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Author Topic: My Story Reconnecting Working it out 25 - the final stages of the old and early stages of the new.

S
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Quick recap for newbies

BD March 2013 LIYBINILWY   OW discovered a few weeks later
H stayed at home but continued affair with OW for 3.5 years  (legally couldn't kick him out without selling which I was not prepared to do)
3 grown children at time of BD (24,22 and 15)  Hit S 15 the hardest and his life spiralled downwards with severe depression and anger and attempted suicide whilst at Uni. Now he is addicted to mild drugs and cannot hold down any form of paid employment.  Two Ds coped well and were a valuable source of comfort in my times of need.
5 months after BD started therapy which included EMDR and use of NLP (neuro linguistic programming) and after 18 months I was in such a better place for my emotional health. I am still in touch with her and occasionally do a life skills top up
2016 Took early retirement from the career I loved (having been bullied for 4 years by my boss) and since then I haven't looked back.

2016 - 2020
my oldest D married and one year later divorced her H ( it was one of those relationships that many of us knew wouldn't work out - just gut feeling)  and now she is with her new partner and he is a keeper.
My youngest D produced my gorgeous grand- daughter. No longer with the father but both co-parent really well
S - slowly beginning to work on himself and move forward with his life but it's painfully slow....

I retrained as a life coach, specialising in NLP but am not a "master trainer or practitioner" - still very much a student. I also teach and coach privately. 

2017 - 2018 reconnecting started in earnest with OW gone. But H not ready to commit and still talking about living on his own.
By 2019 - no change to how H felt and so plans to improve the house for sale

2020 Covid 19 nothing changed except for H developing an unhealthy interest in his business partner with whom he has an absurdly close level of communication.  Red flags.....

2021 - H has massive stroke - I become his carer until he is able to return to work a few hours a day and has begun to drive again very recently.  Business partner is like an OW but this time it's an EA and I have had enough.

This is the update post to start my thread. Next post will be more about the current situation.

Last thread
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11497.0;all

Previous threads in order

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3584.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3720.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3791.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3880.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3977.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4168.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4362.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4460.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4554.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4632.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4942.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5199.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6277.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5753.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6715.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7192.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7942.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9188.0
 http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9495.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10371.0;all
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10501.0;all
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10813.0;all
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

S
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As I write I am finalising my offer on a property for me. H now has a house to go to. 

In short we are separating.  It has been a long time coming but it is necessary for a whole host of reasons.

I debated starting this new thread for some time. Here I am with a reconnected spouse and yes we are reconnected just not reconciled and we are separating.  That doesn't make sense I hear newbies say.....but it does.

My H doesn't want "us".  I thought I did but now I see in my H a broken man (not just because of his stroke) but a man who is incapable of seeing and valuing what he currently has in his life aka 3 children, a grand-daughter and a wife who stood for her marriage for over 8 years.  He is a man who still seeks external sources to make him feel better. He is a man who has become afraid of commitment, who is pre-occupied with his own health.
That said, I have had the words of regret, the remorse, the heartfelt tears of apologies. I have had the pleading for forgiveness.
 We have had many open, honest and tearful conversations about what went wrong - what he did, what he said during those early MLC years. His memory is sort of shot about much of the specifics.
I believe he really does regret ever starting the affair and causing us all so much pain and anguish. But he is not prepared to want to restore the marriage.

I remember reading somewhere in RCR's notes that when the MLCer "wakes up" some MLCers will not return to the marriage. They will not completely walk away and never been seen again but they know that the marriage is not for them.

This is where my H is I believe and now (at long last I hear some of you say) I have pulled the plug on "us".

I might be using this thread to go into more detail about the conversations we have had to help give people more information on that process of the MLCer moving out of the tunnel.
I might just use it to journal my thoughts....

Anyway - suffice to say I am ok with it all.  I will be very very very sad to leave this house which was meant to be my forever home and it will be probably one of the most painful things I have had to do since BD.  However I know I cannot move forward anymore where I am, new chapter syndrome - just hard to finish writing the current chapter.......  Hence the title of my thread.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Just wanted to acknowledge your courage, Song, and I hope your new house will be a delightful new chapter for you.
Presume that your h’s house is a different house  :) And your son?
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« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 07:23:35 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Dear Song,

Your honesty is so very welcomed. Your experience with this will, if you can continue to share be very valuable to alll on HS so I look forward to future updates.

Although moving from your home into your new home will be difficult, it will also clearly define that this is your house....although I stayed in the house we were in before BD, this is very much my home. He never returned here to live so I don't have the ghosts lingering, especially because we had not lived very long in this house before we went overseas.....

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My H doesn't want "us".

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I remember reading somewhere in RCR's notes that when the MLCer "wakes up" some MLCers will not return to the marriage. They will not completely walk away and never been seen again but they know that the marriage is not for them.

My husband doesn't want "us" either, except on the periphery in the most superficial manner. Unlike you, he has never once, not frigging once in 12 years expressed anything verbally to me about what happened, not a frigging word of any regret/remorse/shame/guilt/sadness...to me this is totally unnatural and surreal.

I don't expect that he ever will.

I was listening to something by Dr. Joe Beam who is a well known marriage counsellor and he was talking about the reasons why people leave a marriage. He stated that very rarely, and he emphasized rarely, someone leaves because they just want to be by themselves. I suspect that is the case with Mr.xyzcf......but then, I don't have any idea really about his world.

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but a man who is incapable of seeing and valuing what he currently has in his life aka 3 children, a grand-daughter and a wife who stood for her marriage for over 8 years.  He is a man who still seeks external sources to make him feel better.

I don't understand it. There is nothing that I value more than time with my family. We recently spent 4 days together as a family and he certainly seemed to participate fully, and then out the door he goes. At 67 years old, life forward is going to be a struggle....as our health deteriorates, friends die and we can't do some of the things that once brought us joy......I think that the isolation of COVID also taught me.....there are things I want to do, so do not postpone them.

You have wanted to have a place of your own for a very long time. Some peace in your life and so you have made the right decision for you and no "apologies" are necessary (aka:I have pulled the plug on "us".) It's Song's time now although I suspect there will still be place for your husband in some capacity and for that I truly admire you and the care and concern that you have shown him.

Looking forward to hearing more.
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« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 07:28:21 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Quote
but a man who is incapable of seeing and valuing what he currently has in his life aka 3 children, a grand-daughter and a wife who stood for her marriage for over 8 years.  He is a man who still seeks external sources to make him feel better
This is always the hardest thing to wrap my head around. Can’t imagine what is better than your own family you created. You just have to be a lost soul. My XH feels deep shame, misses his family, want’s it back, but says he changed and can’t get back to that place. Never feels anywhere is home. It heartbreaking where there head space is.

I also have remained in our home. I think it would be right now healthier to have a new space, but I have also been told the longer you remain the space becomes your own. I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer. Enjoy your new home song. You get to create a new space for your new life. You did everything you could to keep your family together. Nothing can be done when you work alone. It takes both. Keep sharing your story as you move forward and thank you for documenting it for all this time. It’s been invaluable to all our journeys.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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Attaching....

Do you then still consider yourselves "reconnecting" despite this? What do you see for YOUR future, say in the 5 year time frame?  If H is still off to the races with an EA with the Work Partner, what do you see happening?

You went in with your eyes WIDE open so you at least were not taken by surprise..... and now, taking the leap of faith to your own place... I hope that it brings you joy, peace, and comfort, and that regardless of whether H comes out of the fog someday or not...
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
1 Dog
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

Survival Instructions for Newbies
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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Acknowledging your pain and courage and love, and I’m following along in your new chapter.

D and I recently moved from the place that was Home, and are now in a different and meant to be temporary place, I don’t know for how long. It has its pros and cons but I think you may also find that wherever your next place will be, it will be peaceful on some crucial level and good enough, home at least For Now.

I spent the majority of my life believing in marriage and wanting nothing more than I wanted to be a loving wife. Now that we have moved prematurely into a transitional space, I find I don’t want that so much anymore, or maybe at all. Marriage, I mean. The peace of ...”turning the page”, I guess, is finally very calming and feels secure. I do: I feel secure. Anyone I know in person would panic if faced with the circumstances I am in, but — I’m ok.

It’s been a really long time since I last really viscerally felt that peace, and I’m glad to feel it again. I hope yours will meet you right away and accompany you every moment from here on out. (((HUGS)))
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Song, thank you for continuing to come here, to journal or to share your story in whatever capacity is most helpful for you. I appreciate your contributions and I know that many do, but first and foremost, the content of your posts should be what helps you move forward.

Though you’ve been preparing for this next step in the process (mentally, emotionally, financially, logistically) for a long time, I’m sure the reality of it will be a bit jarring. In the long run, it’s an essential step in building your best path forward, though. You have shown great strength and courage and perseverance throughout these years, and are continuing to do so in this next stage of life. Wishing you all the best with the new chapter.
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S
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Quote
Do you then still consider yourselves "reconnecting" despite this? What do you see for YOUR future, say in the 5 year time frame?  If H is still off to the races with an EA with the Work Partner, what do you see happening?

I think in a way we have reconnected in that we talk to each other more honestly and clearly than ever before.  The subject of being married and what that means to him eludes him though and that I think is why we haven't taken the next seemingly logical step of reconciling.

If H continues to be off to the races with any other EA then I now have the capacity, space and time to detach fully and truly focus on myself. That might mean a whole host of things - it might mean someone new in my life, it might not. I am not worried about that aspect anymore.  Ultimately it means that H will finally understand that I'm not there to be his fallback default position. I'm not around to feign interest in what he does or says and he has to face his life alone because that was the choice he made via OW way back in 2013.

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I hope that it brings you joy, peace, and comfort, and that regardless of whether H comes out of the fog someday or not...
This!

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It's Song's time now although I suspect there will still be place for your husband in some capacity and for that I truly admire you and the care and concern that you have shown him.

Thank you. I'm not a vindictive person - never have been. Yes I've been very angry, yes I have kicked the metaphorical cat hard, yes I've wanted the OW to suffer and struggle but I've never done anything physically to ensure that that happens.  No FB posts, no telling H what I wanted to do to him or her, no planning to create huge issues for them both, no wanting H to suffer financially etc.....

I learned through this forum very early on that my emotional/mental health had to come first. I also really liked the phrase of "being gracious and dignified". I owed it to myself.

When he suffered his stroke and became critically ill earlier this year, I had to decide if he lived because that was the option the consultant gave me.  I knew that I would have to be the one to fight his corner and he ultimately survived a very tough 48 hrs  I am puzzled that some responses I got from outsiders was that that was a brave decision and they wouldn't have fought so hard.  I cannot understand that. 

Whatever H did - he is still a human being with feelings, thoughts, hope and dreams. He is the father of my children.

He may be an utter arse who has thrown away his values and lost much of that which was right for him but he is still a human being. 
I have no problem acting with grace and kindness because that doesn't mean weakness - on the contrary it means you develop inner strength and you respect yourself. 


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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

5
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I will always cherish your words.

5hil
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Welcome to your new thread Song.

So sorry about your house. Glad things are moving forward for you though and I think being on your own for a while will be pretty fine.

One thing we have proved as LBS’s is that ‘we can do hard things’.  Let us prop you up when you need it, we are all so proud of you. You have been gracious and dignified throughout.

Rose 🌹
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Married 15+ years with 2 children
BD1 - 2016
BD2 - 2017
BD3 - Sept 2019
MOW Mar 2016-Jan 2018
OW2 - Feb 2019, age 30
H left home Oct 2017 to stay with his parents
Bought a family Puppy mid 2018 - referred to as ‘P’

Link to advice by my mentor, Phoenix, on what to tell the children about H leaving - reply #33 (it had a glitch)
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9313.30

b
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I am sorry Song that it all ends in a final separation after all this time.  You and I both had BD in 2013 and it is almost impossible to believe how long lasting the consequences of that BD stretch into the future. Eight years of struggle and no doubt you hoped for a different outcome. So did I . I wonder why some MLCers have this mysterious "awakening" ( so they say) and others seemingly do not.  That many of us might experience a whole "new man" after it is all said and done and others....not so much. I hope your new home turns out to be the best thing , all warm and cozy and safe . Its rather exciting in someway and at times I have had wonderful daydreams about being on my own free of drama and a MLCer.  I wish you nothing but peace, a content heart and a happy soul as you move forward. I just may find myself doing the same freedom venture in my own time. Its a start , not necessarily an ending.
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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Hey S&D  :D

What big things...... I'd don't think it's odd at all (separating). I hope you don't have bad feelings about that.... you fought the good fight, right till the "end".
Thank you for being so open about it. I really hope that this new phase will be really good for you, and brings joy and peace.

-SS
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W - 43
M - 46
Together 28 years, M 25
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019
Start of Shadow - Feb 2012

s
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I've followed your threads since I arrived here in 2016.  Thank you for continuing to share your journey with us. 

Most of us understand how you must feel having to leave a home that you thought would be your forever home.   I hope you'll keep us updated on how things are going as you transition into this next phase.   
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BD: 1/1/16
Together 15 years - married 7 years
His divorce final 7/26/16
Married the OW

After all, tomorrow is another day.

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Song I think understand how you feel.  I have not updated my thread in ages, but I think I can so relate to you.

After my H filed for divorce in 2013 (bd was 2011).  We never really stopped seeing each other, even though I moved out into my own place.  We still did everything together. I felt we were reconnecting, which we were.

We remained in a relationship for almost 7 years afterwards.
Until I realized it was not working for me.  Yes he was out of his crisis and never found an ow, however I saw changes in him.

I still saw some selfishness he never had before and still some depression.

I saw the house I loved and left in disarray.  His priorities had changed.
I finally had to leave, that was 3 years ago.  My XH was just not the same man I married.

I still have love for him, probably always will, but the relief I felt when I finally walked away was huge.  Like a weight had lifted off my shoulders.  I felt so much more at peace with my decision and I never looked back or regretted it.  He was just not my old H anymore.

You may or not feel the same way after you leave, but for me is was the best thing I could have done.  It just freed me up.

I still have no desire to be with someone else, but my life is really good.  Will I someday meet someone else?  Perhaps..only time will tell, but for now I am happy.

I can only wish that for you, Song.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

S
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Thank you Thunder.

Much of what you wrote resonated with me.

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I still saw some selfishness he never had before and still some depression.

This is H. It has been hard to separate the post stroke depression from the MLC stuff.   

However he has started to spiral down physically too and it occurred to me that his mother had an underactive thyroid, our oldest D has an underactive thyroid - would it not be logical that the stroke along with his BP medication has exacerbated this in H.  It certainly explains his fatigue and lack of desire to do anything other than the JOB for several months before his stroke.

Blood test is set for today and if positive - this may be a good step forward for both of us.  Me in that I won't need to be his keeper and personal memory guide/taxi driver etc and him because he might begin to feel more normal once he receives the appropriate medication.

The house hunting is still going ahead - I pulled out of the last one - it just didn't feel right after a second viewing. It is said that the first viewing is with the heart, the second is with the wallet.

Anyway - chugging along and hoping that the sad, miserable and tearful H I am currently dealing with might have some of those issues resolved medically soon. It is draining my personal resources and my energies.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

S
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UPdate - still no house but the hunt continues.
We are looking to moving out of current property in 3 months and so I fear I may end up homeless unless I can find somewhere very soon. The last thing I want is to have to move in with H - that would be a backward step no matter how temporary.....

H's blood test that was done through the GP showed no need for further thyroid tests even though the GP agreed he was showing all of the symptoms of hypothryoidism.   So we have gone private and waiting for those results now.

H fluctuating between serious depression and mild - his self talk is appallingly negative and I have got to the point where I have lost compassion and told him that every time he says "how stupid or idiotic he is (or worse language) I will ignore him.

I am finding myself drained of energy and compassion and he has become incredibly clingy and angry too. 

On a plus note - work for me is going well and I am gaining new clients and pupils as well as having wonderful times with my adorable GD.  So rough with the smooth I guess.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Good luck with your house hunting. Sounds like you are moving forward with power and conviction. House hunting can be fun, specially when you find the right fit. I am fluctuating on making a move for a fresh start, but love the house I am in as well. It’s a difficult move, but I think a new place and fresh start once the decision is made can bring new life and hope. Thanks for continuing to share your journey
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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Songanddance just checking in. Did you find a home? How are things going for you?
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

S
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Hello all.
Prompted by Tornup's question I thought I would update you.

Just before Christmas I found a house that whilst not perfect or the home I had in my head - it is more than satisfactory. It has the space I was looking for - garden not so much sadly but it is near to my grand-daughter and near to my places of work so that makes life a lot easier.  It is also considerably cheaper to run (on paper anyway) and it is somewhere that doesn't need to have a lot if any work on it to make it liveable - it just needs tweaking to suit me.

S will be moving in with me before he moves down to the outskirts of a major city where he has greater access to the music scene and will be living with fellow musicians.

I have paid a fast track fee to the solicitors to get completion by the time we are to move out of here and since 1st January been absolutely blitzing the house of all the most unbelievable junk we have held onto over the last 35 years together as well as from our own pasts.
The aim was to clear all external storage such as sheds, loft, garage etc by end of Jan and then spend one week packing up the inner stuff such as ornaments etc..... as we hope to move jsut before the end of Feb.

So all systems go.

H - he is getting "better" in that at last he has found Anti depressant medication that has no side effects for him. He is meditating a lot - in fact he's at that stage that I went through with my post BD depression where meditation and positive mental attitude podcasts are almost addictive.  He has become much more helpful but I fear that owing to the severity of his stroke there is some long lasting possibly permanent brain damage. His short term memory is poor. He is physically quite weak - couldn't carry boxes in two hands that previously he would have managed with one hand.

We have talked - a lot. He has said that he will miss me. He still wants to be on his own and his business assistant who is most definitely an EA now, features heavily in his thinking.

I will miss him. I will worry about him because he seems helpless at times but then I have to tell myself that I contributed to that learned helplessness of his.  I fixed and fed and sorted things over the last 35 years. The EA does exactly the same - so I doubt he is ever going to learn to change his patterns of behaviour.

It will be incredibly hard to leave this house. It was intended to be our forever home and I clung onto that for the last 9 years since BD. In fact I have cried a little every night when I think about no longer living here. We were unbelievably lucky to get this house in the first place; it is one of those properties that when friends visit they are envious and call this a dream place.

Yes it is and it's now going to a young wealthy couple who have ambitious plans. Ironically some of their plans are identical to the ones H and I had when we first moved in but we didn't have the capital and then H moved into denial stage of MLC buying all the toys, cars and gadgets with the money that could have gone towards developing the house and then BD hit and since then money, effort, enthusiasm and our marriage dwindled away.

H and I have fully reconnected - we get on really well now -even better than we did when we first met. I am more honest and more direct than I used to be. I am still a minor fixer and conflict avoider but no where near the level I used to be. This is because I have learned to step back, evaluate what I could do at any given moment and move in and fix where and when appropriate. If I want to call something or someone out - I will but yet again that's because I choose when to do so.

Life will be very different and not how I imagined it would be as I hit a birthday milestone this year. I had envisaged something so different as we all had.
I will be on my own and I am ok with that. I have no intentions of seeing or dating. I need the next couple of years for me. I do not intend to divorce H and he feels the same. We have agreed to see each other once a week especially when I'm looking after grand-daughter so that he gets to see her too as his house is some distance away.

So a separation agreement is being drawn up as we divide the furniture etc and it still seems surreal and real at the same time.

This is not how I had hoped my threads would work towards but it is important for any newbies to understand that reconciliations are not guaranteed but  you can still have a happy ending.  Just allow yourself time.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Songanddance- thank you for the update. You attachment to your house is exactly how I feel about mine. I don't need to leave. But feel it would be better. Still cant decide. I love your arrangement of meeting once a week. That actually would be amazing. I miss my XH friendship and hope st the very least someday to get to that point as well .

You have been through a lot and fought for your marriage and who knows what the future will bring. Seems with the EA’s he is still needing some growth and awareness. Maybe it will come, but your right with desperate females lurking that will enable it makes recovery difficult.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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Moving date is ever closer now and the house is slowly being packed away.

H and I take our dog for a walk together in the evenings; it's a lovely place where she can run free and play.  It was H's solace when he was recovering from his stroke and he could walk a little. It has now become a place where he and I talk really freely and openly and honestly. 

As stated above, I believe  H has an EA.  it's his business associate and I am fairly confident (as are other people who know her) that it's one sided. However it doesn't stop her from being a fixer, rescuer etc of the highest order and worming her way into his thoughts. She is not whole either.

I became so sick of hearing (false name given here) "Z says this and Z says that" or if I make a comment " Z thinks that too" etc...... The phone calls have become increasingly private and he walks away; why would he do that if it were just business ( a business I have supported him in for 33 years) ? And I'm triggered.  I shouldn't be because I am the one who has asked for the separation but I am.

So a few days ago we went for the walk and he mentioned "Z" again.  I paused and said very quietly " Are you aware how much you mention Z and therefore how much she clearly pre-occupies your thoughts? "
He was surprised and started to become defensive - that was a red flag in itself.  At first he just said " sorry " as if it was a debate. I replied that it wasn't an apology from someone who spoke in the tone he used and neither did it show any understanding of the hurt I was feeling. 

I continued and told him that she had over stepped boundaries especially when he was critically ill with his stroke (and we didn't know if he would live). 
I told him that, the day after his stroke, I had phoned her to tell her that naturally he wouldn't be working for a while and that I would keep her updated so that she could make some business decisions.  I asked her to tell no-one other than use the standard "he's out of the office response".  Four hours later, I get calls from his two best friends, another good long standing friend asking about his stroke.  I was furious and texted her stating that it was not her place to have called these people because I was the wife and as next of kin those decisions were mine.  She too became very defensive and that too was a red flag.
H's stroke happened during the second lockdown. No one could visit H in hospital so he was ringing people.
I told H that she has begged me to allow him to phone her because she didn't want to lose his trust as she had gained his confidence.  I explained to him how inappropriate it was the number of times he and she had been on the phone whereas I might get a brief call at 9pm just to update me on his day. He asked how I knew and I said "Z told me!  and that she would often text me about how much he had called her but wouldn't disclose what had been discussed"  That shocked him too.

I told him I was triggered because his behaviour with Z was almost identical to his behaviour with OW all those years ago.  That stopped him in his tracks - then I knew I'd woken him up. He started to listen as I pushed forward with my reasoning that the boundaries were blurred, that both of their behaviours were inappropriate at times, the constant messaging (especially in the evening) and the need to walk away when she was on the phone were all bang out of order. 

I said " I appreciate how hard she has worked to keep the business going but at times it's almost as if you're married to her (that's how much you talk about her and her life and family) and so this is also one of the reasons why we have to separate. If you cannot sustain appropriate boundaries and divisions of behaviour then I don't want to be part of it  "

He became very contrite and apologised much more effectively.

NOW I must  make it clear though that what I said might have seemed controlling and I can totally accept that because I am a bit of a control freak.  It is perfectly possible for friends to work together and to become close and to share information about families etc but there is a fine line of what is appropriate and what is not. In my view H and Z have breached all of those boundaries.

I asked him to just bite his tongue every time he felt compelled to mention her name and to take note how often that happened and then to pause and consider how appropriate it was to bring her name into our discussion especially if it was about our family, finances or us.  And he was also not to discuss any of those aspects with her.

Whether it will work is debatable but I had my say and it felt good.
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 08:18:21 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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I’m glad you felt able to speak your mind, Song.

Quote
NOW I must  make it clear though that what I said might have seemed controlling and I can totally accept that because I am a bit of a control freak.  It is perfectly possible for friends to work together and to become close and to share information about families etc but there is a fine line of what is appropriate and what is not. In my view H and Z have breached all of those boundaries.

Fwiw, no, didn’t seem controlling at all. Seemed entirely reasonable to me that you have a problem with Z getting a voice in your life and that of your family and friends and finances, uninvited by you. And that you are not much interested in her opinion or interested in discussing it. Fwiw too, from the cheap seats, I heard red flag noises when you first mentioned her and that her/his behaviour was not normal or appropriate....ha ha it might just be you and me, but I thought it might help to know that it isn’t in your imagination or unreasonable.  :) Your PoV may change of course when you are living separately....you may just care less or have much fewer conversations with him.....but please know that Z and him have crossed more boundaries imho than an Olympic Gold Medal Boundary Crossing Team  ::) They may not care much about your opinion, of course, but you are entitled to speak it anyway!
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 02:42:23 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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I have been following along on your thread and only wanted to second what Treasur said. It didn't sound controlling to me from afar either, rather a very clear statement of facts, observations, needs and boundaries. And from here it sounds you don't have much if any expectation that it will change anything, which is great. But I for one believe when someone like your H is in a place where they can actually hear what is said we owe them clarity and truth. This is SO different than "truth darts" or passive aggressive controlling statements trying to make ourselves safer.

For his own sake I hope he really heard what you said.
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No Kids, 23 years at BD1 (4 years), married 21
First signs of MLC Jan '15
BD 1 Jan '17, BD 2 Mar, Separated Apr, BD 3 May,BD 4 Jun '18
First Sign of Waking up-Dec '17, First Cycle out of MLC Mar '18-Jun ‘18, Second cycle Jul '18-??
Meets OM Jan '17 and acts "in love," admits "in love" Jun '18, asks for divorce Jul '18

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Soundanddance- I also thought your conversation was perfectly valid and not controlling. I went through this with a one side EA my husband had. His traveling companion/co-worker. She called herself his work wife. He became obsessed. I told him conversation, sharing etc. all took away from time and conversations and energy from our relationship.

I did have the fortunate ability to talk with her. She knew he was not himself and “she thought “ she was helping him. What’s crazy is he now lives with someone else. A 4th OW, but his work relationship with the unreciprocated EA OW is back on friendly terms. I think once boundaries are crossed they should never go past work convos again. The EA OW was getting something out of it. She liked being in the know of things and thats a slippery slope for both.

You H has to accept and realize this is not appropriate. If he doesn’t you are correct in realizing yourself that the behavior will continue with her or someone else as he is still looking for outside sources and no marriage can be a marriage of 3 .

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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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I did not think what you said was controlling at all and I am very happy that you are able to say things to him and that he actually listens.

Good luck with the move Song!
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Been following along. If it is a one-sided EA, then does that make her one those OW who are in it to "win" some sort of game?
I hope that her influence has and will have no bearing on the family finances in the near and long term. Seems highly likely that once you are in your own space, your energy will not be siphoned off in this way and you´ll be able to build yourself a rather comforting and nurturing existence and ... thrive. I get that his sudden severe illness caused you to suddenly be in a different emotional and supportive place. Now that he´s back on his feet and continuing to invest his energy in this woman, you are not obligated to be his Florence Nightengale champion. It will be freeing to be in the headspace of, "Not my circus, not my monkeys."
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me 51
H 51
M 27
BD 1/15/ 10 then BD 8/21/10
D final 8/13

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Songanddance;

Sorry about the situation, but I get it. Even though H and I are reconnected and moving forward, there is a place in my mind that wonders what would have happened had we gone through a separation. (Other than him moving out during his OW phase  :P)  Working through this is very, very hard and exhausting. Even now..... ::)

As for your son, mine is going through the same thing. He was 8 when H started taking him on their "dates" (and this was before BD), introducing him to ow and her child and telling him to keep it a secret from me for over a year. Now S19, has PTSD symptoms, anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideations. The thought of getting a job sends him into a panic attack and an almost fetal position. Its frightening to watch, not to mention heartbreaking. The damage MLC does to a family and to a spouse can be irreparable. Trust, respect, safety.....all of these are destroyed by their selfish actions.

((hugs))Thank you for listening!
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Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

b
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Quote
As for your son, mine is going through the same thing. He was 8 when H started taking him on their "dates" (and this was before BD), introducing him to ow and her child and telling him to keep it a secret from me for over a year. Now S19, has PTSD symptoms, anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideations. The thought of getting a job sends him into a panic attack and an almost fetal position. Its frightening to watch, not to mention heartbreaking. The damage MLC does to a family and to a spouse can be irreparable. Trust, respect, safety.....all of these are destroyed by their selfish actions.
.

This is just so hard to read..just heartbreaking honest to god.  To take a boy of 8 an have him to have secrets from his mother...? I cannot believe anyone would see that as OK. I know that Song's son struggles at times as well and it really must be extremely difficult to reconnect ( or whatever phrase) when the damage in our children is still present and it was H that created it. Thats hard.  My girls were much older but my youngest ( who was at home ) absolutely has signs of PTSD . I have spoken to her many times about it and she does understand some of the triggers and her reactions...I know because I see it in her. It has helped to talk about it and connect the dots into her awareness . Many hours we have worked  thru this.  I am "hoping" she is ok and nothing rears its head later in her life.  She is a 3rd year PHD student, works as a ft teacher at a private school and I have NEVER seen her drink or do drugs.  But she absolutely has some big ouchies in there....just have to keep her talking has been my approach. Unforgivable repercussions.
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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Unforgivable repercussions.

Yes, this is what is hard even now. H wants to just "move on". His attitude is "Its all in the past and we are good now." Um, no, we aren't "good". We are still healing.  :(
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Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

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Heartbreaking. Even for my grown kids it has been so devastating. To see a father who was so good and now just pretty much gone. I think no matter what age you are never to young or old to miss a parent that wakes up one day and is no longer the same. It’s a death. Like the death of the marriage, family and parent. It’s the worst part of it all. The effects on the family
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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I think the impact upon the children is the worst and it's so hard as the LBS to support them when you can hardly support yourself and the outside world doesn't get it.

What makes me sad is that my 3 have been affected in different ways.  My oldest D has a lovely partner now - a real yin to her yang. They get on so well and started as friends. They're moving into a new house soon which D is buying. It is her choice to buy on her own and her partner can move in. She said the reason that he wasn't going to be on the deeds is because she didn't want to be in the situation where they might split up and she would have to lose the house.  I understand her logic and her partner is ok with that and equally understands where she is coming from. However it's sad that she now thinks that she has to think that way. The magical concept of being with someone for a long time is no longer in her thinking because of what H did. H's actions showed the fragility of relationships. 
S believes now that he won't find anyone who will be able to love him enough and to find someone he would be able to trust.  Second D split up from her child's father a few years ago and now is cautiously casually dating someone but she has no intention of committing because it's "safer " that way.
My children are all adults and all 3 of them now have a reluctance to believe that marriages can last - after all their parents who they believed adored each other couldn't manage it so why should they even think it is possible?  So sad.

H has actually stuck to my request and I have hardly heard much of EA's name and he has also been far more solicitous and helpful. He regularly seeks approval (which I hate because I hate that he might think he has to seek approval - that is so sad) but I keep honest, supportive of his post stroke recovery and I know that the actual parting when we do separate will be very hard on both of us. 

I can only keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep looking forward to a brighter future.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

S
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I had a long conversation with H yesterday and it seems that an awakening has taken or is taking place.

Reality of our separation is beginning to hit home for him.  That said the basic outline of the conversation was he is full of regret.

He said that he had been a selfish husband who had promised me the earth when we moved here. He failed in his promises choosing instead to spend his money, not on the house as promised but on himself, his purchases of his "toys" (aka boats and planes and OW) leaving me to continue to pay all of the bills and mortgage.  He recognised that he travelled whilst I stayed home, he had fun doing his own thing but at a huge cost and leaving me to bring up the children and that he only played at being a dad. 
He apologised profusely for each thing he did.

He said that he realised now exactly what he had thrown away and that he made some very poor decisions that he cannot make up for.
He also said that he now had to live on his own, learn to cook for himself again, learn to do all the things he would have to do again and to make sure that I never wanted for anything even though we were separated.

I just listened and at the end said " Thank you. I appreciate all that you have said. It's such a pity that we have had to get to this point for you to really understand the sadness of it all. I knew the sadness way back in 2013 and yet I also knew you had to go through this. What I had hoped for was that you would arrive here much sooner and that we had a chance at restoring and rebuilding our marriage. I do thank you though for saying that to me though"

He just nodded and started to cry.

And so I have the words that I needed to hear and I feel sad but I know that we need to separate now because words now need to be followed up with actions. If he truly wants the marriage he will have to do the work and this time do it on his own.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Wow!  I’m sure that was a long time coming to hear those words.  I also think, at least for me, it would take a lot of courage to state that boundary so clearly. 
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He just nodded and started to cry.

Thank you Song for sharing. The above struck me, because they are such a mess for such a long time..and they know it.

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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Thank you for sharing your story all these years Song.  It sounds like a new story is beginning. 

With a live in MLCer it's very hard to find the space to heal, for both the MLCer and the LBS.  I find that in my situation all the time.   I wonder sometimes if we may end up in the same spot.  Our entire marriage has changed and it is very difficult to reassemble with 2 different people living under the same roof.  I completely understand your reasons for separating.     

Quote
And so I have the words that I needed to hear and I feel sad but I know that we need to separate now because words now need to be followed up with actions. If he truly wants the marriage he will have to do the work and this time do it on his own.

Yes and yes.  Words are good to hear but unless followed by actions they really mean nothing. 

I wish you nothing but peace as you go forward on your own.

Roo
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Husband 58
Me 58
Kids 3 sons 33, 30, 28 1 daughter 24
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 36years.  Together 38
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-PA

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Thank you, Song, for sharing such a powerful experience.
As someone who subscribes to Tara Brach’s notion of “radical compassion” and who holds on the the faith that EVERYONE can be redeemed, I have one question. When you write, “ If he truly wants the marriage he will have to do the work and this time do it on his own,” do you have a somewhat clear idea of what actions or behavior you would like to see? Or is it one of those things where you say “I’lll know it when I see it” ?
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Thank you, Song, for sharing such a powerful experience.
As someone who subscribes to Tara Brach’s notion of “radical compassion” and who holds on the the faith that EVERYONE can be redeemed, I have one question. When you write, “ If he truly wants the marriage he will have to do the work and this time do it on his own,” do you have a somewhat clear idea of what actions or behavior you would like to see? Or is it one of those things where you say “I’lll know it when I see it” ?

Good question and I think the latter will be the answer. 

What I would like to see is consistency of behaviour which would include him showing me that I do matter. That he can be loyal - that he doesn't need to share his inner thoughts and feelings to another woman (which he does with the EA aka business associate). I need to feel that I can trust him more fully. I hope to see him being more at peace with himself, his situation and his understanding of others.    Consistency will be important.  And that applies to me too. I need to be consistent in my approach to him too.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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S&D-I hope he proves himself. Sounds like a good start. Thank you for sharing. Will be following!
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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Update

I write this post sitting at my table in my new house.  I moved here nearly 2 weeks ago now.  The move was as traumatic as I had feared but not because of me and H but because I thought I had got things ready for the removal people and they were such a fast army my head was spinning and I found myself becoming so overwhelmed that my S told the removal people to just deal with him as I needed to be away for a short while.

Leaving our lovely marital home of 19 years was not as hard as I thought it would be but I do miss the space. I don't miss the unfinished jobs, the cold walls and the feeling of never getting anything done.  I do miss the fabulous garden.

So I have just about settled in at a basic level; this is not my forever home but it is a good enough stop gap for me to take stock, re- sort my life and find out what and who S&D is all over again.

H has moved into his house too and of course his EA business associate was there to help him. I am going to call her EA from now on.  I popped over to see him last week with the dog because he said he missed seeing her and whilst I was there he continued to behave inappropriately again....he face timed EA's daughter (she's 15!) and EA. I was upstairs trying to find some car documents that H needed for taxman and when I came back down I heard EA say "Oh I could have told you where that was" .  Needless to say I flipped.  H couldn't understand it.  He thought I was being silly and when I told him that I was clearly superfluous to him he told me that I was wrong.  My reply "It's my truth H and I cannot be wrong about that" 

I packed my bag, took the dog and left and since then he has had to text or call me and I have only chosen to reply if necessary.

He just doesn't see it. He's not experiencing life on his own - she's there at the end of the phone or helping him with the business.  He has gone from one rescuer to another. 

Our middle D went to see him at the weekend and she said that she found 2 mugs one with his initial on and one with EA's on. EA's comfy shoes were also on the shoe rack in the hallway.  (H hated shoe racks and never saw the point of them and yet here we are.....a shoe rack with EA's shoes on)   Our GD has the same initial as EA and when my D asked him about the mugs H tried (badly) to pass it off as a mug that GD could use when she was there.  GD is 6 - this is an adult size large coffee mug..... ::) ::) ::)

So I am truly on my own in my own house and I am happy.  I am ok.  I will continue to search for my forever home but I am no longer searching for my forever future with H. Is the door closed - no not yet. 35 years together is hard to slam shut. Could it close - who knows?  It's just not that important to me anymore.



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« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 11:29:47 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

b
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Ugh..its like some men are just endlessly spinning from pillar to post with no stability or direction.  And is there just an endless supply of these OW's that have no respect for marriage , boundaries or families.  How do these men keep finding these types of women ?.  I am sorry that once again he "doesn't get it ". He may never , you are right. I have one of those as well, there are many things that I feel he just doesn't "get".  Nothing we can do about that , nothing at all. I am glad you are finally moved and feel happy , it is just a huge transition to be on your own after 35 years.  I imagine it will be a mixture of good and bad for a period of time and hopefully a more stable and healthy life.   I fully and totally understand how hard closing the door ( the final time) on a 35 year marriage is .  Extremely difficult in all ways .  And the new EA ? .  She has her work cut out for her in ways she is blind to . Idiot.
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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I hope that your new home, albeit not the forever one, gives you some peace and a space to rejiggle your boundaries with H, S and crappy EA woman, Song. (And i’m sorry that EA woman turned out to be just as your instinct told you......as LBS I think we get to a point where we trust our gut on what quacks like a duck more but that doesn’t mean it’s a nice thing to be confirmed regardless) You deserve some peace and quiet without other folks’ drama for a while. And a chance to focus on just you and your next chapter and things that bring you joy, big or small. Wishing you all the best from my bit of the planet.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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What more is there to say?

You called it and were, unfortunately, correct... As long as there is some EAOW available to rescue him, why bother to do the hard work of sorting himself out? Easier to just push it off on someone else... The thing is that nothing is going to change for him in real terms... Wash, rinse, spin, repeat ad nauseum....

I hope that your new digs bring you comfort and peace from H's shenanigans...
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
1 Dog
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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I have been thinking about your post today.
There are not many people who write here who have contact with their spouses many years after BD.
I have a thought. Although they have some feelings for us and they seem not able to cut all ties, they do not feel romantic love for us anymore. Their EA’s are important to them…..we are part of their past.
Because they interact with us, we mistake that for interest. Some will actually say things that seem like they wish to still have us in their lives but their actions do not.
I find it confusing. There is still something there, but for them, they have travelled a different direction. One in which they want to be free to explore relationships with others and not have to engage in any real relationship with us. No longer accountable to our relationship.
This is what they want. Over and over they show us that their wants/ their needs/ their lives are in one direction only and we are only on the periphery.
I am not saying this is the case with your situation, I see this in my own situation but I do see some of this in others who post here whose relationships never seem to progress forward or really end totally.
Not sure if a I am expressing myself, just some musings after reading your story today.

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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Totally interesting and valid musings.

I guess because of the amount of contact I do have with H - he remains a clinger but a clinger who wants to not cling but doesn't know how to do that and so resorts to being rescued and given a way out.

At BD I told H that he had always run away from difficulties in his life and that he suppressed and when life became too difficult - he ran rather than putting his big boy pants on and facing it (whatever it was or is).  This has happened repeatedly throughout the 8 years since BD and was made blatantly obvious on moving day. 

We had a van assigned to each of us because of course we were separating.  H started the day by joking around with the removal people - getting in their way - contradicting the items that were going into the various vans and generally not helping.  He stood and watched as my sister (who is my angel) washed, cleaned, wiped and vaccummed as much as possible once each room was empty.  He then decided half way through the moving out process to drive off because he wanted to warn the new next door neighbours (his new place is 45 mins away) and without even telling me this - he just left. 
I tackled him on this when I saw him last week. I said - "You couldn't even say goodbye to the house with me. You couldn't even say goodbye to me."

His response " Oh I was busy...."    Um busy - doing what precisely H? 

He ran away from even that responsibility.  He is likely to remain a runner and I have to reconcile my thinking that even if this EA disappears up the chimney - if after all that has happened with H - nothing will make him stop, reflect and face himself then  nothing for him will ever change.   I will but he won't.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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No responsibility. Like a teenager who is only focused on me, me, me.

When our house was for sale, he lived in another country so he did absolutely nothing to prepare the house, be here for the showings, make sure the house was clean..that was all on me.

I ended up keeping our home and he left absolutely everything here. I had to dispose of all of it, not knowing what I should "keep". I eventually boxed up some stuff, his coin collection, things of his parent's, expensive golf clubs, other things that would seem important to me and they are stashed under the stairs in the basement. A few months ago he asked me if I had ever heard of "Got Junk" which is a company that comes and hauls stuff away as he thought they could come and remove it all. I expressed that what I had boxed was not "junk", told him what was there and said it's ok. It can stay there as there is lots of empty space.

Nothing from his past, not from our past and not even from his childhood. He has his own place now where it could be stored. At a minimum, he should sort through it and dispose of what's left as he sees fit.

There is nothing in his new place from his past. One picture of our daughter and her wedding photo album.

He has not asked what I did with all his things and never offered to take it from my house.

RCR told me a long time ago that he left everything with me because he trusted me. I think it is because he doesn't have any connection to any of it. He has fabricated a very different life. Which makes sense because indeed he is not the same person and neither am I. But, I have not wiped my past from my life, rather I have very fond and beautiful memories of all of it....

Let us know how you feel without him under foot. I will be curious to hear how you are feeling.

Moving is stressful, the world is stressful and it is hard to have to make every decision "alone".

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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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The inability to face the hard things and deal with the direct repercussions of their actions is mind boggling. And so immature. I can't imagine living like that. Never having closure. Such typical MLC behavior...and if your MLCer was like that prior to MLC then wowzers! I can't even imagine that personality trait magnified.

My xh is acting like that right now. I sold our 'dream' home that we built and put so much time and energy into. He didn't come back once. Not to take anything. Not to take one last look around the property (property that had been in the family for 20 years). Nothing. Acted like it was no big deal I was selling. I think it's the guilt and shame. When hard feelings start to bubble up- they run for the hills. "Not wanting to do anything that makes them feel bad. The really sad part is that 'not dealing' with things is what got them to this point. So they are really just hurting themselves and stunting their growth. No one can run forever. And without closure...wounds will eventually fester and infection will spread. It's the same with painful experiences and the shame/guilt/anxiety/depression that will grow if not properly dealt with.  Hopefully someday they realize that.

Just know it did affect him. He felt something and it was a hard sad feeling so he ran. He couldn't do it and wanted to get away. To us it looks like they don't give a flying fig, but they do. My daughters told me the last time my Xh was in town that he drove by the house and properties a few times with them and that he was quiet and sad. So I know it affects them.
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YOU keep interrupting his crisis. YOU keep him distracted with all your questions, statements and observations. YOU keep him from facing himself, from feeling the pain of missing his family (until he is ready to do something about it...or not ). YOU are keeping him from fully feeling and facing the man he is.  Leave him 100% to his own devices and crisis ...100% shut it all down.  Bow out...its not about you! I sometimes feel they have stranded themselves on some deserted island. They have done that to themselves as a result of their own actions, choices, behaviors. They need to figure out how to get off the island...the messy painful island they put themselves on. Stop taking him fresh water, food, homemade baking, clean clothes etc....why would he try to make himself better?

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I think it's the guilt and shame. When hard feelings start to bubble up- they run for the hills. "Not wanting to do anything that makes them feel bad. The really sad part is that 'not dealing' with things is what got them to this point. So they are really just hurting themselves and stunting their growth. No one can run forever. And without closure...wounds will eventually fester and infection will spread. It's the same with painful experiences and the shame/guilt/anxiety/depression that will grow if not properly dealt with.  Hopefully someday they realize that.

I am not sure KellBell that this is just a way for us to explain their behavior which may or may not be true.

I guess the past 13  1/2 years and watching some other long time MLCers that do not show any sign of shame/guilt or a desire to face up to things, my experience is that some are able to compartmentalize and move along. We truly do not know what they are feeling or experiencing.

In a sense, my "best" coping mechanism now seems to accept that he's gone. His body is still there and we have contact but he closed the door firmly and completely on "us". It is as though he has a completely new identity. All the things that I once thought would shatter that, have had absolutely no effect on him.

Again, I don't have a clue of how he feels on the inside but from the outside he has a wonderful life and what hurts me still, is that I should have been enjoying that wonderful life with him.

As much as I try, I am still limping while he is soaring like a bird that has been freed from it's cage after never wanting to be in captivity.

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« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 06:53:20 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

K
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xyzcf...

perhaps it's just a way for me rationalize the irrational. But according to my therapist, there is a disconnect. And an avoidance of dealing with hard complicated feelings. For some- it's to completely run away. Leave it all and start over. Never to face the repercussions. And that's horrible. And for some...they find a sort of peace with this new life and new version of themselves. It doesn't mean it's not wrong or hurtful. LBS are definitely deserving of an apology and/or indepth conversation. For many of us that will never come and that sucks. It's crappy that most of us will never have complete closure. And it's horrible that someone we loved and trusted 100% could have such total disregard for us and our feelings. There is no making sense of this craziness. And not every MLCer is the same. Some are irreversibly broken.

but more to the point. I wish and hope that you can get past looking at his life as being so spectacular. It's not. You will never get to see what he's feeling or his thoughts or his regrets. For some- they lock it away and compartmentalize...possibly forever. We can never truly know what someone else is going through or how their life really is. But someone who just leaves, deceives and traumatizes another person can never be truly happy. And if they are...they are not a person worth having in your life. You are worth more. I get that is easier said than done. But you should get to do all the things you want to do. Live and fly free yourself!!  ;)

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YOU keep interrupting his crisis. YOU keep him distracted with all your questions, statements and observations. YOU keep him from facing himself, from feeling the pain of missing his family (until he is ready to do something about it...or not ). YOU are keeping him from fully feeling and facing the man he is.  Leave him 100% to his own devices and crisis ...100% shut it all down.  Bow out...its not about you! I sometimes feel they have stranded themselves on some deserted island. They have done that to themselves as a result of their own actions, choices, behaviors. They need to figure out how to get off the island...the messy painful island they put themselves on. Stop taking him fresh water, food, homemade baking, clean clothes etc....why would he try to make himself better?

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Thank you for your insight and kind words. I was thinking it might be even harder for LBSers with vanishers because they never even see or know anything at all about their lives.

We often speak here that the MLCer is "not happy" and that may or may not be true. Sometimes I think since they do not "feel" the highs of life or the lows, they are missing out on the richness of all that life has to offer.

I agree with your therapist that there is a severe "disconnect".

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And for some...they find a sort of peace with this new life and new version of themselves.

I also don't understand how you could hurt someone so terribly and not feel something.

His life is "spectacular" because he does not seem to "feel" . He is highly successful and very much respected and has many many friends around the world who think he's wonderful. Even some of our oldest friends who know what he's done have told me that they still think he's a really great guy (ouch) and consider him a good friend.
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But you should get to do all the things you want to do. Live and fly free yourself!!  ;)

Definitely doing  this. Covid caused me to withdraw from the world and all the things I love so I am making up for that time as much as possible.

Sorry Song for the hijack.

Thanks KellBell. I think we are somewhat saying the same thing in that some may not have the capacity to actually feel anything and so they are quite content to live the lives they have established for themselves.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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The trauma from the move may be mild, or it might be buried and come bursting out at some point. I am so sorry that after all this time you are yet in a between land, not quite to where you want to be, but not still stuck where you know you had to leave.  Change is often difficult simply because it is not familiar. I hope you will find your forever home when the time is right.

I am going to attempt to ask this correctly, and please forgive me if it comes out wrong. I am curious, Song, as to why you were looking for the car papers for your H? Does he not have any friends at all who can help him? What is the reason you felt this was STILL your job, or maybe why is it you still want to/think you needed to take care of him? I get that you happened to be there, but it does not make it your responsibility. Why did you bring the dog because he misses the dog?  From where I sit, it looks like you were catering to his whims and wants and somehow that just doesn't make sense, so I'd like to know your point of view, to know what I am missing sitting out here in cyberland where I know nothing of the ins and outs of your situation. Has your outlook changed on that, or do you still feel some obligation/desire to help/something to him? Are you still looking to see if he will come out of MLC, maybe? You don't have to answer, of course, I would just like to understand if I can.
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Offroad, I think you have valid questions there. I also did things like what Songdance did. My H usually contacts me when he gets sick or when something went wrong. And then I come right away to the rescue partly because I feel it is still my responsibility to take care of him and because I guess in my mind he is still my husband. Also I was hoping that he would come out of MLC and see my value and my sacrifices. And of course I guess I was still hoping I could make things better and fix it. But of course I am also aware that I can’t fix it. I just cannot part from that old self who was always a fixer. That’s what I did since I was a child. I became a parent to my siblings  and my mother relied on me. But anyway, none of the things I did changed my MLCer. So I forced myself to learn to accept it. I‘m still not 100 there but I don’t worry that much anymore what my H is doing now or who is he seeing.
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Me 43 at BD
H    45 at BD
Married 11 yrs at BD, no kids,
BD May 2019 (I moved out Nov 2019)
EA or PA with ex gf (not sure), H spent 3 nights with the hoe during our vacation in July 2019, it was a friendly encounter according to H
H wanted D April 2020 seeing suspected OW2 (divorced with two kids) and 2 years older than him, H didn’t file the D
Clinging boomerang
6/21 H moved in with me; kicked him out 01/22
H turned into a vanisher, wants a Divorce, OW 3 (16 years younger and extreme sporty)
14.11.22 Divorce final, I'm done

S
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I am curious, Song, as to why you were looking for the car papers for your H? Does he not have any friends at all who can help him? What is the reason you felt this was STILL your job, or maybe why is it you still want to/think you needed to take care of him? I get that you happened to be there, but it does not make it your responsibility. Why did you bring the dog because he misses the dog?  From where I sit, it looks like you were catering to his whims and wants and somehow that just doesn't make sense, so I'd like to know your point of view, to know what I am missing sitting out here in cyberland where I know nothing of the ins and outs of your situation.

Good question OR.  However it was partially my responsibility as explained below.
The car paperwork was usually in my filing cabinet and it was our shared second car (which we both used to take and carry performance stuff or tow trailers etc).  H had all business stuff in his. The removal company managed to ignore the colour schemes which they had asked us to use to identify whose stuff was whose and both filing cabinets went to H's house. 
H told me that he had received a text from the  Gov.uk about not having the car marked as off the road for repairs and needing to declare it before he was fined (SORN in UK). I then realised that he had all of the cars paperwork including mine, S's and D's. So it made sense to go over and pick all of ours up and find the document at the same time. 

Was I helping, rescuing?  That's up to other people to decide. I saw it as being helpful and ensuring that the separation was on its way to being complete.  I don't accept the comment that I was catering to his whims. I chose to go to see him - he didn't ask me to. I also chose to take the dog. What happened whilst I was there simply re-inforced the reason for the separation and helped me heal a little more.

Re the dog - she was incredibly good for H when he had his stroke and, as part of his rehabilitation, he would take her out for lots of walks and runs whilst I was out working so he had developed a real bond and connection with her.  When we moved to this house, it also became clear that my dog was not coping with the change of house and the reduction in her human family. So she was taken to see him so that she knew he was ok.  Even S (who cannot stand H) said that it was the right thing to do for her

I'm not a vindictive person, I can't be vindictive with H. I can be detached, cool, distant but I will always be kind.  Whether I now fix or rescue is a much more obvious pattern of behaviour that I am working on.

Am I expecting H to come out of it anytime - nope!  Am I deluding myself - I don't think so but then again this is the first time I have been on my own for 35 years - that's a long time to build up a narrative and now it's time to build a new one.
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« Last Edit: March 11, 2022, 03:06:07 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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If H had the papers to your car, S's car and D's car as well as his, I might even be tempted to call it an act of "self-preservation" because, in his state of mind, there is no telling where those papers might have ended up....

I just love it when moving companies ask for things, we do them and then the company ignores them... And we get to PAY for that privilege...  ::)
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
1 Dog
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Thank you so much for explaining that to me. As I said, I have no idea of the ins and outs of the situation, and my outside view did not seem quite right. You were trying to sort the paperwork and as a by product, no harm no foul to locate the paperwork he needed while you were in the location. As to the dog, it was the way you wrote " I popped over to see him last week with the dog because he said he missed seeing her" as opposed to  "I popped over to see him last week with the dog because the dog misses him" that made it sound (to me in cyberland) as if you might be catering to HIS whims and wants. Cater to the DOG's whims and wants all you want and it totally makes sense to me.  ;) Not that making sense to ME should be any criteria anyone else lives by.

I really appreciate your taking the time to explain it for me.
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Hello Songanddance. It’s been a while. I’ve just finished reading your current thread. You might recall our timelines are about a year apart.
I can totally understand where you are coming from. Reconnected but not reconciled. I am what you would call reconnected but far from reconciled. My choice not being reconciled btw.
It has been a relief for me to be reconnected. Just like you I love my x and always will. So to be able to have conversations with him and to do things with our kids and grands without me breaking down or him being an ass to me is a good place to be. It’s a hell of a lot better than where we were.
I know many people don’t understand it. It’s a grey area I guess. I remember when it all felt black or white to me. Not so much anymore.
I’m sorry you had to move. But I’m excited for you too!  A start over in a new place was a good thing for me. Now I own my own home. It’s very much a reflection of me. And nothing from my married past is in it. It’s peaceful and it makes me smile. I hope that you will find that same happiness in your home.
You know my x left his ow - the first one. He and I didn’t talk or communicate for quite some time back then so I didn’t know too much about it. Then after quite a long time he shows up playing the I wanna get back together game. Lol. I fell for it but didn’t know he was in a relationship with someone else. lol.it’s a long story how that one played out
Who knows what goes through their minds.
He’s been what I call “clean” for a couple years now. He lives in his place and I live in mine. As long as he doesn’t treat my like crap and he’s truthful I’m fine with the connection.
If he chooses to date as long as he gives me a heads up it won’t bother me at all. It’s the lying and being treated badly that has hurt me the most through all this.
If he did that again I’d just delete him from my little part of the world. But as long as he’s being a decent human I am enjoying just being friends. Chatting here and there and sharing some meals together when he is back home from his work.
Just keep being you songanddance. Do what works for you. I’ve found that’s the only way to roll. If any of it becomes uncomfortable for you just know you don’t have to deal with it. I used to just shrug my shoulders at x. Ya know after I got my $h!te together. Lol. He’d say why do you shrug your shoulders at me?  I’d say because I’m sending your crap that you put on my shoulders back over to you. It’s off my shoulders now. It’s your problem. Not mine. 😁

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BD Feb 2014
DONE

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It’s the lying and being treated badly that has hurt me the most through all this.

Agree here TMT.  It's the fact that H cannot reconcile his comments about being a "s**t husband and treating me badly" to how he behaves now.   It's almost as if he thinks like a child - " I've apologised now and can carry on doing what I want to do anyway" syndrome.  We forgive children for being naughty (most of the time) because we want to teach and show them compassion, understanding and help them realise  that such behaviour even if you apologise cannot continue.

He doesn't get it.  He doesn't lie about what happens but he fails to see that by being so close to EA - it is still hurtful.

Yesterday I popped over to H's house to pick up GD as second D had stayed overnight and  was spending the weekend painting his lounge (he's paying her) and GD was with her. As it was Sunday it was my day for having GD so that was the arrangement.
 
 H was in the garage putting some sound and lighting equipment away after a group had borrowed it last week, and guess who was there? EA and her husband who were part of the group that had borrowed it.  EA waved at me - I acknowleged with a wave and then went into the house to pack up GD's stuff ready to go.  H didn't acknowledge me until he walked in the house a few minutes later. I am polite but short with him.  EA strolls into the kitchen (her H having left) and makes herself and H a cup of tea using their "initial"  mugs.   No offers to anyone else.
D looked at me and said " In fairness mum she has only just arrived to return the stuff - however I've noticed there is now a third mug with the initial of EA's daughter in the cupboard" 
I sighed - said my goodbyes and left with GD.

I have really good long standing male friends but there is no way on earth I would let them have free rein of my house or have a mug with their initials on  or leave their comfy shoes in the hallway....etc....

Later H phoned me to have a chat because he was feeling low.  I kept it calm and functional to the point of almost business like - no rescuing or fixing.

H really doesn't see what is happening. He is so busy wanting to be rescued but because it's too hard to fix himself,  anyone will do.  I'm not anyone anymore. I refuse.

At the back of my mind are the words EA said to H (in my presence)not long after his stroke last year and just after he came out of hospital. She said to him " By not looking after yourself did you not think what would happen to me if the business failed. I have to pay bills too you know and I want this resolved" 

I was staggered at this - I understood the practical premise she felt it but was appalled at the selfishness displayed, the timing  and the fact H fell for it. His guilt was so immense he fell for it and it reduced him to tears. 
It really is like OW all over again but this time - I'm not that much around to be witness to it. Phew!

Reconnected but not reconciled - it's hard.   It's hard to dismiss what you once knew and to analyse what you still feel for that person in whom you invested so much of your life. In fact it is exactly 36 years to the day today when H and I told each other that we loved each other for the first time. We'd only known each other a few weeks but it was an overwhelming moment.

And here we are now.  Reconnected but not reconciled and living separate lives; it's sad.
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« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 02:58:38 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Reconnected but not reconciled - it's hard.   It's hard to dismiss what you once knew and to analyse what you still feel for that person in whom you invested so much of your life. In fact it is exactly 36 years to the day today when H and I told each other that we loved each other for the first time. We'd only known each other a few weeks but it was an overwhelming moment.

And here we are now.  Reconnected but not reconciled and living separate lives; it's sad.

I know. I still love my husband. He is on my mind every day. I know little about his life and his "friends" but what I do know hurts me, even though I too have friends and a really good life......

This connection is not something that we can"wish" away.

I read so often here that we have to "let them go"...I don't see it quite that way. They let us go. It wasn't our choice at all.

I, and I know others as well, cannot "let go" in our hearts. And it seems impossible to me that I should continue to have these feelings for him because they are in no way reciprocated.

I think it is quite normal for you to have these feelings seeing this person, her shoes in the hallway, her coffee cup in his kitchen...reading what you write, I feel " rage" inside of me..because that is how I would feel to see that.

I accept my feelings and try to live filling life with my own "plans" and experiences. There are occasional days when I feel deeply sad, missing him but that is not the way my life turned out.

I hear you Song. Each one of us have a story to tell and each is different. It is both a blessing and a curse to have loved these men the way we have.

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It's almost as if he thinks like a child - " I've apologised now and can carry on doing what I want to do anyway" syndrome.

sigh....."he thinks like a child"..pretty well sums it up.

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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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It is sad, Song. I think we feel the sadness bc we see what is lost by it and how valuable that is to us and most healthy-thinking humans. And yet it seems they don’t. Or not in a way or in time to change the course we all find ourselves on. Still it’s a sad thing, such a lot of destruction of good stuff.

And gosh, EA OW is a rather nasty self-centred bill of goods, isn’t she? Never doubt that your instinct on that, and her, and how inappropriate and frankly weird her behaviour is. Your h may not see it but the red flags wave around loudly with that one  ::) Sadly I guess your h will have to learn that the hard way.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Thank you all

Today I met my hairdresser - I knew she and her H weren't the happy couple but guess what he has become - yep a fully blown MLCer with what he says is an emotional affair. She has her doubts- so do I.

I hadn't seen her for a couple of months and we happened to park next to each other by sheer fluke outside a supermarket.  She blurted out that her H had left her 4 weeks ago for someone else.  I instantly hugged her - she needed it.

It is typical MLC behaviour - hiding his phone - lying about how often he has contact. Telling his own mother something completely different, telling their friends that he's in love with this new woman and of course rewriting their 32 years together.  She is devastated as are their children.

I won't bore you with the details but she said that she didn't know what to do - she compared herself to the OW and she had screamed, shouted and flipped out and now was terrified of upsetting him. 

I have reassured her that she is ok that it is nothing to do with him and that it is all on him - I have asked her to use me as a sounding board- to vent etc... I only hope she does.

My heart breaks for all newbies...... I just wish it could stop.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Sorry to hear about the newbie as well.

Yes, OW EA is definitely marking her place at your H's (coffee cups, shoes, etc). She wants his business and house. Good thing that you have your own place since he is so susceptible to her.

She is ruthless.
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 12:28:04 AM by Reinventing »

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Yes, OW EA is definitely marking her place at your H's (coffee cups, shoes, etc). She wants his business and house. Good thing that you have your own place since he is so susceptible to her.

She is ruthless.

My thought exactly. She doesn't give a rat's patoot about H, she just wants the gold mine... and he is apparently MORE than willing to hand over the keys to the castle...

Reminds me a bit of the OW my father had... Everything wonderful until he had a massive stroke and was invalid for a couple of years,... then she was NOWHERE to be seen.... but his xW(3) was there by his side the entire time.... the one he D'd for OW<x>....
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
1 Dog
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

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A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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The mugs….come on!!!! Tooooo much. So, the husband is there and leaves her there ? I can’t imagine any husband would be to happy about those mugs and bringing her D into the mug story? Im baffled.

Now the hairdresser. They kind become a untrained therapist for us, so how crazy that then she would have the same thing happen to her. I bet you were one of the first people she wanted to tell and get your opinion and advise from.

It’s a club no one wants to be in , but the club just keeps getting bigger and bigger
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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Now the hairdresser....... I bet you were one of the first people she wanted to tell and get your opinion and advise from.

I actually know her more through doing shows - she only became my hairdresser last year.  That said I wasn't one of the first. Her co partner in the hair salon was the first as she was divorced but instead of respecting my friend's privacy - she told many other people who contacted my friend's H instead of my friend and also told my friend to "kick him to the curb". She said she has already met such judgement from others - she couldn't understand it.

My friend said she was devastated about the lack of trust she could now have in her business partner.  She said that she had been told by many to "take her H for every single penny" (he is very wealthy - very)

She said that she was surprised when I said "I'm not going to offer you comments like that - they're a little unhelpful at this stage. I'm here for you. I'm more interested in helping you deal with the emotional fallout of all this"
I went through the checklist of things MLCers say and do and her H ticked  every box.  She was so shocked and reassured about this.

I did ask though that she get financial advice to which she said that she had already seen a solicitor who had advised freezing all her H's assets but she said that that would mean telling her H and at the moment he was still working from home and was being very nasty to her.  I told her that she would need to make sure all her income was hers and that she had done the right thing seeking guidance.

I just send her texts asking if she's ok and reminding her that I'm here and I will never judge her.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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I imagine that must feel like a tremendous blessing to her, Song, air when she feels like she is drowning. I’m sure all of us would have happily spent our lives without having to know what those shoes feel like, but oh my goodness, it can be a validating lifesaver to be able to offer to others. I suspect though that one might need to have the lens of a few years out from BD and I hope that you are not finding it too triggering for you.

How are things going in your new place? And with your son?
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Update - Looks like it's been a bit of a moving time for not just me but a few other forum members too..... was that in the stars or moon UM?

Been here a month now and still sorting things out. One of which was paying off any debts and really deciding what to do with the rooms. 
I had chucked out so much stuff before the move and thought that was it but now I look at the unpacked boxes in the loft and think - really?  Do I actually need this stuff?

Moving house made me realise how much stuff we hold onto. Much of it is sentimental, some of it is practical but all of it is stuff we bought/acquired/inherited etc..... 

My marriage with H was stuff too - full of memories both good and bad (if you count BD) - practical, loving for most of the time, enjoyable etc..   What I am keeping are those good memories, the good feelings, the knowledge that we brought up 3 wonderful children, the knowledge that life is precious (aka H's stroke) and the knowledge that no matter what happened we are fallible, flawed human beings and compassion, dignity and integrity will always overcome the cr*p in our lives.

So I am reducing the amount of physical stuff even further. I don't want my children to have to eventually look at it all  and just think "why oh why did she hang onto this"  What I hang onto now will have a purpose, a reason and more importantly it will become part of their history and their own life stories. 

And so I now feel that my new life is beginning and, as I approach a big birthday in a few months and leave this decade behind, I have to choose to live it and whoever wants to come along for the ride is welcome but they have to choose to want to be with me and I have the right to refuse.

Re H - I popped H a quick text asking how he was because the GP has upped his medication. He phoned back. We talked but it was all superficial - me wittering on about the 3rd plumber I'd had to find and him talking about how his car is still in the workshop awaiting repair after 6 weeks because the manufacturers and insurance company can't agree who pays even though the car is technically under warranty etc...... you know the stuff that acquaintances and friends talk about..... ::) ::)

That's it - life as a single is proving interesting and challenging.  It's a new journey and so far I've been able to navigate most of the milestones without too much of a hiccup. Long may it continue!

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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Time for a brief update:

I am sort of enjoying my new house.  Living here though is such a contrast from where we used to live.  We used to have trees, land, a river and fields all around and now it's  a standard detached property right here in the middle of a suburban road. It's nice to be nearer people and it's nice to be nearer town but this is probably not my forever home.  That's ok though. It is considerably cheaper to live here and I am finding it closer to 2 of my 3 teaching posts. So all good really - it's just that feeling of what more is there?

My neighbours are very sweet but the whole close (avenue) is a little bit Stepford wivesish/Truman show.......On Sundays, the men clean the cars with their pressure washers and the women vacuum the cars.  The bins are always brought out roadside together and yes I've seen 4 neighbours all bring their bins out at the same time - acknowledge each other with a sort of Truman style smile and wave......

My children continue to offer their own sweet challenges so life as a mum of 3 adults is certainly not dull.

My time with H is fairly regular - usually a weekly phone call or I will pop over and have a meal with him. (S hates him so much he doesn't want H here at all)
On the H front for those of you interested in a 9 and half yr old MLCer( ;D ;D) Following on from his stroke (as well living on his own now)  he is actually getting much better physically and much more aware of how he can help his motor skills continue to improve.  He's had the most horrendous time with his car that literally fell apart whilst he was driving  - the manufacturer refuses to acknowledge the metal fatigue report given by a the top metallurgical professor in the uk and the insurance company won't touch or help at all.  So he's bought a little runaround and that has begun to transform him in other good ways. 

As a typical MLCer he prized objects of high value. Now he's discovered that he doesn't need a fancy car to get from A to B. He has found greater freedom driving a small car that he can handle with confidence and he has become increasingly grafteful.

In terms of "Us" well there is no "us" per se but there is a warm friendship that will persist. He is far more tactile than he has been over the last 9 years.  I get a welcome hug and kiss, a hug because he feels like it and a farewell hug and kiss.  It's all very nice; and yet I know it is only what it is - a hug and kiss for his wife of 34 yrs. 
He has become more chatty and more engaged with what is happening. He listens far more than he ever used to and the "mr fix it has disappeared"

He and I get on well - still haven't had the kind of  apology I seek and neither do I anticipate the one thing I desire most - for H and S to reconnect and move towards an understanding of each other.  That I fear may never happen and I don't want S to regret his decision as the MLC circle may turn again down the road for S too.  I don't want his partner or children (should he ever have them) to witness the same level of emotional destruction that we have.
Interestingly S has said he doesn't want a partner or children because he's not mentally healthy or emotionally stable.  S is in fact spiralling down again and every morning I wake up wondering......It's a horrid state to be in.

And so the MLC fallout continues......

However that said, I am grateful. I am grateful for all the things MLC has taught me. I am grateful for the fact that I have learned so much about depression and it's dark paths. I am grateful for the fact that I have discovered I can shoulder the challenges and C**p that comes my way.  I am grateful for the fact that I have my health, my ability to write, shop, laugh, drive etc...... 

My thread title is "final stages of the old and early stages of the new"  I think the old is now well and truly done.  The new is an uphill path but I know the view when I get there will be tremendous.

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« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 02:04:05 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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I always love your updates Song. Hank you for continuing to share. I’m sad for you about the worries with your son. But so happy that you are in such a great place yourself.
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M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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Nice update Song.

I also get the hello and goodbye kiss...just that, no hugs though.

Interesting observations about your "community". One thing I find with many of my married friends is that if we are planning to do something, they always say, well let me check with my husband first .... I had a day planned with a friend last week and the plans changed. There are some major problems in her marriage and she immediately said "let me text him re the change in plans" and I looked at her and said "why do you need to tell him?" and it dawned on her that there was no need to "report" in...the change really involved just a different location.

I do love the property and the area I live in (although a 20 year old house has been expensive lately!) so it's good to hear your observations about this new community. When I consider moving back to Canada, I know I will not have this "beauty" surrounding me and would have neighbors much much closer and I am not ready for that yet.

Your son is a big worry for you. I don't have any words of advice and hope that he somehow finds the right "treatment" or "therapy" to help him to heal...you could use one less worry.

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I am grateful for the fact that I have discovered I can shoulder the challenges and C**p that comes my way.  I am grateful for the fact that I have my health, my ability to write, shop, laugh, drive etc......

Well said!!!!! Gratitude is very important to our health and well being.
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 05:36:01 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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the one thing I desire most - for H and S to reconnect and move towards an understanding of each other.  That I fear may never happen and I don't want S to regret his decision as the MLC circle may turn again down the road for S too.  I don't want his partner or children (should he ever have them) to witness the same level of emotional destruction that we have.
Interestingly S has said he doesn't want a partner or children because he's not mentally healthy or emotionally stable.  S is in fact spiralling down again and every morning I wake up wondering......It's a horrid state to be in.

I totally get this. Even after all of this time and things getting better, S19 still holds his father at arms length. They have a better.....I don't know if relationship is the best word......but at least they interact and we can do things as a family sometimes. S19 has depression and anxiety and still has not been able to muster up the courage and confidence to get a job. He has been suicidal. Some days are better than others. I often wonder how things might have been different if H had not gone down this road.........

((hugs))
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Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

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S19 has depression and anxiety and still has not been able to muster up the courage and confidence to get a job. He has been suicidal. Some days are better than others. I often wonder how things might have been different if H had not gone down this road.........

I so get this SF.  My S has had depression for over 10 yrs now with bouts of wellness.  We also think he may be BPD - he certainly has ADHD which was diagnosed when he was little and this whole MLC malarky has not helped at all......  This is more than the the usual teenage V adult male testosterone dislike that seems to develop in teenage years.  I too wonder if things might just have been different and perhaps not as severe.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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One thing I meant to include in my post was the interesting return of H's earlier memories of us together.  During the peak of his crisis he claimed not to remember certain holidays and if he did - they were "awful" (script) but he couldn't remember any details.

My second D is going away to an island where H and I went pre marriage (I was 5 months pregnant at the time with oldest D) and it was our pre-marital honeymoon - I guess. 

I had forgotten the name of the little village we stayed in and only had bits and bobs to remember (including the challenging motorbiking we did as the locals didn't care who they knocked off the bikes).   So I was completely gobsmacked when H told our D - the name of the village, the taverna opposite, the other places (with names and locations) we visited on the island and explained to D about the road system etc.....    It was so detailed. He finished it off by saying - even though your mum and I weren't married at the time, it was our pseudo honeymoon and it was a really lovely holiday. 

Um - what?  I know that if I had asked him to name these details before MLC he wouldn't have been able to. 

Interesting.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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So happy to read your update. I had to laugh about your neighbors.  I live in a neighborhood that is far from anything Stepford wifsish. Although the neighbors for the most part are nice enough most of them are always on the go.  But i will say when the power goes out it's a different story. The power goes out and it seems like all front doors open and everyone steps out yelling to each other, did your power go out??  Once it is confirmed that that everyone's power is out everyone steps back inside, doors close and it is life as normal.

Glad you are enjoying your new home.  Something new while life goes on.
Take care,
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But i will say when the power goes out it's a different story. The power goes out and it seems like all front doors open and everyone steps out yelling to each other, did your power go out??  Once it is confirmed that that everyone's power is out everyone steps back inside, doors close and it is life as normal.

My next door neighbor called me one snowy night with great anxiety in her voice "xyzcf are you all right?" I was sitting on the couch, fireplace on, dog at my feet watching TV..I responded "yes why?" and she said "well it's snowing outside!"

Having lived most of my life in Canada, I am acclimatized to snow.

Bless her though for caring about me!
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Morning all

Time for a brief update in reconnection land....

It's been 5 months since my last update and to be honest not a huge amount about the situation has changed. H and I still living separately. I'm happy and H is struggling because he's not addressing his post stroke depression.
We see each other weekly and it's always nice and pleasant but it just feels like friends catching up rather than separated husband and wife. 

He phones or texts me a bit more often now and I definitely choose whether to answer or to call back.

His EA with the woman who "helped him rescue his business" is definitely on the wane.  I have to accept that she is a part of his life and that he will always have feelings for her however inappropriate or misplaced they may be. I am fairly convinced that it is more one sided on H's part too.  Several times he's told me that she refused to do this or that to help him and quite often she is increasingly doing the office/admin stuff from her home now and not at his.

H has revealed that he is lonely and hates being alone. The first time I heard it; I bit my lip and validated. The second time I said " That's what you wanted H- you wanted out and you wanted to be on your own"  He hated that. The third time I just said " Tough H - actions have consequences"

He is still not ready to face himself and to fully acknowledge the damage he has done. He will probably deny the hurt and physical altercations with S and even though it's not my job to address it, he never will because S wants nothing to do with him.
And so I think at some point, I do need to let him know how and why S is so angry.  H has never asked and this is typical of him, hide head in bucket and suppress when things get difficult.

It'll be 10 yrs from BD in March.  It's been nearly a year since we separated.
Since then my life has come on in leaps and bounds.   Post pandemic I am getting back into the hobbies and skills that I used to love; I am moving forward with my writing, teaching and consultancy work.
I have the most amazing adult children who present challenges from time to time ( that's life) however all of them and their partners read PMA books, listen to PMA podcasts, practise meditation, journalling and constantly review their self growth and more importantly practise what they learn.

Life in S&D land has begun to blossom in ways I had hoped for but after BD, never imagined could happen.  BD was quite simply (next to the death of my parents)one of the worst blows in my life.  Now I am grateful for it.  Whilst I miss the "companionship" of a partner - someone to talk to and share with, I'm ok not having it. In fact it's probably done me a lot of good because I only have myself to focus on and I am determined that the remainder of my life will be full of joy, blessings in whatever shape or form. 
Whoever chooses to join me on this journey will be my decision and I have decided that 2023 is not just the 10th anniversary of my life blowing apart but the start of my renewed life and I am so so ready to get going and get on with it all.
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« Last Edit: January 16, 2023, 01:33:46 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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How lovely to hear, Song, that so many things in your life are flowering and fruiting. X
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

S
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Thanks Treasur

I worked it out recently that my life seems to have gone in 10 yr cycles from when I was 10 myself.  10 - 20 learning school decade full of usual angst and joys. 20s decade - new life as a teacher, finding H and becoming a mum. 30s decade - loss of parents but balanced out with more children/ 40s decade - moving house, really good promotion, children thriving, life definitely on the up financially and emotionally.  50s decade BD and ending sort of downwards with separation and moving house balanced out with therapy, self growth and finding me.  Now this decade starts with 2023 (all other decades also started with 3) and it's an upward trend - hopefully!  :D :D
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Great update S&D.

I feel much like you as it is nice having a partner in life, but it also is nice doing what you want to do. Life on ones own terms. Sometimes I wonder if I could even integrate anyone into my now single life. Get up when you want, eat what you want, be lazy for the day, watch what you want. It does have it’s perks!! ;)
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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Hi Song,

Glad to hear that you are doing well.

I think I have come to a point that although I don't see what is so "special" about his life compared to the life we had and could have, it is what he wants.

I am grateful that we speak to one another. I am grateful that we can spend time with our daughter. I am grateful that I am calmer and more peaceful...accepting what is.

I have plenty of interests and activities. The volunteer work I do with kids is when I feel more like myself. when I am engaged in something that really matters to me. I am surprised at how much I enjoy my home, the garden, the area I live in...years ago when I decided to stay in Colorado because I thought it would be a healing place, that was the right decision for me.

I worry about expenses, the increased cost of everything scares me....will I have enough to live on? I think I am being irrational but it's a real fear for me.

I fear getting sick. Last fall I wasn't well for about 10 days. I have difficulty "asking" friends for help and so I am still really cautious about activities in this post COVID era. I also had a trip in the middle of the night to ER...taking a Lyft home after being cleared but being alone to process my feelings about what had happened...and being asked who to contact by the ER staff..."I guess my daughter" who of course lives thousands of miles away.

I do have people here that are really good to me...but ...it could be that I have decided not to count on anyone but myself....not the best plan  :D

I miss him. I miss our life together and what could have been. Once I am up and doing things I am ok, but I find going to bed at night and waking up in the morning still brings feelings of loss........I do not like being alone so much..I just don't.

Lots of stuff I have been reading lately talk about the need for human connection so I don't think I am abnormal. I miss being touched.

I make sure that I have some human contact every day. I think about getting a dog again, for I found it less lonely to have a creature to talk to ....but am torn between wanting to be free to come and go as I want....I had some difficulty with dog sitters in the past.

I don't know if I would have had the same types of "fears" and "anxiety" had this not happened to me...maybe....but unlike other LBSers, I am not grateful for this to have happened to us.....but we are adaptable and most of the time I am ok.

One of the advocates I work with recently said to me she just wanted me to be "happy" and exploring that I was able to say to her that I am happier now than I have been for many years. I am grateful for that.

Thanks for the update!
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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I only have myself to focus on and I am determined that the remainder of my life will be full of joy, blessings in whatever shape or form.


Yes, our one precious life. A gift, for sure. What a wonderful way you phrased it, Songanddance. So glad you are doing well and forging a fulfilling life for yourself. Truly out of the ashes.
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« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 02:23:17 PM by Reinventing »

S
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I think I have come to a point that although I don't see what is so "special" about his life compared to the life we had and could have, it is what he wants.

Good to hear xy.  That particular point where those of us who do not reconcile, can really see the wood for the trees is incredibly enlightening for our souls.

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I have difficulty "asking" friends for help and so I am still really cautious about activities in this post COVID era. I also had a trip in the middle of the night to ER...taking a Lyft home after being cleared but being alone to process my feelings about what had happened...and being asked who to contact by the ER staff..."

This must be incredibly challenging and I fully understand your "difficulty" as I used to be like that.  One thing I have learned though is that self sufficiency is great but so is being able to ask for help/support from those that aren't in your family.  I don't have a close circle of friends at all; I don't have a group of female friends to go out to lunch with etc.... Yes I have my children close by but they are my children.   One thing I have learned though is to ask - working on the principle that if you don't ask you don't get.  People can only say no and more often than not -they usually say yes especially if they can deliver an act of kindness (not out of selfish reasons but because more often than not kindness is in everyone)

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I miss our life together and what could have been
This is a lyric for the chorus of the LBS song if ever there were one.  I too miss our life together but it's the life of the good stuff and I realised that I believed that if I overlooked the bad stuff it would go away.  In fact I miss more the dreams I had of our retired lives together. That is definitely something that isn't going to come true any time soon.... ::) ::)


As a further update though - yesterday was the day when I go and see H. I always take the dog to see him and we go for walks before it gets dark.  As usual the dog then cuddled up on the sofa where H was sitting (she does adore him) and he was giving her fuss and love.  Then it was time for me to leave - the dog looked up sleepily as if to say "No I want to stay here, where I'm warm and cosy and snoozy"  H then fussed her and said " I'm sorry **** but you have to go back to mum's house now.  I know you don't want to and I'm really really sorry. It's my fault I broke the family apart."
 :o :o
Knock me down with a feather time.  He apologised to the dog!  Funny though that is - I knew then that he was on the start of learning to apologise and perhaps the dog was the metaphor for me or the family.  Who knows?  I said nothing.

Onwards and upwards......



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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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What was the sequence again? Wasn't it, "First the dog, then the friends, then the kids, then Lord God King Buku and everyone else in the universe and then maybe someday the LBS themselves." ?
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
1 Dog
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Funny how we count our “anniversary” from bd now. I’m coming up on 9 years on Valentines Day. Where we are at are so similar. I’m not divorced either but separated. Neither of us cares about divorce at this point. We get along. He lives in a different home. When he is back from his work in Alaska we spend time together. A dinner out or something. Talk on the phone occasionally and text occasionally. It also feels like a friendship to me. There  is nothing deep or intimate. A hug hello a hug goodbye. An I love you. No different than my best of friends except my best of friends and I have much more deep and meaningful conversations.

The x still has a blind spot to our youngest d. He thinks because she accommodates his existence sometimes that all is well. Lol. It is not. I quit trying to explain to him that he abandoned her. She needs to be his first and only priority. He needs to step up. It’s a waste of breath. So I no longer try. His loss.

I remember my therapist telling me, after several sessions with the x, that he is a lost soul. I thought that when he got through all this he might find himself. He is still a lost soul. I have such sadness for him. But I do not let him play that stuff on me. I’m very quick to shut him down when he steps on my boundaries. He’s still a man child in most ways.

I go on with my life and live it the way I choose. But I many times feel like I’m in limbo of my own making. Do you ever feel that way?  I convince myself this is not a bad place to be. X is nice to the kids and me. No more horrible times. We lived a life together for a long time. It doesn’t feel right to just go on without him at all but sometimes I feel like I’m not going on at all with him. Does that make sense? 

You are a strong woman Songanddance. To handle all this and know your path.  I feel as you do on most of it and I feel strong most of the time. It’s those times I’m sitting and pondering that start my confusion of where it’s all at now.

Yours is not the same man you married and mine is the same man I married. Lol. I guess we can only take it one day at a time. Or one decade at a time.

I hope the new year brings good things to you and happiness and ease.

Tmt
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BD Feb 2014
DONE

S
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I go on with my life and live it the way I choose. But I many times feel like I’m in limbo of my own making. Do you ever feel that way?  I convince myself this is not a bad place to be. X is nice to the kids and me. No more horrible times. We lived a life together for a long time. It doesn’t feel right to just go on without him at all but sometimes I feel like I’m not going on at all with him. Does that make sense?

Yes and perfect sense.

I really appreciate people saying I'm a strong woman - I always have been a bit bullish and determined plus a control freak!!  ;D ;D  However inside I know it's not always the real me; the people pleaser, the enabler, and for many times in the early years after BD the victim.

Strength shows itself in small doses, self -respect, personal growth, being aware of your core authenticity and not apologising for it but to work on the weaknesses and nurture the strengths.

I have always loved life and I had a dream of how things could be.  That dream has had to be replaced by a new reality and yet I have learned that if you stick to just one fixed dream you could be disappointed so my dreams evolve as situations change.  That's what keeps me moving forward. 
Yes like you I do sit and reflect and I certainly don't do an "if only..." anymore. 

I still consider H my husband because whilst we're separated we are still legally married. I see nothing wrong with that even though my S thinks I should just go ahead and divorce him now.....he hates the fact that I'm still "attached " to H.  S has well and truly re-written history as he now states in many of his rants that H never loved him, never wanted him, was always physically abusive towards him and was never a good father to him.

None of that is true but S is so twisted in his own demons that I doubt highly he will ever choose to listen.  H does love S very much but just cannot understand why S feels this way. Because our D's forgave H - he thinks S should.  H was so excited when S was born - he seemed even prouder and keen to look after him more than our Ds.  H was never physically abusive to S - he never struck him except once well after BD when testosterone was flying between them and S lashed out first.

In terms of support and encouragement H was very keen for S to have the best education even offering to pay for private school (something he didn't do with the Ds) but then again, as he did with the D,  he rarely turned up to parents evenings with me.......

H became more of an "absent" father rather than a physically in your face kind of father. That is also on me for not calling H out on it and letting him get away with it because I wanted peace and to please him.   
 And then BD.....



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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

S
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Quite a significant update

I regularly see H once a week, we spend time walking the dog and then the evening meal and watching a film. I'm usually the one to visit as H struggles to drive in the dark since his stroke almost 2 yrs ago.

During our meal recently H mentioned that he wanted to put his house in trust for middle child (D) and that as older child was settled and younger child (S) wanted nothing to do with him - if when the time came she wanted to sell she could and keep the proceeds. His thinking was the other two children would split my house sale when the time came.  I baulked at this and the conversation moved onto S and H's relationship with him.

H said he couldn't understand why S was so vile to him......so out the came the guns but with both barrels muffled. Calmly and coolly I explained that because H had put his hands on him S felt that he had no father.  H became defensive and he clearly remembered doing it and tried to justify how he had "assaulted" him.  I said each time he came out with an excuse " You had no right to out your hands on him - you were not in any physical danger, he hadn't physically attacked you and you had to defend yourself. It was your desire to be respected and treated with courtesy from him even though at the time you had destroyed our family." 
Eventually H looked at me and said " What does he want from me?" 
" Accountability and a genuine apology"
" I have apologised"
" When? what did you say by way of apology"
" Two years ago after my stroke- I said that I was sorry if he felt hurt by it"
"That's not an apology H - no where near. You instigated the physical assault - he was being a really badly behaved teenager and that did not warrant you laying your hands on him.  I also did nothing about the situation when in reality I should have kicked you out because regardless of your affair - you had absolutely no right to assault him and it broke all of my boundaries about parenting too. I was weak and did nothing so it's also on me. I have apologised to S but it will take a long time before he truly accepts my apology and moves forward from feeling abandoned by me."
" So what should I say?"
" I'm not telling you what to say but a genuine apology is something like this. I'm truly sorry for my actions, my behaviour and for physically attacking you. It was wrong of me and I understand that I caused you genuine hurt and emotional pain and I also accept that you may never want to forgive me for that."

H nodded. Then he looked up and said "What happened to me?"
Me - "You lost your mind and all sense of logic and loyalty by going off with OW"
Him " I bitterly regret that - It was the worst mistake I have ever made to do that to you and the family. I cannot apologise enough.  What's so sad is that I really thought that you and I would be together for ever. We were meant to be together for ever. "
Me " Have I divorced you? Have I abandoned you and found someone new?  No.  I thought we would be together for ever and in a way we still are but not as a married couple.  In fact H - that and your stroke has done us both a favour.  I am happy with my situation and you are learning everything you forgot about being a truly independent person. Both of us were broken and both of us need to heal. We get on better now than we ever did.  If we can stay friends - then it's a win win situation."

He deflected and said " Yes but if ever you wanted to see someone else I wouldn't stand in your way."
Me " Thank you for that - but I have no intention of finding anyone else to muck up my life!

And then the dog jumped on the chairs to the table and caused a complete and welcome distraction.

Just putting it out there....... nearly 10 yrs later - I learn what I always believed that deep down H never stopped loving me.

However until S and H begin to sort out their differences - our status quo will remain and that's fine by me.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Well, if THAT wasn't the "HIMARS" of all Truth Telephone Poles, I don't know what is.


It seems as if he heard you though.... Now the question is whether or not he will actually DO anything about it (particularly with S)
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
1 Dog
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

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Strangely enough, I was listening to a podcast about saying sorry in a constructive way yesterday (podcast is The Bunker, and it was talking about it in the context of politics though). The contributors has done guiding principles on the difference between a useful apology and one that is not so much....pretty similar to what you described, Song.

Listening to it, it seemed to me that the genuinely hard thing to do is to say without excuses some version of I did this, I was wrong to do it and I can see that it hurt you in this way. No place to hide....that is quite a brave thing to do for any human....and of course, we risk rejection as well. Bc other folks are under no obligation to accept our sorry. It’s a kind of nakedness really, isn’t it?

Still, your update does sound like a shift for him and you. Probably unimaginable not so long ago. And you sound good and steady, Song, which is lovely. It sounds as if some part of the conversation was, idk, comforting or confirming to you in some way? What a mess these folks make.....sad really. Funny though that he thought he still has the right to give you ‘permission’ or ‘not stand in the way’....to be entitled to a vote at all really....if you ever decided to create a new partnership with a new person......but a lot of us here will be smiling along with your not wanting to invite someone else in to risk mucking up your hard-earned good life just as you say  :)
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 03:38:54 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

S
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Listening to it, it seemed to me that the genuinely hard thing to do is to say without excuses some version of I did this, I was wrong to do it and I can see that it hurt you in this way. No place to hide....that is quite a brave thing to do for any human....and of course, we risk rejection as well. Bc other folks are under no obligation to accept our sorry. It’s a kind of nakedness really, isn’t it?

It is indeed a brave thing to do and as I and the three children have been reading, listening, learning from so many PMA books, podcasts etc as well as having therapy and coaching - it is the only thing that is acceptable for us all.

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It sounds as if some part of the conversation was, idk, comforting or confirming to you in some way?

It was the validation I needed to hear.  5 years ago I would have probably grabbed it with both hands and tried running very fast towards reconciliation.  In hindsight - that would have been a big mistake because I wouldn't have been truly ready and detached enough to handle it.  I doubt I would have been ready to truly get such a profound comment from him any earlier anyway.

I needed to hear the words - I needed to hear him say I'm sorry- you mean something to me and I wish I hadn't done what I did without any excuse or justification or attempt to shift blame. 
I now have had the words and I'm not jumping through hoops for joy.  I'm just glad to hear this validation of something that I believed in all along and that my knowledge of H prior to BD was not wholly misplaced.

It is another step forward for both of us.  However I am not going to  work towards reconciling - I don't see or feel the need to.  H is on his path and I'm on mine and it's really very very ok!

10 years though almost since BD......10 years of my life that I never expected to have but 10 years that have propelled me to a better life than I could have imagined prior to BD.

To all newbies out there - you may read this as hope and you can.  However take it from me - hope is very different from waiting. Standing is very different from waiting and equally your life is too important to ignore and put on the back burner for anyone  (critical illness situation aside). 

Every step you take - move forward. Don't hop or dither - move and move forward.  Take your eyes off your MLCer and focus on the here and now for you. 

It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

Just move forward for you!
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Just putting it out there....... nearly 10 yrs later - I learn what I always believed that deep down H never stopped loving me.

It is always interesting to hear about how these men and women end up so many years later. And as we know, it never was about our marriages.

Even if they "love" someone else, I also believe that there is still love for us....they push us away because they want something else and they know they cannot have that and still have feelings for us.

Quote
If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

An apology, some words to accept responsibility for what they have done is the normal and appropriate thing to do when you have hurt someone. Some will never be able to do it, maybe they truly believe that this was all for the "best"....

Thanks as always for your thoughts and observations. I wish to reemphasize for any newbie reading this, everyone's situation is and will be different. I know I used to desperately look for stories that showed me that MLC ends, that some will make it back to their families....somehow those stories would calm me when I was in such a state of fear.....

It is a very hard road for us, something was forced upon us and all the rejection, betrayal and abandonment that goes with it. You will move forward, there really is no other way because life continues and the human spirit will search for a better place to be.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Him " I bitterly regret that - It was the worst mistake I have ever made to do that to you and the family. I cannot apologise enough.  What's so sad is that I really thought that you and I would be together for ever. We were meant to be together for ever. "

Not much to add, but sometimes they say things in a way of an apology and it is more in a form of self pitying. They feel more for their pain than ours. This apology had some depth to it. Some insight and feeling. It feels like a genuine loss for him, but an acknowledgment also of your loss and the families loss and that he accepts that responsibility.  Thanks for sharing

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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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WHY

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It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation. 

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 06:53:40 AM by UrsaMajor »

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It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

I don’t think anyone (that has been here a while) dismisses what Song is saying. We have always talked about ‘living like they are not coming back’ (even if they still physically live at home). Standing as it’s generally coached here isn’t contrary to that (at least I don’t feel it is). It’s ‘GALing sensibly’ whilst ‘keeping the door open (well, ajar really)’ that makes both moving forward in your life possible and gives a reconnection down the road a chance (even if not a reconciliation). We all just need constant reminders (I def do! ::) )to detach and keep moving forward (so as always, thanks Song).
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« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 06:53:57 AM by UrsaMajor »
M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

I don’t think anyone (that has been here a while) dismisses what Song is saying. We have always talked about ‘living like they are not coming back’ (even if they still physically live at home). Standing as it’s generally coached here isn’t contrary to that (at least I don’t feel it is). It’s ‘GALing sensibly’ whilst ‘keeping the door open (well, ajar really)’ that makes both moving forward in your life possible and gives a reconnection down the road a chance (even if not a reconciliation). We all just need constant reminders (I def do! ::) )to detach and keep moving forward (so as always, thanks Song).

Wise words from Song imho.
The tough likely truth - and the one that most of us don’t really want to fully swallow when we first come here - is that our spouse has almost always unilaterally and irrecoverably changed the landscape of our marriages, families and way of life.
I am not sure it is possible to move forward - whatever that means for you - until or unless one reaches a point of accepting that. And that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.
The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.
I believe it is very important to have deep respect for where any individual LBS is at a given time, as well as understanding that this is a process too and that LBS evolve in their POV and priorities as they stumble forwards. But respect is so important when we come here having been profoundly disrespected, devalued and often lied to and manipulated....it takes longer than we all might wish to find our feet after that, doesn’t it?
With hindsight - and the caveat that I long ago stopped seeing Standing as relevant for me - my best take on it is that it is perhaps more about how wide a gap in the door you are prepared to allow and what kind of different relationship you are prepared to have longer-term. And that probably takes a bit of time to work out too.
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« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 06:54:23 AM by UrsaMajor »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


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I am not sure it is possible to move forward - whatever that means for you - until or unless one reaches a point of accepting that. And that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.
The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.[


So True Treasur - and I did just that for a long time - longer than I believed I ever could or would. It became comfortable and as one of my favourite show's mantra states " Nothing changes if it isn't challenged"

I'm going to give a different example of  standing that perhaps might resonate with others.  When my middle child (D) was 16 - she ran away from home. She had met this rather undesirable person at her college and in the middle of her job shift - she told the store manager a complete lie about a family death, took the train and went off to a large city with this undesirable.

I was beside myself as was H. H was all for going and dragging her back by her hair if necessary. Two weeks later she returned- very rebellious and so began a series of disappearances for the next 2 years.  Each time getting longer and longer - the longest being 6 months without proper contact other than a quick text to let me know she was still ok.

When it first happened I had to tell my boss (who had no children but plenty of neices and nephews of D's age). Her advice was this " Let her go - keep the door open and one day she will come back to reconnect.  There is no guarantee that she will be the daughter you hoped she would be but she will return as long as you don't push or cajole or persuade. Just keep the door open"

She was right - 2 yrs later D returned - relationship truly over.  The next couple of years were chaotic and unpredictable and she was in denial about her own behaviour. She left home but lived locally for the next couple of years and ran up huge debts which I had to cover etc...... 10 yrs on though from her initial running away - she had a baby (my gorgeous little GD) and now 7 yrs on I am incredibly proud of my D who has done the work on her health, mental well being, she is in demand as a performer and trainer. 

It took me a long long time to equate the words of my boss with what H did - but then I didn't really understand or know about MLC and I was so personally hurt that it took time before I really grasped the principle of leaving the door open.

LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN (if you want to).However only do it because it serves you and your children. A clinger will always come back through the door (open or not) and yo yo frantically for years. A wallower won't even realise the door is open as they are so shut off in their own worlds. A vanisher will not know until or if they decide to make contact.    The only person who will truly keep the door open is the LBSer........and you can still decide not to stand.

Basically eyes off the MLCer and back on your life.

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BD march 2013
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Reconnection started 2017.
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Quote from: Songanddance on February 20, 2023, 05:43:36 AM
It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

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Quote from WHY: I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

Each situation is different. The LBSer doesn't really get the choice to "send them on their way" because many have left on their own, are in other relationships, become vanishers not because of anything the LBSer does. In some cases perhaps the LBSer allows the MLCer to live at home but even when they are living in the same house, they are living separate lives and come and go as they please, do what they please, see who they please........

As like most everything else, you cannot "fix" them or increase your shot at a reconciliation by either sending them away or letting them stay, nor by standing or not standing.

Now regarding "standing"...Song has expressed what we "preach" all the time....

GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

Standing is an intensely personal decision and I disagree with Treasur's assumption:

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The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.

Accepting

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that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.

is achieved regardless of whether you decide to stand or not. It doesn't have to be one way or another.

I was never told to stand or not to stand, I did however know from the earliest days that I was "standing"...some say here that means the door is open or left ajar a bit...it doesn't mean that I have only been waiting for our marriage to be restored and somehow have missed out on living my life.

I do believe that MLC happened to him, changed him and is something that occurred without a "conscious decision" and I wish it had not happened but I accept that it did.

Standing for me, accepting that whatever this MLC/depression/brain change/crisis  is......leaving the door ajar....allows our family to spend time together, allows me to forgive him and live without anger or bitterness towards him, allows me to be comfortable to be with him recently twice when he was hospitalized and take care of him while he was recovering, allows us to enjoy watching Super Bowl together...without expecting anything from him..because I accept that his life is his to live and I cannot change any of that.

But I also value the sacrament of our marriage, and that cannot be erased. When we married, there were three at the alter, God, my husband and myself and God and I are still in agreement.....

There is nothing about standing that will hold you back from living. If this is what God has placed in your heart (and that is not something that everyone will experience) but if it is, then all the debate about the "dangers" of standing are nothing.

Standing is not only for those whose religious beliefs are a part of their decision, standing is for anyone who believed that their spouse was a good partner, that their marriage was strong, that they would like a chance to reconcile if that every happens. It isn't a tool or a method to increase the chances of reconciliation, but a philosophy that comes from one's heart.

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« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 06:06:58 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Standing is an intensely personal decision and I disagree with Treasur's assumption:

Quote
The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.

And yet Treasur has managed to identify how I stood whilst still in the same house as my MLCer for 9 years. 
Now we're separated I have a clearer picture and realise that  I am on the fence.

The door is open - does this mean I am standing in terms of believing that my H will come back? No it means that that should H be willing to do the hard work and should I be in a similar frame of mind and we choose TOGETHER to reconcile then that is something that my standing has allowed. Equally - just because we have separated and not chosen to divorce doesn't mean that we will reconcile and that call will be on me.  I just don't want to make that decision yet because currently my life is too good with what I am doing and achieving to keep thinking or reflecting on the state of my MLCer and my marriage.

The door is open and it will be up to me to shut it. 

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Standing is not only for those whose religious beliefs are a part of their decision, standing is for anyone who believed that their spouse was a good partner, that their marriage was strong, that they would like a chance to reconcile if that every happens. It isn't a tool or a method to increase the chances of reconciliation, but a philosophy that comes from one's heart.


Standing is about choice and it can and perhaps "should" be a daily choice - not a decision because it is the "right" thing to do.  XY is correct - standing has nothing to do with the chances of reconciliation - it means that you are free to choose based upon your own understandings/beliefs/ philosophies/experiences and outlook on life.

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BD march 2013
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Reconnection started 2017.
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Quote from: Songanddance on February 20, 2023, 05:43:36 AM
It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

Quote
Quote from WHY: I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

Each situation is different. The LBSer doesn't really get the choice to "send them on their way" because many have left on their own, are in other relationships, become vanishers not because of anything the LBSer does. In some cases perhaps the LBSer allows the MLCer to live at home but even when they are living in the same house, they are living separate lives and come and go as they please, do what they please, see who they please........

As like most everything else, you cannot "fix" them or increase your shot at a reconciliation by either sending them away or letting them stay, nor by standing or not standing.

Now regarding "standing"...Song has expressed what we "preach" all the time....

GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

Standing is an intensely personal decision and I disagree with Treasur's assumption:

Quote
The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.

Accepting

Quote
that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.

is achieved regardless of whether you decide to stand or not. It doesn't have to be one way or another.

I was never told to stand or not to stand, I did however know from the earliest days that I was "standing"...some say here that means the door is open or left ajar a bit...it doesn't mean that I have only been waiting for our marriage to be restored and somehow have missed out on living my life.

I do believe that MLC happened to him, changed him and is something that occurred without a "conscious decision" and I wish it had not happened but I accept that it did.

Standing for me, accepting that whatever this MLC/depression/brain change/crisis  is......leaving the door ajar....allows our family to spend time together, allows me to forgive him and live without anger or bitterness towards him, allows me to be comfortable to be with him recently twice when he was hospitalized and take care of him while he was recovering, allows us to enjoy watching Super Bowl together...without expecting anything from him..because I accept that his life is his to live and I cannot change any of that.

But I also value the sacrament of our marriage, and that cannot be erased. When we married, there were three at the alter, God, my husband and myself and God and I are still in agreement.....

There is nothing about standing that will hold you back from living. If this is what God has placed in your heart (and that is not something that everyone will experience) but if it is, then all the debate about the "dangers" of standing are nothing.

Standing is not only for those whose religious beliefs are a part of their decision, standing is for anyone who believed that their spouse was a good partner, that their marriage was strong, that they would like a chance to reconcile if that every happens. It isn't a tool or a method to increase the chances of reconciliation, but a philosophy that comes from one's heart.

And what about physical intimacy?  Basically write it off for a decade?  I find it hard to GAL and live “as if” when not being able to be with anyone else because you’re still married. 
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And what about physical intimacy?  Basically write it off for a decade?  I find it hard to GAL and live “as if” when not being able to be with anyone else because you’re still married.

I'm not going to be able to answer this.  Remaining intimate with an MLCer is each LBSer's personal choice.  Mine was pretty clear - H had an OW. 

There is differing advice on this forum about this. If you were incredibly and very frequently intimate before BD then the sudden loss of such is very hard to handle. This is why some LBSers might decide that they are not prepared to stand.  They don't want to lose the chance of having close and intimate relationships and so they decide that this might be one of the reasons why they can't stand. 
 
Some will place the closeness and previous deep connections of their marriage above intimacy and decide to stand to gain that before the need to be intimate again. 

Each to his own. 
If you want intimacy and you want it with your wife - then yes, you may have to decide whether to stand or not and also decide whether to pursue  an intimate relationship with her ,even though you know that at this moment in time she is not committed to you and may refuse to maintain a physical relationship.
Or you can choose to stand and be "celibate" but then again there never is any guarantee that the MLCer will choose to return to the marriage. It might not take a decade and then again it might.  Who knows?
That's the really frustrating and sad part about MLC - there is no guaranteed timeline only averages based on anecdotal information.

Or you choose not to stand.

It all comes down to a personal choice based upon your beliefs, your needs, your wholeness and your moving forward as an LBSer.

Sorry - I did say I wouldn't be able to answer your question.
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And what about physical intimacy?  Basically write it off for a decade?  I find it hard to GAL and live “as if” when not being able to be with anyone else because you’re still married. 

To add to what S&D said, which I agree with (none of us can make that decision for another), as a person no longer standing who has been divorced for almost ten years now, I can tell you that "singlehood" is not a guarantee you'll have a sparkling intimacy life either. If the bar was very low? Sure, there are plenty of potential partners who will probably add to your trauma in the long run. Or if you're just looking for casual experiences, you can probably find them easily. But as far as meeting your next soulmate within two weeks of your papers being signed, that's a unicorn story you shouldn't believe. It takes time to find out who you are, what you want out of real relationships, and to meet someone else who is a match for that. At least, that's what I hope. ;) I've met some duds along the way, had some good experiences and some not-so-good ones, and still don't place all of my bets for happiness on someone else. In the grand scheme, what I'm trying to say is, if it takes 5 or 10 years, that may not end up being as much wasted "intimacy" time as you think.
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A wallower won't even realise the door is open as they are so shut off in their own worlds.

Song this is an interesting comment.  Does that mean LBS needs to be more explicit about the door being left ajar with wallowers?
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A wallower won't even realise the door is open as they are so shut off in their own worlds.

Song this is an interesting comment.  Does that mean LBS needs to be more explicit about the door being left ajar with wallowers?

I think you've missed the point WHY.  An LBSer never needs to state that the door is open to any MLCer - just decide that for yourself and that it stays open today or tomorrow or till whenever and leave the MLCer to it.

No explicit explanation required - just leave them to it regardless of what kind of MLCer you have.
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Does that mean LBS needs to be more explicit about the door being left ajar with wallowers?

Identifying an MLC "type" if indeed the person who left is actually having a MLC and determining what different things to do for the various types is watching the person under a microscope and hoping that some intervention will turn them around.

I totally agree with Song..sharing anything with the MLCer is unnecessary....they left, we decide how we want to live our lives but telling them anything about that may backfire as it can be seen as "pressure"....

We get on with our lives. If we think that someday we would accept them back that is our own choice. The thing is, if the MLCer wants to come back, they get through their tunnel, they "return" often still broken but at least they have some idea of what they might want again, it won't really matter what type they are....but I do strongly believe that this return must come from within them.

Actually (and I don't know this to be true but I think people like to believe it to be so...remembering that MLC is not about the marriage) many people think that they are more likely to return if they truly think they have lost you. So opposite of what you are suggesting.

I don't think it matters. The only thing that matters is healing of one's self, regardless of the outcome. To do that, and many here have stated it, you take all the focus off the MLCer and concentrate on building a life as a single person, however that might look to you.

That might still mean that you have contact with them...but that contact is often very superficial and meaningless..because unless the crisis is somehow resolved (and no one knows how this happens) they are truly not engaged in any meaningful relationship with you.
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 04:53:05 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Song is so right!

A wallower seems to completely shut down emotionally.
They just wallow in their misery.

You won't reach them no matter what you say, or what you do.

All you can do is leave them alone and live your life "as if" they are not coming back.
If they do it will be a nice surprise, but you haven't wasted years waiting around.
At that point you may even find you no longer want them back because you have created a good, happy life without them.
That's the chance they take.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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That's the chance they take.

Spot on Thunder.   Exactly.  The MLCer took a chance on the marriage by walking away from it (or running as in many cases).

The chance of them choosing to return is still unquantifiable but the chance of a reconciliation is actually up to the LBSer.

The LBSer is always in a much better position when it comes to the latter part of the crisis.  The LBser has options - the MLCer has none - they gambled with people's lives, hopes, dreams and love and as we know there are always 100+ times more losers than winners in gambling. 
The LBS's options are :
1. Wait around and hope for the best - stage watching the MLCer
2. Stand for the marriage and get on with own life
3. Stand -even if divorced for specific reasons either within or beyond control
4. Always consider the option to drop the stand
5. Choose to divorce for greater reasons than above
6. Divorce and have no contact with the MLCer (often no choice if it's a vanisher)
7. Grow and develop your own well being and mindset so that regardless of what the MLCer does now or in the future - the LBSer is free to make the decisions whether to reconnect, reconcile or not.

Looking back my first option was #1 then it became #2 once I realised that I was wrapped up in stage watching.  Then after 2 yrs or so - 7 and it still is 7.  I know that I am free to choose my life and my MLCer, (if I decide I want back in and TBH I don't just yet) will  just have to do the hard work.
He took a chance and now he's paying the consequences and he's increasingly aware of it.
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Me - 60, xW - 54
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation & 21 at D-Day
S - 16, D - 12
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BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019
Moved on in life

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Morning all - Just to acknowledge that 10 yrs ago 31st March 2013 - my life then took a turn that was so unexpected, so traumatic I never thought I would recover or live the life I had expected to live.  H Bd'd me with ILYBINILWY and OW.

And it's true. I'm not living the life I thought I would lead. I had just turned a new decade and was looking forward to all children leaving the nest and becoming what they wanted to be.  I had high hopes and expectations that H and I would continue to "thrive" and in ten years or so - really enjoy each other's company in retirement.

How wrong I was.   

And Yet I am grateful yes GRATEFUL for all that has happened.  Yes I went through trauma, Yes I needed and received therapy. Yes my S turned to drugs and Yes My work life took such a tumble that I was bullied into early retirement.  But you know what - I wouldn't be where I am now if none of that had happened.
So here's my reasons why I am grateful:

*  I own my own home
*  I am a grandmother to a wonderful little girl who I adore and have a close relationship with
*  I have three amazing adult children and my S would have probably gone down the route he took when he went to uni (let's be honest about the reality).
*  I have a career post retirement that I would never have thought possible.
* I am reconnecting with friends old and new
* I am continuing to work on myself, my mindset and my self worth and self talk
*  I have a husband who has had a major crisis (2 If you count his stroke) and who is learning that grass is not always greener the other side of the fence and that actions have consequences.  So he too is learning
* I am living my life for me - nobody else

 NOTE - In owning my own home I am painfully aware that in this case and unlike many of the LBsers on here I was lucky. But luck stands for Labouring Under Correct Knowledge  and so I worked hard, made sure I was on all the deeds, paid my way so that in the end I was fairly given my share of the house when we sold.

However the rest of my gratitude is nothing new and accessible to all.  Being an LBS sucks!  The first few months or years are incredibly hard.  And yet we survive. And yet we can Thrive.  And yet we become who we become.

I never thought I'd still be on this forum a decade after BD and the reason I pop on from time to time is to give you hope and a belief that all will be ok.

My therapist asked me at the beginning "What did I want"   
I said " To be ok"   
Her reply " If Ok were on a scale of 1 - 10 - where are you now?" 
My reply " 3"
"Where do you want to be?"
" 7  I guess."
And the work started.  10 months later she asked " Where are you now?" 
"6 maybe 7"

And so it grew - 10 yrs on from BD I am now "20 out of 10" on the OK scale. 

Life will always challenge you, it doesn't mean that you can't overcome them. Sometimes it will break you but it doesn't mean that you can't be repaired as good as new.

So where are you on the OK scale?  Where do you want to be?  What can you do to get there?

My advice - read lots of PMA self books, get out into life as often as you can, get a reality check from time to time and appreciate yourself with good self talk, develop your self worth.

Finally the best book I have ever read about mindset and it unwittingly explains the MLC behaviour of our spouses is "The Chimp Paradox"     

So everyone take a breath, tell yourself you are ok, and live life regardless of its challenges.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

b
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Well Song , I never thought I would still be hear a decade later either. Almost impossible to believe. My BD was also in March of 2013 and absolutely nothing has ever been the same . Not one thing.  How much power we unwittingly give to people we love and we believe love us ....that in a few words our life is changed in ways we never imagined.  I can say I never really got me "happy ending " either even though my H returned.  In my heart of hearts I believe I likely should not have attempted to reconcile , at least not as quickly as it happened . But hindsight means nothing at this moment. My H ( as you likely know) came from deep childhood trauma and it is my opinion that he will never truly fully heal from those profound wounds.  I could write an entire book about life with a spouse that was abused in childhood and it is not pretty.  One of the most interesting things that a therapist told me was " if you are wounded inside of a relationship , than your healing must happen within a relationship".  I never really understood that but now I do.  My H was profoundly hurt in every relationship from infancy on, all the relationship that are meant to make you feel the most safe. He will not be able to rise above those woundings and scars to form a close intimate relationship with me.  Of that I am positive and I do believe I have fully accepted that fact. He will live as an avoidant, emotionally underdeveloped, fearful of intimacy and an island for ever. I no longer pursue or expect change whatsoever. But the hope of "change" is what inspired me to attempt to rebuild... alas, no truly happy ending here either.  But I can surely identify with many of the things on your "grateful " list.  I am in the midst of change internally, growing and evolving into who I want to be ..for ME.  Not so much for my marriage. I think I like that a lot .
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

S
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I'm not living the life I thought I would lead.

I realise that when I wrote the above quote, I might have intimated that I am "unhappy" with the life I am now leading.  The exact opposite is the case. 
I think I have been working on and  beginning to live my best life.

Quote
I can say I never really got me "happy ending " either
Is having a happy reconciled marriage a "happy ending" ?  I don't know so much now. 

I am reading Chimp Paradox again ( it's unbelievably accessible in its information). The author -Professor Steve Peters talks about our values, our truths and our mindsets.

In the section The stone of Life (which is the mindset we all carry with us) he breaks it down into the Truths of life.
The Truths of Life are how you believe the world works.  He uses the maxim "Life should be fair" as an example

He said that if this becomes our truth of life we are less able emotionally, psychologically, mentally and physically less able to deal with situations that are "unfair".   We are so fed the concept of the "happy ever after" syndrome that traditional disney style fairy tales give us that it is easy to become conditioned to thinking that life should be fair to all.  But in truth it simply isn't. If it were true - there would be no wars, no poverty etc...
So his argument on this is that if you adopt the truth such as "Life isn't fair"  you are more conditioned to accepting that stuff happens and its how we respond to it that matters.

He talks about values and how they are the foundation of our moral and ethical principles that we abide by and yet they are ours alone. We cannot impose those upon others.

He then poses this brilliant question - What is your Life force?  "Imagine that you are 100yrs old and on your death bed. Your great great grandchild asks " Before you leave us - what should I do with my life"

Your answer to your GGGchild is your life force. 

I'm going to share mine because it took me a couple of days to really establish what mattered to me above all else....

"Live each day to the full. Understand life will not always go your way and when it doesn't, take time to see if and how you can adapt and if you can't, move on.  Believe that when one door closes, another will open. Be kind to others and yourself. Believe in yourself, explore your opportunities that may well come at the oddest times. Practise gratitude daily. Be true to who you are and be prepared to grow and learn because when the student's ready the teacher will appear. Finally - treat others as you wish to be treated and value who you are, what you stand for and what you can show others even when things frustrate or anger you.  Life will only ever hand back to you what you can handle at that moment so grasp it with both hands. "

Quote
I am in the midst of change internally, growing and evolving into who I want to be ..for ME.  Not so much for my marriage. I think I like that a lot.

And Barbie - this gives me so much joy for you!
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« Last Edit: April 07, 2023, 03:12:04 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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I never thought I'd still be on this forum a decade after BD and the reason I pop on from time to time is to give you hope and a belief that all will be ok.

I’m so glad you do pop in Song! You have definitely been one of the shining lights that’s given me hope for that bright future. I’ve always known that I was going to be ok. I know a bit about myself (not everything that’s for sure and I do regularly surprise myself!  ;D) and I have always rebounded well. But to get ‘proof’ that I wasn’t crazy to feel that way (when at the time I was so profoundly wounded), is invaluable. I thank you (and the other similarly ‘far ahead’ vets) sincerely for continuing to post here.

(I’m going to go and google that book now)
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« Last Edit: April 07, 2023, 03:07:31 PM by Evermore »
M: 53 (48 @ BD), H: 55 (51 @ BD); Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 24 (19 @ BD), D: 22 (17 @ BD), 'Extra D': 22 (17 @ BD)
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW - he (supposedly) met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.
Jun 20: H plans to buy a block of land and build a house with her (never happens).
May 22: Movement... (likely T&G? Time will tell I guess)
May 23: Yep, definitely a T&G last year. Still have contact but very minimal. He is a long way away from me these days. He doesn't seem particularly happy in his new life... but he's still there soooo....

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Re: life force. I really enjoyed your life force, Song, and it brings to mind, would that have been EXACTLY what you would have said prior to BD? Or might there have been something about love and marriage and having a soul mate?  Not that there would have been anything wrong with that, but I know for myself that after BD I learned a lot of things I saw as being "true" were not true.

It seems to me that a person's Life Force can morph throughout their life. I often wonder if BD and everything that followed wasn't some kind of Life Force course correction, in my case anyway.
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When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

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Re: life force. I really enjoyed your life force, Song, and it brings to mind, would that have been EXACTLY what you would have said prior to BD? Or might there have been something about love and marriage and having a soul mate?  Not that there would have been anything wrong with that, but I know for myself that after BD I learned a lot of things I saw as being "true" were not true.

It seems to me that a person's Life Force can morph throughout their life. I often wonder if BD and everything that followed wasn't some kind of Life Force course correction, in my case anyway.

Agree OR - would that have been my life-force before BD?  Yes in a way but more about people pleasing, avoiding conflict and yes valuing a marriage with its highs and lows. 

Now I realise, as I think so many of us do, that we have to be whole people before we commit to a long term relationship.  We have to value the partner as much as we value ourselves.  Sometimes people use soul mate to mean filling the gaps in us - "our other half"    No; two people create a marriage and those two people need to be individually whole in that marriage, not a combined whole.

An example - very recently my former colleague (and best closest friend when I was working) died very suddenly - a very aggressive leukemia took him after only 3 weeks of illness as symptoms were hidden and masked.  He was in his late 40s with a lovely wife and 2 fab children.

It has been a heartbreaking time because this man touched so many people's lives in so many ways.  He had been with his wife for 20 yrs married 18 and she was understandably devastated.  But what is interesting is how she has risen to the situation.  I always knew that this couple were 2 individuals in a happy marriage. They were not conflict avoiders, they were honest to each other and they were very much their own people but adored their spouse.   At no point in my 11 years with my friend did I ever hear him complain about her and we would talk a lot about our lives. (He was an invaluable support to me with BD and subsequent years). She had her own career and also they supported each other in their own ventures.

It was heartbreaking to see her, but she is forward thinking and is aware that the children need to be encouraged to keep one step in front of the other, to share feelings and experience their grief and also to know that they are surrounded by love.  She is making sure that she is talking to people, she is using her family and his to help her and she is also making sure that she too keeps putting one foot in front of the other.

She and He were whole before they met.  They both showed what a happy and valued marriage truly is.  Be true to yourself and practise gratitude for the love you have for each other.

This is something that I think has passed me by - no don't get the violins out. But I do wish I had lived a little more and found out who I truly was before getting into a relationship with H straight after divorcing my first H. 
Not because I wouldn't have married H and neither do I think that that BD wouldn't have happened or that BD was totally dependent upon my behaviour.....NOPE! None of that.   
However, I would have possibly not taken so long to heal and to realise that I had to find me and who I was. 

It's all conjecture and you cannot assume anything. But my friend's sudden and unfair death has once again highlighted the need for living each day to the fullest. Telling those around you that you love them and making sure that you are grateful for every tiny thing.

Whoops - done it again....630000 words for the simple answer I intended to give  ;D ;D ;D
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« Last Edit: April 10, 2023, 02:01:10 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Song, you hit the nail on the head.  It does take two wholly functional adults to make a marriage work.  My new marriage is a testament of that.  We are two unique individuals who made a conscious choice to blend our lives, and we both did so fully knowing who we are apart from our union and that when bonded together, those two parts make one strong, supportive and emotionally balanced environment anchored by love, faith and hope.

I can honestly say that I was not in this same place when I chose to marry my xh at 25, and that my ideals were very immature and idealistic in the sense of the nonsense soulmate drivel.  What I've experienced and learned since my xh chose a different life path with no regard to my well being whatsoever has definitely changed my life force and focus....and all for the better.  Sometimes our biggest successes are borne of our seemingly biggest failures.  It's all about  one's perspective and approach.
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S
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Morning all
UPdate - nothing new to report really. H and I still living our own lives in our own houses.  The difference is that H is now very lonely (I see him once a week as does D) and even though he works from home with his business partner - he claims he is lonely.

When he's talked about it with me - he has received validation but also the truth dart - " This is what you wanted and created H"

He has begun to apologise more and more about his crisis and his actions.  Part of me though is very cynical because I now know he was always good at manipulating me into doing things his way and prior to BD I learned not to call him out on his behaviour and now I do.  He has told me that he still loves me (I knew that) and that he misses me.  I have told him that I still love him (which I do) but my life is moving forward and he will always be a part of my life; but I'm not ready or willing for us to work on the marriage - which is also true.  I like who I am on my own. 
Equally H's stroke has affected him and he continues to talk about being in a fog and constantly tired.  Part of that is lack of good nutrition and fluid (he barely drinks enough water) and part of that is the physical impact of the massive brain bleed which TBH should have killed him. So he has minor brain damage.
The thing I have begun to learn about H is that, since his stroke, he is really struggling with the concept of learning things that he should know anew.  H is a very clever man - he is incredibly talented in his field of work but he now finds it difficult to retain information that prior to his stroke he would have absorbed and utilised in a heartbeat.   His memory is shot in places and this is not just post MLC and he is very very pre-occupied with his perceived lack of ability.

I have pointed out the irony to him that for such an intelligent man - I cannot understand why he can't understand that he needs to do the work to get the neurons in his brain functioning again, such as simple repetitive execises recommended by the physios and drinking enough water; it baffles me.

However that's not the reason for me posting....
I had coffee with a friend who has been more of an acquaintance but we get on really well.  I knew something was wrong when I met her at a rehearsal and so suggested we meet up.  We did and she tumbled out  pre MLC feelings and frustrations. 
There I was listening to a pre-MLCer and knowing it and knowing too that she was about to do things that she would regret.

I listened and told her I understood the feelings that she had not because I had had them but because H had had those feelings.   She wants more but she doesn't know what it is.....

Anyway she talked, I listened. She's talked to others who have told her to "stay in the marriage/ put up and shut up" approach.  She's told others who have advised her to go and do what is right for her and if that means breaking up the marriage and children then so be it.
She has had lots of conversations with her H and he wants to know what to do to fix it.  She doesn't know. She said herself " Is this a Midlife crisis?"  I replied with "Is there someone else?"  Nope so then I explained to her that this could be a midlife transition which many people faced.  The thing you didn't do in either case was take drastic action that couldn't be taken back.

Needless to say our coffee lasted 2 hrs with her talking and me listening. I chose not to validate any of the advice she had been given because I disagreed with both.  I tried to "peel the onion" and she was a little reluctant but yes she has FOO issues.

She then changed the subject but we came back to it again.   I told her I couldn't and wouldn't advise her but I did suggest that she perhaps seek a therapist to help her analyse why she might be feeling this way (not a counsellor or life coach)
I asked her not to have any R talks with her H for at least a week (they were talking almost every night) and to focus on the children and the remaining weeks of the summer holiday as a family as much as she could.  I also asked her to call me if she felt the need to vent or a bit of space.

At the end of the coffee - she said " S&D - I feel as though I've had a therapy session - thank you so much"
I asked if she felt that she would choose not to listen to those who had not been where she is right now.  She said that she understood and would just focus on the next few weeks and aim not to say or do anything that was impulsive.   And that was it.

I will message her every week or so - just to keep in touch.

The sad thing is I felt helpless.  Despite knowing about MLC and MLT for over 11 yrs now, I felt helpeless.  I wanted so much to say to her " Don't do it" but she was so bewildered and confused and she felt guilt mixed in with a deep desire for nothing more.  All I can hope is that she continues to share with me, find a therapist and not take any drastic action. 

MLC in its early stages from the other side....... :-\ :-\
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« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 01:52:31 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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S&D - I think having you is amazing for her. She may have just avoided a full a MLC, because she has a sounding board and ear of someone that understands. If every MLCer could have someone recognize the signs and acknowledge their confusion and let then know where to start to sort through their emotions and confusion, maybe there would not be so many tragic stories. Maybe this is what this forum will do. More awareness and more ability to see it in our co-workers, neighbors, friends and family. I stepped into a situation recently with my sisters in laws and although I could not help the MLCer  I was able to help the family understand what was happening.
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« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 05:05:19 AM by MadLuv »
There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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Quote
I told her I couldn't and wouldn't advise her but I did suggest that she perhaps seek a therapist to help her analyse why she might be feeling this way (not a counsellor or life coach)

This whole experience has taught us a great deal and being able to pass that along to both MLCer's as well as LBSer's is so incredibly valuable. I know, immediately when I talk to someone who has been through this, there is a connection that family and freinds who have not been through this "get".

My husband was seeing a "life coach" and I don't know what she told him...it's quite possible he was told to go after his dreams, it was his time now. There is a train of thought that this is what we are supposed to do. There was a story I read in the last few days, a women who felt that she had to leave her marriage to "find" herself. The idea that marriage is for life is scoffed at, personal "happiness" is often stressed.

And what do I know? I never experienced a need to leave my husband in order to find happiness...I built a life that incorporated my own needs into our marriage and I would have been happier had our marriage continued.

It is always good to read about your observations of your husband's journey as well as your own. Thanks for continuing to share your story.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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And so it's December .....

Not much to update in that H and I still in separate houses.  I'm getting on very happily with my life and seeing H once or twice a week at most.

But perhaps in the light of so many newbies - a little bit of hope might be helpful.

I'm nearly 11 yrs in with a stay at homer for 9 yrs until I pulled the plug.

H is now well and truly through his crisis.  He has apologised and shown genuine remorse.  He introduces me to people as his wife.  He hates being on his own but understands he needs to grow and become a sensible adult.

He has recently started to ask if there would be any chance of us fully reconciling - now 4 or even three years ago - I would have probably jumped at it. Now though - now I am healed and whole - I am not ready to commit to any form of reconciliation until I believe that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again.

This is the challenge of being an LBSer is that we become (if we weren't already) fixers/ rescuers and this is something that took me ages and ages to grasp.

You cannot fix your MLCer - You cannot rescue your MLCer.  YOu can only fix yourself and however long that takes - it has to take priority over everything else. 

However last night - I went for a coffee with a man I'm working with at the moment.  We get on well.  However red flags rose when he mentioned that he was divorced from his second wife ...... But that's not why I'm posting this.  It became clear to me that I'm just not keen for anyone else to be part of my life. 
Maybe that's because I still love H enough (maybe I do) or maybe it's because I still need to grow for me and continue to learn to love myself enough for me.

Does H consume my thoughts - Absolutely not. Do I think about him? Yes almost  daily but that's because he was part of my life for so long; it's habit. 

Does he think about me a lot - he says he does. He says that doing what he did was the biggest regret of his life and that his biggest hope is that we would be together again.

I am not going to dash his hopes and neither am I going to inflate them.

SO for newbies - understand this.  You cannot fix or rescue anyone other than yourself. Focus on what really matters and if that means children - then focus on you and the children.

The MLCer will come out of this crisis at some point; whereever you are at that point is unknown. 

Hope if you want to but realise that this is an extra-ordinarily long process for not just your MLCer but you.  One decade on from BD - my life is totally different but it's what I have carved out for myself based on my choices.

You have choices - make sure they're healthy and emotionally whole.

I don't post often or come on here very much at all now.  HS was a huge part of my life for 7/8 years. Now it's not.

My heart goes out to all newbies....breathe, focus on you and take one day at a time and realise that you are worth fixing - not your mariage or your MLCer - just you.  The hardest journey always begins with the first step and one foot after the other.

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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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Thank you so much for this!! Exactly what I needed this morning.
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M
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Great post and if I can add, at least for me….. the MLCer really doesn’t want a rescuer. I have learned where I thought I was helping  I was making things worse. I think my words of helpful wisdom were nails on a chalkboard to my MLCer.  I think they want  to grow up and learn to handle their own issues, even if they dont know it fully.

Thanks again… great post
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

m
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ML,

What were you doing to try to help, if you don't mind me asking? Just curiosity. If you'd prefer not to answer, I more than understand.
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M
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Mcm- I replied on your page as to not highjack S&D page.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

t
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I can totally relate. You and I are pretty much in the same place and following similar paths.

I can relate so much to your post. Thank you for sharing. I sometimes feel very alone and awkward because I have not jumped at the chance to reconcile. It’s very hard to explain why but you explained it quite well.

Happy Holidays songanddance.

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BD Feb 2014
DONE

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Quote from: Songanddance
He has recently started to ask if there would be any chance of us fully reconciling - now 4 or even three years ago - I would have probably jumped at it. Now though - now I am healed and whole - I am not ready to commit to any form of reconciliation until I believe that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again.

I have to ask the obvious question (and TMT can also chime in here as you are both in similar situations/positions)....

And what would that - "that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again" - look like for you? What would need to happen, what would he need to do that would allow you to believe that he has really done the work he needed to do.... Naturally, that will be different for every individual but as a "generic" concept....
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Quote from: Songanddance
He has recently started to ask if there would be any chance of us fully reconciling - now 4 or even three years ago - I would have probably jumped at it. Now though - now I am healed and whole - I am not ready to commit to any form of reconciliation until I believe that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again.

I have to ask the obvious question (and TMT can also chime in here as you are both in similar situations/positions)....

And what would that - "that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again" - look like for you? What would need to happen, what would he need to do that would allow you to believe that he has really done the work he needed to do.... Naturally, that will be different for every individual but as a "generic" concept....

For me - one thing- it would have to be him choosing not to keep focussing the attention on himself. At this moment in time - after we have hugged when we have met - his first words are often something like this...." I'm having a terrible day.....I'm very busy.... I'm glad you're here because you can help me......"  that kind of thing.  Much of any conversation is rooted around him still. 
He has also been diagnosed with adult ADHD by a psychiatrist (which actually explains so much) but his whole thinking is about him "curing" it so that he can function better because it's affecting his business.

He is however getting better at listening and is beginning to really hear how challenging S can be but he stops short at wanting to actually stand up and admit his actions destroyed S.  He says that he is sad to hear how difficult it can be for me but yet again it's platitudes or he will try and tell me what I should say to H.  He still wants to be in control.

A second thing would be not to forget that we had planned to meet or to change plans and not let me know until I got there.  For example - we were going to do some carol singing together - I said I would travel to meet him as the meeting was near his home.   I started the 40 min drive, got stuck in traffic and was rather delayed.  All the time I kept him updated and he never replied to the texts.  I arrive - ask the others where he is - they haven't a clue.  I phone him  - his comment " Oh it's too cold - I don't like getting cold so I stayed home"

I mentioned the texts - "Oh I didn't think to check to see where you were."

That kind of thing...... would be nice not to have happen - to be an after-thought. To be asked if I'm ok - to be phoned because I was late and check that I was safe etc..... 

At our oldest D's recent wedding - he met S for the first time since we separated (20 months ago).  All he said to him and our other daughter (both of whom were diagnosed with ADHD some time ago)  "Hello S - I have to apologise to you ....It;s my fault you have ADHD and I'm sorry."

For a fleeting moment I actually thought he was going to apologise to S for breaking his heart.  But no.  S just looked at H and said " S'alright." and walked away.

They talked very little at the wedding but S was very civil and also kind to H. 

So what would a repaired former MLCer who has had a stroke look like for me?  TBH - I think I would just know.

Admittedly his stroke has set him back in that he has lost dexterity in his hands and so cannot do much of what he excelled at before in his engineering business.  He sometimes has to be reminded to use the fork the right way when he eats. 

So my dilemma is do I consider reconciling because he genuinely needs my help and support when in actual fact all I could end up doing is rescuing and fixing  more for him (I don't wish to sound callous) because of his stroke?
I was his aide- de memoire throughout our marriage - do I have to be the one who does that again and more? I don't want to seem unkind - but until he stops looking at himself and how life has treated him badly 100% of the time, I just don't think he's healthy enough to work on proper reconciliation.
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Quote from: Songanddance
He still wants to be in control.
<...snip...>
A second thing would be not to forget that we had planned to meet or to change plans and not let me know until I got there.
<...snip...>
 I don't want to seem unkind - but until he stops looking at himself and how life has treated him badly 100% of the time, I just don't think he's healthy enough to work on proper reconciliation.

Thanks S & D for the answer!   :-*

This all makes perfect sense to me... and, if I were in your place, I'd very likely be seeing it the same way. I was just wondering because, like I said, that probably looks different for every MLC/LBS combination because each situation is, despite the similarities in the overall scheme, different in the details
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Quote from: Songanddance
.
At our oldest D's recent wedding - he met S for the first time since we separated (20 months ago).  All he said to him and our other daughter (both of whom were diagnosed with ADHD some time ago)  "Hello S - I have to apologise to you ....It;s my fault you have ADHD and I'm sorry."

This is what stood out for me - that he can only now relate because he has the diagnosis himself. Like 'let's talk about my ADHD'. That's the sense I get - although perhaps  it wasn't quite like this.

Quote from: Songanddance
.
So my dilemma is do I consider reconciling because he genuinely needs my help and support when in actual fact all I could end up doing is rescuing and fixing  more for him (I don't wish to sound callous) because of his stroke?

No one could EVER accuse you of being callous S & D. Lesser mortals would not shown the same patience and grace. Your guidance to others on the forum is testament to your generosity and empathy.

Do you think the stroke may have further changed your H mentally? I know a stroke can change people and be the cause of depression. Sometimes temporarily, other times more permanently, depending on the nature and size of the stroke.



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« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 07:18:39 AM by KayDee »

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Do you think the stroke may have further changed your H mentally? I know a stroke can change people and be the cause of depression. Sometimes temporarily, other times more permanently, depending on the nature and size of the stroke

Oh definitely and probably more permanently. I did wonder myself only a few weeks ago whether he actually had more brain damage than we realised.  H had a brain bleed in the right parietal lobe; it was extensive and the neurosurgeon said that he hadn't seen quite so much blood before. Add to that he also said he was surprised that H even survived and could talk and improve as fast as he did.  He had very low expectations of H's recovery if he even survived.

H has struggled with depression probably on and off all his life and the ADHD diagnosis would support his fluctuating moods and erratic impulsive behaviour which I just put down to high energy and high intellect.

I think I don't expect H to get "much better" or even back to what he was unless any medication he's prescribed helps. I think he has brain damage (he can't have an MRI - medical reasons) and so we will never know.

This is why I don't want to appear callous.  If MLC hadn't happened - I would have been caring for and with him and would have done so because I wanted to.  Now - I would never abandon him, but I cannot be his keeper or minder.
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Oh, this must such a hard situation to navigate. I know from some personal experience (not MLC related) how life altering strokes can be.

My initial thinking was - well, this is a consequence of abandoning your loving partner and your family. The unconditional love, the 'in sickness and health' etc, which flows from the LBS, it is compromised, fractured, if not utterly broken in the wake of BD. I guess, when the MLC disposes of their loved ones, seemingly without a thought, they don't have this on their mind. We, the stable spouse, we endure a lot. And we have to learn to expect nothing from our former spouses. In the early days, we can barely expect a kind word, let alone any kind of support for illness and so forth. So it's must be such a complex mix of emotions for you S & D, but, I just can't imagine anyone would consider you callous.
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 01:14:56 PM by KayDee »

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Seems that the Universe allowed for the MLC BD to happen prior to the stroke so you are not obligated to become a nurse maid. There was the female co-worker who globbed on to him, he could reach out to her for help. Please don´t box yourself in to being a caretaker when you finally opened up your box.
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It seems to me that when we say ‘the marriage you had is over at BD’ - legally or not - it’s because a kind of implied psychological contract is broken. And that was seemingly their choice at the time. Regretting it later, as some MLC spouses seem to do, doesn’t change that. We mourn it so hard at the time bc we valued it so deeply, but our grief doesn’t change that either. And we LBS are forced to change our lens on a lot of things because of that, aren’t we? And some of those changes become our new normal so that, even if an MLC spouse wants to go back in some way to the old contract and the old spouse they had, we are no longer quite the same as when they BD’d us. In fact, quite a few stories here suggest that MLCers seem a bit taken aback by that no matter how long it has been since BD which is a bit of a WTF in itself  ::)

So, the old ‘deal’ was broken into a million pieces. All of those ‘in sickness and in health etc’ things that we would have done before with (mostly) love and grace bc of how we saw our part in that deal and team effort of a long marriage. Which means that we get to choose what/if we are prepared to offer or not and it’s ok if we do. Bc post BD, it’s a new ‘deal’. Or not. Doesn’t make us callous or selfish or unkind…just means we are living in a different normal than we used to live in. And I think fwiw you are being commendably clear-eyed about that. So, it’s ok to choose what you are or are not prepared to offer in a new kind of relationship with him if you choose to have one, and indeed what you require of him.

I think your ‘parp parp’ system about his self centredness is a useful one. I’ve seen it in quite a few stories here when returning spouses still seem remarkably Me-Me ish, way more interested in what they want to get from some kind of reconciliation than what they might need to give. That may evolve with time - some longer term reconciled here seem to suggest it does, but with years rather than months - so for the moment, it would seem sensible to me to accept that whatever relationship you form will be with someone who still  is disproportionately self focused. The causes of his self centredness might be multiple ones - MLC, character, effects of his stroke, fear of the future - but in a way that doesn’t matter bc you are still dealing with a self-centred person. It’s up to you to decide what feels comfortable and healthy for you in that kind of relationship and what  ‘new deal’ you are prepared to put on the table imo. I imagine though that it must feel much easier to contemplate this from the security of your own home and your own rebuilt life than from where you were a while ago….if nothing else, it means you can take your time to consider it.

On a separate note, how is your son doing?
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There was the female co-worker who globbed on to him, he could reach out to her for help

And he still does.  He took her to meet the psychiatrist when he went for his first appointment because " She doesn't take my BS and will call me out if I say anything potentially untruthful or embellished"

I found this staggering and called him out on it.  I said that whilst I was not prepared to be his "nursemaid/carer" I was far more qualified to call him out on his BS than she ever would be because he had not abandoned her; he had not broken up her family etc....   He was shocked that I was so angry with him.

That said - the psychiatrist did ask her not to interject or speak unless H proved to be incapable of giving correct information. The psychiatrist also told him that he owed me a huge apology because I had provided him with a secure scaffold all of our married life and that the reason H was struggling was not just down to any diagnosis; it was down to the fact that he broke the one thing that gave him security and safety.

I just said " I knew that - tell me something I don't know!"   And yet quietly I thanked the psychiatrist for at least calling his behaviour out. 
Finally he and she are not getting on as well anymore - he claims that she has said she is getting tired of him and his moaning as well as not running his business (that she thinks she saved single-handedly)

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Please don´t box yourself in to being a caretaker when you finally opened up your box
Rest assured FTT - Absolutely NO intention of doing that.  I'm liking my new found life far too much.

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I imagine though that it must feel much easier to contemplate this from the security of your own home and your own rebuilt life than from where you were a while ago….if nothing else, it means you can take your time to consider it.
One word to both statements - Totally!

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I just can't imagine anyone would consider you callous.

I would hope not but when you are a newbie  and you read my actions;  when you are in so much pain and still very much enmeshed in your love for the MLCer - it might seem that my words and actions are those of a tired and frustrated LBSer who is losing patience and becoming terse - something that as a newbie you hope you would never become.   Does that make sense?


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Makes perfect sense to me.
I know we vets choose our words carefully in responding to newbies bc we remember what that was like. Having said that, I’m not sure you should temper your thoughts on your own posts - newbies may not find it chiming but your experience and reflections are solid in their own right.

On a tangent, OMG that ow is something else. And something very weird indeed. Trying to imagine any circumstance where I woukd think it appropriate to trot along to a psychiatrist appointment with someone else’s husband, let alone an employer - even some of my long standing dear male friends of over 30 years - and I just can’t. That is one twisted puppy, very textbook ow imho whether there is an affair or not. And I suspect the psychiatrist saw it for the far from normal thing it was.  ::) Very very weird imho.

Still, it’s another good reason to not get drawn back closer to him right now - what healthy normal person wants that kind of dysfunctional BS in their life, right? And if he can’t see it, well….that’s another choice with consequences, isn’t it?
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I just can't imagine anyone would consider you callous.

I would hope not but when you are a newbie  and you read my actions;  when you are in so much pain and still very much enmeshed in your love for the MLCer - it might seem that my words and actions are those of a tired and frustrated LBSer who is losing patience and becoming terse - something that as a newbie you hope you would never become.   Does that make sense?

It does. And I am a so-called newbie, but I sometimes feel old and wizened, and pickled in vinegar and it's only been a year  :) so, you know, hats off to you S & D, for remaining so balanced. I guess I wanted to say, that what shines through your posts, is both strength and compassion.
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« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 11:09:39 AM by KayDee »

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That is one twisted puppy, very textbook ow imho whether there is an affair or not. And I suspect the psychiatrist saw it for the far from normal thing it was.  ::) Very very weird imho.

Agreed - I have had several conversations with H about his feelings for her and he is adamant that there is nothing going on (I've told him I don't believe that he doesn't have feelings for her)  and she has certainly distanced herself considerably in both personal and business terms.

Last year she was giving him lifts all over the place - and this year she has stopped and only turns up for work when there is something she actually needs to do.

Like all people H attaches to since MLC - they soon get tired of him. 

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I´m surprised that the psychiatrist was willing to even have the appointment with a third party in the mix - one who had contributed to the dysfunction. Was she there to keep him "honest" or to make sure that he didn´t throw shade on her? And, who gives a $h!t- he is still oh so messed up to do that, tell you and then act surprised at your reaction. Keep you peace and sanity. Step away from the mess.
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Hi Songanddance,

Thanks for the update. You sound in a good place.

You continued to live with your husband for a long time. You have been together for decades.

My thoughts? It is possible to still have care and concern for these men. It is possible to lend them a hand if necessary, all the while doing what you are already doing...living your own good life.

It is different for other posters...they will not see or speak to their spouse again. But some of us do continue to have a relationship with them.

My message is always the same broken record...these spouses had a crisis at a variety of levels. They did do many things, yes divorce being one, but I do not want to hold any of this against him..because I truly believe that with MLC, as evidenced by the thousands of stories here,  they do many things that make no sense..especially in comparison to the person they once were.

You have made your own choices about contact with him all along. You know what you are doing, always have and always will.

What you do show him is compassion, while at the same time protecting yourself.

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Christmas came and went and as usual for the last ten years - it wasn't a family get together.

S refusing to even be in the same room as H so separate meals for little groups all over the place and me torn between all of them.

Anyway - it's just a day and tbh - apart from my GD still believing - it's no big deal and it's a first world problem.....so much more important stuff going on in the world.

H is getting more and more open and expressing how he feels. He has asked me to consider us getting back together at some point - but that was because he was feeling lonely - so not really an attempt at reconciliation.   :D ::) ::)
My response was - " Who knows H. I like my life as it is  and we can continue to see each other once a week and continue to be good parents - what more do we actually need?"

However he has definitely turned a bit more of a corner and is less about him and more about what is going on with me and the family.

When a huge argument blew up recently between S and D (and I totally agreed with S in my head) I was on my way to see H. S phoned and was fuming - so I phoned H - told him I wasn't coming over after all - turned the car around and went to find S.

To explain why H has turned the corner......
The argument was over a dog's lead. S has struggled with the loss of our wonderful dog 3 yrs ago now  and we use his lead to walk our current dog (sort of keeping the memory alive on a daily basis).  D cavalierly announced that she had dropped the lead on a three mile walk and play with the dog (there are a few places near us where dogs can run free safely) and had made no attempt to find it (stating that she was tired)
She made no attempt to apologise or even suggest to go and look for it again.  Meanwhile it is dark and storm Henk is hitting the UK shores. S is furious and leaves the house - meanwhile I have received his angry phone call and am  turning around to come back.

S drove upto the field and I arrived soon after.   Together we searched in the torrential rain and S found it 30 mins later in a massive puddle. He sobbed and sobbed because it meant so much to him. Back at home - he hugged me and thanked me for turning round to help him as it really made him feel that I was important to him.

How did H respond when I told him I was going to turn around and why?   
 " S&D - our children have to the number one priority no matter how old they are.  Go - help our son - I will ring D and explain why she needs to change her thinking. This is the right thing to do.  You are a good mum and he needs you.  "

This is the corner he has turned.  It can happen.   MLC takes TIME!!!!!
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Thanks for sharing that S&D.  That is definitely a different mindset.
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Thank you for continuing to share your journey S & D,

H is getting more and more open and expressing how he feels. He has asked me to consider us getting back together at some point - but that was because he was feeling lonely - so not really an attempt at reconciliation.   :D ::) ::)
My response was - " Who knows H. I like my life as it is  and we can continue to see each other once a week and continue to be good parents - what more do we actually need?"

I'm curious to know, what this would look like for you? Or is it one of those situations where you'd know when you see it (feel it)? It seems you are pretty content with life as it is now. I notice, reading other reconnection and beyond stories that there can be, for want of a better word, a stubbornness in some who are recovering from MLC, which perhaps masks an inability to be vulnerable to rejection. Given that fear of rejection and abandonment is often an issue with MLC, is this something you recognize in you H? Or more that he still has not fully faced the issues?

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2024, 08:59:39 AM by KayDee »

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I'm curious to know, what this would look like for you? Or is it one of those situations where you'd know when you see it (feel it)? It seems you are pretty content with life as it is now.
I also wonder after so much time if reconnection just stays at a friendship or if it stays at a friendship and then slowly builds to a new relationship if ever. I think it’s great that he is finally opening up a little.
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
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Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
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Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
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Morning all

Been a little while.   Just wanted to mark the fact that on March 31st (first day of British Summer Time) it was 11 yrs to the day of BD.
Ironically I looked back at the calendar for 2013 March 31st and that was exactly the same day of the week as this year and also the start of BST then.   Co-incidence?  Maybe.

Nothing major has changed since my last update. H and I still living separately, (officially 2 yrs now) and I'm still seeing him regularly.  We walk the dog, we talk and we spend nice times together.  But he's still in his own little bubble.

He has acknowledged so many times now that he was responsible for breaking the family apart, that the life he is living on his own now is something he never wanted but now has to accept. He is increasingly saddened that he has no relationship with S at all.  He is becoming more proactive in helping out financially too. He has paid for certain bills that affect the children such as  S's car needs a major repair and H and I paid for it upfront but H  and insists that S just pays me back and not him.

He is becoming clearer in his head from the stroke and new medication and that is making him feel better too.

Last week we were walking the dog and she bounded upto him.  I said "isn't it lovely how she gives such joy to us all?"  H replied - " Yes and you are the other joy in my life. I am so grateful that you haven't given up on me and that we can spend time together"

So - the question I was asked in an earlier post was - what would reconciliation look like for me?

TBH I don't actually know.  It would have to include total openness, honesty, transparency and commitment to each other that would be boundaried but healthily so.  I don't know - I'm just burbling; One of the many things I have learned on this mad LBS journey is that you can only control the controllables; you have to remove expectations and focus on what genuinely matters to you at any point.

Does my marriage matter to me at this point?  Not really  in that I am very content with how I am currently living my life.

Would I like to reconcile - yes because that's always something I believed would happen. 

Will it matter if we don't reconcile and live together again?  Not to me because both of us are connected at a really good level and so at this moment in time, it isn't necessary or essential to be "reconciled"

There is life after BD, there is joy after BD, there is hope for yourself after BD. 
There are opportunities to grow after BD and there are times for laughter and tears after BD.
There is always the chance to choose joy after BD.
There is always the chance to learn and become a more whole person after BD
There is hope after BD, there is faith after BD and there is love after BD.

It's just a matter of time.

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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

M
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  • Gender: Female
If there is a good scenario in this situation I feel you have it.  If your family cant stay together than at least the person has some realization of what they have done and reconnect in some way, because when you spend and dedicate your life to someone you want them to always be a part of it and for it to matter.  The only negative is his and his son’s relationship and hopefully that can turn around. It’s so important.

You know in the original movie “the women” which is a MLC movie thru and thru… when the little girl is told of her parents divorce and the mother is trying to shield her of her fathers infidelity, so she speaks as if it is a mutual decision. The daughter asks, but mother I thought when you love someone you love them forever? Does that mean you will stop loving me? She said, no of course not. The daughter then says, well then I don't understand. The mother replies, it’s different with children.  The girl was completely confused why. She has something there!! 

Thank you for the update S&D
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There is almost something harder about someone being alive and having to lose what you believed to be true of them than someone actually dying.

Indefatigability - determined to do or achieve something; firmness of purpose
perspicacity- a clarity of vision or intellect which provides a deep understanding and insight

Married July 1991
Jan 2018 BD1 moved out I filed for Div/ H stopped it
Oct 2018 moved back
Oct 2020 BD2
Feb 2021 Div-29 1/2 years
July 2021 Married OW
Feb 2022  XH fired
May 2023 went NC after telling XH we could not be friends
Aug 2023 XH moves w/o OWife

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  • Posts: 5091
  • Gender: Female
You made me stop and think SD.....Bomb Drop for me was Easter 12 years ago. Where does the time go?

Nothing major has changed for me either, but we are together and thinking about retirement. There are still triggers, there are still intrusive thoughts, but they don't last long. I found my voice, my courage and myself. It is a hard way to find these things. :P S, now 21, is developing a relationship with his father which is wonderful. I didn't think it would happen...... ???

I think reconciliation looks different for everyone...I think everyone comes out a different person in the end.
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Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

t
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Songanddance - your story so resonates with me.  I am in a very similar place as you.  Going through many of the same things as you.  I am so very happy in my life, but I do find this place to be a bit lonely at times.  When bd happened, it was just terrible, of course.  Dark times.  But so much support and empathy here that I was able to finally move forward.  I felt understood with what I was going through.

This stage, it leaves me a bit quiet and I don't discuss it much.  It's a difficult place to be sometimes.  I've heard "well this is what you wanted why aren't you taking him back" = I've also heard " I thought you were done, why are you even entertaining anything"  There's been the "after everything why do you even speak to him, you don't make sense". 

So not only am I guarded regarding the x but I'm also guarded in sharing my thoughts and feelings about where I'm at now with anyone. 

I'm thankful that you post Songanddance.  I can relate to your thread and it helps me.
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BD Feb 2014
DONE

K
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  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Oh, I hope you feel supported and heard here TMT. I for one have found your posts extremely helpful. There's something so ineffable about this whole MLC journey we are put on. I often find myself waffling and contradicting myself, even to my therapist (especially to my therapist). On one hand I still hold concern for a man who is clearly in trouble. On the other, I am suffering from his actions. My friends and family have been fantastic, and many have tried to be sympathetic towards H, but even the most sympathetic have written him off now. I am not holding onto the marriage, or the notion that he will come back. I am moving forward. But I do still waffle and have times of feeling so conflicted. So, to reiterate, to you, to S&D, Barbie, Slowfade (so many more that have reconnected) - thank you for your honesty and bravery in sharing. I, for one, feel less alone.
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