[amazinglove]

Turning a page  -
link to my last thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12151.0

it starts here: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12129.0

Someone wiser than me on here recently pointed in the direction of radical acceptance - accepting the reality of things so that pain doesn't necessarily become suffering. I really love the idea behind that and it's something I've been sitting with for a few days.

I have never accepted things that were difficult without trying to change them. It's my nature.  Job-wise, I was literally a "producer" for some time and that is an apt description of me if there ever was one. It's a character trait that has served me well in a lot of ways - I've achieved things that no one believed I would be able to do because of it. But in this instance, when my H (soon to be exH) is spiraling out of control in this kind of destructive selfish frenzy, I realized that nothing I was doing or saying was influencing the outcome in any way, shape or form - it was just prolonging the excruciating pain of having a front row seat to watch him devolve into someone despicable.

Thus, radically accepting the reality of what's happened and who he now is - how he's betrayed me and continues to let down/damage my kids - and working from that reality upwards. It's funny how people in this forum have been telling me this in one way or another, from DAY ONE - but I guess it does take a while for things to catch up when your ears are still ringing from a bomb drop.

I would love to know from you guys - was there a tipping point for you when you started to, (I would say embrace here, but it's def not an embrace because that implies a willingness, maybe absorb?)  the shock of the new reality and move from there?

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing you are not the only one who had a hard time with acceptance. It took me 2 years while everybody was telling me the reality, I was hoping what I was seeing was just passing or I could change my x by putting pressure on him or being kind to him. Then one day I realized I couldn’t take it anymore. My body and mind were so exhausted from the constant up and down. I had to let go and went NC and only then I started to heal with the help of my therapist. But at least we tried. You can look back and say I did my best.  Hang in there.

[xyzcf]

Like everything else here, acceptance is different for each LBSer. Certainly when there are children involved, there  is more opportunity to see the MLCer and there are pros and cons with that.

Some feel that no contact is the only way to heal and accept what has happened.

Personally, seeing him allowed me to witness the changes that were occurring and granted me confirmation that he was not the same man ........ it was confusing because for a long time, I wanted the old Mr. xyzcf back and acceptance came with the realization that the old Mr. xyzcf was gone.

I struggled with trying to figure out how that could have happened and eventually let go of trying to find the reason....and accepted  the person he had become.

I knew that it was important to me to somehow remain connected as a family...a legal document did not dissolve our family and our daughter was in agreement with me so he has always remained in our lives.

Acceptance was the important key to healing....understanding his crisis, the changes that have occurred but realizing that he remains an important part of my life and always will be brought me to a place of peace and ability to let go of what was and embrace what is.

[Reinventing]

Amazinglove,

Yes, the realization that I could only control me was a watershed moment in my healing. Not to say that I was all in the clear then--I still had pain and work to do--but that realization was key.

It's a hard won lesson and I wish I had learned it at a much younger age. I would have saved a lot of energy for better things than trying to control something that wasn't under my control.

I would add that acknowledging, as painful as it was, that he is an adult human being who has the right to choose where he lives and who he is with was another realization that helped.

[Treasur]

Just as Reinventing said, I found Acceptance is a strange gift that perhaps comes to many of us with a few more years on the planet. I think we just start to have more experience of things that we can’t control or change, much as we wish we might - illnesses, bereavements, things happening around us in the world. There’s a saying I think I remember to the effect that we can’t avoid pain in life, but suffering usually comes along with trying to avoid an unwelcome reality…..bc of course reality keeps showing up regardless of our preferences lol…and suffering is really about that gap between what we want and what we think we have.

It can be a sort of second cousin to despair though…and, having spent a bit of time in the land of despair, I wouldn’t recommend it. And also tbh despair isn’t a very accurate lens either; it skews things, I think. And I found that balancing act came along with figuring out one’s own take on Big Acceptance.  Some way of saying this really is real and it sucks AND this time, and my perspective on it, will pass into something I can’t see yet AND how can I play the cards in my hand as well as I can even if I didn’t pick the cards AND what are the other good things I can see and also accept. Not an easy balance imho and it takes a little while to figure out your own version.

Looking back, I think it took me a few years and didn’t really begin for me until my xh remarried so 2-3 years. That was a marker somehow for me, more than I knew. And it began a shift that my former h’s life and mine were completely separated things….that sounds small, but it was a big shift. That my pain, my recovery, my memories, my thoughts and my delights had nothing at all to do with my once much loved husband - and vice versa. That felt a bit sad, maybe another kind of loss, and also rather freeing bc it felt like finally I was in charge of my own ship without the constant buffering of someone else’s storm.

Your desire for the karma bus to show up is very understandable. I bet a bunch of us are nodding along lol. But tbh it’s also about a kind of residual attachment, an instinctive feeling that his karmic outcomes - good or not so good - have anything at all to say about you and your life. Big Acceptance I think comes with more of a feeling that it no longer matters much, that it changes nothing about what has already happened and will make no significant difference to what will happen in your future. Like a stranger on a train. But I’d imagine  that is a slightly more complicated thing when one has children and has to observe the effect of the MLCers behaviour on them.

I did come to believe that the reality of the karma bus - our own and others - is more about living with the reality of who you become through your actions and the natural effects of those actions over time. My former h created a great deal of distress and damage for a lot of people who cared deeply about him, he destroyed a whole bunch of things that had been built and co-created over decades. And nothing was going to be the same after that, not for me and not for him and not for others who valued him as a person. I’ve had to find a way to live with those effects on my own life but it must also be true that he will have had to find his own way to do so too. And with the kind of human being he allowed himself to become through his actions.

I don’t know what that would feel like, and I can see why distraction and denial of the basic facts of it would be appealing bc it’s not a pretty picture usually. So I think that’s where karma shows up for these folks - you either keep denying reality by telling yourself a story that sidesteps what you chose to create and destroy, or you do your own version of Acceptance eventually which is rather hard and painful probably. Perhaps harder even than for us bc you own so much of the destruction in reality…you were the initiating energy of a lot of bad stuff….and I’m not sure how one could ever repair anything if you wanted to, like your relationship with your own children down the line, without calling that karmic spade a spade. A bit like the 12 step principles really. Leaving these folks perhaps karmically caught between a rock and a hard place. Perhaps karma is eventually a really pure version of reaping exactly what you sowed and finding it increasingly tricky to blame what you reap on anyone else?

[amazinglove]

I loved this line Treasur  "reality of the karma bus is more about living with the reality of who you become through your actions"--their karma is that they have to live with themselves and their choices' Thanks for that.  That is really insightful and helpful to me.  .

On another note I would love some of you wise ones to weigh in.  My kids are aware that their dad is choosing not to be here with them. At first he blamed his long overseas absences on caring for his dad but they know he no longer needs my H over there. Rather than let them think that there is something lacking in them that makes him not want to be here, I have expressed things like, 'well daddy, is making bad choices right now,' or 'daddy is missing out on being here because he doesnt have his head on straight right now,' or 'daddy is not doing the right thing but we are going to be great the three of us' or whatever. I am throwing him under the bus because I do not want them to internalize anything negative about themselves - more than they are prob already doing. Is that something that makes sense? He is in reality, running aroudn with a $l()tty and disgusting AP and the fact that I am leaving that out of the explanation is extremely generous of me. as far as I'm concerned and only because it wil hurt my 7 and 11 year old to hear about this at such a young age.
Secondly he has been really remiss in contacting them. like super lazy and lame. And my 11 year old girl who adores her dad is angry at him. I told her if she does not want to reply to him she does not have to - but conversely she can call him any time she wants to speak to him and does not have to wait for him to contact her. She can bring up hard things (she told him the other day, i think you are being selfish right now) or NOT bring up hard things and just have a nice chat, whatever she wants to do at the time. That she can make that call and either choice is ok.
So he's written two days in a row - idiotic things like just saying i love you kiss your brother - no question or any attempt to engage, and she is ignoring him and I'm ok with that. I thought about writng him to say stop being such a $h!te and pay better attention to your kids at least text them daily but at the same time i'm like, it's not my job to moderate this and without my daily check ins REMINDING him that he has children (which i was doing before this whole NC thing started) we are seeing who he is without me helping that along. I considered starting it up again in order to keep him more engaged - for their benefit - but then i was like, no, i can't do that the rest of my life either.
any thoughts?

[Treasur]

This is a tricky one for me as a non parent, so I hope others will turn up to share their experience.

What I hear you asking is essentially two questions. What should I tell my children about what is happening to their family life and why it is happening? And should I intervene to try to improve the communication from their father to them?

Seems to me it’s a really normal instinct to want to protect your children and it must be excruciating to deal with situations when you fear you can’t. What are you trying to protect them from? I hear some concern that they will think that daddy left bc of them in some way? Or perhaps that they weren’t a good enough reason for him to stay? Anything else? Bc imho it helps usually to be as clear-eyed as we can be about what we are trying to achieve before we try to come up with a good way of achieving it.

Here’s the bit where my non parenting take, and my own pov, might skew my lens a bit so take it for what it’s worth. Which might be nothing lol.

I think - probably inadvertently - you are editorialising a bit with the ‘daddy’s lost his mind’ take. That it is more about Why than What. You may be right, but it’s a particular path with a particular vista if you are 9 or 11. And of course, likely to be at odds with his PoV. And tbh I think most of us here go round the houses on our own assessment of that…the bad vs mad thing, MLC or character chickens coming home to roost. How we see it can change, and the extent to which we see it as an excuse or useful explanation or even a prediction of own experience can change. I don’t think there is probably a single LBS here who did not first show up with some version of the ‘is my spouse nuts, am I and what can I do to make this go away?’ question, right? It’s normal. But I think I’d want to tread carefully with sharing my interpretation if it is something I think but can’t 110% know for sure, even if it is what I honestly think. There’s a sort of healthy sane accuracy imho about reaching a point where we can more comfortably separate out what we think from what we know, and it’s a common bit of the LBS process.

Given my own experience of how very damaging gaslighting can be to one’s sense of internal safety and confidence, nowadays I’m a bit of a fan of telling the factual truth with minimal editorial and letting others, even small others, figure out what they need to deal with that as well as they can. More What than Why. And that’s it’s ok to say sometimes ‘I don’t know’ when you actually don’t/can’t know for sure.

So, what do you kids think is actually factually happening right now?
And what do they know about what is factually likely to happen next?
And how do you know those things? What are they saying/doing that tells you something about how they see it currently?

Which probably raises the question in your own mind of what YOU think has factually happened/is happening/will happen next probably? Do you know? If you had to use really simple language of What and How without getting too much into the Why or What It Means - as if you were talking to someone for whom English is a third language say - what would you say?

Bc often I think in life when we are not sure what to say it’s possible that we are not entirely clear in our own minds yet. And in this kind of situation that’s normal and understandable, but perhaps not always helpful.

Years ago, I used to coach young leaders. Many struggled with making presentations or how to communicate big change proposals. And tbh often that was bc they were not yet entirely clear in their own minds, when the (usually many lol) words got in the way of the essence of what they were trying to say and to achieve by saying it. And imho there are lots of life situations when that happens, aren’t there?

My advice then, and now, is a couple of simple things…..start at the end and work backwards, so focus on what you want people to do or see differently as a result of your communication vs where they are now as a starting place. Probably a max of 3 big messages, an absolute max of 5 at most bc humans struggle to process more than that.  Then take out everything that doesn’t obviously serve that goal, all the embroidery. (You can always have that in your back pocket if people ask about it, of course).

And my second bit of advice was to draw it on a single page, like a baby flow diagram….to check it works both forwards and backwards…and bc it helps you see gaps and ‘sprinkling of fairy dust here’ assumptions in your own thinking. Or indeed stuff you feel strongly about which might not be as relevant to the core message as you think. A kind of simple version of Relevant Facts I See, What I Think Those Facts Mean, What I Propose You/We Should Do and a Here’s Where We Could Start as.a First Step. (Or in biz language, Findings, conclusions and recommendations with a clean line from Findings forward and Revimmendations backward) And then give folks a bit of time to think and chew on it lol. Bc the questions people ask - including small people - tells you better than anything else what they are looking for at that moment. STFU and listen is a much underrated bit of communication lol.

The real goal of this is for YOU to get even more clear on WHAT you want to say and HOW you want to say it in order to achieve what END POINT. What are FACTS and which FACTS are most relevant for them. (So as an example the ‘daddy has a girlfriend which is not ok in a marriage’ route might be more relevant if you think that your kids are going to get introduced to ow….maybe in a long distance situation, that’s less relevant, idk) And of course WHEN you think the best time is for them to be able to most hear what you are trying to say.

[Treasur]

On the second issue of intervening, or chivvying or coaching your h into being a more active and empathic parent?
I suspect you know your own answer to this.
But let me break it down in case it helps you or anyone else.

First, what can you honestly control and what can you not? And at what cost?

Secondly, please be very kind to yourself about your desire to protect your children from things in the real world that might hurt or damage them. How healthy and normal is that, right? And how upsetting when you see the limitations of what you can do, whether it’s a mean kid at school, serious life events in the family like an illness, the death of a pet maybe or that moment when they loose the innocence of believing Santa is real. (Sorry for any LBS here if that comes as an unwelcome shock. My mother told me it was a big deal for me when I was about 8 lol)

Thirdly, please recognise that it is part of the LBS process of seeing the wood for the trees to believe that if we can find just the right words, other people will see things differently and behave differently. Experience tells us slowly that this is rarely true imho. More often, it isn’t that people don’t SEE, it’s that they DON’T AGREE or DON’T CARE about it in the same way. Unless your h is cognitively challenged, there’s no way he does not know what he is doing (or not doing) and that this will affect his children and his relationship with them to some degree. For adults, including disordered adults, insight doesn’t usually seem to come from others’ words - if it ever comes - but from our own experience of effects that we don’t like much. We change bc staying the same becomes untenable for US, probably long after we’ve been told it’s untenable for others lol.  And if we keep doing something, it usually means that it’s ok enough with/for US to keep doing it, regardless of what others think or say or feel. It is unlikely that you could find the right perfect magic words to change that, even if you are as smart and good with words as you are.

Finally, and jmo, I think your real goal may be less about changing his behaviour and more about helping your kids to adjust to a presenting reality in a way that works best for them and is not self-damaging. And tbh that’s a pretty important life skill, isn’t it? To develop a clear eye about what belongs to us and what does not and how to develop our own comfortable boundaries with people who don’t treat us the way we’d like them to treat us. Particularly for girls imho bc there is still a lot of implied social pressure on females to do everyone else’s emotional management and to be ‘nice’. Although to be fair, your daughter sounds like she had good instincts!

So, as a non parent with a million caveats accordingly, I’d refocus your eye away from doing anything to get your h to be a different kind of father and towards how you can help your kids do the best they can with the reality of the kind of father they have right now. And that they are allowed to feel what they feel about that, and to pick the bits they will say Yes or No to, regardless of his opinion. (As are you of course!)

[forthetrees]

Along with the radical acceptance is that you cannot take away the hurt your kids are and will feel about being ignored. While you cannot change the source of the hurt, you CAN reassure them that YOU are not going anywhere, that you will be there for them. They have already likely have made the calculation that Daddy has abandoned them and though wishful thinking will be with them for a long time, they also have to face reality- Daddy is not in the US but Mommy is. I would do way less of anything that puts down Daddy to them (vent away elsewhere) and focus on the reassurance. As far as explaining the whys of Daddy´s absence you can go the religious route and show them wedding vows and say he did not keep his promise, show them the 10 Commandments and explain adultery, tell them that Daddy is taking a time-out because he´s having trouble following the rules of the house but with a caution that this time out is not going to end with Daddy coming back to live with all of you. You could ask them what they would like to see in a custody/visitation situation. They do know that divorce is coming, yes? For sure I would have them go see a counselor. That way they can express things that they have been holding back in order to protect you. In regards to communication, I think having established time windows for calls and the use of text or emails is fine. Hopefully your kids don´t have their phones at night. It is your husband who will have to deal with time changes. You might need a boundary of no texts before school because that could alter their whole day either in expecting one and not getting one or in getting one that is somehow off-putting. But it is not your responsibility to make sure they communicate only that you do not block it. Do not allow yourself to be the agent of change that alters their relationship with their Dad- let any change lie at his feet.

[Trustandlove]

Hi, amazinglove,

A counselor suggested the following when I was where you are (10 year olds in my case):

Something along the lines of:  when people are unhappy they can choose either to work out how to be happy where they are, or they can choose to leave.  Daddy chose to leave. 

I constantly emphasised that it wasn't to do with them, and also did say that while I wasn't perfect that it wasn't even so much to do with me (near the beginning I had one child cry that I needed to "apologise and get Dad back").   They did feel for a long time, however, that it was because they were naughty, or that they had done something wrong.  That has taken its toll, I'm afraid. 

My constant saying was "I wish I could wave my magic wand and make this all better, but I can't"  so we have to deal with this.  (they now laugh when I say that about anything crappy)

As they grew I adjusted what I said to be age-appropriate; there did come a point where I had to say that no, it wasn't right to have a girlfriend while married to someone else. 

At the beginning I also said that I didn't really understand what was happening, but that we had to deal with things as best we could.  That was true -- I didn't understand.  At the beginning I did say that I was sure that he loved them, but that he wasn't happy right now and was working on it.  (That is what he had said to them once).  I think I stopped saying "I'm sure he loves you" after 3 or 4 years, though. 

But it didn't help that when my daughter, when visiting him, asked him why he wasn't at home he replied that he had a new life now.  That hurt her a lot, not to mention hurt me. 

As they grew I did tell them that they could tell him how they felt the same way that they told me if they liked or didn't like something.  I think you're telling them that they don't have to reply, but of course can contact him whenever they like is good.  It's so hard for them to navigate this.

My children were afraid to say how they felt; they were scared that he would distance himself further.  They felt punished. 

There were definitely times when I told him exactly how hard this was for them, that may not have been a good idea, but it certainly happened.  I definitely didn't handle everything perfectly, but I handled it the best I could at any one time. 

What I don't necessarily agree with is that very young children are suddenly expected to navigate horrible situations by themselves -- so the first years I did speak to my then H to say what the children did and didn't want to do.  I didn't call him to say things necessarily, but I did, for example, relay the message that they wanted to see him on his own, rather than with an OW (he went through many).  As they grew they then did this for themselves. 

My approach may or may not have been right, but I could only do the best I could do, as is true for us all. 

What I didn't do was text him to ask him to contact them, though.  Not that I didn't contact him, I did (probably far too much in the early years), but if I had something to say I would wait until he came to pick them up or something. 

amazinglove, this really sucks, and however hurt we ourselves are seeing what it does to our kids is a million times worse.  I think it is OK for you to say that you are hurt and confused as well, but that no matter what, you will be there.  That I found was most important for them -- for quite a number of years after he left they wouldn't let me out of their sight, they absolutely needed to know where I was every single moment, if I was seeing a friend they needed to know who and where.  I don't think you can reassure them too much about that.  And of course always be there when you say you will be. 

My kids caught me crying sometimes (I tried to keep that out of their sight); all I said was that things sometimes got  hard for me, but (and this I think is crucial), it wasn't to do with them. 

I think you are doing brilliantly; I took years to sort myself out.  I'm sure I made many mistakes with my children as well, but what I found always helped was to say so if I did something wrong, and constantly reassure them that I loved them and that I was there. 

The one thing I never did was say anything along the lines of this being a joint decision.  None of this "mummy and daddy don't want to be together any more", which I understand many divorcing couples say.  I tried very hard never to "bash" him, but I didn't say that we had agreed this.  I did sometimes have to say that this is what it had to be because he had left, though. 

Looking back on what I have written it sounds so glib; I bet if someone dug through my old threads they would find much more of the complete mess that I was.

But what I can say years later is that my relationship with my now adult children is very strong, and my former H doesn't have one with them.  My children tell me that they think I handled things well, from what they can remember.

Just keep going -- one foot in front of the other. 

xx

[Trustandlove]

And while I was writing I saw FTTs post -- I agree completely with what she says about YOU being there!

[amazinglove]

So I've started reading fiction again. This is a good development for me, as in the weeks and months after BD I couldn't concentrate enough to read anything, and then it was just 8 stages of a mid-life crisis, or shut out wife or lose a cheater gain a life kind of stuff. All reading that connected to my personal pain. Now i'm back to boigraphies/memoirs/spy-detective thrillers etc. I may even break out the Sedaris.
I was reading this one novel and in it, the main character, a 40-something college professor has an affair with one of his students. And of course, after one or two encounters he deeply regrets it, comes to his senses and tries to end it and go back to his loyal, loving wife, whom he really does love the whole time. He was lonely and they were not connecting and he was looking for an ego boost.
And describing how he felt the moment he realized that he had cheated on his wife for the only/first time in their 12 years of marriage and how things would never be the same, ever again, was triggering to me, because in my case, after 12 years of being faithful in our marriage, my H had an affair with a very old flame. I wonder if he laid in bed with her afterwards and thought anything like the same thing, esp knowing how seriously I take infidelity and knowing that if I found out I would almost certainly divorce him. How did that feel? did he even care?
BUT instead of like the man in the book, instead of trying to end it and return to a loyal wife, with whom he had enjoyed a loving marriage and two kids- he actually ran off with her and left me and more importantly, our kids, in the dust. It strikes me that if, we are two people who had grown apart, stopped sleeping together, stopped loving each other in 'that way' it might make sense, but we had not, and did not.
When I start to question my own judgment, I think so much of this is about him wanting to be someone other than who he is, and he is clutching at a new identity, something that only she can give him. I mean, after all I am very much a part of his old self, and every time he sees me he has to see that guy in my eyes - right? He has told me he 'hates' that guy. The honorable,unselfish, kind one I guess.
I find it interesting that while he's away with his AP (no idea where btw, I am in NC with him apart from essentials ab the kids and I am not asking him anything bc i do not want to know) he has not been in touch with a single family member in his FOO (they were close) or best friend. He has completely isolated himself with her for the past month or so. He barely texts the kids and hardly ever calls them. This is a first btw, even before when he was with her, he tried harder than this for the kids. My poor daughter is distraught. It's like he's ghosting his own child.
He texted me a few days ago about ab our son and said ' i think about him every day and hope that things get better for him at school. I'm sorry you have to deal with all these things by yourself too. I think about you too.'
I wanted to reply -that's what every woman needs in a husband and father - THOUGHTS. I wanted to reply 'your thoughts don't help me, at all' or maybe 'i don't think about you, ever.'

It was infuriating. But i left it, bc why engage with crazy right?

No matter how much I read, or attempt to detach and heal, things can bring me right back to that awful place in my head. But I'm getting better at getting out of it.

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing, I think it's the right thing to do not to reply to his text. It won't make any difference. I know how difficult it is not to get emotional when you get texts like that and to refrain yourself from reacting. I did this mistake a lot of times even two years after BD. And by the way, it's normal to be brought back in that awful place once you get reminders. After all your BD is not that long ago. Me even until now, I still get triggers and I'm already 5 years already since BD. But it does get better. Those triggers don't give me the same effect as 2 years ago. My xh has also cut off contact with our former friends, at least those I still have contact with. I don't know much about what is going on in is life as I don't have that much contact with him anymore. Once in a while, we text each other but I don't ask anymore what's new with him. So just hang in there. Keep sharing here.

[forthetrees]

Is there an emoji of a tiny violin being played?

[Treasur]

You’re doing so well, my friend, truly you are. And yes, most of us reach a stage when we feel that we have nothing useful to say in response to these kinds of messages bc those ‘thoughts’ are as much use as a chocolate teapot. And meanwhile in this new version of the life you did not choose, there are bills to be paid, kids to feed and cuddle, books to read and songs to sing. It’s not an easy situation but my word you are doing so well

[amazinglove]

I just put my 7 year old to bed who cried just before sleep saying “ I miss daddy. I miss him a lot. Why does he have to be away from us? Where exactly is he right now? How many months until I see my dad? What if it’s not until January? That’s so long!  I miss him” then he added “my dad is being a b—ch right now.”
My son is not really up to speed on the meaning of b&&&  but he knows it’s a bad word.
It broke my heart to him cry like this. I just told him his dad loves him very much and he could call his dad anytime and he can ask him when he is coming and yes his dad is being silly right now and he should be here but he does love him and he will come.
I have no idea what I’m doing. And then I see this IG video in the FB group on how sons are destroyed without their dad’s love and will grow up feeling unworthy and with ruined lives.. This is so so hard.

[FaithWalker]

I'm so sorry AL.  I know it's tough.  Despite the hard times, my boys are doing pretty great.  Of course, time will tell if there is a bigger impact yet to be seen on what happened to them as a result of the MLC, but at 19 and 24 I can say that I raised them pretty well despite our difficulties.  They were 10 and 15 at the time of BD.  I kept my focus on them and the 4 of us (S10, D13, S15) became a close knit family, weathering every storm together.  My oldest did go through a hard time, he attempted suicide shortly before he turned 18.  He realized that he didn't want to die though and drove himself to the hospital and had his stomach pumped.  It was a very hard thing for me to watch him go through.  From there he was finally able to get the help he needed, once everything was out in the open.  I don't know if my story helps you or makes you hurt worse, but what we went through has carved my boys (who are now men) to be who they are today.  I'm pretty proud of how far they've come.

[sachertorte]

I am so, sorry that your lovely kids and lovely you are going through this. I am 6.5 years in from BD and divorced for 4.5. My daughter was deeply hurt and still healing, even though now she understands she is, like all of us, meant for beautiful things. I wish to heaven none of this has happened to any of us.

On the issue of the old flame and the addition that your H is enthralled in. I came across this neuro- and psychological research last year:

Those reunited with a first or early love after years are "simultaneously bombarded with the giddy, explosive, highly sexual but ephemeral chemicals of new love coupled with the profoundly satisfying, deeply relaxing chemicals of long-term love," says Kalish. "They are able to tap all that again only with the lost lover, with whom the bond was formed."’
That makes sense to University of California at San Francisco School of Medicine psychiatrist Thomas Lewis, author of A General Theory of Love. "The adolescent brain is exposed to heightened levels of testosterone and progesterone, the steroid sex hormones involved in sexual intensity," he says. "There's also an increase in oxytocin, the same hormone that aids mother-and-child bonding following birth." Chemistry thus sets the stage for once-in-a-lifetime sexual intensity paired with a unique opportunity for attachment—creating a model of love that persists for life.

But the trouble in paradise is that, one study shows as powerfully addictive these relationships from formative years are, the chances they last are slim when either or both people were married when their paths crossed again.

I also knew of a couple who came together this way, with the man betraying his wife in middle age. The OW used to confide in me. I believed her story of his wife being terrible to him; I was too young and naive and it never occurred to me that they had every incentive to lie. FWIW, their relationship was full of distrust and discontent.

OW was a tormented, broken soul. She had very low self-esteem, being from a very sexist Asian family whose parents literally sacrificed her life to that of her brothers, forcing her to contribute the lion's share of her income so that these lazy profligates could marry. She and the man used to know each other when he worked in her country in his early twenties; their romance was thwarted by her parents due to racism and sexism.

So even though he was supposed to be reunited with the love of his life, the latter complained to me bitterly that he did not trust her with his money (smart move on his part, in retrospect, since she was always bullied into giving whatever money she had to her pathetic selfish brothers), and felt like a lot of his avowals were not backed up by action. She was becoming rapidly disillusioned, realizing they were no longer their young, innocent versions who loved without reserve and calculation. I think she was realizing that he was just as selfish towards her as he was toward the family he abandoned while claiming to love.

I knew of another guy who walked out on his wife when they were in their mid-60s for a high-school gf. He came back after four months. Implosion. Said "she doesn't look anything like she used to." I thought that was a really shabby comment. Never saw the man but can't imagine he was preserved from the ravages of time either. Some of these people are really out of touch with reality.

So you are his adult relationship, not formed in the throes of teen passion and enslaved to auto-suggest chemicals, not the escape of a dwindling consciousness from terrifying mortality, but freely chosen and sustained from mature love and self-knowledge. That he would leave your son in this lurch cannot but give the lie to any romantic relationship under the sun. It's neither mature, nor loving, nor self-knowing.

I hope your H wakes up in time. He is immensely fortunate. Take care and bless.

[amazinglove]

thank you all for those kind replies. esp Sashaforte - that meant so much to me. thank you those examples and insight was really helpful.

Ok so there have been some updates.

I had a long interaction with him on text the other night. It started bc he was asking ab my son's medication - a question i'm always willing to answer for him. and somehow I got on to the fact that he was letting down our daughter by not calling enough. at first he got very defensive ab the time differnece and so i said "set an alarm you absolute s*** of a human", oh, and "maybe don't live on the other side of the world from your children". he got defensive (shocker!) and said 'and why did I have to leave? because of you!! you made my life a misery there! i was miserable every day."

In the growth dept....this did not rattle me in the slightest, because I realized, none of it lands anymore with me. I replied 'i dont deserve any of that, but even if ok, you left because of me, that does not explain why you have been so terrible ab staying in touch with your children." he apologized and said he woudl do better. i then said pls sign those papers (i had him served on email) and he said no, and i said why not and he said 'i don't want to lose you' (this was like 2 sentences after he told me how awful I was). i said, you already lost me. he said i love you and i said "forget ab me, focus on your kids." i said "what you broke i cannot fix, i wouldn'tn know where to start' and we are over and we need to face the truth' he said 'my soul is broken'. i said well, there is help out there available for you, but i dont think you are in the right place to receive it.

I said we need to tell the kids bc they are internalizing this and blaming themselves that you are not here. So I was going to tell them and whether he signs or not, he just replied, "i love you, i loved you and i will always love you!!!!!!!!! " his exclamation marks not mine)

honestly, it just made me cry. Cry because i am not even dealing with an adult as I try to navigate what to do next. Just a giant baby. I wanted to talk to him about visitation, how to handle visits (i dont want him sleeping here in the house), when he will come so the kids can look forward to it (which IC suggested), how to tell the kids, whatever, and instead i just get this kid with hands over his ears going 'blah blah blah, i love you i love you i love you'

He called our 11 year old the next 3 days in a row. which was a big improvement from before however, it did not have the desired effect. if anything it upset her more to hear from him more. (which surprised me) AND i over heard him saying goodbye to her last night and it rattled me. they normally speak Turkish together so I can't understand it, but he was saying to her in English, (she must have just asked him again when are you comign to visit) and he said 'don't you worry about me. you worry about the things you have to do there and focus on that. i will worry about things here. In the future, i will come to you...... and you will visit me.  i don't worry about you, you know how to handle yourself, but i do worry about your brother, make sure you look after him. i believe in you, and i want you to believe in me.'

I was APPALLED. for a few reasons but what jumped out to me was 1) he is speaking to her like an adult. in fact he has used those exact words when we were in diff countries 'don't worry ab things here, just handle what's in front of you there' - she is 11 years old!! is she supposed to raise herself? and 2) is she supposed to parent her 7 year old brother on his behalf too???!!! Additionally the coldness with which he said, ' you will visit me and i will visit you' was a total brush off. it was like, why are you bothering me with these trivial details - his tone was brusque and irritated - the trivial details of when you will see your dad again. and the 'i want you to believe in me too' is his laying the foundation for his personal PR when she finds out the truth of what he's done/doing? WHY SHOULD SHE?

I realized much later that he was speaking in English because he was not alone. His AP was next to him and he wanted her to hear him. That also explains why he was so firm and resolved ab the future - the day before he had cried speaking to my daughter ab how much he missed her. Maybe he wants his AP to see how resolved he is that his future is with her? i have no idea. but she was in the room , i'd bet on it.

I tried to comfort her. I told her that it was not fair what he said. She is totally normal to want to know when he is coming and ask him and her brother is not her responsibility. she asked me 'are you going to divorce daddy?" and i said yes, I am. First time i've been that direct. And as we started to talk about it (she thought I meant like years from now at first) and she thought he would still come visit us here at home for months at a time, she was upset with me but she was mad at him. I didnt tell her ab his gf in the end. I said 'daddy has been a really bad husband. he has done things a husband shoudl not do and I have given him as much time as I can to sort himself out and he is not willing to do it. and so i have to divorce him' and she asked me 'what kinds of things did he do?" and i said (bearing in mind she's 11) 'baby, i dont want to burden more than you are already carrying baby. if you ask me anything, i will tell you the truth and i will answer anything you ask and never lie, but you are already carrying so much, I don't want to add to it.' and she just looked down and said, 'i hate my dad. he sucks.' she did not want to know and I'm glad i gave her the chance NOT to. if that makes sense.

i proimsed her that she is going to have an amazing life and i will make sure of it. we are all going to be ok.

all in all a tough weekend. did i mention I was at a trampoline park on Sat for 2 hours?

[Treasur]

Oh dear, what a chocolate teapot of a human he is at the moment. Neither use nor ornament to anyone sensible.
You are certainly not the first LBS here to be dealing with a MLC spouse who acts this way which I hope is some small comfort. Staggeringly textbook on his part though and still not about you. Glad you can see that bc it can be crazy making otherwise.

I am very sorry. That sounds like a rough old weekend.
But it sounds as if you handled it incredibly well with your daughter.

It struck me reading what you wrote that it’s a reasonable assumption that them making more contact with kids is a good thing for the kids, but that it isn’t always how it turns out. I suppose kids (naturally) want life to go back to ‘normal’ and they want their parent. What they often get is something else. And yes, not unusual at all here that an MLCer tries to ‘parentify’ one of the kids or gaslight them too. Human chocolate teapot full of Me Me Me. What seems to happen from anecdotes here is that - a bit like we LBS perhaps - kids start seeing that parent differently and they start to change their expectations and behaviour accordingly. Some kids seem to be rather good at calling BS on BS lol. But of course it hurts for a while as they do, just like us. I am so sorry. (And yes I’d bet that your instinct that ow was present hence the English is probably true….on the quacks like a duck principle. He’s no prize right now but she’s not either, is she? Fancy needing that kind of performance to be reassured that you ‘win’ over an 11 year old. As is often true, dysfunctional birds of a feather, I’m afraid)

It’s a good example of what a bunch of other LBS parents seem to have found - that your job is not to foster the relationship he has with your kids, just to not get in the way of it and to support them while they figure out the current reality of the father they have. And in a way that puts their needs absolutely first regardless of his tantrums or blah blah or sadz. Still, not easy and I’m sorry.

I suspect with time, and as your own mindset shifts, you’ll find it easier to exchange the basic info you need to and shut the text exchanges down as soon as it veers away from that. Bc your expectations of him behaving like a normal adult will change too.

Out of interest, do you have a plan B if he continues to refuse to sign the papers in that very MLCish way? (And yes it isn’t love, it’s a power play and trying to avoid predictable adult consequences) Do you have a plan for visits etc that you or your lawyer can offer like a constructive adult as opposed to waiting on him to deal with these adult things? So you/your lawyer are informing as opposed to asking.

Sometimes these MLCers, in the middle of the crazy making word salad, they do sometimes give you a window into their thinking (such as it is). And it sounds as if it is much like he said to your daughter….i’m focusing on here, so you just focus on what’s over there. Oh and I’d like you to still believe in me bc I believe that you’ll cope just fine with the mess I’ve made for you and that’s not my job, but I’d like to be able to pop back after my life ‘vacation’ and find you all ok on the porch waiting for me with bunting and a parade. He’s an idiot, of course, bc that’s not how life works, is it? But it telegraphs his current agenda and if that’s not one that works for you, probably suggests that you will need to say No to it (or more accurately DO No) rather than waiting for him to come up with a better plan. What might it look like if you offered exactly that focus? If you removed your attention completely from ‘him over there’ and just focused even more on ‘you here’ ? If you give him just what he says he wants, well, without the welcome mat on the porch bit lol? Anything that you would do differently now? Bc, jmo, one can only work with the actual cards one has in ones own hands - everything else is just background music really.

Still not about you though, is it? Bc you are not a Chocolate Teapot 😝

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing Im terribly sorry about your daughter and for you as well. It must be very difficult for you to see your daughter being hurt by their dad. I could feel the pain myself as I experienced being abandoned by our father and I was your daughter‘s age. I didn’t understand why he had to leave. But I think you handled it well than my mom. It is normal for a daughter to want to have their dad around, I‘d always wished that as a child. I envied other kids. But later on I saw and understood what my dad did.

With regards to your h telling you he loved you while doing what he’s doing. My x did that to me as well. We were going on a trip to an island before that he told me he had to travel alone because he wanted to have his me time as I was a controlling wife. 🙄 he left me in the hotel by myself. My sister came heavily pregnant to accompany me. And tried to convinced me to stay at her place and spend the holiday with them instead. All this time my x was with the hoe, and finally I told him I wasnt coming because I couldn’t accept that he was with the hoe. He told me same line as your husband that he loves me and the only woman he will love in his life is  me. He will even wait for 10 years waiting for me to accept him back blah blah blah. It hurt me so much. And guess what, it was all to take control of me. Looking back sometimes I think he enjoyed that part where I was running after him. The moment I start to let go he pulled me back again. For a long time that was our dynamic as I was a slow learner. Until at some point I realized I didn’t want to allow myself to be hurt by someone like that anymore. That’s when I kicked him out finally. And up to this day, nothing much has changed. My x is still the same, lost in the MLC world. So yeah do not believe what comes out of their mouth unless it backed by actions.

Trampoline is a good thing to shake off all those negative energies. Virtual hugs to you amazing. Your update reminded me of the time I was in your sitch. I got emotional reading your story. there will be good days.

[amazinglove]

Thank you both Dragonfly and Treasur. Both such excellent replies they really helped!

He was back messaging this am saying 'i dont want it to end like this. I don't want to lose you'

I locked the chat (a new feature in what's app that honestly makes it easier for men (and women) to have affairs and I am disgusted by this - BUT in this case handy, so, I locked the chat so I do not have to look at anything he writes or see his name in my chats but can also save any of this writing in case i need it for a court case. Also I am not blocking him, which is dicey when you have kids together, but I do not have to look at him or his idiotic words unless I want to.

I have watched with interest this whole Ben Affleck JLO thing I must admit. There are things that remind me of my situation (Hint, I'm the Jennifer Garner here) but the idea of a 2 year 'fever dream' (which is how Ben describes what happened), the 'greatest love story never told' and once they actually get each other, they realize that they are totally mismatched, and now kind of hate each other. Meanwhile they both pined for each other for years (he wrote her love letters throughout his marriage to JG which JLO felt free to pass around).

Looks like the only reason Ben Affleck was even able to stay married for 12 years and have kids was bc of the supernatural goodness and patience of his ex wife. Post JLO (she named the separation date as April) he already has a new side piece (or side KICK more aptly) he's been seeing since roughly June. But what intrigues me here, in addition to the obvious parallels (bearing in mind the Moscow Mule/Super Gran is nothing next to JLO) is that the two of them were like addicted to each other - high on 'their true luv" - and the reality has now bitten. They are not even speaking now. It's satisfying to see if I'm honest -also the fact that jen Garner has a new millionaire, and stable, boyfriend.

[xyzcf]

Not just a tough weekend, it's been a very tough several months for you and the children.

In the state that you live, is there "no-fault divorce?" If he refuses to sign, are you able to obtain the divorce regardless?

It doesn't sound like he is going to be around much in the US so I am not sure that there will be regular parenting time with him. Pretty typical of the MLCer to also have limited and sometimes no time with their children.

Having to deal with your own grief at the loss of your marriage and family is hard enough. Seeing your children hurt makes it even more difficult.

I am glad that you are able to discuss how to arrange visits in the best interest of your children and for your own well being.  Sometimes the problem can be that the MLC parent is not consistent in their visiting times or phone contact and this makes it very confusing for the children.

There is a program called Rainbows for all children. Coping with Separation and Divorce.

https://rainbows.org/resources/divorce-separation/

They have a lot of resources and support groups for children. They are located all over the US and abroad. they have excellent information of how to talk to children about divorce and many other topics.

This is a very sad time for you and your family but you have shown yourself to be amazingly resilient and proactive. You have no trouble pointing out the inconsistencies in his actions and although your words probably will not change anything, you do get to say what you think.

Cry because i am not even dealing with an adult as I try to navigate what to do next. Just a giant baby. I wanted to talk to him about visitation, how to handle visits (i dont want him sleeping here in the house), when he will come so the kids can look forward to it (which IC suggested), how to tell the kids, whatever, and instead i just get this kid with hands over his ears going 'blah blah blah, i love you i love you i love you'

We really cannot make sense of what they are saying or doing. Time and time again, you will read similar accounts of their bizarre behavior.

You and your little ones are in my prayers.

[beyondblessed]

AL, I am sorry you are dealing with a child; trying to negotiate very adult things and seemingly getting nowhere.  My heart also breaks for your children, the innocence they should know at this time in their young lives has been ripped away....and you are left alone to deal with the fallout.  Pure MLC script at its finest.  Just when you think they couldn't possibly disappoint any more, they sink even lower.  And, as you've mentioned, you can't even begin to imagine fixing the situation, even if such a thing was within your power, which of course, it is not. 

Regardless of all of his protests of forever love, while cheating thousands of miles away, you are doing an amazing job of protecting and loving your children and yourself, and doing what will best serve all of you.  I hope for all of your sakes, he will have just one moment of clarity and do the adult thing and sign those papers.

I haven't really followed the whole JLo and Ben thing, but dang if those 2 weren't already doomed from the start.  They both brought the same baggage from 20 years ago and expected a different out??  Really?? lol  Sorry, but that isn't how the Universe works.  Sooner or later, we all reap what we sow.  Those two are a prime example of two highly publicized lives, both with dysfunctions that didn't play well with each other.  I've watched
 my own MLC xh from afar go through something similar with his "soulmate" OW.  They were also in twu luv for the first couple years, until the new and shiny wore off.  Now they are no longer together and are reaping exactly what they sowed.

[UrsaMajor]

Is there an emoji of a tiny violin being played?

Not an Emoji but....

[MadLuv]

Amazing ❤️- my children are adults, but the pain is real. Having a father for 30 years discard them like they mean nothing, just like me. Your kids are younger and it so hard to explain to adult kids, so younger is just impossible to navigate at times, specially when you are still trying to sort it all out for yourself. All you can do is reaffirm that they are amazing, loved and special. That their fathers actions are from internal struggles he hasn’t worked out and has nothing to do with them.

As I told my children. Your father in his right mind loves you. He isn’t in his right mind, but despite his behavior he still loves you. To me he thinks very highly of you. Thats why he stays away. He isn’t ready to face his lack in judgement and morals. You remind him of who he was and he is embarrassed that he let you down.  It is 100% on him and nothing to do with you. Period!!!

Keep doing you, AL. You are navigating it all so well. For me it wasn’t until I completely cut all contact that I could sort out things and see things more clearly.
Everyones situation is different and my husbands secrecy and unhinged behavior kept me a little unhinged. You are keeping it all together pretty well  and you should be so proud. Little by little as you regain your self and pride you get stronger . You are well on your way much sooner than most.

[amazinglove]

First and most importantly thank you for all of those kind and generously wise replies! They were all v helpful!
I have had a rough few days just all the things all at once as tends to happen sometimes. I really do feel like I need a win somewhere.
My kids are extra needy bc dad has effectively abandoned them. My son doesn’t even like me to leave the house and both kids get annoyed when I am in zoom meetings for work much of the day- and I’m working from home! The pressure I am under in all things is magnified by their enormous needs. I feel overwhelmed much of the time. My life does not feel like my own - just a series of running from one obligation (work) to another (kids dentist, doctors, parent teacher conf, urgent care for a poked eye on Labor Day, meals, homework) and also the fun things family movie night; evening walks with my daughter. I love them but again, so little of my time is my own. This season of my life reminds me of when they were new babies and I was juggling them and a career - their need feels big to me as I try to blunt the impact of what has torn up our family.
After lots of texts inquiring after my son’s eye and a few calls to speak to the kids I’ve blocked my H on all my portals. It was adding to my stress levels bc I’m so angry and it’s just too much anger and it ends up coming out at my kids or mom. He can reach our daughter directly and he knows I will contact him with anything major ab kids. Next day or two he will notice and find a way to reach out - and I’m planning to tell him I cannot be friendly with someone who is actively cheating on me. Give me a divorce, stop cheating on your wife and start your new life officially, and we can talk about building a friendship, eventually.
I am fairly certain in my heart there is no coming back from this for me, for us, ( like ever) and I want to be set free to rebuild what I can, standing on my own solid ground.
I read this and loved it by Henri Nouwen: "You can tell your story from the place where it no longer dominates you. You can speak about it with a certain distance and see it as the way to your present freedom. ... Your past does not loom over you. It has lost its weight and can be remembered as God's way of making you more compassionate and understanding toward others."
I want my story to lose some of its weight, on me, on my kids. It may require more time and  patience but it’s something I long for.

[Treasur]

That’s a rather nice and thought-provoking quote. Got me thinking this morning about my own path to here tbh, what sticks with you and what doesn’t. Tbh my best sense is that it works a bit like grief….with time the grief shrinks a bit, not sure it ever really goes away completely, but the rest of life expands so the balance feels different. In my case and circumstances, looking back, it took years (the bad news lol) but it also sort of happened naturally without me hunting it down (the good news maybe).

So please keep faith in that but don’t beat yourself up about it if that makes sense. The truth is, no matter how much we don’t want this experience to overpoweringly define us, for a while practically and emotionally it probably does. Bc someone else’s choices and behaviour has effects, doesn’t it? Whether we like it or not. And navigating round those effects, or finding a way to work through them, is just how real life is. I imagine that is even more so if you have children.

Hopefully other parents here will come along to share their experience of how they found ways to balance their own needs with their kids’ understandable anxieties and needs. I do recall reading quite a few stories here, including older kids too, when LBS found that their kids were a bit more anxious or needy or controlling post BD with the LBS. They may not even be conscious of it tbh, but it makes sense doesn’t it? If one parent can just up and leave seemingly out of the blue and no longer recognisable as the ‘old’ mum/dad, why could it not happen again with the remaining parent? Or something else awful? It’s a heavy weight to carry as the remaining parent but I suspect time, consistency and focusing on all the things that create that feeling of safety and predictability do their job. But it must hurt a lot to see those effects as a parent and to run life with some appropriate boundaries.

Imho - and I know others here might see it differently - it’s ok for you to exercise some control over the type and amount of access your h has to YOU.  And to let that evolve as you and your circumstances evolve. It’s healthy to say No thanks to things that are currently harmful to you….and ok too to change your mind about what works and what doesn’t.

 I get a slight flavour, maybe quite wrongly, that some bit of you is intending to have some kind of ‘talk’ when/if he reaches out realising you have blocked him in some ways? You might want to sit with those (understandable) feelings for a beat imho and let yourself figure out what they are really about and what your objectives truly are? Bc this stuff gets a bit messy at this stage for most of us. And a kind of ‘fighting talk’ or ‘blunt truth darts’ lol can be a different way of maintaining some kind of attachment even unconsciously. What I would remind you of is that you do not need his opinion, permission or agreement to set your own boundaries. You do not need to justify, explain or defend them to him or anyone else as long as you have sat with your own reasons for them long enough to feel at peace with those choices yourself. As long, of course, as you meet your legal and custodial obligations….but how you do that is up to you.

How are things progressing on the legal/financial separation front? Has your h signed the papers? What is your legal plan B if he does not? Or your tactical plan for getting what you want and need regardless? Reading between the lines - with a million caveats of course lol - it sounds as if he might want some kind of ‘friendly’ contact that you don’t? But I wonder if that is a lever you can use potentially to get some of what you want, a kind of ‘if you sign the papers and don’t make things more difficult, it will be easier to imagine a more straightforward relationship down the line….if not, then that will make things trickier for us all’ stance (and imho it’s ok to be vague and let him think what he wants, not lie exactly but be vague without actually having to follow through….in my world, my obligations to be open and honest with folks who have lied to me is pretty low 😝)

This is a tough time but it too shall pass. You are smart, resourceful and naturally given to a kind of bouncy joy and creativity, I think. You will not lose those parts of you just bc you are going through a storm; don’t worry about that. Or that your understandable deep anger will always feel how it feels now if that kind of anger is not your normal jam; it will do its’ job and pass through, so don’t worry about that either. There is quite a lot of psychological research that suggests we humans have individual baselines…..big life storms can throw them around for a while, but most of us with time return to that baseline of Me-ness. Certainly that was my experience even if I was a bit surprised by it. My lens is a bit different now but I am inherently every bit as much of a Babe the Sheep Pig kind of character as I always was, for good or ill 😜

[xyzcf]

There is so much to take care of....being a mother is tiring and difficult (and rewarding and awesome), doing it alone is exhausting. And we are already struggling with our own nervous system being in disarray from the trauma that MLC causes in our own physiology.

Seeing our children suffer from the actions of a parent, when there is nothing we can do have the absent parent step up to the plate is heart wrenching. Our children suffer and we suffer because they are confused, hurt and grieving from the loss of their absent parent.

If it is any consolation, I have seen how LBSers end up having very strong relationships with their kids, how their kids turn out ok. We are not perfect and trying to be a perfect parent is an impossible task...but the intention is there...to protect our kids at all cost.

This is the new normal. We did not ask for it, we did not choose it...it happened to us.

I had a thought reading your post. I was at a friend's yesterday and her dining room table was scattered with a 1000 puzzle pieces, tiny pieces that her family were patiently putting together, creating a beautiful picture. Our lives are kind of like this...the pieces are all there and it takes time and patience  and trial and error to bring a small piece together..there is satisfaction when we start to see part of the picture.

All I can think of, and it's really only a bandaid, is to make sure that you have established a routine, your children will eventually be able to trust that you are there when you say you will be and perhaps be able to be more relaxed because of the consistency that you establish in your home.

Our lives are in chaos...creating a routine that can bring some peace into all your lives will help with putting those puzzle pieces together.

[amazinglove]

Had some long interactions with my MLC husband over the past week or so. Just wanted to offer some reflections into the convoluted and hugely selfish thinking.

He says things like:
I cant articulate my thoughts and feelings into words, but I am in pain.
I miss you and the kids so much
I don't want to lose you
I miss spending time with you all
I don't know what I am doing right now
I will never sign divorce papers - you are my wife, now and forever.
I wish none of this had ever happened and we could go back to living our lives with the kids
When i see myself in the mirror I don't recognize myself
You are my best friend.
I want you to love me no matter what
Not speaking to me feels like a punishment
I am not OK!
I feel myself lost.

Bearing in mind that he is living with his mistress, traveling all over the place with her (altho he's with his parents right now) and has no plans to end that relationship and no set date on when he is coming back here to see the kids he misses so much. (he has asked for dates in November which I have told him I will get back to him on -but still that's ages away) he was buzzing the other day showing off to the kids his new motorcycle - altho he's lying for my benefit and saying his dad bought it for him (I mean, if I couldn't handle his new designer wardrobe...)

One thing that stuck out, yesterday he said to me, "I know you hate me right now, and you are totally right but...." and honestly in his delusional mind, it's like i'm merely mad at him after a bad spat or argument, not that he has and is actively betraying our children and our marriage vows. This is way beyond mad or 'angry at him' this is what comes after that, as in, done with him, never want to see him again - but he has minimized it to a huge degree in his mind bc that suits him. I have, at every turn, been clear that I will not tolerate his behavior and I am pursuing a divorce with or without him. I care about him, I care about what happens to him but I am not willing to remain his wife and it is too late to save our marriage. he has been seeing her for one year in October.  After we are divorced we can work on a friendship but I will never, ever be in contact or friends with an errant husband who is sleeping with another woman. Who WOULD be friends with that person?

One note. I have not spoken to him or seen him in nearly 2 months. It has been text only and related to our children. Seeing him on the phone ydy was jarring because he looks so utterly miserable, wretched and broken. Swollen face, bloodshot, sad eyes - he cried the entire phone call - esp when I told him our 11 year old has been saying 'I hate my father' (she refuses to speak to him on the phone and I am not encouraging that, but I am also not forcing her to do it). I realize that the tears are all for himself -but i will say this - this man is in chains. If you were ever going to visualize someone in bondage to something dark -it is this man. This formerly strong, really strong, clear eyed, good hearted person is like a broken, angry, mean, selfish being.  I don't know how to explain exactly what I felt, but it was def jarring. Now of course, I realize that he has willingly put himself in this prison, it is of his own making - he is jetting back to her in Moscow and then they are off to Barcelona etc etc and he will keep running, and she will buy him more things and it will keep him buzzing - but my gosh it is visbly taking a toll on this man.

I am a Christian and I certainly realize that is not the perspective or belief system of everyone in this wonderful group of wise people, and I value all thoughts and opinions - but speaking as one, I have to say that if you strive to live your life in lightness and love, are connected to a Higher Power and if you believe in darkness and evil, you really can see it playing out in this MLC situation. It feels really sprit-based or almost like he's sold his soul, sold out everything that was good in his life - in his case for ego, for money and sex - and the ugliness of that just comes off of him in waves.

It was good for me to see what a mess he is - in many ways it helped me because I really do see that the man I love is not in that body and whatever is going on in there, it's better it happens from a distance while I keep myself and my kids out of that storm. 

[MadLuv]

I understand completely as my XH also showed me all his sides and sometimes I felt crazy because he was so good at concealing it to others, but I do realize also now that it kept me tethered to him and that really in the end did not help him. I think your firm stance is the correct way to handle it. He has to get to a place where he needs to dig himself out. All those things he said to you also I can check many off on things my XH said. I do believe that they cant find their way and it’s harder to be around us than someone new. My XH said, anyone I have known I have a hard time being around at all. Even work. Sometimes I have to excuse myself and just go cry. I dont know who I am anymore.

Keep your strong self moving forward. I hope he finds his way.

[Treasur]

I’m glad that your conclusion was that, whatever is going on with him, safeguarding you and your kids from the effects of it as much as you can is the only sensible path. I remember at one point when my former h was doing a lot of confused wailing about his lot with pleas for me ‘not to give up on him’ (and before he vanished into his new life with ow) a friend of mine said that it reminded her of dealing with an alcoholic. (From her own experience some decades earlier with her own husband - remarkably he and they survived it, he got sober, but it wrecked their lives, business and finances at the time) She said she still remembered the feeling of helplessness and anger and sadness all mixed up together when they had these kinds of conversations even looking back thirty years later.

She was the person who shared The Narcissist’s Prayer with me as a way of helping me understand the mindset I was dealing with….and who lovingly challenged me about the reality of what I could influence and not.

The Narcissist's Prayer

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.

I suspect you can see much of his bit of that conversation mirrored in this. And, unless you just didn’t mention it, not much of the conversation, if any, was about you or your children’s’ needs, wants or feelings.

I’m not a fan as you probably know of rushing to label people. And I don’t think you have to even hate people who act in these ways, even when they have caused you huge damage, well once your own internal dust settles a bit lol. But I think it is helpful to be as clear-eyed as you can be about the current apparent reality of what one is dealing with. It may not always be so, but if it quacks like a duck today, you deal with it like a duck. If that changes in future, cautiously, you can change your approach accordingly.

For reasons that are beyond my ability to précis, these MLC-type spouses do seem to share some common characteristics once the lid blows off. A lens that is overly fixated on themselves. A desire to be understood and supported that is a bit of a one way street. Olympic level DARVO skills. Feelings as facts. Highly emotionally reactive. Inconsistent follow through from words to actions. Avoidant. Poor self-regulation. Teenage-like immaturity. A weird kind of codependency with their spouse that comes out as sadz or rage usually, or indeed is transferred to their new ‘twu lurve’, but seems unable to know where they end and others begin.

How can that not be a sad thing to witness in someone you care about? How can their refusal to stop causing damage and inconsistent actions not cause you to feel angry and frustrated? How can anyone rescue or protect someone from the pretty predictable effects of their own chosen actions? And how can all of that not create some not so pretty and rather confusing and mixed emotions in us?

Listening to my friend talk about her experience when her h was drinking - and it was a remarkably generous gift that she did bc it was not easy for her to do so, to revisit the worst time of her life - she sounded as if the path forward for her was much the same as most of us experience here. She stood, trying to keep their business, their home and their young children afloat single-handed for a few years while he crashed around and burned pretty much everything to the ground. She kept trying to fix it/him and support him and encourage him…..until she reached her own point of ‘enough’. Which rather surprised both him and her from the sound of it. She was forced into selling the remnants of their once very successful business and their big swanky house to avoid bankruptcy, filed for divorce and sole custody, and stopped talking to him.

It was a very vivid memory for her….visiting him in a rehab place and telling him that this was what she was doing next. I think we all have our own ‘enough’ lines and we know when we hit them. For her, it was getting a call from her girl’s boarding school - bc she had been forced by circumstance to send her girls away to school while she tried to keep the business afloat and believed that would protect them from the crazy chaos - anyway, the call was that her oldest girl, then about 9 I think, had started cutting and tried to kill herself. That was my friend’s line in the sand. The point where she said she really accepted in her bones the limitations of what she could do about her h and the real need to change how she was dealing with it. Awful, right? Just awful. Interestingly - and perhaps unsurprisingly - her h got sober about a year later as I recall. She said that it was as if he didn’t believe her, didn’t believe that she would do what she said she would do and leave him to deal with his own mess. And just as for most of us, it all left a scar….nothing could be entirely the same after it.

We knew them as a couple and a family decades after all of this. We knew them for about 10 years, and only knew him sober. We never knew the history of it until she shared it with me post-BD. He was not a bad person, we liked him and her both. Was their repaired marriage perfect? Probably not, but it seemed pretty good from what I could see. He was given to a kind of introverted depression where he’d disappear a bit for short periods, and then medicate seemingly with a new project….building a house or taking up sailing or renovating a mobile home or a trip somewhere. She continued to be the primary breadwinner and probably over-functioned a bit occasionally as the emotional core of their family. The girls had a few blips as young adults….one struggled with anorexia for a few years and drank a bit too much, but recovered; the other struggled academically and socially as a teenager, probably a bit given to depression, but blossomed in her early 20s once she found a career path that suited her. Today, looking from the outside, they look like a solid successful family and a good marital partnership that mostly works for them. But 30 odd years ago, that wasn’t how it was. And none of today would have been possible if Tim had not stopped drinking and changed a lot of his lens on life. And stuck with it. I rather admire him for that tbh…I admire them both. But it could have easily led to a different path forward for all of them, maybe better, maybe worse, but definitely different.

But the turning point, listening to my dear friend, was her reaching her own ‘enough’ line where she could see in big flashing letters the real limit of what she could do about her h’s alcoholism and all that came from it. Both of them were rather courageous I think….but it started with her courageously deciding to step onto a different path and leave him behind to figure out what to do with his own. They couldn’t meet in the middle until they had both created some kind of middle to meet in if that makes sense.

I was/am very grateful that my friend shared that part of her story with me bc it helped me to be a bit more realistic about my own limitations. And to call a duck a duck, at least in my own head. Imho life - and crises - are in reality a series of small left or right hand turns that unfold a path that we can’t always see at the time. And they are not always directly in our hands alone, are they? Easier to see looking backwards perhaps. The best that any of us can probably do is create a direction of travel that focuses on what matters most to us and is in accord with who we want to be as a human. But we can’t create that for someone else or tidy up their path for them, can we? Much as we sometimes might wish we could lol.

You do you, my friend, the best you are able. And trust your own instincts about your own path forward. Just as you are doing. Let your h - or xh if that is what he becomes - figure out his own path forward for himself. And let time and events tell if those paths intersect again in a way that feels healthy and ok. If the duck stops quacking like the Narcissist’s Prayer, you’ll know  …..if the duck keeps sounding like a duck, it’s ok too to decide that there’s not much you can usefully do with the quacking 

[UrsaMajor]

So you got to see the Bug in the Edgar suit (Sorry/not sorry for the Men in Black Reference)...



Sounds to me like MLCH is having waves of sadz but isn't willing to actually DO anything about it. .... This is where the "Believe NONE of what the MLC'er say and only about 50% of what you see them CONSISTENTLY doing. A one-off behaviour is just that - a one-off, a flash in the pan.... Consistency is the key.... Everything else is just

and designed primarily to make the MLC'er feel better about themselves and their actions (without them accepting ANY responsibility or accountability for their actions)

[amazinglove]

As I sit still here in my 'acceptance' phase - it occurred to me this week that I feel as if I am carrying around a heavy backpack full of rocks all day, every day. It starts at 530am when I am awoken with stressful, painful memories or thoughts, or even remembering dreams of him that are upsetting, and it goes on all day until I eventually try to sleep at night. This kind of grief is ever present and it's heavy and it weighs me down and keeps me from feeling joy.

i am determined to take a rock or two out of this thing and as I was lying in bed this morning thinking about the first one to try and remove- I saw a big boulder and the words that came into my head were 'self pity.' --which surprised me tbh bc I don't think of myself as self-pitying. But when i took an unflinching look at it,  I could see it was true.  So I mentally imagined myself taking a rock out a backpack and kind of listed the ways I am feeling sorry for myself for all the many responsibilities I have, the injustice of this all, the extra burden on me as a parent etc etc and I asked myself (or God if you believe in Him)  how do I do this? And the word that came into my mind was 'gratitude'. So that is my focus right now. 

Someone wiser than me on here wrote me that she found comfort in the idea that her two decade relationship with her H was the most impactful relationship he will ever have - which is completely true and I loved that wisdom.  As I read her words, I looked over at my sleeping 7 year old, and  I thought to myself, I got the best OF him (with my gorgeous kids) and I got the best FROM him that anyone will ever get. The man he was with me is the absolute best version of himself and it may not even be a person he ever is able to become again (altho I hope my children's sake he does). But that I had that gift is something to feel good about. It is NOT nothing. He gave me the best of himself for 11 of our 13 years together. And I had, for more than a decade the kind of marriage I guess everyone dreams of having - mutually loving and honest and built on respect, trust and affection/attraction. I am forever grateful for that too.

I got the 'legal separation' docs amended to 'divorce' docs today. I am going to attempt to serve him overseas and not wait until he is back here early December. I did it because i want this done and I don't want to have to chase him down again in the future to get him to sign. I am fairly sure he will just ignore these docs, but the clock is then ticking for an uncontested divorce. Altho I still deeply feel for him and love him, (the man I knew, not the man he is now) and my kids miss him desperately, I have come to the painful conclusion, (and I realize that this is a personal decision and no judgement if yours is not the same) that as a matter of standing up for what is right, I need to say that this is not ok. I do believe he is mentally suffering - you just have to look at him to see it-  he looks 10 years older and miserable - and I have compassion for that, I do - but I will divorce this man because of the way he dishonors our marriage.  Who knows - maybe someday we will find each other again - but if he came back to me even right now, i know I would not be able to live as the wife of this messed up, selfish version of him. Much has to happen. A miracle maybe.

In the meantime, I am looking for ways to find HOPE in things completely unconnected to my marital state, and I will keep trying to lift my heavy burden, one rock at a time.

[Biscuit]

AL,

Great post…. Good for you on all counts.
Lots of beautiful thoughts expressed in a very heartfelt and compassionate way.

B x

[FaithWalker]

Loved your last post AL.  I started keeping a Gratitude Journal and it was very helpful for me in the aftermath of MLC and Divorce.

[amazinglove]

I had to go to LA tonight for work. I was in the Hollywood office all day and tomo at a conference with a client. I'm currently on the 12th floor in a hotel all on my own. It's weird being here. Normally i would welcome being alone, in nice linens, with room service and solitude - as a busy mom I used to dream of this! But what's weird is that since my H walked out on me and the kids, I just want to be in my home, with my kids, surrounded by the familiar. As someone who spent the vast majority of my adult life as a single person, who traveled the world and moved overseas three times on my own, it's crazy to me that I have lost my confidence to this degree. Is this something to do with PTSD? Is this connected to BD? Have I completely lost myself? I was still independent while married, but I guess I got used to having 'a person', someone who I checked in with, who cared where I was and knew what was going on. I called my sister tonight and she said, you have me, and at least you still have mom, a lot of my friends' parents have died and if they're single it's even harder".

It feels like I am going to have to grow back the parts of myself that I gave to him, to our marriage, to our union. I don't think I feel whole on my own anymore. I lost my edges. It occurs to me that he never lost this by the way. He's never been without it. He just took it from me and gave it to someone else. That is a hard truth.

Yesterday my H (currently living with his AP somewhere in Europe)  sent me a PM/FB memory from that date 9 years ago, it was the two of us on a motorbike with the caption I had written at the time 'ride or die, now and forever.' I recognize that he does this to try and keep me on some kind of hook, and it's manipulative I get that - unfortunately it's also v effective. I just replied, "we were happy", and he 'hearted' it. Pathetic I know. I should have written all kinds of angry things - how DARE you send this to me while you are with someone else?, in someone else's bed!, it's manipulative and gross,!  But i didn't.

Today my D told me that the girl she'd confided in at school about our situation had told the entire class that my D's parents were getting divorced. She was upset that she'd betrayed her trust and was unprepared to discuss this with so many people. I cried a bit after we got off the phone - because she deserves so much better. i worked so hard to make sure she never had parents who divorced. I never wanted to be 'that' family. My marriage,and keeping it solid , healthy and happy, was a huge priority in my life. My faith, my beliefs, it was all tied up in taking care of my marriage and keeping my family together. And it failed. He self -destructed, he failed yes, but at some level it feels like my failure too. WE failed her. 

As i grapple with my new normal - being here on my own away from home shines a spotlight on where I am on this journey. It's uncomfortable. And I'm starting to see the outline and feeling the gaps between where I am now, and where I want to be.

[Evermore]

I was the same after BD, wanting to be 'surrounded by the familiar', where before I was very independent and happily travelled allover by myself. I don't think it's a loss of confidence (well it wasn't for me anyway). I don't think it's surprising that the loss of so much of the other 'familiar' stuff in our lives switches on our hyper-vigilant lizard brain and makes us cling to 'what we have left' that is still familiar. Surrounding myself with familiar things helped very much to calm my nervous system. While I was in it, could see it, could touch it, my familiar places/things were still safely there (not 'poof, gone!' like so much else that was previously my life).

Over time you will feel whole again on your own. You will find your edges again. I did. And I really didn't FEEL like I ever would again (even while my logical/resilient brain knew eventually I'd be just fine). But I did. It took what felt like forever. But if anything I'm now stronger and feel more whole than I ever did before. Just keep doing what you're doing AL, you are doing wonderfully.

As for the correspondence with your H, be kind to the part of yourself that wants it, responded in kind and didn't call him out. That's the grieving part of you that misses what was. Give that part a hug and hold her hand. Then get on with building your new life. You will gradually fill in the gaps between where you are now and where you want to be. It all just takes time! 

[Reinventing]

I was the same after BD, wanting to be 'surrounded by the familiar', where before I was very independent and happily travelled allover by myself. I don't think it's a loss of confidence (well it wasn't for me anyway).

Same here, I was nodding my head in agreement when reading amazinglove's description. And it went back to normal after some time.

[KayDee]

I completely connect with everything you are saying here AL. And often it's those small things - like texting someone when you've landed safely at your destination, for instance, that invisible cord of care between you and another. I too felt untethered. And weirdly, even more of a stranger in town when I went somewhere new. Yes, it is a real blessing that family and friends are there, like a kinda interwoven, combined sheet of love (bad metaphor  ) but it is very different to having that bond with a life partner. I am eternally grateful to my 'sheet', as I know some people don't have that. I think that wanting to keep things 'small', be among those you trust and love, be in a safe and known space, must be pretty normal as part of the healing place where we grieve and eventually grow. A good friend of mine, who endured a significant loss around 5 years ago, did exactly this. She focused on her kids, she performed her job, she kept things going, but kept them small and local. She described it as being fallow. She looks back at that time as hard but somehow necessary. She is now in a new, and rewarding, phase of her life.

It's a really interesting statement you make about your H, that he never lost his edges. I found myself thinking 'did he ever have them'? For many, this crisis seems to be one of identity, stemming from a weak sense of self. For whatever reason, they lose touch with who they think they are. Maybe that is the (successful) journey of the MLCr - to eventually grow some edges.

So sorry that your D has had her trust broken. Kids can be cruel, they don't understand consequences and do things to look cool or be popular. I imagine we all remember that pain from school days. From what you write, she is an emotionally intelligent girl, so it bodes well for her being able to work through this. Hopefully some of her other friends will rally and take her aloft for while....

[Treasur]

Ditto. You described that feeling of missing edges very well.
I remember a work trip when I got delayed getting back my train trouble, and I sobbed like a child when I suddenly realised that no-one needed me to call and tell them I was ok. I’d always teased both my mum and my husband about their requests for me to check in before, but now no one knew and no one cared. It was a horrible feeling and I felt a bit silly bc it unravelled me so.

I don’t think it’s a PTSD thing, but it’s a safety thing, that need for the tangible, small and familiar. It’s understandable and normal imho bc the world feels so much more jagged than before.

I am so sorry too that your D experienced her own betrayal of trust with that school friend and how you must have felt about it too. Sadly most of us here know that those small everyday betrayals have sharper edges when we are more vulnerable bc of a big one. We learn - as your daughter will - to pick out tribes and let the others go. But I’m sorry.

And you are right in your assessment of his msg and others are right about being kind to yourself about how you felt. In time, I promise, it will get easier to not be triggered into a response and to shrug your shoulders then go about your day. It’s just right now you are probably one foot in the old life and one foot in the new life, aren’t you? It’s a kind of purgatory sometimes but you won’t live there, just pass through.

I suspect that for most of us we do have to regrow some of our parts - and it does happen with time - but that life generally feels a bit different for a while. Sometimes in ways which can be surprising tbh and lead us to different paths. Maybe we are just like soft-shelled crabs for a little while and need a little secure pool until our new shells harden off a bit….

Kaydee’s post reminded me of a book that helped me in my fallow time called Wintering (I think) - it helped me reframe how I saw it from a negative failing thing to a more constructive healing thing. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wintering-learned-flourish-became-frozen/dp/1846045983

[Trustandlove]

Hi, AL,

Just nodding along.  Even though I am years and years into this, I completely get what you say.  It took me many years to get to the point of not being drawn in by messages like that.

I think you are doing brilliantly -- saying that this is a horrible process is a huge understatement, and a huge misdescription, actually.  I was always glad for this community because people here get it, many, even those close to us who want to, really don't.  So we stop talking about it, but I find that it's still there, underlying, even a long time later.   I wish it were something that just happened, and could recede into the distant past, but with children there is always something that comes up.

Just the other week someone close to me told me that they had seen my MLCer; and said that they wouldn't have recognised him if it weren't for the fact that he was with someone they knew.  They also think that he has screwed up his life, and say that they don't understand, but even this person, someone very close to me who has been there for me as a staunch supporter the whole time, somehow thinks that surely this can't be.  That surely he doesn't mean to not care about his children, etc.  And they would take any form of contact from him as something positive and to be encouraged, rather than seeing it as him grasping for an anchor if other things in his life aren't going well.  (they had known him as a teenager, so before I met him)

That actually made me feel a bit alone again, even after many years -- realising that as much as I do have wonderful people close to me, it's not quite the same as having "your person".

It wasn't "triggering" per se, just a reminder that this is the case. 

But to end on a more positive note, there is so much in my life now that is good, that I have built myself, and I continue to do so.

x

[UrsaMajor]

Add me to the "Been there, felt that, got the T-Shirt" crew. Even though I didn't move all that far away, I recall one of the first nights in my new apartment alone - I was SO tired that I had fallen asleep sitting in a chair in the living room. I jolted awake and it took me a good 2-3 minutes before I could actual figure out where the Hades I was and that everything was OK.

I also used to travel for work often (day trips - first plane out and last one back) but, ironically, MLCxW wasn't all that concerned if I got delayed and didn't want me to call if it meant she'd have to wake up to answer her phone.....

Nevertheless, it was still disorienting for a while to know that there wouldn't be anyone "at home" when I got back because there was no communal "at home" anymore.... At least though my dog was always happy to see me..... <snort>

[WHY]

Yesterday my H (currently living with his AP somewhere in Europe)  sent me a PM/FB memory from that date 9 years ago, it was the two of us on a motorbike with the caption I had written at the time 'ride or die, now and forever.' I recognize that he does this to try and keep me on some kind of hook, and it's manipulative I get that - unfortunately it's also v effective. I just replied, "we were happy", and he 'hearted' it. Pathetic I know. I should have written all kinds of angry things - how DARE you send this to me while you are with someone else?, in someone else's bed!, it's manipulative and gross,!  But i didn't.

This really triggers me because their cruelty knows no end...

But this may help you.  Having been through this for 2.5 years now, I've genuinely come to understand that their behaviors have nothing to do with you.  You try look at this action and rationalize or understand it, but you're looking at it from a perspective that includes you, and it has nothing to do with you (hard to believe when he's torturing you but its true). 

To the MLCer, nothing else matters in the world except them.  So in that moment, perhaps he was feeling guilt he needed to alleviate, or needed validation for the person he thinks he was, or needed comfort to know you are there when he says you should be, or that someone still cares for him which helps his self esteem etc.  Who the hell knows. 

It's all about them and the actions they pursue to prop up their self esteem. 

This has been my secret to unlocking & understanding why they do what they do.

The best thing I did was to totally disconnect from the crazy train and not react to these types of things.  I essentially cut off the supply that was being used to feed my MLCers self esteem.  It took about ~6 months, but eventually she gave up on me as her source of supply, and the torture went waaaay down.   

I would essentially not react to these things in the future, which means to not respond.

[OffRoad]

So many of us nodding along. Your descriptions are so like my own feelings.

What KayDee said about wondering if your h ever had his own edges.  Likely not since imo he WAS using your edges. In my own retrospect I found my xh had mostly mirrored me. I was what he wanted to be, but could not on his own. For a long while that seemed to have worked. I gave support and kindness and got the same in return. Until I didn't. And because I also wanted my marriage to work, I gave and gave, not even realizing how lopsided it eventually became, while he took all that I had and withheld all that he had.

I am 9 years on. It was 2 years to feel almost normal, 3.5 to feel like myself. You will get there, be kind to yourself in the meantime. You did not fail. One person cannot make a marriage work.

For your kids, all you can do is be there for them. Be the sane parent. Mine were 16 and 18 at the time, and it's been a road for all of us. My D is 28 and gets it now, has for about four years. My S is 25 and  starting to see the truth. Be there for them, don't let them play you, be the stable one.

You are understandably off kilter. This is a major life change. 

[amazinglove]

Today my D 11 discovered her dad has a gf. It was so painful to tell her and also to see her face. I will never forget it unfortunately.
We had called her cousin, my nephew, who has gone off to college and is lonely at the weekends and she asked him all of a sudden- where is my father? And he said I don’t know somewhere in Moscow prob, I heard the call and heard her incredulity and hurt. After i asked her is there anything you want to ask me? And she said what is daddy doing in Moscow? And I said he has a gf. I stuck to the bare facts and tried to reassure her that he loves her v much: it was brutal.
She then immediately blocked him on her phone. I texted him to say that she knows and how it happened and he called me - black eyed and furious. I was trying to destroy his relationship with them and she was too young to know this detail.
The thing is when I called him, he was all dressed up, in the car clearly having come back from a nice dinner.  She was in the car obvs but off camera. He is living his best life while i handle the world here. And I think he thought he could do this with my daughter not being the wiser, ever. I said to him did you expect this to be a secret forever? It’s been a year!
I am so sad and hurt for my kid. I think this will push him to divorce me faster tho, because there is less to come back for in his mind. She already won’t speak to him.
I hope I handled it ok. I did my best. This whole thing is a nightmare! As awful as it is, part of me is relieved that the truth is out- is that selfish?

[OffRoad]

Imo, your D deserved to know. Kids aren't stupid and when they suspect something and no one tells them the truth, it's like gaslighting. That you are relieved just shows you don't like lying to your D and that is never selfish.

Now comes the hard part. Her figuring out if she wants a relationship with her dad or not.

[Treasur]

he called me - black eyed and furious. I was trying to destroy his relationship with them and she was too young to know this detail.

Said the man in Moscow…..

Bc living thousands of miles away doesn’t change your relationship with your children.
And bc lying and gaslighting is how you show love and care as a parent.
And bc the problem is not what you do, it’s others’ reactions to what you do and you’re entitled to have everyone lie on your behalf too
Bc better by far for your kids to not understand why you left and where you actually are, right, than to know the basic facts?
 

It’s easy for us oldsters to see the terrible manipulation in this.
His fury was about being exposed and having to deal with the reality of the truth. Not about you, not about his daughter, not even about his role as a parent. I don’t know if I would have texted him tbh - was it some kind of knee jerk co-parent reaction? - but I certainly wouldn’t have taken his call. Bc, as you will see with time, his reaction was predictable and added nothing useful to the real priority.

Which is your girl.
And I guess your boy too now that the cat (or Moscow Mule) is out of the bag…..

I am very sorry that events forced you to have to tell her the basic facts and to watch her be shocked and hurt by that. I can’t imagine how painful that was as a mother. But I commend you as a parent, that your immediate reaction was to love and respect her enough to not lie to her or gaslight her that what she heard wasn’t what she heard. Imho as OR says, that matters. The basic truth is part of how we feel safe in the world as small humans (and big ones lol) and how we feel trusted and respected to have our own valid feelings about it. It’s the solid ground under our metaphorical feet, isn’t it? Even in a swamp.

So, no, imho it isn’t selfish.
The universe has a funny way sometimes of unfolding the truth of things.
And tbh your daughter asked her cousin bc she instinctively felt she didn’t know something that her cousin might know….she just didn’t know what the missing jigsaw piece was.
But it’s not your jigsaw piece and you’re not required to lie to your children bc your h lied to you and lies to them bc if makes his life easier. Truly you are not. After all, if he’s  doing nothing wrong, why does anyone need to lie, right? Without adult embroidery of course….but the bare facts of reality….he has a gf, he’s in Moscow with that gf. Not looking after parents, or working away, or on some mysterious mission. He left to live a different life with someone else some place else. That’s the bare truth of it as far as you know.
And there’s a lot of life truth in the premise that, painful as it can be, the truth can set us free a bit.

I can understand too your desire to reassure your kids that their father loves them.
But I’d try gently to avoid inadvertently giving the message that this is how people behave when they really love you. Bc that’s pretty confusing, isn’t it? I hope other LBS parents can share words and tactics they used bc others have been in your shoes and survived it.

Love doesn’t normally look like lies and thousands of miles away, does it? That’s part of the picture for your kids to work out for themselves and you don’t know yet where each of them will go with that. I might be tempted to try and find some words that don’t put you in the position of being his translator, or trying to make the reality more normal and ok than it feels and is. Bc it’s not your job to speak for him as an adult or even as a parent…that’s inherently part of the change when one parent leaves, isn’t it? You become parallel parents more than co-parents in reality. To say ‘I don’t know, you’d have to ask dad to explain that’ or ‘I know that dad would say that he loves you very much’. Or sometimes just ‘I don’t know….but I am here and I love you beyond words and I’m not going anywhere’. Bc that’s the truth, isn’t it?

The flavour I have of your husband is that he will probably try to unroll the same play with your daughter that he did with you….he’ll want her pity, support and understanding, he’ll blame you, and he’ll lie as much as he thinks he can get away with. It will be more about what he needs than about what your girl needs most probably. Whatever his other reasons, he’s not a courageous honest man when life gets tough, is he? His version of digging deep is a bit shallow, isn’t it….not much there, there?

I am so sorry. Tough times in front of you. But you’ll get through it together as a family minus him, I have no doubt. You are enough, my friend, more than enough. And so are your kids and the rest of your family will support you I have no doubt.

The bit you wrote that surprised me (bc nothing else did bc it is so textbook for these a$$hats grrrr) is your comment about divorce. No criticism or judgement here, but it surprised me, given that you have drawn up legal papers he is refusing to sign the last I recall. Worth reflecting perhaps on what that tells you about where your head and heart currently are maybe as opposed to where you think they are or want them to be? Idk. But from the cheap seats, like that old movie quote, if your h’s reaction to the truth coming out is to push for divorce bc he can’t handle the truth, as opposed say to jumping on a plane in order to sit down with his kids and help them understand what’s going on better and that they are important to him, would that not mean that any future relationship with him could only be built on lies? That collective self gaslighting would be the ticket to a restored family unit where everyone has to ignore the big fat elephant in the corner of the room? And you don’t sound like the kind of person who would find that a great way to live. Jmo.

But please don’t for a moment buy his BS that the problem is not what he’s done but your failure to lie on his behalf or your kids’ reactions to the truth of what he’s doing and the lies he has told them and others.
Bc that really is gaslighting 101 and you’re too smart and sane to go along with that. Xxx

[amazinglove]

Thank you both for your much valued replies.
In the “seriously how can this be for real” category - we had some necessary exchanges night before last and he asked me why I was awake in the middle of the night. And he said “take care of yourself please. I need it”
Not - take care of yourself our kids need you or take care of yourself because you are handling so much, or because you are awesome or because I care about what happens to you - but because “I need it”
He needs me alive to take care of everything. As for me - His needs factor into nothing at the moment.
But I have to say, even knowing all I know, it was a WTF moment.

[FrenchHusband]

Thank you both for your much valued replies.
In the “seriously how can this be for real” category - we had some necessary exchanges night before last and he asked me why I was awake in the middle of the night. And he said “take care of yourself please. I need it”
Not - take care of yourself our kids need you or take care of yourself because you are handling so much, or because you are awesome or because I care about what happens to you - but because “I need it”
He needs me alive to take care of everything. As for me - His needs factor into nothing at the moment.
But I have to say, even knowing all I know, it was a WTF moment.

Hi AL, regarding the "needs" of your H, I have a personal interpretation that I would like to write here : your H is likely used to sleepless nights and it is now his common MLC life. So he may see your awakening in the middle of the night as a sign you may be also in MLC ? Your H knows deeply inside that he is broken and that his life is chaotic, so it might be a shock to him if you are also in crisis. Like a teenager in crisis can have a crisis when at least one parent is stable enough. A teenager with both parents in MLC has not the luxury to have a teenager crisis (and that is IMO not a good thing, the crisis has to explode sooner rather than later)

So the real message for you is that your H needs you to take care of everything while he continues his crisis. Selfish, isn't it ? Yes a WTF moment and a WTF statement.

Good news for you is that you see it more and more clearly.

[xyzcf]

My therapist said this to me recently "confused people confuse people"...I have heard "hurt people hurt people" but never this way of expressing in so few words how dead on this is...."confused people confuse people".

She also stated that confusion is a type of torture..another heavy statement for me to just sit with.

Of course Ursa has expressed pretty well the same thing...trying to understand a MLCer is liking trying to taste the color green.

And he said “take care of yourself please. I need it”
Not - take care of yourself our kids need you or take care of yourself because you are handling so much, or because you are awesome or because I care about what happens to you - but because “I need it”
He needs me alive to take care of everything.

You do not really know at all what he meant by saying that. There are hundreds of interpretations but my guess is in his messed up and confused state, he loves you, not the OW and fancy lifestyle and if anything were to happen to you, it would crush him.

My 2 cents worth.

[amazinglove]

Thank you FH for reminding me that I am better than I used to be - at spotting and handling this. And xyz - how I wish that were true! But given that every single action and word from him has pointed to entirely self-focused (indeed I would say self 'obsessed') thinking, I am certain that he meant, I need you to be ok because I cannot do what you are doing and do not want to.
He knows his beloved 11 year old D is devastated about finding out his affair - ie his moral failure as a man  - and he has not reached out to ask how she is doing since. Not once. I told him if he is coming early Nov to come for Halloween as the kids want their dad walking them around the neighborhood (like the other kids, and he missed last year) and he said only 'i will try'. Even our kids don't make much of an impact.
Here's what I'm coming around to - these MLC'ers do not love anyone. He does not love me, he does not love his AP, he does not love his sister, he does not even actively love his kids (he feels sad and misses them/pride when he sees photos -that's it). He doesn't love himself either. He hates himself. He is incapable of love at the moment.
Randomly, the other day I had posted a cute pic of my son on FB - who is, objectively, an absolutely gorgeous boy - and my H posted this ridiculous GIF or Emoji of like hearts falling onto this little pig and it said 'my love, and you " like his love was like pouring out or whatever. It was insane because this man, who formerly refused to be on FB, would never have sent such a weird, feminine, sappy thing. His mother posted one underneath and it made me smile bc we always both found them so annoying. It was so contrary to his entire personality that even a couple of people I am friends with were like WTF was that? It's weird things like that that underscore to me how insane and totally diff he is now.

[Flummoxed]

Hi amazinglove, I think you may be right. However, at the end of the day, I agree that trying to understand it will just end up driving us crazy. I also don’t think they are capable, although my heart wishes that wasn’t true. They do not love themselves and you cannot pour from an empty cup. You sure can use it as a weapon though.

“Confused people confuse people” makes so much sense- it would explain all the WTF moments, that’s for sure.

I also just wanted to say thank you for sharing your journey and for sharing the radical acceptance term. We learn a lot from each other through this forum and this crazy rollercoaster of MLC and I wish you and your family the very best. You're doing brilliantly- you’ve got this.

[beyondblessed]

AL, I have a slightly different take on him needing you to take care of yourself.  It is possible he needs you to be ok because if you are fine and still functioning as normal,  then maybe, just maybe, what he's doing now isn't "so bad", and, therefore, he has not really done anything wrong?  Yes,  absolutely still all about him, either way.  And, yes, he does not love himself, so he cannot love anyone else, either. 

[Treasur]

I must admit that this was my take too. That he just doesn’t want anything that makes him feel ‘bad’ or ‘responsible’. Still not about you or the kids though, just word salad me me blah 😕 very textbook

[MadLuv]

Amazing Love- my xh at one point said, I dont feel love for you, I dont feel love for our kids. I’m the worst person I know. After he left and months had gone by I can remember a conversation on finding out some deceit of his and he frantically said, You don’t care how this affects me!!! I was so taken a back that some how my oain was my fault and calling him out was cruel of ME!!!

They truly are so lost that they are looking at any way to release it. I also believe that he needs you all to be ok, because he can’t take any more fault or guilt. If everyone can just be OK, then he can compartmentalize the damage done.

I do believe they are in there somewhere, but depending on the MLCer and there core and damage will give some insight if they will ever truly face everything.  They do know what they are doing and most ruminate on it all at some point, but they are so confused and damaged that they cant sort it out.

This is why now I truly see why you have to just let them be. Let them have that space to clear their own heads, because there is soooooo much going on in there and until they can calm their own brains of their own confusion there is no way for them to get to any rational thinking. Thats how I see it now almost 4 years in from
BD2.

[Trustandlove]

Again, just nodding along.  My former H also kept on saying "what about ME?" a lot -- it just made my jaw drop.  I once asked him if what he wanted was more important than what anyone else wanted, and he said yes. 

One of the things he also said regarding the children was "when do I get them" -- this wasn't about any custody dispute, he made it clear that he wanted me to raise them, it was more about when he could show them off or something.  My standard response was "it's not about you getting them, it's about them getting YOU".  He absolutely did not understand at all, and from what I can tell, still doesn't. 

He did say one other thing in the first years --  "you have to let me go".  I was confused, because it wasn't up to me, and I told him so, but looking back he was looking for some kind of permission from me, which of course I refused to give.  Once I remember saying "But you're gone!"  He wanted me to sort everything out, to give him the "get out of jail free" card.

I also know that he felt/(feels?) a lot of guilt, but doesn't do anything more about it.  Years ago he used to tell me that he felt guilty, I asked for what, he said "for everything".  But it stopped there, I didn't absolve him, and he didn't do anything more about it.  Once I was no longer in touch with him at all he has a few times said this to at least 2 of our children; my daughter said that she had told him "so fix it", and he had asked "how?".  Again, nothing further.  More recently the one son that still sees him occasionally also reported that former H said that he felt guilty, but again, just couldn't take responsibility and try to change things.  He still tries to "guilt" our children into seeing him, but always, always his own life/schedule/whatever comes first.  That same son recently told him that he had never put them (my children) first, there was no response. 

Way back when, near the beginning, my daughter, then 10 years old, tried to ask him why he wasn't at home with us, his response was that "I have a new life now".  That hit her like a gut punch.  He had also said things like "they have the opportunity to participate in another life", meaning again that it was all about him, they could be there if they wanted to. 

There have been a few points along the way where I started to feel like he was trying to participate in their lives, rather than the other way round, but unfortunately that never lasted.  At the time I of course took it for all it was worth, and even allowed myself some hope, but that wasn't to be. 

They do know what they are doing and most ruminate on it all at some point, but they are so confused and damaged that they cant sort it out.

So in my experience that is the case.  In my case my former H just keeps jumping from OW to OW, they can't even be called that any more.  He also jumps from job to job, we have no idea what he does any more, but when he left he had a successful career, that also is long gone. 

So, after all that rambling, I think you are handling it beautifully, even if it doesn't feel that way.  One of the worst things is what it does to our children, learning to tell them the truth age-appropriately was a learning curve for me.  At the beginning I did say that I'm sure Dad loves you, after a while I had to start saying that how he was behaving just wasn't right.  That I had no idea what was going on with him, but that we were the family, that we were together and stable.  Later I had to say that he had stopped paying anything, and this is what it meant for us, and so on and so on....    not pretty. 

It probably says something about me that I'm still reading here, and that I find myself drawn to respond like this at times.  It's from a very different vantage point, however -- my now adult children and I are a very strong unit.

Keep going -- I used to curl up in a ball, I called it "going into my bubble", to calm the noise in my head, it helped me see clearly in all the confusion, and that helped me to keep putting one foot in front of the other and stand my ground, which was invaluable.

x

[Dragonfly33]

Hi Amazing, I have to echo what BB said. The whole thing is just to take away some of the guilt he's been feeling. And you are absolutely right, he's not capable of giving love at the moment not even to himself. And it takes a while until he realizes that, if he does the work. I've been following your story even though I haven't written much here. You are doing a great job as a parent and you have been navigating this stormy water probably better than I did. You seemed to be an independent woman. When I was in your situation I was codependent and it was so much harder for me because I was totally lost, financially, emotionally and mentally.

Randomly, the other day I had posted a cute pic of my son on FB - who is, objectively, an absolutely gorgeous boy - and my H posted this ridiculous GIF or Emoji of like hearts falling onto this little pig and it said 'my love, and you " like his love was like pouring out or whatever. It was insane because this man, who formerly refused to be on FB, would never have sent such a weird, feminine, sappy thing. His mother posted one underneath and it made me smile bc we always both found them so annoying. It was so contrary to his entire personality that even a couple of people I am friends with were like WTF was that? It's weird things like that that underscore to me how insane and totally diff he is now.

My xh is exactly the same. I still have contact with him now and whenever I sent him messages he would most of the time heart it (different colors of heart). This was not the husband I knew of. Or everything on social media is for public viewing, with someone filming himself. He hated this kind of exposure when he was still my husband. I don't know really, maybe people change. Maybe because they hate themselves so they want to create a different persona. I really cannot explain why these things happened and I stopped trying to know. Despite that I am still amazed about the kind of patterns they follow. How similar they are even though they are different people.  Maybe this is one of the WTFs of MLC.

[UrsaMajor]

In the “seriously how can this be for real” category - we had some necessary exchanges night before last and he asked me why I was awake in the middle of the night. And he said “take care of yourself please. I need it”
Not - take care of yourself our kids need you or take care of yourself because you are handling so much, or because you are awesome or because I care about what happens to you - but because “I need it”
He needs me alive to take care of everything. As for me - His needs factor into nothing at the moment.
But I have to say, even knowing all I know, it was a WTF moment.

From him


He needs you to keep from dealing with the consequences of his actions. He needs you to keep him from dealing with the crushing guilt resulting from his choices because, as long as you are there holding down the fort and taking care of the kids, he has his own personal self-produced "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.......

This is not to say that you should follow in his footsteps so he can get a taste of his own medicine but more to say that, IMHO, he DOES have a "need" for you but it is completely and totally narcissistic .....

[amazinglove]

Thanks for those thoughtful and considered responses. They make a lot of sense to me. I agree with all of you.

My H is coming this Friday to see the kids. Just in time for my bday this weekend (yaay me! gaaah). Before you ask, he checked in advance, I am not picking him up from the airport and I have sent him 'house rules' that he needs to abide by if he stays here. I said if he's not happy with them he can book the Courtyard Marriott down the road. He can stay 2 weeks but he is not welcome for Thanksgiving as I have cousins coming and he ruined it last year. (he hates the smell of turkey, ironically) My 7 year old son is desperate to see him and have him here in the house and feel some normalcy - but for the first time, I have set boundaries with my h that I feel pretty good about. Also his clothes are in a bin in the garage and I have entirely moved him out of  my bedroom and bathroom. I am no longer 'holding space' for him. (as long has he has a drawer in someone else's house, he will never have one here). I have scheduled the bathroom renovations while he's here bc I need help with it, he said he is happy to be useful and will do anything. Unbeknownst to him, I'm planning to serve him divorce papers the day before he leaves. So there's that.  I may sound strong and clear headed but I'm still just kind of trying to handle one emotion and action at a time  - and I am having nightmares about being cheated on as I work thru the betrayal subconsciously.

Remember my backpack and the rocks analogy? This morning I was thinking about how much rejection I feel. How I feel jealous, and discarded and rejected and how much hurt I'm carrying around with that. It's heavy, and I am not sure how to remove that from my  burden. I think naming it and trying to look objectively at it, and facing it straight on, is a start.

My D still won't speak to him. She says as long as he has a gf she has nothing to say to him. I have been speaking to my therapist ab how to handle this- so  I told her she has a right to be angry, and she never has to pretend that what is wrong is right. Also he is her dad and she will have to figure out a way to navigate that, and I am here to support her in any way I can. Whatever she needs from me I will do. I also told my son 'daddy and I are not going to live together again, he is just coming for a visit to see you for 2 weeks' and he was v accepting of that. I wanted to try to make sure they don't get too confused. I also really want to show them that we can be divorced and they can still feel like they have two parents.

I guess the biggest problem is WHO is actually coming and how mentally unstable he invariably still is. He is not 'fixed' and I'm certain he is coming back still fundamentally selfish and narcissistic. he wil try his best to be polite but invariably he won't be able to sustain it. We had some texting the other day and he still seems to feel sorry for himself and v much justifying what he's done. His narrative is something like, he's been pushing down his emotions and feelings for years and then they all kind of exploded and he got frightened and ran. he says he is broken and a mess - that last part is def true. It does make me think - exactly what kind of person would be ATTRACTED to this?? a married guy, barely a job, selfish, depressed, completely dependent, feeble minded -his brains are shot -  I think this AP has a massive amt of control and influence over him- I don't actually think he could function right now without that?

I still think about him far more than I would like to admit. I am def not 'over him' at least the man I had a great marriage with all those years. I stil love him - or that part of him - very much. But I am accepting that that man is not an option. He has broken something that i cannot fix, nor does he want to. This week, I told my bosses that I am getting divorced. It was a big deal and difficult to do -I had to swallow hard. It is so painful and personal and now on the record as it were. I don't like to admit to people that I respect professionally that I chose someone who would do this to me and the kids, I think I have some shame about that - like why couldn't I hold it together? or why did I have such bad judgment to marry someone who was clearly a risk to start with, and ended up proving all the naysayers correct.

Anyway, that's what I am ruminating on tonight, as I sit here in my bed on my laptop with both kids next to me playing some kind of Roblox game together and talking about teleporting and virtual buses. Life is good, it really is.

[Flummoxed]

Amazinglove- can I just say that you truly are amazing? I know you are all processing the emotions and going through things one day at a time as we all are, but you are moving forward with such strength and awareness and I think that truly is phenomenal.

I do want to ask that you please don’t put this situation on you. There is truly no way you could have known that an MLC would come out down the road. There is no way that could have been predicted. I have no doubt that you selected a kind, caring, respectful partner to live the rest of your life with. I feel like that’s what we all tried to do. But this is simply something that cannot be foreseen. We do not have control, whether to predict this may happen or any kind of any influence on the outcome. You are doing so brilliantly, but please don’t weigh yourself down even further with these stones too. Their weight is not yours to carry.

I think it’s great that you’re facing your emotions head on and working your way through them, unpacking it all. One day at a time, one stone at a time, until the pack is empty.

And I completely agree- no idea who would be attracted to such a confused and messed up individual… except for someone who is just as (if not more so) messed up. The hope is that, as they grow, they’ll see the situation for what it is. But it’s a user type of relationship - they each get something out of it. In my case, I think my STBXH is getting attention and flattery, but the AP has eyes on his finances. He’s already being pushed to get a job with better pay. Whatcha gonna do? He’s the one who has to see sense and clearly he’s not in the space to do that just yet.

However, I don’t doubt he has been holding things emotionally for years. It may not have been during the course of your relationship, but it likely could have been throughout his childhood. I know it was the case of both for my STBXH- severe people pleasing tendencies stemming from childhood trauma until I think he just snapped. Then used his childhood coping mechanisms to run. They didn’t process but rather repressed so much until eventually it became too much and blew. But, hopefully, with time they’ll be able to synthesize it all, put the pieces back together, and become a stronger version of themselves. If they do the work, which is a huge if.

Ok, sorry for the novel- I just want to let you know you’re doing amazingly. I am sorry that this is happening, but you and the kiddos are doing so great making your way through this chaos. Sending love!

[Treasur]

I agree about that Shame Rock.
It can feel like a heavy one, can’t it? Along with the Stupid Rock lol. And the How Could I Not Have Seen Rock.
I suspect most of us LBS carried those rocks for at least a little while. Perhaps we need to give them a good look in order to cut off the bits of the rocks that really belong to us and the bits that really don’t?

As I get older, it’s easier to see a couple of things.
The first is that there are a lot of tremendously kind and decent humans out there, people who behave well and honestly when they don’t have to or when no-one is even looking. I don’t make them do that and they don’t do it bc of me; they do it bc that’s their way of navigating life. But there are lots of them. They just don’t make as much noise and mess as the disordered.

And secondly, if I’m not responsible for the choices of good quality humans, or the cause of that, why would I be any more responsible for the not so great humans? Bc that’s also their way of navigating life, isn’t it? And we don’t get it bc that’s usually simply not how WE are wired, so often we find their behaviour literally inconceivable. Which most humans find a bit uncomfortable, even a bit scary..  it’s hard and unusual to foresee what we find literally inconceivable surely? We humans are designed to see and assume patterns, to see the world from inside out, to assume that tomorrow will be much like today.

Until we can’t or don’t.
And then we have to adjust our eye and our focus.
Imho that’s true about a lot of things in life…you don’t know what it’s like to be told you have a serious health problem until you do, or to lose your job, or have financial struggles, or watch someone you love take their last breath. Or win the lottery or give birth or watch your child graduate.
We can’t know until we know. We might speculate, but we can’t KNOW.

The intersection for most of us LBS is probably more about what we do when we DO know. Imho that is more often our own source of shame or regret….the things we did or failed to do as we started to see that something or someone was not entirely as we thought it was. The trade offs we made in trying to navigate that.

I used to be a bit sniffy about denial, but nowadays I see it more as a bit of a survival mechanism. We try to keep seeing what we need to see bc it’s too big or too scary or too overwhelming to jump straight to the far end of inconceivable. Most of us imho do it in steps rather than one mighty bound. Bc that’s the way we need to do it to get through it. Not bc we are stupid or delusional or deceitful or cowardly. Just bc it is so big and life altering that we have to cut the reality elephant up into bite sized pieces. And on the way, most of us see and do and say things that we well might say and do and see quite differently at a later stage.

Imho it’s normal and healthy to trust the people we love who claim to be trustworthy. Who behave that way often for years and years. Until they don’t. None of us are God or Doctor Who with a Time Machine. And there’s no shame or foolishness in that imho. I have no idea actually how one would form any kind of long term relationship, let alone a marriage, without some of those basic assumptions. I genuinely do not know how I could have married my former husband if I had approached it assuming that he might do some of what he did to me and my family…I couldn’t even imagine it so how could I have foreseen it? Am I to blame for my failure to imagine it?

The shame and personal accountability for breaking trust, for betraying that implied ‘deal’ is not ours to own. It belongs with the person who chose that course of action as a way to navigate their own life. But of course often that’s the very thing they are trying to avoid bc it’s damned uncomfortable. And bc it requires our better angels and their pockets are emptier than we ever imagined. And bc we are wired to see life differently. And perhaps bc there is an alluring illusion that if we own something we can fix it, control it or protect ourselves from it. All very normal for normal humans imho lol.

Which is not to say that - if we are being honest and accurate - that we LBS don’t have little bits of those big rocks that we do own. That we look at in order, not to beat ourselves up, but to plot and navigate a different course once we find that we have sailed to the edge of the known map and fallen off into uncharted waters. Once we see that we are just not in Kansas anymore ha ha. I would guess that most of us here look back on some of what we thought or did initially, and feel a bit foolish in what we allowed or explained away or tried to work with.

I’ve been sorting through photos here and those around BD fill me with nothing but compassion and respect for that Treasur….she was wrong about a lot but my goodness she was brave and generous and honest…but she looks so grey and thin and broken by it all. In different circumstances, or with a different outcome, a lot of it would be rather admirable tbh. And no one was there to look most of the time; it wasn’t done to impress. It would feel quite wrong to be ashamed of her or blame her for not knowing what she didn’t know. She tried her best and adapted as she went along, she made mistakes, lots of them, but she did very little that she could not have been honest and open about what and why. My then h simply could not have said the same bc there were too many lies on his side of the street - but I was never responsible for someone else’s lies or unkindness and I’m not now. And neither are you.

As always, jmo.

[Treasur]

And a PS bc I found myself thinking about those rocks on my morning walk…..

There is sometimes quite energetic and heartfelt discussion here about forgiveness, in the sense of forgiving our ex/spouses. Those who trespass against us, right?

Again jmo, but I think the harder yet more constructive thing is to gradually find a way to forgive ourselves for anything associated with those darned rocks. Nearly always, we LBS did the best we could with the cards in our hands and based on what we then knew. I made a ton of schoolgirl errors, some before BD and many post BD and since. And I sometimes feel ashamed or stupid or a bit of a failure about some of those.

But you know what is also true?
I would have felt blessed if I’d had a spouse who dug that deep in the darkest times. I would have applauded the courage and real heart of someone else in a situation like mine who had kept so much optimism and grace and kindness. I would have admired someone else doing most of what I did in those circumstances even if I had also wanted them to take better care of themselves. I did not lie or steal or do things to hurt or diminish or consciously damage other humans - in fact there was lots of times when I intentionally chose to step back from the opportunities to do so. To behave towards others etc etc. And I did that pretty consistently when I was in tremendous distress. Was I perfect? Gosh, no. But I tried so hard to be fair and honest and kind. The person who took the most damage tbh was me.

I doubt (ha ha, I’m assuming lol) that you would listen to the details of my situation and bash me over the head with some of those rocks. Would you tell me (or even think silently) that I was a damned idiot for ever marrying my h or trusting his intent towards me? In sharing my ‘worldly goods’? In not foreseeing some of the crazy s$it that happened? In not being able to override someone else’s choices? Or that I deserved it in some way or was responsible for things I didn’t know about or could not control?

I doubt you would. I think you’d hug me and say you were so sorry that this awful thing had happened. That it had happened around me not bc of me. That you were proud of all those brave things I did when I was on my knees. And that you were going to cheer me on as I found my own way to sail on uncharted waters.

Why would you not talk to you like (hopefully) you would talk to me?
Why would those rocks be relevant to you if you would not throw them in my bag?
Why would you deserve less grace than you would offer someone like me? (Bc there is a reason why my little grey cat is called Grace lol)

Just a thought xxx

[Biscuit]

This …

 I would have felt blessed if I’d had a spouse who dug that deep in the darkest times. I would have applauded the courage and real heart of someone else in a situation like mine who had kept so much optimism and grace and kindness. I would have admired someone else doing most of what I did in those circumstances even if I had also wanted them to take better care of themselves. I did not lie or steal or do things to hurt or diminish or consciously damage other humans - in fact there was lots of times when I intentionally chose to step back from the opportunities to do so. To behave towards others etc etc. And I did that pretty consistently when I was in tremendous distress.

Really resonated- thanks Treasur

[amazinglove]

Well a lot has happened, and yet, it's still much the same I guess.

I served my H with divorce papers last week. He was here with us (and has been for the past 3 weeks) so I ran out for a Starbucks at the time I knew the process server was nearby. I wasn't sure of his reaction but I guess it was what I expected. Despite telling him i was doing this many times, he was shocked, and he cried. I told him he had made his choice and now I was choosing myself, also that I could not live a lie and had no choice. He accepted it, he is not contesting it, arguing with it or indeed he refused to even read or look at them once he was served. It says on there I have sole custody and there is zero community property to be split, and as everything is in my name, that will mean it will remain mine.

The kids have been so happy to have him here. It has been the best visit they've had with their dad since all of this really kicked off a year ago. He has been better at staying engaged and present. There were of course moments where he slipped into the kind of grouchy, negative guy he is now, but mostly he kept it together. We have had 3 bathroom renovations going on while he's been here and he's helped me a lot with that. He's been running to tile places etc and I think he's felt good to be useful and have something to do. He tends to focus on ways to be productive (cleaning up the garden, washing and servicing the car etc) so he can leave again and not come back for a few months with less guilt.

My son (7) has been showing signs of the strain of the impending departure. it is heartbreaking really. The other day my H was clearly feeling guilty ab it and chose the opportunity to kind of list off the reasons why our marriage broke down (spoiler alert it's all my fault). It was so mean spirited - mainly and exclusively insulting our sex life (and my lack of interest it which is why he turned to his old flame- my fault for turning him down a bunch of times). For the record there were also times he turned me down. The thing is, if we were one of those couples who never had sex  (like months or years at a time) I could almost see it, but we were not. The truth is, I was less attracted to him the last year because he was a giant baby and completely selfish in bed and otherwise. He detached and was already in touch with her. I felt like when we had sex he wasn't even seeing me, I could have been anyone and I felt farther away from him after than I did before. I didn't want him. And instead of looking at why, he just ran completely. It hurt tho, what he was saying, it was like he said that he finally understood what good sex was now that he's with her! Talk about offensive.  And first of all, he had been with her years before me, so he clearly knew what it was and still he married me. I am determined not to let this hurt me after he is gone, which I'm sure was his intention - that and alleviating his own guilt.

This morning I reminded him that the next time we see each other we will be divorced. I leave for NY for work tomo and he leaves for his parents overseas on Tuesday. He said he will love me always but tbh the vibe i get is that has really moved on, in every way with his AP. I think he sees me like an old, comfortable shoe he used to like wearing. He is no longer grieving me. It is hard to feel all of that but at the same time it will help me as I try to help myself and move forward on my own. I guess I just wish it seemed harder for him to do this than it does.

He did say one thing this trip. He said that when he's with her, he misses our family, including me,  terribly but when he is here he cannot wait to leave and feels like he's in prison. He said he is never happy or has peace. I told him he is just running (he only buys one way tickets everywhere so as not to commit to a return time) from his own depression and he needs to stand still and face it. But nothing really lands. I realise that.

Tomo I will go to the airport as his wife but in 30-60 days (before I see him again) that will no longer be true. It's time to end this ugly charade he's forced me in to. He will go back to her and they are building a life together. I will continue to pick up the pieces of the one he blew up. I have hope for the future and I pray that I can find more peace and comfort as the days go onward. This will be my first Xmas without him in 15 years and the first ever for our kids - we will make it work. By next year this time hopefully I will be in a new home, with a fresh start. I am ready for some more change.

[Reinventing]

Amazinglove,

Regarding sex, it is yet another excuse. With time, it won't be new and exciting with her--once she's not the escape from himself and not something new.

This is a tough step, so be kind to yourself.

[Flummoxed]

Sending love, amazinglove- what an update. I agree with your belief regarding the sex subject- he felt the guilt but didn’t want to accept it so he lashed out at you to try to get you to feel the pain instead. His words are just that- words. And rationally speaking, I know you know that, but emotionally it’s a whole other ballgame, isn’t it? I think back to the Shocksis thread where she mentions the fog played a part in completely rewriting her sex life with her XH and masked everything about OM. The OM didn’t hold a candle.

I’m totally assuming, but it seems he believes “this is for the best”. I keep seeing this phrase in a bunch of recovered MLCer threads and my STBXH used the same phrasing at BD2. It’s great that he shared that he misses you all and you shared that truth dart. You’re right; it’s all that can be done. The rest is up to him.

I’m also dreading the holidays- this first season into uncharted waters. But new beginnings call for new traditions. Maybe creating new ornaments for the tree or exploring a holiday market close by?

I’m excited for the positive new changes and opportunities coming your way! 💗

[Trustandlove]

Hi, amazinglove,

Just a note from someone who has been here for ages -- my former H also told me that "now he finally knew what happiness was" when he was with OW5 -- this was when he decided to divorce me (he had been through 4 before that), clearly stating that I was completely at fault for his unhappiness.  He actually told me that the whole problem was me, and that he felt huge relief when he realised that and left. 

OW5 of course didn't last, neither did no. 6, who he was with when he finally divorced me, and who he married.  I've heard that he has broken up with no. 6 and is on the next one now, I can't even call her an OW. 

Just to say that it is exactly as you say -- they buy one-way tickets away rather than facing their own depression.  It's sad.  But we can't control it, it's taken me years and years to understand that. You are doing brilliantly.

Well done for making sure you and the children have everything you need -- that is a huge hurdle for many.  This is a crappy thing to be facing, but sorting the business side does make it easier.

x

[Treasur]

I agree with Reinventing that I hope you can see that, whatever the pros and cons and wherefores of it, this is a significant life transition and big transitions are hard on the spirit, so I hope you are treating yourself kindly. Imho at the early stage of big life transitions, the losses are easy to see while the gifts and gains can take a while to make themselves known. And Christmas can be a very triggery kind of season for many folks for many reasons, can’t it?

Does your h have to sign anything? Does he have a lawyer? I only ask bc these kind of ‘I have a sadz’ MLCers sometimes say they ‘accept’ something but drag their feet on doing their small part practically. And your stbxh evidently likes having both camps in play to some degree based on his behaviour. What happens if he does nothing? 

I agree with your instinct about his litany of blame. And his own ‘I’m not happy here or there’ thing is a man trying to scratch a relentless itch and failing all round, isn’t it? Remarkably Me Me of course and I hope you can take his words as the blah blah that they are; they really are no more than him emotionally vomiting out loud about his own mess. They say nothing reliable at all about you or his kids or even his magic happy next.

And sex? Well, if one took him at his word for a moment, what that’s actually saying is that in his view of marriage, the kind of sex he’s getting is more important than your children, more important than your previously shared life or financial well-being, and more important than honouring any sense of personal honour and promises made. I suspect that is not how you see marriage at all and tbh it’s a rather foolish hostage to fortune way to look at life writ large, isn’t it? It’s like listening to a teenage boy full of hormones and stupidity, and makes him as reliable as a grownup blancmange kind of man, doesn’t it? Not much of a prize for a grown up woman as he’s too old to lack even the physical benefits of a teenage sex-obsessed boy lol. But if that is what he thinks, the Moscow Mule - or any other woman - better keep rolling out some magic tricks to keep him entertained! And hope that nobody gets ill or tired or busy or y’know any of that real life s&it!


When’s he leaving? And, out of interest, are you intending to allow him to come back and intermittently shack up in your home for a few weeks at a time in future once you are divorced? Or do you see his spending time with the kids working differently in future? Bc tbh that’s how divorce tends to work, isn’t it, particularly when a parent chooses to live thousands of miles away, that a whole bunch of things are done differently? Well, unless you want to carry the weight of an xh as part of your life furniture forever lol. Or build an xh annex in your future garden. Perhaps that’s why God created Air B and B, ha ha, but I bet your stbxh has given no thought at all to how his spending time with the kids will work without your involvement, so good reason for you to think about it.

How are your kids doing? Any differences in how your daughter and your son are behaving? And what conversations, if any, have you had about how they think things will work after you are divorced? Or what they want or don’t want with regard to seeing their father? It’s so understandable that some part of you as a mother might want to sacrifice your own comfort for theirs….lots of LBS mums here get that….but imho there’s a risk in normalising things that are not actually based in reality. And boundaries are a fair and accurate reflection of change and transition, aren’t they? And apply to small humans as much as bigger ones.

Hope your trip went well and looking forward to hearing more about your plans for your next chapter and next home.

[KayDee]

I know it is sort of beside the point, because it IS just another justification, but his whole narrative about sex is so immature. It made my blood boil. Everyone knows that intimacy in long-term relationships changes from the initial fireworks, especially when other demands (kids, work, etc) increase. That's normal. And, anyway, it is usually replaced by something more intimate, giving and attentive of each other's needs. If things wane, as they can do, it is down to the couple to address together. NOT go and find someone else to boost the ego. Think about how one-sided that is. You were both missing out on sexual intimacy, but he can only think about his own needs. Then he does something so self-serving that it destroys your trust and he blames you. This is also a very tired, misogynistic trope. Man has to have an 'affair' because his needs are not being met at home. Bla bla bla. End Rant. But it is just a narrative he tells himself to justify his behaviour. And it's not even a very convincing one, is it?

IMO he feels 'free' with OW because he is not (yet....) being held to account for anything. He doesn't look at her and see all the destruction and pain he has caused. She's a nice new mirror (for now...). I doubt he has grieved your marriage. Honestly? He is still blaming things on others like a teenager. He doesn't have the strength to face himself even. You, on the other hand, have shown such strength and love, for yourself and your kids.

[amazinglove]

First and foremost thank you Reinventing, TrustandLove, KayDee, Treasur and Flummoxed for those thoughtful and really wise replies. They helped me a lot! I read them all several times.

My stbx is now gone and has been for 2 weeks and I have been digging out again, having been significantly set back by spending every single day with him (and long car rides to tile stores) for 3 weeks. I spoke to him today, for the first time in 2 weeks as we had to arrange something re kids and also i wanted to see his dad who has been v ill again. He texted me he was at his parents (and to be honest, I  had a super hair day today) so I called him and said hi to his mom and dad.

Here's what was hard. I did not expect to see him look so happy. In a new sweater of course and via text he more or less confirmed that he has been there with her the whole two weeks. She was NOT at my in laws home, and as far as know my FIL is still being kept in the dark. My stbx asked me how I was and I said truthfully, overwhelmed. I asked him how his teeth were going (he told us all he was going back there to 'do his teeth') and he said he wasn't starting that until next week. he's been there two weeks and so without thinking i said, oh it's been rainy there - what have you been up to? and he ignored and just said, 'yes it's been raining.' then he said 'i dont want there to be weirdness between us' so said 'well if the only question I can ask you is 'what country are you in' that will  be weird'  and I said, let me guess, shopping and travel? and he said all of the above, or something like "a bit of everything", i cant remember but I was enraged. so i let it go and moved back to the topic of kids - all I can really engage with i guess. I am here, covered in dust and mud, trying to keep all the balls in the air in the life WE made for ourselves (my d needs a tonsilectomy, my son needs ADHD meds, ortho etc etc) while he runs around smug and happy on top of the world. He works like 10 hours a week. I have a strong suspicion she is buying him a new apartment and prob a car or something. That would explain the self satisfied, really happy look. he is ALL in over there. And he is integrating her into his life (I'm sure he's intro'd her to the other sister, the one i like) and family and our family home - it was really painful to see. there was nothing good in that call for me, just a further reminder that he does not care. 

It's hard not to look back. I have to be honest here, I hate when people go on and on moaning about missing their exes in the FB group I'm in. I really do get tired of all the complaining and negativity sometimes, so that's the last thing i want to do. Evaluating my life with him, I question my judgment, my sanity, my perceptions, all of it, that I was living so closely with someone capable of doing this. And even as I get my head around his rejection of me, ILYBNILWY or whatever, how on earth can he sit there so happy even tho he has not seen his kids for 2 weeks, my d won't speak to him or reply to any texts, my son looked terribly sad in the last photo I sent and I told him our 11 year old d is depressed. he knows this. And yet, he seems so solid and committed to his new reality. It's the determination to do this, in spite of the cost to them, in spite of the enormous cost to him really of losing his family, that hurts my heart to see. Because only a monster would see this tradeoff as an upgrade.

And yes, I understand that in MLC they are not normal, logical humans. I don't believe he is strictly sane. But he is also not criminally insane. He is just basically, I think if I had to articulate it,  selfish to the point of evil.

My friend Amy died the day before Thanksgiving. She'd been sick for 5 years - she was diagnosed at Stage IV and she'd managed to stay longer than anyone thought she could - but it was still painful. She had the most beautiful faith - she wrote a book called 'The Brave In Between - Notes from the Last Room' and it's WONDERFUL. I highly recommend if you have a faith.

What I'm finding is that emotionally painful things all hit harder now and it makes the stuff with him hit harder too. Like my skin got so much thinner or my baseline of resilience is depleted. I had an elective surgery Jan 2nd planned but have postponed so I can go to her memorial. It will give me a shorter recovery time but I need to see this through. Fortunately it's in San Diego so it's not too much of a trek, and our mutual friend (we were three college roommates - yes we had THREE of us in one small dorm room!!!) is flying out and I will get to attend with her. It will be good to grieve with her, since most of the time we were the three of us together.

My sister comes for Xmas Dec 20th and is staying thru New Year. I have not invited my stbx to come and he is not pushing that. The kids will struggle without him (as I will if I'm completely honest) first Xmas in 15 years not together - but it's for the best. He is not who we miss. That guy is not there in that body. And that is by far the hardest thing to understand in all of this.

[Flummoxed]

Amazinglove, I’m so incredibly sorry for your loss. I’m glad you’ll be able to attend her memorial with your mutual friend; loving company during these times makes all the difference.

Also sending hugs- seeing your MLCer “happy”… there are no words. Logically, I try to remember that they do not have the capacity to feel true happiness right now. They can feel the high of their drug of choice, but true happiness while in the midst of deep depression? Not so much. That being said, it doesn’t make the betrayal and unbelievable selfishness any easier to swallow.

It’s great to hear your sister is coming in for the holidays! Do you have any plans in the works? In the midst of all the juggling at home, are you getting any time to tend to yourself and your well-being?  Sometimes, it feels like we need a crowbar to peel our eyes away from the chaos of MLCer destruction, but I truly believe we have our LBS journey to tend to as well. Don’t forget to spend some of your limited time on you, not just in terms of healing but in adding little moments of joy to your day.

[amazinglove]

Thank you for that Flummoxed. It helps to read that. I am working on carving out space for me, long walks, baths, and I need a massage, maybe a facial. I will also start finding time for more reading/meditation or prayer. even stretching. I need all of it. I am really enjoying my kids a lot. And I had wonderful family here- my fave cousin and her great husband from Ohio-  for Thanksgiving - it was WONDERFUL and a huge boost for all of us.

One note here - something that happened over Thanksgiving that was notable for me - my son, who is 7, has so far not been able to learn to ride a bike. My h, when he was here, was going to take him to practice his bike and my son cried bc he did not want to go. I think he did not want to fail in front of him. But my cousin's h, a v chilled out engineer type with three adult kids he's taught to ride a bike, took him down to the school and guess what? my son learned! he actually did it! He is so so proud. He has barely gotten off his bike since.  I sent to my stbx, a video of my son riding with my cousin's h in the video having taught him, and my stbx was seemingly thrilled. He wrote back I'm so proud of him!! etc etc. He left him a voice note saying that (he did not call). And yet, another kids' dad taught his son to ride a bike?! How does that not connect with him at all? My cousin's h said that if another man had taught his kid to ride a bike he prob would have vomited from stress. Mine was, Im' fairly sure, in a hotel or traveling so he couldn't call on camera. he didn't even call kids on Thanksgiving, I hate this for them even more than me. (if that isn't already obvs)

[LBSinUSA]

Reading on your story, Im sorry your going through this.  As someone alluded to above, it seems to me like when in the throes of MLC, the MLCer is not "happy" really.  Its just a dopamine hit similar to an addiction.  And in that sense I suppose we should feel sorry for them as we would for addicts.  I try in a way to practice this myself but admittedly I fail. 

Youre right that as a man/father I cant imagine missing out on teaching my son to ride a bike or a million other things.  Playing catch, looking at the stars, etc, the list goes on.  Those are the moments I tend to think that when I go to meet my maker, I will look back on and remember the most fondly.  If your STBXH cant see that then what a loss for him.  And frankly what a fool. 

[Treasur]

Well done to your boy! Hurrah! And a hurrah for the chap who helped him feel safe and brave enough to do it! Nice for you to be reminded too, as LBS said above, that not all men are like your h is now.

And of course life will naturally bring more of these triumphs and one-off moments that your stbxw won’t be there to see or share. Bc that’s how the real treasures of life unfold, isn’t it?

I found myself wondering why you sent a video of it. Did your son ask you to? Or if it was your choice, do you know why? And what did you or your boy gain from doing so?

I ask bc I wrote on someone else’s thread that it takes a while to unpick the old We habits into new We and Me ones, particularly if you have kids I suspect. And bc it jarred with me slightly….isn’t it somehow normalising his kind of virtual remote fatherhood as ok, when in reality it’s just the practical consequence of a father who chooses to live a new life elsewhere? I bet lots of LBS dads don’t get those videos from their MLC exes and they are not separated from time with their children by choice.

Not the end of the world, of course, no biggie compared to the importance of the moment for your boy, but it might be an opportunity to muse on those future We/Me lines?……

[amazinglove]

Good question. And I do want to carefully consider. Going forward I mean. 
In this instance as soon as I got there and started video taping the first thing he said to me was “send it to daddy”

[Trustandlove]

AM, I did the same for a long time.  And yes, there was always the dim hope that he would see things like that and that it would jog something in him, something that would want us.  It never did, and I did stop doing that after a while (about 3 years in my case....), but at least I could never be accused of withholding anything.   My children appreciate that.

Don't be hard on yourself -- all this takes so much time, none of us are perfect, and of course we look back and think that we could/should have done things differently.  We're human, and I very much agree with what treasur said on I think another thread about expecting someone to behave rationally when they have shown us they don't.  It takes a long time for our brains to process that, and for us to adjust our expectations and behaviour to the new reality, one which we can't get our heads round. 

I remember the first time I didn't send something, didn't do something; it felt wrong.  But I did realise that I was doing it to have contact.  Even years later, when he would come forward for a bit, I again sent something when there was an opportunity.  The kinds of things parents would normally share.  And I learned not to have any expectations; eventually I stopped because I realised I was giving him things to show his friends to indicate that he was a good father, which he most certainly wasn't.  But it's not a quick and simple process.

You are doing wonderfully, keep hold of the good things. 

[KayDee]

I'm sorry for your loss AL and I really get what you mean about how hard these things hit when you are already in grief. Your friend sounds an inspiration, and it must have been wonderful to have her in your life.

Re the Happy Sweater Unreality Show - I deeply suspect it was a broadcast for one, and perhaps next time you can skip being in the audience. Go back to flitting around in the background with your gorgeous hair, and engage less with him and his new wardrobe. On a (more) serious note, if his happy is the kind that is built on being an underemployed toyboy who abandoned his family to achieve his bliss, then he's not a man you have anything in common with at the moment, is he? And anyway, happiness is a fleeting emotion. Living instep with our values, finding meaning in what we do, and what we mean to others, that is long term. That's having integrity and it takes courage. The crisis person, the type that is a people-pleaser, has spent most of their life putting on a front to avoid conflict. My H is a classic example, and although the lid blew off at BD, I can only imagine this 'everything is fine' mode is so ingrained as a defense against conflict that he is still doing it now. So if they can appear happy (enough) prior to BD, they sure as heck can still put on that front now. I think it easier, 'safer' for them to go along with things and it's a kind of cowardice to my mind.

[Treasur]

And a PS from me
I am so very sorry for your loss of what sounds like a splendid woman and friend lost too young.

I nodded to myself about what you said about feeling as if your skin is thin or your normal resilience somehow less. It felt that way for me too…tbh it makes sense doesn’t it? Like trying to run a marathon after just recovering from flu. Your emotional skin probably IS thinner….such an important loss would still have hurt of course……but we are a bit raw for a while, I think, like a bird with few feathers perhaps…..all the more reason to be kind and gentle with yourself, and count every small blessing. Pretty much probably what Amy would have said to you….so, on a tough day, remind yourself to treat you like Amy would treat you as her dear dear friend x

[xyzcf]

Good question. And I do want to carefully consider. Going forward I mean.
In this instance as soon as I got there and started video taping the first thing he said to me was “send it to daddy”

He is still the father of your children. All the suggestions of what sending him a video might or might not mean are really only guesses...to not communicate with him about his children in my opinion seems punitive and mean......and doesn't give our children a very good example of how to treat people.

He doesn't want to be married to you any more...or you don't want to be married to him anymore....doesn't mean that he doesn't want to know about his children and what they are doing...doesn't even mean he doesn't love you...as he and many other MLCers have told the LBSer.

Whatever he is doing in his life, with who ever, no longer needs to have an impact on your life. We step away, we build a life without them in it.

Our kids suffer and as their parent, we do get to help them to have some kind of relationship with their absent parent.

What is best for your children, ultimately and how can you minimize the damage that divorce causes for children?

If sending an update or a photo or video is a way of having some contact with them, so be it.

Your son is very young, he's not able to send his own video to his dad perhaps or even express to his dad his thoughts and feelings. He doesn't understand what has happened to his family, it's very confusing to him and he's proud that he was able to ride a bike.

There is no need to analyze it to death and no need to withhold sharing information, and sometimes even family time....the end result will be well worth it as the children are considered first in making things simple and as pleasant as possible.

Our feelings need to be considered but it is possible to have a relationship with our spouse and by our own healing, find peace in what has happened.

[amazinglove]

Thanks for that all. I appreciate all comments! Thanks for helping me see this is not real happiness. Yes, I will continue to strive for the right balance when it comes to including him enough that it benefits THEM. And when they are old enough to decide for themselves so be it.
I have him blocked on all portals bc i do not want him reaching out when i feel weak, but I will continue to unblock to send him milestones and info he needs or a photo as we go. I do this for them and also for the father he was for 10 of the last 11 years - which was far better than the dad I or he had. But I need to balance it with what I can handle too. And right now, it’s not much.
My kids need to believe he cares..I firmly believe it’s better for them.  And he does at some level even now. He just loves himself most of all.

[MadLuv]

Hi AL, I so very sorry for the loss of your friend. It is especially hard at this time of year and when your life has such huge changes already and loss. 

I am going to also say that I sent updates, pictures and videos here and there at first as well, but he never did the same the few time he was with our kids. Mine are adults, but we also have a grandson that I kept him informed on. I think if he is doing the same for you then it is good, but if all the efforts are on your end I think you will find yourself possibly stack piling more resentment. I also think if they are not doing all they can to engage with their kids then they need to feel that consequence. My XH once told me that I was his security blanket. He also said he wanted his old life back and that he would take any pictures I will send, but he understands he doesn’t deserve them.

I truly think they realize what they are doing at some point and making it easier on them is enabling their behaviors and decisions. Thats just my opinion years in. It has definitely changed since this all started. NC has really given me a clearer insight into reading between the lines of everything he has said and did now as I don't have him manipulating my mind anymore. I truly hope he is the good person he once was in there, but he certainly is not showing that in any way. Until he shows something different he will not have me making his life easier in any way. He left in a discard of abuse and frankly it’s unforgivable without accountability, which I doubt will ever come. I don’t think it is cruel at all not keeping them informed. They left. They have the ability to engage and create all the memories they want. It is not your job to fill them in on the time they are absent.

If the kids want to inform him maybe you can record them talking directly to their dad and send it that way. Remove yourself from it, even if you are doing the sending until they are old enough to engage themselves. Just my thoughts.

[amazinglove]

I have Covid and hence a quiet evening quarantining a bit from family - so far no one's got it but me. Feel rubbish but I think I'm thru the worst of it - day 3. (this is my 3rd round of Covid btw, and it's been surprisingly potent this time around). I'm pretty exhausted and run down tho, so that's part of it.

Something I'm ruminating on tonight is the idea of grieving what I thought I had, and how significant that is.

Someone far wiser than me (KayDee?) told me that that is a part of the process and I have been thinking about that ever since. It was my son's bday Monday and of course his dad is not here. He called to sing to him etc, and it just made things worse. On his bday, my son recorded a video saying hi and then it went into him basically pleading with his dad to come back. I was in pieces watching it but I sent it, (without comment) as he wanted me to. I will never understand how the man who loved these babies so deeply can walk, nay run, away with such utter callousness. He sees this little boy's abject pain and cries a few (performative?)  tears and then shifts gears.

I grapple with understanding that the honest and empathetic man who I trusted above all others could lie and betray me so casually and without much, if any, remorse. A ruthless discard after a loving decade. How he could turn on a dime really, (it was not on a dime of course, it was a slow decline over the course of a few years, but it felt that way) from being someone I love and recognize to a complete creep and stranger. How resolved and resigned he is to his new life with seemingly no second thoughts about or a backward glance at the 15-year mostly wonderful relationship we had - and more significantly the two gorgeous kids he's left behind.  The hard working man who valued family and God above all else - who now chases indolence, money, adventure and sex. I know lots of you have similar stories, and my pain is not unique.

It comes down to this: I thought I had something that I didn't have. Accepting that hurts because it calls into question my entire history with him, my judgment, my sanity, my reality.  He has caused me a huge amount of pain this past year, the deepest cut anyone has ever made by a mile, and yet as if that were not bad enough, he's now ruining my memories of him too. It's impossible to view him then without seeing how the story has turned out now. Has anyone resolved this?

Someone on here, or somewhere else, said to live as if they are never coming back - know in your heart that they are gone forever, and proceed to rebuild your life from that perspective. That makes sense. Accepting that he will almost certainly never go back to being the kind, good man i loved all those years is heartbreaking, and hard to do. I still love that man and miss him - I wonder if I always will - but going back to my original question - did I really ever know him? Crisis or not, he had the capacity to do this. I never, ever saw that coming, esp ab the kids. That is not something I understood he was capable of until now, and it's a really tough pill to swallow. And as I chose him to be the father of my children, I am v much tied to perpetually hoping for a better outcome/version of him than what is now before us - an idiotic and completely selfish tw*t. They deserve so much better.

Do you think that letting the old version of our beloved spouses 'die', accepting that they are dead and buried, is necessary for us to move on?

[xyzcf]

Hope you are feeling better...COVID still is rearing it's ugly head.

Rewriting history is common for all of us. I do believe that what we had was real. Prior to their crisis, they would never have thought it would be possible to do what they did. As was once pointed out to me, what is a food I hate? I responded liver..then was asked if I would eat liver every day for 32 years if I hated it...no. I know a silly idea really...but I know that what we had was the real deal.

Which is what makes it so hard, because it was good...very very good.

Understanding why is not really something that we can comprehend.

Do you think that letting the old version of our beloved spouses 'die', accepting that they are dead and buried, is necessary for us to move on?

But they are not dead...would be easier if they were.

Letting go of what once was, living in the now and accepting that they have changed drastically from the person we loved allows us to move forward. We search for understanding, but there are some things in life that have no explanation, no reason why. Ultimately, in order to let go, we accept it for what is.

In my story, he was not a father to our daughter for several years. That has changed and they have a good relationship and he is much better with her. I am happy about that for I do believe children are better served even with a small amount of contact with their parent.

The grief and suffering is very real for us. The memories and the occasions that trigger memories of better times continue to infiltrate our thoughts, our dreams and changed what we believe about life and trust and love. We are changed as well as they are changed.

The solace that I got was from reading stories over and over again of similarities in what the MLCer does. RCR's articles also clearly helped me to understand the pathology of this crisis. Talking to others who had lived through this allowed me to comprehend that I would never make sense out of this.

But amazing, this takes years and years to get over..and I am not sure we ever truly "get over" it completely.

It comes down to this: I thought I had something that I didn't have. Accepting that hurts because it calls into question my entire history with him, my judgment, my sanity, my reality.  He has caused me a huge amount of pain this past year, the deepest cut anyone has ever made by a mile, and yet as if that were not bad enough, he's now ruining my memories of him too

Can you switch this pattern of thinking? He has left and your contact with him is mainly concerning the children. It hurts badly but you can have control over the memories that you had together. It's in the pictures, the joy and happiness you felt. It was real. You can blame him for a lot of things but your memories are yours and he cannot touch them...for they are in your joined past.

He is not in your present except in a very superficial way. His life now is more important to him that what once was..but that doesn't mean that what once was was not important to him.

You have to take care of the kids as well as yourself and that is extremely fatiguing and stressful...they seem to get away scott free, leaving behind all their responsibilities...we cannot force them or insist that they step up to the plate..that person no longer exists.

Accepting that the person you were with for 15 years is gone will allow you to become free of the yearning that still exists for what was.

[Flummoxed]

Hi, amazinglove! It’s great to hear you’re through the worst of it- I hope that recovery progresses nice and smoothly so you’re back to healthy in no time!

I agree with xyzcf 200%.

I think we all have our ways of processing this trauma. We process the sequence of events, develop a story that makes sense to us, and proceed in a direction we’re called toward. And this direction can change and change again- we’re allowed to change our minds. But the rationale for why these MLCers do what they do- it’s not definite. Unfortunately, there’s still a lot of theory and a lot of mystery, but the trauma experienced is so very real and I’m sorry you’re dealing with this- truly. And being stuck in quarantine right now does not help at all with the ruminating, I imagine! But you’ll be back and busy very soon!

I think it goes back to doing your best not to personalize the crisis. And, I know, it’s way easier said than done. I for sure struggle with this all the time. But it really isn’t about you or the kids- from what I believe, he’s dealing with so many repressed emotions. He’s got an entitled teen at the wheel- this person has no connection to being married or having kids. But the hope is that with time, he will be able to sort out his issues and get through to the other side. There’s no guarantee, but that’s the hope for them.

From my personal experience, thus far, I’ve kind of divvied up the memories from pre-depression onset/BD and post-depression onset/BD. The memories from before- they’re not tainted for me. Those were real. No matter what he claims these days, we had a great connection and there was love, safety, and understanding there. Post-BD, there are still moments I choose to remember dearly. They’re few and far between but there were flashes of the real him somewhere before the complete drop and I keep those memories stored in the vault as well.

The truth is they never were who we thought they were. Likely we aren’t who they thought we were either- no one knows their partner 100%. I think these MLCers often do their best to put their best version of themselves out there pre-BD, repressing so much (a continuation from childhood behaviors), until finally they snap and their shadow/repressed emotions/children of their issues run for it. Of course, this is just my opinion. As much as these MLCers were likely wondrous members of society pre-BD, I think a lot of them are learning that perfection isn’t needed in life- that they can give themselves a bit more grace to live a more authentic life. The method by which they’re learning this is horrendous to say the least, but if they can finally face their childhood issues and deal with them properly, that would be some kind of benefit, right?

I can’t speak to whether it’s necessary to imagine the MLCer in that light to move on- I’m still treading water myself. But I think it helps to accept the current reality and shift the perspective back to ourselves. I think that’s the thing that helps us move forward the most- shift the eyes and mind to focus back on our own lives. How can we improve our day a bit? When was the last time I met up with so-and-so? When was the last time I wore fun makeup just for me? When was the last time I bought flowers just because? Little treats, new experiences, fresh air and perspective- I think these help more to move forward than anything tied to the MLCer. Much like they’ve shifted their focus to self, that’s what will likely benefit us as well. And knowing that the future will be bright- that wondrous times are ahead, with or without this individual is also key.

Have faith, amazinglove- you’re in an incredibly tender period. Give yourself grace and keep chatting!

[Reinventing]

He has caused me a huge amount of pain this past year, the deepest cut anyone has ever made by a mile, and yet as if that were not bad enough, he's now ruining my memories of him too. It's impossible to view him then without seeing how the story has turned out now. Has anyone resolved this?

Yes and no. With time, I do have a different view of both how he and I were through the years, relationship-wise. Some things make more sense in the cold light of day and I can see things about both him and me now (good and bad).

On the other hand, I can look back at memories and although some sadness is there--similar to how I think of memories with others who are no longer present--and it doesn't hurt.

I guess it is the difference of my thoughts about my attachment and pairing with him versus remembering things about my life that inextricably are intertwined with memories of him. This last part especially, with time, gets a lot better. For me that took quite a bit of time.

When it is better, it means you are not blocking or wincing with pain for being reminded, in a very normal way, of your past.

[KayDee]

I really get what XYZ says, although, for me, I have been really careful throughout this not to rewrite history, so I want to clarify the aspect of grieving you mention. I think Flummoxed kinda nails it -

The truth is they never were who we thought they were. Likely we aren’t who they thought we were either- no one knows their partner 100%. I think these MLCers often do their best to put their best version of themselves out there pre-BD, repressing so much (a continuation from childhood behaviors), until finally they snap and their shadow/repressed emotions/children of their issues run for it.

So, yes, this, IMO, was always there, as a kind of hairline crack, and how my H dealt with the eventual collapse is part of who he is. It is not all of who he is. This is the reality. And for me, the image of my H as the rock solid man who would NEVER do the things he has done is false. And not looking at this straight on, it was hindering my healing, because I was trying to shove that round peg husband of reality into the square hole of who I thought he was. I had to grieve that.

But at the same time, I do believe he did his best given the FOO hand he was dealt. He did his best in our relationship. And I truly believe that I am the person who he committed to the most - actually I was the most consistent thing he loved for 20 plus years. I know he was drawn to me because I had a very stable upbringing and he respected my values and the bond of my extended family. He didn't have that in his FOO, and he adopted many of those values. But as my IC is always telling me, in crisis, humans have an unerring knack of returning to what is known.

[Treasur]

It comes down to this: I thought I had something that I didn't have. Accepting that hurts because it calls into question my entire history with him, my judgment, my sanity, my reality.

First of all, oh my goodness, yes. I think most of us recognise that stage as part of the process we go through in making some kind of sense about what happened. And I’m not sure there is an ‘off the shelf’ answer to it. Or tbh that all of those questions and doubts eventually neatly disappear for good. But as someone said most of us eventually reach our own point where we feel we can sanely separate wheat from chaff without wincing.


Was it all untrue? On the liver principle, probably not. On the quacks like a duck principle, perhaps some of it was not all of the truth. The really tricky bit imho is that we don’t know which bit was which, do we?

As Xyzcf said though, we learn that we do have more choice about what we think than we might think we do. And again jmo, deciding what we think and what that means to us is an important kind of self care. If I can’t know for certain, but one set of thinking leaves me feeling nutty or unmoored from my own sense of who I am, and a different set of thinking leaves me feeling sane if sad, then I can choose to think what feels more constructive for me. And I can change my mind of course as I learn more info or as events unfold.

The simple principle that helped me is that whatever it was, whatever I call it, the driving force behind this experience just wasn’t about me or created by me. I can’t comprehend it bc it wasn’t from me; it was an Other, something outside of me and my life and my reality.

Again jmo, but I think that’s why many of us find reducing contact with the Now Version gives us a bit of clear water to separate the Then Version from the Now One vs continually trying to balance both on the same plate.

And perhaps that’s also why accepting the metaphorical death of the Then, regardless of what happens, and the reality of the Now, is part of the process for many of us. Perhaps doing that changes our mental metrics in some way, or helps us separate Then and Now as two different things, two different people really, idk. We teach ourselves to expect different things from a Now vs a Then person. For me, and I’m not recommending it as such bc I appreciate it sounds a bit nutty, I found it made sense to my brain to think of my much loved husband as if he’d died. It fitted how I felt, it fitted my practical reality. But in my case that was a reality of no shared kids and a remarried vanisher.

It’s normal for brains, especially traumatised brains, to chew at things like a dog with an old toy. Our brains are wired to believe that if we can figure it out, we can either fix it or we can prevent it from happening again. Essentially that we can keep ourselves safe. And I think that’s why we also go round and round the circle of ‘was I stupid/delusional/blind’. Bc it’s a bit scary to take your hands of that control/knowing tiller and accept that sometimes things happen that we can’t foresee or fix….that some things are not knowable or predictable in that A therefore B way.

Again jmo, but digging into those almost existential kind of questions that are about so much more than a crappy spouse tends to alter our perspective on a lot of things, big and small. It challenges old assumptions and it changes how we see a lot of things as we move forward. It’s kind of like taking a house back to bare boards and bricks really. I’m not sure that’s ever an easy process for any human and we don’t always know where it will take us tbh. And of course there’s a weird sort of connection with the other person who often seems to have taken the choice to either slap lots of new paint up or indeed just move to a new house singing while leaving us surrounded by rubble and brick dust. We are not on the same kind of page as the MLC types, that’s for sure, and tbh I think the process gets idk not easier exactly but more sensible when/if we can accept that. Their story is no longer our story and vice versa, we do not actually know or understand them anymore or vice versa; our windows are fundamentally different now. And where that takes us, and them, is also unknown, at least for a while. And the unknown is scary too, isn’t it?

 I find myself sometimes thinking about Gisele Pelicot as an extreme version of this, maybe a lot of women do. I can’t comprehend this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr7vvj8gymyo, these men. I just can’t. I don’t see how her or her children can either. It’s beyond me. But nonetheless real, isn’t it? Or part of the bigger Real of human life. And it’s hard to know what to do with that even from a distance. To understand how such ‘normal men’ can think in ways that allow them to act like that. It’s just beyond me but I do get to choose what I think it means for how I see the world, and men in my world. How i infer a whole from terrible parts. Or not. Again in the spirit of keeping it simple and sane, I think I can only do my small part in saying Yes and No to some things, in acknowledging the Dark but choosing the Light as a compass as much as I can. Maybe that’s why so many of us are deeply moved by Mme Pelicot’s own choices?

With time and hindsight, I tend now to believe that most of my memories of what those twenty+ years were like to me were real. And I value them bc to me they were mostly very good indeed. I was real, my actions and thoughts and observations and feelings were real, and so my memories of those things were real too. Bc, fundamentally, I believe that I am not sufficiently stupid or delusional enough to be capable of imagining them for twenty years, that if there were big red flags to comprehend, I would not have seen them or felt them. At the same time, do I have my own blind spots and biases? Sure.

There are lots of things that factual objective evidence suggests humans can do which are just literally incomprehensible to me….but I know these things are real even if not in my wheelhouse. And that’s a bit scary and a bit disheartening to accept, isn’t it? A kind of Alice in Wonderland feeling for me, for sure, and not a very pleasant one. Those things certainly still make me wince years later. Am I better for that changed mindset? Idk. Tbh I sometimes rather miss my old days of innocence lol…but it is as it is and I am now as I am, maybe future me will evolve into something else, idk. Certainly there are quite a few things I used to believe that I no longer believe in quite the same way or experience in quite the same way. I don’t always like that, sometimes tbh I feel quite angry about having that ‘done to me’, but I deal with it by accepting my own new reality as kindly and gently as I can.

And part of that, again jmo and it took a few years to get, is that my story is not a shared story. It was. And then, rather brutally, it wasn’t. And I have no comprehension at all, zero, of what my then h’s vista was or became or is now. None. Only that evidence suggests it is different. So I had to figure out which bit of my reality still felt true if I excluded his eyes from it. If any of it held water independently. In my case, I found much of it did but a few bits I wasn’t so sure about and I had to find my own way to make peace with the gaps. It really is quite existential, isn’t it? Very Cartesian and a flavour of ‘if a tree falls in a forest without being seen etc etc’ lol.

What I also found helpful was to try to keep some things simple in the midst of such complexity. Do I trust that I know what it looks and feels like if other people value me or care about my well-being? I do. Do I know when I feel unsure about that, or when what people say is different from what they do? I do. I may not understand the Why, but I know the What. I can trust my own judgement about that. I may not like what I see or understand what someone else is thinking or feeling, but I do know the difference. And that is does not have to be so complicated to distinguish as others might make out. Or not to me anyway. If you behave like someone who values me and cares about my well-being and my needs, you’re going to pretty much consistently behave like someone would if they did. If you don’t, you usually won’t. My former h did for decades. And then he absolutely didn’t. That made no sense to me at all, but presumably it made some kind of sense to him bc he did what he did in the way that he did it.

No more profound conclusion after years of chewing than that lol. And that whatever his story was/is, it isn’t the same as mine. And that’s reality too. And that’s ok. Sucky to experience but ok in a weird way. My story, my memories, my conclusions from it do not have to rest on his. That’s an ultimate version of non-attachment, isn’t it? That what belongs to me still belongs to me. And to you, regardless of how I see it or your stbxh sees it or anyone else sees it. But it is a bit of a mind wrestling match so really not surprising that it takes a bit of time, right?

Going back to the whole blind spots/bias thing? Do I see things in my former h’s view on the world now differently than I did then? Well, yes, some. Things I thought of as minor quirks or acceptable imperfections. My former h had some different takes on the world than me, that’s true…a comfort with small lies to please or avoid that I didn’t have, a pettiness sometimes, an ability to hold a grudge, a need for reassurance and validation that was different from mine, a lot of messy FOO stuff that I saw but probably did not really understand., a kind of neediness. Things I accepted or explained away as normal hairline cracks that now I see more as bigger fracture lines.

Were those ‘clues’ that I should have seen differently? Maybe. But I didn’t bc I couldn’t. Until I did. Do I honestly believe that my life would have been better if I had? Idk. In some ways, maybe. But then it’s the path not taken, isn’t it? Would I have lost other things from my time on the planet that I value so much? Maybe, yes, idk. But I honestly do believe now that I could not have foreseen or prevented whatever it was that changed my h’s story and thus mine. Bc it didn’t come from me and nothing I did or did not do changed it. It genuinely felt like a big rock rolling down a hill and gathering speed no matter what I did. And that in itself suggested to me that it wasn’t my big rock! Even if I got rolled over by it, it wasn’t my rock. It was a rock that happened to me and around me, not bc of me.

It wasn’t my rock.
And that was just as true whether I saw my then h as pushing the rock, riding on it joyfully like a rodeo horse or being crushed under it too.
It still wasn’t my rock.

But I do have the right to decide what my memories and life were before the rock, during the rock and after the rock.
Bc not everything in my life then or now is about the rock either.

Let yourself chew on these things as you will until you start to see the glimmers of non-rock life in your own way and time, my friend. I wish we could make that easier or quicker, but we can’t. We can only sit with you acknowledging the reality of the Big Rock and knowing that you will find your own take on it. Bc you will. Bc life is not just about the Big Rock.

Interestingly, I find - and perhaps that’s why some of my posts are (too) long, is that I figure out what I think now by responding to others’ questions and reflections. So, thank you for that, for sharing your questions in a way that helps others including me think out loud.

I hope you feel better soon. Being poorly is a bit like Hangry, isn’t it, in that it can surface some bubbles of strong feelings, messy stuff? Normal. But of the moment sometimes even if it feels not. Xxx

[Treasur]

And in case it helps, quite by coincidence I heard this discussion this morning https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ten-percent-happier-with-dan-harris/id1087147821?i=1000678198948

I don’t know how much of what you feel and think right now falls under the umbrella called Grief. For me, a lot was and a lot of my challenge was about learning how to shuffle things around so I could find a way live beside it as honestly as I could.

[Trustandlove]

Hi, AM,

Just echoing what Treasur says; she says it so much better and more completely than me.  I, too, have struggled with the "what was", and the "what is".  In my case I did have to look at what was staring me in the face in order to be able to detach more, I also kept trying to push the square peg of what was into the round hold of what is, I did that for a long time.

I do understand everything you say -- I also miss what was, very much so, but it's not painful the same way any more, not the way it was. Just very sad.   The feeling particularly rears its head when other things happen, such as parental illnesses and the such, which is when it would have been so good to have the partner.  But on the whole life is now "normal", with all the usual ups and downs. 

I remember when the children were around 15 or 16 they decided to write him letters saying how they felt.  I didn't discourage them, the only thing I said was that swear words weren't allowed.  This brought out monster in my H towards them; he blamed me of course.  In hindsight I might as well have let my son use all the swear words he wanted, it wouldn't have made any difference.  I think back to that and wonder if I did right by "letting" them write, or if I should have then said "don't, it won't help"; or anything else.    It's very hard to say, and the reality is that there isn't a perfect answer.  It was what was needed at the time. 

They were often scared to tell him how they felt while they were growing up without him; I used to say that they shouldn't be -- after all, they told me very clearly and in no uncertain terms if they were upset with me for any reason, and they could do the same with their father.  But they did find that hard, they were afraid that he would distance himself further, which he of course has done regardless of what they did or didn't say. 

As young adults they have on occasion found the courage to say how they feel; it's generally fallen on deaf ears, which is hurtful to me, not to mention deeply cutting to them.  So they are choosing to distance themselves right now.  When we do talk about it I say more or less what we talk about here -- that it's OK, and that they can change their minds at any time. 

I think you are doing wonderfully -- your children will remember your love and care no matter what.

[xyzcf]

Reinventing "Yes and no. With time, I do have a different view of both how he and I were through the years, relationship-wise. Some things make more sense in the cold light of day and I can see things about both him and me now (good and bad)."

KayDee "So, yes, this, IMO, was always there, as a kind of hairline crack, and how my H dealt with the eventual collapse is part of who he is. It is not all of who he is. This is the reality. And for me, the image of my H as the rock solid man who would NEVER do the things he has done is false. And not looking at this straight on, it was hindering my healing, because I was trying to shove that round peg husband of reality into the square hole of who I thought he was. I had to grieve that."

In hindsight we can see that there were things that showed their brokenness, but they wore their masks well. We were not privy to their dark side until the crisis hit....the therapist we saw together twice nailed it..he told my husband it was time for him to get in touch with his dark side. I was devastated by that as I thought we were seeing a therapist to help us solve whatever the problem was in our marriage...not giving him permission to leave it. At that time, early after BD, I could not even imagine what he meant by dark side...my husband was an "upstanding citizen", kind and caring, living his faith, generous...my family and friends "knew" that I was a very fortunate woman to have such a gem in my life. I was not the only person shocked by what happened...close friends and family couldn't believe it either so think about this perhaps...nobody who knew them can understand who they have become.

I can analyze the 32 years and find things that suggested he had demons he was struggling with, but I will never really know, although I have suspicions ......he recently said to me " you cannot love someone else unless you love yourself".

Marriage has it's ups and downs. Several of us here have said that they never "fought" or really argued...having grown up in a family where yelling was the norm, I found it peaceful that we seemed so in tune with one another that we could figure out things without an argument...very grown up I thought. But I was wrong about that.

Flummoxed "I can’t speak to whether it’s necessary to imagine the MLCer in that light to move on- I’m still treading water myself. But I think it helps to accept the current reality and shift the perspective back to ourselves. I think that’s the thing that helps us move forward the most- shift the eyes and mind to focus back on our own lives. How can we improve our day a bit? When was the last time I met up with so-and-so? When was the last time I wore fun makeup just for me? When was the last time I bought flowers just because? Little treats, new experiences, fresh air and perspective- I think these help more to move forward than anything tied to the MLCer. Much like they’ve shifted their focus to self, that’s what will likely benefit us as well. And knowing that the future will be bright- that wondrous times are ahead, with or without this individual is also key."

It's a new normal, to do things that we once did together, travel, go to the movies, attend family celebrations...I still find Sunday mornings difficult as we went to church, had a nice breakfast, watched football..but...little by little we find things that bring us moments of happiness...the dreaded word "time"is the key...we keep moving forward...there is no way to predict how long that takes..it's very individual and depends several things.....the biggest help for me occurred 8 years after BD when I found a therapist that worked with me to resolve the trauma.....

Glad you are able to express how you feel....we are all able to relate and you have friends here to help you along your journey.

[amazinglove]

What an absolute blessing this group is! I am completely blown away by the great wisdom in here. You people are amazing. Thank you so much those of you who replied - they were each one of them, so incredibly insightful and really soothing to me.

It helps to hear what you've learned along the way. It helps to hear what conclusions you've come to. It helps to know that I am not insane. It helps to know that I am not alone. It helps to hear what you yourself struggled with, or are still grappling with. It helps to hear about your children's experiences. It all helps.

I am so sick today with Covid but this has been such great medicine for my soul. Thank you!

[Flummoxed]

💗💗 sending much love, amazinglove! I completely agree- what an asset this forum is! We are here to be chat it out any time- we all go through our ups and downs but there’s growth in the journey and that’s something we can absolutely be thankful for.

I came across a little post this morning comparing a new venture or transition to a new plant growing from seed. It will take time, and we shouldn’t dig into the soil to measure its progress. Rather, it’s all about managing what is within our control and then having faith that a little seedling will grow at its own pace. The foundational roots grow far earlier than the stalk or the leaves; progress is often not externally obvious until quite late in the game. I mean this in a very general sense, of course.

Wishing you a very speedy recovery!

[Reinventing]

We were not privy to their dark side until the crisis hit....the therapist we saw together twice nailed it..he told my husband it was time for him to get in touch with his dark side. I was devastated by that as I thought we were seeing a therapist to help us solve whatever the problem was in our marriage...

Xyzcf, just want to say that hearing this at a therapy session close to BD would have been like someone sitting and peeling off my skin. No matter what the therapist was seeing, saying that in front of you caused huge suffering for you. And what person on this earth wouldn't be able to grasp that, especially with your long marriage, kids, etc?

I get that you are relaying this story in a different context, but as a LBS, I just have to point out how hurtful that was.

[xyzcf]

Reinventing and all you lovely people:

Xyzcf, just want to say that hearing this at a therapy session close to BD would have been like someone sitting and peeling off my skin. No matter what the therapist was seeing, saying that in front of you caused huge suffering for you. And what person on this earth wouldn't be able to grasp that, especially with your long marriage, kids, etc?

Thank you.  As you know, those words can never be erased from my memory. This "therapy" session occured perhaps 3 to 4 weeks after BD.

We are here for one another, and the kindness shown by others really impacts us...even many years later.

[amazinglove]

You know, we try to make sense of the impossible on here sometimes and I noticed something today that is consistent with what some of you have described and wanted to share.
Today on the phone I told my stbx that at this time of year  I miss him and I love him. Sorry to have to report this bc I was showing so much strength but yes I did. I was even teary! Gaaaah.  But i was weakened from Covid and a few other really challenging and extenuating factors((.
i have all the divorce settlement paperwork to fill out on my desk - it’s brutal- and im seriously contemplating a home purchase on my own in another state - have that paperwork too on my desk!))  Anyway the point is this: he said I miss and love you too. I think about you a lot. After all this time I could not kill my love for you. It’s still there.” (Bear in mind English is not his first language and for some reason he’s reverted to speaking worse and more broken English, just like when he was younger! Also  strange) but then he named some things he’s been thinking about me and what he’s been missing. Here’s what’s crazy- all the stuff he said is recent and unimportant stuff (watching Yellowstone together), nothing of the past 15 years where we RAISED HUMANS together. The stuff I am missing goes back more than a decade of Christmas memories, and family togetherness, bringing our newborn son home from hospital a few days before Xmas etc etc. I am missing the man I knew and loved who no longer exists but did for a long time- but it’s like he has NO ACCESS to those memories!! His memories are only from since BD last year and they are superficial ones at that. It was so crazy to me that when he was admitting his own sentimentality it was not connected at all to our long and lovely history. It was only recent moments.
I really am starting to believe that he can not access the past. He literally cannot remember, or feel, or live with those memories in the present at all.
How is this not a mental disorder??

[KayDee]

I really am starting to believe that he can not access the past. He literally cannot remember, or feel, or live with those memories in the present at all.
How is this not a mental disorder??

My interpretation is that these deeper memories are too unbearable, too painful. He can't 'go there'. The way he is now, his thinking skims the surface layer. If (when?) the thin ice of his life cracks, and a big ol hole takes him - that's when he will fall into the dark depths. This ability to compartmentalize - actually, I think disassociate is more accurate - I think it is a common trait of a lot of our spouses. It's often learned early in life, to deal with difficult things.

[xyzcf]

Today on the phone I told my stbx that at this time of year  I miss him and I love him. Sorry to have to report this bc I was showing so much strength but yes I did. I was even teary!

There is nothing to be sorry about. Can we turn off love for someone because we tell ourselves to? I don't think so. Nor is it necessary for healing to occur. Don't beat yourself up about being "strong" when it comes to your feelings towards him, they are normal and you can embrace them because they are real feelings.

Remember, this is not about you or your marriage. It is not about his not loving you. We tend to look rationally at what they have done and assume that they do not love and some even tell us that..often saying they have not loved us for 5, 10, 15 years...but if we examine those years as you are, by looking back at pictures and the things said and done...we can see that this was not the case.

How is this not a mental disorder??

Although not identified in the DSM-5....many here would agree that the collapse of their being, the running away, addictions, dissociation, blowing up their lives, drastic changes in moral values, walking away not just from us but also from their children would suggest that this is a "mental disorder".....and the more you see them and the world they are  living in, the more you start to see the cracks and the extreme disorder in their lives.

I have always thought, just because he unfortunately had a crisis, doesn't mean that I shut off the love I have for him. It's not like a tap that can just be turned off... and since I am comfortable with that, it frees me from the what I think others think I "should" do or feel.

You are not judged here amazing and you are free to express what you feel....sharing your thoughts and feelings, getting it out can help in our own inner world of trying to make sense out of something that makes absolutely no sense.

[MadLuv]

Sometimes it is hard not to share your feelings, so you do. I don’t think it matters to much as long it is jot over the top and pressuring. On your stbx only discussing the since BD. That is also common. My now XH after BD would tell me when he was sometimes doing things he would think, madluv would like this, but could jot handle going into the past. That is that compartmented thinking to survive for them.

[amazinglove]

Thanks for all of those wonderful and wise replies! Wishing you all a wonderful Christmas and Happy New Year!

[amazinglove]

Well we officially got through Xmas and New Year's Eve, our first without their dad.

My goal was just to get through it without massive emotional drama/suffering and with those minimum expectations, I would say we actually soared. I did buy way too much for the kids for Xmas (VR headset, X Box) and I will happily put my hand up as an 'overcompensater", but I wanted to distract from the fact that this year was a painful milestone, and I have to say, it worked. No one mentioned him on the day. I am sure he was in the back of all of our minds, but no one, even my 8 year old, wanted to break the mood. I asked both kids if they wanted to speak to him on Xmas eve and both said no. I blocked him on What's App all week (he is still blocked) because it was too painful. He missed our son's bday, Xmas and New Year's, by choice - and so i just wrote to him, 'I need to block you for a few days, I can't bear your selfishness sometimes." It was as honest and kind as I could be. And it helped me immensely not to have his near daily check ins.

Unbeknownst to me, the day before Xmas eve, my D (11) reached out via text to her dad. Her words to him were unflinching and brutal (and reasonable) and I was so proud of her for expressing her anger to him directly. She has been angry at everyone and everything else for months. He just replied "I'm so sorry darling" but nothing else. Without him saying, I'm coming back to the US to be your dad, there really is nothing he could say that would make her feel better. But he's never had words. FYI she's not trying to get us back together - in fact she told me if you ever take dad back i will never speak to you again - but she wants him to show her that she's worth sticking around for. When in fact, right now, the truth is (crisis or no) that nothing and no one matters more to him than himself.

He wrote me and screen shot what she had sent and said he felt like he had fallen off a 100 foot cliff. He said he was devestated by it. I told him it was just a glimpse of the reality he's running from, the cost of the choices he's making - the love and respect of his kids. He said everyone warned him, if you keep going like this, 'you will lose your kids' and I said, well, I will never try to turn them against you for sure, and I will always encourage a relationship with you, but yes, you will. You certainly will. It was a painful exchange from my side. in fact the whole holiday was painful. I escaped to my room more than once to just cry. It felt like he has just walked away without a backward glance (well maybe a backward glance, he begged me on Xmas to pls send photos of the day) from our 15 years of Christmases together. Truth be told, I am still mourning the man I loved, I love still. I wonder if that will ever stop. Because he's not here on this earth now and I worry that I will never, ever meet him again.

Someone wise wrote on here that we come to this forum for more than healing our pain - it's to deal with our confusion - how did this happen? how can this happen? who is the person that is completely different from the person I knew and loved for years? My husband loved Christmas, he was devoted to me and his children, there is no where he wanted to be other than with his family - but now he sees being with us as akin to being in a prison and despite knowing he's lost me and is losing his children, like really losing them, he won't/can't turn back.

In one exchange I told him - when our son ( sends you a video on his own birthday pleading with you,  'daddy please come home', the fact that that does not make you book a ticket, run to an airport, get on a plane - that part of yourself - you need to take a hard look at. That has nothing to do with our marriage, that has to do with you.  But, as most of you can attest, nothing I say really lands, and certainly nothing bears fruit.

Last night on NYE, I saw couples in Times Square (on TV) kissing at midnight and felt a sharp pang. He is with his OW almost certainly, kissed her at midnight, and last NYE was their first trip away together (when my friend spotted him in Heathrow T5 and I first discovered he was cheating on me). Brutal. But this year, the bottom has already fallen out. I know where I am standing. I may be in the basement but I am sure of the ground under my feet. I am not where I was. I can't possibly know what he thinks about his new year, what he looks ahead to, what he's looking forward to - but I spent mine laughing and dancing with my 79 year old mom, my amazing badass prosecutor sister and my two kids. At midnight (we celebrate NYC midnight, our PST 9pm!) my son remembered I had bought glow sticks and I also had giant confetti guns. We unleashed it all. It was wild. My floor looked like a nightclub by the end. It was 3 inches thick in confetti and glow sticks. (148 of them) We blasted music and my daughter and son danced with us to their favorite pop songs. It was joyful. We all feel like survivors now. There was definitely no place I would rather have been.

One thing we did, which I had heard was an old Irish tradition (which btw my irish friends say they've never heard of) but we opened the front door and back door at midnight - to let the new year's good luck in and let the bad luck out. It felt particularly apt. There is so much I want to let out the back door of my life and so much I want to let in. I woke up today, the first day of the new year feeling optimistic and hopeful. I made banana waffles (they were perfection today), and took a moment alone to enjoy the beautiful SoCal weather/scenery and felt lighter than I have in a long time.

I am moving ahead with plans for a move -I talk to the realtor tomo and I think we've landed on a model and lot. I had a burst of energy over the break and tackled all the divorce /settlement paperwork, screen shot some relevant text messages, bank statments, tax returns, letters from school, etc - I need one adjustment from the mediator tomo and then I can drop it all off and hopefully get a court date in the v near future. I cleaned out his side of the bathroom cupboards this week too. Again, hard, a fair amt of pain, but necessary. And I am still standing.

One night over the break my daughter cried in my arms - she felt like I had rejected her or dismissed her in some way - and she said to me - "don't you get it, you're all I have now". It was heart rending. I gently reminded her that she has lots of other people who love her - but yes, she has me, and she has me forever, and I will never, ever leave her. And that we are enough.

[Flummoxed]

This was a beautiful update, amazinglove- it sounds like you all had a great holiday season overall! I felt that NYE pang too- but glad you pivoted out of that space and danced the night away with loved ones. Three cheers for your productivity and strength- amazing work!

[Treasur]

“But this year, the bottom has already fallen out. I know where I am standing. I may be in the basement but I am sure of the ground under my feet.”

And that is something, isn’t it? Well done you. And well done for shifting your eye to squeezing every bit of delight possible out of the festive season.

I don’t know if you make NY resolutions or goals. Lots of research about why these often don’t stick, so I tend to prefer intentions or a kind of compass fix. I suspect that one of the things you may find helpful is to continue to mostly keep him blocked on Whats App and really minimise those exchanges you have about his sadz though. Bc I’m not sure how useful it is with a little bit of time and perspective but it does tend to keep us emotionally engaged to some degree, doesn’t it?

It’s such a confusing and bewildering experience for both the LBS and the kids involved, a lot of layers to pick through. But I think most of us eventually get to a point where their sadz don’t carry the same weight. A point when it makes sense to simplify things a bit perhaps, to fall back on some of those old sayings. That sorry actually is as sorry does. That peoples’ feet tell you more about their real priorities than their mouths. That actions carry natural consequences without our involvement bc  cause and effect is a real thing lol. That you don’t have to hate someone to step away from what they bring to the party. That we are not obliged to try to make people feel better about causing us harm. That we reap what we sow with time. That feelings are not facts. That people have the right to plot their own course and captain their own ship, even those closest to us, even if we don’t like it….but we are not obliged to be passengers on their ship. That the things or people that hurt us are rarely the things or people that heal us.

Jmo but I think it’s quite rare that humans set out to intentionally hurt us. The simpler truth usually is that they do not care enough about whether they hurt us or not, that what they want in a given moment is more important to them than we are to them.

That’s not a very nice thought either, is it, that we might matter to some extent but not enough? That your stbxh might genuinely feel sorry or upset by your daughter’s words to some degree….but not enough to behave differently. That some bit of him might indeed miss those Christmas moments….but not enough to behave differently. The more we see that, painful as it can be to see how much or how little we really are a priority that matters to someone who matters to us, I think it gets easier to get to a point where their feelings about what they are choosing just generates a kind of internal shrug. When their sadz or sorry or doubt or wishes just don’t matter as much as they once did bc they do not outweigh their choices. And that it just isn’t our job to tidy up any of the natural consequences, to send pictures of a life they chose to leave or soothe their sadz or continue to prioritise their needs when they do not prioritise ours.

Tbh doing so in a way is even interfering in how adults learn from natural cause and effect, isn’t it? If you leave your wife and kids, it’s a pretty basic effect that you no longer have the same kind of relationship or role in their future lives? And maybe that’s ok or ok enough on balance for you, maybe that ends up being good for you, idk, I imagine for some perhaps it does. But it’s a simple law of life that you can’t make a big change in life that affects others without expecting a whole bunch of things to change perhaps in some ways you didn’t expect.

I don’t know why MLC folks seem to be so often a bit surprised by that or try to keep hold of some bits of what they had or imagine that everyone else just freezes where they left them, but it’s not uncommon that they do. We LBS usually can’t even if we want to for a while…events and reality usually force us into seeing that change brings changes. It seems to take MLC folks a bit longer to get that life works that way naturally…perhaps bc they work harder to avoid reality while we are working hard to find a way to accept it, idk. Some….although they seem to be few in number..  do eventually get there and find themselves wanting to fix some of what they broke but I’m not sure how anyone can do that without at least having to face the very practical reality of how things are bc of their own choices. And of course time plays a part in how many burned bridges there are….and how solid the new reality becomes for everyone else. It’s pretty difficult in life for all of us to squeeze the toothpaste back in the tube even if we really, really want to 😝

I hope though that your own 2025 toothpaste brings more and more good things regardless of how your stbxh squeezes his!

[Treasur]

A PS….the fact that your stbxh took the time to screenshot your daughter’s message and send it to you saying he was devastated suggests to me that he still thinks you are someone who can/should either fix something difficult for him or be emotionally supportive in some way to him. Can’t think of another reason why he’d do that tbh. Can you? He had other choices, of course, including how he responded to your daughter, but that was his response. Most of us LBS, with the benefit of hindsight, do tend to see that this was part of the role we played in our marriages….a combination perhaps of our innate caretaking instincts and their limited adulting capabilities.

We usually fail spectacularly to improve their adulting but we can choose to change things up by reducing our caretaking….

Some, perhaps my xh as a vanisher, find that caretaking fix with an ow replacement and stop looking for it from us; others maybe like your stbxh don’t get that from the ow so keep looking to us for it. But most of us come to see that there is an emotional glitch with these folks, a neediness in them somehow.

Still not about you or your kids though of course

It’s your choice whether you want to resign from that assigned role or not. Not uncommon tbh that MLC folks are surprisingly emotionally co dependent and poor at boundaries….but it’s ok for you to choose what works best for you regardless of what he wants or expects. I know you know that, but sometimes we all need to be reminded of what we know lol

I do wonder, in the spirit of keeping it simple, if our basic LBS boundaries are founded on a sort of ‘do as you’re prepared to be done unto’ basic reciprocity but just flipping it on its head. We LBS often say something like ‘well, I’m going to do x bc that’s the kind of person I am’ and end up dolling out way more than we receive. But if we turned that around to something more like a mirror? If our ex/spouse does not send photos of their Xmas hi jinks or even tell us where they are, why should we? If they do not act as a support to us, why should we expect that from ourselves? I suspect that most LBS boundaries are less about what we want and more about deciding to stop giving what we are not receiving beyond basic decency and legal obligations. And that plan probably depends on our individual situations, doesn’t it? But starts with the basic principle that no adult is entitled to receive anything from us if they are not behaving with some reciprocal respect or just bc they want it. Anything else is childish or just a disordered sense of entitlement…..neither are a good look on a grown up 😝

[amazinglove]

Hi all - just an update. I hope you all are cruising out of the January doldrums/dry season into a fabulous February. I feel like that's where I'm headed. I had Covid before Xmas and then I've just had a surgery on Jan 7th which has kind of been a double whammy on my energy levels and all around good time. I am still in bandages and sore but it was elective and I have no regrets (so far)- it will hopefully help my lower back and overall health.

So, the OW, the Moscow Mule/Super Gran reached out and requested to follow my sister on IG.

Now, this horror of a woman has only 4 followers (2 are my husband and 1 is his younger sister) and follows a grand total of 14 people so she is not exactly casually following all sorts and sundry. it was not a sublte move. Her IG profile is public but there are zero photos up. My sister puts murderers in jail and is therefore hard to find on any social portals (obvs) and you would have to snoop my husband's own IG feed to even be able to find my sis. Well, that old heifer did. My sis sent me a screenshot and wrote to my h and said 'Why is this woman who is clearly your 'girlfriend' requesting to follow my IG account?! this is ridiculous!" he replied 'I'm so sorry. This should be a terrible mistake. Please do not take it seriously."

to the expert analysts in the group: (and full disclosure KayDee has kindly already given me some incredible insight on this offline) here are my takeaways:

1) it's a message to me (I should add here, that as soon as I figured out who she was, I blocked her a year ago so she can not find me on IG or even see my profile pic and my FB settings are that if you are not my friend you cannot message me) that says 'I AM HERE. I am not going anywhere. I am bold and I am not afraid of you."

2) the fact that even after my sister confronted my h - the request is STILL THERE - says that my h is afraid to even to say 'hey my SIL was not thrilled by this crazy move you made - so just take it down" he has not even confronted her about it!!! or he has and she said no?

3) do you think she wants to send like photos or screenshots to make sure i never take him back? like to hurt me to make sure i let him go?

4) it's a message to my H that is a not veiled at all threat. leave me and i will blow this up. 

5) their relationship, based on lies and selfishness has bred mistrust and the house of cards is falling at long last.

let me say this - I know that this affair is not why we are not together. it is a symptom of a much bigger problem - his desire to be free of all responsibility, his lack of genuine care for me and the kids, his selfishness, his identity crisis etc. and even when this affair ends he and i should not be together unless he is a v diff human than he is now. and he has done none of the work to make that happen. i get it. but i also want this relationship destroyed, this monster out of his life and both of them miserable and punished every minute they are in each other's toxic company. she was part of the equation that blew up my life and caused me immeasurable pain - she is a schemer and i want justice. Whoever he is with next, i wil never have the vitriol for her that I have and will forever have for this one.

has this kind of thing happened to any of you? the OW got in touch not with you, but someone in your IMMEDIATE family? what was their motivation?

[Treasur]

Jmo, but yes…it’s a playbook type of behaviour.
And it’s about attention and/or control. Bc you were smart enough to block her and lock your social media down tight, she looked for another way to insert herself into your life.

I got months of ‘anonymous’ messages and threats. Others here have had OW contact them directly, even show up at their front door. I think I even remember a case when ow sent her own teenage child to the door as a messenger 🙄 Others, when the ow lived closer, have had her show up at local stores, send messages via ‘friends’ or family, or perhaps worst of all, use the LBS’s own children.

The disordered crave centrality. Attention. Importance.
If they can’t squeeze into your life, they want to be in your head. And often, from stories here, it is also part of a power play in their relationship with your spouse.

But I would not waste a moment on even musing on her motivation tbh. Bc if you do, she wins.
Just shut that s&it down.
If you’d asked, I’m not sure I would have agreed with contacting your xh about it. Waste of time from your PoV (as it was in my situation even when I got threats) and more importantly, it feeds the beast.
Nothing hurts these folks like being ignored and treated as insignificant to you and your kids.

And that’s accurate….she isn’t YOUR ow, she has no role in your life other than as a person that your stbxh invited into his. She’s a stranger to you and your kids….and a oretty strange kind of stranger lol.

So, behave accordingly, just as if she was some random weirdo stranger that tried to slide into your DMs or ypur sister’s in this case. Block, block, blockety block. And ignore. Give her no thought at all. And if she escalates, keep ignoring and take legal recourse. Sharing her V@g!n@ with your stbxh does not earn her a role in your life or the right to be heard by you or your family 😜  All you need to know, you already know, that this woman does not have good intentions towards you and your kids’ wellbeing. So just say a big fat No. (and perhaps assume that any message you send to your stbxh will also be seen by her bc well, control, and choose your words accordingly)

On the bigger issue of karmic justice….
Well, a bunch of us have struggled with that and it can keep us mentally attached to things that don’t serve us well.
You have to let it go. Sadly sometimes life doesn’t work out that way and these are not folks who see the world the way we do so our version of ‘justice’ doesn’t affect them the same way. The best that seems to apply is that their karma is to be them, and that playing s&it games produces s$itty prizes. In this case, she wins your weak man child and gets to financially support him until she dies or he runs off with a better/newer prospect. It’s often true here that we see karma play out but long after we care so much….that we see just how s&it the ‘prize’ was for both of them with time, that their real punishment is getting exactly what they created. There’s a predictability to that, to the karma of creating a new life based on deceit and self obsession, which usually means some version of reaping what one sows. But it usually works a bit slower than we might wish to see. Tbh it’s not uncommon that when LBS do see it, years later, it doesn’t even make us feel as good as we thought it might…it just seems like a rather sad bit of all round self-destruction at great cost to others for nothing much of value at all.

But that is THEIR karma.
Let it play out without ypur fingers in it or without the need to watch. Trust that the universe eventually usually follows the principle of poor fruit from poor soil. Much better to focus on your own karma and your own soil.. it just takes most of us a little while to get the hang of that and to work through the entirely fair and reasonable feelings of being helpless in the face of other peoples’ life changing harmful actions.

Hope you are on the mend now xxx

And a PS. Yes it’s weird behaviour. I have no doubt that, given your sister’s profession, she gets that and will be happy to blockety blockety block without much further thought 😜

[zartheit]

I've got a--perhaps too--abstract take on things. I found this style of looking helpful which is why I'm attempting to share it. Please discard anything that doesn't resonate.

So, the OW, the Moscow Mule/Super Gran reached out and requested to follow my sister on IG.

What I see here is someone you don't like sending a friend request to someone you do. Everything else is an implication based on a particular interpretation of some event in this towering causal chain. There is layer after layer all precariously balanced on one "minor" happenstance. Is this tower "true" and "accurate"? Who knows? More to the point, is it helpful? Is it worth it?

It takes immense cognitive and emotional energy to sustain these analyses. Why perform them? What do you gain from it? How does it serve you? Does you thinking 12 moves ahead on this emotional chessboard bring you closer to your goal of... what, exactly?

For me, I used the interpretations and empathic attunement as a way of maintaining some connection with my ex. It was a method for me to pretend and feel closer to her. Maybe if I could understand her somehow, as if by magic, it would bring her back to me. In reality, it was only maintaining an emotional rope around my neck. I was my own jailer.

i want justice.

I can very much relate to this. That being said, I also wanted my spouse to not leave. I wanted my life to go back to how it was. I wanted comfort, security, and to be understood. I wanted reality to be different.

Maybe this is a bit too far out there, but I don't "believe" in justice. Justice is a concept. Justice is an expectation. Justice is a thought. Why would justice "exist"? Where did I get that idea?

That isn't to say that evil is acceptable, but it is to say that people do evil things. I WANT justice, here and now. I want the scales to be balanced, and harmony restored. But why would reality "give" that to me? Why would that be granted? I personally found it immensely freeing to accept that people are going to do whatever they're going to do whether or not they "should", whether or not I want them to, whether or not those things are evil, wrong, or bad. My spouse betrayed me. That is her right, her choice. And given that information, what will I do in response? That is my freedom. It does not rely on anything that she does, or might do. I am free right now on how to respond.

All of that is easy to write and hard to live. I didn't have any children with my ex and so I can only imagine the difficulty in navigating that. Also, my ex was a complete vanisher so I don't have to deal with any active interference. The "worst" aftermath I had was puzzling why she didn't unfriend/block me and my family.

Treasur's words on karma and reaping what one sows is something that deeply feels true to me. You can plant corn or poison, the choice is yours. It is, in a certain sense, an amplification process. We can amplify whatever we want and I feel that everyone here has chosen to amplify beauty. At the beginning it is so faint that we're scared it might not be there, but eventually it bears fruit.

[xyzcf]

Covid and then surgery, that's a lot for your body to recover from. Even we when think we are better, there are still parts of our body that require healing.

And parts of our minds and hearts as well.

I agree with zartheit and Treasur.

The latest of having the OW on IG is a trigger to you. The list of "takeaways" may or may not be true. These are what you think could be the cause of her asking for a friend request but you cannot know what is in another person's head. You can only guess.

but i also want this relationship destroyed, this monster out of his life and both of them miserable and punished every minute they are in each other's toxic company. she was part of the equation that blew up my life and caused me immeasurable pain - she is a schemer and i want justice. Whoever he is with next, i wil never have the vitriol for her that I have and will forever have for this one.

My opinion concerning their affairs, the "blame" for their adultery lies solely with the MLCer. Yes, anger is normal towards the OW but she didn't cause the crisis. You don't know what lies he has told her about you and regardless, he is the one having the crisis and as you are very aware, the affair is meaningless.

My question...if you got what you wished for in the above statement, how will this make things different for you?
Will it ease the pain of the destruction of your marriage and family?
I have not had to deal with any kind of contact or real "knowledge" about his affairs, so this is just my opinion.

Don't focus on her, don't focus on him...I know, they take up way too much space in our head and we will go along and be fine and then something will happen to push their affair in our face and we lose it ...and it hurts like hell and we want "justice"....a wise priest told me at the begining of this journey "love must be free".

We don't own our husbands, they are the ones making the choices that hurt us, not the OW.

As you know, I don't totally hold our husbands "accountable" because the crisis is a "condition" that trumps any logical reason for what they are doing, we are collateral damage to their crisis but we do have control over how much damage they can do to us.

I can't find the exact quote (someone else might know it) but I believe it is something like this "let them blow in the wind and crack their heads"..there really isn't anything we can do to force them to "see" what their actions are causing...we must focus on our own healing and part of that means we have to let go.

[Reinventing]

Agree with not focusing on the OW, as conniving as she may be. The MLCer was the one who broke their vows and broke away from the family.

...we must focus on our own healing and part of that means we have to let go.

This is part of the secret sauce to coming out of this to enjoy life on the other side.

I say a neutral statement to myself that helped: "It was his time to go."

Hope that helps someone else.

Not that I have any love for OWs, lol.

[amazinglove]

I recognize that we spend a lot of time on this forum trying to analyze our MLC spouse and perhaps we should spend more - I mean def we should - on figuring out our own detachment and healing and leaving them to their crisis. For some of us, it goes against our instinct that if we can understand it, we can fix it. I realize I am like this with every single medical ailment that comes my way, my kids' way - I research extensively because understanding it takes some of the fear or worry out of it for me. It's almost a compulsion I have, to understand things that I do not.

Anyway with that as a preamble...my stbx, MLC H is in town and we had an honest conversation ydy - I mean to say, he was being honest ab how he feels at that moment, and for the first time really, he acknowledged to me that his mental health is not good. I was glad to hear that, because that has been obvious to all of us for some time, but I was glad he's finally saying it out loud.  Before this, he was not the problem, I was or our marriage was.  He is not doing anything about it really tho, he does not appear to have moved forward in any way (still running all the time, still with AP jet setting around) which is depressing actually - no progress!? - BUT was still glad to hear him say it. Then he said something, "Coming back here, the idea of moving back here, America scares me. I'm afraid to go back to where I was.'  My understanding is that he was referencing how lost he felt, how empty he felt, how overwhelmed he felt being so far from his home country, not having a role here, which lead up to this 'crisis' where he has become an entirely different and frequently repugnant individual.

Here's my question: what do you say to someone when they say this and they really mean it? What I actually said was 'I can see that you are in pain. But you have to understand that we are also in pain. Your children had and continue to have a lot of pain from your choices. They affect us all. But what can we do? We are all doing our best to adjust to this new reality that you are not here."  But I cannot reassure him that he would be ok to move back and try to live near his kids because he probably would get lost again. He seems so fragile, delusional and weak and being close to his FOO (sister/mom) overseas seems to be keeping him up and moving day to day. he even said something about his brain deteriorating, which is v v true. I don't even know if he is sharp enough to hold down a busy job right now. He can retain v little. This last month he was in Turkey, he even moved in with his sister because my nephew was home from college and he would have someone to be with every day. Then the OW represents his chance for adventure, these vacations, and freedom and she enables/funds him to have this other, fun, dopamine filled life. The kids and I represent family, stability, but we are a hobby, something he visits, almost a living, heart-filled memory it feels like. It all serves him. We are all there to serve him, yes I can see that's how he sees it. His narcissism is terrifying to me and I truly hope it's not forever but I fear that it is. He reiterated that he does not want a divorce and just wants to leave things 'as they are.' I am pushing ahead because I do not want this to continue.

So back to my question - when having a heart to heart talk with your former partner, do you bother trying to reassure them in any way? Do you say nothing and just listen? I am trying to figure out the best way to support him or comfort/reassure but also i will never say that what he's doing is ok, and I don't want to really support any of these bad choices either if that makes sense.

[Treasur]

I am trying to figure out the best way to support him or comfort/reassure

I would say that it is likely that your answer to your own question may be a function of your answer to why you want to do the above or see it as something it is appropriate or necessary that you should do……

Do you know?

[forthetrees]

My two cents is that acknowledging that you hear them saying, "...." or that you hear them expressing that they feel "...." is more than sufficient. Most people just want to be heard and it is unlikely that in the best of circumstances you could solve his issues. Under the current circumstances he is so UNlikely to take advice from you. It IS compassionate to hear someone and acknowledge their pain. Doing so does not mean that you agree to being the source of their pain though. For what it´s worth, my ex did acknowledge that something was wrong, went to a dr., took meds, went cold turkey on them and spiraled into a pit of bizarre. It just comes back to you didn´t break him and you can´t fix him. Acceptance of that takes a while and many reminders. Yes, it is really hard to watch someone devolve due to this. That alone speaks to the inner core of strength of the LBS. We go through our own painful journey AND get a front row seat to their mess as well. Sigh. The fact that he´s ok with the status quo also tells you a lot as why would anyone in your shoes want to continue to be treated the way that you are? You be you, be kind but don´t be a door mat.

[amazinglove]

To answer the question simply put, no matter what's happened I care that he is ok. I will always do my best to comfort him (esp when he's right in front of me in my kitchen) if I can. He seems sick to me, he is in pain and lost and I guess I want to do what's possible to help. BUT, I don't want to enable this, or say it's ok and I will no longer value his health or ease at the expense of my own. I will keep trying to find that balance - when he is not here and overseas I rarely speak to him and only about kids when we do. But  for my kids' sake, and really because of the love I will always have for him (and what we once had) I will always do my best to lead him in the right direction, even tho I know he's not hearing anything.

Regardless of the fact that he's ruined our once beautiful connection and marriage, I would love to see him restored in some way from this shell or husk of a man that he is now. I still get angry sometimes, at the injustice of this, at the betrayal, but mostly I am starting to see that his life doesn't really have much to do with mine anymore, and only crosses over sometimes because of the kids. What we had feels very much in the past but I still have love, just in a diff way.

[OffRoad]

This is going to sound odd, but it's not your job. Yes, you can be sympathetic but you can't fix him. And I mean that in the way that only he can fix himself.. And that is what you want to do. You want to comfort him so he'll feel better. That is fixing. You comforting him when he has no intention of changing anything is just putting a band aid on him.

Listen if you have the bandwidth, encourage any good behavior (Thank yous and such), be there if that is your choice, be kind if you choose, show him the life he's missing. But it's not your job to try to make him feel better.

[Reinventing]

But it's not your job to try to make him feel better.

I would go a bit further and say that the LBS can't, even if they tried to take on the job, fix them or make them feel better.

That doesn't mean you are nasty or mean to them. It means the LBS understand their own limitations that we share with all other human beings. You can't fix someone else.

[KayDee]

"Coming back here, the idea of moving back here, America scares me. I'm afraid to go back to where I was.'  My understanding is that he was referencing how lost he felt, how empty he felt, how overwhelmed he felt being so far from his home country, not having a role here, which lead up to this 'crisis' where he has become an entirely different and frequently repugnant individual.

Here's my question: what do you say to someone when they say this and they really mean it?

Just to point out, that he is still blaming something external. OK, yes, moving to a different country is hard - you know, you've done it. You have to resilient and optimistic. You have to, initially, be quite self-reliant. So, yes, I imagine this played a part, but I doubt it was the cause. He doesn't want to move back because he associates the place with the pain. He is scared.

What I really wanted to flag though, is that it is possible he is reaching out to you in this way, precisely so that you fix him. And I wanted to make the flag red, to warn you, because when you don't (can't) he will likely conduct another running manoeuvre. And it will be painful to you, especially when you reached out your hand in compassion. It is really hard to know what to say. I think listening and being calm is good enough, honestly. If you can manage it and stay sane. Wishing you strength....

[Treasur]

…..no matter what's happened I care that he is ok. I will always do my best to comfort him……i want to do what's possible to help. BUT, I don't want to enable this, or say it's ok…for my kids' sake…. because of the love I will always have for him…I will always do my best to lead him in the right direction….I would love to see him restored in some way……

Ok, so you’ve given yourself the gift of taking a look inside your own head 😜
Useful bc tbh the question seems to me to be more about where you are than where he is.
And seems to be hinging on perhaps an unspoken belief that a) this is ‘fixable’ and b) that what you say or do makes a positive difference towards ‘fixing’ it/him and c) that the love you have for him is best expressed by your playing a comforting leadership role.
Fair summary?

How has that worked out so far based on what you observe?
How ‘fixable’ do you think it is? And what does ‘fixed’ mean from your PoV?
How much or little effect have your words and actions had so far on his behaviour and mindset?
And why do you think it’s useful - or your job - to comfort or lead? In a sense, to think you know the ‘right’ answer?

These are squirmy uncomfortable questions that most of us find ourselves stumbling over, so you are not alone.

If I were being a bit harsh, I would say that your h is looking for three mummies…his real mum, Moscow mum and you, all of you potentially there to comfort, reassure, distract and tidy up bits of his self-made mess…..
Bc it IS a situation he has created and continues to create through his own actions, isn’t it?
And his distress or discomfort - the thing you are trying to comfort him about - is bc he doesn’t like some of the fairly predictable effects of his actions. It doesn’t feel so good to be him apparently. Adults know - or learn - that if you don’t like the outcomes, you need to change the input. And often we learn that by being very uncomfortable indeed in the place we find ourselves….not wanting to be Here is often the real driver of change, isn’t it?

I hope you can see in my editing of your words some of your own underpinning. I hope you can also see - and I am not doubting your assessment that your h seems lost and distressed - how very much of his commentary is about HIM. Not your kids, not you, not Moscow mule, not his own family, not anyone else. Just him finding the hole he dug himself for months/years rather real and a bit uncomfortable now, and he has no idea what to do to get out of the hole.

Let’s assume that’s all a true and honest reflection of how he feels, rather than a passive bit of victimhood designed to lure a fixer lol……
You might even find it helpful to reframe him as behaving a bit like an addict….he didn’t like where he was so he launched into his Plan A of self-medicating that feeling. Now he doesn’t like the results of that either. And has no Plan B, or not one he’s willing/able to work on. If he were an addict, what would you say or do? Would you feel you should comfort him? Or would you feel that him facing his own reality and figuring out his own Plan B was the only route forward? And that all his blah about countries and ‘roles’ was just more of the same addict-like talk and responsibility-shifting? (And if you’ve ever talked to anyone who has dealt with addictive behaviour in their family, I can guarantee that his behaviour and your questions are all too familiar!)

So, like many people in this kind of situation, your questions are all imho is not really about him….it’s about you, your beliefs and your perspective on what works and what doesn’t.
And yes, tbh, some level of comfort or reassurance giving IS enabling. It IS saying something is ok enough for you to still be in the game to some extent. It IS implying - perhaps in your own head too - that you can play a part in a fix. Or even that you know how to fix it regardless….and do you, really, if they keep doing what they are doing? Or even know why they can’t/won’t stop? Can anyone really be a comforting helpmeet to someone who has not reached a point of saying ‘Damn, I don’t like this hole and no one but me dug it, so no one but me can stop digging and figure out how to get out of it’?

How close to that does your h seem? Think 12 steps….where is he honestly? Bc to me, it sounds like he is not even at the first…just not much liking the view from that hole and hoping that you and everyone else will keep throwing ropes down until he figures it out!

I agree with others that few of us want to be a$$hats when another human is distressed. Well, not for long anyway 😝
That one can be respectful and kind enough to acknowledge that you are hearing them say that the hole feels pretty s$it and that you are sorry they feel in a hole. Even that, if they figure out a post-hole plan, you will hear them out if they want something specific from you which feels doable. Full stop.

Jmo though.
The questions - and your own role - are really best known by you. This is what boundaries are really about, isn’t it?

[Treasur]

And a practical PS, in case this all sounds a bit high-faluting and airy-fairy….

For the foreseeable future, from what you have said, your kids are going to be living in the US. Not sure if you are still thinking about relocating to another state.
What kind of parent does he intend to be and what kind of role does he see himself playing in their lives?
Is he planning to live in the same country as his children? And if not, how does he see that working?
And how does he intend to contribute toward the cost and effort of raising them?
What kind of relationship does he want with his children and what is he prepared to do in order to achieve that?

These are very practical and entirely reasonable questions to pose in the current circumstances that he has created.
And the answers are not about you and not yours to craft for him. Not yours to comfort him about or tidy up or fix. It’s not your challenge to fix or your plan to make, as I hope you can see.

What does he say about that? What’s his plan?
Bc that’s a very practical example of the limitations of comfort or sympathy or your leadership influence, isn’t it? Your kids exist, they have needs….all regardless of how he feels about himself, his life, his ‘role’, his other relationships, his own challenges.

So, what’s his plan? What is he putting on the table and what does he want to ask from you?

If I were a betting woman, I’d guess he doesn’t have one. Or not one that goes much further than ‘can you just keep the show on the road, fixer mummy AL?’ But maybe I’m wrong?

Having a plan regarding being a parent would be imho be a more positive sign of owning his hole and figuring out what he’s going to do about getting out of it. Anything less is just more of the same I haz a sadz and you have very little to work with practically speaking. Even if you are the best fixer in the world lol on the old ‘take a horse to water’ principle.

Is that worthy of ypur comfort? Idk. Is that something to reassure him about? Idk. Not sure how it helps you or your kids though again practically speaking. Or indeed that his feelings are the central priority that he seems to feel they are, maybe even that a bit of you feels they are. Kids still exist, still have needs, are still I would imagine your priority.

So in that very practical example, do you find an answer to your own question about comfort and reassurance and restoration and leadership?

[Trustandlove]

This reminded me of something -- years ago, when I had gone through so much of this, I did ask my former H outright how he saw himself as a father (perhaps I should have said parent instead), how he saw the role, etc. 

He never gave me a straight answer.  A year or so later I did get an e-mail saying "no more asking me how I want to be a father, they are over 18 for god's sake, and I (perhaps he said we) will have the kind of relationship that they and I see fit".  Basically getting angry.

For what it's worth, he has never had much of a relationship with them, and now has even less.  He recently invited them to a party that he is having, one son replied that he couldn't come and received a snarky reply.  The other doesn't know how he feels, he's worried that "other people" will think something if he doesn't go, but he doesn't want to go because he isn't OK with the situation (former H is hosting this with latest woman).  Former H didn't even sent this to my D, who lives further away.  FWIW, I did explain to him that what "other people" thought didn't matter one jot, what mattered was what he wanted.

So I do have to agree with what Treasur says; I also know that I offered that kind of comfort and reassurance for years, thinking that if I was good, nice, etc., that at least I was being nice no matter what he was doing.  That I was the safe haven.  It took me a long time to understand that it wasn't having any good effect, and that even if it wasn't enabling directly, which it probably was more than I thought, it certainly wasn't helping me or my kids.

I also know that I could only get there when I got there, for me it took much longer than for many others, but that is just how it is.  My kids still feel it all, they now end up getting snarky texts rather than me, which makes my blood boil, but I tell them that I am so sorry that he is behaving this way, and don't say word one to him. 

[UrsaMajor]

This is going to sound odd, but it's not your job. Yes, you can be sympathetic but you can't fix him. And I mean that in the way that only he can fix himself.. And that is what you want to do. You want to comfort him so he'll feel better. That is fixing. You comforting him when he has no intention of changing anything is just putting a band aid on him.

Listen if you have the bandwidth, encourage any good behavior (Thank yous and such), be there if that is your choice, be kind if you choose, show him the life he's missing. But it's not your job to try to make him feel better.

and

But it's not your job to try to make him feel better.

I would go a bit further and say that the LBS can't, even if they tried to take on the job, fix them or make them feel better.

That doesn't mean you are nasty or mean to them. It means the LBS understand their own limitations that we share with all other human beings. You can't fix someone else.

[MadLuv]

I agree with the others. If they (mlcer) is ever to make it through this it will be totally on their own and even though they may seem to at times want help I’m not so sure that is really what they want. They just like to know we are there. My XH after I discovered more lies when I was still trying to “be his friend” asked why he would treat me so disrespectful. He said, I was disrespecting myself. I said, but you weren’t just disrespecting yourself without disrespecting me. He said, I guess you are my security blanket.

You know what we think is helpful honestly they ultimately resent. They need to figure out themselves and we have to step out of their way. They have to make their own way. Good or bad. If they aren’t fully choosing a life with us then they need to not lean on the ones that they hurt the most. I think it does enable to them to just keep spinning. Took me a long time to realize all my so called help was not helpful at all. Not to him, the kids or myself.

[xyzcf]

When  having a heart to heart talk with your former partner, do you bother trying to reassure them in any way? Do you say nothing and just listen?

I agree. We do not fix them.

But, it need not be an “ all or none” decision concerning our response to them. I do not understand how listening to them or offering our opinion about what they are saying is “ enabling”. We always say that their crisis is not about us or our marriages and nothing we say or do will make any difference. Their crisis is going to proceed regardless.

What is important is what do you want regarding any kind of relationship with him?  You are right, your well being is the priority. That doesn’t mean that you cannot care about him and what he is going through. It doesn’t mean you have to erase him from your life, unless that is what you want to do. Always, your choice.

I do light the idea of being a lighthouse.  You need not pursue but when they show up at our door, what feels right? He has been in your life for a long time, you have children, you have loved this person…what comes to my mind…what would Jesus do?


Many years in, I am glad that I made the effort to keep the door open, he is welcomed to be in our life. I ask for nothing from him. I expect nothing from him. I have a good life and his connection to me doesn’t hurt my life. It certainly is very helpful for our daughter and for us as a family…which we always will be.

We ask for advice because this is such a confusing and unexplainable situation.  Looking inside deeply, I am still the same in my beliefs of how  to treat people, especially people I love. It’s not calculated, I did not follow any rules to get to this place of peace …listening to my inner voice, understanding the pathology of this “ crisis “ and seeing his distress…praying for guidance brought me to care about him and show unconditional love, agape love…I believe that love is not wasted on anyone, especially one that is so broken and struggling in their crisis.

[FrenchHusband]

[...]
Just him finding the hole he dug himself for months/years rather real and a bit uncomfortable now, and he has no idea what to do to get out of the hole.
[...]

Can anyone really be a comforting helpmeet to someone who has not reached a point of saying ‘Damn, I don’t like this hole and no one but me dug it, so no one but me can stop digging and figure out how to get out of it’?

How close to that does your h seem? Think 12 steps….where is he honestly? Bc to me, it sounds like he is not even at the first…just not much liking the view from that hole and hoping that you and everyone else will keep throwing ropes down until he figures it out!

I agree with others that few of us want to be a$$hats when another human is distressed. Well, not for long anyway 😝
That one can be respectful and kind enough to acknowledge that you are hearing them say that the hole feels pretty s$it and that you are sorry they feel in a hole. Even that, if they figure out a post-hole plan, you will hear them out if they want something specific from you which feels doable. Full stop.

Hi Treasur,

I really like very much the story of the hole, thanks to write it here ! It describes very well of a person can act and feel during a crisis. And, IMO, it describes also what may happen for the LBS sometimes. I recognize my old self during the first year after BD : it took me time to stop digging my own holes and figure out how to climb out of these holes.

For the rest I agree with the others regarding your H, AL : your listening is already a big gift.

[amazinglove]

Well a lot has happened in the past month.

The headline tho is that I will be divorced by May 14th. I had a virtual court appearance yesterday and I got everything I asked for - sole custody, all finances, the house, all possessions that are currently in my name are mine alone. The judge even suggested and added a provision that my h cannot take the kids out of the country without my written approval, and encouraged me to take legal action re child support. It was over in 15 minutes and the judge could not have been more sympathetic and kind. When I was speaking to his clerk to reschedule (the first court date was when my h was here, and my d had her tonsillectomy and it was all too much) she said 'we see this kind of thing all the time' - a husband (or wife I guess) that just walks out on a spouse and kids, shirking responsibility, living in an alternate reality, pretending it's not happening etc. I assume lots of those are MLC that she's talking about.

I feel kind of hollow and sick about it, but also better. Like a bone that was broken and misaligned has been re-set and put in a cast. It's stlll broken, in fact it's been re-broken, but at least it's lined up properly in order to heal. It was never going to heal the other way. I am aligning the facts of my life with the reality of my life. he is overseas again with his OW.  I am here in my home with my children creating solid ground for us all to stand on. This part doesn't feel good exactly, but it feels right.

I have thought a lot about why I check back with this group, why it matters still, why it has meant so much to me in the past year and a half. I've come to this conclusion: the confusion is so overwhelming at first, the suddenness of this complete reversal of character, hatred where there was love, eagerness to burn down an entire life and start over, betrayal and lies from an 'honest' person, and on and on, it's so much to absorb that you need to hear similar stories from others because you are questioning your sanity and goodness.

But after the dust settles, after you start to see the state of where things are, when you survey the damage, that is overwhelming in still another way. I mean at least in this stage you are not in a fight or flight mode, you are eating again, you can sit with your thoughts and read a book etc, but figuring out how to pick up the pieces of a formerly lovely life on your own, parenting without another adult in sight, losing someone you still have great love for etc. it's really painful. Hearing that others got through this, made good choices, moved on and met someone new, healed, no longer hurt, no longer wanted their ex spouse, that has helped too. And where I am now, I feel like i'm re-learning to walk or something. I am not strong on my feet but at least I am moving in a good direction. That analogy Treasur made to the story of the tortoise and the hare has been so helpful. I have felt like a turtle caked in mud for months now, while the hare ran off in a cloud of luxury travel and high adventure - but i'm starting to set a pace and round corners now.

When my h was here for the month of Feb, I planned it so I was gone the first week, and his sister (the one I like) was here for the last two  weeks.  It was the best visit the kids have had in a while and it was easier going for me too. Not so much time one on one - in fact hardly any - and no big serious conversations. I will continue to work out the best way to have my children see their dad, but I am learning things too. The last day he is here is always the same, he's horrible to me, and gets really negative and sour. It's his way to remind himself he's doing the right thing by leaving. He does it to me, but he also kind of gets colder to the kids - he finds all kinds of handyman work, or gardening work so he is busy and detaching. It's so obvious. I am learning this too and I will figure out how to better avoid that next time. I also realized that altho his sister loves me and wants nothing more than for him to drop his OW and go back to me and the kids, she is so biased it's unreal. She says things like 'a marriage breakdown is always 50/50' and 'you are both going through something hard' etc etc. That kind of thing really pisses me off. But he is her brother, and he's cried plenty in front of her, and she will always be his. I wlll not go to her for advice in future tho, or let her in to my own thinking. That door is closed for me, but at least we parted on good terms, i mean, for now. I am v aware that in future, when he is grindingly poor, when his kids won't talk to him or visit, I am v likely to become enemy number one in this entire family. I think they will all end up seeing me as some evil witch who stole the kids and poisoned them against their dad. It bothers me, but I recognize that it's out of my control.

Where my head is now- is anyone else reading Mel Robbins' new book, 'The Let Them" theory? I am listening to it now on Audible. I love the idea of this. "When you let them do whatever it is that they want to do, it creates more control and emotional peace for you and a better relationship with people in your life. And after you 'let them' - - you have to 'let me' where you look at all that lies within your own control in response to what's happening around you and focusing on that". It's another way of talking about Stoicism/ Radical Acceptance/Detachment Theory. We talk about it a lot in this group and why it matters, this book is a good resource I think. I like listening to her voice and I recommend it on audible.

So for me, I am working on this: accepting that I cannot change the way my stbx feels or thinks about me, that he has feelings for someone else, that he is not living as a good person any longer, my kids no longer have a good dad, and I still miss and love the man I knew for 15 years. But I CAN accept that what has happened has happened, something broke that will never be the same, and that my life is now radically different. it's no longer about what should be, or about what I wish it was, it's about what is now, and i think a neutral (and occasionally hopeful)  expectation of what will be.

[Treasur]

Thank you for the book recommendation - I’ll check it out and share around with any of my coachees who might find it useful.

A lot of this experience is kind of odd imho, once the shock and pain starts to subside, and I think you described it very well. One finds oneself in a place you never intended to be, with feelings that can be quite dissonant or strange for you, and looking at an uncharted path forward. That can be a bit discombobulating and also a bit liberating. It’s strange, isn’t it? What’s that Alice in Wonderland quote about believing six  impossible things before breakfast? It’s a bit like that imho….actually the world feels a bit like that right now…it’s the churn of disbelief that is so exhausting but there’s a kind of relief and peace in accepting that a quacking thing with feathers is probably a duck. It moves you from the churn of being a chaos player to more of an observer, I think, but of course one can’t expect that everyone is going to see it as you see it. We humans can normalise and excuse the strangest things…until we reach our own individual point when we can’t bc the duck is too visible to us. Lots of folks in the world are struggling with this right now it seems to me and it’s interesting to see how different folks find their own ways to do that when old certainties and norms shift so sharply.

Thank you for coming back to update. We’re here when/if you need or want us 😝 And imho it helps many of us to read updates from people we care about further down their own road, it helps to see a different kind of hope for a different life that can still be a good one. Glad to hear that you got all you and your kids needed legally and that, sad as it is to be on the receiving end of an unwanted divorce, it gives you a platform to heal and reshuffle how your family life works from here on. These folks create a lot of chaos and uncertainty, and it can feel rather nice to be able to step away from much of that and leave them to it.

Hugs from here x

[Treasur]

Listened to a podcast version https://www.melrobbins.com/podcasts/episode-70?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAApAMQlgUGMDhJ1KJvfCyr8oa_WrLc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0J-D9b38iwMVEpNQBh2ytRUSEAAYASAAEgKz7vD_BwE while sowing seeds today.

I like it very much - she gives some really good examples of how to put the principle into practice. Thank you for recommending it. We talk a lot here about things like detachment, acceptance and the habit of fixing and boundaries but how she talks about it probably makes it easier to ‘get’. And the simple phrase ‘let them’ is a winner imho!

[MadLuv]

I love the “let them” theory. Unfortunately, it was started by someone else and Mel Robbins saw an opportunity and took off with it. So, I have heard it is a great book, but it feels stolen to me and my standards wont allow me to support it. 

I’m so sorry for your divorce. This site definitely allows you to not to feel insane and time is still the biggest healer.  Once you can accept what is happening you then can start to move forward, but as most have said  in journalling a pain like this will stick with us forever. It’s a death. Truly a mourning of a person and a life.

[amazinglove]

thank you MadLuv and Treasur for the kind replies. They always mean a lot to me.

I had a good day yesterday. I did a training session in front of a larger group of clients and it went really well. They were v pleased with my work.  It was validating to do something that I am naturally good at and to know that it was so well received. It made me feel talented and accomplished. I am clearly still processing some kind of rejection hangover/betrayal trauma bc whenever I get external validation right now, it means more than it really ought to. But, in any case, it was nice.

I have ignored my stbx's messages for a few days and of course that has made him insane- gray rocking really does annoy a narc. Anyway i did eventually reply - it was ab the kids - but in response to his query ab 'how are you' i simply said,  "busy with home sale details. trying to look forwards not backwards. getting a bit stronger every day.". that was it.. his reply? "Im glad to hear that. I want you to always be strong. I am trying to be strong too." 

Please tell me you understand why that enraged me? I AM TRYING TO BE STRONG TOO?? are you for real? you took off and are traveling around in the lap of luxury with an old, rich granny who pays all the bills, and left me here with 2 kids to take care of on my own and a full time job, along with the betrayal and hurt I have (and my kids have) to shoulder, and you are trying to be strong too?

What should have been a straightforward follow up dr's appt today for my d's recent tonsillectomy took 3 hours in the end. The surgeon was running more than an hour late (no apology or explanation) and we had already arrived early bc I had to bring my son with me from school as there would be no one home when he got there. So, despite the fact that I do not have a 3 hour window for 'personal errands' in a day where I have a literal timesheet with billable hours, I will of course have to make it work. The headline is that my d is fine and cleared for all normal activities (including most importantly handball at recess and eating potato chips) but I nearly called my stbx from the waiting room to yell at him for saying those words. My sister talked me down from it thankfully. "he's crazy! why do you expect to get any normal response from him!? at least things are calm with him right now! do not call him- you will not get what you want etc etc" So I held myself back. Another, yet another, lesson in why less contact is better.

I think as we process the sheer unfairness of these runaway husbands (and wives), you AT LEAST want the narrative to reflect the truth, or at least some recognition that you are doing what you are doing. Like, yes, I stabbed you, and no, I shouldn't have done that, or yes, I'm not going to chip in on the giant dinner tab because I have no money and I apologize in advance that you are the only one paying the bill. Whatever. It sounds dumb but like, this crazy level of narcissism is just beyond insufferable.

[MadLuv]

They are the perpetual victims in the narrative they create. I do feel all truth slowly reveals itself to others, but they themselves have to reflect. It can drive you insane. Some times you get a little reassurance that others see whats happening and that in itself is a little sanity in the insanity. I just had one of those and haven’t gotten to journal on it.  Keep moving foward and maybe don’t give him “ your getting stronger “ give him no insight into your anything. When you do they find a way to tune it back to them.

[Treasur]

Hurrah for your sister 😜 we all need to borrow a bit of someone else’s brain now and then.

Your schoolgirl error imho (which I’m sure you know now) was to acknowledge his ‘how are you?’ by answering it. It’s such a normal question, of course, that we all use every day with people. Sometimes as a bit of polite ritual, sometimes bc we really want to know. Neither of these are probably so with these kinds of folks in these kinds of situations - I suspect it is more a door to ‘enough about you, let’s talk about me’ ha ha. But please cut yourself some grace for how plain weird it is to be dealing with people who are not so normal, much like Marvin described.

Next time imho either ignore the question completely (bc none of his business and he’s not a safe person to share any of your challenges or feelings with). Or go for the English style response of ‘Fine’ or ‘Busy’ which says nothing much at all 😜

Funnily enough, I had a nightmare a couple of weeks ago, really bad one that woke me up and left me hyperventilating a bit. Long time since that has happened. Can’t recall the details but I was in my old home and xh was there with ow and a whole bunch of her friends, and they were taking things from my house, going through drawers and cupboards, and when I called the police they said I was overreacting…..what I remember about the dream was that feeling of helplessness and surreality and being treated like I was the one who was a bit bonkers. How angry I was and how unfair and wrong it was. It was the feeling that made it one of the doozy kind of nightmares…and it took me most of the next day to shake it all off. I cannot tell you how grateful I am, irregardless of other life challenges, that the nightmare is not my day to day reality anymore! But some bit of my system obviously remembers it well, even years on….and as Marvin said, how one really can’t be exposed to too much of this kind of chaos and weirdness without it having an effect on one’s own well-being.

With a kinder eye - and not excusing your stbxh one jot for his self-created mess - I suspect some bit of him IS finding life rather difficult now. He didn’t want a divorce, I think, and it is a very real effect of his behaviour. Maybe he didn’t quite expect you to behave as you are doing, but thought you and the kids would live quietly in a cupboard until he wanted to play with you. All a bit grown up consequences for him, I suspect, plus these kinds of folks seem to major in self-pity like a marinaded fish. Well, when they are not busy with rage or bile or giddy indulgence of their specialness….but as you are probably saying to yourself more and more, ‘let them’…but you are not obliged to play or even watch the show 😝

Glad to hear your girl is fine. All the other single parents here get that reality of those moments when you are trying to get a pint of time and energy from a half-pint pot and that it is never easy. But they did it, you did it and in reality of course your stbxh would have been as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[KayDee]

Please tell me you understand why that enraged me? I AM TRYING TO BE STRONG TOO?? are you for real? you took off and are traveling around in the lap of luxury with an old, rich granny who pays all the bills, and left me here with 2 kids to take care of on my own and a full time job, along with the betrayal and hurt I have (and my kids have) to shoulder, and you are trying to be strong too?

You are enraged because it is enraging. Welcome to the (nearly )normal club. I have had those comments. My very, most favourite, was in the Honorable Email, when he stated that he wanted to be 'fair' - I mean, snort your morning coffee out of your nose -  Fair....? after all the (insert all the $h!tety MLC behaviours we have all endured). Well, I can tell you, I spent a whole therapy session ranting about that. I know now, that this is how my stbxH presents himself via email or text. In person he is an emotional wreck. In the olden days, I nicknamed this text-based version of him Mr Kit (his publicly Keeping It Together persona). I have read about shame-based behaviours, and, in my stbxH case, this is part of it. He is ashamed of that emotional wreck that he has shown me, but more significantly, he is ashamed of his behaviour. He cannot bear any of it, so he cements over it with the help of Mr Kit, oh, and the OW. This is her allure, she rolls out the 'you are a good person' skit, to dampen the flames of shame. Because when shame becomes unleashed, as it does in this kind of crisis, it is unbearable, and it needs to be re-contained.

Well, I am pretty much saying the same things as the others. And yes, it is effing enraging.

Glad your D is doing fine and that, unsurprisingly, you are an amazing at your job, despite IT ALL 

[amazinglove]

thank you for those wise and wonderful replies. I read them several, even many times.

I am marching along. The home is on the market here in SoCal and we are moving to a Nashville suburb when the school year starts in August. I have found a spot and we are building a house to be completed in November - and a nearby townhouse to live in until that time. It's so much to handle, mortgage documents, loan details, keeping this home perfect for viewings and entertaining kids outside on the weekends for open houses. I am overwhelmed, as work has picked up a bit too. But each day, I manage to complete most if not all of my tasks for the day and still be present and loving and there for my beautiful kids.

My STBX is right now living with his sister in his home country and working in her warehouse. It's back breaking work (I know this bc I have seen it) and altho I believe him to be pretty selfish/lazy at the moment, I am glad he's in there and working.  She is smart to put him to work like that and I think it's the best place for him to be. Physically exhausted at the end of the day, living with her and her husband and my nephew, never alone, in his home country and with a feeling of accomplishment at the end of the day. It probably helps him sleep at night. Meanwhile of course, I handle all his grown up responsibilities, and raise his children, while he lives as a teenager in her home. But, from what I have seen and understood in the past 18 months or so, I am glad he's there because it is making him a different version (I hope) or at the very least a stronger version of the selfish/depressed shell of a man he currently is. I want him healthier and less crazy for the kids.

What I am learning to get my head around tho is that I will always end up being the bad guy in his mind. No matter how nice or accommodating I am to him as a co-parent/ex. As his relationship with the kids naturally deteriorates, and when he finally notices that he has no real savings or money, it will all become my fault. Already he has made pointed comments about how i am poisoning my daughter against him in ways, or coaching her on what she says to him when she goes after him. Her anger is that he left, cheated on her mom, 'gave up on' our family and walked away from her and her brother. His response? Then you should all have just 'moved to here" - meaning his home country. We were not enough to keep him here, and we should have all followed him there I guess. Even tho he has no real salary, my son doesn't speak the language and no one, including him, wants them educated there.

So little is rational in their brains and you have to just kind of learn to take nothing seriously. You just listen and respond to words or just ignore words but you don't let anything color any of your own beliefs or perceptions because it's so dangerous to let them into your brain. You will go insane if you do! Nothing they say is based in truth and I think I have allowed myself to be gaslit in so many ways. I am now trying to unpick some of that and land in a place I feel is rooted in something I can really build on.

[forthetrees]

You are a force of nature with all those logistical skills! Wow- house sale, house build and a cross-country move in one calendar year- I am impressed. I suppose that is where one can channel anger energy in a productive outlet:) Once you move you may no longer feel like he gets to stay in the TN house bc it will no longer be the house he used to share. I imagine there will be a measure of relief in that as you will have your very own oasis. So, here´s to maintaining the umph to get you from CA to TN.

[beyondblessed]

AL, even if time seems to be moving at a snail's pace for your stbxh, you are growing by leaps and bounds.  That's a very good place to be, difficult though it may be at times.  Nashville isn't just too very far from me and has some really beautiful suburbs and tons of entertainment and activity, but will be a radically different environment I would imagine, than what you're accustomed to with your current geography.  I agree with what FTT said in making this place, that will have no attachments to your stbxh, your very own oasis.  Speaking from my own personal experience, that is also a great space to to be in, both mentally and physically.

[MadLuv]

Amazing that you are doing so Amazing!!!! It can’t be emphasized enough that these are large and wins you are accomplishing and you should be so very proud

[amazinglove]

thank you all for the cheering section! Honestly it means a lot. I don't see my progress as much as I see all that's left to get done possibly.

I am just back from a NYC work thing where I absolutely nailed it and was really complimented by both client and account lead - it made me feel like I am getting my groove back in a way. I have to fly back next week but that's more as an observer to a filming and the pressure is not on my shoulders to deliver the way it was this week. I'm so glad it's done.

I can feel how tired i am though. Trying to find time to take a break where I can.

Thanks again for the encouragement!

[amazinglove]

You know, you can be doing so well and then all of a sudden one day out of no where the betrayal hits you again and takes your breath away and you're like....how did this happen? how did I get here? It's really horrendous.

My son cried for him last night and was so anxious ab him. It is really hard to move on and detach when you see your child aching to have them back. Then, he called this am for the kids before school and I could tell he had left his parents/sister's home and was in our home over there and I realized he had company. This afternoon kids were home early and i spoke to him (bc it's my phone they are too little) and I literally heard her whispering LOUDLY in the background. He looked panicked and looked up at someone and I just hung up. He wrote me (but didnt' call back) 'what happened? did your phone die?" and i just wrote back, "Yep. Dead." and then I blocked him. I do not want to see his name or texts for a bit for my mental health. I am trying to put better boundaries into place that protect me. I can't live like this.

My heart is racing. It's so stupid. i KNOW he has a gf. I know they are still together. But them being together and in our home and knowing it's kids' spring break next week and there was no attempt for him to see them, and he's still happy with this old rich granny etc etc - it hurts. It still feels like my husband is cheating on me. And that's not crazy bc he IS. We are STILL MARRIED until May 14th. He has been extra nice to me lately and I wish this did not shake me so much. When you have little kids it's impossible to never see them and cut them off entirely. You just can't - but man, this is awful. And yes, I know I do not want him as he is, but he is walking around in the body of the man I married.

For those of you having someone at home with an AP I cannot even imagine how you cope. I was doing so well! Why do these knockbacks always come after you make progress?

[forthetrees]

Could have been a gut punch bc he initiated the call knowing she was there and did it anyway AND she took the opportunity to do a stage whisper to make sure her presence was known. It´s like a cat pissing to claim its turf on her part and your h rubbing salt in a wound on his part. You are the one who sees the sorrow in your son´s eyes so of course it´s gonna hurt like hell. You will bounce back and find your steady center again. Think of this as exposure therapy so that one day it won´t rock you.

[amazinglove]

I called HIM this afternoon bc the kids were in the pool and wanted to show him - but he answered right next to her! He didn’t have to answer or he could have moved rooms!
Power move on his part - look how my wife still adores me! She wants me back! And power move on her part - he’s with me!

[Treasur]

I imagine - other LBS here with kids will know better - that there’s a transition time when you are no longer trying to hang on to your spouse as a spouse but you are perhaps still trying to hold on to them as a parent? Hence the impulse to show and tell through contact.

My memory of why these bolts of reality still act like a gut punch and take one’s breath away is that it’s an in your face reminder of how really real your new still not so normal is. The good thing is that all of these moments, big and small, chip away at our sticky often subconscious denial; the bad news is much the same. Plus tbh, remember that you are tired and most of us are more emotionally vulnerable when we are tired.

 I agree with others about ow tendency to urinate on your territory, metaphorically speaking - it’s just their nature. If it weren’t, they would never take up with a married man with kids, would they? Still, for all that, the main agent here is your stbxh - he is the one choosing to live in another country far away from his kids, he is the one who is not there, he is the one inviting her into what was a family home there.

What have you learned from this experience, Amazing? (And you ARE amazing with everything you have on your plate currently) What do you think you will do differently in future as an xw and mother of kids whose father chose to leave and live a different life elsewhere? Bc that is the useful gift of these kinds of moments imho, how it pushes us to adapt to a new ‘normal’ in a way that evolves to fit what really works well for us.

PS again jmo, but something big and awful never entirely stops carrying a little aftershock, sometimes in ways that can catch our breath. Bc what has happened to you and your kids IS big and awful and not at all how you thought life would be. We KNOW it’s real, and I think in times of less contact it’s easier to focus on the new shape of our lives, but some tiny bit of our brain still gets poked by the shock when it’s in our face. I get exactly the same feeling even now sometimes when I see my mum - I KNOW she has dementia, I know she no longer really knows who I am, but still sometimes there’s a moment of shock and distress when I first walk in to her room. I make peace with that by telling myself that the shock is bc of how much I treasured what I had and what has been lost….and that leaves a sliver of attachment to what was which makes it hard to look at what is with an unvarnished eye. It’s normal bc it mattered so much. Whereas imho people who seemingly slough off long attachments without those moments of shock are not so normal. Jmo.

[forthetrees]

In the future can you take a photo or short video of the kids and say you´ll send it to their Dad? That protects them as well from possibly seeing his ow and feeling short-changed. It also preempts them from encountering a reaction that they were not expecting from their Dad. AND it protects you from any direct communication with him. If you don´t show up to the game, maybe all you´re entitled to are the highlight reels? Also, by just sending clips, it´s in his face as to what he has chosen to miss out on. When it´s a live interaction he can fool himself into thinking he´s actually parenting. I would only send a video or photo if your kids request it.

I agree with Treasure that the MLCer ho-hum attitude towards abandoning the family is not normal whereas your pain is normal. You have done the rational thing in response to your pain- divorce, financial decision to move, etc. You will reach the not my circus, not my monkeys level of detachment but it does take a good long while.

[Trustandlove]

amazing, it took me 10 years to make the decision not to contact him for any reason, not even if one of the kids ended up in the hospital.  Until that time I had still tried to at least get him to be a parent, but finally had to admit defeat, and realise that keeping on trying to do that was hurting me more than helping.

If he wasn't going to be a parent he wasn't going to be a parent. 

And even then it took ages for those feelings of shock and betrayal to die down and it's been years since that decision.  And even now when he does something that hurts one of the kids it comes back up.  But at least it's not as sharp, and it dies down quickly.  I don't think it can ever fully disappear if we have children, it's so hard to be completely indifferent for that reason. 

So whatever you are feeling is more than normal, for the record I think you are doing absolutely brilliantly.  As a matter of fact I think it would be odd if you didn't feel those things.  I still, after so much time, just don't get how this is all possible, even if I absolutely don't what the person that he is right now and I have built a good life. But, as someone here said, that person is walking around in the body of the man I married.  Although he hasn't taken care of that body as far as I can tell....