Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Midlife Crisis => Our Community => Topic started by: lostone on April 30, 2025, 05:06:35 AM
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I think by now I've read everything there is to read both on this site and I'm on the facebook group (but posting there anonymously). I really hope someone can support me I am so lost still. Here's the breakdown:
Here's the breakdown.
Married 2012 after 4 years. Two kids 13 and 10.
October 2023: he took on more family business responsibilities and told me he was burned out (was this BD? I didn't realise it at the time)
October 2023: Started EA with woman 15 years younger
December 2023: EA turned PA, lots of escapism, I was trying to support his burnout by encouraging him to go out and follow his dreams (mostly sport) but also doing things like hill sprints on his bike late at night, jumping in rivers at midnight, going to dance parties etc. I suspected affair pretty much immediately but didn't confront.
April 2024: daughter in health crisis, huge fight led to us deciding to work on marriage. unbeknownst to me he ended affair.
April - August 2024: I still suspected affair, he was still spending time with that social group and spending time with her although no more PA.
August 2024: I confronted about the affair, he lied multiple times.
August 2024: "I am profoundly unhappy" (I thought for a long time this was BD but now I think the earlier (November 2023) "I am burned out" was BD?)
September 2024: he finally admitted affair, said I never made him feel seen or appreciated.
September - November 2024: trying to reconcile, MC etc. I was still treating this like an affair / affair fog situation and insisting on No Contact with AP, trust rebuilding etc. He started unravelling and withdrawing. This really started after the kids found out about his affair. He was crying all the time. ILYBNILWY etc.
December 2024: I drew hard boundaries and insisted on bare minimums or therapeutic separation
January 2024: moved out. Agreed 3 month trial separation but could not agree on shared outcome (eg work towards reconciliation). I started researching MLC (not just affair) and suddenly everything made sense. Other clues: "I don't know who I am", "I don't know what my purpose in life is", "I am numb" relitigating long ago decisions (that predate us even meeting), monstering, unable to handle ANY responsibilities (any sort of house stuff is a huge trigger for him like the lawn or electricity repair stuff that needed doing) or obligations, no idea of who he is outside of roles and expectations etc. Seeing the kids a few hours a week only. Sleeping on floor in unfurnished apartment and being pleased that he has no stuff (it's all at the house) or people wanting things from him.
Recently: As the 3 month date approached, he started panicking again and as I went away with the kids over easter he checked into a burnout clinic. Before the burnout clinic he was leaning in again but after his time in the clinic, he's decided his "burnout" is because of our relationship and our marriage and he cannot see himself in a relationship with me again. He says he doesn't know if he loves me anymore or if he could love me again, he doesn't like who he is with me, and he had no business making a marriage vow when he was 33 because he didn't know who he was back then. Marriage vow now feels like an obligation not a choice. Today he told me he doesn't expect me to be faithful any more after the 3 months have expired and wants me to be happy and will not rest until I'm happy but cannot be happy in a relationship with me. Seems to me that if I meet someone else and move on that gives him a convenient "out". Absolutely WILL NOT say he wants a divorce and when asked why not he can't say - maybe will regret it, maybe the wrong choice. But agrees that living in limbo is no good for any of us.
Oh, also the burnout clinic apparently validated that his problems are all caused by our relationship and recommended that he should get on DATING APPS (wtf sort of advice is this?!) even after he had to confess everything that went wrong and his role in it (including the affair). He says he has no interest in that but maybe I do? (I don't).
I challenged his idea that the problem was our relationship and suggested that it relates to the way he interacts with anyone he's close to over a long period of time (he's definitely dismissive avoidant and always has been) and that it would surface in future relationships as well, he said, maybe he'll just never have another relationship again. (which seems to be more avoidance to me).
I don't know. I know that the person I married is still in there deep down, but I also know our marriage DID have problems and we had too much distance creep in between us after the kids were born. I am still convinced this in MLC and not just marital breakdown. He used to say he didn't believe in divorce. Now he says he didn't know who he was when he said that. Today I said I wished he would let me help him and he said he didn't think I could. I said, maybe I'm the only person who could, but you don't want to let me close to you. He said, maybe that's the crux of the whole thing. I just don't WANT to. But still WILL NOT say he wants a divorce. I asked him if it's because he wants me to do it for him and he said no. There's no version of him that knows what he wants and is scared to do it, he just doesn't know.
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Hi,
I am sorry that you needed to fund us but glad you did.
I have a meeting to go to in 10 minutes so this answer will be a bit brief.
1) You can NOT help him. this is HIS crisis and has NOTHING to do with your marriage, your kids, your relationship or you. It has EVERYTHING to do with his own lack of self-esteem and his lack of internal coping skills to deal with his own internal stress.
2) Conventional wisdom says the BD happens witht he ILYBINILWY speech usually but you may be right that the burn-out was sort of mini-BD
3) His affair is a symptom of his crisis and not the cause of it. However, the AD (Affair Down) is not better or sexier or smarter or richer or anything else more than you. She was just a willing participant in his crisis and is taking advantage of an unstable person. If he chooses to reestablish the affair or moves on to another one, you can grab yourself some popcorn, pull up a chair with a Coke and watch the forthcoming trainwreck, albeit in slow-motion.
4) First and foremost is that you need to take care of yourself and your kids. Get whatever financial information that you need to and get your finances locked down as far as legally possible. Mid-Lifers can spend money like water flowing over Niagara Falls. Get any sort of legal information you need as well. You do not have to initiate proceedings if you don't want to or need to but make sure that you have whatever information that you might need.
5) OW's (Other woman) are notorious Karen's usually unless they seriously have no idea that their "knight in shining armour" is actually married already (not impossible - Mid-Lifers are REALLY good at lying) so she gets NO rent-free space in hour head to live. She is just a symptom and is not worthy of your attention or your time.
UM
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Hi UM, thank you so much for replying.
I do know that I can't help him. I know your point 1 is right but I vacillate all the time between thinking this is just marital breakdown and I'm deluding myself about the MLC and could just apply myself to fixing the marriage. If the wound is relational, surely that means that the repair is relational? I know that doesn't work in MLC.
I've definitely locked down the financial situation and I've been talking to a lawyer since December. We also have a prenup. I feel financially secure and I've had good advice on this.
What I guess I really need to figure out is how to deal with this limbo and if this really is MLC or if it's just the end of my marriage. I've done the quiz and I've worked through the free course and I've read and posted in the facebook groups but he is resolute that our relationship has caused his "burnout" his word for what's happening to him and that while he cares for me and will "not rest if I'm not happy" (wtf) he "cannot" be in a relationship with me. He's trying to tell himself that Divorce is a good outcome for the kids too and outsourcing having decisions made for him to me meeting someone else which I loathe.
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Hello lostone. Sorry you find yourself here.
I don't personally believe that bomb drop has much significance outside of the person receiving in. I think of it like water coming to a boil. There is a transition point that we can debate about but there is also a clear before and after.
I'm just going to quote a bunch of horse$h!te. I'm certain you know it is horse$h!te but I also think having such hurtful comments come from someone you trust and value deeply does damage. I'm hoping to give you more confidence that these are impersonal and coming from an unstable person's fear and rationalization.
"said I never made him feel seen or appreciated"
"could not agree on shared outcome (eg work towards reconciliation)"
"relitigating long ago decisions (that predate us even meeting), monstering, unable to handle ANY responsibilities"
Basically every action you've described him taking.
I also want to say that the things he says are shockingly predictable. I myself received many of the same comments. Of course, "I love you but am not in love with you" is an all time classic, but others include: "I don't know who I am", "I'm numb", "I don't like who I am with you", "you should get a boyfriend". There are a couple of older threads with more of these.
Oh, also the burnout clinic apparently validated that his problems are all caused by our relationship and recommended that he should get on DATING APPS
Why do you believe this? I don't. There are so many hinges. Did he tell them honest, accurate, and sufficient information? Did he hear their response without filtering? Did he relay their response faithfully and without manipulation to you? Do you trust someone that sleeps on the floor so they don't have to decide which couch to get will be able to shuttle such emotionally charged information to you without spilling it all over themselves?
I know that the person I married is still in there deep down
How do you know this? I don't mean to imply they are an alien, but speaking just for myself, I am not the same person I was when I was 20. That might sound trite. Who we are is emergent and that while I still care for my ex, I don't believe it was helpful for me to hold on to the hope that she was going to travel back in time and be who I remembered her to be.
Again, sorry you find yourself here. This is a tough time but you will get through this. Take care of yourself and your children and the rest will take care of itself, eventually.
EDIT:
If the wound is relational, surely that means that the repair is relational?
I agree, the repair will also be relational. You are willing to show up but he is not. The relationship pops out of the interactions between two parties. It cannot exist if one party is not breathing life into it. It is out of your hands, unfortunately.
What I guess I really need to figure out is how to deal with this limbo and if this really is MLC or if it's just the end of my marriage.
I found that rational understanding was greatly overstated. Let's imagine you have this knowledge firmly in hand. Now what? You still have the emotional turmoil and the practical day-to-day of reconfiguring your habits. With time, whether or not it is a crisis or clarity on his part won't matter much. A rose by any other name, so to speak.
I've done the quiz and I've worked through the free course and I've read and posted in the facebook groups but he is resolute that our relationship has caused his "burnout" his word for what's happening to him and that while he cares for me and will "not rest if I'm not happy" (wtf) he "cannot" be in a relationship with me. He's trying to tell himself that Divorce is a good outcome for the kids too and outsourcing having decisions made for him to me meeting someone else which I loathe.
If you think of him like a small child instead of a fully grown adult man, it might help. He has no clue what he is talking about but the words sounds cinematic. The words sounds heroic. They don't portray a man leaving his family because of feelings inside of himself he's unable to sit with. He is spinning a fantasy because it provides escape. What is he running from? Who knows.
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Hello zartheit, thank you for replying to me. You are totally right it's horse$h!te. I know it is. I know it's not me and it's all his fear and shame and wounds talking. But I have also taken a hard look at my role in the distance that crept between us in our marriage and I played a role too.
You're also right about the burnout clinic's stance on the role of the relationship and the dating apps etc. Our MC has previously said to me multiple times that he's hearing whatever he wants to hear and cherry picking (other nonsense I have heard is that his mum was ok with his affair - absolutely nonsense). So it's probably something he's heard and twisted. However, he SAYS he does not want to go on dating apps and I kind of believe him because he has absolutely nothing to offer anyone and he knows it.
About who he is deep down - you're right, neither of us are the same people we were 20 years ago but my belief is that deep down we still have the same core. The same values. The same priorities in life. The same things that are important to us and the way we believe in treating people. Marriage for me was not about signing up for both of us being the same for the next 50-60 years, it was a recognition that we were in it together THROUGH the changes that we would both inevitably go through.
I know I will get through this. I deeply believe that if we do end up divorcing, I will be fine and I'll make sure the kids are fine. And he will be miserable, lonely, broken, regretful and alone.
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Hello Lostone,
Sorry you are in the maelstrom of someone else's crisis. But you do sound pretty clued up and stoical. Which is great.
I know it's not me and it's all his fear and shame and wounds talking. But I have also taken a hard look at my role in the distance that crept between us in our marriage and I played a role too.
In all relationships, friends, family included, sometimes a little distance creeps in. We are preoccupied with something or other - work, kids, illness etc. It's normal. At some point, we notice we have been a bit neglectful or the other person flags it with us, and we seek to correct it. But for some people, they see the distance as a portent of abandonment - which they have a pathological fear of. They don't bring it up directly, because they are terrified of rejection (the sibling of abandonment). I believe, much of this is subconscious, a way of being. They people please to avoid rejection. If they think they will be rejected - they reject. They start to sort of dismantle the other person in their minds (she never really got me/supported me/etc), they basically set in motion the thing they fear the most. And at the same time, they seek some building up. some ego boosts from others - this is when they are open to flattery of another who will blow smoke up their arse (and cause havoc). I personally think that this is what the re-writing of history is all about in this type of crisis. I also suspect that, yes, there can be big triggers into crisis - like bereavement, or illness, but a co-trigger is the perceived unavailability of the spouse. Of course, at the root of this, there's immaturity in how they communicate. Their coping skills are pretty poor (likely you did a lot of the big C coping in your relationship?) and they don't express their needs directly. That's why most of us here were blindsided.
You'll hear this again and again. But it is not you. Although you may reflect that you were a bit of a Fixer in the relationship, you were probably also a pretty good spouse. You likely created a safe and emotionally stable space for your husband. But when the load got too much for him, and you were a bit distracted, instead of asking for help from you, he cracked. And he won't just click back into shape alas. Someone who is emotionally fragile and un-resilient before they caused so much damage and harm to others, are not going to be able to fix things quickly. This is his journey. To mature and work out who he is and what his values really are.
(((hugs)))KD
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I agree with the others that, like most of us here, you were probably a pretty good spouse with the normal human imperfections. The thing to watch out for imho is getting sucked too deep into some of the BS. Most of us do for a while; tbh it’s a normal reaction to a shocking event to try to work out what caused it, what it is and how much we were part of that cause. Why do most of us do that? Imho couple of main reasons….trauma triggers a bit of our brain to think that if we can figure it out, we can fix it…or at least control it in some way. Our brains are hard-wired to do that; it is designed to help us survive by figuring out if something is a tiger in the undergrowth or just a shadow lol. The second reason is that our spouses almost always look for someone else to blame bc it’s easier psychologically than admitting to being a crappy kind of human who did some very bad things. So they tend to engage in quite a lot of deceit, gaslighting and false equivalence to justify their actions. Oh, and some sterling levels of self-pity too.
I would humbly suggest that you do everything you can to stay away from that sandpit. Or climb out when you fall in. (Bc this experience is a heartbreaking life-altering mindf**k so most of us do fall in a few times…that’s ok, just keep finding ways to climb out, it gets easier) Why? Bc it isn’t your sandpit. Bc it can make you feel like you are losing your mind. Bc probably the most important adult in your life just metaphorically burned your house down and you don’t need the extra grief of beating yourself up for once buying matches for a birthday cake.
When you are not in the sandpit, it will be easier to see that the ‘big’ question which brought you here of MLC vs marital breakdown does not matter as much as it feels like it does right now. Bc the factual effect is much the same regardless. Your h has - at a bare minimum based on what you currently know - decided that his marriage and fatherhood are no longer what scratches his existential itch. He has had an affair, lied for a long time and is barely visible as a parent. He has decided that his feelings and needs are more important than anyone else’s feelings or needs. And that he doesn’t even have to adult enough to have a plan even if that means leaving you and your kids spinning in the wind. I am so sorry, but based on those facts, regardless of the cause, you have nothing to work with currently.
So, what do you do?
You find ways to accept the facts as you see them and work from that, much as you are doing. (And kudos to you for that bc that’s no mean feat in itself)
You keep reminding yourself over and over that your h is now a proven liar and no longer worthy of your unsubstantiated trust. Which means you stop believing ANYTHING he says unless it is independently verified. What his therapy told him? Blah blah. His opinion of you? Blah blah. How he feels about anything at all? Blah blah. Whether he will actually show up on Friday to see the kids? Blah blah. Any promise or agreement or plan he commits to that involves you, your finances or your kids? Blah blah. Again it takes most of us a while to get the hang of this partly bc it’s not a normal way to interact with others, partly bc we want to believe them, partly bc we have to teach ourselves to kind of unhook our mental boat from theirs. You may find, as some here have done, that reducing the amount of conversation or interaction you have will help you to focus on the boat containing you and your kids. And tbh that’s a big enough boat to keep you busy, right?
If it is an MLC thing - and time will tell - you will probably see his behaviour become worse, more bonkers and more crazy making. You should prepare for more hidden stuff to come out…more affairs, return of OW, other weird stuff etc etc….bc that seems to be how it goes with these folks. And you should do everything you can to protect you and your kids financially bc a) see above about lying…it’s rare that these folks trash their life commitments to people who trusted them without also breaking other commitments and b) folks in an MLC can get wildly extravagant in that quest for a magic ‘new happy’. And it hardly ever seems to include the grown up stuff like bills or paperwork or saving for college funds!
Right now, I get the sense that you are torn between some reasonable anger and some concern about his wellbeing. And that’s normal too. But every moment you are thinking about him is a moment taken away from figuring out how to sail your own boat through the life storm he has created for you and your kids. You gave him a chance to approach the situation like an adult who wanted to prioritise his family…..sadly, that was not the choice he has made. And I am so sorry. Might that change? Maybe….but usually we humans are best served by dealing with the reality we have today and planning accordingly rather than an unknown future reality. What I can promise is that you will learn through trial and error what works best for you and your kids, and that there is a good life for you on the other side. And that as you learn through trial and error, you will not always feel how you feel today and that some of your window on him and what works for you will also evolve.
And that we will always be here when you need advice or just to feel heard 😜
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I'm so sorry that you're here. I just want to re-iterate from everyone above that your MLCer can no longer be trusted. They will lie, cheat, gaslight, deceive and more. You may find a new unpleasant thing about what they have done/are doing under every rock. I completely understand your desire to protect your H's wellbeing. After all, we have loved these men for decades and it is a role we are used to playing. But it it so important to put yourself and your children first. They are extremely selfish and destructive during this time. They need to go on this journey by themselves and figure it all out. Protect your home, your finances and your heart. Prepare to go at it alone.
I think zartheit makes an excellent point-where he says this:
If you think of him like a small child instead of a fully grown adult man, it might help. He has no clue what he is talking about but the words sounds cinematic. The words sounds heroic. They don't portray a man leaving his family because of feelings inside of himself he's unable to sit with. He is spinning a fantasy because it provides escape. What is he running from? Who knows.
My H made a whole delusional fantasy in his head and had it running for years while he also led a "normal" life with me. He was chasing his "true destiny" his "highest self"- spirit guides from beyond told him this. They need a story to explain to themselves why they are a good person but yet are cheating/lying/leaving their spouse and kids. So it wasn't that he was your regular ole cheating/lying H...it was so much more. You never really know what is going on with them or what demons they are running from.
Finally, I want to highlight what Treasur said here:
You find ways to accept the facts as you see them and work from that, much as you are doing. (And kudos to you for that bc that’s no mean feat in itself)
You keep reminding yourself over and over that your h is now a proven liar and no longer worthy of your unsubstantiated trust. Which means you stop believing ANYTHING he says unless it is independently verified.
Trust what you can verify, your intuition and yourself. This is a long and difficult journey.
B
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So sorry you’re here, your story is very familiar to all of us.
Also what type of ‘burnout clinic’ recommends dating apps? I would think any therapy would involve working on himself , working on the marriage, doing some type of healing. It’s bad enough you have to deal with MLC but him getting that advice just adds salt to the wound.
Again sorry you’re here, but you found a good place, fortunately (or unfortunately) there are many people here who can guide you through this.
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I re-read your posts and think I might have missed something important to you, the issue of being in limbo and your take on his thoughts about breaking that limbo.
It sounds as if right now that’s an important issue for you?
Most of us here found that limbo has three parts - emotional, mental and practical. And that it usually ends for you when you decide you are ready to end it. And each of us comes to that in our own way and timing. I don’t know why but quite a lot of us here experienced spouses who said they no longer wanted to be married to us, indeed behaved as if they were no longer married, but were also seemingly content to live in a kind of limbo for months, sometimes years.
How much do you feel in limbo right now? And about what?
How easy or difficult are you finding it?
Is there a cost or big risk to it?
What do you feel might shift you out of it? Or something that you feel you need to know bc if you did that would help?
What would be a marker of ending any limbo for you, emotional, mental and/or practical?
I ask these questions - and you’re under no obligation to answer them here - to encourage you to think less about what your h says or you think he means, and more about what your h says feel YOU need and want given the situation you find yourself in. There are no ‘right’ answers….its a very individual thing… but there probably are answers that are more ‘right’ for you than others.
The key at heart is unhooking your path forward from your h’s indecision, behaviour or wants. He may still stay lost, but you do not have to be.
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Hello lost one and welcome to Hero's Spouse.
I really hope someone can support me I am so lost still.
You have come to a very good place for support and understanding from others who were just as lost and confused as you are. This site, and the people I have met here both virtually and in real life really helped me heal and accept that MLC is a real thing, not just about buying a "red sports car"...the stories are eerily familiar. Not many people in the outside world understand, and they just want you to move on..people who love you want you to be safe and happy...."he doesn't deserve you"......they will say.
As you have read a great deal already, you have also recognized "I know that the person I married is still in there deep down"...I think we hope this to be true and for those whose marriages do reconcile, that seems to be what their experience is...but, for all the similarities, each of our stories are different.
I liked what thissucks said "Trust what you can verify, your intuition and yourself. This is a long and difficult journey."
The hurt, the pain, the devastation both to us and our families is heartbreaking. When I found a therapist that was gifted in treating trauma and PTSD, when I realized that this was indeed a horrific trauma to me and our daughter, I started on the very long and slow road to recovery.
My belief is that families are vital to preserve. Thus, he continues to participate in our family life and is welcomed to be a part of our family. There is no right or wrong answer here and at times, it was terribly painful to have contact with him, but whenever I reevaluate what is best for this family, it was to help maintain ties, and to help our daughter to continue to have a relationship with her dad...even though for many years he disappeared from her life as well.
But each person will discover for themselves..not because others tell them to...but because they will know what is best for them and their kids.
There is still love for the man I was married to for 32 years..and have been separated from for almost 16 years. But there are no expectations of anything from him.
Take really good care of yourself. Physically, exercise and have some stress releasing methods such as yoga or meditation. Find new interests, new friends..be open to the world and all that it has to offer. Travel to new places if you can afford to. Let him be. At some point you will realize that talking to him is useless, he will change his mind from one moment to the next and often will not remember what he said to you a day ago.
As for the burn out "professionals"...we went to marriage therapy twice...our "therapist' told my husband on the second visit, that it was time for him to get in touch with his "bad side"..I kid you not!
One of the best things my present amazing therapist suggested was that I can change my mind from one day to the next whether I wish to see him or not. There need not be something carved in stone that says I can never see or talk to him again. Indeed, he has consistently seeked me out, recently sharing something that astonished me concerning how much he trusts me....I don't reciprocate that trust in him...but then a sad reality of being an LBS is that I no longer trust people..and that is probably a permanent thing for me.
My BD was in 2009. It took me a very long time to accept and to get "better" because the shock was so great and none of it made sense...but you will look back, 3 months, 6 months, a year and you will be able to see how far you have come. Be patient and kind with yourself.
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Hey KD, thank you so much for writing to me.
At some point, we notice we have been a bit neglectful or the other person flags it with us, and we seek to correct it. But for some people, they see the distance as a portent of abandonment - which they have a pathological fear of. They don't bring it up directly, because they are terrified of rejection (the sibling of abandonment).
This is interesting, because he DID bring it up with me. We were in a negative cycle whereby he was cold, critical, and dismissive towards me (I mean to the point where I would say something to him and he wouldn't even acknowledge I had spoken), yet he was saying we should spend more time together. I was the avoidant one by then, because honestly it wasn't that much fun spending time with him only to be emotionally rejected.
Of course, at the root of this, there's immaturity in how they communicate. Their coping skills are pretty poor (likely you did a lot of the big C coping in your relationship?) and they don't express their needs directly. That's why most of us here were blindsided.
This however is definitely the case. He is super dismissive avoidant - to the point where I would raise issues in the relationship for years and years and he would deflect, defend, or minimise. Nothing EVER got resolved. Like we would fight and then withdraw and then pretend nothing had happened. So I just gave up raising stuff with him. I made my peace with all this, focused on the things I could control, found joy and made happiness. He .. never told me he was so unhappy (just things like "we're getting a bit distant" until he had his full blown affair. Then he got smoke blown up his ass and told how great he was and that was addictive.
However - and this is the weird thing - there is still so much care and respect between us. He says ILYBNILWY but also "I won't rest while you're unhappy". He says I'm wonderful, special, kind etc. And he's suddenly started actually saying sorry for all the above. (He was ALWAYS a "I'm sorry you feel that way" apologiser). He did monster briefly but it was never as bad as others I've read about. I mean now he's monstering in a way I suppose with his "our relationship caused my burnout" which is a convenient narrative to deflect responsibility away from himself. But he can't seem to say a single bad thing about me.
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Hey Treasur, Thank you for replying. I have thought a lot about a few things that you said.
The thing to watch out for imho is getting sucked too deep into some of the BS. Most of us do for a while; tbh it’s a normal reaction to a shocking event to try to work out what caused it, what it is and how much we were part of that cause. Why do most of us do that? Imho couple of main reasons….trauma triggers a bit of our brain to think that if we can figure it out, we can fix it…or at least control it in some way. The second reason is that our spouses almost always look for someone else to blame bc it’s easier psychologically than admitting to being a crappy kind of human who did some very bad things. So they tend to engage in quite a lot of deceit, gaslighting and false equivalence to justify their actions. Oh, and some sterling levels of self-pity too.
Yeah. I definitely recognise myself in this. I took on WAY too much blame. WAY too much. When this all first started happening, I was looking at it through the lens of just the affair and affair fog. I dissected my role in the distance that crept between us. What did I contribute to his narrative of never being good enough? How did I make him feel so unseen and unappreciated ? Yes, it's true that I probably took him for granted, and I worked to change that. Because it's genuinely not how I wanted to treat my spouse. I wanted to treat him how I thought he deserved to be treated as my partner of many years. So I listened to all the things he was telling me and I worked hard to correct them. But I also had needs (related to his cheating), and he couldn't meet those. He would just shrug and say things like, "I guess I'm not as good a person as you" or slide back into justification and blame shifting and call me "too intense". Oh, it seems so obvious now. But at the time I was trying to save my family. I'm angry - with myself mostly - in hindsight. I'm a lot more detached now than I was in those early months.
When you are not in the sandpit, it will be easier to see that the ‘big’ question which brought you here of MLC vs marital breakdown does not matter as much as it feels like it does right now. Bc the factual effect is much the same regardless. Your h has - at a bare minimum based on what you currently know - decided that his marriage and fatherhood are no longer what scratches his existential itch. He has had an affair, lied for a long time and is barely visible as a parent. He has decided that his feelings and needs are more important than anyone else’s feelings or needs. And that he doesn’t even have to adult enough to have a plan even if that means leaving you and your kids spinning in the wind. I am so sorry, but based on those facts, regardless of the cause, you have nothing to work with currently.
This is the bit that has been sitting with me since I read your reply. You're absolutely right. What does it matter what the cause is or the label when this is the reality of the situation I'm in NOW. This is radical acceptance, right? Things just are the way they are and whatever psychological analysis I have about it ... what does that change? He is NOT interested in reading anything about relationships or psychology because he's a unique unicorn where nothing applies to him ::)
You keep reminding yourself over and over that your h is now a proven liar and no longer worthy of your unsubstantiated trust. Which means you stop believing ANYTHING he says unless it is independently verified. What his therapy told him? Blah blah. His opinion of you? Blah blah. How he feels about anything at all? Blah blah. Whether he will actually show up on Friday to see the kids? Blah blah. Any promise or agreement or plan he commits to that involves you, your finances or your kids? Blah blah.
Yep, I know you're right. He actually looked me in the eyes last week and answered something I asked him in a way that made me think he was lying - and it was completely unnecessary. He's shown himself to be able to lie to my face over and over. Blah blah is the absolute right way to think about it. I think he's lying to himself too though. This burnout clinic that apparently told him to go on dating apps? That seems ridiculous to me so I think it's another distortion of the truth he's tangled up in.
But every moment you are thinking about him is a moment taken away from figuring out how to sail your own boat through the life storm he has created for you and your kids. You gave him a chance to approach the situation like an adult who wanted to prioritise his family…..sadly, that was not the choice he has made.
Yeah this is 100% it. I need this $h!te to not live rent free in my head anymore. I'm scrolling the facebook groups, reddit, this site, trying to find my own experiences reflected back of me. I think it's a normal phase when you're cast into such a storm but it's time to start working through it and reducing it. I'm focusing on the kids - honestly we are closer than ever before and I know how much they are aware of me being here for them. My 13 year old thanked me this morning for "everything I am doing" (she's incredibly emotionally able, unlike her dad). We are creating new rituals, new memories. The thing is I have to continue to coparent with this person, and that makes it so hard to detach completely. I kind of wish I would never have to see or talk to him ever again, but we have years ahead of working together for our kids. While he's only seeing them a few hours a week and not (yet) able to have them for sleepovers, ultimately we are going to end up with some sort of shared custody arrangement (which breaks my heart because I don't want to see them any less). Our MC (who we don't see anymore) is skeptical that he'll actually step up and arrange any sort of routine. So far it's been completely ad hoc (emails "can I see the kids on Saturday") things like that. I kind of wish it stays like that - as annoying as it is - because I don't want to lose time with my babies.
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They need a story to explain to themselves why they are a good person but yet are cheating/lying/leaving their spouse and kids.
Hey B. This is a really useful line just on its own - to remind myself that the story is a STORY. I think he's suffering from identity collapse from the way he's behaved so he's writing a story in his head to tell himself he's still a good person. The truth is - maybe he's not actually a good person. Like maybe I need to let go of my idea about who he is/was and just embrace who he is NOW. He's a serial cheat, he can flat out lie to me, his kids, his family, and he's abandoned me and the kids. That's who he is right now. Thank you :)
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Oof. These are difficult questions.
How much do you feel in limbo right now? And about what?
How easy or difficult are you finding it?
Is there a cost or big risk to it?
What do you feel might shift you out of it? Or something that you feel you need to know bc if you did that would help?
What would be a marker of ending any limbo for you, emotional, mental and/or practical?
- I guess I feel mostly in limbo about where we stand. We are still legally married. We have not yet done the requisite legal stuff to indicate we are officially separated. Nobody has officially changed address. The last time I asked him what he was telling people, it was "I am not living at home anymore". Are we broken up? Are we officially separated? Who knows. This is also impacting the kids. Because when he moved out it was, "I am taking some space to find out why I am so unhappy".
- Difficult. I am a person who craves certainty anyway but like - friends don't know, neighbours don't know. Some family don't even know. Kids say to me, are you and dad getting a divorce? Can you just decide?
- No, not financially or legally. I have advice on both of those matters and I feel well protected. At the moment I am in the family home with the kids, and our financial arrangements are still as they always were. I am pretty secure on all this. In the case of divorce, I would be able to probably negotiate a way to stay here with the kids, or be able to buy something smaller further out from the city, both of which are fine options.
- I guess in some way it would be easier if he would just finally say, "we are getting a divorce". But he won't say that. I don't really want him to - I want him to come to his senses and fight for his family (haha I know this is not going to happen). But if he would just say "it's over" at least the limbo would end. Yet I don't want to be the one who does that - mostly because I want him to own the decision himself. He is the one who has done all this. If he wants out, he needs to be big enough to call it himself.
- The other question I have is about all his STUFF. Like his clothes are still in the drawers in the room. His home study is still intact. He basically left with enough clothes for a week and his laptop. Now this means he has access to the house all the time of course. But do I keep his stuff in the bedroom or move it out? Why should I have to go and find packing boxes and pack all his clothes up for him? And what does it signal to him if I do that?
I feel like we are in a game of chicken sometimes and I hate it.
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Hello xyzcf and thank you for replying to me. Gosh you've come such a long way. I'm so grateful for all the wisdom of people who are replying to me here.
My belief is that families are vital to preserve. Thus, he continues to participate in our family life and is welcomed to be a part of our family. There is no right or wrong answer here and at times, it was terribly painful to have contact with him, but whenever I reevaluate what is best for this family, it was to help maintain ties, and to help our daughter to continue to have a relationship with her dad...even though for many years he disappeared from her life as well.
But each person will discover for themselves..not because others tell them to...but because they will know what is best for them and their kids.
Yeah I am struggling with this so much. He wants to continue to do things "as a family" but my instinct on this is no - you didn't want your family anymore. It feels like cake eating to me. It's free emotional labour from me. I'm enabling it every time he asks to see the kids - even if it's inconvenient I always make it possible and encourage them to see him. I tell them in their grief how much he loves and will always be there for them. But I cannot spend time together as a unit of four. I just can't.
Take really good care of yourself. Physically, exercise and have some stress releasing methods such as yoga or meditation. Find new interests, new friends..be open to the world and all that it has to offer. Travel to new places if you can afford to. Let him be. At some point you will realize that talking to him is useless, he will change his mind from one moment to the next and often will not remember what he said to you a day ago.
This I have been getting better at. I have a very tight knit community around my gym and I go 5 days a week and always train with the same people. We've also started other sporty things - rock climbing, acrobat class, handstand class. I started a weekly shared meal with some people in my community. The kids are being shown that we are holding space for grief and acknowledging it but we are also living our lives and making new rituals and memories together. The kids and I went away together over Easter and had a great time. We are close.
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Hey KD, thank you so much for writing to me.
At some point, we notice we have been a bit neglectful or the other person flags it with us, and we seek to correct it. But for some people, they see the distance as a portent of abandonment - which they have a pathological fear of. They don't bring it up directly, because they are terrified of rejection (the sibling of abandonment).
This is interesting, because he DID bring it up with me. We were in a negative cycle whereby he was cold, critical, and dismissive towards me (I mean to the point where I would say something to him and he wouldn't even acknowledge I had spoken), yet he was saying we should spend more time together. I was the avoidant one by then, because honestly it wasn't that much fun spending time with him only to be emotionally rejected.
So, he brought it up by being cold, critical and dismissive? Or he brought it up and then became these things? Neither are particularly mature or productive. And I would say, another indirect way of communicating that catalyses abandonment - because your your natural response was to retreat. My stbxH became the same about 6 months before BD. I remember saying to him at breakfast 'if you are not going to talk, do you mind if I read the news?'. During that time, it felt to me that he managed to spoil, what would previously have been a nice day together, with criticism and mood. I think this was depression, yes. Also a sort of attention thing - the indirect 'cry for help' BUT also, for sure he was already dismantling me as his dearest, as he had a fun buddy EA. I like you, started to back away from him, because he was a like a dark cloud a lot of the time.
You ask later, in response to Treasur, in the context of limbo, what to do about his 'stuff' and your wish for him to initiate things. The wishing him to do one thing or another is probably the thing you need to let go of TBH. A good approach for me was to always ask myself 'am I doing this to help myself'. I just focused on what action and outcome supported my healing. So, yeah, I too didn't think it was down to me to pack up his stuff, but he used said stuff to pop in all the time, to pick it up, one sock at a bloody time. I was on edge all the time and knew that - packing it up = peace. I was very strategic like that. I have never been mean to my stbxH, and, like yours, he is (in MLC-land) not a disrespectful to me, I just know I can no longer rely on him for anything. Accepting that early and doing things solely for you, and the kids, is really helpful.
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Yeah I am struggling with this so much. He wants to continue to do things "as a family" but my instinct on this is no - you didn't want your family anymore. It feels like cake eating to me. It's free emotional labour from me. I'm enabling it every time he asks to see the kids - even if it's inconvenient I always make it possible and encourage them to see him. I tell them in their grief how much he loves and will always be there for them. But I cannot spend time together as a unit of four. I just can't.
Oh boy.... Been there, done that. got the T-Shirt - to the point where MLCxW would always call be to come fix something in her apartment or help her with her dog or whatever. ..... It took a slap in the head form a well-meaning person for me to realize I was being used . I had been fired form the position of caretaker and no longer needed to be available at her beck and call. Naturally, if it concerned my/our kids, I would be there and take care of things but for the every day, mundane tasks, she fired me form that position so why should I continue to our effort into a bottomless black hole? She did NOT take kindly to the fact that she then had what she said she wanted - the chance to prove she could do it alone......
As far as "playing happy family"I did that until I just couldn't any more. I had a discussion with my daughter and her therapist about that too because my daughter complained that I should be able to throw a joint birthday party for her (again) and she couldn't understand why I wouldn't. I had to explain that 1) I am in a relationship with someone else now, 2) mom wanted out of the relationship in the first place, and 3) it was not healthy for her (my D or myself to go play pretend that everything was all fine and happy when it wasn't. D's therapist backed me up on that as well and said that the reality of the situation is that mom and dad are no longer together and that means the family unit has changed. Some people can do that and it doesn't appear to affect them. I am not one of them. Trying to coordinate something with my ex and then spending significant amounts of time together putting on a show is detrimental to my own mental and emotional well-being. I need to be mentally and emotionally stable and happy in order to support my kids.....
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Thank you for sharing your current thoughts about those difficult questions, my friend. And I emphasise CURRENT bc they are just that. As you sit with them, you may find they evolve into different shapes and that’s ok. That’s completely normal when you are surrounded by such a lot of uncertainty - in him, in the situation, in you. You are very early on in this whirlwind and I hope it helps to know we get it.
I’d also bet money I don’t have that your honesty in sharing those first thoughts will help others reading along, many of whom are not yet ready to post here but are struggling with very similar conundrums.
I agree with KayDee - in the spirit of holding up a mirror from over here in the cheap seats without judgment just to encourage you to see your own thinking as you try to figure stuff out - that the centre of some of your thinking is about a kind of waiting for him. Waiting for him to own his actions and some of the effects. Waiting for him to see what he is risking and change course. Waiting for him to call it a name that makes sense. Waiting for him to act or feel or think something other than what he seems to be doing, feeling, thinking or not thinking currently.
And of course you can’t in reality control any of that. Not one jot of it. It will happen with and in him regardless of what you do or how long you wait. Or not. That’s a tough pill to swallow for all of us. It’s an outside thing for you, like the weather, isn’t it? And I’m sure it feels a million miles away from normal.
As KayDee said, the next step in your own thinking will probably be a bit like the decision to pack an umbrella or not, to start to see glimmers of what works best for you right now regardless. And it sounds as if you have done glimmers of that - your instinct to say no thank you to collective ‘family’ time for instance bc that doesn’t feel right for you. And it’s ok to keep adding ‘at the moment’ or ‘as things currently stand’ to your choices bc it’s ok to accept that your choices may evolve and change and that you have the right to change ypur mind.
For most of us, surviving this experience tends to force us to have to dig quite deeply into our own gut instincts, our own values, how we take care of our own most pressing needs and wellbeing, and why we think how we think. Never heard anyone say that’s a quick or easy process lol.
So, for instance, if you decide to call yourself ‘separated’ bc it is helpful, do so. If you find that you need to tell people who care about you bc you need their love and support, do so. If you feel better with his stuff out of your bedroom/house, do so. And do whatever works for you entirely regardless of what you think he may think, do or say. Bc tbh the reality is that he has done many things unilaterally without regard for what you might think, do or say….thats the reality of someone severing their boat from ypur boat, isn’t it?
But we do all understand that it takes a while to figure this stuff out bit by bit.
A story in case it’s helpful….years on, I have absolutely no idea at all if my former h ‘owned’ anything at all. He did eventually file for divorce bc ow unbeknownst to me wanted to plan her wedding 😜 Having said that, even having filed, he was consistently unclear and unreliable about doing anything much - from dealing with legal paperwork to packing up his stuff to signing paperwork to sell the house. I have absolutely no idea at all what he was thinking or feeling, then or now. What I do know is what the behaviour looked like, regardless of his words which often said something different. What it looked like was someone who blew everything up and then assumed I would pack up the rubble neatly. And that in reality he had little or no concern for me or my family or our friends or stuff or house or old life at all. I chose eventually to do the lions share of rubble clearance truthfully. Not bc I wanted or expected him to ‘own’ anything in the way I thought he should. Or even expect that he would treat me with more respect and fairness bc I did (plot spoiler - he didn’t lol). But bc I reached a point where I respected myself and the marriage I’d had enough that it made sense to me to pack his belongings with care (and we had a loft full, he was a bit of a sentimental hoarder even of childhood stuff). But also bc I reached a point where I did not, could not, live in the rubble anymore. So I did what I did bc of what I needed, and I went about it in the way that I did bc of the kind of person I am and what I value. Nothing to do with him at all. And presumably he did what he did in the way that he did it bc of his needs and the kind of person he is. If I had waited for clarity or ownership or responsibility from him - and I did for a bit over a year, I think, which looking back was too long bc it caused more damage to me and my life, it made we weaker rather than stronger, more confused not less, but hey ho I did the best I could at the time! But if I had ‘waited’ for him? I could have still been waiting 8 years on.
In my book - and with a little time it got easier to see my own pages - someone who cared about me in any significant way, someone who valued my well-being and life and happiness even a bit, would not have been capable of treating me in the way my xh treated me. I certainly could not have done to him what he did to me if the situations were reversed. I genuinely don’t know if my xh ever loved me in the way I thought he did, the way I felt he did, the way it looked like he did to everyone who knew us. But what I did come to think was that nothing post BD had anything in it from him that I would call love. Or even like tbh. And that hurt a lot, big old tough pill to swallow down.
But it DID matter to me, and does now, that I retained some part of who I am on the way I responded. Regardless of what he thought or thinks now. And I don’t have to explain or justify that to anyone but myself.
And neither do you.
So it’s ok to figure it out in small steps, through trial and error, and by teaching yourself over and over to say ‘what is best for me and why/how?’ And then remind yourself that this is good enough right now x
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It's in my nature to try and "understand" the craziness of all of this...eventually liking Ursa's phrase "trying to understand MLC is like trying to taste the color green".
You mentioned radical acceptance and that is key...we did not cause this, we cannot fix it. This is their journey and we and our children suffer the damage from it.
My husband also did not take any of his things. This is quite common it seems..perhaps because they want a new life without the "memories", I don't know. You will know when it's time for you to pack up his stuff. I didn't want to do it, did not feel it was my "job" and I have a large house so I moved things out of sight and eventually got rid of his clothes and stuff.
I was able to keep the house which was really a good decision but not everyone will have the financial resources to do that, and some LBSers want a fresh start.
There are different views on the MLCer's ability to comprehend what their actions are and how they affect us. I think the concept that they revert to a younger version of themselves, someone of an age before they ever met us, fits what I have observed. You will read various "theories" but it really is a multifaceted disorder, in my opinion, without a specific cause that is identifiable..although there are several clues when I look back at his life.
Glad that you have a good group at the gym. I find exercise really helpful and the friendships I have made there and in other groups I belong to. My second therapist also was enormously helpful to my healing.
As I said previously, each person's situation is different.....listen to your inner voice and find what is right for you and your children.
My husband also didn't "monster" at me, I didn't see him for a long time which I needed. I did not want his "being" to have the control over my well being that it did after BD...when I was fearful of seeing him and I would go into fight/flight/freeze mode. I wanted to be able to be in contact and not have it send me down a rabbit hole...and so we do have this relationship ...I couldn't see never again seeing him, after spending so many years together and my daughter and I agreed that he can be included..as she recently stated "he's a lost soul".
You sound like you have thought out and taken care of financial safety and your own well being. Glad that you found HS to share in your story and get some support for an end to a life that makes no sense, to me at least.
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I get the not wanting to be the one to make the first legal move nor be the one to pack up his stuff. After some time I realized that it made sense for me to file for divorce as he had been the one to move out so my filing was not really making the first move. I know, it seems that you think he should do it but remember these are the conflict avoidant and if you wait for them to do it, you may be in limbo for a very long time- mine already had a dating profile but had left almost all his stuff behind. I went from room to room and packed it all up. He happened to work at a site on my way to work. I would put a box or two by his car. Yes, it took energy for me to pack BUT, then I could walk around the house and not have triggers just about everywhere. I diffused anger energy in the packing but made sure that all of his stuff transferred in good shape. My motto was to have no regrets on my part. That said, I completely understand how someone could throw all their stuff on the lawn and set fire to it ;). Don´t cut off your nose to spite your face is a useful motto to live by. Go with Kay Dee´s do what is best for you advice.
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Such wonderful wisdom on here. I don't think I can add anything that has not already been said more beautifully.
I will say that I'm so sorry you're in this situation lostone, so much of what you say resonates with me. I am also struggling with the 'family' stuff - and to be honest, we are going on a family vacation to a resort we've gone to every year since they were born this summer for 2 weeks (I'm bringing my sister along) bc the kids (8 and 11) are begging for it - but it will 100 percent be the last.
It is him asking you to do the emotional lifting to keep the family together, and I've done that for nearly 2 years now, and it has not accomplished anything apart from eat away at my own healing and sanity. Truthfully, I had hoped it might help keep him anchored to our family, pay attention to the kids, see what he was missing, give up his AP, want to be involved in their lives (if not mine), but all of my efforts - sending videos of the kids, suggesting calls to him, allowing him to stay here with us for weeks at a time and sleep in the guest room, it did not work. He is farther away from acting in any way, shape or form like a dad than EVER. It's still hugely painful for me, and has been a big step, letting go of any hope of him being a parent to our children, the ones we were both so desperate to conceive, the ones whose birth made him the happiest man alive at one time. I will never understand this.
But one thing that I read throughout all this wisdom, and have read since my own BD in 2023 is that you have to focus on you and your kids only, you have to matter more than he does now, (when you love your spouse you always put him first and it's a hard habit to break), and you can change your mind anytime. Sometimes I don't speak to him for weeks because I need that space and other times I am able to talk to him for 20 mins or so on a video call about logistics and important details ab family and it's warm and I feel encouraged. (temporarily, it's always temporary)
But do what feels right for you at that time. It sounds like you are doing all the right things!
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I just wanted to check back in and thank everyone again who has taken the time to reply to me. I've been sitting deeply with all your advice.
I think I understand what radical acceptance is for me more and more in the 10 days or so since I posted here. I don't want to move ahead too fast or fool myself that I'm further along than I am. But I've been thinking a lot about something a friend once said to me: 'when people show you who they are, believe them'. So even if the words coming out of his mouth are "I'm not sure", the behaviour is "definitely not". That's all I have to work with because that is the reality on the ground.
I am remarkably resilient and emotionally aware I think. I've done a LOT of healing work on myself the last 8-9 months. Maybe it's all been working towards acceptance. Acceptance isn't agreement, or forgiving, or even necessarily being at peace (yet). But it means understanding what I'm working with and meeting it where it is.
There are also a lot of old friends coming out of the woodwork and telling me that they always thought there was something off, but that they focused on the good qualities of my husband because I had chosen him as my person. However, now they are saying that yes, they can see how he has come to the place he is. I am confronting unlearning and unwinding the last 17 years of my life and looking at it with fresh eyes. How much did I accept as normal. How many times I was told that he had these problems with nobody else in the world and therefore the problem was mine (and now people are telling me yes they absolutely did have these problems with him but didn't tell him because they just weren't that close). How many times did he say something that casually normalised unkindness - even towards the kids - where I am now thinking, hang on, that's not how I want to engage with the kids.
Maybe radical acceptance ALSO means opening up my eyes clearly to the past and realising it was not quite as I had talked myself into believing this whole time.
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Maybe radical acceptance ALSO means opening up my eyes clearly to the past and realising it was not quite as I had talked myself into believing this whole time.
This is also a stage that we, as the LBS (Living Better spouse) tend to go through.
Were our marriages perfect? No but none are - EVER. The "perfect" marriage doesn't exist because it is a relationship between two imperfect people.
Were our marriages "good?" They were (for the most part), at least in our view until they weren't anymore (in the view of the Mid-Lifer). Of course, the Mid-Lifer tends to revise history so they were NEVER happy and the ENTIRE marriage was nothing but a shambles and pain and blah blah blah.
I would caution you, however, to also not go down the road of revisionist history (this is also something that the LBS can get caught up in - finding all of the negative aspects and asking themselves "Why didn't I notice that? Why did I accept that? Why did I put up with that?"etc, especially when external entities come back and tell us "Oh yeah, we knew there was something off but we didn't want to say anything."
Those external entities can also be blowing smoke up our collective butts in the idea that they are "supporting us."
Our marriages had good points and not-so-good points and it is important for our own lives and our own healing to see both the good and the bad and not just white- (or black-) wash the entire marriage. Remember the good, forgive (when you can) the bad and accept the present as it is.
Like you said, his words ("I don't know.") are not matching his actions/behaviour ("definitely not") so the old adage comes to mind - "When dealing with a mid-lifer, believe NONE of what you hear and only about 35% of what you see until the actions become consistent. Consistent actions (with the emphasis on "consistent") are what is probably REALLY going on inside the fog....."
Anything else is just more
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMzNmOTI2YXdpczFuZ2l1MTQxY3NvMmhjNHR4eXJidThjZzExdmg0cSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/lqSMNaqZbJSesdWxTD/giphy.gif)
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I was going to write something very similar to UM. It is a positive part of the journey to reflect and yes, sometimes we swing too far in one direction but you will find your equilibrium. We don't get 'over', we go through. And on the other side, it's different but good.
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I agree with amazinglove. Not wanting to make the first move towards separation or divorce is understandable, but it can stall healing. It depends on your situation.
You didn't break him, you cannot fix him. You should be taking care of you and your kids. He cannot do that, he can't even take care of himself at this time, imo.
If you feel there are things about yourself you want to improve, go for it. But don't do it because your H said you don't do x right or you never did y. That's a fools game. If you jumped through every hoop he tosses at you, he'd just toss more. He is stuck where he is not happy with himself. There are some where if they admit they have done wrong with their life, it's like saying they are wrong as a human being, so they have to project their shortcomings on others. My xh did exactly that, he'd accuse me of things he had done. Fortunately for me, when he did that I knew better. The hard accusations are the ones when you aren't sure if maybe you did do x thing. But guess what? Normal people tell you they have a problem with x thing and you work it out. Screwed up people carry a grudge on a PERCEIVED slight, spin it out of control, then explode at you years later.
It is my considered opinion that if you were caught completely off guard when things started to go south, there was nothing you could do. Your H had already made up whatever stories in his mind without benefit of consulting you.
I want to be sure you understand that it wasn't you. You can stand, not stand, stand until, but you can't fix it. That's up to him.