Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: onmyfeet on June 03, 2010, 06:36:44 AM
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A friend gave me Jessica Bram's book, hoping it would help me feel that things after divorce aren't so bad. I actually felt angry after reading it. The book had some positive reviews but I wrote that I thought it was about an avoidable family catastrophe and a tragic journey, not a joyful one. See http://www.amazon.com/Happily-Ever-After-Divorce-Journey/product-reviews/0757307582/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/Happily-Ever-After-Divorce-Journey/product-reviews/0757307582/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1).
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That was an awesome review!
I have not read the book--and the topic so sickens me that I don't think I could read it. I want to write a screaming review and that wouldn't be fair.
Thanks.
What did you tell your friend?
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I haven't said anything to the friend yet, but may do so this weekend when I see her. This friend wants the best for me, but participates in the dysfunction by cutting my wife out of her life despite a good relationship in the past. All she can see is that "she hurt you" and refuses to reach out to her to help make the path back seem less daunting. That behavior by my friend is its own abandonment of me, and makes my wife's abandonment of me worse, not better.
As difficult as it would be, I think it would help the world if you would read Jessica Bram's book and then write a review on Amazon.
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I think that Standing is my way of saying to my wife, "We can do better". I refuse to tell our children that we just did the best we could, the best anyone could do or the best that can be done.
WE CAN DO BETTER!
A shattered family is NOT the best we can do.
I have a lot more to say about this, including a five page letter that I think judges should require the divorce-seeking spouse to read, out loud, in court, to children, friends, relatives, community members, unless there is intimidation and abuse by the left behind spouse. It's WAY WAY WAY too easy to use divorce as a relief valve for internal pain and pressure.
RCR, should I post the letter, or is that too long for the forum format?
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Do you have it on a web page. Just post a link to it.
I hear what you are saying but I don't think that a MLC'er hears anything, while they are in their crisis, that would turn them around.
Reading the letter in court would not accomplish anything IMHO. MLC is a process, NOTHING speeds it up.
I totally agree with your thoughts about a shattered family.
Just as an aside I was communicating with a man in Eygpt where it is illegal to get a divorce. His wife is in MLC. It doesn't really change anything for him, she still has to go thru the process.
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Onmyfeet,
I have a lot more to say about this, including a five page letter that I think judges should require the divorce-seeking spouse to read, out loud, in court, to children, friends, relatives, community members, unless there is intimidation and abuse by the left behind spouse. It's WAY WAY WAY too easy to use divorce as a relief valve for internal pain and pressure.
RCR, should I post the letter, or is that too long for the forum format?
Though OldPilot is correct that it might not help the MLC or relationship situation, I think writin a letter and even making it public can be personally cathartic--at least you feel you get to have your say. My Mom is one of those who encourages writing for cathartic purposes and then burning.
ARGH! I am a writer and burning something I write hurts, I mean hurts. This helps some, but for me part of the benefit is in the public sharing--otherwise it seems without purpose.
Definitely post the letter here. But understand that people may love it and yet recommend you not share it outside of the forum. This is the sort of topic I created the Discussion icon for--and oops, when I changed your original icon I meant to use the discussion, not the Off-Topic--I will correct that when done with this post.
I recommend you start a new topic for the letter. Make it so that you are inviting debate and discussion--hearing all sides of the matter. Maybe other will post similar letters.
One thing I did was created a reconciliation contract. I did it long before Sweetheart was ready, but made him review it when moving home even though he did not follow it.
(If anyone can get Braveheart over here...seriously. When I created the discussion category, I put Braveheart in my notes as the leader.)
I don't know if there's such a things as too long--especially since I've sometimes had posts that are 10 pages single-spaced garamond 12 pt in MS Word.
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I refuse to tell our children that we just did the best we could, the best anyone could do or the best that can be done.
I once read a quote from Dr. Phil. It has been in the back of my mind ever since.
"If you can look your child in the eye and honestly say that you did everything you could to save your marriage and their family, then it is okay to let go."
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Still
That is a wonderful benchmark for the LBS to use.
You are right it is about looking our children in the eye so as they know we fought hard to save the marriage. It is also about knowing that we did everything we could to save the marriage for ourselves. Only then will there be some amount of peace.
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I thought I’d start a thread based on a book I’m reading, “In Midlife” by Murray Stein. It’s Jungian in perspective. I will add quotes to all direct quotes. Please pick up the book if you’re looking to understand MLC more in depth, it’s very good and a great companion to “The Middle Passage” by James Hollis.
It may be helpful to some to discuss some of the concepts in here. Many of them can be found in a very easy to understand form on RCR’s resources and articles.
There are seven chapters.
1. Hermes, Guide of Souls through Liminality
2. Burying the Dead: The Entry into Midlife Transition
3. Liminality and the Soul
4. The Return of the Repressed during Midlife Liminality
5. The Lure to Soul-Mating in Midlife Liminality
6. Through the Region of Hades: A Steep Descent in Midlife’s Liminality
7. On the Road of Life after Midlife
This book was originally presented as an eight week seminar in 1980.
Chapter 1 introduces Hermes as our “guide” through Liminality. He defines liminality by using the Latin root limen meaning doorway or threshold, a borderline space. This brings to mind in my memory a Christian saying that we, as LBSs, are “standing in the gap.” In a very abstract, visual way, we can then see ourselves as standing in a gap between their worlds and ours, bridging the two, and this is where being the lighthouse or attractive force comes in.
The author brings up that subliminal comes from the same root word, referring to “a threshold between consciousness and the unconscious portions of the mind.”
An interesting note from this chapter, which I will quote in full, is this: “Inner ground shifts, and because the base is not firm a person can be easily influenced, pushed and blown about. A sudden happening will make a more than normally deep impression, like an imprinting. More malleable in liminality than otherwise, a person may carry the effect of such imprintings through the rest of a lifetime.” This seems to suggest that during liminality, we can have a strong impact on our MLCer. Let’s make sure that we use this to our advantage, but also that we do it with love, kindness, and without any thought of controlling them.
The author also introduces in this chapter the idea that a person lives the first half of their life presenting a face to the world, a persona, and the second half after midlife transition, becoming themselves.
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Chapter 2: Burying the Dead
The author here talks about how we all know about MLC happening, but just think it won’t happen to us. The theme of this chapter is separation.
Quoting: “As the midlife transition begins, whether it begins gradually or abruptly, persons generally feel gripped by a sense of loss and all of its emotional attendants: moody and nostalgic periods of grieving for some vaguely felt absence, a keen and growing sense of life’s limits, attacks of panic about one’s own death, and exercises in rationalization and denial.” He goes on to say sometimes the cause is obvious but sometimes it is not. Or even if a cause seems to be obvious, they keep looking for another cause, something deeper.
He mentions that typically the midlife falls between the ages of 35-50 and usually is at age 40. There are some features of it that are the same for all: “persistent moods of lassitude and depression, or feelings of disillusionment and disappointment either in life generally or in specific persons who have been formerly idealized; youth’s dreams of happiness and fulfillment melt away or are rudely shattered; death anxiety steals in, and a sense that time will run out before one can get down to ‘really living’ is frequently reported…” He then mentions physical aging and aging of children, who have more independence now.
During this period there is a lot of what he terms “restructuring” of the person and personality underneath them. He describes here how there is a breakdown of the “persona, a psychological structure that is the approximate equivalent of what Erik Erikson calls the psychosocial identity, accompanied by the release of two hitherto repressed and otherwise unconscious elements of the personality: the rejected and inferior person one has always fought becoming (the shadow), and behind that the contrasexual ‘other,’ whose power one has always, for good reasons, denied and evaded (the animus for a woman and the anima for a man)
Jung believed that a prolonged journey could lead one to finding themselves. He himself reinvented himself during his MLC. During this time, they make a shift from a “persona-orientation to a Self-orientation.” In other words, they become individuals for the first time ever, and are not just a reflection of their family, upbringing and societal roles.
He divides this transition into three stages: separation, liminality and reintegration.
He then spends a good deal of time talking about Hektor from the Iliad which is fascinating, but I’ll spare you the details. Basically, he’s a hero that goes into battle and dies, knowing ahead of time that he will, despite his wife begging him not to leave her a widow, because he can’t get away from the role that his people have put him in. He’s a hero because they say he is and he can’t not be a hero. He is essentially stuck in the first half of his life, never having attained individuation.
He states that a crack must appear in order for the crisis to begin, a moment of “conscious realization” to begin the separation that occurs in the beginning of the crisis. He goes on to say that a person may experience a crisis or critical defeat at midlife and not go into crisis, they may maintain the illusion that nothing is wrong, thereby propping up the corpse of their identity. He claims that if this happens, a certain “stench” can be detected and it becomes obvious to those around them. This is an incomplete separation from the earlier persona identification.
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I am considering putting this review on Amazon. It's long, but that's me.
This Is Not The Story You Think It Is is an apt title springing from her successful essay in the Modern Love column of the New York Times, I expected this book to be an expansion of the original essay which was, in general, about maintaining a marriage when one partner—in personal crisis—wants out. In her defense, I think that was the author’s intention.
On page 1 the reader learns that her “husband left last night to go to the dump after announcing that he isn't sure he loves me anymore... and nine hours later, still hasn't come back.” On page 70 the reader learns that he finally calls after about 32 hours. But once she completes her introductory chapter of thoughts about what she feels and is going to do, she wanders into backward reflection, reviewing their early courtship and marriage and their idealistic dreams of escaping privileged upbringings to be free. But page 70 does not resume the story; it is a line of reference breaking up her sentimental journaling.
Her references to privilege and idealism become long-winded in their repetition.
…Or maybe you could just forgive me now for being privileged and still having the audacity to claim there’s ever been pain in my life. And you’ll be kind. And I won’t have to write the damn chapter about WASP society. I’m sensitive about this. There’s nothing I loathe more on the page than poor-little-rich-girl syndrome. But I’m telling you—I grew up with some of the richest people in the world. And pain is pain is pain.
It is as though she has a fear that the world will not take her seriously because she came from privilege. The problem is that she lets that fear take over her book by commenting on it in various forms. It is not what the story is about. It may be an important part of her personal context and a well-edited mention may have helped to round out the story. But her description of she and her husband in their early marriages comes off as bohemian wannabes, lacking authenticity. Seattle excited them because it seemed to be snob-free. Is it? Or is it a different sort of snobbery, a reverse snobbery of artists with education and little money trying to be shabby chic. She describes Montana in similar tones, it wasn’t putting on airs. Her airs are about putting on airs.
Is she worried that the reader will not trust her story? Authenticity is in the telling and the fulfillment of the story’s promise made in the opening lines.
There is nothing wrong with journaling; it is a method of processing. But it is personal and thus may seem self-absorbed when made public.
It’s like when you want to confront someone and you’re advised to write the “bad letter” first. Then throw it away and write a new one. This book is the “bad letter.
At least she is aware. I agree that this book is the bad letter. Up to this point and beyond it, this book is thoughts, such as those that go through my head as I simmer prior to writing. They are frequently sentimental musings I edit away before putting pen to paper, or they go in my journal—which may be in an electronic and public format, but is still a journal.
The story resumes on page 126, but even then it is tidbits of the story between the author’s nostalgia of things past rather than her experience of things present. It is not until the page 14o, the 10th chapter, that the story becomes the focus of the content. Though it remains diffuse and unfocused, the relationship of the author with her husband in crisis remains the focal point for more than 100 pages. But on page 257, the 17th chapter, she starts to meander again.
As literature the meandering content is suitable for individual essays or for journaling, but to make a story—memoir is still story—it needs to be tighter, more focused. Perhaps then the problem is not the author, but her editor who either did not encourage or insist upon mass reduction of extraneous musing or who may have instead encouraged inclusion of the meandering to set the back story. But a story is a promise given in the opening lines and fulfilled throughout. The promised story in this circumstance was about the marriage through crisis. Yes, it was about choosing happiness and choosing not to suffer, but those concepts were nestled in the framework of the relationship. It is for this reason that I give this 3 stars—I was torn between 2 and 3.
But I write for the spouses of men and women who are in a midlife crisis—the left behind spouses who do not want their marriage to end. Though the authors’ skill in bringing the topic to the page was in my opinion lacking due to her lack of focus, I still feel this is an important topic and thus an important book for left behind spouses to read.
Laura Munson’s skill was in what she did. She stood for her marriage with an awareness I rarely see; she detached her emotions from those of her confused husband and invited peace. I work with left behind spouses; I was a left behind spouse and what Laura did is what I did and what I train those men and women to do. It often takes months and even years to find the state of calm she found immediately and most cases are not resolved within the span of a Summer, or even a year, or even two years. Perhaps Laura’s personal success in detaching and recognizing the crisis was not personal was due to her preparation in therapy. She seems to have had a rare therapist who trained her well.
She invited calm and yet it did not means she was without doubt, fear, frustration, anger… But she trusted her intuition and stepped aside. So I would like to look at some of the things she understood and did—or in some cases some of the things she refused to do.
I refuse to be in the position of oppressor.
This is a dance he’s doing. An aggressive one now. It’s one thing to be in pain and go off like a dying dog for awhile. … But he’s opting instead for something else, and I can see it plain as day. He’s trying to get me mad. So he can play victim to an irate wife.
This is a recognition of his projection. Most people do not grasp this initially and instead take it personally which fuels the fire. It is her detachment that enables her to “see it plain as day.”
“Do you think it’s another woman?” she says.
“I doubt it. He’s too firetrucked in the head right now to have another woman involved.”
Though Laura’s actions were well executed, her knowledge was not always accurate. I see many left behind spouses saying similar words. But that is often when there is infidelity. I am not saying confusion is a sign or symptom of infidelity. But men and women in midlife crisis are lost in their internal chaos are more susceptible to marriage predators. These vulnerable spouses are seeking the feeling created by infatuation—which they will interpret as being in-love. The infatuation chemicals are their addictive medicine for their midlife depression.
Let this [helicopter lessons] be what cures him.
Hope for a guide rather than a cure. There are no cures; life must be experienced.
But I know that I must slowly detach from outcome. Go slowly. Trust.
She verbalizes these ideas to herself, recognizing the power in her affirmations.
What can we do to give you the distance you need, without damaging our family?
She practiced that question with her therapist. It is perfect. If you are a left behind spouse who does not want your marriage to end, write down those words and practice them. For some the time where they can be used may have passed and yet it may also come again—because people in midlife crisis cycle.
…it’s common to get mean when we’re functioning on victimhood, rather than self-responsibility.
So you’re not going to let me have the place in town.
…Good God. He’s making this easy. I never said anything about letting or not letting you do anything.
She picked up in the key word letting. Most are not attentive and attuned enough to catch the subtleties of specific words. But to Laura it was easy. Most left behind spouses at that stage—early—are so attached and emotional that they might agree because they are still trying to control.
I’m afraid I’m going to have a breakdown. I’m losing my mind.
Honey. You’re already there. This is a breakdown. It’s what you do with them that counts.
…What can you commit to? I ask him, suddenly unafraid.
I can commit to our kids. I can commit to the garage studio space. I can commit to looking into helicopter school. I can commit to…I guess I can commit to a future with you. But not with any confidence…whatsoever.
This shows the desire and yet hopelessness within her husband. This is the hopelessness of depression. It is also a typical feeling of those in midlife crisis—though many do not verbalize it to their spouse who is too upset to be able to understand. He wants a future with his wife but doubts in the possibility.
How can he love me if he currently loathes himself?
Precisely. A person must be able to love their Self before they can love others.
Maybe he can find love for himself through his love for the children. And maybe, then, he can find love for me. I am going to live as though that has already happened.
That is her Acting As If affirmation. I believed it from the beginning—truly believed. Affirmations are meant for the present as though what you are saying is true now, to speak them otherwise would be to leave them in the past or to doom them to the eternal future—tomorrow.
But I was in this fog. Couldn’t see past my nose. I couldn’t deal. I just wanted out… But she’s clear. I still love him. That’s the problem. But…I firetrucked up. And now he’s moved on. … And for the most part, I’m alone. It firetrucking sucks.
This is common. Many of the midlifers who leave their spouses regret it in the end. It may not seem like they ever will, but once they come through the crisis and the fog clears, they look back at the life they left and the damage they did to make their hasty exit and they guilt and regret may send them into another depression.
I’m not treating him like he’s been bad. I’ve been this sort of bad, and I know that self-punishment is more than enough.
Many left behind spouses are so caught up in their attached emotions that they want their spouse to feel guilty, not just the healthy guilt, but they want him to feel the pain. They assume that it cannot rival their own pain and they want him to know what hurt feels like. They want his to feel the shame of his abusive actions. Most are not able to let go and trust so quickly. The pain of the midlifer is often significantly greater than the pain of the spouse left behind. The midlifer feels the guilt of leaving the family, he or she is now a bad or irresponsible parent with angry children and a new man or woman pressuring for commitment—and controlling since the midlifer has a spouse at home. The confusion was present before the angry and reactionary behaviours began; the new behaviours merely make the guilt and confusion worse. Laura knows this!
The fact that he’s doing things that are so unlike him has me know even more that this is a crisis of self.
It is this that gives many left behind spouses hope. The spouse in a midlife crisis often becomes his opposite—sometimes this opposite Monster is present only in moments or cycles and sometimes the Monster is always there. But this Monster is so clearly different, that it can enable the realization that you are the spouse of a sick person rather than someone in a bad marriage. It clicked for me a few weeks after the Bomb Drop when my husband’s erratic behaviour was cycling to various age-related personalities within minutes to a few hours of one another.
And here’s what I am convinced of. In fact, I think it’s the key to a relationship. Any relationship:
If you get out of someone’s way, they will fight and they will kick, but eventually, there’s nothing they can do but look at themselves and get real. Or totally self-combust in a life of lies. Or the dear opiate, denial.
Step aside and let them either transfer their projections to someone else (my personal choice is the affair partner), or look in the mirror. Eventually only the mirror will be left.
…abuse is just bait. To get you to be the one who freaks out.
It’s hard not to be a fish when someone is dangling a juicy accusation worm test-to-see-what-I-can-get-away-with worm at you. But if you eat even one worm, you are on the hook.
The next week I tell my therapist that I’m afraid I’m setting a new protocol that we’ll get stuck in.
Yes, this is the fear of cake-eating, enabling and wearing footprint patterned clothing. It is a risk. Laura walked the tightrope and her fears were real and valid. Her therapist helped her to determine boundaries:
I will not put up with violence. Or verbal or physical abuse of our children. I can play at this strategy for quite some time. … But I figure six months would be, for now, dignifiedly pragmatic.
That brings me to the last thing I feel needs a rating. What was the degree of difficulty for what Laura went through? People have referred to her husband as having a serious or even severe midlife crisis. Midlife crisis averages 2-7 years. Laura’s husband never left the home to live somewhere else and returned emotionally and mentally to the marriage within about four months—compared to the range of 24 -84 months. I know midlife crisis and from her descriptions her husband was behaving in typical midlife crisis fashion, that I will not deny. But perhaps he was on the brink and did not fall into crisis. Why? Was it because of how Laura handled the situation?
Partly, but she saved him by refusing to save him; she left him alone to rescue himself. To give her the credit is to discredit the other left behind spouses out there who make the right moves and yet their spouses still leave, still commit adultery, scream hate for a few years…Many in midlife crisis will simply transfer their projections to a willing scapegoat.
For the time Laura spent in the crisis, her degree of difficulty matched that of other left behind spouses—about a 4. The men and women I work with are 4-5. But living at that difficulty for a few months is a cake walk to those of us who lived it for the typical years-long range. And most of the left behind spouses I work with are dealing with infidelity—which exacerbates the problem.
Laura Munson accepted the process of her husband’s crisis and trusted in that process. Acceptance of the process has the benefit that it can shorten the crisis, but that is dependent on the midlifer looking in the mirror. Do your part as a left behind spouse and let the midlifer do their part—or choose to not face the mirror…yet. But a denial of the process will make it longer because a left behind spouse in denial remains attached to the spouse, begging-and-pleading and eating worms. The midlifer has no time for the solitude which is necessary for the mirror work.
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Great review. I had read the article a few months ago and was interested in reading the book. It sure did seem like she "got off easy" with the length of the crisis seeming to be only a few months.
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Thanks for this insightful review. I'd been reading about her story in the papers and wondered what the book would be like. I can certainly learn something from her attitude.
My H saw the story too, some time ago, and his attitude was to recognise similarities with his story, and wanted a wife like that (at that time, I was too busy ranting at him lying to go out with OW).
But yes, it does seem that she got off lightly.
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RCR thanks for a great review.All I will say is she got off lightly this time whos to say her H is complete in his crisis.MH will tell you how her H has appeared to dip in and out of crisis for some time.Maybe Laura journey isnt over yet?
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RCR, thank you very much. I was going to get the book and despite the obvious flaws, that I already suspected, I think I'll go pick it up tomorrow.
Let's see, now I'll be reading five books at once. LOL.
She did seem to get off easy, but she also did many things right, so let's give her credit for that.
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Can't wait to read this! I read this article last summer and had been very curious about the "length" of his crisis. It seemed so short compared to everything I've read. I was skeptical. It's nice to have that aspect of this crisis explored. I took a very similiar stance and yet the outcome for me has not been a spouse who has moved through the crisis. My experience has led to cake-eating, denial and cycling. Each MLCer is truly unique yet it's essential to understand the overall process to respond.
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For the time Laura spent in the crisis, her degree of difficulty matched that of other left behind spouses—about a 4. The men and women I work with are 4-5.
I question the use of the #4? Is this out of 10? Or 5?
You state that the LBS that you work with is 4-5. Is that almost the same?
Now I have not read the book and only going by your review and the NY Times letter.
To me on a scale of 1-5(5 being the worst).
Laura Munson's husband was a 1 or 2.
I believe most of the people you work with have far worse sich's than Laura Munson.
I would certainly include your husband in that group,only by what you have written.
Overall I think it is a great review of the book.
I also think that maybe the editors felt that MLC by itself was not as good a selling point as the first 140 pages.
BRAVO RCR!!!
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I question the use of the #4? Is this out of 10? Or 5?
You state that the LBS that you work with is 4-5. Is that almost the same?[/font][/size]
It is out of 5 because I was trying to be consistent to the Amazon rating system.
I considered putting all of us at 5, but I think 4-5 (4.5-5 really) gives those with epsecially severe Monster MLCers some validation. It is hard to have a depressed and low-energy MLCer who lives at home and pain is relative and each perosn will find difficulty in different places. But I think that a taunting Replayer who flaunts the affair in public is especially painful and frightening.
To me on a scale of 1-5 (5 being the worst).
Laura Munson's husband was a 1 or 2.[/font][/size]
I considered rating her degree of difficulty at a 2, but realized that I was doing that when considering the scale of time. Her husband during the brief crisis looks no different than any of the Newbies here who have a spouse at home and no infidelity...yet. He had typical Replay behaviours with projection and Monster spew as well as cycling. Her total degree of difficult over a short MLC--2 years would be diluted, of course. But I want to be fair to what she did experience even though it was brief.
At Bomb Drop Sweetheart's alienator was waiting in the wings, but it was not physical. What I experienced for the first couple months with his cycling, confusion, wanting me more and less all at the same time parallels Laura's experience.
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I believe that trying to work out the degree of difficulty in being the LBS is so subjective and all about the resilience of the spouse.
Laura Munson may think she had the MLCer from hell but we know that on the timing issue their journey was much much less than most of ours on the forum. Therefore it is also about whether any research into others journeys is taken into consideration. RCR and OP I know you will have this knowledge and therefore your scoring will be, I believe more accurate.
Joe/Josie Bloggs on the street may standardise her timings as accurate and feel there is no hope if their spouse takes longer to come back. Unless they look for answers and find this or other supportive forums.
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I'm confused. I searched for both Laura Munson and This Is Not The Story You Think It Is on Amazon, but didn't find either one.
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http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=munson%2C+laura&x=0&y=0
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I found this review interesting.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3HH1YPV4KCWYH/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3HH1YPV4KCWYH
Several points were just very interesting. Obviously this reviewer has no idea of MLC and it's trappings, but she does make some interesting notations.
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What did you find interesting? I agree some things were strange; that she didn't get a job, check her finances, that she went on holiday to Italy despite their financial situation. She doesn't sound like she's getting independent, just detached from her reality.
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Where the reviewer said that she found it strange that in the face of her H spewing at her, she never lost her composure.
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I’m not sure if I will put this on Amazon or not, but here are my comments to the post linked by MarkedandHealed.
It's been about 48 hours and they say reviews can take up to 48 hours to post. Mine is still not showing.
She engages in tortured rationalizations and denial.
Denial? Her husband never moved from the home, did not file for divorce and she continued therapy. People who Stand for their marriage amidst crisis with information are not all in denial. Some are and they display a lot more panic or dismissal than Laura Munson.
He stays out all night, stands up her and the children, insults her repeatedly, yet she rationalizes his behavior as a transient crisis.
Given the outcome, it seems she was correct that it was a transient crisis. Given her description of his behaviours it is obvious to some that it was a crisis—though absurdly mild. Four months is a cake-walk!
It's clear to the reader that she is a spoiled, materialistic, pampered woman…
No, it’s clear to you and some others, not all readers. I too saw the writing as self-absorbed, but then it was a journal that needed to be cut by over 50% and tightened from there.
Oh, she does toy with the thought that she would contribute by freelancing magazine articles, as if all she would have to do is submit and the depressed publishing industry would reward.
She’s a published magazine writer. No, it won’t provide riches, but it can provide something.
What she does do is take a one month vacation with her daughter to Italy. She feels entitled to this even though no money is coming into the household.
The vacation was before her husband’s announcement and with his approval. Though I wish I had such available funds to follow my bliss, but there are ways to follow it without spending as she did.
She is totally incurious about her husband's whereabouts at all times of the night.
This is not true. Curiosity and not asking are not synonymous.
She never seems to try to get a handle on what the family finances are and how long the savings will last.
Not certain how well either of them had a handle, but she referenced that her husband said they had six months.
She gives no thought to what she might do for a living (grad school, perhaps)…
Above you already referenced her thought—magazine articles.
She does not take an appropriate effort to protect her children from her husband's shenanigans…
Appropriate is relative and an opinion. A four month start of a crisis, I wish most left behind spouses were so lucky. Her calm responses rather than reactivity protected her children from what could have become a worse crisis and from the ravages of a possible divorce.
She never consults a divorce lawyer, even though the husband is sure that he wants to move out.
Obviously he’s not sure since he doesn’t ever do it. He mentions wanting out of the marriage and yet divorce doesn’t seem to be a major or even minor focus for him. Laura could have seen a divorce attorney to find out what to do in a just-in-case situation. But such a thing was not necessary and for someone who wants to remain married it can be dangerous at that stage. Sometimes an attorney will convince a person to file for divorce even when the goal is to save the marriage…because some say it is better for your protection if you file and you may be able to slow the speed of the process.
She has managed to elevate putting up with abuse into some sort of virtue, for this woman is so controlled that she never once raises her voice in the face of his monstrous behavior.
Because poking the Monster is the solution. That would merely incite an argument and make the situation worse.
The lack of humanity is creepy and what is equally creepy is that is she actually manages to keep her grandiose vision of herself intact and undamaged.
Lack of humanity? Where? The book is poorly edited and not high literature, but showing unconditional Grace, Agape and Forgiveness as Laura did is an example of humanity, not a lack.
What kind of woman would even want a man who was capable of treating his family so dismissively? How did she endure this?
How, it was a four month cake-walk. Endurance is the people who Stand for their marriage amidst a few years of crisis. Laura got off easy. What kind of woman would want…the kind who loves her husband, believes he is in crisis and will get through, who believes in her vows… Laura is not some lone wolf.
There are way too many missing pieces to this poorly-written story. She annoyingly addresses the reader directly throughout the book.
Yes, I agree that it was poorly written and addressing the reader annoyed me too. I had yuck written all over the margins.
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I think you should put it up; I like how it takes the other review on point by point.
But that perhaps is because that other review made my hackles rise....
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We were in therapy; five different therapists over the years. I didn't like one of them because he said his method was to "just try to get the couple to communicate." W didn't like any of the other four.
I completely missed that W was about to give up on the fifth one after giving up on the other four. I figured that no one would ever give up on a family as beautiful as ours. I got that one completely wrong.
Because really, there are very, very few people who can look their children in the eye and say that they've tried EVERYTHING to save their marriage.
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We were in therapy; five different therapists over the years. I didn't like one of them because he said his method was to "just try to get the couple to communicate."
We chose a marriage counselor that was listed as a Christian therapist. I had hoped that she would use scriptural references and biblical principles as her basis. She did not. Never used any references and didn't seem to have any way of applying those principles. In the end she said, "If you stay married or divorce......" Honestly, everything she said after that is a blur. Divorce was never mentioned by either of us.....
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I have to say that I read the book finally and although I found it to be a bit pretentious at points, it was like ordering up a therapist. I just felt stronger, more centered, more sure of my position in standing, after reading it.
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Men in Midlife Crisis by Jim Conway (I refer to this book all the time.)
Your Husband's Midlife Crisis by Sally Conway
Crossing the Soul's River: A Rite of Passage for Men by William O. Roberts, Jr.
Not necessarily an MLC book, but I have really gained a great deal from:
How to Save Your Marriage Alone by Ed Wheat, MD
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These are the books that I have read so far:
which I would reccomend to all
"Male Menopause" &"Surviving Male Menopause" by Jed Diamond.
"Men in MidLife Crisis" by Jim Conway
"Menopause" by Sally Conway
"The Wisdom of Menopause" by Christine Northrup
"Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman
"Divorce Busting", "Divorce Remedy", "Sex Starved Marriage" "Sex Starved Wife" by Michelle Wiener Davis
"His Needs, Her Needs" & ""Fall in Love, Stay in Love" by Willard Harley
"The Journey From Abandonment To Healing" by Susan Anderson
"What you feel you can Heal" by John Gray
Two I would NOT reccomend:
"The change : women, aging, and the menopause" by Greer, Germaine,
"Why we stay together : 20 writers on marriage and its rewards " by Jennifer Schwamm Willis,
These are two I am reading right now that have gotton good reccomendations:
"The Pain behind the Mask : Overcoming Masculine Depression" by Lynch, John,
"Silent Sons" by Ackerman, Robert J.
I also own this book but I haven't read it yet
"Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" by John Gray
If I had to pick 3, they would be the Connway book, Susan Anderson, and Jed Diamond.
followed closely by 5 Love Languages.
Hope that helps someone.
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I've read a lot of those; I also read "Getting the love you want" (Harville Hendrix) -- not mlc, but a good relationship book; "Irritable Male Syndrome" by Jed Diamond;
And these aren't mlc, but really helped me with my own issues: "Feeling Good" and "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns -- cognitive behaviour therapy; very useful for depression and LBS issues.
I'll go back and look through my titles -- I'm sure I have some that I wouldn't recommend as well.
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I am reading:
Men in Midlife Crisis by Jim Conway
Your Husband's Midlife Crisis by Sally Conway
Self-Esteem by Matthew McKay and Patrick Fanning
The Self-Esteem book is very clinical, but it gives great insight as to why we let the "inner critic" destroy us.
A tip, I get all my books on Half.com - it's a great place to buy used books for really cheap!
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For us dudes, Jim and Sally Conway also wrote a book that I refer to often called Women in Midlife Crisis. Neither Jim nor Sally Conway ever ran from their marriage (Sally has passed away and Jim is remarried), but as many of you know, Jim came close.
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For those of you who would like to talk to Jim in a LiveChat. Every Monday evening he chats with MLC'ers/LBS through the chatroom on his website.
It is www.midlife.com.
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Did Jim have an affair as part of his midlife crisis?
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No
Jim's writing and advice is very helpful though.
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Hollis, James. The Middle Passage: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife
Stein, Murray. In Midlife
Conway, Jim. Men in Midlife Crisis
I'm currently looking for the O'Connor book at a reasonable price.
And of course, I always recommend separate from midlife crisis Weiner-Davis, Michele. Divorce Remedy. I have given out dozens of these over the years with many people coming back to me and crediting it with saving their marriage. And Chapman, Harry. The Five Love Languages. However, that last book will not be useful in MLC until they come through.
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I have read most of the books already recommended, but there is also another one that I think merits being added to the list. It's called Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage by Mark Gungor. Now, obviously it's geared to couples who are working together on their marriage, but I learned a lot that I could use to work on myself during this time and hopefully use later on when hubby comes home. Mark Gungor goes around the world doing marriage seminars, but he is also a pastor of a church and has a radio program.
This book taught me a lot about the differences in how men and women think. It stepped on my toes quite a few times when I realized I did a lot wrong my entire married life. Not out of being mean....just plain ignorance! I felt the same way after reading The Five Love Languages. It seemed so clear after reading it, but I was sure ignorant of how to treat my h before that!
I laughed the whole time I was reading Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage! As a matter of fact, I lent this book and The Five Love Languages to my h. He read them both, but then asked if he could keep this one for a little while longer. When he returned it to me, he said he read it twice all the way through, but also read different sections numerous times. I like to keep the pages of my books neat, but when he returned the book it looked like it had been beat up! I was never so happy to see a banged up book in my life! My h told me he absolutely loved the book and wished Mark would come to Ohio so he could go see him. I couldn't believe it!
Now, that was 4 months ago and h has moved on in his crisis and is now spewing hate everywhere, so who knows if he would say the same thing now. However, at that time I did ask him why he would read, let alone read it twice and love a book about marriage if he didn't want to be married. And his answer at that time really gave me hope. He looked at me with a puzzled look and said "I don't know. Maybe I'm just so confused right now I don't know what I want. And you're right, maybe I don't want a divorce. I just don't know."
Now if I could just find a book, or better yet a book on tape that my husband would like. Something with subliminal messages to him like "You really love your wife. You miss her and want to live with her forever." Yeah, that would be great! 8) LOL!
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I have read the Conway books, Ed Wheat's book and books on affairs, all helpful. The one I am reading now is not MLC related but very helpful.
God Never Blinks by Regina Brett. "50 Lessons for Life's Little Detours".
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My H also read the 5 love languages, also completely agreed with it. That was nearly 2 years ago.... it does come up in our conversations sporadically; I'm hoping it's all seeds planted....
Like you, covenantkeeper, for me it was also like a lightbulb -- it seems so simple, how could I have been so ignorant? H said as well that it 'wasn't rocket science'.
I've used those ideas to great effect with my children in the meantime, and have also thought hard about my own parents. And have been learning to communicate my own needs as well... (although the time isn't right to do that with H yet).
I've also talked about that book with lots of my friends, we're all at that midlife transition age; others aren't going through this, but they've still taken the ideas on board to strengthen their own families.
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5LL had the opposite effect for me. My H read it, agreed with it, and then hit MLC and years later when I brought up (before bomb drop but in the anger stage) that I purposefully spoke his LL and I would appreciate it if he did the same for me, he told me he didn't believe love should take work, it's too much to expect and sneered at the 5LL idea.
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I hear what you are saying, M&H. Even though my H agreed with the principles, when this last came up he still said that love shouldn't be work, etc. He was taking the line that one should automatically WANT to speak the other's LL, and if you found yourself not particularly wanting to, then it was all wrong, etc., etc., etc. But he still hasn't totally discounted the LL idea, which I'm going to take as positive.
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I have read most of the books already recommended, but there is also another one that I think merits being added to the list. It's called Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage by Mark Gungor.
FWIW I downloaded several of his radio podcasts to my ipod and am listening to them today. He's funny, very real, and gets his point across. I like him.
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Henri Nouwen Turn My Mourning Into Dancing
Brennan Manning Ruthless Trust
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I just got another book from the library that I will be reading.
It is called "Unholy Ghost" - Writers on depression by Nell Casey.
It has contributions on it from 23 different writers.
It comes from another list of books on the other website.
Will report back when I have finished, or maybe in the middle.
Also bumping this thread up for other contributions.
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Not specifically about MLC, but it is helping me on my journey.
"Happier" by Tal Ben-Shahar. Harvard Professor that teaches a class about happiness.
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I found these most helpful so far:
to help me 'get a grip' and move forward:
Deepak Chopra "Why is God Laughing"
Andersons "Journey from Abandonment..."
Bruce Fisher "Rebuilding When a relationship Ends"
and his "Loving Choices".
to understand the affair:
Shirley Glass "Not just Friends"
Helen Fisher "Why we Love"
Harley's "Surviving the Afffair"
Elizabeth Landers "The Script" (tongue in cheek...funny)
to understand communication:
Chapman "5 love languages"
Sue Johnson "Hold Me Tight"
to understand depression:
Daniel Amen "Healing Anxiety and Depression"
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I'm currently looking for the O'Connor book at a reasonable price.
I found a copy at Powell's, the big bookstore in Portland, OR, for $5. You can go to powells.com and ask to be notified when they get a used copy in.
I just did a quick Google search and found this:
http://www.valorebooks.com/Search/ISBN/9780725103743?utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Froogle&utm_source=Froogle&date=07/26/10
it's about $8.50 including shipping.
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Psychology Today has a good series of articles:
- Better Living through Cognitive Dissonance (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200911/better-living-through-cognitive-dissonance)
- Disarming The Jealousy Complex (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201003/disarming-the-jealousy-complex)
- Love without Hurt: Boot Camps for Compassion (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200806/love-without-hurt-boot-camps-compassion)
- Marriage and the Power to be Happy (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200905/marriage-and-the-power-be-happy)
- Victim Identity: I'm Not Okay, You're More Not Okay (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201002/victim-identity-im-not-okay-youre-more-not-okay)
- What Kind of Partner Do You Want to Be? (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200909/what-kind-partner-do-you-want-be)
Here are books that I've read and can recommend:
- The Solo Partner by Phil DeLuca
- The Divorce Remedy and The Sex-Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner-Davis. (I like The Divorce Remedy much more than Divorce Busting, and haven't gotten a copy of The Sex-Starved Wife.)
- Getting Back Together by Bettie Youngs and Masa Goetz
- His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley
- The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman
- For Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women by Shaunti and Jeff Feldhahn
- For Women Only: What You Need to Know About the Inner Lives of Men by Shaunti Feldhahn (this one almost made me cry at times because I kept thinking "Yes! That's it, exactly!")
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Barnes and Noble's online store has a clearance sale on The Sex-Starved Wife: $3.99 for the hardcover and $2.99 for the softcover while supplies last.
Link to the softcover:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Sex-Starved-Wife/Michele-Weiner-Davis/e/9781616882785/?itm=6&USRI=michele+weiner-davis
Link to the hardcover:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Sex-Starved-Wife/Michele-Weiner-Davis/e/9781616795269/?itm=2&USRI=michele+weiner-davis
Good luck!
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I just got another book from the library that I will be reading.
It is called "Unholy Ghost" - Writers on depression by Nell Casey.
It has contributions on it from 23 different writers.
It comes from another list of books on the other website.
Will report back when I have finished, or maybe in the middle.
Also bumping this thread up for other contributions.
Ok I finished this book.
DO NOT BOTHER WITH IT.
I had a lot of trouble reading it as it was mostly ramblings from depressed people,
there were a few paragraphs here and there that were ok.
Not really worth the time and effort to read it.
So now I have another book.
"Controlling People - How to recognize and deal with people who try to control you"
by Patricia Evans
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So now I have another book.
"Controlling People - How to recognize and deal with people who try to control you"
by Patricia Evans
I just finished reading this book this morning.
It was quite interesting and I will try to put down some notes for myself and others.
Here is a website fro Ms. evans on an overview of the book:
Also there is some more explanation if you click in the upper left hand portion of this page.
http://www.patriciaevans.com/book3.html
This is a little story from the book which is somewhat crucial to the crux of the title;(somewhat paraphrased from the text)
"When Jack was three years old his parents, D & J took him to get some winter clothes.
While in the store Jack fell down and injured his knee and began to cry.
His parents said almost simultaneuosly as they pulled him up " You are not hurt. You have nothing to cry about.
You are just trying to get attention." Each of these statements invalidated Jack's pereception and was the opposite of the truth.
Jacks experience was presented to him backwards. An inner occurence his experience was defined from outside of himself by his parents.
If this is the way Jack was always treated, How might he have defined himself'"
If we believe that his parents definition is more real than our own we come to know ourselves in a backwards way. from the outside in, not the inside out."
There is another story which i believe is too long to recant her but the jist of it is that as a child you have a "Teddy Bear", you hug him and hold him,throw him around.
When you grow up Teddy becomes a real person and all is fine with life, until one day, Teddy actually talks back and questions you. You start yelling and screaming at
Teddy becuase he is not acting like the pretend person that you have come to know and love. This pretend person is the one that is being controlled by the controller.
At the very end of the book she goes into how to break this control. Her theory is that the person needs to confront the controller with the word "WHAT?"
Also by setting clear boundaries.
I was expecting her to say by detachment but that was not used.
She did say that the controller needed connections with the controlled person so I believe that we are on the right trail with detachment, to break the connection that the controller.
Next book on the menu is "Talking to Depression" by Carol J Strauss
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I see I forgot to review the "Talking to Depression" book by Carol J Strauss.
It was ok, I would have been better off reading it about 9 months ago.
It pretty much was a review of validation, the stages of depression, how to act around a depressed person.
Now I am reading Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy.
I am only up to chapter 3 but it seems pretty good so far.
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Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy.
I just finished this book.
I enjoyed this one as it goes into explanations of different periods of a mans life.
A little bit of his twenties, thirties,more in depth on 40's,50's,60's and beyond.
It has some funny anecdotes on each stage.
There is some mention of women in the book, but it would be nice to read a similar book on women's passages.
One thing it did say is men live longer if they are married!
Also that the older that men get the smaller the life expectancy age gap is between men and women.
I have a book called "The Script" why men cheat, up for the next review
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I have a book called "The Script" why men cheat, up for the next review
Can't wait to hear what you think of this one!. It gave me a good chuckle. :o
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Have any of you ever read this all time popular children's novel? I love children's lit...and I'm starting to delve into a new genre...young adult. It's been fun reading from the young adult genre and is sort of like a window into my "adolescent husbands" issues. Anyway if you haven't read a wrinkle in time...I think you should...Laura Munson references it in her book...that's why I read it...
It's very telling.....to say the least.
Don't know if this is a discussion persay...just my 2 cents worth :)
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Yes, I have read it many times as well as other books by Madeline L'Engle. Great book!!
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Ok I finished
"The Script" (The 100% absolutely predictable things men do when they cheat)
by Elizabeth Landers & Vicky Mainzer
First a funny thing happened while I was reading this book.
My W I think snooped on this book. I wasn't really publicly showing it to her.
Anyway on her computer a trail of websites about men cheating showed up for a few days.
So she must have thought that by me reading this book I was cheating on her. LOL!!!!
Anyways the book is quite good for what happens before and through replay.
Even explains how it is "childhood issues" that cause all of these things to happen.
Goes over different types of Bomb Drops.
The lying and all that goes on during the affairs.
It also gives the LBS some lines(to say) and advice of what to do and expect during this phase.
The finale was a little disappointing. It is only 5 pages long.
It basically says that the "hero" (the cheater) doesn't get what he really wants in the end.
That the story doesn't turn out like he was expecting.
The book is only 173 pages and small paper with large type.
So it is a pretty quick read if you have time.
Right now I ran out of books because the ones I have on order from the library didn't come in yet.
So when I get another and finish it I will post the review.
Hey, other people are allow to post here too!!!!! (HInt) (Hint) READ!!!!!! :) :) :)
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Just finished the book "Infidelity" by Don-David Lusterman
This book has some good advice in it and takes you through the different types of affairs including MLC.
Their is a section on "life crisis" including MLC.
It deals with the secrecy, children, family and freinds, advice to the one in crisis.
I question some of what is written to the one in crisis.
I wonder how many people having an affair are going to read this book.
Much of the advice seems to be geared towards them.
Not that there is anything wrong with the advice that they are being given just whether they will take it or not.
The one thing that also seems absent from this book is the exposure theory, that is put forth on other websites as a technique for breaking the affair.
Very little if anything is written on this subject.
I have another book on infidelity "Not just Friends" by Shirley Glass. up next.
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I have a book called "The Script" why men cheat, up for the next review
Can't wait to hear what you think of this one!. It gave me a good chuckle. :o
Just finished this one...I thought it was good....it makes you feel like your not NUTZ...It's unbelievable how predictable the whole thing is.....It got me thinking about affairs in general....like what the difference btw. a MLC affair and a regular old affair would be...I believe a big difference is in a non-MLC affair a spouse is less likely to cut and run and leave family whereas an MLC affair results in a much more DELUSIONAL state of AFFAIRS....anyway the script I believe is about MLC affairs....just my thoughts...
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I have been reading "when things fall apart" Heart advice for difficult times by Pema Chodron...It really helps me. I've also been listening to CD's by Pema called "don't bite the hook"...it helps me to actively work on not being angry, resentful, etc.
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I just finished reading "How to Get Him Back From The Other Woman- If You Still Want Him" by Diane Baroni and Betty Kelly. 1992 A whole $3 on Amazon. I would say it was worth the $3.
Usually, I will scoff at books titled like this. It sounds stupid. So, maybe it is my surprise at the content that has made me like it. The book reads much like this forum, the advice is along the same line. Get a life, work on yourself, be calm and confident, and so on. Good specifics on GALing, and good direction on how to move on while leaving the door open.
An entire chapter is devoted to evaluating your M, and deciding to continue to stand. I read through it pretty quick and intend to go back and examine parts, like this, more closely. There is also a chapter on identifying when H is really ready to return, and one on resuming sex. Authors lightly touch on MLC and depression as reasons for an A.
Next on my nightstand...Terrence Real's, "I Don't Want To Talk About It- Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression", 1997.
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Next on my nightstand...Terrence Real's, "I Don't Want To Talk About It- Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression", 1997.
This one has been sitting on my stand for a very long time. It was recommended by someone, but I just haven't cracked it open.
I have read so many, many books on self-help, relationships, MLC, since this began. I think I just burned myself out. Plus, with H here it is hard to keep my reading materials discreet.
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Terrence Real's I Don't Want to Talk About It is in my opinion the first book people should read to learn about male depression. Nothing beats it.
And Still...you are dealing with so much clear depression.
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And Still...you are dealing with so much clear depression.
I know, RCR. My H won't even admit to one tiny miniscule bit of depression.
He even shouted one day, "You think that I am depressed. The truth is that I am in full avoidance. Avoidance of everything about this relationship!"
That is one of the reasons I haven't been able to read this book. I would have to be very secretive in order to read any amount of it. If he saw it, it would lead to monstrous behavior. I will find a way, though.
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I just made a list of the books here that I haven't read, wait until he see's my library, LOL. I've got all of Melody Beattie's books, the author of "the Language of Letting Go." She has so many good books.
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Just finished reading this book, I am going to use this review that someone else wrote for FIGHTING FOR YOUR MARRIAGE by Markman,Stanley, and Blumberg.
I read the 2010 edition as it just came into the library.
Fighting for Your Marriage" has the feel of being more of a strategy guide for effective communication than a how-to formula for a cookie-cutter successful marriage. I didn't get the sense that I have to follow everything in the book to make marriage work. Instead, it reminded me of the different perspectives in relationships without making heavy generalizations of male and female roles. Understanding how these different perspectives result become key in honing the right communication skills for a stronger marriage.
The book begins with the four hallmarks of a great relationship: 1) be safe at home, 2) open the doors to intimacy, 3) do your part and be responsible, and 4) nurture security in your future together. Though these sound like four tasks that need to be done, the book builds on these four hallmarks conceptually to present four important aspects to marriage life.
Part one: "Understanding the Risks on the Road to Lasting Love." One chapter covers ways couples destroy their relationship: 1) escalation, 2) invalidation, 3) negative interpretations, and 4) withdrawal and avoidance. Then, special attention is placed on how changing times means changing roles and rules.
Part two: "Teaming Up to Handle Conflict." The "be safe at home" concept is especially vital in understanding communication in this section--the aphorism here is in taking turns to speak/listen. Relationships blow up because of a misunderstanding that escalates out of control, often due to filters that often distort what one is trying to convey to another--1) distractions, 2) emotional states, 3) beliefs and expectations, 4) differences in style, and 5) self-protection.
Part three: "Enjoying Each Other." Make time for marriage as one does for an esteemed friend. The authors do not shy away from identifying the friendship aspect of marriage as being the core of long-lasting, happy marriages. Friendship needs to be nurtured, so couples need to make the time. Working on the friendship is a worthwhile investment that pays off in the long run. Of course, sensuality is given plenty of notice here as well.
Part four: "Staying the Course." This section begins with a simple reality check: you can't always get what you want. But that should not excuse any of the spouses from trying to meet the expectations of another. A great deal of motivation needs cultivating to get the wheels rolling. More than anything else in the section, I found the chapter on forgiveness very revealing with this point: "forgiveness is a decision to give up your perceived or actual right to get even with, or hold in debt, someone who has wronged you."
Overall, this book has many merits, mainly because it keeps the channel of communication open for a healthy marriage by offering perspectives that makes yielding hopefully more possible and manageable.
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My W is the MLC. We have both been reading:
Awakening at Midlife [Paperback]
Kathleen A. Brehony (Author)
4.8 out of 5 stars See all reviews (14 customer reviews)
Excellent book. Describes my W to a 'T', and she agrees. Also has a chapter for us. This book is a little more gender-neutral than most so it is a good read for us.
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Here is an interview from a book I read a year or so ago Crossing the Soul's River: A Rite of Passage for Men by Bill Roberts. It was very interesting.
http://www.menweb.org/crossoul.htm
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Just finished Women In MLC by Sally Conway.(and Jim too)
Book wasn't too bad, I thought men in MLC was better.
There is one story I am going to give you that is good for everyone.
I am going to paraphrase to make it a little shorter to type.
From page 300 and 301 in the book.
"What is the difference between a transition and a crisis?
Imagine standing on a dock waiting to get into a canoe on a lake.
As you step into the canoe you try to keep your weight in the center of the boat.
One foot is in, one foot still on the dock, the canoe starts to move away from the dock.
Your legs start to be spread even wider.
You try to reach back to the dock but your legs are spread too wide.
In the water you go!
The canoe also tips over.
YOU ARE NOW IN A CRISIS.
Instead of moving from one stable position on the dock to another stable position in the boat.
This would be a transition."
Anyway I enjoyed reading that little story! :)
Edit This is the book that DGU says contains the four pllars of a MLC - Body, Spouse, Job, and God
Actually the Four Enemies are listed in the chapter called "Her Husband's Own Crisis"
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Hey. Cool thread. Not sure why I didn't see this earlier. :)
I liked:
The seven principles for making marriage work by john gottman
Why marriages succeed or fail by john gottman
men are from mars women are from venus
How to survive your husband's midlife crisis by Gay Courter and Pat Gaudette is ok. Wouldn't rush to the stores for it, but ok.
Then I have a bunch of anger books... somehow I don't think that applies here though. LOL.
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I picked up a great book at the library this week. It's really beneficial in helping GAL.
The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin
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Had to go out of town today didn't want to.
Wound up in a books store with my girls and started looking for The Journey from Abandonment to Healing By Susan Anderson that has been mentioned here- and there was one copy left..must have been waiting for me.
Discovering a lot about me. Abandoment issues and why I've suffered so much, so hard, and so fast in this MLC thing come from Alcholic upbringing and failed first eary marriage at 19 when that husband left me for ow also.
Helping me a lot to realize what I left unresolved. I have already done a lot of work with the alchohol issues and suspected about two weeks ago my agony that I suffering might come from that first marriage and lo and behold found myself in the pages of this book
I've foun, with me anyway, if I can read something and identify I don't feel like so much of a freak. This book is working for me. :) :) :)
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The Journey from Abandonment to Healing By Susan Anderson that has been mentioned here- and there was one copy left..must have been waiting for me.
Go to her website and check that out too especially the inner/outer child page on the website.
http://www.abandonment.net/professionalTrainingFrame.html
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Although thsi book isn't about MLC. I find myself hunting for comforting books.
I don't have the mental ability to follow a story like a novel etc. I find myself having to read sometimes whole chapters over again due to the disquiet in my head.
But in my closet tonight I found a book that once gave me a lot of comfort and started reading it again.
It's The Book of Positive Quotations complied and arranged by John Cook. Many many quotes from the famous, infamous, and everyone in between. 543 pages of short thoughts which I can apply to my life now.
The quotes are arranged in subchapters like change, instincts, fear, worry, taking one step at a time, self-pity and a lot of other things.
And the other thing I found and I'd wondered where it went..I found my bible :) :)
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Hi,
This isn't an MLC book, but it's one I've been reading and it has been speaking to me.
It's "Have a Little Faith", by Mitch Albom.
It's an easy read; I haven't read his others but they were on the bestseller lists, so maybe others have heard of him. It deals with a heavy topic in a very light way. It's non-fiction, but tells a story.
Just thought I'd add that here....
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My H actually sent me that book last february and I thought, what a strange gift??? But, everything he does is strange so I try not to question anymore.
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I'm currently reading "let go now embracing detachment" by Karen Casey. I like it. It talks about the things we talk on the forum. 200 meditations/prayers. You read about one per day and reflect on it. It's about God and detachment.
Check it out!
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Ok, I didn't get this book at the bookstore today, so I'm not recommending BUT it sure had a great title...
My Husband Said He Needed More Space, So I Locked Him Outside
But I did get this one.
Calling In "The One"
It's a seven week (49 day) guide to attracting the love of your life using the Law of Attraction.
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I have two new titles that have been very helpful:
Is he depressed or what? by David B. Wexler
Mr. Mean - Saving your Relationship from the Irritable Male Syndrome by Jed Diamond
These are books I have had, but revisit frequently:
Divorce Remedy by Michele Wiener
Good Men behaving Badly by David Wexler
Why Can't I get through to you by Terrance Real
I don't want to talk about it - Male Depression by Terrance Real
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I just read i love you, but... i'm not IN LOVE with you by Andrew G Marshall.
It was really good and pretty insightful as to how things get to this point.
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Even though H should be reading this not me: "No more Mr. Nice Guy". Who is the nice guy: a man whose life seems so under control until BOOM he does something to destroy it all; a guy who frustrates his wife because he is so afraid of conflict that nothing ever gets resolved; a guy who seeks the approval of others; who hides their perceived flaws and mistakes; who puts other people's needs and wants before their own; who sacrifices their personal power and often plays the victim.... etc.
Does this sounds familiar to anyone? My H to a T.
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Liveandlearn...
I'm so getting that book... I'm with you, my H to a T. :)
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This is not a book, but a page of inspiring quotes. Some are cliche, but easy and lite to read.
http://www.livinglifefully.com/thinkerseroosevelt.html
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ugh wish I could get these books here.
I just can't spend too much at present, xmas has killed me.
And they aren't on kindle either.
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I think this thread is incredibly valuable. All the advice is to "read as much as you can about MLC", but no one gives a list of books.
I wanted to let everyone know about a book called, "Broken Heart on Hold: Surviving Separation" by Linda Rooks (http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Heart-Hold-Surviving-Separation/dp/078144439X). It's not specifically about MLC, although her husband may have been in MLC. It's about Standing for your marriage, and therefore relevant to all of us. I read it over and over and found great comfort in it. At the time, long before I found this website, I felt alone. There are lots of books about marriage and divorce, but very few about separation.
I agree about "Divorce Remedy" by Michelle Weiner-Davis, another book I read over and over. Conway's "Men in Midlife Crisis" is a must.
Based on this thread I ordered "Crossing the Soul's River" by William O. Roberts. I haven't actually read it thoroughly, just skimmed it because I wanted to give it to my husband this week. From what I read, it seems good. It's targeted to the MLCer. It has some really valuable ideas for someone who is ready to work on themselves. Don't know if he'll read it. He has admitted that "there's a component of MLC to all of this" though. So maybe.
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I'm going to recommend "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie.... she's got a website that is particularly comprehensive www.thework.com (http://www.thework.com)
It's got NOTHING to do with MLC or Marriage Reconciliation and EVERYTHING to do with living your life without suffering, regardless of your circumstances... years ago I discovered her approach, which is not necessarily new, just packaged in a very simple way to understand. I found her technique to be a "shortcut" out of my negative thoughts... literally, gone in 60 seconds as long as I remember to do it, hahaha!!
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Didn't get to read this whole thread again but if the two books "After the Affair" and "7 levels of Intimacy" were mentioned I like these books a lot.
I believe, for me anyway, there comes a point in time in this journey that you're ready to read certain things and be able to connect with them. EVEN if the MLC'er doesn't come back ( and we are all living "as if")
These books I'm finding are presenting questions to me that I had thought of before but somehow finding them in a written word gives me room for pause. And they are helping me reflect a great deal. And I'm considering the possiblity that I may just have to walk away; but would be ok with it. But that's today...Lord only knows about tomorrow.
The intimacy book for me (once it gets into the higher levels) is very scary. I don't know if I could obtain these things with anyone; but that would be due to my own issues.
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I just re read "Why is God Laughing?" by Deepak Chopra.
It is a work of fiction about a guy in a mid-life crisis of sorts, but the message for LBSs is wonderful.
The character learns lessons from a mysterious stranger.
The lessons are delivered bibliotherapy style to the reader but are explained at the end. Read to enjoy and learn the lessons later.
Mainly it reminded me that Joy, gratitude and laughter can be found all the time, everywhere. There is much to be learned in these lessons though they are very simply described.
I recommend it as it is a change from the type of books many of us are devouring these days, but also is focusing on self and examining your perspective.
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I recommend it as it is a change from the type of books many of us are devouring these days, but also is focusing on self and examining your perspective.
My bedroom floor is starting to rival the "self help" section of Barnes and Noble these days....
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Library....I didn't want to have to have a bookshelf full of self help. Although,now I'm on a first name basis with all of the libraians at the local library. ???
Also am learning that most of the books on MLC or related issues are in the Large Type area of the library. LOL!!!
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Has anyone read "Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life - How to Finally, Really Grow Up" by James Hollis?
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Just wanted to share a few blurbs from "Codependent No More".
- Mentally Ill, Alcoholics, (MLC), etc... are Expert Controllers.
- We have met our match.
- When we try to control them we lose.
- We lose the battle, we lose the war, and we lose ourselves.
- You didn't cause it. You can't control it. And you can't cure it.
- People do what they want to do.
- They will change only when they are ready.
- It does not matter... if they are hurting themselves.
- It does not matter... if they are hurting other people.
- It does not matter... if you could help them.
- It does not matter... It does not matter...
- The only person you can ever change is yourself.
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Good link Metal. I have an alcoholic father who my mother has "enabled"; she tries to control, to change, she has issued ultimatums which she has never followed through on. It is a codependent relationship that has gone on for years. Which is partly why, in the MLC stuff with my H, I feel a huge desire to just "get out". I don't want my marriage to end, I truly, deeply love the person that H was before all of this, but I do not want to repeat my mother's mistake. I honestly believe she should have left my father years ago and then she MIGHT have been able to concentrate on herself and her own mental health which has suffered hugely over the years of staying with my D.
That is why I am moving to a bigger city to get a job. My H moved out from our home and in with OW straight away, and I can not hang around "hoping" he will come back. If he ever feels remorse, if he ever wants "us" back, if he ever thinks this was the biggest mistake of his life, he will know where to find me, but things can never go back to me, him and the kids in that family home, with me bending over backwards to be the perfect at-home wife and mother, only to have it thrown back in my face - no matter what.
I will move, get a career, look after my children, facilitate contact for them with their D. I will continue with therapy, with exploring me and who I am and who I want to be going forward. If H wants me back, I will see how I feel when the work on me is further along. And if int he meantime someone else finds the new me irresistable ;D before H gets there, then that will be his loss. I will not be codependen t. He is out of my life for the time being, except for his contact with the children.
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Thanks for posting that Metal. What a blueprint for MLC!
And followed by Standanddeliver's very strong message..get a life. The world is out there waiting to be explored, waiting to give us what we need and want and only we can get that for ourselves. I don't have a partner anymore..so I cannot rely on what I thought our life was going to be.
I still want that life but I have no control over what he wants.
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Has anyone heard of the book Relationship Saboteurs by Randi Gunther Ph.D? Wondering if I should get it?
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Thanks for getting this out here.
I have been using this very "formula" since crisis began. Well, before that really. MLC is SO similar to alcoholism. I just replace the word alcoholic or alcohol to "mlc, or mlc behavior." It works out great. I have been around the 12 step program for 31 years and it doesn't fail. And GREAT book by the way!!! It sure helped me to identify and change what needed to be changed. :)
And welcome here Metal!
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Thanks OP.. Newbies need this info
Haven't gotten any new ones lately I keep rereading the old ones. "After the Affair" is helping a lot..even though I didn't see how it could when I first started reading it. :o
And I'm still finding inspiration in the Bible. But that book never goes out of style. ;)
Has anyone heard of the book Relationship Saboteurs by Randi Gunther Ph.D?
Never heard of it; but I'll bet you can buy it used on Amazon for a lot less than new ( unless it is a new book of course)
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Wow! Love this thread. I've read a number of the books recommended. Especially liked Broken Heart on Hold and, of course, Michele Weiner Davis' Divorce Remedy and Chapman's The 5LL. I'd also add another title by Jungian analyst James Hollis (who several have already recommended) and that's The Eden Project: In Search of the Magical Other. Fantastic dissection of what the MLCer is looking for when they attach to the OW. Truly great read for any LBS.
Also enjoyed Bob Steinkamp's The Prodigal's Perspective. Steinkamp and his wife founded the Rejoice Marriage Ministries website. He was an MLCer himself. The book consists of questions which a LBS would have and Steinkamp answers from the "other country." Has a strong Christian perspective but even if that's not your thing there's a lot of good info in it.
My amazon account is gonna be smokin'!
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If you want to find these books check a site I love called paperbackswap.com. They offer new and used books are really good prices. You can also list the books you have and get credits to use to buy new books from them. The site has a really good selection at better prices than amazon and barnes and nobles.
For more details just pm me and I will give you the information.
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Great Information in Solo Partner ...a MUST read for everyone here...I think I'll read it again!
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I'm on a long distance road trip and I bought two of the titles recommended on this thread with me as audiobooks: After the Affair by Janis Spring and For Women Only: What You Need to Know About the Inner Lives of Men by Shaunti Feldhahn. I've finished both and wanted to share my thoughts.
Both books were very worthwhile. After the Affair was quite good. Spring's a therapist and she doesn't sugarcoat the daunting challenges facing a couple trying to decide whether to save a marriage after infidelity and then, if they do decide to try, what to expect.
Although MLC is never mentioned, the advice Spring gives would certainly be applicable to an LBS & MLC trying to reconcile. I've read that "piecing" together a relationship after MLC is as big, if not a bigger, challenge as surviving the MLC itself.
Spring's description certainly verifies that claim. Frankly, I found it depressing. I've had this fantasy that, if H & I ever do reconcile, it will be sweetness and light (well, not really, but compared to what I'm going through now it seems like it would be!) This book starkly lays out the emotional, psychological, social and physical (i.e. sexual) issues that face the couple trying to recover from infidelity.
She pulls no punches and lays it out in graphic detail. She's pretty neutral in her presentation of infidelity, she seems to have no agenda one way or the other about whether people should try to reconcile but she does seem to have a bias that trying to salvage a marriage after infidelity can be successful and well worth doing.
It gave me a lot to think about, mostly "do I really want my marriage to be reconciled if this is what's ahead?" Not pleasant, but instructive. I highly recommend it.
The second book For Women Only was outstanding. I've read a lot of relationship books in the 3 months since BD and this is in my top 3. Again, MLC is never mentioned. What Feldhahn is trying to do is let women in on the "secrets" (i.e. unexpressed but deeply felt) beliefs/thoughts/desires/concerns of men.
It's based on solid research and polling data and I learned a lot I didn't know. I feel I understand my H so much more than I did before reading this. I know that sounds grandiose but I really was amazed by some of the things her work revealed.
There were places as I was listening when tears were in my eyes because I saw, for the first time, things from my H's point of view. It gave me much more empathy for him. This is an important book for any woman who wants to have a deeper understanding of her husband and her marriage, the kind of understanding that can help you change your relationship for the better.
The book made me sad though, very sad. I wished I'd read it when we first were married (a long time ago!) or 10 or 5 years ago. (I'm not sure, however, if I would have been open to what the book was saying.) It made me feel that maybe what's happened (H's affair, our separation) could have been softened or even avoided. Wishful thinking probably since MLC seems to hit whether the marriage is solid or not yet this book will make you think very hard about your husband. Feldhahn also has a companion book for men about women. Enjoy!
M 58
H 60
D 21
M 37 years
BD Jan., 2011
H left immediately after BD to live
with OW with whom he's been have
2 year affair
Standing
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Thanks for sharing. I have read After the Affair and found it quite good..but my H has never reconnected with me since I read it 20 months ago so have no first hand experience.
Shall order the other one...way back at the beginning I read men are from Mars Women are from Venus and even that gave me insight that I should have known a very long time ago.
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I have read over 200 books on love, marriage, divorce and psychology in the last year. Some of my favorites are When Good People Have Affairs by Mira Kirschenbaum, I think. I have lent all these out, so I don't have them to look at. I resisted this book for a long time, because I didn't want to believe that good people have affiars, but it was on the Valentine's Day display at the library and none of the books abour romance appealed to me--imagine that... Read it, it is great, for anyone in or out of a relationship. Also, The Gift of Betrayal is an amazing guide to recovery, as is the Grief Recovery Handbook. Wrestling with Love is an amazing book about why men are so screwed up, no offense, really. Andrew Root's Children of Divorce is a soul searching book about the otological implications of divorce for our kids. I also love Jed Diamond and Terence Real. Runaway Husbands by Vikki Stark is very illuminating. And last but not least, every woman should read, I thought it was just me, by Brene Brown. And if you are not a reader, search Brene Brown on youtube and look for the 20 minute video. It will change your life--really. But her book helped me not so much to deal with my own shame, but understand that I had carried his shame for so long and what finally broke us was that I stopped and he needed to find someone else to do it for him. She is a goddess, really!
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Read posts having to do with the Solo Partner.
Then you really do not have to read the book if you combine those posts (which are direct quotes out if the book) with RCR's articles on pursuit and distance.
EDIT: That thread has been merged and split off again
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I found an article on here by a minister that wrote a book on him MLC journey and how he life this profession and family and went basically nuts...moving some 10-13 times in two years trying to find answers.... the article talked about Soul Mates to, with biblical references....it was almost an interview about him book...he was asked series of questions and answered them...Anyone familiar with what I am talking about....or the name of the book....ugh
Sorry this is so vague...
thanks
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Ok...went back and found the name of the book on an old thread...
Crossing the Soul's River: A Rite of Passage for Men by William O. Roberts, Jr
Now, who can help steer me to where that is on the forum?????????????
thanks so much
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Go to bewidered's posts as I think she was the one who discussed it.
Click on members and then find bewildered and then click on the posts line on the right handside of the page.
xx
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Hi not sure its the right one you are talking about this is the link
http://www.menweb.org/crossoul.htm
he left his wife of 2 and half years and reinvented himself then went back to his old life wiser and more undersanding of what me needed from life and begged his wife for forgiveness and it must have worked because they are back together -he does not mention her, his wife much as he says the book is too painful for her ...............
great book theone that made sense to me
B xx
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I read the book, too. I thought it was very interesting. It really gave me a real understanding of what someone in MLC might be going through.
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Reading a book called "Driving with Plato the meaning behind life's milestones by Robert Rowland Smith. Has an entire chapter on MLC .Will let you know more once I finish it.
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I've just read:
'"I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You": Seven Steps to Saving Your Relationship' by Andrew G Marshall (http://www.andrewgmarshall.com/i-love-you-but-im-not-in-love-with-you/)
Brilliant! It's not directly about MLC, but it is mentioned. Marshall doesn't like the term, but he hits on several of the traits/features of the MLCer (and the LBS). He also makes it clear that in relationships, whatever one partner says, it's always six-of-one/half-a-dozen-of-the-other, so although the MLCer heaps the blame on the LBS, they never see that they were equally culpable, i.e. they have to take responsibility. The benefits of constructive arguing and resolving issues is a big theme: something myself and my wife have never done successfully. I've just ordered another of his books: "Help Your Partner say ‘Yes’: Seven Steps to achieving better cooperation and communication".
I've also just read "For Women Only: What You Need to Know About the Inner Lives of Men" and "For Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women" by Shaunti and Jeff Feldhahn.
Both great books, though I'm not a Christian so the religious/Biblical stuff grated a bit. I read the former because I wanted some reassurance that I am 'normal', and guess what, I am! All the feelings of doubt and questioning I'd gone through about me and who I was were removed by this book; it's helped me to see that what has happened in my marriage was not all my fault and that our needs were not being met by each other.
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Just read an interesting story about infidelity. The couple has written a book called "Surprised by Love". It doesn't specifically state this was a MLC but might be interesting to read their entire story. The website: surprisedbylove.com if anybody is interested in checking it out.
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We could write a novel about a character in MLC - we are experts afterall. And between us all we have so much incredible and extroadinary material to make a composite main character into a force for real melodrama . I propose we call it either "MONSTER" or "THE SCRIPT".
We already know the plot, if you have any suggestions for the family situation, the MLC personality, the circumstances around BD, the character (or lack there of) of OW/OM, the type of MLCer (boomerang etc) the cycling behaviour, the financial crisis, and dialogue (we all know the obligatory ILBINILWY, but other classic lines taken directly from the mouths of our darling MLCers would add authenticity).
Hehehe. Sometimes you have to laugh...
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It's already out there.... it's called "Something's Gotta Give" and also "It's Complicated". ;)
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It's already out there.... it's called "Something's Gotta Give" and also "It's Complicated". ;)
ROFLMAO!!! Oh LG you have no idea how funny you are. Thanks for the laugh!! I really needed that. Sad thing is I really liked those movies pre-MLC. :o :o
S&D
Laughter is always the best medicine. And we could ALWAYS use a laugh. ;D ;D
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Soundtrack = Running on Empty ::)
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I was thinking of a song by Harry Nillson called "your breaking my heart"
sorry.............
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"I was only ever infatuated with you and I'm really sorry, but I shouldn't have married you" (Spoken after 9 yrs of marriage and 4 children and the only admission of fault regarding the marriage breakdown) then add in " I treasure the time we dated before marriage and our weekend away (one month prior!).
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I've been meaning to do this for awhile.
I'm interested in creating a book list of NOVELS that have an element of midlife crisis or transition in them. I recently read two that I really liked so I'll share them here. If there are more that anyone knows of please share. I have always been an avid reader but since my H's MLC I have had a hard time with FICTION in particular. NOt quite sure why...maybe too many triggers...maybe my life has enough drama that I can't handle other drama...I don't know but these books were nice to read.
Love and Biology at the Center of the Universe- Jennie Shortridge
The Tenth Circle-Jodi Picoult
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Thanks for starting this.
I am a fan of Jodi Picoult but have not read that one yet. I'll have to put it on the list!
I don't have any recall of books about this but I'll keep thinking.
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Just finished reading this book about a psychologist who has an affair, they D and then after 1 year the reM. Has anyone read it? I found it to be very helpful understanding the WS thinking. It reads like a novel getting dialogue from both sides of M.
Would love to hear of any other observations on this book!
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Trying to find now. Just looked on my local library site but they don't have it . Guess I am running to Barnes and Nobles. I did see a link where the authors were just on a morning talk show around June 11 2011. Might want to look at it. The book sounds very interesting. Heading out now to get it :) Good thing I am a fast reader.
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Too funny I was going to say "I'm going to Barnes and Noble" but I thought you guys would think I was possessed. Then Good4You says she's RUNNING to Barnes and Noble. LOL 8)
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Is this the web site you're talking about?
http://www.surprisedbylove.com/our-story/
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Their story was featured on a new series of the OWN network called UNFAITHFUL stories of betrayl. There is a couple posts on this thread if you are interested.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3228.0
Edit - RCR was on this show,new link needed- OldPilot
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Ok ran out and bought the book. Going to start reading it tonight once I finish packing. It looks to be a very good book . Once I finish reading it I will glady pass it on to anyone here who wants to read it. I can just send it thru media mail -it's not expensive.
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any reactions to this book?
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First let say I am writing this on my cell phone so excuse any errors .
I loved the book. Wonderful to read both sides of the story at once. Dr jay was horrid in his behaviour but julie kept her cool . I don't know how she did it but I definitely could learn a lot from this book. I enjoyed reading the turmoil he was goung through.
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Enjoyed migh be the wring word. I felt comforted that he was realizing how wrong he had been. That his actujs if throwing his family away fir some stripper was completely crazy. When Dr Jay said how his wife Julie always treated him with love it reminded me of the things we are told here . Detachment seems o be the golden ticket here in MLC world. I think I am going to reread it again for better insight. This is the best mlc affair book I have read . Everyone here should read it. Honestly think if we can attend a seminar or lecture they have it would be worth it.
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good4you,
I agree strongly with your take on the book. It has helped me understand my XH thinking as he was always the biggest giver in our relationship to the degree of putting himself last. I do see his ability to become extremely selfish b/c of his 30 year devotion to me and the kids. I have a chronic health condition and he was always my biggest support thru trying times.
This book also validates everything I believe is possible for M. It is possible for remorse and making amends. I just have not experienced this from my XH who has re-inserted himself with AP and her daughter and has moved back in with her after losing his 4th job in as many years. He was an extremely admired executive for our 31 year M and now he has lost his career, his M, his honor and respect from 3 adult kids (they have no relationship while he is with AP), his home, his 2 dogs, his loving extended family who respected him for his selfless care of his family until his A and defection.
Thanks for replying and helping to validate my feelings re: this wonderful book.
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Bumping this up in hopes that others have the chance to read this book. It is really one of the best books that I have read since this ordeal happened .
Surprised by Love...
they have a website and videos you can watch too. Also Dr Jay has written a series of articles for various magazines
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Going to bump this up once again. Letting go just picked up the book . Think if we all can find a copy let's meet back here and post our thoughts on Dr Jay and Julie's experiences.
Thanks Buggy for posting a link to their story :)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1245.0;all (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1245.0;all)
need new link
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Just got it TODAY and skimmed... read my reaction on my thread.... IT IS A PAGE TURNER and under $20 dollars, so no need to wait... everyone go get it. It is definitely not all clinical and dry... it is REAL PEOPLE Feeling, Responding and Reacting. Get it.
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I ordered this book and am about half way through it now....I would recommend this to ALL us LBS's
Its a great insight into the mind of what I believe to be a man in MLC...and you get to read their
thought during this entire mess....
You will be enlightened and maybe even shed a few tears...but well worth the read!!!
I ordered it through Amazon.com
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I've just finished this book and he certainly sounds like he is going through MLC. I thought it was helpful having the emails they actually sent to each other at the time so you could see how it progressed. I don't have anything like that contact with my ex but I did find it really helpful to hear the MLCer's thoughts at the time and how he felt as he started to realise what he had done.
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Has anyone read both the Men in Midlife Crisis and Women in Midlife Crisis books?
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I watch the series "unfaithful, stories of betrayal" i remember their story... I was thinking wow... They really sum it all up. Think I'll have to get the book because the series really explains both sides extremely well.
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Has anyone read both the Men in Midlife Crisis and Women in Midlife Crisis books?
Yes, I have read them both
The Men in MLC is where HB got the 6 stages of MLC from.
Women in MLC, DGU quotes all the time and their are a few good parts in it.
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I wanted to add my reaction to this book. I just finished it today. As most have posted here, it's a riveting read and a must for any LBSer's library.
The dual nature of the story's presentation is its greatest strength. The MLC husband gives his description of a situation, then the LBS wife gives hers. It's quite detailed and the MLCer's journey is classic MLC "script", i.e. unresolved childhood issues, affair down OW, unmet needs and inability to express them to wife, growing unexamined resentments, MLCer's habitual lying, etc. Wow!
The couple who wrote it, Jay and Julie Kent-Ferraro have done a serious service to the entire LBS and MLC "community"! It's quite self-revealing, especially on Jay Ferraro's part. Brave of him to put it all out there. I think this book could help a lot of people.
Wish I could give it to my H but it's waaaaaay too early for that. But maybe someday. The similarities between Jay Ferraro's attitudes, actions and beliefs while he was in MLC, and my own H's recent and current behavior and attitudes, is spooky.
The only thing that I was a bit puzzled by was the rapidity of their reconciliation. I think its just a little over a year from the time he leaves until they're divorced and then, quite quickly, remarry. However, his affair had been going on for some time before BD.
I strongly urge everyone to read it. I predict you'll be glad you did.
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan., '11
H living with OW since BD
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I just finished for the second time, and am convinced Dr. Jay made an early return once JULIE stopped pursuing him!! She pursued A LOT!! I believe that she became OW to OW and as he was falling in love with her after their divorce, he was still in MLC... may still be in some aspects of it.
His relationship with OW overlapped, even as he fell in love with Julie and moved in with her... he was still adamant that "marriage was not for him" and he admits he fantasized that he and OW would be able to "work things out" and have a future together..... in the next breath, he is going on and on about how much he loves and admires Julie and how happy he is to be home with his family and how Julie is his future... if this doesn't scream MLC thinking, I don't know what does, LOL!!
When Julie confronted him about OW, he told her to back off and stop being so controlling.... MLC. When he and Julie remarried, he was still involved with OW - for friendship, he says.... but OW harassed them and had him thrown in jail when they got back from their honeymoon.... the relationship with OW overlapped his NEW relationship with Julie by almost a year....he was still nuts.
I also notice that in his praise of Julie, it was all about how SHE changed from the awful person she had been.... no taking responsibility for his part in it until the very end of the book, and I believe that was facilitated by his therapy and workshops.... he was still very narcissistic, but I surmise his background as a therapist caused him to seek help and to take the advice he was given in therapy.... if the counselors told him he was behaving in a narcissistic way, he would give a lot of weight to what they were saying, being a therapist himself.
I still saw that Julie both pursued for a long time, and in some areas, she dropped the rope. The area where she was attached had to do with the infidelity, and they don't address the craziness of Dr. Jay's thinking... it was accepted that he was disillusioned by "life" and feeling "unfulfilled"... well, cry me a river, LOL!! They also had the money to fly here and there, buy more wedding rings, etc.
If you are brave enough to follow my thread, you know I am really into this book... but I think it is only the tip of the iceberg of this story... they have made it solely about infidelity, and what circumstances create the vulnerability in a marriage for cheating. Judging by his other avowed behaviors, I believe he was in MLC for sure, and may still be. The distraction of the book fame and their website may keep him from the deep end... and may have given him his new purpose in life, which MLCers are searching for.
That being said... he does come to a lot of realizations about his own brokenness and that of his OW right at the end... and of how it was unfair to blame Julie for his unmet needs.... she was reacting to his "walls" against intimacy with her own withdrawal.... that is the fatal mistake of EVERY couple... withdrawing when there is a problem...
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I haven't finished it yet but he seemed to have started very early in the marriage on chasing another, pornography etc.. he seemed to be at that for a long time.....although it sure does sound like MLC.
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I'm on 7 1/2 months of NC - no pursuit on either side. I guess that means the love is dead and I should finalize the divorce. I guess that's the answer I've been looking for.
Loveinstweakness,
I know that you are having a really hard time. It must be really difficult NOT to hear anyting from your MLCer in so long....but this book, as noted, is NOT regarding MLCers. So, the timeline means nothing.
The suggestions regarding self focus and non-pursuiing were the take aways that I found in this book.
LIW - I am sorry that you are having such a rough time. No one can really know what is going on with your MLCer right now - but the lack of contact could mean many things. It is a change and many times change can mean movement through the tunnel.
I do not want to send false hope - because I, of course, don't know...but this lack of anything could be a time when he is deep, deep reflection (Depression/Withdrawal) and not communicating with ANYONE.
Only time will tell.
I am sorry that you are so sad......
Limitless
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I'm on 7 1/2 months of NC - no pursuit on either side. I guess that means the love is dead and I should finalize the divorce. I guess that's the answer I've been looking for.
Well they say for them to progress that they must think that the marriage is dead.
So maybe this is a good thing.
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One thing I did was created a reconciliation contract. I did it long before Sweetheart was ready, but made him review it when moving home even though he did not follow it.
Has anybody else done this? Created a reconciliation contract? My H is out of monster, not threatening to leave anymore but is still not himself. I do not want to spring one on him, but I would like to have something for the future because H is only in MLC month 7, and that makes me think monster will be back and H may actually move out of our home when monster reappears. I hate to think so negatively, but I also hate to be unrealistic.
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I have thought about writing a reconciliation contract. Although it's going to be years before I could ever use it, if then!
But I thought it would be a good mental and emotional exercise for me at this time, as a way to focus myself and make myself think hard about what I want for my future and what I want to be focusing on if/when my H would want to create a new marriage (for I understand, now, that the old one is truly over.)
RCR, would you be willing to share all or part of what you had in your contract? I understand that might not be something you want to do, but maybe the general concepts?
TMHP
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The Moon And Sixpence by Somerset Maughm. Man just up and leaves, wife sends another man to go find him to get him back.
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The Revenge of the Middle Aged Woman by Elizabeth Buchan. I enjoyed reading this book and it was before BD ... but after the first symptoms of MLC ... it was a good story and an interesting plot.
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I enjoy reading but have not looked for books about MLC. Watched some movies that approach the subject but let my readings go elsewhere.
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Love this thread! I've read a lot of the books listed here already. My faves include the Divorce Busting and Mars/Venus books. Tons of great info! I also like The Happiness Project a lot. Great for GAL. :)
I like to go to local library book sales. There are usually a ton of self help (and other) books for super cheap, and all the proceeds go to a good cause. Two that I picked up at the last sale are One-Way Relationships: When you love them more than they love you by Alfred Ellis and The Dance of Intimacy by Harriet Goldhor Lerner, Ph.D.
One-Way Relationships is written by a Christian therapist and focuses on working on one's own codependent issues. There were some good points made that really made me look at myself, and gave me a couple of a-ha! moments. But there was also what seemed like a lot of filler.
I just started The Dance of Intimacy but so far it is very good, and supportive of much of what is posted here on the board, such as focusing on the self, pursuer-distancer dynamic, FOO issues. I am looking forward to the rest of it.
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WP,
I really enjoyed The Happiness Project as well !! It was an uplifting read. I also enjoyed the book "Happy" by Robert Holden.
I love to read and actually set a personal goal to read 50 books this year ( figured it would help keep me away from thinking,... actually pursuing H ) I am a little bit behind however I have hit book # 32.
B
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Oh cool, I will check out that book "Happy" as well. Thanks Believer, I also love to read! And I am also diving into my books to help fill the time instead of obsessing on H. For awhile after BD I was way too depressed to be able to focus on reading at all, so I watched a lot of sitcoms and mindless TV shows. Even full length movies were too much for me to process at first. I'm glad to have reached the point where I can focus on other things again, even if only temporarily. My H is still paying for my Netflix account so maybe I should dust it off and order up a bunch of stuff to watch. I think I'm in the mood for a French film fest!
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I completely understand what you mean about it being nice to finally be able to focus on other things..
I'm not sure if you are a crafting person however in addition to reading I have found much peace in crafts. I make cards and scrapbook etc. however this past year I have decided that I wanted to paint. I wanted to do something whimsical and fun. I discovered a mixed media artist Christy Tomlinson online. I have just enrolled in a couple of her online workshops !! which works well for me and helps keep it affordable too. My next workshop will be the one called "She has Three Hearts"
I'm looking forward to it - it will be therapuetic for me to look at who I am and come up with the three different hearts. I have copied the link for anyone who may be interested.
I look at these creative projects as my gift to me.....and the best part you don't have to be an artist to do these ..gotta love that ;D
http://christytomlinson.typepad.com/christytomlinson/she-had-three-hearts-art-journaling-workshop.html
I realize it's not a book recommendation but it does help us grow...does that count ? ;D
Believer
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Oh yay, I love arts and crafts stuff! Mixed media is so much fun. I have a few friends that I get together with on occasion and we have craft night. I get in the mood sometimes on my own as well. I've enjoyed expressing myself creatively ever since I was little. :)
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I just got through reading " Why good people do bad things" by Debbie Ford. Excellent book. It describes the different masks people where to cover up the real issues that are going on inside. It talks about the different personality types. The one that stood out for me was "The People Pleaser" and why we do the things we do and accept less than we know we deserve.
This book almost describes certain personality types and MLC to the T, though its not a book on MLC. Its a book about how our pains from the past can emerge in our life later and cause us to where masks while loosing the true essence of who we really are...sounds familiar? I first got it thinking that it would give me some insight into my husbands head, which I did get alot of, but it also helped to understand things about myself. It really had me peeling away the layers of "me" to dig deep inside.
I highly reccommend this book!
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By the way, you can check your local library for the book. Thats where I got mine from.
Surviving
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Just finished the Isabel Gilles memoir, "It Happens Every Day," which is her memoir of being an LBS. It is a wonderful, authentic read, like listening to your best friend, but it is heartbreaking. In fact, it dredged up a lot of pain I thought I had calmed and put aside. Its an especially compelling read for me, as my own divorce approaches.
Her late 30-something husband left her and their two small boys for a colleague after seven years of marriage. I don't know if it was MLC; Isabel was actually his second wife. He had left his first wife while she was pregnant. Isabel did not stand. She does not address the idea in her book. Her H divorced very, very quickly (3 mos) and then married OW and had a baby with her. Isabel has remarried herself. I am now reading her sequel, "A Year and Six Seconds," about how she found peace and love again. It's also very good. I also read some press interviews she did, in which she says she is now friends with OW. But I find this almost super-human.
Isabel Gillies books are far more emotionally honest than a similar divorce memoir I read, "Falling Apart in One Piece," by Stacy Morrison. Her story sounds much more like MLC, but I feel that she glosses over a lot of the relationship issues. Not as validating and inspiring as the Gillies books.
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Thanks Believer,
I'm really inspired!. Just checked out the website sounds like fun but also theraputic.
Mind you, I have 3 quilts and a cross stitch I need to finish too!
A craft store near by is closing down and I'm very tempted to see what I can grab and then sign up. The 3 hearts sounds like something us LBS's could really get into.
I was thinking about starting a GAL discussion thread where we could all put some ideas down to inspire each other. Do you mind if I copy your post to it?
SP
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SP,
I think a GAL thread is a wonderful idea! And by all means feel free to copy my post to it.
I just completed my very first quilt recently- a flannel rag quilt! I loved it and it is so cozy!!. I have always wanted to quilt so I am taking lessons. I'm sure I'll end up like you with many on the go.. LOL!
I have an awesome craft room that H had made for me. It is my favourite room in the house. I can get totally consumed in there! I just love it! It really has been my safe haven through all of this MLC turmoil.
Believer
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Oh Believer, a CRAFT ROOM......I'm jealous!
I did buy a great long table for $20 at a garage sale. It is higher than normal so also great for preparing my wedding bouquets on or cutting my quilt fabric.
I love those rag quilts. They do look cosy. I've nearly finshed my D's quilt and then I've got to keep going with the boy's quilts. S9's I'm designing. he loves train, so it has steam engine fabric etc but I'm trying to work out how to place it all together so it doesn't look like a mess.
I'm in a great group of ladies where we meet at the instructors home. Her H makes coffee for us all and we have a great time chatting and receiving advice on our quilting progress.
Must dash down to that craft store now!!
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I just got my copy of The Solo Partner from Amazon yesterday. I read through chapters 8 and 9 (on pursuit and distancing) about 3 times in a row as soon as I opened it. I didn't even sit down. I will probably be reading them over and over, as well as eventually the rest of the book as well. If you don't have a copy already, and especially if you are dealing with a natural distancer or an extreme distancer, I HIGHLY recommend it!
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If I can find an electronic copy of The Solo Partner, I may start another discussion thread like the one for Forgive For Love.
(Electronic copies make it a lot easier to copy-and-paste quotes for discussion purposes, and I don't have to prop a book open while I'm typing.)
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Yeah, I read all the threads and links about the book on here first. Good stuff! I can't quite put my finger on what it was about the book itself that hit it home for me that much more. Obviously the author explains it in a bit more detail, over a couple chapters as opposed to a couple pages. Maybe it was just his manner of writing, maybe I was just in the right place to read it... Whatever it was, BAM! It just hit me. I think it would have been highly applicable to me and my H even without a MLC thrown in the works.
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I'd like to recommend the book The Shadow Side of Intimate Relationships - What's Going On Behind The Scenes by Douglas Moseley and Naomi Moseley.
Quote => "This book is a must read for folks who desire a deeper understanding of marriage dynamics." John Bradshaw
Very eye opening...
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Copied from my thread...
I just read the Tao of Pooh, by Benjamin Hoff, and I HIGHLY recommend it to all LBSr's (and probably all of our MLCr's as well, but you know they're not going to read it).
Here is a passage that I think is perfect for us:
There are things about ourselves that we need to get rid of; there are things we need to change. But at the same time, we do not need to be too desperate, too ruthless, too combative. Along the way to usefulness and happiness, many of those things will change themselves, and the others can be worked on as we go. The first thing we need to do is trust our own Inner Nature, and not lose sight of it.
There is also a passage regarding the Bisy Backson (our MLCrs):
All work and no play makes Backson a dull boy. Kept up for long enough, it makes him dead, too.
I found such wisdom in this book and it's a really quick read. Couple it with the other self focus work you are doing. It's just so simple, and it is right on with RCR's principles.
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Copied from my thread...
I just read the Tao of Pooh, by Benjamin Hoff, and I HIGHLY recommend it to all LBSr's (and probably all of our MLCr's as well, but you know they're not going to read it).
Here is a passage that I think is perfect for us:
There are things about ourselves that we need to get rid of; there are things we need to change. But at the same time, we do not need to be too desperate, too ruthless, too combative. Along the way to usefulness and happiness, many of those things will change themselves, and the others can be worked on as we go. The first thing we need to do is trust our own Inner Nature, and not lose sight of it.
There is also a passage regarding the Bisy Backson (our MLCrs):
All work and no play makes Backson a dull boy. Kept up for long enough, it makes him dead, too.
I found such wisdom in this book and it's a really quick read. Couple it with the other self focus work you are doing. It's just so simple, and it is right on with RCR's principles.
[/quote
Ok dont get me wrong here... life is all about constant improvement... that is what we do... but I am currious... sometimes... I get a little fed up with it all. I know I might be interpreting it to the extreme... and maybe I am wrong... but just because our MLCer went off the deep end... does that mean WE have to change.. again... this is in the context of we are all changing and growing all the time... and because of the situation... growth and change has been accelerated... but the way I read this sometimes is we all suck and need to learn to get a life... which I understand is is a fundamental tenant of all of this... but it almost seems to be in direct conflict with.. this is about them.. not us. I didnt do anything wrong... W had a screwed up childhood... I thought she had gotten over it... turns out not so much... Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here? Not trying to derail your thread... :/
Me.
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Ziggee,
Try to think of it with yourself removed. Your W was going to go off the deep end with or without you. You have absolutely no control over that, so to think in any way, shape or form that you do is just you swimming against the current. Per the book:
"What we need to do is recognize Inner Nature and work with Things As They Are. When we don't, we get into trouble."
Your W is currently batsh*t crazy. Work with it. What could you do now that you couldn't or wouldn't before? What is something you could do or say that you held back on before? The fact is, you made sacrifices to be in your marriage. We all did. You don't have to keep up the sacrificing. You can Be. Anything. Work with Things As They Are.
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Ziggee,
Try to think of it with yourself removed. Your W was going to go off the deep end with or without you. You have absolutely no control over that, so to think in any way, shape or form that you do is just you swimming against the current. Per the book:
"What we need to do is recognize Inner Nature and work with Things As They Are. When we don't, we get into trouble."
Your W is currently batsh*t crazy. Work with it. What could you do now that you couldn't or wouldn't before? What is something you could do or say that you held back on before? The fact is, you made sacrifices to be in your marriage. We all did. You don't have to keep up the sacrificing. You can Be. Anything. Work with Things As They Are.
Yes sacrifices... maybe... but I dont know that I would change any one of them... my wife always says I am too willing to settle... or maybe... it just does not take a whole lot to amuse me and make me happy. I am amused by just about anything... Now this kinda bugs me... we have 6 kids... 6 kids is not cheep... she has almost everyone at my work goes away for the winter for an all exclusive trip. Well that is her dream... and sure we can do that.. once.. one every 10 years... but guess what.. we all made our choices... they have 2.1 kids and get to go on trips every year... we... will have a stink load of grandchildren... and I am guessing at least one of the six will take care of me when I get old and need my diaper changed :)...
I am growing and changing everyday... that is part of life.. after spending a childhood of learning and adapting feeling differant.. I am finally comfortable in my skin. I am willing to make adjustments kind of adjustments... it just sometimes feels like no one was ever good enough when the whole point is.. this is not about us... it is about them. I know W wants something more for herself right now and as misdirected and confused is it is all coming out... I would be so cool with her chasing her bliss.. but you also have to live with your choices and cant just walk away from those choices because it is not convenient...
I think we are might be on two different channels here? As us geeks say..... parity error... there has to be a geek here who gets that :/
Me
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I am willing to make adjustments kind of adjustments... it just sometimes feels like no one was ever good enough when the whole point is.. this is not about us... it is about them.
And your life continues to be about her. Stop giving her that privilege! Make your life about you. Have you thought about taking your kids camping? Cheaper than a "dream vacation" but could be just as much if not more fun. My neighbors took a trip across America and camped the whole way. They LOVED it.
Yea, MLC sucks and it sucks they are doing this. But stop making her crisis your crisis. You DON'T deserve that. Give yourself better.
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hey ziggee, the way i see it is this - the MLC is not our fault, but it has traumatic repurcussions for us which we can learn and grow from and part of the way that we do that is a choice. If we just allow our emotional reactions to rule, or we do not use them as a tool for reflecting then we may still change, but it may not be a direction of growth that is good for us.
Ever meet one of those divorced people who is STILL bitter about the way they were treated 10-15 years ago? I think that this is the point. What happened to them CHANGED them, but they also got stuck in reactions and habits relating to an event in their life - they have gone on to let that event DEFINE who they are.
So working on us is partly about learning to accept what happened to our lives and being able to see at as something that happened to us in our past - it is part of our history. As LBS's whether we are back with our spouses in 10 years or living on our own, or with someone new, it is imperative that we learn to direct the process of change in ourselves so that we live life in a way where we choose how we interact with our past, other people (including our MLCers) and even ourselves.
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I guess that is the point... its not about me... so why do I need to make adjustments? While as I said before.. I may still be in the denial phase... why can't I just keep doing what I am doing... why do I have to go do something I would not normally do? I half get what you are saying... but quite frankly... I liked the duality of our life... her need to get out.. did that half the time... and my need to just hang and read a book... did that half the time... Now I read books.. read what people say here... get out a little less... but that has more to do with I am both husband and wife at the same time... Really... I have a been thinking about taking off for a week... but quite frankly... I am afraid to leave... because who is going to make dinner? I need to get away... but I can not... :/ Every time I plan to get out.. I can't there would be no one home... I guess I am not pushing against you... but it seems odd... if we did nothing wrong... why are we changing something?
Oh well...
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if we did nothing wrong... why are we changing something?
Just because we did nothing to cause their MLC does not mean that there aren't other issues in the marriage that we can address.
And we are going through a crisis as much as our MLCers are, only we're more aware of it. One of the things we can do to help us recover is to not live in the same old patterns we were in before the BD, that remind us of everything that we're missing.
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Ziggee,
I was just reading your posts and I smiled because I remember saying, or asking, the same things you have quite some time ago. The questions I had were the same as yours and they were...
If this is his problem, why do I have to change?
I was happy, I was a good spouse, why do I need to work on things?
And so on...
I have to tell you, this stuff drove me nuts. I was resentful quite frankly. I hadn't caused this issue, I hadn't done anything to deserve the way I was treated...but I had to change?
The funny thing is, I DID change. In some ways, for worse. At least as of right now. But in more ways, for the better. It wasn't something I wanted to do, or even felt I needed to do but it just sort of happened. I know for some people self reflection as an LBS is essential but for others, it's almost an insult...at least that is how I felt. But it happened to me anyway. There are changes I don't like. I don't have that naivete that I once had that was actually, pretty glorious. I am more cynical. But I am also stronger. I am more of myself and not just one part of a marriage. I'm not sure I wanted it to be that way but that's what happened and what is good about that is that I know I won't die without him. I actually thought I would at one point.
I don't mean to imply these are your thoughts..they are mine...but what I think we have in common is that sort of irritant when hearing about having to change when we didn't do anything wrong and didn't necessarily want to change...all I'm saying is, your not alone in feeling this way.
Hope that helps.
Bon
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ziggee, noone is saying that you have to change everything about yourself. My guess is that most of us have some minor adjustments we need to make, some tweaking here and there. Or one or two areas of our personalities that need some more significant work. But we are not the ones in crisis and we did not wreck our marriages because we had some flaws. But that also does not mean that any marriage problems that existed (regardless of MLC) had nothing to do with us either! So we can work on ourselves because no-one is perfect and it is good for us to always strive to be better people, without accepting blame for the MLC!
For instance, just when I think that I am moving on, anger wells up in me. What is wrong with that, why shouldn't I be angry? The answer is that I should. But the answer is also that I don't want to always be an angry person, I don't want my anger to define me. So I work on ways to move on from it, to let it out or let it pass. I try to let it go. It would be easier to hang on to - it is a very powerful and intense emotion. But I don't want to be an angry person.
It is the same with the trust issues I now have. I accept that I may never blindly trust again and maybe that is good, but I also don't want to never be able to have a meaningful bond with someone again because I have lost all ability to trust. You see what I mean?
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Bonbon,
I agree completely... I have changed BIG time. I am closer to my kids then I could ever be. I have realized things about myself that I never could have in a million years... and a lot of those things I actually discovered in here. I have found that there are things I will now "accept" I would have never dreamed of accepting... here I am standing... 1 year ago... I would have said... no way I would put up with that crap.
anyway... I get it... feeling same as yours... I was arguing with my self that day... will probably argue with myself in front of everyone again soon...
Me
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Ziggee,
Your "inner-arguer" serves you well so don't worry about it! LOL!
We all do that. I still bristle at the thought of having to work on myself. I don't at all mean to be arrogant...I have at least one million faults...but again, I maintain that I was a good wife and we had a good marriage...not perfect...but pretty good. The fact that my H flipped out over turning 45 and whatever else was/is bothering him had nothing to do with me and in fact, he will be the first to tell you that as he has told me many times. I'm sure alot of people here would say the same thing about their own relationships too.
I will tell you this too: Whatever work I did on myself was out of necessity to survive this thing myself and try to keep my marriage together...it was never out of some inner deepness that I had and again, some of the changes to me may be good in the long run, like, taking off the rose colored glasses about my husband, but with that said, I think if my husband realizes how I've changed now, or when he does, he will regret those changes much more than I ever will.
Before, were he dangling from a cliff, if it meant losing my own life I would save him, no question I would have. Now, not so sure about that. Time will tell I guess. And that's too bad because I think he had a really good thing with me being 100% devoted and pretty selfless when it came to him. I guess he still has that since I've "stood" but not in the same way...not with the 100% it was before.
At any rate, I think it's good to question what you've questioned. Part of saying to yourself that no, you did not need to change is just as productive for yourself as some of those changes that ARE made...that sounds convoluted but what I mean is that in this nightmare, there is a part of one's self that should be held on to....I call that standards, self respect and so on. In the beginning of this madness, I told myself and told my husband I would do anything, anything at all to make him feel the way about me he had prior to all this. About a year after that, I turned that all around and that is when I told him if there were issues in our marriage he wanted to work on together, great, let's get on with it. But that if he wanted me to change simply because he thought I should be more this or less that, then go to hell...NOT going to happen. I like myself, warts and all.
So that's why I think it's good that you question why any of us should have to change...
You feel that you have changed because you hadn't envisioned yourself standing...that may change too and you say, no, I will stand for this but I won't stand for that...its all a process.
I'm delighted you are closer to your kids. Excellent. My faith has deepened immeasurably and I'm positive about that change in myself for sure.
Hope I've made sense. Whew...didn't realize I was going to write so much!
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Bonbon...
Thank you very for all that... I hear you on what you will stand for now and what you might stand for later. I do sit here and scratch my head because I know one thing is for certain. I do not want to spend the rest of my life with out a partner. Quite frankly I need a hug from time to time and while kids hugs are great... because they are so honest. Which even reminds me... my wife used to give the best most honest heart felt hugs. I guess while I sit here... it is just one more proof that she is confused about the mlc script statements about the past 22 years married and 25 years together. I know I have gone back a looked at photographs from the last 5 years and I make photo books every year for chirstmas and I look at those and know she was not "faking" it to please others.
Thanks... that was almost a pep talk :)
Me
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Ziggee,
I'll have to go and catch up your thread...sorry I haven't done that yet. Between my recent vacation, a raging head cold and a few other things, I've only caught up with folks on this forum here and there...
At any rate, it is hard to live without those hugs. One day at a time my friend....you will be just fine in the long haul.
Bon
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Ziggee,
I'll have to go and catch up your thread...sorry I haven't done that yet. Between my recent vacation, a raging head cold and a few other things, I've only caught up with folks on this forum here and there...
At any rate, it is hard to live without those hugs. One day at a time my friend....you will be just fine in the long haul.
Bon
Bonbon.... no need to read the thread... read the MLC script... it would be a big fat ditto... on the down cycle waiting for the up :/
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I just finished reading a novel called Revenge of the Middle-Aged Woman:
http://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Middle-Aged-Woman-Elizabeth-Buchan/dp/0142003727
Although fiction, it was a very realistic depiction of a husband going through a MLC, and the fallout it has on his wife and family. It is written from the point of view of the wife, and it is interesting to see her thought processes and actions throughout.
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Ziggee,
I'll have to go and catch up your thread...sorry I haven't done that yet. Between my recent vacation, a raging head cold and a few other things, I've only caught up with folks on this forum here and there...
At any rate, it is hard to live without those hugs. One day at a time my friend....you will be just fine in the long haul.
Bon
Oh I get so lost in these threads... How is the head cold? I have no doubt I will be fine in the long haul... in fact... I am 100% confident the kids will be fine too... they are all strong... we are all strong... we had a good influence for a long time who made us all that way... it is her I worry about the most. Hrmmmm that and welll if this goes on really long... I really dont look forward to dealing with daughter issues... :/
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I am reading a lovely little book right now called Soul Gardening. Thoughts on spirituality, life and gardens that put me in the mood to go outside and dig around in the dirt. :)
http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Gardening-Terry-Hershey/dp/0806640375/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323640495&sr=8-1
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Digging in the Dirt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4HpOaASy34)
Something in me, dark and sticky
All the time it's getting strong
No way of dealing with this feeling
Can't go on like this too long
...
I'm digging in the dirt
Stay with me I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
To open up the places I got hurt
Digging in the dirt
To find the places we got hurt
Z.
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I'm reading this
http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034
for many reasons but mainly because communication with my h is poor and I want to grow, so I am determined to learn new ways of communicating so as to pave the way.
It may not make any difference to my h but if I learn this way of communicating It will make a difference to ME and that is all I can do x
New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1965.0