[Helpnewc]

Dear Colleagues,

Thanks for your kind messages in my last thread.

I am glad I tried hard. I will never understand what happened but our Australian Prime Minister’s comments about the end of his marriage continue to help me. He said I will never understand it but I have to accept it.

I will never understand where my beautiful, kind, empathetic wife disappeared to. For so long, I thought she was still in there but she is gone. I will never understand it but I accept it.

But I don’t accept her taking my kids. And although it is hard, I will have to trust the process. Because if I consented to the present arrangement I could not live with it. If some federal magistrate sticks it to me, well I will accept that but I won’t have consented to it.

But how I miss her and my old life. But I will forge a new one. I will also continue to be the better person I now am.

And how I wish I did not love her. But I do. And that’s ok.

[Baxter1]

Help-
How can you not still love her? Sounds like you have a good attitude of acceptance. There is something to be said about how this changes you. You become stronger and more in touch with yourself, and that’s not a bad thing.

[MadLuv]

I think that is the number one acceptance is to understand that they are no longer the same person and you also will never be the same. It is the heartbreaking realization to acceptance, yet the one thing when understood makes acceptance a little bit easier.

[mama4]

Your insights are assisting me in framing the love I had for MLC and what that love feels like now.
You love her still because your love was what it is meant to be, unconditional. Not everyone has that capacity for love.
My love will always be my love but I have arrived at a healthy space of detachment so that I can be protected and have a firm boundary. Understanding the love for myself was a most important part of this journey.

[Helpnewc]

Hi, it’s been a while.

It has all been pretty hard. The property settlement has been filed and in about a month I will refinance the house. It is pretty financially devastating but my earning capacity is significantly greater so it was always going to hurt. Rich person problem.

I am glad I chose to be sensible about the cash so I can have the strength for the fight about the girls. I filed the application about a month ago and waiting on the response which will say I am the devil incarnate. I think I won’t read the Affidavit.


My children are going very well. We are very close and I have just had them for two weeks. It makes the irrationality of fighting about the 50/50 custody more profound.


But there is nothing rational going on. She has indicated she will tell the girls about her knew man next week. It is funny how hope is so resilient. But I am managing my thoughts and understanding it is her decision.

But I always wonder where she went. She told me when she decided to leave and it was 3 years before bomb drop and over something tiny when I corrected a word when my daughter was learning to read apparently. Rather than talk about it she festered on it for 3 years.


But there is little truth or reality. My continued focus is simply obtaining access to my daughters.

I have met someone I like at work but she is in the process of
Leaving her husband. I cannot be that man and I am keeping my distance and asking her to work on her marriage. Her husband is ignoring chances I would have begged for.

But I will continue to survive and try to be a good man. It is all I can do.

[UrsaMajor]

But I always wonder where she went. She told me when she decided to leave and it was 3 years before bomb drop and over something tiny when I corrected a word when my daughter was learning to read apparently. Rather than talk about it she festered on it for 3 years.

This is simply an excuse. If it wouldn't have been that, it would have been something like you didn't vacuum the car correctly or you let the dog get fat or you didn't cook dinner one night  when it was raining and there was a full moon or something else just as non-sensical. Anything they can grasp on to in order to avoid responsibility/accountability for their own actions.....

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Ursa,

I agree it is all a backward looking fairytale to justify behaviour.

[Treasur]

Please don’t, even for a moment, let yourself believe this kind of BS.
No sane adult ends a marriage and upends a family over such small unimportant things.

No LBS here is a perfect human, spouse or parent bc that’s normal, isn’t it? But none of us vowed to be perfect when we got married either. And the false equivalence of these kinds of ‘reasons’ (I call them bagged salad justifications after a story I read when this was the reason given to an LBS, their egregious purchasing of bagged salad obviously warranted an affair, lies, the distress of their kids and financial abuse, right?… ..) compared to the actions our spouses took to destroy their marriage, usually beyond repair…..

I could give you even now a pretty long list of my xh’s flaws as a far from perfect human or spouse lol. Yet strangely, I never considered ending my marriage over them or having sex with someone else as a way to address them. I’m obviously a bit weird….i tended to choose conversation or a bit of tolerance for difference first. 

It just isn’t about you. It is her choice, made for her own reasons whatever they are.

You did not cause it, you would not have chosen it and you probably could not have stopped it happening. In a normal marriage, or even a long term friendship, we accept that none of us are perfect and that people may do things that annoy or disappoint us, that there are fun times and not so fun times, but we choose to see the good way more often. That’s a choice too, isn’t it? At some point, our spouses chose to start doing the opposite and that’s on them. And often - although it would have been possible even if you wanted to end a marriage to behave with kindness, grace and decency - that’s not what MLC types do. They burn down the house and then keep setting fire to anything left in the rubble. Often while acting as if you set the fire lol. It’s a strange thing to witness and exhaustingly painful to be running around the rubble trying to put all the fires out, isn’t it?

I susoect that’s why, for many of us, although we never imagined we would choose it, there can be a sense of relief when they leave, when we only need to have very limited contact or exposure to them, and even when the legal messes are finally resolved.

This was never your choice (or mine), but we have to live through the consequences of someone else’s choice anyway….but we don’t have to listen to any BS and we don’t have to deal with it in the way that suits them best. Bc choices naturally come with consequences for departing MLC spouses too…they just work hard to avoid that reality or paper over it for a while…but the normal cause and effect of life shows up for all of us eventually, doesn’t it? So both parents end up having to lose some time with their kids, or having less money, or living differently than they used to despite what MLC folks like to think lol. Ending anything big may bring you new things you value, but it also inherently involves some level of loss. For a while, we LBS probably just see the loss not the good things that come further down the line, whereas the MLCer is probably the opposite.

The MLCer often looks like the Hare, and the LBS the Tortoise….but often the good LBS seeds you sow now, as you reshape your life, flower into something lovely given a little time. And strangely quite often in stories here that is just about the point when the MLCers reality starts to bite and look a bit less shiny even to them, let alone to us.

Keep going. There is an other side to this….it just takes a while to get there.

[Helpnewc]

Thank you both.

You are right. I find the avoidance of consequences hard but time will do its work.

[Helpnewc]

I continue to recover from my heart failure. It is odd to go from being healthy to having a chronic health condition. But the tablets are working.

I find it hard not hearing from my children. I struggle with why my former wife won’t just agree to equal custody and we can start our new life. I suspect it is because if I had equal time that does not agree with her narrative that I am the devil.

But slowly we are getting there. I told my daughters that I had asked for equal time and there will be a process. They just said but dad why won’t mum just give you the two days. I just said I don’t know.

She has still not told them about the boyfriend. I suspect that is because she things it may adversely impact on the court case.

I find it hardest that she gets in the way of my girls calling me. It is clear they are afraid too. But they are little girls under pressure and they don’t need pressure from me.


I know I will have to wait 12 months for a hearing. I know she is just buying time. It is just hard.

[forthetrees]

Is that a form of parental alienation?

[Helpnewc]

It is an attempt to.

It is not working.

[AlvinTheMaker]

That must feel horrible within. I wish you strength to endure this stage.

Since she is playing dirty now, you can likely expect more of the same in the future. Right now time is your ally, use it wisely and focus on things that should benefit you in hearing.

Alvin

[UrsaMajor]

Is that a form of parental alienation?

Yes it is and should be documented, especially the coercion part and the not allowing the girls to talk to their father via means of fear. That will NOT go over well in court.....

[Baxter1]

Thoughts and prayers your way, both with the trial and the heart condition.

[Helpnewc]

So we were in Court Monday with my application to get more time with the girls. I have basically sought equal time.

She has filed a response seeking that my time gets reduced from 5 days to 3 days. There is no particular basis other than there was conflict between us in the early days. That is true when I was in shock and it was merely text messages.

I have been spared allegations of domestic violence which I know others have had to endure. That never happened but I know it often is raised.

I politely sent an email suggesting that the ongoing parenting battle would damage both of us and offered to settle for 6 days.


I did not get a rejection but I simply got asked for more space and it was suggested I had not given her space. It has been 2.5 years and I have barely seen her. It is just so sad. She is no happier and has blown up her life for no purpose.


I am confident we will get there in the end. I know I did the right thing but it is just so frustrating.

[Baxter1]

H-

So very frustrating! Some people never see their kids, they walk out of their lives and don’t look back. You are trying to be a good parent and fight to see your kids and your running into such resistance, it’s so unfair and unnecessary, thoughts and prayers  your way.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Baxter,

Girls are back with me. They are happy and positive.

They will talk to the Court Psychologist and I think things are better than when they spoke last time. Last time they said equal time. They are more likely to say that than before.

They are just in a terrible spot. I feel for them.

[Helpnewc]

So I have paid the financial settlement and I can start paying off the house again. I am pleased that I have not become on of those angry men that are defeated by the cost of the split. I just keep in mind what I would have paid to have those two girls and all those good years. It was a good deal.

My wife has bought a house spending all of the settlement in one hit. I am hopeful this will mean that she becomes more sensible about custody.  My lawyer thinks once she is spending her money sense will prevail.


I know nothing about the bf. She has not brought up introducing him to the girls again. I am deliberately not finding out as it will do me no good and it is irrelevant.


My girls continue to struggle. They don’t understand it. But we are slowly doing better. I am improving my cooking which in important as my wife is an amazing cook.  I get it from their point of view.

I feel less lonely. And I am lonely for my wife but I also recognise I do not love the person she is now. I know people subscribe to the theory she is still in there but I honestly don’t believe she is. Or if she is she is surprising her at every opportunity.

My health is improving. My heart is back to normal function but I will be on meds for the rest of my life. I am building my confidence up to exercise more.

The custody case will be hard. But the one thing I have learned is there are people that will help you.

[forthetrees]

You sound soooo much better. I suppose that just ending some of the uncertainty plays a role in that. Knowing that what your finances will be going forward is a huge step towards being able to plan realistically. As for the cooking- maybe watch cooking shows with the girls or subscribe to one of those meal delivery services that already has the ingredients and you just follow the steps. I think your girls will look back on your cooking journey with affection and be able to laugh about the flops but also develop some favorite Dad meals because you are approaching it with the beginner´s mind and that means that good surprises await.

[Flummoxed]

Three cheers for Helpnewc!! I agree with forthetrees- you sound great! Keep up the amazing work- no doubt there will be so much fun and joy to come as you continue to experiment in the kitchen. And 100%- there are folks there to help in our more challenging moments. One step at a time, but this was amazing update!

[Biscuit]

Helpnewc,

The cooking for the family aspect, is one I've found really fruitful, it's really great to cook (with or without the kids) then sit down to a family meal. I used to cook a lot before, but now I obviously have to plan every meal when the kids are with me, and it's really fulfilling when we all sit down to eat. I'd suggest making some things that W never did, and make some new family favourites which  are all about you and the kids, rather than trying to recreate stuff that she did brilliantly.... Get an air fryer if you can - they are quick, and easy and healthy!

[Helpnewc]

Thank you all.
It is good to do it together. Involving the kids has helped and I all improve. She is just an excellent chef but my girls now say I have moved to being decent.

I do feel fortunate that when ever I have been overwhelmed help has arrived. Letting go and accepting the help has been great.

I am a much better person than I was. I suspect all of us who go through this tend to be.

Thank you all for your kind words.

[Helpnewc]

To everyone here, old hands, medium hand and newbies I wish you the best for Christmas.

I ended the year with a new piece of MLC gobbledygook. I was told that she does not ignore me, she just says nothing as she feels she gets criticism. I politely pointed out that is ignoring me and it is how we got here.

It remains the strangest experience of my life. And the most instructive one.

But few I wish I did not have to go to Court to get my kids. But wishes are useless things.

Merry Christmas

[Flummoxed]

Merry Christmas, Helpnewc- wishing you the very best as well! I would like to counter by saying wishes aren’t useless- they’re a sign of imagining better times. May better times be manifested in the new year!

[Baxter1]

I wish the best of the season to you as well!

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Baxter.

A tough Christmas. My children’s cousins were up from Melbourne and my wife did not communicate what was happening. So when they came over in New Years Eve and I mentioned they were coming back on Boxing Day my eldest lost it and screamed for 40 minutes how she hated her mum.

I drove them back and got out of my car and was a bit direct with my ex wife. I sounded the horn and asked when after 2.5 years she was going to talk to me about the kids. She turned her back on me and walked away.

I ended up alone at Christmas because I was so stressed and I did not want to drive to my family feeling like that.

I do regret losing my cool. But I struggle more with how she is never accountable for anything she does. At all. I apologised and expressed regret but she does not ever apologise.

[Treasur]

Battles vs War, my friend, is my first thought.

I’m sorry you had that experience and all the feelings that went with it. Not very Ho Ho Ho, is it? I hope that you are feeling better today.

Lots of us here have had a time when the gap between our ex/spouse’s behaviour and our expectations of their behaviour is consistently and relentlessly huge. I’m going to suggest you consider changing your expectations for the simple reason that a) you really can’t control anyone else’s behaviour and b) your current approach is hurting you. Is that fair? Probably not. Is it practical given the evidence you see? Perhaps. Is it doable? Yes, bc a number of us have done it with a bit of effort and practice.

From what I read, you want and expect your ex/wife to communicate with you about a bunch of things including your kids, to acknowledge when she is at fault and to say apologise when she has done something you think is wrong or hurtful. And that is not happening and hasn’t been happening for quite a while. In fact, you feel she ignores you to the point of behaving as if you don’t exist or matter. And if I remember rightly, she has been consistently trying to reduce your time with your kids and you are going to court to secure that. Fair summary?

What if you stopped expecting anything different? Thought parallel parenting instead of coparenting, and focused on the court case? Started assuming that she will ignore you and not provide information and will never apologise, so start to believe there is very little point in communicating your feelings or wishes at all? Or indeed speculating about why or thinking you can do or say anything that will change her behaviour? If you started to assume that any contact beyond your basic legal obligations and facts like drop off/pick up times was a waste of breath?

What would you do differently in your situation if you radically shifted your mindset and thus your expectations? If you approached things as they are, as opposed to how they you think they should be or want them to be? If you created ways to work round her as opposed to trying to work with her, and modelled that kind of calm detachment for your kids too? That not everything in the world is about her 😝?

We talk a lot here about detachment and usually the essence of that imho is a process of letting go of our expectations of different behaviour than we are seeing. And consequently freeing ourselves from that rollercoaster of thinking we should get x when we actually get y, and all the inferences we make from that and how it makes us feel. If only bc hitting our heads repeatedly against the same brick wall tends to use quite a lot of energy and get a bit tedious after a while lol.

What if you stopped? What would help you to stop? What would the result of stopping be for you and your kids?
Worth an end of year muse perhaps as setting up some new goals for 2025……..if only bc most of us LBS learn the hard way that doing more of the same usually generates much the same, and that we really can only change our behaviour and approach if we don’t much like how things are. That’s a tough life lesson for most of us, but still can be a helpful one! Jmo of course!

[Reinventing]

And consequently freeing ourselves from that rollercoaster of thinking we should get x when we actually get y, and all the inferences we make from that and how it makes us feel.

Yes, unfortunately it's not fair, and yet is freeing in the end.

Sorry Helpnewc, tough thing to go through.

[MadLuv]

Don’t feel bad for losing it. We all have. It’s hard to handle all the insanity and when you have kids and it’s just not you that is a concern it can make you insane. Thank goodness for us it is temporary and A result of what we are being put through.

I wanted to add from an earlier post where you put
My lawyer thinks once she is spending her money sense will prevail.
My mother left when I was 14 for an affair. She took very little with her, but she did spend all her settlement on a house and then had to go back to work after decades of not working. She got fired a few years in and we believe she was taking money from her retail management store position. She then wrote my father a letter asking to get back together for the kids. She was still with the affair partner who she remained with until her death, but she realized life wasn’t what she thought it would be. My dad never read the note and threw it away with no response. It was 10 years after she left and we were all married . Crazy!!

So, you never know when they will figure it out. Could be tomorrow, next week, next year or a decade later. Keep moving forward and let her live with her bad choices.

[Helpnewc]

Thank you all.

Treasur you are right.

Hope is tenacious. I have this need for the loving, kind person to emerge in some way but you are right those expectations are unhelpful.

I will try and put them aside. They are unrealistic and artefact of a past that is now gone.

I have waited for some accountability for 2.5 years. I need to set that aside too.

I remember when this first started and I could not believe it could take so long. I now know that all the old hands are right. This thing takes years.


I will try to do better. It is all I can do.

[Treasur]

Please don’t feel that you have failed or that it’s a ‘do better’ thing. I’d bet that every single one of us here, me included, found that those expectations hung around for much much longer than we might ever have imagined. And it usually doesn’t help to beat yourself up when you already feel a bit beaten up by life or someone you loved. And tbh these ex/spouses don’t just no longer behave like the old version we expect, they often don’t behave in ways we expect normal reasonable adults to behave even adults who no longer want to be married to us. It’s reasonable to hold those expectations in normal life - it’s just that they stop working so well in these kinds of situations. The fault imho is not in having the expectations….it’s more about how we adapt eventually to cut our coats according to the cloth we experience.

Imho it’s not so much a do better - bc it really isn’t about us - it’s more of a do different. More about adapting to external change in our lives than correcting anything we’ve done wrong. You did not cause this, it isn’t your fault but you also can’t fix it. Only adjust to it - and tbh that’s hard too, at least initially. It’s a big life change and a big loss. Sometimes I think we hang on to hope bc the loss feels too big to swallow down in one gulp, so we do it in stages when we can. To do that, I think we have to kind of honour the grief we feel, find some way to accept the reality of the loss rather than waiting for it all to be unlost, if that makes sense. And that usually starts with small steps imho.

But there is nothing wrong with you that wasn’t also wrong with me and others here - life got blown up and we have to find our own way in our own time to adjust to that. To a different way of living. I remember it being a comfort to me that grief is the other side of love - that if what you’d had before had not mattered to you so much or been so significant in your life, it would all be so much easier, right?

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Treasur,

I am not beating myself up.

2.5 years later and I am still in shock.

The whole thing is bizarre. I will just keep on keeping on.

I appreciate your wisdom.

[Helpnewc]

My children have gone away with my wife for 8 days.

It is quite hard as she frowns on them contacting me so they don’t. The poor kids are in such a difficult position and I don’t blame them for not contacting me. But it is a long time to not hear from your kids and it is not a cruelty I would inflict.

I guess that is what I struggle with the most. My wife was always kind but she has now become very cruel. I do not recognise this new person. There are occasional bits of kindness but they are fleeting and rare.

You do learn through this process how weak many people are. Her parents say that the love me but they are too afraid to contact me.

The inability of some people to do hard things is striking.

Last night I went to a party where I only knew one person by myself. It was terrifying but I did it. I am not sure I will want to do it again in a hurry.

The damage to our sense of self is quite extraordinary. The way back from being gaslit into thinking you were the devil incarnate is challenging. But you slowly recover and realise you still have some value.


But the person you loved most attempting to destroy you is difficult and impossible to understand. But the trick for me has been to stop trying to understand and to merely accept.

[Flummoxed]

You do learn through this process how weak many people are. Her parents say that the love me but they are too afraid to contact me.

The inability of some people to do hard things is striking.

So unbelievably relatable, Helpnewc. I’m so sorry you’re going through this; please know you are not alone. It’s astounding to say the least, but it does not impact your worth at all. There are many who will simply go with the status quo because that is what makes them feel safe. That’s all it is (at least that’s what I’m telling myself).

Kudos on going to that party! It can be a lot, but you did it! Who knows, maybe next time you’ll be more open to trying again as you’ve conquered it already once before.

Remember that you do not have just some value- you have immense value. There is only one you in the universe; what a wonder you are. The MLCer tries to destroy you, but you’re living your life and embracing it. At the end of the day, they attack because they feel horrible about themselves (even if they don’t realize it). Don’t let anyone make you feel smaller than you are- you’re doing brilliantly.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Just a different perspective on your situation,

The MLCer tries to destroy you, but you’re living your life and embracing it. At the end of the day, they attack because they feel horrible about themselves (even if they don’t realize it). Don’t let anyone make you feel smaller than you are- you’re doing brilliantly.

and

But the person you loved most attempting to destroy you is difficult and impossible to understand. But the trick for me has been to stop trying to understand and to merely accept.

The MLCer isn't trying to destroy your life- they are trying to destroy their life. You are just collateral damage. Since you are the biggest part of the MLCer's life, your are the biggest obstacle to be removed. Consider it a "life bankruptcy" or a restart to go back and remedy the traumas and issues that were in place long before you came along. Remember, she doesn't hate you- she despises what you represent, the very life she want to make disappear.

You can't fix this not can you explain it either. Friends and family can't explain either, but we've all been conditioned that there must have been something that the LBSer did to make the MLCer act this way. Same reasoning when a partner has an affair. Blame both parties and try your best to treat everyone fairly- whatever that means. Hard to rationalize the irrational isn't it?

The damage to our sense of self is quite extraordinary. The way back from being gaslit into thinking you were the devil incarnate is challenging. But you slowly recover and realise you still have some value.

Yes, that is why I feel that the MLCer has a journey to recover their self, and the LBSer's journey is one of recovery and moving forward. That's why you are here and you do post words of great value. Continue to post your story and know that one day, they will help someone else who needs your support.

Happy New Year,

(((Ready)))

[Flummoxed]

Ready, thank you for the clarification! You’re completely right; they don’t hate us- they hate themselves and we’re just collateral damage because of what we represent. Trying to remember this- it’s still painful but it’s definitely the perspective one needs to retain.

[Helpnewc]

The lies are hard. I know they are part of this.

I had not heard from my daughters for 6 days. This always happens when they are with my wife. She alleges she asks them to call and maybe she does. And they are kids. They get busy.

So I gently sent a message on our parenting app indicating that I had not heard from the girls and I instantly got back a strange message saying there was no service and despite there being no service she had been asking them to call. The two don’t go together.


And of course, they don’t ring when they have service.


I do struggle with it but realise that all I can do is keep doing the right thing with my girls when they have them and it does make me realise I have to keep pressing to get equal access given the lack of contact when they are away.


But it is hard. And strange. And nowhere I ever expected to be.

[Helpnewc]

Also I wanted to ask is it common for MLC people to be unable to deal with decisions and the reality of running away?

My wife just keeps kicking the can down the road and can’t face the consequences. She is desperate to believe that what she has done has no impact on our children’s well being.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Also I wanted to ask is it common for MLC people to be unable to deal with decisions and the reality of running away?

My wife just keeps kicking the can down the road and can’t face the consequences. She is desperate to believe that what she has done has no impact on our children’s well being.

As I posted before, they don't care because they are seeking happiness. That's why they can empty out an entire life savings to have a fling with a loser and defend it by stating. "It's my time now." Any objections or confrontations by the LBSer, family, or friends simply means that the LBSer, who stands in the way of the MLCer's new life, has manipulated everyone against the MLCer. In fact, the MLCer will tell family and friends to either join her side or be out of the picture as well.

As far as kids? They just want Mommie happy and they will be just fine.

I am so sorry that you are in this situation and from what I have read, she has projected a lot on you and a lot of gaslighting as well. My ex said I was an "almost emotional abuser" and she was afraid that I would attack her on courtroom steps on the day our divorce was finalized. First of all, if any one was abused, it was me as she was having her affair in front of my face. When she told me about her court room fears, I calmly told her that I would never spend the rest of my life in jail over her. Kind of hurt her feelings, but the truth does hurt.

Final note, I spent over one year to get the court to sign our retirement separation order because she would not sign it at all. This benefitted her and had something happened to her or I, the entire retirement would have gone through probate. Even the judge was confused. After I finally got everything signed and notarized and submitted. My ex actually called me and thanked me. Really? She couldn't sign a document and have it notarized and sent back so she could take my retirement.  So just know I feel for you.

Just document everything and know that when the kids are with you or your ex, the other parent should some contact with the children and that trying to keep the kids from the parent could be seen as abusive and harmful to the children.

I do hope things get better for you,

(((Ready)))

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Ready,

It is so odd. I pushed and the girls rang me today when they came home after I pushed and asked if there was an issue with service still. It felt a bit cheeky but I have had it.

It was lovely to talk to them. It is clear they are worried about their mum and that is why they don’t contact me. They said they missed me.

She lectured me about how nice it was not to hear from me and have messages that make her feel terrible. The lack of any accountability is extraordinary and I just said I did not think make was terrible just mistaken about our marriage.


Obviously, on some level they do know what they are doing is terrible but they need to run run run.

[Helpnewc]

It is nice to be home. To sit with the cat. To trim some hedges.

And to realise that the madness that has descended upon you can simply be checked out from. It is such a journey to let go. To realise that the story that is now being told is untrue but immovable. It is quite challenging to let go of rationality and to realise that when your wife says the sky is purple no amount of discussion will turn it to blue. Indeed, in arguing the toss you must prove to your wife you are the controlling, non listening monster they desire.


The what the moments are powerful. My youngest has a disorder that has some cosmetic surgery done when she is 8. She is now 7.5. I have been speaking to her about it and she is not keen but I thought we should go to the specialist clinic so she can make an informed decision.


When she was 4, my wife was worried about her going to school and being bullied. She found some crack pot surgeon who would do it when she was four. It was a really difficult conversation as she was being a loving mum but medically it was too soon. She really got angry with me about it when I suggested we should delay.

Anyway, today she denied that she had ever wanted to have the surgery. She said I had categorically lied to her in suggesting that she had wanted it.

In a way, it was a kindness as it made me realise she is not all there. But it is disconcerting and I was grateful for my journal that confirmed I was not misremembering a difficult time.


But saying goodbye to the person you loved is really hard when the body they inhabited is still alive. But she is not there. And there is still the rage even though she has left, got the money and most of the kids.

It does tell me that it is not me. There is something wrong. There is also no will to look at yourself and all the problems are external. It is terribly sad but the advice to withdraw, look after yourself and leave them to the crisis is very sound.

And as hard as it is, it does take a very long time. I railed against the time lines of 5 to 7 years. But I am 2.5 years in and we are in a milder replay (or running away) but it is still going on.  And the hardest part there is nothing I can do.

Nothing but look after myself. Realise it is who she is right now and look after myself.

I am not ready to give up hope. But perhaps there is a more neutral position of just getting on with things. But it is the hardest thing I have ever done. I accept I have probably also been a bit mad at times but this person has a very low capability to deal with the real world.

[amazinglove]

“But saying goodbye to the person you loved is really hard when the body they inhabited is still alive. But she is not there.”
— I felt this in my soul. Thank you for saying that,
As awful as this is it is comforting to know that we are not alone in this. In addition to alll that you said- My H seems to have mentally deteriorated too: spelling words wrong/ becoming overly angry and irrational with anyone and everyone/ forgetting every single conversation - genuinely surprised to hear things he’s been told 2 or 3 times before.
I don’t know how that piece fits with their change in character but it’s there at least in my case. I wonder if you (or others) have seen that too?

[Baxter1]

H-

I’m glad you are not giving up hope. I agree, it’s like a shell of who they were. I get an occasional glimpse of the original her, then a couple days later monster comes out. It is nice to have milder replay. Mine is home now, this time a year ago she would have been gone for days.

Keep on keeping on, Happy New Year 2025

[forthetrees]

Your words:  But saying goodbye to the person you loved is really hard when the body they inhabited is still alive. But she is not there. And there is still the rage even though she has left,...

This so true. I just don´t get the rage part bc they have gotten what they want- to ditch the spouse and yet their anger carries on. I am relieved that you now see that it isn´t you but oh my it takes so long to reach that point. Not saying that the LBS has no flaws but am saying that the LBS flaws do not rise to the level of meriting this situation.

Even though time is a human invention, take advantage of the psychological space for a new start in 2025 and allow it to be a year of healing and growth.

[xyzcf]

The beauty of this website is that we can all relate to what you are saying. Somehow, it comforted me to read other's talk about the complete change in the person they loved and also, even though we could see this change as being real, how difficult it was to actually accept this new reality.

It's not fair....you have children and are not given the chance to be involved much in parenting them...all this loss, loss of spouse, of family of time with our children destroying what was once a good life, one that we enjoyed and loved.

Yet, we must move beyond but we are also allowed to grieve what we lost...for as long as that takes.

I used to think that if they could change so drastically and so suddenly into this new persona, that they could also change back...I did not think it could be "permanent" so there was always hope for the person he was to return. Eventually I was able to accept that this is who he is now and in my case, am fortunate that we remain in contact and can have family time together.

The healing for me came when it was recognized that I was suffering from "trauma"..our whole lives were blown apart and we did not get any say in any of it...so it is reasonable to look at PTSD as a possibility of the awful feelings that we have as much as we try to move forward.

A  therapist that specializes in treating trauma is what I needed to become "unstuck" and to feel joy again...for many years I knew what joy was but could not feel it.

Continue to share your thoughts and feelings here..in this strange cyber world, you are among friends.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Amazing,

Yes, she is quite low functioning. But it tends to be compartmentalised and mainly be with me. She manages better at work and has reconnected with her family. They have been forced to support her as she was cutting them off. But she forgets things. And I have asked four times and then she drops off the wrong thing.

Xycf, I agree. I spent ages thinking she ‘was in there somewhere” but I have come to realise that is no longer the case. I don’t think it happened as quickly as it appeared. I think she withdrew, internalised, started to view me in a way and this new person grew internally and developed up until bomb drop. I think that is why she finds it so difficult when  I do things that are kind and demonstrably do not fit with the story that is being told about me. I do believe that she knows what she is doing is wrong in some level and that it makes it hard for her.


So that is why she runs. Facing it all is too hard. It is easier to run from your husband or partner. But the problem is it isn’t. The problems are still there.


Which is why I agree that the best theory is to let them get on with it. Most won’t come back because of pride and shame and the damage they have caused. But any intervention by you is a waste of time. There is nothing rational going on.


And I also accept that I have been irrational in my love for wife. But I have decided to be rational and just focus on getting things right so I can get my kids as much as possible and create a stable life for them.


But how I wish she had not withdrawn, created this version of me and talked to me about how she was feeling.  Unscrambling an egg is a hopeless task.

But trying to understand it does not make it easier. Acceptance is the key.

[Helpnewc]

And Baxter, hope you are doing a bit better since you moved out.

I find it harder but easier.

Help

[Flummoxed]

I just wanted to say thank you so much for sharing your updates- they are so relatable. It truly is such a journey letting go, to accept that the person we loved is not operating the physical body we associate with them. So thankful for this forum and for reading updates from folks going through the same thing. You’re doing brilliantly.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Flummoxed.

I do not feel like I am doing well really. But slowly I am realising this strange existence of handovers and counting days is our how my life will be.

I over 2.5 years later I am still in shock. And that anyone would choose this life rather than work on repair is still difficult to comprehend.

But I just accept it and make the best of it.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I have been working on a reply to your posts and I hope I can help you not only understand the situation, but also try to help you gain clarity into your own perspective and how possible your greatest strengths are becoming detractors that are keeping you from truly detaching from her and her issues.

I've gone back and read your post and it hits several notes that seem to be reoccurring themes in the MLC world. For example, your ex with her constant lose-lose situation. You wanted to give her space and time with the girls and she got upset with you for not being there. Trust me, had you been there, she would have complained about crowding them and once again being controlling. See, you can't win and my ex did the same for me. My ex always called them a test and I would fail every one of them.

The other thing that strikes me was the idea that you were unavailable as you worked very hard. I was in the same situation. I worked six days a week and long hours as well. I also finished my MA and my administrative credential. All of this while she stayed home to be with our kids. That extra income helped pay for dance lessons, piano lessons, singing, acting, and college tuition so she could obtain her degree. Then later, she claims I kept her from a career and made her stay home. Really? While I helped you write your papers so you could get your BA? You need to stop letting her drive the narrative in your head. As you worked the long hours and dealt with all the issues at work, was everyday a day in Disneyland? I don't know about you, but work is hard and part of leadership is the commitment to making sure the job gets done. I am sure there were many nights that you wished you were home with the kids. However, in order to provide, you sacrificed your time so that they could have the things they needed, including having mom around. If you really want to see the hypocrisy of her, remember that she is taking half of what you earned through all of that hard work. Imagine what she would have bought if you settled for a minimum wage job and drifted between them with long stints of unemployment.

So, let them rewrite history and do the things that help them justify their actions. Just as long as you keep your Teflon shield on and move forward. Remember, you are a hard worker and even though she has failed on all of her commitments, you haven't. You continue to fight for your children, you've made changes so that you can still support them and be successful at work. There are many people who would have thrown in the towel and fled. Trust me, the courts are filled with child support arrears and unpaid alimony. I made all of my payments and made all of them on time. I feel that you are a responsible person as well. From my perspective, keep working hard and continue to focus on your priorities.

But saying goodbye to the person you loved is really hard when the body they inhabited is still alive. But she is not there. And there is still the rage even though she has left, got the money and most of the kids.

This is why you need to post is how effectively you summed up MLC in a nice tight package. This is all perplexing. The sudden changes and trying to deal with the hostility. It comes across as if they are the victim. Just remember, this is all an inner battle within her personality makeup. What frustrates a person more than not getting what they want? Getting everything you want and still feeling terrible. She rages just to rage and you are just a really convenient target. And what makes it even better is that you react to her hits. Why? Because you are a problem solver. If there is an issue, you analyze, reflect, and take action. You listen to her, and try to fix the issues. Of course, you are frustrated that she doesn't see the changes you've made. She doesn't care. That may sound callous, but a MLCer is a self-centered mindset and it is all about her pain- not yours. If you were on fire, would you really care that I had to skip lunch?

Her sister is coming up from Melbourne. She has done the same thing to her husband. Cosmetic surgery. All his fault. Exactly the same but with a physical affair and drugs.

This nugget really struck me. Divorce has impact on the entire family and the sister dynamics can be hard to understand. Were they very close? Does addiction run through their family? I am of the strong belief that most of her issues and problems have nothing to do with you, but past trauma and issues that have remained unresolved for years. Maybe I am wrong, but your wife and her family may not stick to commitments in the same manner as you do. In my situation, her family had many problems and one of them was telling the truth.

Not saying that the LBS has no flaws but am saying that the LBS flaws do not rise to the level of meriting this situation.

Absolutely, show me the perfect person and I will show you the perfect fool. We all have faults and some of the faults that our spouses found enduring in the beginning can become issues in the future. Our lives and situations evolve overtime. I am positive that your wife worked hard supporting you and your children. Mine did the same as well. I really feel that as we grew together as a family, we became more distant as a couple. That doesn't make one a monster, its just a person trying to navigate life. I have met a few LBSers in real life and all have been friendly, decent people. Not one thing wrong with them. Just ordinary people that got sideswiped in the middle of going about their lives.

I over 2.5 years later I am still in shock. And that anyone would choose this life rather than work on repair is still difficult to comprehend.

But I just accept it and make the best of it.

Because my friend, she is better at quitting than you are.

Have an awesome day,

(((Ready)))

[Reinventing]

You need to stop letting her drive the narrative in your head.

Yes.

While we all realize things about them and ourselves in our past relationship that could have been better, we also realize that the MLC narrative is centered on them and their dissatisfaction with themselves. The problem is that they blame outwards and we are one of the easiest and most convenient targets.

A problem with hearing their blame is that we then take mental energy to process it. It may help to come up with some mantras that you repeat to yourself in your head (and outloud when alone) when you replay those words or when she sends new words your way.

MlCer: "You worked too many hours"
LBS: "I provided security and opportunity using my strengths"

Consuming their garbage wears on our mental systems and so mental shields and coping strategies can help alleviate some of that burden of the mind churning and churning over what was said.

[Helpnewc]

Thank you both. You are wise and I agree.

As to the sisters, they were close and something happened in that house. It is just uncanny how similar their paths have been .

I am slowly doing better. She is making that easier by behaving how she is.

Thanks again.

[Helpnewc]

Just some journaling.

It really is tough. But it does get better. I spend a lot of time talking to my ex brother in law whose wife did the same as mine about 18 months later. It is hard watching the same thing unfold and recognising how hard it is for detachment to occur and for hope to die.

And seeing the whole machinery that exists to allow people to run and to not work on things. How it is easier to just agree with a false narrative. To see how weak people really are.

I find it distressing that my wife is fighting to take the girls from me. That she is disregarding what the family consultants have said. It is quite bizarre to see just how stubborn someone can be. But sadly that is why we have Courts. You can’t make a mad person see sense.

It is interesting to see how people make their own reality. There have been times during this that I wondered if I was made. And perhaps at times I was. But I know now that I am pretty calm and rational.

But it is so frustrating. To see our children have to go through multiple assessments over one day with me. But you can lead a horse to water.

I have done my best. It is all I can do.

[Baxter1]

I’m sorry that you and the kids are going through this. And yes you’ve done you’re best, what else can you do.

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Baxter,

We will get there in the end. None of it makes any sense and you go mad trying to work it out.

I have just tried to be kind but there are such interesting creatures. For some reason, they withdraw, bottle things up and then explode. And the false narrative has to be held onto at all costs to justify the damage.

I have found it hard to manage the frustration of someone standing in front of a boat and saying it is a car. I have learned there is nothing rational and to somehow just be.

But I do wish we could just be like other couples that separate and that I had made some terrible error rather than have tiny mistakes piled into a pile of crap due to a lack of forgiveness.

It is just so interesting from a scientific point of view. The entire lack of accountability and entitlement is breathtaking.

But my girls are doing better. That is the main thing. And slowly so am I.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Hi Helpnewc,

Not sure if you have seen below proverb/story before, but I hope it will guide you on your journey a bit:

"Imagine being bitten by a snake and instead of trying to help yourself heal and recover from the poison, you try to catch the snake, to find out the reason it bit you to prove to it that you didn’t deserve that."

Though at times you may feel like you are not on drivers seat, you still are. Keep making smart choices and you will do well. The less you follow and mix with the "circus", the better you will do.

Take care,
Alvin

[Helpnewc]

Thank Alvin,

That is very wise. I suspect the answer is we can’t believe the MLCer is a snake. But they are and it is hard to work it out.

I will get there in the end. I have faith in truth and time.

[marvin4242]

Thank Alvin,

That is very wise. I suspect the answer is we can’t believe the MLCer is a snake. But they are and it is hard to work it out.

I will get there in the end. I have faith in truth and time.

Alvin’s analogy is a great one. If you are not comfortable thinking of your MLCer as a “snake” in intent remind yourself of this: if a car hits you and breaks all your bones the intent of the driver doesn’t change the fact and consequences of your broken bones.

[Helpnewc]

I don’t have a problem with the snake concept.

It was saying badly it takes a while to realise the person you love has transformed. There is no doubt my wife is now a snake but it really takes time to realise someone can change so much.

[Helpnewc]

Just reflecting. They are so odd.

I was directed to use a parenting app. It is weird and unnecessary but she likes to control things a lot. So I used it for messaging but then she ignored the messages.

So I said I was not going to use it and she could ring me if she wanted or needed anything to do with the kids. All of sudden we have to use the app and she will check it.


It is just weird. She told me the name of the boyfriend which sent for a loop for awhile. I don’t know him but he seems to be a bit of a loser. Which is to be expected.


I am just used to this life now. It is frigging weird and nowhere I want to be but I am used to it. Even the lies.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Hi Helpnewc,

Reading your post I get the feeling you are struggling with hard boundaries. And you being "weaker" partner on setting them up is likely making your life more miserable than it needs to be. Been there, done that - not fun.

Parenting app... Its not something you two negotiate. It is something where any changes should go through your lawyers or whomever is looking over your parenting deal.

Sharing details of new partners, dating etc...Again, how much details you need to know for successful co-parenting? Likely not much besides "I'm seeing somebody", that is all you need to know of her dating life now. Anything else is simply sticking a fork to your eyeball. Why would you stay there and listen voluntarily of name and other details?

If you dont have a list of boundaries (and what happens if they are violated), then you might want to sit down with pen and paper to create some rules you to follow . The goal there is not to control, but to protect your wellbeing on all levels. Now she is running the show and making you have kneejerk reactions in unhealthy ways.

Alvin

[Helpnewc]

Thanks,

I have pretty good boundaries. She just sent me the name in a text.

We have unable to agree to a parenting agreement and have been in Court for a year. It will be another two years as it is accepted there is no risk to our children as I was never abusive.

I think I was just having a moment. It has been the long haul.

I am grateful for your message and will reflect a bit.

[Reinventing]

Hwlpnewec, finding out the name is tough so expect some rollercoaster emotions with that. And when you meet/reference/hear that name regarding other people who have the same name. It can take a long time for that to not be a trigger for some. You'll eventually get to the point you don't often associate it with the boyfriend. That did take me awhile.

[Helpnewc]

Thank you Reinventing

I am doing better than I thought.

It may be the passage of time. Who knows.

And I guess I had to find out at some point.

I am just focussing on being a good man. It is all I can do.

[MadLuv]

My XH OWife goes by my dame name add an A to the end. Let me tell ya. Thats a hard one, but I think no matter how news hits you it’s ok. Acknowledge it and process it. I think the only way through all this mess is to admit what affects us and work through it. Ignoring or dismissing just hits us later in a different way.

[Helpnewc]

The family law system in Australia is delightful.

Despite giving my wife 75 percent of our assets, and paying $50k a year in child support and school fees, she has applied that I pay for the private family consultant for her application to reduce my time with my children from 5 days to 3 days.

I am trying to just get on with things but is quite difficult. I can only try to be a good father.

[MadLuv]

I’m so sorry. I will never understand how they dont think through the chikdren aspect. It’s all so selfish.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I can't figure out the system either. I spent almost two years creating, writing, and getting a Qualified Domestic Relations Order so that she could get part of my retirement. She would not sign anything. I had to get a judge to sign off on it which was another motion and appearance in court. All of this work so she could get a part of my retirement. Nine years of work. It was like building the plank that you were going to have to walk.

I don't know child custody in Australia and even in the US, the laws vary from state to state. However, they all try to keep both parents involved with the children. To help you bring balance to your argument, you may need to be prepared to go after her judgment and her ability to provide a stable home for the children. Afterall, has she introduced the children to OM? Doing so quickly can have a huge adverse affect on the children as they are trying to cope with the divorce and now have to navigate a new relationship. Also, a new male in the household is more likely to abuse the children.

If you are going to introduce this in court, you have to be careful that the court understands that this is in the best interest of the children. You don't care one bit about your ex's dating life-unless it adversely impacts your children. I would argue that they need to be with you more, so she can have the time to figure out her relationships and can provide a stable home.

You are in a fight and she is not your ally at all. Think of yourself as on a debate team- you want your points to be valid and sound and within the context of what the judge will rule on. Be passionate for your children and calm in regards to her. Please discuss this and any other aspects with an attorney first. I am not a lawyer, not aware of the local laws, and I do not know your judge and all of that factors in when preparing a case.

I really do wish you the best. I have two daughters as well and I had to navigate a lot during the dark years of my ex's MLC.

Keep posting,

(((Ready)))

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Ready, I am well advised.

The main challenge is there is no allegation of domestic abuse or any risk factor for our children. Unfortunately, that means it will take years and she is crafty.

I have decided to go high. Going after your partner tends to be counter productive so I have not done so. I am just a high earning successful male lawyer so the constant narrative is me beating up on a woman who earns less money than me. She feels a lot about control so she sees me wanting to see the girls equally as me being controlling and me not doing what she wants as me having to be right.

I will just have to trust the process and listen to advice.

[forthetrees]

Maybe science helps: https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/closeness-dads-may-play-special-role-how-kids-weather-adolescence

https://understandingteenagers.com.au/the-dad-factor-why-teenagers-need-dads/

[Helpnewc]

Thanks very much.

The research is very clear but nothing rational is going ton. My girls know I want to see them more.

I will just will have to get through it.

[Helpnewc]

The transformation is complete.

My girls both have COVID. They normally would want to be with mum. I said they could stay if they were unwell. She said they were well.

Of course, when I picked them up they are quite ill. But seeing her boyfriend was more important.

The old loving mum I knew would never have done this. It is shocking but consistent with everything I read here.

[UrsaMajor]

The transformation is complete.

My girls both have COVID. They normally would want to be with mum. I said they could stay if they were unwell. She said they were well.

Of course, when I picked them up they are quite ill. But seeing her boyfriend was more important.

The old loving mum I knew would never have done this. It is shocking but consistent with everything I read here.

The big question now is how the kids see it? At some point, they too will realise that mom has lost her $#1T and that you are the stable caring parent.... Then all Hades will break loose as they decide to hang with dad more ..... Of course, that may play right into mom's desire to be doin the mattress mambo with OM but that is not your problem.

Your thing to deal with is being the best stable parent you can be which it looks like you are doing a bang-up job of from the view over here in the cheap seats....

[FrenchHuman]

Hi Helpnewc,

I have two questions. I don't remember how old are your children and I (obviously) don't know the Australian law ; could your children be heard by the judge for your divorce ? Here in France it is possible for children 7-18 yo to be heard by the judge in case of a separation, and their words are taken into account.
And (or?), could you give to the judge a few testimonials (by friends or teachers or family ?) saying that you are a good father taking care of your children ?

That could help your case, your children and you.

[Helpnewc]

Hi all, my girls are 7 and 10.

The girls will express their views to the family consultant for the final hearing. The report is quite expensive, $22,000 AUD but I anticipate the report will simply support a slow increase from 5 days to 7 days a fortnight.

I have given up my big job and now work part-time. I live 2km from my wife and the girls school. The Courts job is to assess risk and it is agreed there are no risk factors so it should just be equal time. I think what is happening is just MLC anger at me and wanting to prove to the world that I am a bad husband that justified doing what she did through a Court judgment.

The difficulty is there is no evidence of that. And I think now she has her house and is wanting to see the bf more she may simply agree on my compromise of 6 days.  There seems to be this breakdown where she has gone against her values but is unable to stop it.


But she is just nuts. I can only focus on being a good dad which is what I do.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

But she is just nuts. I can only focus on being a good dad which is what I do.

That is true on both statements. However, $22,000 is a lot of money for someone to basically state the baby needs to be cut in half. I think you should argue that your were fine with the current custodial arrangement and it was your ex that wanted this report so she should have to pay for it. 

I am happy that my ex is over a thousand miles away and we don't talk at all. Of course my kids are grown and out of college. Read Watcher's thread. OMG!

The system is not always fair. I know you want to take the high road, but you always can't be the one taking the hits. She has to know you can and will throw a hard punch when it comes to the kids.

Have a great day,

(((Ready)))

[UrsaMajor]

That is true on both statements. However, $22,000 is a lot of money for someone to basically state the baby needs to be cut in half. I think you should argue that your were fine with the current custodial arrangement and it was your ex that wanted this report so she should have to pay for it.

It is those mean old nasty consequences of her own actions coming back to haunt her

I am happy that my ex is over a thousand miles away and we don't talk at all. Of course my kids are grown and out of college. Read Watcher's thread. OMG!

The system is not always fair. I know you want to take the high road, but you always can't be the one taking the hits. She has to know you can and will throw a hard punch when it comes to the kids.

Have a great day,

(((Ready)))

[Helpnewc]

Thanks for the advice.

It is my application to increase my time from 5 days a fortnight to 7 days. It is quite frustrating to be honest but she has briefed an inept and bull dog solicitor. There is little I can do but spend the money and be a good dad.

The   Court’s role is to simply ensure kids are no at risk. It is agreed there are no risk factors. So I am not sure why we are fighting other than I want what I want.


I am just trying to get on with it.

[UrsaMajor]

So I am not sure why we are fighting other than I want what I want.

That is the answer in a nutshell... You want it and she want to prevent you from getting it because she hasn't found her "happy" yet either so, if she isn't happy, why should you get what you want?

It is simply another means to try to punish you for the transgressions she has perceived/made up....

But, in the grand scheme of things, trying to figure out why a Mid-Lifer does what they do is like trying to taste green... with your elbow....

[Helpnewc]

So I struggle on.

The latest development is I have been accused of being financially controlling. In circumstances, where I paid for everything and every expense in our marriage and my wife had all of her own money.

And dispute I multi million dollar settlement, my wife says she can’t pay half of a family impact report.

I explained how sad the allegation made me. I got something back about a hedge trimmer.

So sad and crazy.

[Helpnewc]

So despite giving my ex wife a couple of million dollars the family court decided I should have to pay the whole of the $11,000 report to assess where our kids should live. It beggars belief.

It really is difficult as man to negotiate the system. There is this will to believe men are bad for some reason. I try to remain focussed on how well it is going with my daughters which is wonderful.

My wife lied in her evidence about the money she had on hand and as far as I am concerned that is it for me. Lying to me is one thing but lying on your oath is another. I suppose I should not be surprised.

I just can’t work out where my wife went. This creature is frankly unbelievable and that she has so little regard for me amazes me.


I do wish I had not hung in there so long hoping for change. The transformation seems permanent and I was naive to expect a return to the woman I knew. But I suppose I had to go on the journey to get here.


I cannot see myself speaking to her again. I try not to be moralistic but her recent behaviour disgust me.

[AlvinTheMaker]

So sorry for the events you are going through.

The good news it that is only money you are losing now. It is something you can always make more.

The bad news is that she is taking the lead role with family court. You gotta change that dynamic - all it takes is you changing your steps. Get outside help, get coaching, do whatever it takes to make next round more balanced.

Alvin

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Alvin,

I have the best legal advice and have done my best. I just can’t lie on affidavits given my role as an officer of the Court.

I have just learned how far gone she is. It will be a long road.

[Dragonfly33]

Help sorry about the situation you are in right now. I cannot imagine to be in your shoes. I hope the court will make a balanced and fair decision. Praying for you. It’s been 2 years since my divorce and I’m glad it was over. You’ll get there too.

[Helpnewc]

Dear Colleagues,

I am surprised how hard today was. I went to watch my girls play soccer but it was my wife’s weekend with them. So I sat on my chair alone. She did not acknowledge my presence. My eldest smiled at me twice when she could not been seen by my wife.

I packed up my chair and walked away after the second game. I heard a yell and it was my littlest yelling Dad. She gave me a hug and I left.

I will stick at it. My kids need to know I am there to watch them. I can’t do much about them being afraid to talk to me.

But it is hard. This person you loved and who now thinks you are something you are not. But all I can be is a good man and love my kids.


But it is not a world I ever wanted to inhabit.

[MadLuv]

I’m sorry Help.  It’s all so hard.  My XH has  escaped to a nee life and hasnt seen his kids for over 3 years after 30 together. It is so hard to be in a life u imagined and try to accept things as they are, but you are doing that to your best ability and that’s all you can do. Keep showing up.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I am so sorry to hear that you are are going through all of this. I know that you are in the phase where the ex is trying to punish you for all that you have done to her. Trust me, I went through that phase. Everything was my fault and it was my fault she acted the way she did. However, this is just shifting the blame so it eases her own guilt.

I never wanted to inherent this mess either and there is nothing I can say that can make it any better. However, your statement is the best mindset:

But all I can be is a good man and love my kids.

That is the right focus. You can only control you and your actions can influence others. That's the best you can do on any given day. I do hope you stick at it and don't be discouraged. She made her choice and just as much as you have to live with her decision, so does she.

Have an awesome day,

(((Ready)))

[Baxter1]

All the way from this side of the world I can see that you are a good man and good father. No one deserves this but you are navigating this the best way you can. I’m so glad you were at the game and you got a hug, sounds like it was worth the trip.

[Helpnewc]

So I saw the $11,000 social worker I was made to pay for. The most expensive game of UNO I have ever played.

As expected, she sided with my ex-wife and saw me as some driven, dominating successful law partner. She recommend our existing arrangement of 5 nights with me a fortnight with me returning them at 8 pm on a Sunday so effectively 6 days.

My wife had sought I see the girls 3 nights a fortnight but has agreed to the existing arrangement. I have decided to accept that and move on. The reality is that I will wait a year for a hearing and by that stage my eldest will just decide what she wants without the courts intervention and my youngest will follow her.

I am content enough with the decision. I am down a day but I have not put my daughters through the wringer.  I very disappointed at the lies that have been told by my wife in her sworn evidence. It just beggars belief.

I feel lighter. The girls are going well and I suspect I might get what I wanted in the future just by being a great dad. My wife still has not told them about the boyfriend but she said she would last weekend. It seems she did not.

I find it very sad. My wife is still in lala land with the new fellow and it is 3 years post. But she just tells so many lies and it is difficult to have her in my life.

It is taken so long to be a better person. To let go of my old life and to start recovering. I feel this is a step towards a better life.

[Baxter1]

Well done in not putting your daughters through any drama. It is interesting to make a new life for yourself. This is not the journey any of us wanted but here we are 🤷‍♂️.

Happy Father’s Day

[Helpnewc]

Thanks Baxter, tough day today.

I don’t know why I bothered but I spoke to my wife today and sought an apology for the harm she has done me. She apologised for everything she had done to hurt me but when I asked what were those things she could not name one. It was just dreadful.

This person who I loved so much and who loved me so much just speaking to me like a robot and like I was a nuisance.

I this proverb somewhere:

“Imagine being bitten by a snake and instead of trying to help yourself heal and recover from the poison, you try to catch the snake, to find out the reason it bit you to prove to it that you didn’t deserve that.”

I think that is what I did today. My wife was not always a snake but plainly she is at the moment.

I do wonder why I still seek acknowledgment that what was done to me was wrong. A genuine apology would have mattered I think but it is clear she is incapable of it and it just hurt me more.

She has to have a hysterectomy in a couple of weeks. I do believe the world eventually catches up with people but it is so awful to have your marriage turned into something terrible so that they can run.

[OffRoad]

I like that proverb. I think we still want to think that the spouse we knew and loved, and at least appeared sane, didn't mean to hurt us. If the just UNDERSTOOD what they had done, the would acknowledge it, and seek to make amends. It's what WE would do.

It has helped me to think of the MLC as a kind of mental break. One where right and wrong doesn't exist. There is no concept of honor, Integrity, loyalty or morals. There is only themselves, what they want and no care for anyone unless that person fills a need for them. Some people (a very few) can heal that break. Some never will.

And it so much harder still when the courts have zero clue.

All I can say from my end is when I dropped any expectations, it helped my mental state. And I include expecting my MLCer to act like a decent human being. He's just my third cousin I only see occasionally. I don't know him at all.

Keep being the best you and Dad you can be. You are incredible, your girls know it.

[KayDee]

It helped me to, repeatedly, say to myself 'why I am feeling bad for someone else's actions'.  I too was hoping (I gave up expectations really early into this festival) for some sort of apology, especially after my xH eventually realised it was him, and that he was, to quote him 'going through something'. He even told me he was ashamed and didn't know why he did certain things. But then he hardened his shell again, and did more bad. And this is the thing, we cannot hang our coats on anything a fractured person does or says alas. Because the are all over the place emotionally. If we are able, we can be kind. We can try to empathize, but we cannot expect anything from them. For me, keeping my values and integrity was important to my own healing. I did not want to pickle in my own bitter juices.

My second wave of peace came when I got an apology for myself. I know, as well as one can, what happened. I know that what happened was not my fault. I was a good wife and partner. Good enough, that is....

[Helpnewc]

Thank you.

It is just so odd. She won’t even park in my driveway anymore.

I am just staying distant.

[TheShore]

It helped me to, repeatedly, say to myself 'why I am feeling bad for someone else's actions'.  I too was hoping (I gave up expectations really early into this festival) for some sort of apology, especially after my xH eventually realised it was him, and that he was, to quote him 'going through something'. He even told me he was ashamed and didn't know why he did certain things. But then he hardened his shell again, and did more bad. And this is the thing, we cannot hang our coats on anything a fractured person does or says alas. Because the are all over the place emotionally. If we are able, we can be kind. We can try to empathize, but we cannot expect anything from them. For me, keeping my values and integrity was important to my own healing. I did not want to pickle in my own bitter juices.

My second wave of peace came when I got an apology for myself. I know, as well as one can, what happened. I know that what happened was not my fault. I was a good wife and partner. Good enough, that is....

The only comment that I have is on the first part... I personally feel bad for my kids.  They didn't choose this but will feel the effects.  They are going from a great mom and family to idk what you want to call it...

[Helpnewc]

Yes, it is very difficult for my girls.

The love both their parents. They find it very difficult.
Yesterday was my littlest girls birthday, there was a whole lot of manipulation about how she wanted to be with her mum which I agreed to.

Until the boyfriend was available and she was dropped fast, I find it very difficult how the kids are needed until they are not. Most the time they don’t know.

I just keep making good decisions for my daughters. As long as I do that, it seems to work out.

[TheShore]

Yes, it is very difficult for my girls.

The love both their parents. They find it very difficult.
Yesterday was my littlest girls birthday, there was a whole lot of manipulation about how she wanted to be with her mum which I agreed to.

Until the boyfriend was available and she was dropped fast, I find it very difficult how the kids are needed until they are not. Most the time they don’t know.

I just keep making good decisions for my daughters. As long as I do that, it seems to work out.

Keep up the good decisions, things you can control

I feel like my MLCer treats the kiddoz as pieces of furniture almost.  Or only wants them around when it’s convenient or when she wants a buddy (different from a friend).

[Helpnewc]

It has been over 3 years. 3 years and 2 months.

It is strange to live this life you never wanted or knew existed.

Things seem to be getting worse with my ex wife rather than better. I have given up trying to understand it. She has introduced the girls to the boyfriend but they do not know he occupies that role. I suspect they will work that out with time.


In the end, we did not settle on custody. The trial judge expressed some views that were favourable to me so I backed up the truck. I realised I was making an emotional decision rather than a good decision for the girls and I. My ex partner was pretty angry but bad luck.

My littlest laid in bed with me on Thursday night and I explained I won’t see her again till Thursday. She just said it is too long and dad why did mum leave you. I simply said I don’t know and somethings we just have to accept but not understand.


I am quite weary. It has been a rough journey. Learning that truth is malleable and what gaslighting is,


But I am less emotional. And do tolerate lies anymore. I simply correct them kindly and move on.

But I do not understand what happened. I do realise I never will.

[Helpnewc]

Dear Survivors,
The Court case grinds on. Large amounts of money being spent and damage being caused over a couple of days. Yet seeing my daughters 5 days a fortnight just seems fundamentally unfair. I just can’t wear it so I will just keep grinding on.

The Judge had an interlocutory hearing in our matter. He does not understand why we are there. Neither do I. We have a hearing date in March next year which seems a long time away. He basically recommended my wife settle for what I have offered as a compromise but of course we can’t do that.

You feel punished for being a good man. As there is no family violence in our case, no drugs or alcohol abuse we are a low priority. Our Hearing date in March is as a ‘backup’ matter so we may not get reached.

I just exist. It is all I can do.

-Help

Name changed for privacy - FW

[forthetrees]

I am so sorry. That seems like way too short of a spate of time to have your kiddos. Please do edit your post to delete your real name.
I´m guessing that the court stuff sends you into yet another round of processing and man oh man, it takes a toll on you physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. BUT... you have already proven that you find your way out of the quagmire. So while slogging through it remind yourself that the other shore lies ahead.

[FaithWalker]

Wow, March of 2026, that seems just cruel Help.  I'm so sorry!  I wish there was a way you could get it moved up.

[FaithWalker]

I am so sorry. That seems like way too short of a spate of time to have your kiddos. Please do edit your post to delete your real name.

Ftt you must have posted while I was fixing it.   

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

It is strange to live this life you never wanted or knew existed.

It is very hard especially when the person that you felt you could depend on the most is the one that is trying to hurt you the most. It's one thing to just end the marriage, but then to try everything they can do to destroy you in the process.

She has introduced the girls to the boyfriend but they do not know he occupies that role. I suspect they will work that out with time.

It's funny how she claims you are the controlling one, but now she's calling all the shots. I do hope that she has picked someone decent as there are a lot of not so good people out there.

He does not understand why we are there. Neither do I. We have a hearing date in March next year which seems a long time away. He basically recommended my wife settle for what I have offered as a compromise but of course we can’t do that.

Of course not, you are trying to be rational and come to an acceptable compromise, but she's intent on burying you.

It really does seem that you are getting all the hard knocks. I do hope that something goes your way. Just keep moving forward and be the difference in your daughter's lives.

I truly wish you the very best and know we are all rooting for you,

(((Ready)))

[Helpnewc]

Dear fellow LBS,

Is it common for an MLCer to absolutely unable to make decisions?

I have been trying to resolve parenting with my wife for 2 years. The Judge who will hear our matter has expressed his views which concise precisely with what have offered but she seems completely unable to make the decision.
I just wondered if others had a similar experience. I have let her go. I just want some structure for the girls.

Help

[AlvinTheMaker]

Perfectly normal MLC behaviour IMHO. Most likely you are looking at a very classic high stress 4F response (fight/flight/freeze/fawn).

A bigger question is whether this inability is just this one thing, all things related to some topic (such as divorce or kids), or does it apply many areas of her personal life too.  If more widespread, then you can imagine it as gauge of internal cooking and pressure.

Sadly not much you can do except focus on wellbeing of yourself and people you love while she is not facing her issues.

Alvin

[Helpnewc]

Dear Fellow LBS,

I have kind of hit the wall. I had been asking my wife for a response for the   Offer on parenting which is consistent with the views expressed by the Judge. She has steadfastly ignored my messages.

I just got to the point where I indicated that I felt it was abusive of her not to respond and she responded with she did not mean to be abusive and she was weight her options. She had been weighing her options for 2 years.

We are literally fighting over one night. She makes me drop the girls off at 7 pm on a Sunday and it pisses me off.


I have just said to her that if she does not accept the offer by Friday then we will just run the case. I think that will help me manage my thoughts. Her lack of regard for my well being is amazing.

And I asked to take my girls for one first day of school this year at the school I pay for. She refused.

She is such a grub. It is hard to believe she was my wife.

[Helpnewc]

Dear fellow LBS,

So she indicated that she would get back to me as she was “considering her options” but she did not.

I have just accepted we will have a trial. It is bizarre over one night but I hate dropping the girls off at 7 pm on a Sunday and there is no prospect of that being ordered.

I suspect I am just being abused a bit by the system and she is simply enjoying the present arrangement up until the Hearing in March next year and will want to take the offer then. I have decided it will not be available then and I will just push through for the 7 days. I will just feel abused if I resolve for the compromise at that point.

I struggle with why she still has the capacity to make me feel worthless. She has ignored every bit of engagement since the beginning and it is consistent with how she approached the end of our marriage. She withdrew, plotted and did not give me a chance.

It is funny how unhelpful hope is. Everything she has done has been consistent yet I hope for better and for some healing.

But for some reason damage is better.


Help

[Helpnewc]

3.5 years in.

I feel better but I am still hollowed out. Your confidence takes such a knock. Like one of those sad balloons after a party. Inflated but a bit soggy.

I still have not settled parenting. She is frustrated as I have compromised in everything but her kids. I finally saw the boyfriend. Older and uglier. You can’t win that one. If they are better looking you are upset. If they are not you are upset. He is just a man. A bloke who was happy to contribute to the destruction of a family. His main advantage is not being me.


She asked to speak to me about the Court case. I have tried to speak to her for 3 years. She has ignored me at everyone point. I said no. There is no point the offer is the offer.


But the bright spot are my girls. I am such a better dad. We have such fun. It is the only gift.


But the loneliness is powerful. But right now I need it. It heals. My Doctor said it is an epidemic and causes also sorts of problem. I am just waiting. Healing. Recovering.

Living a life I never thought I would. And still in shock over 3 years later.

[Baxter1]

If there is one silver lining to all this it’s the children. My relationship with the kids is so much better than it was before all this. Enjoy your time with the girls!

[OffRoad]

The hard part is getting to and past whatever court appearances you end up having to go through.  Curiously, what do you want, to drop the girls at, say 9 PM on Sunday? Do you know of the reason for 7PM on Sunday? (just asking). You deserve to spend the same amount of time with your daughters as she does.  I hope that the holidays are also mapped out in your offer. At this point, you are probably wise to stay away from her as best you can. A friend of mine went to pick up his kids and his ex invited him in to the house. Then she accused him of assaulting her ( no such assault took place, but prove it when you have a crazy person accusing). It sounds to me like she is trying to set him up so he won't get custody at all. I told him stay outside of the house, always. At least until the ink on the final child arrangements is dry.

It is great that you can be a better father. I hope you and the girls enjoy every minute you have together.

[Helpnewc]

Dear Off-road,

There is no logic to the Sunday night. She just wants what she wants but there is a suspicion that it may be due to a reduction in child support if they stay over on the Sunday. The reality is that the case on the Sunday night js hopeless and no father in Australia has been ordered to return their kids at 7 pm on a Sunday.

I am very careful with her. We use an App to communicate that keeps a record that cannot be changed. She recently asked to stop doing that but I have refused until the final orders are made. She regularly sends messages when she ignores me for days on the App about the girls indicating I can call her but then does not answer the phone. I just simply ask her to check her notifications.

There is some indication there may be movement and we may resolve. The inevitability of the outcome and the costs seems to be having an impact but I manage my expectations. Nothing rational is going on.

Thank you for your message. I am very conscious of the dangers. In many respects I have had it easier than many men with the false accusations only relating to financial control and not to family violence. I was never controlling but the fiction leads to outcomes in the Australian system and is also necessary to justify her behaviour.

Help

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I am so sorry that you are in such a situation. I am past all custody, child support, and alimony.

She just wants what she wants but there is a suspicion that it may be due to a reduction in child support if they stay over on the Sunday. The reality is that the case on the Sunday night js hopeless and no father in Australia has been ordered to return their kids at 7 pm on a Sunday.

In the above sentence, my ex and you ex are in the same boat. She was suspicious of every transaction or issue where she had to sign or take action. In one of our retirement supplements. She was going to receive a lump sum and no interest would be applied until she removed her asset from my account. As expected, she would not sign any documents to receive her funds. Then she kept asking the financial advisor how she was going to get. He would reply that you are getting x dollars. She would then ask about interest and he would reply until you sign that document, you are not getting any interest at all. It will be x dollars today, x dollars tomorrow, and x dollars ten years from now. She finally signed the document. As per my retirement, there were more documents to be signed. She wouldn't sign them. I finally took the forms into court, filed a motion, and the court signed on her behalf. Over three years to get that accomplished. I could have submitted a different option that would have hurt her and enabled me to become whole again, but I didn't want to cross that path and selected the option that benefited her.  You see, even when presented with the opportunity to hurt her, I took the higher road- just like you have done.

After all was said and done, she sent me a text thanking me for taking care of everything. Just crazy. I don't know if they just reflect on their own actions and deceit and feel that since they have done it to us, that we would do the same back to them.

Just a thought- I really have no clue.

Keep taking care of your daughters and be careful,

(((Ready)))

[Dragonfly33]

Ready I admire not just your wisdom but also your kindness despite how you were treated. I hope your exw will realize one day what she lost not that it matters to you anymore.

[Helpnewc]

Dear LBS,

After 2 years in Court we appear to have resolved for what I offered 3 years ago. The truth is that my wife has been simply using the system to have more time with my girls and sadly where there is no domestic violence, substance abuse or mental illness we were at the bottom of the list.

But I have got there. I still don’t quite understand how we are in this place and why I have been treated so badly. I have tried to be kind but it just leads to more nastiness so from 2026 I am just going to put myself first. There has been no empathy or kindness for me.

And I have asked for 18 months for the divorce application from her. It keeps being promised but does not arrive. I will ask once more in the New Year and then do it myself.

It is very sad for our children that we are unable to speak to each other but I accept that. I cannot have anything to do with someone who lies so much and is completely unaccountable.

Help

[FaithWalker]

I'm so sorry Help, what a long road.  Hang in there, hopefully there will be some light soon.

[Helpnewc]

I have just returned from a 12 day cruise with the girls. It was great.

The divorce application has not arrived. I have been ignored. I suspect on a holiday with the boyfriend.

I know there are those who say they are still in there. My experience is they are not. I have never seen such a change.

And I accept I am a slow learner but I have finally stopped asking the snake why it bit me.
I probably regret standing. But I also know I had to try. It has delayed my healing.

But I have also learned that any kindness is abused. I only make decisions on what is good for me and the girls from now.

[Dragonfly33]

As they always say here, be kind to yourself. I guess a lot of us here were once slow learners but what’s important thing is we learned something. We might have different pace in the learning process but we will all get there. In the past I also said to myself, I should have give up earlier but as my psychologist said at the time I wasn’t just capable and that’s ok. So, don’t regret anything, you did your best to save your marriage and at least you can look back and say I tried. Keep healing!  Glad you enjoyed your trip with your daughters.

[Trustandlove]

Hi, Help,

By that reckoning I am/was the slowest learner here....  but I don't regret standing for all that time, and for being there for my children.  They are now grown and for them it meant everything. My daughter said to me just the other day that she now, as an adult, is seeing how hard that all was, and that she knows that I kept it all on as even a keel as I could for them. 

[Baxter1]

I’m sorry you’re going through this. Sounds like a long wait but it will be worth it in the end. Glad the tablets are helping.

[Helpnewc]

So at 53 I have lost my job. It is the first time that has happened to me and it is bewildering. I did not cope well when my marriage ended and the sharks have been circling. They have now attacked and I am done.

I get six months notice and I will find something else. It is just feels like the destruction of everything I loved is complete. The good news is my heart is going well.

I was really hating the job but the money was good and was allowing me to recover from a pretty awful property settlement. I know it is only two weeks since I was told and it will get better.

I just loved my wife and my family. The destruction of MLC is so wide spread. My friends are helping me. I am grateful.


And still my ex-wife does not take an accountability at all. It is quite extraordinary. But I no longer need that and just accept it is where I am.

But how my life has changed.

[Baxter1]

Life seems to really be kicking you in the stones it would seem. Maybe it all part of the master plan for something new and better. Sorry this happened but good luck!

[JohnnyBravo]

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear that, Helpnewc. Best of luck on the job search, and I bet these skills we didn't want to learn will help you out. (There's an Ursa quote about marketable skills somewhere...)

JB

[freefall2flight]

Hey Help,

I am really sorry to hear your news. I’m somewhat "new-old" here. I joined HS back in early 2023 and was part of the SU&T (Stand Up & Thrive) group, which was exceptionally helpful. I’ve been in another Standing group since May 2023, but as my journey continues to move forward, I found myself wanting to reflect on where I am now versus where I was.

Everyone’s stories here are a mixture of pain, yet they are contrasted with incredible strength and growth. Your story stuck out to me because the timeline and events were eerily similar, at times, I thought I’d lost my mind and was reading my own posts! I guess that is the nature of MLC; it brings both comfort and sorrow to know the path is so well-documented, yet frustrating that they can’t just "hurry through the gates" to the end.

When I look back to Jan/Feb 2023 and the two "Bomb Drops," I see how broken I was. I believe no relationship hits a storm without both parties contributing to the navigation, but after the drop, I spiraled. Every facet of my life was affected, and I developed a psychological intolerance for silence that lasted nearly two years. I tried to patch my pain as those in grief do, but much like the MLCer’s journey, I feel that is part of our "rite of passage" as Standers. In August 2023 (two months after my wife moved out), I hit my rock bottom. That is where my serious growth started.

Since then, my wife started a new relationship and moved him in. This triggered severe mental health challenges in my D9 (then 7), who reported her mother’s actions to the school and mental health workers. That relationship ended, and for a minute, I saw glimpses of her old self. It was short-lived. She started another relationship (LO2) and filed for divorce. The cycle repeated: she introduced the children to the new partner, and the mental health issues for D9 have been triggered all over again.

My wife is currently at her worst for selfishness and "monstering." She is in a constant blind rage that often defies logic. I believe she is filled with guilt and shame, which fuels her rage toward me, despite me barely interacting with her outside of basic co-parenting logistics. For someone chasing an ideal of "happiness," she is outwardly miserable. Her only forum for a smile is social media, which I no longer partake in.

I look at her life now: she has blown our savings, she has "affaired down" twice (D9 even commented that the new boyfriend looks exactly like the old one), and she lives in a small house with her brother and LO2 (D9 & D6 spend 50% of their time there however D9 has commented she doesn't want to live with Mummy any more. She feels Mummy doesn't love and her even is observant enough to know her Mummy is no longer the person she once was). My daughters are both receiving wellbeing interventions, and D9’s care has been escalated to local mental health services. My wife refuses to understand the legal consequences of the divorce and stopped paying her share of the mortgage almost 3 years ago, leaving it all to me. She has removed every person of positive influence from her life, surrounding herself with colleagues who have had their own affairs or "wet lettuce" friends who lie for her. Her life is a train wreck hurtling toward a broken bridge.

So, why am I listing these complaints? To offer a contrast.

As much as I am in the middle of a divorce, hemorrhaging money to lawyers, and dealing with safeguarding issues and the everyday curveballs of work and car troubles... I actually know I will be OK. And you know what? You will be too, my friend.

I’ve let go of perfectionism and the need to have all the answers. I can’t control the curveballs, but I can control my response. I am most proud of my relationship with my children. It grows stronger every day; they know their Dad’s love is a "Safe Place." Grasping onto these wins drives me toward a positive future.

A vulture will always find a carcass because that is what it looks for; I choose to look for the good. Perhaps your recent job loss is an opportunity rather than a curse, another stepping stone in your bright future. While it sounds like your wife hasn't reached her rock bottom yet, I am certain that as we grow, it chips away at their cognitive dissonance. Our light eventually spills into their darkness.

I originally set a "timeline" to exit my Stand in January 2024, yet somehow I have miraculously made it this far. My journey led me to faith, and I attribute God’s work to getting me here, though I respect that everyone has their own path. The most important thing is to reflect on how far you’ve come, it’s so easy to forget that when things are hard.

I want to encourage you today: you’ve made it this far, and you will live to fight another day! What lucky children you have to have such a steadfast father.

All the best,

free

[UrsaMajor]

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear that, Helpnewc. Best of luck on the job search, and I bet these skills we didn't want to learn will help you out. (There's an Ursa quote about marketable skills somewhere...)

JB

Ah yes...... an Ursa-ism stolen from someone else....

"One does not make the trip to Hades and back without learning some marketable skills..... "

[Helpnewc]

Thank you.

It is just very very hard right now. I am a very good father now and something work wise will turn up.

You just feel abandoned by all the things you loved. I am a much better person but I do wish I had not gone to Hades. I also wish to leave it.

Thank you for the positive words.