[MomOfSteel]

Well, I guess it’s time to start a new thread so here is a link to my last thread:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11959.150

Ready, in response to your last post on my thread, you are right.  We were going for a nonstandard splitting of assets but really even if the worst case is we split everything according to law, I will be just fine.  It’s really that he’s trying to get fancy and get out of paying alimony at some point.  As I’m guessing you are aware of it’s a long term marriage he could have to pay me until he dies if I don’t get remarried.  Guess he should have divorced me somewhere else.  It’s been quiet on the lawyer front today.  I’m glad for the reprieve, we threw the ball back I. Their court and now we wait.  The waiting probably will also benefit me as housing prices are quickly falling so if I have to buy him out of the house it won’t be much of a buy out.  I’ve also just told him flat out I don’t want to talk to him about the settlement for the last few times.  I’m proud of myself for just walking away and cutting it off.  He twists everything and it’s just getting old quite frankly.  I also agree there is no point negotiating now. 

My mom messaged me yesterday to say they found a suspicious lump.  The doctors did a biopsy today and the waiting game begins.  I’m praying it is nothing serious.  My family lives far away and the thought of being so far away with a possible cancer diagnosis really scares me. 

Treasur, I do have IC support.  xyzfc that is a helpful article.  I certainly see myself in it.  I guess I just see myself reacting is strange ways in my everyday life to certain things, places, whatever and it interferes and is unpleasant when really there is nothing there that should really cause a reaction.  See a car that looks like his, break down and get really upset, hyper vigilant at the grocery store and feeling like someone (him or OW is going to be there somehow around every bend- really I feel crazy because I know I’m okay intellectually but I get really triggered in weird situations).  I guess I just don’t know what’s normal at this point. 

on a happier note, I just stayed up way too late helping make a diorama with evil snowmen all over it with one of my kids.  We laughed and laughed at how ridiculous it was.  He said, “it’s a good thing dad isn’t here because he wouldn’t have let me do this.”  It really was harmless and turned out pretty funny.  To add them all over a school project hiding behind trees and peeking out.  Somehow I’m guessing his teacher will enjoy it and we sure had fun making it minus the multiple burns from the glue gun. 

[UrsaMajor]

Attaching -

I have a repair job to do on a pottery diorama that will involve a glue gun too and I am NOT looking forward to it as that invariably involved glue/ glue-gun burns.... NO fun....

[xyzcf]

See a car that looks like his, break down and get really upset,

I had a very strong reaction to this....years later (because for 10 years after BD he lived out of country) I thought I saw his car in my neighborhood and my "monkey brain" had a flood of thoughts, is that him? What's he doing here? Did he come to see me? It was absolutely ridiculous but sadly very real.

Understanding these reactions can help us sort out what is a real threat and what our amygdala (our reptilian brain) perceives as a threat.

[MomOfSteel]

Ursa, I hope you fair better than I did with the glue gun.  xyzcf, the problem is similar cars are all over.  I know it's just my brain making me crazy, but in the moment, it doesn't really help knowing that too much.  Hopefully with time it will calm the heck down.  I find myself increasingly exhausted this week.  After spending way too much time on the phone with my lawyer, I still am not sure what to do.  He has come to the conclusion that anything H finds remotely offensive to him in the legal process causes him to throw everything into disarray again as we are not appropriately bowing down to his generosity and genius.  It's exhausting.  I know later today I will again have to deal with this.  The truth is, I am not really sure what to do.  I either give H what he wants or we risk getting sucked in even further.  The longer this goes on, the worse it seems to get on what he is willing to do.  I just wish I had a crystal ball of the right thing to do and say to just get this over with and be done and move on.  In addition, we found out my mom has cancer.  It's been a rough week. 

[Standing Strong]

I'm so sorry to hear about your mom MOS 
That's horrible. I hope it's not one of the really bad ones (you know what I mean, there aren't any good ones).

I know several people who had the same thing happen during the legal process.
I'd say it all depends on what you need. What can let slide, and what can't.
Sometimes it seems like being firm with them is a good thing and works (but always has a reaction), and other times they are so intent on something they can't throw a fit and get over it. Just depends.

I don't know if he is talking directly to you or not, but in my case it's always been a good thing to allow them to try and solve things and to then hold them to what they say. You said xxxxx and we agreed to xxxxxx, we agreed to this for xxxxx reasons, what has changed? Then comes the fit, and don't be moved (my experience). It's a tactic on their part.... They go wild: they get what they want. That cycle has to either be broken, or abandon the situation (IMO). Since you're at the stage you're at, maybe it's at the fight out the door stage in which case that's what the attorney is for. The really bad thing about that situation is that opposition feeds the MLC'er..... I'm not sure how to walk that back and disarm them if it's come to outright confrontation.

-SS

[JohnnyBravo]

Sorry to hear about your mom, MoS. What a blow.

Sounds like your XH, Pacman's XW, and my XW are all related, in terms of "legal strategy." It's nuts.

Hugs.

[FaithWalker]

MOS, I was very glad that MLCer drove a different vehicle not very long after the D.  It helped me disassociate easier and now we both drive different vehicles.  I have never looked over and seen MLCer behind the wheel in any vehicle in town either.

[MomOfSteel]

Thank you FW, JB and SS. 

Just some journaling...

I've been pretty quiet lately.  I suppose I've just needed to pull inside and retreat for a while as life is feeling really overwhelming.  I've been feeling really anxious and like my life is out of control lately. 

The holidays were okay.  I spent them with family while H had the kids for 10 days.  It was a nice break from motherhood tbh.  I missed them, especially on Christmas, but I desperately needed the break as fighting feels like it's constant when they are home.  I finally got H to agree to pay out of pocket for therapy for one of our kids who I've had a hard time finding a therapist for that takes our insurance.  Their behavior is getting increasingly angry and out of control.  It is completely out of their normal character and I think it is probably depression that is causing the problem. 

I think we have finally reached a settlement agreement, mostly because I am just done fighting and even though I am not thrilled, it is fine and I will be fine.  I need this to be over and I need stability and to know what I will have.  (assuming he doesn't completely self implode) 

My mom just had more imaging and they found 4 more suspicious lumps on MRI.  Her surgery has been delayed pending additional biopsies.  I'm praying they aren't all cancer, but if they are, it is better to find them now.  That would seem to indicate she may have a multifocal breast cancer and will be looking at a double mastectomy.  I wish I could be with her through all this. 

My kids survived their Christmas trip with their dad and his mistress and her kid.  I'm starting to see some cracks in his little fantasy life he is now living.  It may not be all that he thought it would be.  Apparently he and the OW had a fight on the trip where he pulled her aside to talk to her for telling him he needed to act like an adult and help make decisions.  Who knows what his immediate reply was but he felt the need to then take our kids aside and tell them that he shouldn't have said whatever it was he said and told them to not repeat it.  It also appears like he really is struggling with managing his money.  I don't quite understand it, because he would have to be pretty irresponsible to be struggling.  It appears his big expensive house might have been biting off more than he could chew and maintaining this jet setting lifestyle with another person who at least in part is using him for his money is taking its toll.  I just am shaking my head since he keeps giving me all his best advice on being financially responsible as he has been telling me how what he pays me is so great and I should never struggle.  I guess he doesn't want to take his own brilliant advice. 

I feel myself becoming more and more bitter.  I don't like it.  I feel like my anger at him is just growing as the kids continue to struggle.  I want him to feel real consequences.  I don't like that I want him to suffer.  I don't like that part of me that is happy when I hear something bad has happened to him.  It isn't who I want to be and yet I still feel that way.  I know anger is part of grief, I just don't want it to be permanent.  I don't want his MLC and abuse to continue to have that power in my life. 

[MadLuv]

My XH is also struggling financially due to a very materialistic OW. Don’t kick yourself to hard for wanting “bad” things to happen. I think it is more so that you hope he wakes up from it. I feel that way also at times and I thought the same as you. How am I growing if I am wishing this negative, but when I dove into my thought process on why it was more for hope of his growth. For my kids and GS I just want a healthier father back and sometimes it takes the harsh reality of what they have done and where they “really” are to feel they will get there.

[xyzcf]

I suppose I've just needed to pull inside and retreat for a while as life is feeling really overwhelming.  I've been feeling really anxious and like my life is out of control lately.

When I hear "overwhelmed" I think about my own times with feeling this way and how my therapist would use a diagram to help me understand that I was in the "freeze" part of fight/flight/freeze...seeing this visually helped me to find ways to bring my nervous system back to the "green zone"..on this chart, to the left in the blue zone you'll see the word "overwhelmed"...I was so much in "freeze" that initially I could not even see the word!

https://corkpsychotherapyandtraumacentre.ie/trauma/polyvagal-theory/

You recognize your feelings of bitterness and anger. These are normal and real feelings and we can do something about them..for they are also harmful and draining...but it's important that they are recognized. Accept them as "normal" for we have been badly hurt and we watch our children struggle and it's ok to feel what we feel.

Acknowledge them and then let them go so they do not take over your life.

I am a big fan of meditative types of practices that calm the nervous system. Yoga has always been a way to help me maintain my equilibrium and it is a time just for me. There is an online 30 day set of classes that are free...they are each about 22 to 24 minutes. Over time, a practice such as yoga can help the body "reset". It is a cumulative thing as your body learns how to shut down the fight/flight freeze response and go into a calmer and more relaxed state.

https://www.youtube.com/user/yogawithadriene

Walking everyday, especially outside is also helpful.

Journalling your thoughts which you are doing here is another tool to use to get thoughts and feelings out and explore what they are and how you can change them.

The holidays add more stress as we see "happy families" getting together, as well, you have worries about your mom's health and your not being able to be there with her.

We can only handle so much and then our bodies shut down...and we start to feel "overwhelmed". Understanding the physiology of this, helped me a great deal to break out of those states.

[Nas]

I’m glad you got through the holidays and I’m happy to hear you are close to reaching a settlement. Hopefully once the settlement is in place, you will be able to breathe a little easier knowing that it’s one less thing to deal with.

Sending all good vibes for your mom too.
xx

[MomOfSteel]

ML, xyz, and Nas thank you.  I do need to get back to walking more.  I did it constantly last year but with our schedule change at the start of school I haven’t gotten in a habit of it being at a certain time.  Im glad to know I’m not the only one that hopes the karma bus whacks him.  Hopefully the settlement is signed soon.  It will be a relief. 

Just some more journaling…

H called from a trip where he apparently is at OW family reunion and while there met up with some old friends of ours.  I know I shouldn’t, but I feel betrayed that these friends would want to hang out with him and the homewrecker.  I feel like it just brought up all those feelings of betrayal and feel like it sends him the message that what he did was okay.  I talked to my best friend about this.  Her dad had a MLC and abandoned them.  She said even after all these years she still feels that way when people see her dad and act like it is okay. 

I’ve been meeting with a parenting coach to try and help deal with some of the behavioral issues this whole thing has created.  I’m just so tired of feeling like I’m slogging uphill in mud everyday trying to deal with everything. 

My to do list is so long I’m completely overwhelmed.  I’m tired.  I’m sad.  I’m lonely. 

[JohnnyBravo]

I hear ya, MoS. It's a long slog.

[Dragonfly33]

MoS I just wanted to tell you that after almost 4 years since BD there are still moments where I wish my xh would be run over by the so called Karma Bus. Most of the days I don’t care anymore what he does. And regarding our common friends that somehow consented to what he did, and even at some point encouraged him, I cut them from my life. I had one friend who continued to call me and still wanted to be friends with me but this friend was the same friend who encouraged my ex to prioritize his addiction with triathlon and who insensitively told me it was right for my H to be with another woman because I kicked him out. I told my family to unfriend her and I don’t feel guilty about it. What I’m trying to say that it is normal to feel betrayed by those friends. The feeling of being exhausted is also normal. Uou’ve been fighting on all fronts and at some point we will feel the exhaustion. But this is temporary, that I can tell you. I’ve been exhausted so many times and even on the brink of giving up. What I did was, I went on a holiday far away from home and it helped me a lot. It felt like reloading my energy. Perhaps you can go on a trip somewhere. Just to change the scenery. You’ll be surprised how helpful it is.

[MomOfSteel]

Just some random thoughts...

I feel like I have been just processing lately.  It's like my mind has decided I'm finally able to let myself feel some of this pain it was trying to keep from me early on. I feel like I'm in a cycle where I will feel good, will have some realizations about H and all the garbage and have to deal with the grief caused by that.  Where at first I really struggled feeling angry, anger is around a lot lately.  As I realize the unfairness, the emotional abuse that accompanies MLC or betrayal and abandonment I am angry. 

I had a day full of running from thing to thing to get everything done for the kids.  I really could have used another adult.  I found myself trying to hold back tears in an auditorium full of adults and middle school students because I should have had support, my children should have had support. I'm tired and worn out.  His parenting time is during one of my children's birthdays for the second year in a row.  I'm missing these things and it wasn't my choice.  It was his choice to do this.  I hate what he has done.  I miss companionship and support but I wish I never had to see or hear from or about him again.  I had to listen to my daughter say how she hates Christmas now because it will never be the same.  I try as hard as I can but I can never make up for that relationship he so carelessly severed.  I'm sick of having to listen as my kids come home and talk about his other woman.  I want cracks in that relationship, I want it to fail, I want him to hurt and realize we were worth something after all.  I don't think he ever will.  I want him to realize we had worth because right now, I don't see it myself.  If he could see it again, maybe I could see my own worth again too. 

[Nas]

I want him to realize we had worth because right now, I don't see it myself.  If he could see it again, maybe I could see my own worth again too.

I'm sorry, MOS, it's so hard. I know you're just venting, and I can totally see where the above statement might feel true sometimes, or a lot of the time right now, but it's actually quite the opposite.  Your worth is not dependent on him, and you're actually kicking ass on your own right now. (He's not, he needed an OW because he's too weak to be on his own - sorry, that's snide, but also true.)  As you work through things and begin to see your own worth again, it won't matter if he sees it. 
Hang in there...

[MomOfSteel]

Nas, thank you.  I know intellectually I have worth, emotionally that’s a much harder sell most days.  My therapist had me do an exercise where I listed all the ways I had worth.  As I listed things, every way I listed was in relation to what I provided someone else, what I could do for other people.  I still am really struggling with seeing my inherent worth as a human being.  I guess even before all of this MLC nonsense it is something I have always struggled with.  I’ve always found my own worth through others valuing (or not valuing me).  I recognize the problem but I’m not sure how to solve that problem. 

We still don’t have a signed MSA although hopefully that is not too far off.  I’m struggling with my teenager not really taking any pride in himself.  He doesn’t care about his grades, his behavior, pretty much anything.  I’m really worried his apathy will have long term consequences for him.  He also seems to blame his dads extensive education for the situation we are in so he doesn’t want to even go to college.  I worry he will limit himself if he can’t try a little. 

[Treasur]

A couple of ideas in case they are useful.....?

On self-value.
First of all, you are not alone in that feeling. Some of it seems to me to be normal. We humans are hard-wired for connection in little tribes where our existence and role we play is seen and heard by others. Most of us perceive ourselves to some extent through the eyes of others and would find living alone on an island hard, right? Some of us, and a lot of women are socially conditioned this way I think, have grown up with messages about being ‘good girls’ who do things for others.
On top of that, life just gave you a big message that someone close to you for decades, a relationship you invested in, does not value you or any of the things you have done, created or feel very much at all. That’s a big old punch in the gut that takes a fair bit of time to unpick imho.
So, please be fair to yourself about these feelings.....

On a practical note, two thoughts. One is to focus your eye more on all the many ways other humans show they value you. Look for evidence of that, enjoy that, do more things that let you feel that. The name of the game is therefore more about unpicking your sense of value from one human, your Stbxh, and seeing how it exists with others. More about breaking the mental link that his valuation matters as much as it once did, if that makes sense. Bit by bit.

The other idea - bc in a way this is like training your brain  - is to find something to do that is by nature more about how you value it, something you do which might not even be very visible to others, where their valuation doesn’t matter but yours does.....learning a new language, making a garden, running a mile, taking up yoga, sewing a quilt. Something that doesn’t need others and that pleases you, whatever it is that floats your boat. And journaling can help, a little ‘here’s what I am pleased about with myself today’ book  .....sometimes we just have to teach our brain to notice things consciously for a little while.

[forthetrees]

Re: value. Sometimes it helps to look at it through a different lens. Does an infant have value even though it cannot do for others? Does an infirm person? An elderly person? If you think that these people have value just by the inherent value of being living humans, then of course you do as well. Society puts a lot of value on doing vs. being. What if you wrote the list as only things that you are and not what you do? There is only one of you and there will never be another, your uniqueness alone has great value.

I have had great success with positive affirmations that I repeat to myself in my head while falling asleep. I time the affirmation to my breathing to have slow deep breaths. This alone puts you into the parasympathetic pathway and the positive thoughts block the negative thoughts from entering. The affirmation that helped me get out of the depths was "I am good, I am kind, I am important." (All of those are being not doing sentences:)) Basically you need to be your own cheerleader for a while.

[MomOfSteel]

Treasure, FTT, and Nas, you are all right of course.  I am venting my frustration as I feel like this is one of the only places I can be understood and people understand that even after a year the damage remains, the triggers remain and the damage was so immense it isn't just a get over it type of thing.  I do need to focus more on my own worth.  I think sometimes that if I could completely remove stbxh from my life completely that would be a little easier.  I mean, he is still devaluing me and causing damage. 

Some journaling,

The last couple weeks were a little rough here.  My mom had her cancer surgery which luckily went well and her margins were clean and lymph nodes were clear.  I was worried though and am having a hard time not being able to go help her.  I feel like as they age it is really hard to not be close geographically to them. 

The stbxh and the OW took the kids for a long weekend on a little trip.  I was looking forward to relaxing and getting some cleaning and other things done.  Mostly though I was a crying wreck the whole time.  I guess I just needed my kids to be gone so I could fall apart.  I tried to just do what it felt like my body needed and didn't really get much done.  It was fine until I got a phone call wanting me to punish my son, who wasn't with me when he got home for being disrespectful and not doing as he was told.  Well, it would be one thing if I agreed with the punishment as reasonable, it was another because I didn't.  It was way to harsh for a tired, cranky small boy who has a lot of hurt and anger from what has gone on.  I tried to set a boundary and well, I'm sure you can all imagine how well that worked out.  I was called back and told how I am a leech and that's all I will ever be, that I wouldn't have had a career even if I hadn't quit my training because the real me was just lazy and my only goal in life was to live off of him.  I will also never be backed up in my own parenting decisions and was told I was meddling when I tried to talk to my son to figure out how he was doing.  I was meddling even though stbxh was the one that involved me in the first place.  It is morally wrong to talk to my kids apparently.... and on and on and on.  I waited for him to calm down for a couple hours and told him he would have to find a way to enforce his punishment, that while I want to have a good coparenting relationship, I can not be expected to exact a punishment that he didn't consult with me on beforehand.  During this time, my kid screamed at his dad that he was a horrible person who cheated on his mom with some B&($%.  My other kid said that when this kid walked away the comment was made by the other woman that it would be hard to be 10 and not know the truth.  For some reason this really bugs me.  It's been bugging me since my kid told me.  Sometimes I wish my kids didn't tell me this stuff but I want them to know they can talk to me about anything.  I guess it just makes me wonder what stbxh has told her about me, how she justifies what she has played a part in.  Its also triggering because it feels gaslighty to me even though it wasn't said to me.  I'm so tired of people telling my my truth is unreasonable or wrong.  I also feel like even though I know my a-hole husband is in the midst of the tunnel, he likely has lied to himself so much that he will always believe those lies.  It hurts and it makes me wonder some day what he will tell our kids, what monster he will make me out to be.  I hate the OW, she has no idea what the truth of our marriage was.  She was not there.  Maybe my perception was much different than my husband's but she wasn't there.  He is of course the victim in all of this.  Oh, and also because he said he didn't physically touch her before separation he didn't cheat.  Who knows if he did or didn't but emotional affairs are still affairs in my book.  This just makes me so tired.  I spent most of yesterday bawling because of how I am viewed.  Disapproval feels so hard to brush off, likely because of my own anxious attachments and childhood issues.  I am so sick of his rejection bothering me to the extent that it does. 

I'm going to start EMDR in a couple weeks and am hoping that it helps add another layer of relief to the normal talk therapy and meds that I am on.  I long to feel healthy and happy and like I am back to myself and not always wading through the muck and mud to get anywhere.

[forthetrees]

When those hurtful comments start bouncing around in your mind, try repeating the phrase, "Consider the source." until you have convinced yourself that ow and stbx´s comments are not worthy of holding weight against you.

[Treasur]

I am so sick of his rejection bothering me to the extent that it does. 

I'm going to start EMDR in a couple weeks and am hoping that it helps add another layer of relief to the normal talk therapy and meds that I am on.  I long to feel healthy and happy and like I am back to myself and not always wading through the muck and mud to get anywhere.

It might not feel like it but imho that longing is actually a very positive thing. It is what creates our own shifts in mindset and behaviour.....a deep kind of ‘no more’ feeling that can give us the courage we need to explore an unknown what next. I recall being absolutely terrified on my way to my first EMDR session, to the point of throwing up at the side of the road.....but I also knew that I could not and did not want to stay where i was at that time either. I was sort of desperate in a useful way if that makes sense lol. I would have tried standing on my head and whistling show tunes if someone had said it would get me unstuck from where I was 

I’m not a parent, so my advice comes with a million caveats but I hope others will swing by with their experience, MoS. I think you might have to put down the idea of ‘co-parentng’ and replace it with ‘parallel parenting’. At least for a while. And it might be worth you musing on how you see the difference between those things practically speaking. Why? Bc it’s pretty difficult to co-anything with people who behave like entitled angry f**kwits. Bc it isn’t necessary or healthy to expose oneself to abuse in order to co-anything. So, as an example, at thebpoint in the phone call when your h got to calling you a leech (which has nothing at all to do with the matter at hand of course), you end the call. You simply refuse to talk if he is going to be abusive, insulting or anything but calm and factual. You don’t ask, you just say no and put the phone down. He is entitled to his opinion but you are not obliged to listen to it. And he is an adult who is perfectly capable of controlling his behaviour. Or not. But that’s his responsibility, not yours. If he wants to communicate with you directly about your kids - and ONLY about your kids - then he needs to do so calmly and civilly. Imho part of healing, a really important part, is teaching ourselves to say No to things that harm us. And it’s ok to do that....don’t let his manipulation or yourbown fear tell you otherwise. There are plenty of people who manage the logistics of parallel parenting without much direct communication....there are even apps designed for it!

But it often requires getting a bit tough and honest with oneself about why you are doing what you are currently doing. It is not uncommon for we LBS for a while to keep communication doors open in the hope of something. And parallel parenting works both ways too, of course, so you are forced to accept that (unless they are at demonstrable risk) what happens when your kids are with him (and ow) is not in your control and not your job to be involved in. Well, other than saying some version of ‘cool, bummer, wow’ when they get home. So, if they get punished for something you woukdn’t Punish them for or get to eat ice cream for breakfast, not your business....you are only in charge of what happens in your home and on your watch. And I imagine that in itself would be quite hard to swallow as a parent. But imho we suffer most when we are fighting a reality we can’t control.....your h, for whatever reason, is behaving like an abusive a$$hat towards you under the guise of co-parenting as permission to do so. So, one way to take your ball away is to stop trying to do co-parenting. I’m not sure what stage you are at in any legal process with regard to custody/visitation terms etc, but you might find it useful to talk to your own lawyer about how to set things up in a way that looks more like parallel parenting and minimises direct contact. Be honest with them about your h’s verbal abuse....I can guarantee you that it will not be the first time your lawyer has seen this.

I found EMDR life-changing. It took a little while, it wasn’t an overnight fix more like a washing machine churn, but I still remember the feeling of my head breaking water if that makes sense. I hope that it gives you the same. And if/when it does, you will find that a whole bunch of things become different and easier to manage..

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Let's look at this statement first.

It was fine until I got a phone call wanting me to punish my son, who wasn't with me when he got home for being disrespectful and not doing as he was told.

No, you can't be held accountable for your child's actions when he is with his father. He fired you and decided someone else could do the job better, In fact, he has told you on several occasions that thing one is better than you as a parent. If they are so good, why are they even bothering you.

I was called back and told how I am a leech and that's all I will ever be, that I wouldn't have had a career even if I hadn't quit my training because the real me was just lazy and my only goal in life was to live off of him.

He's opinions and thoughts about you are no longer acceptable. The moment the phone call turns negative, simply state, "I am sorry that you feel that way, but I am not going to listen to it. Have a great day." Hang up. Don't listen, don't argue, and don't engage. His views of you are no longer valid. This is part of you reclaiming your power and your esteem. What you need to validate is that he can't handle the kids on a getaway for the weekend? And he has her as support and you are on your own. Yes, I am repeating what Treasur wrote, but it's worth repeating.

Co-parenting  or and I really like parallel parenting (shout out to Treasur, again.) requires the discussion to be a focus on supporting the children not using you as his emotional punching bag.

Keep believing in your value and worth and disregard him because he doesn't understand the word commitment and what it entails.

Best to you and your children,

(((Ready)))

[MomOfSteel]

For the trees, Treasur, and ready, thank you for your responses.  Considering the source is needed.  For whatever reason he hates me now and he isn’t the type of person I should care if I please or not.  He is undeserving of my kindness or love or anything else. 

Parallel parenting is probably a better goal at this point.  I’m so sick of being ripped apart.  He seems to come unhinged really easily these days.  Anger towards me is never far from the surface.  Considering he’s getting what he wants, I don’t think he should get to be angry. 

In the last few weeks, he has decided to completely turn his back on his family and officially cut them out of his life as well.  Apparently their disapproval and continued support for me are unacceptable to him.  I really don’t understand this compulsion to essentially isolate from everyone but his OW.  It’s going to be lonely at some point. 

In the last month, I signed the divorce papers.  Even though I don’t even like him at this point, I am still so incredibly sad.  Those feelings of not being enough and mourning the life I thought I would have are hard.  Hopefully with the final nail in the coffin the grief can end at some point. 

[MadLuv]

MOS- the kids and co-parenting when you can’t have a reasonable discussion has to be unbelievably difficult. Sounds like your stbxh is still not being accountable for the fallout of his decisions.  Unfortunately the divorce does nothing to speed up the healing ( IMHO) Time and facing your own pain and frustrations is still the only thing that heals. Having adult kids and going through all this is very difficult, but having kids that you absolutely must coparent with has to be so much harder. My only advise would be to tell him when he wants to talk calmly you will do your best to co-parent with him but you won’t tolerate being disrespected.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Considering he’s getting what he wants, I don’t think he should get to be angry.

Correction, he is getting what he "thinks" he wants and is still not happy. Then he gets angry. He is empty and trying to find the one thing that will get him back on track.  Nothing is working. Also, for some strange and bizarre reason, you and the kids aren't getting along with the program that his happiness comes above all else.

Sounds like your stbxh is still not being accountable for the fallout of his decisions.

No ,he is not. accountability and MLC are like oil and water, they just don't mix. So, instead of trying to "work" with him, you take care of the kids when you have them and he takes care of the kids when he has them. No calls about behavior or how you can work together. Only deal with time, events, and logistics around the children. That's it. No more verbal abuse from him at all. He is using you as an emotional outlet and that is not fair or helpful to you at all. He wants to vent, let OW get an earful instead.

he has decided to completely turn his back on his family and officially cut them out of his life as well.  Apparently their disapproval and continued support for me are unacceptable to him.

Another choice and another set of consequences that he made. You can't take or assume any responsibility for his choices. Part of your feelings and sadness is that you are still trying to fix things as if his crisis has something to do with you. All of this is within him and you, your marriage, and your children are collateral damage. True detachment is the acceptance of this and don't feel bad, it took me a long time to realize this and accept it myself.

Those feelings of not being enough and mourning the life I thought I would have are hard.

Mourn the loss of the life you had, but stop the feelings of not being enough. be good to yourself and build your new life with your kids. Be strong and forged from steel. You can do this.

(((Ready)))

[Dragonfly33]

Mourn the loss of the life you had, but stop the feelings of not being enough. be good to yourself and build your new life with your kids. Be strong and forged from steel. You can do this.

This is touché, however, I am struggling a lot in convincing myself that this has nothing to do with whether I am enough or not. Up to this day, I still question myself what was missing in me or if I did something wrong in the way I behaved during our marriage to cause him to cheat and check out from our marriage.  I think this is the hardest part in moving on.

[UrsaMajor]

Mourn the loss of the life you had, but stop the feelings of not being enough. be good to yourself and build your new life with your kids. Be strong and forged from steel. You can do this.

This is touché, however, I am struggling a lot in convincing myself that this has nothing to do with whether I am enough or not. Up to this day, I still question myself what was missing in me or if I did something wrong in the way I behaved during our marriage to cause him to cheat and check out from our marriage.  I think this is the hardest part in moving on.

Dragonfly, did you hold a gun to his head and tell him that he HAD to go do the mattress mambo with OW? Probably not. Did you know he hated liver and onions but still cooked liver and onions EVERY SINGLE DAY for the entire time you were married? Again, probably not. Did you put itching powder in his running undies? Did you wash his tighty-whities with your new red bathrobe so everything was pink in the end and then force him to wear the stuff to the gym anyway?

xH would have gone off the rails regardless of who he was married to, whether it was you, OW, Claudia Schiffer, or anyone else in the world.

His crisis (and this is the same for MoS as well) is 100% HIS responsibility. He CHOSE to cheat. He CHOSE to check out of the marriage. He CHOSE to hook up with the AD....

NONE of this has diddly-squat to do with you. You could have turned yourself into a pretzel-shaped door mat for him and he would STILL have made the same choices at some point... Why? Because they are empty inside and they desperately search for anyone and anything to fill that void (because they have never learned how to do it themselves). For a while, we (the LBS) were able to keep that bucket filled but as the bucket grew older, more and more leaks started rusting into it and more and more holes started appearing. It is NOT humanly possible for a human to fulfill all the needs of another. It is simply neither possible nor is it healthy because that means that you then neglect your own needs. We each have to assume responsibility for our own happiness and that is something that the mid-lifer is incapable of doing (goes back to that accountability thing Ready talked about except he put it nicely in terms of oil and water. I see it more like Holy Water and Satan) - they NEED to be the victim, the poor put-upon abused whatever they are in order to put the blame on someone else - their spouse, their family, their job, the dog, the house, the car, the place they live, whatever... ANYTHING to keep from looking in the mirror and accepting that the person looking back at them is responsible for their choices, their actions, their lives and their happiness, no one else....

[MadLuv]

I so agree. That was the hardest thing for me to get through my mind boggled head. Although I wasn’t perfect, either was he. Adults communicate and even if I made mistakes or annoyed him or whatever…..he did not say that!!!!  The are emotionally immature humans and that have to grow up the hard way or never. Still on them

[MomOfSteel]

Wow, I can't believe it's already been a month since I journaled (complained) about my life.  I hope some day I won't require the reminder that this wasn't my fault (thank you Ursa, and Ready) The co-parenting/parallel parenting is truly miserable.  He will likely never accept accountability for his actions and I really do need to find a way to just accept that somehow I will always be blamed and move on and not let it bother me any more.  Alas, I am a painfully slow learner apparently. 

I had to drop my kids off at his place earlier.  As I was dropping them off, he and his ow were pulling into the driveway from work.  (which apparently is my fault because I was there right on time). It's the first time I've actually seen her in person.  She's pretty and skinny.  It really triggered me and set me off in a major way seeing them together, knowing my kids will be left alone with her while he works this weekend, seeing him with what he wants.  Sigh.  I drove off as quickly as I could after my kids hopped out of the car.  He called me a minute later to tell me I forgot my son's sports equipment.  I told him I would just drop it off at his practice location and meet my son there in the morning as I didn't want to come back to the house because I didn't want to see his ow.  He then proceeded to tell me how I should just get over it as it's been a year and a half.  He condescendingly explained to me it's called shared parenting and I should share the responsibility of driving the kids.  Having just been majorly triggered, I told him I was sick of him trying to shove her down everyone's throats and expecting everyone to just accept her into their lives.  I tried to explain how traumatic dropping the kids off feels for me which of course he doesn't care and doesn't think is valid (I'm stupid for trying to reason with him).  I reminded him that I take the kids everywhere all the time.  As you can imagine the conversation just devolved further.  He told me it sounds like I have personal issues I need to work out because I am still traumatized by what he did.  At that point I just hung up.  He then sent some snarky text, there is so much gaslighting and taking what I say out of context and twisting to avoid even the simple acknowledgement of the pain he's caused.  If I try to call him on it, it just reinforces to him that I'm crazy.  I want to feel seen and heard and understood.  I would have better success with a pile of rocks than him.  I'm so frustrated with myself for not holding it in, for reacting and saying how I feel.  It never mattered to him before, I was always told how I was wrong or why my feeling were wrong.  Why I would ever expect a different result I don't know. 

I still feel like I am flapping in the breeze and don't know what the point of my life is.  My identity was ripped away when our family fell apart because it was so enmeshed in him, his career, him, him, him.  Even after all these months, I still don't feel much of a direction to head.  It feels hollow and pointless most days and I'm lost as to how I figure out a new passion for my life.  There are so many options, but nothing feels right to me.  I feel like a hamster on a wheel running and getting no where.  Maybe I'm putting too much pressure on myself, but I want something that feeds me and gives me a purpose other than my kids.  Returning to my degree field doesn't feel right as it would mean working full-time and with four small kids, I just don't think I could even manage it.  I need more flexibility.  I simply don't know what to do.  I've looked into multiple different options but feel stuck in limbo.  I guess I now know how high schoolers feel who don't know what they want to be when they grow up.  As someone who has always felt like they had a directions, it feels really unsettling to me. 

My kids have had a break from school and since we were fresh off of recovering from COVID followed by some other respiratory illness, we just stayed home instead of traveling.  Our week has been filled with crafts and gardening (well, weeding to try to get a garden in shortly) time with friends and just silly things around our house.  Not everyone wants to participate which frustrates me sometimes but I guess that is just kids getting older.  One night after dinner when we would usually be getting ready for bed on a school night we walked to a nearby park.  It was one of those times where you just look at your kids and there is a snapshot of a perfect moment in time.  They were happily interacting with one another, smiling, and looking back and running up the grassy hill to the playground.  It was just the pure joy of childhood in that moment.  Sometimes those moments feel like they are few and far between, the kids are fighting, we are too busy to make time for those simple things, or I am just too busy to really take the time to see what is going on right in front of my face.  It's moments like those I feel incredibly grateful but also sad for the loss of what was.  I feel pity both for my stbx and myself that we both now miss out on moments that would have been shared had this MLC not happened.  I wish I could have somehow frozen that moment, when they were just happy and having fun.  They are growing so quickly and I feel like I don't have that long with them.  The oldest will be graduating in 4 years.  He will then do, who knows what.  I worry about him and his future.  With this divorce, he has lost all sense of pride in himself, his work ethic, his future.  He no longer aspires to attend college and doesn't really have a plan past "being rich".  I see the pain, hurt and anger that is often seething beneath the surface for all of my kids.  While it often means they act out and make things really hard, I also just feel so bad that they have such a heavy load to try and carry that they don't know how to deal with. 

[Dragonfly33]

MoS sorry to hear you had to see that cOW. I cannot imagine how painful it is. Don't be too hard on yourself. I believe it is only normal to feel that way, to feel angry. I would feel the same way. Regarding being in Limbo, I guess it is also normal. Mind you I am four years on the road and yet I am still unsure about myself, still have uncertainties about what my purpose is. I also talked exactly about this to my therapist. It does takes a while until we get back on our feet. This is really a hard road and it's not just you who is going through this. If that helps. I cannot imagine how difficult your situation is having to take care of four kids alone and  having to work at the same time. I, myself, am having a hard time even though I am alone. I also feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I am still finding myself, my balance, and my new purpose in life. I guess this is part of the path we are forced to take. But this is not permanent. It will get better. Hang in there. Rant as much as you want here. Let it all out. You're doing great. Your xH is really a a-hole. sorry I have to say this. He tells you to get over it because he feels guilty. Seeing you feeling that way, confronts him with the horrible things he's done to you and your kids. Do not believe whatever he says, it is just to appease himself and to convince himself whatever he did was ok. Your feelings are real no matter what he says. These MLCers went to the same university of gaslighting and they seemed to have graduated with flying colors on gaslighting and projecting their guilt on their spouses. Hugs to you MoS.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

So sorry that your ex continues to manage to be a thorn in your side.

He then proceeded to tell me how I should just get over it as it's been a year and a half.  He condescendingly explained to me it's called shared parenting and I should share the responsibility of driving the kids.

Oh really, he still doesn't parent as he has OW take care of them for the weekend, while he does his thing. If I remember correctly, when the children are acting up, he calls you. That's not shared parenting, that's called shirking. I don't know the arrangement, but I don't think he has the children nearly as often as you do. Remember, in his world, he spends his time socializing with the children while you spend your time raising the children. He's the activities director as you get the role of task master. Sounds fair to you? That's shared parenting?

He also doesn't have any qualifications to tell you how you should feel. Remember, these words are coming from a person whose solution to an issue was to have an affair. I wonder if he tells people who have lost someone significant the same thing? "Hey Jim, it's been a year since you lost your mother. Get over it."

Once again, my advice is not to engage him in any conversations outside of logistics. When you told him that you would bring the bag back in the morning, that's it. No more discussion. If he wanted them that bad, he could come pick them up in your driveway. Those are the options. He is not your boss. You don't have to answer to him at all or explain, justify, or rationalize any decision you make as an adult.

She's pretty and skinny.

Don't compare yourself to her. It's not a competition. I don't know her circumstances but she got involved with a married man with a family. That doesn't bode well with me in the decision making capacity. How long do you think she is willing to play mom while he is gone? You think your own kids drive you crazy? How do you think they treat her? They will have their good moments and they will also have their terrible moments. After all, they are children. OW is a symptom, not a cure for your H. She is not part of the equation unless she does something to you or your children.

It feels hollow and pointless most days and I'm lost as to how I figure out a new passion for my life.  There are so many options, but nothing feels right to me.

This takes time and you are right that until you find your next passion or goal, things will feel hollow and pointless. I just ask you try some options.  Do something different. It is going to hurt and even years later, you are going to have some moments of pain. It is all part of the healing process. You want to focus on your kids as they will grow up fast and you want those positive memories. They will help ease the pain of your loss. Live for you and do something with a group of people just to get out and be part of something.

Have a great weekend and Happy Easter!

(((Ready)))

[JohnnyBravo]

Hi, MoS.

Can't offer anything more than Dragonfly and Ready have, but I still have those flapping around moments too. Fortunately work keeps me busy, and I have my hobby distractions, but still no big plan. I'm sure I'd feel the same way you do in the situation you're in.

Hugs.

[Reinventing]

Your feelings are real no matter what he says. These MLCers went to the same university of gaslighting and they seemed to have graduated with flying colors on gaslighting and projecting their guilt on their spouses.

I agree. Dragonfly, don't beat yourself up about anything that happened. You'll be able to dust yourself off and regain your footing faster and faster as time passes.

It helped me when others told me that I wouldn't always feel this way. And they were right.

[Treasur]

Imho you are entitled to feel what you feel - good, bad and in between.
Some of those feelings will be fleeting, some born of a specific event and some more sticky.
Again jmo but, with hindsight, the strong or sticky feelings are like recivery breadcrumbs through the forest....they are evidence of what you want and need or don’t.

So nothing wrong with how you feel.
Your ‘schoolgirl error’ (as we call a mistake here lol) was to share any of those feelings with him and expect that he would a) care or b) change his behaviour accordingly.

I told him I would just drop it off at his practice location and meet my son there in the morning

Everything after this ^^^^ was where you will do better in future. Bc we do.
We learn that we are dealing with people who, at best, are staggeringly self-centred. Or, at worst, might even get some kind of twisted kick out of seeing our distress bc it reinforces the story in their head that we are at fault and they are not responsible for the predictable fallout from their own choices.
On top of that tbh, we learn to ‘consider the source’ 
If a person who can seemingly comfortably upend their family’s life or treat the parent of their children with anything other than respect and courtesy has an opinion about what we should feel or what we should do, it’s not worth much imho. Their behaviour has already shown that we are not on the same page about these things....and tbh it’s a bit f**king presumptuous and entitled for anyone to think they should have the freedom to do what they want but the right to tell others how they should respond or feel about it

Part of the process of emotional detachment tbh is that one slowly starts to care less about their opinion about anything much. 
And you’ll get there, my friend, bc we do.
Feel what you feel. Say less to him about what you think or feel though. Walk away or shut down any conversation like this. He left....his opinion about you or your feelings is irrelevant now. Share your feelings and concerns in safe places with safe people who care about what you think. In time you will increasingly see him more and more like a man with a tinfoil hat ranting about aliens in cheese....the fact that he thinks it is so will not make it relevant to you or your kids 

[forthetrees]

Ah, your identity- you are a Mom of Steel who is currently surviving but in-training for thriving. Just because he ditched does not take away your Mom identity. The result of your "wife" identity being stripped away is the space to create and nurture the identity of you as just you- not a sister, daughter, mom. That is daunting and exhilarating at the same time. While in the floundering stage maybe consider browsing what Coursera has to offer or check out your local Meet-Up groups which are based on interests and are not dating forums. Give yourself to try something new and be a total newbie at it. Maybe be so bold as to signup for a workshop that takes place overnite on a time when he has the kids. That will help sprout new wings of confidence and confidence is what took a hit.

[OffRoad]

Guess what? You don't ever have to "get over it". Of course, dwelling on it is no good, but we learn from the past and if we don't remember the past, how will we learn? Lesson here is "I need to drop off the kids and dislike seeing OW. I don't owe anyone any explanation for why I do what I do. If I don't want to see OW and need to take care of something regarding the kids, I can come up with a solution and don't have to explain myself". 

You came up with the solution (yay you), but why you choose to do it that way is no one's business.

My niece is 38 years old. Her father was and is a jerk whose behavior caused her so many issues. Last time I saw him he got mad about something he thought my sister said and said "Isn't she over that already?" I said "She might be, but I'm not. You haven't learned anything and are just as big of a jerk now as you were then." He just looked at me. I don't dwell on what kind of jerk he is. I just don't forget he is one. That might be a helpful thought while you have to parent with a person who might be a jerk. Don't forget he is one.

Getting past all the garbage that comes with an MLC spouse is a marathon. They somehow HAVE to make you the bad guy, imo. Please don't buy the mind games he is selling. You don't EVER have to be more than surface polite if you are in the presence of OW and your kids together. You have every right to avoid that kind of situation if you want, too. You CAN get on board with "happy blended family" but you don't HAVE to. Do what works for you, and that can change over the years ahead.

[MomOfSteel]

Hi all, thank you for your thoughtful responses.  I am comforted in the fact I'm not the only one feeling in a weird limbo.  It's also a good reminder I don't owe him an explanation whether he expects one or not.  Really, I am just giving him the tools to hurt me further when I do and I think that is exactly what he is trying to do (or the OW, I'm not sure).  My therapist pointed out it's how I know its all about him.  He is the activity director and I'm the task master, that's spot on.  It's easy to be entertaining for two Saturdays a month.  It's a little harder to be fun when you are doing all the lifting yourself for everyone. 

I have another sporting event today with my kids and I don't know whether his cOW will be there with him.  I'm going to get myself dressed up, put on some bright red FU lipstick, sunglasses and pray I can make it through the game and ignore them as best as I can.  It seems to me like having her and insisting she comes is a power play on his part to try and get a reaction out of me.  Hopefully I can avoid that and take my power back. 

Over the last couple weeks I keep having this weird recurring dream about how I'm standing up with my shoulders back.  (Real exciting, I know).  It's a bit weird.  I noticed though looking in the mirror that my shoulders are no longer hunched forward on default like they have been for years.    I realize that my body is slowly recognizing it isn't under a constant threat from him and his abusive behaviors.  It was a bit strange to come to this realization and be able to notice that despite all he currently still does to try and maintain control, I am recovering and being victimized less and less. 

I'm a little frustrated with my therapist as I have been told we will start EMDR multiple times and never have.  I'm thinking maybe I keep my current therapist as my talk therapist and seek out a separate one for EMDR.  I feel like I am ready to hopefully become more functional still and am sick of waiting. 

[MomOfSteel]

I just don’t get it.  He tried to claim he can’t pay his half of the kids extracurricular activities be a se he can’t afford it.  They aren’t in very expensive things and each kid basically has one or two activities except the youngest who isn’t in anything yet.  This is a man who makes over seven figures.  He can’t pay a couple hundred a month???  I can’t decide if he’s trying to manipulate me or he really has got himself in that big of a hole spending.  I know he’s taken on housing, car loans and travels to play constantly but given the income, I still don’t understand how it can be too expensive. 

[zartheit]

I'm sorry. It must be incredibly frustrating to be stiff-armed over nothing, especially when it comes to your children.

My perspective is that people making less than that are able to cover these expenses for their children. People budget according to their priorities. If we take him at his word and he did get into a big hole due to his spending, that is a choice he made. This decision stems from an alignment of his own set of values, principles, and morals. At any point in time he is able to make another choice (e.g., sell a car, travel less, etc) and doesn't. It seems to me that is because he doesn't want to, at least, not enough to do something differently about it.

And that's heartbreaking.

[MomOfSteel]

zartheit, I agree, the kids are just not his priority.  It's sad to see.  I guess if he wants something to change he can take me back to court. Somehow I think a judge would not be too impressed with him.  How these MLCers can just be so selfish at the cost of even their kids is so sad.  When he communicates about the kids, somehow it is always about him and what he wants, it's never really about the kids.  The worst part is that the kids feel it.  They know they and their comfort isn't a priority to him.   

[MadLuv]

It is so hard to understand their rationale and priorities. My XH pays my alimony, but we have community obligations in memory of our daughter and he no longer contributes to the maintenance of them. The daughter who passed that caused his crisis. That he feels guilt over??? It makes no sense. So, it is crazy that your H makes plenty of money, but OW must be bleeding him dry. I know my XH’s is. The OW or OM is running the show.

I love the red lipstick and sunglasses and standing firm and strong!! YES!!!!!  That is the strength that will get you through and I love it!!!!

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Sorry you are going through this. I paid both child support and alimony for five years. She also got 1/3 of my 403b and 9.25 credit years of my pension. It stinks but that is the way things happen. I made all my payments and was on time for everything. I never balked at child support or anything my daughter needed. She didn't ask for the divorce; she was just part of it. So I never balked or complained about her support.

Your h made a choice and needs to live with the consequences of those choices. He can cut corners if he wants, he just chooses not to do it. They are his kids as well.

The OW or OM is running the show.

Just like many things in our world, I think OW and OM run a spectrum. So are very manipulative and controlling. They definitely run the show. Yet others are gaslighted and lied to just as much as the LBSer. Some feel that they are saving the MLCer from a terrible situation. It's all about how the alienator enables the MLCer to escape and avoid. Regardless of the alienator, they serve to meet the self centered needs of the MLCer.

Be strong and to the point. It's about your children and their lives and activities should not be disrupted because of his choices.

Have a great day,

(((Ready)))

[MadLuv]

Absolutely Ready. They use each other. Thats why the relationship should not be given value from the LBS. It is not based on anything of real substance!!

[MomOfSteel]

MadLuv and Ready, I certainly think their priorities really get messed up.  It leaves me wondering if he was always this bad or it is a new thing.  I feel like I keep having these episodes where I cry and am sad out of the middle of no where.  It's like my body is purging bits of grief at random times.  I really don't like my ex, I don't want him back, so why am I still grieving?  I guess it's the loss of what I thought my life would be like, the loss of time with my kids, the loss of help and a "normal" family life that didn't involve dealing with all these big emotions constantly.  I had a random thought that the tears are like purging the poison and toxins from my system.  I feel drained each time after but somehow better and lighter. 

We were at my kids ball game the other day.  Ex and OW were sitting on the opposite bleachers.  My son was pitching and ex wasn't even paying any attention because he and OW were all snuggled up looking for concert tickets.  (Once again, no money for the kids extracurriculars but he can spend endless amounts on front row tickets).  As soon as the inning was over (which was only 4 batters) my son angrily stalked back to the dugout and said, "Mom, Dad couldn't even watch me pitch, he was looking at his stupid phone the whole time and didn't even pay attention."  It makes me mad that even when the ex is there, he can't just be there with his kids.  Of course he couldn't hear being on the other side of the field, but several other parents did.  It makes me upset that he can't even be present. 

We had a showcase type event for two of our kids at school where they show projects, writing, and other work they have done over the past year at school.  Ex actually came which was good.  It struck me as sad though that he was almost like this outsider.  The kids and I were talking to parents and the teachers.  He didn't know anyone.  The pictures and writing my children did were pictures of the family, minus him.  My little's favorite things were lions and me.  My older's hero was me and in the essay it said I would always be there and help make it possible to do the things she was interested in even when her dad refuses.  (He didn't see that as I saw it first and made sure he didn't).  It was odd watching him.  He seemed on the verge of tears.  I feel pity for him, for the choices he has made, for the fact his children see what he's doing.

[MadLuv]

MOS- I just had this convo i. My therapy( which I now only go to once a month) I said, I don’t like who he is. I am fine by myself, but I find I have moments where tears will flow and I don’t totally get it as he is not someone who would turn my head in personality or physically. I said, I think like you said it is more just the loss of having my life play out as I wanted.

To make so many sacrifices to just have it end with no real explanation. It’s not like we are playing barbies here and you can pull barbie out and replace her with midge for Ken and all is good. The way they leave also leaves us with so many things to question which makes the future with someone else harder to view.

The kids…ugh. First what they do to their own children is unfathomable. Also, the new OW/OM being in full view right away causes so many issues that it makes it even harder for us to even consider a relationship with someone new as the kids haven’t  come to terms with the parent that has put their life in an upheaval. I do think it is painful to them. They do see the destruction and damage, but they are to weak to handle it and to be accountable. They are emotionally immature.

[MomOfSteel]

MadLuv, I don't like who my husband (well, I really should get used to saying exH) is now either.  It makes me question if he was always like this to some degree or it is a new thing.  It really has ruined my whole view of our marriage.  Two of our children had promotion events at their schools in the last couple days.  He missed all three events for our children but made it to the one for the Ow's daughter.  While dropping our daughter off he commented that he thought the promotion events were dumb and not worth taking off work for.  How he can view it that way and not realize that when every other kid has their parents there, it isn't about the event, it's about showing up for your kid, letting them know you support them and are proud of them.  He could tell by the look on my face I wasn't impressed with him and he basically questioned my disagreement.  My kids notice.  It makes me so sad. 

At the one promotion event today, I was alone.  I was sitting there in this sea of families by myself.  It was one of those moments you just can't stop the tears from flowing.  I'm in a state far from family, I've made some friends here but I was alone and was quietly trying to not embarrass myself by crying. It should have been happy, my exH should have been there.  It also marked the end of the last two years that have been a living Hell because of my exH.  Two years that this child struggled and got in trouble, his grades dropped, he lost his confidence and motivation.  It was just a horrible reminder in some ways that we may have survived but we are not yet thriving in this new life.  We all carry the scars of exH's actions in our hearts and minds on a daily basis.  Sometimes I wonder if I will ever be able to go even a day without thinking of exH at all.  I still think about him and what he did often.  I don't want to be stuck reliving this for the rest of my life.  How do we heal enough to just move on and not care and not think. 

This load is heavy.  It hurts.  I'm so tired of hurting.  I wish he would leave us alone completely.  His continued presence hurts because he is here, he feels like home and yet he isn't my home anymore.  He chose to burn that to the ground. 

[forthetrees]

Sending you a cyber hug and shoulder. The contrast of being in the audience as a supporter of one instead of two would be hard to handle. Treat yourself to a hot bubble bath, some good tunes- maybe honor Tina Turner with a sing along of What´s Love Got to Do With it? But avoid numbing the pain with alcohol or sweets. Tomorrow can you treat yourself to a cup of coffee outside in the sunshine and then a walk with a good friend or your kids in a park? It does get better though I cannot promise you won´t have this cross your mind every day from here on out- it´s just too monumental to fade into oblivion.

[xyzcf]

Hi MOS,

I just looked back and saw that your BD was Sept 2021..less then two years.

Unfortunately the hurt can last a long time. Not for everyone but it sure did for me.

A great therapist helped me deal with what really is trauma because our whole world has been blown up...and quite honestly, I think infidelity is a deep deep wound that is hard to heal from...and so yes, I still think about my husband many years later. I liked my life, it was "easier" in many ways than now but over time, I accepted that he is not in my life..other than on the edges.

Sitting at the school event amidst families is terribly difficult. No wonder you felt like crying!

Sometimes it is better not to have to see them...but when you have children, that is not always possible.

The hurt they cause our children also makes things worse....trying to comfort the children when our hearts are broken is exhausting.

I wish there was an easy way to forget them, to get to a better place quicker. It happens, but it happens in small steps and when you look back a month ago, 6 months ago, a year ago...perhaps you will see that you are moving forward.

I had trouble "feeling "joy". I knew what "joy" was but I could not feel it. Again, the therapist I saw helped me to let go of the physical manifestations and emotional distress that his leaving caused me...and I feel joy and comfort now....it does take a great deal of time.

The biggest thing  for me was acceptance that the man I loved is no more. I cherish the memories I had of our life together and I have built a life that is good for me...I pray that you will find that sooner than later.

Take care.

[MadLuv]

MOS~ I am 2 1/2 years out from BD and everyday my XH comes into my thoughts in one way or another. I think for me the hardest thing has been accepting that he is the total opposite of who I knew, but once I did then my days have been mostly good. Yet, the damage is great. To us and our children. i feel cheated on having a marriage and family. I’m good alone, but feel still a little frozen in where to go in life. I can definitely feel with time it does keep getting better.

There is also a sadness in losing love for someone you have always intended to love forever. Almost scary, so we have so many things to reconcile with ourselves. We were dealt some pretty bad cards, but I do like to be that person that believes something better is coming. This can’t all be for nothing. So, keep the faith. Better tomorrows are ahead. I survived my mothers horrific MLC and your children will also. One very supportive parent really can be enough. I thank the lucky stars for the Dad I had. Your children will be ok, because they have you!

[Treasur]

First of all, lots of folks here will know what the feeling felt like. I suspect, particularly when you have kids, it’s probably a mixture of feelings tbh…sadness, anger, frustration, maybe even a bit of isolation? Some of those feelings are probably about you, some about xh, some about your kids.

Do you know why steel is so strong? And why your MoS name is such a good one? Bc it’s an alloy, combined with other metals to make a kind of lattice structure if you looked at it under a microscope. These experiences are both awful AND part of the mix that forms our metal. Imho, rebuilding after big loss is a series of ‘second firsts’ (although it tends to last a bit longer than we might wish lol). Each one is a bridge crossed that ensures that the third or fourth of fifth ‘first’ does not feel quite the same. This time, it sounds as if there was the Presence of Absence….that big sense of what/who is not there. With time, it will become the Absence of Presence where you are more aware of what is there, even if it is different. I can’t tell you that those moments of remembered loss will never reappear….but I can promise you in future times you will feel much more pride and joy in how you and your kids survived to build something worth celebrating regardless of what your xh is or does. And you and your kids SHOULD feel proud….despite all that the universe has thrown at you, you were there, your kids were there….it was a real moment of triumph actually. And there will be others. The fact that xh is a chocolate teapot of a parent will become background noise more and more to those triumphs. For all of you, in different ways, he (and ow) will become bit players to the main show who occasionally pop up, wave a cheap prop around and leave while the rest of you get on with the main story.

You are forging your steel right now, MoS. And you are doing just fine x

[MomOfSteel]

FTT, xyz, ML, and Treasur, thank you for your responses.  I have tried to treat myself gently today.  I went to a last baseball game last night for one kid and got to sit there and watch OW and H all cuddled up.  I was sitting by myself and again felt alone.  They then took the kids for my Hs parenting time.  Really, it is visitation because he has made it so he can avoid any real responsibility in the parenting department.  He said that my daughter wanted to stay with them after they came home from summer vacation and wanted to know if we could work that out.  I asked about his need to work and his reply was that the OW had a few days off.    When I asked my daughter if that's what she wanted she said she just wanted to know if they were coming home or staying at her dad's house, not that she wanted additional time there.  I know she misses her dad, I am not sure if she's trying to save my feelings or she really wasn't asking to stay there.  I came home and sobbed for a while until it was worked out of my system, ordered some take out and watched a show then went to bed and slept in.  I've been trying to clean and purge as it feels therapeutic today.  I think Treasur nailed it that it was sadness, anger, frustration, and isolation.  I think there were probably a few other feelings stewing around too.  Emotionally I was overwhelmed. 

Treasur, thank you for your reminder about steel.  I've been thinking about it all day.  There is a video that I remember seeing in the last year sometime about a woman who basically lost her whole immediate family to rare forms of cancer.  Every single one of them.  It was interspersed with video and sounds of metal being worked on an anvil and heated in the refiners fire.  Each time that hammer hit the anvil and metal, it seemed personal.  I related to it as it felt like each of the hits I, and by extension everyone on this board, have endured.  Our impurities are burned away from the fire and it allows us to be shaped into something beautiful, something strong, something useful.  I try to remember this, but like most things, it seems it is easy to forget. 

The presence of absence did seem to hit me harder this time.  It's hit in smaller ways before, but it really did seem worse for whatever reason.  I have finally started EMDR which seems to be helping so far but leaves me incredibly drained afterwards.  Life is just exhausting and I want to feel true joy again. 

[Treasur]

EMDR was a game changer for me, MoS, and I hope it proves to be the same for you. Having said that, I remember that it left me exhausted afterwards for the first few sessions and was a pretty odd feeling all round. Like a washing machine going on independently at the back of my head…but I also remember the feeling when I noticed that something had shifted and that was such a relief. Keep going, dear girl - it will all get better, I promise.

In the meantime - bc imho healing is harder if we are still exposed to too many new knife cuts - and I’m presuming things like going to see your kids play sports is important to you - are there some small hacks you could try out? Ask a friend to go with you, sit somewhere else, offer to help in some way so your team ‘role’  than just sitting solo, introduce yourself to some other parents so you can make new friends, huge sunglasses….something small? Ditto with whatever kind of logistics comms you have with him….text over voice, for instance so you don’t hear his voice or get pulled into conversations, more formal communication about kid logistics or more fixed scheduling so you don’t have to interact so much, any way to do the drop offs differently? It’s ok to get a bit creative and to put your own needs higher up the scale.

I know it’s maybe a silly reminder, but perhaps all mums need it sometimes….just bc your xh wants something, even just bc your kids do, does not mean you have to say yes or do back flips to make it happen. You are allowed to say No, not then or not like this. And if your xh doesn’t like it? Pah, tough luck he’s having, what’s he going to do, leave you again lol? And imho it is healthy for kids to also learn that the world is not just about their wants, right? I encourage you to experiment with what works for you…but doing that means teaching yourself to put your own needs into the mix as well as others and sometimes Mum’s can get out of that habit, can’t they?

[MomOfSteel]

Treasur you alway have the perfect words somehow and really have a knack for seeing the meat of the problem.  It feels like it's been a long time since updating and part of me just feels exhausted by thinking about everything.  I survived the sports season and both a trip with my kids and them being on a trip with their dad and the ow as well as a trip during that time for myself.  For the first time in a long time I find myself waking up with the familiar dread of anxiety in my stomach and throat.  I had been doing pretty well for a while but it's back.  H got mad at me for my continued relationship with his family, but he wants to use the kids to force them to do what he wants.  I feel torn and like the codependence has surfaced making me feel like it is somehow my responsibility to smooth things over.  I understand his feelings and why he would feel the way he does but in reality he is not willing to have conversations with them and try to repair things, he simply wants to force them to behave how he wants.  There has been a heavy dose of telling my children I have stolen his family and guilting me about it.  These are people I love and were my family for two decades.  I don't really know how to walk this line or I just full on ignore his little tantrum.  The problem comes when he starts guilting my children and they in turn start questioning my relationship with their grandparents and aunts and uncles. 

My kids came home from this trip with varying levels of crap to deal with.  The oldest and youngest faired well while the middle two were really upset.  The older was told that sometimes he was really hard to love and that he would have been left home except I needed a break from him.  How someone can be so cruel to a child I don't understand.  This child will also just say what is on his mind which the MLCer really doesn't like because it disrupts the fantasy of him still being a good dad and checking off the dad box on his list.  The other was basically told that when they felt like their prayers were answered it was just coincidence when she tried to share how she felt to her dad trying to destroy her fledgling faith.  She came home crying.  He has turned his back on his faith tradition and community and now is actively trying to pull our children away from the religious traditions he was key in instilling into them.  It feels so unfair.  I'm trying to not put my kids in a position where they feel like they have to chose between us by reemphasizing my own views.  I simply asked my daughter how she felt deep down and told her we all have to follow our hearts and she needs to trust herself above all else to come to the right conclusion.  It is scary handing over the reigns to a child so young though knowing I need to try to keep things neutral and not really push or add to the sense they need to chose the way I do things or their dad does things. 

I had a conversation with someone from our community that my ex had helped in a pretty major way and it has been really sitting with me wrong.  I think I probably just need to get over my own ego about the whole thing but sometimes that is easier said than done.  This person approached the ex for help after knowing what he has done and to his credit, the ex helped and was gracious and took good care of this person in a professional capacity which he will be well paid for.  This person now thanks me all the time for ex's help and tells me how wonderful ex is.  He told me last night exH was a good person despite the choice he made to leave me.  It really does sting and I feel like it's a bit like being betrayed.  I think after all the things with the kids, him twisting things and everything else, it has felt like a series of continued mini betrayals.  Also apparently he is close to proposing to the OW which also just makes me sick.  So many of the things I practically begged for in our marriage no longer seem to be an issue for him to do for her but he would never make the effort for me and it hurts so bad.  It's been a couple of years since his relationship with this person started and I keep wondering when that limerence will wear off or maybe it has and he really is that much happier with this other person and our destroyed family. 

[KayDee]

A friend on mine, his father was a real tyrant and bully to his kids. He died suddenly at 60. At his funeral, my friend and his brother were continually approached by this man's colleagues and students (he was a teacher) who said how wonderful their father was. This really shocked and rankled them. So nice in public, with his audience, such a nasty person in his private sphere.

It seems like you exH is washing up on your safe shores again. No wonder you feel anxious and upended. Not to mention exhausted, as you try to be the grown up and do what is best for your kids. Is there a way, even small moves you can make, to cut off some of this flow of information? I did wonder how you know that he is ready to propose? Is it better - do you feel better - when you don't know any of this? It's too tempting to imagine his life with OW as more rosy and romantic than it probably is. It is more likely insecure Grand Gesturing. Either way, do you really need to be party to it? Can you, instead, think of all the kind and lovely things other people do for you - your friends, your kids, your family? All those acts of love, which I imagine have been deeper during your current distress. There's more than one way to be loved and give it, of course. This much I have learned.

[Treasur]

I hear that Putin likes puppies……

I’m going to take a slightly different angle on the ‘thankful friend’.
Which is that you are entitled to feel how you feel….it’s a bit like being told by someone that your rapist is a great scout leader and helped someone jump start their car    I don’t want to hear that; it doesn’t help me and it makes me feel invalidated as if what happened to me somehow really doesn’t matter.

The sub text is a kind of gaslighting…..essentially saying that you should base your pov on his opinion not your own experience. Either bc you are too stupid to form your own opinion or bc he thinks he’s entitled to tell you what to think regardless of your own experience. (A lot of short rude words are jumping up and down in my mind about this ‘friend’ right now  )

It actually means that - and this is not unusual sadly with some people - that in your ‘friend’s’ mind the help he got is more important than anything you and your kids have suffered.  (A help that he got oaid for, right? I’m presuming he didn’t give the guy a kidney or save his children from a burning house risking his own life? )

So, he has the right to his opinion, but in my book, that’s not a friend. Tbh not even a pleasant acquaintance. He’s essentially saying my opinion is more important and you and your kids are not entitled to think or feel as you do. It’s like a weird kind of mansplaining on speed.  I’d encourage you to demote him to irritating tactless a$$hole to be avoided immediately  (and silently use much ruder words in your head than that!)

Plus it’s irrelevant to you - why is he thanking YOU for something your xh did? What’s it got to do with you?  I would humbly suggest that, if he does it again, you hold your hand up in a big stop sign and say something like ‘I’m glad you are happy with the help you got from him, but it really is nothing to do with me. And tbh, given some of the distress he has caused for me and my children, we’re not going to see him in the same way as you do, so probably best to not talk about him at all.’ Then walk away.

That’s how a Mom of Steel does a boundary right there 
If you think this behaviour is ok, you are not on the MoS and MoS kid’s team….and if you’re not on our team, we’ll walk past you and play with other folks who are.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

A lot to dissect here,

Let's start with family,

H got mad at me for my continued relationship with his family, but he wants to use the kids to force them to do what he wants.  I feel torn and like the codependence has surfaced making me feel like it is somehow my responsibility to smooth things over.  I understand his feelings and why he would feel the way he does but in reality he is not willing to have conversations with them and try to repair things, he simply wants to force them to behave how he wants.  There has been a heavy dose of telling my children I have stolen his family and guilting me about it.  These are people I love and were my family for two decades.  I don't really know how to walk this line or I just full on ignore his little tantrum.  The problem comes when he starts guilting my children and they in turn start questioning my relationship with their grandparents and aunts and uncles.

This is none of his business. You get to keep and choose your friends and relationships. In your settlement, it will state that neither parent is to try to communicate through the kids or putdown the other parent in front of them. You can refer him to the settlement and also remind him that he is free to text you. There are apps for co-parenting and they save the text messages for the court in case anyone gets ugly. You don't need to worry about his happiness anymore. He fired you. I believe that a large part of your exhaustion is his comments to you and how he manipulates you to be responsible for the children even when he has them. He is using you,

When he has them, he is responsible for them. He has problems and abuses them, you let him know through the parent app. If it becomes too bad, take him to court and ask for full custody of one, two, or all the kids. Now for your part, don't let your kids bring you into the drama over his statements. "If they say, dad says you stole his family." you can respond, "I'm sorry he feels that way and unless your dad is here, let's not discuss what he says." You don't need to get involved with the kids and their drama with him unless it rises to the level of abuse.

This will limit your contact with him to only issues involving the children and use a parent app for that for all messages. That is the limit to your communication with him. It will relieve a lot of your stress and exhaustion.

As to the friend,

Plus it’s irrelevant to you - why is he thanking YOU for something your xh did? What’s it got to do with you?  I would humbly suggest that, if he does it again, you hold your hand up in a big stop sign and say something like ‘I’m glad you are happy with the help you got from him, but it really is nothing to do with me. And tbh, given some of the distress he has caused for me and my children, we’re not going to see him in the same way as you do, so probably best to not talk about him at all.’ Then walk away.

Perfect response. Your h can be the greatest person in town, but he also cheated on his wife and deserted his family. Can't change that action either. I do agree that no one needs to talk to you about your ex, good or bad. It just sucks you back into the vortex you need to avoid. This isn't to punish anyone, but to allow you to heal.

Keep taking care of your children and yourself. Work on your problems and your life issues- not his. That's ow's job now.

Have a great evening,

(((Ready)))

[MomOfSteel]

Wow, I guess it's time for an update.  I have been MIA the past few months and really focusing on my kids and healing.  First off, thank you Ready, Treasur, and KayDee, I did read your responses at the time and it gave me a lot to mull over.  It has remained hard to limit contact with the ex, but I find myself more and more okay with it these days.  As far as the inlaw situation, it's still weird.  They came to visit again in September but he was unaware.  You are absolutely right that it's really none of his business who I have relationships with at this point.  His mom is considering writing him out of her will and me in.  I told her that if she wants to do that, it is her choice, but any money that would have gone to him should be given to the kids.  I don't need more drama from it being given to me.  I don't want to touch that mess with a ten-foot pole. 

As far as the well meaning friend, they luckily have stopped thanking me every week for the ex saving them.  I had to snort at the comment that Putin likes puppies.  I think my own thinking in the past few months has changed as well with time and being able to process and more fully choose my own response.  It's funny reading back on something that was hard for me at the time and realizing I've worked through whatever distress was caused and it doesn't bother me and I look at it slightly differently now. 

Things have been calming the last few months.  I still have my moments of resentment and bursts of sadness that I am alone and feel abandoned but it is no longer constant and most days I am pretty happy.  I had a moment a couple months ago that I was celebrating a friend's birthday with a group of women.  I looked around at all of them and realize how fortunate I am and that I was able to create this lovely support system of women.  They have become some dear friends, they are real and vulnerable and not afraid to call things like it is and I love them for it.  I realized that in my grief I ended up building a community around myself. 

The kids continue to struggle on and off but are doing okay overall and know that they are deeply loved by me.  While it's not perfect, I feel like I am doing my best and loving my kids and increasingly realizing that I don't have to be perfect to be a good mom. 

One of my children had a medical emergency requiring hospitalization for a short time.  It required dropping what I was doing and rushing this child to the hospital.  I had to call the ex, tell him and ask for help with the other kids which he gave.  He and OW came and picked up the others and took them to their house, got them to school (he's NEVER done this EVER in his years of being a dad).  He joined me at the hospital and then OW made sure they were picked up and fed and homework was done and they were taken care of.  It was a weird experience for me.  We sat all day in the hospital talking and catching up about various people we both knew and talking about what was going on in the kids lives.  He shared details of his life now and things that were frustrating him.   I felt for the first time in a long time that I missed my husband.  Sitting in the hospital felt familiar, it felt so normal to be with each other taking care of our child.  When all was said and done, and I had returned home, I felt really strongly like I should tell the OW thank you.  I had never talked to her, introduced myself, anything.  I felt so strongly like I should and have learned that when I get personal promptings to do something that is kind I should do it.  Now, this is that last thing I wanted to do at the time.  I had a strange outfit on that I had thrown on in haste to get to the hospital, I had vomit on me and hadn't showered for 40 hours and looked and smelled like it.  Let's just say it wasn't the way I would ever choose to actually meet someone.  Well, I went around to her side of the car, knocked on the window (and slightly enjoyed the look of horror on my ex's face because he had no idea what I was doing hahaha) and just told her I wanted to know how grateful I was that she took care of the kids and was kind to them.  She started getting teary.  I'm not sure what all was going on in her head and truthfully it doesn't matter.  I went inside, had a talk with my kids about doing what we feel like we should even if the other person doesn't deserve it (they were all flabbergasted at what I had done too, I think my teen still is).  After eating and getting people to bed, I had a good long ugly cry in the shower.  At first I felt so confused at why I would feel like I should thank her.  I felt it was unfair that I should have to thank someone that helped destroy my family.  I also felt a sense of relief.  So much of the anger and resentment that I had been holding onto seemed to evaporate in that moment that I expressed my gratitude.  I still don't understand why this was my path to a very powerful bit of healing in my life, but it was.  It also was scary and still is to some extent realizing that I have let that wall of anger down and now I am left somewhat unprotected.  In the end, I did what I needed to do for my own sake and peace.  I knew for me I needed to express gratitude.  It wasn't for her benefit or the ex's, it was for my own.  It was about being the person I wanted to be and showing my kids the type of person I hope they will be.  While I wouldn't want to hold that anger the rest of my life, it does leave a new sense of vulnerability.  It leaves me wondering about the nature of forgiveness and how something I was working towards with only minimal success could just happen in an instant through doing something I didn't want to do.  Also, if any newbies decide to read my monologue, realize, I don't suggest even for a second that I think that this is a solution for everyone.  It was simply what I needed to do for me. 

In the last couple of months, I have realized (or was told by my therapist and realized she was right) that I feel sorry for OW.  I know what she got and she didn't.  They now sit by me at sports games, she has even come without the ex to support the kids and sits by me.  Sometimes I don't know how my life got so weird and my friends and I laugh about it a little.  If you would have told me two years ago when the bomb went off in my life that I would be able to sit there and chit chat like that with them I would have thought you were insane.  The thing is, I don't really mind it so maybe I am the crazy one.  I guess it maybe comes with the acceptance that it is what it is and detaching.  I did talk this through with my therapist because the first time it happened I was worried.  Was I self abandoning?  Was I doing something that wasn't in my own best interest to do?  I realize though that even though it feels odd, I was being true to myself and the person I want to be.  The person I lost when for years I was stuck in a codependent trap pushing down my own instincts wants and needs.  I've realized there is power in this as well.  I took my own power back by accepting what reality is and choosing how to respond, not just reacting.  I don't have to treat their relationship as some big thing that makes me change my patterns and behaviors and ability to do and go where I please in my own community.  Last spring, they had the power, I allowed their presence to change me, to bug me to cause me to avoid them and interacting with people around them and they no longer hold that power over me. 

There have been other things along the way but nothing as major.  A few observations about the MLCer.  He seems to be slowly progressing.  Who knows where he is in the stages of things, but he is gradually becoming more helpful and thoughtful.  He seems to be missing the kids more and more and tries harder to be there for them.  He seems to feel guilty when he can't make it to something.  I've noticed he seems very forgetful about things.  I think that the limerence might finally be starting to taper off.  He has started therapy again, after quitting in a huff the last time (probably because the therapist questioned him about something and he didn't like it).  It also seems that they are also going to couples therapy.     I am a little annoyed that he would never do it for me, but really, it probably wouldn't have mattered at the time of BD anyway.  I look at it as he can't let this relationship fail because of all he gave up for it.  Who knows if that's the truth, but all is certainly not roses even though they still seem relatively happy together.  There are other signs that things aren't quite the fantasy they were at first, comments OW makes to me about how particular ex is about certain things and how she never feels like she gets it right or how she enjoys random days off in the week so she can actually have a little space and time to herself.  I guess working together and living together is maybe a bit too much together.  I'm a little unsure why she confides these small things, but it does give a window into this MLC and how things are progressing.  He has finally started to reconnect in at least a superficial way with his childhood best friend.  The friend said it's all surface level but ex has started trying to reach out again.  His siblings report the same thing, that he gradually is making contact again. 

I don't really hope that he will come back at this point, but I'm hoping if he can continue to progress he will be a better person and father by the end of this journey he is on. 

For myself, I am now feeling open to new relationships (not that I really have any clue where to find one of those as I don't really want to venture into the world of online dating).  I scheduled an international trip by myself with a singles vacation tour in a few months.  I'm equally excited and terrified to step out of my comfort zone but realize I need to do that and I am unwilling to let my own discomfort keep me from seeing the things I have always wanted to see and realize that I shouldn't wait for a husband to do those things with. 

[KayDee]

Couples therapy after 2 or so years. Um? Isn't that supposed to be the honeymoon period?

Anyway, enough of that - you sounds great MoS. It's inspiring to read, you had one helluva journey.

[Evermore]

There are so so many lines I can pull out of your post MOS where I was nodding and just saying 'yes, yes!' in my head. I'm in a very similar place to you I think (it's nice to finally be here).

I especially agree with what you say about continuing to be you, for you. Continuing to be the person you want to be, regardless of what has happened or how people have treated you. Brava. I love this update.

I think my own thinking in the past few months has changed as well with time and being able to process and more fully choose my own response.  It's funny reading back on something that was hard for me at the time and realizing I've worked through whatever distress was caused and it doesn't bother me and I look at it slightly differently now... 

...Things have been calming the last few months.  I still have my moments of resentment and bursts of sadness that I am alone and feel abandoned but it is no longer constant and most days I am pretty happy.  I had a moment a couple months ago that I was celebrating a friend's birthday with a group of women.  I looked around at all of them and realize how fortunate I am and that I was able to create this lovely support system of women.  They have become some dear friends, they are real and vulnerable and not afraid to call things like it is and I love them for it.  I realized that in my grief I ended up building a community around myself... 

... I went inside, had a talk with my kids about doing what we feel like we should even if the other person doesn't deserve it... In the end, I did what I needed to do for my own sake and peace.  I knew for me I needed to express gratitude.  It wasn't for her benefit or the ex's, it was for my own.  It was about being the person I wanted to be and showing my kids the type of person I hope they will be... 

In the last couple of months, I have realized (or was told by my therapist and realized she was right) that I feel sorry for OW.  I know what she got and she didn't.

 ... I was being true to myself and the person I want to be.  ... I took my own power back by accepting what reality is and choosing how to respond, not just reacting... 

Re online dating, I had a huge aversion to even trying and it still squicks me out a bit to think about. I tried it (kinda accidentally... funny story for another day) for a bit and was just about to abandon the idea... but at the 11th hour met a lovely lovely person a few months ago and things are progressing very well. It was totally unexpected that I would meet someone so compatible that way (or at all really). I didn't see it coming. Unlike the 'didn't see it coming' of BD this was a very nice surprise. What's an even bigger surprise to me is how I can now catch glimpses of a bright new future with someone that isn't my MLCer. Definitely didn't see that coming! It's an odd feeling, but I am using my head and steering my course in this new direction.

I wish you also surprise glimpses of a bright new future, wherever that is (and it sounds like you are having those glimpses occasionally too, so I am very happy for you!).

[MadLuv]

The person I lost when for years I was stuck in a codependent trap pushing down my own instincts wants and needs.  I've realized there is power in this as well.  I took my own power back by accepting what reality is and choosing how to respond, not just reacting.  I don't have to treat their relationship as some big thing that makes me change my patterns and behaviors and ability to do and go where I please in my own community.  Last spring, they had the power, I allowed their presence to change me, to bug me to cause me to avoid them and interacting with people around them and they no longer hold that power over me

this is detachment! When you realize it is not about you. Also, being able to step back a realize that maybe being with your x did not in the end make you your best, because they were not at their best and relationships are 50/50 and when they become uneven the one fighting harder and putting more effort in is the one that pays emotionally and physically. Who OW has in not the better version. Somehow that alone helps to be accepting of where you are and realizing although you might still Miss what you had when x was who he was, that is not who he is now. That’s at least for me what has helped me and what resonated when I read your post. 

[MomOfSteel]

KD, Ever and ML, detachment really is a glorious thing.  In the early days I didn’t get it, it didn’t feel possible and I didn’t understand how to get to that point.  Time really is the answer as annoying as it is when you are really struggling.  The reality is that we start our healing and the MLCer is so far behind.  I will say as I came upon a painful anniversary of his leaving I found myself dysregulated for a couple weeks leading up to the dates.  It caught me off guard and took me a minute to recognize why I was out of sorts.  The body really does know.  Luckily things have calmed again. 

I have continued to have a good relationship with ex and OW. It’s weird but feels right in a way.  I’ve gotten some glimpses as to the MLCers progress through his tunnel and it’s sad.  He’s still rebelling and trying to figure out who he is.  At the core, MLCers don’t know who they are, it feels as if he’s just trying on different masks hoping something will fit.  It seems that ex is getting increasingly unstable.  I think he’s starting to realize everything in his life is going to $*!&.  OW actually called me and was trying to figure out what to do.  I don’t have answers of course because if I did this probably would have never happened.  I do worry that he’s going to wreck his career if he can’t pull it together.  I think his depression is getting worse and it seems like he’s getting more erratic trying to relieve it.  He needs medication but doesn’t want to be on meds.  Now I worry about my support if he’s struggling as much as she says.  It also appears they are on the brink of breaking up.  I used to think him getting to this point would be a good thing but seeing it, I just feel bad for him and strangely wish I could have helped the OW more.  I’m not sure what I’m looking for, I guess just getting my thoughts out to someone who understands and maybe has been here.  Who really knows, but I think he’s approaching a new bottom, whether it will be rock bottom I guess we will see. 

[UrsaMajor]

No matter how far or how fast they run, there they are..... Until they deal with their issues, it is "Wash, Rinse, Spin, Repeat."

As far as helping the OW, to be honest, not your circus, not your monkeys... She made her choices to engage with a married person....

[Treasur]

It’s ok, of course, for you to do what works for you
However, I did find myself wondering if you are inadvertently now part of a triangle in which two women are now worrying about your ex as opposed to just one. While he is worrying about who….? Or taking responsibility for what….?

Idk, smells to me like a good time to step further away and leave him and ow to sort themselves out perhaps? Seems a bit icky somehow to me for you to be involved particularly if they might be breaking up and odd for ow to think it’s appropriate to look for your support. Jmo.

OW actually called me and was trying to figure out what to do…..Now I worry about my support if he’s struggling as much as she says.

[KayDee]

Wow MoM, you've come such a long way. You certainly have earned your moniker.

I think this forum consists of a very special group of people. Many of us have been the 'steely' or strong ones in relationships. With spouses and friends, some may say the fixer types (cough). I know I am. Or was, because I am trying to change that a bit. I still want to be a good friend or partner, but I want to be more reflective about my motivations too. And also question my instinct about always being the strong one, when, of course, that can't always be true. This has at times hindered my healing in the context of MLC. It's taken me a long time to see that, at this very moment, I am not necessarily stronger than my H, but I am subconsciously still putting his needs and emotions first - when I need my strength for myself. You are further along the path than I, but I suspect you are still healing, your new skin still delicate. I think your generosity is a major kindness to you xH. He is lucky to have that. You have gone through so much and done so much work to be where you are, it's a precious thing to be protected I feel,

[MomOfSteel]

Ursa, Treasur, and KD it is something I want to navigate with thoughtfulness.  I don’t want to be drawn into the mess.  By my support, I meant my child and spousal support so him blowing up his career will have VERY real consequences for me so it’s hard to ignore the situation completely.  It’s a mess to be sure but I also don’t want to be in the triangle.  I think he needs some serious mental health help but knowing him, unlikely to agree to what he needs.  I also worry that he will become suicidal and take his own life.  Mostly I told her that he needs to figure it out and to encourage him to seek help.  There just isn’t much to be done on my end anyway except discussing it with my therapist and dealing with making a better backup plan should he blow things up.  If he does destroy his career I will be looking at moving as I can’t afford my house in an extremely high cost of living area.  I really don’t know where I would go at this point but I don’t think I could stay and thinking about more upheaval for my kids makes me physically ill.

[Treasur]

Ah, my apologies….i completely misunderstood what you meant by ‘support’. Sorry.

[KayDee]

Ah, my apologies….i completely misunderstood what you meant by ‘support’. Sorry.

Yes, sorry, me too.

The intention of my post was in support of putting your health first, and keeping an eye on the toll these interactions may have. But it seems you are in a hard place in terms of balance. I imagine you feel you need to be as proactive as you can handle to try to protect the financial support for you and the children. At the same time, you must be struggling with this because you have so little control and your xH seems not to be addressing his issues at all. But you did start your post by saying that you felt good in your detachment, so you have a great framework for this now it seems.

Wishing you strength MoM.

[xyzcf]

I will say as I came upon a painful anniversary of his leaving I found myself dysregulated for a couple weeks leading up to the dates.  It caught me off guard and took me a minute to recognize why I was out of sorts.  The body really does know.  Luckily things have calmed again.

This happens to me before the date of BD...even many years later. I'm ok after that time period ( I don't remember the actual date) and being aware of why I am feeling that way helps me to understand why. Being able to evaluate how my own healing has been, allows me to accept that there will be times where it still comes up in my brain and body.

A big fear if he were to loose his job and you lose your support.I often think that if there are assets, during the settlement agreement, getting as many of those assets is preferable to spousal and child support...because the MLCer often continues down this path of destruction...I hope yours does not lose his job.

I think he needs some serious mental health help but knowing him, unlikely to agree to what he needs.  I also worry that he will become suicidal and take his own life. 

MLC has been called the "mother of all depressions".  He is the father of your children, he is someone you spent many years with and you recognize that his mental health is not good....it matters to you, because you care about him..he is the father of your children, he is someone you loved for a long time and he is showing signs of disturbing and escalating mental health issues.....your healing can occur, and I think it is quite healthy when you can realize that he is not "well" and can feel empathy for him. It doesn't stop you from healing or detaching or building your own life....we are allowed to still care about them.

[MomOfSteel]

Treasur and KayDee, no need to apologize.  I just wanted to clarify.  I realized what I wrote was vague and could be taken as my support of him.  It is a tricky situation to be in and I'm trying to follow my own gut as to what I should do.  After two years of therapy, I really do know myself so much better and understand the dynamics that our relationship had that were less than stellar.  It would be easier to just let things go if it wouldn't affect me at all.  In the end, I will always care on some level for him, I realize that this is more of a general I hope he is okay and figures himself out.  I do feel like he needs to face the reality of the mess he's created and saving him from himself won't really do much good.  At this point, the best and likely most helpful thing to him would be encouraging he gets the professional help he needs and him finally owning up to his own BS.  I feel like without owning his own garbage, healing will be really difficult for him.  In some ways, the call did give me an opening to see where his mind has been.  After so many years, you recognize someone's body language when they aren't okay.  I've suspected it for a while but haven't had confirmation that things are not the fantasy Lala land they once were.  I guess it just goes to show that he is following the typical MLC pattern even though as the LBS sometimes it feels like your MLCer really is just riding away into the sunset and truly happier than they were with you.  He's still searching, still rebelling and still empty. 

[MadLuv]

MOS- I get it. My XH was on meds and cold turkey stopped  as he also didn’t want to be on them and BD2 happened. He also married the OW and got fired. It is a hard place to be. You can cut the cord, but if you get financial support you can never completely look away.  My XH without a job for 9 mths and then he got one and I was laid off. I think knowing you may have to sell your house is looking ahead for you. Making sure your prepared for whatever happens.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I have been very busy these past few weeks, but I wanted to drop a line and at least wish you a Merry Christmas. It is so good to hear the strength in your voice coming back and it seems that you have found yourself again and that is always a positive.

In the end, I will always care on some level for him, I realize that this is more of a general I hope he is okay and figures himself out.

That is because you were married to him for a long time and had children with him. That doesn't just disappear.  But above all, it just shows that you are a decent person and despite all that has happened to you,  you still have a good heart. 

After two years of therapy, I really do know myself so much better and understand the dynamics that our relationship had that were less than stellar.

That means you had a normal relationship. I have done the same and remember moments in my past marriage where I was less than stellar. It's okay, that is what marriage is all about, celebrating with another person at their highest points and dealing with them at their lowest points. No one is perfect and no marriage is perfect.

Now I worry about my support if he’s struggling as much as she says.  It also appears they are on the brink of breaking up.

I see a huge shift in your mindset. In the past, we would have read an emotion based reaction. This is a rational response to the situation you are in. No matter how we slice it or dice it, you have four children. That means you have to have his support. I think as time passes, you will find the means to be for self-supportive, but that takes time and finding the means to accomplish such a task.

The most positive shift is that you know you have the ability to navigate these troubled waters and feel confident in the choices you are making. That's huge and not only will help you, but will help steady the lives of your precious children. That's why you are Mom of Steel!

Enjoy the holidays with your babies,

(((Ready)))

[MomOfSteel]

I guess I’m on the quarterly update plan these days.  It feels like there is so much going on I don’t have much time for much of anything these days.  Over the last few months, I have continued to get calls from OW whenever they fight.  It seems like they are constantly on the verge of breaking up except that they told me tonight that they are engaged and wanted to tell me before the kids so I wasn’t blindsided.  I’m not really sure how I feel about this.  Luckily I held it together the rest of my chiild’s baseball game and the evening since my kids are still unaware.  I feel like crying but can’t because my kids are around.  I don’t know what I expected, I guess the phone calls telling me that the ex was telling them to list the house, he was moving out, trying to break up with OW multiple times made me feel like the demise of the relationship was imminent not that they would get engaged. 

I think part of me still wants him to realize the huge mistake he made in leaving.  I thought I was over that but I guess I still have some work to do.  I suspect there will always be something that causes uncomfortable feelings, things that trigger echos of the trauma and betrayal.  The grief that still crops up from time to time still catches me off guard. 

In telling me he was engaged he told me that he considers me one of his best friends now.     How do you destroy your best friend and basically destroy almost any sense of self worth they have?  I’ve worked hard to get to where I am now but really feeling like I have value is still a struggle for me.  Most of my interactions with him are small talk because we see each other frequently at the kids events.  I’m not overly friendly, I definitely don’t confide in him, I also certainly don’t consider him a good friend to me. 

I’m also just confused and wish I understood mentally where he is at in this whole crisis.  He had the kids a couple weeks ago when they had a school break.  He texted me frequently just sharing things.  At the time I just thought, huh, this is weird and new.  It’s almost like he’s trying to reconnect a bit but that’s confusing when he just got engaged.  My mind feels like a bowl of gummy spaghetti noodles trying to make sense of this. 

On to better things, I’m headed on a solo international vacation before too long.  I realized I can’t wait for someone to share it with as I may never find someone.  It’s a little scary but I’m excited.  Hopefully I can get my mind off exH and his engagement. 

[KayDee]

Hello Mom of Steel, PhD candidate, if not a doctor already. Smart, funny, capable. Good mother. Compassionate, reflective and generous person. What other values can I list 

What struck me about the 'engagement' is that 1)it's a word 2)it sounds like the declaration of the desperate. To me it actually underlines the dysfunction of the relationship. A relationship that started off on a giant dung heap of dishonesty and betrayal, built on the pain of loved ones and the rubble of destroying others. Then, if I recall correctly, this R needed support of an IC to even keep it's engine revving, and now, somehow, needs you on the other end of the line to keep it steady (see above: beyond the call of compassion, IMO). I'll throw this out there - anyone else know of a relationship that started like this that blossomed into something beautiful? I guess your question, is 'what does this mean to me now?" I get it, because I am in a sort of similar situation. I can see my H's R is pretty dysfunctional. But it's not like I just want him to stroll back through the door. I don't think I am standing, actually. So whether his R sinks or floats shouldn't matter so much to me, right? But ha! Yes, I kinda want it to go down like the titanic too, and this is what I need to unravel for myself. I think, once I have let this go, I will be much more detached. It is quite an ineffable thing to describe though, I think, the pain that we can still feel in response (reaction?) to their behaviours. Maybe it's because some of these things sort of trample on our past? Not sure. But I imagine you will bounce back much quicker from this current hurt - after what you went through the first year, you really are a MoS....

[titleholder]

On to better things, I’m headed on a solo international vacation before too long.  I realized I can’t wait for someone to share it with as I may never find someone.  It’s a little scary but I’m excited.  Hopefully I can get my mind off exH and his engagement.

Oh MoS.. I totally get how hard it must be to hear about this engagement. It's bizar what kind of unstable relationship they choose over everything they had. But you also know that you don't have to be jealous at the relationship they're having and it would probably the relationship he would give you if he still was with you.

Super proud of your solo-trip! *hugs*

[Treasur]

You might not feel like it, MoS, but my word you have come a long way.

In telling me he was engaged he told me that he considers me one of his best friends now.   

Yeah….he’s not your friend, just as you say.
Combining ow’s communications, his texts and indeed their engagement, I found myself wondering if now you might need to stand a bit further back from these two. I understand that you made a choice in the interests of your kids but these two folks - like a lot of disordered folks - don’t have appropriate boundaries imho. So you need to have them in order to stay out of their sandpit imho.

You can be friendly in your manner without being a friend or confidante or source of support to either of them. And after all, what do you actually get from that role? You already have four kids to look after, you don’t need another two.
Ignore - or very minimal responses - to any of his texts that are not child logistics.

Next time ow reaches out to talk about her relationship with your xh - and I hope you can see how f’ed up that is for her to feel she can do that? Or how few friends your xh has, or how little he understands what friendship is, if he thinks it is appropriate to see the wife he abandoned and mistreated as one? - politely say something like sorry to hear that, but I’m not the appropriate person for you to talk to and end the conversation. Next time he has a sadz or wants to talk about his therapy needs, ditto. (And take a beat to remember just how awful your xh was to you not so long ago, and how ow colluded in that, no matter what they say now) I’m not saying you should be nasty, just less involved in their emotions and lives. After all, ha ha, they have each other for support, right? Whereas you were left with just four kids and you and tumbleweed when you needed support and compassion.

There’s a natural time I think, once we are up off our knees as you obviously seem to be, when we can adjust and adapt our choices with a bit more detachment and objectivity in a way we just can’t initially.

And on the engagement issue? Well, other than how your kids feel, not your circus. The evidence of your own eyes tells you that this is not a match made in heaven for either, and that your xh is not magically fixed by leaving you. There is a strong chance, bc it’s so common in humans, that their engagement is just another throw of spaghetti against a wall to magically make themselves feel better. It might stick, it might not. But either way, it truly says nothing at all about you and quite a lot about how they tackle life. Still not your circus though. Normal to have feelings about it of course, perhaps messy ones, or ones about it feeling like the closing of one chapter and the opening of another, but let them wash through and out. Think of it like a neighbour or babysitter telling you they are engaged - polite smile of acknowledgement, maybe even say congrats through slightly gritted teeth, but nothing to do with you really. Let it wash past and resist their desire to make you an audience and understudy lol.

Oooh solo trip sounds exciting! Tell us more. Where are you intending to go? And do?

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Over the last few months, I have continued to get calls from OW whenever they fight.  It seems like they are constantly on the verge of breaking up except that they told me tonight that they are engaged and wanted to tell me before the kids so I wasn’t blindsided.

Personally, people in a bind tend to do something huge that then blows up in their faces. Like, "our marriage is failing so lets fix it by having a baby".

All of this is their drama and having you as part of the drama makes it even more exciting. OW talking to her friends (If she has any)

"I was talking to his ex last night."
"You talk to his ex?"
"Oh, yes, we are good friends. She totally understands and empathizes with the mana project I took off her hands. Of course it broke up the family and blindsided her, but she's recovered and we are all like family."

While I never mind being part of or supporting another person's dream, I have concerns when someone wants me to be part of their fantasy.

Treasur really wrote a great response in regards to your response to him and ow. Don't let her feel as if you are an ally or a shoulder for support. Remember, you didn't buy tickets to their circus.

I just want to finish with you are now on your own two feet and keep your focus on you and your kids. Nothing else matters. That will allow you to detach even more from him and his choices.

Have an awesome day,

(((Ready)))

[Reinventing]

While I never mind being part of or supporting another person's dream, I have concerns when someone wants me to be part of their fantasy.

That is a great sentence.

[MomOfSteel]

You all make excellent points.  Really, them expecting me to hold any emotional space for them is just one more head scratcher.  My standard response has become, that must be really hard, what are you going to do about it?  I’m not about to give solutions.  I think you might be right that it’s the last (well, maybe not last) desperate attempt to hold onto things.  I have no desire to be part of their fantasy.  I’m sure in their narrative we all get along and there are no hard feelings.  I mean, they’ve always denied wrong doing and their version is so very different than mine. 

On a more fun note I arrived in Helsinki today and other than being exhausted am excited to have a minute for myself.