[Treasur]

Out of interest, where is your h living and how is he paying for that?

He moved out night of BD to a hotel for 3 nights, then to a relative for 3 weeks and is currently renting an apartment

And the money for that is coming from where? Close to the family home or further away?
Do you know how long a rental agreement he has signed?

I’m afraid that, in addition to everything else, it sounds as if you are going to have to get very practical about finances. Might be worth talking to something like Citizen’s Advice Bureau or even a women’s abuse type charity about some of your specific questions. I know you are not mentioning any history of abuse per se, but what he is doing currently - and if he Co-signed the new mortgage deal without your signing it, did you agree to that?- is financially and emotionally controlling and abusive imho. He is leaving you in a kind of s$it creek limbo of a non-marriage marriage without a paddle bc in his head it’s all about him....but in RL, there are three other people to be considered as well.

[lily22]

He has written out a list of what he intends to pay (all bills) and is making a will apparently.  He says he doesn't want divorce but wants to remain married in name and is lodging this letter with his solicitor but I know that its not worth the paper it is written on

Sounds like a clinger.  Most clingers don't want a divorce. It may seem like it's not worth the paper it's written on but if it is notarised by his solicitor, and you can ask him to do that, then it is legally binding.  So should he default on his payments, you have every right to pursue in the legal sense. 

My H never wanted a divorce and he continued to pay his contribution to the bills throughout the 9 years before we separated (including stepping up to pay the mortgage when I left my work through stress) He just didn't want to be part of the marriage and for a whole host of reasons that baffled me -chose to "stay Married" without being active in the marriage.

He texts daily so yes I definitely see him as a clinger.  But not the man I knew at all even the eldest can see that

[lily22]

Out of interest, where is your h living and how is he paying for that?

He moved out night of BD to a hotel for 3 nights, then to a relative for 3 weeks and is currently renting an apartment

And the money for that is coming from where? Close to the family home or further away?
Do you know how long a rental agreement he has signed?

I’m afraid that, in addition to everything else, it sounds as if you are going to have to get very practical about finances. Might be worth talking to something like Citizen’s Advice Bureau or even a women’s abuse type charity about some of your specific questions. I know you are not mentioning any history of abuse per se, but what he is doing currently - and if he Co-signed the new mortgage deal without your signing it, did you agree to that?- is financially and emotionally controlling and abusive imho. He is leaving you in a kind of s$it creek limbo of a non-marriage marriage without a paddle bc in his head it’s all about him....but in RL, there are three other people to be considered as well.

You're not the first to mention controlling or talking to Womens Aid.  He is getting the money from his wages.  There is literally about 3/400 left over after he pays our bills and his new place.  He is in cloud cuckoo land.  I think he has taken a years lease.  He moved 12 miles away.  Cut himself off from all family and friends.  I do feel that he thinks that by him paying the mortgage and his bills! that then thats all ok and I should be content to be here in the house with the boys.  Exactly a non marriage marriage with me with all the responsibility and stress while he lives his best life

[WHY]

In the Uk what happens is this. (I have no idea what similarities there are with the US as it seems to differ from state to state.)

If the house is registered with Land Registry in both names and you are tenants or joint tenants in common then it matters little who pays the mortgage - the house is 50/50 split regardless.

IN the UK Assuming that the LBS does have his/her name on the Land Registry , if the "leaving " party aka the MLCer defaults on his contribution to the mortgage then yes it would fall upon you to pay the remainder.  However this is one reason for divorce sad to say. If you divorce him or agree to a divorce and you have young children together, then he is obliged as the main mortgage payer to keep up with at least half or more of the payments as part of the child maintenance/support;  there is also a clause in which the children are the ones allowed to stay in the marital home with the main carer until the youngest has left full time education if the main provider has left the home.

Secondly - no he cannot touch your own bank account.  Bear in  mind too that if you have joint savings together you are entitled to half so be vigilant in case he takes the money out.  Equally though if you have debts those are also shared in the event of a divorce. If you have a pension - he might be entitled to half of that unless you can arrange with him a quid pro quo situation.  For example - I told my H I would not touch or argue for half of his boys toys when he sold them and he wasn't entitled to half my pension.  I'd done my sums and knew he would be worse off anyway and he agreed which we noted in our separation.

Thirdly - paying the bills does not compensate for his not paying for the children's needs. He is not obliged to pay for anything that you require but as a parent he will be expected to contribute fairly to the basic costs of feeding clothing and supporting your sons.

Finally - I suggest you become a little more proactive in planning to put any monies you earn into your own bank account and make a very clear list of the financial needs of the house and children.  Prepare both financially and emotionally for the fact that you cannot continue to hope that he might pay (and yes he should contribute) because MLCers are notoriously selfish when it comes to finance.  I'm very sorry to say that divorce might end up being the better option because it guarantees that he is legally obliged to pay and you could at least use legal resources to ensure some support.  I am not advocating divorce as I stood for my marriage for 9 years but I now see that it often has to be an option to help protect the LBSer.

Thank you!
If he has debts solely in his own name, am I responsible for those?  Also anything I have saved in my own bank account after he walked out, is he entitled to half of that?   My youngest will be 18 in 4 years.  But the day after he walked out he signed a new mortgage deal for the next 5 years!!!  He co signed for me (and yes I know the implications) He said we needed the rate secured because of how quick it was rising.  House is in both names.

Lily there are some glaring red flags here.  How did he co-sign if you didnt agree to it.  Did he forge your signature?  He's broken the law in this case.  This has some serious ramifications.  Did he pull equity out your home or just refinance to a lower rate?  I would make ultra sure he didnt pull any equity. 

And I dont know the laws in NI, but in US, yes, anything you save before filing for D, he will get half, and yes, you would normally be responsible for his lease if he breaks it, if he signed the lease before D (i.e. the landlord could sue your marital estate or at a minimum tank your credit rating).  Again, all laws are geographic dependent.  But these are some real world possibilities depending on what part of the world you live.

Honestly I think you should take this ultra seriously and move towards protecting yourself.  You can still stand for your marriage if D.  It doesnt mean its over.  I think RCR mentioned in one of her vids that unfortunately reconciliation chances go down if D vs standing while married.  But in the same vid she also mentions the success rates are poor in general.  So I think the incremental benefit of standing while married here, in your case, given the real risk of financial damage....  I mean it's up to you to figure out what's best for you and your kids.   

Is it possible to pursue a separation (basically full D with custody, assets, alimony etc).  You just have a piece of paper that says you're still married (a symbol of your stand).

[lily22]

I spoke with our financial advisor not long after he signed. She said she spoke to him over and over again and is sure he does intend to pay and is not doing anything untoward.  He hasn't remortgaged or refinanced.

[WHY]

I spoke with our financial advisor not long after he signed. She said she spoke to him over and over again and is sure he does intend to pay and is not doing anything untoward.  He hasn't remortgaged or refinanced.

Sorry Lily but this is BS.  You should find a new financial advisor that will protect your interests (or if you dont have assets, at least stop taking her advice).  I'm not sure what part of her fiduciary responsibility includes "hey he said he would pay for the next 30 years so dont worry about it, we're all good".....  It doesnt work like this.  She also does not know he is temporarily mentally ill.  When he defaults, is your advisor going to be responsible for the payments or liable in any way.  Not a chance. 

So dont rely on her to protect your interests.   

[lily22]

You're right. I just have to figure out what is the best way for me and my boys.
He's literally text and told me he is taking out a consolidation loan to put all the debts into one so the repayments are lower excluding the mortgage. He's also taking this out in his name only.  I have no idea what he is playing at

[xyzcf]

Hi Lily22, welcome to Hero's Spouse,

You are getting amazing advice, outside "experts" often have no understanding of MLC..the experience of members here is truly gold.

Each state/country has very different rules so I caution you to take control and really dig into what laws apply where you live. You only get one chance to secure your financial future. It is worth the time and money to make sure that you get the best possible settlement you can.  ( I am still standing after 13 years so protecting yourself financially doesn't change how you feel about your marriage or what happens between you and him  in the future).

MLCers often lie, often do not treat us fairly, often incur huge debts ( and my understanding in many places as long as you are legally married you are responsible for half of any debts regardless of who ran them up...might be different where you live). I believed (wrongly) that since he wanted out of a 32 year marriage and was having an affair, he'd be more than willing to give me a fair settlement....I was wrong about that.

I really feel taking some control of your life empowers you . So one thing I was advised to do was to obtain copies of all financial documents, tax returns for several years, credit card balances, account numbers and balances, life insurance policies. If money goes missing later on, this is your proof of what was in each account.

Keeping a record of all your expenses for at least 6 months...everything from haircuts, groceries, gas, clothing, household expenses, pet expenses, movies, magazines..I mean everything...you will be surprised  perhaps at how much that truly is....and this can be used in a settlement to determine how much you may be entitled  to. I know, it felt horrible to me to think this way about my beloved husband and I fared much better than many people on Hero's Spouse.

You might wish to consider going back to school to get more education or training if you will need to support yourself down the road.

I strongly disagree with your financial advisor as I know too many stories of people hiding money off shore, negotiating mortgages, taking out their kids college money and basically leaving the LBS with nothing.

We did have a legal separation for 7 years which allowed me to stay on his company health insurance. He sent me a text message 9 years after BD "informing me" that he had filed for a divorce...no reason given but I lost my health insurance which was quite expensive to obtain in the US.

In a settlement agreement, things like remaining a beneficiary on any life insurance policies or having a life insurance policy that he pays for for the total amount of child support and alimony in case something should happen to him is important as well as making sure you  and the kids continue to have medical insurance coverage.

My lawyer advised me to use a forensic accountant who was working for me...and he looked at all the assets (as well as making sure that there was not money "hidden") to determine what was most advantageous for me depending upon the investments as well as tax implications.

I hated doing any of this. I felt like I was being a "traitor" letting strangers know about our financial business..like you, I could not believe that he would possibly not be fair....so much betrayal!

Taking good care of yourself is the next essential thing. Regular daily exercise, preferably walking out doors, doing some calming things like yoga, breathing or meditation exercises...many classes can be found on the internet for free.

Ask as many questions as you wish. You will get a wide range of responses but only you can eventually decide what is best for you and you family.

It's not all doom and gloom..in my case, my husband has never stopped contact with me although there have been "dry" periods.....my choice has been that we spend time together as a family...holidays, beach vacations....I see MLC as some have said "the mother of all depression" and I know that there is something every wrong with the man I loved and knew for so long...it is not about me or our marriage....and I cannot "fix him".

Accepting things as they are took many years...it's a really hard thing to go through and indeed can cause severe trauma in the LBS...finding a therapist who can treat "trauma" is also important to allow you to get to a place of healing and peace.

I am truly sorry you have entered into this world of MLC...it hurts so badly. ((((HUGS))))

[Treasur]

It isn’t a very nice feeling, we know, but one of the things you are going to need to wrap your head round is that you cannot rely on your h’s word for anything vital to you and your sons’ wellbeing. A bit like your boys have said, whatever your assumptions were about the man you married, he is not going to behave like that person.  At best, it’s not a priority for him anymore; at worst, he will lie and manipulate to get what he wants or avoid dealing with predictable consequences he doesn’t like. I’m so sorry bc that is a hard thing to adjust to, isn’t it? Which is why most of us felt insane for a little while....it’s like getting on a train to Glasgow and finding yourself in Istanbul 

Lots of wise advice from xyzcf. The very first thing to do, if you have not already done it, is to start to make a full record of all the financial stuff and your basic budget, just as she says. Having more of a sense of control is important, even if the picture is horrid, and you will need this info regardless of what path you take. And resist the temptation to behave like a ‘we’ and share any of your plans or info with your h or anyone else who might share it with your h. After all, your h did not act like a We when he decided to leave, or rent a place or redo the mortgage, did he? I suspect, for instance, that his consolidation loan will have been rounded up to give him some extra spending money and/or he has debts that you don’t know about.....He is acting like a Me, and you will need to do the same. Or an Us including your boys.

This may lead you to start thinking about things like whether in the longer term you want to stay living in the area you live in now, if you have family support elsewhere, how you might want to live differently if h is out of the mix. It is amazing how creative we can get once we get up off our blindsided distressed knees.

But right now you are in the life equivalent of triage in A&E. As if you have just been in a big serious accident. So it is about survival and basics. Do you have any clear-eyed practical friends or family who might help you think things through? Or offer help or ideas you might not have considered? Or even keep hold of spare resources you can scrape up in their name so your h can’t get hold of them now or in future? Talking to other adults may also help you figure out the line of how much or how little you share with your teenage boys....they will need to know some things of course bc life is going to be different and teenagers are naturally a bit self-centred lol, but they are not adults who can or should be involved in all of it. You are the safe, sane, stable parent now....the good news is that they only need one, the bad news is that it is a hard job to do solo....which is why you need support from other adults where you can find it.

It probably all feels pretty scary and daunting right now. And every option probably feels like a bad one. What I would encourage you to start accepting is that, whatever happens with your h in future, bc of his choices, the path ahead will now be different than you thought it would be. There is no going back bc now your h is no longer safe for you to rely on as a member of your family as you once did. Not uncommon either, i’m afraid, that MLC spouses screw up their own finances, lose steady jobs or spend money on toys/drugs/ow.....behave like teenagers with credit cards essentially. There will be losses as part of that and tbh the losses tend to be front loaded in a midlife divorce/separation so it feels like an awful slog for a while. But there will be gains and freedoms too as you slowly start to steer your own ship. It can be rather surprising what we manage to live without or including things we never thought we would have to.....life gets a bit smaller and more focused in times of emergency, I think. Just like it is in A&E, our immediate priorities change.

Imho those that can stand while remaining legally married seem to fall into two camps from what I can see. Either the spouse stays at home wallowing in a real or metaphorical basement and life goes on around/without them, or the LBS can financially support themselves while they are AWOL. So, keeping the appearance of some kind of marriage is financially and emotionally sustainable. But everything we learn here suggests that, whatever we call it, the unravelling process takes years not months and that happy marital endings stories are rare. Most of us end up divorced, either from financial necessity or without having much of a say in the matter bc our spouse and/or ow want to end the marriage (bc there usually is one particularly if they move out, folks don’t rent a place to ‘be alone’, or ride their bike,  they do it to spend time socially and horizontally with other people  ) It does sound as if financially in the medium-term, divorce may be the only route to stabilise your financial future though but I am so sorry bc we all know that this is layer after layer of awfulness.

Life will be different on the other side of this, but we can promise you that there is a life in the other side of it worth working towards, that it will get better than this awful time.

[Songanddance]

I spoke with our financial advisor not long after he signed. She said she spoke to him over and over again and is sure he does intend to pay and is not doing anything untoward.  He hasn't remortgaged or refinanced.

Sorry Lily but this is BS.  You should find a new financial advisor that will protect your interests (or if you dont have assets, at least stop taking her advice).  I'm not sure what part of her fiduciary responsibility includes "hey he said he would pay for the next 30 years so dont worry about it, we're all good".....  It doesnt work like this.  She also does not know he is temporarily mentally ill.  When he defaults, is your advisor going to be responsible for the payments or liable in any way.  Not a chance. 

So dont rely on her to protect your interests.

Agree with WHY - no financial advisor worth their salt can really see into the future. That's why their advisors and not guarantors.  They will only act upon the information given to them and they may actually have no idea of the truth.

You're right. I just have to figure out what is the best way for me and my boys.
He's literally text and told me he is taking out a consolidation loan to put all the debts into one so the repayments are lower excluding the mortgage. He's also taking this out in his name only.  I have no idea what he is playing at

Ok - there is quite likely a hidden agenda here.  Which debts is he talking about - the mortgage? What other debts does he have?
 I suspect he is looking for a clean break here which in the UK is now required before a no fault divorce. My oldest D had to go down this road when divorcing her H.

Equally - do not be fooled by what your H texts - step back and see it for what it is - a deluded man who thinks he can just throw away a marriage because in his mind, if he settles all the financial issues, he isn't responsible for the hurt and pain and anguish he is causing. 

I have to say I encountered this with my H. The OW was a financial person too not an accountant but she did consultancy work for many prestitgious companies.  She advised H of all sorts of stuff and suddenly he was coming out with financial decisions for his business and suggestions as to our finances that I knew weren't his ideas; he'd always left the home finances to me and I used to book keep for his business.

You say that you think there is no other OW - I'm really sorry to say this but there might now be. MLCers are usually chaotic and equally devious.  Your H is most definitely playing a game here - consolidating the loans and only his name is not philanthropic of him - it's because he's planning something. Usually there's someone behind this need to game play especially with clingers and yours is. 

If he has debts solely in his own name, am I responsible for those?   Also anything I have saved in my own bank account after he walked out, is he entitled to half of that? 

   
These comments from various UK websites should help you with this. Note they are UK and not necessarily applicable to NI

 Who pays debt in divorce?
Any debts taken out in the name of an individual will officially remain the responsibility of the respective spouse who took out the loan etc.
If they just have their own name on the lending agreement, the creditor will only hold them responsible for payment.

How is debt divided during a divorce?
If you’re getting a divorce with debt on the books, you’ll have to look at who’s legally responsible for it. The person who signed the credit agreement is typically accountable. So, if you signed for it, you’re responsible. However, if you and your former spouse took out a joint credit arrangement, you’re both responsible for any debt that may arise.

Courts may also divide up debts when calculating how to award assets to both you and your ex-partner. They typically look at whether the debt was incurred during the marriage, and if it was to pay for something that would benefit both partners, or just one.

Paying off debts together after a divorce
When you take out a joint credit agreement – for example, a mortgage or joint credit card account – then a link is created between the two of you, called a financial association. If you and your ex-partner are financially linked, lenders may look at their credit history as well as yours if you apply for new credit on your own. Their borrowing history could affect yours, and vice versa, unless you get the financial association removed from your credit report.
https://www.equifax.co.uk/resources/debt-management/divorce-and-debt.html#:~:text=The%20person%20who%20signed%20the,any%20debt%20that%20may%20arise.


Use XYs advice about collating and record keeping.  You may need it.  Consider yourself separated from H and if truly worried seek mediation to clarify and bind H to his financial commitment.