[WHY]

Why are there so few resources from those that have actually gone through MLC out there?  I mean, over the last decade, ~10-12% of the population....  There should be thousands of stories of people describing what they went through.

Yet, I scoured YouTube, and I couldnt find one legit one from a healed MLCer describing what they went through.

This woman was documenting her journey, but then just disappeared 4 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/@MIDLIFECRISIS50/videos

This doesnt make sense.  Are MLCers so ashamed they just want to put that part of their life behind them?  Do they not care enough to even discuss it because they're indifferent?  Or are their lives better and its not worth looking back in their past?

I really dont understand this.

[forthetrees]

Perhaps because they are still out in the weeds looking for their proverbial golf ball for that amazing shot that lies just ahead. I´m not sure that the majority do heal. I think that most fracture and then live with their fractured existence- maybe due to having run out of energy and the task of healing seems insurmountable, maybe because they finally see the path of destruction and think they merit a fractured life, maybe because what they´ve come to is good enough. You can be sure that if going through a MLC brought these folks the everlasting happiness they seek that someone would have monetized it by now and become the MLC influencer of our times. They´d rebrand it as Mid-Life Freedom and not a crisis.

[JohnnyBravo]

They´d rebrand it as Mid-Life Freedom and not a crisis.

I think I've actually seen it that way in some groups/YouTube videos. Not making money off of it (except advertising?), but the whole, "You deserve a change" kind of thing.

I'm not sure why anybody would go through the trouble of documenting that, personally. They may want attention during the MLC, but they're getting that vial the MLC "process."

[WHY]

They´d rebrand it as Mid-Life Freedom and not a crisis.

I think I've actually seen it that way in some groups/YouTube videos. Not making money off of it (except advertising?), but the whole, "You deserve a change" kind of thing.

I'm not sure why anybody would go through the trouble of documenting that, personally. They may want attention during the MLC, but they're getting that vial the MLC "process."

There are tons of videos like this.  “Midlife opportunity etc”.  It’s all BS.  It’s doesn’t go into what causes MLC or the destruction it has one family.  Or the affects of infidelity.  I actually can’t stand these videos.  They talk about transition vs crisis.

And there are tons of vids for LBS and what is MLC and want to do.

But my point still stands.  I would expect at least some vids if people trying to help others by talking about what they went through being a recovered MLCer.

Does this tell me that they don’t truly regret what happened and learn to reach acceptance wherever they’ve landed?  That they basically come out the cocoon and no longer need/want us?

Seriously is anyone else really surprised that there aren’t ANY vids on this?   Makes me question the hearts blessings and RCR teachings.  They’re a lifesaver for LBS to survive BD and find a path forward.  But for explaining the MLCers recovery?

How many MLCers actually reconcile?

[Ready2Transform]

Early on, the reconciliation stories gave me a great deal of hope, and the writings here and by HB, Rejoice Ministries, Newman's Own (not Paul Newman but the blog name was something similar), Joe Beam, etc. were incredibly soothing. I wouldn't discount that. Anything that cultivates love over bitterness isn't bad. But hope vs. false hope is a thing that might be an uncomfortable conversation but still one that should be had. We should all have hope here, for our spouses and/or for ourselves. Life is not over. But I think the lack of self-aware former MLCers sort of tells the tale in itself. I know other people (not just my former spouse) who have had/are having MLCs, and certainly, they're not the types who will ever admit they were wrong or doing anything other than living their lives on their own terms. Even in what I think was my midlife transition, I was pretty brutal to my dad, but there came a point after where we had talked out all that could be talked out, all was forgiven, and it was time to accept that and move on from it. It doesn't even feel like that big of a chapter of my life now, but it was nutso at the time. I wouldn't want to be focused on that forever, and maybe even healthy people who had crises don't want to be either. That doesn't feel very satisfying for an LBS. Believe me, even though I don't want to reconcile now, it would be nice to think my xH would be regretful and try to atone. But likely, he won't. I don't regret finally opening my mind to that notion about seven years ago or so, so that I could move through the grief and go on. Not that anyone else should follow my exact path, but I think we all know when it's time to evaluate our stances.

[Trustandlove]

My own feeling is that MLCers who had gone through it and recovered are probably focusing their energies on their recovered life, and probably don't want to think about what they went through -- also, in order for them to write about they would have to 1) remember it all; 2) want to do the writing; and 3) be able to write reasonably well.

That all takes a lot of energy, and my gut feeling is that if they did go through something like what we have experienced with our spouses they would absolutely not want to keep revisiting it; they might feel lucky that they got through with their lives intact and just want to get on with life.  They may also feel ashamed about it. 

In many ways much like what I think LBS who reconcile do; I think that those who do reconcile focus on their lives now rather than writing about it, which is part of the reason we don't hear so much from them. 

I also think about what I went through in my 20s, that cannot be called an MLC by any definition, but it was a horrible time and when I got through I was just so grateful to not have caused more damage that I didn't want to talk about it at all, save to say that I was a mess and I got through.  I concentrated on what was to come, not on what had been. 

Just a thought. 

[WHY]

This totally makes sense.  I just wonder how there isnt just one person on the entire planet, just one, that perhaps tried to get their LBS back and fell on the sword by talking about what happened and trying to help others.

Something doesnt feel right here.

I know we keep saying that the love is deep down in MLCer but they cant access it because of depression.  But what if its not.  What if they do change into a completely different identity, and then that new identity needs to fall in love with LBS again just like when the couple first met.  Like basically dating a stranger again.

So they feel guilt about their actions after (not remorse), and the feelings of love (IF any) become newly formed.  So we keep saying "recovered", but perhaps they dont see it that way.

[UrsaMajor]

I know we keep saying that the love is deep down in MLCer but they cant access it because of depression.  But what if its not.  What if they do change into a completely different identity, and then that new identity needs to fall in love with LBS again just like when the couple first met.  Like basically dating a stranger again.

So they feel guilt about their actions after (not remorse), and the feelings of love (IF any) become newly formed.  So we keep saying "recovered", but perhaps they don't see it that way.

This is EXACTLY what has to happen is the Mid-Lifer has really done the work, has chosen to try to reestablish the relationship, and the LBS is amenable to that decision. Both the Mid-Lifer and the LBS have, assuming that each has done the work needed, have changed, have grown, have "matured."  As one former Mentor's Tagline said, "One does not make the trip to Hades and back without learning some transferable skills." 

Neither the Mid-Lifer nor the LBS are the same people they were before BD or, if they are, then the return will be short-lived because the underlying cause of the MLC (at least on the part of the Mid-Lifer) has not been dealt with. Both the Mid-Lifer and the LBS have to make the CONSCIOUS decision to "try again"  and to see if the "new and improved"  version of the person formerly known as "Spouse"  is someone they are still interested in.

However, in the grand scheme of things, "what-if'ing"  serves about as much purpose as trying to taste green... with your elbow... What-if'ing is just another term for "Monkey-braining."

As far as the Mid-Lifer "falling on their sword and trying to help others," one has to remember that someone in an MLC does not WANT help. After all, in their distorted world view, the problem lies with the LBS and everyone else.... not to mention it is a VERY hard first step... sort of like standing up at an AA meeting for the first time and introducing yourself with "Hi, my name is <name> and I am an alcoholic."  except that alcoholism is a recognized mental / physical illness. A Mid-Life Crisis is still considered by most to be the inability of an old guy to keep his pants around his waist to put it bluntly.

[WHY]

Yeah but you have ex drug addicts.  Ex gambling addicts.  Ex alcoholics. All helping others to avoid the same mistakes they made. 

Yet not a single MLC recovery group.  No blogs.  No YouTube vids.  Something doesn’t smell right here.

Where are the other literally millions of other Shocksis’s on the planet?

[KayDee]

Is this perhaps an issue of terminology? You will find much more on recovering from depression and often times the person speaks about the damage they have done to relationships. The Storied Mind often comes up on this forum. He doesn't state having a MLC (and he is a long-term depression sufferer) but there are many, many parallels in his story. Same with Ann Sheffield's Depression Fallout. I have read other blogs, framed by a depressive crisis but not termed an MLC by the author, that have strong parallels. MLC can be met with eye-roll as it is often seen, in the general population, as almost an indulgence - sometimes comically so. A friend of mine, a guy in his late fifties, who knows my situation, joked with me recently that he was late having his MLC (I let this go  ). If someone has gone through something as painful and frightening as this type of crisis, they may not term it as MLC themselves because they don't recognise  their situation in the more cliched symptoms that are widely out there. And, for the same reason, they may not want to describe what they went through as MLC, for fear of having the experience belittled. I don't know, it's just a hunch. I also agree with T&L about recovery emphasis, and on issues relating to shame. I consider what my H is going through is a major depressive crisis at mid-life.  A perfect storm scenario.

A final thought - isn't much of the theory on HS based on the writing of Conway, who is a survivor of MLC and wrote a book (and also a blog I think) to help both MLCers and LBS.

[xyzcf]

I consider what my H is going through is a major depressive crisis at mid-life.  A perfect storm scenario.

I agree KayDee and I also feel it is related to Developmental Stages of the Life Span (Erik Erickson) with a much stronger response than someone who is not in crisis. The perfect storm as you say, fear of getting older or dying, children leaving, loss of important people in their lives, biochemical changes, stress, spiritual crisis...all culminating in a "break" of sorts.

I remember back when I was a teenager and not a very nice person to my parents..no reason, they were very good parents....I remember when my daughter was 16...wanted to give her away. Both my daughter and I went through this stage and then i ended and we became "normal" again. It's a small example perhaps of a similar type of thing.

I have empathy for their "depression" and the stories I have read of MLCers who do write about their experience makes me very glad that I am not the one in crisis.

Yes, RCR did base some of her work on Jim Conway's Men in Midlife crisis. She also studied various other psychology theories, lived through it herself and accumulated years of studying other stories of MLCer's via what has been posted here.

The damage done to the LBSer is significant and so both MLCer and LBSer are going to be greatly changed by this.

[WHY]

The idea of the original love still being inside, just suppressed due to depression, is a critical concept for me.  If this IS the case, then I believe its worth the LBS enduring the mental torture required to keep your marriage together, especially with an at-home, low energy wallower. 

However, if a completely new love needs to form after MLC, then I think it makes more sense to fully let them go, D, live separate lives for a few years until they're recovered (which would likely be a shorter period than if they were home), then see if you can fall in love again as completely different people.  This to me would appear to offer a better chance at reconciliation.

These two concepts have a massive impact on the LBS mental well being and choice to D or not.  I wish there was an answer to this.  And that's why I've been trying to find answers from more recovered MLCers.  Yet they barely exist. 

[WHY]

Has anyone ever heard of EMDR therapy being used in the case of MLC.  I found a YouTube vid about MLC and there were a lot of comment saying how this therapy helped people with their issues. 

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/22641-emdr-therapy

[UrsaMajor]

Has anyone ever heard of EMDR therapy being used in the case of MLC.  I found a YouTube vid about MLC and there were a lot of comment saying how this therapy helped people with their issues. 

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/22641-emdr-therapy

Treasur swears by it

[Thunder]

Hi WHY,

You did mean EMDR therapy for the LBS, right?  Not for the MLCer.

[WHY]

Hi WHY,

You did mean EMDR therapy for the LBS, right?  Not for the MLCer.

Hey!  No for the MLCer.  To unlock hidden CPTSD issues which possibly resulted in their MLC.

[xyzcf]

Most MLCers do not acknowledge that there is anything wrong with them. Unless they themselves are wanting to receive therapy, it's highly unlikely they would go.

[UrsaMajor]

Hi WHY,

You did mean EMDR therapy for the LBS, right?  Not for the MLCer.

Hey!  No for the MLCer.  To unlock hidden CPTSD issues which possibly resulted in their MLC.

Mid-Lifers? Get therapy? Seriously?

WET CLEAN UP ON AISLE 5 PLEASE!

Why should a Mi-Lifer need therapy? After all, the LBS is the one that is responsible for their misery 

[Treasur]

Why, yes I am a fan of EMDR as part of dealing with embedded trauma, although things like CBT, NLP and different kinds of somatic therapy can work well too.

Intellectually I see no reason why it wouldn’t be useful to anyone trying to unhook themselves from old traumas, MLCer or not. However, where that idea falls over I think is that most MLC behaviour suggests that they have already selected a different approach towards dealing with it....one of avoidance and external solutions rather than internal ones. I’m not quite sure how one could usefully do any kind of solid trauma work without stopping to see it as more of an internal job than an external one, if that makes sense? And who knows, maybe for some of these folks, the external fix works just well enough for long enough that it never reaches that kind of ‘do or die’ stage? I know that by the time I got to EMDR, I would have stood on my head whistling Dixie if someone told me it might work bc I simply could not bear to live much longer in the skin I was in at that time.  jmo though.

[WHY]

Why, yes I am a fan of EMDR as part of dealing with embedded trauma, although things like CBT, NLP and different kinds of somatic therapy can work well too.

Intellectually I see no reason why it wouldn’t be useful to anyone trying to unhook themselves from old traumas, MLCer or not. However, where that idea falls over I think is that most MLC behaviour suggests that they have already selected a different approach towards dealing with it....one of avoidance and external solutions rather than internal ones. I’m not quite sure how one could usefully do any kind of solid trauma work without stopping to see it as more of an internal job than an external one, if that makes sense? And who knows, maybe for some of these folks, the external fix works just well enough for long enough that it never reaches that kind of ‘do or die’ stage? I know that by the time I got to EMDR, I would have stood on my head whistling Dixie if someone told me it might work bc I simply could not bear to live much longer in the skin I was in at that time.  jmo though.

So the person needs to want it to work, for it to work?   Even if you could convince your MLCer to go, it wouldn’t work unless they really wanted it?  Kind of like couples counseling I guess.  I was just hoping that someone had tried this type of therapy on a MLCer and saw some sort of breakthrough.   I mean 100 years of MLC an nothing has worked?

I guess I’m really bought into the concept of MLC because I started living with an alien overnight and the script is real. 

However, I’m much more skeptical about recovery or end game and if it’s worth standing at all.  All I have to go on is shocksis and a few others here that said they “loved their LBS all along”.

But 2 data points don’t make a trend.   And it sounds like the vast majority go on to live different lives.  They essentially change, heal, and no longer want their old life. 

So why endure the torture of standing.  Why do we teach/promote standing here at HS if the smart move is to move on?

[Treasur]

I’m not sure everyone here promotes standing. I think we accept peoples’ wish and choice to do so if, with time, that choice works for them and help them consider how to do it in a healthy way if that is their choice. And we understand that most come here initially standing and hoping for reconciliation, but that for the vast majority of us - for a variety of reasons - that’s not how it works out.

Tbh I am less concerned about whether or why people stand. I don’t see it as my business either way. I am concerned though about how any LBS gets back on their feet practically and emotionally after such a huge and painful life-altering experience. And the truth is, standing or not, the future is not yet known in all kinds of ways so I think we have to find a way to make the best we can of what is currently in front of us. Often, maybe usually, that seems to involve turning our attention away from our ex/spouse including whether they ‘recover’ or whether they want to restore a relationship in the future or not. Acorn, another poster here who is reconciled, has mentioned more than once that there is a flaw in assuming that recovery (whatever that means to you or the MLCer) = restoration of the relationship. That perhaps it is more sensible to treat them as separate things if we really accept that their issues were about them, not about us or the marriage even if those were collateral damage. So, I can imagine a situation where my xh recovered enough to, for the wont of a better term, not be bars&it crazy and weirdly entitled and destructive/self destructive without any kind of reconnection with me or any of his old life at all....well, intellectually at least, hard to imagine what that would actually feel like to be in those shoes after taking a flamethrower to your old life and the people in it lol.

All that has changed for me, years on, is that I have no skin in the game about it. It wouldn’t change anything for me at all if that makes sense? He was very important to me so writ large I suppose I think that his being a more healthy, kind and grown up human would be a nice thing....and tbh I think the world would be better with a few less dysfunctional folks 

[xyzcf]

I guess I’m really bought into the concept of MLC because I started living with an alien overnight and the script is real.

However, I’m much more skeptical about recovery or end game and if it’s worth standing at all.  All I have to go on is shocksis and a few others here that said they “loved their LBS all along”.

But 2 data points don’t make a trend.   And it sounds like the vast majority go on to live different lives.  They essentially change, heal, and no longer want their old life.

So why endure the torture of standing.  Why do we teach/promote standing here at HS if the smart move is to move on?

Standing does not equal having a restored marriage. Just like any other thing we do, standing doesn't affect the MLCer's journey.

Treasur is right. HS supports all who come here. I don't think there is any place that I have read that promotes the idea that somehow standing will increase your odds of having your spouse return.

Because this is not about you or your marriage, it is quite possible that the MLCer does still love us. I have experienced this and it's quite confusing. Many have said so to their LBSer and although that doesn't make sense, then why don't they return?

There are a multitude of reasons. Accepting that they are truly gone, not "waiting" for them to show up sorry on our doorstep is very hard to accept.

As for why do we endure the "torture" of standing....as an example of one who is a stander after 13 years, it is not torture to me at all. It is a choice, deeply internal to my being and for me, what God has asked me to do.

Treasur wrote:

And the truth is, standing or not, the future is not yet known in all kinds of ways so I think we have to find a way to make the best we can of what is currently in front of us.

Indeed. I truly believe that nothing I or anyone else says or does will matter. I consciously made a choice to be open to his contact and that has been a blessing to my daughter and I. I have a full life, a different life than I imagined and different from my married friends....somehow I have found it difficult to find many single people to spend time with so the one thing that is still difficult is that I am lonely at times.....but life holds lots of joys. I'd rather still be with my Beloved but I didn't get to decide that. That is his freedom, each one of us is entitled to that.

[WHY]

Previous Thread is here: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11923.150


I’ve seen RCR mention in multiple videos that we stand to get to a point where we’re healed enough, and of sound mind, to then decide what to do next.  This is such an important thing and I 100% agree.  Not to make any decisions out of pain or anger etc.  The LBS will suffer more if doing this.  So take the time to heal (which is different for everyone, maybe a year), then decide what you want to do with your stand. 

But here’s the second part.   All LBS hope for reconciliation.  We can try delude ourselves otherwise but deep down it’s what we want.  And if that’s the end goal, I question whether continuing to stand is the right approach.  Standing at this point will inevitably breed more anger and resentment on the LBS part as the MLCer continues to destroy those around them.  Possible creating so much destruction that there is nothing left to reconcile when the time comes.   We preach that we should fully let go.  So why not do it then and D, and let both live free to live their lives as they choose.  That way you can minimize compounding resentment on the LBS side, and the MLCer finally has the freedom to live they way they want to live.

I also think this full D allows the MLCer to live untethered from the LBS.  it becomes harder to blame the LBS for the way they still feel.  And I believe they’re more likely to self reflect sooner (ie shorten the journey through the tunnel).

And the LBS can live free and no longer be a victim.  GAL.  Date if they chose.  Pursue a life without resentment.

And at that point, years down the line, IF the MLCer heals, I genuinely believe this situation has a better chance of reconciliation. 

However, I have seen RCR mention in her videos that if D takes place, that reconciliation is less likely.   I assume this is from evidence collected over the years.  And I’d love to understand this concept more as it seems to conflict with what I honestly believe would be a better approach.  Is there a way to tag RCR in this thread?

Treasur - as you said, for the vast majority here, reconciliation does not take place.  For me I think it would be helpful to understand what could be the possible reasons.  Is it that the MLCer has become a different person altogether and the marriage is no longer compatible.  Possible.  The MLCer never heals?  Probable.  But I think it has more to do with the destruction where LBS says they don’t actually want to reconcile.  Because again, resentment and too much destruction has taken place. 

So perhaps it would be possible to increase the odds of reconciliation by actually fully letting go, like we preach, and D.

Also what you said about Acorn.  Thank you for mentioning this.  I had forgotten this concept and it’s great you bring it up.  Fully agree. The one MLCer I’ve spoken to in person never healed.  And this is just another layer of the reconciliation puzzle that’s stacked against us.  And in what scenarios does the MLCer have a better chance of self repair.  Staying married for years while having an affair?  Or living fully on their own to hit rock bottom sooner?  I think the latter.  Rock bottom is a slow process if you have the safety net of a marriage and a LBS spouse that’s standing.

Anyway these are just thoughts the come to mind.  Each situation is different.  Each MLCer is different.  I just think it would be helpful to look at the data collected on HS for over a decade, about which approaches worked.  And those that did not.

Perhaps others could help me populate.

Whether to D or not if you deep down hope for reconciliation:

Pros:
1) LBS lives a life without further resentment
2) breaks away from the destruction the MLCer causes so that LBS does not hit that point of no return
3) likely MLCer will hit rock bottom sooner and progress through tunnel faster
4) the MLCer needs to heal to have a shot at reconciliation. And who knows if this will ever happen!?  So this fact alone largely supports D

Cons:
1) RCR mentions D has a lower chance of reconciliation.  Need to understand Y?
2) MLCer could meet someone else that can delay the rock bottom process for years.

[Ready2Transform]

So why endure the torture of standing.  Why do we teach/promote standing here at HS if the smart move is to move on?

Just to add to the things I absolutely agree with that Treasur and xyzcf have said, the main site used to say something along the lines of working toward minimizing the number of divorces as one of the main missions of standing (not those exact words, but that was the gist of it).

I didn't particularly care about divorce in general being eradicated, as I'm not anti-divorce at all, but I definitely didn't want one myself (initially). So that mission served me at the time and I ate up all of the standing info I could get.

Even if you could convince your MLCer to go, it wouldn’t work unless they really wanted it?  Kind of like couples counseling I guess.

Think about it like addiction, too. You can have an intervention with a loved one who is an addict or an alcoholic, but they're going to have to wake up to their need for help themselves. You could put them in the best rehab facility in the world, and nothing about being there would have any effect if they didn't become part of the process too, of their own volition. Sucks for everyone involved, because we are so willing to work with them to heal these marriages and get back on track, even when WE are the ones who are taking the hit with the infidelity, financial and emotional abuse, etc. But, to borrow from "the script" they all enjoy speaking from so much, "It is what it is."

[xyzcf]

We are divorced. My husband has been totally free to live as he wished for 13 years .... so I am not sure why you think that a divorce allows them to move more quickly through the crisis.....or that somehow you are restricting them if you are not divorced.

Standing at this point will inevitably breed more anger and resentment on the LBS

Not true for me.

And the LBS can live free and no longer be a victim.  GAL.  Date if they chose.  Pursue a life without resentment.

I don't live my life with resentment. I am not living as though I am a victim.

I do believe that my husband had a crisis, I do believe this was not his "fault" and not mine either. I do believe that there is so much we do not understand, when a loving spouse of 32 years wakes up one morning and tells you you have to go without any warning and without any willingness to work on whatever the problem is....so perhaps I am more willing to distance myself from his crisis....we often say live as though he/she  is never coming back.

 

Rock bottom is a slow process if you have the safety net of a marriage and a LBS spouse that’s standing.

I don't think it matters..they don't care and our actions don't impact them unless perhaps we continue to pursue them and engage in trying to convince them they are wrong.

Standing is a personal decision that most people will not continue with. It's not something to be "used" to hurry them up or that somehow will be harmful to the stander.

If you have problems with the concept of standing, if you feel you want to date and find another partner then do this because it's what you want...and not to have an influence on your spouse.

The "data" you are asking for, it has been discussed several times but it's not any real data because we have no idea how many people never continue to post on HS.....it would all be circumstantial and way to many variables to be statistically significant.

You are right about this WHY "And the LBS can live free" ..live and be free...they left the marriage, probably long before they ever told us so live what you see is right for you..for nothing I have seen will bring them back unless they find their way themselves.

[Songanddance]

So why endure the torture of standing.  Why do we teach/promote standing here at HS if the smart move is to move on?

3 very different things here. 
1. For some LBsers there is no torture in standing - it is what they choose to do because it suits them at that time and choosing to stand is always a daily decision whether the LBSer be divorced or watching as I did the stay at home MLCer carry on the affair.
2. Teaching is very different from promoting. Teaching is helping people understand what standing is and that's what RCR advocates - knowledge and understanding before action.
3. Promoting is a very proactive process and urges people to follow accordingly.  Here at HS we don't "promote" standing - if we do promote then we promote the opportunity to learn about standing and then encourage the LBsers to make their own decisions based on what they believe and understand.

I stood for my marriage until H and I separated.  I am still technically married but we are legally separated.  We might D - we might not. All I know is that I stood for over 8 years and then one day felt no longer the need to do so.

As XY says - all data on here is circumstantial and only based on what the LBS tells us. Many of the LBS stories on here are not always the full facts  and there's nothing wrong with that. HS is not a professional counselling or marital guidance service and neither is it the world's authority on MLC and TBH - every MLCer may stick to script but their own journeys through the crisis are unique.

RE EMDR for MLCers - if I could do GIFS I would echo UM's.  Having had EMDR twice and having looked at something that I didn't really want to face in my own demons ; I can say it is not for the faint hearted. It is certainly something that you need to be completely prepared to be open and honest with and you also need not to be afraid to allow your vulnerability to emerge and take over.  Immediately after EMDR - I was an emotional wreck.  Later that day I felt freed from that part of my life that had caused me pain.  I now accept and understand that part of me so much better. 
Could an MLCer right in the height of their crisis handle it?  NOPE!

My H has, since his stroke, had a form of counselling/therapy for his post stroke depression and he has become a slightly better person. However, when I asked if he had begun to address any of the issues in his past,  such as his teenage crises or even his affair,  he said said that it's not really something he wants to discuss with the counsellor - because "it's none of their business" .  As a technical engineer, he wants one practicable and logical solution to his depression and even now almost 2 yrs on from his stroke cannot accept that depression is a process and not a tick box.
How on earth he will ever face the other demons in his life is beyond me and more importantly it has never been my problem (standing or not)- it's all on him.

[WHY]

So if a MLCer never heals.  Does this mean they don’t reach the depression / acceptance phase?

And if they never face the depression stage.  Are they stuck in replay to the grave?

[Songanddance]

So if a MLCer never heals.  Does this mean they don’t reach the depression / acceptance phase?

And if they never face the depression stage.  Are they stuck in replay to the grave?

No not necessarily stuck in replay.   The largest section of the MLC crisis is Escape and Avoid of which replay is a part.  Escape and Avoid is a comfort zone for the MLCer.  It is where some of them may poke their heads out for a long period of time, recognise the wrongs they have done but do nothing about resolving them or healing themselves. 
For some MLCers escape and avoid is like the frog in the pot of water.  Put a frog into boiling water - it'll jump out. Put a frog into cold water and very very slowly warm the water up but never reach boiling and it will adjust and stay there.

Replay is continuing to act out, carry on the affair or to bounce from one OP to another or from one distraction to another. At some point for almost all MLCers - this will stop but it doesn't mean they are coming out of Escape and Avoid - it just means that they have stopped or seriously reduced the high energy go go go approach whether that's in physical movement, language or emotional behaviours.

This is why stage watching is never advised.  It's useful to know so that once you understand the process of MLC you can detach healthily and make observations about your MLCer but it is not a hard and fast guaranteed rule.

Some MLCers will never get out of replay. Some will wallow for years after a high energy burst. Some will be quiet, withdrawn and maybe go backwards for a long time,; there is no one way through the crisis.

Escape and Avoid is always there and only burns through when the MLCer has genuinely begun to heal and fully recognise or even atone for his/her actions.   Reconnection can happen in the latter stages of escape and avoid as long as the LBS recognises that reconnection is no guarantee of reconciliation and treats reconnection for what it is - re-connecting except for on a marital, deeply emotional level.
 For me Reconciliation is the desire to be and work together no matter what. The desire by the MLCer and LBS to truly work on a deeper more meaningful, honest relationship no matter how hard it is.

So what can the LBser do ? Nothing - nothing at any point except step back, pursue your own life, create new dreams and desires and live as if they are not coming back. Then if they do - you are ready to know that you know that you know that it is what you want to and are prepared to do the hard work WITH them.

[Thunder]

All very true, Song.

WHY you also need to keep in mind this crisis is all about depression, it's not one of the stages.
They will try to run from feeling that depression, which usually comes in the form of Escape and Avoid.
But no matter how hard and fast they try to run from it, that depression goes with them, until they do the inner work they need to do.  That could take a very long time.

[WHY]

All very true, Song.

WHY you also need to keep in mind this crisis is all about depression, it's not one of the stages.
They will try to run from feeling that depression, which usually comes in the form of Escape and Avoid.
But no matter how hard and fast they try to run from it, that depression goes with them, until they do the inner work they need to do.  That could take a very long time.

If they don’t heal.  Do they remain depressed for the rest of their lives?

[marvin4242]

If they don’t heal.  Do they remain depressed for the rest of their lives?

You are getting excellent feedback from everyone here. I just wanted to jump in and say in my opinion it is not a simple depression. Depression is a side effect of the more fundamental internal fracture that happens in what we generally call "MLC." As strange as it sounds depression is just a symptom of something much more profound.

They can try to address the depression by activity, affairs, thrill seeking, spending money etc. They may just wallow in it. I believe even if you had a magic "solution" and fixed the depression you will fundamentally change nothing. The core components that have fractured, things we see outwardly as depression, anxiety, anger, acting out, wallowing are still there. Ones who never get to healing the core trauma will just shift from one combination of these states to another (like my wife, she can be depressed, she can be angry, she can be in replay, and on rare occasions she almost is like who she was). But it doesn't mean she is "baking" or "healing." It just means we are seeing a different facet of the kaleidoscope that is their internal state.

[WHY]

If they don’t heal.  Do they remain depressed for the rest of their lives?

You are getting excellent feedback from everyone here. I just wanted to jump in and say in my opinion it is not a simple depression. Depression is a side effect of the more fundamental internal fracture that happens in what we generally call "MLC." As strange as it sounds depression is just a symptom of something much more profound.

They can try to address the depression by activity, affairs, thrill seeking, spending money etc. They may just wallow in it. I believe even if you had a magic "solution" and fixed the depression you will fundamentally change nothing. The core components that have fractured, things we see outwardly as depression, anxiety, anger, acting out, wallowing are still there. Ones who never get to healing the core trauma will just shift from one combination of these states to another (like my wife, she can be depressed, she can be angry, she can be in replay, and on rare occasions she almost is like who she was). But it doesn't mean she is "baking" or "healing." It just means we are seeing a different facet of the kaleidoscope that is their internal state.

Excellent point.  Although, there are some MLCers who have recovered, yet still do not know what their internal trauma was.  Seems like opinions are divided on the root cause.  A lot say childhood trauma that they deal with and heal.  Others say they have no idea and still heal.

What does this then mean?  Their healing isnt directly related to dealing with their childhood trauma, but something else?

[Treasur]

Reinventing - thanks for reading the study.   I couldn’t make sense of it on my phone ha.  Good to know the background.

T - appreciate your candid comments.  As for what I’m seeking?  To answer the question of whether it makes sense to remain married or not.

Not sure we understand enough about the details of your current situation, Why, to translate general to specific in how we respond to some of your questions? Which maybe doesn’t matter so much bc in the end that decision rests on a whole bunch of individual priorities and perspectives, doesn’t it?

Fwiw I think it’s worth considering how ‘sustainable’ you can make it if you choose to stand....anecdotally those who stand with any degree of success seem to be able to create an independently sufficiently solid financial, emotional and practical way of living that it can’t be thrown off track completely by their MLC spouse. And of course not everyone is in a situation where they can do that. Or indeed are free to make that choice. Don’t know what your situation is and the details may matter in that judgement.

If your standing is contingent on some more certain MLC timescale, or indeed a guarantee that your spouse is in MLC and will come out of it in a couple of years, i’m not sure that any answer here can give you that certainty. Based on anecdotal evidence if I were a betting woman, most marriages will not survive this kind of unravelling by a spouse for a variety of reasons and the uncertainty of it is hard to navigate.  My take fwiw is to do what you believe is best for you and any children you have based on the information currently available to you and choose to keep a door open to your spouse after doing that if you wish to do so and for as long as it feels right to you to do so. Quite a lot of us here stood until we reached a point when it no longer felt appropriate to do so or until the scale of damage caused became unsustainable for a good healthy life, so no one here will judge you either way.

On a slightly separate note, how are you doing in yourself? I assume that you don’t want to share the specifics of your situation which is of course fine, but this kind of experience can take a toll on most of us particularly in the first year or so. How might we best support you as an LBS?

[Rollercoasterider]

However, I have seen RCR mention in her videos that if D takes place, that reconciliation is less likely.   I assume this is from evidence collected over the years.  And I’d love to understand this concept more as it seems to conflict with what I honestly believe would be a better approach.  Is there a way to tag RCR in this thread?

No there's not--though that would be a good feature to have. But as you can see, I'm here. You can also PM me and just be patient...the system typically sends me an email notification when I get PMs. It didn't used to do that and so I'm still skeptical as I did nothing to get it finally working, it just started working around a year ago or so! I've really just scanned through the thread. Basically the answers you've been given about data from Xyzcf and others are what I would offer as well. I'm just a one-person operation along with the mods and so I don't have the capacity for scientific research and data collection on the level I'd like.
Why is reconciliation lower after divorce?
It's only a guess, but for many divorce is likely a psychological barrier. There are, of course, the divorces that go through after a few years and Standers are less likely to continue Standing as time goes by.

You've referenced my videos, so that was actually my reason for posting. I wanted to make sure you know about the videos so you can either submit a question or watch as they may answer many of your questions.
I just stickied two new threads to the top--one about additional HS resources and another about my Membership, so I encourage you to go to the top of the Community Board and check out those posts for the information and links.

[WHY]

I’ve watched all your vids and they’re great.  Thanks RCR.

What would be interesting is to have a sticky with a table, say for 2022, with all the users that come here during that year, with columns for BD date, move out date, D date, energy type etc etc, and whatever else cloud be relevant.  And then easily view those tables say 5 years down the line.  And perhaps try reach the LBSs if no updates how been provided where things ended up.

That would give you an idea of how many LBSs came to the forum that year, how many disappeared, and perhaps a lot of good data on where they ended up.  And perhaps encourage users to update their data for the greater good.

This would be invaluable and there’s a PHD/Pulitzer in here somewhere, I just know it.  There’s not enough of a spotlight on this MLC tragedy.

[Rollercoasterider]

The platform does keep user statistics, but nothing specific to MLC, just user data--how many posts, time online...
What you're interested in is an MLC Survey. I had one--technically it's still out there. I stopped actively collecting because of BIG dreams for making it fancier--like the ability to resend every so many months, and some better features to go with questions. My survey was basic--not even calendars for inputting dates, people had to manually input and that meant there was always a confusion because some do month/date/year and others do date/month year! I said to write it out, but most didn't. And other little things like asking not to take survey until 12 months after Bomb--better able to know contact type. Better would be more frequent follow-ups for the first year, somewhat frequent for the next two and then every year or so thereafter. It's one of many dreams! the features I want (not counting follow-up features) cost quite a bit--as there are companies dedicated to quizzes and surveys.

[UrsaMajor]

Also, occasionally, depending on the LBS, before I relegate a thread to the archives (if a thread has had no interaction for a year, it is a candidate for archival), I'll PN the thread owner and ask how they are and if anything is new. If they don't answer/update their thread in a couple of weeks, then I archive it. I won't chase them but a gentle reminder that we are still here.  I do this mostly for LBS's that were active and have several posts. One-post wonders or those that never go beyond the first "page"  in posting, usually end up getting sent to the archives straight away.  Occasionally (not often) an LBS will respond or update their thread...

UM

[WHY]

Are there any resources that describe how a MLCer heals?

It’s easy for LBS to drop the rope, GAL,  not my problem etc.  But I wonder IF the time comes for the MLCer to heal.  If the LBS can play a bigger role in guiding them?   Like helping to highlight FOO issues etc?  If LBS had an understanding of the self work process.  Then maybe they can help?

I’m concerned about some MLCers never doing the self work and I’d be curious to understand which ones heal, and which ones don’t, and why. 

[UrsaMajor]

Are there any resources that describe how a MLCer heals?

It’s easy for LBS to drop the rope, GAL,  not my problem etc.  But I wonder IF the time comes for the MLCer to heal.  If the LBS can play a bigger role in guiding them?   Like helping to highlight FOO issues etc?  If LBS had an understanding of the self work process.  Then maybe they can help?

I’m concerned about some MLCers never doing the self work and I’d be curious to understand which ones heal, and which ones don’t, and why.

I am not sure that there is a "one size fits all" way that an MLC'er "heals."  Each MLC'er has there own issues that they have to deal with and each has their own ways of dealing with them (or not as the case may be).

You are correct in saying that some (perhaps lots or most?) MLC'ers do not do the self work that they need to do in order to "heal" because they see no issue with their behaviour or they simply can not/will not look at their actions in any sort of critical light. They feel they are justified in their actions and there is nothing wrong with them.

Those that DO heal have to deal with a great deal of shame and remorse. That is not something that people generally want to share with the world. It is hard for them to deal with those they have emotionally injured, let alone hang their dirty laundry out there for all to see.

More importantly though, learning how an MLC'er heals doesn't really do much to promote the healing of the LBS. Instead, it encourages "Stage Watching"  and moves the focus toward the Mid-Lifer and away from the LBS where it belongs because the LBS has ZERO control over what the MLC'er does. The LBS can only control what they do themselves for their own healing.

[Treasur]

UM’s post reminded me of an old joke when I was a baby management consultant….’how many consultants does it take to change a lightbulb? One….but the lightbulb has to have decided they really want to change!’

I would guess MLCers heal pretty much the same way any damaged human heals…by reaching a point when they desperately don’t want to stay as they are, by taking responsibility and agency for what they did and what they are going to do next which is different, by understanding any skewed thinking or beliefs that got them to a place they don’t like or want to be. We tend to believe that external consequences have a big effect but I’m not sure that’s entirely so. Or it is, but as a second order thing. First, the lightbulb really really wants to change bc it’s no longer ok to live where/as it is…..and one of the characteristics of MLC folks seems to be that they invest a lot in external fixes to avoid just that. No different imho from addicts or alcoholics or folks who repeat any toxic damaging patterns….probably not very different either from most LBS.

The key thing though is that if and when, and indeed how, it happens is an inside job entirely…..

[Rollercoasterider]

UM’s post reminded me of an old joke when I was a baby management consultant….

A what? You were a baby management consultant?
What is that?
You consulted with immature managers?
You taught babies management skills? They might be better students than MLCers.

[Treasur]

Babies definitely better to work with than MLCers, RCR! Even with the pooping.....

[UrsaMajor]

UM’s post reminded me of an old joke when I was a baby management consultant….

A what? You were a baby management consultant?
What is that?
You consulted with immature managers?
You taught babies management skills? They might be better students than MLCers.

I now need to clean the coffee out of my keyboard...