Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Shockandawe on October 19, 2019, 07:23:18 AM
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Thank you Thunder
New thread time again.
Previous thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11137.0
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It’s interesting that sometimes two things can be absolutely true at the same time and not negate each other if we stop trying to make everything black and white. Like someone can apologize and take responsibility for their actions, and still not be able to control those actions at the time. To take responsibility and understand the consequences is different than going back and rewriting history to pretend they could have prevented those actions.
Also I want to note the SS got beat up for NOT sharing how she felt, and almost immediately got beat up and told she was being manipulative when she did finally decide to tell her husband. I think a lot of us see this through the lens of our own hurt.
I for one think telling was the better choice, I don’t think anyone is responsible for protecting others from the truth. And it was brave, healing for all and really shows how far you have come for yourself. There are no conditions I can imagine where it would be wrong if one day my wife shared a truth like that. No matter where we stood it would be an important step.
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Don't conflate things/people. I wasn't one of those pushing her to tell her XH in the first place. I felt it was her choice to do so or not. And I don't have a problem with her having done so, but I do think telling someone who is married to someone else that you love them is inappropriate no matter what the circumstances.
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I agree... not our life.. not our choice.
Shocksis is very brave to come forward on a site like this and share her experience. No two Mlcer are a Like.
I for one appreciate ss for her contribution as well as respect her for her decision to wait to talk to her xh. The time will come.
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Hi Shelly,
If you look back on the end of SS's last thread, she did decide to tell him. It was time. :)
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SS, you have eased your former husbands soul by apologising to him, how I have longed for the same thing. You have grown since being here and it’s in the right direction. I would imagine it has lifted a big weight off your shoulders too. I wish you continued growth, wisdom and happiness and thank you so much for sharing your journey with us.
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Oh no I missed it. I’ll go back and read.
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Shock's Sis. Congratulations on having the conversation with your ex. IMO that was a very brave thing to do.
Congratulations, also, on posting on the forum about the conversation you had with your ex. IMO, that was an even braver thing to do.
There are a few people on this forum who will simply never get it. Perhaps they don't even want to get it, because if they did they might feel forced to have some compassion for the MLCer. It seems pretty easy for them to find fault with everything that you do. I wonder what we would find if we put their lives under a microscope and started second guessing all of their choices. I suspect we could find a lot of things in their lives to criticize if we looked closely enough.
I hope you'll forgive me for the preceding paragraph. Apparently, you're not allowed to feel even the slightest bit defensive so I'm feeling a bit defensive on your behalf. I'm afraid I haven't yet achieved the level of emotional maturity that you have. I still have a tendency to react when somebody pokes me with a stick.
IMO, you're a wonderful person. This forum is fortunate to have you here. The world is a better place because you are in it. It wasn't right that you had to experience the things you experienced in your life prior to your MLC and you don't deserve to be treated the way a few on here have been treating you. I continue to be bewildered by people's intolerance. I hope that you have been able to go back and find that perfect, innocent little girl you once were before life treated you so cruelly and that you and her are able to make a fresh new start.
Thank you for posting. Reading your words and your gracious responses to the questions asked of you and challenges directed at you has made a big difference in my life. I appreciate you for having the altruism and the courage to post here.
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Everything Brain said.
I also think to apologize is the final action you can make proving you are completely out of MLC.
Not that you needed any.
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Jack and MBIB I wanted to quote you both as it’s how I also feel!
So glad you feel better Sis and I am sure it has given your XH a level of peace he deserves. I hate to think of other recovered MLCers deciding not to do the same thing for their LBS thinking it is in their LBS’s better interest to keep it to themselves.
Your news made me smile, thanks for sharing it!
Rose 🌹
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Sis, I think what you did was very considerate. I bet it was hard to do, took a lot of courage. I hope it helps your H. I know it would help me immensely. Thank you.
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Right on Shocks, you did the right thing (never easy).
Very proud of you. Your (ex)H needed that, and it will mean so much to him even if he can't process it now.
Very, very awesome.
-SS
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Congrats Shock Sis,
That’s fantastic, both for you and your LBS - I hope this brings you both some peace and that your LBS can now understand it really was never him.
Your apology is clear and heartfelt. Acknowledging you were in MLC and could not stop it doesn’t diminish the apology - it in fact reinforces what many believe is a hallmark of MLC, that there is a compulsive quality to it and once it begins, it must be traversed all the way to the end. Much damage is done along the way and you have owned that damage with grace. There will always be haters for which “the pound of flesh” is never enough.
I hope you continue to post, I am grateful for your contributions.
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Hello everyone
I would just like to say thank you for all of your understanding and support. Your words touched me deeply and I feel blessed to be here amongst you all.
I am glad to be able to give you all a perspective on MLC that in some way gives you the understanding which you may not have had before.
I will continue to answer and again thank you all, you are all very special people.
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Don't conflate things/people. I wasn't one of those pushing her to tell her XH in the first place. I felt it was her choice to do so or not. And I don't have a problem with her having done so, but I do think telling someone who is married to someone else that you love them is inappropriate no matter what the circumstances.
If that was in response to me I am not conflating anything, I was pointing out different reactions covering either decision.
We all have our beliefs, mine are that no one is responsible for the decisions of another. So whoever tells me wife “I love you” it is my wife’s decision what she did/does with that. The world is not responsible for our choices or to protect the people involved with us, if we can not trust our friends/partners there is no there there.
And additionally in this context there was long term existing relationship that was impacted, and this was in context of that set of events. It wasn’t like SS walked up to some random stranger on the street to state what she felt in the past and present.
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Thank you for being here, hope you are ok
Massive hugs
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Shocks sis, what great news to hear that you took courage and talked to your H. I do believe that this is a major step for both your and your H's healing. I've come to think that my H's speechlessness relating to childhood events is central to his MLC. If he approached me someday to talk about these crazy last few years candidly and with regret, I would know that he was on his way to fully recover from this and that his MLC was not in vain.
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Everything Puzzled just said‼️
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Shock's Sis, owning that the things you said to your XH while in MLC were not true, that none of it was his fault, and that it was all in your (at that time) MLC head and apologizing for it was undoubtedly very hard and I'm sure it was very hard for your XH to hear it. He is going to have some heavy processing to do. There will be some relief that it wasn't about him, some anger that he was put through all that and maybe some that he is where he is now, likely a lot of confusion for him.
That took guts on your part, and will continue to take strength if he needs more answers from you as he processes. The making amends portion can be very difficult. It is very impressive to be able to step up and do that. Thank you very much for your posts, your experience, and showing us your journey.
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I so very much agree with OffRoad, SS.
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This is all so very f'd up. people saying ss is not recovered because she has not confronted her xh. then she does and she is ridiculed for not doing it right. Some people just love to find fault in everything. I believe what shock said to her xh is very important to his healing. I think everyone can move on but their will always be the questions of what one did wrong. Even though I know this is all about my h , there is still those questions. Most every mlcer that came back has said it is some compulsion that they can not stop themselves even though they know it is wrong. even though they know it is hurting the ones they love. I look at mlc as 2 different people. The good and the bad personalities. Hence jeckyl and hyde. you have to remember they are split people that need to come back into one. I see absolutely nothing wrong with telling her xh that she loves him. He needed to hear that knowing his marriage was real.That she was real in her feelings for him.
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Dear Shocks sis, Thank you for sharing. Your disclosure to your xH was very brave and very strong. May you both find peace.
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SS,
I haven't posted on this thread before but have followed along. My H has/had been in MLC about 10 years. However, I have seen him do a complete 180 again back into the man I know from the MLCer I did not recognize for so long. I think it's safe to say he is no longer in MLC, and I am seeing the circle completing. However, he has not (yet) returned to our marriage, though he is very involved with our family and our relationship gets better all the time. Time will tell, I suppose. It always does.
I am sure your H hearing the apology and explanation did him a world of good for his healing, even though he may take awhile to process it and understand it completely. From the perspective of an LBS who is still missing that piece from their MLCer (who I would think SHOULD be in the head space and heart space to offer some kind of words by this point), that is something an LBS yearns to hear, even if it doesn't mean full restoration of a relationship. It is a good, good thing.
Thanks for the time you take to share your perspective, even when you sometimes are met with hostility. It is so appreciated.
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Shock sis,
You are very brave and I know it would mean much to me if my H were to ever acknowledge his MLC. No matter how much logic there is ... it still is hard to fully allow my heart to "get it" that it was not me or our marriage...
I am so grateful to your willingness to share....
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SS
I have the greatest respect for someone who can come on a forum like this, answer our questions, bat off the challenging posts and take note from other members.
Bravo....MK
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Sis
When you met with your X, did you make it clear that your whole life blew up and the grass was certainly not greener?
I can’t even imagine that scenario. Good for you for making it happen.
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A question to Shocks's sis...
Possibly this has been asked before, but when you were entering the tunnel, and coming out of the tunnel, was your ability to function changed? Or did you go on with your daily activities as is? I've got the priviledge of live-in MLCr, and on the surface it seems there's not much going on. So I'm curious to hear what Your mind/brain functionality was alike at various stages. For example when you started sinking in or coming out it, did you try reading self-help articles desperately, or did you call for therapy unwind your head, or did you just "follow along your instincts"?
I can only speak of the LBS experience after BD, and it is one hell of a ride. Even after 8 months (where I think I am finally beginning to heal) I can say this whole thing is still affecting negatively into my ability to function normally (or at least so I feel). A good example is something as simple as going on a regular walk - I can easily spend two thirds of the walk an autopilot while my brain simply tries to "work out" what the hell happened with my life... And then I've got this new "hobby" - which is basically gaining knowledge/self-improvement through psychology/mindfulness/self-help books and articles (and then putting the learned bits into action). Nothing bad with this, but it can get quite addicting/attractive especially if I should focus on something "more boring" (say working through tax papers)... I'm sure all of it will eventually pass and calm. It just takes time to get "control of my head" back.
Alvin
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Hi SS, I have mentioned before that my h has acted much like you did in the first 11 months with his heart completely turned from me.
In this last month he has admitted how broken he is and started seeing a psychiatrist, apologized for being such a monster(while crying), started being very friendly to me and confiding some, is trying to reach out a bit more with the kids etc.
A month ago he would not look me in the eyes and now he will some. I am being friendly, polite, letting him pursue me, listening and keeping my contact short.
He still plans to d me, but is open to pushing it back some because that helps me out. Before he flat out hated me. He looks at it as we can be friends and coparent.
I am proceeding with caution, do you believe friendship is a good place to start(he is still in replay, unsure about ow). I do not want him to feel as if he has the best of both worlds. He does not live at home. I’m thinking this could be considered a partial turn back towards me and the kids.
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Shocks sis,
I imagine that telling your husband how you felt was a very hard thing to do but I feel it was necessary for both of you. You both needed that closure. I am currently going through this in my own mind from my own MLC. I know there are things that I need to say to him but can’t since he is very much in his own MLC now. Good for you to take that step. I hope it helps in your recovery.
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It must have been incredibly confronting to have had that conversation with your xH shocks sis. I do hope you felt it was the right time to have it and that you feel some peace from taking that huge step.
I think your right in saying perhaps some people want blood and you really can’t please everyone.
In my opinion weather someone is in MLC or not everyone has some defensiveness- it’s human nature. We all use defence mechanisms when in situations where we feel confronted by difficult emotions- it’s natural. In my opinion that does not necessarily mean you are still in MLC. If that was the case then the majority of the world would be in MLC. I’m sure as you say there was a lot more to that conversation. From what you have shared I think you took full responsibility for the hurt you caused but at the same time attempted to express what you felt happened to you and the compulsion you felt. You have always maintained (as others in MLC have) that you felt compelled to do the things you did and that you did not choose to have a MLC. I feel that’s an explanation not an excuse and is your truth. What ever anyone else says it remains your truth and you can only stand by that. With all the negative comments you’ve had it would have been easy for you to change your truth to fit what others want you hear or what they expect- I respect the fact that you didn’t and you stand by what was your unique experience.
It would bring me incredible peace to my soul if I ever heard what you told your xH. Even if I was in another relationship and happy in my life I would want to know if my xH still loved me and that he has always loved me. This is because the fact that he loved me sooo much before MLC to completely hating me after BD is the hardest thing for me to understand. The rejection has wounded my soul and caused me the most amount of pain. I would not want to die not knowing that he still loved me. Personally if I was in another committed relationship my xH telling me this would not change a thing. It may even help me be better in trusting myself and my own instincts. If I was committed to that relationship then it would not be in danger by this information. If it was not a happy relationship then I truly believe it would not stand the test of time weather I heard this from my xH or not. I do not believe you are being manipulative by sharing what you feel as from what you have said your intentions are not to cause problems in his marriage- I believe that’s why you considered sharing it so carefully.
I appreciate your continued contribution and insights
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A month ago he would not look me in the eyes and now he will some. I am being friendly, polite, letting him pursue me, listening and keeping my contact short.
He still plans to d me, but is open to pushing it back some because that helps me out. Before he flat out hated me. He looks at it as we can be friends and coparent.
Exactly this.
After BD, but before she moved out, she wouldn't even sit in the same room. Saying hello or goodbye was the most I ever got, if I was lucky. The hate she had for me, for no apparent reason, was bewildering.
Suggestions to spend time together were met with angry spewing and monster. Now, nearly 3yrs on from BD and a year after she moved out, its invites for coffees and lunch and suggestions to celebrate family events together. All whilst the OM is on the side.
For me, its cake eating and emotional manipulation; I won't be a part of it. Its not the relationship I want with her. Its also, just too painful.
My question is similar to Finding Joy.....is it a partial turn back....testing the water.....seeing the reaction? Should I try to be a part of it, or is it just enabling her crisis?
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Hi Finding Joy and McKnight
Your question is kind of the same so I’m going to answer both of you.
Firstly, in my opinion, as long as om/ow is still in the picture your spouses are still in MLC.
My advice here, leave them to it, don’t think about how far along they are. I was unstable and during my time in MLC, as I worked subconsciously through my issues, I began to think more positively about my ex h but it would pass and the fog returned. Each time this happened, I would spend more time with the positive feelings and for longer periods. This is how I used the holes in the dam analogy.
Keep looking out for yourself and keep doing what you’re doing for you.
You know the drill, be polite, be kind but don’t be a doormat and only do what you feel comfortable with.
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Hi Alvin
I didn’t think there was anything wrong with me during MLC so I didn’t think I needed any kind of help and didn’t think I had any trouble functioning. I was in my own fantasy land and I decided what happened so I wouldn’t let anything or anyone to affect me. If anyone tried I ignored them and “wrote “ them out of my movie.
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Thanks for your reply SS - I hope you're doing ok.
MK
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Hi SS--I am one who has a good deal of compassion for my MLCH, even though I would really like to throat punch him some days. ::) Anyway, I know if he ever said the things you did to your H, and he has in a way, it would/has made me feel better to some degree. I personally think it took much courage and strength for you to face him and, as Brain said, to share with us. I like to think the people who disagree with your approach, or challenge you, are doing it out of love and hope that you are in a growing season. Everyone makes mistakes. None of us are perfect. And none of us has the right to judge another, especially someone we don't even really know. But that is just my humble opinion. Thank you again.
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I was unstable and during my time in MLC, as I worked subconsciously through my issues, I began to think more positively about my ex h but it would pass and the fog returned.
Hi Sis. I'm curious whether these positive thoughts were related to contact with your ex h or things he did or things you may have heard about him or did they just come out of the blue?
I hope you and your sister (Shock's Sis's Sis :) ) are having a good day today.
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SS - IMO, you gave your H a gift. You did what so many of us yearn for. Prayers that you both continue to heal.
Attaching!
Thankful you are willing to answer all our questions! Take care of you!
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Hi BIB
I didn’t have to have any contact with my ex h for the positive thoughts to come through. I remember vividly the first time I had a positive feeling toward my ex h whilst in MLC. I was in the shower, therefore I had no headphones or sunglasses on and suddenly this feeling of overwhelming love for my ex h came through. I broke down and cried, not weeping but heart wrenching sobs. I began thinking about him and then began to feel very unhappy about where I was in my life. The fog brushed aside the good feeling and replaced it with statements which were all negative, like see how unhappy just thinking about him makes you feel, it’s his fault all his fault. You’re way better off away from him etc. It’s like the fog was overriding the positive with negative.
Time between the lucid moments got shorter and the lucid moments lasted longer and longer.
I still maintain it was my brain testing to see if I could handle it. That’s what I believe anyway.
We are both good thank you BIB hope you’re well too.
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Thanks Sis. My wife continues to find a reason to contact me every few weeks. The latest conversation was just a few days ago. I try to keep my tone neutral when I respond to her, neither pursuing nor distancing. She seems to be trying to reconnect with some of her family who were very disapproving and with our youngest daughter who was practically hostile after BD, so I think she might be making some progress. She doesn't show any outward signs of interest in me but she continues to contact me every few weeks 5+ years after leaving and 2+ years after the divorce was finalized. That seems kind of odd.
It really isn't a problem if she takes her time. I'm not sane enough yet to be in a relationship any way. I still have some more "baking" to do. Honestly, I'm not really interested in the person she is right now but I do really miss the person she used to be.
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It really isn't a problem if she takes her time. I'm not sane enough yet to be in a relationship any way. I still have some more "baking" to do. Honestly, I'm not really interested in the person she is right now but I do really miss the person she used to be.
Everything you said right here! Totally and completely where I am as well. Thanks for articulating.
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Sis
When you had your Awakening in the shower, do you know why? Was there some sort of event that triggered it to happen?
I’m needing some reassurance that something has happened to him- that he doesn’t even know who I am -like someone with Alzheimer’s. Accurate?
Thanks xxx
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Hi Mego
No there was no trigger involved with the rush of feelings, at least none that I was aware of. I didn’t have my headphones on or my sunglasses so in the craziness of my MLC persona it was unguarded in a way.
As for your ex h not knowing you I was the opposite. I knew exactly who my ex h was he was my enemy though in that particular moment he was the man I loved, he was my h. This came as a shock as I was living my fantasy land life and became quite indifferent towards him though I think this again is all part of the process.
Told you it’s crazy but I think it was all necessary in order to process that which I had buried long ago.
That word again Mego, time. It can’t be rushed, it cannot be skipped over. It’s a journey with no shortcuts.
Build yourself up even if it’s from the ground but it’s something you need to do in order to move forward. Don’t become stuck and weak be strong and free yourself from his madness.
Shocks sis x
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Hi BIB
All I know is I blew up my life, that of my ex h and our marriage to come full circle and be back where I started but without my ex h.
I know it was necessary but it is a very high price to pay.
I wish you well as you come across as a good person dealing with a world of cr*p.
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Thanx Sis
It’s so funny, you quote RCR (without meaning to) when you mention time and also “having to go through MLC from beginning to end.” So clearly you had some clarity during your journey?
I was so hurt last night seeing XHs finger with a fat ring on it. I thought of you and prayed he would experience exactly what you did. I’m willing to wait (personal challenge) but sometimes need reassurance in my Stand. You give me that.
Xxxx
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SS,
DO YOU THINK THE LBS CAN PROLONG THE MLC? ESPECIALLY WITH CALLING THEM NAMES, TELLING THEM WHAT THEY ARE DOING WRONG AND SO ON?
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Hi Mego
At the very beginning I had confusion this moved to anger and then to indifference. Interestingly, it was during the anger merging to indifference was when the first clearing of the fog happened.
It is only with hindsight I look back now and truly understand the utter destruction I and I alone caused though in my fantasy bubble I was doing nothing wrong and I didn’t care what happened to my ex h until I did start to care and I did start to have clarity.
It’s so difficult to explain but I know I became a totally self absorbed and cruel person so completely different to the real me.
I was pathetic and weak and addicted to om or rather how he made me feel. The realisation that I was in a life I didn’t recognise and had brought all of it about by my own hand was truly horrific.
It again takes such a very long time to go full circle but that was what I had to do.
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Yes keep believing I do
It justifies in the MLCers mind that they were right in thinking you are the enemy, controlling, bossy etc.
Don’t react just respond positively and give them no reason to justify
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Thank you for continuing to share so clearly your journey through the crisis. Your words jumped out at me this morning:
I know I became a totally self absorbed and cruel person so completely different to the real me.
10 years later and he continues to be cruel...there is no need to be but for some time now, I have been aware of how cruel the things he does actually are.
I do not think it is intentional, I do not think he realizes how cruel his actions are....never the less the impact on my life, is a result of his actions.
Thanks so much for all you are giving to HS members.
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Yes keep believing I do
It justifies in the MLCers mind that they were right in thinking you are the enemy, controlling, bossy etc.
Don’t react just respond positively and give them no reason to justify
Thanks for your input and so openly sharing. I agree with this, and it also makes a challenging road for LBS at times.
My h was married before me. Sounds like (From him and the kiddos) the marriage was really bad. Over 10 years divorced and his XW continues to treat him like crap. When my H came back at the end of April this year, one of the things he did was thank me for being kind. There have been many times over the past two years when I feel angry and would like to retaliate, but I believe that would be another hurdle for us to overcome when he does come home. It's not always easy. I'm glad I've learned a bit about boundaries. It's a little bit of a balancing act to be kind, and also assert boundaries.
Shock--do you have any insights into remaining kind while also establishing boundaries? One of the things my H said when things were going poorly was that I didn't care about him at all. This is not true in the least, although I was working 60+ hours a week and I do believe he was feeling neglected (although he didn't tell me that and I would have dropped hours if he had). Anyway, I sometimes struggle with this now because I have asserted some boundaries in a kind way, and I do feel at times, that he sees this as me not caring about him. I'd be really interested in your insights on this. Thanks!
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I was unstable and during my time in MLC, as I worked subconsciously through my issues, I began to think more positively about my ex h but it would pass and the fog returned. Each time this happened, I would spend more time with the positive feelings and for longer periods. This is how I used the holes in the dam analogy.
When you had those longer periods of clarity & positive feelings would the fog then come on thicker??
I’m pretty much no contact with xH. It’s only when I’m in the car or in the room when kids FT him (it’s in court order to FT twice daily from my phone until they have their own). I ask this question as today is Diwali. It’s an occasion where we have many memories before & after the kids together. I have thankfully continued the traditions with the kids. I noticed on FT today that xH was acting really weird- talking like a teenager & kept repeating himself. Also kept talking about how he spent the day with OW’s son & how OW had cut his hair & then kept asking the girls repeatedly if they noticed :o. So he didn’t see his own family (not forgetting that Diwali is Hindu Xmas day). When he FT’d last night the girls & I were doing something he would have been involved in. It’s like any reminder or clarity of old life brings on this weird behaviour.
The behaviour prompted me to ask you this question as I’m curious to know what you experience after the clarity is? & if it’s pain driven or just more running?
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I do not think it is intentional, I do not think he realizes how cruel his actions are....never the less the impact on my life, is a result of his actions.
I agree. I believe the same thing about my wife and her actions.
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What was your h like to you during your mlc? The thing that gets me the most was that I was kind at times but then felt taken advantage of. Then there were times that we talked and I thought he understood. Nothing would change. This would cause anger in me then I would lash out. I am in no contact now .
Regardless of a reconciliation because he thinks I am the enemy , would he still end it with ow if he hits bottom?
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Hi SS. We keep hearing about the emotional angst and pain of the MLCer. Many people who have HAD A MLC and have also been a LBS say if they could choose just one, they would choose to be the LBS because the MLC was much worse. You may have answered this question somewhere in your previous threads and if so, I apologize but this is my question:
Can you identify any portion of your MLC were you felt genuinely happy? Or any time during the crisis when you truly felt peace and contentment?
If so,,what stage of your crisis did that occur? If your answer is Replay and since Replay is the longest stage and can span several years, can you be more specific, eg early replay, mid-replay, or late replay?
Thanks SS 8)
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Schock sis, thank you so much for continuing to contribute to this thread. So many of us appreciate what you have to say. Many or most of us have no idea what is going on in the head of our MLCer, our Hs. You help us immensely.
Your final line is also very valuable. As far as I'm concerned, an LBS is free to stand or not, or stand for a while until she doesn't, whatever she feels is right for her. Hopefully, this is a place where any of these options are ok.
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SS - I also thank you for our insight into am X- MLCer's processing of thoughts, behavior, interpretations, etc.
It is invaluable to those of us LBSs who have no clue what transpires in their heads.
You are very appreciated.
Sea
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Hi Rose
As I began to feel confusion and anger right at the beginning, before the fog descended fully I thought that was the worst part because I had all these mixed emotions ranging from a feeling of desperate sadness to this building dislike of my ex h. I felt lost and desperately lonely and didn’t know who I was. I couldn’t understand why I felt like this and began to form the idea it had to be because of my ex h. He brought about all of these feelings and if I could escape him then I would be happy.
Pre MLC I thought this was the worst time because I detached from him and began to live this selfish and all consuming fantasy of what I now know was total fantasy. My actions during this time were just completely self motivated and entirely about me. You would think I would be happy to have what I thought I wanted but it was escapism and rather than face what I was trying to run from I became faster at running so to speak. It was exhausting as I tried to ignore my moments of (sanity?) clarity. MLC was all consuming as you don’t get to bypass anything as once on this path I had to complete the journey. It’s like being on a hamster wheel, it didn’t matter how hard and fast I ran or how long I was running when I got out of the wheel I was back where I started but time had moved on.
Looking back now none of it was good but ALL of it was necessary.
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SS, you explain things so well I can see now why my former wife changed so rapidly from loving me to hating me,although she never actually said she hated me her actions thereafter spoke louder than words. She also said some bizzare things to me during that time. Once she told me " in three weeks you will forget all about me" we had been married for the best part of 26 years at that time. Can you remember making any bizzare statements to your former spouse or others that they questioned you about post MLC.
Kind regards
Jack
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Jack,
Mine said something similar. "You'll meet someone else within 3 months."
We had been together 27 years at the time. ::)
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SS - I also find your response to Rose's question interesting as my H got angrier and angrier as he began to pull away at the beginning of MLC.
"Pre MLC I thought this was the worst time because I detached from him and began to live this selfish and all consuming fantasy of what I now know was total fantasy. My actions during this time were just completely self motivated and entirely about me. You would think I would be happy to have what I thought I wanted but it was escapism and rather than face what I was trying to run from I became faster at running so to speak."
I'm curious why you mention this time of selfishness and detachment as "pre-MLC"? I always thought that part of our journey was part of his crisis.
Also, I can't remember if you were a monster? If so, can you remember when you began to stop monstering and blaming and what was going on inside your head at that time?
I apologize if you've answered this already.
Sea
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Seahorse, if I may.
I believe they have a few stages before they actually go into their MLC completely.
There is Anger, the Denial.
Ok, SS? :)
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NYM, I respect your opinion as I would expect you to respect mine. You have not lived my life and have no concept of my MLC nor my ex h.
So why do you generalize about MLCers as if you have a concept about THEIR MLC and the LBSes on here?
You get a lot of questions from members of this forum asking for predictions about the trajectory of their MLCer's MLC or your opinion on what they are thinking, etc. and you answer them.
So if I have no concept of your MLC (after 12 threads of you talking about it!?!) or your XH, how is it that YOU have a concept of others' MLC that you can answer their questions with such certainty? Do you have psychic powers?
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Thunder - thank you.
All I've seen is anger from the beginning, so I guess I thought that was just the early phases of MLC.
Sea
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NYM (Goner),
Sis has never proclaimed to know any of our MLC’ers. Not once.
I think you would antagonize Santa Claus.
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So why do you generalize about MLCers as if you have a concept about THEIR MLC and the LBSes on here?
You get a lot of questions from members of this forum asking for predictions about the trajectory of their MLCer's MLC or your opinion on what they are thinking, etc. and you answer them.
So if I have no concept of your MLC (after 12 threads of you talking about it!?!) or your XH, how is it that YOU have a concept of others' MLC that you can answer their questions with such certainty? Do you have psychic powers?
NYM, seriously, this is starting to seem a bit weird now, insisting people have things they have not said withou giving examples. I'm not even sure what you are trying to acheive tbh....sounds like you just don't want ShockSis to post bc you have decided that other people will think certain things if they read her posts Tbh it isn't the first time you have been rather aggressive towards ShockSis and I would prefer it if you would stop bc I believe it is verging on a kind of personal bullying now.
People ask ShockSis some version of 'Did you....?' from what I can see. She replies with something like 'I did/I felt' plus often a reassuring note that it isn't the LBS's fault and they should just get on with their lives if their MLCer is in Replay. I just don't remember seeing her say well, I did this so your h/w will do this too.
If others choose to believe that just bc ShockSis's experience was x, that means that x is true in their situation? Really not her responsibility if they fill that gap in without her involvement. People sometimes do the same with RCR....despite being shown words that say the exact opposite. Even by RCR herself sometimes ::) :)
There are discussion on these threads which ShockSis does not initiate or take part in from what I can see. Again, not her responsibility. If you don't like what she posts, stop reading or posting on her threads. As she politely asked you to do. If you are concerned about the conclusions that others reach, other than frankly letting them decide for themselves :), make your arguments on their threads or start your own thread to discuss and explore these opinions witn others.
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My, oh my, oh my...
PLEASE - this is ridiculous.
First - why are we polluting Shocks Sis's thread with unrelated posts?
split off by RCR
Second - There is no need for ANY comment which makes ANY LBS feel badly, intentionally or not.
We should always post with the intention of raising up the other LBSs, OR question them or their actions/beliefs in a loving manner.
Third - What have you LBSers learned? Why do you even respond to an acerbic comment?
ZIPNORE as Milly says!
Please just disregard. No need to defend yourself or anyone else (not a fixer)...
The poster will get tired of not getting feedback...
Sound like MLC?"?"?
Love and PEACE to you all!
Sea
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Sea, fair point and I edited my post a bit based on it.( don't worry, nobody missed anything exciting but I was a bit more strident and general than I wanted to be)
Mea culpa...sometimes I just get an allergic reaction to people who state personal opinions as facts. Or who are being a bit nasty towards someone who has politely asked them to stop. My echoes, my responsibility, occasionally fail to zipnore and my inner snark is released (it is an Oxford educated snark so it sounds really snotty and pretentious as only an English person can do lol)
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Hi Sis.
I've learned that you just can't win with some people so I usually just ignore them. The forum offers a tool that makes it easier to ignore specific members by blocking their posts. You still see that they've posted but their text isn't displayed unless you choose to have it displayed. I don't often block members but I've found a few that it has been best to block for my own piece of mind. They are usually people who I wouldn't choose to hang out with offline and so I also choose not to hang out with them online.
To block a member's posts you start by selecting Profile from the menu at the top of the forum. Next you select Buddies/Ignore List from the Modify Profile section on the left side of the page. Then you'll see two tabs near the middle of the page, Edit Buddies and Edit Ignore List. Select Edit Ignore List and then add the name of the forum member using the Add to Ignore List section at the bottom of the page. That's all there is to it. Then you can continue to read the forum without being bothered by that person's negativity.
I hope you and your sisters and your families are enjoying the first day of November. Now that Halloween is over Christmas music should be playing in all of the stores. :)
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As I began to feel confusion and anger right at the beginning, before the fog descended fully I thought that was the worst part because I had all these mixed emotions ranging from a feeling of desperate sadness to this building dislike of my ex h. I felt lost and desperately lonely and didn’t know who I was. I couldn’t understand why I felt like this and began to form the idea it had to be because of my ex h. He brought about all of these feelings and if I could escape him then I would be happy.
Pre MLC I thought this was the worst time because I detached from him and began to live this selfish and all consuming fantasy of what I now know was total fantasy. My actions during this time were just completely self motivated and entirely about me. You would think I would be happy to have what I thought I wanted but it was escapism and rather than face what I was trying to run from I became faster at running so to speak. It was exhausting as I tried to ignore my moments of (sanity?) clarity. MLC was all consuming as you don’t get to bypass anything as once on this path I had to complete the journey. It’s like being on a hamster wheel, it didn’t matter how hard and fast I ran or how long I was running when I got out of the wheel I was back where I started but time had moved on.
Looking back now none of it was good but ALL of it was necessary.
Hi Shock Sis,
If the worst time for you was pre-MLC, was there a time during the crisis where you actually felt happy and content?
I asked this before (post#52) but shortly after this thread took off with a life of its own and this question may have got left behind.
Thank you. And,,,I for one very much appreciate reading your thoughts and comments. The criticisms you are getting from some (one) poster are pretty typical regardless of who is addressed. It sounds like you are not taking it personally anyway 🙂
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For me the worst part was the latest past of Reply, when I couldn't find the exit anymore.
My depression became covert
At that point I couldn't ignore to deal with my issues anymore. I was forced to deal with it.
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For me the worst part was the latest past of Reply, when I couldn't find the exit anymore.
Interesting Busy--what do you mean by this? You mean escape from the hurt? Fantasy was not working anymore?
And did you mean the depression became overt? B/c, and I could be working, but I think covert depression is basically replay--doing all kinds of "exciting" things to avoid the depression.
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Hi Thunder, I’m sorry you heard similar words, I was shattered I bet you were too. I feel for all the newbies here just starting their journey as I was a complete mess and broken. A part of me died that day as I knew we were finished when she spoke those words...A real dagger through my heart.
The work Shock Sis is doing here will give the newbies a first hand account of the mind set of Shock Sis at the time and help them to digest the many useful articles provided and make their own comparisons regarding their Mlc Spouse. Keep up the good work SS 👍👌
Kind regards
Jack
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KIT,
Sooner or later all of them would turn having an overt depression, means they are in liminality.
First 3 stages of MLC spent in overt depression which you can manage by shutting it down with reply activities. Fantasy would not work anymore..neighter for a wallower or a high energy replyer...doesn't matter the type. Process is the same for evertybody.
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Sorry ,
COVERT depression goes together with liminality
If you see monstering from your MLCer , he is not good :)
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Jack, thank you. He was convinced I didn't love him and nothing I said would change his mind.
Crazy times.
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Hi Thunder mine was quite sure too, resolute that she would be better off without me, I guess she did win mr cheater pants as a consolation prize. It’s just a matter of time to find out who cheats on who first.
Jack
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Hi Sea, Rose and Anon
I think how I wrote that was misleading. I will try again.
What I refer to as Pre MLC, when I didn’t know it was MLC and had very negative feelings and thoughts mingled in with normal feelings and thoughts and feelings of love then hatred. It was very confusing and very frightening if I’m honest. This time was to me at that point the worst because I was beginning to lose myself and I thought I was going mad.
Once replay as you call it hit I felt happy in that my fantasy was under my control if you like as in my own movie which I both wrote and decided who was going to be in it or not. I felt happy because I had my perfect leading man who I could interact with or not when I wanted ( remember he wasn’t in my country and I could go see him and be in my happy selfish bubble) and I could do and say as I pleased.
Once I started to doubt the fantasy and began to see the reality this became my worst part and so as each stage was entered they then became the worst part but in reality, with the benefit of hindsight ALL of it was horrible but ALL of it was necessary.
Hope that helps
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Hi all,
Another thread already.
BIB thank you for the guidance on blocking, much appreciated.
Sea I monstered a lot at first when I was at my angriest but my anger changed to indifference and I really couldn’t care less about my ex h. As awful as that is to type let alone think it was true at that time.
Thank you again for all your support and interest. I will never be driven away by certain people or the things they say. I am a recovered MLCer and I am a lot stronger and wiser for it.
Please feel free to ask questions and as always I will do my best to answer you.
Above all you wonderful army of LBSers, know you are all good people and ALL of you don’t deserve what is happening to you because of one very broken and fragile person.
Be strong because your MLCER isn’t, be brave because your MLCer isn’t. Look after you and let your MLCer go for a ride on the crazy bus whilst you keep your feet planted firmly on the ground for there is nothing you can do for them at this time but everything you can do for yourselves.
Shocks sis
Previous thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11177.0
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Sis
I love being first to a thread! Thanks for your answer to my question about the worst parts of your MLC. It seemed like the beginning and end of the tunnel were harder than going through it when you were in complete fantasy. It’s so interesting.
If there are any parts of anything you remember or what to just mention we’d love to hear them!
Thanks a lot
Rose 🌹
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Attatching and thank you SS
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Thank you SS
It is more clear when you put it that way.
I think us LBSers see it the same way.
It is horrible before we understand about MLC when the hatred and not knowing what's going on is occurring.
Once we understand MLC a bit, it makes it easier to understand what the MLCer is doing, even if not understanding what is going on in their mind.
I was able to accept it once I understood that he was living a totally different life than he had in 34 years because of something HE was choosing to do, not because of something I had done.
I think my H is still in replay, and nowhere near hitting the realization that that the fantasy is just that. No introspection yet whatsoever (that I am aware of or can see anyway).
Thank you for your clarification.
Sea
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Thank you SS and following on your new thread.
I appreciate your clarification at the end of your last thread; just posted on it before I saw your new one!
Sea
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Sis,
Your accounting of being in a movie is so fascinating. Because Stayed’s H (a recovered MLCer) said the EXACT SAME THING!
When you were in your movie - was your XH cast as a character in it? Or was he just totally gone?
New thread https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11196.0
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Attaching
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Hi ss. I’m glad you have chosen you have chosen to continue on to another thread. I’ve brought my question over from previous thread. It was before other discussions took over so was prob missed.
Quote from: Shockandawe on October 24, 2019, 02:14:36 PM
”I was unstable and during my time in MLC, as I worked subconsciously through my issues, I began to think more positively about my ex h but it would pass and the fog returned. Each time this happened, I would spend more time with the positive feelings and for longer periods. This is how I used the holes in the dam analogy. “
When you had those longer periods of clarity & positive feelings would the fog then come on thicker??
I’m pretty much no contact with xH. It’s only when I’m in the car or in the room when kids FT him (it’s in court order to FT twice daily from my phone until they have their own). I ask this question as today is Diwali. It’s an occasion where we have many memories before & after the kids together. I have thankfully continued the traditions with the kids. I noticed on FT today that xH was acting really weird- talking like a teenager & kept repeating himself. Also kept talking about how he spent the day with OW’s son & how OW had cut his hair & then kept asking the girls repeatedly if they noticed :o. So he didn’t see his own family (not forgetting that Diwali is Hindu Xmas day). When he FT’d last night the girls & I were doing something he would have been involved in. It’s like any reminder or clarity of old life brings on this weird behaviour.
The behaviour prompted me to ask you this question as I’m curious to know what you experience after the clarity is? & if it’s pain driven or just more running?
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Hello Shocksis
I have been reading your treads for awhile now, but it is the first time I reply.
I have found all the information so useful, as it gives me an insight on what has been going on with my MLCer wife. A lot of the things that you have mentioned you did and said; she has done and said.
Thank you so much for being so brave to post about your experience here; it is invaluable. Please keep on posting. Attaching.
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Attaching and when I get a moment will catch up on your other threads
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Hi Bewildered
Sorry I missed your question but I will try to answer.
When clarity hit it was beautiful as I could feel the love I had before but it had been inaccessible to me so this overwhelming sense of normalcy of feelings returned and the tears would come as I was afraid I was going crazy. The fog would descend and snatch away the feeling of love and replace it with negativity and indifference. I would then run harder and push away anything which would make me question what was happening. So, yes it would come on thicker and deeper for a while but as time passed the ability of the fog to keep covering my real feelings became harder and harder until I had more clarity than fog.
It’s so difficult to explain this but I hope it gives you some insight.
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Thanx for explaining the pockets of clarity, Sis
The only thing I’ve never understood about them is why are they so DESPERATE? Like, out of breath, scared - like they’ve just broken out of jail?
It was REAL H, underneath this panic. What was he trying to escape from?
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Hi Bewildered
Sorry I missed your question but I will try to answer.
When clarity hit it was beautiful as I could feel the love I had before but it had been inaccessible to me so this overwhelming sense of normalcy of feelings returned and the tears would come as I was afraid I was going crazy. The fog would descend and snatch away the feeling of love and replace it with negativity and indifference. I would then run harder and push away anything which would make me question what was happening. So, yes it would come on thicker and deeper for a while but as time passed the ability of the fog to keep covering my real feelings became harder and harder until I had more clarity than fog.
It’s so difficult to explain this but I hope it gives you some insight.
Thank you for this explanation. I think this is what I’ve been seeing from my h. It’s most definitely confusing for the LBS so I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Thanks
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NYM, I respect your opinion as I would expect you to respect mine. You have not lived my life and have no concept of my MLC nor my ex h.
So why do you generalize about MLCers as if you have a concept about THEIR MLC and the LBSes on here?
You get a lot of questions from members of this forum asking for predictions about the trajectory of their MLCer's MLC or your opinion on what they are thinking, etc. and you answer them.
So if I have no concept of your MLC (after 12 threads of you talking about it!?!) or your XH, how is it that YOU have a concept of others' MLC that you can answer their questions with such certainty? Do you have psychic powers?
NYM can be harsh, but she is not necessarily wrong and she makes good points. Those who have followed Shocked Sis' 12 threads should have some basic (or more) idea of her MLC. Asking why her singular experience qualifies her is valid even if it comes off as abrasive and challenging--and the same words may not have come off that way from someone else who does not have a history of seeming abrasive.
Think of those questions people outside of our MLC world ask us. Why are you still with him/her? That question is often asked with a tone that clearly implies the speaker is sneering and does not agree with your choice; they are not really asking for the answer, they are saying that your answer is wrong without caring to hear it.
BUT...does that mean the question is not important. Does it mean we should not have that question in our minds as well as our answers--sometimes that answer might be I don't know. That particular question can be so sensitive that when I ask it, I let the person know I am not trying to imply an answer, but that I think it is important for them personally to have an understanding of why they are still here and doing this.
Upon reading NYM's questions to Shocked Sis' many may be assuming she is implying that Shocked Sis should not be offering answers, and and that may be what she is saying, or she is seeking an actual answer. I think others have offered some valid answers in place of Shocked Sis.
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RCR
How did you answer that question?
It’s annoying, and so hard to explain....!
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Quoting NYM's earlier post:
So if I have no concept of your MLC (after 12 threads of you talking about it!?!) or your XH, how is it that YOU have a concept of others' MLC that you can answer their questions with such certainty? Do you have psychic powers?
I let this pass but I've decided to address it since it's been brought up again.
Let me change this to a question about a hypothetical situation.
So if I have no concept of what it was like for you to be kidnapped and held captive by the Taliban for 4 years (after reading a 20 page article that you wrote about it), how is it that YOU have a concept of what it's like for others who have been kidnapped and held captive by the Taliban that you can answer questions about it with such certainty? Do you have psychic powers?
I'm sorry if my hypothetical situation offends anyone but I hope it helps to point out how ludicrous it is to assume that reading 12 threads containing a handful of posts written by a person who lived through an MLC would provide the reader with more than just a very superficial understanding of what it was like.
While you were reading Sis's threads, could you feel the confusion, the anger, the fear, the relief, the sorrow, the giddiness, the shame, the emptiness, and everything else that she felt and experienced. Not understand it but actually feel it?
Once you have lived through it, you don't need psychic powers to feel what it's like for another person who is going through it. Until you have lived through it, you can't even begin to imagine what it's really like.
IMHO as a fellow traveler.
A question for all of the LBSes. Do you feel that your experience as an LBS has made it possible for you to understand what it feels like for other LBSes? Do you think the people you know in RL who haven't had the experience of being an LBS know how it feels for you? If you were to let those people read a few of the threads you have written do you think that would be enough for them to feel what you've felt?
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RCR, I'm sorry but I disagree with you on the point I think you are making.
That the tone of NYM's question is a distraction but that the valid question is worth asking. And that the question NYM is asking is something like Why do You think your experience is a general prediction of others experience, Shock Sis?
I disagree bc asking the question is founded on the basis that this is what ShockSis is doing.
That she is saying this happened to me like this so this is what is happening to your spouse.
Hence NYM's tone and the accusation of thinking she has psychic powers.
And this is simply not what I see ShockSis doing.
She is being asked about HER experience and responds by talking about HER experience. I don't recall one example of when she has said that her answers are about anything more than that. So it feels rather like one of those 'when did you stop beating your wife' kind of questions...MBIB and myself have asked NYM to give examples. So far she has not. ShockSis has responded politely and respectfully asked NYM to stop beating the same drum.
It really seems quite unfair to ask someone questions then put words into their mouth, and then ask them to account for them and defend themselves about things they did not say and claims they do not make. Almost nonsensical actually. And respectfully it has a whiff of MLC like logic about it which is rather unpleasant to see and all too familiar to many LBS, so I am disappointed to see your post.
And I rather like Brain's take on it and his Taliban example....
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What I find unreasonable is NYM attributes behaviors to ShockSis she doesn’t demonstrate. She accuses Shock Sis of both minor and major transgressions relative to providing LBS information, and she does it in a way that is bitter and belittling (what are you psychic?? ... my answer? Who knows, maybe she’s quite intuitive - wouldn’t be the first person who can read people’s energy and intentions.) Shock Sis answers questions from her perspective, she does not make predictions as to how any particular situation might end and she typically is careful to remind everyone she is speaking only from her own experience.
I personally don’t think it is reasonable or helpful to put up with this kind of bullying behavior by anyone. I love a good debate, I think differing opinions are helpful and necessary, I am not opposed to a 2x4 delivered out of compassion and good intention. But the condescension and bullying, it’s unnecessary and harmful, and I believe RCR is off base on this one.
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RCR
I am not qualified in the answers to everyone else’s MLC and I have never professed as much. I have repeatedly said my experience is my own but if it helps in anyway to get across the mindset and actions of someone who has travelled through MLC then that is what I am trying to do. The fact MLC is as prolific as it seems to be and that although different in each case the similarities are startling. If I can demystify any part of it then I will do so.
Not once have I ever said because I did this then your MLCer will do the same.
I am not and have never held psychic abilities.
What I am is a person who entered MLC, lived it for 4 plus years and came through the other side. I don’t enter into the “debates “ that go on, I choose not to as they become confrontational.
I don’t understand why someone thinks they know me because of the number of threads written on a subject that ran for such a long time that it is simply not possible to fit into 12 threads is somewhat blasé in my opinion.
I will continue to answer to the best of my ability until I am told otherwise.
Shocks sis recovered MLCer
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I appreciate Treasur's clarification. I'm afraid I really didn't understand the point of RCR's post and I don't seem to be the only one since I received a PM from another member questioning RCR's point. I believe the point I made, that Sis is capable of understanding what it's like for somebody going through an MLC because she experienced one herself, is valid but unnecessary because I agree with Treasur's point that Sis has never tried to use her understanding of MLC to explain anyone else's MLC but rather to describe her personal experience. This whole conversation has been almost as confusing as MLC itself. :P
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I agree Treasur and Brain
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This whole conversation has been almost as confusing as MLC itself. :P
And if it quacks like a duck..... ;)
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Yes, Brain
I was confused too
-mego
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I agree with what Treasur said. I'm a little surprised that RCR felt the need to enter this discussion in what feels a little provocative. I, like many others, are enjoying everything that Shock Sis is sharing with us. I certainly don't need to defend Shock Sis, she is clearly well capable of taking care of herself and she does so in a gracious way. If someone doesn't believe her, just don't follow her thread.
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My wife has been gone for more than 5 years now. So much time has passed with us going our separate ways that I'm beginning to think that she may be gone forever. We are both very different people than we were 5 years ago.
Sis, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts based on your experience. Do you think you still know your husband? Do you think that he still knows you?
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MBIB - Thats a very interesting question....I don't recognise my former wife. I certainly feel I don't know her anymore. The woman I met 25yrs ago would never have done the things she has; I wouldn't even know where to start, trying to start again - she has caused too much damage and inflicted too much pain.
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To be perfectly honest, I am totally confused and my point seems to have not been made at all since no one got it. I was confused from the first response (Mego) after mine (I wasn't trying to answer a question) and my confusion has just continued.
Sometimes a person is going to ask a question that feels like a challenge and it may be a challenge coming from the asker, but that does not invalidate the question itself.
I was not asking Shocked Sis a question, I said that it is a good thing to understand the question and its answers--personally, those need not be shared. I also said that others came in and offered valid answers to the question. Shocked Sis has now posted with the same basic answer... she is not predicting, she consistently highlights that she is talking about her experience and that due to the similarities in MLC script, people might make a generalization about their situation based on her experience.
I have no idea whether NYM was intentionally being negative in her tone and question, my point is that regardless of NYM's intentions with the question, that type of question is still valid. I did not say I wanted an answer or that I am asking the question. It's valid as an internal question for the person being asked...what makes me qualified. And it is not asked from a position of self-doubt, but simply self-knowledge.
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I just enjoy Shocksis thread, and don’t overthink others comments as it causes bad feeling and takes away from the experience.
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Sometimes a person is going to ask a question that feels like a challenge and it may be a challenge coming from the asker, but that does not invalidate the question itself.
After reading RCR's post several times to try to understand her point, I'm still not sure, but I think the above portion may be the point. That is, that the fact that a question feels like a challenge and perhaps may be a challenge, doesn't invalidate the question.
I'm afraid this is a generalization that I find it difficult to agree with. I agree that any question, even one that is asked in a challenging manner, is worth considering and that in many cases it may be a valid question but I believe that a question that is focused through the lenses of malice and bias may very well not be a valid question.
And what do we do with a question like the one NYM asked, even if there is no malice or bias, when the question is based on faulty assumptions? Should we consider a question that is based on faulty assumptions to be a valid question? I know how academia would respond to such a question.
It's valid as an internal question for the person being asked...what makes me qualified. And it is not asked from a position of self-doubt, but simply self-knowledge.
I'm really trying to figure this out. Maybe this is the point. That is, that these types of questions that trigger self reflection are valid as a way to increase the self-knowledge of the person being asked the questions. I agree that questions that help us to increase our self knowledge are useful but I don't agree that all questions can be considered valid for that purpose. Questions can be constructed so that they cause shame and self doubt and I wouldn't consider those to be valid questions or even worthy of consideration.
I think problems result when we try to generalize. I believe it would be best to address the specific question asked by NYM. Less room for confusion this way. I believe the sarcastic tone of the question indicates that it was not challenging but instead mean-spirited and the context shows that it was based upon faulty assumptions. Therefore, I believe that specific question was not a valid question and it should have been ignored, which I believe it generally was when it was initially asked, and now that it has been exhumed it has consumed far more forum space than it ever deserved.
It's late and I may have once again completely missed the point. If so, I apologize for further muddying the waters.
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For me, it is the "tone" and accusation somehow that Shocksis doesn't know what she is talking about that is negative about NYM's post. I did not see it as NYM really wanting an answer or asking a valid question, but as she has done many times before, somehow attacking another poster for her own thoughts and experiences. Others might read NYM differently, although I would say that several people have expressed their feelings about how Shocksis is a target and is being discredited by such comments as NYM made.
When I break down NYM's comment in my head, it creates an uncomfortable feeling for me, and I wasn't the one that it was addressed to. I just don't see it as a valid asking of a question. I see it as ridiculing another poster.
So if I have no concept of your MLC (not sure where this is coming from for Shocksis has explained her MLC in detail)
after 12 threads of you talking about it!?! what does it matter how many threads Shocksis has started? A great deal of her threads are people's questions and arguments such as this The ! ? ! at the end of the phrase also strikes me when I read it
or your XH,
how is it that YOU have a concept of others' MLC the capitalization of YOU also seems negative to me
that you can answer their questions with such certainty? I don't see Shocksis answering others with certainty..she refers to her own experiences
Do you have psychic powers? just rude
Many of us used to ask Stayed questions about how she "got her man back" and I see those same questions being asked of Acorn. Because normally we feel that we can solve problems in life, it is normal to look for answers and possible ways to help save our marriages. I think it somehow is calming, the knowledge that is given by Shocksis and others about their own crisis, helps us to understand better what has happened to our loved ones.
I don't think HS should be used to attack another who is writing from her own perspective.
It's not about asking a valid question, it feels more like telling another that they and their experience is wrong and invalid.
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I agree with what both you and MB said.
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What Xy said!
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My perception is that RCR ‘s answer reflects a response to a dilemma that has been highlighted recently. This a general support forum with a huge community of people with their own circumstances and needs.
Where is the boundary between gently supporting fragile and damaged individuals and colluding unhealthily in their fantasies of love restored? Fantasies that generally come from the loss of identity caused by an act of total betrayal and a realistic fear of abandonment and it’s destructive consequences.
The time it takes us to get out of this place depends on our starting point. My own sense of identity was more fragmented than I realised before BD so the journey is long.
It is a hard call for an experienced therapist to judge when a nudge towards reality should be given and how it should be offered. It is beyond the scope of a public forum to give such sensitive and individualised advice, even though as we all acknowledge, we have all been offered a lot of great advice and genuinely valuable support in our very lonely moments.
I read RCR’s comment as a kind of recognition of some recent criticism that suggests there is too much marshmallow-style collusion and that we need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Sometimes we are too marshmallowy. Sometimes (more rarely) people are unempathic and even callous.
There isn’t an answer. When we are desperately sad, looking to an ex MLCr to help us with answers distracts us from indescribable hurt. At some stage it is the wrong thing because instead of looking for answers from her or others or even wondering about the rationale of our MLCr, we need to be doing the really deep work of discovering what is in us that brought us to this situation in life and keeps us here. While we look at our partner we avoid ourselves.
But that work comes a lot later. And not everyone does it at all let alone to a similar degree. I’m not convinced that many MLC people, even when restored, truly understand what the causes inside them were. They generally just know they feel more balanced and realistic about life.
Anyway, I just think that reminders to keep moving forward are good and comfort is good too, and we can’t ask for a perfect answer Here, but we will find plenty of imperfectly targeted but largely sensible and loving support.
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Nerissa, I was going to PM you, but I want to say this publicly.
You often give very measured, thoughtful, unifying responses to what are divisive discussions, and I for one very much appreciate your voice on this forum.
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Hi BIB
Had to give this question some thought because I feel I am the core person I was before MLC but with more positive improvements as in I am a better person than I was pre MLC.
My ex h is remarried and the person he is now he’s in that relationship means in all probability he’s different than he was during our relationship.
I feel I still know him because he is the same person when around me that I always knew.
During my MLC I changed and so did he in order to adapt to the selfish, nasty, cruel and vindictive person I became. It’s something he had to do in order to protect himself and process the destruction and burning down of his world.(this is something I have to live with).
I believe, I know him and I know he knows me, the real me not the evil alien I became. We were great friends before we became a couple and, though I love him as much as I ever did I am still different because I have to be as in careful not to cause him problems in his relationship and so I am measured in my responses and interactions. It’s not how I want to be but I do this for him.
Hard one to explain properly but I hope you can understand what I’m attempting to explain.
As I was different so was he.
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SS - when you surfaced for TNGs or anchor checks, were you aware of what you were doing?
Did they impact you in any way - make you feel more attached, sad, etc?
What were your feelings during and afterward, if you felt anything?
Did they become more frequent over time, as the fog cleared (I believe that answer is yes, but please let us know if different).
Thanks.
Sea
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ShockSis, I know you’ve talked about how you had moments of fog lifting and clarity from time to time, and that led to the fog eventually lifting and awareness and love coming back in - But I am not sure if this question has been asked and answered before, I am curious to know if during the deepest part of your crisis, even when you became indifferent and the fog was fully present, did you have any awareness of your H and what he was doing? Did any of his actions impact you or resonate with you? Did you still think of him day to day or were you so deeply entrenched that you simply didn’t think of him much at all?
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Hi Sea
My feelings during moments of clarity flooded me and I broke down many times.
I didn’t do anchor checks because he moved on pretty quickly after BD so there was no point.
I felt happy when clarity came but would cry and the fog would come back I think to protect me from the hurt and fear.
They kept coming more and more until the fog was so weak it couldn’t hold them back.
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Thank you SS!
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Hi 3boys
When I was in the deepest part of my MLC I was totally indifferent to my ex h. I couldn’t care less at this time if I never saw him again.
I had no thought either positive or negative once I hit indifference.
He was more an annoyance I didn’t want anything to do with. Kind of like a stranger in the street, he meant nothing at all.
How awful that is still staggers me.
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Thank you for your honesty, painful as it is to hear.
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Hi SS,
You may not be able to answer this question but I’m gonna throw it out there. My h seems confused about the changes in me. Like you mentioned before, I had to adapt to deal w some of his negative changes. For example, I’ve always been really chatty and open with him. I’m not as chatty and I definitely don’t share everything I’m thinking or feeling anymore. I don’t believe he is at a place yet where I can do that, although he has expressed a desire that I do that.
Anyway, my question is: you know your xh had to adapt and make some changes within himself. Now that the fog has cleared, do you wish he was back to the man he was before and/or do you see some of his changes as positive? (I recognize this is a weird question as he is repartnered).
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Yet here you are Sis, telling your tale and providing some inspiration for Standers to keep going.
Well done, SS, well done.
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Hi SS,
Thanks for continuing to be here with us.
Similar to Surviving’s question, which was about your husband, I am curious about positive changes within you as a result of the MLC. If you already answered and I missed it -my apologies.
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Hi Surviving
It’s not a weird question at all and though I cannot answer for my ex h I can for my fathers MLC which happened when I was growing up.
Shock and I’s Father changed from ever day slightly overweight cardigan wearing Dad to someone resembling a 70’s porn star complete with the big moustache and flash car. Once out of MLC though he changed back into ordinary Dad but with improvements such as he was a lot calmer and patient. He was Dad again but better.
Hope it helps
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Onwards together we go Mego
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Hi Granite
I know my daughter tells me I don’t get stressed so much and I’m more laid back about things such as if I don’t want to cook a Sunday lunch we will have pizza etc. I am more rational and less quick to anger. I have a compassion and understanding for people which is deeper than before.
I actually like myself and have no fear of being alone.
I worry less about what ifs and instead think keep going forward and don’t worry about what you cannot change.
I feel happier and am able to talk about my father and my feelings without having to lock than down.
I am sure there are more but these are what came to me.
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Hi Sis,
You've mentioned that your husband moved on pretty quickly after your BD to him. You've also mentioned that he got into a new relationship right away and married that person. What is the chance, in your opinion, that he is going through his own mlc's?
Thank you so much for sharing and opening up about your situation.
Stand
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Sis
When my H was going in to the tunnel he said to me ‘I’ve turned into someone I never wanted to be’. He was crying. I couldn’t decide if he meant a father and husband (the real H) or someone having an affair (MLC H).
It doesn’t really matter but I’ve just always wondered. Is it clear to you? I realise it’s a guess.
Thanks!
Rose 🌹
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Rose, mine said he was trying to protect me from who he is now.
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Finding
How did you respond to that?
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It was maybe 9 months ago Mego. I don’t remember clearly. I vaguely remember thinking who the hell are you...
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That's very familiar to me because in the very beginning, after BD my H did something so out of character and I was so confuses and said ...."This is just not like you."
He thought for a second or two and said.."Yeah...well..I don't feel like myself anymore."
I think that is very telling of the confused state of mind they are in.
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Mine too was behaving so out of character, our kids started calling him Dad 2, one day early on, S12.5 told his dad that he was different and didn’t seem like himself anymore, my spouse said, “I know I’m different, but you need to get used to it, I think this guy is going to be around for awhile.” That was probably two years ago and “that guy” is still around, while my former H seems further and further away...
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I told x he was not himself and his comment to me was “maybe this is who I am now”... with loads of anger. He also told me he was protecting me from him.
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A deep thanks SS,
I actually like myself and have no fear of being alone.
This is what I have always wanted for my Wife. No matter what happens with us if she is someday able to make the same statement I will consider this trial/test/torture worth it.
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My x said about a year or 2 ago , Kb this isnt me , you have to know this isnt me, after he said he hated what he did to me and the kids. I thought this was some sort of awakening but nope. He is still crazy.
SS, My questions keep getting lost in your thread. How did you x treat you during your mlc before he moved on?
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Hi KB
My ex h begged and pleaded a lot, became very clingy and asked a lot of questions about our relationship. I became angrier and angrier and more cruel and monstered a lot. I know he was devastated but I was in total denial about my guilt and about the fact I was doing this to him and became even more hostile. Anything he did or said even remotely connected to us and I would get irritated and angry. I truly was an awful person.
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Shocks sis,
Did your husband ever enact and enforce No Contact with you during your MLC?
and,
Would you say that your husband’s moving on with someone else was what jarred you toward clarity and coming out of the fog? Or did your love for him resurface independently of his life or choices.
I’m not looking for any prescription or right” answer, just curious about your own experience here. As LBS I am not likely to repartner. Ever, really. Now many years into the MLC dynamic, I still feel far too damaged to risk entering relationship with anyone new. I don’t see any way I would ever trust another intimacy or my own perceptions safely again.
I kind of think men have it easier in that sense, for whatever reason. Seems unfair.
The weird thing is that even with all the MLC damage, I do see potential for trusting H again should he ever return to be husband again. But I see zero potential for ever trusting any other man. The idea of partnering with someone new scares me to death, and makes me feel so tired.
Do you ever think about partnering with someone new? Not really a question from LBS to former MLCer, but rather from one female heart to another female heart. At midlife and with crisis/transition mostly behind you, if your h has “moved on”, is couplehood something you would/will/want to do again? You don’t have to answer that, here or at all. I’m asking because I’m surprised at how I don’t see it for my own life, and am wondering in my own life whether it might just be common for women at midlife, even crisis aside. It’s not a lack of desire, for me, but just that I still feel so stunned.
Thank you as always for sharing your perspective.
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Hi Terra
He didn’t initiate no contact as we have a daughter and at the time when he met his now wife I was at the stage where I didn’t care at all and also felt relieved that he wouldn’t be on my case.
As for any future relationship I haven’t lost my trust in men since it was I who imploded the marriage and I take full responsibility for that.
Currently I’m not looking for any relationship but that doesn’t mean I’m not open to the idea and if anyone good crosses my path then so be it.
I do however enjoy being on my own with my own company and my family I may be alone but I’m not lonely. I am at peace with myself and have come to terms with everything. I deeply regret what happened and wish it could be different. I can understand your trust issues as someone in MLC is possibly the biggest liar and the worst a person can be to another person in a relationship. Not all men are that way. But even your MLCer as you know isn’t the person you knew and I think it’s important to remember that. MLC is a compulsion not a choice.
Keep looking forward Terra
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Terra,
I'm a man but I have the same concerns you have about new relationships and I know other men who feel the same way.
As a man it seems to me that it's easier for a woman to live alone and still have full and satisfying friendships than it is for men. It seems to me that most men who are alone are truly alone. To me, that seems unfair.
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Ah, if only life were fair, Brain lol...not a gender issue, lonely as hell here :)...but I see feeling lonely as a sign of progress post My Grand PTSD Party...
haven’t lost my trust in men since it was I who imploded the marriage and I take full responsibility for that.
Was chatting to another LBS about the loss of 'We' and how our perspective changes. Seems to be a weird irony that the ones who blow the We up still value the idea of being in a We. I suppose as you say ShockSis there is less risk perhaps if you were 'the one wot done it' and now feel that you would not do it again.
Whereas the ones who got blown up took a lot of damage because they valued the We so much...and had to change a lot of their beliefs and habits to survive...and for some they find it hard, having dragged themselves up and on, to visualise being part of a We again. Which is sad really bc often we were very good at being part of a We even if the other half broke.
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Wow T,
You said it so good.... and so right.
We are the ones who were the half that kept "we" rolling. And we are the ones who have trouble accepting "we" again. So interesting.
You are so right about the (ex)MLC'er getting into another R, no problem. Every (Ex)Mlc'er I've talked to was in another (or multiple) R's after their MLC..... no problem. Like it was a bump in the road or something.
So completely unfair.
Maybe because it's givers and takers. We LBS's are givers. Once we realize we've been taken for a ride and the ride ends.... we aren't so giving anymore. Takers on the other hand still take, need to take and will find someone who will give. They may change after MLC (especially if it was a successful MLC) but the (Ex)Mlc'ers I've found who weren't successful are still their taking, codependent selves. No change except a big helping of guilt, shame and more items for continued avoidance. The really bad thing is.... those who don't have a successful MLC and change..... when they come out, they are permanently stuck in this new "half-self". I don't think they ever resolve.
-SS
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Me too I feel tired if I think of being with someone else. I am lonely and want a partner but if I think of meeting someone new I just can’t face it. I also can not trust anyone again. Maybe trust would come eventually if the person is trustworthy but it seems like such an effort to find out. For some bizarre reason I’d rather take my chances with my H and yet he is a proven cheater. It’s all so hard to get my head around.
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It's probably a bit odd but I agree with Terra. If my wife makes it through her MLC and wants to reconcile, I would find it easier to trust her than somebody new. Before my wife's BD we had 30 years during which I never had any reason not to totally trust her. I consider MLC to be an anomaly. Once it's done, it's done.
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It's probably a bit odd but I agree with Terra. If my wife makes it through her MLC and wants to reconcile, I would find it easier to trust her than somebody new. Before my wife's BD we had 30 years during which I never had any reason not to totally trust her. I consider MLC to be an anomaly. Once it's done, it's done.
I agree with both of you. I’ve thought about this a lot. I know my H and it would be mush easier and for me safer to trust him once he’s out of this MLC then to try and trust someone new.
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Um... I feel a little weird in saying this...... but does any else feel this way (in theory)?
We LBS's think about all the different possibilities, how can we not?
In my case.... I know W could collapse, relapse big time and become even worse..... D me, hurt me, wreck me. All possible.
Let's say the worst happens and I find myself alone, D'ed and there's no going back.
Assuming I ever give someone else a chance (which would be so hard as I promised to be loyal until the end). Assuming there could ever be someone else..... at this age almost everyone who is single is D'ed.
I just find the thought of being with someone who used to be someone else's so unnerving. So unnatural. Is that weird?
I also don't like the idea that I belonged to someone..... promised someone, and could be with someone else. That feels like betrayal, and I'm no traitor. How to be not married when you're not the one who choose to end a marriage? It is perplexing to me. Such a paradox.
I guess it sorta like old people I'd see when I was very young. They be married to someone for 50+ years and then their spouse would pass away...... and then within a year or two they were remarried again!!! I would look at that and think "Why? Isn't that unfaithful to the one you were with? What about their memory?". And then in a few years the new couple would pass on too...... in those cases I'd always see the H be buried next to his 1st wife, and the W being buried next to her 1st husband. And then I'd think.... "why did they M? To not be alone in their last years? What was their love like if they always knew they'd be next to the love of their life and not next to the new spouse", "What is this all about?". And now... with MLC and the potential for losing the love of your life...... what IS a next R? Is it like those old people? Is it just not wanting to be alone? Is it a replacement? What happens to the memory and the love you have/had for your MLC'er before they had MLC?
I hope I never find out, I don't want to know the answer (not 1st hand anyway).
-SS
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Is shutting the door to the idea of another love about loving our spouses or about fear?
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Milly, better the Devil you know than the Devil you don’t I suppose. I tried dating in earnest but decided the ones I met just did not measure up so I gave up on it. It is lonely but after the injustice of MLC it is a safer bet IMHO.
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Nah it’s a defensive mechanism in my case, I can’t face another failed relationship at my age. If I did meet someone I haven’t got the same prospects of long term I had decades ago so any relationship would be short term to me at the moment, perhaps I will change in the next few years who knows.
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Standing, there are various reasons why an old person would remarry, could be just for companionship, or for financial reasons. A lot of older people are on a fixed income, which is hard.
Besides I doubt their loved one would want them to be alone.
However I feel the same way you do. I am divorced but I have no desire to be with someone else.
It would just feel weird.
I didn't feel this way after my first divorce, but I was so much younger and still had kids at home.
Plus he was a womanizer so he didn't deserve my loyalty.
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I think it would be weird too, Standing. Sadly, we’re considered “old-school” now. But I’m fine with that.
I spent half of my life kissing frogs until I found my prince. I am really too old to kiss any more, and have no desire to anyway.
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Is shutting the door to the idea of another love about loving our spouses or about fear?
Neither for me.
I really enjoyed most of the old We but find it hard to visualise being part of a different We perhaps bc I am still working out what the post-trauma me looks like. But for sure, she isn't the same....so the old kind of We would be impossible for me now. Just haven't got to the point where I can imagine it, that's all.
And the 'devil you know' principle? Doesn't fit me either. The 'devil' version of my xh is a broken, cruel, deceitful person that I simply couldn't do any kind of We with that would feel good....just nothing close to who I chose to build a We with. And in the unlikely event that he popped up as something close to who he used to be, wanting a new We bc he suddenly remembered alll the good qualities of the old one? Well, unfortunately, I'm not the same now so that wouldn't work either.
When I get to the new Me, I'll trust that if i want a different kind of We, I will find one with a different kind of person. And none of that changes the reality that I valued much of the old We and still sometimes miss both the old We and the old Me before this life experience....but both are gone and can't be recreated imho. I don't always like it but it feels truthful to me....shame though bc some chap has lost out on a very good We-er lol.
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SS, I feel much the same as you. I find it difficult to consider being with somebody else. I know lots of people do it and I'm ok with that, but I can't figure out how it would work for me. I don't think it's fear. Maybe it's just a lack of vision.
Maybe I was too attached to my wife. My oldest brother has been married 5 times. I said to him about 6 months after BD that he must think I'm a little ridiculous for not kicking my wife to the curb and finding somebody else. He said he was jealous of my ability to love my wife so much. He said he's never been able to get close enough to anyone to be bothered about losing them. He told me that for him replacing a wife is a lot like replacing a car, fairly routine except for a little inconvenience until he gets used to the new model. :D
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That’s really sad about your bro, Brain.
Basically, he’s spent his whole life in search of his “lobster” (shameless “Friends” reference). Perhaps he never cared. My aunt is like that. She’s been widowed three times and has remarried each time. I’ve never thought she was really in love with each, just that they looked good on her arm and wore the right shoes.
Some people’s priorities are very, very screwed-up.
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MBIB:
Interesting how we all have different bonding styles.
I could never imagine having a style similar to your brothers.
I imagine most/(all?) of us are in the same position.
However, I guess your brother could never imagine having one like ours (as he said).
Sea
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I'm not sure I could be "Wife No. 5" to anyone. Wow
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If I got married again it would be three times lucky perhaps or people would think I like cake!
I think I will stick to my diet of hope and singleness as it’s less traumatic and I would probably pick another faulty one anyway.
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People like Trump have absolutely no business getting married over, and over again.
Their words aren’t worth a hill of beans. Just makes a mockery of the institution. And my XH is the latest to do so.
Get married at a courthouse, or don’t do it at all.
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KIT, wife #5 is history. He met a woman on the Internet, moved in with her for a few months, and then they moved to Florida. I was sorry to see it. I liked wife #5. I think she might have been the best of the bunch.
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SS,
Please start a new Question and Answer thread when you get time. :)
New thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11206.0