Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: strongFaith34 on September 29, 2019, 04:52:37 PM
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I wonder how many MLCers are actually covert narcissist ? I was reading psychology threads on another forum and people were discussing how they never realized their partners were covert narcissist until the discard (i.e. bomb drop).
The partner begins the relationship with love bombing the person of interest and they imitate the interests of the person they are interested in. I wonder if many of us on this forum had relationships that began this way? I see the MLCer love bombs their new partner, adapting to whatever her interests are.
They suppress their negative emotions because they don't know how to deal with them, when a conflict arises in the relationship they shut down because an MLCer cannot accept their is something wrong with them. My MLCer was always this way from the beginning. If everything was going good, it was great but the moment I wanted to discuss somethign that was bothering me, MLCer could not handle the discussion.
Most covert narcissist were raised in a way where their parents did not give them affection and love unless they did something the parents approved of like achieving some award, or getting good grades. Many children raised in this type of environment were treated as objects only given love and recognition for outward acomplishments. These children grow up seeking love, attention, approval constantly. When the LBS is no longer of value to them, they discard what they consider "objects" once we serve them no purpose, and they have found a new source of supply. (narcissist discard)
I am now under the impression that my MLCer who devalued and discarded me at bomb drop was truly a covert narcissist all along. When I look back, I saw hints of narcissism which I thought was just him being a perfectionist or not being able to handle arguments/critcisim, always seeking approval from others. At some point his mask fell off, I remember saying to him after bomb drop, this is not who you are, why are you acting like this? His response, "this is the real me".
I'm sure this doesn't apply to all MLCers but I wonder how many MLCers were actually covert narcissist which explains the small percentage of MLCers who actually come out of MLC. Also, the false returns overlaps with narcississtic behavior where they want to control you and keep you on the side as a source of supply or give you just enough attention to keep hanging on waiting for them to return.
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From another blog:
The horrible, never-ending and disastrous eventuality for narcissists is that all relationships with others will end up being discarded, discredited and delisted by them.
The real reason for this is because the narcissist has completely discarded themselves.
The narcissist has attempted to kill off their own True Self; they have disowned and divorced themselves from it and put a fictitious character in its place (the False Self).
When the deeply damaged, wounded and abandoned True Self emerges, the narcissist lines someone else up, projects their pain onto them and tries to destroy them, which unconsciously is all about trying to destroy their shameful True Self – the inner vulnerable parts that they have no desire to meet, heal and resurrect in order to become whole.
The narcissist does not relate to him or herself with empathy, love, kindness, vulnerability or self-honesty or self-soothing. Instead, the narcissists self-relationship is delusional; it operates in egoic and pathologically disordered ways, designed to prop up the False Self and grant this fragile insecure identity the feed of significance.
The narcissist has no resources to relate to you as a valued human with a soul, because people cannot grant what and who they are not Being to themselves.
When we realise this deeper truth, we can stop trying to hold narcissists responsible for caring about us and valuing us. They have NO ability to.
Which then leads us to our true liberation …
How can we take our power back by healing what we need to?
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Also read up on Borderline Personality disorder. Ignore the "If you do these things, you have BPD" sections, there are shades of BPD. I very much believe my XH is a shade of BPD. In his case, his parents(mother, actually) didn't expect outside accomplishments, they expected a "mini-mi", who only thought what they thought, and was never allowed a differing opinion. Also, his mother projects her feelings onto others. If you grow up with that, how do you know your own feelings?
I do believe a good portion of MLCERS have a chemical component or an emotional component, or both, that led to the MLC. My XH had a whole slew of acronyms assigned to him, along with dyslexia and dysgraphia.
So if your MLCER was a covert narc, how would that change how you are dealing with the situation? Or would it?
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Personally it reframes my view of the person I married and am now divorced from. It removed the expectation that I will ever receive a sincere apology for what he did or any real empathy for ditching his family and kids because this is something ingrained from childhood, few if any narcissist will ever self reflect and take accountability for what they did wrong.
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I came to this same conclusion about my h as well. There was a hollowness about him, always, just something I could not put my finger on. I cannot say, as so many here do, that my spouse became the opposite of what he used to be, when the crisis hit. There were always hints of a self-absorption in him, that I had grown skilled at spackling.
I do believe that a great many MLCers are covert narcissists to some degree, and not just temporarily.
I feel that this explains a lot of the behaviors that frustrate the LBS's.
So many here believe that the crisis is still going on, for years and years, and I'm just not buying it anymore.
I am convinced that their crises can - and do - end, without them making peace with the LBS, or wanting to reconcile, or even reconnect.
Particularly in this day & age, in a society that glorifies narcissism and rewards it. It is on the rise.
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Very interesting topic.
I can't speak for everybody, but I do agree. I think my XW is a covert narcissist. Right after BD somebody mentioned MLC to me and I started reading. Every box was checked. I had her up on a pedestal and couldn't see her flaws. However after yet another brutal discard my eyes were opened. I started to see our relationship for what is was. At the same time I read a lot about covert narcissism. And it fitted like a glove.
There was huge Love bombing right from the start. She liked everything about me. Told me she loved me since the first week. We moved in from the very first day. And through the years she always told me how I was a "gods gift". However when I look back at it. It was mostly words throughout the years. She basicly always put me down. Gave me the silent treatment a lot. And always had me wondering what I did wrong this time. I was even scared buying the groceries, knowing that if I picked the wrong thing she would get mad. All her friends always told her how lucky she was, when at the same time she was always complaining about me. But I couldn't see it, I always thought she loved me, and whenever she would be mad (a lot) it was my fault.
There are other things that point to NPD. She has had the very bad childhood. She told me she can never be alone. And since the age of 14 she hasn't. From one relationship into another (a lot). She is always the victim. In 16 years I have never seen her take responsibility for any relationship problems, with me, coworkers, friends and family. It's always their fault and if things don't go her way she cuts them off or uses the silent treatment. I now remember many conversations, where I was confused, her telling me I did this or said that. And me not remembering those things and telling her so. Which basicly ended up in her telling me I always change the things I say and how it is hard to live with something like that.
I don't even want to talk about the discard. But the projection, gaslighting, blame-shifting and a lot of other things are so obvious now. I do think she has (had) a crisis, but it will be on top of a personality disorder (NPD/BPD).
It does make me wonder sometimes, if we arent't fooling ourselves with MLC. Maybe it is just NPD and the touch-and-goes are just the hoovering of a NPD. Maybe we are the ones closing our eyes and holding on to false hope. Maybe we have rewritten history ourselves to and MLC is just a thing we keep telling ourselves, since that way we don't have to admit/face the fact that we might have been in a abusive relationship all along.
I don't have the answers and I don't want to offend anybody. But it does make me wonder sometimes. But I don't think it really matters also. The aftermath is about the same. We need healing and growing for ourselves. Whatever the cause of the discard was.
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I tend to agree, but I'm still not convinced on the aspect of covert narcissism/Bipolar/Just plain old clinical depression for me ex, but a lot does stand in favour of covert narcissism and I suppose depression can co-exist with narcissism.
I know that I met my ex at a vulnerable time in my life and he did completely and utterly love bomb me and he was with someone else at the time. We did, however, not get together until about 6 months after he split from his then girlfriend.
I had moved a lot and I was trying to find where I belonged, so to speak. I was also in my early 20's. I had been to University and moved to New York and then onto London and then back to where I live now. I didn't know anyone, but I was beginning to forge friendships in a city heavily involved in the music scene and I was beginning to find my feet. I had found somewhere to rent and shared with a few people. Ex was part of this circle I was now hanging out with and now I look back, I think he targeted me because I was vulnerable. It was back in the day of dial up internet and I woke up after a night out to find a message on AOL from him telling me he really liked me. We had had some superficial talk, but he was best friends with a house mate and what I didn't realise was that this house mate really liked me too. Ex was encouraging this friend at the same time as pursuing me. It was odd, but I only found this out later.
Everything moved pretty quickly after this. Before I knew it, we had a flat together and then had bought a flat together.
I look back now and realise that this was very odd, but I hadn't had much experience before this, if I'm honest. I had dated people, but nothing long term and I was looking for someone with commitment.
And he suffered from depression really badly. There were days he couldn't get out of bed. He was doing his degree and I was working full time and I would drive home on my lunch break and make sure he was up and get him to his class and drive back to work.
I know I enabled a lot of his behaviour and he didn't want an equal partner, he wanted a mother. The mother he didn't have (a lot of Foo issues) and filled that gap. I got him through Uni, through his masters, helped him pass his driving test and to a place where he was financially stable. I was now in a position where I needed his support and for him to pull his weight and then BOOM, off he went to meet someone else that would fill the void that I was no longer fulfilling.
He was never happy. He looked at other people and thought they always had it better. Sometimes he would occasionally say something like 'We actually have it pretty good, don't we?' and I'd say 'We've always had it pretty good. We're very privileged'. He would say things to me sometimes, like 'You need to meet someone better than me'. I always thought it was the depression talking.
Then, we had these crazy episodes, which were formulaic in pattern, every 4 years and in winter, he'd lose the plot. He'd say he needed to be on his own, he'd go out partying, spending crazy amounts of money, I'm guessing drink and probably drugs were involved. He'd hang out with a new group of friend who 'got him' and then the crash would come and he'd be full of remorse. Wonder what the hell he had done. Not be able to live with himself.
And, I was a bloody doormat. If the formula is right, he is due another 'crisis' this winter. I'd be interested to see how this develops. I'm not sure I'll find out though, but he's married to someone else and is no longer my problem.
But, I read a lot on covert narcissism and see my ex. His whole family think he's in midlife crisis and I believed this for a long time. They think that one day he's just going to wake up and go 'What the f*** did I do?'. I protected his family from a lot of his crazy, so I understand why they see it that way and maybe he will wake up and think this, but who cares. Too much damage has been done to me and my kids.
I am addressing my own issues through counselling and working through my own foo issues to think about his and why I enabled this man for so long.
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I too don't want to offend anyone and accept that people may see things differently. With time though I am becoming much more cautious of labels. Including MLC actually. And my xh WAS actually diagnosed by a psychiatrist with both severe depression and anxiety a bit after BD. But was it cause or effect? No idea. I was diagnosed with PTSD so that's a label. It did help me to understand things happening in me that I couldn't understand and get the right treatment for it, that's true. Was it useful to anyone else? Not sure. Did my xh's diagnosis help him understand his own behaviour and find a path back to health? Doesn't look like it from the little i know, but truthfully no idea.
Why mighg we be cautious? Bc humans are complicated, bc we are not objective as LBS and bc we all have traits that operate on a scale...and move around in reaction to context and events.
I do think it is normal to try to find a why label as part of trying to make sense of something big that we don't understand. But often the Why label doesn't change much about the what in front of us. We are dealing with patterns of behaviour not thoughts really...and no one can really reliably guess at what is in someone else's head. So perhaps it is more useful to respond to the patterns of what people are doing as opposed to the underlying 'cause' of why they are doing it? Maybe there is even a risk that we skew our own perception of what we see if we label too rigidly? Or stops us seeing people as people first?
I suspect the deeper need to have a label is about our own past perceptions and our future hopes or assumptions perhaps? Interesting video on this very issue here fwiw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xUXMAVgCToM
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Narcissist or narcissistic traits. Does it even matter? The reality is that those traits are the thought processes and coping mechanisms and survival defenses of a small child against severe abuse. Wether it is a true Personality Disorder, or learned behavior from being raised by a person with a personality disorder, or just a survival mechanism from past abuse.....it’s still a hurt person hurting people.
I find I don’t really care, if we are letting go, and not trying to affect a certain outcome, then it matters very little. If this is God’s way of healing it, then they have free will and so do you....they either come back healing or they don’t return....and you still have a choice.
Just my personal opinion.
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strong, I went down that path too and I don't know..
I think personally from what it sounds like and from my own experiences, we've got avoidant attached spouses. Typically that happens when a spouse grows up in an house where the parents aren't available and they often have to care for siblings and or the parent, in cases of alcoholics and drug addiction.
Any emotional confrontation upsets them because they've never been through them, in what someone would consider a "normal" way and don't know how to react to them without being defensive, which one could argue is actually being offensive. I used to have this saying with my wife that when she was mad at me, i was in trouble and when I was mad at her, I was still in trouble.
They lie frequently or through omission, to hold all the cards and somehow they manage to have all "the dirt" on you. Simply putting forks in the wrong slot in the drawer could be an argument that would end in divorce. Or at least the threat of it.. to keep you in check.
The biggest thing though is that they never had a stable parent to model on and they don't understand their feelings and can't label them we way most people do and by extension, they can't process them as normal people. They just turn it on you instead. Like with the forks, you'd say "I want to help you so I put the dishes away". they would say "if you cared, then you'd know where I wanted the forks to go".
Nobody ever gave to them and they have a lot of ways of keeping the scales tipped in their favor. Read into it.. on the surface it looks covert narcissism. it's really tough to tell..
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They just turn it on you instead. Like with the forks, you'd say "I want to help you so I put the dishes away". they would say "if you cared, then you'd know where I wanted the forks to go".
Hey gman, you were married with my W??? Because I have lived through that fork scene. LoL
It's amazing how universal some of these small things are.
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oh yeah it happened to me.. over the years, many people here have told me it's happened to them too.. crazy isn't it?
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Why mighg we be cautious? Bc humans are complicated, bc we are not objective as LBS and bc we all have traits that operate on a scale...and move around in reaction to context and events.
I agree.
Maybe there is even a risk that we skew our own perception of what we see if we label too rigidly? Or stops us seeing people as people first?
Yes, there is a big risk of skewing our perception and of stop us seeing people as people.
I suspect the deeper need to have a label is about our own past perceptions and our future hopes or assumptions perhaps?
Most likely.
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strongFaith, Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 05:12:54 PM
From another blog..
Copied, pasted, & printed out.Thank you SF.
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Well I was lead to this site when I was researching Narcs actually.
I read a lot of websites, watched a lot of videos, and even bought and read some books.
He ticked nearly all the boxes...just like MLC.
I don't know what his label is. Depressive, Bipolar, Narc...or just an extra spicey MLCer....
It hardly matters now.
Whatever they are you have to deal with them basically the same. If they eventually get better they were in a MLC...if they don't... well it was something more permanent.
But this website is helpful not for dealing with them, but for dealing with you. No matter what is wrong with your spouse...or ex spouse...it is you who is left to pick up the pieces, and these people can help you do it. :)
That being said it never hurts to read up on all the potential disorders. Not so much for getting back with them, but more in managing your interactions and expectations.
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Morte,
I am deceased! 🤣😂☠️
or just an extra spicey MLCer...
🤣 send help, I need an inhaler.🤣
Jk
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There is a huge difference, especially if one has kids with the MLCer and or is standing to know the MLCer has something that does not go away, BPD, NPD, etc. and MLC that tends to go away, even if it may last many years.
Not much point in thinking/expecting BPD or NPD will go away. They don't.
Reading on all the PDs may cause even more confusion, including in how to deal with a MLCer. One does not deal with NPD the same way one deals with BPD. And a MLCer, unless he or she already has a pre-MLC PD has none.
At times it seems to be LBS like to complicate and add further layers that can leave the person even more confused.
The tendecy to diagnose MLCers also seems a bit worrisome to me. Even if we were a psychiatrisct we could not be diagnosing people through HS.
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Depressive, Bipolar, Narc...or just an extra spicey MLCer....
Made me chuckle too :)...that Ms Morte has an eye for a snappy phrase doesn't she? :)
More and more, with time and distance on events, I think the reality of this experience for many of us is just inherently full of paradox. Like the quote from 'Alice in Wonderland' about being able to think of six impossible things before breakfast. And we learn and adapt as we go, often without much RL help bc we have fallen down a rabbit hole while they are going about their business in the normal world. I suppose our struggle is about how we individually climb out of the rabbit hole :)...and HS is a place where the rabbit hole stuff IS normal, although I guess there is a risk in normalising over a long period behaviour that really isn't RL normal too.
With hindsight I needed a 'something' label initially, some explanation to know that I was not insane or imagining just how weird it truly was. Then perhaps a label gave me hope that whatever it was could be fixed. Then a label helped me stumblingly navigate and work round and off the weird rollercoaster. Then maybe a label helped me to not hate my xh and not blame myself for things I didn't understand and couldn't control. Now, some years out, perhaps I need a label less? Bc I really do trust my own judgment now that something very weird happened to my then h, I have no role in fixing it and no longer have to work my way round it in my present life I suppose. It isn't my strange journey to explain is it? Let's face it I have had my own strange journey to explain to myself lol.
Increasingly I think instead of MLC or any of the other labels or explanations, I am calling it WIW....Whatever It Was that happened to my former h. :)
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Yes getting caught up in labels may not be useful to some, but honestly if the signs point to covert narcissism, then hanging onto this MLC hope that one day the MLCer will recover and be an empathic loving person again after cheating and devaluing the LBS seems counterproductive to healing.
Especially when dealing with covert narcissist who see people as objects, easily disposable and replaceable. A covert narc cannot be alone so if things don’t work out with their affair partner, they do enjoy having the LBS as backup option. Personally, I value myself more than being the backup option to someone who cheated on me, with no remorse and gaslighted me into thinking it was my fault. I think part of an LBS growth and healing is to maybe reconcile the fact that the MLC personality might reveal core personality defects that are a part of the MLCer.
I do think some MLCers only feel slight remorse when the LBS moves on, or maybe it is just the loss of supply they thought would always be waiting for them.
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I get that, strongfaith.
That's why I think that each LBS goes through their own process over time of getting in touch with what they see as the patterns in their relationship pre-BD and their own assessment of WIW. Different people reach different conclusions. All of us probably have to work through some sense of shock, confusion and denial before we get to our own conclusions. And a lot of the behaviour we see DOES fit the descriptions of quite a lot of different labels.
Part of healing I think is how each person finds their own way towards their own sense of what was true and what is true now. Maybe that involves separating the person from the label for some. For others it may be a growing sense of ah-ha moments when we see some pattern that we didn't see before that predates BD. And some realisations maybe too about why we saw it the way we did then as opposed to how we do now. And that does seem to involve a bit of a wrestling match between excuse vs explanation vs expectation for most of us.
Not a simple process though....and we don't all end up in the same place. I think that what matters most though is reaching a point, label or not, that feels pretty close to the hard truths for us as a foundation to rebuild whatever it is we choose on. A bit of solid ground in the quicksand.
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Yes getting caught up in labels may not be useful to some, but honestly if the signs point to covert narcissism, then hanging onto this MLC hope that one day the MLCer will recover and be an empathic loving person again after cheating and devaluing the LBS seems counterproductive to healing.
Especially when dealing with covert narcissist who see people as objects, easily disposable and replaceable. A covert narc cannot be alone so if things don’t work out with their affair partner, they do enjoy having the LBS as backup option. Personally, I value myself more than being the backup option to someone who cheated on me, with no remorse and gaslighted me into thinking it was my fault. I think part of an LBS growth and healing is to maybe reconcile the fact that the MLC personality might reveal core personality defects that are a part of the MLCer.
I do think some MLCers only feel slight remorse when the LBS moves on, or maybe it is just the loss of supply they thought would always be waiting for them.
Not going to lie...
I have had a lot of these exact same thoughts.
2 years ago I was looking for some sort of answer for what was wrong with him. I was convinced he was a covert Narc, but then came across this website. And look.. maybe he is a MLCER! Maybe if I am strong enough, and wait long enough..he will magically go back to the person he was before and we would be in love again! ::)
It took a lot of thinking time, distance, smashing of the rose coloured glasses, and a real assessment of what I thought I knew.
For some people here I do believe their partners are in a crisis and will come out... For some I think that it is a bit more complicated than that. Maybe sometimes we are just a little afraid to admit that to ourselves? I know I was.
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Yes, I was very afraid to admit to myself the reality of my situation with my ex and it took me some time to get there. I also think that some people's partners are in crisis and will come out of it. I think my ex partner has come out of his current crisis and has moved on. I do believe it will happen again though. There'll be another crisis along the way.
I do think in some instances you need a label. For me, if my ex was Bi-polar, it means that there's a chance my kids could develop this. I see elements of my son in the things that my ex used to say or do and I worry for him. As it turns out, the term was banded about, some 8 years ago, but as my ex stopped seeing the psychiatrist it was never confirmed. I also hear varying stories about whether it is hereditary. My counsellor tells me that it isn't hereditary. Ultimately though, I have put it to the back of my mind.
I use tactics here to help me deal with my ex as we have kids, but if we didn't he would be a complete vanisher and I wouldn't be even thinking about terms for what he is as he'd be out of my life completely. I do sometimes really wish this was the case.
I have to work on myself to understand why I was attracted to someone like my ex. I was an enabler to his behaviour and am definitely an empath. We had similar Foo issues with our family background and it manifested in us in different ways.
I just hope I pick a little more wisely for the partner in my next relationship.
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Labels labels labels... If I were to label my MLCer it would be the following;
Depressed, covert narcissist, avoidant attacher, elements of BPD and FOO issue holder oh and MLCer ex high replayer stuck inbetween limbo and reconnection..... the list is endless.
So I wonder why I am standing? My children wonder why I am standing. I have said it many times I don't think my H will ever truly acknowedge or hold himself accountable for his actions (he did indeed tick all the boxes at the top of this thread)
So reading all this again has really made me think even deeper about what healing I need to do because in "normal" life I would probably never allow this kind of person to be such a close and deep part of my life.
Thanks - really helpful.
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Labels labels labels... If I were to label my MLCer it would be the following;
Depressed, covert narcissist, avoidant attacher, elements of BPD and FOO issue holder oh and MLCer ex high replayer stuck inbetween limbo and reconnection..... the list is endless.
So I wonder why I am standing? My children wonder why I am standing. I have said it many times I don't think my H will ever truly acknowedge or hold himself accountable for his actions (he did indeed tick all the boxes at the top of this thread)
So reading all this again has really made me think even deeper about what healing I need to do because in "normal" life I would probably never allow this kind of person to be such a close and deep part of my life.
Thanks - really helpful.
Yes I understand this feeling. Labels help us feel in control - that this may be explained and maybe fixed. They bring some comfort of a sort.
The problem I feel, as song suggests, is that it takes the focus from us. Not just the focus of GAL, but the deep inner exploration which begins to explain why we are like we are - why we put up with unacceptable behaviour; why we ignored intuition; what is frightening us and why? What is our behaviour saying about us.
The other, which has been referred to is that no one fits neatly inside a label - we are all, mlc spouses too - Much more than that. And if we or they do display unhealthy tendencies which might look like some kind of pd....well the reality is that we all move in and out of unhealthy states throughout our lives and none of us likes to be defined by our unhealthy behaviours.
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well the reality is that we all move in and out of unhealthy states throughout our lives and none of us likes to be defined by our unhealthy behaviours.
And that is the dilemma - the more we label behaviours the more we discover that at almost every point of our life we may have been in one of the many behavioural states even fleetingly.
I don't think we can ever be whole and completely emotionally, mentally healthy because we are social beings and social beings are imperfect but today's society seeks the perfect and that is almost impossible to achieve - well it is for me.
The moment we are cared for as babies we start down specific paths of behaviour and expectations - it is only when we are faced with challenges such as MLC we begin to recognise, accept and work on our perceived flaws.
"Well-Being" in schools is about mental health and I for one am glad to see that UK schools are beginning to really address this. But what is often encouraged at all other times is a specific code of behaviour and not an inner search of one's own feelings and behaviours. So as long as you fit the norm on a day to day basis, then all kinds of covert narcissism/depression/anger etc are subtly ignored and passed on.....
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"Well-Being" in schools is about mental health and I for one am glad to see that UK schools are beginning to really address this. But what is often encouraged at all other times is a specific code of behaviour and not an inner search of one's own feelings and behaviours. So as long as you fit the norm on a day to day basis, then all kinds of covert narcissism/depression/anger etc are subtly ignored and passed on.....
Indeed - and I know you were a UK teacher so you might feel encouraged to learn (maybe you’ve heard) that a 2017 govt white paper accepted the recommendations from the Anna Freud Centre associated with UCL and are training school welfare therapists at universities and attaching them to specific schools. The training started this sept. At last some acknowledgement of the cost of mental health problems.
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"Well-Being" in schools is about mental health and I for one am glad to see that UK schools are beginning to really address this. But what is often encouraged at all other times is a specific code of behaviour and not an inner search of one's own feelings and behaviours. So as long as you fit the norm on a day to day basis, then all kinds of covert narcissism/depression/anger etc are subtly ignored and passed on.....
Indeed - and I know you were a UK teacher so you might feel encouraged to learn (maybe you’ve heard) that a 2017 govt white paper accepted the recommendations from the Anna Freud Centre associated with UCL and are training school welfare therapists at universities and attaching them to specific schools. The training started this sept. At last some acknowledgement of the cost of mental health problems.
And this is why I am re-training as a well-being life coach, counsellor and NLP practitioner.
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Yes I understand this feeling. Labels help us feel in control - that this may be explained and maybe fixed. They bring some comfort of a sort.
The problem I feel, as song suggests, is that it takes the focus from us. Not just the focus of GAL, but the deep inner exploration which begins to explain why we are like we are - why we put up with unacceptable behaviour; why we ignored intuition; what is frightening us and why? What is our behaviour saying about us.
I am not sure that I agree with this.
Coming to the conclusion that there were aspects of my h's personality which were deep and entrenched, and that this was not a fixable, temporary crisis, brought no comfort at all. Quite the opposite.
Instead of taking the focus away from myself, it forced me to face up to the aspects of my own personality that had allowed myself to turn a blind eye to reality.
This process is some of the most difficult work of this entire experience, and the most beneficial.
It leaves the present situation with my h as sort of of beside the point.
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The partner begins the relationship with love bombing the person of interest and they imitate the interests of the person they are interested in. I wonder if many of us on this forum had relationships that began this way? I see the MLCer love bombs their new partner, adapting to whatever her interests are.
They suppress their negative emotions because they don't know how to deal with them, when a conflict arises in the relationship they shut down because an MLCer cannot accept their is something wrong with them. My MLCer was always this way from the beginning. If everything was going good, it was great but the moment I wanted to discuss somethign that was bothering me, MLCer could not handle the discussion.
What you describe here actually sounds more like a few LBSes who seem to think they can manipulate their spouses out of their MLC by engaging in such tactics. ::)
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The partner begins the relationship with love bombing the person of interest and they imitate the interests of the person they are interested in. I wonder if many of us on this forum had relationships that began this way? I see the MLCer love bombs their new partner, adapting to whatever her interests are.
They suppress their negative emotions because they don't know how to deal with them, when a conflict arises in the relationship they shut down because an MLCer cannot accept their is something wrong with them. My MLCer was always this way from the beginning. If everything was going good, it was great but the moment I wanted to discuss somethign that was bothering me, MLCer could not handle the discussion.
What you describe here actually sounds more like a few LBSes who seem to think they can manipulate their spouses out of their MLC by engaging in such tactics. ::)
NYM - I think you may have misunderstood the context here. I think Strong faith was not talking about MLC behaviour from the current MLCer but when as pre MLC partner; ie the partner/husband's/wife's behaviourbefore MLC. A past trend of behaviour. So therefore your response to suggest that this is manipulative tactics is possibly misplaced.
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I didn't miss the context. I just thought the description could be applied to other situations as well. And if you re-read what I wrote, I wasn't talking about current MLCers either, but LBSes displaying covert narcissist tendencies themselves. There just seems to be a disturbing trend in the forum the last few months of newbie members who think they can manipulate their spouses through and out of their MLCs to their own benefit.
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I didn't miss the context. I just thought the description could be applied to other situations as well. And if you re-read what I wrote, I wasn't talking about current MLCers either, but LBSes displaying covert narcissist tendencies themselves. There just seems to be a disturbing trend in the forum the last few months of newbie members who think they can manipulate their spouses through and out of their MLCs to their own benefit.
It’s possible some lbs have narcissistic tendencies because:
A) we all have some narcissism. We are born with it. It turns into more outward focused thinking as we successfully grow up.
B) living with those who have more than average narcissism can make a spouse demonstrate some as can life stressors.
I think you are confusing narcissism with a hyper activated attachment system. Many of us lbs have an anxious attachment style. We may always have tended toward this or we are thrown into it by the loss of our main attachment figure. The obsessive thinking, inability to believe our circumstances and our overwhelming need to have this person back is all typical of this style.
In our dilemma we try anything to restore the relationship and this our sense of security. We are not healthy and therefore some of our behaviours turn unhealthy - perhaps unhealthy for ourselves and others. These strategies may be manipulative and if strong enough may seem narcissistic. It’s all very normal, if not optimal. In any case, it doesn’t mean we are narcissists. We are just desperately distressed and it’s hard to feel empathy for the other person when we are in distress so our actions can seem selfish even. I doubt this is the way most of us behave when circumstances feel safe.
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I don't see that trend on the forum, NYM.
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I don't see that trend on the forum, NYM.
I don’t think so either - seems like a very unempathetic and rigid response to those new people in acute distress and grief.
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In our dilemma we try anything to restore the relationship and this our sense of security. We are not healthy and therefore some of our behaviours turn unhealthy - perhaps unhealthy for ourselves and others. These strategies may be manipulative and if strong enough may seem narcissistic. It’s all very normal, if not optimal. In any case, it doesn’t mean we are narcissists. We are just desperately distressed and it’s hard to feel empathy for the other person when we are in distress so our actions can seem selfish even. I doubt this is the way most of us behave when circumstances feel safe.
Amazing! This quote, which is meant to apply to LBSes, is also a pretty good description of most MLCers and, IMHO, fits most MLCers much better than the label "covert narcissist". What a great description of MLC and explanation of MLC behavior!
BTW, so there's no confusion, I believe the relationship referred to in the first sentence is not the relationship with the LBS or even with the alienator, but instead it's the relationship with the person who damaged the MLCer when they were young.
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BTW, so there's no confusion, I believe the relationship referred to in the first sentence is not the relationship with the LBS or even with the alienator, but instead it's the relationship with the person who damaged the MLCer when they were young
Well I was referring directly to the marriage, but since attachment theory (and psychoanalytic theory) says that romantic relationships and our behaviours within them are a continuance of our relationship with , primarily our mothers and later, other important attachment figures, then yes, the relationship is that which we have with our mother.
Actually I have a friend who leads a mental
Health team in the public sector who says that pretty
Much every person referred to her has problems which, at their root, are issues of attachment. This will apply to some degree to us, the lbs as well as to the mlc spouse, since it is likely that the attachment dynamic between us has gone off balance.
(She is referring to general
Life problems not relationship therapy
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But that is how fundamental
Our attachment style is)
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As my dear departed mil said wryly, back when we all thought H’s affair was a flash in the pan and she hadn’t thought to examine her family deeply : “If it’s not one thing, it’s your mother”
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The relationship issue with the mother would certainly relate to my H.
His mother had long term alzheimers and H withdrew more and more from her (he couldn't cope or bear or was afraid to see the shadow she was becoming) - leaving me to the later visits etc...
When she died his words were " Not Yet! - oh no not yet!"
Struck me as odd but little did I know then that OW was on the scene and BD was 3 weeks away. He still 7 years on cannot cope with talking about his mother - he shuts down and switches off.
This connection with his mum also resonates in that H's dad died suddenly at age 56 leaving H's mum very broke because she wasn't earning enough; she had to work overtime for the next 10 years until retirement. H had always said he would go at the same age as his dad leaving me the way his dad left his mum. The difference for us was that I was working a great job, very well paid and paying for most of the bills anyway.
7 years on - H is still here Ta Dah!
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This is such an important thread and topic and I think also helps us contextualize what we are seeing. It is no coincidence that our former spouses' behavior is being described on forums all over the internet!
For everyone on this thread, I really recommend to everyone here Shahida Arabi's books on narcissism. They helped me so much to understand the behavior patterns but also offer a genuine roadmap to healing and even post-recovery. Really smart, articulate, insightful, at times unconventional, yet also warm and compassionate. She also has free articles and materials online.
I believe that MLC is related to the narcissism epidemic and that both are biology based. I think the connections we often make to childhood is just same hereditary mental illness, spectrum disorder, or susceptibility. I think this explains why our spouses often reject their parents' behavior only to copy it to the letter as we look on incredulously, even lacking the basic self awareness that they are repeating it.
My ex had a series of unusual fevers leading up to this, along with ongoing migraines. I talked to a neurologist at one point and she said these were a huge red flag. He has changes to his physiology that cannot be explained simply by psychology. Even our "full moon alerts" are a big indicator that this is not simply childhood trauma.
(In fact speaking to childhood trauma, I also want to add that some of the most deeply compassionate people who have helped my son and me through this had traumatic childhoods, which lent them wisdom and deep understanding.)
I strongly believe both MLC and NPD are connected to damage to the frontotemporal lobe. Whether this is viral, fungal, or some other issue I can't say. I read a fascinating article about an Israeli researcher who felt that narcissism was adult-onset autism. It made sense to me as we can clearly see our former spouses quickly "regress," almost "overnight," in much the same way we read about infants suddenly regressing.
My feeling about my ex and who he "really" was varies widely. At times I think he was always like this, but then I have had some honest moments in my heart where I remembered how funny he was, how his eyes were sparkly, and I think that if there was a period where he was "faking" it — even if it was longer than I realized at the time — perhaps he was masking the symptoms in the same way I might if I slowly realized I couldn't feel things the way that I used to. He probably was always a little "on the spectrum" of narcissism (I would have just called it a little inconsiderate), but I don't always think it was as sinister as some sites on covert narcissism would lead you to to believe.
I think that there is a tipping point, where MLCers lose both empathy and self awareness, and this is when we see bomb drop. If you read about frontotemporal lobe impairment and damage in narcissism and psychopathy you can get a clearer idea of why those afflicted with all of these conditions (or this one spectrum condition, we don't know) suddenly becomes as if a pattern.