[Treasur]

I’m not sure everyone here promotes standing. I think we accept peoples’ wish and choice to do so if, with time, that choice works for them and help them consider how to do it in a healthy way if that is their choice. And we understand that most come here initially standing and hoping for reconciliation, but that for the vast majority of us - for a variety of reasons - that’s not how it works out.

Tbh I am less concerned about whether or why people stand. I don’t see it as my business either way. I am concerned though about how any LBS gets back on their feet practically and emotionally after such a huge and painful life-altering experience. And the truth is, standing or not, the future is not yet known in all kinds of ways so I think we have to find a way to make the best we can of what is currently in front of us. Often, maybe usually, that seems to involve turning our attention away from our ex/spouse including whether they ‘recover’ or whether they want to restore a relationship in the future or not. Acorn, another poster here who is reconciled, has mentioned more than once that there is a flaw in assuming that recovery (whatever that means to you or the MLCer) = restoration of the relationship. That perhaps it is more sensible to treat them as separate things if we really accept that their issues were about them, not about us or the marriage even if those were collateral damage. So, I can imagine a situation where my xh recovered enough to, for the wont of a better term, not be bars&it crazy and weirdly entitled and destructive/self destructive without any kind of reconnection with me or any of his old life at all....well, intellectually at least, hard to imagine what that would actually feel like to be in those shoes after taking a flamethrower to your old life and the people in it lol.

All that has changed for me, years on, is that I have no skin in the game about it. It wouldn’t change anything for me at all if that makes sense? He was very important to me so writ large I suppose I think that his being a more healthy, kind and grown up human would be a nice thing....and tbh I think the world would be better with a few less dysfunctional folks 

[xyzcf]

I guess I’m really bought into the concept of MLC because I started living with an alien overnight and the script is real.

However, I’m much more skeptical about recovery or end game and if it’s worth standing at all.  All I have to go on is shocksis and a few others here that said they “loved their LBS all along”.

But 2 data points don’t make a trend.   And it sounds like the vast majority go on to live different lives.  They essentially change, heal, and no longer want their old life.

So why endure the torture of standing.  Why do we teach/promote standing here at HS if the smart move is to move on?

Standing does not equal having a restored marriage. Just like any other thing we do, standing doesn't affect the MLCer's journey.

Treasur is right. HS supports all who come here. I don't think there is any place that I have read that promotes the idea that somehow standing will increase your odds of having your spouse return.

Because this is not about you or your marriage, it is quite possible that the MLCer does still love us. I have experienced this and it's quite confusing. Many have said so to their LBSer and although that doesn't make sense, then why don't they return?

There are a multitude of reasons. Accepting that they are truly gone, not "waiting" for them to show up sorry on our doorstep is very hard to accept.

As for why do we endure the "torture" of standing....as an example of one who is a stander after 13 years, it is not torture to me at all. It is a choice, deeply internal to my being and for me, what God has asked me to do.

Treasur wrote:

And the truth is, standing or not, the future is not yet known in all kinds of ways so I think we have to find a way to make the best we can of what is currently in front of us.

Indeed. I truly believe that nothing I or anyone else says or does will matter. I consciously made a choice to be open to his contact and that has been a blessing to my daughter and I. I have a full life, a different life than I imagined and different from my married friends....somehow I have found it difficult to find many single people to spend time with so the one thing that is still difficult is that I am lonely at times.....but life holds lots of joys. I'd rather still be with my Beloved but I didn't get to decide that. That is his freedom, each one of us is entitled to that.

[WHY]

Previous Thread is here: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11923.150


I’ve seen RCR mention in multiple videos that we stand to get to a point where we’re healed enough, and of sound mind, to then decide what to do next.  This is such an important thing and I 100% agree.  Not to make any decisions out of pain or anger etc.  The LBS will suffer more if doing this.  So take the time to heal (which is different for everyone, maybe a year), then decide what you want to do with your stand. 

But here’s the second part.   All LBS hope for reconciliation.  We can try delude ourselves otherwise but deep down it’s what we want.  And if that’s the end goal, I question whether continuing to stand is the right approach.  Standing at this point will inevitably breed more anger and resentment on the LBS part as the MLCer continues to destroy those around them.  Possible creating so much destruction that there is nothing left to reconcile when the time comes.   We preach that we should fully let go.  So why not do it then and D, and let both live free to live their lives as they choose.  That way you can minimize compounding resentment on the LBS side, and the MLCer finally has the freedom to live they way they want to live.

I also think this full D allows the MLCer to live untethered from the LBS.  it becomes harder to blame the LBS for the way they still feel.  And I believe they’re more likely to self reflect sooner (ie shorten the journey through the tunnel).

And the LBS can live free and no longer be a victim.  GAL.  Date if they chose.  Pursue a life without resentment.

And at that point, years down the line, IF the MLCer heals, I genuinely believe this situation has a better chance of reconciliation. 

However, I have seen RCR mention in her videos that if D takes place, that reconciliation is less likely.   I assume this is from evidence collected over the years.  And I’d love to understand this concept more as it seems to conflict with what I honestly believe would be a better approach.  Is there a way to tag RCR in this thread?

Treasur - as you said, for the vast majority here, reconciliation does not take place.  For me I think it would be helpful to understand what could be the possible reasons.  Is it that the MLCer has become a different person altogether and the marriage is no longer compatible.  Possible.  The MLCer never heals?  Probable.  But I think it has more to do with the destruction where LBS says they don’t actually want to reconcile.  Because again, resentment and too much destruction has taken place. 

So perhaps it would be possible to increase the odds of reconciliation by actually fully letting go, like we preach, and D.

Also what you said about Acorn.  Thank you for mentioning this.  I had forgotten this concept and it’s great you bring it up.  Fully agree. The one MLCer I’ve spoken to in person never healed.  And this is just another layer of the reconciliation puzzle that’s stacked against us.  And in what scenarios does the MLCer have a better chance of self repair.  Staying married for years while having an affair?  Or living fully on their own to hit rock bottom sooner?  I think the latter.  Rock bottom is a slow process if you have the safety net of a marriage and a LBS spouse that’s standing.

Anyway these are just thoughts the come to mind.  Each situation is different.  Each MLCer is different.  I just think it would be helpful to look at the data collected on HS for over a decade, about which approaches worked.  And those that did not.

Perhaps others could help me populate.

Whether to D or not if you deep down hope for reconciliation:

Pros:
1) LBS lives a life without further resentment
2) breaks away from the destruction the MLCer causes so that LBS does not hit that point of no return
3) likely MLCer will hit rock bottom sooner and progress through tunnel faster
4) the MLCer needs to heal to have a shot at reconciliation. And who knows if this will ever happen!?  So this fact alone largely supports D

Cons:
1) RCR mentions D has a lower chance of reconciliation.  Need to understand Y?
2) MLCer could meet someone else that can delay the rock bottom process for years.

[Ready2Transform]

So why endure the torture of standing.  Why do we teach/promote standing here at HS if the smart move is to move on?

Just to add to the things I absolutely agree with that Treasur and xyzcf have said, the main site used to say something along the lines of working toward minimizing the number of divorces as one of the main missions of standing (not those exact words, but that was the gist of it).

I didn't particularly care about divorce in general being eradicated, as I'm not anti-divorce at all, but I definitely didn't want one myself (initially). So that mission served me at the time and I ate up all of the standing info I could get.

Even if you could convince your MLCer to go, it wouldn’t work unless they really wanted it?  Kind of like couples counseling I guess.

Think about it like addiction, too. You can have an intervention with a loved one who is an addict or an alcoholic, but they're going to have to wake up to their need for help themselves. You could put them in the best rehab facility in the world, and nothing about being there would have any effect if they didn't become part of the process too, of their own volition. Sucks for everyone involved, because we are so willing to work with them to heal these marriages and get back on track, even when WE are the ones who are taking the hit with the infidelity, financial and emotional abuse, etc. But, to borrow from "the script" they all enjoy speaking from so much, "It is what it is."

[xyzcf]

We are divorced. My husband has been totally free to live as he wished for 13 years .... so I am not sure why you think that a divorce allows them to move more quickly through the crisis.....or that somehow you are restricting them if you are not divorced.

Standing at this point will inevitably breed more anger and resentment on the LBS

Not true for me.

And the LBS can live free and no longer be a victim.  GAL.  Date if they chose.  Pursue a life without resentment.

I don't live my life with resentment. I am not living as though I am a victim.

I do believe that my husband had a crisis, I do believe this was not his "fault" and not mine either. I do believe that there is so much we do not understand, when a loving spouse of 32 years wakes up one morning and tells you you have to go without any warning and without any willingness to work on whatever the problem is....so perhaps I am more willing to distance myself from his crisis....we often say live as though he/she  is never coming back.

 

Rock bottom is a slow process if you have the safety net of a marriage and a LBS spouse that’s standing.

I don't think it matters..they don't care and our actions don't impact them unless perhaps we continue to pursue them and engage in trying to convince them they are wrong.

Standing is a personal decision that most people will not continue with. It's not something to be "used" to hurry them up or that somehow will be harmful to the stander.

If you have problems with the concept of standing, if you feel you want to date and find another partner then do this because it's what you want...and not to have an influence on your spouse.

The "data" you are asking for, it has been discussed several times but it's not any real data because we have no idea how many people never continue to post on HS.....it would all be circumstantial and way to many variables to be statistically significant.

You are right about this WHY "And the LBS can live free" ..live and be free...they left the marriage, probably long before they ever told us so live what you see is right for you..for nothing I have seen will bring them back unless they find their way themselves.

[Songanddance]

So why endure the torture of standing.  Why do we teach/promote standing here at HS if the smart move is to move on?

3 very different things here. 
1. For some LBsers there is no torture in standing - it is what they choose to do because it suits them at that time and choosing to stand is always a daily decision whether the LBSer be divorced or watching as I did the stay at home MLCer carry on the affair.
2. Teaching is very different from promoting. Teaching is helping people understand what standing is and that's what RCR advocates - knowledge and understanding before action.
3. Promoting is a very proactive process and urges people to follow accordingly.  Here at HS we don't "promote" standing - if we do promote then we promote the opportunity to learn about standing and then encourage the LBsers to make their own decisions based on what they believe and understand.

I stood for my marriage until H and I separated.  I am still technically married but we are legally separated.  We might D - we might not. All I know is that I stood for over 8 years and then one day felt no longer the need to do so.

As XY says - all data on here is circumstantial and only based on what the LBS tells us. Many of the LBS stories on here are not always the full facts  and there's nothing wrong with that. HS is not a professional counselling or marital guidance service and neither is it the world's authority on MLC and TBH - every MLCer may stick to script but their own journeys through the crisis are unique.

RE EMDR for MLCers - if I could do GIFS I would echo UM's.  Having had EMDR twice and having looked at something that I didn't really want to face in my own demons ; I can say it is not for the faint hearted. It is certainly something that you need to be completely prepared to be open and honest with and you also need not to be afraid to allow your vulnerability to emerge and take over.  Immediately after EMDR - I was an emotional wreck.  Later that day I felt freed from that part of my life that had caused me pain.  I now accept and understand that part of me so much better. 
Could an MLCer right in the height of their crisis handle it?  NOPE!

My H has, since his stroke, had a form of counselling/therapy for his post stroke depression and he has become a slightly better person. However, when I asked if he had begun to address any of the issues in his past,  such as his teenage crises or even his affair,  he said said that it's not really something he wants to discuss with the counsellor - because "it's none of their business" .  As a technical engineer, he wants one practicable and logical solution to his depression and even now almost 2 yrs on from his stroke cannot accept that depression is a process and not a tick box.
How on earth he will ever face the other demons in his life is beyond me and more importantly it has never been my problem (standing or not)- it's all on him.

[WHY]

So if a MLCer never heals.  Does this mean they don’t reach the depression / acceptance phase?

And if they never face the depression stage.  Are they stuck in replay to the grave?

[Songanddance]

So if a MLCer never heals.  Does this mean they don’t reach the depression / acceptance phase?

And if they never face the depression stage.  Are they stuck in replay to the grave?

No not necessarily stuck in replay.   The largest section of the MLC crisis is Escape and Avoid of which replay is a part.  Escape and Avoid is a comfort zone for the MLCer.  It is where some of them may poke their heads out for a long period of time, recognise the wrongs they have done but do nothing about resolving them or healing themselves. 
For some MLCers escape and avoid is like the frog in the pot of water.  Put a frog into boiling water - it'll jump out. Put a frog into cold water and very very slowly warm the water up but never reach boiling and it will adjust and stay there.

Replay is continuing to act out, carry on the affair or to bounce from one OP to another or from one distraction to another. At some point for almost all MLCers - this will stop but it doesn't mean they are coming out of Escape and Avoid - it just means that they have stopped or seriously reduced the high energy go go go approach whether that's in physical movement, language or emotional behaviours.

This is why stage watching is never advised.  It's useful to know so that once you understand the process of MLC you can detach healthily and make observations about your MLCer but it is not a hard and fast guaranteed rule.

Some MLCers will never get out of replay. Some will wallow for years after a high energy burst. Some will be quiet, withdrawn and maybe go backwards for a long time,; there is no one way through the crisis.

Escape and Avoid is always there and only burns through when the MLCer has genuinely begun to heal and fully recognise or even atone for his/her actions.   Reconnection can happen in the latter stages of escape and avoid as long as the LBS recognises that reconnection is no guarantee of reconciliation and treats reconnection for what it is - re-connecting except for on a marital, deeply emotional level.
 For me Reconciliation is the desire to be and work together no matter what. The desire by the MLCer and LBS to truly work on a deeper more meaningful, honest relationship no matter how hard it is.

So what can the LBser do ? Nothing - nothing at any point except step back, pursue your own life, create new dreams and desires and live as if they are not coming back. Then if they do - you are ready to know that you know that you know that it is what you want to and are prepared to do the hard work WITH them.

[Thunder]

All very true, Song.

WHY you also need to keep in mind this crisis is all about depression, it's not one of the stages.
They will try to run from feeling that depression, which usually comes in the form of Escape and Avoid.
But no matter how hard and fast they try to run from it, that depression goes with them, until they do the inner work they need to do.  That could take a very long time.

[WHY]

All very true, Song.

WHY you also need to keep in mind this crisis is all about depression, it's not one of the stages.
They will try to run from feeling that depression, which usually comes in the form of Escape and Avoid.
But no matter how hard and fast they try to run from it, that depression goes with them, until they do the inner work they need to do.  That could take a very long time.

If they don’t heal.  Do they remain depressed for the rest of their lives?