[Atari25]

For 25 years I was happily married. 2 kids (22 and 19), a dog and a beautiful home. Happy.

My wife started a new job as an airline flight attendant almost a year ago. It was a dream job for her believe it or not, she loved to fly and was always fascinated with flight. I couldn't be happier after she lost her party business during the pandemic.  We talked about weekends away and all the discount/free flying we were going to get. January 6 she walked out of the house and is now renting an apartment, she wants a legal separation.

I started noting changes in her behavior over the summer. More selfish, less friendly, less interested in the kids and less interested in me.  Substantial weight loss, 2 tattoos and some late and uncharacteristic drinking nights with some "new friends" at the golf club rounded things out as we came into fall. We have several friends and neighbors that we did dinners and shows with but I also noticed she was always using flying as an excuse not to do things with them.  She was definitely off.

I was really hoping to get things back on track with a cruise we had booked in conjunction with our 25th anniversary. After our 25th I wanted to discuss some details about our trip - she literally freaked out and said she didn't want to go and thought we needed a break or some time apart. "Love you but not in love with you" literally came right out of her mouth.  I was crushed, shocked and disturbed by the fear and terror in her eyes. I had never seen this before.

In 25 years I never doubted our love, never dreamed of being with anyone but her.  Obviously we had our ups and downs but we rarely fought and always got along. Counseling about 10 years ago helped a little with some issues at the time but I always felt there were unresolved issues from her childhood. I don't know exactly what they are but seemed to involve her father. Both parents have passed now. I suggested couples counseling again - she said there  was no point.

As Christmas approached things got worse. I was reading up on MLC and I was pretty sure that was the source of her behavior, her withdrawal from the family and her narcissistic ways.  She did nothing for Christmas for the kids, didn't decorate the house as usual and told my daughter "she wasn't into Christmas this year". I scrambled to pick up the slack and make sure my kids has presents, a nice Christmas dinner and  decorated as best I could. She was home for part of Christmas day and then had to work in the afternoon. It was sad and depressing. She was completely disinterested in being home.

The last week at home my wife had an eye infection and blamed me for it not going away, said it was stress related. She was miserable to everyone in the house that week and was completely self absorbed in own problem, nothing else. We all avoided her at home as much as possible, walking on egg shells big time. When she left it was almost a relief in a way but it was also the most devastating thing that has ever happened to me. My wife was gone.

Looking back and reflecting, she is definitely in a full MLC.  She is not my wife. I am scared, sick to my stomach and worried about her every day. I know I have to leave her be for now and there is little I can do. My kids have told her to get help or they won't go see her. I'm a wreck.

[UrsaMajor]

Hi and welcome to the party that no one EVER wanted to be invited to.

A couple of things right up front. I would HIGHLY suggest you change your screen name to something a little less identifiable. We have a basic rule that nothing that could personally identify a member should be posted, including screen names. This is because this is an openly accessible public forum and Mid-Lifers have been known to stalk the LBS here. If you post things that can be personally traced back, it looks great in divorce court (shoudl it come to that).

Second, your kids are old enough to be able to know a rat when they smell it and have already called her out. Be prepared that she will monster on them as well as you. Anyone who expects any kind of accountability form her will automatically be classified as "the enemy." Your kids are also old enough to have their own relationship with her. You don't need to run interference for them. However, they will be looking to you to be the stable parent as W goes further and further off the rails....

Third, as you've already noticed, her habits have changed and so have her priorities. Things like budgeting for the future. Make sure that your finances are protected because, in their search for "happy," Mid-Lifers can burn through money like a hot knife through warm butter...

Other than that, I am really sorry that you needed to find us but, at the same time, glad that you have. You'll see that this community is full of people that will have experienced things very similar to you. There will be lots of advice offered. Take what is useful to you, discard that which is not useful to you.

This is a long, drawn out process that lasts for years. This is NOT a sprint to the finish but rather an ultra-marathon slog through the mud with no guarantee of success at the finish line. Some Mid-Lifers get their heads out of their ..... fog. Other's don't. Some couple reconnect, some don't, some reconcile, some don't.  Each of us has to find our own way through this minefield called MLC but you have support here within this group .

[Treasur]

So sorry you need to find yourself here but glad you found us. It is still very early days for you and the kids, so I imagine you are all reeling a bit.

You said she wants a legal separation. Have you taken legal advice where you live on your options? And what do YOU want given the cards in your hand as you see them?

One of the sobering things as an old hand here is that, sadly, things almost always get worse and feel worse before they start to evolve into some version of better that you can live with. I don’t know how conjoined your finances are, or your financial situation if you separate. I would agree with UM about doing what you need to do to protect your family’s long term financial interests though. Who is paying for her new abode? Sadly too, the chances that there are OM/men in the mix is high…..very few folks who act this way do not have an affair, and her new work environment is sadly rather notorious for it, so you may need to prepare yourself for that. It may or may not be MLC….that tends to show up more clearly with time and more WTF stuff….but whether it is or it isn’t, you still have to find your own best way to navigate what I am sure feels like a hurricane.

How are you doing? What are you doing to take good care of yourself right now? Basic stuff like food, sleep, exercise, emotional wellbeing, work, support from friends or family.
How much or how little communication do you currently have with her? Or want to have?
And what are your pressing priorities at the moment so we can support you better?

[Atari25]

Hi and welcome to the party that no one EVER wanted to be invited to.

A couple of things right up front. I would HIGHLY suggest you change your screen name to something a little less identifiable. We have a basic rule that nothing that could personally identify a member should be posted, including screen names. This is because this is an openly accessible public forum and Mid-Lifers have been known to stalk the LBS here. If you post things that can be personally traced back, it looks great in divorce court (shoudl it come to that).

Second, your kids are old enough to be able to know a rat when they smell it and have already called her out. Be prepared that she will monster on them as well as you. Anyone who expects any kind of accountability form her will automatically be classified as "the enemy." Your kids are also old enough to have their own relationship with her. You don't need to run interference for them. However, they will be looking to you to be the stable parent as W goes further and further off the rails....

Third, as you've already noticed, her habits have changed and so have her priorities. Things like budgeting for the future. Make sure that your finances are protected because, in their search for "happy," Mid-Lifers can burn through money like a hot knife through warm butter...

Other than that, I am really sorry that you needed to find us but, at the same time, glad that you have. You'll see that this community is full of people that will have experienced things very similar to you. There will be lots of advice offered. Take what is useful to you, discard that which is not useful to you.

This is a long, drawn out process that lasts for years. This is NOT a sprint to the finish but rather an ultra-marathon slog through the mud with no guarantee of success at the finish line. Some Mid-Lifers get their heads out of their ..... fog. Other's don't. Some couple reconnect, some don't, some reconcile, some don't.  Each of us has to find our own way through this minefield called MLC but you have support here within this group .

Thank you for the reply.

I'm lucky my kids are older. It's their decision to push her into therapy - they have seen the changes first hand. They know something is very wrong and her stories don't jive with their own recollection of events.

She already took $25K off the credit home line. I called the bank to lower the limit to the current balance. She caught me off guard, won't happen again.

From everything I read it's a long haul yes. Do you think there is hope based on where I'm at?

[Atari25]

So sorry you need to find yourself here but glad you found us. It is still very early days for you and the kids, so I imagine you are all reeling a bit.

You said she wants a legal separation. Have you taken legal advice where you live on your options? And what do YOU want given the cards in your hand as you see them?

One of the sobering things as an old hand here is that, sadly, things almost always get worse and feel worse before they start to evolve into some version of better that you can live with. I don’t know how conjoined your finances are, or your financial situation if you separate. I would agree with UM about doing what you need to do to protect your family’s long term financial interests though. Who is paying for her new abode? Sadly too, the chances that there are OM/men in the mix is high…..very few folks who act this way do not have an affair, and her new work environment is sadly rather notorious for it, so you may need to prepare yourself for that. It may or may not be MLC….that tends to show up more clearly with time and more WTF stuff….but whether it is or it isn’t, you still have to find your own best way to navigate what I am sure feels like a hurricane.

How are you doing? What are you doing to take good care of yourself right now? Basic stuff like food, sleep, exercise, emotional wellbeing, work, support from friends or family.
How much or how little communication do you currently have with her? Or want to have?
And what are your pressing priorities at the moment so we can support you better?

Thank you. I have a phone consultation with a lawyer tomorrow. I never thought I would need this - I'm blind going in other than what I have read.

My finances are secure as far as I know now. We never had joint credit cards.

So much WTF stuff, I couldn't even list it all.

I'm ok and I'm at the gym regularly as usual - I always eat well. My daughter is my rock. Trying to get out and do things but I always feel like I shouldn't have fun.

No communication really - she wanted space. Is that the right way to go?
What should I discuss with the lawyer? Any thoughts?
Started therapy last week also to cope.

[UrsaMajor]

From everything I read it's a long haul yes. Do you think there is hope based on where I'm at?

I'll be blunt - you are at the starting gate  of a 7-year+ slog. How it will end is anyone's guess. It will depend on how willing your Mid-Lifer is to really come to grips and get help for the issues that have caused the problems (FOO) in the first place.  That means that she will have to take responsibility for her actions and for the consequences of her actions. The 25K$ is a perfect example. That is something that will have to be recovered at some point. Unfortunately, at this point, unless you get some sort of written document that says you were separated as of such and such a date (before she raided the Crown Jewels) you are likely stuck with half of that debt, depending on the laws where you live.

As far as the lawyer consult goes, you need to know what options you have going forward. Things like joint debt, ownership of the house, spousal support, college tuition costs for your kids, the applicability of legal separation vs. a full-blown D, whether or not you can change the locks (seriously - in some places you can't if she is on the mortgage or deed), what it is going to cost you if you have to go the D route....

This is all information that you do not need to act on immediately but it is information that is important for you to have.... Knowledge is power and information allows for informed decision making

[Atari25]

From everything I read it's a long haul yes. Do you think there is hope based on where I'm at?

I'll be blunt - you are at the starting gate  of a 7-year+ slog. How it will end is anyone's guess. It will depend on how willing your Mid-Lifer is to really come to grips and get help for the issues that have caused the problems (FOO) in the first place.  That means that she will have to take responsibility for her actions and for the consequences of her actions. The 25K$ is a perfect example. That is something that will have to be recovered at some point. Unfortunately, at this point, unless you get some sort of written document that says you were separated as of such and such a date (before she raided the Crown Jewels) you are likely stuck with half of that debt, depending on the laws where you live.

As far as the lawyer consult goes, you need to know what options you have going forward. Things like joint debt, ownership of the house, spousal support, college tuition costs for your kids, the applicability of legal separation vs. a full-blown D, whether or not you can change the locks (seriously - in some places you can't if she is on the mortgage or deed), what it is going to cost you if you have to go the D route....

This is all information that you do not need to act on immediately but it is information that is important for you to have.... Knowledge is power and information allows for informed decision making

I figured a lawyer consult was important. Maybe it will help calm my nerves and my stomach. Right now I feel like I'm always waiting for another shoe to drop or to discover something new. Seems like every 2-3 days something else comes up!

I can't imagine 7 years of this. I'm praying the kids are important enough for her to take action and see someone but maybe I'm dreaming given that very little from her past seems important to her anymore.

I always have a sick feeling and stress in my neck. I still cannot believe she is acting like this.  Scary part is all of her revised history and stories sound very matter of fact when she tells them!

[AlvinTheMaker]

Hi Atari25,

Sadly gaslighting and storytelling is one of those things that will hit you hard. You will be the bad guy in her stories, and best you can do is to acknowledge it is nothing more than her current twisted take on history. You have no need to forget or change your own memories, instead cherish them and share them with your loved ones.

Also take good care of yourself. Mentally and physically and spiritually  The next 6-10 months will be hardest ones of your life, so prioritize your well-being. Anxiety is common (until you truly learn to separate what you control and what you do not), so are anger, frustration, despair and even love. The more you can keep your eyeballs on you and your own emotional wellbeing, the less you will hurt. And don't worry if you fail, everyone here has failed time and again...  slow down whenever you can. There is no rush anywhere (it's just the discomfort of anxiety that's making it feel like you need to act asap).

It is also good to acknowledge this is not about you. You cannot push her out of this. And you cannot nice her out. She is going through a personal crisis, and it will end only when she hits the bottom and wants out of it (and sadly it can take years and years, possibly forever).  Sadly her crisis has created another crisis for you and your family. It is something you can control.Focus on resolving it.

How to navigate through .... It seems keeping future talks on strictly business (kids, logistics etc) from this point onwards is best route for many. She is not telling you everything, and you need to learn the same. Avoid personal relationship talks with her. For yourself find a good therapist, also feel free to vent here. For myself journaling was and is a lifesafer in organizing my chaotic thoughts.

Last but not least, be there for your children. Even if they are on early stages of adulthood, they will need support and love of a sane parent possibly more than ever.

Hugs and strength,
Alvin

[JohnnyBravo]

I figured a lawyer consult was important. Maybe it will help calm my nerves and my stomach.

As much as I didn't want to talk to a lawyer (because it made me face reality?), it did ultimately help me feel like I was doing something useful and proactive for myself, and that I was taking control of my personal future, even if there would no longer be an "our future." My lawyer was sympathetic but knew the realities of the legal landscape.

JB

[forthetrees]

Use your therapist for emotional support and your lawyer for the legal aspects and try not to confuse their roles with how you spend your time with them. Lawyers are very expensive untrained therapists- so keep the business side separate from the healing side.

You are collateral damage and as Marvin says, you cannot nice them out of it. I would bet that over 95% of us look back and wish we had invested our energy in our own healing and kids if they are a part of the picture as opposed to focusing on the MLCer. The sooner you look the reality of the now head on, the sooner you will find your center. The concept of standing at this point is to find your center and reach a point in the journey where you consistently respond instead of react.

Do find out from your lawyer what boundaries you can establish in terms of her waltzing in and out of the home with or without warning. Find out if your state has a legal separation status or not. Find out where you stand in terms of health insurance for you, spouse and kids. If you have a child applying for FAFSA tuition forms find out how her abandonment affects the numbers you put down. Be clear on auto insurance and know if you are on the hook if she has an accident. Ask about her responsibility for utilities and property taxes. How will you file for 2023 income tax? What should you know going forward in terms of 401k contributions and if those funds would or would not be split? Is your state divorce based on 50/50 or need or educational attainment or current lifestyle? Basically, what are you on the hook for if it all goes south? Should you have her sign a document stating the date that she left the marital home?

You are VERY wise to get counseling as this may well be the worst experience you´ll ever have in your life. Do avoid conversations that may lead to her saying things that will reverberate in your head to the end of time. Just because some of what they say isn´t true doesn´t mean that it doesn´t hurt.

Don´t use alcohol or drugs as a coping mechanism. Do use exercise and time in nature to cope. Do not open the dating world door until you are well-healed and resolved about your decisions to stand, reconcile or divorce.  Remember that your kids though young adults are experiencing abandonment and likely do not have the emotional took kit to deal. They would also benefit from counseling.

The only way past it is through it but you will make progress and haul yourself out of the morass.

[Atari25]

From everything I read it's a long haul yes. Do you think there is hope based on where I'm at?

I'll be blunt - you are at the starting gate  of a 7-year+ slog. How it will end is anyone's guess. It will depend on how willing your Mid-Lifer is to really come to grips and get help for the issues that have caused the problems (FOO) in the first place.  That means that she will have to take responsibility for her actions and for the consequences of her actions. The 25K$ is a perfect example. That is something that will have to be recovered at some point. Unfortunately, at this point, unless you get some sort of written document that says you were separated as of such and such a date (before she raided the Crown Jewels) you are likely stuck with half of that debt, depending on the laws where you live.

As far as the lawyer consult goes, you need to know what options you have going forward. Things like joint debt, ownership of the house, spousal support, college tuition costs for your kids, the applicability of legal separation vs. a full-blown D, whether or not you can change the locks (seriously - in some places you can't if she is on the mortgage or deed), what it is going to cost you if you have to go the D route....

This is all information that you do not need to act on immediately but it is information that is important for you to have.... Knowledge is power and information allows for informed decision making

I can't change the locks but I will be asking all the other questions for sure. I already pay the whole mortgage and I support the kids in school. I will probably have to take over the utilities but that's the least of my worries.

You are right though, information is power.

[Atari25]

Use your therapist for emotional support and your lawyer for the legal aspects and try not to confuse their roles with how you spend your time with them. Lawyers are very expensive untrained therapists- so keep the business side separate from the healing side.

You are collateral damage and as Marvin says, you cannot nice them out of it. I would bet that over 95% of us look back and wish we had invested our energy in our own healing and kids if they are a part of the picture as opposed to focusing on the MLCer. The sooner you look the reality of the now head on, the sooner you will find your center. The concept of standing at this point is to find your center and reach a point in the journey where you consistently respond instead of react.

Do find out from your lawyer what boundaries you can establish in terms of her waltzing in and out of the home with or without warning. Find out if your state has a legal separation status or not. Find out where you stand in terms of health insurance for you, spouse and kids. If you have a child applying for FAFSA tuition forms find out how her abandonment affects the numbers you put down. Be clear on auto insurance and know if you are on the hook if she has an accident. Ask about her responsibility for utilities and property taxes. How will you file for 2023 income tax? What should you know going forward in terms of 401k contributions and if those funds would or would not be split? Is your state divorce based on 50/50 or need or educational attainment or current lifestyle? Basically, what are you on the hook for if it all goes south? Should you have her sign a document stating the date that she left the marital home?

You are VERY wise to get counseling as this may well be the worst experience you´ll ever have in your life. Do avoid conversations that may lead to her saying things that will reverberate in your head to the end of time. Just because some of what they say isn´t true doesn´t mean that it doesn´t hurt.

Don´t use alcohol or drugs as a coping mechanism. Do use exercise and time in nature to cope. Do not open the dating world door until you are well-healed and resolved about your decisions to stand, reconcile or divorce.  Remember that your kids though young adults are experiencing abandonment and likely do not have the emotional took kit to deal. They would also benefit from counseling.

The only way past it is through it but you will make progress and haul yourself out of the morass.

I have completely avoided alcohol and drugs. Alcohol makes me ill right now, it doesn't make me feel better. The gym is literally the only thig making me feel a little better.


I live in Canada so some of those things you mention don't apply here. I already paid for most of the house and kid expenses. If it goes to divorce she will get 1/2 the house and 1/2 the retirement funds. Not much I can do.

I will offer the kids counseling, that's a good idea. They seem sad but fine but, who knows. 

 I did learn over the past few months that being nice does nothing. She says I am smothering her. Clearly my kindness pushed her away if anything. It's just so hard to understand how the nice wife I had a year ago turned into a crazy person so fast. I don't feel like I even know her anymore. Heartbreaking..

As much as I didn't want to talk to a lawyer (because it made me face reality?), it did ultimately help me feel like I was doing something useful and proactive for myself, and that I was taking control of my personal future, even if there would no longer be an "our future." My lawyer was sympathetic but knew the realities of the legal landscape.

JB

That's my thinking also. Thanks.

[Atari25]

Also take good care of yourself. Mentally and physically and spiritually  The next 6-10 months will be hardest ones of your life, so prioritize your well-being. Anxiety is common (until you truly learn to separate what you control and what you do not), so are anger, frustration, despair and even love. The more you can keep your eyeballs on you and your own emotional wellbeing, the less you will hurt. And don't worry if you fail, everyone here has failed time and again...  slow down whenever you can. There is no rush anywhere (it's just the discomfort of anxiety that's making it feel like you need to act asap).

It is also good to acknowledge this is not about you. You cannot push her out of this. And you cannot nice her out. She is going through a personal crisis, and it will end only when she hits the bottom and wants out of it (and sadly it can take years and years, possibly forever).  Sadly her crisis has created another crisis for you and your family. It is something you can control.Focus on resolving it.

How to navigate through .... It seems keeping future talks on strictly business (kids, logistics etc) from this point onwards is best route for many. She is not telling you everything, and you need to learn the same. Avoid personal relationship talks with her. For yourself find a good therapist, also feel free to vent here. For myself journaling was and is a lifesafer in organizing my chaotic thoughts.

Last but not least, be there for your children. Even if they are on early stages of adulthood, they will need support and love of a sane parent possibly more than ever.

Hugs and strength,
Alvin

Thanks Alvin. Good advice.

Why will the next 6-10 months be hard, I kind of thought they might be a good cooling off time after run up to her leaving?

I have not spoken with her in 2 weeks+ now.

What should I journal?

[AlvinTheMaker]

.

Why will the next 6-10 months be hard, I kind of thought they might be a good cooling off time after run up to her leaving?

I have not spoken with her in 2 weeks+ now.

First, human mind is slow on catching up with changes. They say there is at least a 3 month learning/adoption curve to new situations and changes. Some say breakup/divorce is like small death, and there is lot of true in it imho. Emotions come and go during that time, and you will have your own emotional rollercoaster to deal with.

Second, unless your W is a vanisher, you will encounter bat$h!te crazy moments when she does things that will trigger you one way or another.  On paper 50/50 split with finances, estate and custody sounds easy, but in practice it can be really hard if the other party is not acting sanely.The stories other LBS share here are filled with hundreds of crazy examples.

.
What should I journal?

I don't think there is right or wrong way of doing it. My personal journal had entries with bullet points, long text, short text, drawings, events, summaries of useful items etc.... Journaling/writing is just one of the many psychologically proven ways for decluttering and organizing complex thoughts and emotions.

Hope this helps.

Alvin

[Atari25]

First, human mind is slow on catching up with changes. They say there is at least a 3 month learning/adoption curve to new situations and changes. Some say breakup/divorce is like small death, and there is lot of true in it imho. Emotions come and go during that time, and you will have your own emotional rollercoaster to deal with.

Second, unless your W is a vanisher, you will encounter bat$h!te crazy moments when she does things that will trigger you one way or another.  On paper 50/50 split with finances, estate and custody sounds easy, but in practice it can be really hard if the other party is not acting sanely. The stories other LBS share here are filled with hundreds of crazy examples.


I don't think there is right or wrong way of doing it. My personal journal had entries with bullet points, long text, short text, drawings, events, summaries of useful items etc.... Journaling/writing is just one of the many psychologically proven ways for decluttering and organizing complex thoughts and emotions.

Hope this helps.
Alvin

It all helps Alvin thanks. I truly appreciate it.

You are right, it does take time for things to sink in and I am very much expecting more crazy talk and incidents. It all feels like a dream, I guess reality sinks in slowly.

I bought a small journal - I will take your advice and write down some feelings and thoughts.  One thing I have noticed is my feelings and views of the situation are still very fluid and more happens and I speak and hear from more people.

[WHY]

I’m two years in. It’s still a dream.   Being “ghosted” by W after 20 years.   I’ll never wrap my head around it….

[Atari25]

I’m two years in. It’s still a dream.   Being “ghosted” by W after 20 years.   I’ll never wrap my head around it….

Wow. I'm sorry to hear that. Is she with someone else now?

I'll be blunt - you are at the starting gate  of a 7-year+ slog. How it will end is anyone's guess. It will depend on how willing your Mid-Lifer is to really come to grips and get help for the issues that have caused the problems (FOO) in the first place.  That means that she will have to take responsibility for her actions and for the consequences of her actions. The 25K$ is a perfect example. That is something that will have to be recovered at some point. Unfortunately, at this point, unless you get some sort of written document that says you were separated as of such and such a date (before she raided the Crown Jewels) you are likely stuck with half of that debt, depending on the laws where you live.

I spoke with a lawyer - she went through everything. I feel better now. She has no access to any more money or credit.

I'm not doing anything further until I hear from her. I promised my daughter I would try again to get her into therapy and continue with a trial separation for now. It's only been 4 weeks. I know she is not going to change course or see anyone but I feel like I have to try anyway,

[Atari25]

Updates

Therapy has been good - I'm truly trying to understand why this has happened. If for no other reason to help me to stop blaming myself. I keep going back in time to things I should have done or could have done, needs to stop. Therapist has been awesome.

No word directly from my wife. I have heard through my daughter she is settled in to her apartment. She went on a long weekend trip to Punta Cana last week and posted glamor shots with her friend from the pool and beach, nice thing to do right after you have left your family.  My daughter is seeing how truly narcissistic she is.

She was hit this week with another eye infection but can't blame me this time. I'm hoping the her time alone makes her realize what she left behind and how much we all did for her.

[AlvinTheMaker]

I keep going back in time to things I should have done or could have done, needs to stop.

There is no need to be too hard on yourself. Everybody makes mistakes, even when we try our best. IMHO the fact you are reviewing your past, and learning from past mistakes shouts aloud you are not the bad guy.  In a way your brain is now trying to figure out what way is up and what way is down. Rely on your instinct here.

Alvin

[Atari25]

There is no need to be too hard on yourself. Everybody makes mistakes, even when we try our best. IMHO the fact you are reviewing your past, and learning from past mistakes shouts aloud you are not the bad guy.  In a way your brain is now trying to figure out what way is up and what way is down. Rely on your instinct here.

Alvin

Thank you.

Things keep getting more bizarre and worse for my wife. OMG what is happening?? I can't make this stuff up.

Last week her eye infection came back and she was in crisis, begging my daughter to bring her to the eye doctor because she couldn't see. She was unable to work all week and was absolutely miserable.

Yesterday she got into a car wreck and is in the hospital. Passed out driving back from seeing her brother 3 hours away. Car is probably a write off and she is still in the hospital having tests done. No idea why a healthy 52 year old would faint in the car... she seems so confused. My daughter is with her. I feel like everything is spinning completely out of control. I am writing this with tears in my eyes. I want to help her....

[Treasur]

I am very sorry. I know we said things get worse before they get better with MLC folks, but this wasn’t the kind of thing we were thinking about.  i hope she recovers soon.

Of course you understandably feel worried, and doubtless longing to show up or reach out, but right now I’d be driven by your daughter’s assessment of what is actually going on and whether she thinks your (separated) wife wants to hear from you or not. At least you know that your daughter is there and can get more information. Sadly your wife has chosen to move out and fired you from the job of being a supportive husband, claiming that you ‘smother’ her, right? So, your wife will have to deal with her own messes like a single adult and imho you would be wise to do nothing much at all. This is what getting what she wanted looks like and I susoect, like many LBS early on, it would be a no win situation where you would/will be blamed for whatever you do or don’t do. Sorry.

Hope I’m wrong, but as an MLC vet I’m afraid I’m a lot more cynical than I used to be. An eye infection bad enough that you can’t see well enough to work….but you can drive 3 hours to see your brother? (Or to see someone) Drink or drugs? Sadly not uncommon with MLC folks even if it was never a habit pre-BD. Well, the truth will emerge bc it usually does. And of course obviously not your fault as you weren’t in the car and knew nothing about it….although MLCers have an amazing ability to blame others in the face of reason. But I hope it is a small useful reminder that whatever is causing your wife’s unravelling and self-destruction, it obviously has nothing at all to do with you or your marriage as both were absent 

Out of interest, your car or hers?
Any financial impact on you from her medical costs?
And how is your daughter doing with seemingly being her mother’s emergency ‘rescuer’? Bc I guess that might not be an easy thing given some of your wife’s recent behaviour and your daughter is still quite young. Do your kids live with you?

[Nas]

I have to say that very much jumped out at me also - her eye was so infected she couldn't see, but she drove 3 hours to see her brother? Unlikely both (or either) of those things are entirely true. (Also, if she was in fact driving with a severe eye infection and medically documented vision problems, her - or your - insurance company is going to have a real problem with that, so Treasur's questions on who owns the car, who insures the car are very pertinent here also...)

If she's in hospital and reported fainting while driving, they're going to do their best to figure out what caused it (and believe me, the car insurance company will want that answer even more definitively than her medical insurance will. You'd be surprised by what people will claim happened to make an accident "not their fault.")

The more you detach, the less you will find yourself feeling anguished over wanting to help her with (i.e. fix) the consequences of her own poor choices, especially when those poor choices could also lead to consequences for you (see again my reference above to which one of you the insurance company will pay out to, or deny payment to, for example).

ETA: obviously this is all with the knowledge that she’s not seriously injured and didn’t injure anyone else. Your initial response is normal, someone you care for had an accident. My comments were more about “after the fact.”

[WHY]

Probably pain meds issue cause of the eye.  Fell asleep. 

Not your circus. 

[xyzcf]

Hi, I just went back to read your initial post. As you are very aware, something has happened that has changed your wife dramatically. We can call it MLC, crisis, depression, many labels but it is pretty clear that something is wrong with her.

You were married 25 years and have children together. Love is not something that can be turned off like a tap...you are understandably worried about her.

There is no reason to cut off contact with her, no reason to withdraw totally from her. Sometimes, it helps for us to distance ourselves for our own healing, sometimes we can heal quite well even if they remain in our lives.

There are times when situations come up that require time spent together. Graduations of our children, marriages...and sometimes illness. She could have been killed in her car wreck, thankfully she will have a work up in hospital to determine what caused her to faint of pass out while driving.

You want to be with her. There is absolutely no reason why you should not be.

I see MLC as a "dis-ease"....she was not like this for 25 years.....and now, because something is affecting her, a "crisis" ,you are supposed to turn your back on her totally?

I have been with my husband for two surgeries and taken care of him post op in the last 1 1/2 years. He did not ask me to be with him, I volunteered. It was the right thing to do for me.

It doesn't change anything regarding our relationship. There are things that I do because of who I am, how I treat people, even people who have treated me terribly, especially people who have something wrong with them.

I can still grow and build my own life and heal and I have done that. But there is still room for kindness for someone I spent so many years with.

What do you want to do? You can always ask her if you can come to the hospital and if she says no, of course you need to respect that.

It's good to consider different points of views about MLC. Several LBSers I know continue to care about their spouses and what happens to them. Several maintain contact and spend time together as a family.

You do what feels right for you Atari, because every situation on this site is different and there really should not be rigid and hard set rules that every LBS must follow in order to heal.

I find the lack of compassion for the MLCer seems rather punitive. It need not be so.

[Nas]

Several LBSers I know continue to care about their spouses and what happens to them.

I would say this is true for MOST LBS. Even I care to some extent about what happens to my former husband, even if just as a fellow human being.

The extent to which LBS can remain in contact with their spouse is in large part not under LBS control. XYZ, your ex-husband texts you of his own accord and voluntarily spends time with you. If that weren't the case, you may feel differently. For many LBS, their spouse has expressed an explicit aversion to contact with the LBS.

I recently had an conversation with an artist that was thought provoking to me on many levels. The conversation included a really interesting discussion about relationships, including thoughts about marriage, divorce, choice and boundaries. Even after success and acclaim, at his (in his words) advanced age, he expressed regrets in life that really relate to not truly seeing or hearing what is instead of seeing or hearing what he wanted to be. We are allowed to ask for what we want in a relationship with another, they are allowed to tell us, and if those two things are not the same, we can only accept that. When it comes to an MLC spouse, we can hope for a change, but we can't make it happen. We lay down boundaries that we expect our spouses to honor, and, like it or not, if we view our spouses as autonomous adults and separate beings, we have to honor theirs as well when it comes to things like contact. If they don't want the LBS involved in their life, the LBS really has no choice but to respect that (this doesn't apply of course to things like joint finances and assets, just to texting, phone calls, etc). No matter how much the LBS wants to be there, we can't force ourselves upon the MLCer who - at least at the moment - doesn't want us there. It's not punitive, it's actually respecting ourselves by respecting the wishes of another. JMHO.

[Treasur]

I must admit I agree with Nas on this. We may not understand it, we may not like it but if our spouse has said, or is behaving as if, they do not want contact with us, surely that’s an issue of basic resoect? After all, everyone has the right to have their own boundaries including MLCers.

I understand Xyzcf why you often feel the need to remind people that there is a spectrum of choice available about how much contact you have, and that it is not one size fits all, or fixed in stone. That NC is not a magic wand and that the contact you have can evolve. All true and worth reminding folks about.

It is also true imho that there is a healthy limit to how often one should touch a hot stove even from compassion or concern about someone else.

However when a new LBS is reeling and an MLCer has just galloped off full of blame and bile, I’m rather more concerned about the LBS not taking on more damage than they feel they can bear than the needs of the MLCer causing the damage. I agree that, understandable though the feeling can be at times, it is not the LBS’s job to punish them. But I also think it is not the LBS’s job to soak up or sweep away the natural consequences that come from the MLCer’s choices either. If only bc that’s how adults learn and grow, LBS and MLCer alike.

If I had abandoned my h and told him he was a PoS and stolen 25k from him, it is a predictable consequence that I might find myself without his support in hospital. As it was, I didn’t make those choices but still found myself alone when I was seriously ill lol.  Didn’t feel very fair tbh, but I just had to deal with that like a grown up does….so my compassion is disproportionately weighted towards LBS here. Who after all are the ones who come here often deeply distressed and often the ones also left carrying all the responsibilities that the MLCer left behind regardless of that distress.

I don’t need to hate or punish any MLCer, including my former h, in order to prioritise my compassion for the needs of an LBS particularly a relatively new one. And I am often conscious posting here, as I’m sure you are too, that the world looks very different years on than it did in the first year or so post BD.
Jmo.

[Atari25]

I am very sorry. I know we said things get worse before they get better with MLC folks, but this wasn’t the kind of thing we were thinking about.  i hope she recovers soon.

Of course you understandably feel worried, and doubtless longing to show up or reach out, but right now I’d be driven by your daughter’s assessment of what is actually going on and whether she thinks your (separated) wife wants to hear from you or not. At least you know that your daughter is there and can get more information. Sadly your wife has chosen to move out and fired you from the job of being a supportive husband, claiming that you ‘smother’ her, right? So, your wife will have to deal with her own messes like a single adult and imho you would be wise to do nothing much at all. This is what getting what she wanted looks like and I susoect, like many LBS early on, it would be a no win situation where you would/will be blamed for whatever you do or don’t do. Sorry.

Hope I’m wrong, but as an MLC vet I’m afraid I’m a lot more cynical than I used to be. An eye infection bad enough that you can’t see well enough to work….but you can drive 3 hours to see your brother? (Or to see someone) Drink or drugs? Sadly not uncommon with MLC folks even if it was never a habit pre-BD. Well, the truth will emerge bc it usually does. And of course obviously not your fault as you weren’t in the car and knew nothing about it….although MLCers have an amazing ability to blame others in the face of reason. But I hope it is a small useful reminder that whatever is causing your wife’s unravelling and self-destruction, it obviously has nothing at all to do with you or your marriage as both were absent 

Out of interest, your car or hers?
Any financial impact on you from her medical costs?
And how is your daughter doing with seemingly being her mother’s emergency ‘rescuer’? Bc I guess that might not be an easy thing given some of your wife’s recent behaviour and your daughter is still quite young. Do your kids live with you?

Sorry I was probably not clear. The eye infection was clear before she drove. She was ok to drive.

She was only in the hospital for a few hours to get checked over. Everything came back negative so she was released. It's her car but it's probably getting written off so it's going to be expensive to get a new car. I don't know what to do - she needs a car but she can't afford it on her own. It's going to be a BIG  headache.

Daughter lives with me, she is 23. It's her mom - she is going to help her, I will never fault her for that!

[Treasur]

Of course you wouldn’t fault your daughter for wanting to support her mum. I imagine both your kids are going through their own process of figuring out the changing relationships in this new situation.

Does it have to be your headache? Tbh I would let your wife figure out her own transport solution. If she needs your help, she can ask for it and you can decide then. Until then, I’d hold back and respect her wish to live as a single independent woman.

[Atari25]

Hi, I just went back to read your initial post. As you are very aware, something has happened that has changed your wife dramatically. We can call it MLC, crisis, depression, many labels but it is pretty clear that something is wrong with her.

You were married 25 years and have children together. Love is not something that can be turned off like a tap...you are understandably worried about her.

There is no reason to cut off contact with her, no reason to withdraw totally from her. Sometimes, it helps for us to distance ourselves for our own healing, sometimes we can heal quite well even if they remain in our lives.

There are times when situations come up that require time spent together. Graduations of our children, marriages...and sometimes illness. She could have been killed in her car wreck, thankfully she will have a work up in hospital to determine what caused her to faint of pass out while driving.

You want to be with her. There is absolutely no reason why you should not be.

I see MLC as a "dis-ease"....she was not like this for 25 years.....and now, because something is affecting her, a "crisis" ,you are supposed to turn your back on her totally?

I have been with my husband for two surgeries and taken care of him post op in the last 1 1/2 years. He did not ask me to be with him, I volunteered. It was the right thing to do for me.

It doesn't change anything regarding our relationship. There are things that I do because of who I am, how I treat people, even people who have treated me terribly, especially people who have something wrong with them.

I can still grow and build my own life and heal and I have done that. But there is still room for kindness for someone I spent so many years with.

What do you want to do? You can always ask her if you can come to the hospital and if she says no, of course you need to respect that.

It's good to consider different points of views about MLC. Several LBSers I know continue to care about their spouses and what happens to them. Several maintain contact and spend time together as a family.

You do what feels right for you Atari, because every situation on this site is different and there really should not be rigid and hard set rules that every LBS must follow in order to heal.

I find the lack of compassion for the MLCer seems rather punitive. It need not be so.

Thank you for your post. I truly appreciate it.

I worry about my wife. She seems scared and confused but I can't help her. I offered to come but she didn't want that and I respect that.

I still hope she comes home one day but we aren't there and I don't know if we ever will be but like you, Like you I never stopped caring. 28 years together I can't stop, I don't know how.

[Atari25]

Does it have to be your headache? Tbh I would let your wife figure out her own transport solution. If she needs your help, she can ask for it and you can decide then. Until then, I’d hold back and respect her wish to live as a single independent woman.

No matter how much the LBS wants to be there, we can't force ourselves upon the MLCer who - at least at the moment - doesn't want us there. It's not punitive, it's actually respecting ourselves by respecting the wishes of another. JMHO.

100%. She doesn't want me there. She does tell my daughter "I don't want to burden him". I suspect that is cover though.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Hi Atari25,

There is never a need to stop caring, never a need to stop loving. Even many of us who are no longer standing and have moved on life still care and love.

But what matters is how you do it.  The way you did express care and love during happy marriage is now a no-no. What you need now is a new way that works in this current situation.

This is more about challenging your own (old) inner beliefs than about her changing what she now is. Exploring your own thinking is important  part of your healing, growing and moving on. And be assured, when you reach the end of your journey, you will still love and care.

Alvin

[xyzcf]

I worry about my wife. She seems scared and confused but I can't help her. I offered to come but she didn't want that and I respect that.

Yes, you are right to respect her wishes. I stated in my previous post to you :

"What do you want to do? You can always ask her if you can come to the hospital and if she says no, of course you need to respect that.".

You are right, you can't help her.  I found this interesting what she said to your daughter

She doesn't want me there. She does tell my daughter "I don't want to burden him". I suspect that is cover though.

Glad to know that her tests came back "normal" and there isn't some serious issue going on that would cause her to faint.

I still hope she comes home one day but we aren't there and I don't know if we ever will be but like you, Like you I never stopped caring. 28 years together I can't stop, I don't know how.

Over the years there have been many posts made of how the MLCer feels like they have to leave or they will die. We don't get it, our marriages seemed very strong and loving and we were very shocked when they changed so drastically seemingly overnight. And as we often say "this is not about you and not about your marriage". We are the collateral damage and there is much we must do to rebuild our shattered selves.

Early on, when I read RCR's articles, I was struck by her article on agape and unconditional love.

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_agape.html

It seemed impossible to me at the time and the world kept telling me to cut ties with him, find someone new, he did not deserve me etc, etc. But on Heros Spouse, there was a different message that supported the concept of agape and unconditional love as well as forgiveness. The idea being that the LBSer would benefit from these things.

My faith also teaches me to "love"...simple but also so very hard to do.

The LBSer does get to choose. I choose to keep communication open and that has worked out well for me and my family.

I wish to remind posters that this is Atari's thread and that each one of us have something important to relate to him as well as to other posters. Our ideas are varied and it is best to let the individual LBSer come to their own conclusion regarding how they want to relate to their MLCer.

I am not going to justify my remarks and shall continue to express what I believe is true. If you wish to debate this issue further, then by all means start a new thread for a debate. No one poster's ideas are more important than any other's.

[Atari25]

It looks like the car will likely be written off and there will be a cash settlement from the insurance company coming. I don't know what she is going to do, she needs a car and she cannot afford big monthly payments. I feel like I should offer to help but my daughter says no.

Just another issue to deal with. I'm thankful she is ok of course, that is the most important thing but... Ug.

This is more about challenging your own (old) inner beliefs than about her changing what she now is. Exploring your own thinking is important  part of your healing, growing and moving on. And be assured, when you reach the end of your journey, you will still love and care.

Thanks Alvin. Wise words.

[Atari25]

I worry about my wife. She seems scared and confused but I can't help her. I offered to come but she didn't want that and I respect that.

Yes, you are right to respect her wishes. I stated in my previous post to you :

"What do you want to do? You can always ask her if you can come to the hospital and if she says no, of course you need to respect that.".

You are right, you can't help her.  I found this interesting what she said to your daughter

She doesn't want me there. She does tell my daughter "I don't want to burden him". I suspect that is cover though.

Glad to know that her tests came back "normal" and there isn't some serious issue going on that would cause her to faint.

I still hope she comes home one day but we aren't there and I don't know if we ever will be but like you, Like you I never stopped caring. 28 years together I can't stop, I don't know how.

Over the years there have been many posts made of how the MLCer feels like they have to leave or they will die. We don't get it, our marriages seemed very strong and loving and we were very shocked when they changed so drastically seemingly overnight. And as we often say "this is not about you and not about your marriage". We are the collateral damage and there is much we must do to rebuild our shattered selves.

Early on, when I read RCR's articles, I was struck by her article on agape and unconditional love.

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_agape.html

It seemed impossible to me at the time and the world kept telling me to cut ties with him, find someone new, he did not deserve me etc, etc. But on Heros Spouse, there was a different message that supported the concept of agape and unconditional love as well as forgiveness. The idea being that the LBSer would benefit from these things.

My faith also teaches me to "love"...simple but also so very hard to do.

The LBSer does get to choose. I choose to keep communication open and that has worked out well for me and my family.

I wish to remind posters that this is Atari's thread and that each one of us have something important to relate to him as well as to other posters. Our ideas are varied and it is best to let the individual LBSer come to their own conclusion regarding how they want to relate to their MLCer.

I am not going to justify my remarks and shall continue to express what I believe is true. If you wish to debate this issue further, then by all means start a new thread for a debate. No one poster's ideas are more important than any other's.

I'm not an overly religious person but I de believe very much in unconditional love and caring. She probably doesn't deserve it but she has never been mean to me or played games. She is very clearly confused and in mental crisis - I feel helpless. I have not given up on her yet though I know the road back if it goes that way is a long one.

Most of my friends think I should just dump her and move on. I just can't get there, at least not yet.

[Atari25]

My daughter came home yesterday and we lay in bed together talking about the events of the past 3 days. The accident story is weird and her reaction, following actions and emotional state are all over the place. My wife is mentally unstable, going from thankful, to scared, to delusional, to depressed all in 10 minutes. MLC is still strong and alive! I told me daughter to leave alone now and take care of herself. It's too much and she is dragging her down now.

I feel like there are more shoes to drop in the weeks ahead but today - all seems quiet and she is back to work tonight.

Her car is likely being written off and we will get a check from the insurance company, I doubt she can afford a new car but apparently she is shopping around for one now. I feel like I should help her out here. Should I offer? My daughter says no but she needs to get to work.... UG!

 

[xyzcf]

My wife is mentally unstable, going from thankful, to scared, to delusional, to depressed all in 10 minutes.

Before I found Heros Spouse, I used the word "flipping". Here the word "cycling" is used. It is the most bizarre thing to see. One day he would tell me something and sometimes even an hour later, he'd look at me as though I was from another planet when I would bring the topic up again. Makes it very hard for the LBSer to stay grounded at all.

Our kids, no matter what their ages are impacted greatly by all this as well. On top of our own hurt, we see them confused and hurting and it is a good thing that your daughter feels she can talk to you about what she is experiencing.

AS for helping her find a car, some people will say that you should not...that this is what she chooses. She might not like any suggestions you make...if she were to ask you and you were willing, then you might wish to help her. I think that unless she asks for your help, just let her be.

For me, there is a difference between my main goal of helping to maintain some sort of family and perhaps helping him if he was ill. The rest of his life is his to live.

I found on the other hand it hard for me to not ask for help with things..because he was very capable with fixing things and understanding the mechanics of stuff. But I became surprisingly knowledgeable about many things that I had previously not been responsible for. Lots of goggle and asking friends for some advice on some big stuff that happened to my house.

I feel like there are more shoes to drop in the weeks ahead

The uncertainty is difficult and our minds make up all kinds of stories of what may of may not happen. Plus, initially anyway, there was such emptiness because I did not know people here or have any family so it was hard to fill up my time. Bit by bit, I developed new interests and friendships to fill in the empty times.

[Biscuit]

If you really feel you want to offer then I might say, “do you want a hand with all the car business?” - if she says no or monsters about being capable of sorting it herself then you know not to bother again.

Others might suggest to let her get on with it herself.

[Atari25]

Our kids, no matter what their ages are impacted greatly by all this as well. On top of our own hurt, we see them confused and hurting and it is a good thing that your daughter feels she can talk to you about what she is experiencing.

AS for helping her find a car, some people will say that you should not...that this is what she chooses. She might not like any suggestions you make...if she were to ask you and you were willing, then you might wish to help her. I think that unless she asks for your help, just let her be.

For me, there is a difference between my main goal of helping to maintain some sort of family and perhaps helping him if he was ill. The rest of his life is his to live.

I found on the other hand it hard for me to not ask for help with things..because he was very capable with fixing things and understanding the mechanics of stuff. But I became surprisingly knowledgeable about many things that I had previously not been responsible for. Lots of goggle and asking friends for some advice on some big stuff that happened to my house.

I think my wife can buy a car ok but I know she doesn't have a ton of money and she doesn't make a lot. I have considered offering a few thousand but because I have been following no contact for the most part, will this ruin the progress I have made with her. Will she just  think she can come back for more money? Will she appreciate it at all? I don't know.

My wife has been nicer to me lately. I feel like this offer to help could maybe start to turn things.. Maybe I'm totally dreaming, I don't know.

I'm glad you were able to do things on your own and find new friends and hobbies. That's amazing. 😊

[Atari25]

If you really feel you want to offer then I might say, “do you want a hand with all the car business?” - if she says no or monsters about being capable of sorting it herself then you know not to bother again.

Others might suggest to let her get on with it herself.

That's not a bad way of phrasing it, thank you! Not saying too much but testing her reaction buy offering a hand.

[xyzcf]

She will probably never be who she was I accept that but I want her to eventually get through what she is going through and come back. She loved me for 25 year and I know that love is still there.

Again no guarantee I know. I can't give up on her yet.

I was told by my therapist that if I could get her in to a therapist it would likely shorten the MLC or whatever she is going through. She has seemed more open to the idea when talking to my daughter. I realize it's a long haul and no guarantee but I feel like it gives me hope. Maybe I'm fooling myself, I don't know.

Good morning Atari. I moved a couple of your posts  onto your own thread to respond to.

There is not any diagnostic criteria to determine if someone is having a crisis or not. There are varying degrees of the intensity of the crisis and no way of knowing how "severe" our spouse's will be. There are similarities in the history and the literature supports the behaviours and actions that we term MLC.

There is also our own gut feeling that something is wrong. I think we could also agree that this is not about you and not about your marriage.

Love has so many definitions and it's not as cut and dried that if they left us, then they must not love us or that we must try to "detach".  I think detach means different things to people as well. My own example is that I would consider myself detached, but I prefer to use the word accept that he is no longer the person I knew for 35 years. I loved the person he was, this one, not so much.

Many here try so hard to detach, some are upset because they do not feel that they are detached enough, or have not detached fast enough..or that they must work harder to detach. What does it mean to each of us, this word detachment?

In my own story, I think the trauma that happened to me when his crisis struck and all the "stuff" following has left me with some very deep wounds and deep feelings about our marriage and family.  I continue to experience the effects of this trauma, even though I have done the "work". And the effects are no where near as acute as in the early years.

Although the stories here do not indicate that therapy has helped the MLCer, as I said at the beginning, no one really knows if this is a correct "diagnosis" or not. If your wife is willing to go, a therapist might help her to uncover her past, and deal with her own trauma. And that would be good for her and probably her relationship with her kids and you.

I can't give up on her yet

This is resonating with me...trying to put into words what I am feeling when I read that statement, because I do understand it.....he gave up on me, he gave up on us and our family. This rejection and abandonment isn't something that we can easily cope with. People use different methods to decrease the pain caused by the rejection and abandonment, no one way is "correct" if it fits our beliefs and values......

Heartsblessing used to say that "if there is love, there is hope" yet we know that we cannot love them back, nor love them into being healed.....

I do wish to offer you some encouragement, because often people will suggest things that they believe to be true that are not true for your story.

I don't believe that "hope" is a bad thing. You build your own life, you don't interfere in her journey. This is the hard part as throughout our marriages, we always helped one another to get to that next place...and we have to learn that this is not our role anymore.

The different ideas that are expressed here are helpful to us. I am thinking, we have deep feelings and understanding of crisis and our spouses...and sometimes it is hard to see another's point of view. We continue to explore and change our own minds and hearts, it's our journey as well.

[marvin4242]

Following xyzcf’s lead I am responding here

She will probably never be who she was I accept that but I want her to eventually get through what she is going through and come back. She loved me for 25 year and I know that love is still there.

Again no guarantee I know. I can't give up on her yet.

Thanks for clearly stating that. So how can you see yourself doing this while you are not frozen, nor tied to her whirlwind, nor depending on her words or actions to be ok in the mean time?

[Treasur]

Hope can be a tricky thing for a lot of LBS; you may want to Google the Stockdale Paradox. The gist of it is that hope can be a thing that sustains us and, if we hang our hope hat too much on specific fixed outcomes, and then those do not happen the way we wish, it can also be a thing that drains us.

It takes most of us a little while to find a balance that works for us, to hope in a way that sustains us rather than drains us.

From what you say, it sounds as if it costs you nothing much to allow your wife to use your work insurance to cover the therapy costs if she chooses to do so. Seems entirely reasonable to me that you would want to facilitate that open door for her, if only as the mother of your children let alone as someone you have shared your life with for so long. Very normal that you feel how you feel. Of course, you can’t make her go through that door or even do the work needed on the other side of the door.

Good potential example perhaps of how adjusting one’s hope might work….hope that she does, and that it is helpful to her, wish her well but try to unhook from any expectation that she will, judgement about what it means if she doesn’t  or hopes for what it might mean for your marriage. Bc those things are unknowns and many of them outwith your control, aren’t they? Investing too much of your hope in those kinds of things can create a bit of a crash and burn cycle….a sort of conditional hope if that makes sense…which ironically can beat the hope stuffing out of us if it goes on for too long.

Most of us learned with time and a few wallops to do hope a little differently than pre BD. Or to hope for different kinds of things perhaps. A sunny day. Time with other people who love you. That this time too shall pass. That you will not always feel how you feel today. That there is a good life in the other side of this s$itshow even if you can’t see it yet. A sense of peace again. There are plenty of things one can choose to hope for, or have faith in, even if the details are a bit fuzzy or they seem really small in the midst of chaos. Sometimes good enough is good enough to get us through that day, that week, that month. Very personal kind of unpicking, I think, not at all a one size fits all.

And finding hope things that are not hostage to anyone else’s emotions or choices, hopes that can be realised in more than one way perhaps. Which is why Marvin’s questions might be really useful 

[Atari25]

Thanks for clearly stating that. So how can you see yourself doing this while you are not frozen, nor tied to her whirlwind, nor depending on her words or actions to be ok in the mean time?

I have my kids, my neighbors and my family and I am keeping busy and enjoy their company. Is that not enough? I don't know I am asking?

Hope can be a tricky thing for a lot of LBS; you may want to Google the Stockdale Paradox. The gist of it is that hope can be a thing that sustains us and, if we hang our hope hat too much on specific fixed outcomes, and then those do not happen the way we wish, it can also be a thing that drains us.

It takes most of us a little while to find a balance that works for us, to hope in a way that sustains us rather than drains us.

From what you say, it sounds as if it costs you nothing much to allow your wife to use your work insurance to cover the therapy costs if she chooses to do so. Seems entirely reasonable to me that you would want to facilitate that open door for her, if only as the mother of your children let alone as someone you have shared your life with for so long. Very normal that you feel how you feel. Of course, you can’t make her go through that door or even do the work needed on the other side of the door.

Good potential example perhaps of how adjusting one’s hope might work….hope that she does, and that it is helpful to her, wish her well but try to unhook from any expectation that she will, judgement about what it means if she doesn’t  or hopes for what it might mean for your marriage. Bc those things are unknowns and many of them outwith your control, aren’t they? Investing too much of your hope in those kinds of things can create a bit of a crash and burn cycle….a sort of conditional hope if that makes sense…which ironically can beat the hope stuffing out of us if it goes on for too long.

Most of us learned with time and a few wallops to do hope a little differently than pre BD. Or to hope for different kinds of things perhaps. A sunny day. Time with other people who love you. That this time too shall pass. That you will not always feel how you feel today. That there is a good life in the other side of this s$itshow even if you can’t see it yet. A sense of peace again. There are plenty of things one can choose to hope for, or have faith in, even if the details are a bit fuzzy or they seem really small in the midst of chaos. Sometimes good enough is good enough to get us through that day, that week, that month. Very personal kind of unpicking, I think, not at all a one size fits all.

And finding hope things that are not hostage to anyone else’s emotions or choices, hopes that can be realised in more than one way perhaps. Which is why Marvin’s questions might be really useful 

I understand what you are saying. Hope is probably trickier than I think it is, but I can't let go of hope yet. I am doing my best to live life but the house is full of my wife's memories, clothes and things she didn't take. Do I remove all those things and pack it in after 3 months? I don't feel like I can yet.

I am not investing much time in "hope" or a plan. I am going to therapy and I do a lot of reading here and elsewhere though. It's therapeutic for sure. For her own sake my wife needs to deal with her daemons and with some encouragement from the kids I think she may.

You gave me some thing to think about though, appreciate it.

[Atari25]

Good morning Atari. I moved a couple of your posts  onto your own thread to respond to.

There is not any diagnostic criteria to determine if someone is having a crisis or not. There are varying degrees of the intensity of the crisis and no way of knowing how "severe" our spouse's will be. There are similarities in the history and the literature supports the behaviours and actions that we term MLC.

There is also our own gut feeling that something is wrong. I think we could also agree that this is not about you and not about your marriage.

Love has so many definitions and it's not as cut and dried that if they left us, then they must not love us or that we must try to "detach".  I think detach means different things to people as well. My own example is that I would consider myself detached, but I prefer to use the word accept that he is no longer the person I knew for 35 years. I loved the person he was, this one, not so much.

Many here try so hard to detach, some are upset because they do not feel that they are detached enough, or have not detached fast enough..or that they must work harder to detach. What does it mean to each of us, this word detachment?

In my own story, I think the trauma that happened to me when his crisis struck and all the "stuff" following has left me with some very deep wounds and deep feelings about our marriage and family.  I continue to experience the effects of this trauma, even though I have done the "work". And the effects are no where near as acute as in the early years.

Although the stories here do not indicate that therapy has helped the MLCer, as I said at the beginning, no one really knows if this is a correct "diagnosis" or not. If your wife is willing to go, a therapist might help her to uncover her past, and deal with her own trauma. And that would be good for her and probably her relationship with her kids and you.

Therapy may not help I agree. It seems like time and therapy are the only ways people get through a MLC and I was advised I have nothing to lose by trying to get my wife to go. There is childhood trauma she has never dealt with, I realize getting her to deal with it will not be easy, I do not know how severe the trauma is .

Personally I have not been left with deep wounds. Some of the words she used hurt a lot but I see my wife very clearly as someone who is not well. My confidence in that view has only gotten stronger as time has past. 

This is resonating with me...trying to put into words what I am feeling when I read that statement, because I do understand it.....he gave up on me, he gave up on us and our family. This rejection and abandonment isn't something that we can easily cope with. People use different methods to decrease the pain caused by the rejection and abandonment, no one way is "correct" if it fits our beliefs and values......

Heartsblessing used to say that "if there is love, there is hope" yet we know that we cannot love them back, nor love them into being healed.....

I do wish to offer you some encouragement, because often people will suggest things that they believe to be true that are not true for your story.

I don't believe that "hope" is a bad thing. You build your own life, you don't interfere in her journey. This is the hard part as throughout our marriages, we always helped one another to get to that next place...and we have to learn that this is not our role anymore.

The different ideas that are expressed here are helpful to us. I am thinking, we have deep feelings and understanding of crisis and our spouses...and sometimes it is hard to see another's point of view. We continue to explore and change our own minds and hearts, it's our journey as well.

I appreciate your post thank you. I truly appreciate everyone's views.

I do plan to continue to build a new life with hope.  I still live feeling a great sense of loss and emptiness. I assume time will make it easier, it has already.

I truly believe there is still love but someone told me you can not live in fear and love at the same time, that resonated with me. I think my wife is living in fear, I can see it in her eyes and she ran from it.

[dogwalker]

Hi Atari25
Im not here very often now but can relate to your situation. My story "help do I have a MLCER?" may give you hope for the future and if nothing else help pass a few evenings.  My journey started back in 2015 and like you we had been married for 25 years. Today she is home and we have been together for 3 years now(nevery did get a purple sticker on my story :-) ). Life is good and full hence I'm seldom here now. The things I learnt were patience and build your own life waiting is good if its for you but don't just wait use the time to live, learn and build yourself into a better person.
Take very good care of yourself and the very best of luck to you on your new journey. Its a cr&p one but aim to get something good from it. Its took me 8 years so don't beat yourself up if you dont get it first time or second or a third..
Cheers DW

[UrsaMajor]

Today she is home and we have been together for 3 years now(never did get a purple sticker on my story :-) ). Life is good and full hence I'm seldom here now. <...snip...>
Cheers DW

You didn't get a purple icon because your last update was in February.... of 2022!

Come back, start a new thread, fill us in, and I'll make sure you have a purple Icon.....

[dogwalker]

No offence ever intended my friend. Totally down to me
But yes I will do that update.
DW

[Atari25]

Hi Atari25
Im not here very often now but can relate to your situation. My story "help do I have a MLCER?" may give you hope for the future and if nothing else help pass a few evenings.  My journey started back in 2015 and like you we had been married for 25 years. Today she is home and we have been together for 3 years now(nevery did get a purple sticker on my story :-) ). Life is good and full hence I'm seldom here now. The things I learnt were patience and build your own life waiting is good if its for you but don't just wait use the time to live, learn and build yourself into a better person.
Take very good care of yourself and the very best of luck to you on your new journey. Its a cr&p one but aim to get something good from it. Its took me 8 years so don't beat yourself up if you dont get it first time or second or a third..
Cheers DW

Thank you so much for the encouragement @dogwalker. I truly appreciate it.

If you ever have time I would love to hear your story and how it all went. It's hard to imagine waiting 8 years if I understood you correctly but I'm always happy to hear about success stories.

[Atari25]

Insurance has still not paid out for my wife's car but our rental coverage ended so she leased a new car Thursday. She bought a much more expensive car that she frankly can't afford but I said nothing.  I still don't understand what caused her chest pains and eventual fainting behind the wheel which caused the accident. Everything is weird and a mystery with her these days. 

Easter came and went and my son brought up the point that "it was the first holiday last year that mom decided not to participate in". He is right. She did nothing for Easter, she used to always decorate and buy the candy and Easter lilies etc.  I quickly went out and got some candy for the kids and organized an Easter dinner last year to cover but the kids saw that I did it all. I had no idea at the time why she did nothing - had no idea what was to come!

It's been 3 months now since my wife walked out the door. Kids are older (19/23) but it's still pretty depressing that their mother is just gone. We didn't hear from her all weekend. No idea what she is doing or where she is. I found out she asked our son randomly to go to Florida for Easter weekend to play golf a couple of weeks ago, he said no thanks on his own. Also bizarre. It's always a family weekend to see grandmother, aunt and cousins so it's not like he would want to be away from everyone.

So hard to understand how she is ok living alone in an apartment in another city while we all go on as a family. I found it really tuff this holiday weekend.  I can't imagine how messed up she must be to continue to live away from us. 

[STP]

So hard to understand how she is ok living alone in an apartment in another city while we all go on as a family. I found it really tuff this holiday weekend.  I can't imagine how messed up she must be to continue to live away from us. 

Hi,
There's a very good chance of another man in her life. It would be her most guarded secret. Her mind is in the fog clouding her judgement. Shes in anguish and pleasure seeking. She doesn't know what she wants, just what she doesn't want ... which is you and the old life. Its not even her choice. She's been taken over  by the MLC and there's nothing you can really do to help her through it but keep to the 180. Time and space is your friend. Best to find your happiness without her and behave like a family of three. It is a very long and slow process and you can and will drive yourself crazy. I went through all this 14 years ago. Saved my marriage for another 6 years and she ultimately ended it and married the other man. I'll be divorced 8 years in 2024 and couldn't be happier. My life's a literal party now.

There's a ton of great advice on this board. Keep reading and journaling. and remember you are in charge of your happiness.

[Atari25]

So hard to understand how she is ok living alone in an apartment in another city while we all go on as a family. I found it really tuff this holiday weekend.  I can't imagine how messed up she must be to continue to live away from us. 

Hi,
There's a very good chance of another man in her life. It would be her most guarded secret. Her mind is in the fog clouding her judgement. Shes in anguish and pleasure seeking. She doesn't know what she wants, just what she doesn't want ... which is you and the old life. Its not even her choice. She's been taken over  by the MLC and there's nothing you can really do to help her through it but keep to the 180. Time and space is your friend. Best to find your happiness without her and behave like a family of three. It is a very long and slow process and you can and will drive yourself crazy. I went through all this 14 years ago. Saved my marriage for another 6 years and she ultimately ended it and married the other man. I'll be divorced 8 years in 2024 and couldn't be happier. My life's a literal party now.

There's a ton of great advice on this board. Keep reading and journaling. and remember you are in charge of your happiness.

Interestingly she texted me this morning wants to talk tonight so she is coming over. I have not actually seen her in person for over 3 months now. My anxiety levels are through the roof as I don't know what she is going to say to me. Another man? Wants a formal separation now? No idea.  Horrible feeling right now but I realize we should talk at some point. I'm almost certain she is not in a place where she wants to work on our marriage so I'm guessing it's not going to be good news. No matter what I need to stay calm I know that....

I appreciate your thoughts STP - She could very well be with another guy. I know she parties a lot with her golf friends, who knows what's happening there.

[Treasur]

I’m sorry for that shot of anxiety. Horrible feeling, isn’t it? Never felt anything like it before BD but fortunately it’s a long time since I’ve felt anything like it since too.

Try to do something, ideally physical, to get the anxiety out of your body. Go for a run, a long walk, dance in the kitchen - doesn’t matter, just give your system a way to vent it. As my gran used to say, better out than in!

And keep your expectations minimal, one way or the other. Maybe even assign a time limit like 30 mins to hear her out and then have someplace else you have to be or something else you have to do. Doesn’t have to be the truth but it will give you a small sense of control and time to breathe after she says whatever she wants to say. Fwiw - can’t remember many of these ‘I’m coming round to talk’ moments (and lots of us LBS had them and felt how you feel) being particularly enlightening. Or even as big a deal as your nervous system thinks lol. Sometimes it is….more often it’s just more of the same or bc they want something from you.

So, easily covered in 30 minutes if she’s talking and you’re just listening, and then you have already built in a ‘time to think about what you said’ space afterwards. Bc hyper vigil isn’t nervous systems make us a bit prone to reacting before we think so it’s good to give yourself time and reasonable to require it. That will be as true if it is some big announcement on her part, positive or negative from your PoV, or if it is just a dollop of sadz she is wanting you to mop up or a demand for money or for you to fix some other problem she doesn’t like about the current situation. Hear her out, don’t react at the time, say ‘thanks for telling me x, I’ll take a bit of time to think about it and get back to you in a few days but I have to go now’ and show her the door.

[Atari25]

I’m sorry for that shot of anxiety. Horrible feeling, isn’t it? Never felt anything like it before BD but fortunately it’s a long time since I’ve felt anything like it since too.

Try to do something, ideally physical, to get the anxiety out of your body. Go for a run, a long walk, dance in the kitchen - doesn’t matter, just give your system a way to vent it. As my gran used to say, better out than in!

I took your advice and went for a walk in the mall before I came home to see her. It's definitely helped a little. Good idea!

So as expected she dropped the legal separation bomb.

She said this is what she wanted but I asked her if this is really what she wanted and that she was happy. She then said 3 times "I'm trying to be happy". A lot of strange things came out of her but that struck me,  She did expand on this thought and said "I'm happy sometimes and not happy other times - I'm trying". I said again she should go see a therapist - maybe I shouldn't have but she has a lot unresolved issues from childhood and beyond. A lot of tears.  She actually didn't have a ton to say, only that this separation "had been a long time coming" and that "she was sorry". I told her to do what she thought she had to and that while the door is open, she had to want to come back and I know she is not there.

When she left she was in full tears and she gave me the tightest hug I have had in years. I was really taken back. So hard to read her and so much confusion in her thoughts. I am 99% sure her single friends are prompting her to push forward with legal separation - then divorce but there is nothing I can do to stop it all if it's coming. You have to wait one year before filing for divorce in Canada. I just said ok to everything... I guess I now wait for the next shoe to drop.

[Treasur]

Glad the walk helped.
Have you already taken legal advice about what a legal separation means in practice and requires from you? If not, that’s probably a priority. Getting the info gives you time to think about it and consider how you want to tackle that.
I’m sorry bc I know it wasn’t what you wanted to hear but you may find that it breaks the sense of limbo too. 

I wouldn’t ascribe too much into her tears or hugs tbh. MLC or not, these kinds of conversations are emotional for everyone involved to some degree, right? Keep reminding yourself to focus on her feet not her mouth.

[STP]

I wouldn’t ascribe too much into her tears or hugs tbh. MLC or not, these kinds of conversations are emotional for everyone involved to some degree, right?

So right Treasur. Just remember Atari25 she's in a lot of confusion/pain and there's nothing you can do about it. She is having to justify everything in her mind and to everyone. She doesn't want to hurt you, she just will, as her needs come first and you're preventing her from her unhindered joy... blame shifting of course. I would be shocked if there wasn't another man in the picture. Having you step aside (unwillingly or not) frees her self-judgement on herself to freely pursue another relationship. Man, I feel bad for you. It's such a long process. Just keep doing what makes YOU happy. Gotta act like she doesn't exist. And of course don't reach out to her. Let her initiate all conversations. Gotta start living like you were before you met her. Sad but true. Keep exercising and eating. I lost 40 lbs on the anxiety back then.

[Atari25]

Glad the walk helped.
Have you already taken legal advice about what a legal separation means in practice and requires from you? If not, that’s probably a priority. Getting the info gives you time to think about it and consider how you want to tackle that.

I wouldn’t ascribe too much into her tears or hugs tbh. MLC or not, these kinds of conversations are emotional for everyone involved to some degree, right? Keep reminding yourself to focus on her feet not her mouth.

Please tell me more about the feet? I don't know about this. Or do you mean her leaving the house?

I have consulted with a lawyer but I am not taking any action until I hear from her. I have told the kids I am not making any moves but if she wants to leave then there is nothing I can do.

So right Treasur. Just remember Atari25 she's in a lot of confusion/pain and there's nothing you can do about it. She is having to justify everything in her mind and to everyone. She doesn't want to hurt you, she just will, as her needs come first and you're preventing her from her unhindered joy... blame shifting of course. I would be shocked if there wasn't another man in the picture. Having you step aside (unwillingly or not) frees her self-judgement on herself to freely pursue another relationship. Man, I feel bad for you. It's such a long process. Just keep doing what makes YOU happy. Gotta act like she doesn't exist. And of course don't reach out to her. Let her initiate all conversations. Gotta start living like you were before you met her. Sad but true. Keep exercising and eating. I lost 40 lbs on the anxiety back then.

Thanks STP. I don't think there is another man but there could be, no way of me knowing. Maybe I don't want to know right now.

I never reach out to her ever. I always let he contact me. That's what I was advised to do by friends. Exercise and keeping busy are my priority. Gym is my backup when I have nothing on. Great place to hang when I'm alone. How did you lose so much weight? Or was it the anxiety?

My son is coming back into town for the summer this week - it will be so great to have him here.

[forthetrees]

Feet = actions, mouth = words.

[Atari25]

Update - After almost 5 months of near silence my wife has retained a mediation lawyer and is starting legal separation. In Ontario you can not divorce until one year after you have separated so she is going for the assets now.  I was hoping no contact would give her the time she needed. I guess I was foolishly thinking she was reconsidering her actions even though there was no reason to believe that would happen.

I am so upset even though I knew this could happen any time. Where did my loving wife go?      So hard to understand.

Has anyone here gone through simple mediation and any tips or thoughts?

[UrsaMajor]

Tips? Get legal representation ASAP and protect yourself. When an MLC'er decides to go into shark mode, they go for anything and everything they can think of, whether it is legal or realistic or not.

From here on out.....

[Tailspin]

Tips? Get legal representation ASAP and protect yourself. When an MLC'er decides to go into shark mode, they go for anything and everything they can think of, whether it is legal or realistic or not.

From here on out.....

Amen to that.  My wife filed and wanted everything and full custody.  She also tried to claim previous 401Ks of mine that she wasn't entitled too. 

[Atari25]

Tips? Get legal representation ASAP and protect yourself. When an MLC'er decides to go into shark mode, they go for anything and everything they can think of, whether it is legal or realistic or not.

My daughter (24) had a huge fight with my wife. She backed off and is no longer using that lawyer.

I have a lawyer ready to go but she backed but she has agreed to a mediator and says all she wants is 1/2 the house and some spousal support. We shall see what happens after the first meeting between the 3 of us. I'm not particularly optimistic but my wife also seems like she is in a daze and doesn't seem to understand the difference between a lawyers and mediators. I thought she had friends helping her but I don't think that's the case.

[Atari25]

Tips? Get legal representation ASAP and protect yourself. When an MLC'er decides to go into shark mode, they go for anything and everything they can think of, whether it is legal or realistic or not.

My daughter (24) had a huge fight with my wife - her decision because she is very protective of me. Wife backed off and is no longer using that lawyer.

I have a lawyer ready to go but she  she has agreed to a mediator and says all she wants is 1/2 the house and some spousal support. We shall see what happens after the first meeting between the 3 of us. I'm not particularly optimistic but my wife also seems like she is in a daze and doesn't seem to understand the difference between a lawyers and mediators. I thought she had friends helping her but I don't think that's the case.

[Atari25]

So things have settled down though wife is still drinking, partying and is in full blown MLC. Mediation was eventually agreed upon and that is now starting. She needs more money for her new lifestyle and I suspect that is prompting her movement towards wanting a quick agreement.

We have had 2 preliminary meetings via Webex and each time I see the stone cold emotionless wife I remember the last time I saw her. It's brutal. It's heartbreaking to see it. Have other's here experienced this emotionless behavior? U have tears in my eye and she doesn't seem to care about anything. Unbelievable.

One positive is she seems to be contacting the kids more often. Kids can see she is off - they always tell me the weird things she says. They know their mother is a different person now and they seem at peace with it. It's been a rough year but to be honest at this point I would love to start a fresh 2025 with most of this nightmare behind me. I still have tears in my eyes 2-3 times a week but I have to really start letting go....

[Flummoxed]

I’m so sorry, Atari25- truly. This chaos truly puts one through the emotional wringer. I have also experienced the emotionless behavior. When I still saw him in person, the worst was the teen-like hatred. Since leaving, I’ve mainly experienced cold, almost brutal business-like responses. The HS team advised this was likely a way for him to get control in his own mind of at least something- and for them to live with themselves and their choices, they need us to be the villain of their story. Even though we know that’s simply not the reality.

Things will get better with time, whichever direction that may be. I can’t say when the hurt will lessen and the tears will diminish as I’m newer to the process myself. But we will come out of this stronger than before, that is for sure. Detachment is a requirement and will be key to healing. Here’s to a better 2025 all around!

[KayDee]

The cold and formal is really hard.  Personally, I think it is self-protection - compartmentalizing and putting up a wall. I mean, let's face it, their behaviour is pretty terrible, they must have to ring fence it, bury it or project outwards. And yes, as Flummoxed said, trying to create the illusion of control 'I am the sane, logical one here. NOTHING wrong with me'. Probably part of the same thing -  I suspect that the coldness can sometimes be a sort of passive aggressive anger. They know they are the perpetrator of so much hurt, and somehow they double down with monstrous self-justification. Often they get kinda grandiose like this when there is OM/OW bolstering them up. In short - facade.

[KayDee]

And so sorry you are going through this Atari - it may not seem like it, but having tears in your eyes, feeling your emotions, and grieving, it is the normal response. Hurts like hell but is part of the healing.

[zartheit]

Have other's here experienced this emotionless behavior?

Yes, I was on the receiving end of this as well. I remember earlier in the process where I broke down and began to cry in front of her and she looked at me with such revulsion and disgust. Later on, it was like I was a ghost that she was only dimly aware was haunting her. I now view this as my hurt and vulnerability reflecting her own fissures. Her disgust and avoidance were maybe her coping mechanisms for shoving down and hiding the pain that was animating her. I say this decidedly NOT to give this behavior a pass, just some thoughts that occurred to me years later that are consistent with it all being impersonal.

As for tears, well, I cried every day for years. I would phase in and out of sorrow the way I can now notice my lower back or hunger. It was always right around the corner, it was omniscient. In my case, it attenuated both in severity and frequency. I rarely feel assaulted by it these days. The interesting thing was that nothing really changed. It was like it was integrated and accommodated. The model I had in my head from the outset was that it would dissolve but instead I can simply sit with the experience, witness the memories. This is something that felt completely unimaginable. And paradoxically, when this happened then I started to "forget". My ex-wife now feels like an old childhood friend I lost contact with. There's not really the hurt associated there unless I really dig it up. There's just the change of seasons, the fluctuation of life, the transience of projects and eras and events. She's no longer "present". She's a memory from my past.

[Reinventing]

Well said. Unimaginable but eventually liveable.

[Atari25]

I’m so sorry, Atari25- truly. This chaos truly puts one through the emotional wringer. I have also experienced the emotionless behavior. When I still saw him in person, the worst was the teen-like hatred. Since leaving, I’ve mainly experienced cold, almost brutal business-like responses. The HS team advised this was likely a way for him to get control in his own mind of at least something- and for them to live with themselves and their choices, they need us to be the villain of their story. Even though we know that’s simply not the reality.

Things will get better with time, whichever direction that may be. I can’t say when the hurt will lessen and the tears will diminish as I’m newer to the process myself. But we will come out of this stronger than before, that is for sure. Detachment is a requirement and will be key to healing. Here’s to a better 2025 all around!

Thank you for the note, I truly believe what you say, we will all be stronger on the other side. It's the day to day slog of getting through it mentally and legally that are absolutely horrible. I have another Webex scheduled for next week. Ug!   

The cold and formal is really hard.  Personally, I think it is self-protection - compartmentalizing and putting up a wall. I mean, let's face it, their behaviour is pretty terrible, they must have to ring fence it, bury it or project outwards. And yes, as Flummoxed said, trying to create the illusion of control 'I am the sane, logical one here. NOTHING wrong with me'. Probably part of the same thing -  I suspect that the coldness can sometimes be a sort of passive aggressive anger. They know they are the perpetrator of so much hurt, and somehow they double down with monstrous self-justification. Often they get kinda grandiose like this when there is OM/OW bolstering them up. In short - facade.

I think it is self protection also I agree. They burry 25 years of memories and feelings. So hurtful.

And ya - I feel like she is angry at me. It haunts me in my dreams.

[Atari25]

Yes, I was on the receiving end of this as well. I remember earlier in the process where I broke down and began to cry in front of her and she looked at me with such revulsion and disgust. Later on, it was like I was a ghost that she was only dimly aware was haunting her. I now view this as my hurt and vulnerability reflecting her own fissures. Her disgust and avoidance were maybe her coping mechanisms for shoving down and hiding the pain that was animating her. I say this decidedly NOT to give this behavior a pass, just some thoughts that occurred to me years later that are consistent with it all being impersonal.

As for tears, well, I cried every day for years. I would phase in and out of sorrow the way I can now notice my lower back or hunger. It was always right around the corner, it was omniscient. In my case, it attenuated both in severity and frequency. I rarely feel assaulted by it these days. The interesting thing was that nothing really changed. It was like it was integrated and accommodated. The model I had in my head from the outset was that it would dissolve but instead I can simply sit with the experience, witness the memories. This is something that felt completely unimaginable. And paradoxically, when this happened then I started to "forget". My ex-wife now feels like an old childhood friend I lost contact with. There's not really the hurt associated there unless I really dig it up. There's just the change of seasons, the fluctuation of life, the transience of projects and eras and events. She's no longer "present". She's a memory from my past.

Very profound observations, I appreciate this. The fading memories however feel much more like a death to me. I have all the memories and photo albums and children and a home but I have no one to share them with anymore. I see a women on my screen that looks like the women I married and shared 25 years with but she acts like someone else I don't know anymore. She looks emotionally dead inside.

I can imagine my married life memories transitioning to a sort of childhood friend like feeling as you mention, but only to a degree. This is not someone I was just best friends with, it's someone I deeply loved. Maybe this will change  with more time I don't know. You gave me a lot to think about.

[Flummoxed]

Oh 100%, Atari25- it’s the day to day that firetrucking gets you. I spent yesterday pumping myself up- I wrote up this whole breakdown in my thread about it all making sense and how I’m ready to trust the process. This morning, I woke up with an awful feeling of dread and that sinking feeling remembering this is actually my reality right now. It’ll come and go in waves until we’re further from the deeps and closer to the shore. Chat with your daughter, listen to music that’s higher energy, and do at least one thing to make your day a little better no matter how small.

I can only imagine how tough the WebEx meetings have been thus far. You’ve got this! The only suggestion from me would be to try to detach the best you can and keep your poker face up during your call. Don’t let the MLCer see your hurt; don’t give them the satisfaction. As you work toward acceptance, it will get easier, but for now it truly is as UM shares- it’s not personal, it’s business. She is not who she was. Her true self is in there (at least, that’s what I believe), but she’s not the one in charge right now.

[Baxter1]

A-

It is so very tough to see someone you loved and cherished for all those years turn into someone else. It’s blows my mind sometimes, I agree with Flum, they are still in there. So sorry you are going through this

[Atari25]

It is so very tough to see someone you loved and cherished for all those years turn into someone else. It’s blows my mind sometimes, I agree with Flum, they are still in there. So sorry you are going through this

Oh 100%, Atari25- it’s the day to day that fire trucking gets you. I spent yesterday pumping myself up- I wrote up this whole breakdown in my thread about it all making sense and how I’m ready to trust the process. This morning, I woke up with an awful feeling of dread and that sinking feeling remembering this is actually my reality right now. It’ll come and go in waves until we’re further from the deeps and closer to the shore. Chat with your daughter, listen to music that’s higher energy, and do at least one thing to make your day a little better no matter how small.

I can only imagine how tough the WebEx meetings have been thus far. You’ve got this! The only suggestion from me would be to try to detach the best you can and keep your poker face up during your call. Don’t let the MLCer see your hurt; don’t give them the satisfaction. As you work toward acceptance, it will get easier, but for now it truly is as UM shares- it’s not personal, it’s business. She is not who she was. Her true self is in there (at least, that’s what I believe), but she’s not the one in charge right now.

I know she is in there @Baxter, she is just wearing a mask.

Thank you for the encouragement @Flummoxed. It's definitely all cold business now. Did you go through this also? I often wake up with sinking feelings. It can ruin my day.

Another appointment with the mediator this week. I am absolutely dreading it.

[Flummoxed]

Not quite there yet, Atari25, but dreading the day and working up my strength and courage for if/when it’s time. I hear you, friend- I’ve all too recently been down the negativity vortex myself.

One day at a time, one minute at a time. We can only control our actions, our beliefs, and responses. Recently, I’ve learned again that our fear of the unknown is often greater than the upcoming event. Try to remember back to what you do know: you’ve made it through the past sessions and you will make it through this one. That she is still in there, just deep deep down. That you are just fine going into this and you will be just fine once you’re out. Sure, it may pack a huge emotional wallop and crazy may come from all directions, but you will unpack it all and process it and come out of it just fine.

[Treasur]

These are hard, painful times, we know, Atari. Most of us here have stumbled through them - it’s often true I think that LBS find themselves dealing with the process of separation or divorce when we are still emotionally quite fragile. All I can say is that this stage of your life, and the process, is finite. It will feel as if it will never end, but it will. And there is a life worth having on the other side of it even if it is immeasurably different from the life you thought you’d be living.

I don’t know if the persona of your wife is ‘still in there’; I don’t even know if that was/is true about my own former spouse. Time will tell. Yet the broken things are still broken, aren’t they? Imho a lot of this is about the normal process of grief.

What I do know though is that, in this process, you are not dealing with that person but an unrecognisably different version. And this version is her way of dealing with the situation she finds herself in - still not about you, or your kids, or your old life even. I suspect the more you can deal with the reality of the new version who just happens to wear your wife’s face, the less gut-wrenching it will feel for you.

Try to accept that you cannot scratch whatever her itch is, that you should not expect fairness or kindness from her, that you cannot please or appease her., that there is unlikely to be much quid pro quo unless the law enforces it. That she does not care about the things you care about in the way you care about them right now. Bc that just seems to be how these folks roll. One can have scrapingly low expectations and still be open to being pleasantly surprised if people behave better. That it really isn’t about you regardless of what she says or how you feel.

Tbh small tricks can help….turning the video function off for these kind of Webex things, putting time limits on them, delegating the interactions you can to your lawyer whenever you can, keeping something out of sight but in your eyeline which is nothing to do with your marriage but you find consoling or encouraging. Going for a walk before or after, or a run, or something else nice that stops you getting lost in the overthinking or all those tough emotions. Small things.

We are all deeply sorry that this is where you are, but we are virtually sitting with you bc we know how very hard it is. This time too shall pass xxxx

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I guess I am late to the party, but there is always an opportunity to chime in. I am going to offer some suggestions and possibly a new mindset to help you navigate this new part of your journey.

I know she is in there @Baxter, she is just wearing a mask.

I am not sure about this. In fact I think the person that was married to you had the mask torn off and what you really see is an unhappy person that needs to resolve the issues that were deep inside her years before you met her.

In fact, you even alluded to these issues.

Counseling about 10 years ago helped a little with some issues at the time but I always felt there were unresolved issues from her childhood. I don't know exactly what they are but seemed to involve her father.

My ex had the same issues from her childhood as well. To this day, I don't know if she has ever received the counseling she needs. I do know that she still has flights of fancy, but that the reality of her situation- maintaining a job, sustaining a household, and helping with my youngest daughter have all helped ground her to some extent. She is friendly to me, but I am very guarded as I don't trust her at all. In your situation, she is projecting her angst and depression on you as it is easier to blame you then it is to confront the demons of her past.

So things have settled down though wife is still drinking, partying and is in full blown MLC.

Let's look at this. Your wife lost her business and then became a flight attendant. Now, some flight crews are professional and others enjoy the freedom to the fullest. I knew a flight attendant and she was aware of crews that slept with nobody and crews that slept with everybody. And more than likely, your wife has worked on several crews. That just doesn't help your situation. Alcohol and depression go hand in hand. I am not an expert, but alcohol can be just as distracting from a relationship than having an alienator.

It's brutal. It's heartbreaking to see it. Have other's here experienced this emotionless behavior? U have tears in my eye and she doesn't seem to care about anything. Unbelievable.

She does care and the fact that she wants to get this over quickly may help both of you in the long run. Nothing like a long, drawn out, and expensive divorce to ruin any feelings you may have for her now and far into the future. Just keep it for what it is-business. If she walks away content with what she has, and you are not taken to the cleaners, good for the both of you.

Yet the broken things are still broken, aren’t they?

This is the part you need to focus on and the only person that can "fix her- is herself. This isn't about rewiring or new programming will result in "return of the old wife". Instead, something new may come out and that person may or may not be to your liking. That will be your choice. In the end, she may stay lost and sustain herself through her new lifestyle of drinking and hanging out with others who are great associates but will never truly be friends or loved ones.

This is why we urge you to live your life as if she is not coming back. This is the hardest part for the LBSer, the loss of control. We really want to add new batteries or find a great DIY video to just fix things. If it was that simple, we would have already made the manual and RCR would be on a long speaking tour.  The acceptance comes when we realize that we don't have control and instead focus on what we can somewhat control.

Be strong and do not let fear determine your actions. You are not going to win any brownie points with her by playing nice guy during the mediation. Be strategic, but do it for yourself-not her.

Keep posting and focus on making a few moments of bliss for yourself today!

(((Ready)))

[Atari25]

I am not sure about this. In fact I think the person that was married to you had the mask torn off and what you really see is an unhappy person that needs to resolve the issues that were deep inside her years before you met her. In fact, you even alluded to these issues.

You may be right. I never really thought of it this way but looking back it does make some sense. There was certainly an element of unhappiness in her the last 5-10 years.

I will definitely give this idea more thought. Thank you.

Try to accept that you cannot scratch whatever her itch is, that you should not expect fairness or kindness from her, that you cannot please or appease her., that there is unlikely to be much quid pro quo unless the law enforces it. That she does not care about the things you care about in the way you care about them right now. Bc that just seems to be how these folks roll. One can have scrapingly low expectations and still be open to being pleasantly surprised if people behave better. That it really isn’t about you regardless of what she says or how you feel.

We are all deeply sorry that this is where you are, but we are virtually sitting with you bc we know how very hard it is. This time too shall pass xxxx

One day at a time, one minute at a time. We can only control our actions, our beliefs, and responses. Recently, I’ve learned again that our fear of the unknown is often greater than the upcoming event. Try to remember back to what you do know: you’ve made it through the past sessions and you will make it through this one. That she is still in there, just deep deep down. That you are just fine going into this and you will be just fine once you’re out. Sure, it may pack a huge emotional wallop and crazy may come from all directions, but you will unpack it all and process it and come out of it just fine.

This is why we urge you to live your life as if she is not coming back. This is the hardest part for the LBSer, the loss of control. We really want to add new batteries or find a great DIY video to just fix things. If it was that simple, we would have already made the manual and RCR would be on a long speaking tour.  The acceptance comes when we realize that we don't have control and instead focus on what we can somewhat control.

I am trying my best. 25 years is hard to let go of. I feel like I have accepted that I have no control but the process is painful.

Another mediation call today. I will spend the day dreading it but it has to happen. One day at a time...

[Treasur]

I don’t know how many calls are scheduled or why or what about, but a gentle reminder that it’s ok to put a limit on it…to say I’ll do this much and no more after double-checking with your lawyer of course. I don’t know if you feel these mediation calls are constructive or progressing on the key issues? But it’s not uncommon here to find that these MLC folks, much as they claim to want their escape, can also strangely be a bit of a blockage to progress. Hard to mediate with anyone without some level of give and take, and MLCers tend to be poor at that. And imho it’s ok to say you gave mediation a good college try but step back from it if it’s not productive. Not perfect bc everyone loses something in a divorce, don’t they, but some concrete outcomes?

Do you think progress is being made?
How many more sessions are scheduled?
And what happens next if mediation does not produce an agreement that both of you can live with?

[Atari25]

I don’t know how many calls are scheduled or why or what about, but a gentle reminder that it’s ok to put a limit on it…to say I’ll do this much and no more after double-checking with your lawyer of course. I don’t know if you feel these mediation calls are constructive or progressing on the key issues? But it’s not uncommon here to find that these MLC folks, much as they claim to want their escape, can also strangely be a bit of a blockage to progress. Hard to mediate with anyone without some level of give and take, and MLCers tend to be poor at that. And imho it’s ok to say you gave mediation a good college try but step back from it if it’s not productive. Not perfect bc everyone loses something in a divorce, don’t they, but some concrete outcomes?

Do you think progress is being made?
How many more sessions are scheduled?
And what happens next if mediation does not produce an agreement that both of you can live with?

Hi @Treasur. My wife has said multiple times she does not want to fight, she just wants 1/2 of the house and support payments. Early stages - we shall see.

We agreed to use 1 mediator to hammer out an agreement between us. Will that work? I hope so. I am going to text her next week and she what she is thinking. It's definitely grueling, upsetting and uncomfortable but if all goes well maybe 2 or 3 more meetings. They are on Webex BTW, not in-person.

She wants a quick escape, no doubt about that. At this point anything fair is a go from me. I think my friends and family and therapist are right. I need to start letting her go..

[Treasur]

Ok, I see, so some end in sight. I presume you have taken legal advice on what is fair and legally expected where you live wrt to spousal and child support etc, and bigger financial stuff like house, debts and pensions et al. And normal reasonable boundaries on timescales and conditions for any ongoing support as opposed to one-off clean break things? Plus I hope your half of the 25k she took from the house credit line.

Tbh I would pause a beat before texting her. Why? Bc it is probably wiser to keep the mediation talk to the mediation place, or legal talk to the lawyers if mediation doesn’t work out.  And I’m not sure what it would add…if she agrees with what’s on the table, or doesn’t, she is quite capable of saying so in the next Webex chat, right? What more/else do you think any text exchange gives you? And tbh, had she proven so far to be a woman whose word can be trusted….perhaps not?

Fwiw, it’s a not uncommon LBS thing to come up with reasons to contact them and we can fool ourselves a bit about that at your stage (puts hand up here lol). Everything from sick cats to plumbing problems to mail that turns up for them….. There’s a bit of our brain that feels almost a compulsive need to scratch an emotional itch, I think, even if we don’t know it….its a weird kind of denial/bargaining/ hope thing, I think. And we humans can be darned creative in rationalising our own reactions ha ha!

So the impulse is LBS normal lol…but i think you’d be wise to just do nothing, leave the ball in her court and see what she says in the next Webex. Take a breath. Use the old rule of 3 we talk about here. Do nothing until/unless you can be very clear-eyed about your objective. And when in doubt, do nothing much. Let things take place in the right place for them, and find other ways to scratch or process whatever the underpinning ‘itch’ is perhaps?

This stuff is painful and wearing though, isn’t it? It felt a bit like watching someone die to me; it was awful. If this is how it feels to you, all the more important that you dig deep in self-care and a bit of living that has nothing to do with all this stuff. How are you doing with that?

[sachertorte]

I hope you'll take good care of yourself. Please know that there are a lot of people in our situation. Moreover, you know what? If we LBS have gotten together with another LBS-type person instead of with the MLCer, I'll bet you many of us would be blissfully celebrating our anniversaries and living out our golden years together right now. Not walking through this vale of tears.

I am not blaming the problems of our marriages all on the other person. However, I know in my XH's case he is still unhappy, and he still blames me. Whereas I am happy with my own life without him. I am just unhappy to have had my family wrecked. It sounds like you are a great dad and husband, and feel your home should have been impregnable. I agree.

My own family of origin stayed intact and I think of it as the greatest gift. He on the other hand had no problem blowing up our family. Like your wife.

Except, guess what? The MLCer used to need us. Steadfast, honorable, and loyal as we are. They would never have picked those affair partners for marriage. They knew enough of the doubt thriving inside such people to stay away. My XH used to admire my upright character and revel in my love. He still marveled when we saw each other most recently about how loyal I have been. (I never turned against him during or after the divorce. He to this day thinks I would turn vindictive because of his cheating, 7 years out from BD. Projection.)

They needed our loyalty. They are just no longer loyal. Where does that put us?

I guess what I am trying to say is that it turns out maybe we just need someone who loves us the way we love the MLCer? And maybe we can start by loving ourselves the way we love the MLCer? Because that love is no longer valuable to or convenient for them.

What we hold sacred, they deem a hindrance.

We are in an intractable bind. Of the making of our own truthful nature. We deserved someone like ourselves, but people who needed our truthfulness got to us first.

And yet, maybe, they never truly knew us.

Bless.

[Atari25]

I hope you'll take good care of yourself. Please know that there are a lot of people in our situation. Moreover, you know what? If we LBS have gotten together with another LBS-type person instead of with the MLCer, I'll bet you many of us would be blissfully celebrating our anniversaries and living out our golden years together right now. Not walking through this vale of tears.

I am not blaming the problems of our marriages all on the other person. However, I know in my XH's case he is still unhappy, and he still blames me. Whereas I am happy with my own life without him. I am just unhappy to have had my family wrecked. It sounds like you are a great dad and husband, and feel your home should have been impregnable. I agree.

My own family of origin stayed intact and I think of it as the greatest gift. He on the other hand had no problem blowing up our family. Like your wife.

You are right - I'm sure if I had married someone with a happy childhood and no unresolved issues I would be very happily married. I was 100% committed to family life, wife and community.

My wife is definitely not happy either. She never will be. I tried to make her happy and failed.

Ok, I see, so some end in sight. I presume you have taken legal advice on what is fair and legally expected where you live wrt to spousal and child support etc, and bigger financial stuff like house, debts and pensions et al. And normal reasonable boundaries on timescales and conditions for any ongoing support as opposed to one-off clean break things? Plus I hope your half of the 25k she took from the house credit line.

Tbh I would pause a beat before texting her. Why? Bc it is probably wiser to keep the mediation talk to the mediation place, or legal talk to the lawyers if mediation doesn’t work out.  And I’m not sure what it would add…if she agrees with what’s on the table, or doesn’t, she is quite capable of saying so in the next Webex chat, right? What more/else do you think any text exchange gives you? And tbh, had she proven so far to be a woman whose word can be trusted….perhaps not?

Fwiw, it’s a not uncommon LBS thing to come up with reasons to contact them and we can fool ourselves a bit about that at your stage (puts hand up here lol). Everything from sick cats to plumbing problems to mail that turns up for them….. There’s a bit of our brain that feels almost a compulsive need to scratch an emotional itch, I think, even if we don’t know it….its a weird kind of denial/bargaining/ hope thing, I think. And we humans can be darned creative in rationalising our own reactions ha ha!

So the impulse is LBS normal lol…but i think you’d be wise to just do nothing, leave the ball in her court and see what she says in the next Webex. Take a breath. Use the old rule of 3 we talk about here. Do nothing until/unless you can be very clear-eyed about your objective. And when in doubt, do nothing much. Let things take place in the right place for them, and find other ways to scratch or process whatever the underpinning ‘itch’ is perhaps?

This stuff is painful and wearing though, isn’t it? It felt a bit like watching someone die to me; it was awful. If this is how it feels to you, all the more important that you dig deep in self-care and a bit of living that has nothing to do with all this stuff. How are you doing with that?

Thank you for the thoughts, I really appreciate what your wrote here. I spoke with the mediator and she will indeed help us together on-line hammer out an agreement. I will not call her and she is not asking me to. It's all good, I will let the process happen as it will. Ball is in her court to ask for what she thinks is fair, we shall see.

It's all very painful and wearing. I don't know how to personally process what's going on and my life right now. I have a session coming up next week with my therapist to help me. You are right, it's not dissimilar from a death. I don't know the person that was my wife. I thought I did - I was wrong.

I am trying so hard to take care of myself and I'm getting better at it as I slowly detach from her. I can't help but still feel guilt about enjoying myself while this is all going on though, I think that's the hardest part for me. I will literally stop having a good time some evenings and think about all the horrible things happening. I need to stop that.

[Flummoxed]

Give yourself grace- it’s hard to completely pivot as the LBS, especially with the divorce ongoing. You’re only human and you’re in the midst of detachment. Your emotions are valid; a part of you is still processing. But it’s great that you’re enjoying your life- that’s what you should be doing! We all fake it ‘til we make it during those tougher moments, but keep at it because you’re doing brilliantly.

[UrsaMajor]

My wife is definitely not happy either. She never will be. I tried to make her happy and failed.

This is because, as a living, breathing, fallible human being, you have absolutely NO chance to "make someone else 'happy,'" It is simply not possible. You may make them feel content, joyous, "happy" for a while but not permanently. This is the fallacy that people get coaxed into believing - that "the right person" can make them happy. The problem is that the "right" person is the one facing them in the mirror. Anything more than that is doomed from the start to fail. This is because we can only control ourselves. If we are not happy with ourselves (or, in our cases, the MLC'er) is not happy with themselves), in the end, there is no way we can "make" them happy and keep them happy. It is like pouring water into a bucket that has holes and where the MLC'er is busy poking MORE holes into the bucket. In the end, they blame us that e can't keep their bucket filled, whereas, in reality, they are the ones who are responsible for patching the leaks in their bucket so we can add our joy into it.......

Thank you for the thoughts, I really appreciate what your wrote here. I spoke with the mediator and she will indeed help us together on-line hammer out an agreement. I will not call her and she is not asking me to. It's all good, I will let the process happen as it will. Ball is in her court to ask for what she thinks is fair, we shall see.

Not to try to teach my grandmother to suck eggs but, form my experience with MLCxW1 (yeah, I won the jackpot and had to go through this twice now), it would be a good idea to have your ducks in a row in advance and know what you are entitled to and for what you are legally obligated to provide. Some MLC'ers are so ready to cut and run, they leave everything to the LBS. Others are so greedy and self-absorbed that they want everything and the kitchen sink to boot and will go to great lengths to get that. Having an idea of what is required and what is realistic before the Mid-Lifer comes to the table can save you an awful lot of time, expense and grief.

[Imgood]

You didn’t fail. People that have major unresolved issues fail themselves (they are most likely not aware of this) by rug sweeping, burying, keeping themselves distracted by staying busy and the list goes on. Please try to remember this. Change up the self-talk, it’s important what we tell ourselves. Some might see it as the mlcer failing them. Certainly an argument can be made for that. In my situation, I currently see a pained and depressed adolescent/middlescent trapped in a fifty something body. I see a defeated, lost and broken boy/man?. I find it very sad.

[Atari25]

This is because, as a living, breathing, fallible human being, you have absolutely NO chance to "make someone else 'happy,'" It is simply not possible. You may make them feel content, joyous, "happy" for a while but not permanently. This is the fallacy that people get coaxed into believing - that "the right person" can make them happy. The problem is that the "right" person is the one facing them in the mirror. Anything more than that is doomed from the start to fail. This is because we can only control ourselves. If we are not happy with ourselves (or, in our cases, the MLC'er) is not happy with themselves), in the end, there is no way we can "make" them happy and keep them happy. It is like pouring water into a bucket that has holes and where the MLC'er is busy poking MORE holes into the bucket. In the end, they blame us that e can't keep their bucket filled, whereas, in reality, they are the ones who are responsible for patching the leaks in their bucket so we can add our joy into it.......

From what I am reading these days you are 100% correct. Funny thing is I asked her last time I saw her if she was happy with her new life and she said "I'm trying". I thought to myself after, she was probably very honest with that statement. I tear up every time I think of her saying that,

Not to try to teach my grandmother to suck eggs but, form my experience with MLCxW1 (yeah, I won the jackpot and had to go through this twice now), it would be a good idea to have your ducks in a row in advance and know what you are entitled to and for what you are legally obligated to provide. Some MLC'ers are so ready to cut and run, they leave everything to the LBS. Others are so greedy and self-absorbed that they want everything and the kitchen sink to boot and will go to great lengths to get that. Having an idea of what is required and what is realistic before the Mid-Lifer comes to the table can save you an awful lot of time, expense and grief.

I don't think she will be greedy but I should know more in the next couple of weeks. My anxiety is so high about this.

You have been through 2X MLC divorces??

[Atari25]

You didn’t fail. People that have major unresolved issues fail themselves (they are most likely not aware of this) by rug sweeping, burying, keeping themselves distracted by staying busy and the list goes on. Please try to remember this. Change up the self-talk, it’s important what we tell ourselves. Some might see it as the mlcer failing them. Certainly an argument can be made for that. In my situation, I currently see a pained and depressed adolescent/middlescent trapped in a fifty something body. I see a defeated, lost and broken boy/man?. I find it very sad.

I agree - I think they don't know themselves. The amazing thing is she has seen the destruction and history of failed friendships and unhappiness and still refuses to get help. It's mind boggling.

It's very sad seeing someone you love and someone you have some much history with -  broken. I'm sorry you are in the same situation.

Give yourself grace- it’s hard to completely pivot as the LBS, especially with the divorce ongoing. You’re only human and you’re in the midst of detachment. Your emotions are valid; a part of you is still processing. But it’s great that you’re enjoying your life- that’s what you should be doing! We all fake it ‘til we make it during those tougher moments, but keep at it because you’re doing brilliantly.

I have a very good lady friend who has been through a lot and her husband committed suicide. We talk a lot and I think she is still faking it, a lot of pain inside. It's a long road and a lot of processing. Thank you.

[UrsaMajor]

Not to try to teach my grandmother to suck eggs but, form my experience with MLCxW1 (yeah, I won the jackpot and had to go through this twice now), it would be a good idea to have your ducks in a row in advance and know what you are entitled to and for what you are legally obligated to provide. Some MLC'ers are so ready to cut and run, they leave everything to the LBS. Others are so greedy and self-absorbed that they want everything and the kitchen sink to boot and will go to great lengths to get that. Having an idea of what is required and what is realistic before the Mid-Lifer comes to the table can save you an awful lot of time, expense and grief.

I don't think she will be greedy but I should know more in the next couple of weeks. My anxiety is so high about this.

You have been through 2X MLC divorces??

Yeah.... Lucky me, right?  Different experiences to a point but the same outcome.... MLCxW1 was like Godzilla with rabies on a bad day in terms of Monster..... I had to take legal measures to have access to my D(now34).  MLCxW2 was and is a Wallower par excellence.... However, she made an astonishing revelation at our last appointment with my D13's Therapist - "I had to learn how to make myself happy and I think that I am finally doing that." What I see speaks otherwise but time will tell..... I have, however, moved on so ....

I agree - I think they don't know themselves. The amazing thing is she has seen the destruction and history of failed friendships and unhappiness and still refuses to get help. It's mind boggling.

MLCxW 2 is the same. Her F (my xFIL-RIP) went toddling off into the tunnel and never did come out before he passed on to larger life. He left a tail of destruction behind him. My xMIL was pretty bitter about it the rest of her life as well and despite living / seeing this, MLCxW2 didn't think dealing with it was needed....

[Atari25]

Yeah.... Lucky me, right?  Different experiences to a point but the same outcome.... MLCxW1 was like Godzilla with rabies on a bad day in terms of Monster..... I had to take legal measures to have access to my D(now34).  MLCxW2 was and is a Wallower par excellence.... However, she made an astonishing revelation at our last appointment with my D13's Therapist - "I had to learn how to make myself happy and I think that I am finally doing that." What I see speaks otherwise but time will tell..... I have, however, moved on so ....

Wow that's incredible, I'm so sorry. I cannot imagine going through this again. I have learned so much this year, I feel like I will at least see some warning signs if I decide to date again. 

MLCxW 2 is the same. Her F (my xFIL-RIP) went toddling off into the tunnel and never did come out before he passed on to larger life. He left a tail of destruction behind him. My xMIL was pretty bitter about it the rest of her life as well and despite living / seeing this, MLCxW2 didn't think dealing with it was needed....

Wow - that's a lot.  I can't imagine how MLCs live with what goes on in their minds and in their lives. I wish so much I could help my wife because I still love who she was, it's just hopeless.

[UrsaMajor]

Wow that's incredible, I'm so sorry. I cannot imagine going through this again. I have learned so much this year, I feel like I will at least see some warning signs if I decide to date again. 

Well, one thing I can tell you from experience is to NOT ignore the red flags.. Don't think you can prove that not everyone in the world is like <whoever> because that is a SERIOUS indication of an MLC-in-waiting.... I wish I could have told myself that about 25 or so years ago but, on the other hand, if I didn't go down the path I did, I wouldn't have D13 and S17 now.....

Wow - that's a lot.  I can't imagine how MLCs live with what goes on in their minds and in their lives. I wish so much I could help my wife because I still love who she was, it's just hopeless.

It IS hopeless because you (the LBS) is absolutely the LAST person on the entire planet that can help the Mid-Lifer grow or heal.... All you can do is sit tight, grab the popcorn, and watch the impending train wreck from far enough away to not get caught in the resulting destruction more than you already have....

[Atari25]

It IS hopeless because you (the LBS) is absolutely the LAST person on the entire planet that can help the Mid-Lifer grow or heal.... All you can do is sit tight, grab the popcorn, and watch the impending train wreck from far enough away to not get caught in the resulting destruction more than you already have....

I don't wish and harm to my wife and I don't want to see a train wreck. I honestly feel bad for her even though she has really hurt me in so many ways. She is incapable of finding happiness and I suspect her path will not change. A very strong avoidant!

You are right though - I can't help her.

[Atari25]

We had our first mediation meeting on Friday - it was brutal. We are using a neutral mediator that we both agreed to but I had not met with my new lawyer yet.

W said she wanted 1/2 house and spousal support. Problem is she had all kinds of extra debt that she didn't reveal until this meeting so now it seems I'm on the hook for 1/2 of that since she claims it was business related (my name is on her company which is bankrupt). It's complicated so I need to chat about this with lawyer tomorrow.

The weird part of the meeting was her request to get 10 years of support paid up-front - amount is in the $450,000 range!!!!

On what planet does she think I can come up with $500K for the house PLUS another $450K cash to pay her out? W claims this is the way to go as I wouldn't have to deal with payments for the next 10 years... what??

I basically said nothing yet other than I have to talk to my lawyer, for me it was a meeting to get an idea of what she wanted. She is clearly delusional!!!

[Flummoxed]

Good for you, Atari25! Absolutely stay cool and meet with your lawyer to determine best next steps. I’m really sorry to hear about the less than ideal surprise, but your lawyer will help outline how to best proceed from here. Requests can be made, but that doesn’t mean we need to react to them and you handled it really well. Please do something kind for yourself until you need to discuss strategy- process those emotions and let them go.

I also want to add that the nature of this issue requires them to hit their personal rock bottom in order to (hopefully) inspire them to crawl out from the depths. We can’t do anything but hope they hit that place and sometimes a little humor is needed as we ourselves make progress on our journey. We’re not cheering for their destruction, but we also kind of are, from a safe distance if that makes sense.

[JohnnyBravo]

Were you and your wife isolated with only the mediator going back and forth? That’s how it was for me, and I was mostly thankful. (My ex-wife had moved away, so she and her atty were on a zoom call to the mediator in another room.)

Mine wanted to hammer out details beforehand so we would have a short mediation, but much like yours she wanted impossible things so I had to work it all with my atty and the mediation. “I don’t want half of your 401k, I just want cash.” Where am I going to get this cash from?

At least you’ve gotten started. I found this was much easier when I had actual tasks to accomplish.

JB

[Treasur]

I’m sorry, Atari, that your stbxw is being so MLC textbook but agree with others that you handled it well and wisely.

With years of hindsight - and a mea culpa #metoo from over here lol - what strikes me as being a smudge delusional is less this textbook behaviour but more how shocking we LBS find it. If someone can lie, cheat and behave with so little empathy and kindness after years together, it’s odd really that we expect them to behave with some honesty and fairness during a divorce process, isn’t it?

And yet most of us do. I did.

I can still remember being shocked and a bit confused by just how dishonest and unfair by then h was in everything from big things to small things….it made no sense to me at all, I couldn’t even see how it served him at times, it was almost surreal - so many lies and so much weird self-centredness. I simply could not understand why, if I could summon the grace to accept his desire to leave, he would not want to behave with some grace in how he left. But of course that was me projecting my values and priorities on someone else who evidently no longer shared them. And I couldn’t understand it bc I’m not wired that way and the person I’d known for decades had behaved differently for decades.

But if you think about it, that was a bit silly of me, wasn’t it? If you can lie and cheat and steal when my father was dying, or when I had cancer, that’s a pretty low bar. Why would I expect better in a divorce process or think he would be concerned about my well-being at all when he’d evidently chosen a path already that he wanted regardless of how damaging it might be for me? So, imho, some of the ‘delusional’ bit lies with us LBS…we expect something a bit better or fairer or kinder long after that ship has sailed.

Which is why you handled it very well. It takes a little time, and sometimes the detached eye of a lawyer, to see how things are as opposed to how we think they should be. Your stbxw is allowed to ask for the moon with a side order of chips if she wishes….but it does not mean that you or your lawyer or life is obliged to serve it up for her. She may not like that, she may not like you or your lawyer or the universe, but what she wants is her business not your responsibility, isn’t it? And this is a time for you to figure out your own priorities and limitations, and legal obligations, regardless of her opinion. So taking time to work that out as calmly as you can is very wise and again jmo, the reason why ‘normal’ mediation rarely works with MLC types. Again jmo, but I think divorce is inherently a lose-lose process usually…all one can do is work out how to carry forward as little damage as possible in the circumstances.

[Atari25]

I’m sorry, Atari, that your stbxw is being so MLC textbook but agree with others that you handled it well and wisely.

With years of hindsight - and a mea culpa #metoo from over here lol - what strikes me as being a smudge delusional is less this textbook behaviour but more how shocking we LBS find it. If someone can lie, cheat and behave with so little empathy and kindness after years together, it’s odd really that we expect them to behave with some honesty and fairness during a divorce process, isn’t it?

And yet most of us do. I did.

I can still remember being shocked and a bit confused by just how dishonest and unfair by then h was in everything from big things to small things….it made no sense to me at all, I couldn’t even see how it served him at times, it was almost surreal - so many lies and so much weird self-centredness. I simply could not understand why, if I could summon the grace to accept his desire to leave, he would not want to behave with some grace in how he left. But of course that was me projecting my values and priorities on someone else who evidently no longer shared them. And I couldn’t understand it bc I’m not wired that way and the person I’d known for decades had behaved differently for decades.

But if you think about it, that was a bit silly of me, wasn’t it? If you can lie and cheat and steal when my father was dying, or when I had cancer, that’s a pretty low bar. Why would I expect better in a divorce process or think he would be concerned about my well-being at all when he’d evidently chosen a path already that he wanted regardless of how damaging it might be for me? So, imho, some of the ‘delusional’ bit lies with us LBS…we expect something a bit better or fairer or kinder long after that ship has sailed.

Which is why you handled it very well. It takes a little time, and sometimes the detached eye of a lawyer, to see how things are as opposed to how we think they should be. Your stbxw is allowed to ask for the moon with a side order of chips if she wishes….but it does not mean that you or your lawyer or life is obliged to serve it up for her. She may not like that, she may not like you or your lawyer or the universe, but what she wants is her business not your responsibility, isn’t it? And this is a time for you to figure out your own priorities and limitations, and legal obligations, regardless of her opinion. So taking time to work that out as calmly as you can is very wise and again jmo, the reason why ‘normal’ mediation rarely works with MLC types. Again jmo, but I think divorce is inherently a lose-lose process usually…all one can do is work out how to carry forward as little damage as possible in the circumstances.

All well said, I'm sorry you went through this also.

I always thought my wife was an honest kind person and now she seems anything but that. Very self centered and I have caught her in multiple lies the last 2 years. The hidden debt is partly my fault. Her business was struggling and I paid down all her credit cards about 6-7 years ago so she could get back on her feet. I was clearly kidding myself that she would do that. All good intentions but I had no idea what was going on with her. 

Using Divorcemate software it's pretty clear what she is entitled to and to be fair, she could have gone for 1/2 of all my retirement assets and pension also and she didn't. We will see how it all goes. I delayed the next meeting to make sure my ducks are all in a row. She seems to be in rush but it's too important for that.

[Atari25]

Were you and your wife isolated with only the mediator going back and forth? That’s how it was for me, and I was mostly thankful. (My ex-wife had moved away, so she and her atty were on a zoom call to the mediator in another room.)

Mine wanted to hammer out details beforehand so we would have a short mediation, but much like yours she wanted impossible things so I had to work it all with my atty and the mediation. “I don’t want half of your 401k, I just want cash.” Where am I going to get this cash from?

Exactly - I don't understand how she thinks it's feasible to borrow that much money. I can't imagine the payments LOL. I clearly gave her way too much credit where money and finances were concerned.

Yes we are doing the same as you, Zoom calls, my wife lives in a town about 20 minutes away since January. She has completely detached from her former life. It's so bizarre.

I also want to add that the nature of this issue requires them to hit their personal rock bottom in order to (hopefully) inspire them to crawl out from the depths. We can’t do anything but hope they hit that place and sometimes a little humor is needed as we ourselves make progress on our journey. We’re not cheering for their destruction, but we also kind of are, from a safe distance if that makes sense.

Thank you Flummoxed. I don't think she has hit rock bottom unfortunately. That is probably coming but not yet.

I know what you mean though. I think they have to hit rock bottom before they can get better. It's heartbreaking.