Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: megogirl on May 22, 2019, 05:57:05 PM
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The topic is pretty cut and dry.
You're divorced, and never speak. You have nothing to keep you connected, other than alimony payments.
So what, exactly, would make them feel as though you are "slipping away?" i.e., how does the scenario that I've just described not qualify as full-on 'SLIPPED' away?!"
Just curious & thanx, in advance.....
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I honestly have no idea. I think well, I know in my xh's case, that they snoop, so as long as you're not with anyone else, in their mind, you're still on the backburner for them. Idk. I haven't been speaking to my xh but he contacts my brother to ask about me, and my brother replies regardless of what I say.
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I don't know how your divorce was set up Mego but most women can't get alimony if they get remarried.
Is that how yours is?
You also have to keep in mind if you ever remarry you would be unable to collect on his SS.
But you can collect as long as you were married for 10 years. You just can't remarry.
Now if he dies you can collect and remarry.
That's the current info I have gotten.
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You also have to keep in mind if you ever remarry you would be unable to collect on his SS.
But you can collect as long as you were married for 10 years. You just can't remarry.
This applies to both men and women, unless you are the lower wage earner and make too much.
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How did “what makes them finally quit?” Turn into not getting alimony if you remarry?
Did I miss something?
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Mine knows that I am seeing someone and he said he hopes I find happiness. I don't think that they all care if you are slipping away.
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Not sure Nah
Mego said if it's the only connection there is is money and when Pen posted if there's no one else you are seeing the mlcer thinks you are on the back burner for them.
I thought about the slipping away part as getting remarried and included money in that.
And Tah Dah here we are. ;D
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Oh, haha... got it. Funny how sometimes these discussions can go in different directions.
“So what makes them finally quit?”
I guess like everything else, it depends on the situation.
Some will say when the LBS is “slipping away”, I confess, in the early days when I read that theory, that was a big reason I started to date right from the beginning. I figured if he thought I was slipping away he would come running back. He didn’t.
So I guess a bigger question would be, “what makes YOU finally quit?”
What would make you stop looking at the closed door behind you and focus on what’s ahead?
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So I guess a bigger question would be, “what makes YOU finally quit?”
What would make you stop looking at the closed door behind you and focus on what’s ahead?
BINGO
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My "slipping away" only incited anger, although she may have sensed a lot of it was false bravado, as has been mentioned here numerous times.
I started going out and she monstered. Said I'd better not be with anyone that might screw us up if she fell back in love during mediation. ???
Any attempts to GAL by me early on were met by rage and further accusations.
This devolved into "you may as well start firetrucking other people, I guess I need to get used to it" and "go firetruck me out of your system."
Any attempt by me to get her into mediation (a sure sign I'm slipping away???) was met by anger, deflection, more reasons I was at fault, and subtle breadcrumbs.
My most recent attempt to get her back to mediation resulted in her saying she'd get back to me, and then getting a lawyer and filing D. She still hasn't told me she's done it, and I dont think she knows I know. I'm retaining an attorney this morning. 8)
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Have you ever considered that when someone divorces you, it may be precisely because they WANT you to slip away? Or simply because they are done with you? Personally, I believe that there is all the difference in the world between a wayward MLCer who one is still married to and a divorcee. After a divorce, I don't care why the divorce happened (MLC or whatever), it's over. I know they say live like the MLCer isn't coming back, and while I don't agree with that saying in the case where there is still marriage because I think it is disrespectful of the marriage, but if I were divorced, I would live like I wasn't coming back simply because I would not want to come back.
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No.....and that's the exact reason that I brought this up.
Monster wants a divorce at any cost, so the spouse is then forced to slip far, far away. But we also know that Monster's feeling aren't "real". They are temporary, and Monster is just an ever-fleeting personality of MLC.
And according to Stayed's H, if they broke up "it would be so romantic getting back together".......and that he only woke up when he felt that he "was in danger of actually losing Stayed." So, what was it that finally caused him to sense "danger"?
Denjef31 also echoed this when she said to "stay the course and don't believe a word of it, even if you get divorced." (paraphrasing.)
So if divorce doesn't qualify as "slipping away"......then what does?
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I would venture to guess that, if it is really an MLC, then the "danger point" for them is when the LBS moves on and starts to be interested in a new R, a new life. In your specific case, since contact is restricted, it may be a moot point for you because your x won't be aware except as it impacts the alimony situation
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Each case is different. My husband did not divorce me for 9 years after BD. BD was in 2009, legal seperation in 2011. I have no idea why he divorced me. To my knowledge there is not an OW.
A good friend of mine from HS was divorced, had her marriage annulled and both she and husband were in relationships...after 7 years they were remarried to one another.
I don't know that you can predict anything. For those of us who want reconciliation, we yearn so deeply for something to be able to see a pattern...but mainly when I read what mego 's question is that she thinks she can do something that will change the outcome. Stayed's situation is NOT what happens in any other case but their situation. It just isn't.
I am not sure the outcome can be changed except by the MLCer deciding that life was not better...and for some, even if life isn't better, they stay away anyway thinking that it would just be too darn hard to try and make it work again.
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I read what mego 's question is that she thinks she can do something that will change the outcome. Stayed's situation is NOT what happens in any other case but their situation. It just isn't.
AMEN
I think that you can do things that will make the situation worse but you can do nothing that will make it better.
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Again, each situation is different.
Even the divorced or not divorced. If a marriage license didn’t mean anything to them, why would a divorce certificate? Now, maybe that has meaning to the LBS, but that’s why we say WE get to say how this story ends.
Here’s what happened in MY situation...
I filed w/i days of BD. I thought it would shake him up. He dragged his feet for over a year (didn’t show up to a scheduled hearing and told her I was the one delaying). What she was doing on her end?, I really don’t know but most likely manipulating. He bought a house while we were still married, and only then did he sign when he realized he would soon get in a bigger financial mess owning two houses. You guys often talk about brain issues, I’m telling you that man went from being brilliant to barely being able to put together a sentence. That’s why I did well financially, he was easily manipulated.
So, if I was still “waiting” I don’t think the divorce would have stopped either one of us. Btw... a couple that we both knew for over 25 years divorced years ago and remarried. The divorce doesn’t make it over, you do.
That being said. The Leaver married his affair partner. I married a man that I love very much. Our kids are adults and we no longer have any financial ties. So we should e completely out of each other’s lives, right?
Nope.
We still message once in awhile. Sometimes friendly, sometimes not.
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but mainly when I read what mego 's question is that she thinks she can do something that will change the outcome
Not really, but I can see why you'd think that.
It's more that curiosity is killing this cat, and a tad of frustration.
Because I still don't understand how being divorced, with almost zero communication, doesn't qualify as having "slipped away". For as long as I live, I will never understand that......
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OK, so if being divorced qualifies as slipped away...then what does it mean regarding MLC? Do you think that if he thinks he is in danger of losing you, that you have slipped away, that will shake him up to come back? That is how I read what you are saying.
There are some on HS who do believe that.
I don't since MLC is not a marriage problem and it wasn't about me as a spouse...I agree with OP, there are things you can do to make it worse. Occasionally we read of someone who due to a death or illness may return because of the "shock" of that...I have not seen that happen very often though.
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I read what mego 's question is that she thinks she can do something that will change the outcome. Stayed's situation is NOT what happens in any other case but their situation. It just isn't.
AMEN
I think that you can do things that will make the situation worse but you can do nothing that will make it better.
Where's the like / thumbs up button!?
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If I remember right, Stayed was leaving the country they had lived in.
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Because I still don't understand how being divorced, with almost zero communication, doesn't qualify as having "slipped away".
Being divorced and zero communication means he quit. Not sure what else one can do to ‘quit’ M definitively. It does not mean M cannot be restored some time in the future (though as rare as a hen’s teeth, unfortunately) but for the time being, it is done. Gone.
As for ‘slipped away’, it might make more sense to say ‘he slipped away’? LBS is sometimes not ready to accept that MLCer slipped away, hence lots of thinky time devoted to the possibility of return and how that can happen. I wasted quite a bit of time doing just that... What a colossal waste of time that was! Time is better spent on self reflection and growing because it does pay concrete dividends.
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Listen to Acorn it's a total waste of time in your life to wonder about that possibility of having anything else to do with them. It's a slim chance and you need this time to focus on you. You now work on letting go.
Again he knows where you are, he sends you your checks and you two have a son. It all may lack emotional support and what you need. Hardly ideal if you still want to have some kind of relationship.
I would work on me. Sometimes the LBS doesn't want the Mlcer back. They have grown and moved on and are not interested in helping or being there to watch Humptey Dumpty put himself back together again.
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As for ‘slipped away’, it might make more sense to say ‘he slipped away’? LBS is sometimes not ready to accept that MLCer slipped away, hence lots of thinky time devoted to the possibility of return and how that can happen. I wasted quite a bit of time doing just that... What a colossal waste of time that was! Time is better spent on self reflection and growing because it does pay concrete dividends.
This! I'm at the point where I see it as a waste of time too but I can't seem to snap out of it! I actually want to feel done, I don't care about him thinking or fearing it, I want to be done for me.. He LEFT!! Yes, he's having a crisis, yes, he might want back SOME say... Yes, I still love him but he doesn't love me... I really can't understand why it's so difficult to see he slipped away... Ugh
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This! I'm at the point where I see it as a waste of time too but I can't seem to snap out of it! I actually want to feel done, I don't care about him thinking or fearing it, I want to be done for me.. He LEFT!! Yes, he's having a crisis, yes, he might want back SOME say... Yes, I still love him but he doesn't love me... I really can't understand why it's so difficult to see he slipped away... Ugh
(Sorry. Screwed up the quote feature.) :-[ fixed it for you. :)
One Day - I felt the same way this morning at 8:00 as I sat outside my soon to be hired attorneys office dreading filling out a response to a divorce filing I still haven't been informed by STBXW had actually been filed back on the 7th. I told the new attorney "I don't want to be here." I texted friends and said "I don't want to be here." I told God "I don't want to be here." I walked out about an hour ago $4000.00 lighter in the bank account. I was whistling by the time I got in the car.
The single act of taking control and not waiting anymore snapped me out of it. Might I cycle back down tonight or tomorrow or a week from now? Darn tootin'! But for right now, I feel 1000 times lighter.
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I would venture to guess that, if it is really an MLC, then the "danger point" for them is when the LBS moves on and starts to be interested in a new R, a new life. In your specific case, since contact is restricted, it may be a moot point for you because your x won't be aware except as it impacts the alimony situation
UM, I don't agree with you here. I firmly believe that my xh is in MLC and yet I divorced him! I believed that the SA and divorce would wake him up. It didn't. He says he still loves me but it is time to experience new things with new partners. If that is not MLC talk then I don't know what is :o
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A very complex question for many reasons.....
Firstly, this may not even be MLC. Lets just face it ..not every man that acts this way is in MLC. It absolutely could be that he just wants out and got out . Period. There is no way to know with 100% certainty that a MLC is what is happening . There is no "blood test". They may well follow a similar "script"...still, you truly do not know. No one knows for sure . Not you and not me. Period. So they may never "quit". You could be waiting for nothing. Which is why GAL and moving forward "as if" they are not returning .
Secondly.. they may in fact complete this journey , and still decide not to return to their old life and marriage . There may be a thousand reasons that they do not look back...we do not know. Many do not return. Many LBS do not want them as the trauma is too deep and everything is lost. Those that do return , may not successfully re-establish their marriage or build the "new" one. It is a crap shoot to put it mildly.
Thirdly ... if you are using any information to form some kind of strategy or "manufacture" a situation they may influence him to return...well, that is doomed as well. It was NEVER about you . You can not influence or steer the outcome . Period. He may or may not see any change and in all likelihood it will not have an impact on him. Especially in replay. He is busy . He is in his own crisis and anything from you just interferes and interrupts his journey. He is busy responding to you ( likely with monster) and has taken his focus off his own issues . The more you attempt to manipulate, communicate, throw darts at him etc ... the more certain he becomes that you are indeed nuts and leaving was the best thing he ever did. Truth.
You cannot talk with such certainties . That there is an "absolute "...well, anything. There are NONE. When will he "quit"?... as if he factually will ? He may NEVER "quit" as you say. You cannot wait for that as if it will factually and absolutely happen.
It is 100% the truth when you are asked " when will YOU quit?" . That is the far bigger and more important question. YOU only have control over YOU ...and that is hard enough for a LBS. Focus on you only . That's it, that's all. He may never return and for you to think only in concrete fact that it is only a "matter of time" is simply wrong. You do not know that . None of us could ever know that . Leave him 100% alone ( no more court dates !!!! ) and look in the mirror and practice meeting yourself, love yourself, plan your future, re-train etc etc ...live as if he will never return. IF he does... you will be stronger, healthier and wiser. Fact.
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... you will be stronger, healthier and wiser. Fact.
Bam! Perfectly stated. It is all about US, b/c we cannot ever control or predict what they will do. Honestly if My H came back today, in the current state he is in, I don't want him. He is a liar, cheater and abandoner. TO both me and our dear son, who he has also abandoned. He has stated many times, through tearful eyes, that S and I have "moved on" and don't need him anymore. I viewed that as him getting justification for his own "moving on." But, well, they never really do if they are stuck in the tunnel. And only the MLCer can make his/her way out. NOTHING we do will help that--as pounded into me by the awesome veterans here time and time again.
Mego, as a direct answer to your question, I believe that, assuming it is MLC, there is a point where they actually WANT us to move on b/c it justifies their behavior. Their mindset may change on a dime. But certainly, at the beginning of the crisis, some just want to be rid of us and never look back....until they do.
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He may never return and for you to think only in concrete fact that it is only a "matter of time" is simply wrong. You do not know that . None of us could ever know that
No, I know that I'm not a special snowflake. It's INTUITION (RCR called it "Intuitive knowing").
Obviously, I don't "know" anything. But my instincts on this one are very strong. In the meantime, I'm swingin' single.
I do still have that gaggle of cats I need to acquire......
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I do still have that gaggle of cats I need to acquire......
LOL. You are funny! Careful, it's a slippery slope. I have 2. If my S had a say, we'd have about 14 by now.
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He may never return and for you to think only in concrete fact that it is only a "matter of time" is simply wrong. You do not know that . None of us could ever know that
No, I know that I'm not a special snowflake. It's INTUITION (RCR called it "Intuitive knowing").
Obviously, I don't "know" anything. But my instincts on this one are very strong. In the meantime, I'm swingin' single.
I do still have that gaggle of cats I need to acquire......
Mego, I'm going to ask you a question that I ask myself... Is that intuition or are you still in denial? I don't mean to offend you in any way.. I have that "intuition" too... Yet, I'm starting to think that by having it, I'm denying he left for good... Thinking that it's a crisis and he might be back, might be the bargaining stage of grief.. And by staying in this state of mind, I'm preventing myself from moving forward... Right now, I see my hope and intuition like more of a hindrance than something positive.. I'm not saying you are going through the same but maybe it's worth reflecting on it for a while? Just my 2 cents.
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No offense taken.....
But I'm confident it's not a "denial"-thing. Once I learned all about MLC everything fit together like a glove, and I knew WHAT had happened to him. WHEN it happened to him. WHERE it happened to him. And WHY it happened to him. I'd connected every dot!
Hard to explain, but I just "know"....so, it's pretty easy to trust my gut. :)
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In the meantime, what are you doing in case your intuition is wrong? I am asking as a stander of almost 10 years who would still like my husband to come back home and I still have hope that he will...but he very well may not.
Have you looked into your financial situation for the future?
Any thoughts about furthering your education so you might have employable skills?
Where can you meet some new people to allow you to interact with? My friends are my lifeline. They support me, I support them and my "activities" all in all make my life much more enjoyable.
How are you taking care of mego in case your husband either remains stuck in his crisis or for many other reasons even if he resolves his crisis, he still may not feel he could ever come back.
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Sorry, but I can't/don't think that way......
I don't trust my instincts on much. I guess I've never had to.
And I don't know how long this will officially take, but I know I've always been the "sane" one in this household. The "rock" - as coined by XH. The pragmatic one. And the one who had her family's head on straight, even as XH ventured on his merry way for 3 years of Replay activities, just prior to BD.
My interests have never been at the front & center.....so, I'm pretty used to it.....
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Barbie makes a lot of good points in her post above.
I would just like to say the jury is out on what wakes them up. Yeah, you can say that Stayed's husband said one thing but then think about someone like Watcher's wife. She seems so incredibly grateful that Watcher "waited" for her. It just depends. Some seem to be more driven by fear of loss and others more impressed with faithfulness.
And add to the fact that if you really have virtually no contact with them, they will assume you have moved on wtihout them unless you are doing stuff like sending silly text messages and greeting cards, in which case they will just consider you a stalker.
I strongly suspect that most MLCers who do have it within them to return are in some way trying to maintain that contact at some level. They may do that by disappearing, yet not divorcing, or vice versa. Or neither divorcing nor disappearing.
As Barbie said, not everyone here is dealing with an MLCer. Normal people who divorce have little contact so I don't see how that means anything at all.
Some people on here describe cases that I think are slam dunk MLC. Others do not describe something that looks slam dunk like MLC. Some describe situations that look like a spouse fed up with their wife/husband and bailed. Simple as that. But in those cases maybe the LBS has some responsibility and no one is going to admit that to themselves and this forum isn't about that so anyone in that situation is going to bury their heads in the sand.
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No offense taken.....
But I'm confident it's not a "denial"-thing. Once I learned all about MLC everything fit together like a glove, and I knew WHAT had happened to him. WHEN it happened to him. WHERE it happened to him. And WHY it happened to him. I'd connected every dot!
Hard to explain, but I just "know"....so, it's pretty easy to trust my gut. :)
Oh so it's only MLC... that's why you know he will come back?
Name a MLC stereotype, any MLC stereotype... The Leaver fits every single MLC stereotype like a glove. If it was a contest, I think he might win the trophy!
"Hard to explain, but you just "know"... oh, you don't have to explain. I lived it. I knew, with every cell of my body I just knew. I used to write about it on here in the early days, I knew 100% that he was coming back. The MLC was obvious, like I said, it fit like a glove, he was dragging his feet with the divorce that I filed, I heard all kinds of gossip how he and the affair partner were always fighting, etc.
I was so sure...
I was wrong.
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I am playing armchair therapist here mego but I had an insight about something that you might wish to talk about in therapy.
You "postponed" your court hearing and seem to think that the charges are going to go away.
You do not wish to prepare yourself to enter the work force or consider what the financial implications will be in 5 year's time when maintenance payments stop..again, "postponing" taking care of your financial security for a later date.
Your son is 16. I imagine he will be leaving for college in a year or two yet you "postpone" going out and meeting new people..how will it be when your son is gone?
Any of the things suggested to you do not stop you reconciling with your husband IF he ever wishes to, but they do empower you and give you control over your own life.
The choice is yours...we can only suggest things that we have seen every LBSer have to do in order to survive financially and emotionally.
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I knew, with every cell of my body I just knew. I used to write about it on here in the early days, I knew 100% that he was coming back.
Did you ever receive phone calls from the "Prisoner" personality? The pathetic one that begged for your forgiveness, etc.?
I did. And it was only after I'd hung up the phone that I put two-and-two together and realized, "OMG - that was the 'Prisoner!'"
Because up until then, I'd had no clue what RCR was talking about. The personality literally came to life for me, and everything that she'd written about suddenly made sense. It was an A-HA moment, if ever there was one!
So that confirmed 100% MLC for me. No question whatsoever.
Someone here the other day asked, "What 'option' am I, Plan A? Or Plan B?" The answer? "Neither. Because it's not a choice. There IS no other option."
That resonated with me..........
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GIG.. I dunno. We're divorcing, she says she's not moving home. Our contact is way down, but she still tries to reach out like we're best friends still.
Is she selfishly trying to keep me from moving on? Is she delusional? Is she just hoping I'll hold on enough for one day, which makes me the second, back burner option?
I dunno.. I just know I'll burn myself out worrying and I think I don't care anymore.
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Is she just hoping I'll hold on enough for one day, which makes me the second, back burner option?
I'm just going to heed the advice of all those that have gone before us here......
1. Yes. You must stay around, so that she may keep a watchful eye on you.
2. No. I'm just reiterating what someone else just said here....that you are neither Plan A NOR Plan B. There is simply NO OTHER option.
(Hey I've learned a lot from fellow posters here!)
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I knew, with every cell of my body I just knew. I used to write about it on here in the early days, I knew 100% that he was coming back.
Did you ever receive phone calls from the "Prisoner" personality? The pathetic one that begged for your forgiveness, etc.?
I did. And it was only after I'd hung up the phone that I put two-and-two together and realized, "OMG - that was the 'Prisoner!'"
As a matter of fact.... yes.
He told me he looks in the mirror every single morning and thinks about me and the life we used to have... and then gets physically ill. Every morning. He said (word for word), “Do you know what it’s like to feel like you’re living someone else’s life?”
Three weeks after he told me that, he married her.
That was almost 2 years ago.
A few weeks ago, in a message, he said he wished I didn’t hate him (I never said that, not once)..., he said he had a “bad relapse” (talking about drinking, he was sober for 20+ years), .... then went on about him having mental illness and I deserve to be treated better, that we need to communicate. I said I had a long day and said “Good night”
He said “Good night. Talk to you soon”
That was about 2 weeks ago. I doubt I’ll hear from him again at least for a few months, maybe even a year or two. That’s how he does it.
Like I said... mine should get the trophy.
It’s been over six years... I no longer have that gut feeling, I have a life of my own.
Mego, I’m sorry this happened to you but you are not alone. There is a whole forum of people here who get it.
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That was about 2 weeks ago. I doubt I’ll hear from him again at least for a few months, maybe even a year or two. That’s how he does it.
OK, I'd wondered why you said that some of your exchanges "were friendly, others not."
Clearly, he's still the one trying to drive the train. All in an effort to keep you hooked......even though you've long since re-married?!
Does that bother you? And, why does your new husband tolerate that?
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GIG.. I dunno. We're divorcing, she says she's not moving home. Our contact is way down, but she still tries to reach out like we're best friends still.
Is she selfishly trying to keep me from moving on? Is she delusional? Is she just hoping I'll hold on enough for one day, which makes me the second, back burner option?
I dunno.. I just know I'll burn myself out worrying and I think I don't care anymore.
I'd turn your situation around a bit gman. I think when there is a baby involved they can never fully "quit" unless they want to be a really $h!tety parent and abandon their new child.
I also think that the baby could keep her a bit stuck almost physically even if she isn't mentally. There's this responsibility there that will never go away.
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That was about 2 weeks ago. I doubt I’ll hear from him again at least for a few months, maybe even a year or two. That’s how he does it.
OK, I'd wondered why you said that some of your exchanges "were friendly, others not."
Clearly, he's still the one trying to drive the train. All in an effort to keep you hooked......even though you've long since re-married?!
Does that bother you? And, why does your new husband tolerate that?
I guess he can try to drive the train all he wants...doesn’t matter to me if I’m not on it.
As for my current husband “tolerating it”,... our relationship is like night and day from what I had with the Leaver. We are very open about everything,... we both have had heartbreaks, we both have been through abuse, we even both have been alienated by our adult daughter (they both have the same name, not a common one either, what are the chances?)... so whenever I have interaction with the Leaver, I include my husband. My husband also interacts with some of his exes, doesn’t bother me bc neither one of us hides it.
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''What was it that finally caused him to sense 'danger'?''
Well let's be real, most of these MLCers have known us for a decade or more. They KNOW us. So you can go out and start humping the first person you see, and sure that will make them jealous...but they KNOW it is a game. They know you are trying to manipulate them.
But what happens after some time when you actually become different. When you change your attitude, when you start to see someone for real...when you make plans for your future without them? They FEEL it. They feel the change in you, that you are no longer obsessing over them, that you no longer care. THAT is when they feel the danger.
''Because I still don't understand how being divorced, with almost zero communication, doesn't qualify as having "slipped away".
Divorced is just a word that describes your legal status really. Sure we can add all kinds of connotations from our religious or cultural beliefs...stigmas...whatever. But what is the difference between 'divorced' and 'married' without religion, culture, attitudes? It is about legal rights...half of what you own, sharing the same property, next of kin...whatever.
So your status of being 'married' made little difference to a MLCer when they went off and left to start up with OW/OM.... why would your status of 'divorce' make any difference to the MLCer if they decide to return?
Your status may make a difference to YOU, but not to them.
And when Barbie said ''Not every man that acts this way is MLC'' is pretty bang on. There are lots of things that might look like MLC at first, but you can only really tell in hindsight. Luckily the things that look like MLC you are told to deal with it in near enough the same fashion. Focus on you, stop reacting, let go....and if they come back, they come back....if not you have already moved on.
As for ''Intuitive knowing'' ….that is a bit different. Intuitive knowing is feeling like they are really sad for some reason, then finding out they have taken a week off work and been locked in MIL's room the whole time refusing to eat. Intuitive knowing is when you see them constantly hiding their phone and know it is because they are texting another woman....Intuitive knowing is when you think ''it has been a while since I heard from him, he is due a touch n go'' then you get a text or whatever that night.. That knowledge comes from 1. predictability of a person's behaviour, 2. behaviour patterns we have seen in the world, and 3. a huge dose of familiarity. Some things you can ''intuitively know''. But them coming back?! That is such a huge thing that you can't know. You may lean toward knowing he will be back this week...then next week think it is impossible. There is no pattern or learned behaviour for ''if they will come back'' in MLC.
Small things, little puzzle pieces that you can guess and later fit together with confirmation...that is ''intuitive knowing''. ''Knowing'' he WILL return is impossible because there are so many decisions and forks in the road between now and then...
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But them coming back?! That is such a huge thing that you can't know. You may lean toward knowing he will be back this week...then next week think it is impossible. There is no pattern or learned behaviour for ''if they will come back'' in MLC.
I took "Intuitive Knowing" as having a gut instinct so strong that you basically "know," and not because I feel that I'm psychic or can read his mind.
It's this feeling that you've already found your lobster, so that's that. Your history together, and possibly children, trumps all else. RCR bullet-points this: "You know you are meant to be together." So I assumed that's what she meant by "Intuitive Knowing".
Perhaps I am wrong, although I suppose it doesn't matter either way.
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It is comforting to have that feeling of "this is going to be ok. He is in a crisis and once that is over he will come back to us". Indeed, many MLCers actually indicate that when they leave..they just need space.
But that can also be crippling...for it can hold us back from making any changes in things.
Example, I was totally alone here in a place where I did not know anyone. Before going on our foreign assignment, our dog had died and where were were going would not have made sense to get a dog. The plan was were were coming back here in 2-3 years and would get a dog then.
I did not get a dog for 17 months after BD because I believed that this was temporary and I would be going back...even when I got a dog, I didn't tell him I had one in case he would think "well she can't come back now...
Friends from back home would want to visit me and I was reluctant to set any dates because I was so sure I would be back overseas and they would lose money for their airfare.
In short, I did not believe him (and he did some things that kept me on the hook because I think he too was very confused about all this).
It's so very hard to let go of that "intuitive knowing" and it is a fear that I had..if I let go, would he sense that as well and that would be the end?
Once I took my focus off what I could not predict anyway, my world opened up, my life became more peaceful and calmer and I allowed myself to make a life without him.
The holding on was not healthy but it couldn't be rushed either.
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Mego - I thought I knew and I totally get why m H did what he did and what triggered it. Seems perfect example of MLC.
Somehow in my gut I knew eventually he would come back - these last few months I am questioning if it is a 'gut feeling' or denial or just refusal to accept reality.
Not so sure anymore, but like you said, does it really matter.
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But them coming back?! That is such a huge thing that you can't know. You may lean toward knowing he will be back this week...then next week think it is impossible. There is no pattern or learned behaviour for ''if they will come back'' in MLC.
I took "Intuitive Knowing" as having a gut instinct so strong that you basically "know," and not because I feel that I'm psychic or can read his mind.
It's this feeling that you've already found your lobster, so that's that. Your history together, and possibly children, trumps all else. RCR bullet-points this: "You know you are meant to be together." So I assumed that's what she meant by "Intuitive Knowing".
Perhaps I am wrong, although I suppose it doesn't matter either way.
So is any of this knowing keeping you attached?
Even if it is one strand of string that keeps you from completely detaching then
that is when it matters.
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Mego - I thought I knew and I totally get why m H did what he did and what triggered it. Seems perfect example of MLC.
Somehow in my gut I knew eventually he would come back - these last few months I am questioning if it is a 'gut feeling' or denial or just refusal to accept reality.
Not so sure anymore, but like you said, does it really matter.
I'm exactly at the same stage.. The gut feeling is keeping me stuck so I'm at the point where I actually want to ignore it so I can move forward... I don't want to be in limbo anymore.
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Or, logically, if you want to trust your 'knowing' feeling, you could just get on with your own life regardless as it will happen whether you wait, prod or shout....and whether you detach and heal, or don't...jmo.
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Thanx T & OP & One Day
But I'm afraid it isn't that easy. We can't just turn our feelings on/off, like a lamp.
So it's frightening that MLC enables them to do JUST THAT.......!
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I know that it is nothing we do or say that makes them finally quit.
As to whether divorce and no more personal/financial contact makes them feel we are slipping away? I have no idea - I think that while they are still in throes of the crisis, they couldn't care less. After eight plus years of this, this is what I see.
I will always have contact with the father of my children because that is who he is. :P
MLC is something that was engendered in them before we met them. It has nothing to do with our marriage.
I will stand until death do us part, however, I cannot claim to being sure he will come back home. In my mind, these are two different things. I will do my part in our marriage and what he does, is what he does.
That is why we need to take responsibility for ourselves and our children, if they so need us. My life is my responsibility.
His life and decisions are his.
I don't pass judgement on his behavior, that is not my role. My behavior is my concern, God is my judge.
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Say I get sacked by the company I worked for 20 years.
I have this gut feeling that they will hire me back. No reason, I just feel that way. Intuition. Despite the severance payout and all the paper work that declares me legally dismissed from the company.
In the mean time, I will not look for another job, retrain, or acquire additional skills to better my chances in the job market. Why would I do all that work when my gut tells me I will get my old job back?
Needless to say, that attitude is most unwise.
When LBS gets divorced, she has been sacked as a wife. Retrain as a single person. In fact, all LBS should be doing it, regardless of their marital status, if I may say so.
Also, proverbial spanner in the works is that the Leaver does not share the same ‘gut feeling’ as LBS. That’s a real bummer when reconciliation takes 2 people.
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But I'm afraid it isn't that easy. We can't just turn our feelings on/off, like a lamp.
No you can't.
So all you can do is make small changes , one day at a time and point in the right direction.
If you are steering a huge ship, it can not turn on a dime and head in the opposite direction.
You just slowly turn until you are pointed in the opposite way.
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Hello,
Great analogy:
Say I get sacked by the company I worked for 20 years.
I have this gut feeling that they will hire me back. No reason, I just feel that way. Intuition. Despite the severance payout and all the paper work that declares me legally dismissed from the company.
In the mean time, I will not look for another job, retrain, or acquire additional skills to better my chances in the job market. Why would I do all that work when my gut tells me I will get my old job back?
And may I add, ignore all other aspects of my life so I can sit by the phone for hours waiting for my former company to call and then sending angry emails to my former boss for not calling me back to work.
When LBS gets divorced, she has been sacked as a wife. Retrain as a single person. In fact, all LBS should be doing it, regardless of their marital status, if I may say so.
Can't argue with that at all.
No you can't.
So all you can do is make small changes , one day at a time and point in the right direction.
If you are steering a huge ship, it can not turn on a dime and head in the opposite direction.
You just slowly turn until you are pointed in the opposite way.
OP, as usual, you are right on point.
This concludes one of the easiest posts I've had thanks to the previous posts that I just stole from.
In the words of the lady from Poltergeist, "This thread is cleansed."
Have an awesome day!
Ready
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When LBS gets divorced, she has been sacked as a wife. Retrain as a single person. In fact, all LBS should be doing it, regardless of their marital status, if I may say so.
Just perfect
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Say I get sacked by the company I worked for 20 years.
I have this gut feeling that they will hire me back. No reason, I just feel that way. Intuition. Despite the severance payout and all the paper work that declares me legally dismissed from the company.
I respectfully disagree with your analogy. Apples, and oranges.
Because companies are STERILE. No emotions, no feelings, no nothing. JUST BUSINESS! So once you're let go, you're gone. There are no second thoughts, and no turning back.
Marriage is just the opposite.....all about people, very strong emotions. And per RCR, these people are only "lost .....not gone."
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If you used your imagination you could understand what so many people are trying to tell you in a variety of ways.
People who have all been through what you are going through and have learned to live again.
My feeling mego is you do not want to hear the reality of the danger you face if you don’t start preparing for a life on your own.
It is all your own choice.
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My feeling mego is you do not want to hear the reality of the danger you face if you don’t start preparing for a life on your own.
I am in the same boat as everyone else - we ALL wonder if we will have enough to live on comfortably. I get alimony for the next five years. Then I got $300k in retirement, which has already grown to $335k, and will only continue until I'm 59 1/2. My lawyer said I was given a "good offer", and more than I would have won in court.
So why then does everyone feel that I'm so destitute?
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I would talk to a financial advisor to make sure that 300 k will be sufficient when your alimony runs out.
At 4 % interest per year IF you are fortunate enough to make that, your asset comes to $12,000 per year in income. That would be $1000 per month.
Investments, especially those that might make a decent rate of return are also vulnerable to market conditions.
Just my little bit of knowledge concerning investments.
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I just read a somewhat old obituary. I don't know any of the people mentioned in the obituary. I just came across it while searching for something about a business formerly owned by a relative of the deceased.
It mentioned how the deceased had just remarried his wife for the THIRD time 4 months before he died. That he had spent the past 2 years having a reunion with his family. He had been in the military for a long time and that kept him away from his family too but it also made mention about how although he was away from his family a lot, he thought of them often. He and his wife had 3 sons.
He was 62 when he died. One has to wonder whether there was an MLC involved in this story.
Well you have stated you pay $3k a month on your mortgage. Presumably you got the house too. Not sure how you plan to pay that mortgage when you stop getting alimony until you can start drawing from that retirement account. Not to mention homes have maintenance expenses and sometimes property taxes depending on where you live. Presumably you also will be able to draw from your H's social security but what if he decides not to take it until he is 70? And as I understand, he is younger than you. So you have some glaring gaps in there where your income could be quite small to non-existent. Plus you have health care expenses. Plus I assume you have not worked enough to get your own social security payouts from your own work.
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I just have to throw my experience into the mix here for what it’s worth.
As my h is currently deep in mlc LaLa land and is, indeed, the total opposite of the man I married I have to do things for me alone. My Mother was herself an LBS long before MLC was talked about. I learned from her that to try to talk any kind of sense or cajole or argue is pointless. She suffered my Father’s affair with the gold medalist of vile ow and eventually, stepped back, let go and met someone else. This was my Father’s awakening! He begged my Mother several times to take him back even enlisting the help of my Nan, ( my mother’s mom) to plead his case. Unfortunately my Mother had given up and was not interested at all.
From talking to my Father before his death he told me he lived every day since with the regret of what he did, that he never stopped loving my Mother just didn’t think he did at the time of MLC.
He so badly wanted to reconcile with my Mother but by then it was too late. He thought she would hang around waiting forever or until he decided he wanted back in.
For my part I am getting a life, it still hurts 13 months after my h left to live his “wonderful “ life with ow but, again from experience of my Father’s ow I know this is not great and he looks like crap and I look so much better and am so much stronger.
I leave him to himself whilst I use this time for me.
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Can we just live in the NOW? I can't worry about 20+ years from now......I am just trying to make it through until TOMORROW!
And considering my XH sells retirement plans for a living, I don't see him leaving me high and dry. He is an alpha male so just LOOOOVES to provide anything he can. It's all he's ever known (his mom stayed home, too!)
RCR wrote they're just LOST, not GONE, and I believe everything she writes. Personal phone calls from the Prisoner also confirmed this.
So.....I just don't worry. Life is too damn short!
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He so badly wanted to reconcile with my Mother but by then it was too late. He thought she would hang around waiting forever or until he decided he wanted back in.
Hi Shock
Your story is all-too-familiar. It seems like everyone's story! Perhaps that's why I don't panic about my future too much (?!)
Because once I learned what was REALLY going on with him, I realized the decision was mine to make.
And then, yet another month was ripped off the calendar.
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I am living in the now. My house is still not worth what it was purchased for in 2007. This week I had to buy a new lawnmower AND the snow storm we had greatly damaged a big tree which will be another big expense to have it cut down and taken away.
And considering my XH sells retirement plans for a living, I don't see him leaving me high and dry. He is an alpha male so just LOOOOVES to provide anything he can. It's all he's ever known (his mom stayed home, too!)
My husband who has more $$ then he could ever need divorced me last year causing me to loose my health insurance. Costs me $1174 per month to have medical care and HE DID NOT CARE. Told me he was under no obligation to keep me on his health insurance plan. Yet when I was reluctant to leave Canada and move for his job to the US in 2003 because of the lack of adequate health insurance, he assured me I never had to worry about that as he worked for a large company and I'd always be covered.
They lie.
But maybe yours is different, who knows?
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I am living in the now.
No sorry that comment was actually directed at GIG, who seems very concerned about my financial future (?!)
Obviously I'm not thrilled with XH being gone, but it is what it is and I refuse to spend my life fretting about ANYTHING - especially $.
I just know this man all too well.....
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I have a relative who was doing well when he was your H's age. He was married, owned a house half a block from the beach in Southern California, his own private airplane, worked in real estate....
Now fast forward 35 years or so. He's divorced and alone, living in an apartment whose rent consumes almost his entire social security check. He gets his food from food banks or simply goes hungry. He has all sorts of medical issues. He has my mother mail him a $20 phone card every once in a while so he has some way to make calls. He gets his internet at the public library. His phone has been off for more than a week now and we have no idea why or what happened to him and no other way to contact him to find out. He takes the public bus and obviously lives in a pretty seedy area as he was pickpocketed on said bus a few months ago.
What happens if or when your H buys his dream winery and the grapes all freeze one year and he goes bankrupt? His former insurance job isn't going to help him, let alone you, assuming he chooses to help you at all. If he chooses to marry his girlfriend who works and shares in earning a living with him and they have a kid or two, I doubt he is going to be shelling out for the ex-wife who chooses to sit on her ass and waits for a handout and a return from him. Do you really think he is going to be willing to shell out for the possible personal care you will need for disability caused by MS? If you had been working all these years you would at least be eligible for disability from social security now. And anyway, your H could drop dead any time even he chooses to help you.
You can live in the here and now but you won't be living very well at all in the future if that is your attitude. But then maybe you do realize how screwed you are and prefer not to deal with it.
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I have to just say this. Outside of this forum, I have never heard of a case of divorce leading to a return among anyone I know personally, let alone regrets about the divorce having happened at all by the person who chose to get the divorce. It's not the norm.
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I doubt he is going to be shelling out for the ex-wife who chooses to sit on her ass and waits for a handout and a return from him. Do you really think he is going to be willing to shell out for the possible personal care you will need for disability caused by MS? If you had been working all these years you would at least be eligible for disability from social security now.
I am a SAHM. I don't "sit on my ass" at all - I get up and make S16 his breakfast & lunch in the morning & then hang out with him - then, I'm here to greet him off of the bus - then, chauffeur him to wherever he needs to go - then, pick him up. He doesn't have his license yet, and I'm committed to him......but, thanx for your concern.
Having said all of that......jealous, much?!
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Sorry Mego, but I need to ask. If you have all the answers and the rest of us are always wrong, why do you keep asking questions? People spend time trying to help you but you dismiss everything everyone says.. I really don't understand what do you get out of HS..
Personally, despite the hope he will one day come back, I made it my job to make sure I can get by no matter what happens. I wanted to be safe and maybe also a bit out of pride.. If I was my H and I saw me (his wife) simply taking all the abuse and cr$p but still patiently waiting for him to "wake up" I would have no respect for my wife anymore and definitely I would not go back to that..
Also I want to make something clear to him.. I don't NEED him, I don't need his paycheck or his help around the house. I want him in my life because I chose him as my life companion.. I'm learning to do what I need to do so I can make sure I can look after myself. He doesn't have my back anymore, he doesn't care about me right now and he might never care again.. I wish you could see that the same could happen to you.. And I hope that whenever you see it, it's not too late Mego.. Right now your "knowing" is giving you a false sense of security and the longer this goes on, the more time you are wasting.. Time you could be using to do something useful for you.
I wish you well Mego, you will need all the luck you can get if you continue down this path.
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Sorry Mego, but I need to ask. If you have all the answers and the rest of us are always wrong, why do you keep asking questions? People spend time trying to help you but you dismiss everything everyone says.. I really don't understand what do you get out of HS.
Never once have I said, or implied, that I "have all the answers." Nor do I "dismiss" anything.
We all have our opinions, and I have mine. I believe one thing, and you believe another.
Why isn't that OK on HS? I'm playing devil's advocate, if nothing else....
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Mego,
There is a newish book out for financial planning for those with chronic illness Estate Planning: For People with a Chronic Condition or Disability, Attorney Martin M. Shenkman and there is the article: https://mymsaa.org/publications/motivator/winter-spring19/cover-story/.
Nursing home care costs about 100k per year and that does not include drug costs or anything personal. 300k will not take you far unfortunately if the $hit hits the fan. You may want to fund your own special needs trust - if you end up on SSI and medicaid, the govt. cannot claw back funds from the special needs trust. You can draw on your ex´s social security once he hits full retirement age- you do NOT need to wait until he hits 70 if he chooses to wait. If he dies, you are eligible for 100% of his benefit. You can remarry after 50 and still draw on his earnings IF you are disabled. If not, you can remarry after 60.
You cannot claw back time. Relying on your gut feeling is like buying a lottery ticket knowing you are going to win. Be the ant, not the grasshopper.
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Thanx FTT
You are very knowledgeable. Perhaps you are a lawyer?
Re: the re-marriage stuff......well, that will never happen. Because I am one and done.....something that I am prepared to take to my grave, should it ever come to that.
Can you tell that I am very set in my ways?!
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Wow, well said one day.
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I am a SAHM. I don't "sit on my ass" at all - I get up and make S16 his breakfast & lunch in the morning & then hang out with him - then, I'm here to greet him off of the bus - then, chauffeur him to wherever he needs to go - then, pick him up. He doesn't have his license yet, and I'm committed to him......but, thanx for your concern.
Having said all of that......jealous, much?!
And when he graduates and maybe goes away to college in 2 years? Then what?
Your whole identity is tied up in being a wife and a mother. That's fine, but what happens when there's no husband and no son around?
It's not just a matter of supporting yourself, it's a matter of the fact that you seem to have no other interests or activities.
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Thanx FTT
You are very knowledgeable. Perhaps you are a lawyer?
Re: the re-marriage stuff......well, that will never happen. Because I am one and done.....something that I am prepared to take to my grave, should it ever come to that.
Can you tell that I am very set in my ways?!
Mego, being set in your ways does not and should not mean that you set off at a run towards a cliff and refuse to consider changing ditestion. That's not being "set in your ways." That's commuting self-harm or suicide.
Have you read the following Blog Post from RCR? .
https://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/ (https://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/)
She says herself explicitly that many Mid-Lifers do NOT return...
However, a couple of general observarions:
1) This thread is a discussion thread about what it takes for a Mid-Lifer to get their head out of their...... Fog..... This is NOT a thread for Mego's story. She has one of those already.
2) To imply that a Stay At Home Mom doesn't work as was done above is the epitome of arrogant hubris, especially when one has no kid of their own,
3) Ther is NO specific "thing" that causes a Mid-Lifer to suddenly realize that the LBS has dropped the rope and moved in. For some, it may be that the LBS has a new partner, for others that the LBS is living a happy life, for yet others, they will NEVER wake up. My FIL(RIP) was one of the later. He had his "awakening" if you will while he was in a semi-concious coma from heart failure, being forced to hear his children tell him how he had hurt them in his MLC but that they forgave him. He couldn't run away, he couldn't monster back, he couldn't reply at all. 2 hours later, he died.
The bitter truth is that, despite your belief and certainty, not all will come back. If you read the blog article, from the evidence in the small sample here, few do but that can also be that, after a period of time, the LBS has moved on and stops posting so an attempted return won't be documented.
It is our life to lead and we only get one shot at it.
BUT let's please return the the opic of the thread which is NOT Mego's story but rather her question on what causes the Mid-Lifer to wake up....
Thanks,
UM
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I think Acorn summed it up best on her thread reflecting on her observation of her own h.
Logically...if it IS a crisis, and one accepts that a crisis is in and about them and not about the marriage other than as part of the context....then what ends it will equally be about them and internal to them. I think Acorn's sense was that her h just no longer felt ok with the person he had become so he started making changes to become someone he felt better about. In his case it seems that included his relationship with his family and with his faith. But still all about them and still probably quite a lot of self-centredness and not much empathy even as they start to figure it out.
So my answer is that, if they do 'quit', it will be because they can no longer feel ok about who they are. Nothing to do with the LBS at all. Or other people or things or events other than as context again. And of course some may never reach that point. And some may decide that the new improved them does not include their family or any part of their past life at all.
What we do know though is that a) it takes years and b) it is not possible to predict the outcome.
Meanwhile the LBS and the family needs to find a way to live a life they did not plan and imho reduce the damage from crazy nasty where they can. Different situations require different tactics. Standing is not waiting nor is it trying to control the mysteries of someone else's inner workings. Standing imho is living despite MLC and keeping a kind calm sane door open should you wish to do that.
Going back to the original question...circumstances are different via a vis divorce, contact, remarriage etc...but what seems true for many LBS is that honestly our spouses ARE done with the marriage. Some may waver, some may try to live two lives for a while, some may just vanish. But there is no normal healthy functional marriage after BD. Which is painful to accept but necessary I think. They have already QUIT us....even with a live in imho, the marriage as it was no longer exists bc they remove themselves from being a normal spouse....what remains to be seen is if some want to reconnect at some point.....and the LBS gets to decide then if what is on offer is worthwhile to them or not depending on what kind of person shows up then.
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Treasur,
Great summary and worth being a permanent post for newbies- might save a lot of emotional energy and spare excess pain.
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Great post, T, and thank you for it. You said what needed to be said without it feeling hurtful to the LBS.
It is very hard for us to accept that our spouse's MLC is not about us and the marriage because that is where they hit us. I'm still not able to detach myself from this thought. However, the way you put it, re-enforces the concept that the MLC is having a personal crisis. His identity crisis destroyed the marriage. Until he begins to resolve his personal crisis, he will not consider the marriage in any way. The marriage is a side effect of his crisis.
Also good to be reminded, although we hate it, that there is no guarantee of them returning, and therefore we must force ourselves to make a life for ourselves without them in it.
And for any newbies reading, becoming financially independent, whether your spouse is currently supporting or you not, is something you do for you. You would not rely on your parent to support you once you become an adult, and you certainly shouldn't depend on a child-spouse going through a crisis. Even if you think they would never leave you penniless, I bet you also believed they would never cheat on you, too. At least, I did.
Making your own money helps you feel in control of your life. Allows you to make decisions for your future. Takes you into the real world to mix with new people and have new conversations. Gives you a reason to get up in the morning. Allows you to take a step away from your MLCer, and might ultimately help them see you in a different light.
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2) To imply that a Stay At Home Mom doesn't work as was done above is the epitome of arrogant hubris, especially when one has no kid of their own,
UM-I am not saying that a SAHM doesn't work. But when someone chooses to leave their spouse for someone who is the opposite of the person they are leaving, there's something going on there. Now it can be leaving a working wife for a trophy, or vice versa, or a fertile wife for an infertile one, or vice versa. It doesn't matter. If we are talking about what makes them come back, we have to consider why they left as well. And in the case of someone whose only child is 16, being a SAHM may be irrelevant to the possible return of the MLCer. Maybe he doesn't want a wife at home anymore, maybe he wants a do-over and the OW is going to quit work, stay home and have more kids. Also, once the kid has left the nest, what is there to draw him back? At that point, one is no longer a SAHM. And in a case where there's no longer a need for a father figure in the house, then what's in it for the LBS whose whole identity is wrapped up in being a SAHM?
As for me not having a kid of my own, well you can jump to all the wrong conclusions you want, but what I was trying to show here anyway was not my perspective, but the perspective of a man who has chosen to be with an active working woman when his ex is the opposite and why he may or may not return.
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What's going on there is a MLC.
MLCer's leave their spouse, or divorce them, for someone totally opposite all the time.
People in crisis do that, it has nothing to do with the spouse. Usually it is a younger person they find because it matches their age, in their head.
You didn't mean to blame the spouse, did you?
Ugh, again we are off topic. :-\
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I do not "blame" the lbs because that implies the lbs did something wrong. But are the circumstances of our marriage part of what they are running from? In many cases yes. They may have a fantasy the other person will be the opposite of their spouse and that may or may not be the case. But they want a different life. Note I said life not wife. But we were part of their life. So if they are to return is it because we stayed the same, became a better person...or does our response drive them away for good? It makes people feel better to tell them this is not their fault yet our circumstances which may have been out of our control still play a role in what happened
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Well I think, from most stories I've read, most of the marriages were pretty solid until the crisis hit.
Then they rewrite history and come up with "nothing was good for years."
Can there be improvements in the marriage, of course no marriage is perfect, but the MLCer paints it as all bad.
Some have left for the stupidest reasons. The dog is too fat, you did xyz 15 years ago, etc..
They are running away from their issues, not the marriage or the spouse.
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It makes people feel better to tell them this is not their fault yet our circumstances which may have been out of our control still play a role in what happened
Once again - blaming the spouse!
I will just defer to the words of the great RCR here:
"Superficially it may not make sense; she's nothing like you. But when you delve deeper it would make less sense for him to cheat with another you - he's got the real you. MLCers don't seek out alienators who are younger or more beautiful. He seeks someone convenient. There is nothing special about her other than she gives him her attention and admiration - those are not to be underestimated. She fulfills his need for validation."
BOOM!
Nowhere there did she mention looking for an "active, working woman." However, she did mention convenience.
It isn't lost on me that XH's OW lives smack-dab in the center of his hometown, within walking distance of everything. How's that for convenient?
Also, THIS......
"A woman similar to you would remind him of his guilt, which he is trying to escape. We subconsciously seek out partners who fulfill our missing pieces and needs. In his opposite state, he needs a person different than you to do this."
Another BOOM!
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And when they choose a new partner who in some way recreates the dynamics of their issues, I don't think that they are running from those issues but throwing themselves headlong into them. I think if we are dealing with an mlcer in some cases they are running from us because we simply are irrelevant to the issues in their heads. We become noisy static to them
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Thanks for the link, UM. It was a good read with lots of great reminders that we need to build our own new life.
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I just wanted to add that perhaps my view is different because I didn't get a breaded chicken excuse (which is an easy problem to solve) but a mix of genuine serious concerns l consider legitimate (even though we differed on how to solve them) and clear Foo issues I know I can't solve anyway. The why's are not an issue of dispute. it is how he has dealt with them. I
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Mego… you do a great deal of "cherry picking"! All of the points you have highlighted are valid but they are not THE ONLY points worth considering. The real truth.... IT DOESN'T MATTER who, what... the other person is or isn't... he/she ISN'T your problem. YOU are the only person you can fix, help...wasting time, picking through RCR's comments/opinion, finding the ONE that best suits you, will not help you find your way through this.
You continuously choose to believe that these people who are "at least" responding on your thread, are doing so to deliberately belittle or demean you. That is not the case! You are two years or more out from your bomb drop and from what I can tell, you are "further behind" then you were then.
Sadly, you will waste your time lashing out at me and all the rest of these kind people.... when your time could be better spent WORKING ON FIXING YOURSELF.
As for all you lovely people who are responding to Mego's continued beligerence and defensive responses.... leave her to it! I am sure your words and advise would be much better received and appreciated by others on this forum.
Hugs Stayed
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It is a folly to invest out time and mind space to conjecture what will make them think/do this way and that. They will think/do as they please, and the same applies to LBS.
It is a folly to extrapolate the future of M based on RCR’s, Stayed’s, etc. Their stories are not a TV drama script our real lives follow.
It is wise to see how much mirror work RCR and Stayed had done. That is one safe aspect to extrapolate onto our lives - If one focuses on her self and grow, we will be fine and live meaningfully regardless of M outcome.
It is my folly to invest my time and energy on this thread as I should have learned from my experience. A moment of reflection for myself. ‘Fixer’ tendency is resurfacing, maybe.
Added later: Just read Stayed’s comment after posting mine. Agree, leave her to it.
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Thanks Stayed, I agree.
I do see a positive in answering mego concerning the need to focus on herself, protect her finances, obtain education/training to be able to take care of herself and that is for other LBSers, especially those who are so totally shocked about what has happened to their lives that they don't know which direction to turn to.
So many long time LBSers are expressing to the newer members...please take care of yourselves!!!! Through the pain and the sadness, reach down and find that small energy that will propell you forward in life. The years pass quickly and opportunities to insure that you will be able to live a decent life are necessary to focus on.....I have seen many people here do great things with their lives and we are on the whole, an amazing bunch of men and women who rise above this.
So take control over your life!!!!
Find your "passion", love your family, get a pet, do some volunteer work and explore the beauty in this world. Your spouse cannot be the only reason for you to be living.
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Man oh man two pages worth..where to start.
''I just know this man all too well...''
I think anyone who is on this MLC forum still saying this needs to check their ego. We know who they WERE. We have no idea who they ARE. If you knew this man to well you would know about his MLC, his taking you to court, his assaults...whatever. Right now all of us are John Snow. We know nothing. We are all casual observers in this process. The best we can hope for is to seek guidance from those who walked the path before us.
I too am a SAHM, with three small children all under the age of 9. I spend all day cooking, cleaning, picking the youngest up from Nursery...I run the house hold, pay the bills, and buy the groceries. Then every night when the kids go to bed I spend my evenings studying to make sure that me and my kids have a future, irrelevant to Beast. I would NEVER EVER put my financial future in his hands again. Bad enough we made that mistake once, why on Earth would you do it again? This world (and your MLCer) owe you nothing financially. You need to fight and support yourself or you will get left behind.
''I am playing devil's advocate, if nothing else..''
Some may call it that. Some call it stirring the pot for drama. Take your pick.
For what it is worth I do not think it is the spouses FAULT that the MLCer leaves or runs off...but I do see Goner's point that our CIRCUMSTANCES do play a part. I know for certain that part of the draw for Beast is the lack of responsibility. If he runs off to be with OW he no longer has to be a full time father, make sure the bills are payed, the food is on the table, the kids are well behaved....he doesn't have to deal with sick kids or crying or anything that comes with family life. By running away it wasn't just dropping me as a wife, it was dropping his responsibility to be a grown up. Now he can be ''free'' and ''single'' and see his kids when it suits him. That absolutely plays a part. Is that mine or the kids fault? No. It is a problem within himself that HE can't handle his responsibility as a husband and father. So circumstances can play a part in triggering/fuelling the MLC, without it being the spouse's fault.
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Exactly Acorn and XYZ! Surviving this nightmare is probably one of my top 10 achievements, my children being #1. I really like the person I became. I'll always have more to do on myself but I'm pretty tickled with the person who looks back at me from the mirror each morning. I'm inspired by the men and women I've met due to this situation. They are proof that truly GOOD people exist.
The one thing you have always expressed so well XYZ is the NEED to protect yourself, financially physically and mentally. Sadly Mego chooses to believe that we are being mean and that our intentions are not sincere and honourable. When a person adopts that mindset we need to do as Acorn said, withdraw our "fixer" instincts and take them to a person who wants to help themselves.
Many of you are just too giving (I know who ever would have thought that would be a"flaw"). When Mego truly wants to help herself, she'll seek us out. Until then, save your energy for where it will do the most good.
Hugs
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Wow, Mortesbride... WOW! Beautifully said, Evert single word!
Hugs Stayed
Forgot, I wanted to respond to this quote of yours Mortesbride....
''I just know this man all too well...'' I think anyone who is on this MLC forum still saying this needs to check their ego. We know who they WERE. We have no idea who they ARE. If you knew this man to well you would know about his MLC, his taking you to court, his assaults...whatever.
This always drove me nuts when LBS's would say this...for me, that is what bothered me the most.... I DIDN'T RECOGNIZE this man who had been my husband for almost 30 years.... AT ALL!!! I couldn't believe that this was the man I had been married to for 28 years!! So good to see somebody else admitting to this.
Again... well said... hugs
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Ditto what you said, Stayed. I did not know who this changed person was. It was just someone wearing H’s skin suit.
If a Leaver has clearly shown that he is more or less the same as before and can be relied on to do the right thing, MLCer, he is not.
I do see a positive in answering mego concerning the need to focus on herself, protect her finances, obtain education/training to be able to take care of herself and that is for other LBSers, especially those who are so totally shocked about what has happened to their lives that they don't know which direction to turn to.
How many times have the good people on HS talked about the same things?
10 times? 50? 100?
The result seems to be the same every time - Back to square 1.
Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Maybe, just maybe, withdrawing all attention, either positive or negative, is what the doctor ordered?
My last post on this thread. No more attention to it, for what it’s worth.
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We know who they WERE. We have no idea who they ARE. If you knew this man to well you would know about his MLC, his taking you to court, his assaults...whatever. Right now all of us are John Snow. We know nothing. We are all casual observers in this process. The best we can hope for is to seek guidance from those who walked the path before us.
Right.....except the person we knew IS the person that they are. This person is a stranger. The thing inhabiting his body right now is not XH. I totally concur with that assessment.
But I also try to think in the "present tense", that is, real H is lost in an abyss. However, "what is lost, can be found." -RCR
Onward, and upwards.
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I agree with everyone. I can't see the value to your life by waiting for your husband to return. It's time to focus on YOU and your kids, if you have them.
I worked so hard before BD. After BD, I took a step back to re-evaluate and take stock of what I was doing. I was burning myself into the ground.
I reduced my hours, but I still have my career, but I now have time for my kids too. I got a dog. Always wanted one. My work/life balance is so much better. I am calmer. I am not so stressed.
In return, it has helped my mental health. I no longer worry about my ex returning. I ended the drama by only using text message to discuss the kids. Hand over of the kids is quick and we're polite. I removed myself from it all.
I thought I knew my ex so well too, but I did learn pretty early on that my ex was no longer someone I knew. He was gone. My boss once asked me a question about my ex and my reply was 'I don't know. I don't know him anymore'. She replied 'Yeah, you're right. He turned into a different person'.
What makes them finally quit depends on many things. I think my ex has wanted to come home in the past, but I'm not here to be messed around. I think he'd still try, but like I say, I'm not here to be messed around and wait for him to decide.
It's time to put the big girl pants on and address the situation and sort out your actions, rather than focus on your ex/husband's actions.
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Sadly Mego chooses to believe that we are being mean and that our intentions are not sincere and honourable.
This is factually incorrect.
There are only a small handful of posters that are outright antagonistic/mean. I would say taking the time to concoct a list of my negative attributes is quite mean. (And, I think the fact that "has MS" was listed as one of those only speaks for itself!) Burn-book, anyone?
Everyone else is fine, and I listen to everything.
It's just that I started this thread hoping to understand what your H meant when he said he feared that you were "slipping away."
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I thought I knew my ex so well too, but I did learn pretty early on that my ex was no longer someone I knew. He was gone.
Correction: your MLC'er is "lost, not gone." - RCR
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I thought I knew my ex so well too, but I did learn pretty early on that my ex was no longer someone I knew. He was gone.
Correction: your MLC'er is "lost, not gone." - RCR
Mego that's what Stayed was talking about when she referred to cherry picking.... And Personal interpretation to make the comment fit.
The Mid-Lifer may be "Lost" and not "Gone" but the fact remains that, when they find themselves, just as when the LBS comes to the other side of our journey, we are NOT the same person we were.
"One doesn't make the trip to hell and back without acquiring transferable skills."
However, as you noted, this thread was to answer a specific question, not to start a new story thread.
Can we PLEASE get back on topic before someone has to close this thread and move it?
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Well what makes them finally quit? Hmmm
For me I had to find out whatever it was that scared the ever lovin' daylight right out of the ex. And it wasn't losing me.
Which amidst the drama, I figured out it was the authorities.
.
It was the only way I got any peace or time to think or heal. I had to threaten to have him arrested.
Pretty bad when you have to go that far.
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However, as you noted, this thread was to answer a specific question, not to start a new story thread.
Hmmm, who better to ask than Stayed herself?
Stayed, could you tell me what it was that made your H feel as though you were "slipping away?"
This thread was established seeking that answer, only to devolve into something else entirely.....
Thank you in advance xxxx
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I would say taking the time to concoct a list of my negative attributes is quite mean.
It was a summary of facts you have posted about yourself.
If someone holds up a mirror to you and you consider what you see as negative, then that is your own personal assessment of what you see. The person holding the mirror did not create those attributes in you.
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It was a summary of facts you have posted about yourself.
See: Book, Burn
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May I remind you that you posted about something "bad" that happened over 20+ years ago, along with the bullet-pointed "has MS". "Is bipolar". "Is an alcoholic." Were you writing all of those things out of ADMIRATION?!
Please do not continue to insult my intelligence.....or that of anyone else's here......
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I think it would be better if we stop with all the personal attacks and get back to the Discussion topic.
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No problem Thunder
Hopefully Stayed can/will interject to answer this question :)
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They are no longer the same person they were, nor should we be the same person we were. You can't be and deal with them and the consequences of their actions.
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Going back to the original question...circumstances are different via a vis divorce, contact, remarriage etc...but what seems true for many LBS is that honestly our spouses ARE done with the marriage. Some may waver, some may try to live two lives for a while, some may just vanish. But there is no normal healthy functional marriage after BD. Which is painful to accept but necessary I think. They have already QUIT us....even with a live in imho, the marriage as it was no longer exists bc they remove themselves from being a normal spouse....what remains to be seen is if some want to reconnect at some point.....and the LBS gets to decide then if what is on offer is worthwhile to them or not depending on what kind of person shows up then.
Thank you. I constantly see people going on about this daily, arrogantly too IMO. That somehow they're in a better position because they're still married. No, you aren't. I lived with my husband, obviously, pre-BD and after BD, and for a time after divorce and his behavior was exactly the same. They do not see themselves as married anymore. In fact, I can't remember who said it but someone here even mentioned her husband or xh feeling like he was cheating on the OW for spending time with her. I get it. It makes you feel like there's still some hope. I regret filing for divorce sometimes too. If I were still married this wouldn't be happening to me or it wouldn't be so bad, but it really would! The marriage made no difference in lunatic's behavior. He still texted OW at the kitchen table and even while I lay in bed next to him! And we were married at the time. People gotta stop deluding themselves with this "at least we're still married" mindset. From what I've read, some of them wait five or ten plus years to divorce, but there's a definite possibility that you will be in that situation at some point.
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Everything matters. Where they live. And what they do. Every action has consequences. It doesn't mean the results are predictable nor that one can manipulate the results but everything they do and we do affects what comes next. Clearly divorce is not a red line for you but for some it is and therefore it makes a huge difference.
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WHY DOES ANYONE KEEP TRYING?
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My xh would've "quit" if ow was no longer an option. I know this BC it happened once before while we were separated for a few months. I didn't know until we got back together (him actually crying on his hands and knees) that there was an ow. I found out when we got back together that she had a boyfriend at the time and she dumped my xh.
So had ow not continued to let herself be an option I believe he would've taken a short break and then came back to our family. my xh is to blame but with that being said, he would not have joined dating sites and chased any women. He didn't have that in him. He always had self esteem issues and fear of rejection.
Now having said that, I took myself out of the equation. I wasn't playing that game. Ow "won" in her mind but what she doesn't know is I wasn't playing.
Mego, not bashing you here ... I am speaking from experience. The people on hs who told me to get my finances in order early and work on myself were lifesavers. My xh walked out with zero debt, his car and his PlayStation THAT.IS.IT. I am sure ow thought she was getting a man who had lots to offer financially BC he looked like a very well put together man. Sad for her he loved his family so much (and felt terribly guilty) that he walked away from it all. Joke was on her but maybe she didn't care in the end BC she still moved in with him.
Anyway don't take RCR articles as literally as you are. Read them all. Don't cherry pick. Work on yourself. Be strong. You h is bound to notice one day and you will become an even more attractive force :)
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WHY DOES ANYONE KEEP TRYING?
Because it is a discussion thread. The discussion is not about one person. It is about a general topic. It's not trying. It's discussion for the greater good and it really doesn't matter whether one specific person heeds what is written here or not. Someone else who doesn't even post but just reads may benefit from it. One can actually learn a lot from observing others' mistakes and reflecting on one's own situation.
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Because it is a discussion thread. The discussion is not about one person. It is about a general topic.
Well this I agree with. It should be a discussion on the topic asked. Not the person.
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What makes them feel as if you are slipping away? To me, that would be an individual answer for an MLCer. Some might care if you are "slipping away". Some might not, as it could alleviate their guilt. Some may wake up one morning and think "Wait. How did I get here?" Some may never do that.
It could be getting the divorce, or a new bf/gf, or moving away, or getting a job where you can support yourself and no longer "need" him, or stopping contact or selling the house or...or...or who knows.
If anyone had the true and definitive answer, many of us would not even be here because we'd have used it and be on the path to reconciliation if we wanted it.
What makes ME feel like I am slipping away? Detachment. Taking care of me. Making sure I will be ok on my own. Knowing that whatever life sends me, I'm going take it on, deal with it like an adult, not blame someone else for what i can't handle, be the best person I want to be, and not walk over anyone to get where I need to go.
Whether XH thinks I'm "slipping away" is a moot point. I'm not living my life for him. He gets to live his own life and reap what he has sown. Lost or not, MY H is gone at this time. He may or may not ever turn up, or someone else may appear in his skin suit. If the skin suit turns up at my door, I'll figure out if I like him then. If someone else turns up first, I'm ok with that, too. And I'm ok alone.
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Perhaps the key is not about the LBS slipping away, but more about their ability to 'feel'? And indeed if they care bc they start valuing anything about you or their old self/life again. Many seem to have us mentally stuck in aspic in some way in their head, on a shelf, so I imagine they don't actually notice our absence until or unless it starts to matter to them. Some might then be a bit surprised that we are not (hopefully) and that life has moved on without them, kids are older, houses are different etc. Again, nothing about what we do...all about what is in their head.
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That's a very good point, Treasur. It's really more about feeling vs. not feeling than it is about whether they have feelings for the LBS vs. the OP. Because an MLCer is incapable of feeling for anyone.
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Yes I do think it's where their at in their crisis. In the beginning they could care less if you "slip away" they probably want you to, but it may be when they are starting to come out of it they could panic that you left them alone and maybe they are losing you and they start to worry you are 'slipping away."
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What makes them finally quit??
There’s a myriad of reasons. One size does not fit all. Whatever their reason it was enough for them to walk out the door, pursue a divorce, move away (whether another city, state, country), take on another “luv” interest, ignore their children, etc.
Whatever that reason is, they’re no longer interested if you’re slipping away. They made the unilateral decision to have a different life whether we agree with it or not. One cannot control or manipulate another individual just because we don’t accept or agree with the choices they made. They have the right to live the life they believe they deserve or want. Whether right or wrong in our sight. Personally, I don’t believe all MLCer’s are “lost”. I believe some know exactly what they’re doing and they don’t care. They just want out. Which is a different topic altogether.
That said, LBS have choices as well. Each of us have a certain amount of time in this life. Would you rather live it and experience what it has to offer or live a stagnant life by thinking that “someday” he will return to you as the man he used to be. If that’s what you’re aiming for, you may be sorely disappointed. It's rare they come back as the person they were pre-MLC meltdown.
The wisest council I received on these forums was to take care of myself. GAL. My X doesn’t owe me anything regardless of how many years we were together or what he promised me. He changed his mind. He quit. He wanted a different life. I can’t change his decision. What I can do is go and make my life the best possible life I can. For me. If he returns, well then, I’ll cross that bridge should that happen.
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Strangely enough, much as it wasn't what I wanted, his wish to end our marriage and even his wish to be with someone else was not the damaging thing. It hurt me, of course, but my h had the right to choose to change his life. The bewildering damaging stuff was about the insane way he behaved in doing it and the relentless mindf**kery. The first would have left me sad and hurt; the second gave me PTSD and made me doubt my sanity.
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What makes them finally quit?
2013/2014, I read all the same advice on here.
Let go, protect yourself, live your best life, etc...
Pfft... I knew better. I KNEW my husband was coming back, I could feel he was coming back. I didn’t have to question MLC, MLC was obvious (he still fits MLC), but the old timers all said something else... time. I didn’t want to wait so I needed to find the key to hurry this up.
I read Stayed’s Husband’s letter. He felt Stayed slipping away. Well, that was the answer I was looking for. So I got to work..
I lost weight, dressed better, increased my social life and blasted it on social media. Not enough... okay, so I bumped it up a notch. I dated men that I knew would upset him. He was always a jealous man, that would get him. I dated a friend of his, I had a one night stand with a guy he threatened to stay away from me. I filed for the divorce, I pushed harder than he did to finish it,...
How more slippery could I get?
None of it worked.
Why?
The only thing I couldn’t manipulate was HIS timeline. He ran away for a reason. He needed to go on a separate journey away from me to see if it really was me that was causing his “unhappiness”. Now, six years later I’m pretty sure he knows it wasn’t me but he missed that boat. Maybe if I did listen to the old timers and just let go instead of putting all my focus on manipulating the situation, we would be in a different place. I’ll never know the answer to that question but I do know that all that focus on him didn’t help either one of us.
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Strangely enough, much as it wasn't what I wanted, his wish to end our marriage and even his wish to be with someone else was not the damaging thing. It hurt me, of course, but my h had the right to choose to change his life. The bewildering damaging stuff was about the insane way he behaved in doing it and the relentless mindf**kery. The first would have left me sad and hurt; the second gave me PTSD and made me doubt my sanity.
^^^^ Exactly that. As I tell my kids, it's not THAT he left, it's HOW he left. Try everything, it doesn't work, ok move on. But honor the contract you made when you married. Dissolve it with respect.
And this is why only the MLCER can say what makes them feel like their spouse is slipping away or if they even know or care, imo. If the MLCER hopes they can come back, it might matter. If they don't or haven't reached that point yet, it won't matter.
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Great post, nah.
I did the exact same thing, as you know, with my 1st H.
Of course it bombed. He did not care.
He did later on but by then I didn't care.
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The only thing I couldn’t manipulate was HIS timeline. He ran away for a reason. He needed to go on a separate journey away from me to see if it really was me that was causing his “unhappiness”. Now, six years later I’m pretty sure he knows it wasn’t me but he missed that boat. Maybe if I did listen to the old timers and just let go instead of putting all my focus on manipulating the situation, we would be in a different place. I’ll never know the answer to that question but I do know that all that focus on him didn’t help either one of us.
Yes, yes, yes!
I did things differently - the result is the same - it DOES NOT matter what we do, however focus on them has NO practical value at all.
That has been my experience.
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Thanks nah for speaking out. So often I have been "told" that until he really thinks he is losing me, he won't return with the insinuation that if I were to date someone, that would turn him back home.
As people have written, it doesn't seem to matter what we do...their crisis, their timetable.
I have a life, he knows that I have new friends, new activities, new work...but he also has a new life and one that he seems totally devoted to.
Unless he wants a wife and family again, and unless it is me that he wants, there truly isn't a thing I can do to change things.
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I just want to throw out a little thing -- the trigger that makes them see that they could return, that it IS possible to repair the damage, might be something very little -- like hearing a particular song, or reading about something in the news.
It can be that one little thing un-sticks the logjam, that for some reason causes a whole host of emotions to flood in, and sets off a reaction that causes them to look at the way their lives are going differently.
All the things others say are true -- but I do know of situations where it has appeared that someone in crisis has just suddenly come round; it's not that it actually happens in that instant, but that one little trigger causes things that may have been going round their heads (and that they have been pushing down) to surface, and it goes from there.
And THEN it comes down to where the LBS is, how willing they are to actually see what they have done, and so on.
And those little triggers are absolutely something that can't be manufactured.
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Hmmm. Now I'm really curious.....
Stayed, if you remember, how long had Mr. Stayed been in crisis when he felt you "slipping away?"
Because if it was around the 3-year mark, then we know that it's simply the MLC'ers clock, and not our actions.
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Stayed, if you remember, how long had Mr. Stayed been in crisis when he felt you "slipping away?"
As many have already written, it really doesn't matter. You are basing your criteria on one person's situation. Why is it so critical for you what Stayed's husband did?
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Why is it so critical for you what Stayed's husband did?
No...it's not.
It just bugged me not to understand what Mr. Stayed was talking about. Because in my mind, I could not have "slipped away" any more, unless I were dead. No speaking, no nothing, not even smoke signals. Sooo......what is left then?!
And we were discussing length-of-crisis timeline, vs. LBS actions. The former made sense.
I just wondered what a reformed MLC'er also had to say in the matter (if anything.)
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I am at the 3 year mark myself. And I am currently away from home, just as Stayed was when her husband started to panic. I leave contact to my H mostly unless there is an urgent matter. We have not had any disputes since I have been away for about 1.5 months now. He has acted juvenile on Skype at times (sticking out his tongue and giving me the bird in a joking manner, etc.), but whenever I have needed something from him he has been responsive. He even said he was sorry for doing something stupid unintentionally involving my fridge, only the 3rd time he has apologized for anything in the last 3 years. The other 2 times were for monster behavior. I get snippets that his mother's health may have taken a turn for the worse. He seems to have become obsessed with knowing what his patients are saying while in his waiting room because he hears them becoming noisy, which is a bit odd. Even asked me to bring him some sort of device to spy on them. I am sure he will forget this by time I return home, which may still be over 3 months from now, so I am in no rush to get him a spying device and told him he can get one when we meet up in the capital when I return if he really wants one but I told him I thought he should be paying attention to the patients he is examining and not the ones waiting outside. He also complained they are trying to jump the queue in terms of whose turn it is to be examined, and I gave him some suggestions how to deal with that. He may be having his last hurrah of MLC control freak, this time involving the patients. But I have no clue what is going on with him really at the moment, nor do I care. I'm busy where I am with stuff that needs to get done and he understands that and there's been no panic. I don't see any imminent signs of a big awakening, yet he is not being troublesome either.
I'll say this, once you reach 3 years of this, if you still are looking at the calendar or clock, then it's like watching a pot boil. Oh, he could have his big awakening when I return, but I am not holding my breath for it. It will happen when it happens. Things had been improving steadily since last November before I left at least in terms of us getting along better and that's enough for now.
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It's always interesting to hear from former MLCer's just to hear what they thought and felt during their crazy time.
We've had, over time, a few come back to answer our questions.
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We've had, over time, a few come back to answer our questions.
Oh I KNOW --- Denjef31 has opened my eyes X a million. Stayed's H has been really invaluable, too. Not sure what Chuck has to offer....but I'd imagine they're pretty sick of it all.
Still, I hang onto every word. And I daresay they're the ONLY things that have kept me Standing for this long (?!)
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I know we do, don't we?
Mego, I think it's ok to have hope in your heart, because you never know, but just try not to have high expectations it will happen.
Expectations are what we want to put at zero until we see some kind of change, and even then be cautious.
They do cycle a lot during this crisis. What may look like positive change could just be them cycling and still confused.
Just take good care of yourself and your son. Only look for any consistent changes and protect your heart.
You've been hurt enough.
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I hear you, Thunder!!
I have often wondered what it would take to lift my middle finger?! Because God only knows I've come close.....and still just might.
Re-marriage? Baby? Who the hell knows. The possibilities are downright frightening.
Just glad to know that his swimmers are failing him, at least until now (?!)
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You're right it is frightening, and I understand your fears. They are real and I'm sorry for that. I guess most of us have been there. Fearing the unknown.
No one knows how far they will take this ridiculous, awful relationship, but you have no control over it.
All you can do is try to detach from him and live your life the best you can.
There are no other options right now.
It does get easier with time. Not great, but easier.
One never knows if they will sense us slipping away, until it happens.
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I will tell you what my husband told the therapist when she asked him what made him return ... I was sitting there listening.
1. He said he NEVER wanted to leave in the 1st place. ( well...I can say bullsh%t to that , trust me ) but...what I suspect he meant was that he just lost control of himself, his life and his mental health. I guess.
2. He said that when OW told him that she was "sooo in love with him"...it shocked something in him and he said to himself "love ? WTF? WTF am I doing?". He told her that he had to find away to return home. She ignored that statement apparently.
3. He told the therapist that he always felt a "rope or cord" running between us and he felt it was NOT yet broken . (?)
4. He also told the therapist that he FELT NOTHING for a very long time... and suddenly he started to feel fear . FEAR of what he had done and fear he would never be able to fix it. He describes being in "shock" of what he had done and the man he became.
I have no true idea what happened. I saw him a week earlier and confronted him about his affair that I finally figured out. He denied , denied denied like the fabulous liar he had become. I absolutely "knew", so I simply ignored his denial until he finally admitted it. I sent him an email and in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS told him that NEVER would I lay eyes on him again as long as I lived, told him his stuff was packed, the name of my lawyer and bank account was closed , locks changed etc etc ... within 2 hours ( maybe less ) he was at my work place begging me to please forgive him and over and over he said " what have I done , what have I done". That's my story in a nutshell .
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Fear of losing me (because I was really ready to leave him) has motivated my husband to get his act together several times during his crisis. Expressing my feelings positive or negative has not made any difference at all and may even have made him more stubborn and recalcitrant at times.
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Barbie and Gone,
I think MLC H's are different than MLC W's.... but do you think they have to get to a certain point before you can spook them?
How long were they in before you threatened to kick them out of your lives forever?
Thanks!
-SS
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This is again somewhat different, but I truly don't think that fear of losing US is what does it, it is something more internal. Now for some perhaps it really is fear of losing us, but for many I think it more fear of facing themselves.
Years ago a well-meaning person told my H that other men were interested in me; my H then wrote to say that at first that felt weird, but that he would now fully embrace this and "we" could go forward, being friends, etc.
I set him straight and said that there wasn't anyone else, that my choice would be to repair our marriage and family, but that was actually besides the point.
As I learned later, as more and more info on his crisis came out, it was more that he thought that if I had someone else it would justify everything he had done, and he wouldn't have to account for any of it, he figured he wouldn't have to pay, that it was all OK. A minimising of the impact of the huge trauma his behaviour had caused. That he had "got away" with it all.
If we really are done, then it doesn't matter if we spook them or not, we're done.
And I don't think there is any particular timeline on how long it takes for them to feel anything in particular; what I described above was done after something like 2 years; my own experience shows that it is still all inside them, even if we do, like I have, get to see some of the process at times. And I have seen all sorts of things in the past decade.
That, in my opinion, doesn't change the fact that it is still up to us to become the best person we can be, and that means doing what is necessary to keep our finances in order, look at our own behaviour towards everyone in our lives, and keep learning.
Perhaps by doing so we are a type of lighthouse, the port in the storm, but that also means having firm boundaries and learning how to communicate those politely. If I have learned anything is that appeasement never works, and while nothing may "make" our spouses find their way to us, if they do we need to be strong and worthy of respect.
And the lovely thing about that is that it truly does make us "better" in all areas of life, be it with our children, our jobs, our friends, and so on.
My own only answer to my H about why I don't have anyone else has been that I get to choose how I live my life, and that having someone else isn't the only definition of happiness.
Now my H may choose to view that as pathetic at the moment (I actually don't know anything about what is in his head any more), but that could also change, and I don't know what could trigger that change, but it is very possible that it could be something very little, something unrelated to anything else, and if that happens we will see what kind of person he is then.
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If I have learned anything is that appeasement never works, and while nothing may "make" our spouses find their way to us, if they do we need to be strong and worthy of respect.
And the lovely thing about that is that it truly does make us "better" in all areas of life, be it with our children, our jobs, our friends, and so on.
This is GOSPEL truth..... and goes back to the fact that tit is THEIR crisis, there is nothing we can do to propel them through it faster but a lot we can do to prolong it (and thereby our own pain), that "MLC-spotting" and "stage watching" is a total waste of our time and energy, and that it is our job to do our own mirror work, proceed with our own growth, and live our own lives for us (and our kids if applicable). IF the MLC'er decides to return after some time and IF we decide that the Version of them is someone we are still interested in having in our lives and IF the person we have grown into is still someone the MLC'er wants in THEIR lives, THEN, there is a possibility (NOT a guarantee) that reconnection can begin which COULD (again, possible but no guarantees) lead to reconciliation.
BUT we need to do our own work, we need to have our own intrinsic growth.....
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OK we have to be careful here as some of these responses have started up the concept of a precise timeline again.
In MLC there is no linear timeline ither than the natural passing of the years
Barbie - your H returned quickly and in his conversation to your T talked honestly about the rope/cord and that he never wanted to leave. He also mentioned the feeling of nothing.
This is what is actually more important and the clear sign of the depression core of MLC. Generally people who are depressed feel nothing about the others closest to them.
Stayed's H' return was fairly quick (short time with OW) but it took a long time before truly reconciled.
RCR's H's return were many, to and fro claiming he wanted RCR but still had OW and the whole thing took several years.... Barbie's H's return may have been quick (yet again short time with OW) but it has been a very turbulent time for her and still not settled.
HB's H returned after several years but she also had a crisis herself.
There is no finite action that determines whether or why the MLCer quits. It is a waste of energy to hang on and see if there is anything you can do to to expedite that action. It will happen if and when it happens. Remember even if they do "quit" MLC there is no guarantee that they will return.
If they do - what do they return to? A vengeful spouse who wants to control the return or a person that is whole, grown and still growing and fully cognisant of their own values?
I have no idea when my H is going to quit his crisis; there are signs but they are just not strong enough and this is 6 yrs in. I may quit before he does
Either way ,the timeline - if you must obsess over it- for any "quitting" is not 2 or even 3 years because that might mark the end of replay; it does not mark the end of escape and avoid followed by liminality and reconnection (if they choose to).
Stayed once told me to prepare for 5 years of escape and avoid and if he reconnects another 5 years to reconcile. I remember shaking my head - saying no chance! And where am I? Still standing after 6 yrs. This was with my H who never left home - is a high clinger and still cannot face what he has done.
I am fairly convinced that even if I were to move away or do something dramatic like sue for divorce he would prefer to accept that because it's easier than fighting for our marriage which would require his self reflection, and personal growth. That for some MLCers is just too hard.
Returns are few and all the LBS can do is stop thinking about actions that help make them quit but get on with your life living it the best way possible - protecting your finances, self growth and finding your own way through life.
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Barbie and Gone,
I think MLC H's are different than MLC W's.... but do you think they have to get to a certain point before you can spook them?
How long were they in before you threatened to kick them out of your lives forever?
Thanks!
-SS
The when I think is irrelevant. It was the specific why's and circumstances of each incident that were important. That said I do think there are certain periods of time when mlcers are more likely to turn back if the lbs is not being a b!tc# all the time or they are not still engaged in petty battles with one another. If you read the return stories here there are clear patterns at about the 3.5-4 year mark and the 7-8 year mark. And I think that may be a function be of brain chemistry.
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but do you think they have to get to a certain point before you can spook them?
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Despite the actions of my husband , I do not believe you can "spook" them. Maybe that makes little sense considering how it went in my marriage , but I believe something else was at play within my husband and his return was not a result of my actions. I had no control in his need to leave and I do not believe I played any part in his return. Even he has said that. Others have tried all sorts of "shock" treatments and threats and their spouse did not respond and I believe this is more accurate of MLC. My case was a "fluke" so to speak , he had already decided he needed to come home and clean up his mess before I confronted him or sent any kind of email. He told his affair - cow that he "needed to find a way to fix his marriage and return to his family " many times ...she chose to ignore that. I know this factually because she is a family member( or she was) and told others that he wanted to "go home". How she continued to have sex with him is staggering ...unless she turned on the sexual - acrobat to try to keep him. What has damaged me FAR more is that he could have sex with her while wanting to come home and "fix" his marriage. That has changed my life...his body can respond and he can be sexual no matter what his brain is thinking... like an animal. So, any women will do...it was never about ME sexually. He can respond and be sexual with anyone. ( Sorry.. I digress) . Killer to know this. Bottom line...there is NO spooking in my opinion.
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I don't post much, but i do read this forum a lot for the first 2 to 3 years. I have since forced myself to get better and "get a life", it was a slow but rewarding process :) I knew who my true friends were and manage to travel a bit.
MLCer is finally crashing after 3 years post separation and he must be around 4 to 5 years in MLC by now, we were in contact on and off (text once a week at least) and got closer again the past 6 months as he was crashing HARD, massive fall out with his work, lost his apartment and life just literally fell apart around him. Took him to his first doctor's appointment last weekend so he can get on AD and his first session with a therapist scheduled for this week. He has been reading up on MLC and wished he knew about it sooner. All the social media happy posts were fake, trying to convince everyone he was happy, or thought he was happy anyway. He finally realised his EA that he left me for is as a crazy, manipulative, controlling, gold digger, has BPD and in his words, was sort of an "addiction" he couldn't escape. They did not sleep together and I believe him, but he slept with a few girls - we weren't together anymore and I was dating in between trying to move on, so it is what it is.
In short, he was in a fog and trying to recall why he did things he couldn't explain. He went back as far as his childhood issues, his father, his ex girlfriend's, us, over analysing every single detail in his life leading up to him messing up! It was hard listening to him opening up and talking about his feelings. I don't think he is done yet though but talking to a therapist is a good start. I don't know how or what I should feel right now, but trying to protect myself from being hurt again.
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This has turned into a very interesting discussion. It's painful to watch the clock waiting for stuff to happen, dissecting every behaviour or comment. It took me almost three years to fully take my eyes off the clock and direct my attention to me and my life and making the changes I wanted. And thank the powers that be that I did because I would have wasted another full five years of life and all the wonderful things that went along with it. My husband returned home just over a year ago after almost 8 years (since BD June 2000). He lived with his girlfriend the entire time and was likely seeing her for at least a year before BD - he was strange and surly and self absorbed for a couple of years before that. He alluded to his pain at the three year mark (since BD) and attempted a return at that time. That fairly quickly turned into an attempt to oust me from my home from the inside. It was a few months of cold, cruel manipulation but I dug deep and he finally went back to his girlfriend after almost 4 months. From there, they got "engaged" (yes, we're still married and never divorced - at that point we hadn't even obtained a separation agreement). I strongly feel that he never intended to obtain a divorce because that would leave him open to having to commit fully to this new relationship. He used me as an excuse, telling her I was dragging my feet. She would openly bash me online stating as much. Meanwhile, he avoided having any kind of official separation talks with me - except once when he presented me with the most ridiculous offer literally written on a napkin, stating "maybe this will stop the (OW) screaming". It's like he wanted to make it so ridiculous that I couldn't accept it.
ANYWAY...as far as him "quitting" MLC (it's still a work in progress), in our situation, he asked to come home right after our mediation while we were physically going through the contents in our home to decide who got what (early 2017). I avoided directly answering him and sort of pushed him off until, it seemed, he had worked things out with his girlfriend and things continued as before. It wasn't until the following year (early 2018) that he informed me that there had been significant changes in his life and he needed to discuss things with me. We were coming up to the forced sale of our house, as per our mediation agreement (still no signed separation agreement because he was refusing, although the financials were already signed off on and he was paying support at this time). I had assumed he decided they were going to marry and he would be requesting a divorce. Instead, he again asked to come home, stating it was for financial reasons, to be with his son and be a real part of his life, and to help me with the costs and running of the household so that i might have more free time for myself. I guess i must have seemed much more open to this line of reasoning because a week later, while I was away, he moved his stuff in. Apparently he had been packed for months. Today we live as a family and are planning to spend Christmas in some tropical location - the first real trip we will have ever taken. Is he done? I would like to think so but I'd never bet my life on it, or the life of my son, so I remain optimistically cautious where he's concerned. Never again will I allow myself to be at the mercy of any person, financially or emotionally. Much left to earn (trust, respect, etc...), he has. As long as he keeps going in his current direction, the sweeter his life will be ;)
I have often thought of what Stayed's husband said in his letter. I know many of us have. I do believe my husband thought he could easily just walk away at any time but he became trapped. He said so himself. My assumption was by his girlfriend. I think it had way more to do with this crisis. He could not escape that. I've said it before and I'll say it again here: he will quit when the pain of staying (with OW, in his crisis) outweighs the pain of leaving. No timeline with that, it just is what it is.
I had read somewhere previously that everyone goes through a "life cycle" every 7 to 10 years. So this quote stuck out to me:
Stayed's H' return was fairly quick (short time with OW) but it took a long time before truly reconciled.
RCR's H's return were many, to and fro claiming he wanted RCR but still had OW and the whole thing took several years.... Barbie's H's return may have been quick (yet again short time with OW) but it has been a very turbulent time for her and still not settled.
Yes, their returns seemed quick but the total time of settling down would likely be closer to the 7 year mark. Those who go through seemingly deeper or stronger crises might take two full cycles. Interesting thought...
I quickly hopped on the Google to see if I could locate the article I had read but found this, which I think sums stuff up pretty well.
https://www.yourtango.com/2018313160/how-your-mind-body-changes-every-7-years
I'll just copy a few relevant parts here... (if i'm not allowed, I apologize in advance)
42-49 years:
This is the stage when major changes in our lives take place. We self-introspect and take major turns be it in career or relationships. If we haven’t made any mark in life already, we try to achieve it at this age. Emotional love is more of an unconditional love now but a lot of us tend to retain that emotional age of a child. This is the age we start discarding stereotypes and believing in ourselves.
49-56 years:
This is the age of spiritual awakening. With the loss of our strength and vitality, we look inwards. We accept the changes in our bodies. For the ones who haven’t realized who they are and what’s their purpose in life, this age is the age of extreme depression.
56-63 years:
This is the age of accepting inner peace and embrace tranquillity in life. There’s a great shift in adjusting to our aging bodies, our relationships and our changing perceptions of the world around us.
Now this is what we all deal with so imagine someone who somehow missed gaining the "tools" needed to deal with this types of upheavals along the way.
I could ramble on, but I think I'll stop here :)
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49-56 years:
This is the age of spiritual awakening. With the loss of our strength and vitality, we look inwards. We accept the changes in our bodies. For the ones who haven’t realized who they are and what’s their purpose in life, this age is the age of extreme depression
Wow, that's scary!
So this depression is only going to get even WORSE?!? UGH!!! I take 200 mg of Zoloft as it is!!!!
As as aside: today marks my 18th unn-iversary. :(
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So this depression is only going to get even WORSE?!? UGH!!! I take 200 mg of Zoloft as it is!!!!
As as aside: today marks my 18th unn-iversary. :(
It certainly doesn't have to get worse. It's not set in stone - you can certainly make the changes necessary to get off that path. I came across this when I was at a pretty low point in my life and it helps to be reminded:
If you suffer, it is because of you. If you feel blissful, it is because of you. Nobody else is responsible, only you and you alone. You are your hell and your heaven too - Osho No truer words have ever been. Sure there are pretty $h!tety people and $h!tety circumstances walking this earth but they can only drag you down if you let them. It's a powerful truth and when you learn it and use it, it's total freeing.
I'm sorry today is one of those $h!tety days. Be good to you today :)
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Thank you, DCD
I can only wonder what runs through XH's mind on 5/27's.
Because between the two of us, HE is the romantic. HE is the one obsessed with history. HE loves real-life fairy tales, and all the dates to mark everything.
So it's incredible that he's chosen to decimate his very own story.
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Spock and DCD thank you so much for sharing your stories.
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This is the stage when major changes in our lives take place. We self-introspect and take major turns be it in career or relationships. If we haven’t made any mark in life already, we try to achieve it at this age. Emotional love is more of an unconditional love now but a lot of us tend to retain that emotional age of a child. This is the age we start discarding stereotypes and believing in ourselves.
OK, this is my "true" age bracket. I just don't agree with all of the assessment.
I agree with the unconditional love-thing. That's on-point.
I disagree with "trying to make our mark in life." All I ever wanted in life to be was a singer. Well DUH, that can never happen.....thanx, MLC! I can barely get a sentence out now......
I then defer to my second goal: to be the best mother and wife I can possibly be. So since XH tossed THAT out the window, I'm pretty lost and trying to remain that "special" person (LBS'er.)
Just trying to survive this storm, like everyone else. But I also know that I'm hardly alone (courtesy of this website!)
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No Mego, you are certainly not alone. :)
That's what I love most about this site.
Hugs
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OMG, I wrote this days ago and then when I took a break and returned it was gone—totally lost and not in my recovered files. I tried to recreate it but have the flu and was just not getting what I wanted to say to come out. Then I just restarted and guess what came through my recovered files!
Say I get sacked by the company I worked for 20 years.
I have this gut feeling that they will hire me back. No reason, I just feel that way. Intuition. Despite the severance payout and all the paper work that declares me legally dismissed from the company.
I respectfully disagree with your analogy. Apples, and oranges.
Because companies are STERILE. No emotions, no feelings, no nothing. JUST BUSINESS! So once you're let go, you're gone. There are no second thoughts, and no turning back.
Marriage is just the opposite.....all about people, very strong emotions. And per RCR, these people are only "lost .....not gone."
This is untrue of many companies. I think this is a perfect example. They are run by people who have relationships and care about the employees who leave—which is a reason some return. I would be very surprised if the remarriage rate of former spouses is as high as the return rate of employees to their former employer. I have even worked for places that had a policy in place for these bridge employees to see that they were credited for both periods of employment in seniority and benefits.
And your respectful disagreement is an example of you being dismissive—regardless of a differing opinion, it is dismissive., though I appreciate that you gave a reason for your disagreement so we can follow your train of thought.
I am in the same boat as everyone else - we ALL wonder if we will have enough to live on comfortably. I get alimony for the next five years. Then I got $300k in retirement, which has already grown to $335k, and will only continue until I'm 59 1/2. My lawyer said I was given a "good offer", and more than I would have won in court.
So why then does everyone feel that I'm so destitute?
Seriously? I wonder why you don’t? 300K is pennies when you are looking at retirement—you don’t get to touch that without penalties until the proper age! Suppose you don’t touch it in order to avoid the penalties and you get 2 doubling periods out of it. Then yes, at retirement you will have 1.2 million which may be suitable depending on your spending rates/living style and health. [added later” Oh I forgot, you already have a serious health issue—MS—that is likely to be expensive regarding your needs.] BUT what are you going to do in the meantime—you will need money up until that time! You are not thinking straight. If there is some clause that you may use it early without penalties, it will not last long and you will not have sufficient retirement. I agree with your lawyer that given how things are done in this day and age, that does sound like a good settlement, but it’s not enough for your personal financial well-being.
Personally, despite the hope he will one day come back, I made it my job to make sure I can get by no matter what happens. I wanted to be safe and maybe also a bit out of pride. If I was my H and I saw me (his wife) simply taking all the abuse and cr$p but still patiently waiting for him to "wake up" I would have no respect for my wife anymore and definitely I would not go back to that. [Emphasis added by RCR]
Also I want to make something clear to him. I don't NEED him, I don't need his paycheck or his help around the house. I want him in my life because I chose him as my life companion.. I'm learning to do what I need to do so I can make sure I can look after myself. He doesn't have my back anymore, he doesn't care about me right now and he might never care again.. I wish you could see that the same could happen to you.. And I hope that whenever you see it, it's not too late Mego.. Right now your "knowing" is giving you a false sense of security and the longer this goes on, the more time you are wasting.. Time you could be using to do something useful for you.
This is key. I am loathe to make predictions and yet I will as an example. Mego, as you are right now I do not predict reconciliation for you—even if your intuition is accurate. The reason is your lack of Mirror Work and to accept and be active with almost any advice offered—what to those of use reading feels like a refusal. Your intuition may be accurate, but within the right circumstances. My Knowing did not guarantee reconciliation. I always knew I could opt out simply by choosing to or by failing to progress and grow—not doing my own Mirror Work. For that Knowing to be realized I had things required of me, and you are not doing those things.
I doubt he is going to be shelling out for the ex-wife who chooses to sit on her ass and waits for a handout and a return from him.
I don’t think Goner was saying that SAHMs are lazy and sitting on their asses all day. Seriously after reading complaints about that to me I was prepared to review my day caring for my 5 to show that it is a lot more work than an 8 hour a day job! But no need.
I think Goner said that because Mego is still banking on being taken care of by her MLCer rather than doing enough to take care of herself. She is treating it as his responsibility—though she may not see it as this since for her it is the belief or idea that he will reconcile.
Mego this is not going to happen if you continue on the path you are present on and the odds are still low if you take the path of empowerment, but they are not nearly as low as if you do not.
It makes people feel better to tell them this is not their fault yet our circumstances which may have been out of our control still play a role in what happened.[Emphasis by RCR] Once again - blaming the spouse!
What? Facts—regardless of how hard they are to hear or you dislike them are not about blame. It’s not blaming the spouse. Some MLCers leave because of a LBSs illness or disability. Some become so scared of losing their spouse to death that they cannot handle it and run. Some can’t handle seeing someone they love in pain. I’m not offering a viable excuse for their actions, simply a reason—cowardice. Does the MLCers cowardice make it the fault of the LBS since it may tangentially be about the LBS’s medical condition?
He so badly wanted to reconcile with my Mother but by then it was too late. He thought she would hang around waiting forever or until he decided he wanted back in.
Your story is all-too-familiar. It seems like everyone's story! Perhaps that's why I don't panic about my future too much (?!)
Because once I learned what was REALLY going on with him, I realized the decision was mine to make.
Sometimes I seriously question and regret the things we say regarding advice and what MLCers are all about because they come back to bite us when someone takes them too literally, as being about all MLCers and as gospel.
The decision to want to return is the MLCers, not yours. The decision to accept or allow a return is the LBSs. That is two people who both have a say in what will happen. Why has it been said that the decision is the LBSs? Well, the desire to believe that the odds are better than they are has fed that beast. In the early days someone told me that Jim Conway said that 80% return and so I then ran with that (way before having my own forum). When I asked Jim about it, he said it was not from him—I’d heard it first from someone in his chat group—and so I stopped spreading it—I’d become doubtful. Reconciliations are rare, and yet LBS who think their intuition is telling them he will return are significantly less rare.
In my situation the decision was mine because it became clear he did and would want to return home. Forget my Knowings for a bit (I’ll talk about those later), it was clearly indicated by his behavior early on and continuing through his MLC. Others could tell our marriage was not ending. I even got the sense that people at the forum knew this early on.
The idea that the LBS universally has the decisive power is false. In the case of Clinging Boomerangs, it is more true, though not universally and the MLCer still has a say; it’s just that Clinging Boomerangs are more likely than others to desire reconciliation. This does not mean the rate of return is high even for Clinging Boomerangs, it just appears to be better than for others. And I say appears because it’s not something where I have an official statistic, I say this only from looking at the anecdotal experiences I have read on this forum—and at Divorcebusting. I can get an idea of patterns, but since I have not attempted a more rigorous scientific analysis, these may be inaccurate interpretations.
Now about your question. You have asked two questions which perhaps you think are the same, but they are quite different.
- What makes them finally quit?
- what, exactly, would make them feel as though you are "slipping away?
You're divorced, and never speak. You have nothing to keep you connected, other than alimony payments.
So what, exactly, would make them feel as though you are "slipping away?" i.e., how does the scenario that I've just described not qualify as full-on 'SLIPPED' away?!"
Slipping away is internal, so it is personal, emotional and mental, not about the external conditions.
Slipping away is about the LBS giving up their Stand and no longer wanting a relationship or reconciliation with the MLCer. It has nothing to do with a legal decision or even whether there is contact. THOUGH those things can lead the LBS to doing that—slipping away.
As for what makes the MLCer quit—quit wanting to return I assume—finally give it up once or if they may realize that is what they want?
You’ve had some excellent answers in this regard. Not all of them ever wanted to or will want to return. Some will accept it is not an option if their LBS is not open to it, though they will live with regrets. Some will live with regrets without wanting to return—either wishing they had ended things more appropriately or that things had not ended and repairs had been made…but it’s too late now.
About my Knowings and Intuition
People keep referring to gut feelings. This is not uncommon, but not accurate regarding my experience either. Though some did come as literal feelings in my gut, I would not describe the Knowing itself as a gut feelings.
I had two BIG Knowings and multiple small ones—a few were reminders of the original BIG Knowing. The second BIG Knowing was different, I will not discuss that one right now.
My Knowing was a physical feeling of gentle waves washing over my body paired with a message that things would be fine—that pairing is important. The feeling was one of peace and the physical waves lasted 30 – 60 seconds (so that was the duration of the Knowing). I had to interpret the meaning, did things would be fine mean in general, regardless of reconciliation? I knew things would be fine for me without reconciliation and did not need a Knowing to tell me that, so I interpreted it as my marriage would survive. For the next 3 – 6 months after that I had mini reminders—a very brief (1 to 3 seconds) wave of peace wash over me.
Now about the gut feelings… I did not recognize these as Knowings until I’d had several and the outcomes had been consistent. At first, I thought I was just having panic attacks paired with the wishful thinking I was always having. The gut feeling was the physiological symptoms of a panic or anxiety attack, but they seemed to come on suddenly and without my having the panic in my head—heart rate increased, stomach flutters and often a sense of urgency to get home. The message in my head was usually that Chuck would be at home when I arrived—this was what I thought was just my wishful thinking. He’d recently moved out and was not expected to be there, but every single time I had the gut feelings with that message, he was there. The incident that got me to trust and believe was when I was visiting with my mom 100 miles away and got a sudden and urgent feeling as communion began that I had to leave and go home NOW. I took communion and left immediately, drove 100 miles and Chuck was standing on the porch. I got home in the 5 minute space of time he was there. It was the morning after the affair became physical and the alienator was there waiting in the car. The experience of looking great and seeing her was empowering for me and I know it was a Knowing that got me there, that meeting was supposed to happen, though it was brief.
My intuition was not some thing that was just always there and I knew he’d come home. The intuitive experiences that let me know—feel certain—he would come home were isolated experiences of brief periods. My certainty was based on those AND on the evidence that followed: Chuck consistently showed an interest in me and in returning home. His interest was so clear that others interpreted it as I did—our marriage was clearly not doomed and not over.
My Knowing gave me the freedom to do my Mirror Work. Mego, it seems you are using your Knowing for the opposite: you know he will return, so you don’t need to worry about things, therefore you don’t need to do the work. This makes me think of that joke about the person in an emergency (say a flood) who gets a message from God that he will rescue them. They wait on top of the roof of their house for rescue and refuse the help of three different services offering rescue. When they get to heaven they complain to God that he promised to rescue them and did not do it. What does God say? I sent you the Red Cross, then the police boat, then your neighbors…and you wouldn’t go with any of them! Your Mirror Work is how God will fulfill the promise of your intuition.
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I had read somewhere previously that everyone goes through a "life cycle" every 7 to 10 years. So this quote stuck out to me:
Stayed's H' return was fairly quick (short time with OW) but it took a long time before truly reconciled.
RCR's H's return were many, to and fro claiming he wanted RCR but still had OW and the whole thing took several years.... Barbie's H's return may have been quick (yet again short time with OW) but it has been a very turbulent time for her and still not settled.
Yes, their returns seemed quick but the total time of settling down would likely be closer to the 7 year mark. Those who go through seemingly deeper or stronger crises might take two full cycles. Interesting thought...
I quickly hopped on the Google to see if I could locate the article I had read but found this, which I think sums stuff up pretty well.
https://www.yourtango.com/2018313160/how-your-mind-body-changes-every-7-years
I'll just copy a few relevant parts here... (if i'm not allowed, I apologize in advance)
42-49 years:
This is the stage when major changes in our lives take place. We self-introspect and take major turns be it in career or relationships. If we haven’t made any mark in life already, we try to achieve it at this age. Emotional love is more of an unconditional love now but a lot of us tend to retain that emotional age of a child. This is the age we start discarding stereotypes and believing in ourselves.
49-56 years:
This is the age of spiritual awakening. With the loss of our strength and vitality, we look inwards. We accept the changes in our bodies. For the ones who haven’t realized who they are and what’s their purpose in life, this age is the age of extreme depression.
56-63 years:
This is the age of accepting inner peace and embrace tranquillity in life. There’s a great shift in adjusting to our aging bodies, our relationships and our changing perceptions of the world around us.
Now this is what we all deal with so imagine someone who somehow missed gaining the "tools" needed to deal with this types of upheavals along the way.
I could ramble on, but I think I'll stop here :)
Here is a book I read on this subject.
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=100.msg14949#msg14949
Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy.
I just finished this book.
I enjoyed this one as it goes into explanations of different periods of a mans life.
A little bit of his twenties, thirties,more in depth on 40's,50's,60's and beyond.
It has some funny anecdotes on each stage.
There is some mention of women in the book, but it would be nice to read a similar book on women's passages.
One thing it did say is men live longer if they are married!
Also that the older that men get the smaller the life expectancy age gap is between men and women.
I would suggest this book if you want to know more about this subject,
this author is very good with it.
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I disagree with "trying to make our mark in life." All I ever wanted in life to be was a singer. Well DUH, that can never happen.....thanx, MLC! I can barely get a sentence out now......
Why can't it? If you want it you can make it happen. But it would take a lot of hard work and drive...anything we want we can go for. Only YOU can hold you back.
Your intuition may be accurate, but within the right circumstances. My Knowing did not guarantee reconciliation. I always knew I could opt out simply by choosing to or by failing to progress and grow—not doing my own Mirror Work. For that Knowing to be realized I had things required of me, and you are not doing those things.
Absolutely 100 percent this.
I think one of the ''Mr J's'' from lawproffessor (the friend?) wanted to return home, but his wife had not changed...she was stuck in LBS purgatory...so HE decided he could not reconcile with her because SHE had not done any mirror work.
The decision to want to return is the MLCers, not yours. The decision to accept or allow a return is the LBSs.
This is absolutely true, and when they decide to try and return...they got to see something worth returning to.
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Yes, Morte, that's my J. Just a couple months ago J's wife called J. She was crying. She said she NEEDED him and asked him if she could move in with him. (Nevermind it's my house🙄). She went into great detail how they could recreate the life they had and how she still loved him and was always STANDING for their marriage, how she KNEW always they would get back together.
He sadly and slowly just shook his head no. He told her he isn't the same man that he was but she she is still the same little girl he left.
She screamed, "you promised to always love me and take care of me."
He replied, "yes, and I did. We were so young and you never grew up with me".
She being very literal minded replied, "Of course I grew up. I'm 54 for God's sake.
He replied, "Yes, you've gotten older. We both have. But you haven't grown up emotionally. You still think I need to take care of you instead of the two of us being partners. The kids are long grown. You wanted to be a SAH mom. And you were. But who are you now? You have no job, no interests, no hopes and dreams other than that I come home and take care of you. You sit all day and night watching television and have nothing to say other than about something about a movie or TV show. You keep telling everyone what you can't do because your "sick". Look I know you have xxx and I'm sorry about that but you are still waiting for someone to take care of you. I was your husband not your father.
She screamed, "You don't know what I do all day. I do daughters laundry and cook for her. I drive her to appointments."
"Hmmm daughter is 22. You've made sure daughter is still dependent on you. And that's why she ran away with the first man who'd have her. You are smothering the life out of her by not allowing her to grow up."
Screaming, "Daughter still needs me."
"You still scream so you don't have to hear what others are saying to you. You still have a big mouth, and nothing but anger and emotional outbursts when you don't get your way. It's pathetic and boringly predictable. You're just the same spoiled brat I married."
Screaming, "I am not!!!! I'm standing and fighting for our marriage".
J, shaking his head, "Yes you are. You can stand for our marriage all you want. Hell, sit down for our marriage. You must be tired after all these years. Standing doesn't me anything when you won't stand and fight for yourself. I'm done. Peace is more important. And honey you are not peace."
This is why Mego's thread is so irritating. She acts just like J's wife.
Angry
All mouth
Refuses to look at herself and do mirror work
Stuck in promises of the past
Sees blame everywhere but in herself
More excuses and justifications than the criminals I work with.
Mouth runs constantly
Negative thought patterns
Ego
Hard headed and stubborn
Cherry picks answers rather than listening, dismissive.
So no need to waste my time here. I've already wasted too much time with the Illinois version of you. And I'm not the one who has patience for mouthy girls anymore.
Lp
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This thread has reached the posting limit and has gone off-topic. Therefore it is locked. Thanks.