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Author Topic: Discussion The nature of love

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Discussion The nature of love
OP: June 14, 2010, 07:58:54 AM
What is love?
When we fall in love, there are hormones involved, but also cultural ideas of love that we project onto our loved one. We have an idea of who we want them to be (and who they imagine us to be).
At midlife, we are facing the realities of the lives we have lived, and the people we love and live with. This is problematic for MLCers. Standing for our spouse means we want our spouses back, despite their bad behaviour. Is it because we love them? If we love them, we want the best for THEM even if it is not what we want. This means letting go, supporting, and understanding them.
This is not just a strategy, but a goal. If we are ONLY strategic in whatever we do, we are not being loving, we are avaricious. If we can’t let go, if we beg and plead, it’s because we are listening to OUR needs. We already know that begging is not a good strategy, that letting go, looking after ourselves (loving ourselves) is. What I’m saying is that to truly love someone, we have to want the best for
I am agnostic, but I was brought up Catholic, and I still find a lot in this verse from the Corinthians. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”I suppose this is also the spirit of The Hero’s spouse. What do you think?
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Re: The nature of love
#1: June 14, 2010, 10:00:18 AM
You know, I wrote out nearly a whole essay on this topic, as H had brought it up as a topic for discussion.  I condensed it somewhat -- these are what I considered "talking points"....

It follows on from what you write........

Love is a choice of the heart and mind.  The heart for the feeling -- the attraction and the pleasure.  The mind for the intention, because the heart cannot, by itself, overcome all of the obstacles of everyday life, which can be destructive if you don’t also choose to love.   

Love is a choice because there are many times we don't "feel like" loving.    Real love is commitment to an imperfect person.  We are all fallible, and none of us are really particularly better than anyone else.   But that digresses....

It's a choice because we have free will -- we control our own thoughts, feelings and actions, rather than have them controlled by outside forces.  It's not that we don't sometimes question ourselves, but that again is another topic. 

It is a fallacy to think that it is only fate, because it keeps you from examining your own role -- it is expecting somone else to do the work -- the "if you were perfect I would always feel in love" bit.   

So it follows that love is something you create.   We can waste a lot of time looking for the perfect lover, instead of creating the perfect love. 

This isn't about marriage -- marriage isn't love, it's the promise to love.    Those vows are written like that precisely because there are many times we don't feel like it.    That doesn't mean letting oneself be walked over, however. 

That's when the stuff about putting in the time and effort, learning to ask for what you want, being open, allowing yourself to be vulnerable etc. comes in.    Empathy.  But that's a separate topic or two or three.....


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Re: The nature of love
#2: June 14, 2010, 10:36:13 AM
I have always believed that love is a choice, an attitude of mind rather than just a feeling. We have a role to play in choosing to love, and how to love, as we can choose to accept someone, or not. I also agree that marriage is a promise to love.
However, we don't have completely free will, this is an illusion brought about by the nature of our consciousness. Many of our decisions and and actions appear to be choices, but in reality are made in the unconscious mind which works more on the basis of emotions (through somatic marker mechanisms) than rationality. MLCers behaviour is not rational and controlled precisely because of this. Even when they realise (like my H) that choosing marriage with me would be the most rational decision, their emotions betray them.
What about us? My feelings are to hang on, with the hope that he will come back, and the belief (derived from m unconscious mind) that it could work. Strategically this is not the best option, as chasing chases them away. So my feelings have to be redirected through strategy. Still this is not enough. If I really care for H, I will want the best outcome for him, even if it is not what I want.
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Re: The nature of love
#3: June 14, 2010, 10:41:49 AM
That is a very interesting point about free will.  I'm going to think about this a bit more before I write. 

Also the bit about if we really care for our spouses, we will want the best outcome for them....  I know there is a way to tie all of this together. 

This is an excellent point for discussion, Mermaid -- I'm glad you started this thread. 
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Re: The nature of love
#4: June 14, 2010, 11:27:58 AM
Quote
That is a very interesting point about free will.  I'm going to think about this a bit more before I write. 

My H said in 2008 when he began to go "off the deep end" that he wasn't sure what was going on with him. I said that he should pray for answers. He told me that he had prayed over and over and that God gave free will. He said that because of this he had urges and desires for another life, free of responsibilities, free to do whatever. He seemed to view free will as more of a curse than a benefit....interesting.
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Re: The nature of love
#5: June 14, 2010, 12:49:51 PM
And yet we are not free...
One of the most interesting books I've read on the topic is "Strangers to Ourselves" by Timothy Wilson. He reviews a lot of currrent, and older, theories, as well as adding insights from his own research. Fascinating. I read it cover to cover.
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Re: The nature of love
#6: June 19, 2010, 04:33:38 AM
Apparently we don't have free will. The bible mentions a few that we all know i.e. Pharaoh and the plagues in exodus. Pharaoh hardened his heart for the 6 plagues and God hardened Pharaoh's heart for the last 4.

Then we all know Jonah and the whale and of course apostle Paul and the road to Damascus, just to mention a few.

Also read lots of articles, if you goggle "free will" there is scientific evidence that what we think we have free will it only appears to be.

Mermaid, glad you brought this subject up.
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Re: The nature of love
#7: June 23, 2010, 08:08:01 AM
Changing someone's free will is entirely different than changing their heart. One is a pull and the other is a conviction.
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Re: The nature of love
#8: June 23, 2010, 02:51:18 PM
An excellent book on the subject is "Strangers to Ourselves". It's not about midlife, but it can help us understand how our MLCers seem to be in the grip of something other than rational behaviour.
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Re: The nature of love
#9: June 23, 2010, 05:05:34 PM
The following are my thoughts, and what I've learned throughout my life; they are not intended to influence anyone's beliefs as we each have our own path we follow.

God gave free will to ALL people, as well as freedom of choice that is also related to free will.

We ARE free, regardless of what anyone thinks...we just CHOOSE to do some things and not others; the CHOICES are an important part of free will to do as we CHOOSE to. 

We KNOW there are consequences for our actions, as well as reactions to the choices we make.

We CHOOSE, of our own free will, to serve God, as an example.  He does NOT force us to choose Him; and He does NOT make us love Him...we love Him because He first loved us.

Each person has an array of choices they can make of their own free will, right or wrong...and consequences, good or bad is attached to these choices.

We may BIND ourselves to someone, but, again, that is a CHOICE we made within our free will....we cannot be bound unless, again, we choose to be that way.

We can influence people, in regards to their choices, but we cannot change someone's free will..that is theirs alone.

God can bring about circumstances to influence us, but He will NOT tamper with Free Will that is given to ALL Men.  When God places something in the heart, the mind will usually follow, as in the example of Pharoah....He did this to show His Glory to the Children of Israel, as well as to Pharoah.

That goes back to His ways and thoughts not being ours, as some of this is beyond our understanding, and no matter how we analyze it, we will never see the ENTIRE reason for what He does or allows to happen.

People get trapped within circumstances, because they allow it to happen, lacking the understanding needed to extract themselves out of trouble...fear compounds things, and they forget they have choices they can make to help them out of a situation.

I am a free agent, but I cannot say God did NOT influence me many times during my life..yet, He did NOT MAKE me do ANYTHING..the choices, such as they were, were MINE.

I CHOOSE to serve Him, but I'm NOT BOUND to Him....I made a choice of my own free will.  To do otherwise, will buy me some serious consequences, and I'm well aware of that;  but still, I KNOW I'm free; I always have a CHOICE to make in regards to myself, and no one else.

You have to SEE the freedom, in order to BELIEVE in the freedom...and if you don't see it, you won't believe that you are free to do what you know you need to do and make choices that will help you in that effort...yet, not seeing that freedom of choice, can cause you to continue to feel "trapped" or "bound".

These are MY beliefs, in regards to Free Will and Choices being linked together after a fashion.

You see, even JESUS had a choice, and He chose to die on the cross...He had the same free will, and yet, chose His Father's will toward a way for the greater good....and it affected ALL of us as human beings.

When we make choices, these choices will affect people around us; just like the "ripple affect" that comes from dropping a stone into the water.

Maybe, the loss of freedom spoken of is when you stop to consider the AFFECT of your choices on someone that you care about/love.

And the consequences that would come about if you did certain things, made certain choices...yet, you are free to do whatever you wish.

On the other hand, we KNOW what is right or wrong, and it has been said the exercise of boundaries is selfishness, but there is a lesson, even in that....of selfcare.

In our marriage, for an example of free will; I KNEW my husband could have walked away at ANY time, and I knew I would have to let him go, as I could NOT make him stay.  The interesting thing was this works BOTH ways; as each person has that same power, and it was very liberating for me to realize that I was there because I WANTED to be there, not because I HAD to.....I don't have to DO anything I don't want to do, and neither does he.  What got interesting was when he discovered that I had found my freedom, and he did NOT like that at all...he wanted ALL the power, and found he didn't have ANY over me.

Interesting thread. :)





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Re: The nature of love
#10: June 24, 2010, 08:14:37 AM
I wouldn't want to challenge anyone's beliefs, religious or otherwise. People with faith have a gift that gives them strength in adversity, a sense of support, hope, and destiny that agnostic/ scientific minded folk don't have. Belief in that God shows the path is a way of letting go of the desire to control. Belief in free will means that we reflect on our behaviour. But it’s not the only way to do this.
Social science shows that our choices depend on our perceptions of those choices, as well as our resources (social, cultural, economic, geographic, temporal, etc.) Neurological science and psychological research shows us that our choices are often made at an unconscious level. In other words, we make up stories about WHY we have done some thing after the event. These choices are formed on this unconscious level through our social experience. As we know, our MLCers have often suffered in the past from neglect, criticism, growing up too soon, etc. They find themselves living a life that they reject, and are unable to explain their behaviour. We have no direct access to the unconscious, but we (all of us) can observe our own behaviour, and eventually come to some conclusions about ourselves.
When we love someone, according to Jung/ Hollis and other psychologists, we project our desired image onto that person, which arises from our own life experience. For example, unconsciously we may choose someone who is like our opposite sex parent, and behave to our H in a similar way that we did to our parent (and them to us). This is why, when our spouse is in midlife and may behave badly, both partners need to grow, in order to escape the unconscious behaviour patterns of the past. We don’t just choose our partners according to our opposite sex parent, there are other factors too, plus a set of reactions that we have built to those characteristics
In my case, I chose a perfectionist, who is like my father. My H criticised me in much the same way as he was criticised by his mother. He is intolerant of imperfection, especially in himself, but in me he both carried the burden of duty (and overworked) and built his resentment of me and my inevitable failings (even when they weren’t mine!!) Now his perfectionist mask has cracked, and he can no longer go on with this persona he created. He doesn’t know what’s underneath it.
The interesting thing is that I’ve realised that my behaviour to my H mirrors my behaviour to my father; to appease, to try to please, then finally, when I feel very hurt, to get furious and rebel, while all the time wanting his approval. This is why we must also grow. We must find approval within us, it makes us stronger, more independent and mature.
In conclusion, any free will we have we gain through careful reflection on our own behaviour, within the limits of our own resources.
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Re: The nature of love
#11: June 24, 2010, 09:06:00 AM
A thoughtful piece, Mermaid.
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Re: The nature of love
#12: July 01, 2010, 10:06:18 AM
I thought I would share my thoughts with you on love, based on my reading.
According to writer and therapist Andrew Marshall in “I love you but I’m not in love with you”, there are different types of love. Limerance is the first passion we feel when we fall in love. Loving attachment is long term love, and needs nurturing. Affectionate regard is caring for someone without feeling that their destinies are entwined with ours. When our MLCers say ILYBINILWY, what they mean is they have affectionate regard.
Loving attachment is fed by, physical and emotional intimacy, respect for differences, listening, sharing, generosity, supporting, shared sense of humour, and going the extra mile for your loved one. People get to the ILYB stage because of factors inside and outside the relationship. Inside the relationship are factors such as communication, how a couple resolves conflicts (not arguing is as bad as arguing destructively); how individual objectives and goals are supported, the power balance, the security gained from the relationship and self affirmation used to launch outside projects, how couples are involved in each other’s goals, and whether couples take each other for granted. Outside the relationship are self esteem and self growth issues; projects that one person wanted to achieve and hasn’t (they may see the marriage as the obstacle). (Hormones can play a part, but the andropause exists in less than 2% of the population).
To achieve love, according to Marshall, we must understand what love is, and stages of relationships, argue without being destructive, understand our partner’s language of love, play, and increase intimacy.
Another writer, Jack Ito (psychologist and relationship coach), says our feelings of love are related to: 1) how we behave toward our partner, 2) how we interpret our partner's behaviour, and 3) how well our needs are met.
If the relationship is not dead, he says there are ways of saving it based on what WE do, first of all, and not what we expect our partner to do. He says that the most successful first steps are often learning to earn your partner’s respect and decrease dependency. It is only by working on our goals that we can hope to make our lives significantly better. He suggests the following basic steps:
1. Love extra. Do more for your partner than you need to do.
2. Believe the best about your partner. If you can choose to believe that either your partner is looking forward to being with you or just doesn't care, which belief do you think will help you to feel special?
3. Be sure that your needs are being met. Can you have a smile on your face and love in your heart when you have a thorn in your shoe? Taking care of yourself and having personal ambitions that excite you will make it much easier for you to be in love and will make you a more attractive person for your partner.
4. Set personal goals and challenges that excite you or work with a relationship coach to have a steady stream of personal successes. These things will flood energy into your feelings, your personal life, and your relationship.
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Re: The nature of love
#13: July 01, 2010, 11:50:52 AM
Very interesting. Affectionate regard....never before has that sounded so sad.  :(
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Re: The nature of love
#14: July 27, 2010, 07:41:27 AM
A quick soundbite here... Some people already realise that feelings of love are related to the production of certain chemicals, including oxytocin. There are also psychosocial components, but all feelings and thoughts have to have phsyiological components. (see : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7815095.stm)

There are a number of reasons why these feelings of love may disappear, including chronic stress and burnout. In this case, reducing stress is the key to saving love and marriage: http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-2009-02-13-voa17-68768832.html?rss=united

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Re: The nature of love
#15: July 27, 2010, 12:26:07 PM
Free will is an illusion as Mermaid pointed out.  All choice is influenced and therefore NOT free.  If there were such a thing as free will there would be no need for reward and punishment and the marketing/advertising industry wouldn't exist.

Written over 100 years ago, What is Man is Mark Twain's thoughts on the notion of free will and is as relevant today as it ever was.  It's a short essay that you can read for free online here.  Try to defy the logic.  ;)
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Re: The nature of love
#16: July 27, 2010, 01:20:23 PM
Mark Twain was a very forward thinker, and very insightful. Thanks for the link pexio!

If you want a deep insight into free will, choice and action, try reading: "What is Agency?" by Emirbayer and Misch. I can't give you a free link, because it's still under copyright, but here is a link to an abstract online: http://www.getcited.org/pub/103358155

It's interesting because they thoroughly review all philosophical and sociological accounts and reserach into "agency" (that is, how individuals actively shape some important dimensions of their experience), which is what we would think of as free will.
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Re: The nature of love
#17: August 20, 2010, 07:26:16 AM
Romantic love is a myth; true love is not "falling in love" (which is merely a cathexis) but about the extending of one's ego boundaries to include another, and about the spiritual nurturing of another. True love leads to growth. (M. Scott Peck, psychiatrist, "The Road Less Travelled").

 ‎"Falling in Love" and "passion" are self centred, consumerist notions of love. This is liquid love, love with no bonds, no growth, no change except extinction. Love is thrown away like yesterday's newspaper.
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Re: The nature of love
#18: August 20, 2010, 07:49:05 PM
Mermaid,

Would Narcissism be in that category of being in love with someone in "your own head"? He was actually looking at himself and saw this beautiful person that he was in love with. Was it pure fantasy, imagination or did he really see something that he, himself, manufactured?

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Re: The nature of love
#19: August 20, 2010, 08:28:49 PM
While I found all of your posts interesting, I disagree (lovingly) with your thinking that free will is not free. I think that some might get free will and free choice mixed up. God gave us all free will in that He gave us all choice. We can listen or not listen to God. We can listen to our parents, our educators, our peers, or our spouse. Or we can turn a deaf ear to all of them.

However, we make the choice of what we are going to do; where we are going to go. We might not have it all figured out, but we make that choice rather quickly. If I remember correctly from my college days, we make decisions in about 3 seconds. We might not have all the particulars worked out in our heads, but we tend to lean in one direction within 3 seconds. Then after having more time to consider this decision we need to make, we formulate our plan to move forward.  That's what God has given us. He created us. He gave us brains and expects us to use them. He gave us the free will to make a choice.

Are we influenced by people, our upbringing, our environment? Of course we are! But, we still have free will to make a choice. Our decisions are ours alone. Even if someone has a gun to our head, we still make a choice in what to do. Go along with the gun toting person, or refuse to do what they demand from us and risk being killed. It's still our choice.

This is why I have told my spouse that his actions/ decisions he has made are his to take ownership of. However, I know that I am the reason he made those decisions. He could have chosen differently, but he didn't. And I could have paid more attention to the influence I had on him, but I didn't. I do now.

So, I had to make a choice (my free will to make this choice or not to) to change those things about me that needed to be changed. I had to take an honest look at who I really was. When I went to God and told Him I was a good person, He said, no, not so much. Boy, did that hurt! But, as always, God was right. And over this past year, I have slowly made changes in myself....in the way I think, in the way I react to others, what is important and not so important, what battles I will fight and what battles I will refuse to engage in.

Yes, we people of faith have Someone to go to who helps and supports us. I honestly don't know how anyone lives without that support. For me personally, if I didn't have God, I would have cashed in this life a long time ago.
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Re: The nature of love
#20: August 20, 2010, 11:11:25 PM
To me, I had free will many years ago. I could go to bed when I wanted, I could clean when I wanted to, I could eat all the junk food, and I drank coca cola in the morning and ate ice cream at night. I was free, but I was alone. You give up free will to have a family. Personally the free will wasn't worth the loneliness. Just my humble opinion
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Re: The nature of love
#21: August 21, 2010, 04:54:05 AM
Yes, we people of faith have Someone to go to who helps and supports us. I honestly don't know how anyone lives without that support. For me personally, if I didn't have God, I would have cashed in this life a long time ago.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.  I've traveled both paths and logic and rationality trumps "faith" every time.  I prefer to support myself.  I've been an atheist/determinist a long time and I've endured (as an LBS) as much pain as anyone.  Guess what?  I'm still here.  Different strokes for different folks.
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Re: The nature of love
#22: August 21, 2010, 07:26:58 AM
Pexio,

So is it different strokes for different folks? Or logic trumps faith?

I vote for the different strokes for different folks...since for many logic does not trump faith!  ;D

What I do find so wonderful is that poeple on this forum are so welcoming to both people who are religious and people who are not. That was my vision and desire, but given that I am religious and I include it in my articles and as a part of my Stand--only a part--I have often worried that I would attract strict judgers.

Some of the other communities were that way and they didn't like me...with my hypnotherapy, psychics and challenges to religious discussions...which to me are fun!
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Re: The nature of love
#23: August 21, 2010, 07:46:59 AM
Pexio,

So is it different strokes for different folks? Or logic trumps faith?

  ;D



It's both.  What I should have said is "I've traveled both paths and logic and rationality trump "faith" every time FOR ME.  I'm glad that this board is tolerant of different viewpoints since whatever gives us our answers and gets us through our tough times is A-OK in my book.  Who am I to judge?

But, we've digressed to discussing "freedom of choice/free will".  And so we are making arguments, offering "evidence" to support our assertions.  For me, the argument from authority (we have free will because God says so) is just as frustrating to me as it was when I was a kid and I asked my Mom why I couldn't do or have something and all she said was, "Cuz I SAID so!"   ;)
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Re: The nature of love
#24: August 21, 2010, 09:34:31 AM
I want to go back to Mermaid's first post with the Corithians verse. It was ironic to see this posted because when MLC'er came back for 2 1/2 months he brought that verse over and posted it on my refrigerator. It is still there, I look at it every day. I thank him for that, he does believe in that when he is himself. He told me thath he liked the Corinthians part of the Bible the most, it talks about marraige. He believes in the constituition of marriage as I do. I am not married to him but I have that connection in my head. We had, I still have, that level of connection but I believe we met for a reason but the timing was off. This is a great thread. I too have chosen freely to continue to believe in the process.
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Re: The nature of love
#25: August 26, 2010, 11:54:14 AM
While I found all of your posts interesting, I disagree (lovingly) with your thinking that free will is not free. I think that some might get free will and free choice mixed up.

CK, thank you for your (loving) disagreement. Can you tell me the difference between free will and free choice?

I agree that we can reflect on our options and take decisions. This is what we are doing here; our natural reaction would be to scream at our MLCer/ divorce them / throw the frying pan at them. But it takes a while to realise what our possibilities are and to be able to direct our emotions appropriately. You are right, as well, in that our MLCers have the social and moral responsibility for their actions, as we do too. That is not the same as saying we have absolute free will to choose what we do.

What I wrote was not based on opinion or belief but science. Even in law, there are mitigating circumstances for emotional reactions. In social and neurological science there are many more explanations for our social behaviour which gives far less scope for individual choice or free will than we would like to believe. As we see in our MLCers, they seem unaware of the consequences of their choices, confused, lost. They seemed to be pulled by a number of different things; perhaps the limbic brain has something to do with gravitating towards younger partners; perhaps depression, stress or disease have altered their neurological profile. Early childhood experience and resources will affect their response too, in a way that we can sometimes see more than they can themselves.

It's harder to see ourselves, and to take control of our emotions, although we are trying. That's what this forum is about, with the great support network we have built between us here. In conclusion, our control over out choices and our awareness of them are limited, but our possibilities are increased through the mutual reflection we do here.

Finally, does logic trump faith? I don't think they are comparable. It's like saying one culture is better than another. Faith is a resource (a gift?) that some people use to help deal with life. Logic is another. We use what we can and what we know.
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Re: The nature of love
#26: August 26, 2010, 03:38:58 PM
Would Narcissism be in that category of being in love with someone in "your own head"? He was actually looking at himself and saw this beautiful person that he was in love with. Was it pure fantasy, imagination or did he really see something that he, himself, manufactured?

Sorry, Agape, just saw this now. Yes, it comes from the myth of Narcissus. Narcisisitic personality disorder means the person has the need to feel admired, be superior, and shows lack of empathy for others. They are "excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige"
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Re: The nature of love
#27: August 26, 2010, 06:05:47 PM
Are they by any chance lacking these qualities (personal adequacy, power, and prestige),  never had them or those qualities were wiped off during the parental upbringing?

Oedipus was in love with his mother. I wander if those two have something in common, i.e. lacking something from the childhood. And also wandering if the MLC belongs in this group.

Most are not satisfied with what they have and the grass is greener over the fence.
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Re: The nature of love
#28: August 27, 2010, 12:49:12 AM
Are they by any chance lacking these qualities (personal adequacy, power, and prestige),  never had them or those qualities were wiped off during the parental upbringing?

No, generally speaking, narcisists were brought up with too much sense of power, and with parents who overindulged them. The problem for narcisists comes with maintaining this elevated idea of themselves in adulthood. They feel entitled to admiration and criticism makes them enraged.

Narcissists will have problems at midlife, but there will have been warning signs (a tendency to manipulate and a lack of empathy to others).

On the other hand, some MLCers seem to show some narcissistic traits only at midlife. We all have some elements of narcissism (self love), but it is balanced with our empathy. At midlife, MLCers go back to focussing on themselves, so egocentric characteristics in general are more apparent (as in teenagers!)

Oedipus complex is about power and attachment to the opposite sex parent. It is regarded as part of normal psycho sexual development, but normally disappears in early childhood.
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Re: The nature of love
#29: August 27, 2010, 04:48:35 AM

Mermaid, thanks for your answers.

MLCers go back to focussing on themselves, so egocentric characteristics in general are more apparent (as in teenagers!)
Do they come or slip back to this stage in MLC in order to finish the unfinished business? Missed it somehow, delayed adolescence, some traumatic event, i.e. death of a parent, parerental divorce/separation.

Oedipus complex is about power and attachment to the opposite sex parent. It is regarded as part of normal psycho sexual development, but normally disappears in early childhood.
In Oedipus complex to me the stage is arrested and never disappeared. Would some MLCers look for the mather or a father they longed to have, not just statues, but more intimate involvement.
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Re: The nature of love
#30: August 27, 2010, 06:25:33 AM
Lots of things can happen in ML. Jungian analysis focusses on the idea of finding one's authentic self, as if individuals were living out the expectations of others until ML. So if they had pushed aspects out of sight and behaved according to social expectations, they would have to deal with whatever they hadn't faced before or pushed out of consciousness. This includes loss, abuse, a lack of parental nurturing, traumatic events, growing up too fast, etc. But they face these as experienced adults, not as children with little control over their world. Control is vital.

However, not everyone is sucessful in overcoming childhood traumas. Emotional neglect can leave a lifetime of disaffection. I don't think it happens in any simple way, like looking for the father they never had, and it depends too on their capacity to reflect, understand and accept their past and present.

Play in humans and primates is an important way of discovering possibilities and increasing flexibility, and the replay of MLCers mimics this as an attempt to explore their world. The MLCers focus on themselves and their discoveries until they are able to integrate their authentic self in the adult world around them.

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Re: The nature of love
#31: August 29, 2010, 03:11:18 PM
This includes loss, abuse, a lack of parental nurturing, traumatic events, growing up too fast, etc

Mermaid, thanks for describing this so precisely but concisely at the same time. It would have taken me ages to do the same.

What about marrying too young and never have explored the world first? Then children, job and family and then again "death" knocking on the door and they panic. But I don't think they can make up for the missed boat. It's all water under the bridge. It must be all in their heads thus going into these fantasies and making all "appear" or telling themselves that is exactly what they missed.

Does the subconscious accept these "false" realization, I wander. They probably die deluded, never solving the problem they head unless they confront it head on.

In psychiatric hospitals staff were always advised, never, ever to agree with patients delusions, if one wants to help them. It is so easy to escape, but one has to come back and face their demons otherwise they can stay on their journey for the rest of their lives and that is OK too.

MLCer is on a journey and government, lawyers of course and society, friends and relatives are in full agreement with the MLCer that that is normal. The only "sane" ones are standers but that is a big question mark in the society we live in and that is a pitty.
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Re: The nature of love
#32: August 29, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
What about marrying too young and never have explored the world first? Then children, job and family and then again "death" knocking on the door and they panic.
Cultural expectations have a lot to do with this. There are cultures where MLC doesn't exist, and where people marry young. We are receiving messages all the time about what we should expect from life, and this can feed dissatisfaction, especially where there is a perpetual "youth culture" and "entertainment" lifestyle. Western cultures have lost their sense of passageway through life, in which birth, growth, change and death are inevitable features. Traditional cultures give people narratives and events by which to measure their path through life, their success and failure, and prepares them for death. Modern (Western) cultures are themselves changing so much, losing their stability and are linked to global, economic and technological changes. Consumer culture has transformed our ideas of love and life into something which must thrill us, and then be discarded.
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Does the subconscious accept these "false" realization, I wander. They probably die deluded, never solving the problem they head unless they confront it head on.
The Jungian idea of a false realization means that the person becomes conscious that they are living a life that doesn't belong to them. It arises out of the subconscious, slowly, and people don't always want to accept it is there, or know what they need to change to make their life meaningful.
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In psychiatric hospitals staff were always advised, never, ever to agree with patients delusions, if one wants to help them.
Psychiatric treatment changes all the time. There is one school of thought that communication can be achieved through the patients' medium, that is, by validating what the patients feel and how they communicate.
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The only "sane" ones are standers
Sanity only depends on where you are standing. Insanity is outside the parameters of social normality. We are insane to some people because we tolerate MLCer behaviour, while society tells us to reject it. MLCers seem more acceptable now because of the type of liquid, changing society that we live in. But this same changing society causes more confusion and more MLC.
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Re: The nature of love
#33: August 29, 2010, 05:23:22 PM
God help us, especially our children and grandchildren. Moving further away from reality by the day and we call it "progress".

Is there any chance that eventually we will be "zombified"? I like Scott Peck's title of the book "The Road Less travelled" which reminds me of the bible verse, wide is the road to perdition.

Thanks again Mermaid for such a profound explanation of all this that is happening right around us, yet I was never aware until it happened to me but it was going on for thousands of years.
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What is Love?
#34: September 02, 2010, 07:32:47 AM
This is something I've given a deal of thought of since I was given the 'ILYBINILWU'.  To this day I really don't understand it (ILYBINILWU), and in my view I think it's over used.  To me, you either love someone or you don't. I don't mean that to sound so black and white.  My Mum always told us that if you couldn't tell someone you loved them, then you didn't.

I also think the word love is overused these days - has it lost it's true meaning?  How can you fall out of love with someone so quickly, switch your feelings on and off like a light, unless of course love wasn't really there in the first place.

From my own experience - arguments, anger, upset, hormones - have got in the way of how you feel about your Partner (how any times have we told our Partners during that time we don't like them, want out etc..) but it doesn't last long. 

When my Dad died my feeling got buried and I was too consumed with grief to consider anything else.  I was always leaving, tellling him often that I'd made a mistake, didn't like him, we were so over etc., I wanted to hurt him, sometimes I hated the sight of him, nothing he could do was right, I wanted to push him to a point of no return and leave me, but all I did was hurt myself in the process.  (Please don't think badly of me, I wasn't in control of my emotions at that time and had never experienced losing someone so close to me).

What do you think?


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Re: What is Love?
#35: September 02, 2010, 08:52:44 AM
It's a good question, and I don't think there is a simple answer. It means different things to different people. I don't think it's lost its true meaning, because words never have true meanings, especially words with complex interpretations.

I have an idea of what love is, which is to do with the selfless care for people, not a passion or infatuation; it's more than a feeling. But that's my idea.

We discussed the nature of love some time ago:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=127.0

These threads are now merged.
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