[a]

Hi

I recently received  a detailed explanation from a dear friend who with a generosity of spirit wrote me a lengthy email describing his - as he calls is "fall from grace"  I have asked his permission to post his email on this forum and he is okay with it.....so here goes.
______________________________________________________________
 My Midlife Depression

My explanation of how I experienced my midlife depression (often referred to as a midlife crisis MLC) is in two parts.  The first part explains my feelings at the time and the consequent behaviours; the second is a post mortem of my MLC from the perspective of having survived it to become a more integrated human being.

Part 1 – the MLC

I was 41 years old and in the space of one year I had lost a good friend to cancer and after many years trying to recover a failing business I had to finally admit defeat and declare bankruptcy.  Just like that my world had changed and I was back in the job market working for a younger boss.  This was the catalyst to what became a self-destructive search for meaning.

I awoke one day to realise I felt emotionally numb and that nothing in my life had any meaning - I did not recognise the man staring back at me from the mirror  -   I was a failure period! I was worthless period! I had lost any emotional connection to the people that once meant the most in my life – my wife and two daughters.  I had no connection to any happy memories of the past. I was emotionally empty.   At first, I reasoned that I must love my wife but I could not feel it, I must love my daughters but I could not feel it. Emotionally numb and terrified my thoughts were consumed with the fear of continuing with an unfulfilled life that lacked happiness, meaning and purpose, a life that was filled with hopelessness and sadness, that smacked of failure, routine and boredom – I was like a gerbil on a wheel going nowhere – this life did not reflect the life I wanted or the person I wanted to be- although I was not sure who I wanted to be. I was a maelstrom of confusion.   This confusion of not knowing who I was, lent a panic and urgency to search for a ‘new’ life because the old one was not working.  Time was running out, my youth was fading fast and I had to get the life I wanted now before it was too late - because the life I had been living so far had been a farce- not really but that’s was how I felt at the time.  And so began a journey where I  set aside my belief structure, my true-self and became a person that outwardly expressed a contradiction to what was real on the inside, a persona that bought into an illusion of success, fun, excitement and ‘happiness’. This journey lacked any real attempt to find meaning and purpose,  even though I used this reasoning to justify my MLC behaviour.

My new found persona gave me a ‘clarity’ of who I was supposed to be – Not!!! But at the time I was convinced by this new found ‘clarity’, this new found ‘persona’.   I started my ‘new’ life by renewing my pursuits of old, namely past time hobbies from my younger days.  This was done in an attempt to reconnect with my youth – because apart from the emotional void I also felt old and that time had suddenly passed me by and I had little to show for it – I had wasted my youth.  My wife bless her soul could see my despair and encouraged me to take up rock climbing and sky diving; these pursuits brought me into contact with new people and often involved weekends away.

It was in this environment and this altered state of mind, that I met a young attractive woman – at first we kept it purely platonic but the attraction was evident, she made me feel good, she admired me and gave my flailing ego the validation I so desperately needed.  This is not to say my wife was not giving me the support I needed, but her support came without the excitement of a flirtatious relationship – my wife represented the old life marked with an overwhelming burden of responsibilities and feelings of failure - I had come to hate this life while this woman represented freedom and everything else I wanted for my new life – so I thought at the time.  There is something to be said for the admiration of someone who does not really know you – your failures, your demons, your past – you can pretend to be someone else – it’s a fresh start – a blank slate to create a new more exciting life, a new more exciting you – it feels empowering.   Suffice it to say that I began an affair which offered me the emotional highs my marriage no longer offered.  To my new found ‘awareness’ this seemed to indicate that this new path was the right one.  As the affair progressed my affair partner became more involved with my new life than my wife – to succour my feelings of guilt I began to withdraw from my wife, this withdrawal was accompanied by anger as in my mind I started to view my wife in negative terms, I unconsciously created a disharmonious environment to bring out the worst in myself and her, so that I could give justification to my behaviour by exaggerating her weaknesses and her failures as a spouse and as a human being.  I began to blame my wife for my discontent, I projected my internal discontent onto our marriage. 

Eventually, I managed to convince myself that I had never been happy with her or our marriage – not true but my new persona, my new awareness had convinced me of this ‘truth’.  I realise now that I never stopped loving my wife in my crisis I had just set my feelings for her aside and pursued those feelings that made me feel less guilty, feelings that gave me an emotional high, feelings that made me feel empowered.  However, these feeling were always short lived – at first I blamed this on the fact that I was unable to pursue my new life with a wife and daughters in the way, but as it turned out even with my family out of the way these feelings remained short lived.

My wife finally found out about the affair – one would think bringing the affair out into the open would bring a sense of relief and freedom – now I could pursue my new life, my new ‘love’, without the tiresome obligations of wife and family.  But all that it did was turn up the heat from a frying pan to a fire.  Feelings of guilt, moral failure, integrity failure, remorse, regret, anxiety, lack of self worth, loneliness, failure and sadness were intensified.  So what did I do, I began to run faster, I increased the self-medication by  pursuing  a life of excitement to create emotional highs that in the moment made me forget and brought the illusion that my life was better, I was happier, I was fulfilled – but in those quiet moments the despair would return – so I kept on moving, I filled my days with work and many other activities so that there was little time left to think, so that by the time I got to my apartment I was too tired to think.  Although on those days where I was too wired to sleep porn sites and adult dating chat rooms became my escape from the demons in my head.  I had become the narcissist trying to prove that he is real!

My affair while in its secret phase offered the excitement to create the emotional highs and the illusion that I was ‘in-love’, but after exposure my affair partner in the space of a few short months failed to provide the emotional highs required to escape the darkness within.  To keep the illusion alive to my new friends, colleagues and family,  that I had made the right choice in terms of leaving my family for my new ‘love’ interest  I maintained my relationship with her and together we indulged in all sorts of ‘fun’ activities that required  spending much money (I bought a sports car, bought new cloths and got a tattoo, expensive dinners and holidays), drinking, drugging (only the occasional recreational joint), kinky sex and parties.  This new life did not lend itself to continued pursuit of healthier sports like mountain climbing and sky diving so organising weekend car trips around the country with my new friends of racing car enthusiasts became the new passion.  Yet, my affair partner just like my wife failed to maintain my ‘happiness’ – so behind her back I began to have one night stands.  My womanising not only enabled my new obsession with the excitement of illicit sex (this was the more popular pain medication I used followed by alcohol) but these women provided me with the admiration and attention that I could no longer get from my affair partner – not that she was not attentive – she just was not enough.   She was no longer the blank slate onto which I could project all my desires.  And of course I would at times use the poor me had a terrible wife talk to get further empathy from these unsuspecting women.

And so began my journey into a life of deception, lies and manipulation that brought me to the very pit of despair – although the journey itself offered emotional highs that convincingly created the illusion that I was at last happy, in all honesty the happy moments were fleeting – I had to keep moving and doing things that continued to create the illusion of happiness, if I stopped  the demons would return, each time they did they would be magnified – more intense -because each time I got drunk, slept with another woman, smoked another joint, lied to and manipulated people my self- loathing and guilt would be compounded.  This would create even more urgency to escape.......it was a never ending cycle of momentary escapes of emotional highs followed by emotional lows.  The effort to keep up an image of confidence and surety that my life was exactly as I wanted it to be began to take its toll.    All my effort was yielding nothing but emptiness.  The highs were getting lower while the depth were getting deeper as I knowingly pursued behaviours that compromised my integrity, my sense of honour, and yet like an alcoholic or person  with an eating disorder  the  knowledge that what I was doing was self-destructive and compounding my self-loathing – could not stop my behaviour.  I was addicted to a self-destructive life I came to abhor, but in the beginning it was a life that my ‘new’ persona thrived on, for the simple reason that it at least made me feel something, which was a lot better than feeling nothing at all or despair.   In the beginning I was convinced this new life was who I was supposed to be – it kept the depression at bay and brought me moments of ‘happiness’.

The depression could no longer be silenced, I finally hit rock bottom – I woke up one morning in my apartment looking at my sleeping affair partner with a fragmented memories from an alcohol induced fog from the night before.  In my hangover stupor I was suddenly struck by deep feelings of anxiety - I did not really know the person who lay beside me.  She was a stranger to me – she had been a welcomed distraction nothing more – once again I was struck by deep feelings of despair – only this time the despair was overwhelming and there was nowhere left to run – I was exhausted.  My life had no meaning at all – life had no meaning at all – life was a terrible task master from which there was only one escape – Death.   I kept these feeling in check long enough to ask my affair partner to give me some timeout and upon starring at a photo of my daughters in happier times I crashed – I curled up on the floor in a foetal position and cried and cried and cried for the loss of my innocence, self- worthiness,  integrity and for the person I used to be.  I was 47 years old and I had spent the last six years in a blur of mind numbing activities that had led me to the f*ck up that was my life.   As the 16th century saying goes “hell is truth seen too late!”.  My pursuit of happiness had failed dismally, I had made enormous sacrifices and burnt many bridges in this hollow pursuit.   I had lost the people who most loved me – I had discarded them like yesterdays newspaper and here I was a lonely and pathetic excuse for a human being let alone a man.  I did not recognise and did not want to be this persona, it had failed me dismally, it had compromised everything I had once held dear.  I lay there with one thought  a deep unfailing urge to escape the despair.  I was in so much emotional pain that death appeared as my friend to succour my despair and offer me peace.  For the first time in my life I had thoughts of suicide – in my despair I reached out to the only person I could really trust.....I  called my ex-wife......she recognised my cry for help and came to my rescue that day. 

I spent the next two years in recovery which included counselling and spiritual teachings - trying to find my sense of self – some peace of mind, forgiveness and my sense of self-worth.  I have learnt a lot, and have rediscovered the man I used to be but with some improvements.......after all,  this entire hellish journey had to have had its purpose...otherwise it would all have been a waste – considering what I have lost.   I still have a lot to learn – life is a journey of self discovery – and while I occasionally experience bouts of depression they are less intense as I have now developed the coping mechanisms to deal with it.  My MLC was the most spirit jarring and lonely part of my life’s  journey.  It was an Armageddon of my own making.  Today I have realised happiness comes from within and it begins with forgiveness, the most important part of which is forgiving myself for the bad choices I made, especially those made during my MLC.  For the most part I have forgiven myself for these bad choices however I still live with regret – well only one – and that is that I lost my only true love and closest ally – my wife.  While she has forgiven me, and we remain friends she has moved on with her life.  My relationship with my daughters is slowly recovering – bless their hearts they have forgiven their daddy.

There is a saying  “discipline weighs ounces but regret weights tonnes”.  Where my wife and my daughters are concerned I still live with the weight of tonnes – I live in hope that the day comes were I make my peace and truly forgive myself for this mistake.
______________________________________________________________

I will post part 2 at some other stage

hope this helps some of you gain some insight

moment


PART TWO is #89: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.msg345718#msg345718
RCR edited to add link to Part 2

[nah]

WOW--- attaching.

[Dagolark]

Wow. This is really interesting. I see a lot of things that sound familiar... like the fact that a new person allows them to live the fantasy and project whatever imaginary 'self' they want...

Thank you so much for sharing! It gave me an epiphany, but I'll post it on my own thread to not hijack here...

[bellagio88]

I have just come back to the forum after a few months away.
Thank you thank you thank you. I could almost envisage my MLCer word for word here...
Blessings...x

[Searching4Answers]

Very interesting.


Moment -

Please give us the backstory of your relationship to this person when you can.

Thanks for sharing!

[twiceburnt]

For the most part I have forgiven myself for these bad choices however I still live with regret – well only one – and that is that I lost my only true love and closest ally – my wife. 

I think this quote was my favorite part.  And this also helps me realize that my W truly must not have hit rock bottom like this person did before coming back.

Thanks for posting this and tell your friend thank you for sharing his story.  It will help many LBSers understand what is going on. 

[PatienceGalore]

I needed to read this.....absolutely excellent.
I look forward to part 2

Thank you for sharing this

PG

[serenity]

Hi moment,

Thank you so much for sharing your friends story.

I must admit the tears flowed as I read it. It answered a lot of questions that were running around my head tonight.

Hugs

X

[Prdoll1072]

Thank you so much !

[Anjae]

Thank you for posting your friend's story, moment.

His story is not different from all the stories of MLCers who made it to the other side, but none the less it provides (more) confirmation to what we already knew: there is no real happiness in the life of a MLCer, they are empty, they are running.

And most of them end up without their spouse who has moved on.

There is something to be said for the admiration of someone who does not really know you – your failures, your demons, your past – you can pretend to be someone else – it’s a fresh start – a blank slate to create a new more exciting life, a new more exciting you – it feels empowering. 

And this is why OW/OM is so alluring. A total strager (or someone from the past whith whom the MLCer has lost contact) that can be told whatever the MLCer wants and knows nothing about the MLCer.
 
Could you be so kind to post part 2? Thank you.

[blackice]

i needed to read this, it really explains a lot. can't wait to read the second part!

[limitless]

Thank you very much for posting this.

I, like others, look forward to reading part 2.

The depression could no longer be silenced, I finally hit rock bottom – I woke up one morning in my apartment looking at my sleeping affair partner with a fragmented memories from an alcohol induced fog from the night before.  In my hangover stupor I was suddenly struck by deep feelings of anxiety - I did not really know the person who lay beside me.  She was a stranger to me – she had been a welcomed distraction nothing more – once again I was struck by deep feelings of despair – only this time the despair was overwhelming and there was nowhere left to run – I was exhausted.

I have read the stories of other (recovered) MLCers - and never before have I read an explanation of how and what happened when the MLCer "woke up."  Most of the time, the MLCer is not able to describe it very well.

This is the first time I have read an account by an MLCer that describes the "aha" moment. 

I have always asked the question "How do they ever wake up?"  Probably the poor LBS that I have met and talked with are frustrated and tired of me asking that same question.  I just never could understand.  I didn't get how or why an MLCer would (after running away and escaping) - FINALLY WAKE UP and see that he/she really messed up.

This post explains it so clearly.  For those of you (including myself) who think that the OW (especially an OW who has been around for quite a while) - will somehow "work out".....this post clearly explains it.  He woke up with a complete stranger laying beside him. 

I get it now. 

She was a welcomed distraction and nothing more.  This really doesn't say much about the OW.   This screams VOLUMES about what the MLCer is feeling and thinking.  This person is of no importance.  A welcomed distraction and nothing more.

I truly appreciate this post and the insite that it brings.

L

[toomanytearss]

Thank you so much for posting this. 

[living with Hope]

Please write more.  This gives such insight.
If my husband never returns home at least maybe I can understand.  My heart was breaking as I was reading.  I can't imagine the pain and lonliness that you felt.

[windro]

Thank you so much for posting this - it humanizes the other side of this experience, for sure!  There ARE real people in those mlcers.  Lonely and afraid. 

[Learning strength]

Thank you to you and your friend for sharing this !

[calamity]

Thanks for sharing.

[Beautiful Heart]

Thank you!

[Positivity]

Thank you for sharing this.  We all must wonder what the viewpoint of our spouse is.  Looking forward to Part 2

[SSG]

Thank you for posting your friend's story, moment.

There is something to be said for the admiration of someone who does not really know you – your failures, your demons, your past – you can pretend to be someone else – it’s a fresh start – a blank slate to create a new more exciting life, a new more exciting you – it feels empowering. 

And this is why OW/OM is so alluring. A total strager (or someone from the past whith whom the MLCer has lost contact) that can be told whatever the MLCer wants and knows nothing about the MLCer.
 

Thank you so much moment...this helps so very many of us.  The statement above says it all!

SSG

[Venus]

Wow, thank you for sharing that insight from your friend, re-iterates that MLC takes TIME - it took him 6 years to crash..... 
I look forward to reading part 2.

Love & Light
Venus

[stayed]

Thanks for writing this Moment.  My h and I have been reconciled for 8 years.  I had the feeling what he had experienced was something like what you wrote, but he has never really EXPLAINED it... at least not like you did. 

I knew the experience was HELL THOUGH!  I've never been able to really feel the empathy though.  I honestly understood that none of this was about "me", but I just couldn't understand how he could let so much damage crash around him and do nothing to stop it.  I felt all along that he knew what he was doing was wrong, but rather then NOT BEING ABLE TO STOP, I felt HE DIDN'T WANT TO STOP it!  Perhaps, it is a bit of both eh? 

I am going to have my h read this and see what he thinks of it.  I wonder if my h's guilt and ability to not "forgive" himself, is because unlike you, he did not pay the ULTIMATE price and lose his "friend/lover/wife".  He managed to hit rock bottom and cry for help before I had completely moved on.

Thank you for posting this.  Like the others I will be awaiting the 2nd. part eagerly.

Hugs Stayed

[HeartTattoo]

Thanks for posting this, moment,

The beginning of this story seemed so generic, everything we tell ourselves everyday on this forum, that it almost seemed to be one of those nonfiction accounts where the names have been changed & experiences amalgamated to teach a lesson or tell a better story.  The skeptic in me kept saying "is this for real?" or just someone putting in "real story" form everything we try to convince each other of every day.

By the end, the "crashing in depression" part began to tell us something new.  Like L & others here expressed, how does this actually happen?

It is very unfortunate that MLC takes so damn long, because for some of us to truly "move on" there will no longer be room for the MLCer when he finally awakens.  Too bad many of them don't comprehend this until it is too late.

For those of you (including myself) who think that the OW (especially an OW who has been around for quite a while) - will somehow "work out".....this post clearly explains it.  He woke up with a complete stranger laying beside him. 

She was a welcomed distraction and nothing more.  This really doesn't say much about the OW.   This screams VOLUMES about what the MLCer is feeling and thinking.  This person is of no importance.  A welcomed distraction and nothing more.

Yes, L, it really is devilish that MLC nearly always involves infidelity, because we are so distracted by it.  How can we not be?  It tears our hearts out, veins & arteries trailing behind, our lifeblood draining away.  We focus so much time & energy on the OW.  We analyze her, her motives, her traits.  Somehow, in some way, she has to be better than us, have something for our H's that we don't; why else would he be there, stay there for so long?

Here, once again is confirmation.  Yes, she is a distraction, yes, they have good times together, yes they live a "life" together, but ultimately, the OP is not the solution, they are not the one the MLCer loves, they are not the one the MLCer realizes that loves him.  In the end she is truly nothing.

[Yoyolove]

Attaching to continue reading.

[Lanzo]

Wow, thank you for sharing that insight from your friend, re-iterates that MLC takes TIME - it took him 6 years to crash.....  I look forward to reading part 2.

Love & Light
Venus

I picked on the long timescales as well.

Count me in for part 2 .

Lanzo

[i can and will cope]

thank you for sharing this I really needed to read something like this to realise i am not stupid at all thinking my h is having a mlc

cant wait for part 2 hugs to you and your friend x

[summer90]

Thank you so much for posting this story.  It is incredibly generous to help so many grieving LBS's who just want their husband/wife back.

I was totally amazed, but not surprised by the story.

It would be interesting if we could gain some knowledge about anything that could or would have helped the crisis, or memories of things loved ones said or did that stuck in the mind of the MLCer during the crisis that may have helped move the process along.

Does the former MLCer recognize the significance of past family of origin issues in the crisis?

It appears from the story that nothing would have helped?  And no, forum members, I am not trying to fix the MLCer, just understand what's in their head

Really looking forward to part two.

[CallanG]

Thank you for posting , it is so helpful to read stories from people who have been through it.

Callan

[serenity]

It also helped confirm to me that however I had handled things with my H that we would have still had the same outcome!

I have often worried that I handled the situation badly with my H before he left and have often believed I should have just let him do whatever he was going to do and not try to stop him. So thank you, at least I know now I'd still be on my own! I could never have changed his destructive path.

X

[LisaLives]

MLC can take a LONG time.  If he woke up six years later, and spent two years in recovery, think about the fact that this was a very high energy MLCer...  Not having sustained this kind of life before, how long could he PHYSICALLY run that hard and fast?  What about our less energetic MLCers, the ones who creep along, and never have that endorphin crashing, adrenaline fading WTF hangover... how long do they take?  Ten, fifteen years?

[Mitzpah]

MLC can take a LONG time.  If he woke up six years later, and spent two years in recovery, think about the fact that this was a very high energy MLCer...  Not having sustained this kind of life before, how long could he PHYSICALLY run that hard and fast?  What about our less energetic MLCers, the ones who creep along, and never have that endorphin crashing, adrenaline fading WTF hangover... how long do they take?  Ten, fifteen years?

My thoughts exactly... when I consider that my h. had two close friends die of cancer, son diagnosed with cancer, lost his job all in 2006 - we went through son's grueling treatment for about 2 years (he is fine now), he started to descend again at the end of 2008 - 2009 (our silver wedding)- BD at end of 2010 - I wonder what I am looking at 

That is precisely why I have to trust in God and His timing.

[Albatross]

Very insightful story... Thank You for sharing with us. What I get that high energy replayers have addictive prerogatives by design. So they even harder lost self then others, means they are like substance addicts, instead getting chemicals per os they produce them in own body...

So, I start to believe that type of MLCers depend of addiction as a engine for running. Fuel is definitely volume of shadow and mass of addictive substances, does not matter from real substances or hormonal.
Both of those addictions produce more fog, means less of clarity.

In other hand wallowers obviously not prone to be substance addictive, neither chemical or hormonal. So, they are more depressed in general and have less energy. I will add that wallowers are more in fantasy world then high energy replayers because they haven't enough fog and fuel for doing thing in reality.

Lets summarize, there is variables:
1. prone to fantasize
2. prone to be addictive,
3. volume of shadow (how much repressed issues, how much unresolved issues, how much repressed feelings),

More ingredients, and how much of those, crisis is bigger.

Functions can be: Intensity of replay, TIME.

So, bigger shadow, bigger addiction of hormones, biggest addiction of substances, dens fog = very intense replay / big destruction / less clarity / more monster.

My MLCer is prone to fantasize, no addiction of substances, addictive in hormones, big shadow (she was great woman before MLC, means shadow is great also ). And she is most of time wallower. She strongly project in OM's how she see idealistic man. OM1 is her "dream", she can't have him, means they both fantasize and have illusion of platonic "love", emotional affair. OM2 is unusual man but not a man of her "dreams", not idolized. She have PA with him, which doe not make her happy at all, but she have to do it from time to time, or some other reasons.

Just my 2 cents.

[trusting]

In other hand wallowers obviously not prone to be substance addictive, neither chemical or hormonal. So, they are more depressed in general and have less energy. I will add that wallowers are more in fantasy world then high energy replayers because they haven't enough fog and fuel for doing thing in reality.

I have a wallower and I do think he has addictions.  He is not a substance abuser (that I can tell), though he certainly drinks much more the ever did before, which was rare.  But I would agree with it being more of a fantasy world. 

My husband is now about to enter into his seventh year of noticeable MLC. I do see vast improvements in some areas, where he is acting so much more like the old him, but he is still running and still not attempting any relationship with me. 

The part about the running, keeping busy all the time, that is my husband.  To a T. 

[Hmmm]

I think I have a wallower.  He is aware that running, drinking and work were self medication-he is the most intelligent person I know.

Very depressed and has suicidal thoughts.

Caring and wonderful with kis and his Dad but will NOT contact his troubled Mum-far too painful for him.

Does not believe that any marriage is truly happy-even though I genuinely was and still find him very sexy.

I really really hope this doesn't take 6 years

[Thunder]

Reading your friends story almost made me wish my X was a high energy MLCer.  Even though it took him 6 years to crash and burn I think his actions were so severely destructive that it MADE him finally wake up.  A person just can't maintain that way of living for too long.

My wallower doesn't live his fantasy.  I feel some days he could live like this for ever.  Yes, there is depression but he hasn't gone off the deep end.  No partying or drinking or women yet I think in his head he wants to be that partier.  He would love to find someone new and exciting but pretty much gave up trying.
Now he just runs races, works out every day, works tons of overtime and exhausts himself completely.

After close to 4 years I do see some improvements but nothing close to working on himself.
Hmmm, my X is highly intelligent also.  But I don't think it really matters in this crisis.  They still do things that are so self-destructive.  I see mine getting in a lot of financial trouble.

Thank you so much for posting this.  I guess the "waking up" moment hit me the most.  Like others have said I often wondered what happens when they finally do lift the fog and see what they have done.  Finally, one story about how it happens with some.

I guess rock bottom is different with different people.

Looking forward to part 2.   

[sleepless]

Interesting insight. Attaching

[UKStander]

Moment, that MLC friend wouldn't be Brian Newman would it?  There are a few sentences in that story you posted that are verbatim Brian Newman (from his site fortysixty.org - or at least that's where I found it, but not sure it's up there any more). 

The echoes could be script, of course... In which case VERY spooky. 

As some people haven't ever seen the B.Newman story, I'll post it here sometime, for interest.  It's one that I've gone back to many, many times to remind myself what MLC is and how it looks from inside the MLC-ers point of view.... 

Now to read the rest of the article. Can't wait!

[UKStander]

Me again. It's not Brian Newman's story because it ends differently.  Brian Newman ended up back with his wife, Phoenix, the love of his life. And he said his crisis was about 4.5 years in all, if I remember rightly. Spooky, therefore that this MLC-er uses very similar phrases (the 'frying pan' intensity of the crisis; the false 'persona' that they don, almost like a new suit of clothes, and sometimes literally new clothes of course ! 

Stayed, Venus, others I've talked with in depth - this is why I feel some pity for the MLC-ers, why I can't always get up the anger towards them, and why, in the end, I feel more sorrow for them than anything else. I truly believe that they are in survival mode, despite all appearances. Which just makes it SO frustrating that they won't get help. 

I've yet to see a post-MLC story in which the MLC-er openly talks of the demons.  That would be something. But perhaps it's too much for most MLC-ers to reveal, as it would be a betrayal of their families to go public.  For anyone who wants to go down to that level, the demons are very well explained in Alice Miller's book, The Truth Will Set You Free. I think she worked in this area of psychology (the effects of buried, unrecognised pain) for much of her career. When you grasp that bit, I think it's hard to be angry with an MLC-er for even two seconds . . .     

Stayed, I don't think there's very much wilful self-indulgence in there. I know it's hard to believe because our society has a ready-made, forumulaiic, Hollywood-instilled  template of the adulterous husband (or wife) and our MLC-ers fit so very neatly into it - at first glance, or even 100th glance. (The Wolf of Wall St recently helped to confirm that the self-indulgent male is alive and well.)  But MLC is only self-indulgent in the same way that we are when we over-indulge in anything. We KNOW it's wrong, we know payback time is coming, but we can't stop ourselves. I don't believe that they are aware of the hurt that the self-medication is causing - not at the time.

Ironic though it is, and though it doesn't help a fast passage out of here and to peace for the LBS, the MLC-ers deserve our pity. Dreadful word. Maybe I mean sympathy.  Head-spinning stuff.

[a]

Hi All

Wow I did not expect such an overwhelming response. 

I just need to make a correction I didn’t receive this story recently I found it recently and asked permission to post it here recently.

Just a little background on J, my friend who send me this email.  He send this email about 3 years ago when I was still at the depths of my despair.  We met at a Buddhist retreat and I think he could see an emptiness in me.  We got to chatting and he opened up about his experience.

I know that J does not think he went through a MLC, he does not believe this to be a psychological condition with prescriptive patterns of behavior.  To him his experience was just that his experience unique to his perceptions, projections and conditioning – he actually refers to it as a spiritual crisis.  In his email he referred to his crisis as a depression and only called it a MLC for my benefit (I think at the time he realized this is what I needed to process my pain).  At the time I needed to find a reason for the way XH was behaving and MLC seemed to give a possible answer.

Today he has no regrets.  He is on very good terms with his XW and her partner as well as his daughters.  He has found someone else to share his life with, someone more suited to the path he is taking as a practicing Buddhist.  At the time of his crash his XW had already found someone else to share her life with so there was never an opportunity for reconciliation.

J used to be an A type personality.  He was driven to succeed at any cost.  Today he is far removed from that materialistic, success orientated person.  Today he is a teacher and a really gentle, kind man with a very good sense of humor.

  J has a courageousness that I have not seen in many people.  In the end he was willing to sit with his pain and endure every agonizing jab so that he could become a more self aware person.  He admits that there are many paths to enlightenment and that he could have achieved self awareness without destroying his marriage. 

However at the time he was just not aware of what he was dealing with, he simply did not have the consciousness to understand.   

I don’t think my XH will follow the same path as J. My XH does not have the fortitude to face the pain.  Often we learn how to respond to situations in our childhood from our parents. XH parents avoid pain, I remember when they had to have their Boston terrier euthanized, she was their baby, they went on holiday and got a good friend to euthanize her while they were away, they did not want to know when it was going to happen.  XH has never had the courage to face me, my family or friends since BD.  He has embraced OW family and friends he has simply moved into a new life with new people and I truly believe that his marriage to OW will last.  It’s who XH is.  He is not interested in finding inner meaning and is still very much concerned with status and image.

I really think if MLC is a journey some take and that  it is unique to them even if there are some characteristic behaviors and common feelings.

I will post stage 2 as soon as I find it – I will make every effort to look for it this weekend.  It’s not in my mail box but I know I saved it somewhere.

Take care
Moment

p.s  UKStander - J could very well have used similar phrases as Brian Newman and MLCers on the 4060 website because at the time I had sent him articles from this website. He was still healing from the outfall and I thought the articles would help him. I do believe he is sincere and maybe at the time he unconsciously used similar phrases because he could identify with the feelings expressed in those phrases.  I am not sure if I asked him to write about his account today that it would not be somewhat different – his perceptions have changed a great deal.  He has learnt the art of mindfulness. And his perceptions of the world and human behavior has changed.

[holdinon2hope]

Attaching..does give so much onsite to the Mlcer n some Ow in their lives.

[Bailmor]

moment, this is a very informative piece of writing that gave a great insight into the MLC's thoughts and actions.  I appreciate this account to try and understand exactly what my MLCER W is going through.  Excellent information!  Can't wait for Part 2.

[Ready2Transform]

Thank you so much for posting this.  It's helping me very much accept some parts of this that I was trying to avoid.  Definitely food for thought. 

[stayed]

Uk, I have to respond to your belief that the MLCer doesn't realize the pain and chaos they are creating around their actions and behaviour.  My h definitely knew his family were spiraling downward.  He knew the kids were trying to make sense of the senselessness of it all and that I was literally gutted. HE KNEW IT!

Now, maybe not ALL MLCer's are as aware as my h was.  I look at Mitzpah's husband and he just merrily when on his way.  Reached out and scooped his children right along with him.  The only time he shows any awareness that this is PAINFUL, is when he deals with Mitzpah.  For example, he went quietly to her room to tell her he was divorcing her.  Yet, so far he has not.

I think Mitzpah h, honestly doesn't think it is causing his children any problems whatsoever.  His children literally bend over backwards to be with their father.  In fact, her children seem to despair if they don't get to be with their father and as often as possible.  So to him, he doesn't see it causing anybody any suffering whatsoever, other then Mitzpah.  He accepts no blame about any of the negative things that his children are doing, ie. cutting, not treating gf's very nice, rude to their mother... etc. etc. But he sure is aware of the pain and suffering it is causing Mitzpah. 

I know they are depressed.  Anybody with eyes can see that.  Yes it is tragic, but even this man's wife, HAD MOVED ON when he finally found his way out of his crisis. 

Hugs Stayed

[OldPilot]

Uk, I have to respond to your belief that the MLCer doesn't realize the pain and chaos they are creating around their actions and behaviour.  My h definitely knew his family were spiraling downward.  He knew the kids were trying to make sense of the senselessness of it all and that I was literally gutted. HE KNEW IT!

Now, maybe not ALL MLCer's are as aware as my h was.  I look at Mitzpah's husband and he just merrily when on his way.  Reached out and scooped his children right along with him.  The only time he shows any awareness that this is PAINFUL, is when he deals with Mitzpah.  For example, he went quietly to her room to tell her he was divorcing her.  Yet, so far he has not.

I think Mitzpah h, honestly doesn't think it is causing his children any problems whatsoever.  His children literally bend over backwards to be with their father.  In fact, her children seem to despair if they don't get to be with their father and as often as possible.  So to him, he doesn't see it causing anybody any suffering whatsoever, other then Mitzpah.  He accepts no blame about any of the negative things that his children are doing, ie. cutting, not treating gf's very nice, rude to their mother... etc. etc. But he sure is aware of the pain and suffering it is causing Mitzpah. 

I know they are depressed.  Anybody with eyes can see that.  Yes it is tragic, but even this man's wife, HAD MOVED ON when he finally found his way out of his crisis. 

Hugs Stayed

I was hoping Stayed would comment about this.

I think the real point of all this is BOUNDARIES.

If the LBS has NO BOUNDARIES, which unfortunately most LBS's here fit that category then
we have enabled their depression.
I believe that Stayed is correct and that they do know that they are causing turmoil but they have been enabled for years and dont know that they should stop.

In this way we can end up prolonging the crisis.

DETACH, LET GO and have BOUNDARIES are the steps we need to take.

[stayed]

I agree completely OLD Pilot! 

DETACH, LET GO and have BOUNDARIES are the steps we need to take.

We all need the T-shirt and poster, to remind ourselves!

Hugs Stayed

[Mitzpah]

Now, maybe not ALL MLCer's are as aware as my h was.  I look at Mitzpah's husband and he just merrily when on his way.  Reached out and scooped his children right along with him.  The only time he shows any awareness that this is PAINFUL, is when he deals with Mitzpah.  For example, he went quietly to her room to tell her he was divorcing her.  Yet, so far he has not.

I think Mitzpah h, honestly doesn't think it is causing his children any problems whatsoever.  His children literally bend over backwards to be with their father.  In fact, her children seem to despair if they don't get to be with their father and as often as possible.  So to him, he doesn't see it causing anybody any suffering whatsoever, other then Mitzpah.  He accepts no blame about any of the negative things that his children are doing, ie. cutting, not treating gf's very nice, rude to their mother... etc. etc. But he sure is aware of the pain and suffering it is causing Mitzpah. 

I think that is a fair assessment, but what does it have to do with boundaries (in my particular case)?

I don't pursue, I have practically no contact with my h. unless initiated by him, he has recently gone back to on and off mode.

I am detached and have let go... H. has NOTHING to do with me at all. He contacts me when he needs something and that is it. I send him happy birthday/happy christmas, easter, new year messages as I would a distant relative. We share expenses related to the kids on occasion but it is pure business.

The boundaries are his and I do not overstep them.

I just find myself dealing with the fallout with my kids.

Just curious...

[living with Hope]

Excellent question you have asked there Mitzpah.  I am very interested to see the dialogue that comes from it.

My stitch is different but I do belive my husband is not aware of the pain that he is/has caused or the extent of it with the children.  Mine too seem to only want time with him and deny him very little if at all nothing. 
The boundaries have been set but more on my husband's end than anything and I am not crossing them anymore. So I am intrigued....

[Zendog]

I'm attaching on as well. I want to see how it ends.

My XW sounds very much like Mitzpahs. Although I'll add any boundary I've established has been met with some stern testing. I view it as a control issue. I will say that I do believe my MLCer knows full well what they did but just doesn't acknowledge it's impact on the kids. I think they are able to ignore the damage because they think ultimately everyone will e better in the end. That it's just temporary pain but they are so clearly right that they think it will work out.

The irony is that it does. With everyone except for them because of how long it takes them to figure out they are responsible for their own happiness. They keep waiting for it to be bestowed upon them until they ultimately get it. At least I hope they do.

[Hmmm]

Interesting discussion guys. I admit I've been an enabler as I feel so bad for him being depressed.

My only boundary has been that he comes when he says he will. He was testing me to the extreme on this one and I was a doormat. As soon as I stated that I needed to trust he would come, he came at exactly the right time.

I appreciate this more than I can say.

I'm not sure what other boundaries to set though
X

[stayed]

Zendog... you said it all for me.  I truly believe they know what they are doing.  I also agree that they think and believe ... "it is for the best"!  I know for a fact, that they are right... accept as you said... for everybody but them.  We all learn, grow and bloom.  They wallow in misery until they figure out...THEY are responsible for their own happiness.

We figure that out quickly, right at the beginning of this.  They... poor, lost darlings, figure out way towards the end, if at all, when it is too late. Mind you, if they are able to FORGIVE themselves, they are able to find someone new, not some sordid OW, who will settle for "whatever that is"... but a real, loving person.  They can have a brand new, good life, but I believe they will always feel some regret, for the life they let go. 

Hugs Stayed

[kikki]

Because my H has shown some moments of awareness of the damage and destruction (at times), or maybe this is only when he has chosen to articulate his awareness to me, I do know that it is there, at least for brief periods.

Should I ever bring it up again, he defends his position.  Is this denial, or is this the 'fog' rolling back in?  We may never know.

I think he is such a confused mess in his head (and soul  ), that he has reverted to his FOO style of 'coping', which is to carpet sweep and carry on. 
Drives me bonkers, but the more I learn about how they actually functioned, and the sinister stuff that was carpet swept, the more I understand how my MLCer is able to do it now to us.

What a mess they are.

[stayed]

No argument there Kikki, THEY are a MESS!!    It is actually totally bazaar.  The problem is, these partners of ours, were truly good partners.  Wonderful fathers/mothers/partners in every good sense out there... THEN THIS CRISIS STRUCK! 

Makes it so difficult to let go, because most of us, really had had wonderful lives!

Hugs Stayed

[kikki]

Nodding my head Stayed, nodding my head.

[blackice]

mine is more aware now of what he is doing than he was. before he was adamant about how this was the best for everyone now he is realizing the kids miss him and he and i are hurting from it all. he is more aware yet he is also more stubborn about making it all work that he is driving himself crazier.

[kikki]

he is more aware yet he is also more stubborn about making it all work that he is driving himself crazier.

Blackice, do you mean he's more stubborn about making his life of escape work?

If so, I am seeing exactly the same thing with my MLCer

[blackice]

yes he is being more stubborn about making his escape life work. he even recognizes he isn't happy there yet he refuses to let it go. he has to work through it on his own, but he has already ended up in the crisis center once already so i hope he figures it out soon for his own mental health.

[Ready2Transform]

Nodding here, too.  And I would love to be enlightened enough to say that I love my husband so much, that if this is what it takes for his "spiritual journey" - the sacrifice of everything I hold dear - I would gladly give it for him to be whole.  But frankly, it just makes me want to gag.  If this guy is on some Buddhist retreat blowing about how he wouldn't trade back every one night stand just for one day of the 6 years he missed with his daughters, because it made him some sort of great man now, then to hell with that.  Ego still fully engaged!  I hope part two has something acknowledging his wife's struggle.  Because honestly - it still sounds his remorse over the loss of his family is all about him.  Do they every FULLY get it?!  Of are we, in the end, just so worn down, there's no fight left in us? 

I know it seems somehow wonderful to see this man, in the end, choose his wife as his healer.  But what has she gone through in the meantime?  What had to be destroyed to make her the woman who had 'moved on'?  I'm just really questioning it all.  And I still have no doubt that his tipping point, besides the chemical effects of the depression all of those life events put him in, was probably treatable low T given his age.  But he DID make choices.  This isn't an amnesia fog.  It really makes me think about what and who exactly I'm standing for, even in the best case scenario.

[Musica]

Very interesting discussion/ story. Joining to hear the next instalment!

Thanks xx

[kikki]

Ego still fully engaged!  I hope part two has something acknowledging his wife's struggle.  Because honestly - it still sounds his remorse over the loss of his family is all about him.  Do they every FULLY get it?!  Of are we, in the end, just so worn down, there's no fight left in us? 

Glad you articulated that Ready.  I'm wondering the same thing.
Especially for the ones who dribble on 'forever' and cause far more destruction that the earlier returners.

yes he is being more stubborn about making his escape life work. he even recognizes he isn't happy there yet he refuses to let it go. he has to work through it on his own, but he has already ended up in the crisis center once already so i hope he figures it out soon for his own mental health.

Sorry to hear that Blackice, but I do know what you mean.  Living through the same thing here.

[Anjae]

By the end, the "crashing in depression" part began to tell us something new.  Like L & others here expressed, how does this actually happen?

The crashing depression? Stress and agitation. Rock botton? According to my cousin and other former MLCers I know, one day they can no longer carry on, they have the aha aha moment. Would say it has something to do with the crazy hormones getting the best of them and they left drained and flat. Rock bottom depression (Liminality) being a time of more calm (compared to Replay) may allow their bodies and minds to go back a little to the way it was before.

Too bad many of them don't comprehend this until it is too late.

Or they comprehend but are trapped in their fog?

OW/OM are a distraction, but one that cause too much damages and allows the MLCer to keep running. It is irrelevant who the OW/OM are, the fact they exist prolongs the crisis. It would be very different if MLC did not had a OW/OM. Or if the affair was like normal ones.

What about our less energetic MLCers, the ones who creep along, and never have that endorphin crashing, adrenaline fading WTF hangover... how long do they take?  Ten, fifteen years?

Less, I think. And judging from my wallower cousin, whose whole crisis was much shorter than super high energy Mr J, a wallower can be much faster than an high energy MLCer.

Interesting, Albatross.

So, J, your MLCer friend, like many other MLCers, does not regret the damage he caused, maybe because he is still friends with his x-wife, and like many other MLCer has a nice post crisis live. It is often the less fortunate LBS who ends up with a not so cool life.

OP, detach, let go and boundaries are not going to bring them out of crisis. Let alone vanishers. Vanishers have no contact with the LBS and their crisis only ends when it ends. Ironically I still think if I had not turned my uber clinger into a vanisher his crisis would had been shorter. Or maybe not.

Putting more pressure upon the already pressured and stressed LBS, give them one more thing to worry: enabling the MLCer depression, is not fair. And does not make sense. If MLC is an individual crisis and a MLCer is going to do what they will do no matter what, no point in adding to the LBS burdens by making a LBS feel like we are responsible for their depression. We are not. Nor for how long it lasts.

The problem is, these partners of ours, were truly good partners.  Wonderful fathers/mothers/partners in every good sense out there... THEN THIS CRISIS STRUCK! 

It is the fact that they were good partners that makes it a crisis. If they have always been this way there was no crisis, just their normal selves. Therefore, the issues must be the crisis and not the person. On the other hand the crisis is the person while the crisis last. Catch 22.

Ego still fully engaged!  I hope part two has something acknowledging his wife's struggle.  Because honestly - it still sounds his remorse over the loss of his family is all about him.  Do they every FULLY get it?!  Of are we, in the end, just so worn down, there's no fight left in us? 

Yep, he seems to still be full of himself. No remorse? Really? There may be no fight left is us but that is because we said: enough, not one more once of energy waisted in nut MLCer. Everyone here knows if I would go back I would had divorced on the spot and would not waste a minute with Mr J.

And since I think MLC is about stress and other hormones out of balance, for me this is all a bit senseless. All it would require it would be to balance the levels.

[bipolared]

he is more aware yet he is also more stubborn about making it all work that he is driving himself crazier.

Blackice, do you mean he's more stubborn about making his life of escape work?

If so, I am seeing exactly the same thing with my MLCer

That's interesting.  My H says he is not happy about anything and that he is "reeling in the consequences of his decision" but he will not go back on it. 

[Pixiegirl]

In this way we can end up prolonging the crisis.

DETACH, LET GO and have BOUNDARIES are the steps we need to take.

Exactly what I did OP! I assisted in prolonging it because I had NO BOUNDARIES. As I learn more and realize , my H has been at this MLC since late 2007.

[Anjae]

You need to tell me how did I prolong Mr J crisis, OP, but for lack of contact. Have left in May 2007 back home, have not seen him since May 2008. Never talk unless may lawyer wants me to. More distance and silence would be difficult. Mr J crisis is still in full Replay mode.

[Pixiegirl]

And I still have no doubt that his tipping point, besides the chemical effects of the depression all of those life events put him in, was probably treatable low T given his age.

My H just told me that his doc put him on the T gel. This should be an interesting new road to see what happens. I just found out today since this is the first time he has talked to me in 4 months.

[xyzcf]

OP, detach, let go and boundaries are not going to bring them out of crisis. Let alone vanishers. Vanishers have no contact with the LBS and their crisis only ends when it ends.

Putting more pressure upon the already pressured and stressed LBS, give them one more thing to worry: enabling the MLCer depression, is not fair. And does not make sense. If MLC is an individual crisis and a MLCer is going to do what they will do no matter what, no point in adding to the LBS burdens by making a LBS feel like we are responsible for their depression. We are not. Nor for how long it lasts.

I agree with Anjae on this. I really don't know what are the boundaries that OP is talking about?

I know, from talking with OP and others, there is this "suggestion" that the MLCer has to be made to feel that they have lost or are losing their LBSer but I don't agree with that. There really is not any proof that this is what turns them around.

In being a "lighthouse" we show them that their anchor is still here. We are their safe place but they will not come home until they have accomplished the tasks that they must do to end their crisis.

Can we extend their crisis? Perhaps if we are begging and pleading with them. Or causing them problems by attacking them in some way. Maybe, but we don't really know that either.

MLC will take as long as it will take. We do seem to have knowledge about what some of the triggers might be that starts them down the tunnel, but why and when it ends, I don't think there is any known reasons that it ends. They seem to wake up one day.

I know when I was a teenager, the things that I engaged in, the rebelliousness, at some point I changed and went into more adult behavior. Saw that with my daughter as well.

Each of us have their own boundaries that we consider vital. For me, if he were seeing an OW, I would NOT be having contact with him but many LBSers continue to be intimate with their spouse throughout the crisis.

OP, just for curiosity sake, could you define and give some specific examples of boundaries that you think need to happen to hurry up this crisis?

[Anjae]

Since some MLCers, like mine, have lost their LBS, and remain in crisis, one could argue that for some MLCers loosing the LBS prolongs the crisis. Isn't there also something about it they no longer have someone to return to they may get stuck?

So, pretty, the LBS is damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

But OP cannot give examples that would worry up the crisis. From what RCR writes, the crisis cannot be worry up, only prolonged. Which, of course, in a countersense. If it can be prolonged it can be shortened. Or none it possible.

When I was a teenager, at a point I become very rebellious. Even left home and lived with someone. Did something made me return? Yes, my grandmother. She was able to reach to me. I had enough of looking for my many siblings and just left. My mother was not listening, so, no more talking, action.

But it was different, I knew exactly why I had left and did not wanted to return. My grandmother guarantee me that things would not be the same and made sure they were not. She become even closer to me, supervising for me. 

[Pixiegirl]

Ok so here's my 2 cents on what I think on boundaries and how I may have prolonged the true crisis.....but this is just for me and what I think. It doesn't mean that I think this for everyone or every case here.

I went along with H's horrible behavior. I also fought with him, begged, pleaded, turned a blind eye a lot of the time. I think if I would have been stronger with a boundary by saying leave and don't come back until you have it together, H would not have continued his nonsense and destroyed so much of our lives. Now do I think it would have changed the crisis? No. Do I think it would shorten it? In some way, yes. Because he would have been out of here much sooner and gone straight in to his youth seeking crazy behavior and might be burned out by now. Now, I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion or make anyone believe my beliefs. Will I ever know the answer? No. But I also take responsibility for my part in all of this as I was no angel. We fed off of each other. Maybe if I would have removed myself sooner he would have had to face himself sooner ALONE. I wouldn't have been as hurt or blamed for much of what he was feeling for such a long time.

Basically, the boundaries should have been set for myself and I would be much further ahead right now in the journey. With less emotional wounds and less heartache.

Just my take. My story. And how I feel.

Hugs

[Anjae]

Mr J left before OW1 was made public. There was a little beg and plead, but that was some 8 years ago. Early 2008, when OW1 was no more, Mr J wanted to date me. I told him no. He was still in Replay (in the exact same place he was when he left and where he is today).

Could his crisis been shorter if I had let him be closer to me, date him back then and so on? Probably not. He would just had been cake eating for years. And I would have had no peace.

[trusting]

I too don't see what boundaries have to do with the length of the crisis.  Boundaries are to protect us and to not let MLCers just run rampant over our lives.  I can't see how it has any bearing on how long it takes to make it through. 

[SSG]

I went along with H's horrible behavior. I also fought with him, begged, pleaded, turned a blind eye a lot of the time. I think if I would have been stronger with a boundary by saying leave and don't come back until you have it together, H would not have continued his nonsense and destroyed so much of our lives. Now do I think it would have changed the crisis? No. Do I think it would shorten it? In some way, yes. Because he would have been out of here much sooner and gone straight in to his youth seeking crazy behavior and might be burned out by now. 

I told my H a few days after BD "I cannot stop you, so go and get it out of your system, knock yourself out.  But she does not get you in the end" 
He stayed a little over 2 months before he finally left.  During those two months, I gave him a lot of space.  I had found the HS website and one day, when he was thinking clearly, even told him what I learned about a MLC (he told me he thinks he is having one).  Told him it will take a min. of 2 years to which he quickly replied, "Oh god, I hope it does not last that long" and said it could even go as long as 7 years.  H nearly fainted. 

SSG

[paradigmshift]

Today he has no regrets.  He is on very good terms with his XW and her partner as well as his daughters.  He has found someone else to share his life with, someone more suited to the path he is taking as a practicing Buddhist.

This is the reason why I have decided to move on with my life. If he comes back before I have then we'll see if we can get past the hurt, but I am excited to move on to a new life with perhaps a new man. I never knew if my relationship with my ex is how a relationship should be. I had nothing to compare it with. As my friend once told me, she thought her first boyfriend was good to her until she met the second one.

[a]

Hi All

Just to elaborate J has no regrets because of who he has become and believes this path led him to a life filled with joy and peace.  Of course he is very sorry for the pain he caused his wife and daughters.  He has made a heartfelt apology to his family and he acknowledges if he had been aware of his actions at the time he certainly would not have chosen this path. 

As a Buddhist he has taken the path of do no harm which entails right thinking and right doing.  However this is a path he arrived at, after having caused a lot of damage - he is very aware of this and what he is responsible for.  By the same token he has made peace with his XW and daughter's, this family is healed and they seem to have moved past the anger that we still hold on to.  I think its because J has made every effort to apologise and make right his wrongs.

This is a unique situation and not typical of most MLCers - I think. That's why I said that J has a courageousness I do not see in most people including myself.  I do not think my XH will ever apologise for what he has done, the fact that he has been unwilling to face me since BD shows his lack of remorse and his need to create the illusion that all is well and that he didn't cause that much damage or if he is aware of the damage he has soften the idea by believing that it was the best for all concerned.

I have absolutely no expectations that XH will ever face me and apologise.  He has moved on with his life and OW is his new life even though in the beginning he cheated on her like J did to his OW.  I do not believe XH is no longer cheating on OW today - I think fear of being alone may be the reason or maybe this is not a MLC and XH found someone better suited to who he is.  I will never know the truth and I realise that J's experiences are not necessarily my XH's experience.

J has really taught me a lot about acceptance and that my life has value and that one day I will be in a place where I can love XH without expectation and truly wish him well.  J says the day I reach that point I will have finally found acceptance and the ultimate freedom - peace.

So may we all find that elusive state of forgiveness that still seems to evade us as we vacillate between compassion and anger for our XH's.

take care
moment

[kikki]

As a Buddhist he has taken the path of do no harm which entails right thinking and right doing.  However this is a path he arrived at, after having caused a lot of damage - he is very aware of this and what he is responsible for.  By the same token he has made peace with his XW and daughter's, this family is healed and they seem to have moved past the anger that we still hold on to.  I think its because J has made every effort to apologise and make right his wrongs.

Thanks for coming back to clarify, moment.
I think that would be hugely different.  If any of our MLCers also made every effort to apologise and right their wrongs, I am sure it would shift something in us.
It must be one of the hardest things in the world to do, without that. 
Although we all know we need to aim for that place, for our own sakes.

[paradigmshift]

I have forgiven my ex but the hurt still remains. I am still on antidepressants. I am trying to work on the business where he left off, but that is proving to be extremely difficult as it is not in my field of expertise and he never allowed me to get involved so I hardly know anything about it. I just want to make sure that he has fewer regrets when he comes out of the crisis (he let the business go to $hit and fired all the employees and ruined relationships with some clients).

I understand that those whose marriage had been wonderful would want to stand 100%, but there were incompatibility issues between my ex and I. I want the best for him despite what he had done and if he finds someone which makes the relationship a vacation instead of an ongoing battle because they are more equally yoked, I would be very very happy for him. I know he loved me very very much and so did I, maybe a little too much. He wanted to give up on the relationship so many times it is impossible to count, but I held on like armageddon. I want to be kinder to myself now, to not wait for him faithfully when he might not ever return. But if he does, at least something, if not someone, would still be waiting for him.

[serenity]

I really believe it doesn't matter what we do or how we behave towards our H's.

I tried to stop my H's behaviour and stop him wrecking our life. He moved out quickly and got a new home. He's been gone over 4 years. He's mostly been a boomerang, at times clinging and now we've entered yet another new phase mostly at my instigation as I told him I no longer wished to hear from him as he's worse than ever at this present time!

I've tried to be understanding, compassionate and help him. He's stayed with me every w/e for the last year BUT none of it makes any difference or changes anything. He STILL blames me and still can't forgive me!!!

X

[stayed]

Nodding here, too.  And I would love to be enlightened enough to say that I love my husband so much, that if this is what it takes for his "spiritual journey" - the sacrifice of everything I hold dear - I would gladly give it for him to be whole.  But frankly, it just makes me want to gag.  If this guy is on some Buddhist retreat blowing about how he wouldn't trade back every one night stand just for one day of the 6 years he missed with his daughters, because it made him some sort of great man now, then to hell with that.  Ego still fully engaged!  I hope part two has something acknowledging his wife's struggle.  Because honestly - it still sounds his remorse over the loss of his family is all about him.  Do they every FULLY get it?!  Of are we, in the end, just so worn down, there's no fight left in us? 

I know it seems somehow wonderful to see this man, in the end, choose his wife as his healer.  But what has she gone through in the meantime?  What had to be destroyed to make her the woman who had 'moved on'?  I'm just really questioning it all.  And I still have no doubt that his tipping point, besides the chemical effects of the depression all of those life events put him in, was probably treatable low T given his age.  But he DID make choices.  This isn't an amnesia fog.  It really makes me think about what and who exactly I'm standing for, even in the best case scenario.

Just about shook my head off while nodding to EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THIS!  I too want to hear his wife and daughter's story. I think children and spouses that move on, do forgive, quite easily.  Once the pain has stopped, why not forgive, especially if you found somebody to share your life quite happily with. 

I'm really glad he has been able to "forgive" himself, accept the pain he dished out and now "seemingly" enjoys his new found "spirituality" and life. 

As for boundaries.  Anything that prevents the LBS from constantly picking the scab off their wound and revving up their EXPECTATION LEVELS... is a good thing.  Every LBS has mentioned that when they WITHDRAW from their MLCer, he/she starts pursing, even you have noticed that Xyz.  Why do you think that is?  Our MLCer's are used to our unconditional love, attention and support, when we withdraw that... THEY NOTICE! 

Now this isn't some game (although it could easily become that if we were to allow it).  Allowing yourself to hurt and hurt and hurt, cannot be a good thing. LEARNT HELPLESSNESS, springs to mind!  You might say, "you can't help it", I beg to differ, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE who can help it.  If you were in pain, physical pain, you would go to your doctor and find out what was causing it.  You would do whatever you had to do to rid yourself of that pain... such as a knee or hip replacement/physio/painkillers.  Unless, you (LBS) suffers from depression/bi-polar/mental disorder, then you can control your mental outlook.   

Boundaries are for ourselves.  If they help in ANYWAY to bring the MLCer out of the crisis... great... BONUS even!!!  The truth is, it doesn't matter as the LBS heals faster and better when they take control over their personal WELL BEING!

Anjae, we don't know what you did or didn't do.  Your h hardly ever comes near you, not sure what boundaries you could impose, perhaps just get that divorce you keep talking about and be done with him.  What I don't understand is why you are still in so much pain.  What are you doing for yourself to over come and get on with your life. To me, you are hurting just as much as the first time I read your post.  Are you suffering from depression? 

I am not trying to be argumentative and quarrelsome.  This information is extremely helpful and confirms what we all thought we knew about MLC, BUT, what does it changer for the LBSer, if anything?  What I take from this mans disclosures is more "proof" that the LBS, has to get on with their life.  If the MLCer exits the crisis, wonderful.  Great.  His wife got the "closure" many of us claim we are looking for.  To know that the MLCer truly REGRETS tossing the spouse and family out the window and pursue a life of raging hormones and debauchery.   Nice to know, we weren't as "worthless" as we felt, at the time. 

I wonder how much satisfaction that "apology/recognition" from the MLCer, really provides the LBSer?  Again, I would love to hear from this man's wife and daughters.  That would be some interesting reading, at least for me it would be.  Somehow, we have once again, made this ALL ABOUT THE MLCer!!!  Only one side of the story.  Mmmmmmmmm, story of our lives eh?

Hugs Stayed

[Albatross]

Really loving unconditionally self, other people, wold, nature, life haven't nothing with enabling, neither expectations in my opinion. One should reach inner balance, internal happiness, peace with self and world which is not so easy to achieve. If and when one come to that place state of mind nothing matters anymore because ones libido flow from soul to the world or if You like it, one become full of love which then radiate to the space, people, nature.

We all know that You can't make someone to be different, neither self. Whatever LBS do or not do, I strongly believe will not have any impact on MLCer crisis, neither prolonging, shortening. If they fall you can't save them, only they can do if they have knowledge, wisdom, life energy and so on.

Their path is their own, after all we all are born alone, live alone and will die alone it is natural.

[a]

Hi Ready2transform and Stayed

There is nothing I can say about J that would move you past your pain and anger.  You seem to be angry that J has moved on and that his XW and daughters are holding onto pain but that is your perception.  I have met J's XW and we had a long chat.  In short I remember one of the things she said was that when J had come out of his crisis and started his journey of healing he desperately wanted to reconcile, but she had moved on - it was her choice not to reconcile, because in spite of the pain and the hurt she experienced, she also fell in love with someone else, someone that her daughter's adore. They have been together now for 7+ years and from what J says it is a healthy loving relationship and his daughters have the best of both world a loving mom and two dads that spoil them.

She also said and I am paraphrasing something like - she was able to truly forgive J because of who he was trying to become - she could see he had become a much better human being than he was when they were married. 

I truly believe that J's XW is happy she has moved past the pain of what has happened and maybe this is what we need to do before we can truly forgive not "forgive". Which lets face it to "forgive" lacks sincerity and maybe is done with a hidden agenda.

Whatever we do I have come to realise must be done with integrity.  I know when I was still in contact with XH I would be kind and express compassion but it was not sincere because after every contact I would feel the pain and the anger once again.  I was being kind because I so desperately wanted H back I was using kindness as a tool of manipulation. 

Today I have no contact with XH, it was at my request about a year ago because I knew that until I could relate to XH with sincerity I was simply hurting myself by denying what I truly felt.  Which in most circumstances was anger and a deep desire to take my revenge (I have evidence I could have sent OW of XH cheating) plus I have crude photo's OW used to entice XH away from our marriage.  I thought of many scenarios were I could use this information to exact my revenge to hurt XH and OW as much as possible.  I never did but boy did I come close on several occasions. 

It was J that made me feel it was okay to express this dark side of myself.  No-one was expecting me to be the epitome of grace when I felt the opposite.  It was a pressure I was placing on myself for various reasons one of which was because I wanted XH to see what a good person I was and maybe that would encourage him to come back.

At the end of the day until we have processed our darkest thoughts and feelings we are still bound to the MLCer, we are the ones making it all about the MLCer.  J's XW may actually have done the right thing.  She did not at the time read up on MLC as she was not as concerned as we are trying to figure out the why's, she simply mourned the loss of her H, processed her pain and went into counselling.  She made herself the focus, she accepted Xh's decision that the M was over.  She also did not spend a lot of time hoping for reconciliation and made every effort to GAL which she did.

Maybe we need to look at how we are processing things maybe in our search for answers and guarantees we are making our journey that much longer.

I hope this has not offended anyone - it is said with the best of intentions.

take care
moment

[stayed]

Good points there moment!  Lot's of food for thought and I am certainly more then willing to examine my reaction to this story.  I am pleased that the entire family all ended up happier then they probably would have been if they had stayed together.  His xw if a very generous woman, for sure.  I can only assume that if you are fortunate enough to run across a new partner that makes you happier then you ever were, then that would help as well.  I think though, it should be noted that J's Xw and new partner have ONLY been together 7 years, most of us were still very happily married at that point in our marriages to our MLCer's.

I will read again what you have written and give it more thought. Thank you for posting this.

Yours Stayed

[Thunder]

This whole discussion is so helpful.  So many good points brought up.

It made me wonder if what I'm doing is delaying my X's exit from the tunnel.
I see him all the time and we do a lot together.  I only went nc once in all this.  It lasted a couple of weeks, then he contacted me and we've been together ever since.

I guess it has a lot to do with him not having an ow and he has almost had no Monster at all.
If there would have been either I doubt we would be seeing each other.

I do see him very slowly coming out of this but still has not, that I can tell, done any inner work on himself.
He has occasionally said he was sorry for something, but no big apology for breaking my heart and divorcing me.
I seriously don't think he feels the hurt he caused me.  If he does he covers it up pretty good.
Even his depression is more about him.

He does show more concern for me and will actively help with a problem I am having.  He will do small things like buy me something when he's shopping.  It will be something thoughtful so I know he made an effort when buying it.
But then there is still the selfishness there, too.

His flirting is gone.  I used to feel awful when I was with him and he would blatantly smile, chat or stare at some woman.  He no longer does that. 

Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe I shouldn't have continued seeing him.  Maybe I should have left him to himself.  Made him figure things out without me around.  I don't know.
Instead I remained in his life.

You guys are giving me food for thought.

As far as a heartfelt apology?  I think any one of us would welcome that.  It would make healing so much easier.
Even if your friends W did find someone else it must have felt good to her to know he was sincerely sorry.

[31andcounting]

Moment, thank you for sharing   I have not been on the site much( just a little breather needed)  and when I read this, honestly tears ran down my face as I saw my H !!!

We are reconciling and the explanation talks, the bits and pieces I am receiving/seeing are so very similar in J's description.  It could of been written by my H. Scary almost surreal.
Boundaries are as individual as the LBS and MLCer are so that discussion although good, some people will agree and some will disagree.
thanks again~ this is a wonderful site, hard habit to break !!
(hugs)
31andcounting

[trusting]

Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe I shouldn't have continued seeing him.  Maybe I should have left him to himself.  Made him figure things out without me around.  I don't know.
Instead I remained in his life.

Thunder, I personally am not sure this has any bearing.  I am around my husband a lot (he still lives here). He is still in crisis and has been for a few years.  I give him PLENTY of space, but he is around.  I know other LBS who are in a similar time frame to mine who choose no contact with their MLCers and their MLCers is still in crisis. 

There is no one size fits all.  While the script is eerily similar, no crisis is the same.

[xyzcf]

This whole issue of what a "boundary is" has me thinking. I tried to locate it in RCR's articles but cannot find specifically what I seek. Indeed, each LBSer can determine what she/he wishes to "tolerate". My example for me would be no contact if there was an OW.

Stayed stated:

As for boundaries.  Anything that prevents the LBS from constantly picking the scab off their wound and revving up their EXPECTATION LEVELS... is a good thing.

 

Agreed, but OP is insinuating that the LBSer can either speed up or slow down the crisis by setting boundaries.  I am not sure what specific things he means by that. I guess I am looking at more specific  examples of what boundaries could possibly make a difference in the outcome of the crisis. Perhaps setting rigid boundaries  might work in some cases but it may  also cause the MLCer to push further away if they think that the LBSer has set so many rules and boundaries that they are no longer approachable.

Every LBS has mentioned that when they WITHDRAW from their MLCer, he/she starts pursing, even you have noticed that Xyz.  Why do you think that is?  Our MLCer's are used to our unconditional love, attention and support, when we withdraw that... THEY NOTICE! 

Sorry, I have not noticed that Stayed in my particular case. I have withdrawn (that doesn't mean I am in no contact but there is no pursuit on my part) and it has not made any difference what so ever. Some of the contact that we have had over the years relates to major things like our daughter's wedding. Like you, I do not mean to be argumentative, but I remember us discussing that you would send you h emails from time to time, mainly discussing about the kids, sending him a picture of them now and then.

I get the impression that sometimes when we say set boundaries, that it means to go no contact and I think there is a difference between the two.

Boundaries are for ourselves.  If they help in ANYWAY to bring the MLCer out of the crisis... great... BONUS even!!!  The truth is, it doesn't matter as the LBS heals faster and better when they take control over their personal WELL BEING!

I totally agree and I think trusting also wrote the very same words. The boundaries that we set are for us, not to try and  change the outcome of the crisis.

What I take from this mans disclosures is more "proof" that the LBS, has to get on with their life.

Definitely in agreement. Our lives go on and too much time was wasted when the LBSer didn't have the energy to participate fully in life. Find your passions, go back to school, entertain friends, dance, howl at the moon.

However, and I may be the only one who thinks this,  but when I read "move on" or "get a life" it always seems to mean that you must seek a new partner in order to truly heal. It is great that this woman found a "new love" but then again who knows what type of marriage she would have had if she had been patient enough to wait for the crisis to end, for this man did want to come back, but as we often say, the LBSer has "moved on".

[Ready2Transform]

I have no emotional attachment to the ending of your friend's story, moment.  Pain and anger don't play in, but curiosity about the process and what we as LBS should cultivate our hope from.  As I said in my post, I believe we should have a true vision of what we are standing for, no sugar coating.  Perhaps, at 37 months post BD, I'm just at a far enough place of detachment where once I would have read this differently than I do now, and maybe that comes off as criticism.  It DOES make me look at the last three years of my life and wonder what the best I can hope for is, based upon what is likely a very good recovery from a personal breakdown.  In that sense, I have no problem analyzing the heck out of it and I need to take off the rose colored glasses to do that.

My husband was also a practicing Zen Buddhist for most of our relationship, after being raised a preacher's kid, vegetarian, peaceful man - now an atheist redneck hunter.  I know the flip is real, so I hold back saying, "If finding the middle path was they way, why didn't he just do this after the bankruptcy?".  They can't, or they don't.  Could have - that's what is the saddest of all.  And therein lies the gray area that we all have to navigate through as we watch our spouses make bad choice upon bad choice, knowing how this movie is probably going to end in their crash.

So that is why I am more concerned with the wife's tale.  I am glad for all recoveries.  People should not hurt, certainly not over first world problems that are so far detached from our 'truest' selves on this planet, no matter what.  And I love a comeback story, even non-MLC.  But I think of how devastating it must have been for that woman to go through the bankruptcy, to see her husband lose his essence, to encourage him to find it even when the money was probably not there for the rock climbing, etc., to be the rock for her daughters, and then to lose him anyway.  To probably suffer in the divorce because the money was no longer there.  To have to build herself up from rock bottom. 

That's where we ALL are.  When people come here as they start down this road, we shouldn't gloss over the possibility of all of these things for us.  As stayed said, still, eyes stay on the MLCer, because we want the elusive hope to know we are standing for a potential reason.  I say then, if we're going to look, we need to look with realistic eyes about what is really in store for us should we get what we wish for.

I have had apologies from my husband, during the first year, and again at our divorce hearing (even though he couldn't say the word "divorce", just motioned to the paperwork and said, "I'm sorry for all this.").  Continues in replay without throwing a molecule toward making amends toward anyone, not just me, so I know he's not fully cooked.  I can't imagine a world where an apology would mean anything until several years after recovery.  That seems to be where your friend is and hopefully he has made amends in ways other than words as well.  I'm assuming that's what is implied here. 

I am on my own spiritual path, and have been carried by that - and I'm not saying we shouldn't view the spiritual aspect of this.  But as a mentor here I wouldn't counsel someone to embrace the struggles someone else is putting them through because it will ultimately make them a better martyr.  Their spiritual journey (or lack thereof) is their own business, and, as was the point of my original post, I do not believe that we must suffer for the redemption of someone else, not even our spouses, our children, our parents.  Sometimes I think in the relief of seeing a recovery we lose awareness of what it took to get there, and we owe it to the newbies at least (and some of us entering the longer end, too, myself included) to be blunt. 

One thing your friend said really did strike me, and that was his statement about the loss of innocence.  I have felt that so many times throughout this, that THAT is the biggest loss.  I mourn it, still.  Very good to see in print that one of them gets that, too.

Just to throw in on the 'can we shorten/lengthen' debate - Another "no" here.  Nothing we do affects the CRISIS of another person.  I would like to say our choices affect the likelihood or not of a reconciliation - but they don't do that either!  Peruse the reconciliation thread.  Talk to people here and elsewhere who are in the  process of being or have already reconnected.  Each story is unique, and I've yet to hear one where the LBS' actions signified any great change either way.  With clingers, yes, they react to distancing.  It DID become a game to me when mine was a clinger, I will admit that!  But even as a vanisher, I get on with my life and lo and behold, I'll still get the prank calls, the covert contact through my website or third parties checking on me - who knows what brings it on!?   Not me.  But he's still deep in as far as I know, so not contacting didn't magically cook him.  

[Thunder]

The boundaries I have made were:

When my H wanted to go to a work party in the beginning of his crisis, I knew the house party was given by a woman (married and probably not interested) he worked with and he had asked to go running with him.
I asked him if he would have gone if he was still "happily" married?  He said..well no but we're getting a divorce.
I said...as long as we are STILL married and I am STILL your wife you will not disrespect me.  I think you can wait until you're single.
He never went and hasn't tried to do anything like that again.
My boundary was as long as we were still married I expected him to respect me as his wife.  What he did after the D was up to him.  I think it gave him a time line he could stick to.

I also stopped doing anything for him.  Nothing.  He wanted his freedom well doing things for yourself is part of that.  I wasn't his mother.  He had to face paying bills, washing his own clothes, etc., without any illusion I would do it for him.  He was divorcing me!  I no longer felt I needed to take care of him.

That's about it for me as far as boundaries.  I have made it known to him that if another woman comes into the picture I'm out of it.  He knows this because I did it with my first H.  He found an ow and I walked away.  Hurting but I never looked back.  He knows I don't share.

Not that this would stop him but it was worth saying out loud.  A little reminder.

I think boundaries can be for us or for them.  Just my opinion.
Sometimes they are meant to protect us from hurt and other times it is letting them know there is a line in the sand.

[trusting]

I think boundaries can be for us or for them.  Just my opinion.
Sometimes they are meant to protect us from hurt and other times it is letting them know there is a line in the sand.

Agreed.  I just don't think boundaries have any affect whatsoever on the crisis itself and the length of it. But yes, definitely if an MLCer chooses to honor them, certain behaviors may change. 

My husband was also a practicing Zen Buddhist for most of our relationship, after being raised a preacher's kid, vegetarian, peaceful man - now an atheist redneck hunter.

Good golly, Ready. It sounds like your husband must be having some sort of crisis of identity.    

Quote

    Every LBS has mentioned that when they WITHDRAW from their MLCer, he/she starts pursing, even you have noticed that Xyz.  Why do you think that is?  Our MLCer's are used to our unconditional love, attention and support, when we withdraw that... THEY NOTICE! 


Sorry, I have not noticed that Stayed in my particular case. I have withdrawn (that doesn't mean I am in no contact but there is no pursuit on my part) and it has not made any difference what so ever. Some of the contact that we have had over the years relates to major things like our daughter's wedding. Like you, I do not mean to be argumentative, but I remember us discussing that you would send you h emails from time to time, mainly discussing about the kids, sending him a picture of them now and then.

I would have to say that I also have not noticed any sort of pursuit or distance thing going in my situation either.  Possibly at the very beginning of the crisis when the light from the beginning of the tunnel was brighter, if I would pull away he would pursue a tiny bit, but in the darkest part of the tunnel, no.  However, my husband definitely does cycle toward or away from me.  It just doesn't seem to have any relationship to my actions or lack thereof. I remain quite consistent - polite but distant. 

[limitless]

Just my experience.....

When I withdrew.....(finally) - my MLCer vanished.  No pursuit.

Honestly, maybe that was what was going to happen (regardless) once we were divorced.  Who knows?

As for the LBS contributing to the length of the crisis?  I don't know.  I do believe staying in the drama feeds the energy...and feeds the Monster.

As far as the rest?  Quite honestly, I don't know if I care what my actions (or inactions) do for HIS crisis any longer. 

Now it is about me and my life.  His recovery (or not) is up to him.

Early on I "used" kindness as a manipulation to support his potential return.  Deep down I am still angry about it.  Deep down I am still very hurt.  Deep down I have a desire for "revenge" of some sort.  I don't know if those feelings will ever truly go away.  They have subsided and are not as strong as they once were.

Sometimes I think his miserable existence and the fact that his kids wants little (if anything) to do with him are enough.

JMHO.

L

[Dagolark]

Eh... I guess the boundary thing is pretty much a moot point with vanishers. Total silence for months. No amount of not pursuing on the LBS part seems to make a difference...

I think the thing is... boundaries need to be for us, for our wellbeing. If I were to keep thinking about my actions might push away or attract X I would go nuts... I can only focus on what's good for me.

[Mitzpah]

OP, detach, let go and boundaries are not going to bring them out of crisis. Let alone vanishers. Vanishers have no contact with the LBS and their crisis only ends when it ends. Ironically I still think if I had not turned my uber clinger into a vanisher his crisis would had been shorter. Or maybe not.

Putting more pressure upon the already pressured and stressed LBS, give them one more thing to worry: enabling the MLCer depression, is not fair. And does not make sense. If MLC is an individual crisis and a MLCer is going to do what they will do no matter what, no point in adding to the LBS burdens by making a LBS feel like we are responsible for their depression. We are not. Nor for how long it lasts.

Anjae, Thanks for posting this.

I agree, we already struggle to carry on living with all that is thrown our way.

I find that I need to operate from my own stable center and I can't really pay much attention to the antics of my h. thinking up boundaries when he has his own firmly in place.

I firmly believe in building bridges and not putting up walls so I welcome any overture in my direction as long as it is non-monster!

Stayed stated:

As for boundaries.  Anything that prevents the LBS from constantly picking the scab off their wound and revving up their EXPECTATION LEVELS... is a good thing.

 

Agreed, but OP is insinuating that the LBSer can either speed up or slow down the crisis by setting boundaries.  I am not sure what specific things he means by that. I guess I am looking at more specific  examples of what boundaries could possibly make a difference in the outcome of the crisis. Perhaps setting rigid boundaries  might work in some cases but it may  also cause the MLCer to push further away if they think that the LBSer has set so many rules and boundaries that they are no longer approachable.

Every LBS has mentioned that when they WITHDRAW from their MLCer, he/she starts pursing, even you have noticed that Xyz.  Why do you think that is?  Our MLCer's are used to our unconditional love, attention and support, when we withdraw that... THEY NOTICE! 

Sorry, I have not noticed that Stayed in my particular case. I have withdrawn (that doesn't mean I am in no contact but there is no pursuit on my part) and it has not made any difference what so ever. Some of the contact that we have had over the years relates to major things like our daughter's wedding. Like you, I do not mean to be argumentative, but I remember us discussing that you would send you h emails from time to time, mainly discussing about the kids, sending him a picture of them now and then.

I get the impression that sometimes when we say set boundaries, that it means to go no contact and I think there is a difference between the two.

Boundaries are for ourselves.  If they help in ANYWAY to bring the MLCer out of the crisis... great... BONUS even!!!  The truth is, it doesn't matter as the LBS heals faster and better when they take control over their personal WELL BEING!

I totally agree and I think trusting also wrote the very same words. The boundaries that we set are for us, not to try and  change the outcome of the crisis.

What I take from this mans disclosures is more "proof" that the LBS, has to get on with their life.

Definitely in agreement. Our lives go on and too much time was wasted when the LBSer didn't have the energy to participate fully in life. Find your passions, go back to school, entertain friends, dance, howl at the moon.

However, and I may be the only one who thinks this,  but when I read "move on" or "get a life" it always seems to mean that you must seek a new partner in order to truly heal. It is great that this woman found a "new love" but then again who knows what type of marriage she would have had if she had been patient enough to wait for the crisis to end, for this man did want to come back, but as we often say, the LBSer has "moved on".

I really don't see how we influence when we are in our own sphere.

I also agree that the pursuit/distance dance is mainly for clingers. My h. does not seem to react to me but then I don't really do anything - over these years I have steadily withdrawn. I don't see any pursuit.

You are not the only one who has the impression that 'move on' and 'get a life' are often linked to getting a new partner.

I AM sad and I miss my h.,  it is no secret that I am standing for the restoration of my marriage, so seeking a new partner is off the books for me. However, that does not mean that my life cannot have meaning and purpose in the meanwhile.

[a]

Hi All

Herewith part 2:  I am a little hesitant to post it as he does get quite philosophical - too explain this i need to let you know that some of the things he writes are from questions i had asked him both from a personal aspect as well as from a book that we were both reading at the time which had many theories by Carl Jung and Deepak Chopra's perspective on Carl Jung's theories.  Even though he writes it as one email he is answering these questions as he explains his journey
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Part 2 – the post mortem

My road to recovery was not easy – even though I had hit rock bottom and realised my ‘new’ life was not what I wanted –  the urge to sooth the pain with the last binge drink or sex with a stranger were strong especially on days where the emotional pain got too much for me.  I cannot say the journey was without its slip ups but as I started to deal with the real issues behind my complete dissatisfaction with life so the addictive pull of my self–destructive behaviours lessened. 

I discovered that what I had expressed in my crisis came from an unconscious self I had developed to cope with some difficulties experienced in my childhood and later in my young adulthood.  To cut a long story short as a child i did not feel  my parents love and I often felt emotionally abandoned.  This is not an excuse for my behaviour my actions lie squarely on my doorstep.  However in my search to discover  why I behaved in a way so contrary to who I thought i was –brought me to a place where I had to figure out what my emotional pain was telling me and how it got there in the first place.  Emotional pain is the same as a physical pain it is there to alert you to a problem.  If you have a broken limb the pain will alert you to make sure you have it healed, well the same goes with emotional pain – it is there to alert you to a healing that is required.  This healing cannot be done through suppression or avoidance but rather by confronting and dealing with the cause of the pain.  In fact,  a person’s  self-destructive behaviours during  crisis is more like a person taking pain killers to alleviate the pain without treating the cause of the pain.

 Dr Carl Jung stated “ Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is. At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions.”  For me my shadow developed during my childhood, it developed every time I felt unloved or abandoned for expressing a particular personality trait or emotion that my parents deemed as  ‘unacceptable’.  I have come to learn that I had spent a life time suppressing certain emotions in an attempt to become the person that I thought everyone expected me to be, especially my parents.  This started in my childhood where without intention my parents did not allow me to express certain emotional needs, and in so doing I began to see these emotions as a shameful part of me.  So instead of dealing with these emotions in an appropriate manner – how could I, I was a child and children do not have the skills to deal with their emotional needs -  I hid them in the dark crevices of my psyche, they became my shadow self, they became my shame, they became the demons which I came to fear.   I successfully managed to bury the demons in my unconscious for 41 years and deny that they were aspects of myself.  For 41 years I was the good guy, the upstanding guy – Mr. Dependable – the successful corporate guy with the perfect life.  As Carl Jung says “would you rather be the good person or a whole person”.  I was an incomplete being perceived as the good guy by all – and at times I even managed to convince myself of this illusionary self.

I have come to realise that I had nothing to be ashamed of, the darker qualities that were part of me are the opposites that enable me to recognise my higher self, my true goodness.  If I did not know cowardliness how would I recognise courage, if I did not know deceit how can I know truth, if I did not know dishonesty how would I know integrity.  We each have negative emotions that when they arise (or are reflected back to us through others in our surroundings) are there to be acknowledged, they are there to act as the guides to why you feel that way – your shadow is actually your friend not your enemy.  Like any story the villain makes the hero – in my crisis I became the villain in my life as I lived through the shadow.  Today I’m working at being the hero and it is an enriching experience, filled with hope and fulfilment.   By acknowledging and allowing those aspects of myself that I disliked to exist has encouraged me to deal with them in a more a constructive way – I have learnt to have compassion for myself and my human failings, and have stopped hiding behind a facade of expectation.  I’m beginning to live through conscious awareness as opposed to unconscious fear.  By being more aware of myself as a whole human being (with good and bad) I’ve begun to take leadership of my life as opposed to allowing myself to be led by those darker emotions into behaviours that are based on fear and as such  do not reflect my true self.  The thing to understanding myself as whole is as Deepak Chopra states  - to remove judgement and practice acceptance that everything in the universe works with polar opposites, electricity flows from positive to negative, there is day and night and so I’m both good and bad – it is what it is, it requires no judgement.  However, in order to live with joy and self-acceptance conscious choices about how I choose to express myself need to be made – I could either choose to live through the shadow which only yields self-loathing, loneliness, guilt, pain, and fear not only to myself but to the people i held most dear.  Or I can choose to live through a more authentic self, a self that uplifts the spirit and embraces a life of passion and joy .


My  crisis allowed many suppressed emotions to surface but instead of looking within I projected the blame onto my environment  – and mostly my wife.  She had let herself go since our youth, she had put on 30 pounds, and quite frankly was looking older.  I now know that my shame was more about my lack of self-worth, my sense of failure and I projected those feelings onto my wife and made this all her fault.  Other things I blamed her for was her lack of excitement, her disinterest in doing things with me and her focus on our daughters.  In my mind this gave me the excuse to flirt with another woman and start an affair.  If my wife was not going to validate me as I should be validated I was going to find someone else who would – I felt entitled, this was my God given right damn it – right? right!.  And so began the justification for my behaviour during my crisis. 

My wife’s initial emotional reaction to my affair while it made me feel guilty it also lent more evidence that I was doing the right thing, you see I would think and say – “she is difficult I cannot and should not have to live like this!!!!”.  As time went by my wife withdrew and stopped reacting, she started treating me with respect  and courtesy, this only exacerbated my resentment of her because she was no longer enabling my projections of everything being her fault.  You see I had set up my wife to fail she was dammed if she did and dammed if she didn’t.

I started to vacillate between guilt and avoiding the guilt by altering my projections and deciding that she was not really being kind she was using it to be manipulative – this view was encouraged by my affair partner and new friends, who would warn me about the woman ‘scorned’.  Yet apart from protecting herself and our daughters financially, my wife never became the vindictive scorned woman. So yet again it was just another projection as I had by now started to cheat on my affair partner and was being deceptive and manipulative towards her.  I would often lie about my marital status to these other women and in order to present the “good” guy image I would vilify my wife and caste the blame on her for our failed marriage.  Playing the heroic victim seemed to win me many points in luring woman to my bed and more importantly their understanding and empathy fed my need for attention and admiration which gave my failing self-esteem a temporary boost. 

Cheating on my affair partner did bring some guilt which I again justified by viewing the quality of our relationship as a trade off – she gave me everything I had complained about my wife not giving me – kinkier sex, thinner sexier body, participating in all my interests at the expense of her own – the trade off – I had money and paid for most things from expensive dinners to upmarket get always.  Furthermore, she had compromised her integrity by having an affair with me, like me she was not to be trusted, like me she had no honour – so she did not deserve my faithfulness.  I guess I blamed her for helping me break up my marriage.  And a deeper part of me knew that unlike my wife who fell in love with me when I was a penniless student with a beat up old car, who had loved me through my successes and failures – and still believed in me in spite of my failures – my affair partner being a young, corporate woman fell in love with the successful image I presented – so she ‘loved’ the image not the man behind the image.  My affair partner would not have given me a second glance if I had driven a moderate car instead of a luxury car or not spent the kind of money i spent on her – again a justification for my awful behavior.

I had become that comical pathetic middle aged guy who spends loads of money to keep a younger sexier woman at my side to show the world my success – no-one was fooled – I was like the proverbial teenager who takes up smoking to look cool – you fool yourself into believing the world is buying it, but the only people buying it are the parties involved - the rest of the world sees quite clearly through your pathetic attempts -  i had become a man trying to capture his lost youth and avoid the reality of aging and dying – how humiliating.

In truth my marriage may have had its problems but they were minuscule, the few problems that did exist could have been solved with some real honest talks.  Our marriage prior to my crisis was good – I trusted my wife, I loved her, she was my best friend and confidant (she had always supported me through thick and thin, through good and bad) and she knew me well, but at the time I was convinced I hated her. 

My lack of any happy memories during my crisis was a complete farce – I have a memory from one of the more earlier days (before the affair) when I came across a family holiday video – in it i was happy - i was goofing around with my wife and yet as i watched that man in the video clip he was a stranger to me.  That happy man could not be me as my memory served me I was unhappy for most of my marriage.  In the depth of denial I brushed off the video clip as a once off moment that was never repeated again during my marriage.  And yet there are albums filled with good times and many more videos that speak to a good solid and mostly happy marriage. That’s denial for you.

In the six years during the worst part of my crisis, I seldom visited my daughters I just could not stand seeing the haunted look in their eyes and so I made excuses not to see them.  During the two worst years of my crisis I only saw my daughters a couple of times two of which were on Christmas. My guilt over what I was doing to my wife and daughters overwhelmed me and sent me into overdrive abusing and using with higher intensity in an attempt to suppress the anxiety, the guilt, the loneliness and the sadness.  In my messed up mind I also managed to successfully blame them for this – so it was easy to justify to myself why I could not visit them – you see it was their fault they were making me feel bad about pursuing my life.  After all I was not stopping them from living their lives – these are the distortions of a mind living in crisis. My demons were well in control and I was merely their puppet.

Today, I write this in an attempt to take ownership for what I did by exposing my shadow to the light of knowledge and in so doing I have started to live a more fulfilled life – yes I regret losing the life I had – I realise it is what I wanted all along – with a few tweaks here and there.  My wife has lost the weight and has a new enthusiasm for life – she looks great.  She admits that she is grateful for my crisis because it forced her to take a good hard look at herself which enabled her to make the changes she had been putting off. She has made herself a priority in her life.  The contrast in how we both chose to deal with our pain amazes me, she chose a more conscious way to heal while I followed the more unconscious path – and there is a part of me that envies that she has less to be shameful of today. Although........ she often tells me this is my perception because she did go to the depths of despair too, she did experience her shadows and her shame, she felt her failure at losing me and our marriage.  None-the-less I can see she chose a more constructive path – I do not begrudge her this – it has made me more aware of her value as a mother to my children and it has filled me with pride that she was my wife and best friend because in her I also see that part of myself.

We both wish we could have somehow made these changes while remaining together.  I do not blame her for not wanting to reconcile – I know I broke it !! If the tables had been turned I wonder if I would have been as forgiving as she has been.  I suspect with all the demons that had been lurking in my psyche at the time I would probably have turned my back on her and not looked back.  My wife has been there in the background through all of this – in the beginning of my crisis, once she had stopped reacting, she made it clear if the time ever came when I needed her she would be there but as long as I was behaving in a self-destructive way and with so little respect for her and our daughters,  she would keep her distance – she was the only person I trusted enough to phone when I finally reached rock bottom. 

I have the deepest admiration for her strength of character and for her ability to forgive so completely.  I remember my 9th grade history teacher saying to our class when writing a test always trust your first answer it is invariably the correct one – well I should have trusted the first choice I made in terms of the woman I married and the family I created with her – they were the right choice.  What a pity that it is only hind sight that is 20/20.
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Hope this answers some of your questions

take care
moment

[31andcounting]

Thanks Moment
31

[stayed]

As for the LBS contributing to the length of the crisis?  I don't know.  I do believe staying in the drama feeds the energy...and feeds the Monster.

I love this and I totally agree with it!  No explanation required.

I also think our HEALING, our obvious growth, does effect them.  Event he vanisher.  I am always amazed at how much Limitless's h knows about what is going on in her home, with the kids and all kinds of things.  Especially, when he has very little contact with the children and ZILTCH with Limitless. I'm not sure who their "eyes and ears" are, but they are everywhere.  Ready2 also mentioned the prank calls, the covert contacts through 3rd. parties, whatever... for the most part your MLCer's are keeping TABS on you.  Trusting, perhaps your h doesn't pursue you when you withdraw, nor your's Xyz, I was pretty sure that your h had begun to make contact through emails after he saw you at your D's graduation.  You were very calm, gracious, controlled and distant, after that you began to get emails.  Maybe that's not pursuing, but you DID NOT PURSUE him at all during your d's graduation, and right afterwards, he began to send emails.  Silly stuff, your favourite football team wins and losses. 

The point is, that even though you think your MLCer's are not aware of you... it seems they somehow are keeping a VERY CLOSE eye on what you are doing.  I think as the LBS gets stronger and healthier, I think the MLCer rev's up their behaviour and get's worse and worse.  I think we have always pampered our partners when they were not well, or appeared a little more vulnerable then usual and when we withdraw I think they revert to what they have always done... become sick and pathetic.

So I do think our behaviour effects their crisis.  Good or bad, I don't know. Speeds it up, slows it down... I don't know that either, but I do know, the healthier we are the LESS CONCERNED we are about them and that to me is a good thing.  A very good thing.

As for the term "moving on", I don't see that as finding a new partner. A new partner is an OPTION!  It's not the only OPTION... it is just one.  People can see that you are lonely.  Is it awful of them to not want you to be alone?  You make it sound like it is the greatest insult in the world.  They love you, care about you, they know people are not SOLITARY creatures, we love human contact. 

Anybody who suggests you find another partner is a compliment.  They are saying, anybody would be fortunate to have you.  Instead you act like they have called you a "wh*re", or a man/woman hungry fiend.  People love being around other people.  It is the way we were made. It is the way that we rose to be the top of the food chain.  It was only through numbers that we beat out the cyber tooth tiger, mammoths, what have you.  Alone, we wouldn't have stood a chance. 

There is no need to be OFFENDED and INSULTED because your friends and family hate to see you alone.  Yes, I imagine they would LOVE to see you with a new partner.  Probably for a multitude of reasons, one of them because they think your spouses DO NOT DESERVE you... and they would love for him or her to return and for you to be LONG GONE.  Yes, they would love a little revenge for what they saw you go through.  They love you.  Shame on them.

The other comment from Ready2 that really resonated with me was this one...

But as a mentor here I wouldn't counsel someone to embrace the struggles someone else is putting them through because it will ultimately make them a better martyr.  Their spiritual journey (or lack thereof) is their own business, and, as was the point of my original post, I do not believe that we must suffer for the redemption of someone else, not even our spouses, our children, our parents

Every word of this statement hit me right between the eyes, nobody should suffer like we did, like our children did for the REDEMPTION of another.  Sorry, I just will never buy that.  An MLCer's crisis is AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER... others. 

Seriously people, we have got to stop FOCUSING on the poor, lost MLCer.  The focus belongs on ourselves.  When will somebody write a moving story about an LBS and how he/she came through this ordeal,  and we all SWOON with admiration.  Applauding the courage and fortitude of this MARVELOUS persons recovery. 

That's what I would like to see.  Just once!

Ok, I just read part II.  It came in as I was writing the above response.  I'm not sure your depiction of this gentleman is quite accurate, moment.  You said he has remarried and has calmed down, living a quiet, contented life.  He is living and he may be quiet but I think he is living his life in complete REGRET. 

I will have to read Part II again.  Thank you for posting it.

hugs Stayed

 

[holdinon2hope]

Thank you so much Moment...that really does sound a lot like My H with some of the tji.gs he has said. It is a great insight and much appreciated. Thank you again

[SwiftCovenant]

Wow...attaching to this.  Going to the entire thread later.

[Thunder]

Thanks moment,

I love how he talked about the changes they both were making but not together.  That is very sad.
If they only could have made them together.

But I guess that's not how it usually works.
I have made so many positive changes since all this happened and I too have thanked my X.  Not for the hurt and pain but for the wake-up call.  I was not taking care of myself.  I had gained weight, hated myself for it, but did nothing to change it.

It made me depressed about myself and I had very little self confidence. 

Today I am active, slimmed down and very confident.  I told X if he had not thrown me under the bus I would probably still be stuck where I was.
He doesn't find it very funny.  He loves the way I look now.   

The best thing that has come out of this is we do things together now.  Active things.  He's in great shape, too.
We have more fun together than we have had in years.

So even if we never remarry we have become friends again.  I'm ok with being single.

Guess there can be an upside to this after all.  I never want to get back to where I was a few years ago and I know I won't.

[osb]

Absolutely fascinating discussion, making me think intensely and i thank you all for it (especially moment).

One little thing struck me in reading Part II:

"...The contrast in how we both chose to deal with our pain amazes me, she chose a more conscious way to heal while I followed the more unconscious path – and there is a part of me that envies that she has less to be shameful of today. Although........ she often tells me this is my perception because she did go to the depths of despair too, she did experience her shadows and her shame, she felt her failure at losing me and our marriage.  None-the-less I can see she chose a more constructive path – I do not begrudge her this – it has made me more aware of her value as a mother to my children and it has filled me with pride that she was my wife and best friend because in her I also see that part of myself...."

OK, J doesn't begrudge his XW her pain, and is envious of her path... hmmm. I will have to ponder this, but to me it doesn't sound like his acquisition of greater mindfulness has completely cleared his mind of his own ego. Her pain remains distant and small, compared to the magnitude of his remembered pain. Her recovery therefore seems smoother, and her realized self larger to him. That's face-saving on his part, I think. Inevitable, perhaps; soothing and anaesthetizing, certainly; but still not fully self-aware. Maybe they never become so?

[stayed]

Good observation osb.  I too found something that was not sitting well with the second part, but I could not put my finger on it. He envies her, "that she has less to be ashamed of"!!!  wth?  Less, she has nothing to be ashamed of, she stood by him.  She encouraged him to mountain climb, take time for himself.  How did he thank her for her support and understanding... he CHEATED on her!  Yet, his main point is, "he envies her, BECAUSE she has less to be ashamed of".  Then he goes on to talk about what his wife said about hitting the depth of despair.  Does he think, she is ASHAMED of hitting the floor?

I don't think he understands what his wife was trying to tell him at all. I think his wife was telling him that she too hit "rock bottom".  She too, hit depths she never dreamed she was capable of feeling.  He instead chooses to believe she is talking about being ashamed of her own behaviour or something.

Interesting...

Hugs Stayed

[a]

Hi All

I think I need to just remind you that J wrote part 1 and 2 about 3 years ago.  He was just on 2 years in recovery from that day he crashed when he wrote me these emails. (I recently came across these emails when i was clearing my mailbox). 

He was at the time of writing these emails processing his actions and grieving the loss of his marriage.  He was in counselling trying to figure out why he did what he did and why he acted with “no conscience” – his words not mine.  So I guess what you are reading is the perspective of a MLCer who was still in recovery and still trying to figure it out.

Today J is a different man, he is not married his XW is married.  He is in a relationship with someone he met about a year ago.

Please try not to judge him for who he used to be - remember he was willing to allow me to share this with you because he understands pain and sorrow and even the anger - but more especially the pain of the LBS and the LBC (left behind children)

Take care
moment

[a]

One other thing - he did not begrudge his wife the more conscious path NOT her pain - what he means is that he wishes he had done it differently he wishes he could have been as gracious as his wife had been because he was clearly struggling with his shame and guilt - can you imagine learning to live with yourself once you realize all the damage you have caused, knowing that for the rest of your life you have to carry the burden of knowing that you intentionally set out to hurt the people you love.  That is what J was trying to convey.  I know this from the conversations we have had over the years.

I remember a another friend of mine who through negligence killed 5 people in a road accident - for two weeks he was absolutely catatonic unable to do anything but stare at the wall in his bedroom - as his mind tried to process the the enormity of his reckless actions - he took a very long time to forgive himself and i am not so sure he has - he has had a very difficult life living mostly with the notion he is undeserving of a good life. 

So just for a moment try rise above your anger and imagine what it would be like to realize that you were responsible for causing so much pain and sorrow - how would you deal with it.  How would you try to recover some sense of self respect, and   compassion for yourself when all you feel is that you are a horrible and creul human being.

take care
moment

[toughtimes]

Absolutely fascinating discussion, making me think intensely and i thank you all for it (especially moment).

One little thing struck me in reading Part II:

"...The contrast in how we both chose to deal with our pain amazes me, she chose a more conscious way to heal while I followed the more unconscious path – and there is a part of me that envies that she has less to be shameful of today. Although........ she often tells me this is my perception because she did go to the depths of despair too, she did experience her shadows and her shame, she felt her failure at losing me and our marriage.  None-the-less I can see she chose a more constructive path – I do not begrudge her this – it has made me more aware of her value as a mother to my children and it has filled me with pride that she was my wife and best friend because in her I also see that part of myself...."

OK, J doesn't begrudge his XW her pain, and is envious of her path... hmmm. I will have to ponder this, but to me it doesn't sound like his acquisition of greater mindfulness has completely cleared his mind of his own ego. Her pain remains distant and small, compared to the magnitude of his remembered pain. Her recovery therefore seems smoother, and her realized self larger to him. That's face-saving on his part, I think. Inevitable, perhaps; soothing and anaesthetizing, certainly; but still not fully self-aware. Maybe they never become so?

Totally picked up on this too Osb. There is a sense that this is all about him although there are remorseful comments elsewhere and he holds himself as a total fool and terrible cliche. It's confusing but I think on the whole he realises what he has done. Moment, in your last posts you write what I was thinking, that this was a man writing in the middle of his journey and, although not completely remorseful etc. he is well on his way.

My MiL had a MLC and she abandoned her teenage sons. She has spoken to me about it and feels deep guilt, but her guilt is all about her, about how she missed out on their teen years, about how she finally lost her ex husband because he had moved on. It is still all about her, so she is also suffering from a lifelong dose of selfishness!

I have been reading and listening to lots of jungian ideas today on youtube and was feeling that my ex H has simply found his authentic self. However, your friend's description of his replay behaviour, how he manipulated everybody so that he could justify his behaviour, how he believed he had every right to live the life he wanted (this is what jungian psychology promotes, the individual self) and who cares about anyone else.
I was interested to hear him say that the ow was attracted to this new persona, this new guy, the guy with money and a never ending string of fun activities and holidays to take her on. Take those goodies away and she wouldn't have hung around. Many people I know have said that to me about my ex H and his younger, intern girlfriend (although she has been promoted to a managerial position since BD!!!!!).

I will read again and have more of a think but thank you so much.

[Albatross]

After reading both parts, I am keen to believe that guy never been in MLC. He even now justify self by having MLC (excuse), fallowing own bliss, no regrets, no remorse, nothing. If something have time frame of whole life then we can't say that it is crisis. I am keen to believe that he have PD (most likely narcissistic) and he will be never cured... He learn nothing from acting out (narcissistic rage) which is hallmark of NPD.

Just some speculations, why his wife easily get read of him and move forward so easy ? In case that he was normal person before crisis, she should not heal self so easy... Just ask self that question.

Just my 2 c.

For all LBS's other side thinking is something which should be gold mine to finally understand how that looks like from other side. Unfortunately, this is not a case. So, there is nothing to learn.

[LisaLives]

Is it only an MLC if it ends in a return to what "was" and reconciliation?  If you admit your spouse was, perhaps, always more than a bit of a narc, or otherwise PDed, does that mean they didn't/couldn't have an MLC?  When people are somewhat PDed and they screw up at midlife, big or little, should their spouses walk out on them?  Does the fact that he still has some ego tied up in his writing mean his wife is justified in not standing? 

What do you all imagine your spouse's "story" will look like when they return?  Do you imagine you are "standing" for a BETTER outcome?  What part of this story seems to make people so upset and want to discount it?  Just curious, I find it interesting that moment is having to defend her friend and his story.  Why is that?   

[osb]

I'm so sorry moment, didn't mean to sound so critical of your friend. I too read it as 'still work in progress' - but wondered aloud if the process ever reaches a conclusion. Perhaps for J it has now.
 
I recall my H saying repeatedly to me, when he was most struggling, "it's so easy for you!!" As in, you never caused such pain, you never destroyed your partner, I can't live with my own guilt, it must be sooo easy to be little Ms Perfect! [aaand cue the monster, stage right  ]  ...Eventually, he said quietly, "it must've been so difficult".

I guess the greater part is to recognize you've screwed up; but learn to live with yourself anyway. The drama and envy is all self-indulgent, after all. The quiet is truth.

[Ready2Transform]

I don't see anyone here coming to the table with anger.  Discussion is not anger.  Looking at the different facets of MLC is not anger.  Glad he continues to move forward, moment. 

Good questions:

What do you all imagine your spouse's "story" will look like when they return?  Do you imagine you are "standing" for a BETTER outcome?

I have no idea, and though some sort of reconciliation where we could move past this would be my highest desire, I do not believe this to be a magical process that "cures" people like an episode of Fantasy Island where they see what life is like on the dark side, and return home better than ever.  I would just like to see my husband healthy again.  Whether or not we reconcile is an unknown. 

What part of this story seems to make people so upset and want to discount it?  Just curious, I find it interesting that moment is having to defend her friend and his story.  Why is that?   

I don't want to discount it, I just see certain aspects of it from a different angle.  I believe it happened, I believe it changed this man and his family's lives forever.  I think there are pros and cons of that, as there are for all of us, whether we ever reconcile or not.

I don't know what this man was like in his prior life, but I do think this was MLC, and that the insights provided are valuable in more than one way.

[Pixiegirl]

I just think the whole story is sad. His W, picked up the pieces of her life and move. Neither of them will ever know what life could have been like had he never went into crisis.

It reminds me of how we grieve the loss of what we had hoped and dreamed the second half of our lives would be. And not just with our spouses but life in general.

 I never dreamed that we would lose our son. We all know someday we will lose our parents but his mom and my dad were very young and died from terminal illnesses where they suffered. I never thought of any of these things until they happened and then we just lived the last 7 years in pure H***.

You would think after all the loss we endured that we would cling to each other and love each other more. This is certainly not the case. Instead he goes off to find his youth and happiness in outer distractions and I go within myself and try to find "me" again so I can rebuild my life and live out what I have left here on this earth happy, content and at peace. Two different journeys. Who really wins here? Start over with someone new or just be alone ?

[Hmmm]

Good question.

My next door neighbour told me recently her ex was actually sectioned as he was so depressed. She now has the most lovely husband. Her ex keeps in contact with their grown up kids and has recently written an article on the internet about depression and how he copes. He has remarried now too.

Although they are both happy-who knows if she had stood and known about MLC?

[stayed]

I agree Ready2, I don't get this anger and this "JUDGING" thing?  We are trying to analyze what he is saying and understand.  It really helps, that you told us, that this man was 2 years out from his CRASH.. THAT honestly explains a lot.  I TOTALLY RECOGNIZE this part of his recovery.  My h was very similar.  He wasn't quite totally REMORSEFUL yet, he didn't quite grasp just how MUCH pain his actions had actually caused... and he WAS terrified to face that.  Thanks for explaining where he was in his recovery, it really DOES make a huge different.

Nobody is judging him moment, truly we are not.  Nor are we angry, at least I am not.  It's just that you could totally see, at the time he wrote this information to you, he still felt/saw only his own pain.  He was devastated at what he had lost.  My h was much the same, as it slowly dawned on him, all he had lost.. which was mostly the RESPECT of his children. 

I totally appreciate you posting this, moment.  Please do not "judge" our reaction, either.  I wish there was as much information available about the stages of the LBS as there are the MLCer.  I would expect there are more then a few LBS's out there, that NEVER recovered or are still "stuck" trying to figure out... "what the he!! happened?

hugs Stayed

[UKStander]

OP, detach, let go and boundaries are not going to bring them out of crisis. Let alone vanishers. Vanishers have no contact with the LBS and their crisis only ends when it ends. Ironically I still think if I had not turned my uber clinger into a vanisher his crisis would had been shorter. Or maybe not.

Putting more pressure upon the already pressured and stressed LBS, give them one more thing to worry: enabling the MLCer depression, is not fair. And does not make sense. If MLC is an individual crisis and a MLCer is going to do what they will do no matter what, no point in adding to the LBS burdens by making a LBS feel like we are responsible for their depression. We are not. Nor for how long it lasts.

Yes, quite. I think. I don't know. My head is spinning now.... This is so totally confusing.  I think I have boundaries. I don't think I'm 'facilitating' anybody's crisis in any way.  Or am I?  Do tell...

[stayed]

Nobody is suggesting anybody is facilitating anybody's crisis, Uk.  We are just saying that boundaries are essential.  Without them, we think, you allow yourself to be dragged back into their crisis and then feed the fire... the drama.  Whether it prolongs the crisis, who the hell knows, but it sure as hell PROLONGS your agony. 

You aren't facilitating anybody's anything, accept your own pain . hugs Stayed

[UKStander]

OK. I think I am accepting my own pain. I certainly live with it day on day.

I sometimes wonder whether we aren't all of us too wrapped up in the details of this. We have the evidence now, plain as day. Shouldn't we be collectively going out there and lobbying and doing something to get greater recognition of 'the condition' and stop further suffering? 

At least then we've had turned all this dross into something good.

[stayed]

Organize the rally UkStander and give me a weeks notice.  I'll stand with you for sure.

Hugs Stayed

[kikki]

I can see that  J was a 'work in process' at the time of writing, but really appreciate his insightful, and articulate view.

As time went by my wife withdrew and stopped reacting, she started treating me with respect  and courtesy, this only exacerbated my resentment of her because she was no longer enabling my projections of everything being her fault.  You see I had set up my wife to fail she was dammed if she did and dammed if she didn’t.

Interesting to have this confirmed

Cheating on my affair partner did bring some guilt which I again justified by viewing the quality of our relationship as a trade off – she gave me everything I had complained about my wife not giving me – kinkier sex, thinner sexier body, participating in all my interests at the expense of her own – the trade off – I had money and paid for most things from expensive dinners to upmarket get always.  Furthermore, she had compromised her integrity by having an affair with me, like me she was not to be trusted, like me she had no honour – so she did not deserve my faithfulness.  I guess I blamed her for helping me break up my marriage.  And a deeper part of me knew that unlike my wife who fell in love with me when I was a penniless student with a beat up old car, who had loved me through my successes and failures – and still believed in me in spite of my failures – my affair partner being a young, corporate woman fell in love with the successful image I presented – so she ‘loved’ the image not the man behind the image.  My affair partner would not have given me a second glance if I had driven a moderate car instead of a luxury car or not spent the kind of money i spent on her – again a justification for my awful behavior.

Also interesting that the OW is viewed with such disregard too.  She really is a distraction, at least in this case.

I too wonder if they ever fully 'get it'?  Can anyone ever fully understand if that is not their own experience? 
Very few people are able to fully empathise with our situations, unless they have experienced it themselves.

[a]

Dear All

Thank you for all your kind words and gratitude. 

May i add that i posted this to help people get some clarity but it seems that even what J wrote is open to different interpretations based on our perceptions, projections and conditioning.  So i am not so sure if it's helped or just fortified our attachment to a possible outcome for our MLCers and our M.

When i first read J's emails to me i did not see a selfish ego but rather a person struggling with the realities of what his actions had done to his family not so much to himself - i really did not see the selfishness in his emails i saw the opposite.  I saw a man struggling to overcome his failings and man trying to come to terms with what he had done.  I never really tried to analyse his emails through the perspective of the various stages of MLC because to this day i'm still not sure about MLC.

I think as human beings we all experience different hardships in life and our hardship is one of being a LBS.  But we all know there a many other hardships that people suffer.  Our hardship is a broken heart, and a betrayal that makes us question all our perceptions and what is real.  I know that because of what XH has done i struggled for a long time to trust in my perceptions of the world and of people in general. 

Because of J i was able to accept and allow myself to feel the anger towards H, to allow myself the opportunity to allow myself the expression of my darkest emotions.  I know that in my desperation to reconcile with XH i squashed those negative feelings - i was so busy trying to reach that higher state of love "agape" that i denied my darkest thoughts.  It was only when i accepted and allowed myself the freedom to express how i truly felt and not deny these emotions behind a veil of false kindness and compassion for XH that my healing began.  When i stopped denying my anger i really started to heal.  It was once i acknowledged how i truly felt and it was not pretty that i was then able to come to a place where i could have sincere feelings of kindness and compassion towards XH.  Although as it stands i still vacillate between compassion and love, and anger and, dare i say it, disgust at who XH has chosen to become.

I also no longer feel the need to analyse XH and his journey.  He is no longer part of my every day reality and i choose not to think about what if's.

I think we mourn for J and/or his XW based on how we are perceiving and relating to our situation but when you see J and his XW - they truly do not live with what if's.  Yes they acknowledge that if J had done things differently and if XW had waited they could very well be in a happy relationship. But they also recognise that they made choices based on what they understood at the time. It was based on what J's XW understood that she made a different choice to the one we are making as LBS's trying to stand or at the very least trying to work out what our MLCers are doing.

Maybe we are keeping our pain alive for longer than necessary.  I just wonder if we had followed XW path of mourning the loss and dealing with the reality that the M was over if we might not be in a better place and possibly further down the line of our recovery.

Whatever damage J caused he, at least has made more effort than most to become a better human being and to acknowledge the part he played in causing so much damage.  I don't think my XH will ever get to this place.  I believe he has made a new life for himself which he has justified to himself.  I believe XH seldom, if ever thinks of me and if he does it is not with love.  And funnily enough i have come to a place where it just does not matter anymore what XH thinks of me. 

I have realized through all this i do not want XH back and maybe today i understand what J's XW was feeling.  I am done with XH and am ready to move forward and make a new life for myself.  I consider my M as simply a chapter in my book of life and now i am ready to start a new chapter.  But this time i am wiser - there were many things in XH i over-looked but second time round i know the kind of man i would like to share my life with. 

I wish you all a journey that takes you to a place of peace and acceptance.

The Buddhists have a saying "the only constant in life is change"  maybe as LBS's we are resisting the change that has come our way and we are trying to recapture what was - food for thought.

take care
moment

[kikki]

The Buddhists have a saying "the only constant in life is change"  maybe as LBS's we are resisting the change that has come our way and we are trying to recapture what was - food for thought.

Maybe we are keeping our pain alive for longer than necessary.  I just wonder if we had followed XW path of mourning the loss and dealing with the reality that the M was over if we might not be in a better place and possibly further down the line of our recovery.

I don't think our pathway, which I personally view as learning and self healing, rather than trying to control a particular outcome, is a head choice.  I believe it's an intuitive heart choice. 
It just is. 

I remember Oprah being interviewed about her choice to no longer continue her daily show.  She said it changed for her when the energy had gone out of it.  She knew it was time for something different as she had learnt all she was going to learn in the situation.

I believe that is exactly what happens to us.  While the energy is there, there are still things for us to learn, or resolve for ourselves.  If the energy goes out of it for us, I do think that is when we move on for good. 

Looks like J's XW had the energy go out of it for her before he was done with the worst of his crisis. Whether that happens for us or not, is an individual thing, and probably not a decision that our heads will make. 

[xyzcf]

Dear Moment,

I am very glad that you have shared this with us for so much of it reminds me of my husband's behavior and actions  and that brings me some comfort.

I have just read a book by Alice Miller called "The Drama of the Gifted Child. Uncovering your true self" and it talks about the emotional unavailability in infancy and childhood and the effect later on in a person's life. J talked about that as well.

I also do not understand the judgement and tearing apart of his story that has occurred in some of the posts here. He has stated how he feels, what he was going through and that is huge in my mind.

I am one who believes in being compassionate to my husband, indeed, anger for me has never been a very big part of the equation. As time goes on, I see how very "messed up" he is. I relate well to RCR's articles that talk about agape and unconditional love.

We have always said that the LBSer gets to decide in the end whether to accept them back or not. Personally, since I think it is better for families and society for marriages to continue, I see his story and hers as a lost possibility to resolve and restore something that was once beautiful. I look at the stats on 2nd marriages and the research that has stated that people who were unhappy in their marriages who divorced were not as happy as those who remained married 5 years later.....anyway, doesn't matter....we all have our own very deep reasons why we stand or not.

Again I thank you for sharing this. Please also tell J that his words have been very helpful. The more we learn about this condition, and indeed we can really only learn from those who have experienced the actual crisis, the better equipped we are to make the difficult decisions we must make as our life continues to unfold.

[HeartTattoo]

Ironic though it is, and though it doesn't help a fast passage out of here and to peace for the LBS, the MLC-ers deserve our pity. Dreadful word. Maybe I mean sympathy.

Reading J's first letter, I just kept thinking the word "pathetic".  And J himself uses the word pathetic himself in his 2nd letter.  Understanding my H as a pathetic creature, who I believe is suffering, gives me a sense of power.  I don't understand why.  I guess his pathetic weakness validates for me that he didn't choose OW because he believes her better in some way or because of any failing on my part, but out of some sort of desperation.  The OW's smug satisfaction with her "new life" is then even more pathetic.  And the pathetic crash that both of them have coming someday also gives me some satisfaction as well.

None of this is "enlightened" for sure.  I have a lot of compassion for my H & I believe one day I will reach a stage of true forgiveness, but for right now, if it helps me, I'm just going to continue thinking of him & the OW as sick, pathetic creatures.

[cosette]

Just now attaching so that I do not lose your thread.  I have only read your first posts.  All I can say is WOW!

[HeartTattoo]

I also do not understand the judgement and tearing apart of his story that has occurred in some of the posts here. He has stated how he feels, what he was going through and that is huge in my mind.

XYZ,

I don't see any anger, or judgment, or tearing apart of J's story here.  The MLCer in the midst of crisis & recovery is such a mystery, that I think as we read the accounts, we just have so many more questions, & yes, of course, we each read it through the filters of our own experiences.

Many thanks to moment for sharing her friend's experience & to her friend J for allowing her to publish it here.  While no two MLCers are quite the same, the story did validate for me many things I often doubt.

I look at the stats on 2nd marriages and the research that has stated that people who were unhappy in their marriages who divorced were not as happy as those who remained married 5 years later.....anyway, doesn't matter....we all have our own very deep reasons why we stand or not.

X, I don't see how this research has any relevance for any of us.  Of course, people who work on their problems & remain together will be happier than those who just cut & run & D.  But, none of us are in that situation; that is exactly why we are all here.  We had no choice at all in the matter & our MLCers all chose/were compelled to cut & run instead of remaining engaged with the M & working out problems.  What has this research to do with standing?  Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying here?

[Thunder]

moment-When i first read J's emails to me i did not see a selfish ego but rather a person struggling with the realities of what his actions had done to his family not so much to himself - i really did not see the selfishness in his emails i saw the opposite.  I saw a man struggling to overcome his failings and man trying to come to terms with what he had done. 

I saw the same thing, moment.  I found it very honest and sad.
I'm glad your friend and his XW are in a happier place now....even though I feel his regret will probably never really go away.
He lost a lot.  What a terrible journey.

[Searching4Answers]

I remember Oprah being interviewed about her choice to no longer continue her daily show.  She said it changed for her when the energy had gone out of it.  She knew it was time for something different as she had learnt all she was going to learn in the situation.

I believe that is exactly what happens to us.  While the energy is there, there are still things for us to learn, or resolve for ourselves.  If the energy goes out of it for us, I do think that is when we move on for good. 

Looks like J's XW had the energy go out of it for her before he was done with the worst of his crisis. Whether that happens for us or not, is an individual thing, and probably not a decision that our heads will make.

I think this a great example of what happens. I see my energy going else where - away from my MLC situation.

[xyzcf]

Hi HT...I hope this clarifys

I said:

I look at the stats on 2nd marriages and the research that has stated that people who were unhappy in their marriages who divorced were not as happy as those who remained married 5 years later.....anyway, doesn't matter....we all have our own very deep reasons why we stand or not.

I often read how people are trying to put a time frame on how long they will stand. I hear people criticize standers for waiting, for allowing life to pass us by. I read people saying that why would anyone waste years of their lives, it is too long, it is too hard. I hear all kinds of ideas about what is happening, our spouses are bi polar or narcissistic, lots of labels and difficulty in believing in MLC is a process that will have an end.The data we have about MLC is often discarded as not being valid or true because it is not based upon pure scientific methodology but rather the reporting of situations by individuals. There is no way to do a double blind study that I could see on MLC, so the data is not always recognized as being correct.

Thus, what I stated is perhaps my attempt at trying to encourage people to hold on longer. It is tough, it is really difficult and we become bone weary...I know that. One of the main reasons I continue to stand is the support I get from other standers.

Those stats are only one reason why if your spouse is having a crisis and there is some chance that he/she may exit and wish to come home again, that it may be a better choice than starting over again with someone new. Regardless of the reason our marriages are dead, and yes, the MLCer is the one who runs but I see LBSers running too. I see LBSers less than one year from BD, trying to find that special person again, and I see people getting hurt again from that quest.

I just read hyperglad's thread. She, and others who talk about their reconciled marriages always seem to have the same message to me...that the relationship is better than it was before.

So, I was pointing out that indeed the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence, for the LBSer. Certainly it might be and again, I have stated that this is a really personal decision that only each LBSer can make.

RCR started this site I think to try and educate LBSers about the reality of MLC and what to expect. I have always felt that here is where we encourage others to do what they can to save their marriages. If I "give up" at some point too, then it is over. There would not be a very good possibility to reconcile once I decided I was done.

That's only my opinion though and very few others share my viewpoint.

Hope that clarifys.

[Thunder]

xyzcf,

I agree with you 100%!!!!

I remember thinking ..ok, the 2 year mark is coming...it's almost time for him to get back to normal now.
Boy, was I wrong.

It has been over 3 1/2 years now and the changes I have seen in my X have been painfully SLOW..but I do see them and I'm willing to wait it out in the hopes that we can be a real couple again.  He is worth the wait.  Our relationship is worth the wait.

He so far has not complicated the situation with another person and I won't either.
Until the day comes when I feel my standing is harming me, I'll remain standing.

[Anjae]

Stayed, like Limitless, when I withdraw from mine he vanished. No pursuit, no nothing.

What pain Stayed? I have no pain. The pain was gone years ago. So was any emotional attachment. What depression? No idea what you are taking about. I was merely saying that imposing boundaries does not bring a MLCer out of crisis and asking OP why boundaries can shorten the crisis since boundaries are for the LBS, not the MLCer. My life? I have a new set of friends, my photography, may film groups, have done several courses, and moving into a science oriented future life, etc.

The apology may satisfy the LBS early on, from a certain point on it no longer matters. At least that is how I see it.

J’s exwife found what many LBS find, a new life, a new person in their lives. Some of us here have a new person in our lives, but that does not seem to seat well with the board. So, some of us may refrain from taking about it or stop posting.

Kikki, most MLCers when the crisis is over apologise, just like J. And try to make amends. But often the LBS has moved on and wants nothing to do with the MLCer. The apologies and wanting to make rights come too late. 

Like Limitless I no longer care if my actions may, or may not affect Mr J crisis. I have a life to live.

J’s makes sense from someone who after his crisis went to Buddhism.

I think as the LBS gets stronger and healthier, I think the MLCer rev's up their behaviour and gets worse and worse. 

Agree. But that would be, again, damned if you do, damned if you don't. So, better do whatever is best for us.

[Thunder]

Anjae,

Please don't think meeting someone new and trying to find happiness is not welcome on this board.  I know it is geared towards standing but not everyone can do this.

I truly envy anyone who finds a new relationship.  I do.  I tried, thinking I could just move on and put this chapter of my life behind me, but I couldn't.  It didn't work.

It worked after my first H left me for an ow but not this time.  I realized 2 things.  My first H was a narcasistic (sp) man who only cared about himself.  He came from a very dysfunctional family.  Very selfish.  My second H was a very caring, highly moral man who loved me....even though he was in the grips of his crisis.

Secondly. the first time met a great guy I was not ready to have a relationship with and hurt him very bad.  I felt that guilt for a very long time and decided I didn't want to meet someone else until I was in a healthy place.

There was just no one I found I wanted to be with so I gave up the search and decided to make me happy...some how all by myself.  It's been a struggle but I'm learning more and more about myself every day.
I'm finding peace I never felt before.

If you find someone to help you through this nightmare great, but be very honest with him and yourself.

[HeartTattoo]

I look at the stats on 2nd marriages and the research that has stated that people who were unhappy in their marriages who divorced were not as happy as those who remained married 5 years later.....anyway, doesn't matter....we all have our own very deep reasons why we stand or not.

What I don't understand is this quote & its relevance to standing.  Is it saying that people in 2nd marriages, who were unhappy & D'ed in their first M's & were now in a 2nd M were less happy after 5 years than unhappily M'ed people who stuck out their first M's? 

I still don't see any relevance to standing as our choice to stick with an "unhappy" M is taken away from us by our runaway MLCer.  The choices for us are not D'ing & remarriage vs. sticking out an "unhappy" M.  Our choices are standing or not standing (which might include a remarriage).  Don't see how the quote refers to this.

Sorry if I'm being dense.

[Pixiegirl]

xyzcf,

I agree with you 100%!!!!

I remember thinking ..ok, the 2 year mark is coming...it's almost time for him to get back to normal now.
Boy, was I wrong.

It has been over 3 1/2 years now and the changes I have seen in my X have been painfully SLOW..but I do see them and I'm willing to wait it out in the hopes that we can be a real couple again.  He is worth the wait.  Our relationship is worth the wait.

He so far has not complicated the situation with another person and I won't either.
Until the day comes when I feel my standing is harming me, I'll remain standing.

I've lived with my H off and on for his MLC. Until a few months ago when I found this site I wasn't even aware he was in MLC. Just thought he went nuts. I can recall signs of MLC back in late 2007 and it just progressed. Late 2010/11 is when he started BD's and searching for his youth. This is the 4th time he has left. I have no clue how I have survived this up until now. My H doesn't have OW yet either. He's too in to himself and living the single life hanging with the boys, racing cars and spending money.

[Anjae]

Pixiegirl, early on our relationships with another person may not work out. Or not the way we wanted to. For me that is part of our learning and growing. Some of us were with the MLCer since our late teens, we have no other experience of a adult relationship.

The board does not exactly disapprove of a LBS finding someone else. Especially if it is years down the road, but there is sometimes a sense that if a LBS end up taking that road it is not the same as to the reconcile with the MLCer. Not all of us will reconcile. And, usually, it is the LBS who chooses not to reconcile.

The second marriages “scorn” intrigues me. Several board members are on their second marriage and no one thinks their marriages are less worthy or that they should not stand for their MLCer. And many second marriages (or third ones) last longer and are happier than first marriages. I’ll use Jed Diamond again, both he and his wife are on their third marriage, they have been married for decades and a good marriage. People grow, change, improve, evolve.

[Pixiegirl]

Anjae,
I agree whole heartedly that although painful, sometimes things just don't work out. It takes two people and during this MLC I feel like I have been the only one trying to keep our marriage together. I honestly devoted too much time trying to make it work and lost myself in the battle. I have to find "me" again.

I truly believe that we all have to decide for ourselves what is best for us. As for me, I am not making any decision right now because I am not healed. It's still too early for me and I have a lot of healing to do.  Everyone has their own journey and I do believe each journey is different. I have no desire for another relationship right now but who knows how I will feel in 6 months or a year from now.

I think some at this point on the journey are ready to move on to another relationship. I think about that and I know in my mind I am not ready but apparently they are. I have friends that are on their 2nd and 3rd marriages and most are very happy. Some are just settling as the other marriages failed and they don't want to be alone. I also have a friend that was her(now) husband's MLC affair. I watched all that unfold years ago and now they have been happily married for 12 years.

Personally, my beliefs will not allow me to pursue another relationship until I am divorced. I will know when the time is right as I continue to trust God with his plan for me.

I think the goal for me is to be happy whether I am with someone or not. I'm not there yet but I sure am on my way

[The lighthouse]

Attaching to the thread.  Thank you Moment for posting your friend's letter and to your friend for giving his permission for you to do so.  His very insightful story and the comments and reactions of LBS's have been very interesting and thought provoking.

Being a glass half full kind of person I would rather focus on the fact that he had the courage to expose himself with such honesty and articulation than focus on whether he fully 'got it' or not at the time he wrote it.  We are all works in progress until our last breaths.

Sadly, I don't think my H would ever be able to express himself so well even if he does at some point 'get it'.

As for the first marriage versus second marriage statistics, I assume statistically second marriages have less chance of surviving because of the 'baggage' we bring into the second marriage from the first.  Perhaps the focus should be more on whether we are 'healed' or not from our previous relationship before we enter into another.

First, second or third marriage, doesn't matter if we haven't done the work before we enter a new relationship.  My second marriage with my MLC'er lasted 19 years (together 23).  Standing for me isn't just about hoping my H will come through the tunnel one day and want to reconcile, it's also about being 'still' while I heal and grow so that if I come to a place through this process where I no longer wish to make myself available for a possible 'new' relationship with my H, I am a better person to move onto the next relationship and give that person my best self.

[summer90]

I would like to thank moment and J for the MLC post.  It certainly got me thinking and has caused much emotion and lots of positive discussion on this wonderful forum.  I am never surprised about the depth of feeling these discussions hold, as we the LBS are often standing under some incredibly difficult circumstances.  Most of us have lost our beloved life partner to MLC and that is not an easy catastrophe to come to terms with.

The letters make me realize that the MLCers are all different in so many ways in the amount of damage they cause and array of different "symptoms" they display. The part that is universal seems to be the cause being  family of origin issues and not the lack of love or integrity of their spouse.  That is very evident to me in J's letters.

The other ingredient in the MLC mess that seems to make the most difference from all the posts I have read about the MLCers, is the "core being" of the person in crisis.  If the MLCer was a person of high moral character and integrity, very dependable and trustworthy, it will, I think, be impossible not for them to return to that person after the crisis and also improve.  This is not to say the person will not inflict an enormous amount damage and hurt during their crisis, but the core will always remain.  I don't believe a parson can lose this part of themselves forever.

The other part of the letter that struck me most was that it didn't matter what J's wife did or how she conducted herself,  he still managed to justify his MLC actions which told me that the discussions on this forum on "leaving them to their crisis and getting on with our own lives" is paramount. We need to make our own lives happy enough to live with or without the MLCer.

Standing is an incredibly difficult task and I have great admiration for all standers on this forum for their belief and unconditional regard of their spouse under almost impossible circumstances.

[Rollercoasterider]

I think I need to make this required reading—I should add it to the Newbie Welcome Message. Few are able to articulate their experience so well.
Like so many, I too want to highlight the 6 years he referenced—starting at 41 and waking up with his what the hell have I done feeling at 47. But please note, this was not a 6 year crisis; that was six years of REPLAY.
Liminality is not smooth sailing and he goes over that in the second post.

My road to recovery was not easy – even though I had hit rock bottom and realised my ‘new’ life was not what I wanted –  the urge to sooth the pain with the last binge drink or sex with a stranger were strong especially on days where the emotional pain got too much for me.  I cannot say the journey was without its slip ups but as I started to deal with the real issues behind my complete dissatisfaction with life so the addictive pull of my self–destructive behaviours lessened.

Today he has no regrets.

But when he wrote the email few years ago he said...

Where my wife and my daughters are concerned I still live with the weight of tonnes – I live in hope that the day comes were I make my peace and truly forgive myself for this mistake.

We both wish we could have somehow made these changes while remaining together.

I understand his having no regrets now.
Do I wish Chuck had not had a midlife crisis?
Do any of you wish Chuck had not had a midlife crisis—because if he hadn't, this forum would not be here!
Our past is what has brought us to this precise place today and that place has three little children who would probably not be with us and yet they would be with someone...who? Maybe we would have had children in the traditional manner, or maybe we would have adopted, but earlier; the odds that we would have the children we have now... probably pretty low and I want these babies!
Back when I was working on my MFA I wrote the start to a novel—my specialty is picture books, so this was different for me and I have not written more, but it is perhaps the story I have thought of the most. It was a Repeat story and as may be common, the main character was really me and I was fantasizing what it would be if I continued to relive the same life—like the movie Ground Hog Day, but the entire life from about age 6 rather than a single day. But I needed a twist o make the story unique and so I started it with life 15 (I was going to repeat my life for the 15th time or rather the 15th experience and 14th repeat, since the first was not a repeat.)and this time when I returned it was different because my mother was also a repeater (life 4 or 5) and she had finally chosen in this life to repeat her first life—at least the part that was with my dad. Grandma was also a repeater, but she and I sort of paralleled, but when she did not repeat her first path by having my mom (and then my mom do the same) I just felt her presence as a continuation—even while my Grandma was alive in each repeated life I could tell there was another version of her.
I wrote this about a year before Bomb Drop. After Bomb drop the questions changed. Would I repeat my marriage and how often? As a Stander, how did that translate to repeated lives, did I have a duty—was I still married to Chuck even though I technically wasn't—and he did not even know of me yet?
Well, now the questions are even bigger. Originally I figured that a repeat of the first life's marital path would happen every 4 or 5 lives, maybe more often for better marriages. The one thing that I maintained was that the original children could still be produced without trying to time and repeat every moment perfectly. But that was for children we produced rather than adopted. Now, what are my obligations? My children will not only be adopted by me, they are from the foster system which means they need another family—instead of being placed with an adoptive family by a bio mother who lovingly chooses adoption. I run this story through my head at least weekly and these questions make it a lot more intense and perhaps a better story, but I don't know the resolution. My questions need to be explored and I am afraid of what I might see—even though thank goodness it is a fantasy rather than reality. But if it were real and we did not get the same children—either because we timed it wrong or were not together—would I be able to handle seeing them someday or would I fall apart?
In my story I even wonder how I could build this website if we avoided his MLC. Would I be credible if I came to create it from a place of education—a Psychology degree—instead of as an LBS?
Our choices before, during and after his MLC brought us here to this blissful life. This last year with those little bundles of joy has been complete bliss, the best ever and I would not want to trade it.

[a]

Hi

I certainly have the greatest respect for those who are standing, i am into my 5th year of post BD and until recently when i discovered XH had married OW i guess i was hoping that he would find his way back to us to our M. 

Discovering his M to OW was the nail in the coffin.  To stand at this point would be a waste of time.  I think his M to OW will last she is far better suited to his current needs than i will ever be.  I used to think our M was great but over these last 5 years i have had time to think about things - i also knew that i did not want to suddenly find things to justify to myself why i was letting go - it was a fine line to walk.  But here are just a few things that XH did during our M which make me think that maybe our M was good because of who i am as a person and not necessarily who he was.  Please do not get me wrong i am not saying i am better than XH - i certainly have my flaws and many of them - i just mean that we all have different ways of being in the world and because i come from a far more loving family i had better relational skills.

I am an overweight person and XH would use his dissatisfaction with my weight to control me.  I lived in my marriage for the most part struggling to give XH what he most wanted - a thinner me and because i could not deliver i compromised in many other areas of our M to try and make up for my inability to give XH what he wanted.

I realize now that XH was using my weight to control me.  The strange thing is that XH followed a similar path to J in terms of cheating on the OW which he has now married.  I was sent proof of his activities and in this proof was a series of pictures on a naked woman pleasing herself - and she was fatter than myself.  I found that bizarre - if XH found me so disgusting why would he keep these photo's of a fat woman?

XH knew who he was marrying i have struggled with my weight all my life.  However i know that this is what he used to justify his crisis.  OW is a thin woman.  She has taken up body building with H and many other activities like riding motorbikes.  These were XH's passions from the moment i met him.  I truly believe she is far better suited to XH than i was and i believe that their M will last. 

In my work environment one of the bosses 63 years of age has been married to his OW (46 years old) for 15 years.  Their affair is still gossiped about and i don't think that work colleagues respect them very much but they seem happy.

I do believe the universe often shows you the truth, i started working at this organisation a year ago and i believe that it is trying to show me that XH is like this 63 year old man.  I certainly do not want to be standing 15 years from now watching my life pass me by while XH gets to live his life.

I also know that XH was the type of man who would make a decision and stick to it.  he did not believe in redo's but rather living with the consequences of your decisions.  I truly believe XH is not on a journey that includes going back or looking back.  Yes he may have struggled with his decision at the time, like J he was considered by all as an upstanding guy, but unlike J he does not regret his choice to leave, he may regret how he left and the pain he has caused but that's about it - which is why he has never been able to face me.  XH is a vanisher and i believe he will remain vanished.  When i requested NC he certainly didn't pursue - he instead got married 8 months later from NC. 

So i really only have one choice and that is to move on and make a new life for myself.  And maybe that's why i can identify with J's XW she only met her current H about 4+ years into J's replay.  By then she had done a lot of therapy and i think she had really looked at her life.  She met her current H in a hospital - they were both there taking care of their ailing mothers - now that's kismet for you.

take care
moment

[toughtimes]

The other part of the letter that struck me most was that it didn't matter what J's wife did or how she conducted herself,  he still managed to justify his MLC actions which told me that the discussions on this forum on "leaving them to their crisis and getting on with our own lives" is paramount. We need to make our own lives happy enough to live with or without the MLCer.

This is exactly how I feel. Doesn't matter what we do it makes no difference in their mind but it makes a difference for us. We can feel proud of our behaviours and not regret our actions.
The emails are brilliant because they show us how manipulative the mlcer is, how they twist everything to suit them. All things that I suspect but I am constantly thinking, maybe I need to change something? Maybe I'm the one who should be going to mediation like he says, despite the fact my instincts tell me he will use it to maipulate the situation in his favour.

I'm so glad it worked out for Js wife and for J. It would be nice to hear they reconciled but it just didn't work out. How was she to know that he would have this epiphany? We have so much info here but many of us say "I just don't see my xh ever reaching this point etc." I think you are looking at your situation realistically moment, so you can choose a future that does not consider your ex h. It's all about you and your life.

 

[TopsyTurvy]

Ditto everything tough times said

[LaughLoveLive]

I just found this thread and read the whole thing through which in one sitting is a lot to take in. This will need some thinking time!

I am very interested in the story from the perspective if the LBS. Having just been served my divorce papers I am interested in Js wife moving on into her own happy relationship with a man her daughters adore. An LBSs "success" can take a number of forms.

The insight into the mind of a (perhaps) MLC is so fascinating and intriguing and informative. This is a wonderfully useful resource for us all.

[a]

Hi

I have a question want to see your different points of view.  In the last two months i contacted H - the first time because he had not paid alimony for two months and was not abiding by divorce settlement and second time to wish him a happy birthday.  Both times contact was via email.  In both contacts i did not ask him how he was doing?  I was polite but just said what needed to be said with no fluffing.  For example his birthday wish was simply " happy birthday, X.  best wishes m"  that's it.

Yet on both occasions he has felt the need to tell me how he is doing.  I do not know if XH knows i know he is married - i found out via a friend (she has never spoken to XH since BD) who saw photo of his wedding on the internet, they were on a website for all to see if they Google his name.

my question.  Why does he feel the need to tell me how he is doing?  I certainly do not volunteer how i am doing and i do not ask him how he is doing.

take care
moment

[Albatross]

Hi

I have a question want to see your different points of view.  In the last two months i contacted H - the first time because he had not paid alimony for two months and was not abiding by divorce settlement and second time to wish him a happy birthday.  Both times contact was via email.  In both contacts i did not ask him how he was doing?  I was polite but just said what needed to be said with no fluffing.  For example his birthday wish was simply " happy birthday, X.  best wishes m"  that's it.

Yet on both occasions he has felt the need to tell me how he is doing.  I do not know if XH knows i know he is married - i found out via a friend (she has never spoken to XH since BD) who saw photo of his wedding on the internet, they were on a website for all to see if they Google his name.

my question.  Why does he feel the need to tell me how he is doing?  I certainly do not volunteer how i am doing and i do not ask him how he is doing.

take care
moment

Perhaps he is still in crisis, they talk only about self, do not ask anybody else how they doing, how they feel and so on. Their head is whole world.

[a]

P.s  in both accounts  he said he is doing very well for his reply to my birthday wish he said thank you and he is having a good day

take care moment

[summer90]

Still all about him then??

[i can and will cope]

reading more of the threads on this has made me feel quite sad , i really dont know anymore whare aor what stage my h is at , i have been called stupid for supposedly  letting him do things to me over and over but as someone else said we all handle things differently and what works for one doensn't work for another.  i know we all doubt it is mlc sometrimes

roller coaster said it right thaere are some people that can write things in such an articulate way , i am not one of those people , i know what i want to say but dont for fear of saying something wrong.  i know this is the worst thing i have ever experienced , my h and i splie up a long time ago and got back together and were blissfully happy for nearly 20 years i was his sencond wife (and no i didnt meet him until 2 years after his first marriage ended .

I for one have to believe that my h is in there somewhere as i know he is trying to connect with son again , he asked him if i was out to avoid seeing him ? i really truly dont know what to do for the best anymore , i am prbably writing this in the wrong place but havent really been posting since i read that i was stupid and to be honest i really didnt need tohear that when i had come on for some support as my h had been in touch, i think i just rambling now so sorry . i

i am going to read moments friends letter again as i didnt see the second paet but i know i can see what i think it was anjae said that the mlc who before the crisis was of high morla and a loving kind person and would do anything for their spouse and family and friends CANNOT lose alll of that altogher , i see my h and know and sense that he loves me but for some reason this ow has him by the balls and he has used words like my life isnt my own , i feels stuck in limbo , he is sorry to son for his last two years of sh"t , he feels trapped but he has to do this ,,,too much damage has been done , then he wants to walk on the beach with me a talk about things blah blah , all i know is as smeone on the forum said I LOVE HIM ...FACT , i still dont understand how tthe mlc though feels more loyalty to these ow (who are not nice women as far as i am concerned i would NEVER in my life put another woman through this hell. mlc ornot ..) than to their familyies and the one person they have shared almosr half of their life with

sorry but i just needed to say this ..

[Thunder]

summer-The other ingredient in the MLC mess that seems to make the most difference from all the posts I have read about the MLCers, is the "core being" of the person in crisis.  If the MLCer was a person of high moral character and integrity, very dependable and trustworthy, it will, I think, be impossible not for them to return to that person after the crisis and also improve.  This is not to say the person will not inflict an enormous amount damage and hurt during their crisis, but the core will always remain.  I don't believe a parson can lose this part of themselves forever.

Thanks for posting this.  My X is one of great integrity with very high morals, etc.  He is a very good person.
I truly believe that is why he didn't cheat on me through our very long divorce ordeal.   He had many opportunities. I think his judgment of himself is still important to him.
I just keep hoping and praying he comes back to being his core self.  With or without me.

[limitless]

Good observation osb.  I too found something that was not sitting well with the second part, but I could not put my finger on it. He envies her, "that she has less to be ashamed of"!!!  wth?  Less, she has nothing to be ashamed of, she stood by him.  She encouraged him to mountain climb, take time for himself.  How did he thank her for her support and understanding... he CHEATED on her!  Yet, his main point is, "he envies her, BECAUSE she has less to be ashamed of".  Then he goes on to talk about what his wife said about hitting the depth of despair.  Does he think, she is ASHAMED of hitting the floor?

I don't think he understands what his wife was trying to tell him at all. I think his wife was telling him that she too hit "rock bottom".  She too, hit depths she never dreamed she was capable of feeling.  He instead chooses to believe she is talking about being ashamed of her own behaviour or something.

Interesting...

Hugs Stayed

I would like to comment on this...

I guess that I read this in very different way.

I believe that the "shame" that he write about - as it pertains to his ex-wife - is related to her own shame.  Not about him, the marriage, his crisis...or anything like that.

When I read this - it came across to me that he had admiration for his ex wife (interesting how he continues to call her his wife, by the way) for how she handled his abandonment and crisis.  Instead of running away, avoiding, self-medicating (replay) - she chose to face her own issues, go through her own pain, and come out of it a better person.  The shame I believe he is writing about (and I am reading between the lines here and taking a leap) - may be something that she shared with him regarding her own journey of self discovery.

Everyone has a shadow.  I believe that everyone has things about themselves that they wish they could change, things they have done in the past that they wish they had handled differently....regrets.  If you don't have regrets...you may have not have truly lived your life.

This MLCer's (ex) wife went through her own mirror work and came out the other side as a better person.  I am guessing that the "she has less to be ashamed of" comment is a quote....from her. 

I read only admiration in his description of her. 

Regarding how he treated her and their daughters....and how she reacted to it...I agree...she has NOTHING to be ashamed about.  Again...I don't think that this is what the MLCer is writing about. 

Does he somewhat make light of what she went through?  Possibly.  I don't want to make excuses for him.  But.  (Always a but  ) - I am guessing that actually thinking about and FACING the pain that he put his family through is still very difficult for him. 

Someone posted in this thread about another person who had caused the death of others.  Hopefully NONE of us ever have to face something like that.  But, if you did?  Waking up every day - and having to face something terrible (unforgivable) that you had done?  Wow!  I really can't imagine.

I guess that is how it is for a "recovered" MLCer?  It is said that most of them come through their crisis.  Maybe that is true.  Who knows?  The thing is....to face someone that you have wronged so terribly takes a great deal amount of courage and strength.  These are two things that the MLCer is truly lacking...throughout the crisis (and after?).

Yes.  Most of what he wrote was "all about him."  Well, he was describing HIS crisis.  It clearly showed that it had little (if anything) to do with his wife or family.  He wrote of his childhood - and things that had occurred way before he met and married his wife.

He sounds like a man full of regret..but accepting of what he did and the aftermath.  He does not blame his wife for not wanting to reconcile.  How can he?  Well, he could...if he were still living a life of denial.

I appreciate his very descriptive words about how he felt, what he did, and where it got him. 

L

[trusting]

I have always wondered how an MLCer can work through and cope with the pain they have caused, if they do have that realization someday.  Honestly, they should have regret the rest of their lives for it. 

My husband, the man I know, was so sweet and tenderhearted.  He treated me so well.  I wonder how that man, if he is under there somewhere still (and I do believe he is - I see it in glimpses once in awhile now), will be able to face the hurt and the damage, though honestly I am not sure and MLCer will ever be able to understand the full scope of what we have gone through.  I have found the only people that do really are other LBS.

[The lighthouse]

Everyone has a shadow.  I believe that everyone has things about themselves that they wish they could change, things they have done in the past that they wish they had handled differently....regrets.  If you don't have regrets...you may have not have truly lived your life.

Does he somewhat make light of what she went through?  Possibly.  I don't want to make excuses for him.  But.  (Always a but  ) - I am guessing that actually thinking about and FACING the pain that he put his family through is still very difficult for him. 

Yes.  Most of what he wrote was "all about him."  Well, he was describing HIS crisis.  It clearly showed that it had little (if anything) to do with his wife or family.  He wrote of his childhood - and things that had occurred way before he met and married his wife.

He sounds like a man full of regret..but accepting of what he did and the aftermath.  He does not blame his wife for not wanting to reconcile.  How can he?  Well, he could...if he were still living a life of denial.

Spot on Limitless!  This is how I see it too, but you put it better than I did.

[a]

Hi

I know i should not be asking this here but it appears that when the thread gets to 15 pages its time to start a new thread.  I have tried to look through the how do you threads but cannot seem to find what common practice is regarding length of threads.  Should i start a part 2 of this topic?

thank you
moment

[a]

okay found the source so starting part 2 of this thread

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5399.0

take care moment