Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Anon on May 30, 2019, 08:16:57 PM
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I read so many posts here about the om/ow in the lbs stories. I've read that something like 97% of MLC's involve an affair. The other 3%? Wallowers, perhaps and they don't typically have affairs. Most of the reconnection and reconciliation situations also involved affairs during the crisis.
So this is the million dollar question. Is the affair necessary in order to process their unconscious buried 'stuff', somehow? HB seems to think it helps and may even be necessary to face whatever is bugging them.
When hit with these unresolved issues that rise to the surface, there are 2 options: Either the MLCer deals with their unresolved issues internally, through introspection, brooding or whatever that involves, or they deal with these issues externally, which means through an affair partner who they can reenact and fix whatever caused their deep psychic wounds. Those who deal with the issues internally are supposedly not in a Midlife Crisis but in the milder Midlife Transition. No affair,,, at least the family is spared that agony even if things are seriously wrong in the marriage for awhile while they 'introspect' themselves through their transition.
Those of us here are not so lucky to just be dealing with a spouse in Midlife Transition. Most are in MLC and from reading the posts here, it's hard not to conclude that the almost inevitable affairs do anything other than hinder progress and slow down their progress. Especially when they get involved with a Personality Disordered partner that has them in a death grip. Even so,,, is there a lesson in that experience with a PD partner that helps them process stuff? Like,,,were they raised by a PD parent so it now makes sense to figure out those issues with a PD partner?
If the MLCer isn't the introspective type (my h sure isn't), then what is the alternative? Are affairs inevitable then and back to the original question.... do they help or hinder the progress through the crisis?
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Anon,
I think it is a requirement. I can't prove mine has had one yet, but I'm trying to gear up for it and accept it's inevitable. It is.
There are so many dynamics to that...... before this MLC, we had both told each other that cheating would result in D...... period. We both believed it would be impossible. Then this happens.
In some twisted way, it is a benefit......... what strength does it take to forgive such a horrible thing? If God does use these things to make us better, it is a very effective crucible.
It makes me wonder.... all those people out there, that will never experience this...... heck, even know it exists...... are they better off than us.... or worse?
I'm very thankful to God for starting to show me who I am, what my faults are, and how to fix them. What a price to pay. The MLC will pay an even bigger price. What they gain, I have no idea.
-SS
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The higher the energy in replay the faster and hotter the fires of replay burn.
The lower energy may not do as much damage but it takes much much longer for the fire to burn out.
So I think you may be comparing a tornado to a hurricane and asking which one helps or hinders.
Either way there is lots of damage.
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I think in some ways it can do both or have no impact what so ever... :o
It could prolong the crisis as the role of OW is as a band aid and distraction from their inner demons. So the longer OW is involved the longer it takes them to resolve their issues and the longer they stay in replay. The dynamics of the affair also make a difference. So a PD OW may either prolong replay with the use of manipulation, emotional blackmail etc or shorten in as it may lead to wanting to escape.
It can shorten replay if OW is used as a way to process FOO issues. In my case I dont see OW as similar to MLCer’s parents but what I do see is that he has picked someone who he would never have been allowed to as a teenager and so massive rebellion against his parents and everything he was brought up as.
Or.....it makes no difference at all to the length of crisis.
The crisis is internal therefore OW or whatever is used as distraction will serve its purpose until what ever internal is fixed. There are so may factors and variables involved...but ultimately the factors are related to the MLCer not the tool for distraction.
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I really wish I knew. My H will not answer anything, I don’t know what a stupid girl 27 years younger has to offer. Everything about it kills me. I don’t know what it serves.
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Sun, think of it as alcohol. It serves the same purpose.
I have a high replaying MLCer with an OW he thought was 20 years younger, so a classic. He's still at it. My friend, however, I've spoken about her before, both her and her H doctors, he had a MLC, wallower, no affair, BDropped them, left the house 1 week later, then left and went to live on the other side of the world for 2 years. Would have been a vanisher if my friend hadn't insisted he phone the boys once a week on the house phone, which she would pick up and say hi first. He had an awakening and came back. Said he doesn't know why he did what he did. So it can happen quickly even with a wallower. Certainly there's less damage to fix if there hasn't been an affair.
I think it's like OP said, turnadoes and hurricanes.
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I don’t really know. But I’m attaching cos I’m interested ha!
With me I don’t believe the affair started until after BD. I have a sneaky feeling I kicked him out and that caused BD just in the nick Of time before an affair could start. Ow only came on the scene weeks after.
In my case I think Ow represents the freedom he craved. When the BD we were a family of 5 very much on the breadline. Ow is a year older than me however she has no responsibilities. No kids. Living with Mummy and daddy blah blah blah. So I think the attraction was “wow she can do what she wants@ type of thing. So she is very much the band aid. However the band aid is also paying for lots of luxuries he wouldn’t have if not for her.
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The affair is necessary.
My xH went searching for the perfect ow and after possibly ?three false starts, he finally found her. She is the same age as he is and very like his mother - controlling & as cold as ice.
This article from HB really says it all. The MLCer uses the ow/om to fill the gaps in their upbringing. That's why it's called REPLAY. Love this article. Almost makes me like the ow ;)
https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/past-parental-issues-and-the-affair-partner-an-explanation/
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Both probably. And sometimes makes no difference at all to an internal crisis would be my guess.
Landscape, distraction, feel good addiction, enabler, bolt hole, partner in crime, fantasy to run to, justification, mother/father figure...I suspect that ow/om is not much more than a necessary player as Savvy says in the internal drama and probably has as little impact on their progress as we do. If it is MLC, and they do ever recover, I suppose the ow/om changes from these things to something to learn from....like a mirror maybe. Or a good slug of the terrible karma of being careful what you wish for lol. My instinct was that xh's choice to marry ow was just another bit of running in the hope that some other woman would fix him rather than him take responsibility for his own demons, so in his case I suspect it will hinder his progress perhaps....and that his likely second divorce in a few years time will be hideous bc she is not a very healthy person and not me :)
As Savvy says, the articles on ow do seem to be surprisingly accurate in my situation anyway.
What they do bring perhaps is more damage to clean up, another set of responsibilities or a messy situation to feel trapped in and unacceptable risk/damage to the LBS or kids if they are the bats$it crazy types of ow/om.
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I agree it is distraction/ running/fixing a problem. I suppose the usefulness or otherwise of an affair for the identity crisis is whether enough self awareness occurs at some time for the MLCer to decide to do the psychological work necessary to get over their problems. Maybe the ow is enough of a sticking plaster for life to continue and feel ok. Maybe they’ll find another and keep running, repeatingnir making new mistakes.
But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together.
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But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together.
Ah!!!! I was wondering about this for weeks..... this is the best explanation I've seen. Makes perfect sense. Thanks Nerissa!!
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But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together.
Ah!!!! I was wondering about this for weeks..... this is the best explanation I've seen. Makes perfect sense. Thanks Nerissa!!
Makes sense to me too...and that perhaps even more likely that we LBS become sufficiently different as a result of this experience that we no longer want what they might have to offer even if they do try to reconnect.
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I really wish I knew. My H will not answer anything, I don’t know what a stupid girl 27 years younger has to offer. Everything about it kills me. I don’t know what it serves.
I had an MLT with no PA. However, I was in a position at the college I worked for where I was an adviser for a student club and I think for me, part of the fun was being able to do highschool or college over, kind of. Except this time around, I got to be the cool guy.
I think I experienced many of the same things MLCers do.. regret, anger, frustration of past failures, lack of direction, ambition, getting older, the road not taken ect.
Simply going out and being part of a group makes you feel good about yourself because you just need to walk the walk and talk the talk and feeling good turns off all the other parts of your brain. That's why I think lifestyles are so addictive. They just short circuit the brain. We have instant access to so many validating feelings with so little effort and risk, emotionally.
Your husband is older than this girl, he's got a job, money to throw around probably. It's a relationship of power. I think it's as depraved and sick as a 30 year old dating a 16 year old.
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I don't pretend to have an answer to this, I really don't know.
In our case, the relationship with ow has been ongoing since before BD as far as I can tell. So, coming up to nine years now.
I cannot pinpoint her as being like either of his parents - I am rather like his mother, if you wish. The uncanny thing is that he is doing exactly as his own father did and part of his leaving home involved getting close to his father's ow and his sister, who was the product of their relationship. Perhaps he rejects me because that is what he saw his father do to his mother. He seems to be replaying his father's life and decisions. His father died six years after leaving home as a result of a heart attack brought on by being a chain smoker and alcoholism. He was young - 53.
H. and ow lived together for four and a half years (three years he was still legally married to me), they don't currently live together but are in a full fledged relationship and this year has seen him refuse to be at any family event where I am present and has imposed ow's presence at kids' birthday parties events after I have left or am not present. She is a very constant presence in his life - his whatsapp picture is a picture of the loved up couple. This behavior may be at her insistence, however, it is presented as HIS choice.
Help or hindrance? I don't know.
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I really wish I knew. My H will not answer anything, I don’t know what a stupid girl 27 years younger has to offer. Everything about it kills me. I don’t know what it serves.
I had an MLT with no PA. However, I was in a position at the college I worked for where I was an adviser for a student club and I think for me, part of the fun was being able to do highschool or college over, kind of. Except this time around, I got to be the cool guy.
I think I experienced many of the same things MLCers do.. regret, anger, frustration of past failures, lack of direction, ambition, getting older, the road not taken ect.
Simply going out and being part of a group makes you feel good about yourself because you just need to walk the walk and talk the talk and feeling good turns off all the other parts of your brain. That's why I think lifestyles are so addictive. They just short circuit the brain. We have instant access to so many validating feelings with so little effort and risk, emotionally.
Your husband is older than this girl, he's got a job, money to throw around probably. It's a relationship of power. I think it's as depraved and sick as a 30 year old dating a 16 year old.
Something similar happened in my own case. Our relationship had become rather parent /child and as we hit fifty, this was no longer attractive to H. His affair is over but he has returned to the rather rebellious teenager he was rejecting when I met him. At that time he was looking for security and a settled partnership with someone to care for and to reciprocate. He wanted support for his adult life path and a wife and mother. The return to teenage attitudes doesn't fit the current me.
He is slowly working on his issues, though not in ways I would choose. He has recently asked for joint therapy. I suspect though that the person he becomes might well be quite New Age/ free spirit as a more grown up version of the teenager he used to be and I am not those things, nor am I attracted to him while he is the way he is. In addition to all this, we still have quite a few resentments, old patterns and assumptions about each other which need a shake up since we don’t really know each other any more.
If we go through with therapy to address these points , it will be to ensure a better relationship but not necessarily a reconciled one, although I would consider that in the unlikely event that seems possible. Although anything is possible with these people as we have all found out, usually to our great dismay. H’s mother turned into a New age , attention seeking twerp in the last third of her life and stayed like that so I’m not holding out huge hopes, except that she caused quite a lot of disappointment to her children. He seems to have forgotten all that and is repeating history.
Edited to say I posted before I read your post Mitzpah. Two of us whose spouses display similar a tions
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For my Wife the Affair Partner is an integral part of the crisis.
It would have been better, nicer, easier had she been able to work through her past internally, which she did try with me or thru counseling, but the more she learned about herself the more depressed she became. Introspection when it occurred was terrifying for her. Her greatest nightmare was to suffer the same mental fate as her mother.
So here she is having an affair/relationship with a guy who is exactly like her Father and treating me exactly as her Father treated her Mother. Lately she has started stating she is suffering from the same “illness” as her Mother. I should state I am completely opposite of both her parents, which must be why I was banished.
My Wife is on some kind of journey. She sends me "postcards" when she feels the need to share. The Affair Partner is not the tour guide, nor the bus driver, maybe he is more like the Cheshire Cat, making my Wife more like Alice. Whatever the case, he is part of the trip.
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My H has been with his OW for over 5 years now. I can't see the resemblance to either of my H's parents, but then I don't really know the OW. I am a bit like H's mother, so not a sexy look I think.
Just like Mitz's H, my H has turned into his father who left the mother for an OW, much younger. H really disliked everything about his father, but now he's his clone: cheesy, slimy, stingy, moneyless, with a big fake smile.
I do think what Nerissa said makes complete sense. It's possible that when a long time passes, we are just no longer compatible.
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I'm not like my xh's family either which I suspect was part of my initial appeal. He said once that he had never met anyone who could be relied on to keep their promises and who didn't do manipulation as a life sport ::)
I don't know much about ow but the little I do know suggests she is a bit like his mother (who is narcissistic and probably borderline, long history of mental illness) and xh has become his father (a small fat bitter bullying man who self medicates with angry silence, work as avoidance and booze). Sad.
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I would just like to say that although I say I am like his mother - I am not physically like her at all, just in the strength and character. She and I were very close and we respected each other. She died 24 years ago, 13 years after his father. She was probably what you would call a covenant stander, except she refused to have her h. (FIL) back when he came home one night, completely drunk and incoherent. After that night, he threw his lot in with his ow and she got pregnant with h.'s half sister who is 19 years younger than h. and I. My MIL loved her h. till she died even though she had refused his drunken advances years before. She actually described herself as a widow after his death. We (as a family) only got close to ow and her daughter after her death - the half sister was then about 15.
I think my h. thinks I am like his mother in that I hold high standards... perhaps he feels he cannot face me. I don't really know if he identifies me as his mother now, certainly a mother figure because I am the mother of his children and over the years (since BD), he has praised me for that... Not that I desired that, I would much prefer he recognize me as a woman :P
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My instinct was that xh's choice to marry ow was just another bit of running in the hope that some other woman would fix him rather than him take responsibility for his own demons,
I'm with Treasur on this one, this is what resonates with me... and I also see in my H the not wanting to face me, as I have "high standards", and he feels inadequate....
I don't honestly know how they work their way out of that, I stay out of the way now, and have for a long time.
As to whether or not this is necessary? Perhaps for them to find out that it doesn't work, although you'd think mine would have found that out, as I think he holds the record here on the forum for the number of OWs, but I saw a few years ago that he seemed to be becoming himself again, there hadn't been an OW for over a year, it even appeared that he was looking at himself a bit, and then he (quite suddenly, it appeared to me at the time) ran hard -- and yes, it turned out that the latest OW was there. Which is why I agree with Treasur's assessment....
I also don't know much about the OW, but from the little I know she is nothing at all like his mother, nothing at all like me, so goodness knows what. Perhaps it's just that -- something different, maybe just the "someone worse than him" that we often talk about here.
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Actually my last thought is....who cares? It's not my crisis.
And just as MLC behaviour undoubtedly trumps divorce, it seems as if it trumps ow#1 or ow#101 too :)
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The affair is necessary.
My xH went searching for the perfect ow and after possibly ?three false starts, he finally found her. She is the same age as he is and very like his mother - controlling & as cold as ice.
This article from HB really says it all. The MLCer uses the ow/om to fill the gaps in their upbringing. That's why it's called REPLAY. Love this article. Almost makes me like the ow ;)
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I agree with this 100% . From my experience , all my research and talking with many therapists ..it had to happen. There was a purpose for it . As much as I hate all of it ( and I feel the hurt just typing this ) it HAD to happen for some men ...maybe not all, but I doubt it.
The very 1st therapist I spoke with used the term " the black dog of midlife". I knew him prior to BD and he was very apologetic and concerned that this would happen to "me". He told me that I was " out of my husbands picture"..that he was on a desperate unstoppable search for resolution to all that ails him from his childhood. Allburied for far too long. He insisted that the " universe or the forces that be" are taking him back to his "woundings" and it is time to deal with them. REPLAY of those times that desperately need resolution and permanent healing. An "opportunity" for him to become "whole". She ( OW) plays an absolute part ...like temporary train tracks this out of control freight train of a man will ride on .... for awhile. He is drawn to her because she is the re-incarnation of his wounds . Of course all of this is buried deep inside the subconscious but it is running the "escape". He told me to stay off the tracks...they are not meant for you. Leave him alone 100% and you may meet him again in a year or two and you will either hate him forever or love him again. He told me that the larger percentage of men that he sees DO return to their family ...very broken and full of shame. But , the deeper level healing of previous wounds has occurred or is in that process. SHE is the only one that can do this ...NOT a wife. The wife has been put in a spot of protection...from him . Now, I wept thru this entire conversation and dismissed most of what he said ...because what sh%t is this ? I was very very early in this crisis and just trying to stand up.
The OW will be a representative of his wounds. She will be either the mother wound or the father wound and is the vessel of his subconsciously returning to the "scene of the wound" to re-write it or "something" to heal it and integrate it into acceptance and healing. My husbands childhood wounds are extreme... the worst some therapist have seen and some find him astonishing that he made it this far successfully. He should be in prison... and had he lost control of his "mask" , that's where he would be. He has a deep profound rage and wounds from both his parents.
SHE was the mother wound ... I can follow that logic. His mother left ( severely injured in an ambulance on what my husband describes as a snowy black night) . He was 3 and watched his father beat his mother and stab her from his screaming spot behind a pole lamp. He had blood on his jammies...and he would not stop screaming until someone took him from the room. It was his uncle that finally grabbed him and took him out of the room. His uncle was only 13 ( my husband was 3) and he is a constant visitor in our home and remembers it all very very well. My husband never saw his mother again and grew up believing she was dead. She was 18 at the time and left a 3 year old, a two year old and a new born. So... in my understanding this is the mother of all wounds to a child ... she is gone. His mother. And they do find a way to blame themselves , even at 3. Many of his uncles have spoken to him over the years and told him it was NOT his fault. SOOO , my interpretation. What is a mother supposed to be in the perfect world?
The OW in my husbands case ... was that mother wound. She accepted him NO MATTER WHAT . That he was a liar and was deceiving 5 adult daughters ( that she had a relationship with) meant nothing to her. He had a "right" to be happy. She accepted he was a liar. He was a cheater . She accepted this . He was unemployed and broken. He was absent a lot... even from her . She accepted him as flawless , perfect, her savior ... that no matter what he did, who he was, how he behaved, what his character was, who he would destroy ...he was everything to her, would risk anything to be with him. She validated him. He was perfect just as he was , all his flaws, all his imperfections... she loved him as a mother would love a child, would never leave him . She wears a permanent smile on her face... no matter what. That is who she is and must be in her line of work. Always "happy" to customers etc. A permanent grin plastered on her face ...even when inappropriate. She is rather "simple". ...but happy. He could never make me "happy"... so he said repeatedly. My husband is a very tactile person. And here sits my wound.... She was physically all over him, she initiated sexual contact, she hugged , rubbed his back, cut his hair, would sexually do anything to keep her savior. It would have been his "spot" or his most vulnerable place is thru touch. Somehow mixed in there is a mothers touch ... caressing, comfort, acceptance. Jung has some explanation of this ... ( it creates endless movies, hurt and anguish for me ... so enough about it) . That is my limited understanding of a far deeper , complex "happening" when re-playing childhood wounds. HIS therapist has absolutely shared this this theory with him .. she was the vessal on healing a mother abandonment wound. I only understand it in shallow ways...but I know it is truth.
SHE was without question his father as well... more so actually. This OW served a dual "healing" if you accept such things. She is an alcoholic , even drinking at work. His father ? A raging alcoholic and undoubtedly a narcissist . She has BPD and struggled with anorexia as a teen. I have know her since she was 16 or 17 and was "friends" with her mother . Her 1st marriage involved marriage to a man in his 60's and she was barely 20. Her 2nd marriage ended with her in jail charged and convicted of assault. Her 2nd husband required 2 facial re-constructive surgeries as she struck him in a drunken rage with a glass vase. In the face...repeatedly. She has twice been divorced , several CL relationships and my husband was her 3rd "married " man. She has 2 sons. One is permanently disabled from drug induced physhosis and the other has sexual-orientation issues. My husband was her "white knight" that she intended to keep at all costs. My husbands father was the most physically abusive man I ever met... he was in and out of jail but primarily beat women and children. Is this all just a fluke that he would be drawn to the exact clone of his father ?? The female version I do not think so at all. Something else subconsciously was taking place... it had to happen. My husbands affair lasted ( if I have the actual truth) from march until mid November. So a total of 9 months. Very very short from all else I have seen. I do not know why. I discovered his affair 1 week before he threw her in the garbage in the cruel callous way... and attempted to return home. Did it "hinder " or "help?". I guess it served him and his issues. His therapist sees it as a "gift" of transition and was not a "true affair" at all. Not the common type of affair ...but some part of an awakening and resolution of trauma from his childhood.
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Wow Barbi--thank you for sharing that. I know it must have been very painful re-living it, but it helps those of us still in the throws of the MLCer's affair to better understand, and thus, to deal with it.
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My husband was her "white knight" that she intended to keep at all costs.
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he threw her in the garbage in the cruel callous way...
Barbie, thanks so much for your amazing post. I am so, soooo sorry that you've had to go through so much and also that your H had to experience what he did, especially when he was little. :(
I also believe that if it's MLC, the alienator, whether it is the most common type (affair) or not, does seem to be some kind of reenactment tool for working through a dysfunctional parental relationship--and that this alienator basically replaces the spouse for the purpose. I don't have much of a window on my xH's life, but I did see how the broken addict I was suddenly replaced with echoes the major dysfunctions of both his parents. His self-worth issues are glaring--he jumped right into the knighting and people-pleasing and (most likely unconsciously) buying a whole new set of "friends" who are only too happy to stick out their hands for more favors. Good luck to him...
The two short items I quoted from your post are really striking to me.
I'm sure it's different for different MLCers/OW, but...I wonder what makes an MLCer stop wanting to be a knight for these broken people (and the various hangers-on) and find them no longer so desirable? After all, they started out thinking it was all the best. idea. ever. ???
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Complicated question. As Barbie stated so well, the AP is used by the MLCer to attempt to work through unresolved issues related to childhood neglect, trauma, and abandonment. Is the AP necessary? Not really. Proper therapy would be much more helpful but MLCers aren't the type to talk to a therapist and most therapists don't know how to properly treat MLCers anyway. For the MLCer the AP is like a home remedy.
Does the AP help or hinder the MLCer's journey? Without a doubt, the AP hinders the MLCer's journey. I'll use my wife as an example to explain why. My wife's om is very much like her abusive father. When she was a child she couldn't make her father love her because her father was a abusive narcissist. Her experience with the om will be the same as it was with her father because she isn't the problem, her father and the om are both incapable of loving her. So the resolution that she's looking for, making her "father" love her, won't happen.
It is possible that my wife will eventually realize that it isn't her fault that her father abused her and then she will be able to begin to recover. I know it's possible because it happened for her sister after the man her sister was with put a gun to her head and threatened to kill her. The problem is that the APs are usually very good at manipulating and abusing people like the MLCers and I think that's why these affairs last for so long. The AP prolongs the MLC.
Here are links to two articles that do a good job of explaining what Barbie was talking about. It's called reenactment compulsion. The first article, by van der Kolk, is a classic by one of the foremost experts in the field of childhood trauma.
The Compulsion to Repeat the Trauma
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/ (http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/)
A Helpful Way to Conceptualize and Understand Reenactments
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330499/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330499/)
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Thank you Barbie for your generosity and courage in sharing that especially now.
And thank you Hawkeye/Brain as always for adding a way to deepen our understanding
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MLCers have far more than an affair, they live, or even marry OW/OM. An affair is something kept in secret behind a spouse's back.
Totally hinder the crisis and it tend to be one of the major things, if not the major thing, that prevents reconnection and reconciliation.
Are affairs/living with OW/OM inevitable? I don't know, but most MLCers seem to go there.
Not all high energy MLCers have affairs. I didn't, Ready2 didn't. Our crisis come after our husbands left.
The higher the energy in replay the faster and hotter the fires of replay burn.
Not really. As seen by Mr J and many other MLCers. They just keep on the high energy for years on end. It is misleading to think the higher the energy the fast it will burn. HS is full of examples that show otherwise.
Most will never reconcile and the major reason is that the MLCer got involved with someone else, or several someone elses. Therefore, as far as the original couple is concerned, affairs aren't of much use. They also don't seem to be of any, if much, use for a MLCer.
I am still to know a real life MLCer that has tried to work any issues with OW/OM.
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Thank you for that, Barbie -- definitely something to think about.
My H didn't have anywhere near that kind childhood issues, but one thing that did resonate with me is that the OW considers him perfect even though she knows he is anything but -- again, I don't know much about my H's situation, but from what has reached me I gather that the OW definitely is one who gives him that kind of adoration you describe. I get the impression that she just wanted a man, and now that she has one she will do anything to keep him. And she definitely knows which physical buttons to push as well.
It is possible that she doesn't know much of what he has done, but on many levels I find that very hard to believe, so I can only conclude that it makes no difference to her.
And as such, I would think that in this case it hinders progress, because he doesn't have to do any work -- even though he is in a way trapped, he doesn't have to face anything, because he gets the adoration no matter what.
But as a recipe for happiness? No way.
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My H didn't have anywhere near that kind childhood issues, but one thing that did resonate with me is that the OW considers him perfect even though she knows he is anything but -- again, I don't know much about my H's situation, but from what has reached me I gather that the OW definitely is one who gives him that kind of adoration you describe. I get the impression that she just wanted a man, and now that she has one she will do anything to keep him. And she definitely knows which physical buttons to push as well.
It is possible that she doesn't know much of what he has done, but on many levels I find that very hard to believe, so I can only conclude that it makes no difference to her.
And as such, I would think that in this case it hinders progress, because he doesn't have to do any work -- even though he is in a way trapped, he doesn't have to face anything, because he gets the adoration no matter what.
Lots of interesting and informative stuff shared here so far.
The above parts from T&L's post that I have put in bold accurately describe how I feel things are for my MLCer and his new OWife. After all, he is her 5th marriage license in my county so I anticipate she will pretzel herself into just about anything to hang on to him. After all, she turns 50 this year and it's going to become harder to find husband number six!
Barbie - thank you for sharing. I read several books on depression and midlife crisis when my MLCer ran away. I think it was the Jim Conway book that mentioned the "black dog of midlife".
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Very interesting conversation. Hmmm where to start.
My H is onto his 2nd ow after having returned home for 3 years first. ow 1 seemed to have been like his first long term gf (age 13-20) and his 2nd ow seems to be a bit more like his 2nd space filler gf. I think the 2nd gf was only there to help him deal with the loss of his first gf (who he cheated on) because he had planned to marry her. He often admitted to the 2nd gf that she was like the Eagles song that has lyrics about wanting and needing someone but never loving them.
I have always felt like H is grieving the loss of his first gf but more specifically, the loss of the man he thought he was until he cheated on her. 1st gf sounded very strong and sure (similar to ow 1) and 2nd gf sounded a lot more needy, which is like ow 2. This round of MLC is lasting longer and I think it is because ow 2 won't let go but ow 1 did.
Gf 1 sounded a bit like me - strong. Ow 1 was selfish, which looked strong. MIL is strong. FIL is a bit like H but H wasn't really that close to him. No foo issues to speak of which is why I probably thought/think that H's replay is about his early relationships which took up his formative teenage years. He was heavily influenced then his gf so its like he is having a do over of that time.
The very interesting thing is, H has recently found out he has another sister from his fathers previous relationship (before MIL). The thing is, FIL knew about it and kept the secret fort 52 years. That's got to affect the fabric of a family. H is now not the only secret keeper and not the only one to have had an affair because this new sisters mother was in a relationship with another man when she got pregnant to FIL. It will be very interesting to see how that sinks in to H and how it changes the fabric of his soul.
Regarding the adoration from the ow. I believe that changes too and is often what brings about the end of that relationship. H's ow was all accepting at the beginning. She called H "her sexy drunk man". I mean really!!. Now, she doesn't want to date a married man (in other words get a divorce). H told me this and said that he'd suggested to her that it was a bit late for that. This is a standard that I hold and it is accepted and admired by my H. This is a standard that she is now trying to hold and it is being scowled at. The ow can't suddenly start making the MLCer feel bad about their choices or standards. That is not the position she was hired for. She either has to put up with the mediocre crumbs she was happy getting at the beginning or get out. The crumbs at the beginning probably felt better because he wasn't looking over his shoulder at me. I am betting she is feeling the difference now which is why she is trying to sure things up with him a bit. DOH!
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Regarding the adoration from the ow. I believe that changes too and is often what brings about the end of that relationship. H's ow was all accepting at the beginning. She called H "her sexy drunk man". I mean really!!. Now, she doesn't want to date a married man (in other words get a divorce). H told me this and said that he'd suggested to her that it was a bit late for that. This is a standard that I hold and it is accepted and admired by my H. This is a standard that she is now trying to hold and it is being scowled at. The ow can't suddenly start making the MLCer feel bad about their choices or standards. That is not the position she was hired for. She either has to put up with the mediocre crumbs she was happy getting at the beginning or get out. The crumbs at the beginning probably felt better because he wasn't looking over his shoulder at me. I am betting she is feeling the difference now which is why she is trying to sure things up with him a bit. DOH!
Fascinating stuff, h&f!
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I'm just musing and what's posted below are some of my own opinions and conclusions 'for the moment'. It could change tomorrow.
I think I’m interested in this topic for a couple of reasons. First,,,as part of my healing and letting go journey I need to find some understanding, compassion and then forgiveness in order to shut the door once an for all on this painful period in my life. Otherwise, the ‘what the hell happened’ of this time in my life might always occupy some headspace whether I like it or not.
The second part is just plain and simple curiosity. It’s the biggest mystery of my life - the wtf happened and why? If I don’t need to know but just accept it, then fine,,, I do accept. But I also want to know and understand because that’s simply my nature. I love a good mystery. It doesn’t mean I am still emotionally attached, just curious. Like Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking were curious about the workings of the universe. They didn’t cry in their pillow every night about it but they loved a good mystery and pursued it. I have a psychology background so it’s natural I would be curious about the workings of the human mind especially when I have had a front row ticket to a lot of the goings on and the great damage caused. But unlike Einstein or Hawking, I don't plan to make a career of it.
For me and my h,,, the dynamic between us has absolutely changed and likely forever. We’ve both changed and even though there may be a kernel of nostalgia about the life we once shared, and I know it’s gone forever. It’s doubtful if the current dynamic between us would even support a friendship in the future. But I still dwell on what was because it was good, and my therapist says I don’t need to understand it all but I do need to find compassion and forgiveness of my H to end the thoughts that always seem to be nearby.
To answer the discussion question…. I think the affair does both - it hinders and helps but at different stages. Someone in MLC is someone that cannot engage in introspection to work through what ails them. That leaves external solutions. I don’t know why that external solution has to be a romantic relationship when its a parent they have the unresolved issues with, but that’s what seems to be the case. These MLCers meet someone who shares many traits of the parent with the most conflict. It’s true in my H’s case. His ow is hot and cold. More cold when around other people, almost like she doesn’t want to let on to anyone how much she is into him, but when alone she often makes him feel like he’s the only man in the world.,,, as long as he does what she expects of him, and from what I've heard it's a hit and miss endeavor. So this is the aspect that is similar to how it was with his mother. She was quite dismissive of him, emotionally cold, emotional cruel, emotionally manipulative and so is his ow. To this day he is a conflict avoiding people pleaser and always has been from a young age. Craving his mother’s attention and barely getting a taste of it because she withheld it frequently and unpredictably. This is why his ow can keep him hooked - by being exactly the same way.
Is this how they choose their mlc partner then? Or is it really because the ow is simply available as we often hear, or is it because they can recreate an unhealthy dynamic that needs fixing? And this person also needs to be available because I think that part of the equation does need to be true. Maybe it’s a mutual need to recreate some dynamic that fits for them both?? idk… In this sense I think the relationship does help them in their crisis. If they can only deal with issues externally, is there any other choice that through an unhealthy relationship? A healthy relationship would not work because the original conflicted relationship was not healthy.
Many people grow up with some major or minor conflict with one or both parents. Dealing with the conflict means standing up for yourself, laying down boundaries to your parents who may not have treated you so well, and refusing to take any more abuse from them. It takes great courage and emotional strength to do that with your parents but once done you can move forward with some kind of relationship peace. If you manage to do that before you reach mid-life then you may not need a substitute down the road in the form of ow/om during an MLC.
If you couldn’t do that with your parents, then a substitute in the form of ow/om may appear so you can have another stab at breaking free by standing up for yourself, laying down boundaries and refusing to take further abuse. This is their chance to resolve the conflict - by breaking free from the emotional bonds. So they need the ow/om to get this done. They pick them so they can find the emotional strength to break free from them. They don’t always succeed but stay entrapped and this is when the relationship with the AP holds them back from their journey. They get stuck here because they can’t find the strength to break free.
I think the fact that ow/om are personality disordered is no accident, in fact it may be a requirement. Some of the most damaged adults were raised by personality disordered parents. To recreate that dynamic obviously a similarly disordered person is required. These are not easy relationships to get out of but neither is it easy to break free from the dysfunctional parent relationship either. If the ow/om relationship didn’t match closely enough then it wouldn’t be recreating the dynamic and it would then be easy to say bye bye to the AP but the original issues would remain instead of be resolved.
So the MLCer gets stuck in the AP relationship when they fail to grow in maturity and emotional strength, just like they failed to do with the parental relationship they had conflict with. They can’t fix the relationship or the dynamic but they must find the strength to pull away and make peace with it, otherwise MLC may continue until they do.
Personally, I do think the affair is absolutely necessary in a MLC. Without it what is the alternative external solution for those who can’t do it internally? Believing this is true can give me some comfort knowing that the crisis really wasn’t about me or the marriage. It also may lead to some compassion for the MLCer who unconsciously sets out to fix things but just can’t get there. But I believe they did try through the ow/om albeit unconsciously to them and painfully to us. If they could have chosen the outcome from the beginning of their MLC, I wonder how differently things would have turned out. In my h’s case, I believe I know the answer. In the early days,,, he was very aware the decisions he eventually made were not the ones he wanted to make. He was so scared and clung to me like a drowning rat to a life boat. He wanted so bad to not be drawn further into this R with the AP and said so many times but his strength was no match for the pull and eventually he let go and gave in from what may have been emotional exhaustion. He has a life of sorts now with OW but she's in control just like his mother was once in control and he does what he knows from earlier patterns to gain her fickle approval. His new life is nothing like it was or could have been if he found the strength he needed to break free. And he knows it. He tells me in various different ways. So I have found some compassion for him and his struggle through MLC. Next is forgiveness and once I’ve got that down…. I can let go too. And stop ruminating about wtf happened and just live and enjoy my own new life. I don't know who can help him now but it sure isn't me. I doubt he is even aware of the gilded cage he's in and the similarity to his past, so he likely doesn't want help either. He's doing his best to make the most of the life he's got now likely knowing that it's not as good as he once had. But that pull to fix the past is still strong so it may be a decent trade off to him until one day he makes steps to emotional mature and gain enough strength to fight back and break free.
All this above is just mho fwiw and is a conglomerate of all I've read and absorbed along the way since BD. If I'm repeating it here it must mean it makes sense to me at some level otherwise I would have forgotten it by now as I have with so much else I've read. Regardless it doesn't mean it's anything more than a bunch of personal thoughts. I am always open to opposing thoughts and theories about the mystery of MLC.
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MLCers have far more than an affair, they live, or even marry OW/OM.
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Not ALL MLCers have "far more than affairs ". Mine did not. He never moved in with her when it would have been the easiest thing to do. He rented a room. Obviously, he never married her . S&D ? Her husband had an affair...never left home. Acorn ? Same thing , never even left home. I am not sure why you say that as if it was fact...it is not .
Totally hinder the crisis
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I disagree. She plays a part in the resolution of buried trauma . I am not sure if it has any influence or impact on how fast or slow any of it goes. BUT, if it is true , that the vast majority of MLC men have affairs ( if not all of them) then there is a reason or purpose for this that we cannot possibly understand or explain unless we are a JUNG expert. But if she is "necessary" etc ...to move thru trauma and FOO issues...then the sooner the better. Not sure if those words reflect what I am trying to say. We know that they can get "stuck" anywhere in the tunnel, which would impact the length of this crisis.
Not all high energy MLCers have affairs.
It is factually accepted the by far men in MLC have affairs . I am not sure there is any point or statistics that prove " wallowers" have more affairs than "high energy MLCers" or visa versa. ALL of them in crisis are more likely than not...going to have affairs . Fact.
affairs aren't of much use. They also don't seem to be of any, if much, use for a MLCer.
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As much as I would love this to be true , it simply is not. There is far FAR more evidence, professional writings, research, explanations to prove your "opinion" incorrect and based on your experience only. Where is the evidence or proof that this is true ? It is not .
I am still to know a real life MLCer that has tried to work any issues with OW/OM.
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Wow. You would have no idea whatsoever what goes on between 2 people in ANY relationship...unless you are a fly on the wall. All that happens is "subconscious " ..a process of change and resolution that is deep inside an individual that is in some internal war or crisis. It is not surface conversations in any way shape or form . It is a process of individuation and personal awakening that cannot be seen or altered by another person. It is a far deeper individual process ...not a joint venture that they can "work on". These are 2 broken people ..one of them in a deeply painful transition. It is a mystery that we cannot understand unless we have been in that place...
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Personally, I do think the affair is absolutely necessary in a MLC. Without it what is the alternative external solution for those who can’t do it internally? Believing this is true can give me some comfort knowing that the crisis really wasn’t about me or the marriage..
Brilliant !
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Thanks for all you've written in the last few posts Barbie, I agree 100%. The affair is such a painful part for every LBS but without it, there may be no way back for the MLCer.
I do wish there was an easier way for our loved ones to get through this but having a good understanding of why the affair is necessary and that we were never the problem, is a good start to having a compassionate understanding while the crisis goes on.
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To answer the discussion question…. I think the affair does both - it hinders and helps but at different stages. Someone in MLC is someone that cannot engage in introspection to work through what ails them. That leaves external solutions. I don’t know why that external solution has to be a romantic relationship when its a parent they have the unresolved issues with, but that’s what seems to be the case. These MLCers meet someone who shares many traits of the parent with the most conflict. It’s true in my H’s case. His ow is hot and cold. More cold when around other people, almost like she doesn’t want to let on to anyone how much she is into him, but when alone she often makes him feel like he’s the only man in the world.,,, as long as he does what she expects of him, and from what I've heard it's a hit and miss endeavor. So this is the aspect that is similar to how it was with his mother. She was quite dismissive of him, emotionally cold, emotional cruel, emotionally manipulative and so is his ow. To this day he is a conflict avoiding people pleaser and always has been from a young age. Craving his mother’s attention and barely getting a taste of it because she withheld it frequently and unpredictably. This is why his ow can keep him hooked - by being exactly the same way.
Is this how they choose their mlc partner then? Or is it really because the ow is simply available as we often hear, or is it because they can recreate an unhealthy dynamic that needs fixing? And this person also needs to be available because I think that part of the equation does need to be true. Maybe it’s a mutual need to recreate some dynamic that fits for them both?? idk… In this sense I think the relationship does help them in their crisis. If they can only deal with issues externally, is there any other choice that through an unhealthy relationship? A healthy relationship would not work because the original conflicted relationship was not healthy.
Many people grow up with some major or minor conflict with one or both parents. Dealing with the conflict means standing up for yourself, laying down boundaries to your parents who may not have treated you so well, and refusing to take any more abuse from them. It takes great courage and emotional strength to do that with your parents but once done you can move forward with some kind of relationship peace. If you manage to do that before you reach mid-life then you may not need a substitute down the road in the form of ow/om during an MLC.
If you couldn’t do that with your parents, then a substitute in the form of ow/om may appear so you can have another stab at breaking free by standing up for yourself, laying down boundaries and refusing to take further abuse. This is their chance to resolve the conflict - by breaking free from the emotional bonds. So they need the ow/om to get this done. They pick them so they can find the emotional strength to break free from them. They don’t always succeed but stay entrapped and this is when the relationship with the AP holds them back from their journey. They get stuck here because they can’t find the strength to break free.
I think the fact that ow/om are personality disordered is no accident, in fact it may be a requirement. Some of the most damaged adults were raised by personality disordered parents. To recreate that dynamic obviously a similarly disordered person is required. These are not easy relationships to get out of but neither is it easy to break free from the dysfunctional parent relationship either. If the ow/om relationship didn’t match closely enough then it wouldn’t be recreating the dynamic and it would then be easy to say bye bye to the AP but the original issues would remain instead of be resolved.
So the MLCer gets stuck in the AP relationship when they fail to grow in maturity and emotional strength, just like they failed to do with the parental relationship they had conflict with. They can’t fix the relationship or the dynamic but they must find the strength to pull away and make peace with it, otherwise MLC may continue until they do.
Personally, I do think the affair is absolutely necessary in a MLC. Without it what is the alternative external solution for those who can’t do it internally? Believing this is true can give me some comfort knowing that the crisis really wasn’t about me or the marriage. It also may lead to some compassion for the MLCer who unconsciously sets out to fix things but just can’t get there. But I believe they did try through the ow/om albeit unconsciously to them and painfully to us. If they could have chosen the outcome from the beginning of their MLC, I wonder how differently things would have turned out. In my h’s case, I believe I know the answer. In the early days,,, he was very aware the decisions he eventually made were not the ones he wanted to make. He was so scared and clung to me like a drowning rat to a life boat. He wanted so bad to not be drawn further into this R with the AP and said so many times but his strength was no match for the pull and eventually he let go and gave in from what may have been emotional exhaustion. He has a life of sorts now with OW but she's in control just like his mother was once in control and he does what he knows from earlier patterns to gain her fickle approval. His new life is nothing like it was or could have been if he found the strength he needed to break free. And he knows it. He tells me in various different ways. So I have found some compassion for him and his struggle through MLC. Next is forgiveness and once I’ve got that down…. I can let go too. And stop ruminating about wtf happened and just live and enjoy my own new life. I don't know who can help him now but it sure isn't me. I doubt he is even aware of the gilded cage he's in and the similarity to his past, so he likely doesn't want help either. He's doing his best to make the most of the life he's got now likely knowing that it's not as good as he once had. But that pull to fix the past is still strong so it may be a decent trade off to him until one day he makes steps to emotional mature and gain enough strength to fight back and break free.
This is it! You've cracked the code! Obviously, therapy would be a much better solution than an affair but therapy is not an option for MLCers so the affair becomes a necessary part of their attempt to heal. But, it also extends the crisis because the AP does everything possible to prevent the MLCer from healing. It's best for the AP to keep the MLCer just as they are at BD.
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No, Barbie, not all. However, it is rare the MLCer who has an affair and does not leave and live with OW/OM as seen on HS, and in my case, real life.
My view, and the view of all real life MLCer I know who had OW/OM is that they were not solving anything. They had a crisis and an affair because they felt old and wanted to capture lost youth. Their affair sorted nothing, only brought them more problems, the loss of their marriage and LBS, them feeling like rubish, etc.. Which is the same as in HS, most here will never reconcile, most of our MLCers will lost marriage and LBS.
I don't see, and has never seen, MLC the way many here tend to see it. I see it as a result of stress, anxiety, depression and fear of aging/losing out.
I know the Jungs' theories. That is how I arrived to HS by googling Jung + MLC. The theories are very beautiful, poetic even, but they are just that, old theories that are not possible to prove and that certainly do not match what every single real life MLCer I know who got involved with OW said to me. It also does not match Mr J's "I only had now to do this" or my wallower's cousin despair of being old (at 37, Mr J was 36 when he left) and wanting a new life and wife. My cousin never left, never had OW.
After my cousin hit rock bottom I spend a very long time going with him to my friend who his a psychiatrist. All my cousin mentioned was age, he was 37 and stil didn't had this that and those, that was his problem and why he become depressed and in crisis.
You experience is different than mine. I am still to see a real life whose affair was of any use. I don't know a single one. The only use was make them lose their marriage and LBS.
I believe what the former MLCers told me. I have no reason not to. Just like people on HS believe people who have had a MLC and post about it. Since the real life MLCers I know spoke about their crisis and their reasons, I would say they know what they are talking about. They had no reason to lie. If anything, they may not want to talk about. They were very open about it.
Have in mind I had a MLC myself. For me was no individuation, no deep issues. There was stress, depression, anxiety, made much worst by my going out and about and going up and down hill like a mad woman. Being quiet would had been a much better option as well as had been given anti-anxiety meds even before Mr J left when my anxiety was already over the roof. I solved no problems. I have been in that place. I know a bit how it is like.
If my own experience and the experiences of real life MLCer I know do not match the view many have on HS, there is nothing I can do about it. It is mine and these people's experiences.
What good did the affair brought you and your husband? He was gone for 6 months because you kicked him out, as been back for years and you still stuggle with his affair and MLC. Reading your threads there does not seem a single good thing brought by your husband's MLC or affair.
Since most will never reconcile and the main reason tends to be the affair, exactly what good did the affair served?
How does OW/OM helps when MLCers spend years on end, over a decade even, having OW/OM, or several OW/OM and still remain in Replay? If OW/OM were to be of help, certainly the MLC would be shorter.
I think LBS like to make it all far more complicated than it is because it allows them to avoid, or try to avoid, a very simple fact, our spouse choose to become involved with someone and totally stop caring about us.
MLC has nothing to do with the marriage or the LBS. Still does not change the fact the affair does not help. Be it the MLCer's crisis or the chances or reconnection or reconciliation.
Also, forgiveness and the affair and all the rest that comes with MLC are different things.
The affair is such a painful part for every LBS but without it, there may be no way back for the MLCer.
The affair is usually the may reason why there will be no reconnection or reconciliation. I am not talking only about HS members, but people in real life as well. It is the affair who prevents the MLCer from coming back to the LBS because the most LBS will not want the MLCer, mostly because of the affair.
I do wish there was an easier way for our loved ones to get through this but having a good understanding of why the affair is necessary and that we were never the problem, is a good start to having a compassionate understanding while the crisis goes on.
There is. Don't get involved in an affair. If you (the MLCer) do, you (the MLCer) have to be fully ready to accept the consequences of the affair = for most never to reconcile or even to reconnect. If people think it is worthy to lose the LBS, so be it. However, all real life MLCer I know who lost marriage and LBS do not thought it was worthy. We are not the problem.
OW/OM are not always personality disordered. Our MLCer is, while in crisis, often far more personality and/or mood disordered.
I find it interesting you guys are so cool with the affair being so, so necessary, yet, several, if not, most of you, are deeply upset and disturbed by the affair. If I think something is absolutly necessary I am not going to be upset or disturbed by it.
P.S. If the affair was truly necessary for MLC/the MLCer all MLCers would need to have an affair. That is not true, some do not have an affair. They still have a MLC and come of it. Often faster than the ones who have one, or several affairs. And, of course, the MLCer who do not have an affair do not have to deal with the issues the affair causes.
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As Brain says, I suppose that is one of the hindering factors. The relationship was created to meet the needs of two folks at the time it was forged....so if the MLCer ever starts to recover and needs to stop running, their needs will change and the dynamic of the relationship would need to change too. I guess in some cases it does and in others it either ends or the MLCer gets stuck in it and wears a new mask.
Makes you wonder too I suppose why they were drawn to us and what we represented and represent now that they are no longer the same person in crisis or even after their crisis? I think my h valued my honesty and courage and kindness and optimism...a lot of the Babe stuff he didn't have...probably loved my father for the same reason i suspect. It made him feel safe and it was who he wanted to be probably. Until he didn't or couldn't. I've always felt that part of his hatred for me is that subconsciously he felt that I failed him in some way, that I/we didn't keep the demons away forever. Not rational or fair I know but weirdly makes sense. And perhaps he feels that ow either does that or that she likes his demons or shares them or understands them...idk. But it makes sense too that he can't see me without seeing a mirror of who he was vs who he became and that would be pretty uncomfortable. But I guess that the affair is a place to either hide the demons or bring them out to play....still nothing to do with us really bc they were never our demons. I remember on one of the MLC checklists there was something about the MLCer seeing us as part of themselves as opposed to a separate person in our own right...perhaps the affair is similar, just a different part of themselves? I guess it helps if that enables them to explore and choose who they are independently of either us or the AP....but hinders if they simply transfer the dependence from us to the AP. Makes me wonder sometimes if they are really capable of loving anyone - as I understand love - at all whether us or the AP. I suppose that is part of their challenge too in working out who they are really when there is no one else around....just as we LBS often are forced to do.
Maybe too why some of us painfully detach and find enough good love (for ourselves and them) to let them go with love and respect while they rage and ignore and spew and blame and complain often for years after they apparently have what they said they wanted....perhaps they carry us with them for a long time...or see us as the guardian in some way of part of themselves. Idk. It is all very odd though isn't it? Don't you find yourself longing for the days when love and fun and joy seemed MUCH easier? ::)
As Anjae says though, there may be some common script but not all MLCers are the same so logically the affair may serve different purposes. Our sample sizes individually are necessarily different and my experience is not identical to someone else's bc our MLC spouses are also unique individuals. And yes too, for many LBS, it breaks something and makes the situation much worse and even for the MLCer can make things worse in the sense that it brings other obligations or costs or practical barriers to things they are half-heartedly trying to keep as an option b or adapt to fit their new circumstances like relationships with their kids. And yes too, the simple truth - putting all the complex speculation aside - is that our spouses chose to discard their marriages and old lives in order to get whatever they felt they were getting from ow/om. Varying degrees of investment maybe....but when they made that choice, they didn't love us or care about the impact on anyone else or value their marriages or old lives. They wanted something else....and usually if not always to burn every bridge.... time and karma will show them I suppose if that turned out to be a good choice or not. For some, maybe it will be? Idk. Or maybe like most LBS, they will find a way to make new lemonade from lemons :)
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Makes you wonder too I suppose why they were drawn to us and what we represented and represent now that they are no longer the same person in crisis or even after their crisis?
What makes a 17 and an 18 years old drawn to each other? They like each other. We also were similar in our tastes and interests and Mr J was not a drinking party kid like most 17 years old teens. We are also attracked to each other, physically speaking.
To me it is faily pointless to spend time thinking what draw to kids to each other.
What I represented: I was "the love of my life, my best friend, my lover, the person who he created many things with, including several groundbreaking ones". He told me this when asked him that very question in early 2008 after OW1 was no more. He also add "but that is all in the past". What do I represent to his crisis self? Someone he wants to get rid of, not matter the means. Never mind he got rid of me, or rather I got away and come home, over a decade ago.
Mr J and I were as dependent of each other as any couple should be. Independent enough, but interdependent enough for things to work. In a relationship, no one can be 100% independent. He was far more dependent of OW1 for some things and of OW2 for others than he ever was of me. He put the legal issues on OW2's hand and depended of her to take care of his legal matters. He depended of OW1 to provide saccharine adolation, a thing his depressed self loved, but that his real self detest.
The AP to me is merely the person that was willing. Also the person that, for some odd reason, our MLCer ends up trusting with decisions that should only belong to our spouse. Never wasted much time with Mr J's OW1 or OW2. None of them helped his crisis. Then again, he also didn't do a thing to help his crisis. And, in his cases, if OW1 and OW2 did not help, his MLC lifestyle and friends hindered the whole thing big time.
Or maybe like most LBS, they will find a way to make new lemonade from lemons :)
Since most marriages will not reconcile, the after crisis MLCer will have to make new lemonade from lemons. Or maybe strawberry lemonade. :)
Another thing I find interesting, RCR created HS with a sample size of one, her husband. HB start writing about MLC with a sample size of two, her husband and herself. They're considered MLC "gospel". Yet, several of us have far bigger real life sample sizes than RCR or HB, yet, what we say the real life MLCers we know told us and/or our own experience, is often dismissed because it does not fit HS main narrative. Cleary and logically, one cannot take from granted a sample size or one or two and totally discart bigger sample sizes.
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I really love these discussion points because my view changes. When I first saw this thread I was thinking “nope Ow is nothing like Clingtons mum. Clingtons mum is kind caring and loving with a heart of gold. Her whole life was devoted to her kids. Ow is a completely obsessed nut job who still acts like she’s in a teenage relationship” but the more I read the more I change my view.
Clingtons dad was a very flirty kind of man. I’m not sure he ever was unfaithful to his mum but I know it’s well spoken about, so no hidden secret, that Clingtons dad had a bit of a crush on one of Clingtons mums friends. And it was always the joke that looks wise, these two women were polar opposites. It’s clear Clingtons dad loved his mum very much. However he did have a crush on a woman who was polar opposite to his wife. Ow is polar opposite to me.
Clingtons mum was and is a deeply loving mother. Whatever she did her kids were always at the forefront of her mind. She loves with everything she has. Clingtons father was away a lot with work. He would be away a few weeks. Home again. Away again. Home again etc. And when away his mum probably tried to make up for his dad being away. Then when Clington was 15. His dad suddenly died. And I think from this point on, Clington became a spoilt brat as MIL would let him do whatever he wished because she was probably trying anything to make him feel better as his dad had just died. This whole thing NEVER left. Clingtons mum has ALWAYS been the fall back plan. The plan B. His attitude is very much “Oh mum will help me out”. Clington left his girlfriend before me. And needed to finish paying the bills. He didn’t have the money. So MIL went over and gave her the money. Me and Clington wanted to move into our house but the deposit was more than we saved up. MIL to the rescue. Clington lost his job and we couldn’t afford the rent. MIL to the rescue. Clington wanted a new career as a truck driver. Which means he needed a new drivers license and lessons etc etc. Costing over £3,000. MIL to the rescue. Clington wants to learn to ride a motorbike. MIL to the rescue.
When me and Clington first got together, I was 18. I was young and in love. So I devoted almost everything to him. I would write gushy Facebook status’s about how much I loved him. I would always upload pictures of our days our together etc etc. The feeling was mutual and Clington did the exact same back to me. Then I got pregnant with D7 and naturally my gushy status’s were no longer about Clington. They were about D7. My focus went from him to her and then subsequently her sisters.
Then MLC struck. And I couldn’t see the resemblance of Ow in MIL. However I do now.
One month into their relationship. Clingtons car broke. MIL was away on holiday and miraculously he had the money to fix it and some extra. He even took me and D2 for dinner with the spare cash. I laughed! From what I can see Ow gushes about Clington. There was even a point where he sent her a snap chat selfie and she screenshottes it and uploaded “how amazing does my man look”. I noticed Ow commenting on his pics on Instagram “my boyfriend looks amazing” and I think he got off on that. That someone like his mother, was completely all about him.
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There's a lot of comments I want to respond to here but I am on my phone so I am not quoting. I want to thank brain for the reenactment article. I can see my husband reenacting his childhood from several angles mentioned in the article simultaneously and ow plays a role in that from several angles. I also see that aging issues and childhood issues are not mutually exclusive as causes and manifestations of mlc. My husband explicitly acknowledges aging issues. Yet his behavior screams childhood issues, and he refused to recognize that. Mlc operates at a conscious and unconscious level. That Anje acknowledges aging issues but not childhood ones does not mean she necessarily experienced something devoid of childhood issues
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Another thing I find interesting, RCR created HS with a sample size of one, her husband. HB start writing about MLC with a sample size of two, her husband and herself. They're considered MLC "gospel". Yet, several of us have far bigger real life sample sizes than RCR or HB, yet, what we say the real life MLCers we know told us and/or our own experience, is often dismissed because it does not fit HS main narrative. Cleary and logically, one cannot take from granted a sample size or one or two and totally discart bigger sample sizes.
Anjae, very true. This is what I meant when I talked about feeling that there was a time when older timers like myself needed to step back so those coming after had the space to make their own theories and express them in ways that made sense to themselves and a new generation of LBS'S.
For example, over 4 years ago I wrote posts about one of the purposes of the OW from my perspective. Now I read another generation expressing many of the same thoughts with up to date references and wording.
As a second example, I wrote many years ago about part of the purpose of MLC for both parties was to grow up and mature. Now another thread is discussing that.
I'm not angry none of the current posters referenced me. I'm thrilled to see they are thinking and progressing towards healing and making sense for themselves of this mess. That's what is important.
In time, just as we did, another generation will come to see the folly of putting too much stock in a very base theory that has not been adapted to newer developments and additional evidence, including larger sample sizes.
Each person gets the message only when they are ready to receive it. Ready has all kinds of variables including when the person is emotionally stable and mature enough to hear it and when its relevant to their own situation.
For me where I am now, the hero worship and some of the constant buttressing of discussion with early writings seems immature. But that's about where I am now. Where the poster is, is a different place, and where I once was, so I try to have patience and plant an idea that may flower at a later date or if not, that's OK too. Ego isn't involved.
It's like my post to Thundarr using more existentialist rambling examples. He got what I was saying in seconds of reading it. I used an approach tailored to him. It's OK if no one else got it because he did and we had quite a long in depth private set of fruitful discussions with many results.
Your observations are just as valid as anyone else's and are part of the body of study and evidence. The seeds are planted. Now patiently allow them to grow for you never know who will be the next generation that will add to your points.
We sometimes forget Rome wasn't built in a day and it's lonely at times being a lone voice in the wilderness. Been there and done that. But my time came and went. It's others time now.
Lp
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LP, do you happen to have a link for the following? If not, I shall go look for a needle in the haystack when I have the time.
For example, over 4 years ago I wrote posts about one of the purposes of the OW from my perspective. Now I read another generation expressing many of the same thoughts with up to date references and wording.
As a second example, I wrote many years ago about part of the purpose of MLC for both parties was to grow up and mature. Now another thread is discussing that.
Added later:
MLC theory is just that. A theory. It is based on personal observations and anecdotes. Hardly objective or scientific. Besides, you see what want to see. Humans are very adroit in cherry picking in general, to suit our subconscious agenda.
To take the theory as gospel truth and extrapolate the same or similar travel path and/or outcome as seen in RCR, HB and Conway’s cases, is perhaps naive at best, delusional at worst. Just my opinion.
When does a theory become a quasi-religion one believes and invest trust in? A question I asked myself often, especially when I was despondent and wanted to hang onto some hope.
Sorry, Anon, I got off the original intent of the thread.
There is probably a thread regarding the veracity of MLC theory somewhere...
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SHE is the only one that can do this ...NOT a wife. The wife has been put in a spot of protection...from him . Now, I wept thru this entire conversation and dismissed most of what he said ...because what sh%t is this ?
This is more or less what my H told me in the beginning. He needed a slave, a servant, someone to put up with his nastiness (his own description). He didn't want it to be me. He respected me too much and really it is clear he was trying to protect me from his own demons (which were manifesting themselves in the form of his father. Sure, you can say it is a twisted way of protecting me but definitely OW gets the short end of the stick in that regard. I at least could stand up to monster when he was at his worst. She had to put up or shut up.
I just wanted to say Barbie too that you really sound like you have come a long way in understanding what is going on with your H and I hope that brings you some relief from all the mental turmoil you have suffered from.
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The ow can't suddenly start making the MLCer feel bad about their choices or standards. That is not the position she was hired for. She either has to put up with the mediocre crumbs she was happy getting at the beginning or get out. The crumbs at the beginning probably felt better because he wasn't looking over his shoulder at me.
I agree with this 100%. I have seen the same.
As for the question that started this thread, I think saying that the MLCer must get involved in another relationship is like saying someone who was hit by a car and killed had to be hit so that they would die. Everyone dies. That doesn't mean we have to die a certain way for it to happen. It makes me very uncomfortable when people talk about the "purpose" of MLC. Yes, the MLC has its causes and effects that we can observe. That does not mean it is something purposeful.
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SHE is the only one that can do this ...NOT a wife. The wife has been put in a spot of protection...from him . Now, I wept thru this entire conversation and dismissed most of what he said ...because what sh%t is this ?
This is more or less what my H told me in the beginning. He needed a slave, a servant, someone to put up with his nastiness (his own description). He didn't want it to be me. He respected me too much and really it is clear he was trying to protect me from his own demons
I hope quoting worked on my phone. I say the same about Clington. I’ve never had monster from him and I had a row with him where we argued and I said “you don’t respect me” and he told me “that’s where your wrong your probably the person I respect the most”
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Well I got monster, but the difference was I could stand up to monster and get away with it. Monster would just tell OW if she didn't like it, she could leave. That her purpose was to be under his shoe (just as his father said to his mother or so I have been told by his mother). He very rarely responded that way to me.
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I like LPs point that our own posts add to the legacy which is there for others coming behind us. Some discussions are repeated and challenged and built on too as LP says.
All of us LBS are far from objective of course and that must skew our perspective sometimes when as Acorn says we cherry pick what we want to see....also part of the process. And some of us may have little information about our spouses life, perspective or ow/om. Most of us come here trying to find an explanation for our spouses not just leaving us or having affairs...those things are painful but not abnormal...what we struggle with is HOW they leave us, how they become so different, why their behaviour seems to get worse or more extreme no matter how we respond and why our life suddenly feels invaded by insane soap opera stuff or a raging irrational spouse that goes on and on. Often I think we FEEL that something is really weird, more than can be explained by just someone having an affair or no longer loving us....and that brings us here.
The baseline writings of RCR and HB and other info on depression et al are a starting place....and then each of us learns as we go and reaches our own conclusion about what happened in our lives over time. There is a comfort but perhaps also a risk in assuming that any one take, any one story, any one example necessarily translates directly into our own experience....that is part of the winnowing and balancing as we detach and learn. And also imho part of the great benefits of vets posting with the perspective of time and less emotion. I have learned a lot from reading old threads but it is also true that there were times when I was ready to see things differently that I could not earlier.
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I’m finding this really interesting
Barbiedoll - what a post, thank you for sharing that, I always read your thread but reading this condensed version was so emotional
I really don’t believe my MLCH has any childhood traumas that he needs to work through, he’s had a pretty charmed life, but I think that means he hasn’t developed any coping skills, so when MLC depression hit he behaved out of character ( the affair ) and now cannot face himself
His ow is similar to many described here, she gives him absolute adoration, because she wants to be part of his interesting life. I always appreciated my H, we couldn’t have children and we always did everything together and he knew how much I loved him, but after the loss of my mum, which I think affected him more than he realised and made him consider his own ageing, and my long term illness kicking in, which he uses as the reason he had the affair, he states he missed me and was bored because I was ill 😳 ow gave him her full attention and the rest is history. It’s strange though, my H always said he didn’t like that he felt like I had him on a pedestal, I don’t think I did, I just appreciated him and having such a lovely relationship, but ow’s adoration must have filled a space that I didn’t because I was ill
I think now she is just an easy path that helps him avoid himself. I’m confident their relationship won’t last ( even though it’s been many years ) because I think deep down he blames her and hates her as much as he hates himself, I feel like I think he feels like he ‘deserves’ to be with someone who isn’t great. I’m sure once he finds his strength he will end it, but I don’t think he will ever have the strength to return to me, he hates what he’s done to me. But, for now, the affair with ow is an easy option that enables his avoidance
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“It’s strange though, my H always said he didn’t like that he felt like I had him on a pedestal, I don’t think I did, I just appreciated him and having such a lovely relationship, but ow’s adoration must have filled a space that I didn’t because I was ill “
From a ‘depth psychology’ perspective, the opposite may be the truth - that your H doesn’t consciously recognise: it is perfectly possible that he is projecting; that he views you as belonging on kind of pedestal (idealising you) and when you fell ill, you showed that you are not superhuman and may be as weak as the next person. This unconscious disappointment leads to devaluation. Now if it is in purpose.
In addition, a lot of people have charmed lives and their early years were less than optimal in child development terms. You have no way of truly knowing what his earliest months were like. As parents it is inevitable that we all unwittingly let our children down in ways we don’t recognise .
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Barbie I found your post painful to read- the trauma & abuse your H experienced would undoubtedly have caused some deep wounds that may never heal
Reading others perspectives on role/purpose of ow and the way MLCer treats them obviously made me reflect on my situation. I don’t have insight into that relationship apart from bits that the kids share and what I can see on the surface as H has never spoken to me about the relationship in any kind of detail and we are pretty much no or dim contact for some time. But from what I can see H treats her pretty well- in fact puts her on a pedestal. He seems to be doing all the same things with her as he did with me. He’s just replaced me with her.
The biggest difference is that with her he can feel adored and he knows however much he lowers his standards and morals, in his mind he will always be better than her or not as bad as her. He can be someone else. He can be someone who is the opposite of the man he was before....someone who craved the need to be needed and loved and therefore someone who did everything to please others and fit the role he was expected to. He’s basically gone to the gutter and surrounded himself with rats so he can be king of the castle or gutter.
That stemmed from childhood. He wasn’t allowed to rebel and had to do what was expected of him and be perfect. There was no overt abuse (as far as I know) and he was brought up very privileged and somewhat entitled. He wasn’t brought up to deal with adversity or conflict or any other important lessons in life. However he was brought up in a family in which he didn’t ever feel good enough and wasn’t respected or heard. The only way he could be noticed was by being the ‘perfect’ son/ brother and doing whatever was expected of him. Until middle age hit and he imploded.
With me he again tried to fit a role. I respected him and appreciated him and showed him mature love. But I had standards. He knows I would not put up with the way he is acting now. I was brought up to have an opinion and to express it, something he once loved about me. During this crisis he can no longer handle that and has chosen someone who is broken and has no morals or standards so he thinks he can be whoever he wants with her. He’s full of low self worth. It’s clear in my situation that he projects all goodness on to her and all badness onto me- hence why I get all of monster. Until the mask slips and he sees her and himself for what they truly are. Ow in my situation has an agenda and until her agenda is fulfilled she will play the role of adoring and doting ow and put up with it all...after all it’s still better than what she’s had before. So low self worth on both sides makes that relationship one based on need and not love.
I’m not convinced he working anything out in that relationship and think it’s purely based on addiction and a need to avoid himself and his demons. Ow doesn’t resemble any relationship with his parents. What she represents is pure rebellion and the opposite of someone who he should be with according to his family. It’s like the moral radar or switch is turned completely off.
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Nerissa makes a good point. I read something somewhere that someone who is sexually abused as a child on average waits 30 years before they tell anyone. Not to say he was necessarily sexually abused, but it does show how there is always the possibility you don't know the trauma he went through.
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I just remembered another comment I wanted to make. Not sure who made the remark earlier in this thread, but someone said something about how they are looking for someone that reminds them of their parent and then with time they outgrow the need to have someone like that. I just wanted to point out that sometimes they may want someone like that (my H told OW he wanted someone like his mother) but that person doesn't actually fit the mold perfectly and that can lead to the breakup once they realize that OP is not what they fantasized. And it may be a superficial characteristic that they fit. In my H's case, it was literally just one word that OW said in response to him that his mother used to say to his father to just get him off her back. Seriously, just one word. My H wanted to hear this word from me and I flat out refused because it was demeaning. In his language it is a word used normally by an inferior person to their superior. My H has told me on more than one occasion that hearing this word and another word are more important to him than ANYTHING. I grilled him on this, he asserted it was more important than anything in his life. Well I think any of us can think of thousands of things more important than a word but for him that was numero uno. That doesn't mean though that OW will be like his mother in other ways. So they may latch on to one similarity but it won't necessarily be a comprehensive fit.
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MLC theory is just that. A theory. It is based on personal observations and anecdotes. Hardly objective or scientific. Besides, you see what want to see. Humans are very adroit in cherry picking in general, to suit our subconscious agenda.
This. Or one seems what the examples and the words of the examples one knows in real life. If they all point to one thing, that is what ones has as example/sample size, it to another thing, something else, etc. Some may have different types of real life examples.
To take the theory as gospel truth and extrapolate the same or similar travel path and/or outcome as seen in RCR, HB and Conway’s cases, is perhaps naive at best, delusional at worst. Just my opinion.
This 100%
When does a theory become a quasi-religion one believes and invest trust in? A question I asked myself often, especially when I was despondent and wanted to hang onto some hope.
I don't know, but it seems to had become a bit so on HS.
It is obvious people haveMLC for different reasons, and the reasons vary from MLCer to MLCer. There is a MLC recognisable process/script, but what drove the person into crisis can be, and often is, very different from MLCer to MLCer.
The depression part I think no one disagrees with. It is part of MLC, regardless of the reason for MLC.
Mr J solved nothing with OW1. He also did not work on anything with OW2. Maybe if he gets to OW3 he may. OW2 is no more. She stop living with him October 2018. He as since moved from where they used to live and lives somewhere else.
I don't have a clue if OW1 or OW2 had any role, or represented something to Mr J. One of the few things he said about OW1 was that "she was what he needed now" and that "he wanted to try and make it work with her". It didn't last long in the open. Maybe he spend 10 years trying to make it work with OW2.
He is still a mess, he is still in High Replay. OW is not the main driving force of his MLC. However, OW/the affair/living with someone else/divorce court cases are all reasons that hindered him and that made it very, very hard for a reconnection, let alone a reconciliation.
I think there are too many theories on the role of OW/OM. No one can prove a single one of those theories. Phsycology is not a science and a lot of what is used on HS still comes from the Jungs and the Freuds. Very old stuff that many therapists and psychiatrists have long put to rest.
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But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together.
Ah!!!! I was wondering about this for weeks..... this is the best explanation I've seen. Makes perfect sense. Thanks Nerissa!!
Makes sense to me too...and that perhaps even more likely that we LBS become sufficiently different as a result of this experience that we no longer want what they might have to offer even if they do try to reconnect.
100% spot on.... This whole situation perpetuates CHANGE. If you navigate this journey with a forward-facing, forward-moving direction, there's a far greater chance your paths will never cross again in an intimate relationship.
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Heads up.... it's a very long post thanks to just catching up now after posting a day ago.
A lot of thoughts here and I've commented on a lot of them. It's resulted in a super long post but I am thankful for the many replies to my original question. Do I know the answer yet? Well.... I'm still very strongly leaning toward the affair helps the MLC journey but it's in ways we cannot see or understand. Whose to say if a MLC takes so long because they are stuck for many years in an affair or if they would be even longer coming out of MLC without the affair? It's one of those questions that can never be answered because we will never know what the alternative path would have yielded.
From MBIB:
Obviously, therapy would be a much better solution than an affair but therapy is not an option for MLCers so the affair becomes a necessary part of their attempt to heal.
I don’t know about this Brain. Therapy has been widely reported as useless to anyone in the thick of MLC. They simply are not open to it. If they were, would they really be in MLC? No idea, but just I wonder.
,,,it also extends the crisis because the AP does everything possible to prevent the MLCer from healing. It's best for the AP to keep the MLCer just as they are at BD.
This may not be any different than the unhealthy original conflict with whoever that was (parent?). The AP may be exactly who they need to recreate that conflict, regardless of how much they prevent their eventual healing. It’s a lesson they need to learn and master - getting free from it. So does the affair really prolong the crisis or just force the MLCer to face that original conflict. Without doing that,,, they may not resolve anything.
From Anjae:
My view, and the view of all real life MLCer I know who had OW/OM is that they were not solving anything. They had a crisis and an affair because they felt old and wanted to capture lost youth. Their affair sorted nothing, only brought them more problems, the loss of their marriage and LBS, them feeling like rubish, etc..
Surely the reason for MLC is not this simple. I feel old and I would love to turn back the clock in many ways but I haven’t had an affair nor a MLC. I accept my reality … what makes it different for a MLCer that they can’t do that and need an affair? What is different between them and the rest of us that do not have an MLC?
I don't see, and has never seen, MLC the way many here tend to see it. I see it as a result of stress, anxiety, depression and fear of aging/losing out.
How much stress, anxiety, depression does one need before launched into a MLC? Most of us here have had a few lifetimes worth of this and some do have their own MLC, but from what I can tell, most do not. Again, what’s the difference between us and them? Fear of aging/losing out…. that’s definitely part of MLC but it’s far from the whole story.
Since most will never reconcile and the main reason tends to be the affair, exactly what good did the affair served?
The goal of MLC may not have anything to do with reconciliation and there may be a lot of good the affair served. We are constantly told that we or the marriage are not the cause of the MLC. The goal of a MLC, supposedly, is personal growth and resolution of old buried unresolved issues. The marriage really has nothing to do with this so we can’t say that anything that happened during the crisis (including the affair) had anything to do with the marriage and therefore cannot have anything to do with it’s reconciliation either, once the MLC is over. That doesn’t mean the affair had no value in aiding the resolution of the MLC just because the MLCer did not come back to the marriage. Hard as it may be for many of us to hear, the point of MLC is personal growth which may mean leaving the marriage behind for good.
The affair is usually the may reason why there will be no reconnection or reconciliation. I am not talking only about HS members, but people in real life as well. It is the affair who prevents the MLCer from coming back to the LBS because the most LBS will not want the MLCer, mostly because of the affair.
Yes, the LBS may shut down any attempt at reconciliation because they don’t accept the affair and don’t understand the complexity of MLC which affairs are typically a part of. BUT…does that necessarily mean the affair had no purpose in resolving the crisis? Perhaps it did,,, maybe for sure it did,,, but the LBS doesn’t care anymore. Doesn’t mean the crisis was a complete waste because reconciliation didn’t happen. Without the crisis, the MLCer may have died a slow emotional death because of the issues that remained buried. What’s worse? A healed MLCer without a marriage? Or an intact marriage with a person who continues to suffer with unaddressed buried issues?
I find it interesting you guys are so cool with the affair being so, so necessary, yet, several, if not, most of you, are deeply upset and disturbed by the affair. If I think something is absolutly necessary I am not going to be upset or disturbed by it.
This is partly why I opened this discussion. If it’s totally necessary then I’m far less likely to be deeply upset or disturbed by it and I may find that compassion and forgiveness that is part of the final letting go I’m desiring. I want to find that compassion and forgiveness. It would be harder to find that if the affair was totally unnecessary and served zero purpose in the grand scheme of MLC. I would find that offensive enough that compassion and forgiveness would be a lot longer coming than if the affair was a necessary aspect of resolving the MLC.
P.S. If the affair was truly necessary for MLC/the MLCer all MLCers would need to have an affair. That is not true, some do not have an affair.
The reports consistently say that 97% or more of MLCers will have an affair. The 3% that don’t are wallowers or simply unable to find a willing affair partner. If they could, they would be in an affair too. That’s more than enough for me to wonder if the affair is necessary to resolve (or attempt to resolve) a MLC. In fact, these figures alone lead me to believe that the affair is necessary.
The AP to me is merely the person that was willing.
This is far from true in my h’s case, anecdotal as it is. There was a woman who was begging him for some kind of relationship post BD despite the fact that he was married, a mess, and having a MLC. He couldn’t get far enough away from her.
Another thing I find interesting, RCR created HS with a sample size of one, her husband. HB start writing about MLC with a sample size of two, her husband and herself. They're considered MLC "gospel". Yet, several of us have far bigger real life sample sizes than RCR or HB, yet, what we say the real life MLCers we know told us and/or our own.
These MLC ‘legends’ may have started their writings with such a small sample size but over time they have worked with several dozens (hundreds?) of people living with an MLC spouse. Their writings would have evolved to include the knowledge gained from their research and with direct contact with LBS’s. As far as ‘gospel’,, what they say is not surprisingly quite similar to other professionals who have spend considerable time researching MLC. When it comes to sample size it matters little whether the sample is 1, 2 or several dozen. They are all pathetically small and no conclusions can be accurately drawn from them. To be anything but anecdotal reports, not dozens, but hundreds of accounts are required. According to HB anyway, and maybe even RCR,, they may have dealt with such numbers.
From Treasur:
The relationship was created to meet the needs of two folks at the time it was forged....so if the MLCer ever starts to recover and needs to stop running, their needs will change and the dynamic of the relationship would need to change too.
Agreed, and I expect the affair ends when this happens (or any relationship) when dynamics change significantly enough.
I guess in some cases it does and in others it either ends or the MLCer gets stuck in it and wears a new mask.
If there is a new mask, then they are stuck. That new mask carries them for awhile. Eventually it will crumble just like the mask with us crumbled.
I remember on one of the MLC checklists there was something about the MLCer seeing us as part of themselves as opposed to a separate person in our own right...perhaps the affair is similar, just a different part of themselves? I guess it helps if that enables them to explore and choose who they are independently of either us or the AP
I’ve read pretty much the exact words to describe co-dependant relationships which are usually unhealthy. If we were co-dependent when our spouses abandoned us, the pain would be far worse than if we were not. If our spouses often feel ‘one with the AP’ as opposed to a separate person as is usually the case, then that is also a co-dependant relationship and they will suffer the same pain when it eventually ends. The extreme pain is because we feel a part of ourselves is lost when the relationship ends.
Makes you wonder too I suppose why they were drawn to us and what we represented and represent now that they are no longer the same person in crisis or even after their crisis? I think my h valued my honesty and courage and kindness and optimism...a lot of the Babe stuff he didn't have...probably loved my father for the same reason i suspect. It made him feel safe and it was who he wanted to be probably. Until he didn't or couldn't. I've always felt that part of his hatred for me is that subconsciously he felt that I failed him in some way, that I/we didn't keep the demons away forever. Not rational or fair I know but weirdly makes sense. And perhaps he feels that ow either does that or that she likes his demons or shares them or understands them...idk. But it makes sense too that he can't see me without seeing a mirror of who he was vs who he became and that would be pretty uncomfortable.
Some of these older psych theories make perfect sense to me in a lot of what you say here. Theories are not gospel and are never an answer to all the questions but there are times they fit so well it’s hard not to adopt them as the most likely explanation of what happened, at least in some situations. FWIW,,, there is no definitive theory currently or in the past. Unless a theory can satisfy every loose thread, it remains a theory. And the theory of today is still just that,,, a theory, because there are still many loose threads. Having said that,,, I do have my fav theories that seem to explain more than the other ones about what happens during a lot of MLC situations. They are my fav theories because they often explain more than the other theories. If that changes, then so would my fav theory change.
From GIG:
Mlc operates at a conscious and unconscious level.
So true - way more unconscious than conscious. That may be true of all of us and our behaviour. The unconscious mind is far more in control of all what we do, unlike what we would like to believe.
It makes me very uncomfortable when people talk about the "purpose" of MLC. Yes, the MLC has its causes and effects that we can observe. That does not mean it is something purposeful.
If not purposeful, then why do so many MLCers follow the same script? It’s like they are driven to reach ,,, something,,, they don’t know what but they are driven none the less. Reading the threads of those who stuck it out with an MLCer to the end (BB Help, Stayed, etc), their spouses seemed to come out of MLC and eventually reached a contentment that is way beyond what was possible otherwise. My own opinion, fwiw,,, all human behaviour has a purpose. We just don’t know what that is a lot of the time or even most of the time. Doesn’t mean there is no purpose because we can't see it.
From Bewildered:
I’m not convinced he working anything out in that relationship and think it’s purely based on addiction and a need to avoid himself and his demons.
This is MLC in a nutshell. Addiction is often, if not always an aspect of MLC. The addiction helps them keep unconsciously distance from their unresolved issues. Who knows exactly what he is working out in that relationship with ow? Most of the growth in ‘beneath the soil’ and unseen to us, especially since we are not usually in the front row seats anymore. We just don’t know what is going on in their heads. Reconciled lbs spouses also went through many doubts over the years because they simply could not see or assess what was happening in the mind of their MLCer. Many MLCer's come through eventually and to some LBS's it seems to happen suddenly because the bulk of the growth is not visible from our view.
From Nerissa:
But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together.
Yes, I suspect this will be true for most of us and why reconciliations are rare. They change, we change, and the odds the dynamic stays the same between us during the MLC years is incredibly low. I feel my own change (never mind his) and it seems so unlikely the dynamic can ever be recreated that brought us together in the first place and I’m no longer sure I want that either. We are different and changed and maybe what we need in our own future is not what worked for us in the past so it’s fitting we move on without each other as painful as it is. It would be far less painful though, if I could understand, feel compassion and forgiveness, and love despite all the horror of the MLC years… and let go because that is what may be best for both of us despite the once perfect marriage I thought I had. Tbh, as much as I want this in my future, I do struggle with the final letting go. If my gut instinct, or any ‘knowing’ led me to believe we should be together after MLC then I would fight against it. Instead, my gut instinct strongly tells me there is no future, nor should there be if I am to grow as I should, and to let go and get on with my life without him.
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It can be that simple. Age was the reason given by the real life MLCers I know. Even people who do not have a MLC often tend to have an affair at midlife because they were feeling old and wanted to gave it one last go. Not everyone will have a MLC, feeling old will not have the same effect on everyone. Also, remember some MLCers, Mr and my cousin being some of those, were 36/37, not in their 50's. My cousin did nothing but to say how old he was, how his life was fineshed, blah, blah, blah.
The difference is people who do not have an affair did not thought an affair was a good idea/was going to solve a thing. Or they thought it was, but didn't had the energy for it (usually wallowers). There are also people who have had a MLC and never had an affair. Me, Ready2, others on HS, my cousin, etc. MLC does not always include an affair.
I don't know how much stress, anxiety and depression does it take for crisis levels to be reached. It will be different for each person. However, there is no MLC without stress, anxiety and depression, regardless of the reason for the crisis itself.
Again, the difference is each person is different. Each person reacts to things in a different manner. I am one of them as well as one of us. I know a bit of being one of them (my crisis was short, mild and did not include destroying a marriage and having an affair) as well as a bit of being one of us.
Why do some smokers have lung cancer and other's don't? They are different people.
True, there may be a lot of good the affair served. So far, I am still to meet a real life MLCer who ever said the affair served any purpose. They all regret it and said they gained nothing from it, with the exception of kids for those who had them with OW. I would venture those guys should know what the affair served, or did not served for.
I am still to see most HS members explaining what good did the affair served. As a general rule, the only thing the affair brings is huge problems, including for the MLCer. It leaves the MLCer with even bigger problems than before the affair.
Hard as it may be for many of us to hear, the point of MLC is personal growth which may mean leaving the marriage behind for good.
Is it? If so, why was it not for me, my cousin and the real life MLCers I know who have shared their story? My cousin is the same person he was, I am worst in a few ways, better in another, real life MLCers are either who they were or worst than before, maybe with one or two exceptions. The exceptions tend to be the ones who did not destroyed a marriage or had an affair.
The marriage and spouse have nothing to do with MLC, regardless of the reason for MLC. If someone has a MLC because they are afraid of getting old, that has nothing to do with marriage or spouse.
Reconciliation hardly ever happens. It has very little to do with MLC because it is a rarity. Yet, what is the aim of HS? Reconciliation. The rarest of things.
The goal of a MLC, supposedly, is personal growth and resolution of old buried unresolved issues.
Supposedly. For those who believe it has anything to do with old unresolved issues. I don't believe it, real life MCLers I know never mentioned any old buried unresolved issues, they mentioned age. Also, the standard view of MLC is that it is age related.
BUT…does that necessarily mean the affair had no purpose in resolving the crisis?
I can only go with the people I know in real life. The ones who had an affair or went as far as marry OW, say it only made things worst. Mr J no longer has an OW. He is still in MLC. MLCers who do not have affair solve their MLC. If the affair was necessary to solve MLC, MLCers who had no OW/OM would not be able to solve MLC.
The MLCer does a gigantic emotional death with MLC. I'll go back to my cousin and myself. We solved no emotional buried issues. Nothing. We also didn't had a gigantic emotional death because none of us had a super destructive, many years long crisis. He had it emotionally worst than me, his depression hit horrendous levels.
What’s worse? A healed MLCer without a marriage? Or an intact marriage with a person who continues to suffer with unaddressed buried issues?
What is worst and actually terrible is LBS being told MCLers will be a better version of themselves and will want back (the last tends to be true, most MLCers want back, but there will be no point, the LBS has moved on). Worst is LBS lives being turned up side down and often damaged for life because of the MLCer's crisis. It is kids being damaged for life because mum or dad had a MLC. The damages caused by MLC are too big. Whatever growth a MLCer may have does not come close to the damages, pain and hurt to all involved.
I don't care that much about the MLCer, I care about the LBS and children.
I don't see what forgiveness has to do with the affair serving or not serving a purpose. Forgiveness is forgiveness. It is not related to purpose or outcome. Forgiveness is also not related to reconciliation.
In essence, most LBS and kids suffer enormously for nothing. Most will end up without the marriage, often the life they had, etc. But are always told that, yes, MLC has some amazing higher purpose and so does the affair. What purpose? The MLCer will be filled with guilt and regret, several will try to kill themselves, some will kill themselves, pretty much everyone will not have the marriage. To me, it is nothing but useless suffering.
"Reading the threads of those who stuck it out with an MLCer to the end (BB Help, Stayed, etc), their spouses seemed to come out of MLC and eventually reached a contentment that is way beyond what was possible otherwise"
The contentment may have more to do with age and with the peace that comes out of crisis that has ended. Any crisis, not just MLC. It does not mean there was any purpose. On the other hand, my cousin does not have that contentment. He was probably too young when his MLC ended. He is just his old self. Several of the real life MLCers I know also do not have it. I have it, but may have more to do with having looking after my maternal grandmother for 8 years until she died than anything else.
We may not be able to see the purpose, but surely the person having the crisis should now if there was, or there was not a purpose. Also, how did people who never had a MLC know if there is a purpose? Because someone who had a MLC told them? Probably. But that is the thing, not all MLCer tell the same reason for their MLC.
If you, or anyone, aks me, or my cousin, what was the purpose of our crisis the answer will be "I don't know". My cousin said has much to the psychiatrist who helped him after he reached rock bottom. And I really don't have a clue what was the purpose of mine. The way I see it, it only served to leave me emotional. Emotional meant not doing what needed to be done.
Their writings would have evolved to include the knowledge gained from their research and with direct contact with LBS’s.
Barely. The articles are pretty much the same they were all those years ago. The main difference has to do with MLC time frame that has been increased.
"But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together."
One more reason why standing is not such a great thing aside from a grace period. However, the reason for so few reconcilations is, as seen in HS, and in my case real life, usually the LBS not wanting the MLCer back. The MLCer tends to try to come back. HS focus a lot on standing, the improved MCLer, but very little in talking about how people will change over the years and how far apart most LBS and MLCer will be once Replay is over (MLCers tend to try to reconnect/come back at the end of Replay or Liminality).
I think at first we all have quite a romantic view of MLC and how the MLCer will turn out. As the years go by, many of us start to see things differently.
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For those who believe it has anything to do with old unresolved issues. I don't believe it, real life MCLers I know never mentioned any old buried unresolved issues, they mentioned age. Also, the standard view of MLC is that it is age related.
I agree that there can be no one reason for an mlc; that feeling old is a common reason for an affair and that the concept that mlc has a ‘higher purpose’ romanticises what is, in reality, a maladaptive response to perceived personal Circumstances.
I do think though that the reasons for maladaptive behaviours are due to a mixture of innate temperament and ways of being learned from birth, beginning with the way we are mothered in the first days of our lives. By definition, in order to behave in maladaptive ways, people have to lack self awareness and be unconscious of why they do what they do.
The only chance of uncovering this is effective and good quality psychological help. How many want that or are in a space where they can lower their defences enough to learn? We all having coping strategies. They serve us well in early life but perhaps by by middle age, don’t work so well and we break down in some way, especially in relationships where both parties are impacting each other in patterns which may not be optimal if explored with a good therapist.
If some one psychologically whole and healthy wants to end a
Relationship, there are ways of doing it. Mlc Bomb drop is not a healthy one. Neither are ongoing affairs while remaining married. That why therapists, after a while and after a period of mourning the loss , like to see the spouse moving to formalising the separation because it simply isn’t healthy for the individual to be stuck like this. It stunts the growth of the spouse because it is not possible to develop and individuate and grow while we are embroiled in a bad relationship. We just cannot give sufficient attention to ourselves and our own lives while in this state. it doesn't mean mourning is completed - mourning is cyclical and can always return, but less acutely. But long term, unresolved mourning Is always deleterious for the person experiencing it. That doesn’t mean we should be pushed into things before we are ready - that’s pretty much impossible anyway - we have to be ready psychologically in order to move forward and we will do it in our own time.
Also mention has been made several times about the mlc person seeing us as part of them. This comes from the theory of Object relations and is about the way we internalise important figures in our lives. Those with poor internal boundaries in this respect tend to see those close to them as part of them rather than separately. It is an indication of a personality adaptation and if sufficiently present is an indicator of a personality disorder since all personality disorders have in common poor or undeveloped Object Relations. It’s why the advice here is to separate emotionally and detach fully so that the distinction between them and us is clear.
A marriage counsellor has as their client the marriage. A therapist has the person in front of them. The interests of the individual and the saving of the marriage may not truly coincide in reality.
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Interesting discussion!
I agree that there can be no one reason for an mlc; that feeling old is a common reason for an affair and that the concept that mlc has a ‘higher purpose’ romanticises what is, in reality, a maladaptive response to perceived personal Circumstances.
Likewise, romanticizing A as having a ‘higher purpose’ was MY maladaptive response to this act of betrayal. Jung obligingly helped me in this endeavour by giving me some excuses... ::) It was just a Bandaid for me and hindered me from seeing the reality of H’s actions and our situation. A straw I was grasping, if you like.
Purpose? What purpose?!
Oh, how I wanted to see some purpose in his betrayal to make me feel better. I wanted to think that he was working through some mommy/daddy issues and guess what? I saw what I wanted to see. I wanted to justify it for him. Well, for me, really. My H couldn’t be such a bast***, right? There must be some ‘higher purpose’ in all this, I thought. Yeah, right!
What do I think now?
Affair did not serve a PURPOSE, which implies that it was oriented toward FUTRE resolution of MLCer’s issues. Rather, it was the RESULT of the PAST, in that he lost his mind, soul, integrity, self control and his moral code (becoming base and despicable), thus leading him to make the biggest mistake in his life that inflicted indescribable pain on the people that loved him and destroyed trust, marriage and family. It was a totally selfish act in true MLCer form.
Whatever he may have gained through A, I did not see or hear. In fact, being caught out and severing A started his forward movement.
The reason he had A? He said ‘human connection, someone to talk to’. He apparently felt so alone. No wonder, he had cut off everyone from pre-BD life, including me, the kids, FOO and friends. Everyone. His solution to that was to have A! Higher purpose? No, a very low one.
He has expressed several times his incredulity at the fact that he was capable of committing such dastardly act. He was a blubbering mess when he shared that with me. He also told me he never was/is better than anyone else and that his pride has been shorn away. That was a lesson learned, nothing to do with a ‘higher purpose’.
My take on his A? While it lasted it only hindered H’s journey. ‘Help’, it was not, in any shape or form.
Other MLCers may have a higher purpose in affair. Maybe. I don’t know. It’s all conjecture anyway if we do not hear about it directly from the mouth of MLCer himself.
My 2 cents’. Talking about myself and my situation only.
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It makes me very uncomfortable when people talk about the "purpose" of MLC. Yes, the MLC has its causes and effects that we can observe. That does not mean it is something purposeful.
If not purposeful, then why do so many MLCers follow the same script? It’s like they are driven to reach ,,, something,,, they don’t know what but they are driven none the less. Reading the threads of those who stuck it out with an MLCer to the end (BB Help, Stayed, etc), their spouses seemed to come out of MLC and eventually reached a contentment that is way beyond what was possible otherwise. My own opinion, fwiw,,, all human behaviour has a purpose. We just don’t know what that is a lot of the time or even most of the time. Doesn’t mean there is no purpose because we can't see it.
If like I do, you believe that MLC is the result of childhood issues, then it still does not have a purpose. Let's say I shove you really hard, or I stick my foot out in front of where you are walking, you are likely to fall down in both cases. Now, maybe you were an athlete competing against me and I wanted to hurt you so that you could not beat me in a competition. My action had a purpose that served me, but the effects it had on you had no purpose for you. Now, let's imagine as a result of your retirement from sports you wind up changing careers and invent the next Amazon, then you might spin my tripping you as having a "purpose" to make you move on to bigger and better things, but that's an unforeseen result, not something you purposefully chose.
Now, if MLCers are acting as they do as the result of various FOO issues and childhood abuse, it's like they were shoved or tripped and then 30 years later fell down.
I say all this with the knowledge that my H considers OW a tool, and in a lot of ways she is exactly that. She has a purpose to him, but that's different from the crisis itself. The MLC itself is a consequence of things that happened to the MLCer that they themselves could not control or choose. The actions they choose during the MLC have a purpose to them but the mental anguish that pushes them to undertake those actions is a result of others' actions, not a purposeful thing they chose themselves. They are simply a delayed reaction to actions that took place decades before.
We need to distinguish between things that happen for a purpose vs. those that happen as a consequence.
When the FOO play a pivotal role in your spouse's MLC, such as my H's or Watcher's for example, when the FOO themselves plays an alienator role, then you can see that they did not choose this in a purposeful way, that it was forced on them and they were too weak to resist in the face of the FOO.
If a person comes out of MLC a better person with a better marriage, then I don't think it is because they purposefully chose the "right" path but because they learned from choosing the wrong path and as a consequence learned from their mistakes. And remember, this forum is mostly for those who actually want to save their marriage. Most MLCers are probably kicked to the curb and divorced with no way back to the LBS. So the number that actually reconcile is probably even a smaller percentage than those who reconcile among forum members.
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Affair did not serve a PURPOSE, which implies that it was oriented toward FUTRE resolution of MLCer’s issues. Rather, it was the RESULT of the PAST, in that he lost his mind, soul, integrity, self control and his moral code (becoming base and despicable), thus leading him to make the biggest mistake in his life that inflicted indescribable pain on the people that loved him and destroyed trust, marriage and family. It was a totally selfish act in true MLCer form.
I agree Acorn. Like all the other maladaptive behaviors, the "affair" is just one more thing they use to try and fill the void inside of them.
As far as I can see, she did not make him a better version of himself or help him to heal those wounds that darken his life.
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From Nerissa
From a ‘depth psychology’ perspective, the opposite may be the truth - that your H doesn’t consciously recognise: it is perfectly possible that he is projecting; that he views you as belonging on kind of pedestal (idealising you) and when you fell ill, you showed that you are not superhuman and may be as weak as the next person. This unconscious disappointment leads to devaluation. Now if it is in purpose.”
Hmmmmm, that’s got me thinking 😊thanks for posting your thoughts on my situation Nerissa, I don’t know much about psychology so I’m not sure if this is relevant but when we met 30 years ago I was pretty fragile, a very close friend had recently committed suicide and it obviously affected me, H was incredibly understanding and caring, and I have suffered with poor health throughout the marriage, so I don’t think we were ever in a place where he thought I was superhuman. I think since BD he has now placed me on a pedestal, and I think he thinks he’s no longer worthy, but to be honest, I really don’t know as we don’t have much contact other than work
From Nerissa
In addition, a lot of people have charmed lives and their early years were less than optimal in child development terms. You have no way of truly knowing what his earliest months were like. As parents it is inevitable that we all unwittingly let our children down in ways we don’t recognise .
You’re right, I’ve no idea about his childhood, there could be stuff, but it’s always “appeared” that his family are stable and I haven’t ever seen any red flags. I think the root of his MLC depression was finding out that he couldn’t have children in our mid 30’s. We did talk about it a lot but I think this was a cloud that he carried and didn’t truly deal with at the time. ow is mid 30’s and it surprises me that he is with a woman who is at the age when she could have children. I think this is a complex issue for him that he hasn’t dealt with and could be his MLC depression issue along with ageing ?
I admit I don’t know if anything I’ve written has anything to do with his MLC, just like I don’t understand why my friend was so depressed he killed himself at 30
I don’t think I’ll ever know what happened to my H, there are only the posts I’ve read here from LBS who have had more insight from their MLCer, and the endless hours I’ve spent trying to understand and make sense of what’s happened
And I realise I’ve gone completely off the subject off if the affair helps or hinders, sorry 😊 I think in my case the affair, ow, drinking is all about escape and avoidance of facing himself ?
“From Bewildered:
I’m not convinced he working anything out in that relationship and think it’s purely based on addiction and a need to avoid himself and his demons.
This is MLC in a nutshell. Addiction is often, if not always an aspect of MLC. The addiction helps them keep unconsciously distance from their unresolved issues. Who knows exactly what he is working out in that relationship with ow? Most of the growth in ‘beneath the soil’ and unseen to us, especially since we are not usually in the front row seats anymore. We just don’t know what is going on in their heads. Reconciled lbs spouses also went through many doubts over the years because they simply could not see or assess what was happening in the mind of their MLCer. Many MLCer's come through eventually and to some LBS's it seems to happen suddenly because the bulk of the growth is not visible from our view. “
This struck a chord too
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Such an interesting and thought provoking discussion thread, Anon.
I was musing on why there is such a pull to finding some 'common' rationale about MLC. Notwithstanding that there do seem to be common often shared behaviours in MLCers at least initially. But there are differences too between individual 'case stories' it seems to me.
If I use my own experience and replace MLC with PTSD say....and put myself in an imaginary room with 100 other folks with PTSD...
There are symptoms and behaviours which would would allow me or a therapist to say yup, sounds like PTSD. If I chatted to the rest of the 100, most of us would share some say panic attacks and memory loss and nausea - to the extent that we would recognise something in common in a way that non-PTSD folks would not find familiar - but some would experience some less common symptoms say hallucinations or tinnitus. I don't have to tick ALL the symptoms to have PTSD. And the differences are about how our individual brains react and how we develop different coping reactions bc of who we are.
If we chatted together about the causes - taking a broad definition of PTSD as event/s that overwhelmed our internal and external resources - the causes would not be the same either, the trigger events. They would be big awful things about pain and loss and shock and helplessness probably but not an identical checklist. And the context that limited our internal and external resources e.g. previous mental health issues or family support or our own history would not be identical either. Or the coping strategies we tried before that did not work and maybe became part of the problem.
So, if the same therapist was treating those 100 people using a common process like EMDR, the details of the treatment would be unique for each one even if the EMDR technique was the same. Different triggering events, different self talk, different goals, different blockages...and so different paths to healing and measuring PTSD recovery. But still all fitting in the broad label of trauma and PTSD, and rewiring brains that on an MRI scan would show similar patterns of more and less active functioning. And similar enough that if I described a bit of a 'recovery' experience and how it felt, others could 'get' it and nod. And that there is an observable and feel-able difference between having PTSD and no longer having PTSD....but most of us are no longer the exact same pre-PTSD person bc of the scale of the experience yet post-PTSD recovery comes with a sense of finding yourself again.
Is PTSD 'purposeful'? Well, initially PTSD serves the purpose of your brain protecting you from trauma you cannot process. Then it becomes a behavioural and mental pattern of avoidance rooted in fear, so again some kind of self protection. Is it purposeful in the sense of a deeper meaning or some kind of personal growth? Hmm, perhaps that depends on the individual...the purpose probably evolves from survival to self protection to wanting to shed PTSD to....lots of escape/avoid stuff to what....some kind of rebuilding or refining stuff.....redefining your sense of self? Or finding a new life goal? Or reevaluating your priorities, beliefs or lifestyle? And that is assuming I guess that you realise you have PTSD, decide you can no longer live with it as it is and are fortunate enough to find the right treatment approach with a good therapist. And the PTSD behaviours will have created consequential damage - lost jobs, unpaid bills, relationships you have withdrawn from say - that you still will need to tidy up after you no longer have PTSD. How you do that will probably depend on what your post-PTSD self values and wants to do with your life.
Is PTSD conscious or unconscious? In my experience, it was both but sometimes more one than the other. Sometimes I just knew I was paralysed by fear big enough to make me vomit when a phone rang but did not know why. Sometimes I knew that I was being triggered, that it was a PTSD response but my consciousness of that did not change my compulsion to avoid or hide. Sometimes it did and I would have a momentary conscious success in managing my behaviour...often followed by an epic failure...so a cycle. Recovery involved learning more about what my unconscious was driving me towards and learning from trying different conscious ways to behave differently while EMDR was simultaneously working on my brain processing the trauma almost mechanically. While EMDR started to change my unconscious impulses, learning and experimenting began to change my conscious ones. And what does that mean for my insight into my own behaviour and responsibility for it? There were times when - even though I knew what I was doing was ridiculous, selfdestructive or irrational - the compulsion was overwhelming. You could have put a gun to my head, rolled out a panel of experts or put my sobbing concerned friends right in front of me....and it would have made no difference at all. I lived in my PTSD head which was more real. I could wear a mask sometimes for a little while. I was full of shame and despair. I lied a lot to avoid doing some things - to myself and to others - and I felt guilty and weak for doing that too but did it anyway bc the PTSD need to avoid was simply bigger. As I began in small steps to deal with my PTSD, I got a little more honest with myself first and then others. But it was often difficult to describe what it was like in my head in words....and I was often afraid that I would never be normal or like myself again, and perhaps that people wouldn't accept or like the post-PTSD me if there ever was one or be able to forgive my PTSD behaviours. Now, to be fair, I didn't do things that were actively damaging to others...but I did lie and withdraw and become very self-centred and forget things and not keep promises and was very unreliable about big and small things.
If I swap PTSD out and put the MLC word back in....I can see some things which might look a bit similar.
Some events and beliefs which overwhelmed my capacity to cope.
A compulsion to avoid that was bigger than my capacity or rational control.
A very noisy inner life and a disconnection between that and reality around me.
Lying and hiding and pretending as a coping strategy which added extra damage
A lot of guilt and fear and despair and confusion and helplessness and self-blame while life and time moved on around me, a real feeling of being lost in the world and lost to myself
It was not a positive future-focused choice, more about events and my unconscious reaction turning into a maladaptive response I got stuck in until it hurt too much to stay there and I found my way out with time, treatment and small steps which BECAME the positive future-focused choice bc focusing on that WAS the only way out. Pretty much all of the struggle and all of the change that healed me was internal and not always clear in my mind tbh, although I got some good timely help along the way.
So if I translate that into MLC, it seems to me that MLC is not a positive choice but as Nerissa says a maladaptive kind of defence mechanism. That what pulls people into it is probably some combination of life events and unresolved baggage or beliefs that no longer seem to hold water...but these are different for different people....that depression creeps up and then tips into MLC as a large,y unconscious way of dealing with how they feel. MLC as a defence mechanism has a playbook so hence the Script bits we see but bc the nub of what people are trying to escape from, emotionally speaking, is different, we see different escape versions based on that. So the affair or the job or geography or money or LBS or house or kids all play a part in the avoidance and emotions shown, but MLCers use them differently bc they are not all running from the same things if that makes sense? I suspect though that they only become a positive 'help' if or when the individual shifts to a point when they no longer want to run/avoid and then start learning from MLC experiences in order to get/feel better. Not all of my life choices while I had PTSD turned out to be bad ones; most were but not all and as I started to recover, I started to be able to pick out the good from the bad and be more conscious of why I was doing what I was doing. In my case, running away to the sea turned out to be a very good choice but it was an act of desperation and not very wise financially tbh. As I recovered, where I live has become a solid foundation to build a post-PTSD life on.....and I am the same core person now but with some different attitudes and insight bc of my experiences...I imagine that tbh an affair relationship that started as an escape could turn into the same sort of thing depending on the reality of it and your expectations. Or it could suddenly be obviously a huge mistake...so if I had not run here but happened to have run back to London or to Italy or to Australia, all options I toyed with :)
MLC is probably about the past vs the present; recovery is probably about the present vs the future. My experience of PTSD tbh would reinforce the assumption that nothing external makes any difference at all until, for sometimes not very big or clear reasons, you simply no longer can bear to live as you are with PTSD...or MLC I guess. And at that point, much as you feel broken and afraid, you will try almost anything to not be living as the person you have become and in the way you are living. It simply becomes un-doable for one more minute. But recovery also takes longer than you might think until suddenly you seem to cross a line and get some real momentum and then it moves very quickly.
Sorry if that's a bit long winded but I wanted to share the bit of insight that I have gleaned from my own maladaptive defence mechanism lol.
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MLC is probably about the past vs the present; recovery is probably about the present vs the future. My experience of PTSD tbh would reinforce the assumption that nothing external makes any difference at all until, for sometimes not very big or clear reasons, you simply no longer can bear to live as you are with PTSD...or MLC I guess. And at that point, much as you feel broken and afraid, you will try almost anything to not be living as the person you have become and in the way you are living. It simply becomes un-doable for one more minute. But recovery also takes longer than you might think until suddenly you seem to cross a line and get some real momentum and then it moves very quickly.
Well said, Treasur.
One needs to get to a point where he can not bear the person he has become. It’s the the start of climbing out of abyss. This is what I have seen with my MLCer and my LBS-self. It’s all internal. No one could help me or H. Sure, one could hear or read about it but nothing makes any difference until he/she grabs the beast by its horns and proactively do something about it.
I had regressed to an emotionally immature and helpless little girl after BD. I was disgusted with that little girl’s whimpering ways. So, what to do but grow up real quick. It was a choice, just as it was for H to climb out of the MLC abyss.
Oops, got off the topic! Well, it’s allowed because it’s Sunday, right?!
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Definitely allowed, Acorn...and hopefully we are not too far off the help/hinder topic bc we are musing I suppose on if MLC behaviour is purposeful....or if the purpose comes after it and as a consequence of it. And if the affair or indeed any of the other horrid stuff is part of the poison or part of what drives the desire for a cure.
I didn't much like my LBS self either....and the PTSD version was even more pathetic. But if I am kind to her, it is easier to see her as a necessary evil that helped me survive long enough to get to here and where I am heading next. And the post-LBS version is much easier to like. Even with her new penchant for small bursts of flavoured gin :)
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We need to distinguish between things that happen for a purpose vs. those that happen as a consequence.
Indeed. Regardless each MLCer's reason for MLC, the affair is a consequence, not something with a purpose.
Most MLCers are probably kicked to the curb and divorced with no way back to the LBS. So the number that actually reconcile is probably even a smaller percentage than those who reconcile among forum members.
They most surely are. So far, I know no real life reconnection with a MLCer who had an affair and/or left. My cousin was a wallower who never left or had OW.
Briefly, I think we could, so far, have three reasons for MLC:
1) Age/Fear of Getting Old.
2) FOO Issues/Unresolved Past Issues
3) An improper, or maladaptive behavior, towards Trauma in adulthood: divorce, spouse MLC, death of a parent, loss of job, etc.
There may be more reasons. These are the ones I manage to come up with going with HS and real life. More than one reason may be a factor for some MLCers.
My experience with panic attacks was that I did not knew it were panic attacks. I thought I was having a very bad asthma attack. So bad that Mr, who had already left, but had been in the flat that day being a total MLCer D*** had to take me to hospital. There, the doctor was like "it is not an asthma attack, it is a panic one". Me, what? :o
One needs to get to a point where he can not bear the person he has become.
This. In my case, there were people who helped me. If nothing else by making sure I was safe in my crazy, manic going out and about phase.
I had regressed to an emotionally immature and helpless little girl after BD.
I had become someone I never had been. And I was emotional rather than logical. Yikes. No idea who that person was.
If the affair served a purpose, why would out of Replay or crisis MLCers say OW/OM meant nothing? If they mean nothing they had no relevance and certainly did not help or were essencial for any issues to be solved.
The only thing Mr J's OW1 and OW2 did was to enable his MLC ways and to tell him how amazing he was. Like LP says, enabling MLCers, addicts, alcoholics, etc. does not help them, it hinders them.
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There is much more to consider than I imagined when I opened the discussion. My head hurts trying to figure the question out with all these comments. Thank you all for taking the time to offer your thoughts and opinions.
Where am I now. I don't know exactly. If I accept that my h is just a selfish sob who cares nothing for anyone but himself then my new problem is reconciling that with who I believed he was before BD. For most of us that person was nothing like the MLC person. How is it possible for him to be both the pre-bd and post-bd person? Seems a bit schizophrenic to me that he could really be both people, just not at the same time.
On the other hand, if I believe instead,,, that he was a basically good person then I have to answer the question,,
'what happened to make him not a good person'? His mask dropped? No... because he still wears it, especially with the AP.
I still think the affair has a purpose of some kind even if they feel nothing for the AP. The AP has a job to do,,, validate the MLCer, make him feel like he's special, adored, valuable, respected. That's what an AP does for a MLCer. The affair is all about how the AP makes them feel. They feel something with the AP that they cannot feel without the AP. The focus is still on them and feeling something. Nothing to do with genuine love, but only on their own emotional state and how the AP influences it. It's no wonder after a MLC they say the AP meant nothing.
Recently my h told friends he will never be happy - this after almost 2 years with his gf. She is failing to fill the void,,, the reason she became the gf in the first place.
I wish I had more energy to say more but it's been a ridiculously long day today and I'm no where near done what I needed to get done today. I have a mini-trip for a few days next week and there is always those crazy thoughts that scream at me 'the house has to be perfect before I leave'! And the yard too!! What is that all about anyway? Or am I the only one who does this?
Have a good night (or good morning for some of you)!
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I'll try to say more at another time, I just wanted to add that I do know several real-life cases where the couple have reconciled following an MLC affair.... trying to put it in one sentence, the affair may have served the "purpose" of showing the MLCer that someone else doesn't magically solve everything. And it was definitely MLC, rather than a "standard" affair in these particular cases.
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Strangely enough, I am not sure that the affair would have necessarily prevented me being open to reconciling. At least for a while. His remarriage did of course. But even without that, I think the cruelty was the red line for me and that was about so many other things than the affair. There are evidently people here who are reconciling when there has been an MLC affair so there are obviously other factors to be considered.
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The thing is, and maybe this will make reconnection/reconciliation easier for me should it happen. But during my relationship with Clington. There was no Ow. He started with Ow weeks after BD. So there was no “affair” behind my back so to speak. I somehow managed to kick him out before he started with Ow. So in some respects I feel I’m lucky because I wasn’t two timed. So to speak. Don’t get me wrong. It still hurt because it felt very soon. But I would imagine it Ow came into play BEFORE BD it would hurt a lot more.
However, when I found out about Ow. I reached out to a girl I had on my social media. She wasn’t someone I knew or had met in person but we were just Facebook friends. Bur I knew her ex and father of her kids had left (exit affair) and got with someone else. They were on and off etc etc BUT I reached out to her for advice. As it is happens this woman has become the bestest of friend I could ever have had. And so whilst I wouldn’t say I’m glad he’s with Ow, I must admit it’s a very thick silver lining that had Clington not started with Ow. I’m not sure I’d have met her. So it’s a consequence I very gladly accept.
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This is an interesting discussion.
I have a couple points or questions. One about age and the other about other factors involving prolonged affair.
There’s lots about what caused MLC & it being about age (as well as other factors=perfect storm) & replay being about going back in time to redo. My MLCer hit 40 & went nuts- BD was 7 months after his 40th birthday. Although brewing way before then. He never ever mentioned anything about aging or showed any classic signs of issues with his age- but then he was never a talker. He didn’t really act younger & his changes were more about things like his opinions, likes & dislikes etc. He is now with a much older woman- not a younger one. So although the very classic affair down not the stereotypical younger woman. Although she does not act her age. Her mentality is much younger- so perhaps she’s going through MLC at 50 herself. He is acting much younger now- but I don’t see him to know. I can just tell from what girls say & through legal correspondence. So although Ow is much older, is AD to the max- I really can’t see his mother in her. So what is her purpose? Was it just that she was available?
My other question is- if family accept and enable the affair- does it last longer? I’ve just heard Ow has met the rest of extended family & been accepted as my replacement. Although I almost cringe for his parents as either they are blind or just putting up or clearly have no morals!! It’s pretty cringe worthy as she’s sooo unacceptable. I think they’re making it easier for the both of them to carry on as if it’s the most normal thing in the world. I personally think if the MLCer behaviours (ow) is enabled it’s just like if a drug adult is enabled by being given money for drugs. It feeds the problem. So until his family say no we are not going to pretend it’s all ok & enable you anymore- we are going to do what’s best for you & face the consequences of you hating us...the affair will take much longer to breakdown and therefore prolong & hinder the crisis.
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Was it just that she was available?
Per RCR, it was that she was "willing." (Although, I suppose that means the same thing?! idk)
Everything you just said is right on the $$$.....the parents DO enable the MLC'er. Like, to have an affair and to blow up the family unit is totally "normal."
I believe that at first, they're completely mortified - along with everyone else - but eventually acclimate to everything their MLC'er does.
They slowly review *your* actions over the course of the marriage, and then make *you* out to be the villain. Because there's no way that their offspring could POSSIBLY commit such heinous acts! More projection, but now even worse - because their projection IS enabling their MLC'er to continue with all of their bull$h!te!
Just my 2 cents xxx
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Bewildered, it is possible not all MLCers for whom the issue is age related will talk about it. They may show it in their actions. Mr J did not mentioned it before he left, but after BD when OW1 was made public. His famous "I only have now to do this". This was never explained. OW? DJing? Lead a life without me? Something else? All of those? For a little while after BD he also used to say "Now I need to do this, when it is over we will go back to be a couple and lead out life. Just the two of us". By then, among angry monster and MLC crazy, he had some awareness that whatever "this" that he only had now to do was temporary. Now turned into 13 years and he is nowhere being done with Replay. He is not even near his pre-BD and right after BD self.
OW/OM is not always younger. It can be the MLCer's age or older. There are others here whose alienator is older than the MLCer. I don't know why some MLCer go for someone much younger, others for people about their age and some for older people. Aside from the ones who go for much younger people, it may not have to do with the alienator's age, but more, like in your husband's case, the person's mentality/way of being. Your husband's OW can be going through MLC herself. It is not unusual for two MLCers to get together. Or it can't just the way she is. Hard to know.
... if family accept and enable the affair- does it last longer?
Very good question. I don't know. Mr J's family was welcoming of both OW1 and OW2. OW1 did not last long in the open, OW2 lasted 10 years. Was it because Mr J's family was welcoming or was it because of the nature of their relationship? I don't know. It could be said Mr J's OWs are acceptable. Highly educated, professional, well behaved women (in the sense they are not drunks, addicts, smokers, hell raisers, etc.). FIL was a philanderer and had a steady OW. MIL never liked it. Mr J detested it. SIL didn't like it, but accepted it. That may explain why his family was accepting. It may also be Mr J sold them, as well as to OW1 and OW2 a pack of lies as MLCers often do.
Families hardly ever say they are no longer going to accept the affair. They do not want to lose their son/daughter. In Mr J's case, especially with OW2 who lasted so long, it wouldn't make much sense for his family to say they were no longer accept it. We were separated when she come along.
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I think if the FOO accepts OW/OM, it might prolong things because it may prolongs the MLCer reaching rock bottom. They are living their shiny new life and everyone seems totally fine with it, so YAY--they made the right decision. But I don't think they can carry this on forever. If they still have issues...even after they are "released" from the LBS and then the FOO accepts the new person in their lives, and yet they are still unhappy???? So what now? What is the next thing to bring about happiness now?
In my own experience, H is living a whole new life. New friends. New family. Everything is 180 different than what we had. But, OW pulls all the strings. H literally lives 100% in her world now. Which is what he did with his mother prior to me. And then when we were married there was a power struggle and he never got comfortable with it. So I acquiesced and did things with his family b/c he lacked the strength to oppose them. Even for silly things--like on Christmas for example--we had to spend 3 days celebrating Christmas with his family b/c it was their "tradition." Never mind the fact that I had a family too and maybe wanted to spend time with them. He could never articulate this to his mother. Never really grew up. Is he doing that now? Maybe. Or maybe he is just being the person he is and lacks the strength and judgment to get out of that situation. I never wanted the role of telling him what to do every step of the way. But I also never actually TOLD him what to do. Maybe he isn't and never will be strong enough to do that for himself. In this relationship with OW, he does what he is told. Maybe that is how he likes it. And if that is the case, we ere never meant to be anyway. So maybe MLC is more for the benefit of the LBS....to get away from a person who will never grow up. orrrrr, again, maybe now he is with OW, to tell his mother that he is now doing WHAT HE WANTS, and has completely abandoned all FOO traditions in favor of OW.
Just rambling. But I find it strange that he could so easily give up everything for her, when he could never break himself away from his family for 2 hours for me b/c it would upset his mother. Then again, I never made him choose.
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I’ve just heard Ow has met the rest of extended family & been accepted as my replacement.
This was difficult for me too, when my h's ow started going to see friends and family with the ow. I think though, for the most part, it's an uneasy thing for many of them. From what I've heard, his ow is not that likeable or personable so they could be scratching their heads wondering why he would give up me for her. I also believe for the most part that they are appalled at his adulterous abandoning ways and despite putting their best face forward, I think most of them disapprove but without saying anything about it. I think they are just trying to make the best of a bad situation.
Does acceptance from families prolong their R? Perhaps for awhile,, but not indefinitely. All the family support in the world won't be able to stop their R from eventually going over the cliff as most mlc relationships do.
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So maybe MLC is more for the benefit of the LBS....to get away from a person who will never grow up. orrrrr, again, maybe now he is with OW, to tell his mother that he is now doing WHAT HE WANTS, and has completely abandoned all FOO traditions in favor of OW.
;D This is good KIT. I have often thought that my life has improved in ways it wouldn't have if there was no MLC. Tough for me I had to find this out the hard way but at least I found it out eventually. :P
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I really think many if not most of our spouses are being taken for a ride. Yes they made the choices leading to being under the control of some real psychos, yes they were vulnerable and if you can bear it, deserve compassion, the damage is certainly magnified by the OW (i’m Not sure how the dynamics differ with an OM so I won’t speculate)z. The only growth/achievement is gaining the insight and strength to escape.
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I find merit in both Barbies and Anjae's posts regarding the reason for the affair. I know my xh fretted about losing hair for a long time before BD. He would put all kinds of creams and chemicals on his head and sleep with a hair bag on it at night. Seemed to take 100's of supplements too and none of them worked because as I told him, it seemed to be genetic. A lot of people in his family have thin hair or hair that falls out a lot, men and women. That went on for several years before he started lazing about on the couch for hours and hours, sometimes all night watching TV. I knew something was wrong with him but he denied it. Then he got the bright idea to start another business that was destined to fail but I was cooperative because I knew this was a last-ditch effort for him to look successful in front of his family, which wouldn't have mattered anyway because they will never see him like that. It doesn't matter if he makes a million dollars a year and owns 100 houses, he will always be a failure/less than in their eyes. I've known it for a long time but he won't accept it. A year passed and when it was obvious the business had failed, my grandmother died (who he was close to) and bam, the affair started.
Was the affair because he thought he was getting old and trying to recapture his youth? Or was it because he was looking for someone like his parents who OW is similar to in some ways? From reading their texts, she uses religion as a tool for manipulation. His mother does the same thing. Omg, I can't believe I am doing this. I'm a good God-fearing girl, you're a bad man, you're using me. You're going to go to Hell. She'd throw religion into their arguments every few days. ::) ::) ::) ::) Yeah cause he forced her to date him, a married man, sleep in hotels rooms with him, give her money, pay her rent, go on vacations, mm-hm. And his mother is actually 10x worse. He's a bad son. Always been a bad son. Never listens to his parents. Going to go to hell if he doesn't start praying. Does he even believe in God anymore? Oh yeah, I need 3000 dollars for cousin so and so's wedding, random cousin's school fees, gift for maid's uncle ;D ;D. Just nonsense. His dad does the same but not as harshly or as often and he's never financially abusive. OW also mostly talks about herself, the same as his mother. Her conversations start and end with something about her, usually one of her illnesses. She never feels good she says which I found out she has gonorrhea so I guess that may be true. She also threatened to commit suicide twice if he left her. Just an all-around nutjob. His mother calls and talks about not feeling good for hours. Takes about 20 meds a day and abuses sleeping pills. Xfil and their other sons have complained about the sleeping pill usage multiple times but she won't stop using them. So she and OW are similar in that regard as well.
Extremely self-centered people. His family will definitely not accept OW and for sure not his father. His older bro already knows what happened and said no. Xfil doesn't speak to his middle son's wife because he didn't approve of their marriage either and that was 15 years ago. He said she was a bad girl and came from a bad family. They live in the same house too. And she's the same one who helped xh have his affair so I guess xfil was right. Crazy house! But anyway, sometimes I think she hinders him. She knows when to lay it on thick. If he seems like he's pulling away she immediately talks about feeling like dying, no one loves her, her father has never loved her, her family thinks she ran away, she has nowhere to go, please don't ever leave her! Sometimes I think he needs this. He needs to be dragged through the mud and realize the grass isn't greener on the other side. Let him ruin himself financially, earn the scorn of most of his family members and look like an utter fool. Maybe when that's too much to handle he'll pull himself out of the gutter.
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I’ve just heard Ow has met the rest of extended family & been accepted as my replacement.
This was difficult for me too, when my h's ow started going to see friends and family with the ow. I think though, for the most part, it's an uneasy thing for many of them. From what I've heard, his ow is not that likeable or personable so they could be scratching their heads wondering why he would give up me for her. I also believe for the most part that they are appalled at his adulterous abandoning ways and despite putting their best face forward, I think most of them disapprove but without saying anything about it. I think they are just trying to make the best of a bad situation.
Does acceptance from families prolong their R? Perhaps for awhile,, but not indefinitely. All the family support in the world won't be able to stop their R from eventually going over the cliff as most mlc relationships do.
I wish I could be privy to people’s real thoughts about OW. It would stop me from monkey braining.
All I get is snippets of what is seen by my kids. And that is apparently she was at ease in his massive family & people spoke to her. Doesn’t make her likeable I guess & im sure more people would have been thinking WTF & he’s making a fool out if himself. Wish I could hear that as it’s what I need right now.
So another thought on what prolongs the crisis with ow....In my situation it’s me. Regardless of trying to remove myself from it- it seems their relationship thrives off the conflict with me. So H keeps creating the conflict and draws me back in when it gets quite whilst OW fuels and feeds it. That relationship seems to all be about how they team up against me- through all the legal
stuff and kids stuff. So until I remove myself completely (which I’m desperately trying to do) the relationship continues and process of crisis is prolonged.
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There seem to be three main excuses that people make here to avoid the reality of their spouse being with the ow:
1. She is helping him solve his issues and therefore there is some benefit
2. She controls him and therefore it isn't his fault.
3. You're better than her/she's mentally ill so at least I can feel superior.
You can tell yoursef whatever you want but I think in the end if you really have true compassion for your spouse then none of the above matter..
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Hmmm, makes sense to me that the more people go along with their 'new happy life' the longer it might run. But then again, family support for the m did not prevent them running so I suspect it won't keep them there if they ever start to feel that internal shift that seems to happen with any recovering MLCer.
The age thing? If we assume that MLC includes some kind of identity crisis, then it might not be simply about being younger but more about a feeling of running out of time to be a different kind of person with a different life? So for some they obviously regress to hanging around with folks in their twenties but for others maybe it is less about being a younger them and more about being a different them.
I partly agree with GiG that too much thinking about ow and the nature and role of the affair/relationship can be a bit of denial. Bc tbh one can speculate but rarely know....and it doesn't change the practical reality that it is happening. Not sure I understand your point about compassion though, GiG...perhaps you can explain a little more how you see that?
The triangle is a real thing though....and for some ow it seems very strong as a part of their story no matter what the LBS does or doesn't do, that ow is 'rescuing' the MLCer in some way bc only she knows what he really needs and appreciates him. Which is a very good reason for not engaging with ow or their relationship at all bc your reactions feed the monkeys.
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This is a really great discussion however I don't think any of it matters at the end of the day. The reality is they are gone. They have their new life that they wanted and whether or not the family accepts it now doesn't matter either because eventually their family will accept it. Life goes on and they don't want to lose their son or daughter over this so they will eventually accept it. My mil was like a mother to me for over 20 years. At first when this happened she said to xh "you really are just like your dad". She told me that I would always be her daughter. Fast forward almost three years, they all have get togethers and dinners together like one big happy family and I am out. Haven't spoken to mil for over a year.
Does the affair partner help or hinder? They've been going strong for almost three years. At this point it matters not whether it is a help or hinderance. The reality of the situation is they have built a life together and they still continue. We are out. The sooner we see that the better because we will no longer be hindered. Even if you are a stander you have to keep moving forward. If they want to catch up one day that'll be on them.
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Treasur-There was a post somewhere above from the original poster to the effect that if the relationship with the OW had a purpose, that she would be more inclined to be compassionate and forgiving of your H. My point is that compassion is something you either have or you don't. So what if the OW is pretty or ugly or nice or nasty or whatever? Does it make a difference about what you feel inside you? I think the most popular excuses people try to come up with is the OW is "controlling" their spouse. People do not want to face the fact that their spouse chose to do what they are doing and want to see him as a puppet who isn't responsible for his behavior. They would rather project the blame on the OW. In most cases to be honest, I do not see actual evidence that these OWs are controlling being presented, so really I think a lot of people here are lying to themselves.
One thing I have learned during this crisis is you are going to feel what you are going to feel. You can't will yourself to feel something you don't. Lying to yourself just will make it more conflicting internally. If you tell yourself that the MLC has a purpose, just so that you can try to will yourself to be compassionate, then you are just setting up a situation where you create cognitive dissonance for yourself.
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Treasur-There was a post somewhere above from the original poster to the effect that if the relationship with the OW had a purpose, that she would be more inclined to be compassionate and forgiving of your H. My point is that compassion is something you either have or you don't. So what if the OW is pretty or ugly or nice or nasty or whatever? Does it make a difference about what you feel inside you? I think the most popular excuses people try to come up with is the OW is "controlling" their spouse. People do not want to face the fact that their spouse chose to do what they are doing and want to see him as a puppet who isn't responsible for his behavior. They would rather project the blame on the OW. In most cases to be honest, I do not see actual evidence that these OWs are controlling being presented, so really I think a lot of people here are lying to themselves.
One thing I have learned during this crisis is you are going to feel what you are going to feel. You can't will yourself to feel something you don't. Lying to yourself just will make it more conflicting internally. If you tell yourself that the MLC has a purpose, just so that you can try to will yourself to be compassionate, then you are just setting up a situation where you create cognitive dissonance for yourself.
But it is entirely natural to use these defences to protect ourselves from information that elicits pain that we are as yet unable to manage. It’s ok to do this. But we will know we are completely through it when we are able simply to say that our spouses fell for someone else and left us. I’m Knott here yet. Compassion isn’t essential for acceptance and we don’t have to feel compassion for someone who was cruel, but if it comes it comes when we are in that space. It can’t be willed or instructed to come.
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I can't feel compassion for someone who intentionally hurts or mistreats me. I don't want to either. On the other hand, if there is no intention to do so and if there are some mitigating factors then I may feel compassion. The context matters to me. In my own situation,,, I don't believe my h did have intentions to hurt me. I was just collateral damage along the road to him selfishly finding himself.
I'm one of those who no longer puts much weight on what ow says or does to influence my h nor whether she is controlling or not. She truly is nothing in the big scheme of MLC things. If she dropped dead tomorrow he would still be a MLC wreck.
I do feel compassion for him in a detached way. It's impossible for me not to notice the many ways he is living his life in misery despite these being his choices to live this way. He can't see the forest for the trees and he is truly a slave to his ow addiction - he needs the fix but to stop needing the fix he has to go through the withdrawal and he is no where near strong enough for that. Vicious cycle so yes, I do have enough compassion for the trapped life he's unwittingly built for himself to move on to forgiving him. On the other hand,,, it would be hard to forgive him if he left and clearly has a fabulous new life that's everything he ever dreamed of. No compassion for him is needed in this case. He's fine but had to destroy my life to have that great new life - tough to find compassion or forgiveness. But that's not my h's case so compassion and forgiveness are clearly more obtainable.
fwiw, I have no sense of cognitive dissonance, nor am I trying to will myself to have compassion. I either feel it or I don't and nothing is forced. tbh,,, I think the more detached I get the less compassion I have. It's not just compassion I feel less of either,,, it's all emotions I feel less of...as I get more detached. I wonder too at times if forgiveness needs to come before compassion. idk... therapist appt later this week so I'll bring it up.
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This is a really great discussion however I don't think any of it matters at the end of the day. The reality is they are gone. They have their new life that they wanted and whether or not the family accepts it now doesn't matter either because eventually their family will accept it. Life goes on and they don't want to lose their son or daughter over this so they will eventually accept it. My mil was like a mother to me for over 20 years. At first when this happened she said to xh "you really are just like your dad". She told me that I would always be her daughter. Fast forward almost three years, they all have get togethers and dinners together like one big happy family and I am out. Haven't spoken to mil for over a year.
Does the affair partner help or hinder? They've been going strong for almost three years. At this point it matters not whether it is a help or hinderance. The reality of the situation is they have built a life together and they still continue. We are out. The sooner we see that the better because we will no longer be hindered. Even if you are a stander you have to keep moving forward. If they want to catch up one day that'll be on them.
Well, boom. There it is. ;)
Though Tyks, as true as it is......easier said than done. I know this in my mind. Wish my heart will catch up though!
I definitely agree with the IL's just accepting - whether they like it or not. That is the case in my situation. Their allegiance is to their blood, their son.
My IL's still keep in touch with me and I see them every now and then.
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Herola., I am not there yet either lol. That was my logical brain talking. I think it takes a very long time to get there, if we ever do :(
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Has there been a comprehensive thread like this on how people dealt with the infidelity? Both during and after?
I'm not there yet (or at least I don't about it know yet) but I'm trying to get my head around it and prepare....... if it can even be prepared for.
Sorry for the semi off-topic hijack, this thread is amazing and thought provoking. I check it everyday.
-SS
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Having an affair is intentionally hurting, mistreating and disrespecting a spouse. If the MLCer is being selfish the MLCer has no consideration for the LBS. Don't forget many MLCer are physically, verbally and financially abusive. Also legally abusive. Do you think they don't know what they are doing, Anon? Or that the abuse serves some higher purpose?
The affair having no purpose, the MLCer making the choice of getting involved with OW/OM and OW/OM being controlling are different issues. By the very nature of the relationship OW/OM are, or become, controlling.
The more detached we become the less feelings we have towards the MLCer because we are detached from them.
Has there been a comprehensive thread like this on how people dealt with the infidelity? Both during and after?
Not that I know of. There are hundreds of threads of people telling their story. Light and dark purple threads are of people reconnecting or reconciled.
Each person will tend to deal with the affair/living with OW/OM in a different way and, at a point, many just move on and stop caring about the MLCer. They find a new relationship or marriage.
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Having an affair is intentionally hurting, mistreating and disrespecting a spouse. Good point. If the MLCer is being selfish the MLCer has no consideration for the LBS. Don't forget many MLCer are physically, verbally and financially abusive. Also legally abusive. Do you think they don't know what they are doing, Anon? Or that the abuse serves some higher purpose? I do think they know what they are doing. What I'm not certain about is if they feel they must do it,,, for whatever reason. If there is a higher purpose it would be to serve them somehow and I'm just in the way of their reach toward it. Anything or anyone in their way is going to get kicked aside without any concern for where they land.
When I mull things over trying to find clarity or to find something that makes sense, I like looking things from both angles or sides and deciding what has any bearing and what doesn't. Analogy... lining up for a putt on the green. Most golfers step back,,, bend down and quickly study the lay of the land to figure out what they need to do to get the ball in the cup. Better golfers though,, will do that and then some. They also walk to the back side of the green and check out the terrain from that view and see things they couldn't see from the front side. Or maybe there isn't anything new to see but they have a look anyway,,, just in case. Most of these better golfers will sink the ball in fewer putts than the golfers who don't bother to take the extra look. So I'm just looking at all sides and no idea if that is even necessary,,, but doing it anyway ,,, just in case.
I was challenged to do something like this by my therapist recently in an effort to find compassion as a pre-curser to forgiveness and the final letting go. I can't find compassion unless I see that something went off the rails for him, somehow. So how does a normal, sane man just suddenly go off the rails? The answer is they don't. If they went off the rails then something wasn't right before. What was it then that I couldn't see nor anyone else could see because it was something, and that something just might lead me to understand enough to feel compassion and then forgiveness. I would question the 'going off the rails' theory with him if he seemed like a normal happy guy but that isn't what any of us see that know him.
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Has there been a comprehensive thread like this on how people dealt with the infidelity? Both during and after?
Standing,,,there may be. From the opening page of the Forum, go to the top and click on the 'discussion' bubble (immediately under 'Filter Topics Based on Prefix') and all the discussion threads will be shown. It's worth a browse through - many good discussions in there.
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Not sure I am getting you correctly, Anon. You don't know if there is a higher purpose in abuse? As in MLCers that physically hurt or even try to kill the LBS? Like Mr J, Mr LP, Mr In It and several others did?
What higher purpose is there? None that I know of, because, at least in Mr J's case, he does not remember it. He was having psychotic episoded when being physically abusive. And even if he did, it certainly did not prevent him from being abusive in other ways.
They know what they are doing. If they didn't, they wouldn't feel guitly nor would be angry at the LBS. As for if they think they should be doing. At least in Mr J's case early on with OW1, when he was still living home, he was uncertain he should carry on with the affair. He knew it was wrong, he knew he had to broke all his values to do it.
She wrote in back she also had broke all her values to be with him and that it was worthy fighting for their amazing, unique love. Was he now going to leave her? He didn't. Instead, be become more and more horrible towards me, then left. Then become one the nastiest MLCers I have ever heard of. Come mid October it will be 13 years since Mr J left. He lost nothing with his MLC. He also learned nothing. Or better, he learned that crimes pays. Big time.
Of course something went off the rails for them. It does not mean they do not know what they are doing. Or that abuse must be excused. Or that there are two sides when it comes to abuse. There aren't. There also aren't two sides when it comes to cheating. It is all on the cheater.
In Mr J's case he knew he was depressed before he got involved with OW1. He refused help. He has been depressed since. However, it does not prevent him from holding down a steady MLC job, djing, having a record show with some mates, working for a record label and now even having his own record label with a couple of mates. He is sane enough to make deals with bands/artist, to promote them, etc. He is also sane enough to move house on his own. It is not like he is on psychiactic hospital or people see anything wrong with him. They see nothing wrong with him. Granted, most do not know what he did. Still, a man his age that still goes clubbing, djing, gets drunk, barely sleeps and looks dreadful, but everyone tells him he looks amazing, so, so handsome? Right. ::)
Forgiveness is not associated with someone knowing, or not knowing, what they are doing. Forgiveness is just that, forvigeness. I also don't think it is associated with compassion.
Compassion is wasted on Mr J. The man has a good life. Why should I feel compassion for him? I keep it to myself and those close to me who deserve it.
Could it be your therapist is treating the matter as a normal affair? MLC is nothing like a normal affair. And even a normal affair falls only upon the shoulders of the cheater.
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No higher purpose to abuse and I wasn't anywhere near thinking along those lines either. They do know what they are doing, doesn't mean they have that under their control and doesn't mean they should be excused. Even I can relate to that,,, as a former smoker who attempted to quit many many times before finally doing so over 20 years ago now. Every time I lit up I knew what I was doing, wish I wasn't doing it, but did it none the less because it served a purpose (to end the nicotine withdrawal). I knew I was abusing my body, damaging my lungs, increasing the odds I'd get cancer but I still continued the abuse so I could temporarily end the withdrawal by lighting up again. If I got cancer it would be no one's fault by my own. And I maybe I would deserve to as well,, but I hope that doesn't mean I'm not deserving of some compassion if I do get cancer.
From what I can tell, my h and your Mr. J are 2 totally different types of MLCers. You often back up what you are saying a lot of the time by referring to what Mr. J did and I often can't relate because my h is different than Mr. J. He rarely monstered even in the beginning and if anything has been a bit weepy about what's happened. He's never been physical, before or since BD. He knows he was horrible in the early days in other ways (usually by his flagrant new life 'activities' with ow and other women before he and ow committed to each other, breaking values etc). He also cycles - not as rapidly as in the beginning but he is still clearly a boomerang. Clingy one in the beginning but now just a regular boomerang. So he is clearly not just a normal affair guy and this is not just a normal marriage failure. Every past relationship that ever ended in my life ended cleanly for the most part. Any relationship that was still in death throes months later, and certainly years later, just did not exist in my life until BD from my h. And,,,, the ONLY reason the marriage r hasn't ended cleanly is because of him,,, not me. His cycling, his uncertainty, his confusion, his reluctance to call it a day and say good-bye. Unlike the end of ANY previous r I've ever been in. Even my therapist knows the difference. He hasn't asked me to consider compassion because or situation is clearly not a normal split or a marriage that just died a natural and expected death.... he knows too that something is pretty sadly wrong with the man that once was my h.
For you and Mr J. maybe compassion is wasted on him because of his good life,,, but again our situations differ. My h clearly does not have a good life, he is clearly not happy, not likely ever will be happy because whatever grass he is standing on, it's always greener somewhere else.
I'm not sure either if compassion and forgiveness are related. It's something to contemplate though but will take some time. I do know this,,, if my h was living a happy life like Mr.J. I wouldn't have compassion either. There would be no point. I would only have compassion for someone who is suffering and unable to end their suffering whether that be at their own hand or anyone else's. Just like I would have compassion for a chain smoker who is in pain and dying from lung cancer. But if they are living a life only most can dream about,,, heck, there is no place for compassion in that case.
Forgiveness may have no connection with compassion but if I feel compassion I think I might have a better chance of forgiving someone that if I didn't have compassion. I'm curious if you have you forgiven Mr J or not, and why? What led you to forgive or withhold forgiveness?
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Having an affair is intentionally hurting, mistreating and disrespecting a spouse. If the MLCer is being selfish the MLCer has no consideration for the LBS. Don't forget many MLCer are physically, verbally and financially abusive. Also legally abusive. Do you think they don't know what they are doing, Anon? Or that the abuse serves some higher purpose?
The affair having no purpose, the MLCer making the choice of getting involved with OW/OM and OW/OM being controlling are different issues. By the very nature of the relationship OW/OM are, or become, controlling.
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I do not believe or accept that my husband sat down to plan a way to intentionally ( deliberately and on purpose ) to hurt me . Nor did he plan to intentionally wound his daughters...or his brothers, my parents, his grandmother ( I could go on) . Did he mismanage his own mental and emotional health? Indeed he did . Did he fail to seek help like a therapist etc ...he sure did. You speak out of 2 sides of your mouth . His internal personal crash and burn has NOTHING to do with the spouse . Zero. But now you believe it was an intentional plan to hurt them. Writing it as if it was fact...does not make it true.
The affair having no purpose, the MLCer making the choice of getting involved with OW/OM and OW/OM being controlling are different issues. By the very nature of the relationship OW/OM are, or become, controlling.
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As per my previous loooong post, I not need to repeat. The affair ( as catastrophic as it is ) had a purpose, a reason. I believe I am the very last person on this forum that would EVER come to that conclusion and say it out loud...but if I am to be honest , there was a purpose for it happening. It was about invisible forces that be , FOO trauma and ways to heal etc etc ... again, nothing to do with the LBS. Its hard to accept this concept... we want to be shallow and "factual" and see only the superficial actions of a very flawed man who has come un-done. You have to look deeper if you want to access truth, understanding and hopefully some compassion and healing.
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From what I can tell, my h and your Mr. J are 2 totally different types of MLCers. You often back up what you are saying a lot of the time by referring to what Mr. J did and I often can't relate because my h is different than Mr. J.
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Thank you Anon..this is true. You cannot use 1 MLC man ( or a handful that you personally know ) and dictate that they are "all the same ". Utterly ridiculous. .
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Because you are 100% right. You have been reduced (unwittingly) to a character in his screenplay. You are the "wicked wife", as she remains the "damsel in distress."
Rest assured that as his screenplay (read: OW) crashes and burns, you remain the queen of whole castle.
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Just need to ask how you do this Mego. It is really a very unique way of coping perhaps? How is it that your real life and the painfull situation you are in become something you continually turn into a "screenplay " or movie? How is this helpful to you , I truly want to understand . We know that we MUST deal with real life...the good , bad and ugly. Why are you insistent in living behind a screenplay ? .
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Anon, so your therapist tells you that you need compassion and you don't actually feel any so now you feel compelled to concoct a theory about the ow that allows you to feel compassion? This is a great example of how therapists create problems to solve to justify their job. Compassion is a good thing but if you don't feel it then that's okay.
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Anon, yes, your husband and Mr J are very different MLCers. My cousin who had MLC was nothing like Mr J, he was a wallower and I was a mild, mostly fun MLCer who did not broke the marriage or had an affair. Mr J is on a league only a few MLCers belong to. However, there is no shortage of MLCers that are between yours and mine. Savy's husband is another extreme MLCer who has been abusive. There are more, but I don't remember them all.
However, the basic is the same. Early on, Mr J would change between his old self, MLC self with more or less violent monster, and totally depressed man in tears. I saw Mr J cycle in hours, from normal to monster to tears, to all over again. Next day he couldn't remember a thing. It is not like he was only nasty monster at first. Mr J was the king of clingers early on. He would still be clinging if I allowed him to. He wanted me and OW, except when he wanted me dead and then did not remember his words and actions.
The months after he left, while I was still in our flat were insane. Since I come back home, he cannot touch me or come close to me. He come up with several ways of being a bully, court cases (Mr Savy and even Mr Milly do this as well), endless chatting on messenger (the good old one), e-mails, even phone calls. He was a load and remained so until I cut him off for my peace of mind and sake.
Compassion is wasted on him not just because of his good life, but because the man has not changed, not even into his pre-leaving self (bad, but better than his post-leaving self) after 13 years. He is not happy. Having a good life and being happy are two different things. Happy people do not monster nor need to get drunk or become a workaholic.
Mr J is not the only MLCer who has a good life, Mr Xyzcf (another workaholic) also has a good life.
Mr J had all the signs and behaviours MLCers have, but, like a handful of others, he went a few steps too far. Fortunatelly, most MLCers do not go as far.
I have forgived Mr J many years ago. Forviness is for us. I cannot live with bitterness and the burden of resentment. It does not mean I do not held him responsible his actions. I do.
Nothing in the way Mr J ended the marriage or in his behaviour was normal. I only have had one relationship that I consider serious before Mr J. I was 17, and we all know that 17 serious is not adult serious. It ended well, so did the one with the boyfriend I had a few years after Mr J left. I still speak to both ex-boyfriends. The only one I do not speak to, unless for legal reasons, is Mr J. No one has ever treated me the way Mr J did.
MLC is much more than an affair and often it is very, very ugly.
Barbie, he may not have intentionally sat down and planned an affair, but he had one and didn't stop it. Like RCR says, affairs require planning. A lot of it. Going behind a spouse's back involves a lot of scheming, planning, etc. I don't know if Mr J did sat and say "I am going to have an affair", but he did call OW1 and carry on with the affair even when he had serious doubts about it. Their meetings in hotel bedrooms, etc. took planning. A lot of it.
My wallower cousin dreamed with getting a new woman, that can be seen as planning. Since he was a wallower, he had no energy for it. It is possible your husband and Mr J did the same, but we do not know it. Since they weren't wallowers they acted on it.
Regardless, do you believe your husband was not aware an affair is hurtful and disrepectul?
The affair has nothing to do with the LBS. MLC has nothing to do with LBS or marriage. However, there is nothing in the affair. Zero.
If there was, by now, Mr J and several other MLCers, like Trustandlove's husband who is on OW6 would have learned something and solved their issues, whatever those may be. And they would be the most healed and wise men on earth. No such luck.
Invisible forces? I call it depression, lack of respect for spouse, lust, fall-in-love and use it as an excuse to behave bad. There is nothing to understand. Or there may be in a man like your husband who had an horrendous childhood. Mr J had a good middle-upper class childhood. He was just a fool that felt for the oldest trick on earth and allowed his depression to reach terrible levels.
I am fine with you seeing a purpose in your husband's affair if that helps you. For me there is none.
Anon, so your therapist tells you that you need compassion and you don't actually feel any so now you feel compelled to concoct a theory about the ow that allows you to feel compassion? This is a great example of how therapists create problems to solve to justify their job. Compassion is a good thing but if you don't feel it then that's okay.
I am going to have to agree. My love (sarcasm) of therapist was never big. The more I read on HS how therapists operated the more I deslike them. The exception being therapists that do practical therapy. Therapist need to make money. Nothing like coming up with tons of theories and saying people have a million issues to allow them to keep making lots of money.
OW gone does not mean the LBS will be the queen of the castle. The MLCer may remain on their own, want nothing with the LBS, or is just killing time until a new OW comes along. A thing those of us with a MLCer who has more than one OW know.
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Quote from: GonerinGhana on Today at 07:35:11 PM
Anon, so your therapist tells you that you need compassion and you don't actually feel any so now you feel compelled to concoct a theory about the ow that allows you to feel compassion? This is a great example of how therapists create problems to solve to justify their job. Compassion is a good thing but if you don't feel it then that's okay.
I am going to have to agree. My love (sarcasm) of therapist was never big. The more I read on HS how therapists operated the more I deslike them. The exception being therapists that do practical therapy. Therapist need to make money. Nothing like coming up with tons of theories and saying people have a million issues to allow them to keep making lots of money.
OW gone does not mean the LBS will be the queen of the castle. The MLCer may remain on their own, want nothing with the LBS, or is just killing time until a new OW comes along. A thing those of us with a MLCer who has more than one OW know.
Oh good Lord, GIG, if this is all you got from my posts on this thread then I will quit now. Concoct a theory about ow?? Seriously? I started off saying 97% of MLCer have affairs, wondered why, curious why, and is it relevant to MLC issues, and now I’m concocting ow theories? Many great theories already abound and I don’t need to concoct new ones, not do I desire to. Many esteemed writers on MLC including RCR, HB, DB, etc have already written about the MLC and why there is an AP. I’m only wondering if they are on to something. I’ve said in many different ways why I would like to consider this angle but it seems to be completely disregarded in favour of minimizing all that I’ve said into some silly naive “let’s concoct a nice pretty theory that fits to make me feel better.” My interest is so far from that it’s ridiculous. It feels to me like you haven’t even attempted to understand where I’m coming from and why I might be interested in following this line of thought.
As far as therapists go, I’m not afraid to walk away from one who lacks understanding in MLC. The one I see now is the 3rd one in 2 years. The first 2 didn’t last long and there were huge gaps between each one. The last therapist I want is one who wants to tell me how to feel or what to do. I’m too far along to not recognize if this is all they are doing. This therapist fits for me and if I wasn’t getting some benefit believe me I would quit going. The suggestion to find compassion is a good one for me. I’m not going into why but trust me that if it made no sense I would reject it completely. I’m also anything but stupid and I’m fully aware the marketplace is full of people, including therapists, wanting to take advantage of vulnerable people in order to make a living. I could write a book on how to avoid these pitfalls in our culture. I’m far more aware than most as my close friends could tell you but of course you can’t know that from my posts on an online forum and I don’t expect you to either. It would be nice though, to be given the benefit of the doubt instead of going straight to a reply that suggests I’m a idiot that can’t find my way out of a Walmart store.
Anjae, I don’t care if ow is gone tomorrow or stuck like glue to h for the rest of his days. Makes no difference to my situation either way - I’m done and don’t care what he does now or 10 years from now. I’m the queen of the castle in my own house whatever he does or how many ow he finds down the road. Why did you even bring this up? Seems pretty unrelated to what I’ve posted. All I’m trying to do is wrap up those remaining thoughts about MLC that I would refer to as loose threads so I can peacefully call it a day and enjoy the rest of my life.
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I have to say I recognise what Anon says here about tidying up ones own loose threads. Which is quite different from 'concocting a theory' and very different from imposing ones own theories on someone else.
This experience leaves loose threads.
Which are perhaps different for different people.
And sometimes take us into the deep water of stuff like choice and responsibility and compassion and forgiveness et al.
The two most useful therapists I had understood that the core of this for me was about trauma.
And that trauma is necessarily about dealing with a level of cognitive dissonance. When x and y don't add up but you need to find a way to live with both anyway and to find your own peace with that. I suspect we all have different ways of doing that and reach different operating assumptions that help. It really is an internal bit of chewing that over time I think becomes less about the other person and more about how we make sense of what happened enough to be able to live comfortably with the fact that it did.
It is very difficult to make sense of someone else's head and crisis and behaviour. It would be nice to not have to do it at all of course, but for many of us the effect on our lives of what happened was life-altering and belief-challenging. And most likely OUR reality is not the same as THEIR reality, not even close. Most of us tussle with the dichotomy of a crisis that wasn't about us but where so much of the behaviour seems to be directed at us I guess.
The affair probably triggers a whole bunch of other emotions for any LBS, but if I look at it as just one thing in a set of things my then h did....part of the landscape of his choices....then I suppose at a simple level I assume that when he did these things he did them to either avoid pain or try to feel better. And that the common thread is that only HIS pain or HIS pleasure mattered and he was prepared for anyone else to pay any price at all if his pain was less or if he felt just a bit better. Idk if ow was about avoiding the pain of things he didn't want to deal with or if the affair gave him things that made him feel better. Or even a bit of both. Or what ow represents to him and what he has learned from the relationship. Tbh I don't even know what I represented to him or what he learned from being with me and I was there! I can see that whatever it was about, my pain was so irrelevant that he didn't do it primarily to hurt me. He did it to feel or get whatever it was he wanted. I simply didn't exist in his landscape at all. Same when he stole from me, or took cocaine, or sold his car, or changed jobs, or got a sleeve tattoo, or filed for divorce and then stopped talking, or saw his psychiatrist and lied or ignored messages from his friends or stroked the stolen watch like Gollum or sent me a weepy thinky email or kept some posessesions and discarded others.. I have no idea what he got from doing any of these things but he must have got something from it or he wouldn't have done it. I guess either he knows why and feels comfortable or he has yet to figure out why if he isn't comfortable. And I honestly have NO idea how he feels about any of it or if to him it served a good purpose for which he feels grateful and at peace. I only know how it felt/feels to me. Oh, and I suppose that he didn't behave like someone who seemed happy, peaceful and comfortable even with the last birthday text thing - by my standards of what that normally looks like in others.
Does compassion only matter if I/we decide that our spouses were/are not healthy?
Does compassion only work if we understand why they did these things?
Does compassion only work if we know that it hadn't produced a good outcome for them?
And - if they are no longer in our lives or future lives in any substantial way - what purpose does our compassion serve?
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I wonder if Anon is trying to do something she is not ready to do. Many Psychoanalysts don't really believe in the possibility of true forgiveness because the unconscious never forgets, so any forgiveness lives alongside anger within the unconscious and the best we can hope for is a kind of ambivalence.
Forgiveness anyway can only be properly achieved when the act of mourning is completed and integrated. If we tell ourselves we have forgiven before this is complete we are bypassing the vital work of mourning loss. Being encouraged to forgive too early can re traumatise.
A famous psychiatrist, DW Winnicott (famous for the phrase ‘the good enough mother’ and for exploring the use of ‘transitional objects’ and ‘transitional space’). Said that forgiveness can only come when we are in a certain transitional space when it just happens and is a by product of the way we are living our lives. So the work of forgiveness and compassion is not to focus on forgiveness because it is forced, but to work on living in a certain way with the support of community etc until it happens naturally.
Forgiveness with the purpose of surreptitious empowerment of the victim should not be done, otherwise it is false and avoids dealing with grief.
Here is a short excerpt from an essay I’m reading by C.Fred Alford from a journal of psychoanalysis
Probably the most significant psychoanalytic contribution to forgiveness is to see it as one possible outcome of grief and mourning over loss. As Salman Akhtar (2002, pp. 200, 206) argues, while the capacity for forgiveness is necessary for psychic growth, this capacity is the result of analytic work leading to an ability to successfully grieve and mourn. Forgiveness is not a pathway by which we learn to grieve and mourn, even as forgiveness and mourning may eventually reinforce each other. The ability to mourn loss comes first. From this ability the capacity for forgiveness is born. When and how we grant forgiveness is a matter of cultivation and culture. Forgiveness is the outcome of successful mourning. Not a necessary outcome, but a possible one.
Judith Butler makes the good point that we fight not only against the finality of loss, but the transformation to the self that must follow once we accept this loss. Generally this loss is of another person to whom we are deeply attached, but it may be to an idea about ourselves, or about the world. As Butler (2004) puts it,
On one level, I think I have lost ‘you’ only to discover that ‘I’ have gone missing as well. At another level, perhaps what I have lost ‘in’ you, that for which I have no ready vocabulary, is a relationality that is neither merely myself nor you, but the tie by which those terms are differentiated and related. (p. 22)
In mourning, we mourn for the loss of those parts of ourselves that are lost forever (or so it seems, and it is often true) with the loss of the other, for they were located in the interperson.
This, suggests Frommer (2005, p. 42), is the reason why we long to forgive.
Perhaps this is why when we struggle to forgive, the recognition of what has been done to us and the expression of remorse from the person who has done it feel so much like a lifeline; the other's acknowledgment allows for the possibility that we may preserve the self we have known in relation to them; that we don't need to mourn its passing.
This raises a hope that is also a troubling possibility: that the greatest risk of forgiveness, the reason for its current popularity, and resultant misuse, is that it hints at the possibility that we can “let go” without mourning what we have lost. Forgiveness becomes mourning manqué, acceptance without grief.
Frommer's hint of a conjecture, that forgiveness might allow us to bypass grief and go straight to acceptance, because forgiveness allows us to maintain a relationship to the one who has hurt us, allowing us to keep that part of ourselves that knows itself only in relationship to that person, is not applicable to all who offer forgiveness that is out of place. While not a general theory of popular forgiveness, Frommer's conjecture is one way of accounting for the current fascination with forgiveness.
Popular forgiveness is forgiveness which offers something for nothing, acceptance of loss without mourning and grief. I can keep my attachments and let them go at the same time. All I have to do is forgive the one who has victimized me so that I can “let go” of my hate and loss without mourning the loss of those parts of myself by which I knew myself in relationship to my victimizer.
Rabbi Harold Kushner, well‐known author of When Bad Things Happen to Good People, told a parishioner “I'm asking you to forgive because [your husband] doesn't deserve the power to live in your head and turn you into a bitter, angry woman” (Wiesenthal, 1997, p. 176). Kushner seems to be telling his parishioner to forgive her husband so she can liberate herself from her angry attachment to him. What he does not tell her, what he seems unprepared to tell her, is that lacking her angry attachment to her husband she will finally have to mourn his loss.
I think it’s ok to be ambivalent; that we are not failures if we are slow to forgive and that we have to give grieving our loss as much attention as we are able to bear. I wonder if the effort to understand and struggle with forgiveness is a kind of bypass of the hard, long work of grieving?
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Wow, Nerissa...that is some powerful stuff. Lots of layers.
I came back from my (late) beach walk thinky with compassion on my mind and then read this. There is a lot in there so I will re-read it but the two things that jumped out at me were about what forgiveness might really mean and that the loss is truly perhaps about the lost bit of me that existed in relationship with another.
Tbh I have released myself from any pressure to forgive. I'm not sure I can. I'm not sure I want to. I'm not sure I have received enough quid pro quo to try. And forgiving myself is a hard enough job. Not hating and not blaming my xh for everything bad is good enough for me right now.
The bit about the lost bit of me completely rings true. It was one of my biggest struggles after my father died. Being my father's daughter was a defining part of my sense of self, had been for years. Funnily enough, I said something en passant to my uncle the other day and he laughed and said 'well, you're your father's daughter!' So how could I still be his daughter if my father was gone? What did that mean? Could I do it and not live in a lost past? Or with people who never knew him or knew me as a daughter? With regard to my father, i think I have managed to pick out the bits that I can still carry with me but it is also true that some bits are gone bc they existed in the space between us and needed his contribution too. And it is static somehow bc there is no fresh interaction or evolution in the daughter bit of me.
So, compassion thoughts from the beach. And I speak only for me. My compassion has changed flavour over time. When the bond was still there, probably for both of us, my compassion was a function of love and about my h. Perhaps I thought it would be useful to him somehow. (I don't think it was though. And it probably added to my pain and bewilderment that it wasn't bc that reinforced how irrelevant I had become to him.).
Now it is more for me. I think it feels like a softer kind of acceptance rather than an angry hard FU kind. Practically speaking whether I feel compassion or not makes not a whit of difference to my long gone h as far as I can see...so in my circumstances, it must serve a purpose for me. It isn't about forgiveness...I can feel compassion but not forgive him (or others) for his cruelty and indifference. For me perhaps compassion feels like it reflects my own sense of reality before and after BD, what I saw and heard, and it leads me to a funny kind of 'well, s$it happens that isn't about me all over the place'. Compassion helps me put some of the weight down I think.
I don't know very much at all. But I do know that my h suffered pain, fear and distress bc I saw and heard it. I know that he lost things that had mattered very much to him before and that those things cannot be repaired if they still matter to him or ever do again. And that his actions created most of that which some part of him will know. I have compassion for all of that. I suspect my compassion may be more for who he was though than who he is if that makes sense. I simply don't have enough information about how/who xh is now to even know if anything warrants compassion. But I am content to trust my own eyes and ears, to trust that erasing most of two decades of your life is a big deal for any adult, to trust that my h broke in some way and was profoundly damaged by it, to trust that the person I knew would have not chosen this for himself or me. He still did, and it can't be undone, but the person I knew would have been horrified by it.
Perhaps my compassion for my h, as opposed to xh, is a way of protecting the reality of that lost relationship and part of that bit of me by believing that h was as I saw him? And that I was who I thought I was in that space maybe? The alternative I suppose without that compassion would be to accept that my reality was a lie, that the bond was one sided....and I don't think I want to live with that assumption. So, in a funny way, my compassion for my h is probably quite a selfish thing that serves more purpose for me than for him.
Would I feel compassion for xh if I had more information about the outcome of his choices for him? If he turned up asking for my support or obviously still broken or distressed? If he explained some of his choices or how he felt or why he was unwilling or unable to show compassion to me? If he felt like it was all a terrible mess that he was lost in? Or showed regret even? I don't know. Maybe. It wouldn't be the same kind of active compassion i suspect as when he was my h, but maybe. Maybe like listening to a hurting stranger?
Would I feel less compassion for xh if I knew he was chortling with delight and bouncing around his new life with a sense of glee and liberation? Probably. I'm arrogant ha ha but not arrogant enough to impose my compassion on someone who feels no need for it and sees no pain or loss. And that may be exactly how he feels. I simply don't know.
But I do know that my compassion for the h I saw in pain and distress does not require any further evidence or any more details about help, hindrances, ow or speculation about responsibility or even intent. The compassion is probably just about the simple high level reality that I could see. He was hurting, he hurt me and others, he destroyed things, I lost things bc of that. Both of us suffered I think but maybe in different ways. And my compassion is about accepting that it was painful and traumatic and sad and life altering for him as well as me. But I can feel it without needing to do anything more than feel it.
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Treasur, maybe the compassion you have is
A) an understanding of H’s psychic pain ...which might be an embryonic stage of forgiveness which may lead to:
B) forgiveness in the sense of being an ideal
Virtue of forgiveness as an understanding of human frailty.
The final stage - a complete personal and emotional
Forgiveness may well be impossible if we understand the unconscious as having no sense of time (there is no ‘past’ for the unconscious) and that the memory of the pain and the person who caused it will always remain, even if out of our awareness.
I am struck by the idea that premature forgiveness risks re traumatising and I ‘feel’ it: little has jarred my psyche more than suggestions it’s time I got over it, or ‘it happens, move on’ or that I am headed for bitterness.
Some of my most powerful healing moments were when my therapist said things along the lines of: “It’s a disaster. Your family is wrecked” (she has done a lot of grief work with me)
And my tutor said to me “he has taken away your future as you anticipated it. There is nothing ...nothing that he can ever do that will make amends”. Or when he said it is a catastrophe for my daughters and me.
That kind of validation of our reality, bleak though it seems, has had such power in helping me begin to come to terms with my situation. The emotional power of the human recognition of having someone look directly at me and acknowledge my desolation has been essential for me and I shall never forget those moments or the people - friends as well as professionals - who gave them to me in a short but intense moment of communion.
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I agree Nerissa.
It was a life-altering horror for me when I was already grieving and vulnerable. It was a level of shock and pain that almost killed me. I got PTSD because it actually WAS traumatic and frightening. There was not one bit of my life that was not fundamentally changed by it.
It was a big deal.
I am grateful for anyone who can see that.
And usually want to spit in the eye of anyone who wants to make it anything less than what it was.
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OK, for the sake of being clear, this is the post I am talking about.
I just would like to ask, why is finding compassion and forgiveness for someone going to help you move on? I see people in this forum who are stuck with a compassionate attitude and those who are stuck with a hateful attitude and those who are stuck claiming to have an ambivalent attitude but still seem obsessed with their MLCer. Which makes me wonder if moving on has nothing to do with the attitude we have toward the MLCer at all. In any case, the person is still obsessed with the MLCer and not moving on elsewhere.
I'm just musing and what's posted below are some of my own opinions and conclusions 'for the moment'. It could change tomorrow.
I think I’m interested in this topic for a couple of reasons. First,,,as part of my healing and letting go journey I need to find some understanding, compassion and then forgiveness in order to shut the door once an for all on this painful period in my life. Otherwise, the ‘what the hell happened’ of this time in my life might always occupy some headspace whether I like it or not.
The second part is just plain and simple curiosity. It’s the biggest mystery of my life - the wtf happened and why? If I don’t need to know but just accept it, then fine,,, I do accept. But I alo want to know and understand because that’s simply my nature. I love a good mystery. It doesn’t mean I am still emotionally attached, just curious. Like Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking were curious about the workings of the universe. They didn’t cry in their pillow every night about it but they loved a good mystery and pursued it. I have a psychology background so it’s natural I would be curious about the workings of the human mind especially when I have had a front row ticket to a lot of the goings on and the great damage caused. But unlike Einstein or Hawking, I don't plan to make a career of it.
For me and my h,,, the dynamic between us has absolutely changed and likely forever. We’ve both changed and even though there may be a kernel of nostalgia about the life we once shared, and I know it’s gone forever. It’s doubtful if the current dynamic between us would even support a friendship in the future. But I still dwell on what was because it was good, and my therapist says I don’t need to understand it all but I do need to find compassion and forgiveness of my H to end the thoughts that always seem to be nearby.
To answer the discussion question…. I think the affair does both - it hinders and helps but at different stages. Someone in MLC is someone that cannot engage in introspection to work through what ails them. That leaves external solutions. I don’t know why that external solution has to be a romantic relationship when its a parent they have the unresolved issues with, but that’s what seems to be the case. These MLCers meet someone who shares many traits of the parent with the most conflict. It’s true in my H’s case. His ow is hot and cold. More cold when around other people, almost like she doesn’t want to let on to anyone how much she is into him, but when alone she often makes him feel like he’s the only man in the world.,,, as long as he does what she expects of him, and from what I've heard it's a hit and miss endeavor. So this is the aspect that is similar to how it was with his mother. She was quite dismissive of him, emotionally cold, emotional cruel, emotionally manipulative and so is his ow. To this day he is a conflict avoiding people pleaser and always has been from a young age. Craving his mother’s attention and barely getting a taste of it because she withheld it frequently and unpredictably. This is why his ow can keep him hooked - by being exactly the same way.
Is this how they choose their mlc partner then? Or is it really because the ow is simply available as we often hear, or is it because they can recreate an unhealthy dynamic that needs fixing? And this person also needs to be available because I think that part of the equation does need to be true. Maybe it’s a mutual need to recreate some dynamic that fits for them both?? idk… In this sense I think the relationship does help them in their crisis. If they can only deal with issues externally, is there any other choice that through an unhealthy relationship? A healthy relationship would not work because the original conflicted relationship was not healthy.
Many people grow up with some major or minor conflict with one or both parents. Dealing with the conflict means standing up for yourself, laying down boundaries to your parents who may not have treated you so well, and refusing to take any more abuse from them. It takes great courage and emotional strength to do that with your parents but once done you can move forward with some kind of relationship peace. If you manage to do that before you reach mid-life then you may not need a substitute down the road in the form of ow/om during an MLC.
If you couldn’t do that with your parents, then a substitute in the form of ow/om may appear so you can have another stab at breaking free by standing up for yourself, laying down boundaries and refusing to take further abuse. This is their chance to resolve the conflict - by breaking free from the emotional bonds. So they need the ow/om to get this done. They pick them so they can find the emotional strength to break free from them. They don’t always succeed but stay entrapped and this is when the relationship with the AP holds them back from their journey. They get stuck here because they can’t find the strength to break free.
I think the fact that ow/om are personality disordered is no accident, in fact it may be a requirement. Some of the most damaged adults were raised by personality disordered parents. To recreate that dynamic obviously a similarly disordered person is required. These are not easy relationships to get out of but neither is it easy to break free from the dysfunctional parent relationship either. If the ow/om relationship didn’t match closely enough then it wouldn’t be recreating the dynamic and it would then be easy to say bye bye to the AP but the original issues would remain instead of be resolved.
So the MLCer gets stuck in the AP relationship when they fail to grow in maturity and emotional strength, just like they failed to do with the parental relationship they had conflict with. They can’t fix the relationship or the dynamic but they must find the strength to pull away and make peace with it, otherwise MLC may continue until they do.
Personally, I do think the affair is absolutely necessary in a MLC. Without it what is the alternative external solution for those who can’t do it internally? Believing this is true can give me some comfort knowing that the crisis really wasn’t about me or the marriage. It also may lead to some compassion for the MLCer who unconsciously sets out to fix things but just can’t get there. But I believe they did try through the ow/om albeit unconsciously to them and painfully to us. If they could have chosen the outcome from the beginning of their MLC, I wonder how differently things would have turned out. In my h’s case, I believe I know the answer. In the early days,,, he was very aware the decisions he eventually made were not the ones he wanted to make. He was so scared and clung to me like a drowning rat to a life boat. He wanted so bad to not be drawn further into this R with the AP and said so many times but his strength was no match for the pull and eventually he let go and gave in from what may have been emotional exhaustion. He has a life of sorts now with OW but she's in control just like his mother was once in control and he does what he knows from earlier patterns to gain her fickle approval. His new life is nothing like it was or could have been if he found the strength he needed to break free. And he knows it. He tells me in various different ways. So I have found some compassion for him and his struggle through MLC. Next is forgiveness and once I’ve got that down…. I can let go too. And stop ruminating about wtf happened and just live and enjoy my own new life. I don't know who can help him now but it sure isn't me. I doubt he is even aware of the gilded cage he's in and the similarity to his past, so he likely doesn't want help either. He's doing his best to make the most of the life he's got now likely knowing that it's not as good as he once had. But that pull to fix the past is still strong so it may be a decent trade off to him until one day he makes steps to emotional mature and gain enough strength to fight back and break free.
All this above is just mho fwiw and is a conglomerate of all I've read and absorbed along the way since BD. If I'm repeating it here it must mean it makes sense to me at some level otherwise I would have forgotten it by now as I have with so much else I've read. Regardless it doesn't mean it's anything more than a bunch of personal thoughts. I am always open to opposing thoughts and theories about the mystery of MLC.
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I just would like to ask, why is finding compassion and forgiveness for someone going to help you move on? I see people in this forum who are stuck with a compassionate attitude and those who are stuck with a hateful attitude and those who are stuck claiming to have an ambivalent attitude but still seem obsessed with their MLCer. Which makes me wonder if moving on has nothing to do with the attitude we have toward the MLCer at all. In any case, the person is still obsessed with the MLCer and not moving on elsewhere.
My belief is that it is explained by attachment that we don’t want to give up. And if we do give it up we have to go through the painful Process of mourning. We keep the attachment alive by keeping it in mind. All quite natural.
Focusing on the the mysteries of mlc may help with understanding but it must also be seen as an intellectualising defence: those of us who feel that understanding will help have to recognise that I think. While we intellectualise, we keep the ‘end’ at bay and thus also keep our painful feelings at bay. Intellectualising is a defence against feeling. It is perfectly useful and reasonable to do this until we are ready to feel those feelings and go through them without being utterly overwhelmed. It isn’t up to anyone except perhaps a therapist to tell People when they have to move on because until we are ready we just can’t - just as we cannot walk until A broken leg is healed.
I don’t want to be stuck forever In Unresolved grief, but I can’t hurry it either. When we feel
Very stuck it's time for help I think and if we choose not to move on - well it’s not an absolute requirement for anyone to deal with it in a prescribed way.
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Forgiveness starts with yourself,
You can not forgive some one else until you forgive yourself.
I believe that is tied to healing and the excellent discussion and post by Anon.
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I just would like to ask, why is finding compassion and forgiveness for someone going to help you move on? I see people in this forum who are stuck with a compassionate attitude and those who are stuck with a hateful attitude and those who are stuck claiming to have an ambivalent attitude but still seem obsessed with their MLCer. Which makes me wonder if moving on has nothing to do with the attitude we have toward the MLCer at all. In any case, the person is still obsessed with the MLCer and not moving on elsewhere.
It isn’t up to anyone except perhaps a therapist to tell People when they have to move on because until we are ready we just can’t - just as we cannot walk until A broken leg is healed.
I don’t want to be stuck forever In Unresolved grief, but I can’t hurry it either. When we feel
Very stuck it's time for help I think and if we choose not to move on - well it’s not an absolute requirement for anyone to deal with it in a prescribed way.
I think Anon explained her POV pretty clearly. You and others may not feel the same; as Anon moves forward, she may change her mind.
But right now it seems she wants to shuck off some of the last bits and tie up some of her own loose threads.
She believes that finding some understanding and compassion will help her let go and shut the door on that bit of headspace.
She believes that her natural curiosity is looking at some loose ends that she is trying to explain to herself bc it was a mystery that changed the course of her life.
She wants to finish her own last bits of moving on and not being obsessed with her MLCer/mlc...and right now thinks that finding some compassion and tidying up a couple of her own last pieces in the puzzle will help her do that. If it doesn't, I guess Anon will try something else...
At least that is how I read where she's at.
I agree completely with OP about forgiving oneself as a first step in my case. Compassion for myself was a precursor to beginning to heal.
There is a danger GiG that we all can fall into of thinking that one LBS solution fits all perhaps? And so we try it but find it isn't quite what we need or we are not quite ready for it maybe. Ergo compassion will help some move on but keep others attached. Same with anger which motivates some to say FU and forge a brand new life and keeps others connected to their MLCer albeit in a negative way. Anon seems to know what she feels she needs and we can all learn by observation and our own trial and error.
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I'm really deeply confused, Anon. I thought you had an interested in the affair and if it hinders or helps because you were into reconnecting/reconciliation. If you are done, I don't understand why anything affair related matters or why is it so complicated to forgive.
RCR and HB have some ideas on the affair, but mostly they say OW/OM means nothing, it is just a distraction. As it was always said on HS. OW/OM is just the person who is willing and is a sympthom, not the cause of MLC.
Many Psychoanalysts don't really believe in the possibility of true forgiveness because the unconscious never forgets, so any forgiveness lives alongside anger within the unconscious and the best we can hope for is a kind of ambivalence.
Bizarre. Forgiveness and forget are different things. I have been using meditation which has a different view on forgiveness.
And my tutor said to me “he has taken away your future as you anticipated it. There is nothing ...nothing that he can ever do that will make amends”.
This, I agree with. No amount of possible future amends will make up for all that was lost. However, I separate it from forgiveness.
It was awful, a world built for 20 years, with lifelong plans, a lifestyle, all gone because of someone's actions/MLC.
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In any case, the person is still obsessed with the MLCer and not moving on elsewhere.
/quote]
This is a possibility. But people process in different ways and speeds. For me, talking over the issues and educating myself on MLC and OW dynamic have absolutely helped me in my detachment efforts. I get that it (MLC/Affair) has nothing to do with me. But, well, I never would have known that but for discussions such as these. Thank you Anon. :D
Nerissa--great post. It makes so much sense.
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Yes this thread is quite interesting.
I think Anon processes things in much the same manner I process. Going back to that time, I needed some way for this to make sense, to tie up loose ends as I moved into a different phase. That does not imply I needed or thought I would get all my answers from the horse's mouth. It meant I found a way to sort the information I had into a cohesive pattern in my head.
I don't see that as focusing on the MLCer or the OP. When I had the brush strokes I moved on. I rarely think of my ex. I almost never speak of him here or elsewhere in real life. He does want to return and continues to write me emails detailing such. I just looked and have 4 unread emails. Yes he is allowed to contact me via email because he completed his therapy and his incarceration. I simply never bothered to seek an updated order of protection, not because I want him to return, but because he is not a factor in my life any longer. If that doesn't work for someone else, than don't do it. It's your responsibility to find a way to move on that works for you.
As to the question of forgiveness, that topic always irritated me as it is discussed on this forum. The focus on agape love in the abstract is useful. However, it's been twisted into a meaningless jumble in many cases. Like GIG, I too see some claiming to have forgiven, others who are stuck for a bit in anger, and others who seemingly forgive anything. What I find true is usually neither extreme of the pendulum is healthiest for me. I'm healthiest in the middle.
Posters seem to get pressed into declaring their forgiveness of the MLCer's actions early on before they have experienced the range of emotions that this experience offers. If one becomes angry, someone comes along to claim she is bitter and failing to exercise agape love as though forgiveness is a necessary prerequisite to a spouse returning. It's obviously not as nothing holds true for all cases and we have had over time examples of MLCers that return to LBS's who have plenty of anger. Anger is a healthy and human emotion. Agape love is an ideal, an aspiration, just as perhaps being Christ-like. We fall short but can try. And we are forgiveable if we fail at times to meet that aspiration.
A MLCer who returns will weather that if he is ready. If not he will withdraw. Either way the timing wasn't right.
As to Anon's original question of discussion, I do not see her focusing on her MLCer or the OW in her situation but more of wishing to discuss concepts that she has to tie up loose ends.
My personal view is that like so much discussed and repeated here, the old salt that the OP could be anyone is wildly inaccurate and just plain wrong.
1. Writings have changed and evolved over the years based on more evidence being available both on HS and from HB.
2. It's simplest and most understandable to tell newbies the op could have been anyone. The newbie is not prepared to hear anything complex when they are just struggling to get their feet under them.
3. The op is hard to write about emotionally. Perhaps RCR being a human wasn't ready to write more. And has not updated that section so we don't know what her feelings/beliefs are at this date. It's so hard to believe someone else who stepped in to ones marriage may have a use that we couldn't fulfill.
Some years ago I wrote that the op had a purpose and couldn't have been just anyone. I got screaming denials and anger from a group of posters. And now some have changed their minds years down the road with the benefit of additional information.
Questions I pondered as follows:
1. If the op can be anyone, why do some fail to have an op? There is no shortage of people willing to be involved with married persons for one.
2. If it could be anyone, why not just a prostitute? If they have no other purpose than to provide sex, adoration, and companionship, then a prostitute fits the bill for a price, which can be much less than an OW.
3. If the op can be anyone, why fairly consistently find one who is an affair down? It's not the old song that only an affair down would go with a married person since that presumes the MLCer told the partner the truth about their marital status. That's inaccurate based on the evidence of the forum.
4. If the op can be anyone, why do so many find themselves attracted to affair partners that resemble in some way or sense an abusive parent, guardian, family member? Are there so many people in the world that are similarly abusive that the MLCer just gets lucky and solves their repetition compulsion?
5. If the op can be anyone, why do some choose to have no sexual affair partner? Or some choose another form of affair partner? One H here chose a man in the roll of affair partner. No it was not sexual. He and this man became as close as two brothers, living together, vacationing together, drinking together, working together, trying the same sports, dressing similarly. Now 7 years later, the LBS sees her H as having made the guy into the brother he lost in a snowmobile accident when the H was 9. Strangely, the brother op looks like the H enough that many believe they are brothers. And H is reconnecting.
If the op can be anyone, why is the stage of withdrawal as detailed in the stages necessary? If these affair partners are nothing to the MLCer, why do they go through withdrawal? The only answer is because the OP has relevance.
If the op can be anyone, why do some have multiple op's? Why drop one for another or cheat on one with another?
Why if the op can be anyone, does the MLCer go through such deep limmerance? How many of us heard from our MLCer how perfect and wonderful the op was/is? If the op could be anyone, why isn't the MLCer ambivalent?
I wonder how many returning healing MLCers could articulate the importance of the op or even have the cognitive awareness to describe it.
I wonder how many returning former MLCers fail to discuss any importance of the op because they don't want to scuttle the chances with their spouse to return?
But there is one paragraph Anon wrote that explains for me why I was interested in this thought pattern. I wish I could quote on my phone. But it goes something like how does a sane person suddenly go off the tracks. He doesn't
I wrote about this once before as well to screaming denials. In my mind at the time:
1. Our spouses did this horrible thing-mlc affair, monster, whatever to various degrees.
2. We never saw it coming, never saw their capacity to act like this in most cases. We were shocked.
3. Since they did this, and so possessed the capacity and we were shocked, there was part of them we didn't know.
So the question of above and what I had to forgive myself included not seeing the possibility, not seeing something was wrong, not seeing his pain, his identity crisis coming and learning to forgive myself for my possible blindness. Learning to trust myself again. After all if I missed his propensity for a mlc, how could I trust my perception of people, motives, reality, and behaviors. Tying up loose ends led me there. It never led me to wanting my ex to return.
Lp
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I know my xh fretted about losing hair for a long time before BD. He would put all kinds of creams and chemicals on his head and sleep with a hair bag on it at night. Seemed to take 100's of supplements too and none of them worked because as I told him, it seemed to be genetic. A lot of people in his family have thin hair or hair that falls out a lot, men and women. That went on for several years before he started lazing about on the couch for hours and hours, sometimes all night watching TV. I knew something was wrong with him but he denied it. Then he got the bright idea to start another business that was destined to fail but I was cooperative because I knew this was a last-ditch effort for him to look successful in front of his family, which wouldn't have mattered anyway because they will never see him like that. It doesn't matter if he makes a million dollars a year and owns 100 houses, he will always be a failure/less than in their eyes. I've known it for a long time but he won't accept it. A year passed and when it was obvious the business had failed, my grandmother died (who he was close to) and bam, the affair started.
EVERYTHING about this, save for the "new business" - unless you count owning & operating a winery. (I suppose that counts as his "new business.")
What I really resonated with is how he is will ALWAYS be a failure in their eyes because he was not a teacher, or a judge/cop, or whatever within his home town. He wanted MORE financially, and accomplished that. Still, he remains an abject failure.
Thank you for this. I actually volunteered to "do his books" at BD (that's my forte - being meticulous about dollars & cents.) He didn't care, and only now do I understand WHY....he just wanted to be RID of me.
Anyway - EXCELLENT post here xxx
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There is lots here to respond to since I last posted. Thank you all for adding to the discussion. At this stage in my journey I am often not sure if I am on the right track to full healing which is why I post,,,, so others can offer a perspective I may not have considered. My thoughts (especially those here) are just that,,, thoughts,,, not definitive answers. I wouldn’t need to post if I knew it all. Different viewpoints are good because they challenge my thinking and when they do, I always learn something. Always. For that I am grateful because it pushes me forward faster than anything I can do on my own.
I want to clear up a few misconceptions. I am not reconnecting or reconciling. I have no interest in returning to the marriage. That has nothing to do with how deeply I was hurt or how much I loved my h. I worked hard to get here - to the point where I can genuinely say 'I'm done' as opposed to a reactive stance. There are 2 ways I could have chosen as a lbs: 1. do all I can to increase the likelihood of a reconciliation, or 2. accept that my marriage has fatal flaws whether I like it or not, and do all I can to prevent reconciliation. For the first year I was all over #1. Second year, I chose #2. I broke my own heart when I chose #2. I loved my h as deeply as anyone and I knew deep down (still know) that one day he will want to return. I also know deep down a return is not in the best interests of either one of us for many good reasons. I can’t articulate why I believe that at the moment so I will give no further explanation, but it is a deeply felt belief. Given all this, is it a surprise to anyone that I have some bumps on the road to fully letting go and killing the frequent ruminations? Or that I don't have all the answers going forward from here?
A few thoughts on Forgiveness. When I talk about forgiveness I am not referring to forgiveness that comes with a shallow reconciliation of sorts. Like when you kiss and make up and say all is forgiven so WE can move on. I’m talking about the forgiveness that is not dependant on reconciliation, or forgetting what happened, or excusing and absolving an abuser of accountability. It’s the kind of forgiveness that has nothing to do with WE moving on, but everything to do with ME moving on. That means for me releasing the negative emotions that came with and after the bomb. Why? Because un-forgiveness suggests harbouring negative emotions and hanging onto negative emotions for any reason is emotionally draining. It hurts me and slows or stops my forward momentum. The worse I want to feel about this situation is ‘neutral’ because there is no energy drain with neutral. Anything less and my emotional energy is negatively impacted. This kind of forgiveness has nothing to do with ‘them’ and everything to do with ‘me’. They are the target of my negative emotions that I’m trying to release but that’s it. I recently told a close friend about my efforts to find forgiveness for my h and she was appalled saying, “how could you go back to him after all he’s done?”. Forgiveness has nothing to do with ‘going back’ but it seems a huge majority feel that forgiveness is excusing all and going back to what once was. It isn’t.
So,,, in a nutshell,,, my goal is to have infrequent and neutral thoughts about the end of my marriage and about my spouse. How then do I turn negative thoughts into neutral ones? How do I do that after all he’s done? Look beneath the immediate surface to see what influenced this once sane man to go off the rails and not just this man but most other MLCers too. Try to make sense of it in some context. Appreciate the complexity of their ‘inner turmoil’ and from that develop compassion for their life destroyed by MLC, something they never asked for nor wanted. Not the compassion that says,, ,oh come here you poor thing, let me kiss it better and all will be fine. All will NOT be fine but find instead the compassion that recognizes that their inner turmoil, depression, is not something they chose but it led to MLC and the destruction of BOTH our lives (or many lives) REGARDLESS of whether they knew and understood what they were doing or not. If compassion can be found,, maybe it takes digging deep to get there,,, but if compassion can be found then Forgiveness may follow soon after. If I can do that, then no negative emotions will remain to drain my energy or keep me stuck finding my own life post bd. I don't expect it to happen overnight. I also don't want to look back years from now and see that I'm dealing with the same issues despite the passage of time.
Compassion and forgiveness are far from simple concepts in light of MLC and the destruction of our lives. There are layers of forgiveness as well. For example,,,, being unhappy and depressed, falling out of love with me and not revealing it until bd, making the decision to leave the marriage instead of working it out - all these would be forgivable eventually. To me what isn’t easily forgivable is on-going adultery/infidelity, the intentional breaking of the marriage vows, the bailing out the minute someone else more alluring appears on the scene, and then loving them instead of me. Its challenging to find compassion/forgiveness,,, for me anyway. And that leads me back to my attempt to understand why 97% of MLCers have affairs. This is almost ALL of them so for an MLCer to have an affair means that something is so compelling about affairs that it’s all but impossible to avoid. What is that? I’d like to know not because I care two hoots about the ow and how dare she ‘steal my man’ mentality but because there might be something in that explanation that may lead to the compassion and then forgiveness that I need to release the negative emotions associated with it. Tall order? Maybe,,, but I’m interested in pursuing it because intuitively it makes sense to me, that this is the way to get to those infrequent and neutral thoughts about this painful period in my life story so I can give it no more thought going forward than it deserves.
Treasur - thank you - your post reassured me that what I had said made sense because you followed my thinking and understood it. (I was wondering,,, ) Sharing your contemplations is always interesting for me to read because you always say ‘something’ that gives me an ‘a ha,,, never thought of it that way’ moment. I love that you go deep in your thinking and then share with us.
Nerissa - what a fascinating article on forgiveness. It just goes to show that forgiveness is anything but a simple concept and is not easily achieved. This is the crux of my pursuit:
“I'm asking you to forgive because [your husband] doesn't deserve the power to live in your head and turn you into a bitter, angry woman” (Wiesenthal, 1997, p. 176). Kushner seems to be telling his parishioner to forgive her husband so she can liberate herself from her angry attachment to him.”
Then: “What he does not tell her, what he seems unprepared to tell her, is that lacking her angry attachment to her husband she will finally have to mourn his loss”.
Interesting because in my earlier sessions with my own therapist, he began with homework that involved writing out and expressing all my rage, anger, etc. Liberating me from my angry attachment perhaps and bringing on genuine mourning? Oh, time will tell, but it’s fascinating if this is where we are going with therapy because it feels like I’ve already mourned his loss,,,but maybe there is even more to come before it’s all finished.
Anjae “If you are done, I don't understand why anything affair related matters or why is it so complicated to forgive”. Hmmm,,, I don’t know how to respond here. Forgiveness is a hugely complex and complicated thing to me, so I'm baffled that you find it so simple.
“RCR and HB have some ideas on the affair, but mostly they say OW/OM means nothing, it is just a distraction”. They both said much more about the affair than this and specifically how the affair is a result of inner turmoil during MLC. A lot of Jung type stuff which I find fits a lot of what goes on in MLC. Again,,, if there is nothing to this inner turmoil then why do 97% of MLCers have an affair? An affair is pretty much a pre-requisite for MLC.
LP: Your post is an amazing gift to me. You articulated and clarified a lot of my ‘pre-thoughts’ if there is such a thing. Thoughts so early in the forming process that haven’t come together enough to put into words, but you feel the essence of them all the same. You are clearly way ahead of me on this journey but I appreciate the light you are casting on the path back where I am. What you say makes so much sense and it reassures me that I am not barking up the wrong tree if my thoughts are similar. It’s easy to doubt our direction at this stage because there is so much less written about it on the forum than there is for the earlier stages. Thank you for posting here what I know had to be a thoughtful and time consuming effort on your part. I especially liked your solid argument on how it is NOT just anyone who can be the OP. Your comments coincide with my own suspicions that something internal is going on with these MLCers and whatever that is, it serves a definite and specific purpose that not any person can satisfy.
This thread has been a lot more thought provoking than I ever imagined when it began. There is absolute pure GOLD written here. I feel a growth spurt just from reading what you all have written, and I'm so grateful. :)
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I think that the affair at the time does mean something to the MLCer as the seemingly essential fog surrounds their distorted brains. Why else would they more often than not choose ow/om who normally they would not look twice at.
Certainly chemical imbalances play a big part in their altered personalities and thinking. I’m a believer in the affair being a part of MLC and I too have witnessed this in reality both with my Father and more recently my sister.
She herself told me that she lost all feelings for her then H and began an EA with a man who was the polar opposite of her H. Her H begged, pleaded, threatened etc all in a desperate bid to get my sister to love him again. In effect he wouldn’t give her what she asked for and she felt pushed and pressured so much that she threw him out and continued with her EA. Her H wouldn’t wait and he found another woman who looked so much like my sister it was scary. My sister moved it up a notch and started a pa with the om.
Fast forward two years or so and she starts to wake up, realises that she does in fact love her h and, after about 3 months throws out the om. It’s now too late because her h has a baby with ow and married her. There’s much regret on my sisters part and she keeps telling me that the affair was something to relieve the feeling of despair and numbness. That if her h had given her the time she needed she would have woken sooner but he wouldn’t leave her alone.
In my view the om did play a part and at the time was important but outgrew his importance when she started to wake up.
Just thought I would throw it in the mix so to speak
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I’m talking about the forgiveness that is not dependant on reconciliation, or forgetting what happened, or excusing and absolving an abuser of accountability. It’s the kind of forgiveness that has nothing to do with WE moving on, but everything to do with ME moving on. That means for me releasing the negative emotions that came with and after the bomb. Why? Because un-forgiveness suggests harbouring negative emotions and hanging onto negative emotions for any reason is emotionally draining. It hurts me and slows or stops my forward momentum. The worse I want to feel about this situation is ‘neutral’ because there is no energy drain with neutral. Anything less and my emotional energy is negatively impacted. This kind of forgiveness has nothing to do with ‘them’ and everything to do with ‘me’. They are the target of my negative emotions that I’m trying to release but that’s it. I recently told a close friend about my efforts to find forgiveness for my h and she was appalled saying, “how could you go back to him after all he’s done?”. Forgiveness has nothing to do with ‘going back’ but it seems a huge majority feel that forgiveness is excusing all and going back to what once was. It isn’t.
ABSOLUTELY true..... This was one of the points I brought out in a sermon I preached recently. Forgiveness means letting go of the negative, the anger, the internal poison and getting on with one's life. As you noted Anon, at least achieving neutrality. It does NOT mean that one forgets everything that has happened and it most certainly does NOT require letting the person back into one's life. If one just "forgets" or sweeps everything under the rug that happened, one is essentially predestined to repeat the pattern unless there are significant changes made by the "offender" and even then, there is NO guarantee that the lessons we have learned would allow us to permit them back into our lives on a meaningful basis - "Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result."
As for the Alienator being "anyone," I personally think that the Mid-Lifer is seeking something that they feel they are not getting in the R and the Alienator is someone/something they feel fills that need. Having said that, as LP noted, it does NOT have to be a sexual affair and, depending on who one reads/listens to, the alienator doesn't even need to be a human... It could be a hobby, a job, but it is something that is filling a "hole" in their lives that they are desperate to have filled. This may be an explanation as well why some Mid-Lifers have multiple Alienator's.... The Alienator fills a need... until they don't.... so the Mid-Lifer moves on to the next one.. and the next one... and the next one ad nauseum. That is why the idea of the Prostitute doesn't work well for those seeking a sexual thrill... If the MLC'er is seeking validation and adoration in the form of sex, a paid professional isn't going to do it because they are PAID to perform.... There is nothing "natural" about it, nothing "organic," nothing real.... The MLC'er is NOT going to get that need filled when they are explicitly paying for the reaction... The human Alienator, on the other hand, "feels" organic to the Mid-Lifer. The MLC's truly BELIEVES that the AP is "in love" with them and that it is NOT just a paid performance..... This would indicate that it is NOT "just about sex" or the next orgasm but that there is, in fact, an emotional component involved.... So, does the affair help or hinder or does it matter in the grand scheme of things? The affair/alienator is the way the MLC'er tries to fill a void within themselves but, in the end, that hole is still there, no matter how much rubbish they attempt to fill it with because it is within themselves rather than coming from a lack of something external....
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Fast forward two years or so and she starts to wake up, realises that she does in fact love her h
Any idea how this happened?
It's one of the most mysterious things about MLC--how some of them have this weird reversal of their first weird reversal. Just so strange.
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That if her h had given her the time she needed she would have woken sooner but he wouldn’t leave her alone
Well that's remarkable - denjef31 basically said the EXACT SAME THING!
Idk how to find other user's quotes, but it was posted at the bottom of someone else's thread here......
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I think that the affair at the time does mean something to the MLCer as the seemingly essential fog surrounds their distorted brains. Why else would they more often than not choose ow/om who normally they would not look twice at.
Certainly chemical imbalances play a big part in their altered personalities and thinking. I’m a believer in the affair being a part of MLC and I too have witnessed this in reality both with my Father and more recently my sister.
She herself told me that she lost all feelings for her then H and began an EA with a man who was the polar opposite of her H. Her H begged, pleaded, threatened etc all in a desperate bid to get my sister to love him again. In effect he wouldn’t give her what she asked for and she felt pushed and pressured so much that she threw him out and continued with her EA. Her H wouldn’t wait and he found another woman who looked so much like my sister it was scary. My sister moved it up a notch and started a pa with the om.
Fast forward two years or so and she starts to wake up, realises that she does in fact love her h and, after about 3 months throws out the om. It’s now too late because her h has a baby with ow and married her. There’s much regret on my sisters part and she keeps telling me that the affair was something to relieve the feeling of despair and numbness. That if her h had given her the time she needed she would have woken sooner but he wouldn’t leave her alone.
In my view the om did play a part and at the time was important but outgrew his importance when she started to wake up.
Just thought I would throw it in the mix so to speak
It's stories like this which give so much hope. Thank you for sharing this.
-SS
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My sister is my greatest advisor given she’s had first hand experience of MLC.
She started to wake up or as she calls it, her heart started to thaw and feelings started to return when the om became annoying in that his habits which, whilst in the fog she ignored or brushed aside. She said she started to see this person in the cold light of day as she says.
She started first to find him annoying then aggravating and she realised she had absolutely nothing in common with him, found conversation a chore and spent as much time as possible away from him. In the end she said her feelings were returning for her h and it was like she could see clearly for the first time in a long time.
The day to day living with the om was not what she thought it would be when deep in the fog. As time progressed and small annoyances appeared she awakened more and more.
I’m seeing her this week end so I shall ask her lots of questions 😁
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I am relatively new but for what it's worth I too think it is a need being met that we are not meeting for them. My B/D I was told I just want to be alone that "I am like the Golden Girls" etc etc. Then 3 weeks later I am in love with someone else. 8 Months later I assume they are still together but I have an "off and on" due mostly to the kids. The live 2500 miles apart and see each other once every month or so.
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My sisters om lived in another country and began as an EA.
She didn’t realise she had had a MLC until I told her about my h and the things he did and said. They were so similar and she said she knew what it was to feel nothing. That’s when she began telling me about what happened and her experiences.
It’s definitely to make them feel something in my view and the ap is important at least for now. In her case the old saying familiarity breeds contempt seems appropriate.
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My sister is my greatest advisor given she’s had first hand experience of MLC.
She started to wake up or as she calls it, her heart started to thaw and feelings started to return when the om became annoying in that his habits which, whilst in the fog she ignored or brushed aside. She said she started to see this person in the cold light of day as she says.
She started first to find him annoying then aggravating and she realised she had absolutely nothing in common with him, found conversation a chore and spent as much time as possible away from him. In the end she said her feelings were returning for her h and it was like she could see clearly for the first time in a long time.
The day to day living with the om was not what she thought it would be when deep in the fog. As time progressed and small annoyances appeared she awakened more and more.
I’m seeing her this week end so I shall ask her lots of questions 😁
This is fascinating, Shock. Thank you. And thanks to your sister. I'm sure lots of us are interested to hear whatever else you and she are willing to share about it all. :)
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It’s definitely to make them feel something in my view and the ap is important at least for now.
I think some of the confusion on this thread over the meanings of certain statements is because we are using them in different contexts.
For example, when RCR and others say that the AP is "nothing" or "not important," they don't mean that the MLCer doesn't think they're important. On the surface, the MLCers put the AP ahead of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in their lives. But it is a *false* importance. We see some of them admit this when they wake up.
In my view, RCR et al mean that in actuality--as opposed to MLCer fantasy opinion--the AP is ultimately just a cardboard cutout that will be tossed out when her/his role has been played. (Yes, there do seem to be exceptions. But mostly, not!) Until they learn more about MLC, most LBSs seem to wonder at first how the AP is "better," but we see over and over and over again that APs are generally a lot *worse* people than we are by many measurements. They are not some great love that the MLCer has climbed a ladder to but more like a random rag doll who "could have been anyone" in the sense that they're just an available loser/golddigger/dumsel in distress that a broken, emotionally devoid MLCer trips over and falls into a trap with in desperation. That's all. The "relationship" seems to be ultimately superficial and teenagery.
And, surprisingly often, the MLCer verbalizes negative views of the AP at the SAME TIME they are obsessed with them. That was true with mine. This is love? NOPE. More like sick addiction.
These APs have learned to use their wiles, shall we say, to survive because of their own early life experiences. They are parasites who know, consciously or not, that broken suckers will take care of them if they dance the right dance. But some MLCers are only temporarily quite that broken while many APs are permanently so, and so for some of the APs, the gravy train ends.
That's how I think of what we've been advised, anyway. And nothing I've seen in my world contradicts that...it has been pretty textbook so far, taking into account that all MLC tales are also unique.
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Exactly Red
I think they climb down not up.
My h met the ow at work and she knew full well he’s married from day one. Didn’t stop her though. Affair down in every sense because no one with morals would go after a married man!!!
He’s not kind toward what he says about her either. Refers to her as that stupid c*w!
I take advice from heros spouse and my sister and avoid anything to do with his ap, any of his drama and get on with looking after me!
I’m going to ask my sister lots and lots this weekend she’s willing to enlighten us. 😁😁
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I’m going to ask my sister lots and lots this weekend she’s willing to enlighten us.
Please tell her that there's a whole bevy of LBS's that would love to pick her brain!
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Mego,
She’s happy to help. One of the things she said which resonates a lot is that deep in the recesses of her brain she knew the relationship with om was not right but felt compelled to do it. That it was like a fix of feeling good and it was all she thought about that nothing else mattered.
That she thought she hated her h and his pressure made her feel justified in doing what she was doing but the guilt she felt throughout her MLC was massive.
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I've been following this thread, a lot of very interesting comments!! I never met OW and I have no idea what she's really like.. the 1000s of selfies in her social media make her look very immature which I guess matches my H emotional age right now.. If she will help or hinder, time will tell but for as long as she's around I have 0 interest in H
I’m going to ask my sister lots and lots this weekend she’s willing to enlighten us. 😁😁
I'm also very interested!! Thank you and your sister!
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I think we'll need a Shockwave's sister thread..... (another thought) would she be willing to join the board and interact with us? Former MCL'ers insights are sooooo rare.
-SS
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I think some of us may be taking about a different thing when we say the affair has no purpose. The affair fills a void, as do other MLC behaviours. OW/OM make the depressed MLCer fell something and strike their ego. That is different from the affair having a purpose in MLC resolution and/or solving the MLCer's issues.
If OW/OM/the affair would solve the MLCer's issues, whatever those may be, after the affair the MLCer would be done with MLC and healed. That is not the case. MLCers return broken, or are broken when they try to return and now, having had an affair, have even more issues than before to deal with.
Withdrawal is not a stage for RCR. It is for Conway and HB, their Withdrawal stage is not the same as OW/OM withdrawal. People have withdrawal from whatever/whomever they are addicted or infatuated with. It does not mean there is some deep meaning to it, it is just a normal neurobiological reaction.
Anon, the forgiveness I am talking about is not related to reconnection or reconciliation. If is forgiveness in a wider sense and it is for us. I have no idea how forgiveness works/is with a reconnecting MLCer. I always say forgiving a away MLCer or a MLCer we are done with is easy compared with forviging a returning MLCer. Forgivness has layers and does not come all at once.
Anon's original question is if the affair helps or hinders the MCLer journey through their crisis, not so much if there is a purpose to the affair.
I think we'll need a Shockwave's sister thread..... (another thought) would she be willing to join the board and interact with us?
That would be interesting.
Former MCL'ers insights are sooooo rare.
Rare, but not so rare. Several HS member had a MLC. Try BusyBee or Sewing 22 threads. Myself, Ready2 and others also had a MLC, but a few of us did not had OW/OM because we did not broke the marriage, MLC come with our spouse's BD.
There are are threads from other former MLCers. HS member or not as well as views from MLCers people on HS know/heard of. Look from them in the main board and archives.
Shockwave, a MLCer knowing the relationship with OW/OM is wrong but feeling compeled to go for it is one of the trademarks of the MLC affair. So is the hating spouse as well as feeling guilty (even if I think some MLCers, especially long term ones are very good at hidding or numbing their guilt, especiallly if the have a second OW/OM or a third, fourth, etc.).
Just like there is a MLC script there a post MLC scrip for the MLCer who had OW/OM. Did you sister left her husband? Not all MLCers who have an alienator leave and go live with OW/OM.
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I agree with Anjae,
It's about feeling something, and that is a purpose.... does it move them forward? I think it does. It's an identity crisis, they have to figure out who they are.
A followup question to that (for me) is...... do some MCL'ers flat out refuse to have a PA because of what's left of their morals? Obviously many or most either don't have morals during this, or they are so desperate they don't care. Since they do have guilt during the whole thing.... that suggests some level of morals at work.
-SS
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... does it move them forward? I think it does. It's an identity crisis, they have to figure out who they are.
On that we disagree. As you can read on previous posts of mine, I have never know of a real life MCLer whose affair has moved them forward, including Mr J. The only thing OW2 in particular did was held him back. OW1 was short lived in the open. Going by HS the affair also does not seem to move a MLCer foward. If anything, it hinders them.
A followup question to that (for me) is...... do some MCL'ers flat out refuse to have a PA because of what's left of their morals?
Some, maybe. Mostly, the reason why some MLCers don't have an affair is because they don't have the energy for it = wallowers (even if there is the odd wallower with an affair). A handful of others may be too absorbed in some other MLC thing to care about having an affair.
The guilty may be because they were caught, not because of some remaining moral compass at work.
Most MLCers have affairs, and yes, they either lose they morals or are too desperate, which ends up being the same thing, the morals are no more.
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It’s definitely to make them feel something
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I agree with this and my husband has admitted as much. Said it was better than feeling "nothing". It is some attempt at feeling "normal again" .
It's about feeling something, and that is a purpose
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Yes. It is part of the purpose. Atleast superficially . Subconsciously other things are shifting and changing .
they are so desperate they don't care.
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I believe in my case it was acute desperation and pain . He was looking for something to stop the pain and did not care for a second what it was. He was experiencing emotions that were so overwhelming ...some for the 1st time in his life ... . Indeed, a deep and painfull identity crisis.
My sister also experienced a MLC and did some awful things that are haunting to her. Only thru this experience with my H does she realize what happened to her. She understands my H in ways I cannot.... I agree that at some point , they do see the OW/OM for who they actually are behind the fog. My husband has said many things that do confirm that belief .
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Mego,
She’s happy to help. One of the things she said which resonates a lot is that deep in the recesses of her brain she knew the relationship with om was not right but felt compelled to do it. That it was like a fix of feeling good and it was all she thought about that nothing else mattered.
That she thought she hated her h and his pressure made her feel justified in doing what she was doing but the guilt she felt throughout her MLC was massive.
What your sister said echoes what others like denjef have said. Her timeline also follows those like denjef who have shared their story. It’s always within three years max that they realized they still loved their spouses. Those stories are in the minority.
There are many, many, many, many on this forum with MLCers who have been with the OP for four, five, even 10 or more years. It’s my personal feeling that awakenings like what your sister describes are not happening with these MLCers.
My husband has lived with another woman for almost three years. We have virtually no contact. I have left him alone for years. He is not moving forward in his personal growth. He is simply living a new life.
I would just caution that S&A’s sister is one story and may provide some interesting insight into what she was thinking and feeling, but it’s her unique story. Just like denjef’s story was unique to her. Lots of people hoped their spouse would follow denjef’s path and were disappointed when their situation didn’t unfold that way. So that’s all I’m saying. She’s going to be bombarded with questions but everyone should proceed with caution...
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I would just caution that S&A’s sister is one story and may provide some interesting insight into what she was thinking and feeling, but it’s her unique story. Just like denjef’s story was unique to her. Lots of people hoped their spouse would follow denjef’s path and were disappointed when their situation didn’t unfold that way. So that’s all I’m saying. She’s going to be bombarded with questions but everyone should proceed with caution...
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100% agree with this and was about to type something similar ... but could not have done better. Thanks Nas .
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What your sister said echoes what others like denjef There are many, many, many, many on this forum with MLCers who have been with the OP for four, five, even 10 or more years. It’s my personal feeling that awakenings like what your sister describes are not happening with these MLCers.
This. There is a clear difference between MLCers like Shock's sister, Bee, Sewing22, Denjef, Acorn's husband, RCR's husband, Barbie's Husband, etc. and the long term and very long term MLCer who spend years on end with an alienator. Nas, Mr J OW2 is no more. She has not been OW2 in some 8 months, but they spend 10 years together, 9 of those sharing a house.
He hasn't wake up. If anything, he woke up a bit more after OW1 was no more, than dived deep with OW2. He seems to have replaced OW with his new thing, a record label. Still djing and clubbing, of course.
That I know of, we have no stories from MLCers with extremely long crisis who have spend many years with the alienator. We need Mr Trustandlove, or Mr J, or any of the other never coming out of crisis and spend ages with OW or going through OWs MLCers to be out of crisis and tell us their views on the matter.
MLCers with shorter timelines do not help those of us with the MLCer whose crisis never seem to end, but may help others.
3 years with OW is not that much in MLC world, Nas. It is towards the short end of the spectrum.
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3 years with OW is not that much in MLC world, Nas. It is towards the short end of the spectrum.
Per RCR: "Most get through the tunnel within a few years."
I trust her......
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I have never heard RCR say that, Mego.
That most get through it within a few years?
Where did she say that? Maybe you can refer me to that article.
I've been on here for a long time but have not seen this happen very often at all.
I do believe the worse may be over maybe after 3/4 years but it seems to take much longer to actually come out of their crisis. Just my observation.
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That I know of, we have no stories from MLCers with extremely long crisis who have spend many years with the alienator. We need Mr Trustandlove, or Mr J, or any of the other never coming out of crisis and spend ages with OW
We may not have any firsthand ones, but I recall a recent post where someone mentioned an MLCer they know of who reached out to the LBS after 15 years with the OW. I'm sure there have to be others of really long duration. But the very long-term LBSs are less likely to keep posting in the interim if they're firsthanders, I'd think--not least because it's quite likely after so much time that he or she has given up on the original MLCer and may also have met someone new.
The fact remains that HS posters are a very small sample of LBSs in the world, so it's hard to predict what could happen along the MLC curve on the graph since the range of time they take is soooo variable.
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I have never heard RCR say that, Mego.
That most get through it within a few years?
Where did she say that? Maybe you can refer me to that article.
I've been on here for a long time but have not seen this happen very often at all.
I do believe the worse may be over maybe after 3/4 years but it seems to take much longer to actually come out of their crisis. Just my observation.
There's always the issue that MLC and replay are often conflated. Maybe replay is over after 3 or 4 years, but the whole crisis...probably not, I agree.
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That I know of, we have no stories from MLCers with extremely long crisis who have spend many years with the alienator. We need Mr Trustandlove, or Mr J, or any of the other never coming out of crisis and spend ages with OW
We may not have any firsthand ones, but I recall a recent post where someone mentioned an MLCer they know of who reached out to the LBS after 15 years with the OW. I'm sure there have to be others of really long duration. But the very long-term LBSs are less likely to keep posting in the interim if they're firsthanders, I'd think--not least because it's quite likely after so much time that he or she has given up on the original MLCer and may also have met someone new.
The fact remains that HS posters are a very small sample of LBSs in the world, so it's hard to predict what could happen along the MLC curve on the graph since the range of time they take is soooo variable.
Well my MIL is an MCL'er..... and we've had as deep of talks as she's had with anyone on the subject (I didn't truly know the depths of which until this happened to me). She's coming to visit for a month in AUG and I have a lot of questions to ask this time around.
I assumed she was still running, but now I'm not 100% sure..... maybe a new life chosen and committed to once FIL had remarried and given up on her. I know she came out of the tunnel when he was going to remarry after 10 years D (and she was M to OM). That was 20 years ago. I do know she still clings to the lies she told herself and OM told her when she left FIL.
OM passed away several years ago and she's with someone else (they are not M but live together). The W FIL got was a terrible choice. He was just afraid to grow old and die alone. I think if he had waited a few years longer, and if MIL was shown the truth by someone she trusted like me, she actually would have tried to go home..... or at least asked forgiveness from FIL. I still hope someday she does.
Sooooooo, I may have some insight into the long term MCL'er mind. If there are questions anyone has, I can see if I can frame them into something she may answer. I'm going to have a really deep talk with her while she's here. She thinks she'll be retiring to my home someday. We have a really strong trust and connection.
-SS
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SS
This was the same with my Father. He ended up marrying the worlds gold medalist of psycho ow! As with your FIL he didn’t want to live alone and, after many requests to my Mother for reconciliation, all of which she refused, she re married. My Father took about 5 years before his awakening began. My Mother gave up and moved on.
My Father died 9 years ago and he died still loving my Mother which is so sad as she herself told me that at the time she had no idea about MLC and had there been a forum like this she would have understood and would very probably have waited.
I’m wondering about my sister with her MLC the trigger was our Fathers death but I think the FOO thing was prevalent in her case. Our Father had an MLC so maybe that affected her more than me as she’s older and remembered a lot more.
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We may not have any firsthand ones, but I recall a recent post where someone mentioned an MLCer they know of who reached out to the LBS after 15 years with the OW. I'm sure there have to be others of really long duration.
It was Savoir Faire that mentioned it. Don't recall if it was 15 years with OW or 15 years gone. The MLCer is still with OW, but reconnecting. Still, long term reports, be it first hand, second hand or by the LBS of a long term returning MLCer are rare. Stayed has a friend whose husband turned up after 8 or 9 years gone. He literally showed at his LBS doorstep.
Not all reports on HS are first hand, several are from MLCers or former MLCers HS members know. However, most of those stories tend to be towards the shorter or mid lenght crisis. At times Old Timers that haven't post in a long time show up and update, several still have MLCers in Replay many years down the road, so that is mostly all they have to say for now.
HS posters are a small sample, but larger than many serious studies of all sorts use. Most LBS out there move on. Most likely they don't have a clue what is going on with their spouse (all those years ago at BD I didn't), and even if they do, just like in HS, many will find a new life. Most marriages never reconcile, be it on HS on out there.
Even Replay often (mostly I would say) lasts far more than 3 or 4 years as seen more and more on HS as time goes by. Same with several real life MLCers I and other HS members know. The crisis will last even longer.
Thanks, Standing Strong. Any insight is welcomed. If your MIL is still clings to the lies she told herself and the lies OM told her, she may not be fully cooked? 10 years after divorce is a long time. Many, if not most, LBS have long moved on 10 years after divorce or BD. Your FIL did what he had to do. He could not knew how much long his MLCer crisis was going to last of if it was ever to end.
What is interesting with your MIL, and with the MLCers of some HS male LBS is that we are start to see female MLCers whose Replay and crisis take many years and not what used to be thought, that women's crisis were much shorter than men's ones.
The good thing of HS being around for a good while now (9 years) is that we are learning much more about long Replay and Crisis, but we still don't have information anywhere near the amount we have on BD and the early crisis years. Same happens with reconnection and reconciliation, we know more than we did, but still not enough.
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You're so right Anjae.
There is so much more to learn from when this site began. It was in it's infancy.
I truly believe these crisis's last a lot longer then originally thought.
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We may not have any firsthand ones, but I recall a recent post where someone mentioned an MLCer they know of who reached out to the LBS after 15 years with the OW. I'm sure there have to be others of really long duration.
If your MIL is still clings to the lies she told herself and the lies OM told her, she may not be fully cooked? 10 years after divorce is a long time. Many, if not most, LBS have long moved on 10 years after divorce or BD. Your FIL did what he had to do. He could not knew how much long his MLCer crisis was going to last of if it was ever to end.
What is interesting with your MIL, and with the MLCers of some HS male LBS is that we are start to see female MLCers whose Replay and crisis take many years and not what used to be thought, that women's crisis were much shorter than men's ones.
I'm wondering now (in the case of MIL) if it isn't a form of brain damage or brain washing. The guilt and shame have always been there, since the day I met her.
That has never changed. A restless, wandering spirit..... but a very kind one. I wish I could have met the version she was before all that happened.
I don't know how long it takes someone to believe a lie, but I can see her doing anything to believe those lies and keep them going.... the alternative is to look at herself (and she's ALWAYS hated doing that).
This seems to be a reoccurring theme with the long term MLC stories.
How sad someone will lie to themselves their whole life, and die...... covered in lies. Terrible.
It does make me wonder, the really long MLC'ers..... it's not like they will call up and say "hey, I'm out of the tunnel.... come get me". I'd imagine they pop out, the world has changed, and they crawl off into the dark and wait to die. I really get that from my MIL. She can't make amends, she can't look at herself, after 30 years she still fuels her life with distractions, and obsessed with convincing herself that she's a good person. She's scared of her siblings, avoids them like the plague. Avoids anything heavy with her daughters (but wishes to have a good relationship with them desperately). I do think there's some sort of brain damage because while she is a sweetheart, there's something noticeably off in that head of hers.
Does any of that strike a chord with long term'ers?
-SS
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Occurs to me that there is a risk too in combining different things.
The affair and our rejection is so painful that it is tempting to use both as markers of MLC 'progress' but if we also remember that their crisis is not about us, that could be a confusing mistake? And Replay is not the totality of the crisis process is it? If the later stages are about insight and some kind of internal resolution, who is to say that this resolution draws them any closer to the life they had before? Rebuilding my own life post-LBS crisis is teaching me that some of the old bit of my old me/life....nothing to do with my MLCer or m...no longer feel as if they fit. Big things as well as small ones.
So, I can imagine an MLCer reaching a point of 'awakening' and realising that the affair was not the right answer...ending it but not reconnecting or communicating with the LBS at all bc their crisis realisation is that they want a different kind of life that fits the post-crisis person they have become. Not in a Replay way but a normal way. We can't know what is in someone else's head after all. Or they replace the affair with a healthier new relationship. Or are trapped in the new reality they have made bc there was an OB, or a Omarriage, or financial dependence....but no longer in crisis. It is worth reminding ourselves that THEIR recovery from THEIR crisis may simply be nothing to do with any kind of change towards either the AP or LBS?
And as Nas says, and for those of us with vanishers we probably all start to assume this, that as awful as the affair and rejection feel to us or as awful as ow/om often seems, the relationship evolves into something of more substance and fits who they become after their crisis. That must happen in some cases. If you have some kind of contact bc of kids etc, I imagine that you would see some changes in their behaviour generally from crisis version to post-crisis version...but if there is no contact, it doesn't mean it isn't happening just bc the LBS doesn't see it. Jmo.
And on the issue of time, there are quite a few old timers - think karmirtsaghik was a recent one? - who get long letters of regret and remorse years and years later from MLCers who for whatever practical and emotional reason did not try to reach out as they started to recover. Anecdotally the AP does seem to be part of the landscape of crisis and most MLCers do seem to eventually regret it....but of course we can only know how they feel if they communicate and many may not. Or they end up with a half-cooked post crisis version bc of their own sense of shame and helplessness a bit like Standing's MiL...no longer in crisis per se...but some kind of sad in between.
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Just on the subject of them "awakening" after many years; I know of Dragonfly's H, who has now done so after something like 12 years; the path to reconciliation isn't easy, but it's happening.
My name gets brought up here sometimes, my MLCer is one who has gone from OW to OW; I have said before that I think he is living the consequences of his crisis; he may not be in the deepest throes of it any more after more than a decade, but he is living a new reality, yes there is an Omarriage, and from what I understand financial dependence as well.
Which is difficult for a man who used to be financially successful and well regarded in his profession.
All of his crisis wasn't about the OWs; there were many other factors; he left his job, he lost huge amounts of money doing other things, there is plenty more.
My own view is that he was pretty much a poster boy for MLC, and that in the earlier years it was pretty textbook, and not even that horrible if the stories here are anything to go by. There were many times when he could have woken up and said "I want my life back"; he didn't do that for whatever reason, very possibly because friends may have told him it couldn't be done. And he felt guilty not only about me, but about they many other things he screwed up, and the longer it went on, the more there was to feel guilty about, hence it was easier to run.
And in the company he now keeps there was plenty of opportunity to run.
Over the years I saw so many instances of "almost" reaching out, starting to, and then pulling back hugely. That was usually after he had spoken to someone else, either an alternative therapist or a "friend"; so many people just say "that ship has sailed, you can't go back, she'll be a b**ch", and so on.
He once told me that he had thought about it, but that there were "too many resentments". He has also often spoken as if it were the other way round, as if I had left him -- he even once said that he tried to behave badly so that I would kick him out; in his own mind he may well feel that he is so horrible that I would do so. Again, that way he doesn't have to face himself.
He told me that he felt "not good enough"; which I know is a standard feeling for those in crisis, however he said it was me who "made" him feel that way; perhaps the OW doesn't. Or maybe she does, but he goes along with it because he doesn't see an alternative that he feels he can do.
And the role of the OW(s) in all this? At first for him it was just a clean slate -- he felt that with someone, anyone new he could be whoever he wanted to be, there wouldn't be any hurts or resentments. He of course found out that each r came with "issues", but again, didn't choose to come back to me. That may well have been because he still felt that what he did was unforgivable, and he thought, assumed, whatever, that I would hold it over him forever. Even though I said otherwise it was pretty clear that he didn't believe it.
The latest OW may well be the one who thinks he is marvellous and doesn't ask questions, she may well have her own reasons for that. Our children haven't met her, my MLCer says that he has "accepted" that he doesn't have a life with them.
I am not at all sure if he has "chosen" a new life to suit the person he has become, or if he is just living the life he finds himself in; he used to frequently tell me that he felt guilty; he has more recently said that to our children, (although they see each other so infrequently that even that was over a year ago), and told my D that it was a mess, but when she said "so fix it", he just said "how?"
And she of course couldn't answer, and it isn't her job to do so.
One thing that does resonate with my situation is that it is said that MLCers go along with whoever is making the decisions; my H is now with someone who does that, and he may just find it easier.
Whatever his truth is, one thing I do know is that he continues to blame circumstances rather than look inward, and he has people in his life who enable that.
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I know I'm late in the thread here, very interesting discussion.
I'm surprised addiction hasn't come up yet (unless I missed it).
I often called The Leaver the trophy carrying MLCer, he fits every stereotype to the extreme (Harley Davidson, red sports car, young blonde coworker, the list goes on and on and on)
Is there a difference between MLC and addictions? I'm not so sure.
History:
When I met my future husband, we were teenagers. He was addicted to cocaine.
He had many issues due to that addiction that led him to quit, the biggest one being a gun in his face b/c of a bad deal.
So he quit and now life would get better, right?
No. New addictions emerged over the years;
Let's see...
Alcohol, bottles of hard liquor a day. quit at 23.
Food. Put on 80 lbs in one year. quit food (lol) at 24-25
Exercise. Ate only one pickle a day (weird, I know) Lost 60 lbs in 2 months.
Started eating again, put on about 50 lbs in one year.
Started drinking again, b/c he could "handle it now."
Quit 5 years later b/c he was hiding (not very good at it) that he was drinking more than a liter of hard liquor a day.
Switched to Marijuana for about a year.
Switched to cigars,
then chewing tobacco,
Diet Coke (about 24 cans a day)
back to food, exercise yo-yo...
Nasal spray, Q-tips, working, shopping, picking at his eyebrows, nail biting, gum chewing... these things seems normal but he switched from one to another and compulsively obsessed about these things until he switched to something else.
He never denied that he was extreme, we both used to say he had an "addictive personality"
What I didn't know, and never in a million years thought would be possible, that young girls would be an addiction. Not sure why I was so confident that sex addiction was not on the table, just naive, I guess.
Anyways, his "addictive personality" started to accelerate after a few of our friends died (suicides and drug overdoses).
Handfuls of "men" vitamins a day, 3 hours of exercise a day on top of 50-60 hours of work (how did he find time to date?), guns (this was new), tattoos, back to playing in a band (over 50K spent on music equipment) etc.
Nothing was working. In his head, there must be an outside answer to why he was feeling miserable inside. He even said to me a few months before Bomb drop that he had everything a man could ask for, a beautiful family, a wife that he loved (his words), a great career, all the material things he wanted, but then he wanted to drive into a tree. :o
So here comes the young blonde coworker that gives him attention. His heart races,... they start an affair,... finally, he can feel excitement again, that's it! He found the answer to his misery. The only thing in his life he hadn't changed was his wife of almost 30 years. He's happy when he's with the new one, so the old one MUST be the reason he is miserable inside.
So he dumps me and runs...
So... "MLCer in an affair - does this help or hinder their journey through the crisis?"
Personally, I think it's just another addiction. Does Heroine help or hinder the addict? Maybe.
Maybe it helps them hit rock bottom, so they can climb out OR it kills them.
Six years after he left, we just messaged each other. He told me he had a "bad relapse a year ago" with drinking but "fought through it with support from very good people". I told him he was a dry drunk. That his issues would never subside until he addressed them directly. He agreed but he is "proud that he made it through"...
So it's over now? He "fixed" his issues for the final time?
What do you think?
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So it's over now? He "fixed" his issues for the final time?
What do you think?
No words needed...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l3vR2Dr1As9J002T6/giphy.gif)
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It does make me wonder, the really long MLC'ers..... it's not like they will call up and say "hey, I'm out of the tunnel.... come get me". I'd imagine they pop out, the world has changed, and they crawl off into the dark and wait to die. I really get that from my MIL. She can't make amends, she can't look at herself, after 30 years she still fuels her life with distractions, and obsessed with convincing herself that she's a good person. She's scared of her siblings, avoids them like the plague. Avoids anything heavy with her daughters (but wishes to have a good relationship with them desperately). I do think there's some sort of brain damage because while she is a sweetheart, there's something noticeably off in that head of hers.
It's been 5 years since BD and I can see my wife going this direction. The section I highlighted describes her perfectly.
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It does make me wonder, the really long MLC'ers..... it's not like they will call up and say "hey, I'm out of the tunnel.... come get me". I'd imagine they pop out, the world has changed, and they crawl off into the dark and wait to die. I really get that from my MIL. She can't make amends, she can't look at herself, after 30 years she still fuels her life with distractions, and obsessed with convincing herself that she's a good person. She's scared of her siblings, avoids them like the plague. Avoids anything heavy with her daughters (but wishes to have a good relationship with them desperately). I do think there's some sort of brain damage because while she is a sweetheart, there's something noticeably off in that head of hers.
This describes FIL(RIP) to the T.... right down to the "crawling into the dark and waiting to die" because that is exactly what he did in the end...
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From my own situation I can say that addictions definitely played a role, and what Nah said about the OW (or OP, actually) being the "answer" to their misery also resonates, and yes, it may well be another addiction.
I left it out of this discussion as I was separating it from the OW. The OW in this case may not realise what his issues are, or she may know and say that it was all because he was so unhappy with me, who knows. She may not even care. Best not to even speculate, I think.
He said he felt such relief when he "realised" that the whole problem was me, that there was nothing wrong with him, no depression, nothing else, the misery was all due to me....
He may well still believe that, as he may have convinced himself that it is my fault he doesn't really have a relationship with the children, and much else. My children have told me that he does seem to find a way to blame me; he once famously told our D that I ruined his relationship with OW5 (I had never met her, never talked about her, and so on).
As to the OW? I don't know if this one is another addiction, or if this one just offered another convenient way out of having to face himself (or is that the same thing?); I would have thought an OP had a purpose if it helps them to see that we aren't the problem, or if it helps them to hit the proverbial rock bottom and decide (key word there: decide) to seek help/get better; as it stands I just keep out of the way.
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I have never heard RCR say that, Mego.
That most get through it within a few years?
Where did she say that? Maybe you can refer me to that article.
Thunder,
The article in question was "An Affair Down Alienator is an Advantage to a Stander." In it she says,
Remember that MLC is a journey and that your MLCer will likely come through the tunnel within a few years. I know that seems like a long time, but it is what it is.
I never forgot that (not unlike most of what she's written!)
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I'm surprised addiction hasn't come up yet (unless I missed it).
I often called The Leaver the trophy carrying MLCer, he fits every stereotype to the extreme (Harley Davidson, red sports car, young blonde coworker, the list goes on and on and on)
Is there a difference between MLC and addictions? I'm not so sure.
Addictions has come up very briefly Nah,,,,
From Post #55:
I’m not convinced he working anything out in that relationship and think it’s purely based on addiction and a need to avoid himself and his demons.
This is MLC in a nutshell. Addiction is often, if not always an aspect of MLC. The addiction helps them keep unconsciously distance from their unresolved issues.
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I think another important question to ask ourselves, particularly for those ''in MLC'' for over a decade or more....
When is it still a ''MLC'' and not just a new lifestyle choice?
Are we the one's who get to determine that? If so, are we still claiming they are in MLC because we can't accept reality?
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What Mort said
I don't believe that anyone is in MLC for over a decade.
I believe it's denial/wishful thinking.
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Would you like to start a new thread, Anon? :)
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Standing, in a way, my aunt is a long term MLCer. She never had OM nor destroyed the marriage, but she told her boyfriend endless lies about her mother, my grandmother. She bought her own lies, he also did. He is my age, more than 20 years younger than her. She also sold him many lies about the rest of the family.
The lies about my grandmother had mostly stop since she die and the ones my aunt told about herself haven't been much spoken since she had a stroke last year. The whole family used to stare at my aunt in disbelief of the things she used to say. She is still with the boyfriend, she no longer have what could be considered MCL behaviours, even because the effects of cancer and the stroke do not allow for it, but she and MLC partner never separated.
It is a huge mistake to remain with a MLC partner, regardless of the existence of an affair, none of the two people is able to grow properly. As how and why my aunt managed to believe her own lies, who knows.
And Replay is not the totality of the crisis process is it?
No it isn't. Replay is a the last sub-stage of Separation, RCR first stage of MLC. There are three more stages aftewards, Liminality, Rebirth and Re-integration.
If the later stages are about insight and some kind of internal resolution, who is to say that this resolution draws them any closer to the life they had before?
No one, other than pretty much every single story on HS that has a reconnecting/reconciled MLCer and who mentions other MLCers known by the LBS. My real life experience with several MLCers tells the same, they all tried to reconnect with their previous life, the exception being the one like myself whose crisis come after a spouse MLC or because of a normal divorce. But the ones who had a crisis because of a normal divorce remained friends with their ex-spouse.
If a MLCer does not try to make amends of any sort, they are not out of MLC. Try to make amends does not equal reconciliation.
Thank you for the info on Dragonfly's husband, Trust.
Mr J's crisis also isn't all about OW. OW is, in a way, the least of it, even if OW, especially OW2, who go him the lawyers and pusehd fron court, making things much worst. The main issue with Mr J's crisis is his MLC lifestyle and his many adoring fans. Also the fact he had suffered no real consequences.
Addiction has come up, Nah. Not in a major way, but it has. The only thing Mr J could be addicted to since he was a teen is music. He never did drugs or drink (aside for the odd glass) before MLC. Drinking is a MLC thing for him.
Heroin does not help an addict. At first it is said it is fantastic, soon it will start to destroy the person.
When is it still a ''MLC'' and not just a new lifestyle choice?
When MLC behaviour is still present. Monster, etc. An out of MLC person will not monster and will have gained awareness. They no longer consider LBS and often kids, the enemy, they no longer behave like a MLCer. They may have a new life, but their behaviour towards the LBS will change.
No, nothing to do with denial. MLC does last a very long time, including a decade or more.
RCR has not updated many, if not all, of the articles in a very long time. RCR is not the best source for long term MLC, HB is better on the matter.
I truly hope those of you who do not believe MLC does not last 10 or more do not end up with a long term MLCer.
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If you believe, as I do, that the alienator represents the person the MLCer had difficulty with during their childhood (my wife's om is very much like her abusive, narcissistic deceased father and her crisis started shortly after her father died), then the initial purpose of the alienator is to give the MLCer the unconditional love they didn't get during their childhood from the person the alienator represents.
I believe the MLC will progress through stages but the MLCer may not reach every stage and may try multiple alienators before moving on to the next stage.
Stage 1- the MLCer believes the alienator loves them unconditionally, thus fulfilling their fantasy of making the difficult childhood person love them unconditionally.
Stage 2 - alienators are just as broken as the difficult person from the MLCer's childhood, meaning the alienator is not capable of unconditionally loving the MLCer. In stage 2 the MLCer comes to realize the alienator doesn't really love them unconditionally. At this point the MLCer may search for another alienator or may enter limbo.
Stage 3 - the beginning of the end of the MLC. The MLCer begins to realize that it isn't their fault that the alienator (difficult person from childhood) doesn't (didn't) love them. The MLCer slowly accepts that they aren't (weren't) the problem and they begin to work on developing self love and self esteem.
Stage 4 - the MLCer accepts who and what they are and have been, decides that they are ok, and the MLC is over.
The purpose of the alienator is to allow the MLCer to work through their childhood problems which is why just any alienator won't work. The MLCer has to leave the LBS because the LBS is usually the opposite of the difficult person from the MLCer's childhood so the LBS can't help the MLCer work through their childhood problems.
The ironic thing about this crisis is that many of the LBSes on this forum do seem to love the MLCer unconditionally or else we wouldn't still be standing after so much time has passed, but that love isn't good enough because the LBS doesn't and can't represent the person who damaged the MLCer.
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New thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10907.new#new