Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Midlife Crisis => Our Community => Topic started by: Arcticfox on July 02, 2025, 12:37:50 AM
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Hello,
I´m new around here. Not a native English speaker so please forgive any mistakes.
I was living the life I have dreamed of, in a house we built together with my dear husband. We have been together for 23 years now. We both fell in love with each other at first sight as university students and everybody including us has thought we are a match made in heaven. We have 3 lovely sons, oldest is special needs and for the past few years things have been challenging with him but lately it has been getting better. My H has been depressed since last autumn and not been able to pinpoint the reason, so i have been tried to be there for him and assumed it is his new job position as he is getting used to the leadership responsibility. It got to the point that he couldn´t sleep at night so he decided to see a psychologist so i thought things would start to get better on that front as well.
After the 1st visit with the psychologist H dropped the bomb that same night. He told me he has fallen in love with another woman. He wants a divorce because that same day he had confessed his love to this Woman at Work, and she was not interested in a relationship, but in H´s thinking if he were divorced there might be a tiny chance that the Woman from Work might change her mind. Also H let me know that he cares about me as we have been together for a long time but he does not love me any more.
Needless to say I was devastated. I had been taking out relationship for granted, sure that we would be together till death do us part and content with that. As my husband declared he wants a divorce, I realized just important he is to me, and how much I still love him. This BD shattered my whole world and destroyed my hope of financial security as well (I am a part time stay at home mum and we have agreed on this together with my H, that he will be the breadwinner and I will do more at home and take the kids to appointments, hobbies etc… stupid me).
After that day things got alternatively hot and cold between us as my husband seemed to he vacillating between staying or leaving. He had another discussion about there relationship with WW and from what I have been told, for her it was always just a deep friendship. But for my H an EA and he had believed that she reciprocated. Nevertheless, H wants to move out of out house to think about things which I dont understand really as we are now having the best discussions ever (he has been the typical man who won´t talk about feelings but now he does), whenever we go out we have fun together even in this situation. He said after BD that i am his best friend, now he says i am his buddy… but he is having hard time keeping his hands off me?! And vice versa. He wants to watch netflix with me every evening so why does he need to get out? And break the childrens´ home and family?
I guess there has been so much anxiety and depression that he just feels the need to get out. He is feeling better atm but still says he has anxiety and sadness. Before BD he has described that he felt all the time like he will die if he can´t be with WW. Also, he is not 100% over what i feel is limerice towards WW, wanting to understand better why she is not interested in him? And wanting to be friends with her. H has also repeatedly mentioned dating and setting up a tinder profile. I am his first and only partner ever and he feels he missed out in his youth as he was too shy. He has always excercised regularly but is now ramping it up and apparently worried of weakening muscles as he ages. Had his hormones tested (everything okay), is thinking of his appearance and changed the way he dresses.
He is in the process of moving out, rented an apartment nearby so the kids can stay week/week. I feel the teens will not necessarily agree to this. Dog will stay with me but if we don´t reconcile this will eventually lead to the sale of out family home as it is too large and expensive for a family with only one adult. I never in my worst nightmares thought that something liike this could happen to us, and everybody we know is flabbergasted as well as they cannot imagine H acting liike this. He has been the most honest, trustworthy and reliable person anybody knows. And a family man. I feel like I don´t know him anymore. (Or maybe I never did?) I have occasionally seen the monster too but for the most part we are amicable, even kissing and cuddling and comforting each other in this situation. This does not make any sense to me at all.
Sure, looking back out marriage was on the back burner becuse of kids and careers and everyday life, but we sometimes did small getaways and had kisses and hugs every day and the bedroom was far from cold. I would like to get that back and while I am realizing I must be prepared for anything, like him marrying someone else, I can´t see a better outcome for myself (and also for H) that reconciling. He has multiple times expressed a worry that he is making a mistake, but he is still determined to move out, be separated and live as a single man, he can´t say what his goals are.
For now I have chosen to stand. I have not told him this. I no longer bother him with I love yous. And am refusing sex even though we both would like it. But if he can´t even say he likes me, and doesn´t want to live with me, i have to respect myself. (For the record I think he does at least like if not love me, his head is just messed up. Or I am fooling myself, but I am basing this on his behavior.) He has said in Marital therapy that he fell out of love with me 4 years ago though… and I did notice some anxiety/crankiness in him on the Eve of out 20th marital anniversary last summer that I wondered about.
In any case I wish there was some way to know whether he will ever return home, or even what are the chances of reconciliation happening. Does anybody have any statistics on this? Any opinions, advice or whatever you want to say is also greatly appreciated!
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"Welcome "to the HS forum, a place where we NEVER wanted to ever need.... But the people here will be glad that you found us.
OK, first and foremost, H sounds to me like he read Page 18 of "How to have a Mid-Life Crisis for Dummies" and is determined to live it out to the brutal end. Does that mean 100% that a divorce is in the wings? Maybe, maybe not.
However, the most important thing to keep in mind is that YOU did not cause this crisis and YOU can not do anything to fix it. This is HIS crisis, 100% with all the consequences that go along with it. You have about as much influence on the trajectory of his crisis as you would be going outside as a tornado is bearing down on you and trying to change is course by yelling really loudly and flapping your arms at it.
Second, if he is talking divorce and has already rented an apartment, you need to lawyer up pronto. Mid-Lifers can burn through cash like water flowing over Niagara Falls and you do not want to be in a position of having your savings (what there is) suddenly goi9ng up in smoke or to an OW or whatever lifestyle H wants to lead now. Make sure that you are legally and financially protected. MLC'ers HATE having to deal with consequences and responsibility. Their "word of honor" has absolutely ZERO value. They can (and do) change their minds at the drop of a hat to whatever they think will make them happy at any moment in time.
Third, protect yourself physically. H says he is "in lurve" with some woman at work and that is not reciprocated. OK... Bully for him. That doesn't mean that he is not doing the Mattress Mambo with her or someone else. TO put it bluntly, you can tell an MLC'er is lying because their lips are moving. They will tell you what they think you want to hear because it suits their needs and keeps them form having to face mean old Mr. Reality and the associated results/consequences of their actions.
In my tag line, there is a link to "Guidance for Newbies" that will lead you to a whole bunch of articles written up by RollercoasterRider (RCR who owns this Website/Forum. Take a look at them and have a good read because they will help you understand a bit of what s going on in your life and what you will need to do or at least consider as you move forward through the jungle that is MLC.
Finally, feel free to post when and as often as you wish. This forum is made of people from all over the globe (I am in Germany for example) so there is usually SOMEONE online somewhere at any one time. Please also post to your thread until it reaches 150 posts before starting a new topic/thread. That helps us as Admins to keep a handle on the number of threads that are running at any one time. You can also look through the other stories that are here and see if some of the experiences of others rings a bell with you or sounds familiar. There are about as many different kinds of Mid-Lifers as there are grains of sand on a beach and, while there will be similarities, no one will be experiencing the situation exactly the same way as you are so some of the advice my be applicable and some may be for the trash can. Take what fits for you and discard what doesn't.
Like I said at the beginning, welcome. We are sorry that you needed to find us but glad that you did.
Ursa
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Thank you for the well thought out post Ursa! I will certainly return to read it many times. Some ”tough love” but that must be exactly the right attitude to take now.
Funny how there seems to be a guidebook for MLCers, before finding this site I have discussed this with a relative whose H pulled kinda similar stunt on her (he was exactly the same age as my H is now). And they are using some exactly same sentences! I would like to read the guidebook they´re using to have some idea what is to come ;)
Oh btw I am in Europe as well
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Luckily for you, this forum does have at least a partial guidebook and a lot of experience. That’s the good news.
The bad news is that - regardless of what happens in ypur future relationship with your h - the reality of your world, and probably most of the pieces in it that matter most to you, have now changed beyond recognition. It’s just too big an upending to go back to an ‘old normal’ although understandably most of us try to for a while. This isn’t a blip or a hiccup in an otherwise safe and solid life….it’s a tornado and it throws all the pieces up in the air. It’s hard to predict how some of those pieces will fall. Even your h probably doesn’t know and he is the one throwing all the pieces in the air. I would encourage you to try to sit with that feeling for a little while before you jump into big actions or reactions. That life can still be good but it will never be the same for any of you. I am so sorry. Let yourself feel that and allow yourself all the feelings you feel, including grief for the losses.
You asked about statistics and, if you’ve been reading here, you probably know that they are not good for your marriage. If I had to guess, I’d say probably less than 5% keep a marriage worth having. Most LBS end up divorced. Most end up navigating at least a couple of years of chaos and uncertainty. Most find that things get a bit worse before they get better. Most slowly come to the realisation that this is not a ‘normal’ kind of marital break up and that, whatever it is, you do not control it and you can’t fix it bc you didn’t cause it. That’s a hard thing to wrap your head around too, isn’t it, after decades together?
So, what can you do? Well, you are very wise to pull back and not play on whatever nonsensical fantasy ‘you’re my best sexy buddy that I want to divorce’ merry go round game he has in his head. If only bc that’s not how sane sensible adults see the world….you don’t decide to divorce people bc you love them and want a shared future. And you don’t expect everything to stay the same or that others are not going to treat you differently if that’s the choice you make. You are a sane smart adult woman and you know that; it’s just a horrible thing to experience and accept.
You may find that him moving out actually makes it easier for you and the kids to see the wood for the crazy trees and find your own path forward. How much do your kids know? How are they responding to it all? Based on what you have shared so far, I’d encourage you to take some legal and financial advice - you don’t have to act on it but information can be helpful. Do you have a support system other than your kids? Family? Good safe friends? If you do, I’d encourage you to tell some of them what is going on for you bc this stuff is hard and confusing, and the support of others can make it easier for you to be a support for your kids.
You can do all of these things while ‘standing’ if you wish and indeed could see it as you safeguarding as much of your shared life and resources and family until or unless your h chooses a different path. And if he doesn’t, these things will still help you and your kids navigate the chaos and protect yourselves from the effects of it the best you can.
Post whenever you want about anything you need. I doubt there is anything you might say that most of us have not thought, felt or done x
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Thank you for your reply Treasur!
I am lucky to have some good friends that I have told about this catastrophe, and also a few relatives that I can count on for emotional support. The in-laws are completely on my side in this and feel that their son (my H) is making the mistake of his life. Unfortunately no-one can turn his head, even the former MLCr relative who has since said that he was not right in the head back then.
Their story is kind of a reconciliation story as he moved out for a night or two to live with the AW, but then returned. Unfortunately their marriage has not been the same since (that happened about 2 years ago). They are together but neither of them is happy. He is in depression regretting what he has done, and his wife says she does not love him any more and is not sure if the feeling will ever come back. They´re staying together for the kids and trying to make it work but I feel sorry for them both.
As for my situation it is definitely true that there will be no going back to what I thought we had, as H has been my bedrock that I have trusted 100% so even if he returns things will be different. Actually in the first weeks after BD when things were going quite well between us, I told him that if he can surprise me like this after 23 years together, it will probably take 25 years before I can trust him again.
Well, as he is moving out (rented an apartment, got keys two days ago and was buying furniture today) it is too early to think of reconciliation, rather he is getting more and more withdrawn and unfortunately seems to be mentally feeling better and better as he prepares to move out completely. He does seem to understand what a disaster this is for me, and is sad about it. (Said he feels like he is the joker). He did try to get under my dress today though :o
It will probably be better emotionally for me and the kids when he is not around here. Then I think the reality will truly sink in for me. The kids are really nonchalant about this all and refusing to discuss it. I do not know what I should or can do about it. I am expecting a lot of emotional fallout later.
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Sorry you found us Arctic :(.
I don’t have much to add. The advice here is sound. But for the fellow LBS here. It’s uncanny just how similar all these stories all are……. It’s like the MLCers are legit following a Ctrl-P template. And it’s tragic for those left behind.
If I could give myself my own advice back then. Knowing what I know now. I’d have got out from the beginning.
Holding on. Justifying their actions. Having hope. It was not worth the psychological abuse and torture that I had to endure and I’ll be carrying those scars for the rest of my life.
I should have seen it for what it was. A brutal betrayal. And I wish I’d moved on sooner.
Find your own path. Do what’s right for you. But reaching acceptance sooner than later about what’s happened will only benefit you IMO.
Really sorry for what’s happened :(. But know that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Thank you WHY
H says he wants to be separated and live as a single person but not divorce. (No legal separation in my country and no laws against adultery). He has said that he wishes that I would wait for him but does not want to ask, because he does not know what decision he will make in the end (whether he will want to return home). I know I will hurt so much more before things are over, no matter what happens. I would be easiest just to cut my losses and get on with my life, but unfortunately I feel that I am not ready to do that yet. After all he has had years to process this and I was totally blindsided and for me the love is still there. It is uncanny how similar most of the LBS stories are.
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H says he wants to be separated and live as a single person but not divorce.
Ok. We understand that right now you are not ready to take certain actions. You’re not alone in that and we get it.
So, let’s get practical on what ‘separated’ and ‘live as a single person’ might mean for you and your kids as there is no legal separation where you live. Right now it sounds as if your h is basically saying ‘I am taking a vacation from being married and from family life to live as if I am a single man again’, for an undefined period of time with no end date. That probably feels to you (and to him) as if all the power rests in his hands, but you do have options on how you approach this even if you are not ready to file for divorce.
Finances - what financial arrangements have you agreed? Have you locked down things like joint credit cards or accounts to minimise your liability to any debt he creates financing his new single life? What do you expect/need him to contribute to support you and the kids? Will you and the kids still be covered for things like health insurance or still remain as legal beneficiaries of his will or similar?
Amount and type of contact - how often/little do you both wish to see each other and for what? What do you expect from each other in terms of family life or things that are no longer shared? And what method would work best for communication? Kid/school events? Medical needs? Emergencies? Will you both have a key to each others homes? And if not, will you make arrangements in advance if either wish to come to the others home for any reason? (And I’d be very surprised if his ‘plan’ is anything but one-sided right now but that’s no reason for you not to have the right to have some boundaries and working rules of your own for this separated way of living that he has decided he wants)
Kids - in addition to the practicalities of financial support, what are the arrangements for how and where the kids will spend their time? Along with all the kid practicalities that this involves - school, pick up and drop off, where they will sleep at his new apartment, how to manage schedules. Plus of course what your kids feel ok with or don’t.
Wife/husband appliance duties - most LBS find this a hard adjustment and most MLCers are happy to assume that they get to have their cake and eat it! But these things still are often practical things as well as emotional ones. It’s normal to expect things from each other after decades of being a team, but living separated lives means changes to that. What sort of things will you no longer be available to do? Might be small things like laundry or dinner or mowing the lawn, bigger things like general life admin or areas of life that are no longer appropriate to share like emotional support or health issues or social activities. And what cuts one way should cut the other imho. How will your expectations of each others involvement in certain things adapt to these new circumstances? How much of his personal ‘stuff’ is he taking with him and, as you are not a human storage unit, what does he intend to do about everything he isn’t taking with him?
And a review/end date - you don’t have to discuss, let alone negotiate or agree any of the new boundaries you want to put in place. And I’d be very surprised if your h has given much thought at all to a whole bunch of things that are at the forefront of your mind right now. However, at its most simple, your h is asking you to sign up to an unclear period of limbo for an unspecified period of time with unclear conditions. It’s ok for you to put your own mental review point on that - 6 months? A year? - and then decide to review it and see how you feel. And you don’t have to share that review point with him - it’s for you bc limbo is a very hard way to live, and he has already told you he has no end date in mind. But if you need one, it’s ok to have one even if it changes.
Right now, you and your h are on very different pages. You are probably hurt, confused and fearful. He is probably feeling rather relieved and a bit giddy with excitement about his new ‘magic happy’ escape to single man life. He is the one leaving; you are the one being left. You are probably hoping this will all blow over and he will find out that the new life isn’t what he wants. He is probably assuming that it will all work out swimmingly, you will all stay great friends and everyone will slowly adjust to what he wants in his new life. Which means that, practically speaking, you are looking through very different windows and have different priorities.
My very best advice for you - although I suspect you may not feel ready to take it yet - is to give him the single life he wants and then some. To withdraw yourself from his life, his problems and his way of living as much as you can, and to take back your life from his gaze too. Say very little. Look for support and comfort from others. Let him figure out the practicalities of his new chosen life without your opinion or help. Have as little contact or conversation as you can while being civil. Let him figure out how to be a parent or how to deal with looking after himself or how to deal with his own life admin without your help. You look after you and your kids and your own life. Let him fully experience the reality of his new chosen life with all the predictable consequences that come with it…..try to see it as having been fired from your wife and partner and best friend job….take your time to figure out what that means for your new life even if it isn’t one you wanted or chose.
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Thank you again, so much good advice… there is so much wisdom and experience on this Forum that I feel I can´t take it all in as fast as the good advice is coming!
Indeed I feel like H has all the power in this situation. Basically the only thing I can do is file a divorce which I don´t want to do. Even if it would make sense financially as everything we own would be split in two and divided between us. And it would be his loss after that if he spends all his savings or gets into debt after filing (during the 6 month consideration period). I feel like I´m a gambler and the stakes are way too high for my taste.
But I am trying to draw what boundaries I can. I have read some of the site and the journals here and listened to the advice of my friends and I see that the only way H will even consider ever returning is if I can truly leave him on his own. And if we end up divorcing, that too will be easier on me that way, and I will have some self-respect.
It is hard as I have been the life admin and I fear the kids will suffer. Some of H´s stuff will necessarily remain here as this is a big house, and some tools etc are needed here and can´t be stored at the apartment. But I have told him that he may not come and go on his own but will need to arrange with me if he wants to pick something up. Otherwise I intend to only communicate on kid-related things, not try to engage him in any discussions about other topics.
We agreed to meet in marital therapy in the end on august.
As for myself I have set a time limit of 6 months, when I will re-evaluate the situation. At this point I feel if there is not a glimmer of hope I might need to make some decisions. But I will also allow myself to prolong or shortening that period according to how I feel :P and I haven´t told him about this.
H had not even thought that he will not then be seeing out dog anymore (apartment is no pets allowed). He was a bit shocked as I said so. He said maybe the kids can come pick the dog up and they can then take the dog for a walk together. I am not a big fan of him sending the kids on his errands to what will be my home, but also dont want to tell the kids they can´t take the dog out or come to what I feel is their real home. Out places are 400m apart so this is easy for practical purposes (kids can walk/bus to schools from both places) but otherwise maybe not ideal because we will probably sometimes bump into each other. We have planned that the kids will stay week/week.
The middle son has already said he does not want to go stay with his dad though, would only like to visit sometimes. Not my can of worms really, I will not force him even though it would be important to have a relationship with son and father, I will not stand in the way but it is ultimately between the two of them.
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Dear Arctic Fox,
Sorry you are here.... I could have pretty much wrote your first post myself, back in the day, except , no kids.
I can hear your brain whirring away from here - attempting to sort out this and that - the dog, the tools, the house. I would encourage you to drop these just for a moment. All you need to really think about is securing your finances and getting emotional support (for you, and the kids). And, putting in some boundaries with H so that you can achieve the latter. The rest can wait for a while. Take time to feel what you feel, scream into a pillow, and cry when you need to. It's understandable you feel like you H has all the 'power' at the moment because you've been smashed into pieces by a giant emotional hammer. You will feel crushed, traumatized. It's awful. That's why you need to give yourself some grace for a while. It sounds like a platitude, but it is not. You must deploy self-care, this event can make you seriously ill.
The dust of the hammer blow/BD will slowly clear and you will see more clearly. Feel more able and see a way forward. When it happened to me, I was like you. I went into 'do' overdrive, and the kind folk here told me to slow down and take care. And, that doing nothing is sometimes doing something. And in this case, it is channeling energies to where they are needed.
Your H is a classic 'MLC'er. They don't have a plan (see above 'dog'). My H hadn't even worked out that he wouldn't be able to drive off to his new adventure in the car I owned. He couldn't even figure out how to physically leave (funny, in a dark way, now I look back on it). And BTW, he used the tools in the garage as an excuse to come back every 5 minutes. It wore me down so I divided them in half and sent them to him - and he was living like a monk in a box room at the time (this was his new happy BTW). Nothing healthy comes from them popping in all the time (often when you are not there) .
Your H is immature. They all are. It seems most of them missed a step in their maturation, and when things get tough they run. They deploy a childhood response. My observation is that this is often when the spouse is distracted (kids, illness, demands at work etc). The MLC type is often dependent, and in the absence of the 'fixing' spouse, looks for other forms of validation and reassurance. Enter, stage left the OP or EA.
They are depressed, yes. They are also damaging to others and extremely self-centred . We have to hold both facts in our head. Which is hard.
If the whole thing wasn't so devastating, it would be a cliche teenage drama. Even the phrase ILYBINILWY is what teenagers say to each other when they break up. My teenage friends and I used to laugh about what a cliche that was, even then.
Your H has careered off the rails, he doesn't realise how much off the track he is at the moment, but alas, he has put in motion something he can no longer control. And it will likely get worse, based on his obvious lack of mature coping skills. Righting a derailed train is not in his skill-set. But I suspect keeping things on track is in yours, once you have had time to reassemble a bit.
As Treasur often says - slow your roll a bit. You will be OK. We all are in the end.
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Again such a spot on comment!
And you are right KayDee, I think that the marital problem for H was that I have been distracted by S17´s health problems for about 3 years. And before this, I have always turned to H for emotional support. He has no emotional skills really but has always been there to hug me and say things will be all right. But now I tried to burden him less with how I have struggled emotionally, as he was sort of trialing up for the leadership position at work, this was really important for us both that he gets the position. But probably there was a mistake. And meanwhile, the WW was turning to my H and telling him of her personal problems which probably made him feel important. Lesson learned for me but kind of late and the hard way…
Indeed I do not know how he will be able to pull out of this living alone. His own emotional coping skills have been locking bad feelings out, doing sports, and alcohol. Not good. But I will need to right my ship and try to keep course in this metaphorical storm. And time will tell which port I will end up in. I understand I can´t help him now, I must leave him to solve this crisis on his own and save myself.
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Thank you WHY
H says he wants to be separated and live as a single person but not divorce. (No legal separation in my country and no laws against adultery). He has said that he wishes that I would wait for him but does not want to ask, because he does not know what decision he will make in the end (whether he will want to return home).
Sorry you are here and you are getting great advice from others so I have just been reading. But I want to emphasize how much this is a repeating pattern, that we all initially want to think it isn't. But the crises is theirs and has nothing to do with you. And nothing they say means anything, even if they want it to mean something.
Just so you know my wife said exactly the same things EIGHT YEARS ago, and even said its only for one year. Let me assure you eight years later nothing has changed, she is just as disordered if not more, still running around out of control, and will simultaneously say she is NEVER coming back then spend 1.5 years at our house while I stay away. And she says she is never coming back but also says there is no reason for us to ever get a divorce.
Live your life, protect yourself. If anything changes you can always think about it then. Meanwhile acceptance that your H is on a long and potentially never ending new journey is critical.
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This is also a very good point.
H has always been a man of his word so it has been hard for me to realize I can´t trust what he says any more. And for what it´s worth he has often said after BD that what he says is what´s on his mind that moment and it keeps changing. I guess ”I wish you would wait” is like tossing a lifebuoy to a drowning person: of course I grab it desperately even if it came with no promises. But he has also TWICE said he thinks we will probably divorce in the end, and he will regret it when I have moved on and it is too late - and this I didn´t want to believe. Because of my personal preference at the moment.
Oh well. I try to take to heart the great advice to concentrate on my own life and well-being. And the boys. For now it is incidentally the same as standing. I hope to be able to keep this house for 4 more years until both teens have graduated high school. And heal from having my heart ripped out by the person I loved the most in this world. But time will tell what happens. (Not saying I will stand for 4 years. But I feel that after the sale of the house we built together to be our forever home, it might well be too late for reconciliation from my point of view. Not making any decisions, just how I feel now.)
Thank you WHY
H says he wants to be separated and live as a single person but not divorce. (No legal separation in my country and no laws against adultery). He has said that he wishes that I would wait for him but does not want to ask, because he does not know what decision he will make in the end (whether he will want to return home).
Sorry you are here and you are getting great advice from others so I have just been reading. But I want to emphasize how much this is a repeating pattern, that we all initially want to think it isn't. But the crises is theirs and has nothing to do with you. And nothing they say means anything, even if they want it to mean something.
Just so you know my wife said exactly the same things EIGHT YEARS ago, and even said its only for one year. Let me assure you eight years later nothing has changed, she is just as disordered if not more, still running around out of control, and will simultaneously say she is NEVER coming back then spend 1.5 years at our house while I stay away. And she says she is never coming back but also says there is no reason for us to ever get a divorce.
Live your life, protect yourself. If anything changes you can always think about it then. Meanwhile acceptance that your H is on a long and potentially never ending new journey is critical.
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You might not feel like it, AF, but I cannot find good enough words to say how smart and wise you come across as on the page. Which, given that this is perhaps the worst time of your life and when you feel most bewildered, is really saying something. It’s impressive tbh and I’d happily bet on Team You in building a good next life chapter regardless 😜
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Agreed Treasur,
If it were a 2 horse race I'm betting it all on AF to come out winning over your H - you seem like you're doing incredibly well AF (good name btw). You're getting some really good advice from some folks that have been through this and have come out thriving.
Sorry you're here, it's a $h!teshow for sure but you've ended up on here, and that alone shows that you care a great deal more than most that get a crappy hand in a relationship.
I wish I'd listened more to the veterans on here at the beginning and concentrated on my own healing and welfare. If you're standing then ultimately pivoting your attention to your own needs and that of your kids right now will make zero impact on any reconciliation or reconnection chances later on the line but will benefit you greatly. In the frist few months / years of MLC we're usually pretty invisible to the spouse that we hold in such high regard. The best you can do is be polite to them and concentrate on yourself
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Thank you Treasur and Biscuit! I appreciate your words so much. It is not true but I have been feeling very small and stupid lately. And it is very hard to not concentrate on the crazy antics of the MLCer or the fate of the relationship that was in the center of my world, instead of things that feel less pressing. But I will do my best to take care of myself and the kids, and forgive myself for being only a human. Thank God I found this site and Forum, otherwise I would feel even more lost right now.
H suddenly monstered on me yesterday after seeking my company and having what felt a deep and meaningful discussion. Suddenly he got really angry and started accusing me of all kinds of horrible things that are not true. Frankly for a moment I thought he lost his mind for a while and couldn´t calm down. He has never been like that before MLC. Later he apologized and a bit after that started reminiscing WW aloud, not by name but I know who he meant with the wistful ”some people can energise another with a happy smile”… bit later he was all hugs and kisses over me for half an hour. I just try my best to detach and not react to whatever he does at the moment.
I am sure the WW is actually a nice person. But as she does not reciprocate H´s feelings, he can go on and on living in a fantasy how perfect everything would be if they were together. And he misses out that there is a woman at home who is the mother of his children and willing to actually love him. I´m not bad looking either. But there´s nothing that will bring him to his senses I know.
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H suddenly monstered on me yesterday after seeking my company and having what felt a deep and meaningful discussion. Suddenly he got really angry and started accusing me of all kinds of horrible things that are not true. Frankly for a moment I thought he lost his mind for a while and couldn´t calm down. He has never been like that before MLC. Later he apologized and a bit after that started reminiscing WW aloud, not by name but I know who he meant with the wistful ”some people can energise another with a happy smile”… bit later he was all hugs and kisses over me for half an hour. I just try my best to detach and not react to whatever he does at the moment.
Another textbook ("MLC for Dummies") example of ... well.... a Mid-Lifer. I am sorry to say that you MIGHT (no guarantees) see more and more of this behaviour as he starts to spiral more and more out of control. MLCxW1 went off on rages like Godzilla with Rabies on a bad hair day while MLCxW2 just "got sick" and couldn't cope with the outside world (read "depression") so your mileage may vary.
However, the "mood du jour" is likely to be quite mercurial.... It sounds as if you handled it really well though - not engaging, not taking the bait to argue (which really does nothing more than giving them a justification for doing what they are doing), and simply nodding along an making non-committal noises like "Uh-huh" and "Hmmmm ...."
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You´re right Ursa, I have noticed that the noncommittal sounds just to let him know I hear him seem to be the best way to get him to calm down. Mostly he is quite normal though and that also seems kind of weird to me, as he is moving out of here and does not want to live with me, but he just goes through the motions of daily life, does small talk with me like there´s nothing going on? And less than two weeks ago he had another horrible rage that lasted for two hours (he was threatening to kill a person who was not present, who he though might contact WW, was clenching his fists and teeth and hissing at me that he will kill if that happens and that he wants divorce real fast). Okay yesterday I told him I never saw him like that, except that other day. And he didn´t remember having had a two hour rage culminating in a hissy fit? But I´d guess that is normal MLC as well?
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Nothing about MLC is normal, but yes this kind of disordered and nonsensical behavior is the norm. Honestly as hard as it is you have to detach, not engage, offer no observations, no commentary. If you have to be around him just acknowledge things with no commitment or emotion, no matter how hard it is don't offer help, advice or observations. Anything and everything you do will simply be turned around or cause some kind of reaction, trust me. And whatever you suggest, no matter how sensical, will suddenly be the wrong thing (sky is not up, etc).
Try to keep reminding yourself that due to a significant psychological event this is no longer the person you know, and no normal emotional or logical rules apply. You are around a person who is internally fractured and spewing out negative emotions they can not contain. So think of it as being around an out of control set of spinning blades, how will getting near that or trying to touch any of it be good for you?
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I love the spinning blades figure of speech marvin4242, that sums the situation up accurately!
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Okay, so tomorrow will be our 21th wedding anniversary. H reminded me of it. I told him that I remember… so, he said: let’s not celebrate it. At least not this year.
What should I make of that? Nothing probably. Only that he does not know what he wants.
We came to spend time at our summer cottage by a lake. He said he wants to so some repairs here (they should have been done two years ago but he has been dragging his feet, in retrospect I think it has been the depression). Now he is determined to make those repairs before moving out. The cabin has been built by my parents and I own a part. In any case, H said he wants to come spend a few weeks there as it is important for the boys.
It has been going surprisingly well for us two here. I have been able to be calm and detached for most of the time. But of course I am not energetic and happy (like the WW has been described by H). Somehow I feel I should be such great company that he regrets moving out. But I am me, and in this situation, who would be full of bubbling energy? I find myself pretending just a little.
That said, things feel surprisingly easy and light here. We have played board games with the kids and shared laughs. There is light chit chat and he will almost every day want to do some activity with me even though he said he is here for the boys’ sake. It almost feels like there is nothing wrong but then he will say something like ”the new furniture I ordered for my flat will be coming on day x” or ”I may have a work trip on my parenting week so we have to figure out how to arrange that”.
The latter got me seething inwardly as there was no problem with work trips or sick kids when we were together. The everyday family life was still kind of a grind with lots of life admin needed even living together. But we had it working or frankly, I had things rolling. And now he is adding another level of complication for no reason that makes any sense.
We have been watching netflix every night before bed and yesterday for example he held me close and held my hand a long time. But he can’t say honey or ”I like you”. I don’t get it I just don’t. I am so confused. I he cares about me at all and loves the boys and the dog, why does he need to do this? How CAN he do this? And how can he act so normal most of the time, so calm and composed and friendly? I would feel better if he would rage or cry. He is just adamant that he will move out on the 19th of this month.
This sucks.
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I am sorry, it sounds hard to be in a kind of half-married and to know that he is moving out. It’s a very confusing time, isn’t it?
You ask why and how can he? Put simply, at least at the moment, your h probably thinks he can discard the bits of you/family life he doesn’t want, keep what he does and skip off to enjoy his new magic happy life. And bc he thinks he can. (There’s an English phrase about having your cake and eating it, and most of these folks do this at least for a while.)
I’d encourage you to start quietly thinking now about new life ‘rules’ once he moves out, about boundaries essentially. Will you still be available for Netflix and hand holding? Will you still do collective family holidays? Or play board games? Or let him use the cabin without you or the kids there? (Bc sadly it’s not unusual for them to import an ow into what was a family-owned space) What do the kids know? And how will you organise him spending time with them (or the dog lol) in a way which does not feel too distressing or uncomfortable for you?
It’s a good time to think about your own limits now, about how much cake you are prepared to offer. Or not. He probably won’t like any new boundaries much bc these folks don’t. He will probably try to gaslight you about it or manipulate you; don’t let him. He is the one choosing to change how life works, after all - you are just working out how you want to adapt to that new situation. Read about DARVO bc I bet you’ll see some. Read more stories here so you can understand in your bones that you can’t nice him back and that you and your kids lives exist for a bigger purpose than doling out endless cake! And I’d consult a lawyer about securing ownership of that log cabin so it stays in YOUR family as they were the ones that built it. Oh, and maybe find a local reliable handyman for those repairs!
But I am so sorry bc this is a hard time, we know.
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What should I make of that? Nothing probably. Only that he does not know what he wants.
<...snip...>
I don’t get it I just don’t. I am so confused. I he cares about me at all and loves the boys and the dog, why does he need to do this? How CAN he do this? And how can he act so normal most of the time, so calm and composed and friendly?
One tried, tested and proven UM'ism coming up.....
What should you make of that? Why does he need to do this?
What does green taste like after you stick your elbow in it?
You'll have about as much success answering that question as you will the previous two... As Treasur noted, one answer is "Because he thinks he can and that you are just to going to accept (and support) his new reality. The problem with that is a) he doesn't have a firetrucking clue what that "new reality" is supposed to look like. He's making it all up as he goes along by seeing what gets him the biggest dopamine rush and doing that and b) He hasn't yet had to experience the "real world consequences" of his actions, including boundaries and NOT always getting what he wants at any specific moment.
As Treasur also noted, Mid-Lifers have real antipathy towards consequences, responsibility, and boundaries applied to them. They see them much as as Leona Helmsley saw Income Taxes - "Oh, that is just for the little people to pay" - before she was found guilty and sentenced to prison for Tax Evasion so you can expet a temper tantrum of some form when those boundaries and consequences are being established or have an impact.
T makes a VERY good point about the cabin. Your family built it and he should be excluded from any ownership of any part of it if at all possible.
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Thank you for your replies Treasur and Ursa! They helped me process this crazyness a little. I have nothing much to say at the moment, I am without words.
Today would be our 21st wedding anniversary.
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Hug xxx
My young neighbours are getting married in a couple of weeks and I have been chatting to them about it. Even a couple of years ago, I couldn’t. Much like Marvin says in his recent post (and his timescale is similar to mine), I too have found that time and distance has quietened a lot of the churn and that allows me now to look back on things with a smile.
I have no idea really what happened to the person I knew, and I would rather go to the dentist than talk to him now lol….but I loved him and it felt like a good kind of love to me and I appreciated it and him very much. I think he was a fool to throw it away as if it was all nothing, but it helps to truly see that I just could not have foreseen it as I don’t really even understand it now, and I tried my best. But reaching that point - where I can celebrate the memory of things worth celebrating - has taken me several years. And I still quietly remember my anniversary on 12th Sept just like I quietly remember my Dad’s birthday even though he died just before BD.
The chances are strong that your experience will be much the same. It’s just hard to see the horizon when you are still on the battlefield, isn’t it?
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(((hug)))
You’re right, I know things will get easier and better as time passes. I sort of know it but don’t feel it at the same time.
I would think he will come back, if he hadn’t said he hasn’t loved me for years any more. Well pretended, I didn’t have a clue.
I know the best thing to do is just wait and live my life, and time will pass on its own accord. This process can’t be hurried. Or these processes. Meaning mine, his, and what is left of what was us.
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This is odd.
Two days ago I was so angry at H.
Yesterday I was teary-eyed for most if the time (although I try to hide my tears from him).
As I woke up today, probably the first time since BD the first thought on my mind wasn’t ”how can this nightmare be true that he will abandon me?”. Instead my first conscious thought was that I cannot remember how it felt to trust him. Not just that I do not trust him anymore and I used to rely on him 100%. But I can’t even remember how it felt.
I guess this is progress although it does not actually make me happy that this is the direction I must head. Today I have mostly felt at peace no matter what the future brings.
I hope that I can remember this calm and strong feeling when the next angry or sad or desperate day comes (probably tomorrow :P)
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I think you said he is moving out on the 19th?
Progress forward - and I prefer ‘moving forward’ to ‘moving on’ as a phrase because it seems more like a real description of how it is - often comes in small steps imho. Sometimes in moments at the beginning, sometimes up and down. It’s normal; how you feel is normal. Looking back, it’s easier to see the shift and one’s own progress. What matters imho is the overall direction, which way your head is facing if that makes sense. And small steps matter bc they unfold into bigger things with time. Think of it working a bit like compound interest works in a savings account perhaps 😝
I wonder if you might find it useful as a small step to put a boundary in place for yourself after he moves out? Something like no contact at all (unless there is a life-threatening emergency!) for 5 days or a week or 2 weeks - whatever feels doable to you. No meetings, no visits, no phone calls, no texts or emails - just silence and space. Give yourself a break from the rollercoaster and a chance to breathe a bit. Let him feel the new reality he has chosen without you being available. Give everyone a chance for the big emotions to settle down a little. What do you think?
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Yes he will leave from the cottage on 19th of this month (about a week from now) and go move his clothes and things to his new apartment from our home.
I will stay at the cabin with the boys for 1 more week.
After that, (about two weeks from now) my niece has her confirmation, me and H are her godparents so we will likely both be attending the party. (Interestingly there is another couple where only the husband will be attending as he and his wife are divorcing as the wife just turned 50 and she is having a difficult time with herswlf or this is the explanation I was given). That is probably going to be one sad party. I guess me and H need to get in the same car to drive there (two hour trip each way).
So after that, I have planned to go NC as much as possible. Unfortunately I predict there will be need of communication considering the kids’ stuff. School will also start then and kids should be going week/week to each place. I expect their stuff to be all over the place and S14 not wanting to go to his dad’s place and H telling me I need to make S14 come.
But other than kid stuff I intend to be pretty much NC until we have the marital therapy session on 26.8. I think. So I will meet him at the therapist’s office then. That is going to be so scary, not knowing whether he has found someone or wants to divorce or whatever. But I guess he needs his space and I could use some as well.
Then there is S14’s confirmation in september… i suppose I must invite his dad ::) wait actually I don’t know whose week that is, can you tell this is all new to me :P
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Fwiw I’d suggest you plan to travel to your niece’s confirmation on your own. Or even better, if possible, with a friend or family member. Why? Bc these crisis folks are unreliable. Bc being trapped in a car in an uncomfortable situation is never good. Bc it’s good to not be depending on him for anything right now. If you MUST share a car for some reason - and I assume you can drive - then YOU drive, YOU set the departure time and leave without him if he’s not ready and then YOU can choose when you leave.
Sorry I can’t recall….how much have you told your wider family about what’s going on? Do they know he’s moving out and has said he wants a divorce?
You share kids so, yes, there may need to be some basic factual communication. Take your time now to think about how you intend for that to happen which will be better for you and the kids. Jmo but aim for the bare minimum and try to do it in a BIFF way - brief, informational, firm and friendly (as in polite not as in like a close friend). Do not expect much in the way of empathy or consideration. Do not share your feelings, just facts. Consider who should pick up/drop off kids and manage kids schedules, school etc. might be worth informing the school too if you have not done so already.
Read stories here from other parents…it’s not your job to maintain or fix his relationship with your kids, just to not get in the way of it. Depending on where you live, your son may have the legal right to decide for himself?
Can’t remember, have you taken legal advice on things like custody, child support and finances? I ask bc unwittingly during a ‘separation’ ( particularly when the LBS is hoping it’s a temporary separation) one can set precedents for a future divorce settlement that may not be what you think is best for you or your kids. Jmo.
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Almost everybody knows that we are separating and he has midlife crisis. Some know more. Since he announced that he is moving out, I saw no reason to keep it a secret any more. These are my relatives and this situation could be more than a little awkward for H… but I trust the people to be civil it is my niece’s party after all.
Unfortunately we only have one car and it is kind of difficult to get there otherwise.
OTOH I have only twice seen a monster that actually scared me. Almost all the time he is more polite and friendly than normally (he used to be a bit cranky) and like ”sorry that things went this way” so the drive SHOULD be okay.
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This is odd.
Two days ago I was so angry at H.
Yesterday I was teary-eyed for most if the time (although I try to hide my tears from him).
As I woke up today, probably the first time since BD the first thought on my mind wasn’t ”how can this nightmare be true that he will abandon me?”. Instead my first conscious thought was that I cannot remember how it felt to trust him. Not just that I do not trust him anymore and I used to rely on him 100%. But I can’t even remember how it felt.
I guess this is progress although it does not actually make me happy that this is the direction I must head. Today I have mostly felt at peace no matter what the future brings.
I hope that I can remember this calm and strong feeling when the next angry or sad or desperate day comes (probably tomorrow :P)
Your comments about trust and reliability really hit home for me as well. I can totally relate - the trust is almost completely gone and it’s sad in a way. My expectations for my W are none and/or nothing surprises me anymore. Your feelings are validated from me 👍🏻
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I am going to ask some things Treasur has referred to, but I've not seen answers and I might have missed them. I am also going to ask a few more questions you NEED to know the answers to.
Have you moved half of any saved money to your own, personal account?
Do you have legal representation/help?
Is there anything in place for child support when he's "not available " for more weeks than he is available?
Do you have your own means of income?
Do you trust him to only take his own items from the house if you are not there?
With only one car, what will you do for transportation when he is not available and has the car?
UM mentioned earlier that MLCers go through money like water. Mine went through $20,000 usd in one month. He had no idea where it went. (I had already separated our finances). When he moved out, he took many things that were personally mine. And then he'd sneak in when I wasn't home to take more until I changed the lock. I had our son (D was away at college) 97% of the time, and he never paid child support. Ever. I hadn't been employed full time for 14 years, and had to go find a job that worked with being able to drop and pick up my son from school. I had to scrimp to get D through her last year of college.
I tell you these things because, as was previously said, the man you knew does not exist at this time and maybe never will again. It doesn't matter what you do, you can jump through every hoop he throws at you and it will not be enough. You don't smile enough? If you did then it would be you smile too much. That is how an MLCer mind works. You will see glimpses of the man you knew, but they are fleeting. Place no importance on it.
So what should you do? Take care of yourself and the kids, in every way you can. Divide money evenly, keep your half safe. You cannot trust your H right now. If he should come back from MLC he'll be glad you saved some of the money. Make sure you continue to have good times with the kids. And think long and hard about "making" the kids go to their fathers. Give them time to adjust and grieve the loss of their family unit.
You can stand for your marriage, but an MLCer is an out of control freight train, imo. Make sure you are standing to the side and not in the direct path.
Keep the focus on protecting yourself and your kids.
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Almost everybody knows that we are separating and he has midlife crisis. Some know more. Since he announced that he is moving out, I saw no reason to keep it a secret any more. These are my relatives and this situation could be more than a little awkward for H… but I trust the people to be civil it is my niece’s party after all.
Unfortunately we only have one car and it is kind of difficult to get there otherwise.
OTOH I have only twice seen a monster that actually scared me. Almost all the time he is more polite and friendly than normally (he used to be a bit cranky) and like ”sorry that things went this way” so the drive SHOULD be okay.
Good that you have told people. They don’t need to know every detail imho but it is harder for people to support you and the kids if they don’t know some of the facts.
Again jmo the one car issue….is it in your name or his?….if you are determined to share the drive, then I’d encourage YOU to regain a little control by being the driver. But tbh, if the car is yours, he can afford to buy or rent one if he could afford to set up a new apartment, right? And if the car is his, you will need your own car when he moves out, right? And if the car is shared, and he or you have some rough idea that this will continue, I’d encourage you to think again…you really don’t want to be relying on these folks to keep their word or for anything important, sharing it will make reduced contact harder and I doubt you’d like to drive around in something that may serve as his part-time ow lurve taxi!
We do get it. Right now your brain is struggling to balance the h that was with the h you see right in front of you now. And you really, really want to believe in the reality of the h that was so you have a default lean towards the ‘old’ way of doing things, like sharing the drive to a family event. Maybe you’re even a bit frightened of rocking the boat even more by changing things or by how he might react when/if you start saying No to things?
We’ve all been there so we do get it.
All we can share is our hard-earned experience that, if someone can choose to move out after decades and be obviously hoping to pursue ow (or have already done so), they are focused on their wants not your needs. Regardless of their words, they don’t actually care much about what happens to you right now and it is safer and wiser to set up things in a way which allows you to be as independent of them as possible. And truthfully, that is the pretty predictable consequence that comes along with someone choosing to leave, isn’t it? Lots of things, big and small, will have to be done differently and grasping that early on protects you from more chaos and positions you just as well if you choose to stand or not. He’s leaving…so you are allowed to accept that reality and adapt how you live accordingly.
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Thank you TheShore, Offroad and Treasur!
It is slowly sinking in, bit by bit, that the man I knew and loved is gone. I am here at the cabin with someone who looks like him, acts mostly like him but is a complete stranger and does not care a lot about what happens to me.
I will try to answer the questions.
Have you moved half of any saved money to your own, personal account?
Do you have legal representation/help?
Is there anything in place for child support when he's "not available " for more weeks than he is available?
Do you have your own means of income?
Do you trust him to only take his own items from the house if you are not there?
With only one car, what will you do for transportation when he is not available and has the car?
We both have x amount of money invested for old age, this was to help with pension. Then I have half of the cottage which is worth y. And he has y amount of money that he has aquired by investing secretly from me. (WTH?!) they are in separate accounts. The sum x is not life changing but would take me through 2-3 years with no other income. House is owned 50-50 and only half of the mortgage has been paid off. If one of us were to file for divorce the assets would be divided 50/50 and then it would be his problem if he spends down all he has. As we are still officially married, if he wastes all his money he is entitled to half of what I own. But I will not be responsible for his debts. So yeah I should probably file right away. But don’t wanna do that :'(
(He hasn’t actually wanted to do that, has twice monstered at me ”let’s file immediately” and when I answered in shock ”okay if that’s what you want” his answer has been ”no I don’t want that!” )
As for legal representation i have avoided answering the question as I haven’t contacted a lawyer yet and I know I should. Also afraid of what it will cost. I did get recommendations from relatives for two lawyers but the one I would have preferred will have a baby and be on maternity leave for nobody knows how long. As I come home i must contact the other lawyer. I do not really know what to ask them? How to protect my half of the cabin, at least.
I have my own means of income, i work in healthcare and have reasonably good wage but the job is physically taxing. I have stayed at home w/ the kids for 7 years as they were small but at the moment I have worked 3.5 days a week, at two different places. I did manage to get some extra shifts at one of the places for the time being. I like the arrangement I have at the moment, but maybe need to look for a full time job at some point. This should not be a problem except for my back pain.
I do trust H to take only his items? We have so much stuff. More concerned that he will leave so much of his stuff! But if he takes something that is important and valuable to me, well then that just tells me more about him doesn’t it? We don’t really have much valuables.
As for the car it’s ownership is in his name but as we are married it is in practice both of ours. I have been using it the majority of time. Because I have been taking the kids everywhere and running errands. He has taken the bus to work. I have frankly assumed that the car will stay in my yard and use. He doesn’t like the car it is a SUV. But if he takes it I can get a cheap new (used) car. My other workplace where I will now work 1-3 times a week is too far by public transport. I wouldn’t like to share the car on a who needs it today basis like we have done. I would prefer NC except for the kids business. I think as for the car we can see how things move forward. H also made some noises about buying an Audi or a Mercedes-Benz… because they are such reliable cars (he has never been the kind of man who is interested in cars, who is this stranger?)
And Treasur you are so right, my brain is struggling to keep up with reality. Thank you guys for pushing me onwards! Because there s no going back.
Edited to add: there is no way to make him pay anything as long as we are not divorced. As far as I know the law just expects married people to take care of each other. After filing for D Iwould get something but it is hard to calculate. Depends also on how much they will stay at their dad’s in reality. I am so lucky to have my own profession. And there are some relatives who can support to some measure. Me and the kids won’t end up begging in a gutter at least.
And I will not force them to go to their dad’s place. The 14 year old is quite angry. Other two are trying to be so nice to him. It breaks my heart. None of the kids want any counseling! I wonder if I should make them go, and at what point.
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I’m guessing you feel pretty overwhelmed right now and your head is buzzing with questions and problems.
I’m assuming too - bc it’s textbook - that your h is moving out in a few days and has NOT laid out a proposed written plan on how he thinks finances and practicalities might work in this new ‘separated but still married’ state? The fact that even something as small (but important) as the car uncertainty leads me to assume that, but of course I could be wrong. Am I?
And realistically, if YOU have proposed a plan, I imagine that a) getting his serious attention is difficult and b) you want to trust his word and good intentions, but are no longer sure you can. That is quite reasonable of course bc if someone reneges on big promises, it is foolish to assume they will not renege on smaller ones….when someone breaks trust, the onus is on them to show that they can be trusted again not the other way round! (Although MLC folks are staggeringly self-centred and tend not to think this way lol)
So I’m going to suggest you change your short-term window and adopt a triaging mindset. And it is often necessary, in order to triage anything as you know professionally, to get more information.
Therefore I’d suggest that is the purpose of talking to a lawyer.
Information only.
You don’t have to follow their advice. You don’t even have to retain them or use them if further down the line you decide you need a lawyer.
Just information.
From the cheap seats over here, it sounds as if you need to know how the law where you live treats separation legally and financially. What your options are, and the legal and financial risks or benefits of different options. What you are allowed to legally say No or Not Now to. And what your kid’s legal rights are to say the same. And finally what legally enforceable obligations and rights your h has a parent and co-owner of various big assets once he moves out. That’s it.
That’s it.
Information only.
We get it. We understand how heart-wrenching it is to go to see a lawyer and have a discussion you never imagined yourself having. And knowing that they have seen it all a hundred times before whilst to you this is your h, your family and your life…and you are so hoping that your situation will not turn out like those hundreds of other cases. (I cried continuously through my first meeting with my lawyer and tbh I was still in deep shock. Which made information-gathering a bit harder as my brain wasn’t at its best - if I could go back and redo it, I would have taken a friend to be my spare brain!)
So, just think of it as triage information.
And just like a medical triage, there are probably some basic standard bits of information you need, right? Maybe start with a list of 10 bits of info you think you need and write them down?
Keep it simple. Keep it factual.
Just see it as information-gathering. Xxx
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Some possible questions for the lawyer:
Is it worth documenting the back pain? I ask bc maybe that shows a limitation in the number of days you are expected to work or for how many more years
Is it worth documenting your current standard of living PRIOR to taking on more hours? I ask bc in the US it would factor into alimony and child support payments.
How can you secure the cabin? Does it matter if it was yours prior to marriage or received as inheritance after getting married?
How do you account for the monies that he kept hidden? Do you strike while the iron is hot and he hasn´t yet spent that on mid-life "must haves"?
Is there the ability to be legally separated but not yet divorced? Would that safeguard you from his debts and safeguard your monies?
As a stranger many miles away I beg of you to get the legal advice that will secure your financial future in the sturdiest way EVEN IF it means you being the one to file for separation or divorce. I know that the fear is that if you file he will interpret it as done forever but they are so frikin wishy washy in their thinking that you have to do what is best for you. If you do file, you could say that you did it in order to ensure that they kids have security and that if he makes his way back your door is open. I don´t know if this image helps or is even applicable but it is what has come to mind: Your marriage is a boat. For some reason he pulled the plug in the bottom of the boat. Water is pouring in. Do you wait for him to say put on life jackets since he´s the one who caused the crisis or do you act in your best interest to save yourself and the kids? It is time to deal with the reality of the now and that means doing whatever it takes to protect yourself.
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Thank you again Treasur and forthetrees!
All the comments on this thread are so good, I keep going back and rereading them.
I guess I need to be a grown woman and lawyer up. I will schedule a meeting with the second lawyer that was recommended to me. Very good points and ideas for what to discuss with the lawyer. Will write them up and take notepaper and pen with me. And I will also stare the beast in the eye and calculate a monthly budget for me and the kids living in our house.
I have been feeling so overwhelmed and bewildered (and frankly beaten and stomped on even though there has been NO physical violence) that it is hard to function but this is something that needs to be done soon. I have been concentrating on my feelings and emotional survival but this Forum has helped me so much you don´t believe it (or maybe you do) and I realize it is time to think of finances going forward. (The biggest impact this charade has on the boys, but I cannot even let those thougts enter my consciousness or I become so mad that *I* want to divorce immediately and break things and scream! But seeing the lawyer is also helping the kids.)
H does not indeed have any written or verbal plan, originally after BD he was like: i will rent a cheap small studio and go there to think about my life and probably drink awful lot and become so depressed I can´t work. (BD was after WW had the same day told H that she doesn´t want PA and she has repeated that at a later date).
Okay so I said that you are a father and that isn´t possible. He then thought he would come visit the kids ar our house. I told him he can´t just come and go as he pleases and date women or drink all the rest of the time. I suggested living in the house week/week and getting the studio for him for every other week and on his child weeks I could have stayed at my parents´. So the kids could live at home all the time. Of course this wasn´t what he wants as he could not then have made it appear to WW that we are divorced. So, he ended up getting a bigger flat and agreeing on a week/week arrangement. I agreed because at that point I was so mad and thought I need child-free time to date too. I have since changed my mind and would like to have the boys more, as him having them so much is only going to make running the everyday life more difficult and I know he is not up to doing half of the life admin. Oh well, i need to step back as much as possible and only intervene if it looks like one of the kids will truly suffer. A missed friend´s birthday or going to school at the wrong time and missing a field trip will not be my responsibility on dad week.
H has no plan for finances, car, dog, anything! If I try to discuss he will be demanding more and more to himself or accusing me of greediness so I have stopped discussing these things with him. I am kinda hoping that he will keep paying the mortgage and leave the car if we just don´t discuss things any more. (I know seeing a lawyer will help.) It seems he just needs to run away from me in some kind of panic? (Funny that he can spend time as family at the cabin however?)
Also at the cottage H is almost all the time like his old self, but his brain is NOT functioning normally. For example two days ago I was playing chess with S8 (now 9). H came to observe. H is better at chess than me or the kid, but as he would comment on our moves he couldn´t keep it in his mind for two moves who is playing white and who is playing black? Ok I don´t know is his brain is just this messed up, or if he is thinking of WW and/or the tinder women all the time, but that is not normal for him. He is normally very good at board games and math and can concentrate totally on stuff like that. There have been several instances when he cannot count a simple thing like 5+4+2 is more than 6+3? He practically did math for a living before his new position at work!
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@ things struck me....
First - Your MLCH is now inhabited by this guy (you have to be a "Men In Black" fan here)
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/-lnDSxylY6kAAAAC/edgar-mib.gif)
Or, if you aren't familiar with that movie, this guy ("Invasion of the Body Snatchers")
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExaG5sMTRsamoydDhiazA5NnA0ZzRka3MxZzhzNmRlMHYweHFxY3A3OCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/UGba4CcQG8T9m/giphy.gif)
He is no longer your H. Like you noted., the body walks and talks like H and, while the lights are on, there is no one home....
Second, the math thing...
His brain has....
(https://media.tenor.com/9-Tz3Tl_ILsAAAAM/doug-maclean-doug.gif)
If at all possible, you need to get things legally separated, especially if he's talking about a new car. An Audi (In Germany, we say that an Audi is a car with 5 zeros - 4 on the grill and one behind the wheel) or Benz will set him back 30K+ for a used one that is less than 3 years old - They are NOT cheap.
While not discussing finances with him is akin to not poking the bear, at some point, the rubber needs to meet the road and he will have to be made painfully aware of the consequences of the actions that he is taking - those include supporting his kids, ensuring that he can support himself (once he moves out, you need to make sure that if he DOES drink himself into a depression that YOU don't end up getting stuck paying for him..... )
Like Treasur said, the meeting with a lawyer is for info only. You do not need to retain them or even start a process but you NEED to know where you stand and what rights you have. Just because he is going off into la la land fantasizing about doing the Mattress Mambo with Fantasy OW, doesn't mean that he gets "Get out of all responsibilities " Free card ( you know, like the "Get Out of Jail Free" card in Monopoly). This is real life now and not some fantasy land where the clouds are all made of cotton candy, there are little fluffy puppy dogs with waggely tails everywhere and unicorns running around farting clouds of rainbow glitter.
He can demand all he wants but knowing what he can actually get is going to be , for you, VERY important information. The cabin thing is a perfect example. If your parents built it and have given you a 50% share, does that share really need to be split? Did you have that before the marriage? There are LOTS of questions that need to be answered. Things like his "secret Investment Stash of Cash" for example. Likely there may be (or will be when the investments are sold) taxes due. Who pays them? Since you didn't know about the secret stash, you shouldn't be on the hook unless you are going to reap the benefits....
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Hi Ursa,
I got a genuine belly laugh out of your explanation! That was good for me. And in addition it makes perfect sense ::)
Me and H are both MiB fans btw, we rewatched the movies this spring. Funny, how we like the same things. Same taste in music and films, and we both like board games, nature trails, crosswords and sudokus. But at the marriage counselor he said, he has been thinking what it would be like to do those things we do together, with somebody else. Now where is the exploding brain smiley when I NEED it?!
Uh oh when he predicted that he will drink himself to depression and total ruin I just thought that in addition to being sad in itself, that would also mean he can’t support me and the kids financially. But it never crossed my mind that I might end up supporting him. But it is true if he spends down all he has he will be entitled to half of my half of what we own atm. And I could indeed from what I read, be obligated to support him even after divorce, if he is unable to make a living , even if the kids do not stay with him. (But only if he was already that way before D)I do not actually think he will let himself go that way but then again I remember being surprised by him before.
So I guess I need to discuss with the lawyer, and probably have the divorce paper ready and discuss which triggers should make me actually file. Like maybe, buying an expensive Audi would cause me to file immediately (before he totals the car). Something like that. Only it will be difficult to know what he is doing as we don’t live together and have little contact.
This is difficult.
As for today, we were eating breakfast and I saw him chatting on his cellphone in their workplace chat and WW was there. Didn’t want to appear interested at all so I couldn’t crane my head so I would have seen what was discussed. I just started doing a crossword puzzle and he leaned over to do that with me. I also just now got a compliment on looking sexy. None of this has any meaning to me.
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The cabin thing is kind of stupid.
My parents gifted half to me and half to my sister as they are getting older and the upkeep was too much for them so it was stressing them out. This gift giving and signing the papers happened 9/2024. So H had already fallen head over heels forWW! I discussed with him is it okay that my parents gift me half of the cottage and H okeyed it. Had I known of his infatuation I would have adviced my parents differently!
In their testaments, spousal rights to inherited property are denied from spouses of daughters. But as they gifted me my half of the cabin they left that clause out of the papers, as H has helped fix and build things at the cabin and he was supposed to be the worlds’ most trustworthy man and the guy who would do most of the repairs there in the future (my sister’s spouse is no good). And also my parents wanted to show H they appreciate everything he did there while they still owned the cabin.
Well stupid is an understatement in this case but I cannot think of a better word.
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You might be able to get him to sign an additional document with the clause protecting your ownership rights while he is still in the phase of feeling some guilt and not wanting to look like the bad guy. Realistically why would he want to come to the cabin if you are separated and he would have to be the ultimate $h!te to make you buy him out or sell to give him "his share." BUT... I never stopped being surprised by the next new low that came my way.
If the trigger for filing for a D is after he buys the expensive car, that is too late. I get it, I truly get it, you don´t want to be the one to rock the boat or do anything to jeopardize the reconciliation. Unfortunately he has already put it all in jeopardy and at this point you are trying to safeguard what is left. The track record on this site is that those who acted sooner got better deals than those who waited it out longer. Usually that is due to an OW pressuring the MLCer to short the LBS so that she can benefit from the deal.
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Thank you forthetrees and thank you everybody who encouraged me to talk to a lawyer! I will do that in the beginning of August. Probably would not have had the courage to do it so soon if not for your advice!
I will not report here accurately what the lawyer tells me, just in case. H is up late every night reading about relationships. Not something he ever did before. Hope he doesn’t find this place.
I did ask him if he will leave me his car keys. Because if he needs space it is not a good idea to share it on a ”who needs the car more tomorrow” basis as we have done. From where we live, most places where we go to (grocery store, kids’ hobbies, a big mall with everything one needs) can be reached by foot and public transport is also okay. My 2nd job is the furthest away and that is where I will pick up more shifts.
He did ask if he can borrow the car sometimes if he needs to drive the kids somewhere like a doctor’s appointments. I said yes, figuring it will be an opportunity for positive contact and also maybe avoid him really getting the audi…
He has been really sensible, no monster, but it has been so weird at the cottage with everybody playing happy family. Tomorrow he goes. I would like to ask him if he is really happy with his decision but I know I probably should not do it? He is an adult and could cancel moving out if he wanted to.
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Actions over words is one of the things we LBS learn, I’m afraid. You’re quite right….whether he is ‘happy’ or not, moving out is a choice. And it’s a big one that will change a lot of things for all of you, some that you can foresee and others that neither of you might be able to foresee yet. So imho, we learn to accept that what matters most is what people actually DO over what they say or how they might feel about what they do. Bc actions create effects and it is the effects that we LBS often find ourselves struggling with.
Nonetheless I imagine that this is going to be a tough week for you - I can only advise you to go gently with yourself and try to plan something small and pleasing for yourself as a bit of heart balm. X
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Yo que tú (If I were you), I would not ask him if he´s happy with the move-out decision. I also would refrain from commenting at all about why he is leaving the cabin. Sooner or later you will reach a place where you do not ask or say things that provide him an opportunity to give you an emotional kick in the teeth. Remember, you would be asking an emotionally dysregulated person about their emotional state which is quite volatile. The answer is meaningless bc it is literally a moment in time. The answer tells you nothing but the answer may reverberate in your mind for a very long time especially if you interpret it as hurtful. Asking him would be an unforced error.
The forum chorus of suggesting that you seek legal advice is bc we´ve all been shafted one way or another as the LBS along the journey and we don´t want the next LBS to suffer yet another blow when it is avoidable.
When he leaves the cabin you will likely feel a huge sense of a decrease in tension and I hope you and your kids enjoy the rest of the time there going into nature to revel in Mother Nature´s wonders.
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2 things here:
1) As Treasur noted - words mean absolutely ZIP NADA NICHTS to a Mid-Lifer. Words are just noises that come out of their mouths and off the tip of their tongues at any moment in time without a real thought process behind them for the most part. Consistent actions are the measure here... If the words happen to match the CONSISTENT actions, so much the better but .... Believe nothing of what a Mid-Lifer says and only about 50% of what you see them do unless it is consistent.
2) With respect to #1 - FTT and Treasur both said it.... and I hinted <snort> at it above. What you'll get as an answer will be a word salad without real meaning. It will be either what he thinks you want to hear on order to not be the bad guy in your eyes or it will be some sort of blame game where you are the cause for every thing bad in his entire life or it will be some sort of beneath the belt blah blah blah designed to inflict the greatest possible amount of damage....
You are dealing with enough as it is.
Once he heads back to whatever rock he has decided to crawl under, I expect that you might just be able to relax a bit and enjoy the rest of your time at the cabin with your kids....
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Your are getting stellar advice here, I would urge you read it all carefully and no matter how much it may not what you want to hear what is being said take heed.
What I wanted to add is this: your MLCer is living in a fractured world of feeling and incoherent and incompatible thoughts. He is escaping, not in reality, in denial. I kind of like to think of it as living in a funhouse hall of mirrors as your entire world of feeling and thinking. Every time you have the urge to engage, believe in, or hope for some reality you are CHOOSING to join him in this fractured existence. If I asked you would you have a serious conversation, make plans with, or hang your hopes on a person who is having a psychosis of some sort what would you to that?
Plan and act accordingly. Including get a lawyer now. I would tell you the amount of money that has been burned through and some of the circumstances that people have been left in because they didn't want to protect themselves. But there is a very large record right here if you read the forums. I personally know at least 3 LBSes whose financial lives will never recover in their lifetimes.
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No no, although I am not happy at all with the situation, I recognize that the advice is stellar! Everybody is spot on again.
He left yesterday. I feel very alone in the world at the moment even though I have my kids, my relatives, and some lovely friends. (So grateful for them all!). H couldn´t look me in the eye at all yesterday (but we had sex?) Maybe I was taken advantage of there, not that I suffered, but maybe I paved the way back a little, in case he wants to take that way someday. Who knows as he doesn´t (based on not wanting to actually divorce yet).
It is very hard, not knowing at all what the future will bring. Although of course we never really do but I liked the illusion of certainty and safety. I am trying to concentrate on the now, on being there for the kids, and my emotional and financial survival, and not dwell on possible outcomes but it is a challenge. Will he want to come back or not? Will I want him anymore? Will I find somebody else eventually or be alone? I just keep reminding myself that time will tell.
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I am having a good day today. Probably because I have been busy doing things. I feel that everything will be okay some years from now.
This may seem self-evident but I will write it up for myself for when I have a bad day again and don´t know how I will survive:
At the moment I am alone (except for the kids of course!). I can do this, I was living alone (and without kids) before meeting H. There are many different outcomes for this situation. H may want to come back or not. I may find someone else or not. If H wants to reconnect, I might want to do that - or not. In any case, life for me will at some point be good.
There.
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Yes, there is the convincing of oneself that you are going to be ok- eventually. I used to tell myself, "The only way past it is through it."
Homework assignment- go to a farmers´market and find produce that epitomizes the height of summer for you. Make a dish that reminds you of the simplicity of being a kid. Prep the meal with your kiddos. Relish every bite.
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H let me know by text yesterday that he will not join me and the kids for niece’s confirmation party + the two hour drive each way. Text message said: sorry, i can’t do it. He did ask to write his name on the same congratulations card though and wanted to gift niece some money (he is her godfather). I said (texted) that is okay and we agreed that he can come to our house to sign the card today.
As I came home from the cottage w/ kids today, I noticed that there was some of h´s stuff still in the living room. Some empty moving boxes and some items. As he came to sign the card I asked him to take out the stuff. He said okay, I promised he can borrow the car. So as he was packing up the car i went outside to chat. I was sad that he is not coming to the party as I had done some small renovations at the cottage and also braved a difficult treetop adventure route at a nearby amusement park (never done even the easy ones as I am afraid of heights so h has always gone with the kids) and I had thought the long drive would be a natural situation to brag about my accomplishments. So I went outside to discuss. He was uncomfortable at first but soon it started to get better.
So, I asked him if he is all right. (Living in his new place). He said yes. That he is not feeling depressed or anxious like before. He did show really weird facial expressions though. Don’t know if he felt bad telling me that or what? Then he told me that he does have some feeling but he doesn’t know what it is. (Did I say he has no emotional skills?) Well i said to him that this whole thing is really odd because I was happy being married with you. Odd how two people can be in such a different place. But i did keep asking him last winter, what is wrong and why he is depressed. And I got no answer so I couldn’t have know. And in hindsight there were of course some things that could be done differently.
I then asked him about a certain habit of mine, if it had bothered him. He said no. And he told me that it is no use thinking if I should change something because it will not help, there is nothing i did wrong. So i asked him if it is his thing that is the problem. And he said guess so… but don’t know what it is. And that he should probably see his friends and start an old hobby of his again. Well I have been telling him that for years. It was just work and weight training at home for him.
We both cried a little. But I feel really bad now. He has no other woman to go to, as far as I know the Woman at Work is not interested. So he is just off to search for himself. It feels so bad that he can’t even bear living with me for the childrens’ sake and is rather alone than with me. I feel hopeless at the moment, and also stupid because I still want to hope. I knew that our marriage was in the center of my life, but yet I didn’t truly know how important it was for me until I lost it. (Well, he didn’t want to file for D … yet). At least I didn’t ask any stupid questions about love, or whether we still have any hope as a couple!
We do have a MC session reserved exactly 1 month from now. He brought that up and I thought he will say lets cancel it, because the overall tone of the discussion was so unenthusiastic about our relationship. But he didn’t say that so I said see you there then. And he said, we also need to stay in contact because of the kid’s arrangements. So I guess things could always be even worse than they are now. And he is going to IC as well, his health insurance will cover 10 sessions which is very little in my mind. But better that nothing. So I suppose I can do nothing but wait.
Forthetrees, you have such a good knack at enjoying the little things in life! This is what I also must try and keep doing at least for a little moment every day. And of course keep the everyday life rolling for the kids, dog and me. Although I am inclined to worry a lot about thing I can’t control (well why would one worry about things they CAN cotrol…?) but I tell myself it is also okay to worry a little, that it is only a feeling and so is crying, it is also okay that I cry a little every day and on some days a lot. That is only normal in this situation.
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I want to just say I'm sorry. It sounds like you are firmly in it right now and it is overwhelming. Even though you're going through this, you don't deserve this.
I had thought the long drive would be a natural situation to brag about my accomplishments.
I remember those invisible hopes and expectations. It was incredibly hard for me to unravel the interconnectedness of us. It was made even harder because I didn't want to! But when I was finally stably able to, it was like dropping a heavy weight I didn't realize I had on my back.
So, I asked him if he is all right. (Living in his new place). He said yes. That he is not feeling depressed or anxious like before. He did show really weird facial expressions though. Don’t know if he felt bad telling me that or what? Then he told me that he does have some feeling but he doesn’t know what it is. (Did I say he has no emotional skills?) Well i said to him that this whole thing is really odd because I was happy being married with you. Odd how two people can be in such a different place. But i did keep asking him last winter, what is wrong and why he is depressed. And I got no answer so I couldn’t have know. And in hindsight there were of course some things that could be done differently.
He can say he's not feeling depressed or anxious anymore. He might even believe it. I can't imagine undergoing a major life event like separating and moving out and feeling nothing but peace and contentment, even in the best possible circumstances. And it's reasonable to want insight into his choice, which impacts you considerably and which he undertook without consultation or consideration, but I don't believe he is capable of providing answers.
I then asked him about a certain habit of mine, if it had bothered him. He said no. And he told me that it is no use thinking if I should change something because it will not help, there is nothing i did wrong. So i asked him if it is his thing that is the problem. And he said guess so… but don’t know what it is. And that he should probably see his friends and start an old hobby of his again. Well I have been telling him that for years. It was just work and weight training at home for him.
I am glad you heard that it wasn't you. It must be frustrating to see him say he is the problem and yet... not change anything. I do not believe seeking insight from him about you will bring you anything of value.
We do have a MC session reserved exactly 1 month from now. He brought that up and I thought he will say lets cancel it, because the overall tone of the discussion was so unenthusiastic about our relationship. But he didn’t say that so I said see you there then. And he said, we also need to stay in contact [...].
I personally wouldn't read anything into this. In my own situation, marriage counseling did nothing except cost me money and upset me. It wasn't a "safe space" for me to share my experience, as anything I said was only used as ammunition against me. Any suggestions that the therapist made were only attempted by me; my ex-wife did not try at all. When my ex-wife would voice things in a session, they tended to make no sense to me (saying things vaguely like she was at the bottom of the societal hierarchy). For the things that I DID understand, she would phrase them in ways that I now believe were trying to manipulate the therapists into "siding" with her (e.g., "I only want to be in a relationship that values my mental health").
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Hi zartheit and thank you! You’re right this is overwhelming. Being at home and his desk missing, his mattress gone… he took so much of his stuff, he really moved out not just took a hiatus.
I admit it is a bit silly to hope that showing how competent and active I am will change his view on me. As we see less of each other every meeting seems important to plant positive seeds. Well I am at the moment not detached at all! Totally the opposite. Like I would do almost anything to get him back, even though when I look at his faults I don’t even like him that much. So many writers here say they had their spouse on a pedestal, wonder if that predisposes a relationship to MLC? And I have done it, too. But even now as I have become aware of what kind of person he really is, my skin misses his touch so much.
I would certainly like to be in the 5% whose spouse returns to them. Funny how the other favorable outcome, being happy without him, doesn’t seem nearly as tempting. Maybe only because I have no idea how it would look like? What would my daily routines be like? Would there be a new significant other and what would he be like? Where would I live? I can’t begin to imagine it. And I always preferred safety and familiarity, the good things I know instead of new experiences.
I must just start with making today an okay day.
As for the marriage counseling, it does seem to be all about him. Which is not surprising given as it seems we don’t have a marital problem (except of course him not wanting to be in a R with me :o) I feel that I want to hear what he is thinking and how he is doing. I have for half of my life been his confidante. But I must learn to let go of that as well. At least he is paying for the sessions … so it is only a waste of time for me.
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Dear Arctic, I remember the place you are in now. I remember having a huge H-sized hole in my life. I could not quite imagine another way of being. I remember thinking 'where will all that love go?' One of the most significant 'clicks' for me was really understanding that the marriage was a separate issue to the crisis. The marriage, for what it was after he'd taken a sledge hammer to it, would come second in any recovery process. You mention 5% of restored marriages - not sure where that comes from, but it does sound like a figure based on certain constants and conditions, like a maths exam or something :) In fact, it is the opposite, and it has many, many moving parts. This is not a situation where two people are working together toward an agreed goal of an A*.
Like it or not, you are both on different paths. For now. And you will change. And how you feel will change. And, personally, I think that is OK. To let that happen to you too. See what the universe throws you and be open to that.
Regarding putting the spouse on a pedestal. I did not do this with my xH - I am in the ex-fixer club. And in many ways, I think he put me on a pedestal. I notice a lot on this forum that BD happens when our attention on our spouses was redirected (sick child, stressful work situation, illness etc). By thinking that idealising your H sent him into crisis you are over playing your hand - no one person can make another go into crisis of this magnitude. The type of person that goes into this type of crisis doesn't have good coping skills, they are not emotionally resilient - they are like a bridge with a hairline crack, which has looked strong and functional for years, and then suddenly the weight of traffic becomes too much and it collapses (insert better metaphors here :) ).
Keep going - one step at a time. You've come so far already, even if you don't feel like it.
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I agree so much with what KayDee said here about allowing yourself to adapt and evolve, and slowly accepting that you don’t know what your perspective will be in the future. That sounds easy but I found it actually quite hard initially - many of us are accustomed to thinking we have a plan and that we have more control over how life goes than sometimes we do.
I suspect you may be hanging quite a lot of your hat in this MC date, particularly bc it sounds as if he scheduled and paid for it? That’s understandable but I would also try to be equally open-minded about that tbh. Why? Well, these folks seem to do one thing one week and the opposite the next week….he may not show up and if he does he may have no clear purpose for the MC or he may use it to vent or justify his actions. Or even use it as a bit of a centralised ‘sadz party’ where everyone is supposed to prioritise his current state. Have you asked, or has he stated, what HIS objective for MC is? And do you know what yours is? Bc that’s where any decent MC will start…so it’s worth taking time to think about your PoV imho. And it’s ok to say No beforehand or to put a condition on it or to leave the session if it seems that it is not going to meet your objectives or doesn’t feel like a safe and equal space. It is Ok to say No, Not Now or Not Like This.
Bc this isn’t just about him, my friend, this is also about you and your kids and your life. And you’re allowed a voice and a vote on that.
In a more positive slant, my xh did much the same - put a huge amount of effort into selecting and scheduling an MC. And of course that raised my hopes of fixing whatever was going on, that’s normal. And then he just didn’t show up and ignored all messages from me for several weeks after that…but the MC was a great individual therapist too and proved immensely helpful to me individually, so silver lining! I recall it was the first time I felt heard by someone who got it and that was life-saving at the time.
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Regarding crying you may find this interesting: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-microscopic-structures-of-dried-human-tears-180947766/
Emotional tears include a natural painkiller so your body knows what it needs.
As for marriage counseling, my ex paid for it and lied straight faced to the counselor. It was yet another layer of betrayal that I had to process. So I would say go to MC with the aim of observing not one of resolution. If you can somehow put yourself at an emotional distance to some degree, you may learn more about what the hell is going on in his sphere.
Joy does await you now and in the future, it´s an innate part of being human.
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Hi KayDee, Treasur and forthetrees!
Thank you for the link to the article forthetrees, not only was it interesting and beautiful, it also have me something else to think for a while! :)
KayDee, I’ll have to think about marriage being separate from the crisis. Hadn’t really considered that angle.
The 5% come from a post near the beginning of my journal, read a nasty reddit discussion where same figure was mentioned, and also I have been looking at the pages here on this Forum and very roughly it seems like there is 20 threads on a page of which about one is pink or purple. Very unscientific way of looking at it I am sure ;D (and of course many members have more than one thread) I was not in a good place as I wrote that part and feeling that the chances of reconciliation are so dim and yet that is the only outcome I desire… of course everything depends on the individuals and their situations, it is not possible to give any separated couple a prognosis in percents.
Thank you for reminding that I did not cause this crisis. The mind strives to find an explanation. But the hairline crack one makes more sense, and lacking coping skills of my H have been mentioned before - locking away all unpleasant feelings, sports and alcohol, but also just pressing on and on with gritted teeth and having a high stress tolerance. But everybody has a breaking point. The good thing is that H has been consistent in saying that I did not cause the crisis, I understand that many MLCers blame the spouse. So that’s a (admittedly thin) silver lining. He has also told me to not change anything in myself, but it is too late. Like it or not I am already changing in many ways and as for me I feel the end result will necessarily be something stronger, wiser and more pleasant to be around than I used to be. As for him, some change in him brought this crisis about or vice versa, but I always thought people develop in a better direction, grow and learn as it were, but his change is more like he’s going backwards toward teenage selfishness, while learning to lie and developing a tougher shell to better be able to tolerate hurting and harming other people. It’s like a Windows update after which many things don’t work like they’re supposed to and you liked the old version better anyways ;D
Treasur, you’re correct I am fixated on the MC session H reserved and will pay, just to have a date when something will happen. I HATE open-ended insecurity. My goals at the moment are hearing where he is in his processing (if there is a consistent thought or direction instead of the ever changing ones as he himself said his thoughts and wants are) and to have a chance to say something meaningful to him (I actually try to keep contact near to the minimum, especially R related stuff, to respect his need for time and space). Only i am not sure what to tell him. I don’t want to be too angry and drive him away, I don’t want to dwell on the past… but also not pursue. Maybe I will tell him that I have loved him as he is, now he is thinking so much of his clothes and looks, so what if someone falls for him because he looks good on the outside. Is it more valuable and important to him than what we had? I consider myself a real and honest Person and I thought he was one as well.
His goals, I am sure he has no idea. Maybe he is coming and paying just to assuage his guilt? I think if H doesn’t show up I will probably file for divorce (unless there is a VERY good explanation like a train wreck). No sense in telling him that though, can’t make a horse drink etc. If he doesn’t show up I will cry to the therapist and also get a valuable piece of information on H (that he is not interested enough in MC to show up). H will pay the bill anyways.
The control issue is a big one for me. I have FOO issues. Mom was/is apparently an undiagnosed covert narcissist. Dad was always either at work or hiding behind a newspaper. When I was 10 mom got diagnosed with cancer, dad escaped to work and nobody told us kids anything, but we knew mom could die and she was in the hospital for long stretches of time (so it felt at least). My little sister started calling me mother! :o And I took the responsibility very seriously even if it felt like too much to bear.
Mom recovered (miraculously as I was told later) and is almost 80 and still going strong! But I have battled insecurity and anxiety the rest of my life. H has been the first and only safe adult in my life and the R with him has allowed me lots of personal growth which is why this betrayal is a double whammy. I have partially learned to come to terms with God laughing as people plan their lives, but H’s MLC and him telling he doesn’t love me any more is definitely something I could not at all see coming.
Many MLCers seem to have FOO issues but H actually doesn’t? He told me he thinks he has had a TOO SAFE childhood which is why he takes a risk like this?! Only, his biological father did the same trick to my MIL as H was newborn. He dumped MIL with almost exactly the same words (that he doesn’t love MIL anymore, is in love with another woman and she is not interested but he wants a D because then the is at least a small chance he gets the OW). They were about 25 so not MLC but H’s biological father has a lot of FOO issues. Anyways, as he has never actually been in H’s life, i think maybe this thing is genetic :( (H has always been angry at his biological father and has judged him harshly so maybe that counts as FOO issue. Funny he can do the same $hit himself…)
This is probably too long already so I will quit rambling now.
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I admit it is a bit silly to hope that showing how competent and active I am will change his view on me.
His crisis is not about you and not about your marriage. Doesn't matter how competent we were/are....he most likely would have had a crisis regardless of who he had married.
I would certainly like to be in the 5% whose spouse returns to them.
Unfortunately, there are no reliable statistics to say how many spouses return. On this forum, many come for a while and then leave so we have no idea what happened in their lives down the road. Years later, there may be reconciliations, but the LBSer has long since left this site.
Even with the best research, it's hard to really define who is having a MLC..there is no diagnostic criteria. Information gathered would all be anecdotal.
Many LBSer's are not willing to spend years of their lives in "limbo" and they find another relationship.
Many LBSer's do not want the MLCer back...they have caused too much pain.
Each case is very much an individual situation. I did find I wanted to read the return stories and believe so much that we would be one of those. Many told me that they thought in my case it was likely he would return, I could never believe that he would never come back home.....
You are very very early on into this journey. Of course you miss him and the life you once had. Totally normal.
I must just start with making today an okay day.
Sometimes, it is minute by minute, breath by breath and it is very hard work to get to a place of calm and peace...and it takes a long time.
Listen to what you know internally, listen to what your body needs...start to dream about the things that you wish to do and enter into new activities meeting new people and finding out who you are without him.
Doing these things does not mean that he will not come back..but we often advise "to live as though he is never coming back" if that makes sense.
As for the FOO issues....I find that Erik Erickson's life stages are helpful...within each stage there are developmental stages that need to be successfully met, or you go into the next stage without having resolved certain things and later in life, may need to resolve those things.
It may not necessarily be a FOO issue, perhaps the MLCer was sexually abused as a child, perhaps they had some serious illness, maybe they were bullied...there are so many things from childhood that could have an impact as well as biological changes, fear of dying and perhaps the most imprtant is "the mother of all depressions" as they search for something, anything that will fill the emptiness and the void within.
We can do nothing to fix this...for we were not the cause.
Time will allow you to incorporate what the vets here are saying, each of us coming from our own experiences so take what is "advised" not as gosepl truth, but as one way that one poster lived through this.
I am so sorry you are going through this...I do believe that when our lives get blown up, it really is a trauma and finding a therapist that specialized in PTSD and trauma was the most helpful in my case.
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Hi xyzcf (hope I got that right ;))!
Live as if he is never coming back makes perfect sense to me! I’ll have to think what it means for me as I was already very happy with my life. But probably I will need to add something to fill the H shaped hole in the middle of my life right now. A new relationship/dating does not feel like a good idea at the moment, as I am too heartbroken for anything good to come out of it.
A friend told me earlier on to not worry, that I will find someone better. I answered that that is what I’m afraid of. Well the thought does not scare me any more.
I’m not sure where to place H’s developmental problem on Ericson’s stages. But somewhere in the teen years or young adulthood definitely. He has spoken a lot after BD about him being so shy around girls and women, and not getting to have much experiences. Also he has said that his appearance has bothered him for all of his life! He mentioned this maybe one or twice as we were dating. But never since. And IMHO he is striking. (I wish he truly was butt ugly so nobody would want him but me :P) But that is his own experience. Those things seem kind of trivial in my mind, not worth blowing up your family, but to him they apparently aren’t trivial. Also he definitely has great fear of both death and old age with the ailments it brings.
So the shyness and perceived ugliness could be the hairline cracks and aging (cholesterol meds and some joint pains) are the proverbial load that broke the bridge. Nothing drastic like the death of a relative. S17 turning seventeen has left H bewildered though, he has multiple times wondered where did the time go…?
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Another website calls it ‘untangling the skein of f**kedupness’ and tbh it’s a relentless challenge to try to get inside someone else’s head. We all do it for a while - humans are designed to try to read patterns and trauma tends to make us double down on that, it’s normal. It’s part of what usually brings us here, isn’t it? That effort to understand things that make no sense to us at all.
But it’s rarely very useful imho 😝
So we all do it for a while until we gradually stop doing it so much and turn our eye towards ourselves and things we can do something about.
I don’t know if you have had therapy on the past as part of managing your anxiety but, jmo, you may find it more constructive to focus on the messages in your head from your own FOO than to worry about his. It’s so normal and reasonable that as small humans in challenging circumstances we learn how to operate and then carry those principles forward in our lives bc they probably worked well back then. It’s tough then to realise as an adult and as life evolves that they may not be serving us quite so well now. And it’s hard work to rewire ourselves without a bit of support from a good therapist or coach. And tbh if you already wrestle with anxiety and then someone upends ypur life, it seems reasonable to me that you might need to refresh your toolbox! So, my friend, I’d encourage you to consider finding a good IC who understands trauma and anxiety…if only bc you can exercise more control over your head than you can over someone else’s lol
And no need to feel worry about being judged here - plenty of us struggled hard with anxiety and/or depression post BD, some of us were even diagnosed with PTSD, even if we had not experienced these things before. We know what it’s like and we know how overwhelming it can feel to be in your shoes. The good news is that most of us also know what a difference it can make to really really look after yourself perhaps in ways you have not before and lay down the burden of our ‘magic mind reading hat’ and looking after others as a priority in these circumstances.
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Hi Treasur!
I have had therapy due to my anxiety and I had thought I have pretty much resolved my FOO issues, because of therapy and because H who comes from a healthy family (stepdad raised him as one of his own children) and has supported me in his simple way when I struggled with my emotions. Without the work I have done, I would probably be much worse off now. But the insecurity and fear of future and unknown are back in force now, worsened by the abandonment and feeling of worthlessness that tries to creep in. I have a therapy session scheduled, I think I will also get ten sessions and after that will probably need to look for EMDR or something. I feel I am done talking and talking about my childhood issues!
Anyways, what I have been thinking I should journal about, is that I feel I have also had a quiet and successful midlife transition, starting a little bit before H began to be depressed (2-3 years ago?). I had real low ferritine value and was so tired with nightly sweats and joint pains. I thought it was perimenopause because the symptoms fit! Then it got worse until I got diagnosed and after a few days of taking iron supplement I started to miraculously feel better! But this triggered me thinking of my age. I started pondering that if there was something I want to accomplish in life, I no longer saw an infinite horizon but instead understood that the time was limited and I should act now. Only, I came to the conclusion that I am content with my life and what I have!
Another thing I had to ponder was the number of children. For a long time I wanted a fourth child and that was something I now felt I had to decide. H didn’t even want the 3rd child (he loves S9 so much now!). So I decided that 4th child is out of the question, but it took some processing to accept that the time on that choice is running out. I actually mentioned to H a few times that a woman of my age is unlikely to become pregnant any more. I thought it would make him happy! That was definitely a mistake. Apparently the lizard brain likes to fertilize females… Anyways, I am now at peace with having 3 children and that is it, and also had no fear of the approaching menopause. Of course it would be easy if you think there’s someone by your side who will always love you :(
My mental well-being has also in the past few years been challenged because of a couple of my own health problems. And the worst was S17’s health. He was struggling so bad, for 2,5 years he could hardly go to school at all and was in bad pain half of the time and started getting depression. I managered all his doctors’ visits and therapy, but so often he was in too bad a shape to even go to the physical therapy sessions :o but I thought I can’t always depend on H for mental support and learned to take it easy and soothe myself (thank God I have done that work!) i thought H’s then mild depression was also caused by S17’s situation, but apparently he didn’t let it affect himself that much! And he has been telling me that I feel too old and that is his problem with me! Well sorry, I am not old but I am middle aged and I have graciously accepted that, he has not!
I think the health problems of both me and S17 actually affected our M and his crisis even if H can’t see that. Because I have been more turned inwards and concentrating on my own growth and taking care of S17, H has apparently felt we no longer have a connection. His depression didn’t help as I often felt he isn’t interested in chatting with me, sometimes he wouldn’t even answer. Instead of telling me what is the problem, he confided in WW (age 32) and that was the beginning of the usual story.
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Well, all that hard work suggests you probably have a pretty good toolbox - what kinds of things are you doing more of or less of right now which you find helpful? I often found basic stuff helped me - walked a lot, stopping to consciously breathe, approaching tasks sometimes from the side or in smaller chunks, counting backwards from 1000if I was bad. Usually just some kind of physical moving and getting outside helps me.
But when I was really in the long grass - and I was diagnosed with PTSD a couple of years post BD and tried both talking therapies and EMDR, big fan of EMDR-one of the small things that helped me most was to finish my day by writing down three things from the day for which I felt grateful. And they were tiny tiny things at first! But strangely I found that it rebalanced my eye to look for the good stuff bc the bad stuff was so noisy and overwhelming at the time.
Not at all uncommon here to find stories about a spouse going into crisis at the very time when the LBS spouse is overwhelmed by some other serious things - cancer, family challenges, struggling or sick kids. Still not your fault or indeed your son’s fault…but not uncommon to find that these kinds of folks it only don’t step up to share the load but almost resent no longer getting our full attention perhaps.
You may find, as you move forward, that the story you have told yourself for years about your h being the less FOOey one is not the whole truth of it. That there were fracture lines that you did not know, maybe that he didn’t even know, and that in reality he relied on you as a kind of scaffolding more than you realised. If only bc upending your life and binning your family is a rather big choice, isn’t it? He certainly doesn’t sound as if he is working through those big questions to the kind of contentment that it sounds you did.
Still not ypur fault though. As an adult, he could have used his words lol and he had (and still has)a whole bunch of different choices other than finding a WW and deciding to move out. Those choices - and the mostly predictable effects that come with them don’t belong to you. Still not ypur fault!
pS do let me know if you are in the market for any good reading on anxiety etc…I came across some good stuff in the midst of less helpful things!
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I am doing much of the same things as you Treasur, also I find that sports help keep my mood up. When I feel real bad I sometimes pray repeatedly even though I am not a religious person. I try to find little moments of beauty in every day. I have also done the gratefulness thing but only in my mind. Occasionally I do it wrong just for fun: i am grateful that H moved out, that my knee hurts… i think I read about that approach somewhere on this forum? No idea why that is supposed to help though.
I need mild sleeping pills to sleep atm. I think the most important things are to sleep, eat and move outside. Also getting even a small useful task accomplished helps. I guess I should try and find something else to think about than getting dumped by H and how the future will unfold, but man that is hard! I only think about those things about 98% of any given day…
H’s childhood family is really ok, his parents are closer to me than my own and they’re nice, normal people. Now H’s biological fathers’ parents were real pieces of work, can’t even write here what each of them told their adult kids on their respective death beds :o H’s biological father is an emotionally stunted and troubled Person with mental health problems. He actually did right to abort mission fatherhood when h was newborn. Things turned out better for everybody. But i think there is something biological wrong in his and his parents (H’s biological grandparents) emotional wiring, and unfortunately at the moment I believe it is hereditary and H is emotionally stunted as well. I have no idea how he can work through his feelings in this situation.
H has always been adamant that he is his stepdad’s son, not biological father’s who he calls by first name and prefers never to meet. But it seems to me now that good upbringing can’t overcome everything written in a person’s genes. Also I think he has regressed back to his early twenties when we hadn’t met, he was not popular among the girls and was really insecure about his looks. (But c’mon man get over it, your youngest son is only 9!)
But enough about H already ;D i have a surprisingly good handle on my anxiety at the moment (having some daily but coping) but if you have some good links on the topic Treasur, I could check some gems out. Always good to have something else to think about that MLC…
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I heard today through the grapewine that I am apparently divorced. H has invited some old friends over to his apartment to help assemble some new furniture. These are old friends from high school. They have met maybe once a year and H has merrily gone there (except last winter when he was too depressed) but afaik never invited them anywhere himself. They’re his good friends though. One of them contacted someone I know after the visit and was surprised to hear that we haven’t actually filed for divorce. Unless H has done that recently and in secret, he lied to his friends. And he used to hate liars. (WW btw is according to H a liar, I don’t understand how he can be madly in love with a Person who does something he used to detest. But apparently lying is okay now?). I guess he is not proud of keeping his wife as a backup, well I wouldn’t flaunt that strategy either!
For what it’s worth, H had told his friends that indeed we are divorced, that any other persons weren’t involved ::) and that he has been depressed. He had said he had a crush at work but it was not reciprocated (to me he told: I felt like i will die if I can’t be with her, she doesn’t want me but if we divorce I have the tiniest chance so I want a divorce… ::)) H had also discussed setting up a tinder profile. H’s friend had according to my informant seemed to be puzzled by the ”divorce” and even though he heard only H’s watered-down explanation he had appeared to be slightly on my side (but who knows). He had said that the apartment was a dismal bachelor box (it’s 3 rooms so kids can visit) and the mood during the visit had been bleak. The friends had promised to keep in touch with H so he doesn’t need to think through things all by himself. I hope these friends have some sense in their heads…
One thing H told me was that he wants a different life, well there it is now. His own choice.
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Hi everybody,
I am wondering about our MC session at the end of the month. What should we discuss there? Depends a lot on what H wants to say of course. But what is the wisest course for me? I probably should not let him know that pain-wise I am in hell. But is it okay to say I miss him or will that push him further away? And I know I can’t ask him about his thoughts on R or the future. Unless he volunteers some feelings on those topics it is too early and will feel pushy.
Does anybody have experience or opinion on MC session 1 month into separation when the persons are not really communicating at all?
Another thing, H spoke shortly on the phone with MIL and according to her, he sounded interested in visiting his parents. So this is not typical MLC in that he is not withdrawing from family, only me? I feel quite hopeless at the moment to be honest. He seems to feel better now that he moved out. Of course we don’t know that. But this is awfully hard.
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Hi everybody,
I am wondering about our MC session at the end of the month. What should we discuss there? Depends a lot on what H wants to say of course. But what is the wisest course for me? I probably should not let him know that pain-wise I am in hell. But is it okay to say I miss him or will that push him further away? And I know I can’t ask him about his thoughts on R or the future. Unless he volunteers some feelings on those topics it is too early and will feel pushy.
Does anybody have experience or opinion on MC session 1 month into separation when the persons are not really communicating at all?
Another thing, H spoke shortly on the phone with MIL and according to her, he sounded interested in visiting his parents. So this is not typical MLC in that he is not withdrawing from family, only me? I feel quite hopeless at the moment to be honest. He seems to feel better now that he moved out. Of course we don’t know that. But this is awfully hard.
In regards to therapy, I really think the only way for the MLCer to truly heal is to address the real root causes - their childhood trauma, insecurities, etc... But how to do that/how to get there, that's beyond my pay grade. I don't really have a good suggestion. I think the MLCer has to get there themselves. Who knows how they even do that if ever. If you push them in that direction, I think it will only push them further away from you and the relationship. In my experience, my MLCer was the one that suggested MC about 1.5 months after BD... I set it up (due to my fixer mentality and them not doing any work). When we attended, she didn't put in effort if any at all and eventually walked away from joining the MC sessions as well as her own IC. They don't want to look into the mirror. If I had to make a recommendation, I would say keep as quiet as possible, don't ask questions, validate (up to a point).
From what I read, if the MLCer tries to come back, they will start connecting with your friends, family, kids firstly... you will be last.
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Hey AF,
I'm so sorry that you had to join our ranks due to your H's MLC but you are at least in good company.
I don't have much advice on MC as my H refused to even try. But after hanging around here for many years and hearing how other's MC went, it seems I might have dodged a bullet there. MC can be hard, since MLC is not a marriage issue. Try to keep your expectations low. MLCers would maybe fair better with individual counseling, but they don't want to hear that and are generally not in a place to really dig in and do the work to get to that place.
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Hi Faithwalker!
My H is actually going to IC as well but he is not at all excited about it. He just felt so bad before telling me he wants to divorce and that he is in love with another woman that he felt like he would die. So he kind of had to start IC. But I don’t know how much he can benefit from it, he seemed to think he would get answers there, like a therapist would tell him what should he do? I don’t know what he is thinking at the moment as we don’t see or speak with each other. He did call once regarding a problem with S17, and when I said he must now concentrate on thinking about his life and healing from his depression, he said that he is not thinking at all, just watching tv.
This morning I woke up realizing that I myself should have put a little more effort in being playfully feminine. Men don’t seem to appreciate wife just taking care of the home front and cooking food for the family. I wish I had realized this sooner. On the other hand there was little kissing and hugging every day. But ultimately his depression and the urge to have experiences with other women would probably have happened anyways so I should not beat myself on the head too much about something that is too late anyways.
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On your musings about MC….every story here I recall suggests that, at best, it will be a waste of your time and energy. If you think about it, the MC process has three ‘clients’ - you, your h and the relationship. You can’t say or do anything to fix your h, the relationship is currently dead in the water bc your h has chosen to leave and your h is unlikely to be much useful help to your healing. So tbh not much point thinking in advance what you ‘should’ say or not say. The best you can do probably is be open-minded enough to see it as an opportunity to see what the situation is in reality for all three ‘clients’.
It’s normal to hold on to that bit of belief in the ‘if only I had’ or ‘if only I could’, and I can see that this is where you are. And that’s so normal at this relatively early stage. We humans tend to find it very hard to just metaphorically open our hand and let things be bc we don’t want them to be how they are. So at least for a while we engage in a bit of ‘magical thinking’. Makes sense doesn’t it when the alternative is so deeply painful and absolutely life-upending? Don’t beat yourself up about that but imho if you can try to observe it when that’s what’s rolling around in your mind. Try to focus on facts as much as you can and to keep things as simple as you can, recognising that actions matter more than words and some actions more than others.
So, for instance, spouses don’t move out bc they are committed to a marriage and family…at best they are choosing to move these things from the centre to the edge of their lives. At best this means that a whole bunch of things, big and small, will now work differently than they did. And you’re allowed to plot your own path in how you adjust to such a big change whether they like it or not, to decide what is acceptable or doable for you.
Imho the ‘playfully feminine’ thought comes from the same magical thinking stable. And obviously, as you said, a bit of your brain knows that. Be playfully feminine if that is who you are…but not in order to influence him. You are enough pretty much as who you are most probably. Other husbands including some LBS here would find you an admirable partner and count their blessings!
There are plenty of tales here of husbands leaving bc their wife is too capable or not capable enough, too career-focused or not ambitious enough, too fat or too thin, too nice or not nice enough….the list is endless. And I’m prepared to wager a great lump of cash I don’t have that your h is not perfect as a person or husband either….the difference is that he chose to leave and you did not, that he sees his current choices as a solution to whatever ails him and you did not. That ‘third client’ in the MC process can’t be worked with until or unless both of you choose to reshape it and that requires your h to reach a point where he owns his half of the street.
It is unusual here at this stage of the game to see that happen, I’m sorry to say. Much more common that MC becomes an exercise in blaming you as justifying why they did what they did or an invitation to feel sorry for them or even try to manipulate the terms of a separation or divorce in the hope that you will be trying to appease them. Sorry.
So no amount of playful or pretzelling on your part changes that - it’s an inside job not an outside job if that makes sense. In life, in all kinds of relationships, people choose to appreciate others for who they are. Or not. But that’s not a choice we make for them, only for ourselves. And you can’t perform like a performing seal or a be a multiple/topping pizza for the rest of your life, can you?
And most LBS here are so traumatised initially by what happens that it takes us a while to remember who we really are and appreciate ourselves! If I were you, I’d start there…remind yourself of all the things that are rather lovely about you, and spend time with people who remind you of that bc they appreciate you. I cannot emphasise enough - although I know there are lots of LBS here nodding along - how big a number this life experience can do on your own sense of self worth and and stability in who you are.
A friend said to me yesterday, out of the blue, that she thinks I am so talented, that I have so many gifts that she feels very lucky to know me….wasn’t that nice? But, for a moment - and I am years past the big devaluation of BD - I was a bit speechless. I remember feeling years ago that I had lots of talents but those so called talents were pretty useless and inaccessible to me when my life got blown up! So it changed how I saw myself and changed how I lived and felt about how my world worked….i could only see failure and doubt and mistakes and wasted things, so it was hard to see much good in me at all. Still is some days tbh…so imho that’s the fight worth fighting against…that insidious inner voice that blames you for someone else’s choices or opinion of you.
Again jmo, but when someone leaves and particularly if they have betrayed and deceived us, their opinion of me becomes much less important! My xh may indeed believe that I was a terrible wife and horrible human…I have no idea…but I know that I’m a pretty decent human and that I would have thought myself very lucky indeed if I’d had the kind of spouse that I was, particularly when life was difficult! I did my best, I acted honestly and with good intent for years and years…my xh could not honestly say the same about his half of our marriage and that’s about who he was not who I was. I wasn’t very different years on from the person he married for whatever reason he chose to propose…but these folks tend not to see it that way. They believe, I think, that replacing your spouse will be some magic fix to their internal discomfort….an outside fix for an inside problem…which is why, over time, that rarely turns out to be so. But they break things on the way and life changes bc of that, often in ways that seem to surprise them. Bc of course they take whatever the inside problem is with them into their new lives…new relationships or jobs or places might be a distraction for a while but that tends not to last forever in normal life, does it?
It takes a while for most LBS to really understand in their bones that, whatever imperfections you have as a normal human, YOU were not the problem. The problem - such as it is, and put more simply - is that your spouse was unhappy with their own life and chose to blow up their old life with you as a solution. I guess that might work out for some, who knows, but it’s not so likely it seems to me. But YOU are not the problem. Which also means YOU are not the solution either. Whether you are winsomely feminine or not!
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Thank you Treasur! Everything that you wrote makes a lot of sense. I can’t be anyone else but myself. And frankly in this situation I doubt that anyone would feel playful. Same with the previous 4 years with my own & son’s health problems. A spouse could have chosen to be supportive. But he has his own crisis. And indeed it is odd to go to MC as he has declared that he is now single. What is a single Person doing in MC? I struggle so much with this situation that it is unreal. Thing is, his hug used to make everything ok for me. Time to stand on my own two feet now I guess.
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You’re doing pretty well imho, all things considered, even though you probably don’t feel like you are. Your job is to just keep going and learn good ways to pick yourself up when you fall over - and we all fall over sometimes 😝
And of course you haven’t felt playful if you and your child have had some serious health challenges. Duh. Can’t tell you how many LBS stories here (including my own) have a BD coming after a difficult patch of serious health issues that have required an LBS to focus their time and energy elsewhere…..these MLC folks seem to hit the buffers for some reason when the LBS is less available for some reason and they need to step up and do some serious adulting. 🙄
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In regard to being "playfully feminine", I had a similar "shoulda coulda woulda". The marriage counselor I found for me and my ex-wife scheduled individual appointments for us. In one of mine, he told me that he had met with my (now ex-)wife. He told me that she thought I was incredibly funny. He then asked me, "where is that man now?" For context, I was sleeping maybe 30 minutes a night, and every time I woke up I would be covered in sweat. I was unable to focus on anything aside from the feeling that the weight of the world was dangling from my intestines. I was scared of losing my job, of devising a new budget, of, honestly, staying alive. I had lost probably 20 pounds and had multiple people tell me I didn't look well. All that is to say, I was definitely NOT very charming, or charismatic, let alone FUNNY!
I imagine the counselor's intent was for me to attract my ex-wife, but the thing is my ex-wife was already gone. I believe at that point she was doing everything she could to justify to the world that she had done everything, tried everything, but the marriage was unsalvageable. She performed these rituals not because they might DO anything, but as certificates she could present to people asking her questions about what she had already done. I imagine she can still comfort herself as she instigated marriage counseling, she attended 5 sessions (or 6, or whatever the advice says about minimal attendance), but even after all of that it just didn't work! I remember telling her after probably one of the last session we had together that I felt she wasn't trying. She was furious with me. I asked her if she believed she was trying and she said "of course". I don't doubt her, honestly. She likely WAS doing everything that she could. But that's the thing, what she could genuinely do was essentially nothing. Her heart wasn't in it. She didn't want it, even if she likely wanted to want it.
Oh! That also reminds me of another story. This time I WAS being funny. One thing my ex-wife said was that she wants to "date". I took this to mean she wants me to take her on more dates, so I started planning more dates. I remember opening the door to her office (as she started keeping it closed and staying in it during the weekends) to invite her to play pinball and listen to live music nearby. She said nothing to me. She simply stared. I felt absolutely worthless. As I am closing the door, I say to her "I love you". She, of course, doesn't respond. I then continue "even though it is hard some times" but said light-heartedly and with a smile. I noted her smile and felt the tension evaporate (well, as much as it could). Later she used that line against me, saying I was intentionally trying to hurt her. I don't quite remember how she was able to spin not responding to "I love you" as me being the one with a dagger out but I do remember being blown away with the maneuver.
This is all a long winded way of saying that I believe Treasur is right on target. At this point in time, I feel that caring for YOU is the only thing that matters. Trust that everything will come with time, but it starts with self-love. Here is a little poem I wrote when I was too scared to leave the house and feeling ashamed at that. It came out spontaneously after I simply took care of myself. Hopefully it might mean something to you too.
Today is one of those days.
Where the volcano erupts. Where the ash chokes and melts and stains everything. The darkness steals all vision and you grope for familiarity. The trauma clouds your memory and you exist alone as the sky pours its hatred onto you.
Today is one of those days.
Where the boat glides across the horizon and you can't tell where the sea meets the sky. Alienated, isolated, damp and cold, just staring at your inventory knowing it'll run out sometime soon. You fearfully take a bite.
Yes, today is one of those days.
Those days that make you proud of yourself. Those days where you can clothe and wash and care for someone as worthy as yourself. Those days where you are given the gift of protecting and comforting such a beautiful and delicate soul. Those days where you get to cradle and soothe a champion.
It's not every day you get to be the hero's hero.
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Hi Treasur and zartheit!
I am having a little better day today. Meaning that I didn’t wake up at 5am wanting to die asap,but at 3:55 just feeling I won’t survive. I can relate to everything you wrote about your feelings zartheit. I can sleep 4-5 hours per night and that is with medicine. I also fear that I will bee unable to work because I can’t sleep and total ruin is in the cards for me. Mornings seem to be the hardest for me and evenings somewhat better but it varies.
I feel so alone with the kids here, can’t really discuss these kinds of feelings with your kids. And next week will be worse as S9 and S17 will be at H’s place and S14 is in his own room all the time anyways and he is the quiet one. I don’t know how many texts and calls my friends can take as this thing/my pain will go on for a while.
I think that H’s depression could well have started from feeling he has fallen out of love with me. In that case the prognosis for our marriage looks very bad. Likely he would also want to want to save the M, but does not actually WANT it. This thing has been going on for too many years with him holding it all inside hoping it will just go away. Well who the hell knows what he is thinking? But I feel like divorce is likely and almost want to rip off the band-aid already to have it over with. I don’t know what will be left of me after this purgatory.
Loved the poem, especially the ending!
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I like to think that what will be left of you when the purgatory ends is the core you, vulnerable yet with a spine of steel. Empathetic but not taking any BS.
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I don’t know what will be left of me after this purgatory.
This reminded me of a quote from Lysa TerKeurst I had read a few years into my own journey.
"Broken people have seen some really crappy days so they keep things in perspective just a little more often. After all, when you've licked the floor of hell and lived to tell about it, you tend to be a little less judgmental and a whole lot more patient and kind."
You are here! In this safe space, where healing can happen. There's going to be lots of refining moments, but you've got the LBS fiber running through you. I agree with forthetrees too. Spines of steel. You're in good company here.
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Thank you both! I hope I will come through a little better person. S9 goes to H’s place for his first dad week today. I am in pain. H called about S17 health problem, I asked how H is doing. He told me he was in a bar recently with a friend (single man, that friend). I should not be shocked but I am. I know why the married friends weren’t invited, only the one who is free, and has lots of experience hitting on women as he usually has only short relationships.
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AF, I hope you can find something to do for you while your S9 is gone this week. I remember the FOMO well. And also MLCer hanging out with other "single" people as if he was already single. It hurts, I know it does.
When I found out my MLCer was on Plenty of Fish it killed me. But then my friend sent me this:
https://ifunny.co/video/theywaytheyalltookoffrunning-there-s-plenty-of-fish-in-the-sea-the-4zd7BKBm6?s=cl (https://ifunny.co/video/theywaytheyalltookoffrunning-there-s-plenty-of-fish-in-the-sea-the-4zd7BKBm6?s=cl)
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I remember the pain of everyone is just fine with all this except me. Like I am somehow supposed to just jump up as say "OK, I've been lied to, lied about, cheated on, stolen from, verbally abused, gaslighted and abandoned, but hey I should be bringing my A game!" I was so tired of no one understanding how hard it is to have your kids go off with the "I'm so HAPPY now that I'm not with YOU" parent and you now lose part of your time with them.
I am here to tell you it gets better. You have to contribute to it getting better, but it does get better. I think a lot of us found that we had invested more into our spouses and/or family than we did in ourselves and now that needed to change. Anything your MLCer says or does really has zero to do with you in my experience. You could jump through every hoop in the book and it still would not be enough because three days later, there are some new hoops. Forget that. Find yourself. What does Arctic Fox need? Not based on someone else fulfilling that need, but Arctic Fox fulfilling that need. It starts slow, maybe you take yourself to a movie, or out to dinner, or go somewhere with friends, or read a book. Something that nurtures you. Do you have anything like that you like to do for yourself? I drove off road, but I grant I'm an anomaly. ;D I also crafted, colored, ghost hunted. I was unable to read though and to this day I still cannot manage a book. What would you like to do? Does anything speak to you?
And I might suggest you don't ask how your H is doing. Some things you might not want to know. Best if you leave your H to whatever he is doing and help yourself and your kids move forward on your own paths. If your H's path converges with yours somewhere down the line, you want to be in a good independent space so you can make good choices. And if his path does not converge with yours, you will still be in a good place.
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Great advice.
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Hi Faithwalker, Offroad and everybody else!
Sorry that I didn’t write for such a long time. I have been feeling alternately quite empowered or real bad and in either case writing here felt overwhelming. But I read the advice weeks ago and it is indeed great.
We went to MT with H, and it was weird. In all 3 sessions (two before he moved out and the latest a month after) he has spoken about WW. I dont like that as it is supposed to be OUR therapy but otoh he pays for it and I want to know What is going on… Well she has rejected a relationship with H multiple times now, but H has gotten her to agree that they can still be friends, and taken her out acouple of times. According to H the last time was ”stressful as she didnt speak at all”. So i said she wasnt your new true love after all and he said guess not…
I asked H if he thinks we have a marital crisis or he has a personal crisis. He said he doesnt know?! A male friend of mine said probably both then (in H’s mind) or he should be able to say which one. I can kind of see that but why the hell the first time H opens his mouth he says he wants a divorce? Maybe there was something that he could have said before that point if he felt there is a problem? I heard there is a thread for the stupid reasons MLC’ers dump their spouses, well my H says i didn’t go dancing with him (years ago) and sometimes i have farted when sitting next to him on the couch. Okay then? Maybe he could have let me know back then when these things happened that they are a deal breaker for him!
He has not actually initiated a divorce or stated that he wants it any more, but wants to live separately ATM. He says he is mentally growing living without me. I feel his personal growth comes with too high a price tag - for other people! He still keep paying the mortgage (kinda good kinda bad as that is holding me trapped in place). He wants to continue MT. I had a week of doubt why are we doing it if he hasn’t loved me for years and he already practically put our kids through a divorce, as he moved out, so What is there to salvage? But i don’t want to give up yet, i guess it is love? Because there is no sensible reason why I keep putting myself through this.
P.S. He did come by one night before the latest MC session. Told me he misses me sometimes, then suggested having sex :o i said we can’t or we will both be even more messed up in the head. Too bad he hasn’t tried it again, i wouldn’t want to, i think it would break my heart to have meaningless sex with him, but i sort of wish he would keep trying… ::)
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I heard there is a thread for the stupid reasons MLC’ers dump their spouses, well my H says i didn’t go dancing with him (years ago) and sometimes i have farted when sitting next to him on the couch. Okay then? Maybe he could have let me know back then when these things happened that they are a deal breaker for him!
Here is the last version. In the first post, there is a link to the earlier thread as well... .
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11601.msg804421#new (https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11601.msg804421#new)
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You are so honest, authentic, raw and vulnerable. While that invites being hurt more and deeper, in the end I think it allows you to heal on your journey whereas the MLCer puts their pain in a bubble/cyst and just allows it to fester or grow. I guess you could say it´s an emotional abscess. You either lance it or get sepsis. Maybe the best outcome of continued MC is that he starts individual sessions.