Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: LisaLives on June 04, 2011, 10:31:59 AM
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I had not heard of Schmuley Boteach before, but I love Huffington Post Divorce. This is a great little blog about healing the American male. Worth a read, and if it saves even one man from an MLC, it was worth a million bucks!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/healing-the-broken-americ_b_871323.html
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Do you think it might help the Brits as well? lol :-\
xx
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I didn't want to stand in judgment of the Brits--are your men as screwed up as ours? And again, it wasn't my judgment, but the Rabbi's... Just sayin...
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I love Rabbi Schmuley. He used to have a tv show on where he would help families in trouble. He is very good at what he does. I loved the post. Thanks
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yep our guys are as screwed up as yours lol :-\ :-\
xx
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That is a good article. In my opinion, though, I believe making foolish decisions based on power is different than MLC behavior. Certainly men such as Tiger and Arnold made bad decisions....but I don't really believe either one of them were because of MLC.....I believe their decisions were simply based on power.
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http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm
I thought this was a really good article on passive aggressive behavior in relationships and the whole dynamic... This really explains a lot of my relationship.
OMR
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I read that article shortly after bomb drop. It really helped me realize that, yeah, he was always nice ( most of the time ) and took care of me in many ways, including financially, but there was definitely another side to the facade. This article helped me detach.
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Off,
This article sounds like someone was watching life in my house. H always seems so quiet and giving. Yet when asked a question it was always "we'll see" but that always turned out to be a "no" Why not just say no ? Because it was easier to avoid the confrontation with me. He always liked to do whatever he wanted and I wasn't to question any of this.
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This article was SPOT ON for me and H. Although I do find it a bit depressing for the long term. Question: Are extreme distancers naturally passive aggressive? Are distancers by definition passive aggressive due to their lack of engagement with the pursuer? I've been doing some studying on these dynamics and wondering if they are workable in the long run or if I am just beating my head against a brick wall trying. It's also hard to tell how much of this behavior is caused by MLC and how much is caused by actual personality.
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I guess my thought on it would be that my h had issues from his childhood. A part of him never learned how to communicate properly. I feel that when he started the MLC, these were the only tools that he knew. And MLC exasterbated them for a few years before BD. Has he always been passive aggressive? Yes. I married him with this personality. I think when they start to come out of the fog some and start to realize that there is a problem with themselves... There is a desire to fix the problem within themselves... This is where my h is. He is now going to therapy on his own and is learning that this is one of his issues. Will he ever be an open book and communicate the way that i would like him to? Probably not. But i do think it can be much better. And with the knowledge that i have learned about passive aggressiveness... I can now figure out when this might be occurring... This article opened my eyes to issues that were already part of our marriage. I think the article could have talked about the extreme case... And that would very much feel like the extreme that our spouses are are at this moment... But they are still in a crisis. So i don't think it should apply. The article isn't about MLC or someone who is passive aggressive while in MLC. Its about the coping skills that they have used all their lives. But im willing to guess that most of our MLCers didn't display the extreme in most of our marriages... Which leads me to believe that when they finally exit MLC... They won't be in the extreme camp either.
OMR
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My H was PA, I know this, was dealing with this before BD. Hope one day that he will receive the help he needs to overcome and understand his behavior. Lots of hopes here!
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Great article. Explains quite a bit about my relationship too.
Very similar script again.
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Wondering what to make of this ......
http://www.andrewgmarshall.com/2012/04/14/ask-andrew-what-can-be-bring-a-man-out-of-a-mid-life-crisis/ (http://www.andrewgmarshall.com/2012/04/14/ask-andrew-what-can-be-bring-a-man-out-of-a-mid-life-crisis/)
He seems to put a lot of emphasis on the LBS's anger and behaviour and suggests that she can change his behaviour by changing hers. Personally I think this is an over-simplified view and although he maybe does make some valid points about seeing things from each other's perspectives, this cannot be achieved if the MLC'r is unable to deal with or face up to his own issues.
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There is some valid points here. I am also like that wife who wrote in. I've also read many MLCers are ones who are not as 'strong' as the LBSer. I am typically 'principled' and I am one who takes control. If my ex was more assertive, I dont believe we would have the problems. Not sure if anything that could have been done about MLC, but her resentment for me is related to my being too in control.
Perhaps now is where she is finally in control.
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There probably are some valid points that can be taken from this....but.....my input would be to keep in mind that it looks like this may be from a marriage counselor. I will list several bits of information below that may be helpful to consider.
Do we have influence on our MLCer? I have linked RCR's blog called "Influence: Making A Difference" below. One of my takeaways from this blog has been that one of our biggest influences, which also helps us work on our Self, is reacting vs. responding.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=360
Like many LBS, I also read a few marriage help books. During our very brief time in counseling, our counselor used Gottman's materials. Soon thereafter, I stopped reading them because I began to realize my MLCer had no willingness to work on the marriage. Here's part of RCR's blog called "MLCers Meet Marital Warning Signs" that I found to be very accurate.
Those books are about how to do something before the situation reaches where you are now—prevention and damage control, but those books are directed toward marital problems, not the problems of a midlife crisis. Reading them can be a waste of time for many in the midst of MLC because since your MLCer will not respond to many of the techniques and efforts, you run the risk of using what you read to interpret that your situation is hopeless.
Here's a piece from Conway's site that I think is helpful to keep in mind
A single event is not usually going to "change" their heart. It takes a lot of large and small things at the right times when God knows their hearts are at the point where they are READY to move forward. Until then they will remain in that place of indecision, selfishness and confusion.
And here are some pieces from RCR. I think she does a great job in these pieces of touching on the regression to an earlier age, the experimentation of identity, and Liminality.......all of which can help us understand that MLC Takes Time and is a process.
This is how MLCers are. They are experimenting with a new identity. They want to be that person they used to dream about; the fun guy, Peter Pan who doesn’t age is successful with women, successful socially and successful professionally. He wants to be that guy. And that guy is either who he used to be when he was young—the popular jock or the one he admired and wanted to be.
MLCers are tired of accommodating their Self and their public personae to what other people want. But when you experiment with something, you tend to go beyond and take it to obsessive levels.
He’s regressed to adolescence when he experimented with various identities. But remember none are real yet, though all contain bits of validity because they are pieces of him. Those pieces are often the bits and pieces he is rediscovering from his Shadow. When he gets to Liminality he will sort through them and decide which ones to keep.
And what you see of those pieces may be negative, but that doesn’t mean pieces of the pieces are worthy of keeping. Monster was awful, but Monster was confident and knew what it wanted and was not afraid to speak its mind. Those are positive attributes when channeled appropriately.
You husband is in there and he’s intact, but he needs to go through this to discover those other bits of his Self and then he needs to go through Liminality to integrate the pieces he wants to keep.
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Yes, I am hesitant about this as well. The largest part of the answer to the woman was about having sex more often with her H when he's not even available. I agree that it looks more like marriage counseling, although with the knowledge that we have, the part of trying to envision what it's like to be in the MLCer's shoes is helpful. When we realize they are seriously depressed, running from their depression and have to go through this themselves, it can help us realize what is going on and drive our actions. That kernel of being in the others' shoes is helpful, but only in the context of understanding what MLC is, which the article doesn't appear to.
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Well, it was marriage counselinog in a way...Andrew Marshall is a marriage counselor.
Reading your initiall posts, I thought I might agree with you guys.
But no, not in this particular situation.
The truth is, as far as I can see, he wanted yet again to take the easy road, but unfortunately I was tied into that particular situation and I don’t take the easy road, I take the “right” road.
I’m picturing you delivering this letter with your hands on your hips, your voice is really angry and from time to time, you’re shouting and you’re wagging your finger.
We only have the wife's words and she gives very little in the way of MLC behaviors in her husband. He may or may not be MLC, but I don't see it in what she has shown in her letter.
She is bossy and demanding and her way is right, other ways are wrong. That is a serious flaw on her part--a marriage destroying flaw because it has a lot of actions and consequences that go with it.
She makes excuses. Her explanation for why their sex life was diminished was valid, but it was pure excuse rather than a validation that it was something they needed to resolve--basically that's the way it was going to be while the situation at home was like that--kids at home. She did not say that, but that by only explaining without acknowledging it needed to change and validating his feelings, that was the implication.
Whether he is an MLCer or not, I see the problems as deeper--at least regarding her part.
I completely agree with Andrew's finger wagging vision. She is a pursuing S-Mother and as Dr. Phil might say, she couldn't be driving him away better if she were chasing him with a stick.
and instead of trying to push down or dismiss his unhappiness as a mid-life crisis (and belittling it further as a cliché one)
Another good point. I think that for this wife, MLC is a convenient excuse that is allowing her to avoid her own mirror-work.
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Ooops.....I should probably clarify.....my post wasn't about the situation in the article. My post was about looking at whether the LBS can change the behavior of an MLCer in a true MLC situation.
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For my part, I think this guy is spot on about what he writes and I think MWD would agree. I can relate to the woman as my W has mentioned me being self-righteous and angry (as have many here). Perhaps we do have to own our part in causing this. My W is now surrounding herself with people who see her as an intellectual and is pushing herself to complete her degree. Perhaps this really is a reaction to me. What if deep down she DOES want us to work out and I unknowingly prevent it?
Lots of thinking to do......
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Perhaps we do have to own our part in causing this.
Depends on what you are referring to by causing "this". Marriage "this"....sure. MLC "this"....no. You are not the cause of someone else's midlife crisis.
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Speaking for myself only, I certainly didn't help things in many ways. There is a fine line between being righteous and being self-righteous, and perhaps I was at the least a contributing factor.
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Thundarr
I usually include an article reference to what I am referring to.....and I should have done that in my last post.
From Midlife Crisis Takes Time.
Maybe you were too controlling, complained all the time, addicted to sex, porn, alcohol etc. Look within yourself and change for yourself. But please understand that no matter how great or small your flaws and transgressions, they are not the cause of someone else's Midlife Crisis.
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But DGU, you are missing the point. We all know that we did not cause the crisis. However, the crisis is thrust upon us and our MLCer is no longer the person that we know.
Thundarr, you keep self-reflecting and looking at YOURSELF! You made an amazing assessment of yourself. When you accept your own flaws and issues, then you can start to pave the way for both you and your wife.
Release the anger in your heart and the pain that you are suffering.
Look back at your posts- one year ago, you thought you had just finished climbing Mt. Everest. You finished school, planted you flag on the summit and felt that life was going to be great. Then bam! you realized that you had not finished climbing and the peak was even higher than you ever imagined.
You have felt robbed and that the culprit is your wife. Of course you are angry. I am angry. But as I have stated before, accept your anger and then you can release it.
This has nothing to do with MLC, but everything to do with you as a man and as a person. Now, use this KNOWLEDGE that you possess and use it when you post.
I really think you come so far.....keep going, I know you can do it.
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Ready
Not all LBS are certain they are not the cause of their spouse's crisis.
In his post, Thundarr used the word "cause", which is what my initial response was for. I know more than one LBS who has said this or something similar....."what was so horrible about me that he left?" That is what I am addressing in regard to MLC.
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DGU and Ready,
You are both correct. I should have not used the word "causing" as I did and it was in reference to the article. I still own my own flaws and plan on researching how to overcome them. That is something we all likely need to do if we wish for an R.
One point we should consider, and DGU might disagree, is that while all of us on here are LBSers all of our spouses aren't necessarily in MLC. The advice in the article should be followed either way even though the odds of an R would be different based on the circumstances. I don't mean to speak in absolutes but rather general observations.
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One point we should consider, and DGU might disagree, is that while all of us on here are LBSers all of our spouses aren't necessarily in MLC. The advice in the article should be followed either way even though the odds of an R would be different based on the circumstances. I don't mean to speak in absolutes but rather general observations.
Thundarr
I agree with you on both those things.
I am a believer in working on the Self. It's part of the growth and maturation process of the LBS. However, I am not one who asks my MLCer is she has noticed any changes in me. That may fall under the categories of pursuit and/or manipulation.
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I think that it is really important to self-reflect no matter where we are on this journey. Did I cause my ex's MLC? No. Did some of my behaviours and reactions exacerbate it? Yes, I think so. But it is a little bit "which came first the chicken or the egg" with this one. Was I always controlling? Not generally, but when I feel backed into a corner, or when I feel fear or when I am feeling insecure, yes. And that is something I need to be aware of for my own future relationships. I actually think this relationship counsellor is surprisingly good and insightful. If you look at his website he has some very interesting videos on infidelity, saving marriages, and even on how to start dating again after being in a long term relationship or being single for a long time. One of his points is that like attracts like. So if we are desperate and needy we attract someone desperate and needy. Which increases the chances of a failed relationship. If we are strong and secure and have worked through our FOO issues and previous relationship issues, then we are more likely to attract the right sort of person to provide a stable and equal relationship.
He also is very against game playing and other "methods" of dating. I think he makes some valid points because I can relate to the woman's self-righteous anger. I have felt it. But it is not helpful for anyone and will not make her ex come home. It will also not make her happy. When I feel most angry (and self-righteous) I also feel most out of control. And that is when I am at my most controlling.
What the unfaithful person did was wrong and cruel, but infidelity does not totally invalidate their own perspectives about the marriages and about our faults as LBS's. I wish that my ex had been less cowardly, but I also wish I could have been more open to his dissatisfaction and unhappiness, EVEN if it did not make sense to me. My marriage is over and so is my stand, but I am taking some valuable lessons and insights forward into my next chapter with me.
Sometimes being right is overrated. Being compassionate and kind serve us much better.
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I agree with RCR on this one. The wife is angry, blaming, and placing the responsibility for her own happiness on her husband. Who the heck wants to be around a person like that?! Yuck! >:(
Whether his behavior is right or wrong (and I certainly do not agree with the fact that he had an affair), she can't "make" him feel or act a certain way. But she keeps trying to do so. She is defensive and making excuses about her own issues, yet making no allowances for her husband. Her letter comes across more as a need to justify her own point of view than a sincere request for advice. I agree with Ask Andrew's analysis. She has plenty of work she can do on herself, and her energy will be much better expended there as well.
I've been there, I get it. Being SOOOO angry and frustrated that "he just won't do what I want." That attitude is a dead end, in relationships and in life in general. Once I was able to finally let go of the fact that I have no control over anyone but myself, life became so much better. WE CAN'T CONTROL OUR SPOUSES. And we should stop trying to do so. The wife can choose to remain angry and bitter about her husband's actions, or she can choose to take this as an opportunity to really look at herself, her own attitudes and beliefs, and her own actions in life. Her happiness and state of mind is entirely up to her. It really is.
Great article! Thanks for sharing Magpie. It really reinforces the lessons I have been learning on my own throughout this process.
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I'm going to disagree here; that letter from that wife looked to me like something someone might post here as a first post -- before they knew much. I DO see MLC in what she says about her H, yes of course I see the controlling, fingerwagging behaviours, but so many of us do that at the beginning -- I, too, remember thinking that I just didn't have a choice with the amount of time the children took in my sitch, and yes, I, too, understood that it was temporary, even if temporary was a long time. And I, too, thought that so much was "just the way it had to be" while the children were at the stage they were, etc. Now I did certainly take the "what do we need to do to fix it" attitude, but I don't see that she isn't doing that, I see that she is floundering, not understanding what is going on at all.
And truthfully, there is so little information here that it's hard to argue.
The other thing that I don't see is any indication from Andrew that he at all gets MLC; in fact it seems the opposite -- and he quite glibly to my mind says that she can "turn it around". (S&D, I haven't looked at that site, so maybe am not so well informed...)
I'm not at all saying that she doesn't need to do mirror work, quite the opposite, but I wouldln't be so quick to condemn her.
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Thundarr,
BINGO! (To quote OP)
For my part, I think this guy is spot on about what he writes and I think MWD would agree. I can relate to the woman as my W has mentioned me being self-righteous and angry (as have many here). Perhaps we do have to own our part in causing this. My W is now surrounding herself with people who see her as an intellectual and is pushing herself to complete her degree. Perhaps this really is a reaction to me. What if deep down she DOES want us to work out and I unknowingly prevent it?
Lots of thinking to do......
And when I say Bingo - what I mean to say is that I think, should you continue on this path, have hit the nail on the head. My comment is not related to the "flaws" that you state in your paragraph that you may or may not have - it relates to what Ready stated in his earlier post. What you are commenting on in your post is Mirror work - something EVERYONE needs to do in order to improve him or herself. (Not for your spouse, not for anyone else - but YOU).
At Bomb Drop my H "kindly" pointed out all my flaws - and, as with anyone, there were some truths intermingled with the re-written history. When I read back into my threads - there was a stage that I went through where I felt tremendous guilt and anger at myself for "causing" this. And, as DGU so aptly reminded us - we did NOT cause this. This would have happened - regardless. Did we contribute? Maybe.....maybe not. But, when I look at my H - the issues he is avoiding are issues he had WAY before he met me.
I guess one of the things that I've learned "thanks" to my H's MLC - is that I had/have some flaws....some that I really didn't like about myself. And, I learned that I could do something about these. For a while - I beat myself up about them. Now, I see them for what they were.....some bad traits that I choose not to have any more....and I am able to catch myself when I find myself falling into old bad habits. My relationships with my friends, family, kids and myself have all improved. I am actually learning to like myself and no longer feel that, should someone else not like me, that there is something wrong with me.
You know what? Everyone doesn't have to like me....and that is completely okay. It no longer damages my self worth......that is HUGE for me.
Did I make all the "mistakes"? Sure. Just like everyone. Did I do some mirror work on those things? Absolutely! Do I blame my husband for my lot in life? No. Not anymore. Except for those rare occassions when I have my pity party (they are shorter, now ;)) - I realize that the things he does are to HIMSELF. It's a shame that he has separated himself from his own kids...I know that it is part of the script....but it still is very unfortunate. But, there is NOTHING that I can do - except be there for the kids as the best MOM that I can be.
Thundarr - spend the time in your own liminality - thinking. It is SO worth the time. And, some time later, you will find that being happy and finding joy is a choice.....that you can make - regardless of your W's situation. Continue to work on yourself. We are in control of our own situations.......that can be overwhelming or freeing....it's just in the way that you look at it.
limitless
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S&D
I know exactly how you feel. By the time of BD anything I said or did was too late.
It would have been nice and rational if they told us what they felt.
We are not mind readers. We didn't cause the MLC but some of their spew is accurate, but a normal marriage would not end like this.
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yes of course I see the controlling, fingerwagging behaviours, but so many of us do that at the beginning
I agree with this statement as well. Just as there seem to be similar characteristics in many MLCers, there are certain personality traits that seem to be common among many LBS posters. It's been a topic of discussion recently on several threads.
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T&L - I agree that condemning the wife is not the answer either, I remember feeling exactly the way she does and I still have my moments. I just agree with the overall advice from Andrew, which seems to be that the wife is so focused on how she was wronged that she does not understand that her own behaviour will only exacerbate the running behaviour. I think the response by Andrew does not seem to fully understand the sheer depth of confusion and bizarre behaviour that we are often confronted with at BD by our MLCers. Nonetheless, having read a bit of the other content on the site, I do think much of what he is writing is generally in line with the beliefs on the forum. He seems to be generally more in favour of saving relationships if possible. I do not know if he is a MLC expert like RCR, but I do think he understands infidelity and relationship break downs quite well. Also, I think sometimes those of us on this site become so ensconsed in thinking about MLC that we actually forget that it is a real person we are discussing - our MLCers become almost stereotypes of themselves. I don't think it hurts to remind ourselves that whatever the cause, our MLCers REALLY do believe that they NEED to get out of the relationship, that we are at fault and that we do not understand them (ok they are often right about the final bit!). His point that we need to accept that 2 people are departing a marriage with different, but equally valid points of view, is hard to hear when we are screaming but it is MLC, if you know what I mean. Still, the advice on here is that while we have been wronged, there is a requirement to work on ourselves and to consider where there might be some credence to our ex's perceptions of us, so it is not so different after all.
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When you've been together for a quarter of a century, and maybe have children together, house, business and any number of other things and combined hopes and dreams. And when the person who has been so close to you throughout all of this starts to withdraw, you feel it.
You ask what's going on for them - and they fob you off. You are confused.
They detach some more - you ask again, and you get the same fobbing off.
They get angrier and angrier, and spend less and less time with you and your kids (if you have them), and doing all of the things that they used to do - and then, the piece de resistance - they announce that they are leaving!!! Just like that. And they go.
Of course they are going to think we are controlling when they want to escape and deny responsibility for the life that we had together. It's their perception of our survival response.
Who in their right mind wouldn't be asking 'controlling' questions? Who wouldn't be trying to make sense of the situation and ask them to explain themselves. Who would just say 'that's nice honey - off you go. Have fun'.
I believe this is often a chicken and egg thing. Which came first? Their MLC behaviours and detachment, or our 'control'?
I know for sure if the boot was on the other foot, my H definitely would have been exhibiting the same LBS behaviours that we all did.
About the only complaint that my H gave was that we had a bad marriage, and that I was controlling.
I heard this for a very long time.
Recently - he said he knows that is not true. He knows I wasn't controlling throughout our marriage. He knows that he gave me a lot of reasons to become 'controlling'. I was trying to hold my family together. It is a natural human response when your previously sane spouse threatens the family structure that they used to hold very dear to them.
Having said that - there have been plenty of areas that I have worked on for myself.
And - if I ever come across MLC behaviours again - I'll know what is happening, and I'll be able to say 'that's nice honey - off you go, have fun', and leave him to it, as we have learnt to do. He'd then have to come up with a better excuse for leaving me. Too happy perhaps?
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Well said Kikki.
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True story: Shortly after BD, I gave my H a copy of Marshall's excellent book, "I Love You, But I Am Not In Love With You." (This, by the way, was one of the more rational things I did.) Months later, after H had vanished, he sent me a letter saying that he read the the book and it had "really resonated with him." I thought this was hysterical, because Marshall is pro-marriage and his book is aimed at SAVING marriages that have evolved into the ILUB stage. Marshall even says that "if worse comes to worse" and you feel you must divorce, there is a "right" way to do it, which involves having compassionate interactions with your spouse. My H refused to work on or discuss our marriage at all and divorced my from afar with zero interactions. We went through the entire divorce process remotely through lawyers! Zilch compassion. So either H never really read the book or only read the parts that "validated" his breakdown! I guess that was a big backfire! But the book is still good and I recommend it for LBS. Although I do think Marshall doesn't "get" MLC the way RCR does.
BirdSoul
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Kikki, well said.
I was also called controlling. And then I was told, no, you aren't controlling at all. So which is it?
Surely I tried to control the situation when my H suddenly decided he wasn't happy and wasn't into our marriage. If I were on a sinking boat, I would also try to stop the water from rushing in. What, you're supposed to just sit around and let your whole life fall apart?
Controlling is the tried and true mantra of the MLCer. No different from a teenager.
"Controlling" is code when an MLCer is ticked off because they want to do something they know they should not do, and the grown up (LBS) steps in and tries to prevent them from causing harm.
Just like a teenager.
Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I did something stupid...I didn't read the post from the beginning so I don't know what this expert said...all I know is that when I hear "controlling", my hackles get raised. If I had a nickle for every MLCer who called an LBS controlling, I'd be at home with someone cleaning my house and doing my nails and bringing me champagne... ;)
Bon
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Controlling is the tried and true mantra of the MLCer. No different from a teenager.
I wasn't called controlling. I wasn't called anything. When she returned to the country after BD and I asked "why?" she developed a soar throat and was unable to speak. Seriously. I received no explanation other than these "things happen" and "I need my own space."
The MLCer is capable of doing their own fair share of control.
The more a read of MLC and relationships and of this notion of control I wonder now if it was not me that was being controlled. I have been living a single life since 4th Dec 2010. At the beginning the heartbreak was so immense, so crushing and so mind numbingly bad it was a challenge to put one foot in front of the other. Eighteen months on and...I say this rather tentatively, I think I may be finding my own thoughts. All the things I would accept and compromise on because...well, that's what love does, right? Love puts others before self...doesn't it? I now wonder if they were aspects of her control.
I've said before how she had a mischievous sense of humour. Now I wonder if that really was what it was? What I perceived as humour others might have perceived as put downs. Was I being kept in my place?
Eighteen months of detachment and zero contact gives one time to think. I'm not sure if I'm rewriting history or I am seeing history with greater clarity. With more time I will work it out.
I'd be at home with someone cleaning my house and doing my nails and bringing me champagne...
You mean your H doesn't do this for you? My W told me it was normal in every marriage for the H to do this. DOH! :(
honour
ok, the first part of this post was a serious point but I just couldn't resist the obvious gag. Hey! I must be in recovery, I can joke about this madness now :) 8)
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Honour, my BD was also Dec of 2010, and I too believe that I was the one who was being controlled. My ex was never verbal, she was passive aggressive. When she didn't like things, she would withdraw and ignore people, and make them feel uncomfortable.
She, in retrospect, made me 'abandon' my family. My sister, whom I was closest to, rarely visit with us, same goes with my uncle and my aunt, who were like my parents... She would attend functions, but withdraw. Over time, sensing the discomfort, I avoid going to places where she would withdraw.
I would stop going out with friends over the years because when I came home, there was this withdrawal... I don't want to say there will be hell to pay, because there wasn't... she would just not be as nice, and not talk... that is passive aggressive... she had me whipped and controlled, and I didn't even know it.
I knew it was there, but accepted it, and didn't even acknowledge it. I wanted to avoid conflict. She also wanted to avoid conflict because I believe she has an avoidant personality disorder.... I love her, but in retrospect, do I want a relationship like that,? Especially since she divorced me.... Things to ponder.... the life of the LBSer is not easy.
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Over time, sensing the discomfort, I avoid going to places where she would withdraw.
I would stop going out with friends over the years because when I came home, there was this withdrawal... I don't want to say there will be hell to pay, because there wasn't... she would just not be as nice, and not talk... that is passive aggressive... she had me whipped and controlled, and I didn't even know it.
I knew it was there, but accepted it, and didn't even acknowledge it. I wanted to avoid conflict.
Oh my goodness, this whole comment Hobo screamed at me. I have never, even now, almost 6 years after reconciliation, actually understood this "passive aggressiveness" everybody spoke of. OMG, I totally see it now. The situation you described above was TOTALLY mine.
I too stopped going to my parents or family, with my h. As I found his withdrawal insulting and bad mannered. Quite frankly, I was always ashamed of his rudeness. Not sure, whether I stopped going to protect myself from the embarrassment and shame I felt at his rudeness, to protect him... or to protect my family, who did not deserve his ignorant disregard for them. My family, are the salt of the earth types. Kind to everybody. Never judged your friends, if they are friend(s) of yours, that is good enough for them... you are accepted and welcomed. He was so rude!
He isn't anymore. Quite surprising how different they can be, once they become aware, THEY ARE NOT GOD... that the sun does not rise and shine over their heads. That there are some really fine people out there, who make you look like a selfish, ignorant A-hole. I really do think my h has been HUMBLED... and to be honest... as you can see, he NEEDED to be.
Everything about this crisis has been humbling, which in my opinion, never hurt anybody. A little reality check now and then. Mind you, this one was pretty EXTREME... nobody will ever convince me this was needed. Although, in regards to myself, I feel I have been changed permanently, so perhaps, I needed something this drastic... shucks!!! :(
hugs Stayed
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When you've been together for a quarter of a century, and maybe have children together, house, business and any number of other things and combined hopes and dreams. And when the person who has been so close to you throughout all of this starts to withdraw, you feel it.
You ask what's going on for them - and they fob you off. You are confused.
They detach some more - you ask again, and you get the same fobbing off.
They get angrier and angrier, and spend less and less time with you and your kids (if you have them), and doing all of the things that they used to do - and then, the piece de resistance - they announce that they are leaving!!! Just like that. And they go.
Of course they are going to think we are controlling when they want to escape and deny responsibility for the life that we had together. It's their perception of our survival response.
Who in their right mind wouldn't be asking 'controlling' questions? Who wouldn't be trying to make sense of the situation and ask them to explain themselves. Who would just say 'that's nice honey - off you go. Have fun'.
I believe this is often a chicken and egg thing. Which came first? Their MLC behaviours and detachment, or our 'control'?
I was just going to say this exact thing, Kikki, when I saw your post and thought, "How sweet of her to have read my mind again and put it into such lovely words. :)
My H never called me controlling (I was told I was too smart, too deep, and like to connect with people). Huh?! :o
BUT, I will say that other points H did mention were in direct response to his MLC behavior, before I knew it was MLC. He was a husband and father detaching from his child and spouse and acting bizarre on top of it. As Kikki said, anyone in a committed relationship who would like to keep it that way, would take notice and try to address it.
And I too found H to be the angry, bitter, controlling one (with our daughter also) even if some of it was passive aggressive. I agree with taking a good long look at ourselves and working on areas we can grow in, but caution may be in order when it comes to taking on more blame than the MLCer already places on us. We really cannot control them and only hindsight is truly 20/20.
Phoenix
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Its always intertesting to read what peoples husbands have said to them, they are all so similar.
Although I got very little monster I did at one point get you are all about me, me, me, goodness that one at the time had me thinking was I really and I he almost had me convinced then I thought hang on a minute you have just described yourself not me.
H hadnt always been a me, me, me, person but has definately been showing those traits since mlc, for all the heartache I have suffered I have to be honest I still find this whole thing facinating (hope that doesnt make me sound sick) I still have hated every minute of it, but to actually read the stories here and be witness to the same kind of madness I think is where the facination comes in, maybe that is the wrong word I dont want to come across as sadistic perhaps intrigue would be a better word.
Lets continue to be intrigued folks its easier on ourselves than believing we had anything to do with this.
x
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I agree with taking a good long look at ourselves and working on areas we can grow in, but caution may be in order when it comes to taking on more blame than the MLCer already places on us. We really cannot control them and only hindsight is truly 20/20.
ABSOLUTELY AGREE! I am delighted with the person that came out of this horrific experience. Stunned to be honest. I honestly would not have expected to see such drastic changes in myself, especially the way they came about.
The truth for me Phoenix, is that the CHANGES were made for me... little old me!!! I do not get as angst, angry, distressed by what others say and do but when and if I do, I speak up and say so, to the PERSON who has caused my angst... not some poor defenseless person who had nothing to do with it. I don't get involved in my children's, friends, relatives woes, I listen, discuss and let them find their own way out of their situations. Pretty much like I do here. I don't know everything, I know I don't, heck, I don't need to. Now, I read, think, suggest or relate how it went down for me and I let it go. When I do find myself becoming too involved, I remove myself for a few days. Back away from the flame, from that NEED to FIX!!! HEHEHE. Man, that is strong in us LBS's hehehe.
I was not for ONE MINUTE suggesting we take on ANY MORE BLAME then what we are truly responsible for. Like you, I think we must be very, very careful about accepting fault. Sure we were not perfect, we all know that. We contributed to the discontent within the marriage, we were not deliriously happy either. That being said, we didn't run out and happen to fall in love with somebody else, or happen to fall into our spouses best friends bed... or anybodies bed for that matter. That doesn't make us saints, I suspect it could HAPPEN to most anybody, if they were not AWARE ( I think their lies the truth), we were not SO arrogant as to think it could not happen to us. The point is, we didn't do it.
So, in regards to their CRISIS... that is "THEIR" problem! NOT OUR'S! That, I know for certain.
hugs Stayed...
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Very much agreed, Stayed and All.
I was not suggesting that anyone was blaming the LBS (except the MLCer :D). I was commenting about the the questioning that seems to go on within the LBS, and even some of the "Relationship Expert" advice out there.
The LBS is trying so hard to make sense of nonsense and undo the horror, that we self-analyze and take to heart every word the MLCer (and counselors, etc.) says at times--dissecting and obsessing over it, often concluding (even if only temporarily) that we are more to blame or have more control than we do. I think this is also a self-preservation tactic of sorts. If we can believe it is our fault then that means we can change ourself and fix everything. The fact that we can't fix it merely by changing ourselves, is a good indicator it is not all our fault. No one is perfect and the self journey is critical), but I say this as a reminder to be careful about our own LBS tendency to place more blame or control on our own shoulders. This, ultimately, is the journey of the MLCer.
Hugs,
Phoenix
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I think this is also a self-preservation tactic of sorts. If we can believe it is our fault then that means we can change ourself and fix everything. The fact that we can't fix it merely by changing ourselves, is a good indicator it is not all our fault.
That's a really good point about this being a self preservation tactic of sorts.
I remember a friend saying to me, your Counsellor is a counsellor, not a sage. (when I was aghast at something that he had said to me).
I think ultimately it is learning all that we can, from many different sources, but at the end of the day, we are the ones with intimate knowledge of ourselves, and how we want to live our lives. That I believe, is one of our biggest lessons. There are no experts.
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The LBS is trying so hard to make sense of nonsense and undo the horror, that we self-analyze and take to heart every word the MLCer (and counselors, etc.) says at times--dissecting and obsessing over it, often concluding (even if only temporarily) that we are more to blame or have more control than we do. I think this is also a self-preservation tactic of sorts. If we can believe it is our fault then that means we can change ourself and fix everything. The fact that we can't fix it merely by changing ourselves, is a good indicator it is not all our fault. No one is perfect and the self journey is critical), but I say this as a reminder to be careful about our own LBS tendency to place more blame or control on our own shoulders. This, ultimately, is the journey of the MLCer.
Hugs,
Phoenix
I completely agree Phoenix... a very wise observation. I can see how an LBS could decide the fault was all theirs, thereby fix themselves and they have fixed their partner. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. WE must never forget, that that is totally false. We can ONLY fix ourselves. The MLCer is the only person who can fix him/her.
Hugs Stayed
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I think ultimately it is learning all that we can, from many different sources, but at the end of the day, we are the ones with intimate knowledge of ourselves, and how we want to live our lives. That I believe, is one of our biggest lessons. There are no experts.
This is the truest thing EVER said! The sooner we learn and accept that, the better off we all will be.
hugs Stayed
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Crzyjourney-
Even though this is the most painful experience I've ever had in my life, I too find MLCer fascinating! The way the go according to the script, how very similar their actions are.... It truly is amazing. Despite different backgrounds, and different countries, they all seem to behave similarly.
It does sound sadistic doesn't it?
As MLC is basically temporary depression, I suppose depression is also known globally.... but basically it's a disease of westernized culture isn't it? I'm not sure if there are many folks going through depression or MLC in the jungles of Africa.
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Hey TB,
How would someone know if a person in Africa was going through it? I also don't think it happens there, but how would we ever know? I remember OP telling me about a fellow LBSer from Egypt whose W was MLC. Funny thing is that D is illegal there and one or both of them could be killed for it. Kind of adds a different twist to "Eat, Pray Love" doesn't it? What if this happened in the ancient times? MLCers would be fed to lions or burned at the stake as witches (makes you wonder, huh?). I was thinking today about how much impact 9/11 had on our generation and whether or not unresolved existential issues stemming from that might have alot to do with what our spouses are going through. I think we all felt vulnerable and mortal on that day, and the subsequent mass hysteria brought upon my the media sure as heck didn't help us to calm down and realize life would be okay. Just a random thought, but I do suspect there being some sort of link between 9/11 and the high number of MLCers now.
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How would someone know if a person in Africa was going through it? I also don't think it happens there, but how would we ever know? I remember OP telling me about a fellow LBSer from Egypt whose W was MLC. Funny thing is that D is illegal there and one or both of them could be killed for it. Kind of adds a different twist to "Eat, Pray Love" doesn't it? What if this happened in the ancient times? MLCers would be fed to lions or burned at the stake as witches (makes you wonder, huh?).
From RCR's MLC Overview article
Since midlife crisis seems to be isolated to technologically advanced Western cultures lacking in ritual rites of passage, ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions.
I was thinking today about how much impact 9/11 had on our generation and whether or not unresolved existential issues stemming from that might have alot to do with what our spouses are going through. I think we all felt vulnerable and mortal on that day, and the subsequent mass hysteria brought upon my the media sure as heck didn't help us to calm down and realize life would be okay. Just a random thought, but I do suspect there being some sort of link between 9/11 and the high number of MLCers now.
I think MLC is directly linked to unresolved issues from an earlier age. Events like 9/11 certainly led to trauma, but I am not sure events like that lead to MLC.
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I think it is very possible that events such as 9/11 (for those not directly affected....) can have an effect similar to a more personal bereavement, and thus can act as a trigger. I know that I, elsewhere in the world, did feel that the world had irrevocably changed then, and that can trigger thoughts of one's own mortality, what is left to accomplish, is one on the right path, etc.
I'm not saying that it leads directly to an MLC, but together with whatever else is going on it can certainly push in that direction. So if there are unresolved issues from an earlier age a huge event such as that can push it, in much the same was that the death of someone close, for example, can be the final straw.
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According to some of those "experts" that I've read, there is relatively little evidence of MLC in Eastern cultures, specifically those that honor their aged.
I've had my head handed to me for saying these things in times past but I believe MLC IS a problem in the western world because we are more focused on youth, beauty, and "success", whatever that may mean. I also believe it is because we are spoiled, in need of very little, and generally not having to look for our next meal and so forth.
I don't believe that is the whole story though...I combine that with FOO issues, possible hormonal issues, and a few other things which make up the perfect storm that becomes the MLC. My H has repeatedly told me he would not have had an MLC were he in a place that finding food or avoiding slaugher took up all of his waking moments. That's coming right from the horses mouth...so why shouldn't I believe it?
I'm not in any way indicting the Western World. I would not live anywhere that was not so politically/technically/socially advanced...not for a minute. But in having it so good, in general, doesn't it stand to reason we might take that for granted and not appreciate things? We throw away everything. We worship the superficial. Isn't that lack of appreciation one of the hallmarks of MLC?
Bon
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Well BonBon, I won't hand you your head on a platter, in fact my h and I have had the exact same discussion. For example how many people in Africa put their fingers down their throats to make themselves barf, so they can enjoy the "taste" of the food but not have to digest it and then get fat. Tell me, how selfish is that in a world where half the people are scraping and scavenging for a few grains of rice?
I don't find it hard to believe in the slightest that a bunch of spoiled, pampered, ninnies, who would prefer to sit around feeling miserable then go out and perhaps help some needy people or rescue an animal, or heck go fly a kite with some little boy or girl who doesn't have parents. Oh that would be too easy I guess!
Hugs... Stayed
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Thankyou Stayed...I am going to avoid "ninny-dom" from here on in! LOL!
But you are right in all you said...I didn't even think of some of those other maladies such as anorexia and so on. Good point. Certainly, when you're sole purpose is survival, literally, life would be very different indeed.
Hugs,
Bon
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My H has repeatedly told me he would not have had an MLC were he in a place that finding food or avoiding slaugher took up all of his waking moments. That's coming right from the horses mouth...so why shouldn't I believe it?
From RCR's article What is A Midlife Crisis?
I find self-reporting to be possibly the least reliable source--since MLCers deny they are having an MLC, during the crisis and may deny their past experience once the crisis is complete.
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My H has repeatedly told me he would not have had an MLC were he in a place that finding food or avoiding slaugher took up all of his waking moments. That's coming right from the horses mouth...so why shouldn't I believe it?
From RCR's article What is A Midlife Crisis?
I find self-reporting to be possibly the least reliable source--since MLCers deny they are having an MLC, during the crisis and may deny their past experience once the crisis is complete.
OMG.... please!!!! So now we TOTALLY disregard any evidence from the actual source of the disturbance. OMG. PLEASE! After all, WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW????
::) ::) ::)
I'll remember to that particular COMMENT to the bank DGU!
Hugs Stayed
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I've heard from the spouses of several men that have come through MLC, and AFTER they are through, sometimes quite a while after, they are then good at saying what it was like. As unreliable as they were while in the thick of it, they are now very reliable about it. Their fog has cleared. They are, of course, two examples of those who are willing to talk about it, at least to their spouse if not to anyone else.
I also not the example of one of us here who has written her story about being on the other side of the coin, and also a male who realises that he was coming out of his own MLC and then his wife went in... both are now very reliable sources of what it was like.
So I think that while it's true that self-reporting is not a good source while it is going on, afterwards it may well be.
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My H has repeatedly told me he would not have had an MLC were he in a place that finding food or avoiding slaugher took up all of his waking moments. That's coming right from the horses mouth...so why shouldn't I believe it?
From RCR's article What is A Midlife Crisis?
I find self-reporting to be possibly the least reliable source--since MLCers deny they are having an MLC, during the crisis and may deny their past experience once the crisis is complete.
OMG.... please!!!! So now we TOTALLY disregard any evidence from the actual source of the disturbance. OMG. PLEASE! After all, WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW????
::) ::) ::)
I'll remember to that particular COMMENT to the bank DGU!
Hugs Stayed
I don't read in what RCR wrote where it says totally disregard.
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:o
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DGU,
Perhaps a bit of an explanation:
One thing that was unusual about my husband during this whole thing is that he always knew and admitted this was (is) a midlife crisis. He actually planted the idea in my head early on when I had no idea what was going on. There were certainly times when he bristled if I refered to an "MLC" because he was embarrassed but he never once denied it.
At other times he would refer to this term on his own and so I think that he actually had some sort of clarity about what was going on despite his fog or lack of ability or motivation to do anything about it.
He was a low energy MLCer and didn't lay waste to everything in his life as some do (though certainly enough waste laying went on...but I digress)....so maybe that clarity he had is why he was low energy...or perhaps being low energy afforded him the clarity...I don't really know which.
Not even sure it applies at all but its a thought.
Either way, I think that a self admitted statement that put him in an obviously negative light, admitting that he was going through something afforded to him because he has a relatively comfortable life, is quite honest and insightful. With all the bravado and nonsense that I heard, this was the one thing that seemed to be achingly truthful and the only time I saw any sort of shame and admission. Though I know better than to believe most things coming from an MLCer, I don't think I could dismiss moments of clarity such as this. I think many MLCers have these insights...I just doubt they often admit them while in full MLC.
Bon
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My H has repeatedly told me he would not have had an MLC were he in a place that finding food or avoiding slaugher took up all of his waking moments. That's coming right from the horses mouth...so why shouldn't I believe it?
From RCR's article What is A Midlife Crisis?
I find self-reporting to be possibly the least reliable source--since MLCers deny they are having an MLC, during the crisis and may deny their past experience once the crisis is complete.
OMG.... please!!!! So now we TOTALLY disregard any evidence from the actual source of the disturbance. OMG. PLEASE! After all, WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW? ???
I want to clarify that comment.
Stayed has a point. But most MLCers--or former MLCers--do not self-report as having had or being in MLC. Some of the surveys taken to determine the prevalence of MLC are based on asking questions of men (some may include women) either years after the MLC age range or perhaps within it. They ask if looking back, the men thought they had an MLC.
Well, looking back Sweetheart would answer in the affirmative, but come on guys, how can he not given what happened to us AND that we reconciled and what I'm doing now. But he might not be able to describe the experience--not as I have described it (ironic). And if I'd divorced him or not Stood and he divorced me...what would he say then? If he were regretting the situation and wanting me back, maybe he'd answer in the affirmative, if not, his answer would likely be NO--a big NO.
What I feel lacks credibility in self-reporting is using the answers to determine the prevalence of MLC. Most (former) MLCers still deny or don't know they had one. That doesn't mean the few who say they had an MCL are dismissed. They may be the few lights of insight. But they may also be the milder cases and so they may lack the insight of the worst case scenarios-or not, just guessing about them being milder.
And many early MLCers do self-report. They are just tossing out excuses and possibilities, but they don't dwell on the idea and as they go deeper they move on to the teenager level where they are fine and know everything and were wrong before when they suggested MLC.
Think of it like an addict. Do alcoholics deny they are alcoholics?
Yes
Do they all deny for all time?
Certainly not, acceptance is a step to recovery.
But what data should we use to determine the prevalence of alcoholism? Should we ask everyone and use the results as reliable data--knowing that those not in recovery deny?
And if we want to know what an alcoholic is like in the throes of addiction--away from recovery and in most cases firmly entrenched in denial--who do we ask?
Do we ask an observer--spouse, sibling, parent, offspring...?
Do we ask the alcoholic in recovery who can look back?
Do we ask the alcoholic in the throes?
In the case of addiction, a recovering addict may or may not be able to offer insight into their state during addiction--more than some MLCers.
And caregivers can offer insight with a different perception.
But we the data from the denyers is unreliable. DUH
MLC is not addiction in the true sense--since an alcoholic will always have an addiction toalcohol and it will always be one day at a time. MLC is a phase and hopefully once an MLCer comes through, they are really through. But that means they don't have to come to a place of recovery fro their denial. They may go Liminal, but it is more subjective. With alcoholism the problem is booze--though ther emay be many root issues. But with MLC there is not a core problem in the same literal manner. The MLCer finds their Self, maybe there's an epiphany and wake up Friday having gone to sleep Wednesday and missed Thursday--the MLC Thursday is a blur.
So I do find self-reporting to lack credibility...but really I mean that about those who deny it, not those who admit it. Former MLCers who acknowledge they had a crisis may have valid insight; it's just that those guys are rare.
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My husband never admitted to MLC during his crisis. In fact, he would sneer when that possibility was even mentioned and become quite "monstrous". It was after we reconciled that he admitted it could have been an MLC. Quite frankly, I felt and certainly told him, that it seemed pretty convenient to me, that "suddenly" he could see he was in a crisis, when throughout the whole ordeal, he mocked and sneered, if I so much as suggested such a possibility. He can see my point.
I agree about the addiction stuff RCR, but I am not talking about that part of it. I think most RECOVERED addicts see what they were like. I am a recovering Nicotine addict, I now see what I was like but at the time, I offered up every excuse in the world why "now" was not a good time to quit. If I had never quit, would I still be offering excuses, MOST LIKELY? If my h had not reconciled with me, would he be thinking he had a crisis, I tend to think YES.
I have spoken to recovered MLCer's who lost their wife/husband, family and severe financial loss, and ALL of them, wish it had not turned out as it did. Each of them have told me, that to this day, they know their original spouse was the best "mate" for them. If they could have done things differently, or if they could have a "re-do", they would not have forsaken their spouse. In all of their cases, their spouses had MOVED ON. This was/is not the case, with couples who simply divorced. Any of my friends who divorced due to irreconcilable differences, have no regrets. In fact, most of them are quite happily remarried and have remained friends with their X's.
I understand you have done the research RCR, I am not arguing with you about your conclusions. I simply feel that the MLCer's do know, do understand what they went through and that in the end, when they are FINALLY at peace with themselves, they KNOW what they have experienced. Better then you or I, who have never been through a mid life crisis.
I must disagree with you on this RCR, I will and do TRUST the words from my husbands mouth, over anything you or anybody else has to say. My h is not a man to discuss his "feelings/personal experiences", for him to actually come forward and express his thoughts is unique in itself. The whole experience has left him perplexed and questioning. I believe he is still processing!
Former MLCers who acknowledge they had a crisis may have valid insight; it's just that those guys are rare.
Oops went back and reread your whole comment and saw this! Guess most of my disagreement with you was not a disagreement hehehe... as mine does acknowledge he had a crisis and he does have some very valid "insight", which he shares sparingly.
I must say though, I just HATE the way DGU throws out your FINDINGS as though they are the LAST and FINAL answer to EVERYTHING concerning MLC. I do not believe for one moment then any ONE person, has totally BROKEN THE CODE on this thing called MLC.
Hugs Stayed
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I for one am often glad for DGU's reminders, I don't take them as the last and final word on MLC, but more as a reminder that this IS mlc. They serve to calm me when I get agitated, and let me think straight again and get on with life.
And you are right, stayed, no one person has unlocked the final code, as each case, much as it shares broad similarities, in the end is individual.
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Just want to add my 2 cents worth.
When my h left for a short while the first time (I think I dragged him back from tunnel) afterwards once or twice he said things like did I really say that and did I really do that, also our youngest son was doing his exams at the time and I have to say I couldnt believe his timing about deciding to leave, any normal person would have hung on a while longer so as not to disturb sons studies wouldnt they. However at that time I knew nothing of mlc.
Fast forward to this time round which obviously has gone full blown and when we tried to discuss things in the begining when my head was realing one of the things h said was I dont know call it a midlife crises or whatever but blah blah blah, interesting isnt it. I never said anything at the time because again I didnt have a clue and I havent mentioned mlc since, but he did metion it that one time.
Thought I would mention these things as it is all more information for us to piece together, not so great that I got a second shot at it though eh!
x
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RCR,
I read this thread and ralized that when my H told his best friend "what can I say, I guess I am in MLC" I now realize that this was H trying to give an explanation for his behaviors and for him to give himself some peace of mind....I guess now that he can point his finger at MLC he doesn't have to point it towards himself....I guess I am just at the beginning of this and I better start moving on with my life so that my children have the best possible childhood...he is not even deep in it....my H is simply at the beginning (and knowing his personality, he will most likely be in it for a VERY long time....maybe the next time we see each other I will have one strand of grey hair...he gets more grey hair by the day...hehe....)
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5 days before h left he kept saying he felt like he was in a fog and felt like a ship adrift at sea
A few days later h seemed to have a nervous breakdown and said had an urge to run
In those earlier few days we joked about him having a midlife crisis.
H laughed and said it couldn't be because he hadn't bought a red sportscar.
The day of that conversation although he was very troubled about how he was feeling there was NO indication that he was thinking about leaving our marriage.
H saw an IC the day before he left
When he came home from IC he said she told him he was depressed and in a midlife crisis.
H left the next day and in the months following when I would calmly try to get him to consider that he may be depressed he could not/would not acknowledge it
16 months after BD H told me he thought he had been depressed and may still be.
OMJ
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When and if they admit it is/was an MLC, it can go either way. Even if they know it is in fact an MLC, it is an embarrasing term...because most people do think of an MLC as some idiot with a young honey on his arm and a sportscar in the driveway. No one wants to be thought of as that...even though that is the truth in some cases. So it doesn't surprise me many MLCers would reject the term. It also implies something temporary which doesn't back up their typical claims of knowing what they want after all these years, or finally finding their permanent happiness right?
So I think that's why man of them reject what is so obvious to the rest of us.
It can be good for them to realize it while its occuring because it can at times reign them in a bit or keep them from being too, too, too depressed...better to know what is going on than wonder why you feel so lousy.
On the other hand, my H has acknowledged it from the get-go but being a crafty MLCer, he has used it as an excuse from time to time as well. I would say this or balk at that and he would say "well, you know what the problem is, I'm having an MLC!" as if this gave him license to act like a jackbutt with no accountability.
I will always maintain and no one will ever convince me otherwise (sorry to sound like an MLCer) that if you were unsure where your next meal was coming from or had to fight just to stay alive, your midlife transition would not wind up a midlife crisis. So when I hear some psychologist, writer, whatever, trying to in any way blame the spouse, my head nearly explodes. THAT kind of thinking is why MLCers have been able to justify their actions to begin with...its NEVER THEIR fault, right????
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BonBon,
I sometimes feel the same that if they didn't have the financial means to run and run and run, they would be less likely to get into crisis mode....back in the olden days (post war in europe) no one had the luxury to not go to work or quit their jobs or not provide for their family. Our society today with the idea of immediate gratification and with the financial means has allowed these MLCers to flourish and run...it is no surprise that my H's parents who are quite elderly cannot even start to understand him and are in complete shock (his actions are also affecting their health and he could care less....he says they are being over dramatic...it is not a big deal to walk away from family if that is what "HE WANTS"....always all about them)!
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http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/06/23/why-so-many-baby-boomers-are-getting-divorced/
Taking RCR's suggestion, I'll begin this thread by weighing in on my opinions first. While I'm more Baby than Baby Boomer, there are many here who this will apply to and have a better perspective on this than me due to experience. I think the author makes some good points but I also struggle with their assertions as to why the divorce rate has doubled in the over-50 group. I disagree with communication being the number 1 issue although it does play a part for sure. I don't see where the author acknowledges that society encourages selfishness and personal gain rather than commitment to values and another person. I also don't think that perfecting divorce will improve marriages either.
"A really healthy marriage is hard to puncture, but one that is on somewhat-shady ground is very easy to puncture. It really gets back to the individuals and how they feel about infidelity based perhaps on their beliefs, value system and background. Infidelity is used as a catalyst reason for ending a marriage 50-70% of the time."
In this paragraph I again think the author doesn't completely get it. Rock solid marriages can be crumbled very easily as just about anyone on here would testify. In fact, given all that I have learned from this past year I don't know what I would recommend to newlywed couples to prevent D down the road. I thought I had all my bases covered, but as I was thinking tonight I can now say that my W left me over a year ago and I'm still not sure why. I am a card-carrying member of the "Cult of MLC" but all I really have in the end is speculation and no tangible proof or tests.
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I have been thinking about this sort of thing lately, Thundarr, about how our culture shapes our views on issues like divorce. Fact is, if myself and my husband were living in, say, Nepal, neither of us would be so concerned with whether we were "happy" or not; instead, we'd be quite content day to day scrounging enough food to keep body and soul together. The existential questions like whether I've arrived or not, how I measure up to my peers, and whether I'm completing life's "checklist" wouldn't come into play at all, I don't guess.
Or if we lived in the Congo, maybe not getting kidnapped or shot day to day would satisfy our sense of accomplishment. Beth Moore, a Christian teacher/speaker has said that, "Few people have grateful hearts like captives who have been freed or the afflicted who have been healed." I love being an American but it has spoiled me to a certain degree and I am not sure how to make sure I stay grounded.
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I watched six magicians perform at a special place the other night. They were awesome. I mean remarkable. I know that it was an illusion and a trick. But during the show, I let go of reality and speculation and just marveled at each performer and admired their work.
Thundarr, MLC takes faith. You have to have faith in your w, faith in yourself, and faith in GOD that all will come back into place. What you seek is not in an article, or a seminar, or a good speech. It is not about alpha or beta traits, it is about being honest and true to yourself. When I talk about self work and making changes, I am not saying start all over. The MLCer feels that by going back, they can start over. They think they are starting everything "new" and in the end replay really ends when the MLCer realizes nothing has changed and that have torn up their own farm. The LBSer doesn't throw out their identity- they refine and enhance that which is already there. It is what is within you and your belief that all will come out fine.
Right now, enjoy your daughters and you wonderful son. Let go and just believe. Forget the dating websites and just be content with what you have right now. A family that loves you and that you love. Trust and have faith that she will come back. No need to jump ship or throw in the towel. Stand aside and let GOD work on your wife and stop analyzing her.
Once you let go and start living for you and the children, then the magic can begin.
God bless you and your children
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Beautiful post Ready.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, great job sir!
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I truly believe that our answers will not be found in statistics or articles. MLC is the ignored situation for many reasons, but I think mostly because it puts holes in so many theories and belief systems that no one wants to admit it could happen even to them. It is always hardest to admit you are a member of a group that could have something terrible happen to you, easier by far to stay safely tucked into whatever belief system you subscribe to and keep your blinders on whenever something like this comes along to endanger it.
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Very true, Riv. Very true. Everyone likes to think they are immune to things they detest in others and we also feel like we really are governed by free will. We also like to think that living right and doing what society teaches is proper will protect us from tragedies and heartaches in our life but sadly we were mistaken.
Ready, I do focus about 99% of my attention on me and the kids but the reality is that I see the pain etched in their faces. I may be in the minority, but I cannot find a way to feel truly happy if I know my kids are suffering or miserable. I could be sick as a dog but laugh hysterically, but if one of my kids is sick I'm in no mood to laugh. Probably to empathetic and emotional on my part but oh well. Yesterday D11 was dropped off by W because W was going out to eat with D19. D11 was very bratty toward me and completely dissed the coming home gift I got her. I believe W feels like she dumps the kids on me when she doesn't want to be bothered with them and they feel it too. Before anyone suggests the visitation schedule, let me say that I want to send them the message that I am always happy to have them and would have them every day if possible (and I usually do). I feel that knowing they are ALWAYS wanted by at least one parent will help prevent them from internalizing the damage to their self esteem and spending the rest of their lives feeling unwanted or unworthy as I see so many kids in treatment do. They know this is home and that Mommy is like an aunt who picks them up, spoils them and then brings them home. I am the parent and I want them to have as much security as I did at their age even though I know it is harder on me.
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I truly believe that our answers will not be found in statistics or articles. MLC is the ignored situation for many reasons, but I think mostly because it puts holes in so many theories and belief systems that no one wants to admit it could happen even to them. It is always hardest to admit you are a member of a group that could have something terrible happen to you, easier by far to stay safely tucked into whatever belief system you subscribe to and keep your blinders on whenever something like this comes along to endanger it.
I have found many answers in articles. But information about MLC probably will not be found in articles that are not about MLC.
One of the reasons I became familiar with Jim Conway's materials is because I am of the same belief system he is. As Conway describes, being a part of a belief system does not stop life's processes.
Here is something RCR writes in the article A Midlife Metaphor that I believe fits with what Conway is saying.
The danger is from those who do not understand and are thus unaccepting of this natural state and seek to fix the problem
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I was looking forward to reading this since I'm a BB and my H is as well..the last year of BB's actually.
I don't think this article in any way explained anything actually. They say economic feasability is part of the reason...well sure, lots of women can now support themselves but that doesn't mean you're going to divorce.
They touch on indidelity...duh....tell me WHY all the infidelity please.
I think this article did not even scrape the surface...and this woman interviewed was an expert?
No wonder there is so little to be found out there on these issues...thank God for this forum, eh?
Wed, my H has admitted many times he would not be having an MLC if he lived in the Sudan...or Syria...etc....I 100% believe this is cultural in large part.
Bon
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I watched six magicians perform at a special place the other night. They were awesome. I mean remarkable. I know that it was an illusion and a trick. But during the show, I let go of reality and speculation and just marveled at each performer and admired their work.
Thundarr, MLC takes faith. You have to have faith in your w, faith in yourself, and faith in GOD that all will come back into place. What you seek is not in an article, or a seminar, or a good speech. It is not about alpha or beta traits, it is about being honest and true to yourself. When I talk about self work and making changes, I am not saying start all over. The MLCer feels that by going back, they can start over. They think they are starting everything "new" and in the end replay really ends when the MLCer realizes nothing has changed and that have torn up their own farm. The LBSer doesn't throw out their identity- they refine and enhance that which is already there. It is what is within you and your belief that all will come out fine.
Right now, enjoy your daughters and you wonderful son. Let go and just believe. Forget the dating websites and just be content with what you have right now. A family that loves you and that you love. Trust and have faith that she will come back. No need to jump ship or throw in the towel. Stand aside and let GOD work on your wife and stop analyzing her.
Once you let go and start living for you and the children, then the magic can begin.
God bless you and your children
I agree wholeheartedly except for two things:
1. If God lets terrible things happen at the hands of Adolph Hitler, Jerry Sandusky, Charlie Manson, etc., why would he even bother with the comparatively trivial hardships that I am facing at the hands of my wife? I'm confused as to why would he let such evil hurt so many people but somehow, just for me, he is going to step in to stop the evil that I am faced with. I am not saying that God doesn't step in on occasion, but I can clearly point to an overwhelming number of events where I can't see that he did. If "letting God handle it" results in the Holocaust, I think I will do what I can to handle it myself.
2. The hypocrisy that we espouse when we tell each other and ourselves that "we have to live our lives as if they are not coming back" and then immediately qualify that statement by advising against finding someone else as a mate and a partner. Sure, sure, we don't want anyone to rush into another bad relationship, but... quite frankly, we are giving up years of our lives waiting around for someone that's just not worth our time any more. My candid advice for anyone in our situation is to figure out how to spot the other time bombs out there and then find someone who will actually care about you and respect you as a human being.
Look, I don't mean to dash the hopes of anyone out there, but our future is in OUR hands and its up to us to go and get it. And to the extent that someone doesn't want to share our furutre with us, that's their choice, not ours.
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I think my W is worth it...........
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Tell me, Thundarr, let's say that you are dating a woman and she tells you "I'm just not in love with you and I'm going to start spending my time with someone else.", what would you do? How would you interpret that? Would you just tell yourself that "she's worth it" and not date anyone else? Or would you just say "Wow, that sucks. Oh well. Let me get your stuff." and just move on with your life? What would you advise one of your patients to do?
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I would wish her well and HO on about my way. This is different in that my W is not only the woman who I have sworn a commitment to, but also the mother of my children and someone who deserves much credit for where I am today education and career-wise. Had she said or done this before we were married or became co-parents I would have no reason to stand. I've had all the thoughts you mentioned, my friend, but when I think about things without anger affecting my views I accept that my W is not thinking clearly and I know how much she loves the kids....and me.
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we are giving up years of our lives waiting around for someone that's just not worth our time any more.
I think my W is worth it...........
I would wish her well and HO on about my way. This is different in that my W is not only the woman who I have sworn a commitment to, but also the mother of my children and someone who deserves much credit for where I am today education and career-wise. Had she said or done this before we were married or became co-parents I would have no reason to stand. I've had all the thoughts you mentioned, my friend, but when I think about things without anger affecting my views I accept that my W is not thinking clearly and I know how much she loves the kids....and me.
Well said Thundarr,
now get on living your life "as if" she is not coming back.
I DO agree with what you said but I think you still have some rope left to drop.
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Maybe that's the difference. I can honestly look back over my life and say that I am the man that I am today DESPITE my wife. My education, my integrity, my honor, my experience, and my career, among almost everything else, were all established before I married her. I was a grown man looking to marry a grown woman, but that's not what happened. She was a child who just didn't invest herself in anything other than feeling "happy" and, when the time was right for her, she just pulled the plug altogether. As she has told me quite plainly a multitude of times, she felt overly-burdened to have even been involved at all with my life, or the lives of my children. At the time that I first heard this, it was news to me. But now, connecting the dots, her trajectory has been pretty clear. This is not anger, my friend, this is the truth.
Side note:
It's interesting that I had never called anyone 'angry' in my entire life. I had called them 'pissed off', but never 'angry'. I now realize that this word is a label that people use as a self-defense mechanism to avoid having to deal with what is being said to them. Life is so much easier if we just label the messenger as being 'angry' when we don't like the message. "Bully" is a similar word that people use to label someone who scares them or is otherwise doing something that they don't like. Just the other day, someone cut in line in front of me at the bank and I politely informed them that the line started further back. They wheeled around and yelled "You so angry!" at the top of her lungs. This caught the attention of the security guard and I motioned to him to give her the hook. As she was being escorted from the building, she was calling him a bully. This must be a generational thing, beause I see this kind of thing all the time now.
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I have a lot of rope left to drop OldPilot and this talk really hit home, made me very uncomfortable because I to have had these thoughts but all to recently for comfort. I keep trying to put them out of my mind but they creep back in each time she spews about divorce. I am still Standing and still thinking things will eventually work out but it is still painful to read someone else that is thinking he is wasting his life and time waiting for someone that does not care about him at all. Makes me cycle uncomfortably between to opposing viewpoints. But each time I decide to Stand it makes my commitment that much stronger so I do not care, ultimately we have to live with ourselves and if we are comfortable with our decision then so be it. In a way it is the fact that we do have to live with ourselves that I am banking on to bring her around in the end, knowing her as well as I do I know the real W could not live with these decisions that have been made by the shadow self and that she will eventually want to make things better.
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Clearly each case is different.
The time our MLC uses to go do thier own "thing" is the time where we get to decide if, why and how we should stand. It is a time when things have slowed down so that we can determine how much of this is the person we loved, but did not see before. Sometimes we may realize we were blind to who they were before all this. Sometimes we realize we weren't blind to all that much, and they have just had some sort of a breakdown if you will. And everything in between.
I can't compare this to someone whom I've just started dating. Dating someone means you have little to no time invested, are probably not in any sort of deep love or committment, and have not taken vows which state for better or worse.
I had a wonderful husband for 12 years. There were problems that I did not see or did not grasp as large as they were. But they did not mean we did not have a loving and mutually agreeable relationship before this happened.
The last three years have been hurtful and horrible and yet, I have learned alot I needed to learn. I would have been happy just as it was but I never thought life would be a fairy tale. I took vows knowing one or both of us could become incapaciated or dependent at any time. I thought about that long and hard before we got married. I didn't imagine an MLC testing my committment but it has. There have been times when I have wanted to walk...but I decided to see it through for me...not for him...for me. I don't have kids...I work and can support myself...I do have a dog but other than that, I could have easily walked. I chose not to because my vows mean something to me. Because the 12 years before this mean something to me. Because the thought of dating or starting a new relationship is about the very last thing on this earth I have any interest in. I am fortunate that my H did not leave but he could have, and did mentally.
Had I come to realize he was not the man I knew, he was an imposter, I would have left. I believe the MLC in him is what has caused the imposter to emerge. And it can be fixed. He can do it if he wants to.
I am glad that I stood because now we are picking up the broken shards and trying to put it all back together. We have a long way to go...but we are working on it individually and as a couple. It might not have worked out this way...but I would never have known had I just thrown my hands up. I don't judge anyone who just walks out...but I can't see why anyone would feel badly if they chose to stay, regardless of the outcome. I'm a part of the generation who throws everything out the minute it breaks...and I don't want to be like so many others I know.
No one here or anywhere, can determine those answers for any of us. It is ours as individuals to decide if this person is worth standing for.
Bon
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Very well said, Bon and Riven. Each case is different, and in many ways I guess mine is pretty mild. My W just left and didn't do anything to disrupt my time with the kids and I still see them almost every day (and could see them every day if I wished). She didn't take anything of any value to me nor did she try to get me to bankroll her new life and I pay her nothing. Also there's no blatant OM and may not be one at all. It's probably about an amicable of a leaving as she could have made and my life didn't change that much with the exception of the emotional turmoil. If the situation were different, especially like some of Doc's and my friends on LT, then I may be looking at things a different way. And in Doc's case he has to deal with this in his face constantly and has had to rearrange much of his life around it due to his W not parenting. Having remembered what it was like living with my W leading up to BD I can say I'm glad she moved out in many ways (her apartment was totally trashed, like 20 teenagers had a wild party there or something). Each day is painful and I'm very tired of this whole mess I've been in for over a year but here I still am and I don't have any plans to change that any time soon. A couple friends from here have recently decided to pursue other relationships and I wish them nothing but the best, and that may come for me sometime in the future but not any time soon. My kids still don't accept my W's leaving and will likely reject her more than they have if she goes through with the D since they know there is no good reason for it. If I were to start dating before they perceive the marriage as being over then I too will look like a hypocrite in their eyes and no person is worth that. Anyway, I've wrote alot to say a little here so I'll leave it at that.
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If God lets terrible things happen at the hands of Adolph Hitler, Jerry Sandusky, Charlie Manson, etc., why would he even bother with the comparatively trivial hardships that I am facing at the hands of my wife? I'm confused as to why would he let such evil hurt so many people but somehow, just for me, he is going to step in to stop the evil that I am faced with. I am not saying that God doesn't step in on occasion, but I can clearly point to an overwhelming number of events where I can't see that he did. If "letting God handle it" results in the Holocaust, I think I will do what I can to handle it myself.
The evil you face is the doubt planted by Satan. That is how the LBSer is killed off by the seeds of doubt. Is it really MLC? or not? The LBSer envies the MLCer, why is she having all the fun? Don't I deserve the fun too? Slowly but surely the LBSer loses focus and then there is no chance for survival.
There is evil and uncertainty to everything. The Holocaust was not caused by GOD. In fact he gave us all opportunity to stand up and speak out. I know that if I was in Germany at that time, I would have been shot too because I would have spoken against the regime. I have never been afraid to speak out against what I felt was wrong. GOD works in many ways, yet he never promised paradise while on this planet.
I could be killed in a car accident today. Am I planning for it? Do I start a hedonistic life-style because I may not be here tomorrow? Even if there was no MLC and my wife was doing these things, I still have the choice- to stand for my marriage or file for divorce.
"we have to live our lives as if they are not coming back" and then immediately qualify that statement by advising against finding someone else as a mate and a partner.
I am not trying to get into an argument. My aunt was married for years, no children, and then her husband died. She lived for another 16 years after he passed. She did not have another partner. She is buried right next to her husband.
Doc, I am not telling you how to live your life. However, this is a forum about standing for your marriage. If you are keeping to your vows, you don't date or pursue new partners. If you want someone new, then divorce your wife and proceed. I won't condemn you or be angry with you at all. It is your choice and your power.
I am not a hypocrite. I lead and follow the life I choose. I recognize it is my choice and there are others that chose to live their life differently. I also recognize that not all marriages will be saved and my own may still end in a divorce. The "live" your "life" means not to spend the next two years analyzing your spouse while engaged in a self-pity party. That despite all, life does go on.
Side note:
It's interesting that I had never called anyone 'angry' in my entire life. I had called them 'pissed off', but never 'angry'. I now realize that this word is a label that people use as a self-defense mechanism to avoid having to deal with what is being said to them. Life is so much easier if we just label the messenger as being 'angry' when we don't like the message. "Bully" is a similar word that people use to label someone who scares them or is otherwise doing something that they don't like. Just the other day, someone cut in line in front of me at the bank and I politely informed them that the line started further back. They wheeled around and yelled "You so angry!" at the top of her lungs. This caught the attention of the security guard and I motioned to him to give her the hook. As she was being escorted from the building, she was calling him a bully. This must be a generational thing, beause I see this kind of thing all the time now.
There are many labels that people affix to avoid things. I don't see you as angry. In fact you are a highly intelligent and rational person. I do not post against you or anyone else in anger. The point of our difference is based upon faith in MLC and the process. Whether one believes or does not believe is not right or wrong. The issue arises when you have one foot in each camp. You either believe in GOD or you don't. In this case, you either accept MLC or you don't. There are times when your faith waffles, but the faith is still there.
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There are many labels that people affix to avoid things. I don't see you as angry. In fact you are a highly intelligent and rational person. I do not post against you or anyone else in anger. The point of our difference is based upon faith in MLC and the process. Whether one believes or does not believe is not right or wrong. The issue arises when you have one foot in each camp. You either believe in GOD or you don't. In this case, you either accept MLC or you don't. There are times when your faith waffles, but the faith is still there.
Well said Ready well said, though I am not very religious I do find myself often with one foot in each camp when it comes to MLC and it is rough. I think I am running out of arguments though and hopefully will find some peace in my decision to Stand sooner rather then later.
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The hypocrisy that we espouse when we tell each other and ourselves that "we have to live our lives as if they are not coming back" and then immediately qualify that statement by advising against finding someone else as a mate and a partner. Sure, sure, we don't want anyone to rush into another bad relationship, but... quite frankly, we are giving up years of our lives waiting around for someone that's just not worth our time any more.
Live our lives as if they are not coming back is a way of encouraging the LBS to detach and get their focus off the MLCer.
My ex-wife is very much worth my time.
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Perhaps we need to consider a bit of re-wording. Maybe rather than "live your life like they are not coming back," we could change the verbiage to "Live your life as if they are not there." Which, of course, would be true.
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Perhaps we need to consider a bit of re-wording. Maybe rather than "live your life like they are not coming back," we could change the verbiage to "Live your life as if they are not there." Which, of course, would be true.
Not in all cases my dear Thundarr, mine is very much right in my face all the time. lol
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Mine is very away but with his constant court cases he remains a elephant in the room. I’m one of those who, if it wasn’t for husband’s constantly making divorce hard (don’t ask me why since at BD he was one the one mad for one) would had been remarried by now. After all I’ve spend the past 5.9 years legally married without a marriage or a husband.
Frankly, it is waste of my life, my fertile years, and a huge financial damage. Lawyers cost a fortune. I have dated, I have no problem with that. However, since I remain legally married, it is never possible to move further on with anyone. One remains forever in the date part or has to go and cohabitate while still married. I don’t find the last attractive. I want to be free to lead my life.
Living like they are never coming back to me means divorce, date, remarry. I've always said that, divorced, one can marry anyone, inlcuding former spouse. Married one cannot marry anyone else.
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The evil you face is the doubt planted by Satan. That is how the LBSer is killed off by the seeds of doubt.
I don't doubt evil. I see it plainly. There is no doubt in me whatsoever.
The Holocaust was not caused by GOD.
I never said that it was. From my seat, he just didn't step in.
In fact he gave us all opportunity to stand up and speak out. I know that if I was in Germany at that time, I would have been shot too because I would have spoken against the regime. I have never been afraid to speak out against what I felt was wrong. GOD works in many ways, yet he never promised paradise while on this planet.
Personally, I would not have said a thing; rather, I would have done something about it.
Doc, I am not telling you how to live your life. However, this is a forum about standing for your marriage. If you are keeping to your vows, you don't date or pursue new partners. If you want someone new, then divorce your wife and proceed. I won't condemn you or be angry with you at all. It is your choice and your power.
I recall exchanging vows with someone, but she changed her mind. I kept my word. I fulfilled my vows. Those vows are now gone and I do not recall making any other vows to that person. That said, I have no problem with other people who are similarly situated that see something honorable in "acting as if" they still have vows to fulfill. I see such people as good people and if it gets them through the day, that's all that really matters.
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recall exchanging vows with someone, but she changed her mind. I kept my word. I fulfilled my vows. Those vows are now gone and I do not recall making any other vows to that person. That said, I have no problem with other people who are similarly situated that see something honorable in "acting as if" they still have vows to fulfill. I see such people as good people and if it gets them through the day, that's all that really matters.
Well said Doc. There is no one roadmap for this MLC, though like any journey, there are "rules of the road" which will give a greater certainty of a safer outcome. That being the rules of honor, compassion, kindness (including to one's self). There are those here that adhere to the Christian concept of vows, while others view vows as a contract which has been broken. In my view, it really does not matter, so long as you feel comfortable with the path you've selected to follow and remain true to your core values, whatever belief system they are based upon. Do no harm to others in the process and you will no have reason for regret.
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Doc H writes: I see such people as good people and if it gets them through the day, that's all that really matters.
Proverbs 3:5-8 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
MLC in many ways is about faith. It is about letting them go and and finding there way back to you. I am not saying that all marriages will be salvaged.
I recall exchanging vows with someone, but she changed her mind. I kept my word. I fulfilled my vows.
Ecclesiastes 5:4 When you vow a vow to GOD, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
Your wife is committing sin and not honoring her vows will be through HIS judgment. Just because she has lost her way does not give you the right to break those same vows. You and I have the right to demand divorce under the grounds of sexual immorality. I am just saying not to seek other relationships with others and then claim you are standing.
Anne J. : After all I’ve spend the past 5.9 years legally married without a marriage or a husband.
Psalm 127:3-5 Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.
AnneJ, I have prayed on your situation and you have all rights to sign the divorce so that you can pursue a family. Your h has sinned in the eyes of GOD and has not fulfilled his duty towards you as written in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 "......Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." Also, "Titus 2:1-15: Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and steadfastness."
Your h has failed you and GOD. Your husband has committed sexual immorality, has shown no self-control and rejected you as a wife. You have the same right to divorce and seek a new marriage. That is your choice. I am all for marriage and I stand for my marriage. However, I have read posts of physical abuse and living in fear of their spouses. Do not remain or live in fear as that will not support your spouse or yourself.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love
and each and everyday that I live:
Joshua 1:9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the LORD your GOD is with you whereever you go.
Of course I cannot finish without my favorite. It is what keeps me standing and keeps me humble. I do not have the answers nor do I know the future. I live my life in service of GOD. I am nothing compared to HIS wisdom or Love. My career or my accomplishments are nothing. Instead, I am grateful for all that he has provided me including the challenges of MLC. My journey, fraught with pain and uncertainty has made me a better father,and a better man.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices within the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(((hugs)))
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Ready:
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
You gave me comfort and strength to my afflicted heart with this scripture. Deep gratitude.
~SG
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Thank you so much for your kindness and prayers, Ready. I think you know I’m not religious (spiritual, yes) and that I did not have a religious wedding. I’ve had a civil matrimony. No vows before God were exchanged. In fact no vows per se were exchanged. One promises to fulfil matrimonial duties (respect, faithfulness, loyalty assistance, support, cohabitation, joint decisions, etc.). If one of the parts breaks the marital obligations the other has the right to divorce.
My husband broke his promises I have no religious or moral obligation towards my husband. He, however, has to compensate me for breach of matrimonial obligations. Of course that there is no compensation for the break of trust and love rejection.
But, even if I’ve had a religious wedding, like you so kindly said, I would have the right to divorce him and remarry since he has rejected me as a wife and failed in is obligations has husband. I’ve wanted to divorce since April 2008, when I propose mediation to my husband. He rejected, he rejected all divorce proposals I’ve made. He runs to court and files against me, drags his own process and drags any legal request I made.
I don’t live in fear of him. I’m hundreds of miles away from him. He had become violent after BD on occasions and it was a very unpleasant situation.
I’m also pro-marriage but, sometimes, it is just not possible. Of course there are this ironies, the marriage is no longer viable but given the nation courts slowness and inefficiency one remains legally married.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices within the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
I very much agree with this. MLCers and OW/OM “love” is always boisterous, they always have to show it off to as many people as possible. I also believe love endures all things, even if, there are times when we have to keep our love inside and remove ourselves from the loved person.
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Proverbs 3:5-8 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Ecclesiastes 5:4 When you vow a vow to GOD, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
Psalm 127:3-5 Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love
and each and everyday that I live:
Joshua 1:9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the LORD your GOD is with you whereever you go.
Of course I cannot finish without my favorite. It is what keeps me standing and keeps me humble. I do not have the answers nor do I know the future. I live my life in service of GOD. I am nothing compared to HIS wisdom or Love. My career or my accomplishments are nothing. Instead, I am grateful for all that he has provided me including the challenges of MLC. My journey, fraught with pain and uncertainty has made me a better father,and a better man.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices within the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(((hugs)))
For some reason, the Bible verses bring me to tears. Perhaps it is because part of my soul realizes that I am not abiding by the law of the faith I freely choose, or perhaps it is because I realize that I may have to turn against my faith if I choose to go in a direction that is contradictory. I don't want to stand forever, or even any number of years, but yet again my faith dictates that W and I are joined by a bond that no Earthly person can break. It is truly a nightmare for those of us who seek to walk the righteous road as we see it, but also face a future we would never wish for. In many ways I envy those who do not see marriage as being "till death do us part."
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I recall exchanging vows with someone, but she changed her mind. I kept my word. I fulfilled my vows. Those vows are now gone and I do not recall making any other vows to that person. That said, I have no problem with other people who are similarly situated that see something honorable in "acting as if" they still have vows to fulfill. I see such people as good people and if it gets them through the day, that's all that really matters.
I'm not sure your vows included the phrase "so long as you hold up YOUR side of the bargain," but they may have....
Well said Doc. There is no one roadmap for this MLC, though like any journey, there are "rules of the road" which will give a greater certainty of a safer outcome. That being the rules of honor, compassion, kindness (including to one's self). There are those here that adhere to the Christian concept of vows, while others view vows as a contract which has been broken. In my view, it really does not matter, so long as you feel comfortable with the path you've selected to follow and remain true to your core values, whatever belief system they are based upon. Do no harm to others in the process and you will no have reason for regret.
Excellent analysis, buddy. If we can all look back and say we can be proud of how we handled ourselves then we have won a great victory.
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For some reason, the Bible verses bring me to tears.
You mentioned before that your w saw your tears as a weakness. Do not ever see your tears as a weaknees but as a window to your heart. It is your tears that show you as a good man and a good father.
You, your children and especially your wife will always be in my prayers.
(((((hugs)))))
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You, your children and especially your wife will always be in my prayers.
(((((hugs)))))
Same to you, my friend.
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For all those of us with daughters, or with sons who might marry someone else's daughter.
The role for women/men continues to be a tricky one ........... No easy answers here, but something I have pondered.
And those of us that have predominantly put our focus on our families/children - it has left us financially vulnerable.
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_bride_who_was_groomed_for_a_career/
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Cant’ find the article but a while ago I’ve read one on the same line. It said that only very rich people, who have other to do everything for them, and people who worked from home (and I doubt about this, except if you have some help) managed to successfully coordinate family and professional life.
And, in the case of rich people who have other to do everything for them, the children will miss having the parents around.
My cousins who live in the US have a roles reversal situation. My cousin stays at home and does some work from home, while his wife the main breadwinner. He has some help to look after the baby and big cleans but he has become a great dad.
The little one is very, very attached to her dad. The way you usually see children being attached to their mother.
So far it has been working for them but they are taking it slow, want to have a good life, but are not trying to have it all at a time.
They are planning to have two more children. It would be interesting to see if my cousin will remain being the stay at home daddy.
How 4 years old does not have mum and dad around but has 3 grandmothers (mum mother, dad mother, paternal grandfather wife) me and the rest of the family. She is always with some one from the family after kindergarten or when kindergarten is closed.
Has for us, the ones of the family 3rd generation, we always had our grandmothers around. And life was very different by then, much slower.
In some countries many women stay at home when they have children and eventually go back to work when they are old enough to university or work. Germany is one of those countries.
Those of us who have predominantly put our focus on our families/children were left financially vulnerable because it was no longer assumed and expected that a man should provide for his family. Otherwise it would have been a shame not to be able to provide for your wife and children.
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A friend forwarded me this article. Definitely sounds like MLC to me. What do you all think?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/monique-honaman/can-we-assume-its-tempora_b_1708129.html?utm_hp_ref=email_share
Sassy40
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Maybe it is about MLC. We don’t have much info about her husband and the two other men first mentioned. We have a little more about the last three.
Not all affairs are midlife crisis, not all midlife affairs are midlife crisis affairs. Also, the writer does not seem to know that the temporary insanity also happens to women.
Think temporary insanity is a very appropriated terminology for MLC.
The reason why kids roll their eyes and ignore parents is not because people have MLC, cheat on the wife and move in with OW. As for preaching one thing and doing another that has also been around for ages. It was very common in my grandmother and even mother generation. The difference was that, by then, society would not frown upon a man having mistresses and men were not that much into divorce. They did not need it. The wife would be at home, he could be with the mistress whenever he chooses to.
Kids ignore parents because parents stopped being parents and turned into their kids mates and “older” siblings. Parents stop saying “no” to kids and start allowing kids to walk away with murder.
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It certainly sounds like MLC, I'm glad she mentioned that this article happens to be about men. We shouldn't forget that women cause just as much destruction. Male LBSers are under-represented on this board, but MLC women are just as common.
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I don't think there is enough information to determine if she is talking about cases of MLC. Some may be, but MLC really isn't very common. Sometimes affairs are just affairs and can make people act temporarily insane also. Just my .02.
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This article by ELAINE BRINKLEY (SMITH) of Missouri Western State University does not mention MLC but addresses spousal abandonment and discusses many of the themes we explore here, including both male and female abandonment.
It also mentions a book, now out of print, called "Sudden Endings," by Madeline Bennett, about "wife rejection syndrome." Bennett (pseudonym) was an LBS who wanted to understand what happened to her H. I read it. It was helpful in elucidating why men abandon their wives (and confirms what we learn here) but it was not encouraging of reconciliation (although it does acknowledge R). The article includes the results of a survey Bennett conducted in the 1980s, pre-internet. I have copied here the main part of the article and not the survey.
Here's the link to the full piece, including Bennett's survey: http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/61.php
The Dynamics of Marital Disintegration
The ceremony of marriage involves a symbolic joining of two becoming one. This implies that over the years of the relationship each partner`s identity comes to include the other`s. This identity shift is a normal aspect of marriage; a person`s \"I\" includes an identification of being part of a couple. In a long term relationship, spouses` lives become interwoven and divorce can leave a major gap in a person`s sense of \"I,\" for whether the relationship is \"good\" or \"bad,\" the identity shift implies no longer seeing the spouse as just a love object but includes the spouse as part of one`s own identity (Schell, 1990).
Spanier and Thompson (1983) find that individuals dealing with spouse initiated separation report greater distress levels. Timing also plays a role; separations without much forewarning are significantly more disturbing (Spanier & Casto, 1979). Schell (1994) suggests that human beings inhabit a literal and symbolic reality and so a divorce can symbolize a literal death that must be grieved. Stevens and Gardner (1994, p. 121) cite the work of Cassidy in saying that
`Next to the death of a loved one, a divorce is the most severe trauma an adult can experience. Every emotional reaction is possible: anger, despair, guilt, depression, anxiety, fear, loneliness, euphoria.`
It is proposed that abandoned spouses go through clinically much of the same processes as widows whose spouses have died (Schell, 1994). Physical and mental symptoms occur such as preoccupation with the lost person, guilt, restlessness, hypervigilance and difficulty sleeping (Myers, 1989).
Further, the abandonee faces bereavement without the benefit of normal community support, without the custom of rituals, and often without an internal awareness that grieving will take place. This lack of awareness can lead to denial and, therefore, prolong the grief. Shell (1994) quotes on abandoned woman as saying, \"I wish he had actually died -- it would be much easier.\" A literal death would have led to grief but much less the feeling of rejection, and would have provided a context in which social support would have occurred. It would have included normal aspects of the grieving process that help move along the bereavement process -- a gathering of the families, the funeral and burial, the signing of legal forms, the sorting of possessions and the reading of wills. Symbolic death causes the rejected to face legal details that magnify the struggle of rejection. Schell (1994) provides an outline of the consequences of having lost a spouse through his or her decision to leave.
Initially it brings about shock and disbelief. Friends tend to provide support briefly for grief and longer for the anger that follows. Abandonees are then encouraged to move on in life. It is often not acknowledged that a death, albeit a symbolic death has occurred, not even by the abandonee. Schell proposes that this lack of acknowledgement may be symptomatic of \"our individual resistance to face the many deaths that are inherent in a rapidly changing culture.\"
Increasingly, the best psychological theories of the marital satisfaction and divorce distress phenomena make use of the attachment theory of Bowlby. Marriage provides an opportunity to reestablish attachment relationships that were experienced in early childhood (Stevens & Gardner, 1994). Bowlby (1969) defines attachment as \"the propensity of human beings to make strong affectional bonds to particular others.\" His theory proposes that attachments between parent and child determine the characteristic ways in which a person`s attachments are organized in adult life (Bowlby, 1980). Intense emotions arise during the formation, the maintenance, the disruption, and the renewal of attachment relationships. Loss of attachment causes sorrow and often is a phase of sorrow. Bowlby`s attachment theory, as considered by Kitson(1982), provides an explanation for not only grief over loss through death, but through separation and divorce too, just as Schell (1990) stresses. Attachment is always present in dissolving marriages. Greater feelings of attachment tend to exist the more recent the separation, and when one spouse asks for the separation. Attachment is seen as the primary cause of distress in divorce (Myers, 1989). It is a very powerful force, continuing even after the relationship has ended or is no longer rewarding (Kitson, 1982).
Bowlby (1980) presents four phases of mourning in the loss of a spouse -- 1) Numbing, 2) Yearning and Searching, 3) Disorganization and Despair, and 4) Phase of Greater or Lesser Disorganization and Despair. The Phase of Numbing lasts from a few hours to about a week and is marked by being stunned and unable to accept the news. The bereaved may carry on with normal life automatically but will feel tense and apprehensive; this calm is often broken by an outburst of emotion. Some report attacks of panic and say they find refuge with friends. Others may become very angry.
The Phase of Yearning and Searching for the lost figure occurs when reality sets in, and extreme distress, sobbing, restlessness, and preoccupation of thoughts of the lost are present. There is tendency to think that the lost will return and vivid dreams of the lost are common. Anger is also very common. The Phase of Disorganization and Despair requires the bereaved to achieve what Bowlby calls reorganization or a redefining of self. The bereaved must recognize the need of filling unaccustomed roles and acquiring new skills. If the bereaved can achieve these new roles, more confidence and sense of independence will result, they will be able to see a future for themselves (Bowlby, 1980).
Bowlby`s idea of reorganization of the bereaved having to redefine their identity brings to the mind Erikson`s theory of identity which also greatly relates to the institution of marriage and its disintegration. Erikson`s psychosocial modality of identity is to be oneself and to be able to share being oneself with others (Erikson, 1959). The achievement of identity, therefore, must come before the achievement of intimacy, and intimacy with another is a sharing of one`s identity. Intimacy as Erikson defines it is to lose and find one`s self in another (Erikson, 1959). Intimacy with another human being, therefore, has a great impact on a person`s identity. When this intimacy or attachment is severed, identity is enormously affected, just as Bowlby demonstrates through his attachment theory and idea of the need to reorganize.
Erikson`s counterpart to intimacy is distantiation, the readiness to repudiate, to ignore or to destroy those forces or people whose essence seems dangerous (Erikson, 1959). A spouse who abandons resembles this distantiation. Spousal abandonment happens to both men and women and affects men and women in different ways. The current literature takes a very segregated approach in exploring the phenomena of spousal abandonment for each of the sexes.
Amanat and Wiebmer (1985) employ the developmental theory of Erikson to explain spousal abandonment of women. They consider Erikson`s theory to be male oriented, saying that his eight stages of the life cycle (Trust vs. Mistrust, Autonomy vs. Shame and Doubt, Initiative vs. Guilt, Industry vs. Inferiority, Identity vs. Diffusion, Intimacy vs. Isolation, Generativity vs. Stagnation, and Integrity vs. Despair) are colored by the concept of autonomy, it being more socially encouraged and desirable in males. Author of the article, \"Women`s Difficult Times and the Rewriting of the Life Story,\" Helson (1992) agrees with this notion and notes the observation of feminist critics in their comparing of literature that heroic stories of men most often begin in the youth stages while stories of female heroines are told as though the woman`s life, her heroism, begins upon marriage.
In order to achieve identity and then intimacy, a person must first relinquish attachment needs of childhood and become more autonomous. Further, the stages of generativity and integrity are heavily intertwined with work achievements and work to establish identity in the world. A person`s work achievements and independent identity in the world do not coincide with furthering attachment and bonding with another person (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985). Amanat and Wiebmer present the notion that Erikson presents the female identity development as including attraction to and dependence on a male. A female`s identity has much to do with intimacy, therefore, her identity is \"contaminated by bonding needs\" (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
The authors also find Mahler`s theory of individuation as a source of explaining spousal abandonment of women. Mahler`s theory includes several stages (in the first three years of life) necessary to accomplish \"object constancy.\" The autistic presymbiotic stage is marked by isolation, self-stimulation, and attraction to human contact. Attachment, bonding, dependence, clinging, and imitative thinking are present in the symbiotic stage. The third stage necessary to achieve object constancy is separation individuation. It involves rapproachment, anxiety, ambivalence, fears of engulfment-abandonment, and mutative thinking (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
Mahler and Erikson`s theories both depict a male who is detached, distant, and individuated. But, it is assumed that during the intimacy stage the male does \"demonstrate adequate bonding capacity.\" So, since women`s achievement of individuation is inferior to men`s, they tend to play a \"dependent-passive, masochistic role with a heavy emphasis on self-depreciation.\" For women there is a natural fusion between identity and intimacy. This fusion between often leads to oppression and trauma (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
Amanat and Wiebmer have defined what they call Women`s Integrity Trauma Syndrome (WITS) as \"only one of the manifestations of this total picture.\" For, they relate, since a woman`s \"natural\" relationship style tends to be symbiotic, when feeling inferior she often enters into a dyadic, authoritarian relationship. Such a relationship would be one of dominance, submission, and complementarity. It would likely include a Type A (dominating, controlling, oppressive) male, and a Type B (passive, dependent, masochistic) female. The woman would receive her sense of identity or validation and integrity by being part of this relationship. She would idealize her husband, be socioeconomically dependent, experience guilt and shame, and display a false sense of romance. Her ultimate fear, and ultimate devastation, when and if it occurred, would be abandonment (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
Such a woman`s dependence would exploit her husband, making her feel a sense of control. The dominant, demanding male feeling superior, would encourage his wife`s dependence. His need to be idealized would promote feelings of guilt and helplessness in his spouse. He would usually be committed to a long term relationship even when he feels exploited and persecuted (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
In their work with twenty-two middle-aged women whose husbands abandoned them, Amanat and Wiebmer (1985) found the women to be lodged firmly in the development needs and authoritarian dyads. The women experienced a sense of loss and annihilation, a loss of a sense of purpose, an intense self-blaming, a suicidal ideation, and physical symptoms. Their symptoms were viewed as more resembling \"self-threatening traumas than typical grief reactions of denial, anger, bargaining and acceptance.\" The authors describe three phases of the Women`s Integrity Trauma Syndrome.
The initial phase or alarm phase, like in post-traumatic stress disorder syndromes, lasts several days to weeks. It characterized by feelings of shattering annihilation, hyperemotionalism, severe guilt, depression, shame, worthlessness, humiliation, helplessness, bitterness, and multiple fears. The woman may also experience a survival challenge, blocking of thoughts, suicide ideation, somatic complaints, a sense of vulnerability, and a profound sense of nothingness (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
Phase two of WITS is the reorganization phase. This phase is marked by a prevalence of symbiotic clinging and attachment. Common responses include alcohol or drug use, regressive behaviors, nightmares, and hypochondriasis. The last phase of WITS is the adaptation phase and Amanat and Wiebmer (1985) observe it to be almost impossible to achieve because of such complicating factors as a \"concreteness of formal thinking,\" a lack of social support, or limitation of interests. It is also noted that a failure to make progress in this adaptation can lead to psychotic reactions (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
he authors propose some interesting implications for the therapy of WITS victims. They report finding it necessary to accept clients` sense of nothingness because when they tried to \"talk them out of it,\" the women`s feelings of annihilation increased. When the women felt that their feelings of nonexistence were accepted, they were more trusting of the therapist and their own perceptions (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
The therapists then could allow the women to self-blame. The therapists found that becoming \"somewhat of a `replacement` for their lost dyadic halves\" helped the women to \"develop trusting alliance and gradually work them out of their misery\" (Amanat & Wiebmer, 1985).
Madeline Bennett, author of the book Sudden Endings, and herself a victim of what she labels Wife Rejection Syndrome, also offers some insight on the phenomena of female spousal abandonment. Bennett`s work, although biased, provides a thorough psychoanalytical explanation of sudden rejections in marriages, especially of wife rejection for she feels that it is more common. Bennett describes Wife Rejection Syndrome as the husband`s defense mechanism against overwhelming feelings of anger, shame and guilt, resulting in his abandonment of his wife.
The author sees her informal solicitation of twenty-five wife rejection cases as evidence for its commonality. She used three sets of questions to separate the cases of abandonment to be classified as wife rejection syndrome. The cases she evaluated included the wife`s account of her husband`s integrity, the wife`s expectations for marital longevity and the wife`s report of her magnitude of shock. These criteria were an attempt to screen out fragile marriages, especially marital breakdown due to drug or alcohol abuse (Bennett, 1991).
Many commonalities were found in these interviews. The rejected women reported their husbands to have been well-regarded in the community, to have left hastily without remorse, to have expressed elation at their decision, and to have followed up with acts of persecution, either, or both financially and emotionally. Much of the motivation for researching and writing of wife rejection syndrome for Bennett came after she sought therapy and found no satisfactory treatment or information. She says that the therapists were pessimistic and unwilling to counsel her and her husband together. They suggested that she stay away from her husband and seek individual therapy. Bennett, reports, however, that she found psychoanalytical therapists as more willing to discuss the syndrome and treat the family as a whole (Bennett, 1991).
Another characteristic Bennett says that she observed of therapists of \"other persuasions\" was that they appeared to blame the wife. She reports that many of the therapists that she interviewed in seeking therapy thought that \"the seeds of wife rejection germinate over a long period of time,\" that an observant wife could not \"be blind to such deterioration.\" Bennett, as a victim, disagrees. She describes the wives` \"blindspot\" as \"innocence about the reversibility of good and bad\" (Bennett. 1991).
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Thanks for posting this, very interesting :)
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Thank you. Great article.
I, especially, would like to see more acknowledgement and understanding / education about the grief process applying to divorce. This would be helpful in th workplace where there is a distinct lack of understanding of what and abandoned spouse is going through and what type of support they may need.
Sp
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Thanks so much for posting this and yes, it seems to be dead on in its perception of what happens in the sudden abandonment.
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Very interesting article. Thank you for taking the time to post it. I fit the bill to a T.
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EXCELLENT Article...incredibly insightful...thnx
BUGS
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Just saw this on my internet news today.
Not much info about the research yet but when more is published, I'll post it.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/latest/a/-/latest/15352840/world-first-study-tests-diet-depression-link/
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http://www.youbeauty.com/relationships/swinging-happens-2?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=OutBrain%2BCPC&utm_term=Swinging-Happens
Just happened to come across this today after having a conversation yesterday with a couple ladies during a session. This is a topic I researched back in grad school (didn't participate, but was considering becoming a sex therapist) and it seems to be considered a "balance" for some people who want to stay married but crave the "excitement you haven't felt since you were 17 and didn't know how the night was going to end." Feeling generally crappy right now and the site appears to be pretty slow today, so I figured I would pose the question out there as to whether or not MLC might somehow be tied into this in that people in good marriage suddenly crave something that being married means giving up for most people. Thoughts, opinions or statements of disgust welcome.
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Ok, I know a little about the subject because I once had an assignment that required some research in this field and others concerned with sexuality, marriage and nightlife. It has never cross my mind it is linked to MLC but it is a fact that most people into it seem to be MLC couples who are after some sort of illusion. That, some how, want to capture to the “lost spark”.
There are younger people who do couples crossing but normally they will do it in holidays or after party context, not into a swingers club or community. In those you find mostly unattractive middle age men and their wives. It is a gloomy, sad, unhappy world and the last place on earth where I would go for spark a marriage up but people seem to think it will bring some novelty. The only thing it brings is an addiction to a high and, in many cases, the embarrassment of one of the couple members, normally the woman, who, afraid of losing her husband had said yes and went along.
It is even worse than my husband's clubbing world, Thundarr. I doubt anyone in the swingers scene is happy.
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Forgot to say, that is my country’s reality but, somehow, I think it is like MLC, it does not make much difference if you are in Portugal or in the US.
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Looking forward to seeing more! I definitely think there's a link (especially as there are more hormones pumped into meats and harmful preservatives that we are just now seeing the fallout from). A pivotal part of my recovery from MLC has been a very strict supplement regimen that has helped me increase serotonin, as well as a general improvement in the quality of my diet. Thanks for posting this!
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Thanks for posting, SP.
Some foods can help but I’m more in line with this: “However, Associate Professor Jaka says it is unlikely a change of diet would form the primary treatment of depression.”
Husband has a great diet when he was home and it did not prevent the depression or the MLC. Medicines are needed to many depressions. Of course a balanced diet can help and, after the levels are balanced, will be important.
And yes, red meat is important. Especially during depression and/or MLC.
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AnneJ,
I hadn't heard red meat is important. I love eating red meat but don't all that often because of the cost vs chicken.
Do you have some more knowledge on this?
I think this research is helpful not just to the MLCers but to LBSers who find themselves in depression becuase of what has happened. Particularly the years or months before BD when you have no idea why there is all the crazy making.
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It would seem it's completely separate from MLC.
First, these couples are agreeing to do this lifestyle, and as you referenced wish to stay married. Other than perhaps Clinging Boomerangs, the desire to remain married does not describe someone in MLC.
Also, two of the key symptoms of someone in MLC are Projection toward the spouse and the abandonment of the spouse. The referenced lifestyle is something that is apparently mutually agreed upon......nothing about MLC is mutually agreed upon.
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SP, below are some reasons why red meat is important. Of course we don’t have to eat it all the time. If we can only do it once a week, that is fine. Also, some people cannot, for health reason, eat red meat or have to do it in very small quantities. Above all a diet should be balance and adapted to each person/situation. The research is excellent and a good diet is crucial for a LBS.
Red Meat and Health
Lean red meats, including beef, pork and lamb, can play an important part in a healthy balanced diet as they have a high nutrient density. This means that they contain a wide variety of nutrients in a relatively small amount of food. Meat is a major source of protein. It also contributes minerals and trace elements to the diet, particularly iron and zinc. It is an important source of B vitamins, including B12, which is not found naturally in foods of plant origin.
PROTEIN
Meat is a major source of protein which helps to improve satiety and fills you up for longer. This makes protein-rich foods excellent for helping to control our weight so that we don’t become overweight or obese.
IRON
Iron is a vital mineral for red blood cell formation. A deficiency of iron in the diet is the most common dietary cause of anaemia. Certain groups of the population are at particular risk because of poor iron intakes. Currently a quarter of females aged 19-64 in the UK have iron intakes below the minimum amount to stay healthy.
The type of iron found in red meat (haem iron) is more easily absorbed and used by the body than the iron in plant foods such as pulses, nuts, seeds and leafy green vegetables (non-haem iron).
ZINC
Zinc is important for the healthy functioning of the immune system, growth, wound healing and fertility. Red meat is a good source of readily absorbable zinc. We get about 30% of our dietary intake of zinc from red meat and meat products.
OTHER MINERALS
Red meat also provides other minerals such as potassium and selenium. Selenium is an important antioxidant, which has been linked to reducing the risk of heart disease and certain cancers.
VITAMINS
Red meat is a significant source of a number of B vitamins: thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, B6 and B12 - a vitamin which is not found naturally in foods of plant origin and is important for healthy red blood cells, growth and the production of energy. It has also recently been found to make an important contribution to vitamin D intakes. Vitamin D works with calcium and phosphorous to build strong bones and teeth.
FAT
The fat content of red meat has been considerably reduced over the last few decades and the amount of fat in red meat is actually much lower than most people think.
These reductions have been achieved by breeding techniques on the farm and new butchery techniques, which trim off most of the fat.
Fully trimmed lean raw beef typically contains only 5% fat, fully trimmed lean raw pork only 4% fat and fully trimmed lean raw lamb only 8% fat. This compares well with a food such as cheddar cheese which contains an average of 34% fat.
About half of the fat found in red meat is in the unsaturated form that is believed to be healthier. Surveys show that meat is a major contributor of mono-unsaturated fat in the diet. Choosing lean cuts of meat and trimming off any visible fat helps to reduce the saturated fat content further.
OMEGA-3 FATS
Red meat contains small amounts of omega-3 fats, which help to keep the heart healthy. With the exception of oil-rich fish, few foods contain good amounts of omega-3s. This makes the small amounts in red meat an important source, especially for people who eat little or no oily fish.
SALT
Fresh red meat is naturally low in salt.
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The only connection to MLC that I could see is if the MLCer suddenly developed an interest in something like this, when he or she had never had it before..... and then might complain that the spouse was boring or didn't give them what they wanted or something because they were horrified.
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The only connection to MLC that I could see is if the MLCer suddenly developed an interest in something like this, when he or she had never had it before..... and then might complain that the spouse was boring or didn't give them what they wanted or something because they were horrified.
My W brought up this lifestyle after BD #1. I knew better than to fall for that.
Her previous marriage was an "open marriage". I told her in the beginning that I wasn't interested in that lifestyle and us being together would never work because of that. She said "I was doing that to look for the right guy". And for 8 years she proved it.
So was she interested in that lifestyle previously? Possibly. She never mentioned it again until after BD #1. Her reasons were to spice up our sex life, to feel that newness/excitement again.
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I think there are two ways to approach this.
The first one is if you were always into this type of thing pre MLC then great, not my bag but I'm pretty liberal.
But for me personally, porn, swinging, etc only entered my H's world post MLC journey. We'd had some exposure to porn as young people, but I realise after the death of his H and we weren't really communicating on an intimate level emotionally or physically, I think he used porn as a release, a way to get a rush, and to actually feel something. Plus after so long together we'd got stuck in a rut.
So I think it can be used as a self medicating thing. I believe consenting adults are free to do what they want, but I would want a relationship where you created the excitement together, and without resorting to such drastic measures. Swinging must mean you are either very secure, very strong minded or love the drama created by sexual jealousy. It doesn't interest me at all except on an intellectual level to understand my H's MLC.
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Thanks AnneJ,
Just cooked up a big pot (Ziggee style) of Indian Beef curry. Enought for two meals for the kids and I. I certainly hope it helps to improve my emotional wellbeing at the moment :) :) :)
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Personally, and this is a stance that has brought a firestorm in the past here, I understand how porn can be used to spice up a lagging marital sex life. From time to time we all need the fantasy of danger and daring, and sexualizing that only bumps it up several notches. During the first 20 years of our relationship W and I would rent a couple movies here and there (meaning every few months at first then probably every 5 years or so as we got older) when the kids weren't here just to break up the monotony. Mose sex therapists agree this isn't harmful as you both know it's not real and most mainstream movies today have some sort of titillating factor to them, especially R-rated ones. Humans need fantasy and sometimes it gets old fantasizing about each other. In the months pre-BD, W suddenly became the initiator of the porn movies for the first time and started watching videos on the internet before and eventually during the time we were ML. Her sex drive was through the roof and the fact that I had taken a sex therapy course a few months before had me thinking she was just getting more comfortable with her body, not suspecting what was really going on. I even asked her at one point if she wanted to go to one of the secret swinger clubs I had learned about to just people-watch and she said she had no interest. As I look back now I'm disgusted by everything that was going on and how I was so foolish to think we were entering a golden phase of our relationship. I was naive and stupid enough to think that since we had gone through 20+ years of being happy together that we were a part of each other and inseparable. How terrible to have 20/20 hindsight now that this period was the doom of my marriage.
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Oh Thundaar...I think that you may find for so many other reasons that pornography is very much against Christ's idea of the sanctity of marriage. And I do think that asking your wife to go to a secret swinger club does not show a healthy sexual relationship.
Sex is supposed to be between two people, IMHO you are asking for trouble when you wish to involve others either by pornography or swinging into that relationship.
There is lots more I could say on this topic.....on a site that encourages standing for your marriage, I find it disturbing what you are suggesting.
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Thundarr,
No issues or storm re porn from me, I agree a little bit of titilation does spice things up. Also if porn is shared then it doesn't become something "shameful" or problematic. My H suddenly thought I'd got issues about it but he never bothered to discuss it with me. It was something very much for HIM. Still now I am well aware I have NO clue of the extent of it all.
My other issues with porn is that the mainstream stuff is very much orientated to men. I know porn is visual so thus appeals to men more, but I can't believe there can't be a way to produce a more "sensual" type of experience for want of a better word.
I have thought about this deeply, my family openly discussed things even if a bit embarrassing. My H's family NEVER talked about the birds and the bees with him, and merely gave his sister a book! They are deeply uncomfortable if my nieces and nephews strip off naked which saddens me, as I think kids shouldn't be made to feel shame about their bodies.
I don't think this caused his MLC I am sure it's a symptom. However his obsession with porn meant I couldn't compete with the hard bodied 20 year olds he was viewing and "involved" with. I became, and still am, repulsive to him. Sad, because I know about myself and my body and my beliefs, but he doesn't! :'(
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Oh Thundaar...I think that you may find for so many other reasons that pornography is very much against Christ's idea of the sanctity of marriage. And I do think that asking your wife to go to a secret swinger club does not show a healthy sexual relationship.
Sex is supposed to be between two people, IMHO you are asking for trouble when you wish to involve others either by pornography or swinging into that relationship.
There is lots more I could say on this topic.....on a site that encourages standing for your marriage, I find it disturbing what you are suggesting.
I had no intention of ever participating, and honestly couldn't stomach the thought of either of us doing that, but we were encouraged to by our instructor just as a case study to see how different some people view sexuality and relationships. I have clients who do believe in the lifestyle and as a therapist I have to remain non-judgmental. I could NEVER handle the thought of my W with another man if we were actively married, and even now the thought hurts me to the core. I've seen a lot of things in my day, done quite a few, but swinging would never be for me. I still say porn, like role-playing and fetishism, can be part of a normal healthy relationship between married people. Secular research has shown it, but unsurprisingly Christian therapists always advise against it. And that can go into a debate between the fact that there are CHRISTIAN therapist and Christian THERAPISTS, but that's another topic.
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Thundarr,
In reference to the title of this thread - I don't see any connection to MLC in this article or in partner swapping - at all.
MLC is about an emotional connection. The MLCer is looking for something (someone) to make him/her happy. The MLCer has not yet realized that happiness comes from within - not from an outside source.
That is why the MLC affair usually begins as an EA - as the MLCer becomes emotionally connected to the alienator or alienators.
What is described in the article is emotion-free sex with someone else - outside the marriage. No. Not related to MLC at all.
As far as whether or not porn can bring life back to a sexless marriage - I think that is a subject for another website.
I see sex as a personal, emotional connection between two people - where love and commitment exists. But, that is how I see it. Should others see it in a different way - that is their perogative.
I don't see how a discussion regarding the merits of porn in is in line with any of the things we are trying to accomplish with this site - A site dedicated to understanding MLC, Standing for our marriage (or ourselves), letting go, and healing ourselves.
JMHO.
limitless
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I don't think it's MLC related, either. I think a healthy discussion of sexuality/morality issues as they pertain to MLC is good, as many of us are dealing with those things. Some of it borders on being kind of triggery, though, too.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-krauss-whitbourne/midlife-crisis-myth_b_2371951.html
I'm not sure which studies Dr. Whitbourne is citing, but some of this holds up in terms of this being a serious form of depression and striking at different ages than in the 40s and 50s. It's interesting to me that she states this is treatable and encourages those who think they are having one to seek help. But....I think she overlooks the fact that those who are having one think they're fine and it is those around them who see differently. Makes me wonder if using interventions as a strategy might be plausible.
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There are depressions, and identity crisis that do not happen at midlife. My younger sister is 29, will be 30 in some months, and is having what we call a midlife crisis.
In the article there is this: “A large-scale survey of 3,000 midlife adults in the 1990s conducted by Cornell sociologist Elaine Wethington showed that the majority of midlife adults did not report that they experienced a crisis. The twist on this study was that of the small percentage who said they did have a "midlife crisis," the age of this "midlife" event ranged from as young as 30 to as old as 65.”
It matches what we here on the board have seen. I would say that is still MLC, some people have it a little earlier and others a little later. How many people who have a MLC are going to say they had one? Most don’t even know what happened to them… But I think it is correct, most adults would have a transition, not a crisis.
She does overlook the fact that those having one thing they are fine. An intervention, Thundarr? Good luck with that. Don’t’ think it would work. Not when they are already in full crisis mode. Before, if they felt unwell and took some meds the whole thing could be mitigated.
Of course if we could catch an MLCer in Replay and made them have some meds it may make a difference but who is going to be able to do it? …
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Seems to be just another mainstream article about MLC. One of the things RCR addresses that these mainstream articles seemingly fail to is one word.
Denial
The author starts the last paragraph this way........"If you feel convinced that you're having a midlife crisis......."
Here's how I would finish the sentence. "........then you are probably not having a midlife crisis"
In the article the data collection seems to be through self-reporting, which RCR also addresses.
RCR addresses a few of these points in the MLC Overview article
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview.html
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Exactly, all these mainstream articles miss, or don't talk about, the denial part.
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Funny. I was looking at mainstream articles about MLC yesterday too.
The ones I read were way off also. A crisis is a crisis, a transition is a transition.
Most still think only men go through a MLC also. Very few understand the connection
of childhood and repressed emotions to the crisis.
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Have been reading site for a long time but just started posting. I cannot believe that this lady can write such nonsense and get paid for it!
My H is textbook MLC - sent to school at 8, absent parents. Recently, unwilling grandfather, became ill, I had cancer. H 66, Me 65 Alienator 38. BD Valentine's Day 2012. Moved back to UK with OW in September. Bought three sports cars, frequents men of 44-55. Others are boring. Has holidayed non-stop ever since and let his business sink. Monster behaviour interspersed with frenetic
activity.
Perhaps, as she says, it is just depression but I don't think so.
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Just quick note, if that's your real name you should change it for the forum.
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MLC is full of depression, covert and overt. Read the articles on the main site. Here is the one with Depression overview http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_depression.html
The little you've said about husabnd is MLC textebook.
Please be so kind to change your name. Real names are not allowed nor you can sign your posts with it.
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Susan Krauss Whitbourne initially wrote about it on her Psychology Today blog: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201207/the-top-10-myths-about-the-midlife-crisis (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201207/the-top-10-myths-about-the-midlife-crisis)
Had I seen that post I might have included it in my paper showing how academics are twisting the facts. For instance, Whitbourne says that the number reporting they had an MLC was small, but fails to give that percentage. For the record, for men it was 25.4% and 26.3% for women. Small is truly relative. I mean, seriously, how many of you think that 26% is small as an MLC rate?
Her argument about the age span is valid. I've looked at the research but have not seen the specific numbers. How many of those were outliers and what was the percentage of those not outlying? I hope researchers aren't abusing it and trying to dismiss the reportings because one idiot out of 3000 said they had an MLC at age 17 and another out of the 3000 said they had one at 72. (I don't recall the high end of the age range, but the low was something like 17 or 18, even though Whitbourne implied it was 30.
I personally think (and hope) 26% is WAY high, but then self-reporting lacks credibility to me anyway.
I have written EXTENSIVELY on this in my academic paper I put upon the homepage last December.
It is long and it is academic, but I'd love to hear what people think. Here's the link: http://bit.ly/187BK2Z (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/support-files/empirical_midlife_studies_and_the_backlash_against_midlife_crisis.pdf)
Part of me wants to post a comment to Whitbourne's blog--and I may--but the paper I wrote is the comment--it says everything I want to say and more, so I may just post a small bit with a link. We'll see.
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It is long and it is academic
I read it, my first take is the same as yours.
I am just wondering if the message gets lost in here,
Maybe if you broke it up into a few papers it might be better, and then cited each paper with in the main body.
Of course I am not sure who your audience is for this paper.
I already believe most of what is written, or is it for the person that does not believe in MLC?
There is a ton of information in there, and overall I think you make your point.
Sorry to be so critical, that was not really my intention.
The age range I find interesting.
Being that I am already past the age range and have not had an MLC that I know of.
Although I will admit to being an LBS which might be my crisis of the century.
The only other thing that I noticed is that you did not use Gail Sheedy as a citiation at all, that could help with the different transitions that occur each decade.
Thanks for sharing this paper.
I will try to re-read it again in the future and see if I can add anything else.
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I'll read it later when I have time. I've certainly read my share of academic papers in my time so I'm looking forward to it. Anything to help make sense of this insanity is greatly appreciated.
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I read it, my first take is the same as yours.
I am just wondering if the message gets lost in here,
Maybe if you broke it up into a few papers it might be better, and then cited each paper with in the main body.
Of course I am not sure who your audience is for this paper.
I already believe most of what is written, or is it for the person that does not believe in MLC?
There is a ton of information in there, and overall I think you make your point.
Sorry to be so critical, that was not really my intention.
Oh, I don't find you critical, just honest. I'd love for academics and others to read it, but I don't know how to get them as an audience and more importantly for them to see me as credible.
Really, I just wanted to write something more academic. I found this to be a good topic because I'd been wanting to say so much about this and the data and research was from academic sources rather than professionals writing for the general public, so it was natural that my response be academic as well. I put it on the home page because I want it public somewhere, but I really do not see LBSs as the audience other than to confirm what you already think and believe.
So a lot of my work may be at a high reading level ex. The Shadow series. But it was not about data and research--James Hollis and Robert Johnson were two of my main influences, so professionals writing for the public. Presenting data is different. The Shadow is subjective and data objective.
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RCR,
Thank you for writing an academic paper on the topic and I plan to read it this evening. I had A LOT of issues with the Huffngton Post article, especially since someone in MLC will never or in rare instances admit that they have MLC or need help. In fact from what I have learned in my short time on this forum, if they admit to having MLC then they most certainly aren't in MLC. My H is textbook MLC and is full blown infatuation with the OW at the moment. He would never admit to being in MLC and he would probably tell me in not so nice language that I am the one who is two tons of crazy. As a newbie, we need facts and we need the academic proof behind it. In the early stages, it is easy to want to believe everything that you read. However, this site and forum have given me the most information and support of anything that I have found. It is not based on warm and feely stuff, but facts and that is what is needed early in the crisis. This is just my opinion though. Thanks again for sharing the link to your research.
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If you ask me 25.4% and 26.3% is way high. Both are over 1/4 and that is a lot. If we consider many people do not have clue thay had a MLC the number may be higher.
Or it may not. I've noticed that people who've had what we call a MLT say they had a MLC, so it would depend of the criteria one is using.
As for the paper. I've read it when you made it available. From my view you do not have MLC as a disease or disorder (please forgive if I'm wrong) and that may make if hard to pass the study for academics. Oat least to some academics.
What is MLC? A circunstance that, sometimes, hits people in midlife?... That is more or less what I get from the paper.
"Presenting data is different. The Shadow is subjective and data objective."
True but the Shadow comes from Jung studies and Jung was an academic. Again, I think it will depend to who will the paper reach. Also, teen anger has a cause, or several. It is cause by hormonal and biochemical factors.
Same for MLCers, of course. MLC is more than just a psycological/develpmental crisis. And it could be said that many, if not all, psycological problems have hormonal or biochemical factors.
Jung was working on what was visible, he was not doing studies on the hormones, brain and biological factors and how they relate to MLC.
You know I tend more to the neuro/biological factors than to the emotional/psycological/development ones.
To answer the question in your paper here are my views:
"1. MLC is or is not universal? - It is not universal. Not everyone has MLC.
2. MLC is or is not a disease or psychiatric syndrome? - It a psychiatric disease or syndrome (bipolar and depression are not universal but they are psychiatric diseases. MLC has a big neurological component, just like all psyciatric disorders/syndromes)
3. MLC is or is not real something experienced by some people? - MLC is real and experienced by some people.
There is one thing that needs to be said, and that here we often forget, MLC is experienced by single people.
For me MLC takes 3/3.5 years to 7/7.5 years for men and 3/4.5 years for women. average, of course.
It would made not difference if society would not accept divorce. Except that the MLCer may end up in jail or dead (by suicide or judicial sentence). The crisis would not stop, or be different, just because divorce was not an option.
"Depression, confusion and choosing actions such as infidelity or to blame others and to avoid or deny are internal and thus symptoms of MLC; they are not causes." ... uhhh... wiithout depression there is no MLC. Depression is not a symptom. The other may be symptoms of the depression/crisis but depression is one of the causes.
It does not make a difference if we see MLC as a development phase, a lack of development in the past, unresolved childhood issues, neurochemical, hormonal or other (or all/several of those) depression is always required.
I have never knew an MLCer, or former MLCer, that was not depressed. Ok, it could be argued that the depression come because of other things but I think it is more the other way round. The other things come because there is depression.
Sorry if I'm being to critical.
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4682842/North-Korean-prisoner-born-in-concentration-camp-escapes.html
News
North Korean prisoner born in concentration camp escapes after 23 years
Shin Dong-hyuk escaped from North Korean concentration camp
By FRAN WETZEL
Published: 05th December 2012
26
A NORTH Korean prisoner who was born in a concentration camp has escaped after 23 years.
Shin Dong-hyuk grew up in Camp 14, a brutal political prison believed to exist in the communist state.
He is thought to be the only person to be born and raised in the jail who has ever managed to flee and survive.
Now 30, he tells US TV reporter Anderson Cooper about the camp where 15,000 people are believed to be held — forced to live and work in a bleak collection of house, factories, fields and mines that are surrounded by electric fences.
Shin reveals how he did not know there was a world outside these confines. He said: “I just thought that those people who carry guns were born to carry guns and prisoners like me were born as prisoners.”
Shin recalled how his mother and father were kept separate inside the camp and that he never felt they were a family.
He said: “You wear what you’re given, you eat what you’re given, and you only do what you’re told to do.
“So there is nothing that the parents can do for you and there’s nothing that the children can do for their parents.”
Shin revealed that fellow prisoners were executed for “offences” such as hoarding a few kernels of corn and that the campmates were starved to make them repent.
He also revealed how prisoners were kept like animals. He admitted that while the executions were frightening he saw them as a break from the monotony of labour and starvation.
After escaping, he says he had to learn to feel, adding: “When I was in the camp I don’t remember crying so much. Even when my mother and my brother were executed, I didn’t shed too many tears.
“But now, for example, when I see videos of the Holocaust it moves me to tears. I think I’m still evolving – from an animal to a human.”
Shin still bears the physical scars from his ordeal — being tortured aged just 13 after his mother and brother were accused of trying to escape.
He had the top of a finger chopped off for accidentally breaking a machine in a factory.
His life began to change when he met Park while working in the textile factory, Park was a new prisoner who had seen the outside world – and he began telling shin about life beyond the fence.
In January 2005 he and Park were gathering firewood in a remote area of the camp near the fence. They decided to run for the fence when Shin fell on his face.
Park got to the fence first but was electrocuted as he pulled it down to escape.
Shin only managed to free himself because he crawled over his friend’s back.
He stole and bribed his way into China and went to Shanghai where he sneaked into the South Korean embassy where he was granted asylum.
I heard this story on the radio this weekend and it really struck me how much of who we are is what we learn growing up.
He did not know right from wrong.
Turned his mother in to the guards to get some extra food.
Then she was shot.
He is only now, starting to understand about family and have remorse.
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This is an amazing story. How incredibly sad. Gripped my heart to hear him speak of evolving from an animal to a human. Thanks for sharing OP.
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Thanks OP for sharing. In the 'civilized' world, we frequently run across families who live and believe in values very different than our own. Their kids know nothing else.
Love amongst other things are learned. It shouldn't be a surprise that certain people show love differently than others. Some believe that extreme conflict is love, whereas others extreme control, if these items are missing from a relationship, they may feel unloved... and look to escape. Perhaps some of the MLCers are this way.
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Thanks for sharing this OP.
It's unbelievable that people are living their lives in captivity like that and to not know anything different - Shin though this was normal.... :'(
What some humans do to others is just awful :(
It really does make me feel grateful for the freedom I have and the life I live...
new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1769.0