[Velika]

Previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8607.0;all#lastPost

[bvFTD]

Excellent research, Velika:

So, their thoughts are in a continuous loop or can't be suppressed in order to function normally. These researchers mention schizophrenia and PTSD, but the discovery sounds helpful also for people who have OCD, which can also be debilitating.

I think it's great they are studying the brain's NETWORKS and connecting related frontal lobe dysfunctions/diseases.

Just watched a documentary about a 13-year-old sociopath who killed his little sister. The mother had mentioned to his pediatrician when her son was just a toddler that he bit all the fur off his stuffed teddy bear at night. She also said that he constantly picked at the pills on sweaters.

My husband, who has now has lost all morals, empathy and emotions due to his ftd, and can be considered as having acquired sociopathy, isn't a "picker," but he taps his toes, slaps his thigh, snaps his fingers and rocks furiously back and forth if he has to sit in a chair. These movements are called motor stereotypies. Verbal stereotypies may include whistling or singing.

Can't wait for all these researchers to out their brains together.

[bvFTD]

Just wanted to mention another late-stage verbal stereotypy: Some people with ftd may actually start barking like a dog. Where do you think the expression, "barking mad" came from?

[bvFTD]

Re: The young sociopath in the documentary. His grandmother was accused of killing her husband when she was 29 but was found not guilty.

genengnews.com

"Parasite Linked with Alzheimer's and Parkinson's Diseases, Epilepsy and Cancers"

"About 1/3 of the world's population is chronically infected with the protozoan parasite Toxoplasma Gondi.
. . . Most people with a healthy immune system will develop no symptoms from infection. Individuals with compromised immune systems, however, are at risk for more serious complications . . . "

"We wanted to understand how this parasite, which lives in the brain, might contribute to and shed light on pathogens is of brain diseases . . . We suspect it involves multiple factors. At the core is alignment of characteristics of the parasite itself, the genes it expresses on the infected brain, susceptibility genes . . . Other factors may include pregnancy, stress, additional infections, and a deficient micro biome. We hypothesized that when there is a confluence of these factors, disease may occur."

[bvFTD]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Evidence for Fungal Infection in Cerebrospinal Fluid and Brain Tissue from Patients with Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis

. . .  fungal antigens, as well as DNA from several fungi, were detected in CSF from ALS patients.

. . .  The vast majority of ALS cases are sporadic (95%), whereas only a few are familial. In familial ALS, a number of mutations in several genes have been described. Relationships between ALS and other neurodegenerative diseases have been noted, particularly with frontotemporal dementia (FTD)."

Discussion

"Similar to neurodegenerative disease, fungal infections are usually chronic and progressive if untreated. Neuroinflammation is also repeatedly observed in the majority of neurodegenerative diseases, including ALS.

. . . Our previous reports have provided evidence for fungal I factions in MS and AD patients.

. . .  ALS is a heterogenous disease in which the evolution and clinical symptoms vary widely between patients; consequently, the disease can progress rapidly in some patients who die within one year from diagnosis, while other patients can survive several years after onset of clinical symptoms. The presence of different fungal species in each patient may account for the behavior.

. . .  It is well established that individual genetic background can determine the likelihood of fingal infection
. . .  An additional symptom shared by AD and ALS is the occurrence of Neuroinflammation and infiltration of T-lymphocytes in some areas of the CNS or spinal cord . . . Neuroinflammation and T cell infiltration may be consistent with microbial infection.

. . .  Another possibility should be that immune tolerance to fungal infection is lost in these patients and inflammation provokes injury and clinical symptoms."

[Velika]

Study suggests bipolar disorder may cause progressive brain damage

“For the first time, our study supports the idea that there may be on-going damage to certain regions of the brain as the illness progresses,” said the study’s lead author Raymond Deicken, MD. Deicken is the medical director of the Psychiatric Partial Hospital Program at the San Francisco VA Medical Center and UCSF associate professor of psychiatry.

The study appears in the May issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry.

More than 2 million Americans suffer from bipolar disorder, commonly known as manic depression. To date, there are no physiological markers used to diagnose the disease. Instead, it is identified by behavioral symptoms, including frequent mood swings between high-energy mania and severe depression.

Deicken and his colleagues compared brain scans of 15 non-symptomatic male patients with familial bipolar I disorder to those of 20 healthy male comparison subjects. Male subjects were chosen to control for the effects of gender.  In addition, test subjects were chosen based on several previous studies showing -that patients who have inherited the disorder have more prominent changes in brain structure and function.

Researchers determined chemical signatures of different brain structures in these two groups using proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy. One finding focused on the level of an amino acid called N-acetylaspartate, or NAA, in the hippocampus, which is made up of a right and left half and is part of a complex of neural circuits in the brain that regulate emotion and memory.

The study found significantly lower concentrations of NAA in the right hippocampus of males with bipolar disorder when compared to the control group. They also found that for the right hippocampus, bipolar patients who had the disease the longest had the lowest levels of the amino acid.  This association between length of illness and NAA appears to be confined to certain brain regions since it was not found in previous studies that involved the frontal lobe and thalamus.

NAA is the second most abundant amino acid-next to glutamate-present in brain tissue. It is a biochemical indicator of the presence of neurons and axons, plays an important role in the synthesis of neuronal proteins, and is a precursor of myelin, which acts as insulation around neurons in the brain.

“Low NAA is an indication that the integrity of neurons and/or axons has been compromised in some way, either by damage, loss or dysfunction,” Deicken said. The decrease of hippocampal NAA over time in the test subjects indicates a progressive nature of this disease. Decreasing levels of NAA are also seen in neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and multiple sclerosis.

According to Deicken, the findings also confirm the important role of the hippocampus in bipolar disorder. Brain imaging studies of patients suffering from major depression have demonstrated smaller hippocampi. Given that bipolar disorder also affects mood and emotion, it is not surprising that this study provides evidence for hippocampal damage or dysfunction in the disorder. 
The hippocampus is also important from a therapeutic standpoint since it is one of two brain regions where new neuronal growth, or neurogenesis, can occur, offering hope for reversal of damage.

NAA measurements may also help us to understand how medications work in bipolar disorder. “Lithium has been around for a long time and nobody really knows how it works,” Deicken said.  However, he points out that long-term lithium treatment has been recently shown to exert powerful protective effects in the rat brain, including damage from stroke.  It has also been shown in humans to increase both the amount of NAA and gray matter in the brain.

Finally, Deicken predicts that the monitoring of NAA levels will become invaluable in the evaluation of treatments for bipolar disorder and other psychiatric diseases-such as schizophrenia and major depression-which involve neuronal loss or dysfunction. “We’ll know we’re onto a potential treatment if a medication or other intervention manages to boost low levels of NAA toward more normal values, indicating neuronal repair or a recovery of function,” Deicken said.

[Velika]

After reading more about bipolar disorder, I wish I had attempted to approach it from this angle when bomb drop first hit. I think I would have gained more traction when talking to therapists and might have focused efforts not on talking to marriage or family counselor but to a neuropsychiatrist.

If you are newly bomb dropped and are reaching out for help, I would urge you not to use the term "midlife crisis." If your spouse is showing the symptoms below — and especially if there is a family history or recent change in medications — please discuss possibility of bipolar with professionals. Knowing the right terminology to describe what you are seeing can help!

10 Subtle Signs of Bipolar Disorder
http://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20436786,00.html

Great mood
Bipolar disorder is characterized by up-and-down episodes of mania and depression. During a manic phase, some patients can have a total break from reality.

But hypomania, which is also a symptom of the disorder, is a high-energy state in which a person feels exuberant but hasn’t lost his or her grip on reality.

"Hypomania can be a pretty enjoyable state, really," Dr. Bearden says. A person’s mood can be elevated, they may have a lot of energy and creativity, and they may experience euphoria. This is the "up" side of bipolar disorder that some people with the condition actually enjoy—while it lasts.

Inability to complete tasks
Having a house full of half-completed projects is a hallmark of bipolar disorder. People who can harness their energy when they are in a hypomanic phase can be really productive.

Those who can’t often go from task to task, planning grand, unrealistic projects that are never finished before moving on to something else.

"They can be quite distractible and may start a million things and never finish them," says Don Malone, MD, the director of the Center for Behavioral Health and chair of the Department of Psychiatry at Cleveland Clinic, in Ohio.

Depression
A person who is in a bipolar depressive state is going to look just like someone who has regular depression. "They have the same problems with energy, appetite, sleep, and focus as others who have 'plain old depression,'" Dr. Malone says.

Unfortunately, typical antidepressants alone don't work well in patients who are bipolar. They can even make people cycle more frequently, worsening their condition, or send someone into a break-with-reality episode.

"Antidepressants can be downright dangerous in people with bipolar because they can send them into mania," he says.

Irritability

Some people with this condition suffer from "mixed mania," where they experience symptoms of mania and depression at the same time. During this state, they are often extremely irritable.

Everyone has bad days, which is one reason this kind of bipolarity is much harder to recognize.

"We are all irritable or moody sometimes," Dr. Bearden says. "But in people with bipolar disorder it often becomes so severe that it interferes with their relationships—especially if the person is saying, 'I don’t know why I’m so irritable…I can’t control it.'"

Rapid speech

Some people are naturally talkative; we all know a motormouth or Chatty Cathy. But "pressured speech" is one of the most common symptoms of bipolar disorder.

This kind of speech occurs when someone is really not in a two-way conversation, Dr. Bearden says. The person will talk rapidly and if you try to speak, they will likely just talk over you.

They will also sometimes jump around to different topics. "What’s kind of a red flag is when it is atypical for the person to talk like this," doing it only when they are in a manic cycle but not at other times, she says.

Trouble at work

People with this disorder often have difficulty in the workplace because so many of their symptoms can interfere with their ability to show up for work, do their job, and interact productively with others.

In addition to having problems completing tasks, they may have difficulty sleeping, irritability, and an inflated ego during a manic phase, and depression at other times, which causes excessive sleeping and additional mood problems.

A lot of the workplace problems can be interpersonal ones, Dr. Malone says.

Alcohol or drug abuse

About 50% of people with bipolar disorder also have a substance abuse problem, particularly alcohol use, Dr. Bearden says.

Many people will drink when they are in a manic phase to slow themselves down, and use alcohol to improve their mood when they are depressed.

Erratic behavior

When they are in a manic phase, people with bipolar disorder can have an inflated self-esteem.

"They feel grandiose and don't consider consequences; everything sounds good to them," Dr. Malone says.

Two of the most common types of behavior that can result from this are spending sprees and unusual sexual behavior. "I have had a number of patients who have had affairs who never would have done that if they weren't in a manic episode…during this episode they exhibited behavior that is not consistent with what they would do normally," he says.

Sleep problems

People with this condition often have sleep problems. During a depression phase, they may sleep too much, and feel tired all the time.

During a manic phase, they may not sleep enough—but still never feel tired.

Even with just a few hours of sleep each night, they may feel great and have lots of energy.

Dr. Bearden says staying on a regular sleep schedule is one of the first things she recommends for bipolar patients.

Flight of ideas

This symptom may be something that is hard to recognize, but it occurs frequently when someone is in a manic phase. People feel like their mind is racing and that they can't control or slow down their thoughts.

This flight of ideas sometimes occurs with pressured speech.

People with bipolar may not recognize or admit that their mind is racing out of control, says Dr. Bearden.

[Velika]

Cyclothymic Disorder
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/cyclothymic-disorder

Cyclothymic disorder is a milder form of bipolar disorder, characterized by episodes of hypomanic symptoms (elevated mood and euphoria) and depressive symptoms that last for at least two years.

Definition

Cyclothymic disorder, a mild form of bipolar disorder, is characterized by chronic, fluctuating mood swings—from symptoms of depression to symptoms of hypomania. These symptoms are not sufficient in number, severity, or duration to meet the full criteria for a hypomanic or depressive episode.

Hypomania involves periods of elevated mood, euphoria, and excitement but does not disconnect a person from reality. A person with cyclothymia experiences symptoms of hypomania but no full-blown manic episodes. Hypomania may feel good to the person who experiences it and may lead to enhanced functioning and productivity. Thus, even when family and friends learn to recognize the mood swings as possible bipolar disorder, the person may deny that a problem exists. Without proper treatment, however, hypomania can become severe mania or can turn into depression.

For cyclothymic symptoms to be diagnosed, hypomanic symptoms and depressive symptoms must be present at separate times for at least two years. Approximately 0.4 percent to one percent of people will experience cyclothymia in their lifetime. The disorder usually begins in adolescence or early adulthood, and there is a 15 percent to 50 percent risk that a person with cyclothymic disorder will go on to develop bipolar I disorder or bipolar II disorder. This rate of risk is still too low to justify viewing cyclothymia as merely an early manifestation of bipolar type I disorder, as many people do recover and do not experience future symptoms of hypomania or depression. Cyclothymic disorder is equally common in males and females.

Symptoms

For at least two years (one year for children and adolescents), the individual displays periods of hypomanic symptoms and periods of depressive symptoms that do not meet criteria for a hypomanic or major depressive episode.

Hypomanic symptoms are similar to manic symptoms but are shorter in duration and not as severe.

Signs and symptoms of hypomania include:

Increased energy, restlessness, and activity
Excessively "high," overly good, euphoric mood
Irritability
Racing thoughts and speech, jumping from one idea to another
Distractibility, inability to concentrate
Being more talkative than usual or feeling pressure to keep talking
Needing little sleep
Unrealistic beliefs in one's abilities and powers
Poor judgment
Spending sprees
A lasting period of behavior that is different from usual
Increased sex drive
Abuse of drugs, particularly cocaine, sleeping medications, and alcohol
Provocative, intrusive, or aggressive behavior
Denial that anything is wrong
A hypomanic episode is diagnosed if elevated mood occurs alongside three or more other symptoms most of the day, nearly every day, for four days or longer. If the mood is irritable, four additional symptoms must be present. A manic episode is diagnosed if symptoms continue for one week or longer.

Depressive symptoms include:

Persistent sadness
Fatigue or listlessness
Excessive sleepiness OR inability to sleep
Loss of appetite and weight loss OR overeating and weight gain
Loss of self-esteem
Feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness and, or, guilt
Difficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions
Withdrawal from friends
Withdrawal from activities that were once enjoyed
Persistent thoughts of death

An individual may be diagnosed with cyclothymic disorder if:

During the two-year period (one year for younger patients), symptoms are not absent for more than two consecutive months.
The patient has never had a major depressive episode or any manic or mixed manic episodes.
The disorder does not exist only in the context of a psychotic disorder.
Symptoms are not directly a result of a medical condition or substance usage.
Symptoms result in significant distress or impaired functioning in social, work, or personal areas.

It is not uncommon for people with cyclothymic disorder to also have diagnoses of substance-related disorders and sleep disorders. Children with cyclothymic disorder are also more likely to have attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder than other pediatric patients.

Causes

The cause of cyclothymic disorder is unknown. Although mood swings are irregular and abrupt, the severity of the mood swings is far less extreme than in people with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive illness). Unlike with bipolar disorder, periods of hypomania do not turn into mania, in which the person may lose control over his or her behavior and go on spending binges, engage in risky sexual behavior or drug use, and lose touch with reality.

Hypomanic periods are energizing and can result in productivity for some people, while for others these periods can cause impulsive and callous behavior, which can damage relationships. Because hypomania feels good, people with cyclothymia may not seek treatment.

To understand the causes of cyclothymia, it may be useful to explore the causes of bipolar disorder.

Most scientists now agree that there is no single cause of bipolar disorders—rather, many factors act together to produce these conditions. It is known, however, that major depressive disorder, bipolar I disorder, and bipolar II disorder are more common among close biological relatives of individuals with cyclothymic disorder.

Because bipolar disorders tend to run in families, researchers search for specific genes that may increase an individual's chance of developing the illness. But genes are not the whole story. Studies of identical twins, who share all the same genes, indicate that both genes and other factors play a role in bipolar disorder. If bipolar disorder were caused entirely by genes, then the identical twin of someone with the illness would always develop it, and this is not the case. But if one twin has bipolar disorder, the other twin is more likely to develop it than is another nontwin sibling.

Bipolar disorder, like other mental illnesses, does not occur because of a single gene. It appears likely that many different genes act together, and in combination with other factors of the individual or in the individual's environment. Finding these genes, each of which contributes only a small amount toward the likelihood of bipolar disorder, has been extremely difficult. But scientists expect that advanced research tools currently in use will lead to more effective treatments.

[Thunder]

Velika, that article describing Bipolar was good.

My niece is bipolar, showed up in her very early 20's, but everything I just read fit her like a glove.
When she stays on her meds. she's pretty good, but then she goes off them for the high feeling she misses...and gets a little crazy again.  It's true there are stages of her illness she likes.

[Velika]

Velika, that article describing Bipolar was good.

My niece is bipolar, showed up in her very early 20's, but everything I just read fit her like a glove.
When she stays on her meds. she's pretty good, but then she goes off them for the high feeling she misses...and gets a little crazy again.  It's true there are stages of her illness she likes.

Yes. I’m posting it here because I think it is important for people to rule out bipolar and cyclothemia before they start to assume their spouse is having a crisis. Knowing the symptoms may make it easier to seek help and communicate with doctors and therapists.

[bvFTD]

I agree, Velika. I think many of our spouses are having a Medical Crisis that emerged in Midlife.

As well as ruling out bipolar, cyclothemia and frontotemporal dementia, neurologists advise also ruling out Central Nervous System Autoimmune Disorders.

I follow a woman's blog whose husband started experiencing gradual behavioral change way back in 2002 (withdrawal from family; flattened personality; loss of jobs - not the shocking behaviors most of us see). He was diagnosed in 2014 with ftd, but his progression has been so slow and unusual for ftd that another neurologist ran some more blood tests outside of those usually performed in routine dementia screening. His new diagnosis is: Autoimmune Dementia.

She wrote that a neurologist at Mayo said, "Although autoimmune dementia responds to immunotherapy, the disease often goes untreated because of misdiagnosis as a neurodegenerative or psychiatric condition. It can be devastating for patients to be labeled with a neurodegenerative disease but actually have an immune-mediated dementia, because they're missing out on a treatment that can reverse their symptoms. If treatment is delayed, patients not to respond as well."

My recommendation is to skip the marriage counselor. Try like hell to get your loved one to a neurologist.

[Anjae]

Since, in many ways, MLC mimics bipolar, but it isn't bipolar, going by the signs wouldn't mean much. My cousin who had MLC was diagnosed with every mental illness in the book, including bipolar. He was medicated to all those illnesses. The meds made a number on him, and he nearly killed himself. He saw many psychiatrits and cousellor. Each had a different diagnose, and different set of meds. My cousin had a very mild MLC. It has ended years ago and he is fine.

Doctors don't know a thing about MLC. More times than not, they will diagnose a person with a mental illness the person does not have. Or even with a neurological illness the person does not have, like bvFTD.

And, the good old problem persists, MLCers go back to normal once the crisis is over, people with bipolar, other mental illness or bvFTD do not. Also, as it often been said/written, people with mental illness have MLC. OldPilots mother, that is bipolar, had MLC.

The two of you keeo trowing stuff after stuff, missing the obvious, MLCers go back to normal after the crisis. And having a person in MLC, that can be confused with bipolar, treated for something they do not have will only cause damages, and may, in fact, end up leaving the person suffering from bipolar.

Sure, except, the MLCer will refuse to go. The neurologist may get it all wrong, let alone the psychiatrist. Phychiatrists can't even correctly diagnose well kwown mental illness, let alone to differenciate them from MLC. Not to mention psychiatrists have the habit of prescribing SSRI, even if those only work in 50% of the cases and of those 25% will fall back into depression - there are non-SSRI antidepressants, like Bupropriom (Wellbutrin/Elontril) that works on Dopamine and others, but even those don't always work.

And, yet, Depression is far more than a problem of imbalanced neurotrasmiters, and clearly, in most cases it has nothing to do with serotonine. If it had, SSRIs would work. They don't. No one really knows what causes depesssion (aside from thing like thyroid problems, Vitamin D deficiency, or etc.), how to treat, etc.

But, here you two are, talking like if doctors have the solution even if they are incapable of curing something as common as depression. Aside from situational or temporary depression. Those can be cured.

What about the few MLCers, that actually got to a doctor, were diagnosed with bipolar, or other thing, and remain exactly as they were? The diagnose, the medication, changed nothing. Isn't that a bit strange?

Ready2's husband was diagnosed with bipolar, but he was given SSRIs. Why would a doctor give SSRIs for bipolar? SSRI's are for seratonine. How did the doctor knew her husband's problem was with serotonine? Clearly didn't because it seemed the meds messed Ready2's husband.

And I have seen you, Velika, speaking about the problems SSRI's cause. So, either the doctors get it wrong, or they know what they are doing.

Of course, some doctor may at times get it right, but, as a general rule, psychiatrits get if wrong, at least for years on end (on average, a correct diagnose of bipolar takes 10 years) will prescribe the wrong medication and don't see behind the meds. We all know how it is with anti-depressants. How many people have to keep changing them because of the horrible side effects?

No, I am not saying don't take the meds. If the meds are correctly prescribed they can help. And meds are certainly important to balace a schizophrenic or a bipolar person. Providing the meds are right and the person is taking them. But the meds to not cure those illnesses. At present, at least as far as psychiatry is concerned, there is no cure for those illnesses.


I am just saying, don't put that much faith in psychiatric diagnoses.

And I wouldn't trust a neurologist or psychiatrist when it comes to MLC. They will most likely say it is something else and mess up big time.

P.S. There is also Tresur's husband. He has been followed by a psychiatrist for two years. He is not getting any better, on the contrary, he is getting worst. And there are several more where the space is happening/happened.

What I would go with would be a checking for mineral, vitamins, hormonal levels of all sorts. Be it with Depression or MLC.

Of couse sometimes, many times, Thunder, people have mental issues. That is not the question. The probem is Velika and bvFTD thinking everyone one of us had a spouse with far more than MLC and that a doctor would be able to solve the problem. It wouldn't. The MCLers that were seen, and medicated, by a doctor, didn't come out of MCL and, in some cases, it only made things worst.

It also does not invalidate that there is not current cure for bipolar or schizophrenia or several other things. Nor that doctors confuse MLC with bipolar. Or borderline. Or other things. Nor that MLCers come out of crisis and go back to normal. Your niece will not. And since she is not taking her meds, well, having a doctor doesn't really solve the problem, does it? It doesn't because the problem is far more complicated than doctor and giving meds. And no one really knows what the illness really is.

[Thunder]

V, I think it's good people look at different reasons for their spouse to go off the rails.

I do think most of the time it is just your garden variety MLC crisis, but people do sometimes truly have a mental illness.
In which case there are medications for some of them.

My niece is pretty good when she sticks to her meds, but it's hard to force her to stay on them, she's an adult.  Her family has just had enough and has nothing to do with her after years of dealing with this.  They just wrote her off.
It's a very sad disease.

[Velika]

Anjae, many articles mention that people with bipolar should not take SSRIs because they can trigger mania. My ex and my former SIL issues began following prescription of Paxil.

Cyclothemia is actually a lot like MLC, in that it can go away after a period of two+ years. However, it can also turn into full-blown depression or bipolar. This aligns with the MLC pattern often detailed here and on other sites. Perhaps what many of us are witnessing is not bipolar but cyclothemia.

I think it is unethical to tell people not to seek a medical opinion. In fact, I think this should be the first recommendation here. Does this mean that the person will comply? Maybe not, but maybe. Each situation is unique.

If someone comes here and reads the symptoms of bipolar or cyclothemia and they resonate, I hope they will consider finding a caring mental health professional. Please do not be intimidated or discouraged just because this has not worked for others.

[Anjae]

I know. I am not the one who prescribe them, doctors did. On the other hand, articles say that SSRI's can be taken for bipolar, but with a mood stabilizer. In any case, whatever the antidepressant, with bipolar, there should always be a mood stabilizer, but that is not always the case. Doctors don't always do precribe them.

There are articles that say one thing, and articles that say another. The truth is no one knows what causes Bipolar or Depression (aside from some of the cases I mentioned on my post). No one. There are tons of ideas, but no one knows the real cause.

But you have no way of knowing why the problems begin. That is, you do not know if the med brought the problems or if the problems were there and the made just made them worst of if it is just a coincidence.

Many non bipolar people have problems with SSRIs, mostly with side effects, or because they don't work.

Does your husband has bipolar? Or some doctor just thinks/says he does? Since MLC mimics bipolar, I wouldn't put my money on him having bipolar. Nor on SSRI causing MLC. Years before MLC Mr J had a problem with Prozac. It drove him crazy. But it didn't cause any the things that, latter, come with MLC. None of them.

SSRI's also caused problems for my cousin that had MLC. But, once MLC was over, my cousin went back to normal.

Also, it is possible that the neurotrasmitters imbalance is not the cause, but a symptom or consequence of another issue/health issue. By guess? It often comes with stress (cortisol) and/or adrenaline. Among other things.

I am familiar with Cyclothemia. Cyclothemia can go away, but, usually, it does not. Also, MCL does not go away after two years. Not even after 8 or 10.

Velika, what is unethical is going around attributing bvFTD and other illnesses to people and posting to them on their threads that is what their spouses have.

I have given three examples of MLCers who have seen a doctor, my cousin, Ready2's husband and Treasur's husband. The doctors only made it all worse.

We can recognise the symptoms of bipolar or cyclothemia and they may resonate, because MLC mimics it, but that does not mean someone has it. And since doctors will often label someone who has MCL bipolar and do more harm than good, I really don't see much of a point.

It does pretty much not work for any MLCer (just like therapy also doesn't). Just like it does not even work for most people with Depression or Bipolar, for the second, mostly because they stop taking the meds.

I am not sure what you want or what is your agenda, Velika. Or even what you are doing here. You don't believe in MLC. You think it is Bipolar, or Cyclothemia or bvFTD or some thing else, depending of whatever it is you know think fits. Why don't you take your husband to a doctor and have his problem solved? After all, if it may Bipolar or Cyclothemia, there is medical help and the matter can be solved, right?

And there are foruns for that. Or for bvFTD. But HS is not for that.

HS is for people with MLC. MLC cannot be solved by a psychiatrist (aside by one who believes in MLC, and even then, all the doctor may be able to do is to know it is not another illness) nor by a therapist (there isn't anyone on HS with a spouse having a real midlife crisis - midlife transition is different - that has had any success with a therapist for their MLCer). Nor by a neurologist.

It may be solvable, and I think it is, by a doctor who pays attention to minerals, vitamins and hormones. But psychiatrist, neurologist and therapists usually don't pay attention to those things.
 
This is going down the usual path. You and bvFTD keep going around with the same stuff, or bringing up every single stuff that may somehow fit, but has nothing to do with MCL. None of you believes in MLC. Your spouses do not have MLC. After all this time, I still don't understand what any of you is doing here.

Show me a success story with a MLCer, a real MLCer, that has been taken to a doctor or therapist while in Replay. Can you found one? I have been on HS for years, and I have never heard of one single case where it worked.

[Ready2Transform]

I have given three examples of MLCers who have seen a doctor, my cousin, Ready2's husband and Treasur's husband. The doctors only made it all worse.

I wish I could disagree, but I don't. My xH saw his medical doctor, his psychiatrist, and a therapist all within a six month span when he was first ramping up in symptoms. He desperately wanted to be better. He got horribly worse.

Would it have gotten even worse without medical intervention? I have no clue. I reached a point eventually where I stopped playing the "What if..." game. I know my xH is a sovereign person who is able to function to some extent in his life, so he is able to make choices for his own care. Whether or not that leads to more treatment is up to him now. I use everything I've read to know I did the best I could to help him - what any rational person would have done. I use what I know about depression and biochemical health to help myself stay stable now in the face of all of this.

I don't think it's wrong to study at all. I did it for years. But keep an open mind. It really could be a ton of different things or none of them. But in any case, it's up to our respective spouses to seek the help they need, if they feel they need it. For most of us, we did all we really could.

[bvFTD]

Anjae:

It is imperative we take our spouses to a neurologist at a University Hospital.

I wonder if the psychiatrist Treasur's husband is seeing has given him mental status tests, a MRI, SPECT or PET scan, talked with Treasur about personality changes, checked reflexes and for frontal release signs, or even asked him to draw a CLOCK.

[bvFTD]

I understand the advice that it is up to our spouse's to get help, but at least in my case, my husband never would have, because the disease has destroyed the part of his brain that provides insight that something may be terribly wrong.

He will have no inkling, even at the end, that he is the least bit sick. Our children and I carry that burden.

[Velika]

Anjae, I am not advocating anything different from the legal disclaimer at the bottom of the page. I am saying, it may not help to see a doctor — but it might, and there is probably a number of best practices for optimum results should this be the route a LBS decides is best for his/her situation.

I would like to hope that one day this is well known enough so that people will know about bomb drop and this cluster of behavior and symptoms before they are bomb dropped — so that if it happens they can better understand what might be going on and what to do.

You keep writing that bv and I don’t believe in MLC but that’s not true. The description and dynamics RCR writes are very accurate. However, there is currently no true medical description for MLC, even when there are tons of breakthroughs in brain research.

On a forum no one really has an idea of who they are taking possibly life altering advice from. That is why it is critical to have a real life support team of the best experts possible, to be open minded about approaches, and to choose the route and make decisions based on what YOU know is true for YOUR SITUATION.

[Ready2Transform]

Anjae:

It is imperative we take our spouses to a neurologist at a University Hospital.

I wonder if the psychiatrist Treasur's husband is seeing has given him mental status tests, a MRI, SPECT or PET scan, talked with Treasur about personality changes, checked reflexes and for frontal release signs, or even asked him to draw a CLOCK.

I think that's what ideally we would all like to do. In many cases here on the forum where our spouses sought some sort of intervention, they got the best they could afford. I was the primary on our insurance due to owning my own small business and him not working, and it wasn't a bad plan at all (as long as you stay healthy!). But still, the referral he got from his primary (who spent more time prescribing drugs than doing any sort of indepth testing - he said the psych would handle that) was for the county psychiatric center, not a research hospital. We didn't have the option to just make appointments with specialists because there is no way we could have paid for that outside of our plan and we needed the referral. Even with my business doing well, it was impossible to get ahead until after he was out of the house. He presented as being more psychologically disturbed than neurologically (as they all do), so I would never have questioned the doctor's referral. It's good for newbies to know to ask, but for some, the options will still be few.

[Treasur]

I agree with a lot of what Ready and Anjae has said.
Without rehashing the details, if a spouse chooses to exclude you from information on their medical care, nothing you can do here in the UK. I have my own opinions about how well - or not - my STBXH's choices have worked for him but of course I know very little about his treatment or medication or behaviour with other people or bits of his life. He told me a little in the first few months. He's told me a few things in the last few months. But he lies a lot and I haven't seen him for 18 months, so there's no way to know what's really happening or what's true. I suppose logically, after over 2 years, I think he should be behaving differently...I remember him living happily without a psychiatrist or drugs for 18 years, and a lot of his behaviour seems pretty odd still....but it's just my opinion and not based on much info at all.

The big issue for me about all of this - and I do understand the deep need to grasp at the cause or see if understanding what's happening in a different way creates more alternative choices for how an LBS acts - is that it doesn't change the reality of what is and it risks investing energy that an LBS can more productively invest elsewhere in their life.

It seems to me that there is a point where trying to understand is helpful, and then beyond that it just keeps our eyes focused on things we can't change or influence. Just my opinion.

[bvFTD]

I think it matters a great deal if they have a serious psychiatric or neurological disorder, particularly when it comes to child custody. Disordered people and the equally disturbed people they start associating with can cause a great deal of damage to our children.

Do you know that divorce rates have fallen in all age groups except for those in midlife? A Canadian neurologist who specializes in ftd mentions the stat in her lectures. Red flag is a change of spouse.

It is my fervent hope that family lawyers will stop arrogantly and lazily thinking breakups are boilerplate, but instead start listening carefully to the reasons behind the destruction of formerly happy and satisfying marriages, and be as alarmed as we are at our spouse's new shocking and uncharacteristic behaviors, followed by ordering the Abandoner to undergo a psych eval to prove he is fit to be a parent.

These so-called Family Courts do not seem to have the best interests of children in mind at all.

[xyzcf]

Treasur, this is so very true:

“that it doesn't change the reality of what is and it risks investing energy that an LBS can more productively invest elsewhere in their life.

It seems to me that there is a point where trying to understand is helpful, and then beyond that it just keeps our eyes focused on things we can't change or influence. “

Heartsblessing used to say “ let them blow in the wind and crack their heads”.  This really is their journey. Like someone who has an addiction, they will not change until they themselves  make the decision to do so, or the crisis resolved itself in ways that are not clearly understood but which does happen.

I also think it is dangerous to be suggesting so many clinical diagnosis when these posters are not qualified medical professionals. It reminds me of being a hyperchondriac only searching endlessly for  yet another diagnosis to cling to.

And this clinging does not allow the LBSer to focus on their life and their growth. As has been mentioned hundreds of times, MLC ends at some point and they do return to normal behavior. That is the reality of MLC.

[Ready2Transform]

It's a Catch-22 because we have no idea who will return to sanity 5 years down the road, and who is a ticking time bomb with a serious problem that should addressed. There are likely both cases (and much more in the gray area!) represented on this forum due to our stories having similarities, but also being unique to our own circumstances. We just have to be kind with one another and know that we all have the same goals at the end of the day. If marriages, families, and lives can be saved, we all want that. We all want LBSs to be strong and whole again. And we all have a different way of expressing that and coping with our grief. Study helped me for part of my journey, self-focus for another, so I get both sides. Many of us at the 5+ year point may be encouraging self-focus more because we're now aware of how much time we spent MLCer focused that we can't get back, and we want to save others that frustration. But ultimately, everybody will have to walk their own path with it.

[bvFTD]

Psychiatric Advisor

Bipolar Disorder and Association with Immune Dysfunction

"Increased risk of general comorbities (GMC) in patients with bipolar disorder (BD) may be mediated by immune dysfunction. The life expectancy of individuals with BD is approximately 11 to 20 years fewer than that of the general population, which is believed to be caused primarily by the elevated prevalence if GMC in BD. For example, cardiovascular disease is more common in individuals with BD vs healthy controls and individuals with other mental disorders, and it is the top cause of mortality in BD. Additionally, diabetes-related death is more common in individuals with BD compared with the general population . . .

To clarify the mechanisms underlying the association between BD and GMc, the authors aimed to explore the role of metabolic-inflammatory dysfunction and related treatment implications. They summarized epidemiological research showing a high prevalence of comorbid inflammatory conditions in BD, including numerous allergies, asthma, metabolic syndrome and numerous autoimmune diseases such as Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS), rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, erythematosus and autoimmune thyroiditis."

[Thunder]

Ftd, if you think lawyers are going to start caring whether spouse is ill or not you'll be waiting a long time.  Lawyers could care less.  Just want their money..and I suppose realistically they really should be removed from emotions when dealing with a D.  I mean they do just hearing one side of the story.  They can only assume there is another side to it.
But it's not their business to get involved on a personal level.

Something needs to change, but it "ain't" gonna be the lawyers.

I also agree with treasur, xyzcf.

[Velika]

Treasur, this is so very true:

“that it doesn't change the reality of what is and it risks investing energy that an LBS can more productively invest elsewhere in their life.

It seems to me that there is a point where trying to understand is helpful, and then beyond that it just keeps our eyes focused on things we can't change or influence. “

Heartsblessing used to say “ let them blow in the wind and crack their heads”.  This really is their journey. Like someone who has an addiction, they will not change until they themselves  make the decision to do so, or the crisis resolved itself in ways that are not clearly understood but which does happen.

I also think it is dangerous to be suggesting so many clinical diagnosis when these posters are not qualified medical professionals. It reminds me of being a hyperchondriac only searching endlessly for  yet another diagnosis to cling to.

And this clinging does not allow the LBSer to focus on their life and their growth. As has been mentioned hundreds of times, MLC ends at some point and they do return to normal behavior. That is the reality of MLC.

We are saying go to a doctor. At least try to go to a doctor! Just try this real life option.

You don’t have to be a qualified medical professional to say, go to a doctor. Try to have this checked out.

[xyzcf]

We are saying go to a doctor. At least try to go to a doctor! Just try this real life option.

You don’t have to be a qualified medical professional to say, go to a doctor. Try to have this checked out.

As has been repeatedly stated, many, many of our spouses have seen doctors and nothing has been identified, nor have their conditions deteriorated.

As well, you cannot make someone "go to a doctor", especially not someone who is having a mid life crisis.

Have you been successful at getting your husband to see a doctor?

[Velika]

No I was not because when this started I thought he was having an existential crisis/affair. So I went to a marriage counselor and other therapists — with him — and attempted over and over again to reason with him.

Because I had no tools or direction or medical understanding of the time, I did not have language that might have helped communicate that this was or could be a medical emergency. I didn’t know which things to emphasize. These include:

Flat affect.
Radical personality change.
Mania/euphoria.
Sleeplessness
hypersexuality
Family history of unipolar and bipolar depression.
Recent new SSRI.
Long term use klonipin in tandem with SSRI without psychiatrist oversight.
Radical change to spending patterns.
Loss of empathy.
Change to eye, speech pattern, and humor.

I would have used the slim window of opportunity I had when he agreed to go to a counselor with me to go to a psychiatrist counselor. I also would have used his clinging behaviors to attempt to find a time when he was having meltdown to call 911.

So while yes it may be a long shot and there is the issue of timing, I think there is a right way to approach it for best outcome. It is worth at least a try.

[Anjae]

I wish I could disagree, but I don't. My xH saw his medical doctor, his psychiatrist, and a therapist all within a six month span when he was first ramping up in symptoms. He desperately wanted to be better. He got horribly worse.

Would it have gotten even worse without medical intervention? I have no clue.

Impossible to know if your husband would had got worst without medical help. But it is a fact medical help didn't work and make him become worst than he was.

Anjae:

It is imperative we take our spouses to a neurologist at a University Hospital.

No, it isn't. MLC does not require a neurologist. In my opinion, it may required a good GP versed in hormones, especially the many effects of cortisol and adrenaline, and who is capable of asking for blood tests including vitamin and mineral levels.

Also, here, you can't just go to a neurologist at a University Hospital. We have a National Health Service, the University Hospitals are state owened.

We don't just decide, oh, I want the University Hospital neurologist. Those are for people that are refered by their GP, or their psychiatrist, or for people who had strokes or any other medical condition and where treated on a University Hospital, or another NHS hospital that may think people need a neurologist in one of those. There aren't those many University Hospitals neurologists here.

I wonder if the psychiatrist Treasur's husband is seeing has given him mental status tests, a MRI, SPECT or PET scan, talked with Treasur about personality changes, checked reflexes and for frontal release signs, or even asked him to draw a CLOCK.

Don't know how it is in the UK, here, as a general rule, psychiatrists do not do/ask for those tests. A GP may do. Both a psychiatrist of a GP can recommend a person to see a neurogist. Phychiatrists don't tend to ask for any tests, maybe aside blood tests to exclude thyroid problems.

Draw a clock? I can assure Mr J is perfectly capable of drawing a clock. So was my cousin. I can also assure Mr J, MLC aside, is fine. There is no degerenative illness.

Do you know that divorce rates have fallen in all age groups except for those in midlife? A Canadian neurologist who specializes in ftd mentions the stat in her lectures. Red flag is a change of spouse.

Where? I don't live in the US. Our divorce rate is much higher than 50%, more around 70%.

A change in spouse may mean many things other than  ftd. Thyroid problems, depression, issues caused for lack of sleep, peri-menopause and menopause, etc. FTD is not the only thing that changes a spouse.

Layers couldn't care less. They make money out of divorces. Also, here, if a person wants to divorce someone with a mental illness of neuroligical degenerative disease, the person wanting to divorce will have to support the ill person for life. I fail to see how going for a psychatric diagnose or a neurological degenerative one for the MLCer would benefit anyone in my country. It wouldn't.

Different countries, different, laws. Same for divorce rates. I have written in several places that here, most young people do not marry, and a second marriage is rare, and getting rarer. People live together.

April 16, 2018, 06:47:09 PM »
It's a Catch-22 because we have no idea who will return to sanity 5 years down the road, and who is a ticking time bomb with a serious problem that should addressed.

Return to sanity in 5 years? For most MLCers that will not happen in 5 years. Maybe in 7, or 10 or 15. 5 years is short for many MLC crisis. I don't really think it is a catch 22 for most, if not nearly all MLCers. MLCers are having a MLC.

Flat affect.
Radical personality change.
Mania/euphoria.
Sleeplessness
hypersexuality
Family history of unipolar and bipolar depression.
Recent new SSRI.
Long term use klonipin in tandem with SSRI without psychiatrist oversight.
Radical change to spending patterns.
Loss of empathy.
Change to eye, speech pattern, and humor.

This are all pretty much standard MLC signs, or even depression signs, aside from the "Long term use klonipin in tandem with SSRI without psychiatrist oversight". The "Recent new SSRI" may, or may, have anything to do with it.

Most MLCers are not on a SSRI nor where at BD or after. People not in MLC also have problems with SSRI. They may, or may not, have anything to do with it.

You keep writing that bv and I don’t believe in MLC but that’s not true. The description and dynamics RCR writes are very accurate. However, there is currently no true medical description for MLC, even when there are tons of breakthroughs in brain research.

You don't. Bv goes around people threads saying their spouses have bvFTD, therefore, if they have bvFTD they do not have MLC. She has even gone so far as writing that MLC does not exist. You have also said something similar.

There was no medical description of many illnesses for years on end. It did not mean they didn't exist. So far, breakthroughs in brain research have done little to nothing when it comes to mental illness. They also haven't done much for dementias, aside from Parkinson's, some treatments reduce, or prevent the sympthoms from spreading. No brain research as yet solved Alzeimer's, for example (sadly, as my paternal grandmother has  it and is getting worst and worst).

Yes, there are brain surgeries that where not possible in the past, there are many exciting things being discovered, but many things still don't have a solution. One day I am certain they will.

[bvFTD]

Yes, it's worth a try, Velika, and we all do the best we can.

Thunder: Change is often slow and ponderous, until the tsunami hits. I am not only calling on Family and Criminal Courts to help us out, but also companies to hold FTD (and other mental disorders) Awareness Workshops to alert coworkers and management to altered behavior so these people can be urged/ordered to seek help if they want to keep their jobs because they often don't listen to us. If they are found to be ill they will then be entitled to disability and their family and friends they hurt and alienated will understand.

I've also written my state's Health And Human Service Office about my particular concern. Many people on this site have lamented that MLC isn't recognized even though it's so destructive. Well, please, make your voices heard!

[Anjae]

MLC awareness... would be great, but I doubt it would have much effect. MLCers tend to break marriages, but many of them can hold a job and be good at it. They are not a menace to society.

Like my lawyers says, no one cares if someone has an affair or goes live with someone they are not married to. It is impossible to prevent a person from leaving, have an affair of go live  with someone else.

MLC is destructive to the LBS, but not to society. Society benefits from it. Divorce lawyers, real estate agents, cars/motorbikes dealers, travel agents, marriage industry (some MLCers remarry), etc. No one cares.

[xyzcf]

but also companies to hold FTD (and other mental disorders) Awareness Workshops to alert coworkers and management to altered behavior so these people can be urged/ordered to seek help if they want to keep their jobs because they often don't listen to us.

I doubt that companies are going to "order" people to seek help. Heck, they cannot even successfully "order" medical personal to get flu shots to protect their vulnerable patients.

Especially in the USA, individual rights are incredibly powerful.

Many MLCers function very well at work. Indeed, many are workaholics who are tremendously successful in their roles....and anyway, the "company" doesn't usually see a problem when a spouse divorces their partner..it happens all the time.

Getting to a neurologist requires that you have health insurance to cover such a referral and often a GP who would need to order such a referral which based upon rather "normal" looking MLCers, is quite unlikely to happen.

I would have used the slim window of opportunity I had when he agreed to go to a counselor with me to go to a psychiatrist counselor. I also would have used his clinging behaviors to attempt to find a time when he was having meltdown to call 911.

I doubt that calling 911 would have gotten the response that you would like. They see far "sicker" individuals than our MLCers and even then are not able to hold them or force them to seek treatment. Drug addicts for example are administered narcan when they OD and little more is done for them.

What we see with MLC may be similar to other conditions, but that doesn't mean it is something physiological especially because when the crisis is over, they return to a more normal state. Some even return home to their loved ones and live happily ever after!

[Velika]

I was reading recently about theory of mind. This means understanding that not everyone is you.

bv’s advice might help SOME people. Some people who are not you! Just like maybe a thread on another topic might benefit some people, but not you.

I disagree about mental health not being affected by breakthrough. I actually feel that the brain is really on the verge of being much better understood. Just a few weeks ago it was announced there is a whole new body system identified thanks to new scanning technology.

Due to the internet, many social movements have gained unheard of speed and support thanks to brave people who spoke up and other brave people who listened to them. Many of the headline movements we hear about have humble origins.

Please stop telling people don’t try this it doesn’t work. Let them try a different approach and benefit from others’ ideas, research, and insights.

[xyzcf]

Please stop telling people don’t try this it doesn’t work. Let them try a different approach and benefit from others’ ideas, research, and insights.

As much as possible I want LBSers to focus on themselves, their financial safety and to learn about MLC. I see no benefit in focusing on these obscure neurological diagnosis. In fact, I think this is very confusing for people who need to know how to deal with the reality of MLC.

The articles and other resources that discuss MLC are very valid and helpful to get through the mess that this crisis causes our loved ones.

There is enough information to digest about MLC rather than add all kinds of information about medical conditions that do not seem to have been the cause of the crisis in any other member other than bvFTD's...I haven't seen anyone write that they MLCer was diagnosed with these conditions in thousands of postings...but I have seen evidence of MLC and my belief is that it is important to educate people about what I know to be true.

I have also not seen that there is a darn thing the LBSer can do to change the course of this. Living to find some way to "help" the MLCer is not effective for them, nor does it help the LBSer get on with their lives.

[Anjae]

I disagree about mental health not being affected by breakthrough. I actually feel that the brain is really on the verge of being much better understood. Just a few weeks ago it was announced there is a whole new body system identified thanks to new scanning technology.

Velika, I think you are either confusing things, or not reading. I agre the brain is being much better understood. New future findings, when on clinical practice (there is a big difference and distance between science breakthroughs/knowledge and clinical practice) may, and most likely will, change things for the better.

But, right now, none of those findings is changing a thing as far as mental illness, or even Alzeimer's is concerned.

Maybe you don't remember. I have said, a while ago, that I think psychiatry will disapperear. At best, it will be integrated in neurology.

Psychiatry is outdated and not catching up - I have said this many times. But, again, there is a difference between reseach, findings, science and medicine - something being included as standard practice in clinical practice.

Is there, currently, a cure for Bipolar, Borderline, Depression (aside from the cases I mentioned on a previous post), Schizophrenia, Ftd, Alzeimer's, etc? No, there isn't. Tomorrow they may be. Today there isn't.

Please stop telling people don’t try this it doesn’t work. Let them try a different approach and benefit from others’ ideas, research, and insights.

Since people on HS (and in real life) have tried doctors and it didn't work, I have no idea what other different approach should they go for. Therapy also doesn't work. So, exactly what should they do? So far, no known thing works in MLCer.

I actually think MLC is solvable. I don't think it has to do with child issues. But MLCers leave and there is little than can be done. And even before they leave, if they don't want to go see a doctor, we can't drag them to a doctor. Since MLCers that saw a doctor didn't got their MLC solved, it is fair to say that doctors don't know how to deal with MLC/how to solve it.

I have also not seen that there is a darn thing the LBSer can do to change the course of this.

Nor have I.

Living to find some way to "help" the MLCer is not effective for them, nor does it help the LBSer get on with their lives.

This.

The neurology thing is great for neuroscience geeks like myself, who has been years down BD and has no children. And who has taken a few neuroscience/neurobiology/genetics courses. But none of those courses provides a way of solving MLC.

You know Velika, there isn't even a way of telling if someone is having an ischemic or an hemorrhagic stroke other than CT or MRI. Strokes are common and the knowing the difference is crutial for treatment, but it still requires imaging to know. No easier and faster way is currently available.

And doctors don't know how to solve many of the problems caused by strokes and often nor exactly what has caused the stroke. and yet, strokes are not a mistery nor new.

You want doctors to know how what to with MLC when many times they don't know what to do, or can't do much, with something so common as a stroke?

As for 911. Our equivalent would be very pleased to be called to attend to a MLCer and burden National Health Service precious resources, nurses and doctors with said person. Not.

[Anjae]

I disagree about mental health not being affected by breakthrough. I actually feel that the brain is really on the verge of being much better understood. Just a few weeks ago it was announced there is a whole new body system identified thanks to new scanning technology.

Velika, I think you are either confusing things, or not reading. I agre the brain is being much better understood. New future findings, when on clinical practice (there is a big difference and distance between science breakthroughs/knowledge and clinical practice) may, and most likely will, change things for the better.

But, right now, none of those findings is changing a thing as far as mental illness, or even Alzeimer's is concerned.

Maybe you don't remember. I have said, a while ago, that I think psychiatry will disapperear. At best, it will be integrated in neurology.

Psychiatry is outdated and not catching up - I have said this many times. But, again, there is a difference between reseach, findings, science and medicine - something being included as standard practice in clinical practice.

Is there, currently, a cure for Bipolar, Borderline, Depression (aside from the cases I mentioned on a previous post), Schizophrenia, Ftd, Alzeimer's, etc? No, there isn't. Tomorrow they may be. Today there isn't.

Please stop telling people don’t try this it doesn’t work. Let them try a different approach and benefit from others’ ideas, research, and insights.

Since people on HS (and in real life) have tried doctors and it didn't work, I have no idea what other different approach should they go for. Therapy also doesn't work. So, exactly what should they do? So far, no known thing works in MLCer.

I actually think MLC is solvable. I don't think it has to do with child issues. But MLCers leave and there is little than can be done. And even before they leave, if they don't want to go see a doctor, we can't drag them to a doctor. Since MLCers that saw a doctor didn't got their MLC solved, it is fair to say that doctors don't know how to deal with MLC/how to solve it.

I have also not seen that there is a darn thing the LBSer can do to change the course of this.

Nor have I.

Living to find some way to "help" the MLCer is not effective for them, nor does it help the LBSer get on with their lives.

This.

The neurology thing is great for neuroscience geeks like myself, who has been years down BD and has no children. And who has taken a few neuroscience/neurobiology/genetics courses. But none of those courses provides a way of solving MLC.

You know Velika, there isn't even a way of telling if someone is having an ischemic or an hemorrhagic stroke other than CT or MRI. Strokes are common and the knowing the difference is crutial for treatment, but it still requires imaging to know. No easier and faster way is currently available.

And doctors don't know how to solve many of the problems caused by strokes and often nor exactly what has caused the stroke. and yet, strokes are not a mistery nor new.

You want doctors to know how what to with MLC when many times they don't know what to do, or can't do much, with something so common as a stroke?

As for 911. Our equivalent would be very pleased to be called to attend to a MLCer and burden National Health Service precious resources, nurses and doctors with said person. Not.

[Velika]

Anjae and XYZ, I cannot imagine from a legal liability standpoint that this site would want a moderator and frequent poster to discourage people from seeking a medical opinion if their spouse showed symptoms of mental illness, psychosis, or other ailment. This is especially important in cases where the spouse may have small children, be taking action like purchasing guns, or could harm the welfare of others.

It is one thing to support someone in their own decisions and to offer insights into what might work in the past, or offer support and advice if this is not helping. But it is another to say or suggest, don't even try. And worse to say, there is something wrong with trying!

Many people write here that MLC mimics the symptoms of other illness. What this means is that someone Googling these symptoms might stumble upon this site. The logical, most safe first line of advice is: for radical personality or behavior changes, alert a doctor.

Is this going to stop the symptoms? Result in a diagnosis? Prevent increase in symptoms? No one here can predict with accuracy.

I recently had a Facebook acquaintance suddenly post that she hated her husband and wanted a divorce. Did her family and friends tell the husband to validate her feelings and that she was in a tunnel that she would eventually emerge from in 10 years time? No, in real time they organized to call an ambulance. They were both lucky.

If you are not interested in reading about the brain or neuroscience and discussing what might be going on in the brain/body of someone who acts this way, there are hundreds of other threads. Some people become interested in this topic and stay interested even when they know that it will not solve anything. Some people are interested in things from a purely academic, entertainment, or even curiosity standpoint. Let them have a discussion!

[xyzcf]

For the record I have never told someone that they should not seek medical advice concerning their spouse. You have interpreted what I am saying in a way that just isn't true. If i heard of some kind of medical issue, or violence towards the family issue, I have and will always tell people to get professional help.

I would be having the same discussion on this thread, that is sharing my knowledge and experience about this subject which can certainly be in disagreement with another person's views...and that is fine. It allows other posters to look at several points of views and decide for themselves what they need to do.

I would be having a similar discussion for example if you or anyone else posted that immunizations are dangerous, or that allowing people to buy automatic rifles is ok or that abortion is perfectly fine because I am very much pro immunizations, anti gun pro life.

These thoughts and writings of mine, like yours, come from a place of deep concern and caring and love for the LBSer, the MLCer, the OW or OM and our children and family members.

Because I disagree with you and feel that your focus is not "helpful" does not mean that somehow I am liable for expressing my knowledge base and understanding of MLC.

I stand with what I have learned about this. I want people to understand what MLC is and then to go about living their lives the best possible way they can. Accepting that this may or may not be a temporary condition but expressing my reality of what I know about MLC.

[Velika]

Yes, of course! I can see this in your posts. It's very important to encourage LBS to take good care of themselves, emotionally, spiritually, physically, financially. It is absolutely correct to want to guide an LBS to a place where they can focus on themselves.

I think what may be going on is that for some people, knowing this is a medical issue right off the bat can help them recover as an LBS more quickly. Some people here are saying, yes, it is a medical issue most likely — but it is not your job to get your former spouse help. I really can see this is where many people are coming from. They want to spare the LBS from more trauma and heartache in a situation that might be out of their control.

I think others of us are saying, this is a medical issue and want to discuss and understand more about it, because we also want to help the LBS. Being able to say, this is the cluster or symptoms and here is what it might be, may help someone quickly understand that this isn't their fault, not a marriage problem, and help them to take protective steps quickly.

My point is that we should not discourage someone from talking to a doctor or trying to seek medical help for our spouse.

I think many people arrive at this site after responding to the situation emotionally as infidelity, then starting to notice other strange things, like change to personality and habits. It is my feeling that the faster a LBS can be made to understand that this is not a relationship issue the faster they will recover and maintain good boundaries. To do so requires understanding that the behavior of the MLCer is not personal. Oftentimes, seeing it is a pattern can also help.

This is so incredibly complex to navigate. I think XYZ you are someone who has managed to keep a very deep level of empathy toward your former H and really hold in a loving space that he is unwell. This is incredibly admirable and I think you have a spiritual background that helps you with this. Other people may come from a more scientific background, and so really being able to talk about the medical aspects is helpful in the same way. For some, either approach may include a level of advocacy.

I think it's important to accept that people use these boards in different way. Some people like bv just want to have a more scientific discussion. They don't want to write about their life or their activities. Other people may emphasize things they are doing to heal, like traveling or painting or exercising. This doesn't mean, however, that the people like bv are not doing those things; it's just not what their focus is when they come to this site.

[bvFTD]

LBS:

We know that some spouses refuse to seek help, but if they start screaming at you, throw furniture around, push you or hit you (all behaviors I have read here) or you feel their verbal abuse is about to escalate, go into a room whose door you can lock or go outside and call 911.

Whatever disorder they have, it seems they start changing 1 to 2 years before BD with frenzied exercising or gambling and drinking and distancing themselves from the family, followed by cutting and critical remarks to the LBS, overspending and adultery, culminating in abrupt and unforeseen abandonment, which can be dangerous to the LBS because it can be accompanied by physical assault or explosive fits of spewing rage.

I feel as if some of their abnormal, shocking and scary behavior almost gets normalized on this site by kind of cutely calling it "monstering" - sounds almost endearing in a way like a grownup dressing in a Frankenstein Halloween costume. A more accurate term is abuse or rage attacks and they are serious and can be a matter of life and death. They are also called catastrophic reactions by people who work in the medical field.

Do not hesitate to call 911.

[Lioness]

One thing I don’t understand in all this discussion is this: how helpful is a diagnosis (which, having dealt with mental health in the past i know for sure isn’t at all a straight forward process - like not at all) for a deeply shocked LBS? What exactly is she supposed to do with that? Spend years tied up in court over that (you two clearly have never actually dealt with the trauma of court proceedings! I was investigated by child service after H accused me of not being competent since allegedly because I had had PTSD)! Just how helpful do you think knowing your spouse is genetically impaired and will die of a neurological disease in 10 years is it to an LBS struggling to cope with the betrayal? I feel like while Velika and BV want to provide a discussion, this is a discussion that doesn’t actually evolve. It doesn’t provide for practical help except to say call 911 (the least effective thing to do in a mental illness situation) or “force your spouse to go to a university hospital (i don’t know how one gets there honestly)! So my question is, and I really hope to hear practical answers beyond the  “scientific discussion of the MLC: Why insist on putting the LBS in an even weaker position than she is in from the moment she realizes (more like hit by) MLC? Why want to make her the caretaker during these circumstances? I ask this because I volunteered for a women’s shelter for a long time, and the first and best advice we always give to women who are in abusive relationships (physical or otherwise) is to get out as soon as humanly possible and put their kids in safety! Then go to seek therapy so that they can figure themselves out away from the source of their pain! You guys are saying instead, no, spend time figuring out the person who hurts you!  So I honestly don’t see the logic of your arguments at all! . With all due respect, you are simply placing the onus of figuring out (and fixing) the MLC under the guise of wanting to understand etc...it is not mentally safe for a woman (most Lbs are women) to spend so much time and energy and money if she has any in doctor’s appointments (that is if she is ever able to convince her husband - who now hates her guts - to seek help)! The feminist in me is shocked by all of the suggestions you insist on making to people who are already under a great deal of stress! Even if MLC was a real, neurological or otherwise disease, it is and should not be the LBS responsibility to advocate for change! 

[Ready2Transform]

Lioness has some good points here! My attorney actually told me to keep the bipolar thing on ice in the courtroom, lest the judge "feel sorry" for the poor mentally ill xH and cut him more slack.

"Monstering" is a term too that's used in the bipolar communities to represent the same thing we do here. I've seen it criticized as being too harsh too, but really, I think we all get what it means. Sometimes monster isn't a full blown rage attack. Sometimes it's just a mean bully.

[bvFTD]

This thread is for people who are trying to understand the drastic and disturbing behavioral change in our spouses in a medical context. It is okay if you just have to devote all of your energy to surviving the trauma and getting away, which is why we need help from others - family courts, schools, employers, medical professionals and society. We are in shock and can barely get out of bed or choke down some orange slices for sustenance, let alone embark on medical detective work, figure out what kind of doctor to see or juggle appointments for them, all while making sure they don't clean out our life savings and comforting our reeling children.

But I had to know why the loving, kind, generous, loyal, happy and funny man I was with for 30 years suddenly turned into an angry, thieving, selfish, immoral adulterer and Abandoner who hated me.

I think a diagnosis can make a great deal of difference. If my husband were to report me to Child Services and accuse me of being a bad mother, his neurologist will be able to explain to social workers that my H's brain is broken and he is CONFABULATING!

A diagnosis can prevent unstable people from buying firearms or even result in automatic revocation of his driver's license in some states. A diagnosis may help someone be treated more leniently should he commit a crime. A diagnosis may also convince his employer that he should say, not be operating on patients. A diagnosis will help determine who should have child custody.

A diagnosis let's us FORGIVE. My son no longer refers to my husband as "The Bastard." He can now love my husband again, but in a different way.

I long for the day that as soon as someone hears "I need space" preceded by all the signs we are so familiar with, we can make a phone call and the MLC Emergeny Response Team arrives a few minutes later because we are experiencing an emergency!

[bvFTD]

Ready:

My attorney (in psychology for 20 years before getting her JD) felt a little differently. Being armed with the facts, aware of his behaviors and anticipating the likely decline helped her fashion the divorce agreement in order to protect me and the children and my H.

[bvFTD]

Velika:

You mentioned an acquaintance was ranting in posts that she hated her husband and wanted to divorce him, so her alarmed family called an ambulance for her. What was wrong with her?

[Anjae]

... how helpful is a diagnosis (which, having dealt with mental health in the past i know for sure isn’t at all a straight forward process - like not at all) for a deeply shocked LBS?

It isn't.

Just how helpful do you think knowing your spouse is genetically impaired and will die of a neurological disease in 10 years is it to an LBS struggling to cope with the betrayal?

Not much, if at all.

My attorney actually told me to keep the bipolar thing on ice in the courtroom, lest the judge "feel sorry" for the poor mentally ill xH and cut him more slack.

Like I said in a previous post, if I wanted to play the mental health card and divorce Mr J such grounds, I would had to support Mr J for life. That is our law.

These threads didn't use to be about what a LBS should do, they were for debating the matters on the title: Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research (note no MLC on the title) in broad, or more specific, interesting ways. And the threads certainly didn't use to be confined to MLC, MLC was often a side note, if at all.

A few years ago, some HS members got interested and/or took some neuroscienc, genetics, etc. courses, and these threads were for us to debate those issues.

This thread is for people who are trying to understand the drastic and disturbing behavioral change in our spouses in a medical context.

Not really. As I said above, these threads didn't used to be for that. The matters approached, often had nothing to do with changes in a spouse. They had to do with complex Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research issues. Not with MLC/changes in spouse.

Velika and bvFTD turned them into something they were never meant to be.

[FamilyIsMyGoal]

I have a question that some of you may be able to answer to some extent.

Is there something that happens in the brain, whether MLC or not, that allows someone to be extremely hostile, rude, etc, without them realizing it? 

My H has had some conflicts with others and myself where he is unbelievably off the charts with hostility, anger and rudeness.  When called on it, he seems completely baffled that anyone would consider his behavior inappropriate.  He has always been like this to a much lesser extent, but now seems to be like this all the time!  Unless he is stoned on pot, that seems to be the only thing that calms him down.  I would love to hear opinions.  Thanks in advance

[Thunder]

Family,

When my H was going through his crisis there was a period of time where he got very hostile at work.

Now mind you he is very easy going, never would fight with anyone in the work place and was regarded as one of their best workers.

He just flipped and was irritated with just about everything and began going to the supervisor with complaints and also became argumentative with a few co-workers.  He also started having road rage, which he never did before.  He was a very aggressive driver for some time.  If looks could kill every driver on the road would have been dead.

I know he didn't see it but man I sure did.  It was shocking.
He even started yelling at our dogs!

I don't remember now how long he was like that but he eventually got back to normal.  Maybe it's the anger inside them at the time.
IDK

[FamilyIsMyGoal]

Thanks Thunder.  This journey is really testing my sanity.

[bvFTD]

Dear FamilyIsMyGoal:

Yes, there are instances they cannot recall, whether the episodes were euphoric or violent or aggressive, they may not be able to reconstruct them because there was a serious glitch, an out-of-body experience where they were not themselves.

You must understand that the frontal lobe of the brain has been compromised.

Initial stage creates chaos, heartbreak, maybe even bankruptcy from their incessant compulsion to spend. Once the disease infiltrates more parts of the brain, apathy sets in.

But then, so much damage has been done. 

[FamilyIsMyGoal]

Thanks bvftd. He has always had this to some extent but now it’s off the charts. Btw there has always been a family joke about how his uncle dropped him on his head when he was a baby. Now I’m seriously beginning to think about it.

The constant anger is really wearing on me. I keep trying to make sense of it. Intellectually I know that’s futile but it really hurts my feelings.  I’m still hoping he’s going to come out the other side and love me again. But it sure doesn’t feel that way.

[Thunder]

FTD,

How do you know the frontal lobe has been compromised?  I never read that about MLC.

In my H's case I'm sure his hormones were out of whack.  He even had hot flashes.

[Velika]

Dear FamilyIsMyGoal:

Yes, there are instances they cannot recall, whether the episodes were euphoric or violent or aggressive, they may not be able to reconstruct them because there was a serious glitch, an out-of-body experience where they were not themselves.

This can happen with bipolar as well.

[xyzcf]

FamilyIsMyGoal:

I have a question that some of you may be able to answer to some extent.

Is there something that happens in the brain, whether MLC or not, that allows someone to be extremely hostile, rude, etc, without them realizing it? 

This is very, very common for the individual who is having a Mid Life Crisis. I sometimes think of this as how I used to feel when I had PMS...I did not act at all the way I normally would.

Both my daughter and I have seen my husband act this way, in restaurants towards wait staff. He never ever did that before. This is part of his MLC.

As well, one of his work colleagues also saw him act this way towards the CEO of his company. He later told me he had never ever seen my husband act like that.

Yet, my husband is able to remain successful in a very high level executive position....a kind of DR. Jekle and Mr Hyde.

This is text book MLC and when their crisis is through, many have no recollection of some of the things they have said or how they acted. The "fog" we speak of is very very dense.

I again will refer to some of the anger that teenagers express...the volatility and abruptness, especially towards their parents and people of authority but not towards their peers. This developmental stage of life, like the terrible two's also passes and the anger and rage goes away, as it does in MLC. 

My husband recently told me that he feels like a teenager, he suggested 14 years old and I responded by saying I think he's even younger than that.

This is all classic MLC and is seen in many of the other poster's threads on Heros Spouse.

[Velika]

Two good ones:

Harder Evidence Builds That Viruses Play a Role in Alzheimer's
Scientific American
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/harder-evidence-builds-that-viruses-play-a-role-in-alzheimers/
"The long-standing amyloid hypothesis posits that symptoms are triggered by the buildup of amyloid beta brain plaques, but trials of drugs that attempt to clear these plaques have so far flopped. Skeptical researchers have hunted for other explanations, and some have zeroed in on microbes. In March 2016 in the Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease, 33 international scientists penned an editorial urging the research community to seriously consider the idea that pathogens could be involved."

Analysis of a Million-Plus Genomes Points to Blurring Lines Among Brain Disorders
Scientific American
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/analysis-of-a-million-plus-genomes-points-to-blurring-lines-among-brain-disorders/
"According to the findings, published June 22 in Science, conditions such as schizophrenia, major depressive disorder (MDD) and bipolar disorder share a suite of overlapping genetic variants rather than having distinct genetic signatures."

[Anjae]

I come across that Alzheimer's news yesterday on The Guardian and Público (a Portuguese newspaper) - links below. Become so upset I wasn't even able to post about it.


Why did I become so upset? Because my paternal grandmother has Alzheimer's and she is getting worst and worst. I was like,"wait, a virus may be the cause (or a sympthom, they aren't sure whcih is it). Two strands of herpes virus? Really?"

A virus is, I think easier to deal with/find a solution than for the other views on Alzheimer's. But the, the article makes it clear "The Alzheimer’s community remains cautious about the findings. “Possible roles for microbes and viruses in Alzheimer's disease have been suggested and studied for decades, but previous research has not explained how they may be connected. This is the first study to provide evidence based on multiple, large data sets that lends support to this idea,” says Keith Fargo, director of scientific programs and outreach at the Alzheimer’s Association. But “more research is needed to discover exactly what roles, if any, they play. The new findings do not prove that the viruses cause the onset or contribute to the progression of Alzheimer's disease.”

Sadly it seems that more researche is necessary to see ifthe virus paly a role, and if so, which. Meanong, effective treatement for Alzheimer's will not come in tiem for my grandmother and many suffering from it right now. But they may be close. Or may be more willing to look intp other possibilities and come up with something that truly works and stops, or even reverses, this horrible disease.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/21/alzheimers-link-to-herpes-virus-in-brain-say-scientists

https://www.publico.pt/2018/06/21/ciencia/noticia/encontrada-uma-ligacao-entre-alzheimer-e-a-presenca-de-virus-no-cerebro-1835431


The Analysis of a Million-Plus Genomes Points to Blurring Lines Among Brain Disorders is interesting, but some things seem to be a little at odds with the Alzheimer's article.

For example this: "Is lower academic achievement in early life tied to the same gene changes as an increased risk for Alzheimer’s in older age? That is one of dozens of possible deductions to be drawn from the largest genomic study of brain conditions ever conducted, research that obscures what often have been considered clear diagnostic borders."

It may be some people with lower academic achievement in early life may have Alzheimer's , but that does not apply to many with the illness. And, as if the other article suggests, it may be a virus that most of us carry, and, for some reason gets activated at a point, lower academic achievement in early life may have nothing to do with it.

It is, or used to me, thought that an active mental life tillolder age may be a good way of preventing Alzheimer's. I alwways found that one a little strange. Several Alzheimer's patients kept a very active mental life until the disease showed its ugly head.


“One of the big messages is that psychiatric disorders turned out to be very connected on the genetic level,” - Not much of a surprise here. The tendency is for Psychiatric disorders to dissapear and be included in Neurology (I have talked about in the past).

Psychiatry, and the way Psychiatric disordersa are approached is outdated.  Psychiatric don't exist in a vacuum and are, somehow, connected to biology/nuerobiology/genes. We just don't know enough. Yet.

"But because the study was a “hypothesis-free approach,” as Anttila describes it, showing only statistical associations among genes, not proof of a common genetic basis, the findings are only a starting point for digging deeper “to better understand how these disorders arise,” he says. " I short,they still don't know how things really work, which means they still don't know how really to solve them.

“I was personally surprised by the lack of such correlations between neurological disorders and psychiatric ones,” he says, noting that he would have expected depression, for example, to show overlap with some neurological diseases." I will argue that depression (major clinical depression, post-partum or thyroid one is a different matter) is a neurologial disorder. To be fair, if it was up to me  the concept of psychatric disorder would disappear.

"Standing out from this crowd at the end of the shared-variant spectrum was schizophrenia, which overlapped with all of the psychiatric disorders except anxiety. PTSD, meanwhile, showed no significant association with any of them." No surprise there. PTSD, I would say is more connected to the nervous system (or parts of it).

Bottom line, they may know overlaps, etc., but remain clueless about exactly what causes the illneses, why, and how to cure them. Hope science finds cures/solutions soon.

[Velika]

A neuroscientist who lost her mind says it can happen to anyone
https://qz.com/1423416/a-neuroscientist-who-lost-her-mind-explains-the-brain

I'm quoting a few passages here, but urge you to read this important article. Not only does it describe the book, the author writes about her own brush with brain disfunction, responses she received, and touches on fugue states.

Lipska believes the world can get better at treating mental illness. But as she explains in her book The Neuroscientist Who Lost Her Mind: My Tale of Madness and Recovery, published in April 2018, part of the solution lies in ceasing to distinguish between mental and physical problems.

The neuroscientist wants the world to understand that mental illness is an organ malfunction, quite common and life threatening. In her book, she argues that we still judge brain malfunctions as if they are character deficits, reflections on a person’s value rather than the result of physical processes gone awry.

She can’t say precisely what caused her behavioral changes, whether it was cancer or medications or stress of illness or all three combined. But she can point to the region in the brain that was affected. “In my case, there was a lot of pressure on the frontal cortex and this regulates our behavior,” the neuroscientist says. When her frontal cortex was malfunctioning, she could no longer control herself—all the rules about where and when to do certain things, and how to communicate, became irrelevant to her. They were inaccessible, for all practical purposes nonexistent.

[Ready2Transform]

I'm glad to see fugue states brought up again, Velika. That's something that's only been touched on lightly here over the years, but I think there are some definite cases here that fit the bill. Looking forward to checking this out.

[kikki]

What an excellent article Velika.

Nine hundred years later, Western medicine is still struggling with this concept. Lipska is impatient with the slow progress, though she deeply believes that at some point, we will be able to see that any mental manifestation can be traced to a change in the brain. She concludes, “We are the brain. There’s nothing besides it. If something is wrong, it’s physical.”

As our brain/neurotransmitter/biochemistry threads will attest to over the years, from day one, I always knew that something had gone very wrong physically in my MLCers' head, that he would be behaving so very strangely.  To me it was a no-brainer (pardon the pun).
I too am impatient with this slow progress.

[Anjae]

Of course it can happen to anyone. Anyone can become a mental illness sufferer and anyone can have a MLC. Mental illness is more than an organ (the bain) malfunction, since what causes the brain malfunction may come from other parts of the body. And when it is a brain malfunction it tends to affect other parts of the body. But I get the idea.

It is not a novelty that stress, hormones, illness, life style combined or on their own can bring changes in personality. We have been talking about it for years.

As for the affected parts of the brain, since most of us are not neuroscientists and the same is true of our MLCer, we really don't know which ones are affected or affected the most. The pre-frontal and/or frontal cortex probably are, but others parts may be as well.

What we hardly ever discuss here is how the person goes back to normal. What makes it happen? Why/how does it happens? We don't really know.

[kikki]

Mental illness is more than an organ (the bain) malfunction, since what causes the brain malfunction may come from other parts of the body. And when it is a brain malfunction it tends to affect other parts of the body

Yes of course.  Organs are part of a whole body system. 
I think what the writer was pointing out, was that by the time it affects the brain, you are then dealing with behaviours that are not character flaws. 

Something that we have discussed at length on these threads.  Dr Amen always talked about looking at the physical brain first when working out why people behaved badly.

What we hardly ever discuss here is how the person goes back to normal. What makes it happen? Why/how does it happens? We don't really know.

We don't but we have surmised that if it is an inflammatory process that has caused the disorder, there is an opportunity for the inflammation to resolve (for example). A cyst or tumour - if removed may have the person recovering.
Not all will be caused by inflammation.  We have discussed many potentials in the past, and there are likely a plethora of different reasons that give rise to the disordered behaviours and thinking.

And we have also discussed the research that shows the longer these disorders remain untreated, the higher the incidence of the person developing dementia (one of many types, not just the best known - Alzheimers).

[Anjae]

I think what the writer was pointing out, was that by the time it affects the brain, you are then dealing with behaviours that are not character flaws. 

True. But this is also valid for hormonal problems (thyroid or peri-menopause for example), non-brain cancer, and several other non-brain illnesses and even for minerals and vitamins deficiency.

People behave badly for many reasons. Brain, body, brain & body, situations that deliberatly alter those (drink, drungs, lack of spleep), ambient, pack mentality, etc.

If it is an inflammatory process. Which we don't know if it is. Depression does not tend to be considered an inflammatory process. Then again, there are many ideas of what depression is, usually unbalanced brain chemicals, that idea is becoming old and researchers are looking for new things.

Depression has, of course, several causes. Hormones, like in post-part depression or thyroid. And the truth is we still don't know enough and still don't manage to cure it, aside from its mildests forms or the ones connected to hormones.

Mental illnesses other than depression still have no cure. And, despite years of HS, we aren't any close to really know what is going on, on our MLCer end up in crisis - what is being affected in their brains and bodies and how it tend stops affecting brain and body.

I would say that a change of lifestyle can do wonders. With Mr J, leaving clubbing and djing life aside would help. Not sort it all out, but her. Stop drinking would also help.

The problem is that MLC ends up leaving many, if not most, MLCer with a wide range of problems. The longer the crisis goes on, the more problems the MLCer is left with.

If these illnesses left untreated may, or may not lead to a higher incidence of  Alzheimer's is a though some scientists and doctors have, but it is not a certainty. If Alzheimers is a protein, or protein related, or a virus, as it is now thought, those illnesses may, or may not, play a part.

We don't know if MLCer have a higher risk of having Alzheimer's than other people because there are no studied about it and on HB we still haven't reach a point where we can start to say it is so.

Much we now know about the brain, it still remains a big mistery. We know more and more, are able to do things that weren't possible, but we still have a long way to go.

And we still haven't found a way to put an end to MLC.

I feel we have been through all these issues for years on end and are still pretty much where we were at first, we don't have a clue how MLC really works on a brain level, we don't know how to cure/end it and we don't know how the person goes back to normal. Just that many MLCers go back to normal.

Strange it may sound, I have become a little tired of neuroscience and went back to my usual world or arts & culture. I know a little more than the basics of neurosciene/neurobiolgy, but I am not a scientists and there really isn't much I can do with that knowledge.

What I know is enough to understand what happens if a person has a stoke (a real life hepful thing), and so, much it doesn't really have much use when it comes to MLC. 

I am enjoying a lot reading fiction, poetry, history/history of art/about art in several languages, watching movies and TV series, going to art shows, etc. again.

I am also a little more than bored with MLC. It never changes, they is no progress, no new discoveries of ways of solving the matter.

[kikki]

Nodding my head at all of it Anjae. Science is far from an exact science. 
Scientists have theories and hope to 'prove' their theories correct. Then someone else comes along only to prove that their (sometimes) opposing theory is correct too. 

The brain really is like the last frontier, so very very little is known despite recent advances.

And yes, we have been involved in this for many years with no progress. 

It's great that you are returning to your loves of 'reading fiction, poetry, history/history of art/about art in several languages, watching movies and TV series, going to art shows, etc. again'. 

It's important that we all return to our happy places.

As the neuroscientist stated, she is 'impatient with the slow progress'.  So are we. 

[Anjae]

As the neuroscientist stated, she is 'impatient with the slow progress'.  So are we.

Indeed.

[Velika]

Has anyone investigated this route?

Atypical behavioral and psychiatric symptoms: Neurosyphilis should always be considered
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636106/

"Many of those patients had characteristics of more than one syndrome, including cognitive impairment, personality disorders, delirium, hostility, dysarthria, confusion, disruption of their sleep–wake cycle, fecal and urinary incontinence, dysphoria, paranoia, hallucinations, expansive mood, and mania. These results indicate that NS mimics almost all psychiatric disorders."

Neurosyphilis arises from untreated syphilis.

[Anjae]

Don't think so.  But I can assure that Mr J didn't not had syphilis. Therefore, that cannot be the cause of his MLC.

If our MLCers had syphilis we would know it. It shows in other places, not just on the brain. It also shows on blood tests.

And it does not go back to normal after MLC.

P.S.: V, at this point, I think that what we need is to find a way of solving the problem, not to explore more avenues. I am all for new avenues, but we are as unable of solving MLC as we were decades ago.

[Velika]

Anjae, I think you should change this to your signature:

And it does not go back to normal after MLC.

P.S.: V, at this point, I think that what we need is to find a way of solving the problem, not to explore more avenues. I am all for new avenues, but we are as unable of solving MLC as we were decades ago.

Yes, of course, we cannot resolve MLC on a discussion board with no funding, no test subject, no lab, no mandate.

Do most really go back to normal? I think if this means the living body of your former spouse one day wants to return home because he decides it's in his best interest — yes, maybe. What I read here shows that even when it's a "successful" ending there is some lingering impairment.

[Nas]

Do most really go back to normal? I think if this means the living body of your former spouse one day wants to return home because he decides it's in his best interest — yes, maybe. What I read here shows that even when it's a "successful" ending there is some lingering impairment.

I don't think truer words have ever been said.   

[Anjae]

V, yes, both HS and real life show most go back to normal. What lingering impairment.? I don'thave one. My counsin who had MLC does not have one. Real life people I know who had MLC don't have one.

What you see here is people with spouses still in MLC, not the spouses after MLC. RCR's husband does not have any  lingering impairment. Nor does Stayed husband's. Nor does any of the spouses of those long reconciled.

Those in reconnection? Of course there is still lingering impairment. Their spouse is still in MLC.

We have no fouding, but shoot left, right and center and every time it is a different thing that cause it does not work.

We have more subject tests than many studies. You also have all the LBS who have had a MLC of their own. Something several LBS conveniently tend to leave out. I think we know a tiny bit more about MLC than LBS who did not had a MLC.

And syphilis can be ruled out. Syphilis has very visible physical effects. Poor LBS whose spouses returned if they had syphilis. They don't, otherwise said LBS would know.

We can't get anywhere is one day we think MLC will happen regardless what we do or don't do because it comes from childhood issues and the next thing it is syphilis. Syphilis does not come from childhood issues.

Do you think your MLCer has syphilis? If you do, syphilis will not go away unless it is treated. With penicillin or an equivalent antibiotic for those allergic to penicillin.

[Ready2Transform]

It depends on what you define impairment to be. Just like a bipolar person in mania, when they are not manic, they are still bipolar. That won't go away. I personally, having been one of those LBSs who had a crisis of sorts, am not the same as I was before, nor the same as I was in crisis. Crisis was an extreme change. But I take a lot of hormone-balancing supplements now. When I do not take them, I can easily spiral into a mess. It would take very little self-neglect, honestly, to tip me back in. I know that, so I have to stay on top of it. I have to stave off depression by being conscious and mindful of my thoughts and nutrition. These are all things I now know have been lifelong problems that had escalated to a huge extent in crisis. And the consciousness I have now to deal with them IS reflective of the maturation, the mirror work, the rock bottom bounce. But there are still things I'm sure I will deal with forever, and though a lot of my interests are the same as when I was younger, my skin and health aren't as ragged as they were in crisis, I have balance and peace - but I'm not the same. I can in some ways say I "came back" to myself, but in other ways, it was just "moving forward" out of the depression, not really a return. I'm sorry if that sounds contradictory, but if we're having a real discussion about this, I think we need to look at the gray areas and not just the black and white dismissive ones.

Me, kikki, Anjae, and several others spent a lot of time researching and sharing things here, and I think it was a huge part of our process. There's really nothing wrong with exploring these concepts. Even the ones we've already been over, and especially the new things! Are we likely to hit the nail on the head as to what caused this for everyone? Of course not. But this is part of our fellowship, and how we're building relationships with each other, if nothing else, based on the areas that most intrigue us about this fascinating and awful (lol) time in our lives.

[Anjae]

Of course we will not be the same after MLC, mild or a real bad one. Like we are not the same after cancer.

But I don't have any of my crisis things nor does my counsin. I need vitamins and minerals, but because of peri-menopause and the exhaustion of looking after grandmother and dealing with Mr J's MLC. My cousin takes nothing.

Grandmother's death didn't tip me back into it. Doubt anything would take back into that manic, crazy crisis self.

There is nothing wrong in exploring things, but neurosyphilis is too far fetched. Only people who have untreated syphilis have neurosyphilis. Syphilis has very visible, distictive signs (google syphilis images - warning, they're quite shocking).

Syphilis is a STD. The first stage lasts a few weeks and in that stage there may be no visible signs, from there on there are. And they are very obvious. Our MLCers could not have

Since syphilis is an STD and MLC starts befoe the affair, even if we could think OW/OM passed syphilis to our MLCer, syphilis would not be the cause of MLC. And no one can have syphilis for years on end without visible physical signs. Also, Wallowers don't tend to have OW/OM and even some High Energy MLCers only have a fantasy OW/OM. We can exclude syphilis as the cause of MLC.

Our many explored avenues didn't lead us anywhere because we are as far from knowing what really causes MLC and from knowing how to prevent it, stop it or mitigate it as we were when we start debating this issues.

We are also not able to explain how people go back to normal. How does Replay goes away. Rock bottom, but what is rock bottom? Over depression, we are told. So, it would mean that once the over depression is over people start coming back to normal.

Lets make things easy and use normal for non-MLC state. What brings people back to that normal state?

We have lots of questions, ideas, explored avenues and avenues to explore, but no real answers.

[Velika]

Another interesting article about inflammation and mental illlness:

Yes, You Can Catch Insanity
A controversial disease revives the debate about the immune system and mental illness.
http://m.nautil.us/issue/62/systems/yes-you-can-catch-insanity-rp

[Anjae]

Yes, we can catch insanity. But we end up in the same place with MLC, it goes away.

[xyzcf]

I started a job a couple of weeks ago at an Adult Day Care facility. I have interacted 3 times with an individual who is diagnosed with Frontotemporal dementia (FTD).

This individual is quite interesting (actually that is an understatement) but in no way does this person resemble or act like someone who is in a MLC.

My own observation and I don't want to resurrect the debate about this topic but I was fascinated today after hearing so much about this on HS to actually have an interaction with someone who has this clinical diagnosis.

[Anjae]

Which differences do you observe? Other than the fact the person with  Frontotemporal dementia (FTD) being in a Adult Day Care facility and MLCers aren't?

[xyzcf]

The first time I met this client, they told me that they were one of the volunteers. They seemed very intelligent and told me about their career. They referred to the other participants in a way that gave me no reason to believe that they were "one of them".

My observations (now that I know this person is not a volunteer) and it is minimal as I only work 2 hours a week ( a very interesting work project for me) is that there is something more "pathological"...something actually physically attacking the brain. When I see my own MLCer and read stories of others, many of them function really well in their careers and the "cracks" are much harder to see unless you know them really well.

This was a very different situation, one where I could believe that there was a disintegration of the brain. I would think also, as we have said that this is a progressive disease where as with MLCer they do get through their crisis and return to something more like who they once were.

It is going to be quite a learning experience for me and I am absolutely thrilled to be back working as a nurse again....a big part of who I was that ended in 2007 , not of my doing so it is neat.

If I observe anything else, I'll try and explain it as best I can for it is very different from reading about a clinical diagnosis and actually interacting with someone.

[Anjae]

Oh, the job is as a nurse. Congratulations.

Thank you. Please keep sharing what you observe. It is very interesting.

Many MLCers do functions very well in their jobs/carrers and there does not seem to be anything physicaly attacking the brain brain or brain disintegration.

When we say MLC and Alzheimer's are similar, I also notice big differences between my paternal grandmother who has Alzheimer's, Mr J and other MLCers. With paternal grandmother there is clearly something wrong that affects her mind and body in a very obvious way. She now hardly, if ever, knows who I am. She cannot move on her own, she has no independence. The illness is leaving her more and more frail.

Mr J, on the other hand, leads a totally normal life and no one other than myself sees what is wrong. Well, about an year ago, when I saw him by change, the friend I was with, who knows us both since our mid teens, was amazed at the music Mr J was djing. He wanted to know what had happned for Mr J's musical tastes to have changed so much. Maybe others that have known him since a long time ago notice things, but say nothing. No point in doing so.

[Ready2Transform]

Indeed, congrats xyzcf!! Looking forward to hearing more. I know I'm very guilty, especially early on, of attaching to articles or diagnoses that match on paper but don't present the same in reality. I can see where by definition bvFTD sounds similar, but would not match what most of us have experienced in our MLCers. But it's good to get that confirmation. I'm sure most of us don't actually want our spouses or former spouses to degenerate in that way.

[Anjae]

I know I'm very guilty, especially early on, of attaching to articles or diagnoses that match on paper but don't present the same in reality.

Interesting and something to have in mind. On paper, lots of things (illnesses) seem similar. In reality, they aren't.

I'm sure most of us don't actually want our spouses or former spouses to degenerate in that way.

I certainly don't and think everyone else is of the same opinion.

As we start to have direct contact with several illesses, be it bvFTD, Alzheimers's, borderline, etc. I think we see and understand that such reality is different from MLC.

[Nas]

Interesting. Xyz, thanks for sharing. I never entered the previous conversations about bvFTD but one of my close friend’s father lives in a facility and has FTD. It’s very, very sad but nothing like MLC.
It’s very hard on my friend. He’s still married to his wife, but as he’s in a facility with no hope of recovery, his wife has a boyfriend. In his early pre-diagnosis days, he bought a ring and a truck for another friend of his daughter. Now, you can read that and say “Yes! MLC!” On paper, it’s easy to make that parallel. In real life, it was absolutely nothing like it.

[xyzcf]

I had the chance to speak to this client's spouse, the one who has FTD. It was very enlightening for me. It validated that this is NOT MLC.

I felt very sad for the spouse.

[Velika]

I think it is not always possible to say in the early stages who has bvFTD and who doesn't. If you read about bvFTD, a large percentage present and progress atypically. There is also the possibility that this poorly understood condition is a spectrum disorder.

I'm mentioning this here because my sister researches bvFTD and has participated on panels and met with people who have it, or who have family members with it. She said following this, she felt it was highly possible that this ran in my ex's family.

Again, this is not a diagnosis — simply to say, I feel there is a real merit to acknowledging that our spouses may not all have the same thing, just something affecting the same part or parts of the brain, however permanently or temporarily.

I've mentioned before, I would make my first consideration of outcome/progression for our spouses based on their own family members. If there seems to be a family pattern, my feeling is that this is the best indicator of outcome.

[Anjae]

Thank you for the info, Xyzcf.

There is no bvFTD in Mr J's family. His paternal grandmother had Alzeimer's, but so does my paternal grandmother. And mum has vascular dementia.

There is also an history of mental illness in both sides of the family, but most of us have nothing. At least, so far.

[Velika]

Continuing our bvFTD discussion, I just came across this article and felt shocked to see it described this way. (As I have often felt my ex is now a sociopath.)

FULL DISCLAIMER FOR USUAL SUSPECTS: I am not saying everyone or even anyone on this forum has bvFTD, nor suggesting that they do not, even if you have met someone with bvFTD who does not seem like your spouse or the spouses you read about. However, some people may find this helpful/interesting, and yes — some people on this forum may have a spouse with early stage bvFTD and they should be aware what this disease is.

Sociopathic Dementia
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2010/09/22/sociopathic-dementia

FTD only accounts for a small fraction of dementias in total (estimates range from 2% to 10%), but it typically strikes people aged in their 50s or 60s, i.e. much earlier than the average for Alzheimer’s disease, the most common cause of dementia. As a result, FTD accounts for a large proportion of early-onset cases.

The symptoms are different to those of Alzheimer’s, at least in the early stages. Memory problems and confusion are not prominent. Nor are hallucinations and delusions, which are seen in 20% of Alzheimer’s, but only 2% of FTD.

Instead, patients often present with language problems – either forgetting what words mean, starting with uncommon words and progressing to easy ones (“semantic dementia”), or losing the ability to articulate speech (“nonfluent aphasia”).

But the most disturbing effects are behavioural and personality changes. These are not seen in all cases, but in some people (the “behavioural variant“), they are the main symptom. Patients may begin to act entirely out of character, including criminal acts.

Aggressive behaviour is also sometimes seen in Alzheimer’s, but it’s usually associated with confusion or hallucinations: people “don’t know what they’re doing”. In FTD, patients can commit serious crimes even though their cognitive function is pretty much intact: they do know what they’re doing.

Mario F. Mendez discusses this in a new paper, The Unique Predisposition to Criminal Violations in Frontotemporal Dementia, and asks whether people who commit crimes while suffering from FTD should be considered legally responsible for their apparantly “sociopathic” actions. He presents 4 case histories.

Patient 1: A left-handed male in his sixties began stalking and attempting to molest children for the first time in his life. He followed children home from school and tried to touch them… On another occasion, he stood at the foot of a pool and stared at the children for a prolonged time.
When he exposed himself to his neighbor’s children, he was arrested. The patient did not deny his actions, could describe them in detail, and endorsed them as wrong and harmful. Despite this, he stated that he did not feel that he was causing harm at the time of his acts.

The patient’s personality had deteriorated over the prior four years, with decreased concern for others, disinhibition, and compulsive hoarding. He had caused disturbances at work, such as intruding into others’ conversations and walking into others’ offices… constantly pilfering… hiding money…. In addition, he ate indiscriminately, even going through waste containers and eating garbage. He stopped showering and wore the same clothes every day.

Neuropsychological testing and brain scans suggested early FTD, and his mother had reportedly suffered unspecified dementia; FTD is often genetic. He was not prosecuted. This case has a lot in common with the man who became a pedophile after surgery for a brain tumour: not just the pedophilia, but other symptoms like compulsive hoarding, over-eating, etc.

Patient 4: A right-handed man in his early fifties had a hit-and-run accident and left the scene without concern. He had struck a van with passengers but kept driving. The police stopped him a short distance away from the scene, and he did not deny his action.
Leaving the scene of an accident was not characteristic of his premorbid personality, yet he had had several recent traffic violations… He could recall and describe the accident, knew that it was wrong to leave the scene, but did not feel the need to stop at the time.

Over the prior two years, the patient’s pervasive behavior had significantly changed. He had become disengaged and emotionally detached; for example, he did not react to the death of his mother…

He was no longer embarrassed over passing gas or belching in public or appearing partially clothed in front of others. The patient had a tendency toward hyperorality, especially for peanuts, and had a decline in personal hygiene. Other aspects of the history included dysarthria and a recent tendency to choke on liquids.

This patient showed clear signs of motor neuron disease, which occurs in up to 15% of FTD cases. He died, as a result of the progression of the motor neuron disease, one year later, after developing other symptoms of FTD. His death meant he could not be tried for the hit-and-run.

Mendez notes that legally, these patients would probably not qualify for the “insanity defence”. Under the British M’Naghten Rules, also adopted by the USA, the defendant is only eligible if they were labouring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or, if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong.

Finally, why does FTD cause sociopathic behaviour? Mendez says that it is because it involves degeneration of the vmPFC, linking FTD patients to the classic case of Phineas Gage whose vmPFC was destroyed by a flying iron rod. But Gage, while he did show personality changes, actually managed to function fairly well in society.

So temporal lobe degeneration probably also contributes to the FTD behavioural syndrome, especially since many of the symptoms (like compulsive eating) are seen in monkeys with temporal lobe lesions.

[xyzcf]

Interesting information about a condition called bvFTD. But it does NOT describe MLC.

bvFTD is a progressive disease that is incurable.


MLC may mimic many, many "conditions" but when the crisis is over, the changes in personality reverse.

Thinking about Acorn's husband...a great example of how a crisis can cause incredible personality changes but they are not permanent as they are in bvFTD.

[Velika]

Interesting information about a condition called bvFTD. But it does NOT describe MLC.

bvFTD is a progressive disease that is incurable.


MLC may mimic many, many "conditions" but when the crisis is over, the changes in personality reverse.

Thinking about Acorn's husband...a great example of how a crisis can cause incredible personality changes but they are not permanent as they are in bvFTD.

XYZSF your example is anecdotal. Acorn's husband is now home so none of our husbands our former spouses could possibly have early stage bvFTD?

There are many science articles that state that it can progress over 20 years, and that a high percentage progress abnormally.

I think it is so, so very damaging to the psychological health of almost all of the people who come here to state MLC is not permanent as a categorical fact, and in fact feeds the "midlife crisis" myth that causes many people on this forum to lose: their finances, their homes, and even their children. Much of the damage we experience is because other people do not believe us when we turn to them for help.

I think bvFTD offers valuable clues as to what parts of the brain "MLC" affects, and therefore should be of interest to anyone at all who has watched their spouse behave in uncharacteristic, destructive, and even sociopathic ways. As the article notes at the end, the famous case of Phineas Gage and animal studies shows the part of the brain that is affected: the ventromedial prefrontal cortex.

I too believe that many of the people on this forum are witnessing an impairment of this part of the brain, whether temporary, progressive, permanent, or cyclical.

I can't believe sometimes the all-or-nothing mentality I see endorsed here by some longtime members. It damages the integrity of the entire forum by treating it like a cult or a dogma rather than a place to discuss and share ideas.

[xyzcf]

MLC is not permanent. It is not a medical diagnosis.

I believe in MLC.

Other diagnoses may in a small number of cases end up being the case but I have not seen one in the 9 years I have been on this site.

Oh I just reread your post and this struck me

in fact feeds the "midlife crisis" myth

As I said, MLC is NOT a myth. It is very very real and I have seen many spouses return to their marriages...I like discussing MLC on a forum that was created for discussing MLC.

[Thunder]

I have to agree with xyzcf, in the 8 years I have been on this forum I have never seen a case myself.

They may exist, but they must be really extremely rare.

[Anjae]

I have also never seen a case, be it here or in real life.

MLC is not a myth. If it was, none of us would be here.

Since some of us also had a MLC, I am one of those, and have relatives and friends who had one, we know it is not a myth.

MLC is very real, causes big damages, but it is not permanent.

Can we not get into this again? It has already been determined MLC and bvFTD are not one and the same thing.

[Velika]

Your logic is circular.

No one here has a spouse that has been "diagnosed" with MLC, yet they have found themselves here with certain cluster of behavior patterns/physical symptoms, so their spouse must have MLC. And even if they have many of the symptoms of other illness, because we all know that they have MLC because they are on a MLC forum, we should not discuss what those illness might be, because we know historically some people on this forum have had their spouses recover/come home so MLC is real and self-correcting.

This makes no sense!

No one at all knows what some, all, or even of one of our spouses truly is experiencing biologically, psychologically, hormonally, or neurologically. We can only guess based on their symptom and compare them to better understood illness.   

MLC is not permanent. It is not a medical diagnosis.

I believe in MLC.

Other diagnoses may in a small number of cases end up being the case but I have not seen one in the 9 years I have been on this site.

Oh I just reread your post and this struck me

in fact feeds the "midlife crisis" myth

As I said, MLC is NOT a myth. It is very very real and I have seen many spouses return to their marriages...I like discussing MLC on a forum that was created for discussing MLC.

[Anjae]

V, please, not again. We have been there, we got nowhere.

[Velika]

V, please, not again. We have been there, we got nowhere.

Yes, exactly! That is why I posted disclaimer when I shared the article.

[Velika]

Yeast infection linked to mental illness
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160504121327.htm

[Anjae]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/04/stress-anxiety-knees-weak-palms-sweaty

Quite an interesting article on stress, the many health problem long time stress causes and research into the matter.

«“The biggest single risk factor for depression is stress,” says Bullmore. Understanding better this connection could open up new opportunities for treatments targeting immune activity and could even make it possible to intervene before depression occurs in people at risk.»

The article also has an explanation on the role of the three stress hormones: adrenaline, cortisol, noradrenaline and its chemical formula.

[Velika]

The Case for Transmissible Alzheimer's Grows
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/artful-amoeba/the-case-for-transmissible-alzheimers-grows/

[Anjae]

Interesting, but, if so, only appliable in the cases described in the article: surgical or medical procedures that reach the eye or neural tissue under certain circunstances.

Or, as the example in the article, people who as children received prion-contaminated human growth hormone that come from cadavers.

As the article says, transmissible does not mean contagious. The article is, essencially, its author making questions. No certainties, as is the case with many neurogolical, and other health/medical issues.

There are several views on what Alzheimer's is, or may be, and how it may originate. It is possible it may originate differently depending of cases. So far, there is no one certainty and no cure. Cure, or, at least, the ability to prevent it from further developing once found, are the most impostant thing.

At a point, I think people come out with too many theories and ideas on many matters, but not with any solution. A bit like with MLC.

[Velika]

Presidential Shark Eyes: 👀

Why are Donald Trump’s pupils intermittently so Dilated?

https://medium.com/@DrGJackBrown/body-language-and-medical-analysis-4221-why-are-donald-trumps-pupils-intermittently-so-large-f4d883c8126a?

You probably haven’t noticed, but President Trump’s pupils are intermittently much larger than normal (the intermittent pattern is crucial). From a medical standpoint, this is not at all subtle or to be dismissed — on the contrary, it is glaring. Sirens Blaring. Red flashing lights.

I write this article with the expertise of both an ophthalmologist as well as a body language expert.

In the image above Trump’s pupils are approximately 8.0 mm. The dark-adapted eyes of a healthy 12-year-old may have 8.0 mm pupils — but in an unmedicated 70-year-old with healthy eyes, in a well-lit room — the statistical odds of such large pupil size approaches zero.

Why is this significant? Dilated pupils, to this degree, would not occur in a 70-year-old, in a well-lit room unless there is either disease, injury or a pharmacologic cause present. Trump’s pupils are frequently but intermittently this large (sometimes they are indeed within normal size limits).

Trump’s enlarged pupils are much less likely a sign of a significant undiagnosed or undisclosed medical condition — and much more likely, a side effect of a drug/medication (one of a relatively small group of drugs).

Pupils react to both Light and Near Focusing — but also change with age

Most people know that exposure to light causes the pupils to constrict. However, you may not know that focusing on an object close up (e.g., when reading) will also cause pupils to constrict. These physiologic findings are normal for all healthy eyes. We cannot medically test for these stimuli (response to a bright light or response to focusing at near) on Donald Trump by evaluating available video or photos — however, at least with response to light, we can make some reasonable estimations.

You also may not realize that, under equal lighting conditions, pupils will become smaller with age. Thus an infant has much larger pupils than a 70-year-old. This change, generally speaking, isn’t very noticeable (for most casual observers) until a person reaches their 30s or 40s — and even then it’s not dramatic. But certainly, this difference is much more noticeable in a 71-year-old.

Donald Trump’s pupils are very frequently larger (often much larger) than they should be for healthy eyes of his age. His pupils are very often as large as they would be if they were medically dilated by an ophthalmologist (with eye drops, such as Tropicamide and Phenylephrine).

As a control, we can compare Trump’s pupils to those who have interviewed him, and are under the same light conditions. In the images immediately above and below, we see Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson during a 15 March 2017 interview.

Trump’s pupils are approximately 5.0 mm in diameter while Carlson’s are 3.0 mm. Carlson is 23 years younger than Trump, thus all other things being equal, Carlson’s pupils under equal light conditions should be larger — not equal, let alone smaller — than Trump’s pupils.

Are Donald Trump’s Large Pupils a complication Cataract Surgery?
This is highly doubtful
Cataracts are an entirely normal aging process. Virtually all 71-year-old people have at least mild evidence of cataracts (and certainly they may be moderate or advanced) and thus many will have cataract development to a degree for which surgery is indicated. And while it’s not entirely clear if Trump has had cataract surgery, some of the available images online are physically close and with high enough resolution to suggest this is the case.

For several decades it’s been considered at least a mild-to-moderate surgical complication to have a permanently dilated pupil (or partially/permanently/poorly reactive pupil) after cataract surgery. This complication can be thought of as a form of micro-trauma to the iris. Such findings are often a signal that other complications also occurred during surgery. While even in the best surgeon’s hands, complications do occur, the likelihood that Trump had this complication in both eyes, is extremely unlikely — because each pupil constricts and contracts — a healthy quality.

Large pupils after cataract surgery often cause a lot of unwanted symptoms (e.g., glare, reflection, increased astigmatic effect, photophobia, etc.). It’s possible that Trump has some of these symptoms, but probably not to any significant degree. Indeed, if the iris is damaged — leaving large pupils after cataract surgery, often a secondary procedure is performed to make the pupil smaller — thus minimizing any of the above-mention symptoms.

Trump’s pupils are equal (or very closely so). And although they are often larger than normal, they do vary in size and are at times “within normal limits”. This finding eliminates surgical complications as a cause of Trump’s often larger pupil size. Pupils damaged as a result of surgery wouldn’t respond in this manner.

In this image, his pupils are 3.5–4.0 mm (the slight difference in his pupil size [known as physiologic Anisocoria] is not significant or medically noteworthy — although certainly if one pupil was much larger or much smaller, it would be very important). So here we see that his pupils ARE indeed ABLE to contract to a smaller size — and this is crucial. But the question is — why are they intermittently so large, so often?

Are Trump’s large pupils due to him deliberate dilating his own pupils with eye drops?
This is highly doubtful
Medications such as Atropine, Scopolamine, Phenylephrine, Tropicamide, Homatropine, and Cyclopentolate are used to dilate pupils for ophthalmic examinations. These are also used to treat certain medical conditions in the eyes. Most notably these include various inflammatory conditions (Iritis, Uveitis, etc.). These conditions will often be correlated with diseases which frequently have serious ramifications for other parts of the body (thus may represent ophthalmic manifestations of systemic diseases).

Occasionally, people will deliberately dilate their pupils so as to feign a medical condition and thus seek attention (Munchausen syndrome). This is an extremely unlikely cause in the case of President Trump’s pupils — for he always tries to present himself as extremely healthy.

Very uncommonly to rarely, a person will inadvertently get a bit of medication or a chemical compound in their eye which will dilate a pupil. There are even species of plants, which, upon gardening and then rubbing one’s eye will have this effect. When this occurs, it will almost always effect only one eye — not both. Again, a long-term observation of Trump’s eyes negates this possibility.

Are Trump’s large pupils due to Trauma?
Highly Doubtful

What about trauma? Could eye or head trauma cause a person’s pupils to be large? Yes — but not in Trump’s case. Since Donald Trump’s pupils change in size over time, and they are round (not irregular in shape) and equal in size — trauma can be eliminated as a cause.

What about a Disease or other Medical Condition?
Below is a list of medical causes of Enlarged Pupils, none of which applies in Trump’s case, for multiple reasons, but in particular because his pupil size changes over time and also would have multiple other associated symptoms with any of these conditions.

Adie’s Pupils, bilateral
Botulism
Cardiac Arrest
Cranial Nerve III (Oculomotor nerves), partial and bilateral,
Diabetes Mellitus
Diphtheria
Encephalitis
Guillain–Barré syndrome
Hypermagnesemia
Hypothermia
Increased Intracranial Pressure
Iris scaring (synechia) secondary to injury or inflammatory disease (Iritis/Uveitis)
Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
Sarcoidosis
Sylvian Aqueduct Syndrome
Syphilis (Neurosyphilis)
Tumors/space occupying lesions
Venom from various poisonous animals (certain snakes, spiders, octopi, and fish)
Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome

What about Medications/Drugs as a Cause of Trump’s Large Pupils?
This cause is Highly Likely
Are Trump’s large pupils caused by Systemic Drugs? (medications not used in eye drops [as mentioned above], but taken by mouth or by other means) — From a medical standpoint, this is highly probable. Here’s a of list of the possibilities (of course, anesthesia and those labeled with “poisoning” and “overdose” don’t apply):

5-HT2A receptor-mediated psychedelic drugs

5-Hydroxytryptophan

Adrenaline

Amphetamine
Anesthesia (deep general anesthesia or near-total spinal anesthesia)

Antidepressants such as (such as TCAs [overdosage], SSRIs, SNRIs, and MAOIs)

Antihistamine overdose

Barbiturates

Bretylium intoxication

Chlorphentermine

Cocaine

Cyanide poisoning

Dopamine

Ephedrine

Fenfluramine

Glutathimide overdose

Methanol poisoning

MDMA (Ecstasy)

Noradrenaline

Propranolol overdose

Quinine toxicity

Trimethaphan

Tryptophan overdose

Summary: President Donald Trump’s pupils are intermittently and significantly dilated — from a medical standpoint, this is NOT normal. The ambient light conditions cannot account for such changes. At other times they are within normal limits. This intermittent pattern is NOT due to trauma, complications from surgery, or disease. I have not examined Donald Trump and I have no firsthand knowledge of him — however, the myriad of photographic evidence available online seems to point strongly to the remaining possible etiology — Donald Trump’s Intermittently Dilated Pupils are due to the side effects of drugs/medications.

Recent reports by journalist Kurt Eichenwald are consistent with this conclusion.

I invite everyone to refute or confirm these medical findings — particularly those physicians with neuro-ophthalmology expertise.

I also suggest that an independent party set up a publicly available, online photo/video diary to chronologically highlight and monitor President Trump’s pupils.

[Anjae]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/apr/24/scientists-create-decoder-to-turn-brain-activity-into-speech-parkinsons-als-throat-cancer - Scientists create decoder to turn brain activity into speech

Still experimental, but great news.

[Velika]

Fascinating read on electronic brain stimulation, the basal ganglia and nucleus ambens, and personality changes (ranging from mild to severe):

Deep Brain Stimulation
https://aeon.co/essays/is-deep-brain-stimulation-for-better-health-worth-the-risk

In a small number of cases, stimulation of the subthalamic nucleus (an area of the brain underneath the thalamus that modulates output from the basal ganglia, and which is the preferred target for DBS in Parkinson’s) has been associated with extreme shifts in mood and behaviour, with lives disrupted and derailed.

Affected patients might go on gambling binges and lose their life savings or land in catastrophic debt. In one reported case, a patient’s gambling became so pathological that he had to sell his house to finance his debts; his wife then asked for a divorce, and the patient attempted suicide.

Yet others may become hypersexual and manic. There have been reports of patients who have developed uncharacteristic sexual urges that they feel unable to control. One conservative, mature gentleman began to aggressively insist on sexual gratification every night following DBS treatment. Another report describes a woman who lost all inhibition under DBS, and who began to expose herself to male members of her family, demanding sex.

Other times, changes can be more benign. One patient receiving stimulation to the nucleus accumbens, a part of the forebrain involved in reward and addiction, had not been that much of a music fan prior to DBS treatment. But, under stimulation, he unexpectedly became a devoted fan of the musician Johnny Cash, buying all of his CDs and DVDs, and banning other music that he had previously liked.

[Anjae]

And yet, deep brain stimulation can, and has, great effects in many. As with everything, the results will vary from person to person and, probably, because of severity of the matter and several other factors.

Scientists have found that an hormone may be related to hypersexuality/sexual addiction (the hormone is oxytocin): https://neurosciencenews.com/hypersexual-disorder-hormone-14962/

Who is to say, hormones, or other chemicals and/or brain functions aren't behind MLC?

Is it unbalanced oxytocin that is responsible for the hypersexuality some MLCers have? For bipolar and bordeline people hypersexuality? I don't know, and, so far, nor do scientists.

[Anjae]

A different way of seeing the affair, a simple explanation of the main brain/neurobiolgical process during an affair:

This article explains a bit the neurobiology of the affair: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-fantasy-and-reality-of-an-affair_b_10417310?guccounter=1

Lots of food for thought.

"Because that part of your brain - your limbic system - hijacks any sensibility and rational thought when you are knee deep in the throws of an affair."

" Two primary parts of the brain are at work during an affair that extend to opposite ends of the spectrum and, unfortunately, don't work in unison. The limbic part of our brain holds all the emotions and functions outside of morality and good decision making that the neocortex - or the most developed part of our brain for working memory, impulsivity, executive functioning -- handles"

"An affair charges up your dopamine (neurotransmitter) to your reward system. It makes you feel alive and charged up! All you can see is this person."

"Soon you will find yourself breaking all of your rules and devaluing your 'values' that, at one time, felt so strong."

"During an affair, it's difficult to stay rational and hope that the part of your brain - the neocortex - steps in and takes over the limbic system that sends you on a constant roller coaster, leaves you emotionally and mentally exhausted, and feeling like there is no end in sight - the end that you want."

[Not Applicable]

I find it hard to believe that people having affairs were recruited for a study where they put them in some sort of scanner to analyze their brains and see what parts were working and which weren't. 

Anyone can publish an article on HuffPost. It's not a reliable resource.

And if someone has a doctorate, I am surprised they are talking about the "throws" of an affair. 

[Nas]

As an editor, I was not at all surprised to see "throws of an affair."
I've worked on a lot of reports for clinical studies and pharmaceutical research.  Science-based scholars are not grammar majors.  Even the most brilliant researchers often mix up homonyms and spell things very incorrectly.

What struck me more is that this article (and I read lots of things similar to this when I first learned about my H's affair) only explains what happens at the beginning of an affair - mostly the time when it's secret, usually even before BD.  Limerence research explains similar things.
 It doesn't explain the presumably varied and complex reasons that a person remains with an affair partner for 3, 5, 10, 15 years. 

[Anjae]

The original study is not from HuffPost. It is well know how affairs change the brain and that being involved in an affair is like being high or drugs, namely cocaine.

Have you ever been madly in love? If so, you know the feeling and how addictive it is. Nothing new in the brain being flooded with dopamine when there is an addiction with is what affairs tend to be.

What struck me more is that this article (and I read lots of things similar to this when I first learned about my H's affair) only explains what happens at the beginning of an affair - mostly the time when it's secret, usually even before BD.

The article is about the affair, not a relationship that may follow it. Most non-MLC affairs tend to just it, the affair.

Once there is no more secret and especially if the couple starts living together it will turn into what relationships turn into. Unless they two people keep doing things to make sure there is a high, the high will be gone.

If people remain in a relationship like Mr J and OW1, living apart and seeing each other once a week or so, the high and fantasy can carry on. However, there will be trust and other issues. You already know the person you're with can cheat/does not have a problem being involved with a married person.

Once the affair is out of the shadows and becomes the primary, or only relationship, it is no longer an affair. Affairs are secret things.

It doesn't explain the presumably varied and complex reasons that a person remains with an affair partner for 3, 5, 10, 15 years.

It doesn't because it is about the affair itself, the secret part, not about relationships that started as an affair. Relationships that started with an affair, which is what most of our MLCer have, or have had, is a different matter.

We like to call affair to the relationship or marriage to OW/OM, but it is not. As soon as it in the open it stops being so. Do you thing remarried MLCers are still having an affair? Or those that spend years living with OW/OM? I don't