[Songanddance]

I think I have come to a point that although I don't see what is so "special" about his life compared to the life we had and could have, it is what he wants.

Good to hear xy.  That particular point where those of us who do not reconcile, can really see the wood for the trees is incredibly enlightening for our souls.

I have difficulty "asking" friends for help and so I am still really cautious about activities in this post COVID era. I also had a trip in the middle of the night to ER...taking a Lyft home after being cleared but being alone to process my feelings about what had happened...and being asked who to contact by the ER staff..."

This must be incredibly challenging and I fully understand your "difficulty" as I used to be like that.  One thing I have learned though is that self sufficiency is great but so is being able to ask for help/support from those that aren't in your family.  I don't have a close circle of friends at all; I don't have a group of female friends to go out to lunch with etc.... Yes I have my children close by but they are my children.   One thing I have learned though is to ask - working on the principle that if you don't ask you don't get.  People can only say no and more often than not -they usually say yes especially if they can deliver an act of kindness (not out of selfish reasons but because more often than not kindness is in everyone)

I miss our life together and what could have been

This is a lyric for the chorus of the LBS song if ever there were one.  I too miss our life together but it's the life of the good stuff and I realised that I believed that if I overlooked the bad stuff it would go away.  In fact I miss more the dreams I had of our retired lives together. That is definitely something that isn't going to come true any time soon....


As a further update though - yesterday was the day when I go and see H. I always take the dog to see him and we go for walks before it gets dark.  As usual the dog then cuddled up on the sofa where H was sitting (she does adore him) and he was giving her fuss and love.  Then it was time for me to leave - the dog looked up sleepily as if to say "No I want to stay here, where I'm warm and cosy and snoozy"  H then fussed her and said " I'm sorry **** but you have to go back to mum's house now.  I know you don't want to and I'm really really sorry. It's my fault I broke the family apart."
 
Knock me down with a feather time.  He apologised to the dog!  Funny though that is - I knew then that he was on the start of learning to apologise and perhaps the dog was the metaphor for me or the family.  Who knows?  I said nothing.

Onwards and upwards......

[UrsaMajor]

What was the sequence again? Wasn't it, "First the dog, then the friends, then the kids, then Lord God King Buku and everyone else in the universe and then maybe someday the LBS themselves." ?

[toomanytearss]

Funny how we count our “anniversary” from bd now. I’m coming up on 9 years on Valentines Day. Where we are at are so similar. I’m not divorced either but separated. Neither of us cares about divorce at this point. We get along. He lives in a different home. When he is back from his work in Alaska we spend time together. A dinner out or something. Talk on the phone occasionally and text occasionally. It also feels like a friendship to me. There  is nothing deep or intimate. A hug hello a hug goodbye. An I love you. No different than my best of friends except my best of friends and I have much more deep and meaningful conversations.

The x still has a blind spot to our youngest d. He thinks because she accommodates his existence sometimes that all is well. Lol. It is not. I quit trying to explain to him that he abandoned her. She needs to be his first and only priority. He needs to step up. It’s a waste of breath. So I no longer try. His loss.

I remember my therapist telling me, after several sessions with the x, that he is a lost soul. I thought that when he got through all this he might find himself. He is still a lost soul. I have such sadness for him. But I do not let him play that stuff on me. I’m very quick to shut him down when he steps on my boundaries. He’s still a man child in most ways.

I go on with my life and live it the way I choose. But I many times feel like I’m in limbo of my own making. Do you ever feel that way?  I convince myself this is not a bad place to be. X is nice to the kids and me. No more horrible times. We lived a life together for a long time. It doesn’t feel right to just go on without him at all but sometimes I feel like I’m not going on at all with him. Does that make sense? 

You are a strong woman Songanddance. To handle all this and know your path.  I feel as you do on most of it and I feel strong most of the time. It’s those times I’m sitting and pondering that start my confusion of where it’s all at now.

Yours is not the same man you married and mine is the same man I married. Lol. I guess we can only take it one day at a time. Or one decade at a time.

I hope the new year brings good things to you and happiness and ease.

Tmt

[Songanddance]

I go on with my life and live it the way I choose. But I many times feel like I’m in limbo of my own making. Do you ever feel that way?  I convince myself this is not a bad place to be. X is nice to the kids and me. No more horrible times. We lived a life together for a long time. It doesn’t feel right to just go on without him at all but sometimes I feel like I’m not going on at all with him. Does that make sense?

Yes and perfect sense.

I really appreciate people saying I'm a strong woman - I always have been a bit bullish and determined plus a control freak!!    However inside I know it's not always the real me; the people pleaser, the enabler, and for many times in the early years after BD the victim.

Strength shows itself in small doses, self -respect, personal growth, being aware of your core authenticity and not apologising for it but to work on the weaknesses and nurture the strengths.

I have always loved life and I had a dream of how things could be.  That dream has had to be replaced by a new reality and yet I have learned that if you stick to just one fixed dream you could be disappointed so my dreams evolve as situations change.  That's what keeps me moving forward. 
Yes like you I do sit and reflect and I certainly don't do an "if only..." anymore. 

I still consider H my husband because whilst we're separated we are still legally married. I see nothing wrong with that even though my S thinks I should just go ahead and divorce him now.....he hates the fact that I'm still "attached " to H.  S has well and truly re-written history as he now states in many of his rants that H never loved him, never wanted him, was always physically abusive towards him and was never a good father to him.

None of that is true but S is so twisted in his own demons that I doubt highly he will ever choose to listen.  H does love S very much but just cannot understand why S feels this way. Because our D's forgave H - he thinks S should.  H was so excited when S was born - he seemed even prouder and keen to look after him more than our Ds.  H was never physically abusive to S - he never struck him except once well after BD when testosterone was flying between them and S lashed out first.

In terms of support and encouragement H was very keen for S to have the best education even offering to pay for private school (something he didn't do with the Ds) but then again, as he did with the D,  he rarely turned up to parents evenings with me.......

H became more of an "absent" father rather than a physically in your face kind of father. That is also on me for not calling H out on it and letting him get away with it because I wanted peace and to please him.   
 And then BD.....

[Songanddance]

Quite a significant update

I regularly see H once a week, we spend time walking the dog and then the evening meal and watching a film. I'm usually the one to visit as H struggles to drive in the dark since his stroke almost 2 yrs ago.

During our meal recently H mentioned that he wanted to put his house in trust for middle child (D) and that as older child was settled and younger child (S) wanted nothing to do with him - if when the time came she wanted to sell she could and keep the proceeds. His thinking was the other two children would split my house sale when the time came.  I baulked at this and the conversation moved onto S and H's relationship with him.

H said he couldn't understand why S was so vile to him......so out the came the guns but with both barrels muffled. Calmly and coolly I explained that because H had put his hands on him S felt that he had no father.  H became defensive and he clearly remembered doing it and tried to justify how he had "assaulted" him.  I said each time he came out with an excuse " You had no right to out your hands on him - you were not in any physical danger, he hadn't physically attacked you and you had to defend yourself. It was your desire to be respected and treated with courtesy from him even though at the time you had destroyed our family." 
Eventually H looked at me and said " What does he want from me?" 
" Accountability and a genuine apology"
" I have apologised"
" When? what did you say by way of apology"
" Two years ago after my stroke- I said that I was sorry if he felt hurt by it"
"That's not an apology H - no where near. You instigated the physical assault - he was being a really badly behaved teenager and that did not warrant you laying your hands on him.  I also did nothing about the situation when in reality I should have kicked you out because regardless of your affair - you had absolutely no right to assault him and it broke all of my boundaries about parenting too. I was weak and did nothing so it's also on me. I have apologised to S but it will take a long time before he truly accepts my apology and moves forward from feeling abandoned by me."
" So what should I say?"
" I'm not telling you what to say but a genuine apology is something like this. I'm truly sorry for my actions, my behaviour and for physically attacking you. It was wrong of me and I understand that I caused you genuine hurt and emotional pain and I also accept that you may never want to forgive me for that."

H nodded. Then he looked up and said "What happened to me?"
Me - "You lost your mind and all sense of logic and loyalty by going off with OW"
Him " I bitterly regret that - It was the worst mistake I have ever made to do that to you and the family. I cannot apologise enough.  What's so sad is that I really thought that you and I would be together for ever. We were meant to be together for ever. "
Me " Have I divorced you? Have I abandoned you and found someone new?  No.  I thought we would be together for ever and in a way we still are but not as a married couple.  In fact H - that and your stroke has done us both a favour.  I am happy with my situation and you are learning everything you forgot about being a truly independent person. Both of us were broken and both of us need to heal. We get on better now than we ever did.  If we can stay friends - then it's a win win situation."

He deflected and said " Yes but if ever you wanted to see someone else I wouldn't stand in your way."
Me " Thank you for that - but I have no intention of finding anyone else to muck up my life!

And then the dog jumped on the chairs to the table and caused a complete and welcome distraction.

Just putting it out there....... nearly 10 yrs later - I learn what I always believed that deep down H never stopped loving me.

However until S and H begin to sort out their differences - our status quo will remain and that's fine by me.

[UrsaMajor]

Well, if THAT wasn't the "HIMARS" of all Truth Telephone Poles, I don't know what is.


It seems as if he heard you though.... Now the question is whether or not he will actually DO anything about it (particularly with S)

[Treasur]

Strangely enough, I was listening to a podcast about saying sorry in a constructive way yesterday (podcast is The Bunker, and it was talking about it in the context of politics though). The contributors has done guiding principles on the difference between a useful apology and one that is not so much....pretty similar to what you described, Song.

Listening to it, it seemed to me that the genuinely hard thing to do is to say without excuses some version of I did this, I was wrong to do it and I can see that it hurt you in this way. No place to hide....that is quite a brave thing to do for any human....and of course, we risk rejection as well. Bc other folks are under no obligation to accept our sorry. It’s a kind of nakedness really, isn’t it?

Still, your update does sound like a shift for him and you. Probably unimaginable not so long ago. And you sound good and steady, Song, which is lovely. It sounds as if some part of the conversation was, idk, comforting or confirming to you in some way? What a mess these folks make.....sad really. Funny though that he thought he still has the right to give you ‘permission’ or ‘not stand in the way’....to be entitled to a vote at all really....if you ever decided to create a new partnership with a new person......but a lot of us here will be smiling along with your not wanting to invite someone else in to risk mucking up your hard-earned good life just as you say 

[Songanddance]

Listening to it, it seemed to me that the genuinely hard thing to do is to say without excuses some version of I did this, I was wrong to do it and I can see that it hurt you in this way. No place to hide....that is quite a brave thing to do for any human....and of course, we risk rejection as well. Bc other folks are under no obligation to accept our sorry. It’s a kind of nakedness really, isn’t it?

It is indeed a brave thing to do and as I and the three children have been reading, listening, learning from so many PMA books, podcasts etc as well as having therapy and coaching - it is the only thing that is acceptable for us all.

It sounds as if some part of the conversation was, idk, comforting or confirming to you in some way?

It was the validation I needed to hear.  5 years ago I would have probably grabbed it with both hands and tried running very fast towards reconciliation.  In hindsight - that would have been a big mistake because I wouldn't have been truly ready and detached enough to handle it.  I doubt I would have been ready to truly get such a profound comment from him any earlier anyway.

I needed to hear the words - I needed to hear him say I'm sorry- you mean something to me and I wish I hadn't done what I did without any excuse or justification or attempt to shift blame. 
I now have had the words and I'm not jumping through hoops for joy.  I'm just glad to hear this validation of something that I believed in all along and that my knowledge of H prior to BD was not wholly misplaced.

It is another step forward for both of us.  However I am not going to  work towards reconciling - I don't see or feel the need to.  H is on his path and I'm on mine and it's really very very ok!

10 years though almost since BD......10 years of my life that I never expected to have but 10 years that have propelled me to a better life than I could have imagined prior to BD.

To all newbies out there - you may read this as hope and you can.  However take it from me - hope is very different from waiting. Standing is very different from waiting and equally your life is too important to ignore and put on the back burner for anyone  (critical illness situation aside). 

Every step you take - move forward. Don't hop or dither - move and move forward.  Take your eyes off your MLCer and focus on the here and now for you. 

It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

Just move forward for you!

[xyzcf]

Just putting it out there....... nearly 10 yrs later - I learn what I always believed that deep down H never stopped loving me.

It is always interesting to hear about how these men and women end up so many years later. And as we know, it never was about our marriages.

Even if they "love" someone else, I also believe that there is still love for us....they push us away because they want something else and they know they cannot have that and still have feelings for us.

If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

An apology, some words to accept responsibility for what they have done is the normal and appropriate thing to do when you have hurt someone. Some will never be able to do it, maybe they truly believe that this was all for the "best"....

Thanks as always for your thoughts and observations. I wish to reemphasize for any newbie reading this, everyone's situation is and will be different. I know I used to desperately look for stories that showed me that MLC ends, that some will make it back to their families....somehow those stories would calm me when I was in such a state of fear.....

It is a very hard road for us, something was forced upon us and all the rejection, betrayal and abandonment that goes with it. You will move forward, there really is no other way because life continues and the human spirit will search for a better place to be.

[MadLuv]

Him " I bitterly regret that - It was the worst mistake I have ever made to do that to you and the family. I cannot apologise enough.  What's so sad is that I really thought that you and I would be together for ever. We were meant to be together for ever. "

Not much to add, but sometimes they say things in a way of an apology and it is more in a form of self pitying. They feel more for their pain than ours. This apology had some depth to it. Some insight and feeling. It feels like a genuine loss for him, but an acknowledgment also of your loss and the families loss and that he accepts that responsibility.  Thanks for sharing