Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Rollercoasterider on July 05, 2019, 10:56:13 PM
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What do you think it means to Pave the Way?
OR
How do you define Paving the Way?
What do you believe it entails?
I'm asking because I have seen a lot of misunderstandings of this concept and would like to write a blog post about it--once I get the new blog's email sending system set up. So I want to address some specific misunderstandings or even questions. I've already started writing the post based on what I've read in posts, but would like a wider response to see how widespread any misunderstanding may be.
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Kindness. Consideration. Shown and communicated empathy.
I think all these happen with genuine words, along with actions.
Doesn't have to be big, just things which are important to them.
Don't expect anything in return or that they even notice. I think they notice everything but it conflicts with the story they tell themselves (maybe elves did it!!!)
-SS
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I'm glad you are revisiting it bc I think some people believe it means you can 'Nice them back'. And there is very little anecdotal evidence to support that and sometimes the cost to the LBS is very high. I have never really understood the purpose of it but I chose to try hard to treat my spouse with respect and all the grace I could muster bc of who he was and who I am. As far as I could tell, that influenced him not a jot but it helped me hang on to who I was regardless.
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I think it is intended to mean that we should try to be the best version of ourselves we can be. To live well and honestly and remain compassionate when we interact with our spouses. To welcome positive contact but to maintain boundaries of respect on both sides.
In practice, with a very hurt lbs, hoping for a return and putting that need and the very understandable need for contact with the mlc spouse above everything else, it can mean losing boundaries and keeping oneself open to being hurt by not detaching and telling oneself one is paving the way.
I think people often forget or are in too much pain to understand just how clear you were, RCR, about boundaries for your own health in your own case. Or sometimes people have spouses who are behaving in a really quite disordered way and then boundaries are really important.
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I took it to mean, in the beginning they are still very unsure of themselves. They are confused, do they go or do they stay? One foot in, one foot out. It's a time where you can plant seeds because they are still listening.
It's a time, before they go into the tunnel, where what you say to them, or how you act towards them, may have an effect down the road. It may be things they start to remember when they are coming out of their fog. They may remember the kindness you showed them, the support and patience.
Even just a "I have faith in you that you will figure this out."
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This is how I understood ‘Paving the Way’ early in my LBS journey.
It is important to note that it wasn’t PTW itself so much, but ‘for whom’ and ‘for what’ that I focussed on.
I interpreted PTW as being for MLCer.
I interpreted PTW as being for an outcome, namely, reconciliation.
As a newbie, my intention was get my H love me again and return to marriage and Paving the Way sounded like the best title for ‘how to get your MLCer back’ handbook.
(From my readings of threads, especially those of newbies, I’m not alone in this way of thinking.)
‘Perfect! Now I can do something to fix this MLC mess’ was my thinking. That is a nicer and kinder expression than the cold truth about what I was trying to do - attempting to manipulate another person in an attempt to bend him to my personal goal; often pretending who I was not; shaping my time and effort to suit what I thought were his needs and wants; bending backwards to make myself appear as an attractive force to him.
Not a flattering observation of myself.
This way of looking at PTW placed H and reconciliation smack in the middle of my life.
‘Hey, am I doing what I’m doing to stage someone else’s comeback to whatever? H can pave his own way, thank you.’ dawned on me once I recovered some wits.
My personal interpretation of PTW changed then. Instead of Paving the Way for someone else and with an objective, namely, reconciliation, it became about paving my own way. .
From then on, PTW meant to me:
- Being my authentic self. For example, be kind and compassionate because that’s who I am, and not because of any ulterior motive to woo him back.
- It is about building my own path, not labouring to build a road for H, just in case he might walk on it toward me and M.
Perhaps the best way to ‘pave the way’ is to focus on LBS’s own healing, learning and growing. If MLCer ever opens his eyes to LBS, he will see a strong, resilient, self-sufficient, empathetic, authentic person who overcame one of the worst trials in her life and living every day with joy and thankfulness. In my view, that is the essence of Paving the Way and being the Light House. ‘Paving’ is a state of ‘being’, not a ways and means, in my view.
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Paving the way means to me to make sure that I put up no obstacles to turning towards me, maintaining healthy boundaries that protect me from further damage yet do not make it impossible to contact me in an honest, safe manner.
It means making sure I am honest, respectful and sincere in all my interactions whether with my MLCer or with any other person of my acquaintance.
It means being committed to being consistent, calm and constant in all my interactions. Being honest to who I am and what I believe in so that there is no doubt as to where I stand.
This towards anyone and everyone, not only my h.
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I'm glad this thread started. I remember being very confused about "Paving the way" as a newbie.. How to find a good balance between PTW and being a doormat.. And also confused by the constant message that there was nothing we could do about their crisis and yet, PTW was important?
In the end what I did was to take the emotion out of our interactions. Treated him with compassion and respect, showed him it was safe to talk to me, not in a buddy kind of way, just calm and light conversations so he didn't feel attacked when he interacted with me. I also showed him by my actions that I would be open to talk to him in the future but I was letting him go to do what he felt he needed to do.. And then I moved to the side and off he went.
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Good discussion -
Paving the way is all about unconditional love.
Being there for them when/if they need you.
Holding your tongue when you want to say nasty things.
Being patient, kind, understanding.
Others refer to it as being the "lighthouse".
That being said -- it is NOT about being a doormat or allowing yourself to be abused.
It's treating your spouse as you would want to be treated.
Sea
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Early days, I too thought paving the way was a means to getting my H back: respond to each and every contact with "fake it till you make it" positive responses, regardless of the circumstances and how detrimental his actions/choices were to me. "Make him see that you are a source of light, you love him despite his actions, you are the one who has been and will always be there for him..."
I'm 4-plus years out. On Monday, 4 days before the 4th anniversary of his abruptly moving out, I got a message out of the blue on Messenger (I still don't know his phone number or email address - not even sure I have his correct mailing address for that matter).
First contact since my parents died in February (I contacted him when my mother died, 3 weeks later he messaged me when he heard my father died. Very alien, distant message, he told me to "hang in there.")
It was what in the very early days I would have considered a very positive contact:
"Hi. How are you? How is your health?"
There once was a time when I would have seized on this message as proof he cared, that he was "peaking out," that I needed to respond nicely to "pave the way" for him to know I hadn't given up on him.
But I've spent the last 3 years receiving ZERO financial help from him and barely hearing from him while he's built himself a new life.
In that time:
I was diagnosed with cancer and endured chemo, radiation and multiple surgeries - he never checked in on me , not once. (though he was receiving updates on me from his mother). While I was in chemo, he got a new phone number and the longest we went without contact was a year, and when he did contact, he apologized for the lack of contact by saying that "My phone went through the washing machine last year." ???
He euthanized our beloved dog and I found out about it on Facebook. When I contacted him to ask for the dog's collar, he responded like a toddler who knew mommy was mad. He promised to send it. He never did. (That was a year ago).
My mother died, then three weeks later, my father died. While attempting to plan my father's funeral (and sell his car, which some jerk promptly stole the license plates off), I was also dealing with some stressful changes in the status of my cancer.
All of that, while still managing to do freelance work enough to pay my bills and survive.
All of that, with NO help from him and him changing his phone number and email (and I think his address), making my ability to contact him extremely difficult.
"Hi. How are you? How is your health?"
How would one respond to that? I have NOTHING right now. Financially deceived before BD, left behind at BD, used up most funds on a lawyer pre-cancer, completely abandoned post-cancer, already in financial ruin and then cancer completely finished me off.
Again, early days, I would have responded to his message positively and calmly, thinking I was "paving the way."
Now I think about myself first. What good will responding do ME? He is still controlling the contact by sending a message via the only avenue HE's left open and expecting me to respond via that avenue while still having no other way to reach him.
It's a VERY difficult thing to attempt to rebuild your life after MLC.
It's become even more difficult for me to need to completely rebuild from the ground up, while not even knowing how much more life I have. I recently read an article about how cancer robs you of the ability to plan for longer than 3 months at a time (the time in between scans).
Yet, I have NO CHOICE but to rebuild and I am in a place where I have to plan for the long term while living in a situation where I've been essentially robbed of the ability to plan long term. I live in 3-month increments, but have to rebuild from the ground up for a life I hope will be many years longer. I believe it's a unique position to be in, and one that I would not wish on anyone.
If anything, I'm paving the way for him to have the opportunity to think about what he's done by NOT responding to his cold, oddly worded out of the blue message that does nothing to address the fact that I am struggling beyond imagination and he's done nothing to help.
But I no longer worry about paving the way - he has to come to realizations about what he's done to me on his own, if he's ever going to come to those realizations. He may never.
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This is how I understood ‘Paving the Way’ early in my LBS journey.
It is important to note that it wasn’t PTW itself so much, but ‘for whom’ and ‘for what’ that I focussed on.
I interpreted PTW as being for MLCer.
I interpreted PTW as being for an outcome, namely, reconciliation.
As a newbie, my intention was get my H love me again and return to marriage and Paving the Way sounded like the best title for ‘how to get your MLCer back’ handbook.
(From my readings of threads, especially those of newbies, I’m not alone in this way of thinking.)
‘Perfect! Now I can do something to fix this MLC mess’ was my thinking. That is a nicer and kinder expression than the cold truth about what I was trying to do - attempting to manipulate another person in an attempt to bend him to my personal goal; often pretending who I was not; shaping my time and effort to suit what I thought were his needs and wants; bending backwards to make myself appear as an attractive force to him.
Not a flattering observation of myself.
This way of looking at PTW placed H and reconciliation smack in the middle of my life.
‘Hey, am I doing what I’m doing to stage someone else’s comeback to whatever? H can pave his own way, thank you.’ dawned on me once I recovered some wits.
My personal interpretation of PTW changed then. Instead of Paving the Way for someone else and with an objective, namely, reconciliation, it became about paving my own way. .
From then on, PTW meant to me:
- Being my authentic self. For example, be kind and compassionate because that’s who I am, and not because of any ulterior motive to woo him back.
- It is about building my own path, not labouring to build a road for H, just in case he might walk on it toward me and M.
Perhaps the best way to ‘pave the way’ is to focus on LBS’s own healing, learning and growing. If MLCer ever opens his eyes to LBS, he will see a strong, resilient, self-sufficient, empathetic, authentic person who overcame one of the worst trials in her life and living every day with joy and thankfulness. In my view, that is the essence of Paving the Way and being the Light House. ‘Paving’ is a state of ‘being’, not a ways and means, in my view.
Absolutely everything Acorn said.
Took all the words right out of my mouth.
Perfectly said.
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I guess the issue for me is Paving the Way to What?
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I would have saved myself some time and energy if I had treated ‘Paving the Way’ as an appendage to ‘Mirror work’. And, in much smaller font. :P
In some ways, ‘paving the way’ is an escape clause for a chronic fixer like me. Not saying any of us is. ;D
I guess the issue for me is Paving the Way to What?
All the way to Rome, AKA reconciliation. That was my personal interpretation.
Hello, my name is Acorn and I’m a fixer.
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I interpreted it as paving the way for the MLCER to possibly come back by creating a road they would want to travel. As I walk along my path, I try (do not always succeed) to be kind and considerate, understanding with boundaries, and compassionate. During the time XH intersects my path, whether at the beginning, all the way through or at the end, I am courteous, but do not accept poor behavior in a calm way, much as with my children. I definitely don't do everything he wants, but sometimes do with pleasure and hold my ground firmly, without anger, when I must say no. I have, in my mind, paved the way for him to join me in my journey if he so desires, but if he doesn't my path takes me where I need to go. And even if he joins me, that doesn't mean reconciliation. It means we can tolerate or maybe enjoy each other's company. I have not built a wall behind me, or made sure he could not join me, though those are valid choices just not paving the way.
That's how I saw it. I'm not standing, btw, just open to all possibilities, atm.
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I too see Paving the Way as a standing action to create an easy path for the MLCer to travel back into the marriage. I think it applies to clingers more than anyone. You don't provide any resistance to reconciliation, you artfully place truth darts to make them thinky, and you form your life in such a way that they still have a valid re-entry point.
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I too see Paving the Way as a standing action to create an easy path for the MLCer to travel back into the marriage. I think it applies to clingers more than anyone. You don't provide any resistance to reconciliation, you artfully place truth darts to make them thinky, and you form your life in such a way that they still have a valid re-entry point.
I think by this definition, I agree it applies to clingers. And possibly those who are financially responsible.
It's very hard to pave the way for someone who is willfully abandoning you and leaving you with nothing and not acknowledging that they've done so. I think most LBS with that kind of MLCer (like me) aren't standing, but supposing one were, it would be near impossible to pave the way, a) because they've vanished and b) when they do pop up, important issues about finances can't be ignored. They can't just show up out of nowhere and have a pleasant conversation as if there's not some giant starving, homeless elephant in the room.
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I know what is in the articles about Paving The Way say, but for me it had no meaning. By BD and early times were years before HS existed. I have never heard of Paving The Way until I got here, years down the road.
Being here, Paving The Way always seemed to be like one more thing that put stress upon an already very stressed LBS. Especially because Paving The Way is more important early on. Early on LBS tend to be too shocked or in survival mode.
It has also confused me why Paving The Way is so important since most marriages will not reconcile. LBS wellbeing always seemed more important to me.
Going by HS and real life, a MLCer wanting back does not seem to be related to Paving The Way. Some LBS did nothing by Pave The Way and their MLCer is not back, others never Paved The Way and the MLCer is either back or wanting back.
It is not possible to Pave The Way with Vanishers. Paving The Way may be something that is useful for those who were standing early on and keep standing, but may not be of much use for the rest of us.
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My view of paving the way has nothing to do with paving the way for my H to come back. To me it means paving the way for me and my kids to a better quality of life. It’s paving the way for me to look back at the paved path without any regrets and be proud of my actions and strength at getting to where I need to be for me & my girls- weather with H or not. It’s more important to me that my girls grow up to be proud of me for navigating this nightmare and doing my best to ensure they grow up to be secure, confident & happy adults despite MLC. Treating MLCer with compassion and kindness isn’t about paving the way back to me but paving the way for me and my kids forward. That does not mean being a walk over or allowing MLCer to abuse me in order pave the way.
TBH I don’t like the term ‘pave the way’ and what it implies. Peoples understanding is varied and it’s a very ambiguous term and in my opinion contradicts the message to take eyes off MLCer and on to us.
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I agree with BS. I think the term is a bit ambiguous and can be a bear pit for newbies bc it is very easy to read into it what we desperately want to believe as true and possible immediately after BD.
Paving the way to a better healthier LBS future, regardless of what our h/w does, is probably more helpful. And it includes acting towards them in a way that fits who we are and want to be.
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When I first discovered HS, there was more discussion concerning "paving the way" and what that means. Thinking about this today, I dug up "The Lighthouse" which contains some of my personal ideas concerning how to be there for him. Maybe it applies, maybe not but for those who have not ever seen this, I found it helpful to understand what I could do to keep the door open for him.
Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 05:21:16 AM »
• Quote
The Lighthouse
Your spouse is in huge conflict. The good news is; and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now. The competition that we believe exists with the Other Person is a shallow, empty reflection of God's light in this world. It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush.
Their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now. Though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong, they do not like what they are doing.
Their actions toward you, the children, the Other Person, and themselves, as well as God, keep them from engaging in any type of real interaction with any real depth and truth.
All they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life. Yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lies down, regardless of whom is next to them.
They are the living cliche of 'no matter where you go, there you are.'
They are lost to themselves.
And you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home, even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing the beacon.
You become the lighthouse. You fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary.
Just visualize yourself as a lighthouse.
You offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get. You invite them toward it. Let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way.
You cannot trust them right now, but you know that, so they can't hurt you right now. They will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better.
You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions. Set clear boundaries that the Other Person is not part of your children's lives...without Love Busting. Offer alternatives that let them see the children, but be clear that the Other Person is to have no access to them. You fill the children's lives with stability. They deserve it and need it more than anything else.
Do not discuss or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements. Seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly.
Your spouse is very lonely and sad right now, but that is ok. No one can stay very long in that chaos. Remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos, and eventually they will see that you are the only one who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most.
Be the lighthouse.
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This is from the DB website.
I do not think we have this posted anywhere but if we do please, make me aware of it and I will remove this.
I also belive this is written from someone else not on the DB website.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 05:29:01 AM by OldPilot »
Report to moderator Logged
M-56,W-56
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When I first discovered HS, there was more discussion concerning "paving the way" and what that means. Thinking about this today, I dug up "The Lighthouse" which contains some of my personal ideas concerning how to be there for him. Maybe it applies, maybe not but for those who have not ever seen this, I found it helpful to understand what I could do to keep the door open for him.
Re: Resources: Standing Actions
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 05:21:16 AM »
• Quote
The Lighthouse
Your spouse is in huge conflict. The good news is; and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now. The competition that we believe exists with the Other Person is a shallow, empty reflection of God's light in this world. It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush.
Their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now. Though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong, they do not like what they are doing.
Their actions toward you, the children, the Other Person, and themselves, as well as God, keep them from engaging in any type of real interaction with any real depth and truth.
All they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life. Yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lies down, regardless of whom is next to them.
They are the living cliche of 'no matter where you go, there you are.'
They are lost to themselves.
And you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home, even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing the beacon.
You become the lighthouse. You fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary.
Just visualize yourself as a lighthouse.
You offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get. You invite them toward it. Let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way.
You cannot trust them right now, but you know that, so they can't hurt you right now. They will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better.
You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions. Set clear boundaries that the Other Person is not part of your children's lives...without Love Busting. Offer alternatives that let them see the children, but be clear that the Other Person is to have no access to them. You fill the children's lives with stability. They deserve it and need it more than anything else.
Do not discuss or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements. Seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly.
Your spouse is very lonely and sad right now, but that is ok. No one can stay very long in that chaos. Remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos, and eventually they will see that you are the only one who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most.
Be the lighthouse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from the DB website.
I do not think we have this posted anywhere but if we do please, make me aware of it and I will remove this.
I also belive this is written from someone else not on the DB website.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 05:29:01 AM by OldPilot »
Report to moderator Logged
M-56,W-56
Turns out this was from Marriage Builders and I found the author, named ark^^
here is a link to the post
https://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php/topics/1105251/re-does-coming-home-then-going-back-to-other-person-prolong-an-affair.html#Post1105251
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I spent a lot of time confused between paving the way and cake eating at first.
It took me a while (and a bit of MLC experience) to flesh out the difference.
I think at times the actions can look very similar depending on where the MLCer and LBSer are.
Letting your MLCer come round for Sunday dinner, because you want to piss off the OW, you miss him...you want x, y , z.... is probably cake eating. You have a motive. You expect a result. You hope this will buy them over. That is being a door mat (and slightly manipulative), the MLCer benefits, generally at the cost of you/the kids.
Letting your MLCer eat dinner with you and the kids after he spent all day out in the garden is paving the way. You expect nothing in return. It is a common courtesy you would offer anyone who was working hard helping you. You know this will not fix them, or make them come home. You are just showing your children what is the 'kind' and 'polite' thing to do. Not for the MLCer benefit.
This is just one example from my experience but I think with a clinging boomerang the premise is the same. From the outside ''dinner with the MLCer'' looks the same, but the circumstance and premise are very different.
In general I am polite to him, I treat him how I would any distant friend, I don't stop him seeing his kids, I don't expect anything from him (intentionally). If he text me, I reply like I would anyone. I no longer reach out in text for him, and that took a very long time to stop. If I don't text him, he generally texts me within a day or so. He never waits very long. So paving the way here is just being a nice human being, regardless of the fact they probably don't deserve it after their actions. It's more about you than it is about them.
If he is over to see the kids and starts to spill his guts, I listen, and I joke as I normally would...but I keep my true feelings and the nasty remarks to myself. So in part 'paving the way' is controlling our anger and rage about the injustice, and keeping our lips zipped at times we just want to say ''Well who's fault is that?!'' ???.
I don't offer him to come to anything with me and the kids, but if he asks to come, or asks us out..I always allow it. Not for his benefit but for the kids. I will never deny him a relationship with his children because I know how damaging that can be. But at the same time, if he asks us to come (specifically including me) I know that this is his way of...trying out the waters so to speak. He is conflicted in his head about the story that we 'don't get on' and 'I am so evil' and 'a matron'...then we go out and he has a great time and the story doesn't align. I think those moments are important and definitely part of 'paving the way'. I believe they need moments like this where the story they tell themselves don't match reality, otherwise how can they ever question themselves?
In general there is nothing we can do to 'bring them home', but I think there is a hell of a lot we can do to drive them away. Paving the way is just about containing our pain and anger, and treating them like you would anyone else.... Yet allowing an opening for them to approach you when/if they decide to.
I think those openings come when we least expect it. A desperate phone call from 'prisoner'..that you listened to without judgement. An extended chat in the car park at a kids function where they ask your advice or opinion on something. A family day out when you catch them staring at you with the look they used to have.
If you can manage to contain all your emotion and rage to allow these moments to happen organically (not try and manufacture them) then eventually when/if they do wake up....reconnecting will be easier for them to face. And what is paving the way if not making the road to re-connection easier?
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Great description Morte. I have to agree.
The lighthouse piece also resonated with me and my situation.
I think an offer of kindness from me might have been the catalyst for H's latest breakup with ow actually. I had dropped H off at the airport last Sunday for work and then text him about something to do with our finances on Thursday afternoon and found out that he was flying back into our town. I work 10 mins away from the airport and finished an hour after he landed so I offered him a lift back to his place.
He was fairly emotional and a bit drunk and I found out that he'd broken up with ow a couple of hours earlier (about the time of my text?). He apologised to me on that trip home and was in awe over the fact that I would still offer to pick him up from work after all that he has done to me. I had no way of knowing how the offer of a lift home would land on him that day but it seemed to be one of those times where it had a lot of meaning for him. He knew I had no way of knowing what he was thinking about doing (or perhaps had just done) and knew it was just an act of kindness. It's the little things as Morte said.
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Great reading on here.
I agree with an awful lot that has been said on here and will point out those points that struck me personally:
1. The term Paving the Way is ambiguous - as Treasur said - paving the way to what?
2. Clingers probably "benefit" more from any actions arising from paving the way
3. If paving the way is for the LBS's personal growth then let's call it so. Let's remove the concept that it is about eventually restoring the marriage and make it a focus plan for the LBS.
4. If paving the way is about how to treat the MLCer ie set boundaries, truth darts, dark/dim/NC etc....then let's call it so.
Perhaps the term itself isn't ambiguous but the "actions" themselves are too wide and varied to be clear.
Maybe paving the way is both - but then make it so clear that the combination of all the actions that "pave the way" help the LBS with their own growth and their treatment of the MLCer - but not with the concept of restoring the marriage. That as we know has to happen much, much further down the road and ultimately has to become a personal decision whether you're a long time stander or not.
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To me, paving the way, starts with respect. I hope this all makes sense.
As a newbie, I had misconceptions of paving the way. What was it...how do you do it when someone doesn't want to communicate? Sadly I made the mistakes...reaching out...we need to communicate. There is still a family....blah blah blah.
Finally I realized that he didn't want to communicate and pushing myself on him was not paving the way. I had to learn to respect his decision even though I hated it and I didnt agree with it.
Once I did that....once I "didn't pursue"...once I respected his MLC decisions for what they were, then I believe paving the way began.
Realize that I also demanded mutual respect. I am lucky to have a "NICE" mlcer thus far. However, the few times he did go towards monster, I was quick to tell him settle down or I would leave the room and he was respectful enough to calm down.
I think the other part that is important in paving the way is to mimic their actions. Do as they do...
If they distance...leave them alone.
If they contact via text....text them back. If they call...call them back. Just do it at a time that is appropriate for the LBS. Just another form of respect.
Keep communication simple. Don't interject. Listen to them. MLC is all about them...so are the convos. Don't try to tell them how you are doing. It stinks but it can only be temporary. So respect them by letting them focus on what they can focus on...themselves.
Everyone says "don't nice them" I agree with this. However as a newbie it comes off as contradictory because we are not yet detached enough. Don't nice them basically mean don't try and do things for them. Let them alone. Let them take care of themselves. What you need to do is take care of the basics for yourself....food, water, shelter, etc. Pay the bills, take care of the house, eat, exercise, etc. Let them do all that for themselves to not "nicing" to me.
However being nice is different. Being nice is the unconditional love. It is the forgiveness. It is treating them as humans and not animals. It is not name calling or trying to incite drama. It is not throwing the circumstances back at them. It is loving and respecting them even though they are not always treating us the same. It means backing off and giving them what they think they want. It means not being retalitory. Yes you want to blame...it gets you nowhere. It means holding your head up high but not making the MLCer feel subserveant.
Basically...it means learning to let go of the pain and hurt and bitterness and growing so that you can handle the MLCer firmly but lovingly when and only when the opportunities present themself. Other times....backoff.
Paving the way to me evolves as the MLCer changes. At first it was convos when they were cycling. Then it was leaving them alone when they were doing distant. It will contstantly change.
Paving the way is not easy. It means stepping up and being an adult when your world is falling apart. It takes time and as the LBS evolves so will paving the way as the MLCer drawers near then backs away and repeats.
Just an FYI - I had a standard Boomerang. I am sure paving the way is different for Clingers vs Off and Oners vs Vanishers. Perhaps feed back for each type could be helpful.
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An excellent response Sam I Am - absolutely brilliant.
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Fwiw I agree with the point about respect. Even with a vanisher. Bc then it becomes about self respect preventing you reacting in ways that won't serve you longer term and pushing yourself out of denial. Doesn't prevent even a vanisher throwing hand grenades to blow up any Paving stones lol...but self respect matters.
Hmmm Paving the way with a vanisher?
Well, I think that it can be easy to misinterpret when you're in shock and to keep you cycling for a while trying to throw rational olive branches on the rare points of contact. You can end up frantically trying to safeguard things while your MLCer is working very hard to burn them all to the ground. Not so helpful to either one probably.
I do think that behaving like a sane decent human with a vanisher is maybe more about NOT doing things than DOING things with regard to them. So perhaps Paving the way by getting out of the way as quickly as you can? Mitigating the damage perhaps by removing yourself as a target even? Were my xh to ever return to being a healthy adult again, the facts would suggest that - after the first few months of crazy - I was always respectful, honest and rarely vindictive in my responses and that I did not stand in the way of his exit. Maybe that is a different kind of Paving the way? And perhaps in years to come that may help both of us feel rather better about the value of the relationship we used to have.
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I'm a somewhat newbie, so maybe I don't know much. But to me paving the way is a two way street.
I do things (forgiveness, compassion, self-love, self-respect etc) that keep my heart open. Focus here is on me and my wellbeing, I really don't want to turn into yet another grumpy resentful partner, way too many those running wild already.
And I do things that will show respect and love (sometimes tough love) to my MLCr - just because of her. If she ever wakes up and looks at the $h!te that hit the fan, she should see who looked after her and know I'll be always there at least for a good talk.
So basically it's keeping two hearts as open / undamaged as possible.
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I want to thank everyone for their input. This is helping me a lot. When I get closer, I may send some PMs out asking if I can use what you wrote as questions, or quotes, ideas... in the blog post--or series of posts...we will see how much I write and how many subheadings there are :).
Please keep the responses coming!
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I finally got around to reading most of this thread. I agree with most of what I've read on this thread. I've seen paving the way used to describe a lot of actions in many threads though. I'm not always sure I know what paving the way is, but I definetly know what it's not when I see someone describing enabling or even personally degrading actions in the hopes that it will get their spouse to reconsider and come back. When describing what paving the way means, I think it would be helpful to a lot of people to spend just as much time, if not more, describing what it's not.
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I feel this term is not appropriate for a deeply traumatized LBS who doesn't understand what has just happened. I feel unfortunately it can create circumstances that put her in danger, be it physical, emotional, or financial — with longstanding repercussions.
I think that a lot of the language here was created from a more emotionally safe space — terms like "GAL," "pave the way," or "touch and go," which do not acknowledge the deeply traumatic impact of "bomb drop" and unfortunately do little to create the kind of awareness most LBS need from therapists, doctors, and lawyers — not to mention friends and family — that would truly protect them.
I deeply believe the only way to help a LBS in the short and long term is to identify ways to go no contact, quickly find an attorney and file for divorce, and take concrete steps to protect the children and the finances.
I also unfortunately feel that some of what is meant to be encouraging an LBS to recover and feel strong can end up making them feel defeated if not presented with sensitivity to the trauma they have just undergone, and sometimes are continuing to undergo. It is hard for an LBS to feel outgoing and engaged if they are still not feeling safe. Safety on all levels should be the number 1 priority of a site like this.
Instead of "pave the way," I think most LBS would be better off with a specific toolkit to minimize further damage to herself. Many of us have never dealt with a deeply disordered or mentally unwell person before. Validating what they say — or feeling it is on us to somehow make the marriage appealing, when it cannot be emphasized enough that this has to do with psychotic mindset not the marriage — is only going to further harm an LBS.
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I think too it might help to put safety first...emotional and practical and financial.
To encourage LBS to build their own small safe space before they even think about 'paving the way', if only because once they feel safe - whatever that means to them - it is easier for them to make more rational conscious choices.
Divorcing or not is a personal choice and circumstances vary,mbut I think as V says, some way of validating just how traumatic it is and a kind of emergency toolkit link would be a good idea. And much more constructive imho for both the LBS and any evolution in the relationship with the MLC spouse. Less damage is a good thing no matter what happens over the course of the spouses crisis.
Actually maybe someone should start an ideas thread on damage reduction to share painfully learned lessons and tips?
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Whilst I totally take what Velika says...
For me. a divorce would not have been possible because H never left and in UK law, even in the case of adultery, a divorce cannot be granted to the petitioner if the defendant has been living in the home for upto 6 months after the adultery was cited. It is possible to divorce after 2 yrs legal separation and in the home that means living completely separate lives and proving such as both parties have to be willing.
5 yrs is an academic situation and requires neither party to consent; it can just happen. And 6 yrs on we are now reconnecting. Ironic isn't it?
So bear in mind that certain countries do not have the no fault/quickie divorce (although it is coming into Britain - God help us) but living together as roommates is only classed as separation if both parties consent after 2 years.
So some of us who choose not to divorce may not be doing it because we are foolhardy - the law doesn't help us.
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I think Velika your stance is very valid for those who have suffered physical abuse due to their MLCer, or those who have violent and dangerous MLCers.
But I do not think that applies to most cases here, particularly if you want to reconcile.
If you want to move on then by all means go for it.
I would also expect a hard no contact, file for divorce, ''protect the kids'' mentality...might actually hurt the kids in the long run if you have a more mild or moderate MLCer.
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For many people who come to HS, they wish to reconcile with their spouse.
Pave the way is used to give suggestions to those who wish to reconcile of possible things you can do that "might" make it easier to reconcile in the future. There is always the caveat given to "live your life as though they are not coming back" and "that nothing you do or say will make a difference" as well as "this is not about you or the marriage, this is their crisis" and "protect yourself financially".
People who have reconciled often talk about how they treated their spouse during the crisis. Setting boundaries may be one way of paving the way, as it tells your spouse what is acceptable and what is not...like showing a child, even when they don't want a boundary, what is acceptable.
Paving the way gives the LBSer a sense of trying their best to help their MLC turn back home, if that happens in the future.
It doesn't mean pursuing or not meeting your own needs. It does mean acceptance of your spouse's crisis and realization that something is wrong with them.
Paving the way basically is what RCR wrote about regarding agape and unconditional love. It doesn't guarantee anything. It would be how I would want to be treated if I were the one in crisis.
The image of a "lighthouse" is also used, once again for people who wish to reconcile. As we see, many LBSers may feel that way at the beginning of the crisis and decide that this is not something they wish to continue as the years go on. That is the LBSer's choice.
But for those who do wish to reconcile, treating the MLC spouse with some recognition that they are still important, that they can be forgiven, that they are loved....whether or not reconciliation ever happens, may allow peace in the LBSer's life that he/she has done all they can and the rest is in God's hands.
I do not think that using a term such as paving the way is detrimental to the LBSer and I do believe that Hero's Spouse is very supportive of the trauma that we are going through.
If this site doesn't meet your personal needs, then like many other things in life, you take what information does help you and disregard what doesn't.
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I agree with most of what Velika said, specifically the view that first aid for deeply traumatized LBS should receive a lot more attention than ‘pave’, etc.
OP’s welcome note is an excellent start. I have referred to it every morning to remind myself what ‘sanity’ looks like when I first joined.
Maybe a second note regarding ‘First Aid for LBS’ is something to consider? Some practical pointers might be helpful.
I deeply believe the only way to help a LBS in the short and long term is to identify ways to go no contact, quickly find an attorney and file for divorce, and take concrete steps to protect the children and the finances.
By the time you figured out that you are not dealing with MLCer (possibly) but a violent and mentally ill man who abuses and harms his spouse and children, HS is no longer the right fit for you. Sites for abused women may be better.
I totally agree it may be beneficial for some LBS to go NC in some cases. It is a must that everyone should seek to protect kids and finances. However, to suggest that they divorce? I think it might be beyond your scope to suggest that to others.
As you have rightly pointed out, many LBSs could be deeply traumatized and in a vulnerable emotional state. I suggest that they are hardly in any condition to make huge life decisions, such as divorce, when they land in HS.
‘Paving’, etc. advices could well be beyond the newbie’s capacity at that entry point, and they are not even life altering suggestions as yours (divorce) are.
What you have experienced, and I am really sorry for all the suffering..., cannot be equated to other situations. One size does not fit all.
On another note, in general, I think that it is better for us to refrain from making sweeping statements that suggest or imply that ALL could be feeling this, thinking that, what the future will bring, what other’s situation is like, etc. We simply do not know.
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or me. a divorce would not have been possible because H never left and in UK law, even in the case of adultery, a divorce cannot be granted to the petitioner if the defendant has been living in the home for upto 6 months after the adultery was cited. It is possible to divorce after 2 yrs legal separation and in the home that means living completely separate lives and proving such as both parties have to be willing.
I’m not a lawyer and in any case, divorce is a big step, and not one I’m keen to promote if there’s an alternative, but I was under the impression that adultery could not be quoted if the marriage ‘re started’ for over six months since adultery was last confirmed ie if sex etc between spouses had resumed and adultery had stopped. Divorce can be obtained quickly for irreconcilable differences can’t it? And unreasonable behaviour is easily a way of obtaining a quick divorce since all these spouses are behaving unreasonably, even if they aren’ t having an affair. Eg, I cited unreasonable behaviour and it included being unwilling to undergo counselling or to improve the marriage. Anything that isn’t pro relationship can be unreasonable if it means the marriage is an unsatisfying place to be because one partner isn’t playing their part.
I thought the two year wait was if you wanted to keep all information off the record so as not to annoy each other with accusations.
I also agree that trauma affects many lbs. it doesn’t have to be physical violence to do damage and almost all lbs doubt themselves terribly.
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I agree with Acorn though that we should all be more cautious than we sometimes are to not stretch one size into a fits all. Either for LBS or MLC. There are probably core scripts for both but also many differences. And some of those differences like financial risk might make a divorce important to protect oneself. Tbh though my sense is that, even for LBS here who filed, it really takes quite a while to be able to know what is going on and make big decisions like that. I probably would have been better financially if I had filed in Sept 16 when I considered it, but I also understand why emotionally and mentally I couldn't do that. And none of us know the path not taken do we?
I guess what matters most is finding some level of peace and understanding about whatever big choices we do individually make.
Most LBS seem to suffer some level of anxiety or depression for a while post BD.
And it is very hard to make wise important choices if you are experiencing either of these.
Regardless of how things unfold, the kind of emergency self care that deals with anxiety and depression is important it seems to me.
Some LBS will experience longer term depression or PTSD.
That is probably a function of individual history and specific events. I know in my case my immediate response evolved into PTSD bc I was dealing with four things simultaneously; MLC, my father's death, my mother's dementia and cancer. And bc I lost my parents, I also lost my support system. Rightly or wrongly, that was just too much for me. I suspect that I would not have developed PTSD if I had 'only' been dealing with my h's crisis. But again, who knows? That wasn't an available path for me bc that wasn't what happened.
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Most LBS seem to suffer some level of anxiety or depression for a while post BD.
And it is very hard to make wise important choices if you are experiencing either of these.
Regardless of how things unfold, the kind of emergency self care that deals with anxiety and depression is important it seems to me.
Yes, I think many are echoing the same sentiment as you have just written, Treasur.
Sometimes, divorce may be the only recourse to protect oneself and kids, emotionally, physically and financially. Even then, it’s a hefty legal decision not to be taken lightly.
To recommend divorce, wholesale, is not warranted, in my opinion.
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I agree with Acorn though that we should all be more cautious than we sometimes are to not stretch one size into a fits all. Either for LBS or MLC.
There are 4833 members registered on HS and others who read but have never registered. Each situation is different, each person is different.
RCR asked "what do you think it means to pave the way?" not whether or not paving the way was a good or bad thing for the LBSer.
In my "helplessness" to gain any control over my life and from the beginning, I knew I would stand forever, "paving the way" meant that there was something I could control in my world which had been blown up. Perhaps it would not have any difference in the long run, but it also aligned with the person I am....and the way I wanted to treat others.
To protect my financial self, I was able to get a legal separation which allowed me to stay on his medical insurance...that was in 2011, when he divorced me in 2018 I lost that right...had we divorced in 2011 my calculations based upon what I am paying for medical insurance now would be that I would have "lost" $95,094.00 as my monthly payments are $1174.00.
Not everyone's plan allows that, but that was a big factor in the decision that I took in my own situation(to my fellow Canadians who don't live in the US, that would not be an issue for you :))
I did not want to be divorced. The stigma of that word causes me great pain..that is my experience and not others. It also meant that he could not remarry and I often wondered about any women he has had along the way and how they felt that he wasn't "divorced".
I would strongly recommend getting legal advice and if divorce is the only way to protect your financial asset then perhaps that would be the way you would choose to go...but I would not advise that in general..it is a very difficult and personal decision, just like everything else we do to rebuild our lives.
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I'm sorry, these men are sick. Many probably have permanent brain damage. This is deeply sad, but until this is recognized as a true mental illness and we have the protection we need, many of us are on our own.
Yes, agape is a deeply important human value. It means we feel love for all our fellow humans. Does this mean we let them all into our home, trust them with our bank account number, hand our children over to them? No!
Some MLCers are more mild. They don't move out, may just skulk about, hard to live with, not so nice etc. etc. In this case, and if you have children and important shared financial assets, yes, by all means it is up to you and your judgement to hope that they can recover and by not exacerbating the situation, not driving them to more extreme behavior.
I was heavily, heavily coached by my therapist and lawyer on how not to make the situation worse. Other people recommended Out of the Fog website, which is helpful for specifics on how to deal with a disordered person. You can find similar advice on narcissism abuse and psychopathic abuse websites. Is this "paving the way"? Not really. It is more about tailoring your behavior and expectations so that you do not react in a way as if you are dealing with a psychologically/neurologically healthy human being, and to avoid inviting more damage and trauma.
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I'm sorry, these men are sick. Many probably have permanent brain damage. This is deeply sad, but until this is recognized as a true mental illness and we have the protection we need, many of us are on our own.
Yes, agape is a deeply important human value. It means we feel love for all our fellow humans. Does this mean we let them all into our home, trust them with our bank account number, hand our children over to them? No!
And the female Mid-Lifers? What about them? Permanent Brain Damage? Depression? Both? Neither?
The point of the thread is what you consider to be "paving the way" and not, as XYZ noted, whether it is good, bad, or indifferent.
Treasur and Acorn have it right - While there are some general characterizations and "scripts," just like every person is different, every situation is different. Using the broad-brush generalization scheme is counterproductive. Likewise, projection of one's own issues to the situations of others is as well....
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Xyzcf said: RCR asked "what do you think it means to pave the way?" not whether or not paving the way was a good or bad thing for the LBSer.
Trust xyz to yank us from the meandering garden path! ;D
You are quite right. Threads can very easily get diverted to subjects totally unrelated to the original question.
So, back to the question. ‘What do you think it means to Pave the Way’
And, straight away to the garden path! ;D
I do think another question needs to be asked even before this one. You have actually summarized what many were trying to express: Is paving a good or bad thing for the LBS?
Another question that naturally flows from ‘Is paving a good or bad...’ is: Does ‘paving the way’ reinforce, or provide an outlet for, LBSs’ fabulous fixing tendencies? That we can do something to bring MLCer back?
On the one hand, we are told there is nothing we can do about MLC or MLCer. On the other, there is a message (pave the way) that CAN be interpreted as, rightly or wrongly, there IS something we can do to influence the chances of MLCer returning. After all, many joined the forum in the hope of reconciliation, so, it’s not that difficult to interpret the message this way.
The discussion so far shows that some have misgivings about the pressure LBS feels when faced with ‘pave the way’ message when we are actually trying to stay alive in a devastating emergency situation. After one has recovered and can see the woods for the trees, can we turn our attention to paving for others. Until then, and who knows how long, we are way too busy paving our own and that of our children.
There I go again down the meandering garden path...
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I have never felt any "pressure" to "pave the way" or else. It is one of the many suggestions and thoughts that were written about in the articles and on the forum but I don't recall newbies being told this is what they must do.
I had a thought when I read Acorn's post. I have high cholesterol and a family history of stroke. I do not tolerate statins. I am trying to follow a Mediterranean diet, I exercise regularly, I quit smoking 35 years ago, I take fish oil supplements. None of these things will necessarily prevent me from having a stroke, or perhaps they will lessen the severity or maybe I will even live longer but I do them anyway because it makes sense to me that these things could change my physiology and allow me to live a heathy and longer life. No matter how many lifestyle changes I make, I may very well still end up dying of a stroke.
They are my choices, just like "paving the way" is a choice I made. I don't know if it will make a difference and in my experience no one on HS has every said it would, but it is how I wish to live and how I wish to treat the person I have loved so many years.
I am really sorry if new LBSers find this harmful to their healing but I think the issue is that they are trying to find a "solution" and so they will hold on to whatever life preserver happens to float by them. There are many LBSers who pay "experts" to try and resolve their marriage problems, I for one must have bought 100 books that I read looking for a way to solve this mess....is it harmful for people to look for something that they think might help?
I get the sense that some people want us to remove the words "paving the way" from the literature that has been accumulated and presented......I think this is more of a problem of people taking every word as solid gold, rather than taking what works for you and disregarding the rest.
Should we eliminate "paving the way" from the discussion for those who feel this has harmed them? What about those who feel this concept has helped them? Do they not count as well?
No one is forcing anyone to "pave the way", no one is telling you that "paving the way" will bring your spouse home.
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FWIW, when I first came here, I too was hoping for reconciliation. I wasn't so much looking for someone to tell me how to reconcile, but more aptly (and I think we ALL do this in the beginning), I initially just wanted to read someone tell me that I WOULD reconcile.
I wanted someone to say "This is a journey that always ends and he WILL wake up one day and come home."
That phase ended quickly for me, as it does for most of us. Reality sets in. Then we read the articles and blogs with a clear mind and most of us realize that RCR's situation was unique to her and we must take what applies to us but know that some (much) of it will not apply to us.
To me, paving the way never had anything to do with divorcing or not divorcing. It simply had to do with not reacting to the madness, not displaying the explosive anger I felt at times over these mind boggling things my H was doing that I never in a million years thought he'd do.
It's funny, in a sense, I do think Velika described my version of paving of the way when she talked about the Out of the Fog advice: "medium chill," don't react, stay in neutral, etc.
But I don't think all the MLCers described on this site are dangerous. Some are, and protecting the LBS and children in those cases is far and away more important than any "paving."
Some are very mild and some are even financially responsible. And I agree that divorcing or not is a personal choice. I personally now wish I had done it immediately, even before I found HS, because waiting and then thinking he would engage in a normal divorce process hurt me very badly financially. But I think that's a separate issue from paving the way.
I had moments early on where I reacted badly and let my H have it.
When I was still standing, I learned to not react and to me, that was the extent of paving the way - letting him see that I was not going to explode with anger over everything.
When I stopped standing, that didn't change. Because it's who I am now. Letting him have it doesn't benefit me and doesn't feel good, so I simply don't do it. Not to draw him back, just because it suits me better.
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I have never felt any "pressure" to "pave the way" or else. It is one of the many suggestions and thoughts that were written about in the articles and on the forum but I don't recall newbies being told this is what they must do.
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I am really sorry if new LBSers find this harmful to their healing but I think the issue is that they are trying to find a "solution" and so they will hold on to whatever life preserver happens to float by them.
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No one is forcing anyone to "pave the way", no one is telling you that "paving the way" will bring your spouse home.
Exactly. It’s the readers’ response to ‘pave the way’ I’m talking about.
I think it is worthwhile to note the target audience’s response, as I kind of alluded to in the following quote, if the author is asking questions of them with the view of revising the article.
I opine that it’s not about removing the word ‘paving’. It’s about clarifying the subject.
On the one hand, we are told there is nothing we can do about MLC or MLCer. On the other, there is a message (pave the way) that CAN be interpreted as, rightly or wrongly, there IS something we can do to influence the chances of MLCer returning. After all, many joined the forum in the hope of reconciliation, so, it’s not that difficult to interpret the message this way.
I just read Nas’ post.
I regarded ‘medium chill’, etc. as paving my own way. It helped me slowly gain detachment and live my life well despite H’s shenanigans. That - living well - turned out to be the best kind of paving that could have been done. He could go about doing whatever he needed to do to heal from MLC without worrying that I would keel over and end up in the hospital because of him.
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Funny thing is "Paving the way" is generally done in the beginning before the MLCer is too far in the tunnel, but when you first come here I don't think your head is ready for paving the way yet.
You're shocked and confused and just looking for answers. Some are still doing the begging and trying to get their spouse to change their mind.
By the time the articles start making sense it is usually way after BD.
In my opinion, once they are in the tunnel paving the way doesn't work.
I think that is why you see people do everything wrong and yet they end up reconnecting and others who do everything right don't end up back together. I personally don't think it matters what you do. If they want to come back, they just will.
Now I'm not saying you should treat them bad, just treat them like you would anyone else. Polite and respectful and have zero expectations.
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I don't think that paving the way is about us being able to influence an MLCer.
It's more like, what are the actions we can take (or not take) to maintain an atmosphere in which he or she might feel safest to return IF he or she ever wakes up? That's all. We are merely creating circumstances the best we can while we live our lives as if the MLCer is not coming back. We can do both at the same time.
We learn what actions could damage this atmosphere, and we learn what face we can show an MLCer who we know won't respond to us for years but may remember later how we treated them while they were out of their minds.
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Funny thing is "Paving the way" is generally done in the beginning before the MLCer is too far in the tunnel, but when you first come here I don't think your head is ready for paving the way yet.
You're shocked and confused and just looking for answers. Some are still doing the begging and trying to get their spouse to change their mind.
By the time the articles start making sense it is usually way after BD.
In my opinion, once they are in the tunnel paving the way doesn't work.
Shoot, Thunder, you ‘stole’ what I was just about to post!
What you have said about the inconvenient timing of effective paving reinforces my thought that picking ourselves up, dusting ourselves off is the prelude to Paving. If we can march forward and focus on making a good life for us and kids after ‘picking up and dusting off’, that, I consider, is Paving Proper.
What we accomplish with our lives despite MLCer is the beacon, in my humble opinion.
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"but may remember later how we treated them"
Exactly!
Yes Acorn that is proper paving in my book too.
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Many people who arrive at this site do so in a deep state of trauma. They don't have the perspective many people commenting here have.
Paving the way means to create circumstances that make an outcome more likely.
I think if the odds are low and the person reading this phrase is traumatized and more likely to be engaging in magical thinking (which is not meant to suggest they are naive, just that magical thinking can be a typical reaction to severe trauma) — "pave the way" can easily be misconstrued, because it literally means something that many people posting here are suggesting can be interpreted in all variety of ways.
In addition to this, many MLCers are blaming their LBS spouse for their horrible behavior. I do not think this site does enough to draw the line to say that this is not the LBS's fault. Many LBS are being severely and repeatedly emotionally abused by someone who is threatening to take their home, children, and pets from them, not to mention finances and social support (through smear campaigns). Sometimes a disordered other woman is also participating, meaning the LBS is being ganged up on by two malicious and unwell people.
In this (all too common) circumstance, "pave the way" is inappropriate, no matter how well intentioned or nuanced it is intended to be. It is not the fault of a deeply traumatized person if they "misinterpret" it, especially when this site is peppered with stages, trajectories, and other assertions (often by frequent posters that a newcomer may mistake as a moderator or true expert) that many MLCers recover.
Mental illness is so, so taboo that it is considered more serious to allege it (or brain damage) than it is to have it. A person who has a coronary event may have lingering heart damage; a person who suffers from a knee injury may have permanent ligament damage, and yes a person who suffers an extreme neurological event (whatever the cause) may have lingering brain damage. This is couched in euphemisms like "fog," but this is really what many of us are talking about.
If you read about the brain, it is very easy to see that a MLCer's behavior correlates very clearly to frontotemporal lobe impairment. This does not mean every MLCer has the same thing, or a progressive illness, but I do think this is a unifying factor of many, many of these cases.
In my opinion, treating MLCers as if they are simply jerks or awful — without acknowledging cognitive impairment — keeps many LBS stuck and not taking the correct emotional and practical actions. Much of MLCer's behavior follows very, very specific patterns. Knowing these patterns can help an LBS respond to minimize damage to herself and the people and things she wants to protect, either by emphasizing that a MLCer's disordered behavior is not her fault, or by showing her that there are some formulaic ways to respond. I feel it also helps to raise awareness too, with the hope that this will eventually help to protect men and women like us.
I think Out of the Fog is a valuable resource to this end because it presents this in a neutral way. It helps someone organize their thinking around disordered behavior without suggesting that somehow doing so will change the behavior. The descriptions are balanced and do not over promise.
HS is an amazing resource and I appreciate these discussions and the self insights because like many fellow posters I can look back and see how my ideas evolved, and what I learned along the way. I think however that it really is important to use language that takes into account very vulnerable and newly traumatized LBS.
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Paving the way means to create circumstances that make an outcome more likely.
Although this sounds a lot like what I said above, I would just like to note that it is quite different.
This is important, because new LBSs want to fix and influence to get a certain outcome, and that is not how things work. We learn that here eventually.
In my view, we are not making anything more likely. We are only attempting (with no ability to do more than attempt) to make it *less unlikely*. These are not the same.
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"but may remember later how we treated them"
Exactly!
Yes Acorn that is proper paving in my book too.
That was me, not Acorn. Anyway...
ETA: Or maybe you were responding to both of us. Anyway again!
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Velika, you say such sensible things and then comes:
If you read about the brain, it is very easy to see that a MLCer's behavior correlates very clearly to frontotemporal lobe impairment. This does not mean every MLCer has the same thing, or a progressive illness, but I do think this is a unifying factor of many, many of these cases.
Your H has frontotemporal lobe impairment? I’m sorry if that is the case... That’s an incurable progressive disease and my heart goes out to you...
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You can simply not conjecture that ‘this is a unifying of many, many of these cases.’
How would you know?
Projecting one’s own history on others is as unhelpful as the scenario you have mentioned in the following quote. It’s the same kind of conjecturing, the only difference being the opposing ‘diagnosis’. For what it’s worth, I see both of them as stumbling blocks for LBSs.
It is not the fault of a deeply traumatized person if they "misinterpret" it, especially when this site is peppered with stages, trajectories, and other assertions (often by frequent posters that a newcomer may mistake as a moderator or true expert) that many MLCers recover.
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Do you know I wonder if it is time for RCR to consider dropping the Pave The Way stuff altogether and replacing it with something which is more like Limit the Collateral Damage?
Reading others thoughts here has been rather enlightening tbh.
Why drop Paving The Way?
Bc there is something in the phrase that feeds in to a kind of desparate misguided LBS denial and the kind of magical thinking that V described. It implies a lot of things that have big emotional resonance. Home. Return. Influence. Strength. Support. Activity. Even a sense of the LBS being 'right' and knowing better than the poor lost 'wrong' MLCer.
Bc as Thunder says it only seems to reach most MLCers either on their way in or way out of crisis.
And usually by the time the LBS has any idea what is going on, it's too late. Either bc the MLCer is both feet into crisis, or years later perhaps if they reappear, bc the LBS has been forced to move on.
And it is one more impossible thing for a reeling battered LBS to feel they 'should' do usually when they are struggling to eat, sleep or string a coherent sentence together.
And one more thing that the LBS tries to do and fails so it makes them feel even more sense of despair.
And it runs counter to the oft repeated 'it's not about you' and 'nothing you say/do will make a difference to how their crisis unfolds' principles so it is a bit confusing.
Maybe Paving The Way should be repositioned and explored as a prelude to reconnection? Something that might come later? I agree with the 'remember how we treated them' idea...but it isn't a guarantee is it? Most MLCers simply don't see or value our kindness or integrity at the time, even twist it to a kind of pressure actually. I think we should do it anyway for our own health and self respect but most newbie LBS come here believing that they can 'nice them back' or at least 'nice them into not being an insane monster'. I've not seen much evidence of that working in the stories here but some evidence of LBS martyring themselves or not looking after their own interests strongly enough bc they think it will get in the way of a future reconciliation.
But Limiting the Collateral Damage could be seen as a healthy, loving and constructive act for both LBS and MLCer. Something that links in with all the practical and emotional self care stuff. Something that LBS CAN do that protects themselves and their families. And also perhaps leaves any recovering MLCer with less damage to take ownership for that might impede any honest desire to reconnect? Even less damage for the LBS to forgive? Just a thought.
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Redstar, sorry I was agreeing with both of you. ;D
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I got more from validation as opposed to any paving, fwiw. The words "I'd feel that way if I thought that", left him confused and shut down monster. So maybe validation is part of paving the way.
I still see paving the way as leaving a way for them to come home should they choose to do so and you choose to leave a path open. And it includes boundaries, courtesy, requirements, and getting yourself in a place where you become the person YOU want to be, not the person someone else wants you to be. Paving the way is NOT pretzling yourself to make someone want to come home. It's making it so they don't NOT want to come home.IMO.
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Acorn, I do believe most MLCers are experiencing an impairment to the frontotemporal lobe, but was careful to state that this could be the result of a variety of causes and not necessarily progressive.
Depression can cause an impairment to the frontotemporal lobe. So can lesions, tumors, strokes, drug reactions, and all variety of factors.
Acting affronted by this suggestion further fuels the taboos around mental illness that keep people from getting the help and diagnosis they need and creating more victims in the process. The brain, whether we like it or not, is a physical organ of the body that can be damaged, impaired, and changed.
Because we see the seat of the self as residing in the brain, this idea is frightening to us. I think this is why people who find a way to connect spiritually to the MLC and LBS experience can in some ways heal and transcend it, even if the circumstances do not change.
If we see ourselves and our MLCer on a soul journey, rather than simply material, I think we can often find wisdom, healing, and forgiveness, no matter our specific faith or beliefs.
I agree with what Treasr has written. I deeply believe that if someone can and does recover from MLC, then they would be in a state to feel genuine empathy and care for their spouse and what they went through.
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To my mind, Paving the Way' means different things over time.
When I first found this site, the only things I was interested in were Reconnection and Reconciliation- Both mean different things to me now..they have little to do with XH.
Paving the Way absolutely makes sense, if you can see it as a trigger for a new perspective. As others have said, it starts with "how would I, myself like to be received" - the idea that I am creating an environment that my spouse would want to be in...but ultimately, I am creating an environment that fosters love...and that extends to everybody in my life, especially to myself.
Reconnection to me has come to mean reconnecting with myself..first - and I am still in the process of working on that. For example: I went NC with my spouse almost 3mths ago and on his last attempt, I took his call and asked that he stop contacting me. I am aware that I am in a new stage which I would like to call a LBS Transition, though I think it's similar to the MLCer's Final Fears - I really need to do this part without interruption - it's as if I am acutely aware of my progress and really considering where 'I" want to go from here. I am wondering perhaps whether it's possible that others who are reconnecting/reconciling with their spouses are sometimes a little frustrated...because of missing this step.
I think Paving The Way is a very important part of the journey.
Firetruck
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Firetruck, love your screen name.
The short of it for me: paving the way means treating the MLC spouse as you would any other child of God. Even if they are acting like the child of the opposite, and even if you are not religious.
Be gentle, open, accepting and kind but with the boundaries of respect and a bit of indifference or impersonality that you afford any innocuous stranger or acquaintance. Listen more than you speak, and speak briefly, respectfully, and mostly superficially.
In the world, we sometimes say be kind to others because you never know what anyone is struggling with. We *definitely* don’t know what the MLC spouse is struggling with. Even in the best times of marriage and closeness, it’s not possible for anyone to know everything another grapples with inside its own mind. So that respect and reserve or “hands off” has to apply when spouse has gone MLC.
Honestly that has been part of the lesson for me in h’s absence or abandonments. I realize pretty often where although I thought I did respect him and quite a lot, maybe it’s more true that I admired him deeply. I don’t think he went away to gain my full respect, but if he should ever return and we reconcile, that is what’s here waiting for him now. And it’s deep and whole, and very different than what I felt or showed or thought I showed before all this.
He’s a child of God, they all are, and so are we. I don’t pave the way for him as much as I do maybe selfishly in alignment with my own values and faith, so that I can live with myself, look myself in the face in the mirror every morning, and sleep ok at night.
I don’t sleep well every night. Just saying. It’s not easy, and it’s a day to day choice and sometimes minute to minute. And results are yet to be determined.
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I felt the need to go back and read what RCR wrote about Paving the Way as I see this thread going way off track. From July 8, 2013 What is paving the way?
In her first paragraph she states: "This is one of the most important concepts that goes with standing" and as a stander I agree with her.
If you are not a stander, perhaps "paving the way" does not apply.
treasur, your suggestion "limiting the collateral damage" is a much different concept than paving the way...as well...I don't mean to be difficult, but what literacy level do the words "limiting the collateral damage" come in at? I suspect quite a high one and may not be understood terribly well.
Anyway, here is what RCR wrote...as I stated..she addressed this issue for standers.
I suspect that posters will argue, there is no reason to believe that this works.....logically, I believe that "if" a MLCer comes through their crisis and feels that they would like to return, perhaps some of the things I did along the way will help him to feel safe to do so. There is no proof of this but I don't need proof because it is common sense to me. Using what RCR wrote "might" and I say "might" make him feel that he would be welcomed back should he choose to take that route back home.
If he doesn't, I have not lost anything.
If "paving the way" is causing you harm, in my opinion, it is because you have not let go of the "expectation" that you have that he/she will return someday...NO EXPECTATIONS go hand and hand in paving the way to minimize any "harm" that you think paving the way is going to do to you.
Personally, paving the way has not caused me any harm, indeed it has allowed me some control over my life and actions.
Paving the Way
Paving the Way is about how you treat others and your Self; it integrates with Mirror-Work which is about you; who you are, how you respond and react and what you can do to change what needs changing, embrace what needs loving and heal without bitterness. Paving the Way for your MLCer to come home is about loving your Self and making your Self a priority. As you change and heal, you become an attractive force for your MLCer. Understanding the theory as I explain it will get you nowhere if you fail to apply it; without actions it’s dead and I can’t do the work for you. Growth is a personal experience.
The Paving the Way Toolbox
Paving the Way creates a safe path home for your MLCer and just as with all paving jobs, you will need some tools.
Direct Tools
The Unconditionals: Grace, Agapé and Forgiveness
The Unconditionals are the stones with which you Pave the Way. They are guidelines for how treat each other—MLCers, alienators and all others. The Unconditionals the primary direct tool for Paving the Way.
Truth Darts
Yes, MLCers are often upset upon delivery, but Truth Darts enable self-reflection which enables progress.
Validate
Validating sends the message that you accept a person’s feelings as being real even if you don’t like them or the resultant actions.
Boundaries
Reassurance
This is especially important for Close Contacters like Clinging Boomerangs who think they want out and then change their mind—over and over. Part of their cycling may be rooted in a fear of abandonment.
Be Consistent and Flexible
I know, these seem to conflict one another. Be consistent in the Unconditionals, but how you apply the tools may change because what works today may have an opposite result next week. MLCers progress and so you need to adjust your interactions as they progress.
Indirect Tools
The direct tools were about things you can do in person or interactions with your MLCer; the indirect tools are about working on yourself and by doing that you become an attractive force like a lighthouse for your MLCer.
Mirror-Work
Detachment
Gratitude
Rediscover You: Get a Life
Choose Joy—embrace the journey
Redirecting and Reprogramming Thoughts and Beliefs
"I guess there is no opportunity to Pave the Way when you are dealing with Monster? Am I right in thinking I should just be polite, as nice as is possible in difficult circumstances and just leave him to do whatever?"
The main question is basically a version of how can I Pave the Way when/if…
My MLCer is a Vanisher and we have no contact?
I set a No Contact Boundary?
My MLCer refuses to pay attention/listen to me?
My MLCer hates me?
My MLCer doesn’t live at home?
We don’t communicate?
The questioner is right, but the implication that being polite, nice and leaving him to do whatever are not part of Paving the Way is incorrect, those are what Paving the Way is about.
MLCers disconnect gradually. Use this time to begin laying a foundation for a future return, because midlife crisis gets worse and contact and communication may decrease, along with your opportunities for direct contact and communication to Pave the Way. That does not mean Paving the Way will cease when your MLCer moves out or reduces contact; it means the type of tools you use will change. In the beginning I knew that Chuck would leave within a few weeks—he had an apartment lined up—and I knew that his affair would become physical soon after he moved out. That meant I only had a few weeks to strengthen our foundation by starting to add new paving stones. I continued throughout his midlife crisis, but he gave me more opportunities to Pave the Way directly (in person) because of the initial work I did to Pave the Way in the beginning. Paving the Way is often more about how you treat the situation and your MLCer rather than about what you do specifically. In addition it is also about how you treat yourself which is why boundaries are part of the toolbox; we teach people how to treat us.
edit - change color to purple - OP
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Agree with xyzcf, and RCR's definition of Paving is what I was presented with when I came here, and what I adhered to as much as possible while being a long-term stander.
Standing and our reasons for it, versus what is going on within the MLCer, are two different topics. I think your concerns are valid Velika, but I don't think they have anything to do with this topic. Some people will choose to stand (as we initially did), and it's not because they feel pressured to based on faulty info; it's because they choose to or feel compelled to from within themselves and their beliefs. I was already standing without knowing what it was. Different information, or prodding to divorce quickly (which I was already getting in my day to day life from a ton of people) would have made no difference. Wiping the slate clean on "Paving" is not going to stop someone who truly wants to pave a way for reconnection, nor should it.
That shouldn't dissuade people from telling their stories and presenting another way in which we can heal and be happy, or cautionary tales like mine that show not taking serious financial steps can hurt you in the long run, but our story threads and topics aimed at that are a better place than disrupting other topics that may have to do with a different choice.
I hope I haven't added to to the veering off topic more!
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or me. a divorce would not have been possible because H never left and in UK law, even in the case of adultery, a divorce cannot be granted to the petitioner if the defendant has been living in the home for upto 6 months after the adultery was cited. It is possible to divorce after 2 yrs legal separation and in the home that means living completely separate lives and proving such as both parties have to be willing.
I’m not a lawyer and in any case, divorce is a big step, and not one I’m keen to promote if there’s an alternative, but I was under the impression that adultery could not be quoted if the marriage ‘re started’ for over six months since adultery was last confirmed ie if sex etc between spouses had resumed and adultery had stopped. Divorce can be obtained quickly for irreconcilable differences can’t it? And unreasonable behaviour is easily a way of obtaining a quick divorce since all these spouses are behaving unreasonably, even if they aren’ t having an affair. Eg, I cited unreasonable behaviour and it included being unwilling to undergo counselling or to improve the marriage. Anything that isn’t pro relationship can be unreasonable if it means the marriage is an unsatisfying place to be because one partner isn’t playing their part.
I thought the two year wait was if you wanted to keep all information off the record so as not to annoy each other with accusations.
https://www.gov.uk/divorce
This is the correct set of info on UK divorce
The two year gap has to be mutual and does not address any financial issues but it is wise to settle all financial affairs before the end of the 2 yr separation. Accusations can still fly but evidence and proof is essential.
In the UK there is currently no quick divorce. A divorce process can be as little as 3 -5 months to get to decree nisi but only if both partners have already separated all assets and this is known as a clean break.
I know this because my D is getting divorced from her H after only a brief period of marriage. They have legally completed one year so can divorce but my D insisted on the house being sold and all joint assets being split equally. Her STBX has refused to start the divorce even though he wants one so my D has set the ball rolling and her solicitors have sent him the forms to sign as petitioner.
I also learned yesterday that even after 40 yrs of separation a divorce can still take as long as 6 months min. My friend who I have known for over 30 yrs was married very young. She and her H split after a few years and both went their separate ways living with new partners and starting families but staying in contact from time to time. Neither of them divorced each other. Until this year when he wanted to settle his assets for his D having been bereaved of his long time partner. So he asked my friend for a D and she said yes.There was nothing to settle financially but it still took 10 months to process because they both had to log where they had lived, previous bank accounts etc.......
So even in that situation where everything was settled and sorted and had been for years, the divorce process was long winded and almost prevented them from doing so.
Conversely another friend of mine who is a professional singing teacher was divorced by what turned out to be another MLCer H on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour. His claim was that she was a musician and she kept singing. It was unreasonable of him to have to live with that.
She tried to prove him wrong and it became very ugly. That took nearly a year because he had hidden a lot of his finances (wealthy family) and was trying to even prevent her from having equity in the house so that she and the children could find somewhere else. He started the divorce - she resisted but stopped when he eventually, after months of argument, capitulated and let her have her half of the equity and agreed a sensible amount of financial support.
The unreasonable behaviour part of a divorce is quite simply too grey and confusing for comfort and can often prolong a divorce process.
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His claim was that she was a musician and she kept singing. It was unreasonable of him to have to live with that.
THAT one needs to go into the annals of "Stupid MLC Reasons for D" right next to "The dog is too fat,""You don't cook Bratwursts properly," and "You vacuum the house wrong".
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Jz2FnXeC5KnGqJi/giphy.gif)
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I thank xyzcf for prompting me to read ‘Pave the Way’ with a fresh set of eyes and in my present situation (reconnecting, rebuilding) which is vastly different from when I first encountered the article.
Here is my reflection:
I joined HS a year after the BD, I think, and I devoured all the articles, and, repeat.
My mind was still very much muddled, my focus was on MLC and my MLCer, and I wanted a solution to end all the craziness and have my beloved back to loving me. I found the ‘solution’. In ‘Pave the Way’ article...
One sees what one wants to see. In my case, I saw in the article ‘how to get my H back’. Rather than taking in the overall message, which is really about healing and growing, despite MLC and MLCer, I zoomed into certain segments of the article - I highlighted these in bold italic. Yes, I know. I was the best cherry picker in the neighbourhood.
I have re-read the article a couple of times just now and I can see why I focused on certain parts as ‘how to get him back’ as a newbie. (Please note that this is my perception only.)
It starts with the title ‘Paving the Way’. It denoted proactiveness on my part, the LBS - yay, I can do something to bring him back!
The phrase, ‘Paving the Way’, implied to me that there is an outcome or a destination to which the Way is Paved - my MLCer’s eventual return to my loving arms. Yay, again!
Secondly, some words were interpreted by me that there is a cause and effect relationship - you pave, MLCer may very well walk on it toward LBS.
Thirdly, Mirror work, though beneficial for me, is also a means to an end. It’s a ‘Toolbox’. What does one do with a toolbox? Use it to fix something, to make it right, to get things working again. The ‘something’ being outside of myself - an object, a person, a situation.
I am a simple and practical person. I encounter a problem, I want to find a solution. I found it in ‘Paving the Way.’ Sometime during my hard work to pave the way for H and eventual reconciliation, it metamorphosed to paving my own way without any thoughts of H walking on it or not. It became all about me. Not about H, not about our marriage.
I’m merely offering my personal interpretation of ‘Pave the Way’ that I had as a newbie LBS, who was traumatized, bewildered and under life reconstruction.
Paving the Way
Paving the Way is about how you treat others and your Self; it integrates with Mirror-Work which is about you; who you are, how you respond and react and what you can do to change what needs changing, embrace what needs loving and heal without bitterness. Paving the Way for your MLCer to come home is about loving your Self and making your Self a priority. As you change and heal, you become an attractive force for your MLCer. Understanding the theory as I explain it will get you nowhere if you fail to apply it; without actions it’s dead and I can’t do the work for you. Growth is a personal experience.
The Paving the Way Toolbox
Paving the Way creates a safe path home for your MLCer and just as with all paving jobs, you will need some tools.
Direct Tools
The Unconditionals: Grace, Agapé and Forgiveness
The Unconditionals are the stones with which you Pave the Way. They are guidelines for how treat each other—MLCers, alienators and all others. The Unconditionals the primary direct tool for Paving the Way.
Truth Darts
Yes, MLCers are often upset upon delivery, but Truth Darts enable self-reflection which enables progress.
Validate
Validating sends the message that you accept a person’s feelings as being real even if you don’t like them or the resultant actions.
Boundaries
Reassurance
This is especially important for Close Contacters like Clinging Boomerangs who think they want out and then change their mind—over and over. Part of their cycling may be rooted in a fear of abandonment.
Be Consistent and Flexible
I know, these seem to conflict one another. Be consistent in the Unconditionals, but how you apply the tools may change because what works today may have an opposite result next week. MLCers progress and so you need to adjust your interactions as they progress.
Indirect Tools
The direct tools were about things you can do in person or interactions with your MLCer; the indirect tools are about working on yourself and by doing that you become an attractive force like a lighthouse for your MLCer.
Mirror-Work
Detachment
Gratitude
Rediscover You: Get a Life
Choose Joy—embrace the journey
Redirecting and Reprogramming Thoughts and Beliefs
"I guess there is no opportunity to Pave the Way when you are dealing with Monster? Am I right in thinking I should just be polite, as nice as is possible in difficult circumstances and just leave him to do whatever?"
The main question is basically a version of how can I Pave the Way when/if…
My MLCer is a Vanisher and we have no contact?
I set a No Contact Boundary?
My MLCer refuses to pay attention/listen to me?
My MLCer hates me?
My MLCer doesn’t live at home?
We don’t communicate?
The questioner is right, but the implication that being polite, nice and leaving him to do whatever are not part of Paving the Way is incorrect, those are what Paving the Way is about.
MLCers disconnect gradually. Use this time to begin laying a foundation for a future return, because midlife crisis gets worse and contact and communication may decrease, along with your opportunities for direct contact and communication to Pave the Way. That does not mean Paving the Way will cease when your MLCer moves out or reduces contact; it means the type of tools you use will change. In the beginning I knew that Chuck would leave within a few weeks—he had an apartment lined up—and I knew that his affair would become physical soon after he moved out. That meant I only had a few weeks to strengthen our foundation by starting to add new paving stones. I continued throughout his midlife crisis, but he gave me more opportunities to Pave the Way directly (in person) because of the initial work I did to Pave the Way in the beginning. Paving the Way is often more about how you treat the situation and your MLCer rather than about what you do specifically. In addition it is also about how you treat yourself which is why boundaries are part of the toolbox; we teach people how to treat us.
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I agree completely with Acorn that there is nothing bad in here at all.
But our early eye can misinterpret it bc of the language imho. Just as Acorn describes.
Perhaps it is as simple as changing the phrase 'paving the Way' to something else that does not cry out so strongly to the fix it beliefs we all come with initially.
Less about the content, more about the 'label'
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I agree completely with Acorn that there is nothing bad in here at all.
But our early eye can misinterpret it bc of the language imho. Just as Acorn describes.
Perhaps it is as simple as changing the phrase 'paving the Way' to something else that does not cry out so strongly to the fix it beliefs we all come with initially.
Less about the content, more about the 'label'
It is the language, for sure.
We are told ‘you didn’t break it, you can’t fix it’. Yet, the language contained in the title and within the article can give the impression ‘you didn’t break it but you can fix some of it.’
‘Pave Your Own Way’ comes across as empowering for LBS.
‘Pave the Way’ can come across as active fixing.
‘Tools’ can come across as active fixing, too.
A disclaimer of some sort may be needed? That MLCer’s return is not a common scenario and, in fact, rather rare. For those rare cases, paving your own way can also inadvertently pave the way for returning MLCer to walk on. A side effect of paving LBS’s own way, if you like.
IMHO, ‘paving the way’ is a footnote of Mirror Work.
Just my opinion.
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Or Even Lead The Way. Just be the example they are looking for.
Not to say do as I do or what they should do.
Just do it. In the beginning the don't give a $#@% what we do. But I think they do later. JMO, alot may disagree with me, but I think in some and I said SOME MLCERS are watching how we the LBS is. Until we are Good, they are not comfortable around us.
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Or Even Lead The Way. Just be the example they are looking for.
Not to say do as I do or what they should do.
Just do it. In the beginning the don't give a $#@% what we do. But I think they do later. JMO, alot may disagree with me, but I think in some and I said SOME MLCERS are watching how we the LBS is. Until we are Good, they are not comfortable around us.
‘Lead the Way’ makes perfect sense to me!
I think you really put your finger on the spirit of the article.
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Going back to what RCR wrote at the very beginning of her thoughts on paving the way:
In her first paragraph she states: "This is one of the most important concepts that goes with standing"
It doesn't apply to all members, just like many other things she writes may apply to your situation or not.
Michelle Weiner Davis had a list of things "to do" to change your behavior 180 degrees to get a "reaction" from your spouse. Many people found that helpful, others didn't like things she said.
One of the things we learn when our marriages end is to think independently and to make decisions about what is right for us. That includes things that we read about relationships and on internet sites.
Looking at other "pieces of advice" that RCR gives in her articles, there are many times she will mention something that might have some affect in your spouse. Giving information and also her experience of her own situation.
Here is one example from "planting the seeds"
Instead of changing him, change your Self. Change your reactions to responses. Listen, observe and validate his feelings. Allow your behavior to speak for you, facilitating an environment in which he can eventually choose to change his mind. Learn what to do and become confident in what you feel, think and know. Then, when you speak, you will have an authority within you that he can trust--if he so chooses. Be honest when you speak to set yourself apart from the alienator and because it is the best policy.
I don't see this as trying to fix them.
Do we know what if any affect our actions will have? As has been said you can do everything right and your MLCer doesn't return home or do nothing right and they show up at your door.
What concerns me is the idea that somehow these words "paving the way" are adding more "trauma" to an already traumatized LBSer. This phrase has been around since the beginning of HS and was always clear to myself and to other members that I spoke with what it means. There has never been any pressure for people to "pave the way" but it was used as a term to explain a certain action you might take, that might "help" if the MLCer ever thought of returning home.
If we are going to start looking at every title and expression used to make sure that it doesn't offend someone or make us think that somehow we can "fix" the MLCer, then many of RCR's articles will be determined as possibly upsetting some member because they have not detached enough yet or understand MLC or to take what you read and apply it if it fits your world view and disregard what doesn't.
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For what it’s worth, I get a lot of verbal micro-focus from both MLC h and the teens in my midst. So it may also be part of the lesson at midlife for us to become either more flexible in understanding the spirit of language used by others, as well as to become more sure of what we believe language means and how to use it most effectively and for the greatest good.
For what it’s worth also, it’s taken me years to get my head around certain Standing concepts and I am still learning the most basic things today.
FOR THE NEWBIES:
You may be told to read here and keep reading and rereading. Just know that sometimes you will hear or read what seems like the same advice or story repeatedly, and it may take several reads at random intervals before suddenly what was said makes sense to you and feels true and natural.
My best approach to all of this is what others often say: Take what you need and what is right for you.
We make mistakes along the way, but that’s how we learn sometimes. If something offends, it’s possible that’s a good opportunity for you to delve deeper into your own whats and whys, which I feel is an essential part (maybe the *most* essential part) of this long life process.
That’s said generally and not to anyone specific here. Just, stay open to learning and difference of language if you can. We come from all places and levels, and no single written voice is going to be “perfect”; one size does not fit all. We do our best anyway. You know?
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As with everything in life and in particularly on the internet...
You can never bubble wrap what you say to suit everyone.
Someone, somewhere will always disagree or be offended...or hurt...or traumatised.
Granted that doesn't give you a licence to intentionally set out to annoy or hurt others...
But I don't think every single piece of information out there has to be scrutinised and shrink wrapped from every angle that COULD POSSIBLY hurt a new LBS or whatever.
At some stage people really have to understand the meaning behind a statement. The overall pattern in a trend.
People in general need to stop nit picking the particulars and pay attention to the over all picture.
As they always say ''Take what resonates and leave the rest''.
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I shared what I perceived as a newbie upon encountering the Pave article and summarized as:
One sees what one wants to see. In my case, I saw in the article ‘how to get my H back’. Rather than taking in the overall message, which is really about healing and growing, despite MLC and MLCer, I zoomed into certain segments of the article - I highlighted these in bold italic. Yes, I know. I was the best cherry picker in the neighbourhood.
RCR asked a question on this particular article, not any other, even less Weiner Davis’ 180. So, I don’t think anyone wishes to be looking at every title and expression. I’d say that would be generalizing beyond the scope of this thread.
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As with everything in life and in particularly on the internet...
You can never bubble wrap what you say to suit everyone.
Someone, somewhere will always disagree or be offended...or hurt...or traumatised.
Granted that doesn't give you a licence to intentionally set out to annoy or hurt others...
But I don't think every single piece of information out there has to be scrutinised and shrink wrapped from every angle that COULD POSSIBLY hurt a new LBS or whatever.
At some stage people really have to understand the meaning behind a statement. The overall pattern in a trend.
People in general need to stop nit picking the particulars and pay attention to the over all picture.
As they always say ''Take what resonates and leave the rest''.
I’d say the same. This is an internet support forum. It cannot take the place of qualified, professional advice. It does provide empathy and a lot of common sense.
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I’d say the same. This is an internet support forum. It cannot take the place of qualified, professional advice. It does provide empathy and a lot of common sense.
Meme stolen and modified:
"Posting on the Internet: The easiest way to misrepresent yourself and to have others misinterpret you."
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I agree Paving the Way is a beautiful concept and a gentle way to describe our best possible hopes and outcomes.
Unfortunately, I think the timelines and stages and also fantasies of MLC outcome are so repeatedly and pervasively used on the site that it is not uncommon for new arrivals to it to begin asking what stage they are in, how will they know it’s over etc.?
In a spiritual and emotional sense, by all means, yes — behave in a way that does not exacerbate your estranged spouse’s condition. However, this behavior may be counterintuitive as to how you would act with a non-disordered person.
My own uncle has whatever this is. He has deteriorated a lot since it stated. His estranged wife, my aunt, told me even after he had left messages threatening her life, she was hoping once they were divorced they could be friends again.
I had to explain to her that she needs to accept he won’t recover. This is not to be cruel or not pave the way but self protection on all levels. I think many of our spouses, had they not fallen ill, would agree even with strong measure like no contact and rapid divorce.
I would say, instead of pave the way, minimize negative interactions and trauma. As many of us have learned, either anecdotally or through research, certain physical disorders of the brain can result in someone seeking out and engaging in conflict just to feel something. If this is your spouse, please do not put it on yourself to pave the way. Don’t engage. This is for your own self protection.
Most people come here in a deeply traumatized state when ambiguous language can easily be misinterpreted. Imagine if an LBS were injured or her children were harmed because of this.
Yes, it’s the internet, but the primary audience is very susceptible and fragile. Something we should all be mindful of.
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Whatever "this" is though, is not the same for everyone here. There is "dis-ease" present for some. There are probably seriously mentally ill people too who might degenerate without hope. My former spouse was diagnosed bipolar. That is not the reason I quit standing 5.5 years in. It's not my job to talk anyone else of seeing their choice to stand as a "fantasy" (because it is not; it is a choice). What is happening with any given MLCer and what choice the LBS makes to stand or not are two completely separate issues. There is no reason to belittle standing, just because we choose not to stand or change our decision at some point. We cannot paint every situation with the same brush, or feel any decision outside of triage is based on faulty information.
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The comments were in no way meant to belittle standing, and I 100 percent agree with you that not everyone here is dealing with the same thing.
In real life, I know of two cases where the person came home; one was a man and one was a woman. Both were relatively self aware and actively seeking therapy/spiritual guidance, although they did move out and have affairs. Their spouses did a lot of things this site recommends, like stay busy, draw boundaries, and in one case even began dating or considering dating. However, neither person was doing things like wild spending, truly bizarre affair partner, radical personality change, striking change in habits etc. that are regularly reported on these forums.
What I see on this forum, unfortunately, is no attempt to distinguish who might have a crisis and who might have a serious illness. In fact, people who suggest the latter are routinely and categorically shut down or told to go elsewhere, despite the fact that many of the symptoms they report are in fact the norm among posters. (Many of us are aware of a poster who attempted to alert people about frontotemporal lobe disorder who was repeatedly shut down, even when she made sure to qualify her remarks.) The truth is, early bvFTD is often mistaken as a midlife crisis. This is uncontroversial; you will find it in serious articles about the disease.
Until there is a way to truly expand the thinking of the forum that YES, some people are arriving here with very sick spouses, etc., it is in my opinion irresponsible to use language that could put someone or their children in harm's way.
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bvFTD is a rare, progressive, degenerative, non-curable, non-reversible and fatal disease......
Most of the posters here have Mid-Lifers that live to ripe old ages (or have so far) with no further progression of symptoms... They go off the rails into Schmoopieland and stay there or they may even return. They don't end up dead from brain wasting.... . Yes, there are likely cases of serious medical illness but you (and bvFTD's) insistence that this is a commonly occurring ailment that causes what we know here as a Mid-Life Crisis is what confused people and is not substantiated by fact.
This thread, however, is NOT discussing medical issues so please return to the topic.
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(Many of us are aware of a poster who attempted to alert people about frontotemporal lobe disorder who was repeatedly shut down, even when she made sure to qualify her remarks.) The truth is, early bvFTD is often mistaken as a midlife crisis.
Yes, there are likely cases of serious medical illness but you (and bvFTD's) insistence that this is a commonly occurring ailment that causes what we know here as a Mid-Life Crisis is what confused people and is not substantiated by fact.
Thank you UM - Correct.
Velika BVFTD was not "shut down" but was asked by RCR to stop telling newbies that their MLCers clearly had bvFTD and to make the MLCers go to the doctors which for many newbies is an impossible task. It was not because we didn't accept that condition exists but that the advice needed to be more appropriate in response to the newbie's story. It was also suggested that there was a separate thread on bvFTD which emerged and soon dissipated because most members on here knew that it didn't apply to them.
So as UM says - this thread is about paving the way and not re-hashing old stories or accusations. So please keep on topic.
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No one ever said that bvFTD is commonly occurring. It is poorly understood and often misdiagnosed. It often takes many years to confirm because in the early stages it can be mistaken for other mental illness — or a midlife crisis. Sometimes it can take more than a decade before the more extreme symptoms surface.
Unless they had a workup of some sort, there is no way for someone to definitively say in the early stages that their spouse did not have this or any other condition.
MLC is an umbrella term. It is a description of a behavior pattern. The term itself and taboos around mental illness prevent many of us from advocating for ourselves.
My feeling is that “pave the way” should come only after a level of triage that involves self protective measures and other questions and steps that could help someone determine whether this was more likely to be a passing crisis or symptoms of a more serious condition.
This seems like the very most responsible course to ensure that the advice on these forums do not harm anyone.
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My very close friend’s father sadly passed away from bvFDT this past April. He was in his early 50s.
His disease did progress over the course of about a decade, and in the first months he exhibited some behavior that on paper would say “MLC” yo anyone dealing with MLC, but in real life looked different.
What we describe in all of our various threads using words can be perceived differently by different people. And as with everything, seeing it in real life is often very different than reading about it from a personal description.
I have no doubt that that former poster read a lot of threads here and recognized elements of bvFDT based on what was written. But if she’d seen her ah and the MLCers side by side in real life, the distinction would have seemed more obvious.
Same with bipolar, severe depression, NPD and myriad other diagnosable illnesses.
Most people who come to this forum are traumatized simply due to the major change in their spouse, but it’s really a relatively smaller percentage who are dealing with physical abuse or extreme psychological abuse.
Every lbs should protect themselves, but “protect” is a broad term and I would be careful about generalizing about things such as that every lbs is at risk of physical harm.
In reality, the affair is sometimes the only replay behavior an MLCer will exhibit, and in those cases, a blanket statement about divorcing immediately and going NC may not apply.
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This thread, however, is NOT discussing medical issues so please return to the topic.
So as UM says - this thread is about paving the way and not re-hashing old stories or accusations. So please keep on topic.
I will be the third moderator to request that this thread return to the topic..What do you think it means to Pave the Way?
Velika, you have expressed your views on this several times. Other people have disagreed or have had different views than your view.
What do you think it means to Pave the Way?
This does not ask whether paving the way is right or wrong. Whether it is detrimental to the LBSer or not.
Paving the way has not caused me any harm. I like the concept and as a stander continue to pave the way when I can..just like the term "be the lighthouse" is also one that I like in MY SITUATION.
10 years after BD, my husband is sharp as ever, highly successful in his field and shows absolutely NO SIGNS of any pathology. I think we would find that true in most of the situations that are discussed on Hero's Spouse which is specifically set up to deal with the topic of Mid Life Crisis.
So let's get back to what RCR has asked.
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XYZ I get what you are saying. However, I deeply disagree that most people on this forum are simply dealing with a crisis. If this were the case you would see more variation in the stories and wild fluctuation in timelines.
A once truly genuinely devoted and loving spouse who has not returned after 10 years is either well and not interested in returning, or unable to connect to his past life and relationships due to an impairment that may not affect cognition but does affect other parts of the brain.
Concepts like paving the way and being the lighthouse are beautiful but meaningless if the spouse is unwell and has an irreversible condition. In this case, being a lighthouse might actually mean advocating for a diagnosis or help.
bvFTD did receive a diagnosis. Her husband was diagnosed with the bvFTD after showing nearly identical symptoms and behavior pattern as to what we regularly see described here.
She was one of the few posters I have ever heard of who had in fact planned ahead to make sure that once her now ex could not care for himself would have a place to live, despite the fact that he had treated her just as poorly as our spouses have treated us. She showed true agape love in this with no hope of any recognition.. She was on this forum to try to advocate for LBS, some of whom are driven to suicide, depression, and years of trauma, in part because their experience is misunderstood and minimized, trivialized, or mischaracterized.
I won’t post any more to this thread. I just want to note this for concern for the welfare of anyone at all who arrives here. Please please please look at family history, physical symptoms, recent changes to medication etc etc before you decide this is a midlife crisis you can wait out. Sometimes timing is the essence and there really are things you can do to protect yourself, your spouse, your children, or all three.
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RCR asked "what do you think it means to pave the way?" not whether or not paving the way was a good or bad thing for the LBSer.
Trust xyz to yank us from the meandering garden path!
You are quite right. Threads can very easily get diverted to subjects totally unrelated to the original question.
So, back to the question. ‘What do you think it means to Pave the Way’
And, straight away to the garden path!
I do think another question needs to be asked even before this one. You have actually summarized what many were trying to express: Is paving a good or bad thing for the LBS?
Another question that naturally flows from ‘Is paving a good or bad...’ is: Does ‘paving the way’ reinforce, or provide an outlet for, LBSs’ fabulous fixing tendencies? That we can do something to bring MLCer back?
On the one hand, we are told there is nothing we can do about MLC or MLCer. On the other, there is a message (pave the way) that CAN be interpreted as, rightly or wrongly, there IS something we can do to influence the chances of MLCer returning. After all, many joined the forum in the hope of reconciliation, so, it’s not that difficult to interpret the message this way.
The discussion so far shows that some have misgivings about the pressure LBS feels when faced with ‘pave the way’ message when we are actually trying to stay alive in a devastating emergency situation. After one has recovered and can see the woods for the trees, can we turn our attention to paving for others. Until then, and who knows how long, we are way too busy paving our own and that of our children.
There I go again down the meandering garden path...
Thank you Xyzcf!
I asked for what you feel it means rather than whether you think it is a good idea because the latter is based on the former. How you are defining it will lead you to feel or believe it is a positive or negative thing to do. Having seen posts where Paving the Way was said to be a bad idea or a waste, I wonder what those posters think it means because given how I define it in it's most pure or basic form, I have trouble understanding how anyone can consider it to not be positive or something you can do with or for any person--directly or indirectly.
Those are excellent questions Acorn, but the answers are still based on my initial question: How are you defining Paving the Way?
I have said there is nothing you can do about MLC...perhaps other than accept it. But I have tried to avoid saying that we cannot influence outcomes. We can choose to be gracious or scorned and those ways of behaving toward our MLCer and others can make a difference. That does not mean it will make the full difference newbies want--eventual reconciliation. Do newbies grasp onto that idea that we are able to influence? Sure they do and some run with it, thinking they have some new power which they must now amplify for increases chances. That does bring up the question, what is influence--do we mean full power to control? NO! Nudge? Not even that. Those imply an agenda and though each individual may have one, Paving the Way does not.
Many people who arrive at this site do so in a deep state of trauma. They don't have the perspective many people commenting here have.
Paving the way means to create circumstances that make an outcome more likely.
Though that might be a possible result of Paving the Way, it is not what it means.
I am not trying to be rude or arrogant. Some will argue that we each have the right to define...
As the author who has coined the term, I use it with an intended meaning and so reading what I write and applying a different definition will skew what I am saying and the advice that goes with it.
Do you know I wonder if it is time for RCR to consider dropping the Pave The Way stuff altogether and replacing it with something which is more like Limit the Collateral Damage?
Reading others thoughts here has been rather enlightening tbh.
Why drop Paving The Way?
Bc there is something in the phrase that feeds into a kind of desperate misguided LBS denial and the kind of magical thinking that V described. It implies a lot of things that have big emotional resonance. Home. Return. Influence. Strength. Support. Activity. Even a sense of the LBS being 'right' and knowing better than the poor lost 'wrong' MLCer.
Bc as Thunder says it only seems to reach most MLCers either on their way in or way out of crisis.
And usually by the time the LBS has any idea what is going on, it's too late. Either bc the MLCer is both feet into crisis, or years later perhaps if they reappear, bc the LBS has been forced to move on.
And it is one more impossible thing for a reeling battered LBS to feel they 'should' do usually when they are struggling to eat, sleep or string a coherent sentence together.
And one more thing that the LBS tries to do and fails so it makes them feel even more sense of despair.
And it runs counter to the oft-repeated 'it's not about you' and 'nothing you say/do will make a difference to how their crisis unfolds' principles so it is a bit confusing.
Maybe Paving The Way should be repositioned and explored as a prelude to reconnection? Something that might come later? I agree with the 'remember how we treated them' idea...but it isn't a guarantee is it? Most MLCers simply don't see or value our kindness or integrity at the time, even twist it to a kind of pressure actually. I think we should do it anyway for our own health and self respect but most newbie LBS come here believing that they can 'nice them back' or at least 'nice them into not being an insane monster'. I've not seen much evidence of that working in the stories here but some evidence of LBS martyring themselves or not looking after their own interests strongly enough bc they think it will get in the way of a future reconciliation.
There were some new and interesting as well as positive interpretations in the first days of this thread, but the first of the recent posts have lead to a discussion that shows a lack of understanding of the simple concept.
Coining terms and phrases (Paving the Way, Mirror Work, Boomerang...) is part art. I think Paving the Way was something that came natural to me when I was an LBS; I just started using it. Someone else started using the term Mirror-Work--I think it was here on this forum and it took me a lot of trial and error before I landed on Clinging Boomerang, Boomerang, Off-and-On and Vanisher. Limiting Collateral Damage is an excellent concept, but the term feels too clinical (ironic since I often feel I can be rather clinical) and may be difficult for an LBS to assimilate as they read. It may take a few pass overs to get it--different than the re-readings over months and years that many of you do.
To reposition it with Reconnection would do what so many of you are complaining it does and make it more about reconciliation--with it as a step to get there.
So maybe validation is part of paving the way.
It most definitely is.
I still see paving the way as leaving a way for them to come home should they choose to do so and you choose to leave a path open. And it includes boundaries, courtesy, requirements, and getting yourself in a place where you become the person YOU want to be, not the person someone else wants you to be. Paving the way is NOT pretzeling yourself to make someone want to come home. It's making it so they don't NOT want to come home.IMO.
This is an excellent interpretation. There is both more and less to it, but this is good.
I started this thread as a way to research how you understand the concept so I may explain it better. I am not going to do that on this thread because what I have right now is disconnected ideas as I put together what I would like to say.
The phrase Lead the Way is interesting, but directs the focus back to a direct object of the statement which is being led--and for Standers that direct object is going to be their MLCer. Paving the Way is about the Way rather than a direct object which may or may not choose to walk on the paved way. I think the concept of Being the Lighthouse may be the way we say Lead the Way.
We cannot control the myriad ways people interpret a single phrase, concept, article forum... What we can do is be sensitive to the differences. When writing for the general MCL Stander I need to be general which pretty much means middle of a graph where most LBSs fall close to the line. Some articles address specific types and so for those I write for that generalized type. When coaching I am able to be more specific since I am working with an individual and have their unique present case and history before me.
XYZ I get what you are saying. However, I deeply disagree that most people on this forum are simply dealing with a crisis.
Xyzcf's point is that whether people on this forum are simply dealing with crisis or more than crisis (or perhaps a greater crisis) is not the topic of this thread. But it is a perfect example of the reason I created the various topic icons. I want to encourage discussion of topics that may be controversial concerning the forum topic. We need to watch such discussions carefully because people become so upset and take things personally, but if all we do is surround ourselves with those who agree we become stagnant and fail to learn and progress.
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The reason why you see people saying Paving The Way is a waste of time (myself included) is because most of us will never reconcile. Therefore, wasting time Paving The Way (like Treasur asked, for what) that is geared at the MLCer and MLC outcome and not geared at the LBS is a waste a time, as well as another level of worry for LBS that are dealing with BD.
Like Thunder said, Paving The Way is more effective at BD/early on. Exactly the time period LBS tend either to be a mess and/or need to focus on themselves.
What is the purpose of something that is only going to serve a handful of LBS rather than most LBS and why do you find it so important given it does not seem to affect the odds? The odds lie on the LBS wanting, or not wanting, the MLCer back.
Even if HS did not existed I actually Paved The Way according to your definition. It was stupid. It would had been better to put the energy and thought on my rather than thinking it was a good idea to be nice to my nasty, violent MLCer. He would dine at our flat, would be there nearly every day, we attended social functions together, etc. Result? Zero.
It was the most stupid thing ever. The right thing to do would had been getting a divorce as soon as OW1 was made public.
Xyzcf, Mitz and others have done nothing but Paving The Way. So far, result zero. Xyzcf, Mitz and a few others will most likely reconcile when their MLCer wants back. They would anyway, just like you and Stayed did.
LP's husband has been wanting back. She never Paved The Way. I doubt it makes much of a difference it a LBS does, or does not, Pave The Way.
Being gracious towards our MLCers is just being civil, not Paving The Way.Not for me, at least. The other thing is, several of us have vanishers or MLCers that become distant. There is no Paving The Way for many LBS even if the LBS would like to do it.
As for leaving the door open to the MLCer ... many that are still here, or had been here in the past did it at first. Time and time and time went by, the MLCer remained in Replay/crisis, LBS moved on. HS is filled with LBS that Paved The Way, even if they did not knew what it was, and have not, and will never reconcile.
In my view there many subjects far more important than Paving The Way.
If one is Paving The Way, logically, one is Paving The Way towards something. That something is never happening for most of us. So, again, like Treasur asked, Paving The Way to what? To what will never happen for most?
Regarding degenerative neurological disorders. It is obvious most of us are not dealing with a spouse that has one. Our MLCers remain capable and able even more than 10 years after BD. Someone suffering from a neurological degenerative disorder would had degenerate.
Also, MLCers tend to go back to normal. People with neurological degenerative disorders do not.
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I believe the key question we should ask of ourselves is "Pave the way for who?" "Who is the object of paving the way?" If it is for ourselves then we can work on it, put an effort to achieve desirable outcome.
However If we pave way for MLC ers, then we are forgetting that we cannot control their processes. They will continue to do what they want to do, irregardless of what we do. I personally will be kind and compassionate, but never lose my integrity. Because at the end of this, in whichever way it ends, I am still a person who should be able to get up in the morning and look myself in the mirror.
Love to you all.
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In RCR concept, Paving The Way is for a possible reconcilion/in reconciliation in view.
I agree it should be for who, and the who should be the LBS.
First and foremost I think LBS should be kind and compassionated towards themselves. But we all, I have been there, tend to put the MLCer/marriage ahead of us at BD and for a while after.
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I actually think that RCR's article is timeless.
I hadn't read it in a long while until Xyxcf reposted it. The first paragraph says it all. It is about the LBS but we read any mention of the possible payoff with the MLCer as unhealthy focus on them. If that article didn't include the MLCer in the list of possible positive recipients of such behaviour, it would lose many an early reader. It's not until later when we really take in the part about this behaviour being good for us. It is a good way to live life. It is a good model for dealing with EVERYONE. Self love is at it's core.
It reminds me of the 12 steps (AA, Alanon and other groups). These take quite some chewing to get and even then, individual's interpret and apply them differently. They too are timeless - and a lot more confusing IMO.
It makes me sad to read of posters who wished they'd done it different early on. Each person makes decisions and changes when they are ready to. Chances are that early on, they probably ignored the type of advice they are now giving too because their fractured hearts were just not ready to hear it.
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It makes me sad to read of posters who wished they'd done it different early on. Each person makes decisions and changes when they are ready to. Chances are that early on, they probably ignored the type of advice they are now giving too because their fractured hearts were just not ready to hear it.
Of course I wish I had done things differently early on. There was no advice in 2006. There was no HS. I didn't ignore a thing I was told by people in RL.
I wish people in RL weren't of the opinion Mr J would soon be home and we would work things out and I wish I had friend like Xyzcf that made sure I saw a lawyer and sort the legalities out. I wasn't ready, but waiting until I was, well, it turned out really, really bad for me.
Sometimes we need someone that really helps with practical stuff.
The only reason Paving The Way article exists is because it is geared at reconciliation (a thing that will never happen for most of us), it is not called LBS self-care and like you said, it mentions the MLCer. It is also called Paving The Way. If one is Paving The Way one is Paving it for something, in the case of the article, a reconciled marriage.
The model is good, but attaching it to the MLCer/reconciliation does no favours. Later is too late for Paving The Way since it is meant to be something that is better used early on. Also, later, many of us have longed moved on.
I truly do not understand why wasting time on a new article, or articles, on Paving The Way. There really are much and many more relevant, practical issues for LBS.
Maybe you missed the part my MLCer was physically violent. I was having a man that had been physically violent for dinner and going out with him on social occasions. If I wasn't out of mind I don't know what I was. Even if he hadn't been physically violent, he was involved with another woman.
It makes no difference if it was because of MLC or not. He had someone else. That alone is enough reason for I to had divorce him right away. If I was me, which I wasn't. It was the most stupid thing I did in my life. Or didn't do.
You don't like that I think it was stupid? Well, it was. I gained nothing by remaining married and I have no idea why I thought it was a good idea to give someone who had got involved with someone, left, etc. a second chance. If you think the answer is love, it isn't. Love would have walked away from someone and something that was not good for me.
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Anjae,
The topic is What do you think it means to Pave the Way?
You have made statements based on what you think it means but have failed to qualify this and have instead stated them as facts.
...we read any mention of the possible payoff with the MLCer as unhealthy focus on them. If that article didn't include the MLCer in the list of possible positive recipients of such behavior, it would lose many an early reader.
Exactly
Attaching it to reconciliation is what a Stander will do. And we are being naive and even unfair when we try to strip away reconciliation in favor of Mirror-Work. Yes, Mirro-Work and focus the LBS needs to be primary, but there seems a trend toward avoiding the mention of reconciliation since it can take the focus off of Self. This fails to acknowledge the initial purpose for which many LBSs come to this forum. Reconciliation still needs to remain a part of discussion, even though it need not be the primary or even secondary or tertiary focus. This is a site for LBSs and especially established to be a safe haven for Standers who may feel persecuted at other forums. Standers want to reconcile. It may not happen, but they get to choose what they want, even if they do not get it. Furthermore, this forum was established to support them in that goal.
Paving the Way is like beautifying my house—the house that is me. Some of the things I do to my house will attract others to me. That does not mean that beautifying my house is about attracting outsiders to me; that is a byproduct.
There is an idea that Paving the Way is or is not effective. This suggests an agenda. Individuals do have agendas—I certainly did, but the agenda belongs to the individual, not to Paving the Way. Can reconciliation happen as a side benefit, of course it can, but a lot more goes into reconciliation and those MLCers who do return choose to do so of their own free will. It’s not about doing everything right as a Stander. My husband was probably going to return unless I chose not to allow it and/or went full scorched earth. Maybe I did some things right, but he was probably one of those MLCers who was just looking for continuing reasons to come home. That means it was not about what I did as a Stander. Sure, I helped a bit, but only a bit. It was just my luck of the draw to have an MLCer who was probably bound to make the choice to come home.
Paving the Way in those actions where positive results were a byproduct helped me because I gained confidence in myself and I what I was doing as a Stander. I believed in what I was doing and this kept me in a more positive frame which helped me to remain gracious and positive and allowed me to direct focus onto my Self. I cannot say how my path would have twisted had there been a few more negative upsets to weaken that confidence and belief in what I was doing. I honestly do think I did a lot of things right as a Stander—things that benefitted my Stand. But I think a lot of you do those same things and because of the luck of the draw, they will not have the same results. You can do everything right as far as Standing goes and your MLCer may not ever even consider returning. That is not your fault; it is their choice.
On its own, Paving the Way is not about reconciliation. Making it about it is something individuals do. That’s not something we can stop. It’s one of those things where I have always struggled as a writer. I made it about that; I had a specific goal of reconciliation. Does my being the author and then saying it is not meant as that make it wrong? I really do understand that it can make it confusing, but we need to separate RCR the writer of this site from RCR the Stander from 15 years ago.
So Anjae is both right and wrong. RCR the Stander used Paving the Way in her march toward reconciliation. But both of those aspects of me—writer and Stander—understand it as a Way of Grace, being gracious, kind, compassionate.
Niceing them home would make things so simple, but that’s not really why we should be nice—and it doesn’t work anyway. And some of the things we do will not be seen as nice by our MLCers! Jesus loved his enemies and his neighbors, but he also knew how to show anger. He turned over the tables of the money changers in the temple. He did not let loving people stop him from addressing challenges. Paving the Way is not always about making nice.
The model is good, but attaching it to the MLCer/reconciliation does no favours.
Then don’t attach it to reconciliation. The model is meant to be simple—bare bones, no upgrades, attachments or accessories. BUT each individual is free to add such accessories, attachments and upgrades for their personal usage. That is the part we need to accept and understand.
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Niceing them home would make things so simple, but that’s not really why we should be nice—and it doesn’t work anyway.
Exactly - much as I hate the ambiguous word "nice". Choosing to be bitter and unpleasant is not a long standing healthy way to live. We may have just cause but holding onto it and refusing to be "nice" works against us.
For me grace and dignity will always over rule the anger and bitterness.
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but there seems a trend toward avoiding the mention of reconciliation since it can take the focus off of Self. This fails to acknowledge the initial purpose for which many LBSs come to this forum. Reconciliation still needs to remain a part of discussion, even though it need not be the primary or even secondary or tertiary focus. This is a site for LBSs and especially established to be a safe haven for Standers who may feel persecuted at other forums. Standers want to reconcile. It may not happen, but they get to choose what they want, even if they do not get it.
Thank you RCR.
This site includes many views and I would say very few standers. I can understand why information is taken differently depending upon your personal decision regarding your future relationship, if at all with the MLCer.
understand it as a Way of Grace, being gracious, kind, compassionate.
It is the way I choose to live. The way I would want to be treated if the situation was reversed. "Paving the way" made me stronger, because I can face him without anger, bitterness or any regrets of how I have treated him.
It has never "stopped" me from growing, from building a different life. On the contrary, being "nice" to him requires much less energy than trying to be "right". It goes along with the acceptance that I believe he is in crisis (thank you DGU for your much verbalized phrase to me..."xyzcf, what part of the word crisis don't you understand?")
Nobody forces you to choose "paving the way" as an action that you may wish to use. For anyone that would like to reconcile, and I think that doesn't just mean standers for I have know of people who have been in other relationships and years later have reconciled with their MLCer, it is a term to explain some of the things that you do in your interactions with them.
Some people will never have contact again with their MLCer but many of us still do. That is our choice as is the way we treat them when we do encounter them in various aspects of our lives.
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What ‘Pave the Way’ means to me now (no longer a newbie):
- To make the rough places smooth or to remove stumbling blocks that may have formed over the many years together
- To overlay the path with genuine love, grace, strength, emotional and spiritual maturity which impart a sense of peace, hope, goodness and magnanimity to anyone that glances my way, not the least of whom is my MLCer.
- ‘Do unto others’ in practice
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Acorn, Your definition of 'Pave the Way' is lovely and a model for how to behave when faced with any adversity. I am searching for grace and your second line captures that concept. Thank you for sharing.
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The reason why you see people saying Paving The Way is a waste of time (myself included) is because most of us will never reconcile. Therefore, wasting time Paving The Way (like Treasur asked, for what) that is geared at the MLCer and MLC outcome and not geared at the LBS is a waste a time, as well as another level of worry for LBS that are dealing with BD.
Like Thunder said, Paving The Way is more effective at BD/early on. Exactly the time period LBS tend either to be a mess and/or need to focus on themselves.
What is the purpose of something that is only going to serve a handful of LBS rather than most LBS and why do you find it so important given it does not seem to affect the odds? The odds lie on the LBS wanting, or not wanting, the MLCer back.
Even if HS did not existed I actually Paved The Way according to your definition. It was stupid. It would had been better to put the energy and thought on my rather than thinking it was a good idea to be nice to my nasty, violent MLCer. He would dine at our flat, would be there nearly every day, we attended social functions together, etc. Result? Zero.
How can you determine that 'Paving the Way' is a waste of time 'because you will never reconcile'. Unless you have a magic ball to see into the future you do not know what is ahead. And if you actively choose NOT to pave the way, then how do you know that is exactly the reason why you never reconciled? ???
Paving the way will work for some and not for others. With each individual LBS, and each individual MLCer there are to many factors to determine that it is ''a waste of time'' because ''they will never come back''.
I think Paving the way is certainly important before and after the 'tunnel'...but I believe it is also important in between. Consistency, built up strength, positivity, determination are important throughout. It can't just be at the beginning then ''oh they are in the tunnel I am allowed to be bitter and angry and it will magically work because it doesn't matter what I do now''. ::) It has to be a consistent change. A change that is for YOU, to make YOU a better healthier person, but it MIGHT benefit your MLCer if they choose to return.
The purpose of having Paving the way is to help people learn not only how to interact with their MLCer...but for other troubled relationships in their life, and even how to help your relationship with yourself.
As for filtering and deleting information because it doesn't help 'most people'??? Who determines what information is helpful? Who decides if it affects the odds?
And going off that the ''odds lie on the lbs wanting or not wanting the mlcer back'' well of course it appears that way...we are a website full of LBS. Most websites that can be found are websites dedicated to LBS point of view. It is going to look like either we want our marriage back, or that we move on and decide. It is going to look like it doesn't matter what we do to our MLCer, they are all crazy, nothing we do can change that.
But logically, emotionally, and intellectually that doesn't make sense. Add to that the fact that many MLCers who return say that things DID affect them. The small kindnesses shown by the person they betrayed, the fact the LBS didn't treat them 'how they deserved', that after all the pain the LBS still treated them with respect and kindness....these few stories all have a running theme and it is that it DID matter how the LBS behaved. Not in single little incidences, or one off behaviours, but the overall theme of treatment.
It may not be our fault that they are running about like a lunatic...but how WE choose to behave and handle the situation absolutely 1000% DOES matter.
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Add to that the fact that many MLCers who return say that things DID affect them. The small kindnesses shown by the person they betrayed, the fact the LBS didn't treat them 'how they deserved', that after all the pain the LBS still treated them with respect and kindness....these few stories all have a running theme and it is that it DID matter how the LBS behaved. Not in single little incidences, or one off behaviors, but the overall theme of treatment.
It may not be our fault that they are running about like a lunatic...but how WE choose to behave and handle the situation absolutely 1000% DOES matter.
Mortesbride-
I love how you expressed this! What you said is how I viewed/still view Paving the way. I know I am still very new to all of this, but treating someone how I would want to be treated is what I try to consistently do. I ask myself: If I had been the one to blow up my M and do these crazy things, what is it that would make me feel that the situation could be reconciled? What would make me feel safe with the person who I hurt so badly?
Maybe the MLCer does not "see" everything that we are doing, but what about the times when they are seeing more clearly? When those times come, what do we want them to see from us? I certainly don't want my H to see a bitter, angry W who holds resentment and judgement against him. No, I want him to see a W who loves unconditionally, who knows how to forgive and treat him with respect and kindness.
I think by doing this we can hold up our heads and know that we are acting in a manor that we do not have to feel ashamed of later on. We also lead others to treat us with the same respect and kindness.
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There is a shifting point I think when we do these things bc of who WE are and how WE choose to respond to adversity as opposed to doing things in order to try to influence someone else to see us in a particular way or change their thoughts, feelings or actions. Most of us initially probably do interpret Paving The Way as being the latter first and then slowly move to the former.
Imho the language of Paving and Way does imply some kind of activity towards an outcome, Paving in order to create a Way to or for someone or something which I think can be easy to misinterpret initially. I don't like it simply bc I think the language feeds into some unhelpful LBS instinctive 'weak spots'...and it seems to confuse a lot of us and either lead us to trade in things we should perhaps not or beat ourselves up for failing to be nice/kind/calm/understanding/strong enough often when we are simultaneously being blamed or gaslit into feeling at fault.....but the content for me is about Grace. It is about behaving in a wsy which does not add more damage to anyone and allowing the possibility of some kind of shared healing and reconciliation in the broadest sense after the time of crisis ends.
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IMO, Paving the Way is for the LBS.
Not that it guarantees a reconciliation but it provides opportunity. Not only for reconciliation but also other things in our lives. It provides home for something good to come out of this someday.
Many of us have children, there will be times in the future when LBS and MLCer will be brought together and need to co-exist for the sake of the kids/family. B-Days, Graduations, Birth, Marriages, Funerals, etc are just some things that come to mind. I do not want to be the one that is there and is bitter and ruining an event for another member of my family.
Here is an example of what I don't want in my future: My D's wedding. Future SIL's parents were separated pending a divorce. Both came to the wedding alone. Neither one of them would sit at the parents table next to the bridal table. They didn't have to sit side by side...just be there. Both refused to sit there if the other one was there. My D was unable to have the traditional parents table that she planned on. Sad....it didn't ruin the day but it did throw a monkey wrench into what was THEIR day...not the parents day. I will tell you this.....SIL mom was a WAS. She moved out in the middle of the night while he was at work. He wasn't the nicest man but she chose to sneak out. Other details I don't know and don't want to know either.
Anyhow...I don't want to be that person now or in the future. I don't want to be the cause of distress to someone else if I can avoid it.
This is my personal choice. My choice to try to be a better person through his MLC. My choice to do the right that I can live with. After all....I am the one who has to live with the consequences of the decisions I make.
If I am mean and bitter to him just because he hurt me....what am I gaining from all of this. Nothing. I am worse than him because I don't have the emotional imbalance at this time. I have clear level headed thinking. My actions would have been vindictiveness and plain meanness on my part. I am not in HS anymore. Leave that for the teens...I want to think I have grown past all that drama.
Paving the Way and treating H like a human and not a monster is helping me to heal. I can hold my head high and say no matter what life is throwing at me....I am making the best of it. I am not bad mouthing him. I am not blaming him. I am not hateful and spiteful.
This is all helping me to be able to be in his presence during family functions and other times. It has allowed us to work together for the common good on some projects. Granted my H is more milder than some I have read about but I also believe if I chose to be mean and bitter that he would have less courage to attend some functions when I was present. He would be less apt to contact me now and then. The kids and grandkids would then pay the price for my negative actions.
This is how I see Paving the Way. I am Paving the Way for something positive in the future....even if I should choose something other than marriage, we can still be amicable when the time is right because I wasn't mean and vindictive during his MLC. It is not easy but it is worth it so far!
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Great explanation, Sam.
My much loved father often used to say that when the chips are down, what matters most is if you can look at your own face in the mirror and know you did your best. As you say, Sam, that you can live with your own choices and actions. All the Paving The Way content for me is about that. Being able to look at your own face in the mirror regardless of what others do or don't do. I couldn't stop the destruction or lies or abuse, but I could choose not to add to it and not to let it take more from me than I was prepared to pay. I didn't always choose wisely or well as I struggled, but I have nothing to feel ashamed about or need to lie about. Bc of my own values, it mattered to me to honour myself, who my h had been and the marriage we had made by working hard to treat everyone involved with respect and fairness even though others often did not behave that way. I suppose the question that always helped me was to consider what choice of response would feel better for me in 5 years time looking back as opposed to a reaction that might make me feel better for an hour or two.
Actually thinking about it now, this WAS something I could fight for, something I COULD choose when there were so many other things I had no choice about at all. In a weird way maybe, this was where I took my power back.
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I don't think anyone should ever be mean and bitter - in any situation.
I also agree that "paving the way" with a vanisher is a bit of a moot point.
I think where some of us are disagreeing is in the language about being "nice," "gracious," "kind" etc to the MLCer throughout.
Again, I don't believe we should be the opposite of those things: "mean," "bitter," "spiteful," etc.
But different situations call for different things. Some LBS can be kind and gracious and that's great.
But for some, being nice and kind in the face of cruelty doesn't feel right, and probably gives a wrong impression that the LBS will accept cruel behavior.
So perhaps instead of paving the way meaning "be kind and gracious," it should just mean, "don't instigate or engage in fighting" and rather than being kind to someone who is literally causing severe damage to your life, just be neutral. Don't vent your anger on them. Don't lecture them on what's right and wrong.
Protect yourself as much as you can financially. But don't feel you have to behave in ways that don't feel right to you. If your MLCer is being cruel and nasty, you don't have to say, "You're a good man and I love you." And you don't have to offer them coffee when they come by to pick up the kids. And you don't have to help them out of a jam they got themselves in. And you don't have to answer every call or text.
IF you're standing, you just have to take care of yourself and not be a constant fuming ball of anger. It's kind of as simple as that.
You don't have to make your MLCer view you as the nicest, kindest, most generous and forgiving person in the world (because they won't, no matter what you do). You just have to maintain your dignity in the face of a horrible situation (which will show them what maturity and strength is) and do what you need to do for yourself without doing anything to deliberately hurt/strike back at them and without an endless stream of nasty remarks and reminders of what they're doing and how wrong it is.
Just my two cents. If you want to pave the way, you can and should, but your needs (and those of your kids, if you have them) should still come first.
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Forgot to say:
In my situation, if I were to be all nice and friendly with my MLC H who abandoned me and changed his phone number while I was in chemo, it would send him a message that, yeah, I'm nice but I'm also a doormat, and it would make me feel like I am not being true to myself because my true self doesn't allow people to treat me that way.
I got a message from my vanisher on July 1st - on Messenger, the only avenue of communication he currently has because HE chose to close all other avenues.
Messenger was the only avenue of communication he had with OW when they first started talking too. But I'm not OW. I was graciously "leaving space" for him even after I stopped standing by silently staying open to him should he ever reach out and really need my help.
He on the other hand was the opposite. He changed his phone number when I was arguably in my darkest hour ever.
Then he sends me a message through the same platform he used to begin his affair way back when. I have not even opened it or read it. If he truly wants to communicate with me, he will - through email or by phone.
I'm not standing, but if I were, I would do the same thing. I would not answer his message. Because to me, paving the way is also not being at their beck and call, not letting them manipulate and maneuver everything to suit them, and allowing them space to look at their situation and realize on their own why and how things are the way they are and what they might do to change them.
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The sticking point seems to be: Is paving the way something we do to get the MLCER back, allow them an open way to get back if they choose to come back, or is it for ourselves? As I have said, I interpret it as 2 and 3. Perhaps the article, when rewritten, can be clearer that our actions may or may not matter to the MLCer, will always matter to us, and if the paving hurts no one and has no expectations attached, then where is the harm? And if your feelings change, you don't have to pave the way indefinitely. If being courteous to a monster causes you pain, don't be present. If they stop being a monster next week, be courteous if it doesn't harm you. (That's all paving, imo, handled calmly and maturely)
For those who don't want to reconcile, and want to put up a blockade behind them as they move forward, that's ok, too.
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You just have to maintain your dignity in the face of a horrible situation (which will show them what maturity and strength is) and do what you need to do for yourself without doing anything to deliberately hurt/strike back at them and without an endless stream of nasty remarks and reminders of what they're doing and how wrong it is.
Because to me, paving the way is also not being at their beck and call, not letting them manipulate and maneuver everything to suit them, and allowing them space to look at their situation and realize on their own why and how things are the way they are and what they might do to change them.
I believe these statements can apply to so many things in life in general. Be it spouse or child or friend or co-worker who is doing the wrong things. Be there but don't be there. Love and support from a distance. Let them help themselves first.
A lot of wisdom in those statements.
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Good point, OR.
I see it as 2 and 3 also.
And that if Paving The Way is about 'do no harm', the individual entry point is to be clear about what is harmful to THEM and taking responsibility for ourselves by putting that first is also about moving away from being either a fixer or a victim which helps pave the way too. And it does probably change over time and with detachment.
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Pave the way with clear road signs, placed every 3 feet.
‘Beware of the boundaries’. ;D
You just have to maintain your dignity in the face of a horrible situation (which will show them what maturity and strength is) and do what you need to do for yourself without doing anything to deliberately hurt/strike back at them and without an endless stream of nasty remarks and reminders of what they're doing and how wrong it is.
Just maintaining dignity is good enough of ‘paving the way’, especially at the beginning of LBS’s journey, I think. Self respect, self care, resilience, counting one’s blessings, cleaning up our own side of the street.
As for shooting mean comments, name calling, gossiping and moral grandstanding, I would see that as planting land mines. Who in their right mind would want to walk on that sort of path?!
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Pave the way with clear road signs, placed every 3 feet.
‘Beware of the boundaries’. ;D
:)
As for shooting mean comments, name calling, gossiping and moral grandstanding, I would see that as planting land mines. Who in their right mind would want to walk on that sort of path?!
:)
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Inspired to post!
I am one of the ones who has not been a fan of 'Paving the Way', even though, if I delve into the subtleties of it, it is precisely what I have done over the past three years.
It has also served me well; my h no longer monsters, he is financially responsible - very generous actually - and he is quite respectful. Bummer about the ow two blocks from me, but at least he keeps her well away from our sons. The boys have not even seen her since the spring of 2018. Yay!
Ultimately, my feeling is that "Paving the Way" is a clunky, misleading name for an excellent concept.
Remember the saying, "know your audience." Paving the Way is not a simple idea, and the problem I see is not with the concept itself, but with the audience it is written for. There is a rhythm to the phrase, that naturally adds the word "home" to the end of it, and clearly (to me at least) implies that we can do things that will bring our mlc'er back to us.
That is not exactly how Paving the Way works, and it certainly is not what should be the focus. Most of us here for awhile know that now.
But to panicked, traumatized new LBS's who would tear off a limb just to put an end to the horror; who have cried themselves dehydrated, just aching to go back to the life, and spouse, they loved (I was one of these, and am getting triggered just typing this), the possibility the we could in some way "pave the way...home" is like water in the desert, and there is no subtlety when you are dying of thirst.
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there is no subtlety when you are dying of thirst.
This.
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Nas I completely agree with everything you say. It’s how I feel to. There’s a really thin line between paving the way and being a doormat and paving the way and keeping your dignity in tact.
I don’t have the opportunity to pave the way now with minimal contact with ex h but I have tried to act with grace and dignity by not playing dirty with the court cases and by being honest and fair throughout. And mostly putting the kids first.
If he wasn't in MLC and was old pre MLC him he would be proud of my strength and thankful. But right now nothing I do will make a difference and his distorted reality is based on his own narrative and whatever doesn’t fit with that narrative will be dismissed.
So paving the way for me is about getting through this without ever looking back with regret at any of my actions and focusing on actions that my girls will hopefully admire and look up to me for one day. Even if ex h doesn’t. It’s paving the way forward for me and them & I’d ex h wants to join then so be it. It’s not paving the way for him to come back .
Personally I don’t like the term ‘paving the way’ as the term is ambiguous and I associate it will paving a doormat back to us what ever they do. I know this is not the meaning of it and RCR’s explaination makes sense. But I think everyone will interpret the term differently depending on their circumstances and experiences. And that’s ok.
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RCR, I used personally, for me, etc. I would say I was clear is was what it means to me. And to me it means a waste of time.
Being civil towards someone is just that.
Your article has a purpose and it is not the LBS well-being, it is reconciliation.
You cannot say it has a purpose and that was why you used Paving The Way and then say it is not really what it means. Makes no sense and, as far as I am concerned, it is having double standards, one for you, one for others.
I don't think it is not possible to separate RCR the stander from 15 years ago from RCR the writer because she writes as a Stander and about what worked for her. RCR does not write from the point of view of a long-term LBS with an abusive MLCer that does not wish to interact, let alone, reconcile with her MLCer.
I am fully aware why people come to HS at first. Even I come here for the same reason I my BD had been years before. It does not change the fact that most of us will never reconcile nor that Paving The Way is more effective early on and that early on many, if not most, LBS are not capable of Paving The Way.
Yes, HS was founded to support them in that purpose. However the reality is that most here stop being standers and nearly no one reconciles.
The Paving The Way article in itself has an agenda, reconciliation. If it is aimed at reconciliation, that is an agenda.
Like I have said many times, if one is Paving The Way one is Paving The Way towards something, and per the article the something is reconciliation.
Mort, HS has existed since 2010. Most of its members never reconciled and never will. It is a well known fact, including by RCR. The odds are extremely low. MLC tends to last a very, very long time. Life goes on, LBS have new relationships and marriages.
I think you are still seeing things the way many early on LBS see, MLCer and marriage rather than LBS. It is normal, but, with time, many of us change the way we see things.
Your husband had a short crisis and he was not a particularly nasty MLCer, RCR. What would you have done if he was still in Replay 10 or more years down the road and if he was a violent, abusive MLCer? Stand? I recall you writing that if your husband's Replay hadn't end you would give yourself a timeline. Yourself, not him.
I understand every singe part of the word crisis. I had a MLC myself. I also know that when it comes to violence, or for that matter cheating, it makes no difference why. Someone was violent and/or cheated. For some reason, we tend to see MLC cheating as different from other cheating. We also tend to pretend it is not has a big, hurtful problem as it is.
OW/OM are a sympthom. It does not change the fact that OW/OM tend to be the number one reason why there will be no reconciliation. OffRoad and other LBS are clear, if their MLCer has OW/OM they will stop standing and be done.
Yet, we seem to want people to accept and take back someone that, frankly, as far as I am concerned once I gave a step back, is not worthy of us. Think about it. Standing for a cheater that is often living or even married to someone else. Standing for someone that is abusive. Pretty much all MLCers are abusive. Most are not physically abusive, but many are emotionally, psycologically, finanacially, abusive.
What is the logic? What is the logic of telling people to stand for someone that has done such atrocious things and whose crisis can last 10 or more years? Wouldn't it make more sense to say, unless you are a Covenat Keeper or similar, after a few years you may want to consider move one. Or something similar.
Most of us end up doing just that anyway.
I do not attach Paving The Way to anything. The article does. Why not get rid of Paving The Way and write about the LBS well-being? Like Bewildered mentioned, the term is ambigous. And like I and Treasur mentioned, if one is Paving The Way, one is doing it with a goal. The term itself implies an endgame.
I am not certain abusers and/or cheaters deserve grace, kindness and compassion. For me the abuse or cheated person does. The one in the wrong, in particular abusers? Not really. I am not saying be rude or unkind. Just that it may be better to let it go and not to interact with them.
If our actions are to matter to the MLCer, we are doing things for the MLCer, not for us.
Just maintaining dignity is good enough of ‘paving the way’, especially at the beginning of LBS’s journey, I think. Self respect, self care, resilience, counting one’s blessings, cleaning up our own side of the street.
This. I think this is all the Paving The Way that is necessary and is LBS focussed, not MLCer or marriage.
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Anjae, I agree with you and have said more than once Paving the way is a huge waste of time in my opinion.
1. A concept that is so loosely defined as to encompass nearly all things is not a theory or a portion of a theory or a pattern or recipe for healing or reconciling. It's designed to be all encompassing and all inconclusive but loses meaning and applicability in doing so in my opinion.
2. It is not the job of the LBS to make it easier or harder for the MLCer to return. It is the job of the party who wants to return to make effort. The LBS is supposed to have learned not to be a fixer. So why then do we need to make it smoother for ex to return?
3. Anything worth having is worth working for. Human beings value what they work hard for much more than what they acquire easily. In my opinion why go through the hell of waking up from a crisis and fixing your life only to get what you always knew you had anyway?
4. I agree I do not understand the concept of separating RCR stander from RCR writer.
5. If the MLCer is going to attempt to return he will do so regardless of our actions in my opinion and my experience. I am worth the effort. If he doesn't think so, then he does not deserve me in my opinion.
6. I did not spend a single minute making it easier for my ex to return yet he has wanted to and actively searched for ways to return for well over 2 years now.
7. I walked and hacked my way through hell to get to where I am now. In the process I learned and grew. Ex deserves the same opportunity to learn and grow and feel the same sort of pride I feel. He can't do that if I help him by providing a paved way. That's what his mother did and laid the seeds for this MLC. Again in my opinion.
8. Change only lasts when one does it for herself, not with an agenda towards becoming a more attractive person to another, in my opinion.
9.In my opinion, the focus on agape love and behaviors is counter productive in healthy healing. It pushes the LBS to skip normal healthy emotional stages like anger so as to declare they have forgiven the MLCer and adopt a false persona of a Zen like master. You know why I can talk with my MLCer easily now? Because I worked out my anger at the time instead of stuffing it down to erupt later.
10. Time spent focused in any way on the MLCer is a waste of time in my opinion. If it happens deal with it then. Either we have impact or we don't. You can't have it both ways. Yes, try to conduct yourself with self respect and dignity.
11. The opposite of agape love is not bitterness. It's indifference in my opinion. I'm a bit tired of bitterness being used to describe those who either dont want to reconcile or those who are situationally angry.
And I'll second Anjae's suggestion that it's of more importance (in my opinion) to write substantive things focused on the LBS rather than the MLCer. It's their crisis after all. If the focus were different, perhaps more people would feel this experience is ultimately a positive.
Lp
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I don't actually remember the content specifically on "Paving the Way " and I (quite frankly) don't care to reread it now. With that said, I remember the feeling I had when reading it 4 years ago. And I was comforted by it. I probably Tried to take the meaning of Paving the Way to mean I could possibly affect an outcome but, I think that's what I needed, so I was comforted.
There's cliche' with the concept,which does complicate the idea behind it because we're not really physically working with one of those huge concrete rollers, smashing down the rubble to make the road smoother, but it is comforting to know the rubble can be rearranged to benefit us - and perhaps the wayward spouse in the end.
For those reconciled, paving the way worked wonders, right? For those of us still left to go forward with our lives taking on a new direction outside of reconciliation, the concept differs and becomes about our own path in life. I think "maintaining dignity" is truly on the mark in describing that paving when one is not reconciled. Like it or not, reconciliation is extremely rare.
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All LP said. With a couple of side notes.
For me Agape love is universal love/love for all humanity that I translate in something as simple as be polite and civil to everyone. No need of a fancy complicate idea, just something I learned as a child.
I do not see the opposite of Agape love as indiference, because of what I wrote above.
I'm a bit tired of bitterness being used to describe those who either dont want to reconcile or those who are situationally angry.
So am I. I would say especially LBS early on into this mess do not understand the often long, painful growth process LBS further down the road went throught. It is understandable someone not so far into their own process can find it difficult to grasp. However, when it comes to mid or old timers, even if they are Standers, it should be easy to understand.
I have no problem with anger if like LP said it is situational. It can be a great driving force foward in many ways. I see a problem if someone remains angry years down the road.
I have always said I was not angry at BD/early on, I was furious. Truly furious.
I have also always said that Mr J didn't mind it. To him it meant I still care. What he does not like one bit is that I have long stop being furious.
We were much close when I was furious. Strange, isn't it? Or not really if one thinks that anger/fury/hate are not the opposite of love.
For those reconciled, paving the way worked wonders, right?
I don't know if that is true for all people reconnecting or reconciled. Barbie did not Pave The Way. Not in my view. She made her MLCer leave, and, so far, for a number of reasons, nothing was been smooth.
MammaBear, that has long stop posting, for me was not Paving The Way, but being a doormat and competing with OW. If you want, for me, she was not thinking of her dignity, rather wanted her husband back at any cost.
It is also how I see 1trouble's efforts. Wanting the MLCer back at any cost, including personal dignity. This are my views on the matter, others may see things differently.
I think "maintaining dignity" is truly on the mark in describing that paving when one is not reconciled.
I'll go further and second Acorn that maintaining dignity is also very important when standing and for reconcilation.
Like it or not, reconciliation is extremely rare.
It is. For several reasons mentioned many times by many of us. I get a lot of heat for calling a spade a spade, but I am not going to call a spade a pen just because.
How many people reconciled since HS started, regardless of them still posting or not? Do you have numbers RCR? Both in exact numbers, or close, and in percentage?
Do not get me wrong. I love reconnections and reconciliations as much as everyone else, but I have always said most MLCer will come out of crisis and want back, but few will reconcile. I have not changed my mind. Real life and HS still support my thought.
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One of the things imho that this discussion highlights is that neither RCR (as the person whose experience led her to create HS and write all of those articles) nor HS posters are the same as when the articles were first written or when this community began. That is a normal thing, a good thing, a sign that as a community we learn and evolve as we learn. But it makes me wonder if we are always using that collective learning as precisely as we might.
Like any written document, the articles are a static snapshot of what was known and thought at the time. The posts here over many years are an unfolding legacy of information and shared learning through different eyes. The risk in treating the articles as 'gospel' tbh is no different than treating ShockSis's posts of her MLC experience as the same. It is I think ingenious to completely separate the experience of the writer from what is written. The intent is a positive one but when humans in pain are trying to make sense of the incomprehensible, they are drawn to wanting answers and certainty where it does not exist. RCR and ShockSis's experience and perspective, and indeed our own, are just that and no more than that.
Many of us are profoundly grateful that this place exists, that RCR and others came together to create it. For many of us there was a time when it probably saved our lives and/or our sanity. And many of us reach our own conclusions about MLC and surviving as an LBS through the lens of our own character and experience. Which means that we don't always agree with some of the core principles or material. Tbh I have often thought that a structured revisiting of some of the core material to expand it to include wider perspectives and experienced other than RCRs might be a constructive thing although it might not be a commitment that RCR might want to take on as a mother of young children in a restored marriage. :)
I agree with most of what LP said. I think the people coming here come with commonalities. I think with time as their individual situation unfolds we see more of the differences. But the initial starting place is relatively predictable...people are in shock, pain, bewildered and desperate in a situation that threatens the things and people they value most in their lives.. Which makes them vulnerable and not always thinking so clearly as they might otherwise do. And LBS seem on the whole to be kind, conscientious fixers in a situation where their spouse is at best lying and at worst consciously manipulating them. And there is as predictable a script for most LBS as for most MLCers in the early days at least.
I honestly believe that bc of that and bc of the facts that we all know make some things more likely and others less so, we should actively and explicitly prioritise the wellbeing of the LBS over the wellbeing of a marriage or the MLCer. Most LBS instinctively do the opposite for quite a while so HS doesn't need to do that. And we should be cautious about materials that can easily shift that balance bc it increases the risk of further damage to the LBS.
The sad truth of most of the experiences here is that they did not look like RCR's personal experience. That there are indeed very few healthy restored marriages after this experience, for a variety of reasons. And there is a lot of practical and emotional damage and destruction along the way. No amount of understanding MLC or compassion for MLCers changes those practical realities. But what an LBS does can make a difference to some of them.
Bc what is 100% sure is that the LBS needs to survive an extremely traumatic life altering experience that few people in RL will validate or understand. And they need to do that completely regardless of what happens to their marriage or spouse or family. And they need to stumble towards a healthy post-crisis life whatever that means to them and whatever happens in their situation.
Clean clear unambiguous language matters even more imho when people are distressed, confused and vulnerable, when they have been at least psychologically abused. Facts matter. Simple principles of self-care and self-protection matter. Respect for difference matters. Time matters. Explaining what some of the terms we use in simple ways matters as does explaining what they might look like in practice and how people might take the first practical steps to survive, then deal with and then heal and rebuild. What we learn as we struggle matters. Accepting that we learn at different speeds and find different solution matters.
We talk about putting the LBS first but sometimes our wish for better endings for painful stories can lead us inadvertently to not always do that. I think it is important to keep reminding ourselves to do so. Jmo.
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I still super new to this... so for me currently PTW means several things.
1) talk in terms of me and how I am developing Self...Ie “I realized I’m codependent, that’s unhealthy so I’m working on it.”
2) talk about my relationship with god, and casting my cares on him and his love.
3) talk about forgiveness, how I learned to forgive ones Self and that forgiveness can always be asked for.
4) GAL-baby steps but I’m working on it.
5)express my earnest desire to “get to know him once he’s done figuring himself out, and how long I’ve prayed for him to feel loved and safe enough to finally express himself in our marriage.”
6) told him it was perfectly okay, to not make any decisions about our marriage while he sorts himself out.
7) explained I am sorting myself out as well, and once we are done we can have a chance to meet the new people we have become.
8) talked about how yes physically we are 2 different people, we married and had god tie our souls together forever.
9) identified and apologized every time I realized my contribution to our marriage needing work. Attempt to change what needed changing.
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11. The opposite of agape love is not bitterness. It's indifference in my opinion. I'm a bit tired of bitterness being used to describe those who either dont want to reconcile or those who are situationally angry.
Bitterness is about pain and anger. I think it’s often trotted out by men about women who are not lying down and taking whatever is being doled out. I think it’s often used misogynistically and I think we should be careful of perpetuating its use about women in that belittling way as it can be a kind of internalised misogyny. It discounts and dismisses unheard fury which makes people uncomfortable. It’s rarely used to refer to men. Their anger is justified maybe? A righteous grudge?
The kind of permanent sour faced bitterness inferred is a heck of a way down the road for most lbs at any rate.
I also think forgiveness is overrated. I think it has more to do with the comfort of the onlooker than anything else. Forgiving too soon, especially when coupled religious overtones or exhortions is just a ‘spiritual
Bypass’. - a ‘painting by numbers’ kind of forgiveness without genuine understanding or acceptance. In fact burying anger is probably far more likely to lead to debilitating bitterness sometime in the future because the feelings remain unheard and unprocessed.
Women are already expected to carry out most emotional Labour for no recognition. We are encouraged to think of others’needs and feelings. I rebut the idea that because I am bloody furious I will also be bitter.
Here are the Merriam Webster definitions of bitter. Are they so very bad?
: distasteful or distressing to the mind : GALLING
a bitter sense of shame
2 : marked by intensity or severity:
a : accompanied by severe pain or suffering
a bitter death
b : being relentlessly determined : VEHEMENT
a bitter partisan
c : exhibiting intense animosity
bitter enemies
d(1) : harshly reproachful
bitter complaints
(2) : marked by cynicism and rancor
bitter contempt
was still bitter about not being chosen
e : intensely unpleasant especially in coldness or rawness
a bitter wind
3 : caused by or expressive of severe pain, grief, or regret
bitter tears
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I think the biggest thing of paving the way is for us. The LBS. It has nothing to do with paving the way for our MLCer.
It's not being a doormat or trying to nice them back. IMO it's not about them at all. It's for us.
If we don't fix ourselves , it will be impossible to reconcile with our spouse if and when that happens, or a new relationship with someone else won't work either.
We have to heal. We have to get our life back. Irreguardless of who we spend the rest of our life with. Or maybe we choose to stay alone. If we don't find peace in our life , we will stay miserable.
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I also think forgiveness is overrated. I think it has more to do with the comfort of the onlooker than anything else. Forgiving too soon, especially when coupled religious overtones or exhortions is just a ‘spiritual Bypass’. - a ‘painting by numbers’ kind of forgiveness without genuine understanding or acceptance.
You statement sounds rather harsh and skeptical to me.
Forgiveness is not rated high enough in my view. Personally, it has been one of the most important elements in our rebuilding and reconciling.
What you refer to as ‘religious overtones’ is a necessary component in my forgiveness and I make no apologies for it. Because I have been forgiven much, I also forgive my neighbour.
‘Do unto others’ has religious overtone for sure. That does not make it a spiritual bypass. Rather, it is a spiritual inspiration.
I view forgiveness as one of the major stones that paves the way.
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I am only recently starting to chew on what forgiveness means to me in my situation.
Tbh acceptance without hatred was a hard enough job for a while.
And I honestly think we need to resolve some of our own trauma and get a little strength and time/distance first before we push ourselves too hard to try to forgive. If only bc initially we might not even quite know the reality of what we have to try to forgive lol.
It is imho extremely hard to forgive people who are still actively hurting you and who show no regret or concern about it at all. There are important rewards that come with forgiveness...but I also think it comes when we feel ready and want it. And that's ok too.
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I am only recently starting to chew on what forgiveness means to me in my situation.
Tbh acceptance without hatred was a hard enough job for a while.
And I honestly think we need to resolve some of our own trauma and get a little strength and time/distance first before we push ourselves too hard to try to forgive. If only bc initially we might not even quite know the reality of what we have to try to forgive lol.
It is imho extremely hard to forgive people who are still actively hurting you and who show no regret or concern about it at all. There are important rewards that come with forgiveness...but I also think it comes when we feel ready and want it. And that's ok too.
I agree!
Practice love and forgiveness for self first in order to learn what they really are.
That process take as long as it takes, just as you said.
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It is imho extremely hard to forgive people who are still actively hurting you and who show no regret or concern about it at all.
I agree. I would go so far as to say it's hard to forgive someone who is still actively hurting you even when they might show signs of regret. They're still doing the hurting and one of the consequences of purposefully hurting someone or detrimentally affecting their finances or other aspects of their lives is that they will be upset with you.
That to me is another problem with the understanding of "paving the way." Paving the way for them to be forgiven someday if/when they choose to stop the emotional/psychological/financial abuse - how does one even go about that? (I don't include physical abuse - that to me is a level beyond, and I count my blessings I've never had to face it and would not know how to advise how to deal with it and won't presume to even think I can speak on a subject that big.)
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My 2 cents about forgiveness and paving the way.
I feel that in my situation I’m being faced more and more with trying to peel off the many, many layers of forgiveness. Just when I have peeled more off and think I am at place that I can honestly say “I forgive you”. More things come my way that I need to face. For me lately forgiveness is parallel with understanding. Understanding what happened and why it happened. I have noticed especially in the last month the more my H wakes up, the more I am able to understand this was all about him and his issues. He has yet to genuinely say “I’m sorry” and take full responsibility. I have yet to say “I forgive you”. I think it will come slow and steady.
I could not pave the way with a broken heart. The more my heart mends with work on myself the more I am able to pave the way. I feel that once his active hurting me (replay) stopped, I have been able to have more compassion and empathy for him. I feel like I am at a point now where I am maturing and he is following.
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I want to compel RCR the writer for a minute. ;) Because I agree personally with a lot of what Anjae and LP have said for us in the long term, no longer standing pool (my message here is not to contrast what either of you have said, but to point out something different). BUT, long term standing, covenant keeping without reconnecton, being divorced while standing, etc. is not where your expertise lies.
A concept that is so loosely defined as to encompass nearly all things is not a theory or a portion of a theory or a pattern or recipe for healing or reconciling. It's designed to be all encompassing and all inconclusive but loses meaning and applicability in doing so in my opinion.
I second this. And not just for personal reasons. I think you should consider that making the Paving the Way message too vague (or any of your message, for that matter) is going to be bad for website SEO, and therefore not effectively place in Google so those who most want the message can find it, and find this site.
The forum itself has become more diverse, with everything from Covenant Keepers to non-standing remarried LBSs on either end of the spectrum. People can choose to continue posting, sharing knowledge, and building relationships, but that doesn't necessarily mean your message has to adapt to fit everyone's situation. It's better if it doesn't.
Looking at some of the other standing resources: the Steinkamps and Rejoice Marriage Ministries make no bones about being Covenant Keepers. MLC, abusive marriage, 2 week LBS or 2 decade LBS, doesn't matter. They don't change the message to adapt to the audience, but stay on-target and let those that either initially fit but change fade off the site, or repel those that know right away. They know their audience will read and re-read every article, buy the resources, attend the retreats. That's where they put their focus. Same with Joe Beam. He focuses on the limerent affairs because he had one. He's big investment for most LBSs, but he puts a time limit on it (4 years, if I remember) so they're aware there is a cutoff point to his expertise.
Neither of these are "better" resources - not what I'm saying - but they are good models of reaching the right audience and not swaying focus from what they know best. I think you are the perfect resource for a very specific audience, and I would hate to see that get lost by trying to please everyone (even if I am not the audience any longer). Don't second guess what your experience has given you to teach, because it is that experience, not all of ours as individuals, that will most help those it's meant for.
I don't think you got "lucky" with Chuck. I think you did define the kind of MLCer he was, and your behavior with him *did* impact whether you reconnected. I resonated a lot with your message when I found you - more than any other site I'd come across, and believe me, like most of us I was reading them all 24/7. My guy was a clinging boomerang, out less than a year, hadn't filed for divorce, and seemingly was going to be financially responsible at some point. I felt I knew him better than anyone and had the space to research and Pave. And yes, I was Paving for a return and felt my research via your work and the anecdotes from the forum gave me confidence - BUT - I did not hold ANY of them responsible to guarantee a return! It was my Knowing that kept me going, and the writing just gave me hope and encouragement.
My guy changed types, my healing turned more inward, and "it is what it is" (yuck, sorry!). Do I think you need to change your writings to reflect my outcome? Absolutely not. If I want to tell my story, there's my option. It is of value to people who resonate most with it. Anjae, LP, everyone else here - your stories have the same effect. They are YOUR teachings. And many here have gained so much from them.
But RCR, your story shouldn't be an exercise in crowdsourcing, in my opinion. You know what you lived and what you can most benefit the world with. Get clear on that, who the message is intended for, and don't worry about the rest of us. We're fine. :) Your true message and writing will draw out the keywords that will get you in the search bar of the people who are hurting most at this moment. It's okay if it isn't for everyone. This isn't an argument about whether people should stand or not. It's one woman's story of triumph "when your spouse is having a MLC and you don't want a divorce."
"I can't make reconciliation guarantees, but I will throw you a lifeline," - taken right off of the front page, says it all. That lifeline helped many of us, and that's what we came for. You don't have to heal us. We're helping each other with that.
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Ready2Transform..I wish I was good at finding emojii's because I would send one to you of an applause and standing ovation. You just nailed it!!!!!
No site is going to be able to be all things for all people. It is impossible to be that.
I see though that people believe that they are "right" and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is "wrong."
It is condescending and hurtful to those with different beliefs and values and shuts down any respectful dialogue or debate.
RCR, your site has been tremendously helpful to thousands of people. You never guaranteed that the MLCer would return.
What I find missing now on HS, is understanding what MLC is and any empathy shown for the MLCer is considered to be a bad thing. Words like "doormat" and "not being detached" are used for those of us who continue to have hope of healing in our families...that healing doesn't necessarily mean the marriage will reconcile...but it is important in my mind that healing takes place for all members of the family.
Change happens. It is inevitable and we grow through adding to the body of knowledge.
Perhaps it is important to remember, there isn't a "right" or "wrong" answer.. each situation is different and each LBSer is coming from their own experience, values and beliefs.
I follow this thread and wonder..is it really so important? The term "paving the way" creates in some people such rage....
I don't really care what you call it..doesn't matter. It won't change how I interact with my husband. Change the term if that pleases people..the concept, as we each see it in our own families will remain regardless of what you call it.
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You don't have to heal us. We're helping each other with that.
Very well said, R2T.
I just want to say that not long ago someone questioned why people stay on this site for many years after they've stopped standing or hoping for their MLCer to recover/return.
And this statement is the exact answer to that question.
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I also think forgiveness is overrated. I think it has more to do with the comfort of the onlooker than anything else. Forgiving too soon, especially when coupled religious overtones or exhortions is just a ‘spiritual Bypass’. - a ‘painting by numbers’ kind of forgiveness without genuine understanding or acceptance.
You statement sounds rather harsh and skeptical to me.
Forgiveness is not rated high enough in my view. Personally, it has been one of the most important elements in our rebuilding and reconciling.
What you refer to as ‘religious overtones’ is a necessary component in my forgiveness and I make no apologies for it. Because I have been forgiven much, I also forgive my neighbour.
‘Do unto others’ has religious overtone for sure. That does not make it a spiritual bypass. Rather, it is a spiritual inspiration.
I view forgiveness as one of the major stones that paves the way.
Does it sound harsh? Maybe. Perhaps I should more accurately have written that forgiveness is often misunderstood rather than overrated. Scepticism? Well I don’t believe that’s a bad thing:
“Skepticism (American English) or scepticism (British English, Australian English, and Canadian English) is generally a questioning attitude or doubt towards one or more items of putative knowledge or belief or dogma.[1][2] It is often directed at domains, such as the supernatural, morality (moral skepticism), theism (skepticism about the existence of God), or knowledge (skepticism about the possibility of knowledge, or of certainty).[3] Formally, skepticism as a topic occurs in the context of philosophy, particularly epistemology, although it can be applied to any topic such as politics, religion, and pseudoscience.”
What exactly to we mean by forgiveness, philosophically and psychically. (Religion isn’t necessary for forgiveness although it is integral to all religious philosophy).
My feeling is that forgiveness is a deeply complex concept and it can be bandied about as if those who are not ready to give it or who think deeply about whether they are willing or able to are somehow ‘less than’. People whose self esteem is battered probably aren’t strong enough to give meaningful forgiveness so that needs to be restored first. Perhaps unwillingness to forgive is the attempt of a damaged ego (ego in the psychological sense -a sense of selfhood - not the Buddhist) to restore itself. To protest and to say “I matter”. It might be a good step on the way to acceptance, which I believe is a more realistic aim, at least for a while. I feel fairly sure at the moment that granting forgiveness, for me, needs me to be a whole person again first. And forgiveness is far easier where there is remorse. Is remorse essential? I’d guess it is for many.
There is the question of whether complete forgiveness is achievable - that the unconscious never forgets and is timeless, and that the injury can pop up as fresh as ever for as long as we live so that ambivalence might be the best we can achieve.
I believe that it is tempting to claim forgiveness and believe we have forgiven when we are desperate to have our marriages restored, when in reality we have not. Given the rather grumpy comportment for many months, of many returned spouses, forgiveness seems to require a forbearance and goodness I don’t think I possess. I remember saying I had forgiven, and I meant it but it transpires thst what I really meant was that I would forgive if he stayed and behaved like a proper husband.
I’m not bashing forgiveness. The world would be better with more of it but I think there is too
Much unthinking pressure to forgive and less than perfect understanding of what forgiveness might look like.
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I don't think you got "lucky" with Chuck. I think you did define the kind of MLCer he was, and your behavior with him *did* impact whether you reconnected. I resonated a lot with your message when I found you - more than any other site I'd come across, and believe me, like most of us I was reading them all 24/7. My guy was a clinging boomerang, out less than a year, hadn't filed for divorce, and seemingly was going to be financially responsible a
i agree. I think it is fairly clear to the reader that RCR always had her act together and had boundaries. I also don’t think the site can be all things to all people. We have to take responsibility for our own responses to the advice and get individual Professional help if we need it.
There are other sites that take a tougher approach that are easily found. If we stay here it is because it offers something we appreciate.
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No site is going to be able to be all things for all people. It is impossible to be that.
This is something we can agree on.
Many of the problems begin in that this site tries to be all things to all people muddying the message at times to unrecognizability.
I don't see anyone trying to be right and declaring others wrong. I see people offering different viewpoints rather respectfully. That's one of the things I get from this site, exposure to a wide variety of opinions.
Empathy is fine and I don't see anyone suggesting empathy is wrong. I see a line being drawn between being empathetic and being a pretzeled doormat.
I also don't see anyone in a rage. No one is yelling or calling names. It's simple mature dialog between adults who were asked for a personal interpretation of views. Because it's personal, there are differences. Some speak more directly than others. It's their style which may not be what another would choose but they have a right to express themselves in the style true to themselves as long as they are not insulting or abusing another just as softer people aren't asked to adjust their style of speaking to being more direct.
As with all things in life it's about one's perspective. And this time you are absolutely correct that no site can be all things to all people. RCR would have to define for herself where she wants this site to go if she chooses to change direction. I don't really see that happening to one extreme or the other though.
Lp
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I see a line being drawn between being empathetic and being a pretzeled doormat.
The semantics.....who gets to judge that a poster is showing empathy (by perhaps "paving the way") or is a pretzeled doormat?
Why do we use the word doormat...all words are interpreted differently by each of us and there are negative and positive meanings attached to vocabulary..perhaps words like doormat cause some standers to cringe?
If we attach so much meaning to the phrases used on HS, ( and there is quite a specific vocabulary used)and they cause us so much distress then what's the point of writing anything at all?
Perhaps I am more "sensitive" to the tone..it feels like rage to me, perhaps that isn't the right word...but it doesn't feel supportive of other's who see things differently. Since I am very strong as well in my own beliefs, just like Velika who started this "dialogue" and felt that "paving the way" traumatizes LBSers, I "hear" positions taken that don't allow for dialogue, but tell me that my way is wrong.
Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.
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Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.
I am sorry that this is how you might feel sometimes, xyz.
Speaking for myself, I think it is a shame if that is a barrier to your sharing updates bc I think we can all learn from different experiences and particularly perhaps from those further down the path. The script from the earlier stages seems to take quite diverging paths over time and that is useful for others to see imho.
I am not sure I see the same link from the sad fact that returns are rare to the statement making you feel as if others view you as a doormat bc of your choice to stand or how you stand. You will know of course how much of this is about your own tender spots vs the tender spots of others. I have often found your perspective to be a thought provoking one as, although my situation and choices are different, my faith and my vows are important to me too and it is not always easy to reconcile that with my new realities.
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Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.
I am sorry that this is how you might feel sometimes, xyz.
Speaking for myself, I think it is a shame if that is a barrier to your sharing updates bc I think we can all learn from different experiences and particularly perhaps from those further down the path. The script from the earlier stages seems to take quite diverging paths over time and that is useful for others to see imho.
I am not sure I see the same link from the sad fact that returns are rare to the statement making you feel as if others view you as a doormat bc of your choice to stand or how you stand. You will know of course how much of this is about your own tender spots vs the tender spots of others. I have often found your perspective to be a thought provoking one as, although my situation and choices are different, my faith and my vows are important to me too and it is not always easy to reconcile that with my new realities.
I also feel sorry you sometimes don’t want to update xyzcf. I think there is a huge difference between someone in the early days who is blinded by hope and pain and allowing abusive behaviour and someone who has worked/ is working things through, perhaps with professional help, and makes a decision they can best live with. I like reading your perspective and experience and have found it valuable to me.
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I agree XYZ. In the early days it is so important to understand that the odds are against the MLCer coming back. It helps the LBS to focus on their healing. It allows the decision to stand or not to be made with all of the facts.
You chose to stand with those facts in front of you due to your personal convictions and beliefs. I also hold marriage, and my vows in high regard and find this situation incredibly difficult to reconcile with how much I am willing to endure. I think your perspective is valuable and much can be learned from your experience.
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Fist off, allow me a correction. It was not Acorn that maintaining dignity is all the necesarry Paving The Way. It was Nas. Acorn quoted Nas.
Speaking for myself, I don't think forgiveness is overrated. Forgiveness is for us. I find that forgiving lifted a weight. Forgiving does not equal wanting to reconnect or reconcile. I also always said that it is probably easy for forgive when the MLCer is not back than when they are.
I see though that people believe that they are "right" and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is "wrong."
Funny, I see the same from those who don't like the truth, that few will reconcile. Even if all facts and evidences say that few will reconcile there are people that, for some reason, seem to want to hide the head in the sand. I am speaking in general terms.
It is condescending and hurtful to those with different beliefs and values and shuts down any respectful dialogue or debate.
That could be said for those of us who do not see the use of Paving The Way and that are not Standing. Even if many, including long time LBS have long been in new relationships or marriages and long time standers are rare, those who are not standing often taken a beat. A huge beat.
Rage? No rage from me. I just find it illogical. If one is Paving The Way, as the expression itself implies, one is doing it towards something or someone. And that is contray to detach and let it go. Since we know most will never reconcile the way Paving The Way is written and the purpose of its use only serves a handful of LBS.
You may be confussion having an opinion with being enraged.
Even standing implies an outcome. One is standing for something or someone. HS has many contradictory terms and ideas. Yet, once again, standing is at odds with letting it go and no expectations. If one is standing one has an expectation.
Confusing, right?
I see a line being drawn between being empathetic and being a pretzeled doormat.
Agree.
Doormat is used by RCR in the articles. It is easy to understand and accurate. Some LBS are doormats. They allow the MLCer to walk all over them, bow to the MLCers regardless of what he/she does, keep in contact with their married MLCer, have no boundaries, etc.
Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.
It is not harsh. It is a fact. You yourself agree with the fact. RCR is fully aware of the fact. RCR have also always said that the longer the crisis the lower the chances of reconciliation.
I don't think you have to worry. You will reconcile. I don't see you as a doormat. You have a nice, very mild MLCer that has never been abusive nor left you in financial dire straits. He is also not married to his alienator.
I see no reason for sugar coating the truth. RCR is quite brutal in several of her articles as well as in her posts. Maybe people forgot what is in several of the articles? HB is often equally brutal in her articles.
I'm with Ready2. I don't think you were "lucky". You knew your MLCer/which type he was. I would most certainly had reconciled if my MLCer was like yours. He isn't. He and many MLCers are not like yours. And that is where I think, at times, you "fail". You have no first hand experience with many sides of MLC. Sides that are far more complex than the ones who dealt with.
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I am going to take some of the comments posted here pertaining to my own personal situation and respond to them on the Old Timer's thread....we have wandered off topic as is so often the case.
Stay tuned:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10761.0
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Lucky with your MLCer, RCR? Hmmm well I suppose you were in some ways. And we should acknowledge there is luck in this. Especially in the type of MLCer we get.
You got a nice one relatively speaking.
He didn't think you were the root of all evil.
He was willing to speak to you.
He wasn't violent and nasty.
He didn't bankrupt you.
He didn't vanish into thin air so to speak.
You knew weeks before he left that he was leaving.
That's lots to at least be thankful for and to feel lucky about if that's the way you mean by lucky.
So naturally your experience informed your writings.
And yet, I'd think you would also agree that very very few of the posters here have that situation or anything close to it.
So for some your writings don't feel like as direct a fit or as applicable. You state the same principals can be applied when the chance arises but what if the chance doesn't arise? I have two friends here who have not seen, spoken to, nor heard from their MLCer in over 5 years since the day they were bd. Neither even knows the address or telephone of either.
Another example, validation. When I replied to my MLCer, "I'm sorry you feel that way" he slapped me in the back of my head and said "Have you suddenly developed brain damage agreeing with the crap I said? It's condescending and rude as well as brainless."
Validate him again? Not a chance. It just made him angrier.
And I have to say, to me, I agree with my ex that validation phrases are annoying and dismissive.
But yes, from my perspective you were lucky in many ways.
And yes, I can see exactly what Anjae means when she wrote, "You have no first hand experience with many sides of MLC. Sides that are far more complex than the ones who dealt with." Although I'd have worded it differently.
All that sums up to much has changed since this site began and evidence has accumulated. Is it time for you to consider updating or changing or a tighter focus or something else? Up to you to invest the time or not?
Lp
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You got a nice one relatively speaking.
He didn't think you were the root of all evil.
He was willing to speak to you.
He wasn't violent and nasty.
He didn't bankrupt you.
He didn't vanish into thin air so to speak.
You knew weeks before he left that he was leaving.
That's lots to at least be thankful for and to feel lucky about if that's the way you mean by lucky.
I agree that is a lot to feel/be thankful and lucky for.
And yet, I'd think you would also agree that very very few of the posters here have that situation or anything close to it.
And I would second you.
"I'm sorry you feel that way" sound silly in Portuguese No one says that. If I were to say it to Mr J, or something similar, he would laugh and think I had gone mad or monster big time. The first, I think.
Some concepts/words/terms from HS do not apply well in another language and/or a country other than the US.
And I have to say, to me, I agree with my ex that validation phrases are annoying and dismissive.
Yes, they can be. It will also depend of the person/MLCer.
I could had worded it differently, but I am a bit tired and writing in a second language. And my dyslexia is showing. I wrote "who dealt with" instead of "you dealt with". I think the meaning come across and that is what matter.
All that sums up to much has changed since this site began and evidence has accumulated.
Indeed it has. I have accumulated many years of real life experience as well. I think we all, or many of us, have.
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After all the discussion, what does it mean and how do you 'pave the way' ?
How does one forgive a spouse for an affair, creating an unharmonious environment in the family home, moving out, changing your name, carrying on with OM after repeated denials it wasn't happening.....initiating divorce....
What if I don't want to pave the way for a return, but just want peaceful exchanges for the sake of the kids.
....but my heart aches for the life we once had, the woman she once was......it feels repulsive to be physical with her again, if she ever came knocking on the door, attempting to pass it all off as a mistake.
There are days it feels like my heart and soul have been ripped out and stamped upon; there are other days I feel just ok.
How long does it take to feel more than ok.....
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There are contradictions in the phrase "pave the way". We are told here that we should detach, and live our lives the way that they are not coming back. Also the advice is that we cannot control their process. However pave the way means that we indeed can control the process.
I personally refuse to bend, refuse to lose my integrity for the sake of restoration of marriage, refuse to not be myself. It is not my job to make it comfortable for him. I should be able to speak my mind, if he does not like it so be it. I do not need him. I work two jobs, take care of two kids, am tired but I can do whatever I want. I will not accept anything else. So if he wants to come back he needs to pave his own way and he will need an excavator for that.
My MLC spouse says that he is ready to apologize and make as many amends as necessary for me to forgive him and let him come back home. So far I see a lot of talk and not so much actions. He is respectful, no monster, we are able to be cordial. but still does not work, does not live up to his parental responsibilities. For me that is a deal breaker and I told him that.
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After all the discussion, what does it mean and how do you 'pave the way' ?
I may not the best person to answer, but I will try. By being nice and civil towards our MLCer. By focussing in ourselves and our kids if we have them. By carry on with our life. There is no reconnection/reconciliation without a strong LBS. Therefore, the way I see it, we first need to focus on ourselves.
How does one forgive a spouse for an affair, creating an unharmonious environment in the family home, moving out, changing your name, carrying on with OM after repeated denials it wasn't happening.....initiating divorce....
I don't know. Each of us will get there, if we will, on our own way and time. Maybe by letting go, maybe by healing ourselves. Maybe another away. Regardless of how, forgiveness may not happen all at once. It may come in waves.
How long does it take to feel more than ok.....
I don't know. I'm sorry if I am answering with I don't know a lot, but I really do not know. All I can say is that it will be different for each of us. Sadly, there is no magical solution to go back to feel OK.
There are contradictions in the phrase "pave the way". We are told here that we should detach, and live our lives the way that they are not coming back. Also the advice is that we cannot control their process. However pave the way means that we indeed can control the process.
Indeed there are contradictions. Maybe RCR can elabore on those.
I personally refuse to bend, refuse to lose my integrity for the sake of restoration of marriage, refuse to not be myself. It is not my job to make it comfortable for him. I should be able to speak my mind, if he does not like it so be it. I do not need him. I work two jobs, take care of two kids, am tired but I can do whatever I want. I will not accept anything else.
So if he wants to come back he needs to pave his own way and he will need an excavator for that.
What an interesting concept/idea, that the MLCer needs to pave their way back. I cannot say I disagree. However, there is always a but, right, ;) MLCers tend to return broken. I am not sure if they are able to pave the way for anything/towards the LBS. From reading reconnection stories and from real life stories I know, it seems more they tend to come back, or want back, out of the blue.
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To me, Paving the Way means absolutely nothing.
Because my XH is "remarried" (still makes me ill to use the word "married", because clearly he doesn't understand the meaning.) So there is nothing to Pave the Way toward.
It used to mean leaving him alone, but also being cordial when warranted.
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Mego, I have to agree with you.
Why would you continue paving the way if they marry someone else? That makes no sense to me.
It's like saying maybe you can do something to destroy their marriage and get them to come back to you.
Who would want them back that way?
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maybe you can do something to destroy their marriage
Except I don't have to, Paving the Way or not.
I know that it will self-destruct on its own. Just a matter of time.
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Even standing implies an outcome. One is standing for something or someone. HS has many contradictory terms and ideas. Yet, once again, standing is at odds with letting it go and no expectations. If one is standing one has an expectation.
I beg to differ.
Because many of us are Standing because we promised God "for better or for worse, til death do us part."
Honoring what we promised God doesn't guarantee an entrance to Heaven. So I "expect" nothing in return.
Only hope.
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For me paving the way was a goal. It gave me something in the distance to aim for. For me it meant being a better person, a lighthouse, someone to follow. It didn't necessarily mean it would get me my H back, but it implied that I would be becoming a better person whatever were to happen with my H.
This is the kind of person I am anyway, so it fit in well with my personality. I do feel that I lost some of the grace I was born with during my marriage, and I was happy to try to regain it.
I am a stander - for now. I am a stander until I don't want to be one any more. I do feel that more recently on HS behaving like a stander gets retaliation from some members. I, too, am uncomfortable relating all my feelings now a days. As a stander, I'm going to do what I feel would be the behaviour that would attract me.
I can't forgive yet. I hope to do so some day just for myself. I do think that if my H were to apologize or show remorse, it would be much easier for me to forgive him. Without this, I'm not sure I'll be able to completely forgive him. If my H doesn't come back, I would want to forgive him just so that I reach that place where thinking of him and what he did to us won't bring up all the anger again. So that would be completely for me, for my own peace. I'm much less angry now than I was a couple of years ago, so I'm thinking I might reach that place with time any way.
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I am a stander until I don't want to be one any more. I do feel that more recently on HS behaving like a stander gets retaliation from some members. I, too, am uncomfortable relating all my feelings now a days.
Out of interest Milly, what kinds of posts do you see that seem like retaliation against standers? No need to name names or do specifics, just a general idea. Bc I have seen others say something similar and I am not sure I always get it. But I'd like to.
We all have our biases. If my situation had been different, I might have tried harder to stand or been more unsure about not standing at least. And bc limiting contact saved my sanity and bc I know what it is like to be threatened and afraid, that probably makes me see some things as priorities for an LBS in crisis. But truthfully, I am sad that I could not stand or find hope for more than letting go of my h and I would never want to judge others who manage to be able to do what I could not.
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Milly:
I am a stander - for now. I am a stander until I don't want to be one any more. I do feel that more recently on HS behaving like a stander gets retaliation from some members. I, too, am uncomfortable relating all my feelings now a days. As a stander, I'm going to do what I feel would be the behaviour that would attract me.
I agree Milly.
Being a stander is different and some people have difficulty with our choice.
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I do feel that more recently on HS behaving like a stander gets retaliation from some members. I, too, am uncomfortable relating all my feelings now a days. As a stander, I'm going to do what I feel would be the behaviour that would attract me.
Milly!! Me, too
Well, I agree on your third statement. As for the other two...I'm not uncomfortable, probably because I really don't care what anyone thinks re: Standing. (Maybe that's why I seem to be so polarizing here?)
My XH IS REMARRIED. But I have to believe that faux "marriage" will crash and burn in due time.
And that when all is said and done, he would have enormous respect for someone who would honor their vows, and family, so seriously.
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But I have to believe that faux "marriage" will crash and burn in due time.
That belief "may" not allow you to get on with your life. It can keep you stuck thinking that one day he will return home.
I truly believe in the mantra "live as though he is never coming back."
We don't know the outcome. We truly cannot predict that.
Standing is possible even when the odds of their return may be low.
Non standers also reconcile so don't equate standing with something that will cause him to return.
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I see no posts retaliating against standers. Just posts saying many, if not most, will never reconcile and that many that are now standers, or were at first, stop being.
Standing for years on end or for life is not realistic for many people.
Non-standers do reconcile. Therefore, is there a point in standing if one sees standing as aimed at reconciliation? Standing is not required for reconciliation.
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We don't know the outcome. We truly cannot predict that.
True, but per my personal guru RCR: "The relationship is superficial and thus, doomed for failure."
And so....I believe that.
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I see no posts retaliating against standers. Just posts saying many, if not most, will never reconcile and that many that are now standers, or were at first, stop being.
Standing for years on end or for life is not realistic for many people.
Non-standers do reconcile. Therefore, is there a point in standing if one sees standing as aimed at reconciliation? Standing is not required for reconciliation.
Anjae, I agree with you. There have been assertions like that for years now that arise at fairly regular cycles.
While you and I tend to be literal-we look for the literal meaning of attack which is someone doing something in the realm of stating another poster is a fool, or inset negative of choice. So you and I look around and find nothing of the sort happened and wonder just what the person is talking about.
We then do what Treasur did and ask for examples. None are forthcoming usually. And none are direct literal attacks if an example is given, that I can recall.
But what if it's a perception issue?
(What if instead of using the term attacked, they say they are uncomfortable because too many people are not Stander's so they perceive being in the minority as opposed to the majority where there is strength in numbers? What if they feel vulnerable in the minority, if in fact standing is the minority position on HS?)
So a question is why would someone feel a generalized even factual statement is an attack? Are they personalizing a non personalized statement? If so, what do they get out of doing so?
Even if the writer of the statement is not directing the statement to that person, some do seem to feel it is a personal attack?
If we take that as accurate, what can writers do to mitigate that? What if anything should they do?
What should writers do? Self censor? Make some topics off limits? Leave and go elsewhere? Not discuss certain things just figuring the readers will notice on their own?
Is the writer even responsible for mitigating that risk?
What if anything could be done to make the reader feel less like she was being attacked?
Is it the responsibility of the writer how another reacts to a generalized statement?
Does the reader have any responsibility for how she perceived the written words and how she feels as a result?
Does it make a difference that it may be a perception rather than a literal verbal attack?
What if the converse is true as well, that non-standers feel attacked when Stander's respond with things like God hates divorce, you'll never be allowed to remarry in the church or take communion. Does that constitute an attack? Or is that just a generalized statement of fact and different than an attack?
Anjae we both have been around long enough to have seen these assertions before. I know where you stand on the answers to the above questions. We both have been swiped at and accused of being too blunt or saying things in a not soft enough manner over various times. Is it really worth it to post and get these sorts of responses from a few? For me I'm well past the point of wanting to be involved in these sorts of things. It's just not worth it anymore when no amount of rationalization will reach someone who is arguing personal feelings and perceptions.
Lp
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I think we need to be honest with ourselves. There are those whose religious views consider it virtuous to stand after a divorce even if there is a remarriage.
There are those who actually consider it immoral to be pining for their remarried spouse or acting as if the new marriage is less real than their previous one, considering it coveting someone else's spouse.
The fact is, we are never going to all agree on this. Everyone thinks their religious views are right and others are wrong.
But considering this forum does not all share the same views, stating anything as a moral absolute is going to come across as arrogant, offensive or even delusional to someone who does not agree. Blowback is to be expected.
So it's better to just state it as "this is what I believe". I think any reasonable person can respect differences in values when presented as such.
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I cannot speak for anyone else, but what Milly wrote (if that is what we are talking about) resonated with me. I have felt that the tone of this board has become more firm, too firm, and that has not always been useful, to me at least.
But I also recognize that it is a logical evolution. This place is RCR's experiment, for lack of a better word. And as the years go by, for whatever reason, the hopes the we all had - at least I know I did - when we came here, of a reconciled marriage, have not panned out.
Lots of reasons for that, not the least of which is that RCR was the distancer in her marriage, whereas it think most of the rest of us were not. And then there is the particular soup of variables that make up each of our individual stories.
But what I also see is that a long term LBS, who has healed from whatever abuse they have endured and is in no way standing, is not a great choice to give advice to a shell-shocked newbie.
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Yes, NYM
You absolutely said "to prove a point". Just re-read your own statement to clarify.
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New Thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11055 (https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11055)