[StormChaser]

Thanks Emmy, UM and KiT!

UM - Don't worry about me being too hard on myself. I'm using the journaling to make sure that I recognize my own patterns and have a place to look back at where I've improved and where I can work harder. An example is that the fact that my W is a bit of a Disneyland parent can drive me nuts. I've realized that its such a small thing in the context of all that's going on, I'm able to totally detach from that and not even feel a need to respond or comment.

In fact, early on, before I knew what was going on, I made the mistake of wining too much with her - the R talks were epic - and non-productive! of course... So I've got that one licked for now.

Emmy - visions of Twister going through my head now thanks to that...

KiT - thanks for the insights. I find that texting is waaay less confrontational than talking with her, so at least there's that.

I know that I have my own journey just like she does, so this is just steps on the path right?

[StormChaser]

Hi STL,

Thank you for taking the time. I needed some time to absorb some of what you are saying and had a very busy week with work.

So here goes.

I found it fascinating that you found many of her comments as concern for me or supporting or respecting my opinion. It certainly doesn't feel that way, but more like cake eating. So I've been going with the assumption that although the words she is using make is seem like she is open and caring, it doesn't seem to feel like that at all...

It seems as though she was concerned about how you were feeling and asked if it was ok instead of just assuming it would be ok for her to stay there with you.  I would suggest just responding back next time what you want, aka yes, it's fine for you to stay or no it isn't.  You have indicated that you have set boundaries with her and it seems as though she is trying to respect your opinion.

I'm struggling with how she is respecting my opinion here. I honestly didn't care whether she stayed or not, although I was concerned that she would sleep in again (she has done that before) and she would be late in arriving at the house and I would potentially miss my flight.

She's projecting her own feelings at you, based on your description of how she was acting when you walked into the house. 

Actually, I didn't even see her for the first 20 minutes I was at the house as she literally avoided me.

I am usually quick and light in my discussion. I've never been a breezy, happy person, so to be that way now would not be true to myself and probably make her feel more uncomfortable. I am however civil and polite and for the most part, I don't ignore her, so I'm doing the best I can with my temperament.

I'd say that you already identified one of them when you introduced yourself, which was her saying that you didn't do things around the house for her.  This sounds like Acts of Service is her Love Language... May want to check out the book Love Languages (LL) as it may give you some insight into you and herself. 

Interesting that you brought up LL. Acts of Service is actually her second LL. Words of Affirmation is higher. Very familiar with this. I've tried to work on this as best I can. Since BD, I found out that when I try to work on words of affirmation, she feels that I'm being insincere, so it feels like I can't work on that at this point. As well, being a single dad half time now, I've been a rock star at keeping the house tidy and boys taken care of. Ironically, she has never talked my top three LL to me for the majority of our marriage... And she's the one that had the MLC!

The hardest thing I ever did... and do now... is just sit there and listen.  I had to chant in my head "Listen listen listen" every time I wanted to open my mouth.  The thing is, once I actually just sat there and listened... the monstering started to get less.   

This is great advice. I am trying and I will try harder. It has happened on occasion that I've listened. But still something that I need to work on - both in texting and real life discussions.

From me personally... I was complacent in my R.  Things were going bad and I didn't do anything about it... I didn't know how to do anything about it.  I also was a people pleaser, tried to make everyone happy... and for me, I just buried my feelings inside about everything because I thought that I would make my H happy by not arguing with him, by accepting what he had to say no matter what.  I didn't want him to get angry about anything, I just wanted him to be happy and I figured as long as he was happy that was enough for me to be happy. 

The thing is, by making that choice, I was complacent.  I figured that everything was ok and it appeared to be that way... but I didn't understand the signs showing that things weren't right.  I got so buried into my own funk that when I lashed out at my H and SD about 3 years ago, I didn't realize how dead I had gotten inside.  I almost lost my marriage at that point, but H and I worked through it and again, I thought everything was ok.  I started to change how I was thinking about things and getting help... but it wasn't enough.  And my H started to slide down his own journey into MLC and it took BD for me to really make the changes I needed to make.  Until recently, I didn't understand just how dead I was and how much of an impact that it has had on him. 

I'm not trying to excuse her behavior... just wanted to give you a different perspective on it.

Everything you said above is almost exactly what my wife has said or implied to me in some way shape or form of how she felt as she fell into MLC. As I may have said, she is a pleaser, and she buried her feelings as well. The difference is that you worked on the marriage, my W fell into an MLC!

Best thing to do is set boundaries that you can enforce about OM, such as no texting him around the children or me, etc.  Then leave the room or ask her to leave when she breaks the boundary.  If you tell her to have no contact with him, then you will just make her be more secretive about it and it will be more fun for her.  Remember that she's trying to feel SOMETHING inside.

The boundary that we not be friends as long as the OM is around is to protect me. I tried to just ignore it, but I felt so out of integrity and fake that I only lasted a couple days doing it. I know that the boundary should be something like what you say above, but we aren't actually loving together in our house. Our kids stay there and we cycle in and out. We have not been living together now for almost six months, so she can really do whatever she wants. There's no mystique or secrecy around it as she has made clear that continuing that relationship is more important than being friends with me... I'm ok with that, but then she continues to want to try and engage in friendly chit chat. I realize that I'm supposed to be kind to pave the way, but my feeling is that there is no basis for friendship when there is no respect, honesty or trust. She's not ready to work on any of that with me as she's still deep in the tunnel.

sounds like she may be projecting her feelings about her Dad onto her.

Exactly right, except her Mom's expectations not her Dad's.

Sounds like she is at least trying to understand your boundaries and respect them.  I would suggest to maybe revisit them and see if you can make them more clear and specific for her?

Just an observation here... I know it's hard, but being their friend in this situation is actually allowing for a soft landing.  When my H first started talking to me about MOW2 and the EA, he wanted to know why I was listening to him.

I've been pretty clear. She is trying to cake eat. It comes down to her wanting to have a relationship with me and continue to have a close friendship with the OM at the same time. I was willing to have a go at that after the original A. And we did have about three weeks where there was a lot of family together time, almost friendship, and I know that I started to have expectations because of it. Then when I found out inadvertently that she had restarted the friendship with him, I actually felt more betrayed than I did at BD. Here I was doing all the things that I hadn't been doing, and she went behind my back and restarted the relationship. I'm just not able to be sincere in a "friends" relationship with her while she maintains him as her closest friend. It's just possible for me, having tried a couple times, and that's why I have the boundary. It really feels like her saying that the boundary isn't clear is part of her being able to do what she wants. In fact, when she "broke up" with him at that point, I honestly empathized with her and consoled her. I had, after all, been through a bad breakup myself due to BD.

Overall, I found your responses very interesting as they were fairly sympathetic to my W. That isn't bad, but after I really started to find out how MLC worked, I truly believe that I was a little too sympathetic myself and she really did some aggressive cake eating. I'm needing to do a bit of a darker communication style to help me function in this scenario. Beyond this recent looooong R discussion by text, there has really only been communication about the kids for the last three weeks, and that's really helped me feel grounded and able to focus on GAL.

I have said in the past that I was her friend and I cared and knew she was on her own journey. But honestly, I'm pretty sure that 90% of what I have said and say to her just isn't heard because of MLC.

At least she is trying to do something to respect your boundaries that you have set.  That's something positive to take out of it.

I'm struggling with this statement as I don't see what she's doing as respecting my boundaries but rather testing the limits which seems more in line with how deep in the tunnel she seems to be... Yes she is pushing the boundary by "being too kind" but the reality is that it sometimes comes across as insincere or  self-serving for her rather than a simple act of kindness.

I'm not trying to dispute your wonderful feedback, just supply additional background about how I feel as we move through the process. Now I ned some sleep.

[Seeing The Light]

Hi SC,

I can understand why you feel that my responses are more sympathetic to your W and what you have shared about her regarding your interactions.  I did identify things in your interactions with each other that could give some indication of what she was feeling or thinking, basically giving you a different perspective of what was going on. 

The thing is, my responses are just that... my perspective on your story.  Only you and your W know what is going on with your R and how you feel about each other.  The great thing about this site is that when you journal how you are feeling or what you have been going through, it gives you a chance to get someone's observations on what's happening.  You may agree or not agree with the observations and that's ok.  I've found it helpful to get those observations because it forces me to think about my situation differently... and then take what I want or leave it.  That's the beautiful thing about choice.

What I have learned on my journey is to not read any intent in what my H was/is doing when he interacts with me.  I also learned to recognize the positive things that my H did/does and to show appreciation for them.  So, when your W asked you if it was ok if she stayed, I felt that this was a positive thing... because as we both know, MLCers do NOT have any consideration for us while they are in the tunnel.  The simple fact that she asked you this instead of just assuming it or doing whatever she wanted seems to be a positive thing.  Giving a simple answer and then thanking her shows her that you appreciate her consideration of your needs. 

This doesn't mean that you don't have your own concerns about if she will follow through... of course you do!  She's in the tunnel and they can't remember their commitments or what is going on daily.  Old Pilot has this as part of his new message to everyone... "Believe nothing your MLCer says and 50% of what they do."  So, you continue on with your plans as though she won't show up, and if she does, then that's great.  If she doesn't, you've already made your plans and taken care of things, so no problem.  That's also part of GALing. 

Regarding Cake eating... here's what I understand based on what I've been reading from RCR's articles.  Unfortunately, an affair is part of what happens with MLC.  My H had a PA with OW1 and an EA with MOW2.  PA with OW1 took place while I was deep in my own funk.  I wasn't having an affair myself... but I was dealing with a lot of my own issues during that time.  Was I working on my marriage?  No.  Not at all.  I was trying to climb out of the trench that I had dropped into and part of what snapped me out of it was that my H had threatened to end our M at that time.  This wasn't BD as was identified on here... he just couldn't deal with me being mentally absent from our R.  That's when I started to move forward... but I thought I was saving my R by doing so.  Thing was?  that was also the beginning of my H's MLC.  So as I started to move forward, he started moving into his own crisis.  Hence the affairs.

BD was simply the catalyst for me to get the real help that I needed and to get better.  Why am I mentioning this?  Because the affairs happen with MLC.  It doesn't mean that it's ok, it isn't at ALL.  It's a choice that they make.  Now, when my H indicated that things were going bad with his OW1 and MOW2, I did NOT console him.  I just listened, used the time to send truth darts as need be, and left him to deal with it.  Because I understood that he was going through MLC and that the affairs could/do happen, I could accept it.  I didn't like it, not one bit... but I accepted that it was happening.  Did it make me angry?  Absolutely.  Did I want to tell him to break it off?  Oh HECK yes. 

The MLCer is in chaos, constantly.  And the affair partner contributes to that.  So when we talk about being the lighthouse or being a soft landing, it's just about showing them that we are calm, we are happy, we are moving on with our lives while they deal with that chaos.  It makes us more attractive to them and they slowly start moving forward to us.  Soft landing or lighthouse just means being the calm in what's going on around them... which is where my being a friend to my H was so important.  It was hard... so very hard... to sit there and see him acting like a teenager with the OW... texting, talking to each other, etc.  But I knew that he would move through it and I just kept the thought of being the lighthouse in my mind.

That's what Standing meant to me.  Standing for me was to give me time to heal myself... it wasn't about working on my marriage, because the marriage, as it was, is dead.  Standing was working on myself to work on those things that my H said that stung.. that meant there was some truth to them so I need to work on them... or let them go as not mine to own.  I wanted to be healthy and happy for me, not for my R.  Because there is no guarantee that there will be a R in the end. 

Your W is not capable of working on your marriage right now, not with the chaos she has going on.  So, if you are Standing, which it sounds like you are for now... work on yourself.  Make yourself as healthy as you can be, that's really what Standing is for.  It isn't about your marriage, it is about you.  GALing is about getting out and doing things, finding those items about yourself that you didn't use to do... but it's also about taking care of your needs as well.

Ok, really long post, sorry about that.

[StormChaser]

Hi STL,

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer what i said.

Of course you are right that only we know what's going on in our own head and what our own perspective is on the R or M. And conversely, nobody, my W included, knows whats going on in her head!

I think the thing that's troubling me is that there are some things that my wife does that are definitely "on script" and there are others that I can't ignore and make me wonder. And the problem is that they aren't monstering or spew, but "nice" things that are definitely not on script.

An example, right now, at this moment, she has texted me about our upcoming custody schedule for our kids. There is one night in two weeks that I have a hockey game. She is out of town for work. She has asked about 5 different ways if I want her to fly back that night to watch the boys to go out. She works in the travel industry so the flights aren't a cost, but that's a lot of effort to do something that is just for me. It is what my W would have suggested pre-MLC.

So before this wouldn't be so strange, but one of the things she monstered to me about significantly was how much hockey I played and how she felt neglected because I put hockey before our R. She has spent the last 20 minutes asking in different ways if I would like her to help.

I've been assuming she's still deep in the tunnel, but this doesn't strike me as typical behaviour for that. Any guidance that you all can provide me on that would be helpful!

I also had the chance last night to spend the evening with some good friends of ours. A couple the same age who have kids that are the same age as my oldest two. We've done many things over the years together as couples and families. It was the first time I had a chance to spend any real time with them since BD. They hadn't had any details as they had only seen my W a couple times since BD as well - and she's not sharing much with anyone. So I gave them the highlights, without mentioning the OM and talked more about where I'm at instead of about her. I also spent some on thinking about how long W has been "in" MLC. I realized that she likely started to be depressed in or before Aug 2015...

She is coming over tomorrow to help put up xmas decorations at our house. She suggested I do it myself with the kids, but that wouldn't be right for them (and for me) so I've invited her to be part of it.

All that to say that I'm feeling ok - not cycling, but sure confused about what she's doing.

[OffRoad]

It definitely gets confusing. While mine lived at home he would bring me Slurpees, Jersey Mike sandwiches, rolled tacos, things he used to do before BD. I put no stock in any of it, but still thanked him profusely.

My take on the hockey thing? She made a big deal about how important hockey was to you. I see this as two possibilities:
1) If you take her up on the offer, it proves you are willing to put her out for hockey, and she has proven to herself she was right.
2) She knows you didn't really put hockey first and is trying to prove to herself that she is reasonable regarding your hocky playing.

As you can see, those are opposite ends of the spectrum, only my opinion, and it could be any other reason she has offered. You just can't know.

Those are just my thoughts. But if it were me, I'd get a sitter and go to your game. You deserve to play hockey. The kids deserve a content father. You deserve to have a night to yourself without over thinking why your W offered to help, or getting yourself in an MLCERS pickle because you might have been set up to fail by taking her up on the offer. Take the offer if it happens sometime when it isn't massively inconvenient for her. But thank her profusely for the offer. Simply take care of it, say how much you appreciate her offer, but that you have taken care of everything.

BTW, it is my opinion that most MLCers  had been heading for MLC long before BD arrived. We either didn't  recognize it, or thought we could "fix" it.

[StormChaser]

Hi Offroad

Thanks for the feedback.  The weirdest thing about it was how insistent W was to help. 

Anyway, W came over to help with decorating the house and tree today. It was like normal, just like before BD when it was good.

She was kind, warm and helpful.

We went to my S9's basketball game as a family and to the mall for pictures with Santa for the boys. We let the boys do some Xmas shopping as well. At one point, my oldest S11 says to me "it's nice to be out as a family isn't it?"  I shut him down a bit so he didn't get too "up". But later, when I put him to bed, I explained the difference between hope and expectations in a nice, patient way. He says to me "well mom said it was nice." 

At one point in the afternoon as well, my W says something about always waking up at 4am. Sounds familiar to what denjef and others have suggested.

The only weird part about the whole thing was when she left at the end of the night. Just because it had seemed so normal. So the job for me is to enjoy the fact that it was a nice day with positive feelings for me and the boys. Then to expect nothing, to believe nothing and to keep moving forward with my life and needs. Oh and to keep hoping because that's a good thing...

[StormChaser]

Journalling again...

So the weekend went very well considering that it was the first extended time we have spent together as a family since the start of September. I'm avoiding having any real discussion around her. I'm working really hard to not build any expectations off of that and to instead just keep on with my program of GAL and being the best me I can.

Our S6 is having some issues at school, so I had to go with her to the school today over noon hour. After the meeting, I had to swing by the house to pick up a few things and she is chatty - obviously misses having me as her "friend". I was polite, positive, but didn't get too into it because, I'm honestly a little gun shy, and she hasn't made any move towards remorse, whether its in what she says to me or her relationship/EA with the OM. I'm glad and proud that I didn't start any R talk and I didn't get sucked in.

Now, a week of my own. Well, almost my own - still have to watch the boys tomorrow night... but mostly my own haha!

[KeepItTogether]

Having those "normal" moments can sometimes create a little havoc. I tend to move right toward expectation when they happen, but learning not to read anything into them anymore. Nice dodge of the R talk Storm!

[Seeing The Light]

Hi SC, checking in!  I agree with OffRoad's advice.  Plan your outings as though she isn't there, cause after all, she isn't there.

Regarding the script vs nonscript things... I know that for me, when things happened that made me go "WTH just happened?" if I read the script, then I would understand what was going on.  Even your H being nice to you is part of the script... at least it seems that way to me.  It's along the "touch and go" piece.  She wants to make sure that you are still there, still around, so you get sweet loving person.  She peeks out of the fog briefly, then dives right back in again.  My H would do that.  His cycles would go on a weekly basis once I started looking at the pattern.  He would do something very nice for me or be loving to me and then for about 5 days stay away from any interaction with me... or as much as he could with him living in the same house. 

Gradually the amount of days that he would distance himself would decline until finally we started to reconnect.

I enjoyed the normal moments when they happened and then went on with my life when he went back into hiding.  They occasionally did cause me to be upset, like KIT says, but eventually, I just took them as they came.  It sounds like you are doing very well in handling those moments that happen, too. 

[StormChaser]

Thanks KiT and StL,

I think the one that really threw me was her telling S11 that she thought it was nice to be out as a family. Her doing things for me I can chalk up to guilt, but that was different.

And last night, after she got home from her night out with the school moms for yoga and drinks, I did let expectations make me a bit sad that it was just the usual "thanks see you later" and nothing more. But I'm going to refuse to make the first step to talk about R or anything else right now. I can see the things that Den talked about going on for her. She's not sleeping, she's looking at me differently, she's treating me differently. And I'm just doing my thing... She has to make a first step towards something more than this for me to actually believe its more than a touch and go and that she wants to reconnect. And, because we aren't still living together, I've got the space to manage the little bits of sadness that still intrude.

To be honest, I'm still a bit worried about the EA with the OM that I understand she maintains through online chat. I know its doomed (and she probably does too deep down - again thinking back to Den's insights) but I don't know if it has run its course yet. I know that as long as she maintains that R she's still in replay so I can't lose sight of that.

So all that said, I've strived to be that lighthouse. And I'm starting to feel better about myself, to feel that I'm moving forward and to be ok with myself and my place in all of this. I'm not letting my W get in the way of me being happy. After all, she's the one looking for happiness - I know what joy is for me...