Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Buggy31 on June 18, 2010, 07:31:54 PM
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The most positive, consisitent behavior of my MLC spouse has been his attendance at therapy. He does IC with some joint sessions thrown in. However, I find that therapy is being used to justify his actions and is being twisted to meet his own agenda. Does this make sense to anyone else? I think it's good he has a therapist to talk to because he doesn't have a lot of intimate relationships but what is the relationship btw therapy and the crisis?
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My H sees a weekly IC. He calls it his "paid friend". I don't know if she has helped him much beyond that. I don't ask. He has mentioned that he has explored issues with his mom and childhood and some his past R's.
For me, I will not attend with him until i see evidence he has come out of replay and maybe even later, unless it is for a specific issue, (ie negotiating a return home after he dumps OW, or if an issue with the kids comes up we cannot solve alone).
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From my perspective, I would tend to agree with your impression. It is my wife, now ex-wife, who is in MLC. She would see her counselor and be thinking about things, but it was kind of like attending a motivational seminar....the counseling seemed to "wear off" pretty quickly.
I continue to remind myself that MLC is emotional chaos and they change their feelings frequently. I can remember at least three times in my situation where my wife would literally talk about us being together one day, then the next day talking about how there was no hope for us.
I have read that there are no shortcuts in the MLC process. My experience showed me that counseling was no exception to that. The benefit, if any, to my MLC wife was temporary at best.
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You're probably NOT going to want to hear this, but therapy during MLC does NO good, and each of you have the answers within you on that.
Until the fog is cleared within their heads, and they are READY to work on themselves, no amount of counseling, paid or otherwise is going to work; they are TOO deep within their crisis for the counseling to do any good in getting them to work on themselves.
For some LBS, MC has been a good thing in that the counselor has challenged the MLC'er on what they feel, and this third party CAN bring an area of "truth telling" into the picture, making the MLC'er do some serious thinking, but that works, again, IF the MLC'er is ready to do any thinking about their situation.
Otherwise, they may agree or disagree at one time, and completely forget what they say the next time.
Now, remember, this is my humble opinion on the matter; my husband absolutely REFUSED to go to MC; said he didn't have a problem, and I remember him saying that to me. His problem was ME, according to him, but then, just because he said it didn't make it the Gospel truth, and somewhere down the line, I learned that much. :)
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I agree with HB.
We went to therapy for over 6 months. A big waste of time and money. PHD's in psychology never heard of MLC or menopause. My wife used the sessions to justify divorcing me.
OTOH maybe it was a process that we needed to go through to get to where we are now?
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maybe [therapy] was a process that we needed to go through to get to where we are now?
Many of the expereinces that seem to backfire are part of our learning processes--part of learning from our mistakes.
I'm with OP and HB; Counseling in MLC does not work. That does not mean I would not make an attempt if an MLCer is willing--often they will quit after a few sessions. As HB said, these may serve to get the MLCer to think and thus they may plant seeds for later processing.
The problem is that MLCers are running from their Shadow and counseling is about facing your Shadow. Counselors will encourage discussion of those things they want to forget--keep suppressed or repressed--and those things to which they are not ready to admit. When an MLCer who is not ready is forced to look in the mirror it does not cause them to acknowledge and accept their Shadow, it causes them to run away with greater determination.
As OP said, not all counselors understand MLC and many do not believe in it. Some may also simply validate poor behaviours and choices. This may especially be true in a session where you are not present to show the other side of the story. Some MLCers compartmentalize well or are convincing and a counselor may not notice the signs--the signs may not be at the surface during sessions.
MLCers want someone to agree with their actions. A counselor has a fine line to walk if they want the MLCer to continue counseling. Do not disagree with a divorce or agree, but discuss feelings and reasons... Ask subtly leading questions so that the MLCer can come up with the answers rather than the counselor giving them their answers and opinions.
In the Bible you can find justification for opposing actions or beliefs. The same is true of counselors--and people in general.
That is why I say that though I feel counseling should be a reconciliation requirement, an LBS may need to wait on the counseling since MLCers may return prematurely and even those who remain at home often return so broken that they are still not yet ready.
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Hi,
I just wanted to add that my h and i went for counselling straight after BD, in hindsight it was a mistake as it only seemed to make him worse, he didn't want to do it as a couple so he went on his own. i could tell it wasn't helping us but simply validating his anger towards me and he was always angry after each session. I suspect the counsellor just didn't get that this was MLC. I'm not saying counselling is bad period, but I think the timing is critical.
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I did IC right from the beginning. H claimed that he went to counselor...don't think so. I don't know of too many counselors that know a person is suffering from depression and then tell H that the only solution is to get a divorce. H did finally go to a counselor, the same one I was seeing. At first I was worried that it would be a huge mistake for H to see the same counselor but, it has actually turned out to be a good thing. She has heard both sides of the story and is working with both of us know (H's suggestion). Counselor is focusing on H getting past his anger, me focusing on myself and both of us working on being co-parents.
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Not to disagree hopeful59 but when I went to counseling, she told W that she was depressed, wife said no she isn't and would not do anything about it. Someone in MLC is not going to listen to anyone. There is nothing we can do to force them to listen, not even a IC or MC.
I am glad your IC is working well for you. That is good.
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Thought I'd share a little more about counseling. Basically, the counselor recommended a book about strengthening the marriage.
Just a note to counselors out there......MLCers are typically not interested in reading self help books because they are looking to put the blame elsewhere, and they are certainly not interested in reading a book about strengthening a marriage that they currently want to abandon.
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I can understand why MC would not be good until they are out of the tunnel and ready to reconcile. What about IC? My H started counseling the week before he moved out. He has been out 3 months now and continues to go to counseling. Occasionally he will tell me he has a counseling appointment. I never ask if he has an appointment. In April he said we could put the divorce on hold while he goes thru counseling because he was in no hurry for a divorce and maybe he would change his mind thru counseling. By early May he said no amount of "healing" was going to change the fact that he will not give me 100% and wants a divorce. I don't know what to think about it but I do know that he continues to go. Is IC helpful during this process?
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Some thoughts about individual counseling
I have had 15 years of IC following the "Talk" therapy protocol with two different therapists. Although I didn't take any medication, the first was a psychiatrist. The second was a psychologist who followed the somewhat interesting beliefs of the writer David Schnarch.
However, in retrospect I would say that "Talk" therapy is a complete and utter waste of time and money. I wish I had the fifteen years and many thousands of dollars back. Talk therapy is cathartic in the short run and keeps you coming back. But no real progress is made - there is no clear beginning, middle and end during which specific kinds of learning occurs.
Not until I found ego state therapy did anything help me understand myself and my MLC wife. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego-state_therapy. Basically, the idea is that we all have multiple personality disorder to some degree, created by trauma experienced during the years our brains were developing. See the links at the bottom of the article to two of the sub-methods of ego state therapy. I highly recommend that you choose one of them if you seeking IC and don't waste your time with Talk therapy, which is unfortunately what most therapists practice.
Don't worry - I have no vested interest in trying to talk down Talk therapy and talk up Ego State therapy, other than wanting to see others avoid the wasted time and money.
Some thoughts about marriage counseling
There is no question that our MC made things worse and accelerated the sense of panic that was washing over my wife as she was going into full blown MLC. I have since been to at least two dozen other therapists since that time. They all say the same thing: they can't help. I would be happy with someone other than me saying to my wife that in their professional opinion, she is screwing our kids out of their most precious, most important legacy, namely a loving, nurturing family (like the one she made with me for 25 years), and that that goes for kids of ANY age, not just until they move out of our house. No therapist has been willing to say that. Why is that? I really don't know, but it's a serious flaw in the way that therapists are trained, at least the ones I have talked to.
So, I would say that my experience of MC is that is generally a complete waste of time, too, perhaps because it is most frequently practiced by people who also practice "Talk" therapy for individuals.
There is hope and know-how out there. It's just that very few therapists know about it. Here's one key resource: is "Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson. Again, I have no vested interest whatsoever, other than, in a small way, hoping to move the psychotherapy community away from Talk therapy and toward ego state therapy and attachment theory.
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hi,
wow...i thought it was just me, that somewhere along the line i did something wrong because MC did make it worse for us!
i suggested counselling almost right after BD and you are right HB, that the fog is really too thick for MCLer to be able to benefit from it esp in the beginning. my H went to MC with me, and yes, became very angry with me for roping counselor in to 'make him do the things i want him to do' ( ie. leave OW )!!
i agree that it made H run away from me with great determination....in typical MLC style, H said he went initially to ' help' me deal with my pain, he certainly didn't need any help!! when MC started working on H, he freaked out and didn't want to go back anymore!
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My H called and went to the C that I had been talking to, pretty much of his own volition -- once about 6 months in, when I think he just wanted to convince the C that he was so angry at me, that it was all my fault, and once last fall, when I thought he was having some kind of awakening.
The first time he just stopped after one phone call and one meeting; the second time he went twice, and not any more. The C told me that he had never met anyone with less empathy, and that H only heard the bits that he wanted to hear.
This C was extremely helpful to me for quite a while, but he doesn't accept mlc as such, although he is very pro-marriage and solution oriented. I'm not talking to him any more; I think he has done all he is able at this point. One point in his favor, however, is that H liked him and felt he could talk to him.
But the bottom line is that I also agree that trying to do MC, which is what this C was trying to do, with a person in mlc doesn't really work.
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This is an interesting topic. I have a couple of experiences on this.
After the emotional affair happened, our GP advised that we both take individual counseling with a view to couples counseling. We've been in IC for almost a year now.
First up, on individual counseling. I used to be the kind of man that would rather walk on hot coals that talk to a therapist. I have since learned, through this experience that talking can be good, and I know for sure that I has helped me slow down and understand myself.
I've realized that the counseling helps me well with practical things in life - like emotionally relating to myself and others, but it doesn't have the answers for my marriage problems. My counselor does not really believe in midlife-crisis. He believes that my wife wants to destroy our family because she is unhappy in the marriage. And who knows? He may well be right. I've been trying to accept that, but I know in my heart that I haven't heard a convincing reason for her leaving, and I haven't heard those words from her: 'I'm unhappy in our marriage ... here's why ....' All I've heard is blame, and it isn't the same thing, or is it? Anyway, my wife does not want to go for couples counseling ... which I think is just basically not acceptable given our situation.
Individual counseling for my wife has helped in ways. It has helped her talk about some of the abuses in her childhood. Her counselor also advised my wife not to leave me ( yet ) because she was emotionally week. My wife is in control of what they discuss in her therapy ... which is how it should be, BUT her therapist hears only one side of the story ... the surreal, exaggerated, nasty side. I doubt very much that my wife talks about the amount of time she spends on FaceBook ( which is basically the center of her life at the moment because of her high school friends ). I doubt very much that she has explained her continued feelings for her high school sweetheart.
My wife used her therapist to contact mine to ask him to tell me that my wife wanted to separate. We signed an agreement that they could exchange info, but for me this peaked new heights of surreality. I can't for the life of me believe that a professional therapist would do that. As far as I'm concerned, it is up to my wife to communicate with me. I've never even met her therapist. She has never met me.
Earlier this year we talked to a 'separation counselor'. He was older and had clearly seen a lot. He very, very quickly zoned in on abuses in my wife's childhood. He told me that our marriage was over. He told me that we had to part. That my wife had to learn how to love herself. That she couldn't love me as she was. That it would take a long time for her to recover. He told her that I wasn't to blame, that I wasn't the person she was portraying me as. This was the crow-bar that helped prize open the door of childhood abuse. My wife was in tears. The first I'd seen in all of this mess. My wife started talking about it after that.
It was a shocking session, but I think it was the closest I've come to any truth - anything that makes sense. He called it 'parting' rather than separating. He told us that we'd have to part before we could unite. We haven't yet. Every day is another possibility.
Right now I am feeling stronger. This changes from day to day, but I'm starting to like myself again. I guess I'm detaching too. I'm starting to have more focus. I'm starting to see how absurd my wife is behaving.
Therapy is an interesting topic. In summary - I think when the MLC sufferer talks to their therapist, they're in control. They need to be honest. In fact - they need someone to keep them straight. It's a very big ask.
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Not only is the fog too thick during MLC, but I have seen too many times where the MLCer takes something that is said and can be considered ambiguous and twisted it to support their position.
My H did this when I had a brief "I'm not done with this M" talk just to let him know I was standing... so although not in the context of counseling, my H did it to me. I know I've seen many MLCers take things the wrong way or Mis-hear them to suit their own needs.
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This is exactly what I am talking about in my situation. My husband uses his therapy session to support his insane behavior. I've had to tune out his comments because they are so twisted and contorted but here are some of the things he's figured out after being in therapy for a year.
-He realized he's unhappy (which he already knew last year) and he needs to figure out why
-He's unhappy in the R and has been for years (including those that he BEGGED me to extend our family and have lots of children)
-That truth is relative (meaning my truth that it's not about our R is not his truth)
-that he's not depressed but unhappy
-that his relationship with OW is nobody's bussiness
-that something like this (OW relationship) couldn't possibly happen if there weren't issues in the R
He is still going and I wonder if it's worth the time and money during MLC because he sees, hears and does whatever he wants anyhow.
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Interesting discussion as I've been wondering this myself. I am learning much here.
I have started seeing a counselor that is helping me through this. The terms he uses for this crisis are different than the terms used here, but that is simply semantics. He has a very good understanding of the MLC and infidelity. He also has a very good track record. At our initial session it was uplifting to hear from him that I'm not the crazy one. He also supports me in standing. We've not yet begun to explore a lot about me, but I know that day is coming. For the spouse of the MLCer I would definitely recommend counseling.
For the MLCer, I don't know that it will help much if he is in Replay. The counselor and I discussed this a bit yesterday. He did not say that therapy wouldn't help H, and he would love to see him. But, H has this momentum going right now based upon the irrational story he has created about me and our marriage. I can't get in the way of his momentum. I have to let it run. Until it runs and crashes we won't be able to get to the issues of how the marriage crisis happened. I don't think H truly will be able to understand the issues he is facing until he crashes. At this point in time I tend to think that counseling for him will just slow the momentum. He's not far enough along in his crisis for any kind of therapy to change the irrational story.
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Good point. I feel the same way about my H. It may take "rock bottom" but I'm prepared to let go because sometimes as it is stated on this site "life needs to be experienced". I'll second the benefits of therapy, mostly if you've found someone pro marriage. It has helped me tremendously. It has helped me keep perspective, to learn about myself and my needs, to set boundaries in relationships and to have some solid strategies for moving forward instead of staying stuck. I recommend it for the LBS.
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If the majority of mental health professionals (psychiatrists, social workers, marriage counselors, et al.) do not recognize MLC or understand it, how can they possibly know how to help an LBS, especially one who is standing?
When H filed and disappeared, I collapsed mentally. To use another non-clinical term, I had a nervous breakdown. The bizarre, explosive, unpredictable, and ominous nature of his behavior for several months took a toll on me. When ultimately he announced his "master plan" of disappearing . . . my mind said TIME OUT. I found myself in intensive outpatient treatment in a psychiatric hospital.
I am no weakling, believe me. I have a responsible job, a good education, and a heck of a hard head. But this crisis took my mind to places that it didn't want to visit. Surreal doesn't begin to describe it.
My treatment consisted of a psychiatrist telling me that I have major depressive disorder -- no argument from me there, I ticked all the boxes, as our UK friends like to say. The rest of my treatment consisted of multiple therapists telling me "he's a deadbeat, write a letter of goodbye -- it will be cathartic, men come and go, you'll get past it, lots of people are divorced, you don't need him," etc., etc.
None of them understood me when I talked about MLC. Some looked at me a little pitifully.
I have read that severe psychological trauma can result in post-traumatic stress disorder. Certainly it can bring on anxiety, depression, and a host of other issues.
I wonder what counseling experiences other LBSs have had. Do you recognize that you have suffered a significant emotional/psychological shock? Do you feel like the walking wounded? Have you seen good results from working with a therapist or counselor?
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UD,
it has been over a year, and I still feel like the walking wounded at times...
I have had good experience in couceling...I took every word that H said, pulled them all apart and separated the true from the false...the possible from the impossible if that makes sense...about me, and ONLY me...
then, I started working on ME!
It was then and only then that I could start believing and accepting what was going on with him...I couldnt fix him then and I still cant now...but boy, did I fix ME...
now, I know for sure, that no matter which way this goes, Ill be ok...and I wont go in those circles at any time in the future.
hope that helps!
hugs,
L
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Thanks for bringing this up! I went to IC for about 5 weeks. I started going weeks after BD. I had mixed feelings. Sometimes, I'd leave my therapist "on a high", feeling really good and positive and other times, I questioned what she told me to do. I confronted her one time and asked her straight out why she was so negative about my marriage, and I felt like she was trying to make me break up my marriage. She said she just wanted me to be ok, which I told her was my goal. She then tried for my H and I to attend a session together and my gut told me no, after having thought about it. The next day I sent her an email telling her that I would stop therapy, it was too much for me with school, work etc. Too much of a commute. The true reason was that I had to have my H work this out for himself. I actually put that in the email as well. And guess what, the same night my H came to me and gave me an update on his "journey".
My therapist said she wanted me to be ok with the thought that he might decide to leave. It was nice of her but I wasn't ready to hear that yet...These days, I'd rather pray and get acupuncture to balance my ying and yang, mentally and physically.
We are looking for encouragement and it seems that the therapist make it even worse :(. My mum actually told me that a friend of hers went to to MC with her husband. They wanted to work through their problems but the counselor told them to just get divorced. The couple cried because divorce didn't even cross their minds! Sometimes, therapist do more harm than any good. I've come to the realization that no one can help me. Only I can change how I think and feel. They can suggest something but it's up to me to implement it.
I hope you're feeling better these days. Yes, our entire world gets turned up-side-down without forewarning...
hugs to you!
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...significant emotional/psychological shock? Do you feel like the walking wounded?
YES and YES. I felt like I was standing in a war zone that had just been blasted and I was the target with a direct hit. At many times I can still see in my mind the destruction, the debris lying around me. At least now I'm moving forward, slow, picking piece up.
As for counseling, they are trying to give the best advice they can, but having no understand about MLC or standing they fall so short. As there is no treatment for the MLC there is no treatment for us which I believe is why they don't have an official MLC diagnose. This website alone, has proven that there are set behaviors that make up the MLC. I think there are many that experience this crisis, most LBS just get divorced and sadly leaving ones spouse is not a crisis, . not in today's world.
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Throughout this last 2 years I/we have been through three councillors, together and apart, spending hours divulging those innermost secrets and feelings almost apologetically as a hitherto happily married couple admitting to some sort of failure. I am husband to wife travelling her journey.
Looking back I am pleased that our college health plan covered most of the cost (80%) rather than us, as I now would have regretted spending the thousands of dollars. I was looking for constructive information regarding the sudden and difficult change in my wife, the sort of information that this Spouse web site brims with and for which I am very grateful.
No therapist would (in a couples session) turn to the MLC'er and tell them straight that at this time they are not to be trusted, that they are not to be believed and that their out of character actions will be damaging and upsetting to those around who love them, possibly ending up destroying a family which up to that point, was a very happy one.
Also they will not (in my experience) recognise the powerful contributions of fluctuating hormones (especially in women) and other triggers which can exacerbate the situation.
I have sat through hours of counseling, listening to the 'if your wife has these feelings then they must be true' comments, but knowing in my heart that the sudden conflict, sadness and soul searching (plus the tears, irritation and need to abandon family home) that she was experiencing was not in character.
If you have no one to talk to (friends, family) then by all means a neutral professional is useful. Otherwise, follow your heart regarding standing for your spouse then affirm those feelings with the powerful knowledge and experience of this web site.
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I have been to four IC sessions and my H has been to two. I went before knowing anything about MLC, and I just wanted some support and advice on how to handle my situation.
My counselor listened to my story and told me it was MLC and not my fault. That was a revelation to me, because I had been trying to figure out what I did wrong and how I could fix it. She assured me that if she could talk to H and get him to see why he was doing this, he would see the damage and probably decide the affair is not the answer. Her and I both agreed that the affair was not the problem, but it was a symptom of the problem.
The first visit with H, she told him about MLC and managed to gain his trust. But, something strange happened on his second visit. He told me he had a "great session" and that she was helping him see things with a different perspective and to work on himself. I went the next day, and her tone with me totally changed. She told me she was pro-marriage, BUT where was his commitment? Who was giving me emotional support?
I told her that I believed this was MLC, and I wanted to see who he becomes as he works through this. She said, "Yeah, it's a little of this and a little of that." What??? She kept going back to me and if I would be okay if he left...
So, I feel a bit disillusioned. I think she knows about MLC, but must not agree or understand the concept of standing. It also made me angry that she could listen to H and take everything he says as fact, when he is saying and doing so many things that are out of character.
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Interesting responses so far.
I have a suspicion that counselors/therapists can be of some help, whether or not they know about MLC, but that ultimately it is up to our intuition and good sense to keep us sane as LBSs. That is why a forum such as this is so critically important, because it helps us clarify our thoughts and verify our intuition.
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I firmly believe that until you have lived this, you can't possibly fully understand what goes on in MLC or be able to give advice on how to handle it. There need to be some counsellors who have lived through it - maybe we should all retrain??? ??? ??? ??? It would certainly be good if we could help save some marriages when MLC strikes. And it seems to be happening a LOT.
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Well, I feel fortunate to be one that is working with a very good therapist. While he did not call this a MLC, he has on occasion used those words, and others which are synonymous. The words maybe different, but it all boils down to the same thing. He let's me pour my heart out. He has helped me to learn to relieve the anxiety and offers advice similar to what I receive here. He assists me in seeing things as they are. It's kind of funny. Sometimes there will be something I am considering or have thought about. He some how manages to bring it up without me mentioning it. He teaches and he listens. He does not hold back though from giving his opinion on some things. Sometimes I leave feeling happy and more often feeling reflective. I don't always agree with his advice, but often it is right on target. His speciality areas include training in infidelity, marriage counseling, and as a male he also tends to see more male clients. I'm lucky I guess.
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I have been going for therapy for nearly a year; my therapist wants me to be"OK", but has recognised and understood my need to stand. She rightly thinks I should look after myself rather than focus on H and his problems, and is concerned about the effect on my mental health of my prolonged stand, with H neither going completely or coming back. In other words, I should have ways of protecting myself from his madness (boundaries).
As for MLC itself, my therapist and my psychologist friends recognise that there are times in which people undergo cognitive and emotional reorganisation, particularly men of a certain age. However, we all conclude that MLC is not one single thing, with a single cause, progression and conclusion. It's a crisis, certainly, and often midlife, but not always. People don't progress through definite "stages"; psychology shows that in a number of areas. There's a good article on this site about that.
So if people don't recognise MLC, it's not because it exists or not; MLC is not a clinical term, but relates to a group of pathologies with varying symptoms, progressions and outcomes. It is important that the clinician recognises what we want from our clinical relationship, and that we are realistic about what we can expect from our abberant spouse.
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One thing about therapist/counselors... Depending on each and everyone's situation... If there is a third party involved then no amount of counseling will do any good. Bear in mind MLCer is already thinking that the third party is their "Soulmate". They will convince the therapist that the marriage is/was the problem.
If you are to use a therapist/counselors it's best to approach it in a way how to fix yourself rather that asking them to help patch both of you. Ask yourself what is your intent when going into counseling/therapy. Remember you can't fix them (MLCers) but you can fix yourself.
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I spoke to a counsellor for pretty much 2 years; at first he was an enormous help. He is very pro-marriage, and also understood about cult-like organisations that got hold of people (at first I thought that that was what was involved.... I really didn't get MLC then).
He was extremely helpful even strategically in the beginning. And he was good at dealing with my total and absolute panic for a long, long time. I was a basket case for 2 years, basically.
He, too, felt that if he could just talk to H he could convince him that the way he was heading wasn't the right way, that the problem was a lack of communication, and that if we learned that we would see that it could all be worked out.
H spoke to him, even liked him, but in the end didn't listen. The C became extremely disillusioned with H; said that he had never met anyone with less empathy, that he had serious character flaws, etc.
The C began encouraging me to look elsewhere, all sorts of things. Because of that I seriously considered it.
It's pretty much what Sharon said, he said that yes, he was pro-marriage, but where was H's commitment? Where was H's admission that he had done wrong?
This C was better than most; he often told me that H was doing the best he could in many situations, and he also pointed out repeatedly where I had to change my thinking. He was right in those situations, mostly.
But we reached the end of the line; he didn't accept MLC, although he did accept the idea of all sorts of crises, he still thinks that H should just come home and stop being silly, but I haven't spoken to him for a year or so, and don't plan to.
I know there are counsellors out there who do get MLC, however it seems to me that they also get tired, that they have their methods and if it doesn't respond to their method they don't necessarily look for another one. Mine did try lots of things, but still.
Just my experience; I still think IC is a good idea for us in many cases, but it is also important to know when to stop or to find someone else.
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First counsellor in Asia I think made the situation worse. I've been seeing a therapist for several months since I returned to the US and she's been pro marriage but also wanted me to work on my own issues. I stopped seeing her because I thought everything was fine..I was going with him to Brazil and we were going to be ok.
She's told me things like we are the most married separated couple that she has ever dealt with and that our marriage in very intact. I actually used her words this time when the second BD came about- saying that he was in a conundrum and did not know what he wanted..he could have left me anytime in the last year..thinking that since he did not, that he did have hope for us..instead that allowed him to face me and say, I don't want to be married to you anymore. OUCH!!!!!
I am seeing my therapist again, sort of to help me to prevent any serious damage to my mental health. I really believed that if she thought our marriage was still intact then it was so. Not her fault, she still tells me our marriage is intact even though we may never live together again ( what is that supposed to mean?) and that she knows that I will always feel married to my H probably forever.
She's a good person really, Christian and we pray together. It's not her fault that my H doesn't want me..several times I warned her NOT to take my hope away from me..that I wasn't going that route so it's more my fault I guess that she supported me.
I find that I am getting stronger and more understanding of what I want by using this site as a method to unload, to question and to reflect- thanks to all of you!
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My IC has been great because we have dealt with my issues. We talk about my w, but we do not talk about ending the marriage. This is my journey and even without the w and her affair, I think counseling has helped me relax at work, deal with my children, and become a better man.
We tried couple's counseling and it lasted one session because my w would not give up OM. Counselor told my w that in couple's counseling, the marriage is the client and that it took both parties committed to the marriage to make it work or it would be a waste of time. Now, this counselor sees my w on an individual basis. It is her hope that after she sees my w for a while, she then can prepare her for couple's counseling down the road.
My IC has decided to move me to once every two weeks then monthly as she feels that I have made significant progress and that I seem to be doing fine. Of course, the more time I spend on this site, the better I feel.
Counseling has worked well for me because I have been honest. As long as there is honesty in the session, the counselor can help. However, the IC does not work for the MLCer if he/she lies to the counselor. God knows what stories the w tells the IC person about me. In the past few months, she has gone from being unhappy the past year, to the past four years, to the entire sixteen years we were married. The number changes from day to day. She picks little details and states this crushed her that day. The stories change and the things that I do crush her as well.
To sum it up, counseling can help the LBS a lot if it is focused on helping the LBS grow as a person, couples counseling is a waste if the OM/OW remains, and IC for the MLCer is dependent upon how truthful the MCler is with the therapist. Of course, my w picks and chooses what she wants to hear from the therapist and that does not help either. ((((Hugs)))
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Hello
I have been having Counselling since the middle of July, my has\is brilliant. He has helped me get right back to basics which has made me look at my core beliefs, where they have come from and why they have held me back. It's been painful at times, but very powerful, en lighting and I know I'm growing, becoming stronger, I feel happy (well most days), and I'm really starting to believe in me. All these feelings are new to me.
However last night we discussed my ex, I explained that right now I feel really frustrated about the situation, I want to scream, I want to shake him etc. I am well aware of the part I played in all this and I destroyed the love he felt for me. I know I'm his client and he only has my best interest at heart, but it's left me with lots of doubts about my situation, ie I am stuck, I am wasting my time, I need to move on - I am in lots of ways. (As part of my moving on I feel I want to apologise to my ex for my behaviour because I feel really bad about how I treated him).
Today I feel fed-up with all of this
Any thoughts?
SK x
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SK
First of all, it's so good to hear you say that you believe in yourself and that you feel happy. Don't let that go now by blaming yourself for what you did wrong in your R. We all made mistakes and I am probably guilty of the same as you, but we didn't destroy their love for us ...... this is all about them, not what we did or didn't do.
Your H will see how you have changed and I don't think it will help by apologising to him. It may be seen as pursuing? I may be wrong, but I think that's what others have said before.
Just keep doing what you are doing. I've been through the frustration bit, wanting to scream at them to wake up, but I've gone through that part ..... for now anyway ::) It doesn't do you any good because they will only wake up when they are ready.
I have felt stuck, too, but now I seem to be moving forward. I don't even know for sure what I want any more, but I feel much more positive in myself. I am sure you are not far from that point. It will come where you just get on with your life for you. I didn't believe it would, but it really does.
You are cycling, like we all do. You are doing great. This will pass.
Take care xxx
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I have been going to counseling since February off and on maybe 10 visits total. I did not get anything out of it but a place to vent and then wait for two weeks to vent again, they took notes but were not able to help me. This site was a better place me to vent and learn. The best part was the venting and anger went away real fast and the learning was very rapid. There is so much info to pull from I feel that I would be better served getting counseling from the site here as one of the paid members. I am no longer going to counseling. Hfb
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I am combining this thread with a previous one on the same subject.
Hopefully no on will mind.
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I ran straight into counselling after BD. I was all over the place and my first concern was how to handle myself and the situation for my girls, hence the need to ground myself in therapy.
I didn't go in with any expectations of saving my marriage, I thought my marriage was over (hadn't found this site back then). I simply wanted to learn how to cope.
My counsellor is good, for now. I recognise I may outgrow or no longer require a therapist. I am working on me. She is a little sceptical about MLC and Standing but is open to what I tell her and has indicated she will research.
Really I am in counselling because amidst the spewing I saw some home truths in what H had to say. I didn't like it nor did I like who I had become. A hardnosed and controlling person in my personal and work life. That's not who I was and I wanted to find ME again.
I also wanted to be a good example to my girls, not just as a woman but as a human being. Show them how we should interact with everyone around us. I had become a bit of a social hermit. I am slowing breaking down the wall
Counselling works for me on two fronts, I can vent about H and in doing so we explore possible reasons for his fall to MLC (as said before for some it's a transition not a crisis - I appreciate there are things in H's history that forced him into crisis - helps with the forgiveness and acceptance) and I get to actively focus on ME and my journey.
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Thank you for your comments.
As I've said before, my Councellor has been fantastic in helping me grow, I've revisted lots of my own issues and finally put them to bed. I wished I'd done this years ago, but maybe
I wasn't really ready to face up to a lot of stuff. Now I am. He doesn't however understand MLC. So I will continue on my path, as it's often been said here we also need to face up to our
own issues in order to grow. But most importantly do it for ourselves, no-one else.
The frustrated feeling it not so strong, but I want to pack my bags and run, but I don't have the money to do so right now. I am happy, and most of the time I'm positive especially when
he's not in my thoughts. No I won't send him an email to apologise, I have put it together, but I won't send it.
I'm going back to NC contact now, it will help to me to grow and move on.
Thanks ever so everyone.
SKx
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As part of my moving on I feel I want to apologise to my ex for my behaviour because I feel really bad about how I treated him
SK.
I know some will say it's pursuing, but I went ahead and did it. For me, it was important enough to have my H come over and talk face to face. I didn't grovel or focus on my negative actions. I told him that I needed to thank him for his support over the years and helping me to become the strong and proud woman that I am. That even in this turmoil, he has taught me even more about myself. I was sorry for some of my actions, but that I am now learning more about me then I ever have, and because of him I will grow to become even stronger and better. I needed him to know that whether we stay together or go our separate ways I'm a better person because of him, so I needed to say Thank You.
He didn't come running back. But, maybe I planted a seed in his mind... something he can mull on in his own time. Since then, I've felt closure that I've done all I could do, and I have ceased all contact since then.
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I tried counselling but it wasn't successful.
It was in the early days and she kept saying 'this doesn't sound like a man that wants to leave' which raised my hopes only to have them dashed all the time.
Luckily I had already started on my road of knowledge and finally thought I got better advice from my friends so kicked into touch.
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SNAP! JA XXX
HUGS
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When my wife left, I sank into deep depression, so the first thing I did was see a physician. He put me on two different depression medications.
I was on the phone constantly with friends and family, trying to figure out what in the heck was going on?? The confusion and devastation was unbelievable!! A friend of mine gave me the name of a psychologist so I called the guy and lined up an appointment.
Right away I liked the guy. He seemed to know what he was doing. I visited him every week for about two months. He started to tell me things that I didn't like about my wife. He said things about her in a way that I thought was not christian like, and lacked compassion for what she was going through. One time he said, "You'll have much less stress in your life now!", and then he said, "Your wife was never a responsible person, and you should move on!". I just thought comments like that were uncalled for.
Well it got to a point that all I did was talk about my wife when I went to get counselling. Finally he said, "Can't you see your wife is severely depressed, and she has been depressed for a long time?" He totally caught me by surprise by what he said. He then said, "It could be a very long time before she gets over it!" When he said that I sat quietly and thought about it. I knew she was having a midlife crisis but I hadn't thought about it in those terms before. It was after that I stopped going to the therapist, and I started researching MLC and I fortunately found this site after many months.
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I went to a counselor twice. I was with my mother taking care of her. My h had been acted really crazy, before I had left him to care for my mom. He called every single day, Monday to Friday. I thought that was because he could call cheaper for work. Then I tried to contact him on the weekend,I was upset because my mother had had a severe downturn and we didn't know if she was going to survive. I called and called all weekend, our house and his cell phone. No answer. That was the first time the penny dropped and I considered that my h of 28 years just might be cheating on me. I desperately continued to call him and finally got him on his cell phone late on Sunday night. Told him what was going on and asked where the hell he had been, I had been trying to contact him all weekend. He lied. He came home to see us a couple of weeks later, after saying something really cruel like, "*uck 28 yrs., I'm entitled to be happy"... after a long pause, I asked if there was somebody else. He lied. Then he came home. He stayed for a week and throughout the whole week insisted there was nobody else. He just needed space and please give him time to work through this. When he returned to Europe, I went to a doctors appointment and saw a counselor advertised there, and went home and called her immediately. She was very helpful. She listened to what was going on and told me flat out, it sounded like my h was having an affair. As I was leaving I asked if I should go back to europe and find out and she definitely felt I should.
I did. He told me that very night. I was jet lagged and had had a glass of wine, which of course hit me like a bomb. I had not been eating since he had left, so an empty stomach didn't help.
Anyway, a few months later when my h was back for Christmas, we went to see the counselor again. She didn't think he was MLC, as I had asked her about that. She told us, she saw a wonderful couple, who had had a wonderful marriage and was sure we could work it out. After seeing her, my h said he wanted me to come back with him, as my mother was very ill by then I couldn't. In Feb. she passed away. My h came home for the funeral. We had a huge confrontation, which ended with him sobbing me and asking me to take him back. He assured me he just wanted his life back. We couldn't get a flight the same day, so he went ahead and the day he arrived, he called me at OW's insistence while she sat there and made sure he did exactly what he was suppose to, and told me not to come. That our marriage was over and he was in love with OW.
I went back to Europe, moved my furniture and belongings, arranged for them to be sent to Canada. Returned to Canada and left a week later for New Zealand.
Now my h, saw a psychologist and a psychiatrist here in Europe. I suspect he lied to them, directed them to the conclusion he wanted them to come to. I think he also lied to me about what they had told him.... he has never changed his story about that, so they may very well have told him exactly what he told me they said, but of course, he manipulated them. He claims the one psychologist suggested that perhaps he could keep us both, me as his wife and the other as his mistress. The psychiatrist felt he was preparing him to let go and get on with his own life. That we had outgrown each other and although we had once been good partners, we no longer had the same needs or requirements.
I think my psychologist might have been quite helpful, but I don't think she believed in MLC, so initially helpful perhaps, and as for standing... I didn't even realize that was what I was doing. The two my h saw, I don't blame them in the least, let's be honest, you can only help with the INFORMATION, you are provided with and well the patient was in full blown MLC... so I expect your imagination can fill in blanks about how those sessions went. lol
All and all, not sure. Have not heard good things. Have heard that most shrinks prefer to work one on one... not comfortable with couple counseling. Dependent on the who you get I guess.
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I've had two therapist.
First was just after H agreed to work on marriage, 3 weeks after BD. H went to her once, the day he decided he was leaving. She always, from the beginning said that this was not my fault. She said it was him. I stopped seeng her the day he moved out. I couldn't face her knowing he told her he was leaving me before I knew. I felt betrayed. I felt like she could have stopped him. I don't believe that now.
Current therapist is amazing. He has encouraged me to Stand. He has worked with my children and continues to help them express themselves to their father. He actually walks me through different scenarios each week that will help me be ok in dealing with H.
H has been once with me, for a 3 hour session and 2 times as a family. Since ourr last family session H continues to make appointments for individual therapy, but always cancels at the last minute. He also will not take calls from the therapist, he'll only email or text.
I find this interesting because this is also how he attempts to maintain contact with his children.
Therapist thinks H is massively confused, MLC and PTSD combined. PTSD probably brought on MLC and a few other things pushed it. H decided to leave after another incident that brought on PTSD.
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Hi,
Therapy helped me with practical strategies and tools. To manage my anxieties about time keeping, and tidyness. To better understand why my children behave in certain ways and how best to relate to them. I've made strong permanent changes in my patience and emotional communication.
It allowed me to understand things that I was sad about, and happy about. Practically it was very good and I'd like to resume some of that.
Therapy didn't help me a lot with understanding this crisis or my role in it. All my therapist could tell me was that my negative behaviors were not unusual but with *this* person ( my wife ) they are not compatible. He was very quick to declare the marriage over. He was very quick to fix on the role that I played in it. I've never felt so low in my life than after some of those sessions - and I believe that he didn't make a good judgement. I talked to him about it. In the end he wanted me to tell him what I needed to hear from him. That wasn't what I was looking for.
I genuinely think that I worked hard, listened hard, made sacrifices and tried to show my wife that I loved her. Since learning about love languages, I can understand that maybe I should focus more on the things I didn't do, rather than the things that I did. My therapist told me that all the answers are with my wife.
I can't get my answers from her, but lately I'm starting to see glimpses of myself, and I'm finding more hope in myself.
My sister in law is also a therapist. She who dealt with a lot of women abused in childhood. She tells me that my wife projecting. That I'm taking the anger that was built up over her life, and that it feels good for her to have a focal point for it. She tells me that it is apparent that I'm blaming myself for this and it is wrong of me to do that. She tells me that in time I'll see where I have been mistreated in our marriage. She is concerned for me, and gently tells me to move on. That I'll find that I can stand strong, and in fact it will be healthier for me than married life has been.
I talked to a marriage counselor by myself. His first questions were about our backgrounds. My parents have been married for 54 years. Her parents were married for 17. Her father was mentally ill, her mother was abused by her father. My wife doesn't have a reference for a healthy marriage. She tells me that my parents don't have one either. I can see her point in some ways - but I think the 54 years proves us wrong. I know that all marriages have their quirks. The marriage counselor told me that eventually people like my wife wake up to themselves and not to shut the door to her. He told me to kill her with kindness, that affairs eventually end. Where are all the success stories from them? Nothing can grow in bad soil. He helped me. We'll see.
We also met another therapist together and it was a very interesting experience. I'll write it up on my own thread soon.
Good topic.
holdingon
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Sorry, but did I really start this thread and misspell the title? Yikes. I musta been out of it.
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I am fortunate to have a very good therapist. She is kind when she feels I need it and in my face ( which is even better) when I need it. Her goal of course is to work on me. And through my seesions I am learning so so so many things aboutmyself that I would not be able to do alone.
She "gets" the MLC thing. And while she understands it, she also reminds me many many times, that this is H's problem not mine. It's good to have someone that understands why I am questioning his actions and behaviours. She in Letting Go's terms says "he's f'ing nuts. :) That not making light of it, but she agrees that he is lost , depressed and truly confused. Her mantra to me is "remember it's the actions not the words.
I truly am grateful that I have her in my life. Yesterday in our session I told her that I'm going to limit my conversations about my situation to her, and well of course here. Most people don't truly understand it, and they end up saying things to me that makes it worse. Even if it is well meaning, unless you are in my shoes you have no idea what I am feeling. I need to work this out on my own, with her and this community's support.
I am blessed to have her in my life1
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I saw a counselor for about a year and a half. He assisted me with understanding myself. He had no knowledge of MLC and that aspect was difficult. To be honest, I outgrew him. I could no longer just go and talk about my problems without the person listening having a knowledge of MLC.
I tried several time to give him resources, but he really felt that my H had a cognitive crystalization and that he no longer had feelings for me. His focus was constantly to help me cope with that issue.
I haven't seen him for about 2 months. The lawyer I consulted (who had an MLC) recommended a Christian psychologist. I may contact him in the future, but I don't feel any desperation right now.
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I think I am in the fortunate category.
I have never really looked to my therapist for answers, only advice and perspective. He has been great for that. My therapist has served as a sounding board, a safe place to vent, and an objective outsider. His stance has been that I am the one who decides how long to stand for my marriage and his job is to help me either way.
He is not really on board with MLC since it is not a diagnosis, but still seems pretty in line with much of the advice I get here. He recommended a book not long ago that I am reading now called “The Peter Pan Syndrome.” It seems to me like it looks at child development and how it develops into what the author calls Peter Pan Syndrome. If you changed out Peter Pan for MLC it has a lot of the same ideas that get talked about here. It does have some interesting ideas, but relies heavily on anecdotal evidence.
With my therapist’s help I have worked hard to separate my feelings from my decisions about what is best for my daughter. I have begun to look at my own behaviors that enable others to abuse me. I have made progress in seeing my marriage and my husband for what it is/was, not just what I wanted to see.
I have only recently gotten to the point where my appointments are more about me and not just about my marriage and my H’s latest antics. I can see a lot of hard work ahead of me right now.
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I eventually decided to see a counsellor and it really helped.What I realised early on was that I was there to talk about and help me not my H.She was my therapist not his.She wouldnt be drawn into views on my H because she had never met him and of course there are always two sides to a story.She did say he sounded as if he was going through a crisis but the important thing was for to me to help me and the best way to do that was talk.I initially spent all my time talking my H until she made it clear it was impossible to guess what was going on his head and if he was depressed, he probably wouldnt knw what was happening in his own head so I had to try and avoid guessing cos thats all it was.i
I then took my youngest daughter to a psychologist.She has been destroyed by her fathers behaviour especially when my dad passed and he spewed like never before.
The psycholigist was more open to suggest H issues explaining that he probably didnt mean what he said and that it sounded like he was going through a very deep personal crisis.She completely got the fact that d wasupset that h said he left the marriage not the girls...our d said that as far as she was concenred she was the marriage and the very reason for its being.The Psych also acknowledged that h had destroyed a very close family unit but it was important for our d to give herself the permission to see her dad in the future if thats what she wanted. D was insistent that she ould never be part of his life again especially if ow remained in it. What i did get from talking to Psych was the feelings we were going through,all of us were very normal..the same feelings we all share here every day.The hiding away to escape, the anger,the despair, the shouting,the desperation, the feeling of loss..its all normal. For me it was worth it to understand that.....
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MLCer has returned to us after 3 months of abandonment and insanity. Yet there is still lingering depression issues, personality shifts (from old H to new H), teenage attitudes, and remorse, but not crawling on his knees remorse. The therapist i had been seeing does not recognize MLC and nor does he promote the Christian value of marriage. While each day old H is "present" longer, he is still "different" to everyone who knows him. He believes time will cure "it". He keeps going around asking himself "why did i do this?" H felt counselors did nothing to help him. My therapist does not believe any therapy will help; and if i want to be with him, i clearly have set my standards low. I had thought we should go to marriage counseling or get him a psychiatric evaluation or go on a marriage weekend. But the therapist said he believes that H must have always been this way and I didn't know it, and enabled it. And he will NEVER change back. Hmm. I realize H was never the most mature adult, but he was always so traditional in in values and a dedicated husband and father. The person who became depressed in Dec/Jan of 2010 and dropped a bomb in Feb of 2011 was positively alien. Like i said, he dumped the OW and that life and is home now, but is not fully H. Now I've found a marriage therapist close to home with a Christian philosophy. I want my H to hear my concerns about rebuilding trust and security through the mouth of a professional, so I really thought counseling was essential to rebuilding. This site has been so good at helping me through this. I feel like this the only helpful source thus far. That, and my faith. So, should i push for marriage counseling? How about a marriage weekend? I doubt he'll change back, but he can at least work at it.
Angelgirl 45
H is 45
2 teenage Ds
25yrs
rebuilding
Edited by RCR to change icon
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Dump your therapist.... it's not a good match.... forget about MC or "weekends" it's too soon.
Prepare for your husband to "run" again, but he may be a low energy MLCer and remain in the home. Allow him his depressed state and stop trying to change it, help him, or FIX it.... allow him the DIGNITY of growing up and making his own choices, even if they turn out to be mistakes. You are not his mommy or his jailer. If you want a restored marriage, and it is MLC, you have a long ways to go on a twisty, windy road.
Please read ALL, and I mean ALL of the articles and info available to you on this forum... we are here to support and help, but please do your homework and don't make us school you in the fundamentals. If you are here, there are some concepts that I believe you should ACCEPT... give it a try.... if it doesn't work for you, you can always change your mind, but if you are believing in MLC and STANDING, then please give it your attention.
Forget counseling.
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LG beat me to it.
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Angelgirl,
I completely agree that you need to dump that first counselor and that it is too early for marriage counseling or marriage week ends.
But that does not mean you should not make attempts at counseling and marriage encounter week ends. They may simply not work for him but you need to go to counseling and if you encourage marriage counseling while accepting that he may not go (yet) you are sending him a message that it is important. So when he is ready you will have already planted those seeds.
As for that first counselor...Oh people like that make me mad. I mean I'm used to skeptical counselors, but that one sounds over the top and beyond dangerous. When you and your husband have rebuilt your life and had a few years after rebuilding, send him a letter. Oh he just makes me mad. >:(
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AG--first thing to know is that your old husband is never coming back. I am not saying that the one you see today is permanent. It's not. I am suggesting that he's not through his MLC yet and has not yet become who he will be. He's not the grown-up yet. Only time will tell who he will be in the end. He has a lot of work to do still.
Since he's not even close to being there yet, your questions and concerns will have to wait awhile longer. It's, unfortunately, still about him. A wise person told me soon after my H returned that I would get my chance to ask the questions, but it wasn't time yet. Only after he had been home for 3-4 months was I really able to feel free to ask questions and share my hurt. He's been back for over 6 months now. Many of the questions I needed to ask have been answered on his time. Other questions have become less important and disappeared from my mind. My concerns and wishes are being recognized more daily and weekly, but it takes time.
The full remorse also comes slowly in bits and pieces. I don't know how I knew this, and that my H was back for good, but you will know.
RCR is right in that it's too early for MC. We didn't go for 3-4 months. He wasn't ready, and I had to accept that. I am still too new at this reconciliation process to fully express or understand all of it. We are not finished yet. I suspect there are stages here also that I am going through. I can say that the trust and security issues are very hard for an MLCer to handle right away. Those also come back with time. My gut feeling is that those issues are the last to be dealt with for the LBS and MLCer. They are being worked on all along but are the last to be resolved. Other things that contribute to the trust issues have to be dealt with first. (Just my thoughts on this right now. As I said, we are still early in the reconciliation process, but I think we are doing very well.)
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Angelgirl,
I am very fortunate to have a therapist that understands this crazy thing called MLC. And she also understands my standing. She may not agree with it, but she reminds me that it is my life, and my choices. She has been there to help ME. To take the focus off of H and make sure that I understand that while this journey is about H, it's first and foremost about ME. She is helping me to see that I have to take ownership of my life, take ownership of my happiness, take ownership of my heart and soul. It bothers me immensely that your therapist is so adamant about you and your marriage. Dump that therapist! Find one that understands this crazy world we all find ourselves in. Seriously, how can that person think they are helping you at all? I'm with RCR... that makes me very mad!
Hugs to you!!!
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Angelgirl. I'm pretty new at this, but I cannot stress the importance of therapy for yourself. I agree that you need to find a therapist that is working with you not against you. As you are learning, MLC is very compacted and complex. When I asked my therapist if she believed in MLC she answered what is MLC. The important fact here is that your H is very confused so you need to take care of yourself right now while he figures himself out. So I'm not sure she believes on MLC, but the gameplan is the same. She did ask me what I wanted to do about my marriage. I told her I wanted to save it. She told me it was going to take a lot of patience on my side. So she understands the idea. She is also pro marriage which helps. I don't know if it will save my marriage but it's a step forward. At least I'll know i did everything possible to save my marriage. I'm praying for a miracle but I'm ready for whatever comes. Good luck!! And do read a lot here. They all have great infirmation and a wonderful support system. Whether u need information or just need to vent, this is the place for you!! For us!!
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The more I have been reading and looking at counseling, the more I realize that you just don't pick someone because they offer counseling just as you would not go to the yellow pages to select someone for brain surgery.
As counseling has evolved, there are two forms of marriage counseling that are deemed more effective than most. I will write about one then I will post later on the second. The point is that just to go to a counselor and not understand the type of therapy they are going to use is going to confuse you and may actually make things worse.
Traditional counseling has focused on communication skills. Unfortunately, this tends to create two people who can be even better at fighting than before.
EFT therapy is more than just talking about the problem. EFT is about deescalation of the crisis, creating a safe zone for discussions about feelings, and then repairing damaged emotional bonds between the couple. It is based more on research on adult love and childhood bonds. It is not a long term counseling (six months to a year) or 20-40 hours of counseling. However, research has shown that it is 70% effective in improving a relationship as compared to 35% for traditional counseling.
EFT is not simple. The counselor notes body language, listens for issues of trust, feelings, and willingness by both parties to discuss issues. The counselor slowly opens the wounds when she or he determines that the couple is ready to take the next step and feels safe to discuss issues. The goal is to emotionally reconnect the couple not just get them talking to each other again.
In my three counseling sessions, my wife has made three significant shifts, one she said, "I am not going to focus on the past." HUGE for someone who has clutched on to issues that are years and years old. The second came because she had requested to talk to the counselor in private then changed her mind. When asked why she said, "I think that we should not be keeping secrets or make it seem that we are ganging up on Ready. I also know that I need to learn to speak up to Ready." Great! Something I have been desiring for years. If I make you sad, let me know. Smack me on my but and say, "That was not good." Don't suffer in silence while I go on committing the same crime again and again. Finally, she said, "If I did not love Ready, I would not be here." Huge strides in a matter of a few hours of talking.
However, EFT and any other form of therapy is not going to work if the both parties are not ready to change. I also think that you need to work on healing yourself before you can heal your marriage. Then you will be ready to do YOUR work on the marriage and be able to complete change on YOUR part so that you can rebuild yourself and your marriage. Also, EFT and many other therapies tend to lose impact over time. I have realized that we will need to see counseling or weekends from now on to continue to refresh ourselves and keep our marriage intact and well-tended.
((((Hugs))) to you. You have taken a lot of hits in a short period of time. May God's grace heal you and comfort you at this time of need. I agree with the rest- find a new counselor. Why talk to anyone who tells you that "people don't change" if his purpose is to help create change? How about me as a basketball coach telling my players, "I don't even know why we are here. We are going to get beat and beat bad. If I were you, I wouldn't even try."
I will research and post on the other method. Like EFT, it is a very complex behavior model. It has the same results as EFT, but longitudinal studies indicate it has more lasting impact. Have a good day and remember to do one nice thing for you. Rest, eat well, and exercise. The MLCer at home can be really taxing and draining. Detach from his drama and ignore most if not all of his behaviors.
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Nice post, Ready.... I'm convinced!! And knowing your story with your wife, it's amazing that she's responding to your therapy like that.... AMAZING!!
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wow! All the replies made more sense than my therapist's remarks and well-meaning friends and relatives combined. I will seek out a better therapist for myself, perhaps one that uses EFT like readytofix suggested. I also need some time to read all of the articles in this site. The articles I've read so far seems as though someone watched my life and wrote about it. I agree my MLCer's brain is not in any condition to benefit from MC right now. (On another post someone said her H twisted what was said to justify his actions.) My H's two small sessions early on in the MLC were like that as well. I have told him I'm researching the issue however so that when the time is right, we pursue it. For now, i will invest time in reading the rest of the material on this site, which still amazes me. I am now rather secure and at peace (through Grace), a quality my H admires (contrary to what he now realizes was Alienator's desperation). Did I say admires? He doesn't/can't admire. He is too self-absorbed for that. I think rather, he gravitates toward my detached security because it benefits him somehow. So be it. My ex-therapist said his brains were scrambled and "you can't unscramble eggs." I told him, well, "i want to see if I can make an omelet." Thanks to you all, i have alot of reading to do!
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So I am 16 months post BD. Prior to BD, I had to endure a child's cancer diagnosis that turned out to be incorrect, but it took a year to know, a business lawsuit, BD, closing my business as a result of BD and having to ensure health insurance for my cancer kid, getting a new job, negotiating the divorce, my STBX having a heart attack and getting engaged.
Then today I went to see my therapist and complained that he still makes me crazy because he thinks we should be friends, and when I explained some of his erratic behavior, she basically told me that I need to grow up and get over it. She said that we never really had a good marriage and I need to just accept that he left me and be able to co-parent better. Why is it that so many therapists don't get MLC? We exchanged 17 e-mails the other day about when he was going to leave for summer vacation, that's crazy but she said that I obviously was not good at being specific and creating boundaries.
Really, why is this all my fault? That's what he says, but no matter how horrible I was, did I really make him cheat? And with someone halfway across the country, so that he would have to leave his kids, and make him have a heart attack... His family blames me too. Can anyone be that horrible? I guess I need a new therapist, but I had to stop to wonder today, at 16 months, asre most divorced people ready to be best friends?
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Does the other woman know about the frequency of his communication with you?
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His communication with me is not significant, it's only about the kids, and the problem is, it's not communication, it's me pulling teeth. I can't figure out if he really is such a poor planner that he really can't do it, or if he's always trying to hide stuff from me. My only question was really, "when are you leaving on your summer vacation?" And it took 17 e-mails for him to say July 7...
The problem is I don't want him to communicate with me. I don't know how everyone else does it, but I can't handle it. If he wanted out of our marriage, I needed him out. I can only deal with everything I have to do if I don't have to think about him. If I see him or hear his voice, it will make me cry for the rest of the day. I am facing it all, but I can only manage small doses and only when I can handle it. On a good day I can sit by myself in a quiet place and envision a day when we could be friends and picture him with his new wife--the OW--and my kids, and start to let the hurt and anger go, but only when I'm in a good place, otherwise I need to just not think about it, so I can go to work, and try to learn my new job, and be the parent I need to be to my kids, and a good friend and all that other stuff.
I just wrote to complain about my therapist. Is it really realistic to think that 15 months post BD, I should be over him and ready to be great friends with him and the OW?
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I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to discussing various types of therapy as well as the your experiences with specific therapists or types of therapy.
The website below is run by William Doherty. The therapists on the registry are not from one specific branch but rather cover many branches. What brings them together is their attitude toward marriage and marriage counseling.
The National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists (http://www.marriagefriendlytherapists.com/)
This is a page on the site explaining the idea.
What is "Marriage Friendly" Therapy (http://www.marriagefriendlytherapists.com/cfaq.php)
He wrote this article which is posted on the Smart Marriages website. I think this was how I found his work.
HOW THERAPY CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR MARITAL HEALTH
(http://www.smartmarriages.com/hazardous.html)
And here is a link to his book at Amazon.
Take Back Your Marriage: Sticking Together in a World That Pulls Us Apart (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572308796?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwmarriagefr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1572308796)
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Thank you for this posting this important topic RCR. My counselor is not well versed in MLC, but he is marriage friendly. His advise to me from the start has been to "wait", don't rush into anything. He only met my H for two very anger-filled sessions, but in his opinion, my husband doesn't want a divorce (although he filed 2 months after BD/abandonment), instead he wants space. He is Christian-based, and I have found comfort in his analogies from the bible. I do value my counselor's opinion, but not sure I'm getting the degree of help I need.
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Right after BD H and I saw 2 marriage counsellors (the first one was nuts - she spoke for my husband saying things even I knew he didn't believe i.e. he is sorry, he will never do it again and now you need to forget about the affair and concentrate on your marriage... H did say he was sorry to hurt me, NOT that he was sorry about he affair and he also said he "couldn't be sure he wouldn't do it again" ???..and to she told me: "I think you need to concentrate on making him romantic candlelit dinners" Me thinking, "yes that will save our marriage from his infidelity, indecision, desire to run: some candles, flames and food, why didn't I think of that?" Then she pulled out the tarot cards and I knew that she was a quack.
Then saw someone who was very good, wanted us to work it out but saw that H was in a "crisis of some sort", told me I was the strong one and I think knew on some level that his attendance was to make it look like he had "tried" - she was a more traditional psychotherapist.
Then each of us saw individual therapists. I believe that she basically told him that our marriage wasn't making him happy and he had to do what was right for him. Great, tell a man with a wife, two small childre (one under 18 months at the time) that he should do whatever makes him happy. If I was to always make decisions based soley on hedonistic ideas that I thought would make me personally happy, regardless of my responsibilities our children would basically be left with no parents a good portion of the time, being a good partner and parent is about compromise, serious responsibility and sacrifice. Stupid fool. Not that I think he would have stayed without her input, but she certainly did not have our relationship as her central interest. I also think she had a personal agenda as she told me at one point about the fact that she was her partner's second wife and that he spent weekends with his ex and their daugther and ti was all so liberated and fee etc, (so obviously that is the solution for everyone???)
My personal psycho therapist felt that my husband had really betrayed me and family values in a shocking way. As I was seeing her after he had already left, her guidance was really about giving me the tools to rebuild without him and to move forward. I thought she was amazing, although I don't know if she thought that a marriage could be properly rebuilt with this sort of baggage as its foundation and I share her concern regarding that tbh....
So a mixed bag for me, that is for sure...
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StandandDeliver,
Your post made me smile.
I think it was the line about the therapist being a "quack."
In my sitch, my H started seeing an individual counselor right after BD. He, apparently, had kept her name on a piece of paper in his pocket for a year before he went. He chose her, because she was on our health insurance and just down the street from his work address.
Don't think that she helped. I guess that's not true. She helped him validate his feelings "out the door." He heard what he needed/wanted to hear from her. He deserved to be happy. Why had he married me in the first place? He always took the path of least resistance, doing everything everyone else wanted him to do. Not what he wanted to do. He convinced himself that he wasn't a man and would be one, until he left me. Great counseling, huh? I'm not sure if this is exactly what she had said, but it's what he heard. My only true knowledge of what his counselor is like is based upon what the kids told me, after my H took them to see his counselor with him. Apparently, he cried through the whole session, telling the kids that "no one had appreciated him." My D20 said that the counselor looked pretty confused and lost - that she didn't really know what to say or how to handle the session. My D20 said that she didn't care too much for his counselor.
My counselor is pro-marriage. She listens to me and makes suggestions on how I can build a bridge to open communication between my h and me. She doesn't necessarily agree that my H is in MLC. She says that he is definitely in crisis and believes that, due to his drug and alcohol issues at a young age, my H never truly matured. She feels that he is going through the maturing process now. She believes that he will take no action regarding divorce or moving forward. She suggests that I continue to try to build a bridge toward communication - so that, sometime, we could move toward reconciliation. As I said, she is pro-marriage.
She has asked about this forum quite a bit. She thought that the trip to LUX was a great idea and felt that it really helped me.
L
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My therapist is in favour of supporting her patients views of marriage; in other words, if they want to stand, she doesn't tell them not to, and to give up.
She recognises that men (especially) of a certain age often do through a crisis of some sort.
She has taken a reflective role, on how I interract with H, what I expect of him, on the way I protect myself, and work on my own goals in life. She has sometimes suggested alternative ways of looking at things, but has never taken a dogmatic approach.
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After BD I attended a counsellor to help me get my head straight.
She sat there and was as as sad as me that my H had gone and said 'he doesn't sound as if he wants out of the marriage does he?' I had one more session and felt I had more support from my friends so never went back.
xx
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Laursecan
Your counselor doesn't necessarily agree that your husband is in MLC, but thinks he is going through a maturation process right now. That made me smile.....what exactly do many counselors think MLC is if not a process of emotional maturation?
My counselor recognized and even "diagnosed" my ex-wife's MLC.....but he thought she might get through it in a year or less. Not so much.
I don't know if our marriage counselor believed in MLC or not. I kind of felt sorry for the guy a couple of times. He listened as my wife said that our marriage was not bad and that I was a great guy.......and that she wanted a divorce. He wanted to meet with each of us individually, but that's when my wife decided she was done with counseling.
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He listened as my wife said that our marriage was not bad and that I was a great guy.......and that she wanted a divorce. He wanted to meet with each of us individually, but that's when my wife decided she was done with counseling.
DITTO, exactly what was said in my counseling sessions.
Other than making more money I committed no other crimes against the marriage.
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My counselor is pro-marriage. She listens to me and makes suggestions on how I can build a bridge to open communication between my h and me. She doesn't necessarily agree that my H is in MLC. She says that he is definitely in crisis and believes that, due to his drug and alcohol issues at a young age, my H never truly matured. She feels that he is going through the maturing process now. She believes that he will take no action regarding divorce or moving forward. She suggests that I continue to try to build a bridge toward communication - so that, sometime, we could move toward reconciliation. As I said, she is pro-marriage.
She has asked about this forum quite a bit. She thought that the trip to LUX was a great idea and felt that it really helped me.
L
My therapist is not necessarily pro marriage as much as she is pro me. She does agree that my H is in a crisis that agrees with your therapist L, the he will not take any action regarding divorce or moving forward. He is too ashamed and will not admit any wrong doing. I agree! For our entire marriage I have been the problem solver and the fixer. When something needed to be done I did it. She gets the MLC thing and says that while she is not one to put labels on things he is definitely going through "something." She does not feel that my H will come back, just based on what I have told her and what she knows of his personality, albeit through me. But she will also be the first to say "who knows." And that is because since January we have had no real communication. And until that starts to happen nobody will know what could be.
I have an appointment withe her today and I am very glad. After my meltdown yesterday I need to talk. I did have a long conversation with my dad today that just touched my heart. I'll post on my thread. My dad is my HERO!
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L - I thought your trip to Lux was a great idea too - it was fab meeting you!
I guess there are as many opinions and different ideas about psychology in psychology circles as there are in normal life, although I have to mention that I have at least one friend who, in my opinion, was better than any counsellor that I saw (and I did like my last one that I had before I moved a lot!). She had read a lot of Jung and was versed in ideas such as the anima and the shadow self and was the first to identify those elements in my H's behaviour - long before I thought about MLC or found this site. Not only that she has been balanced as I have swayed back and forth between "standing" and moving on. She agrees that I should leave the door slightly ajar for H to give myself options should he ever decide to come back, but she also thinks that I should move on and move forward and be open to new possibilities so that if he ever did come back I would be making a true choice about the person he has become taking into account the new person that I have become through all of this and allowing for the fact that after a certain length of time for healing and reflection etc. there is no reason I should not be open to the possibility of a new relationship with someone who has not been such a profound disappointment in his inability to manage life (as sympathetic as I am to MLC, unlike many MLCer's on here, my H had a pretty charmed life: born with committed parents, no real money problems, emotional and financial support - the crisis seems to have been triggered by the fact that he felt he had surpassed his expectations for his own success and didn't know what his goals for the rest of his life should be. The only "problem" stemming from his childhood really seems to be that at times through his childhood, adolescence and, maybe most importantly, in adulthood he allowed his parents to influence his decisions every step of the way - hadn't cut the apron strings if you see what I mean, so being grown up was an act for him, but he couldn't actually hack having the grown up responsibilies cos he never learned to completely stand on his own two feet. Still, as I am a person from a childhood filled with mental illness and dysfunction who has developed the ability to function nonetheless, I have to say I find his descent into MLC fairly self-indlugent, but perhaps the fact that I disassociated myself from my parents and their decisions early on as they were usually poor, and as someone who did rebel as a teenager and get a bit wild at times, I was a bit better prepared for adulthood?) Ahhh, MLC, I just don't know what to make of it all...
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Oooh, or maybe the problem for H was about not actually ever having any real problems to contend with, so when life got complicated (we didn't have any major problems, but our life was quite complicated and stressful - lots of balls in the air, international lifestyle and 2 very young children). He always knew his parents would bail him out of any difficult situation and even now they are trying to make everything as easy for him as they can - I am not sure whether this helps or hinders or makes very little difference in MLC. OK I am just speculating now and I should be sleeping!!
Goodnight and thanks for the thread RCR, I'll be interested to see other LBS experiences of therapy as it progresses...
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The more I have been reading and looking at counseling, the more I realize that you just don't pick someone because they offer counseling just as you would not go to the yellow pages to select someone for brain surgery.
As counseling has evolved, there are two forms of marriage counseling that are deemed more effective than most. I will write about one then I will post later on the second. The point is that just to go to a counselor and not understand the type of therapy they are going to use is going to confuse you and may actually make things worse.
Traditional counseling has focused on communication skills. Unfortunately, this tends to create two people who can be even better at fighting than before.
EFT therapy is more than just talking about the problem. EFT is about deescalation of the crisis, creating a safe zone for discussions about feelings, and then repairing damaged emotional bonds between the couple. It is based more on research on adult love and childhood bonds. It is not a long term counseling (six months to a year) or 20-40 hours of counseling. However, research has shown that it is 70% effective in improving a relationship as compared to 35% for traditional counseling.
EFT is not simple. The counselor notes body language, listens for issues of trust, feelings, and willingness by both parties to discuss issues. The counselor slowly opens the wounds when she or he determines that the couple is ready to take the next step and feels safe to discuss issues. The goal is to emotionally reconnect the couple not just get them talking to each other again.
In my three counseling sessions, my wife has made three significant shifts, one she said, "I am not going to focus on the past." HUGE for someone who has clutched on to issues that are years and years old. The second came because she had requested to talk to the counselor in private then changed her mind. When asked why she said, "I think that we should not be keeping secrets or make it seem that we are ganging up on Ready. I also know that I need to learn to speak up to Ready." Great! Something I have been desiring for years. If I make you sad, let me know. Smack me on my but and say, "That was not good." Don't suffer in silence while I go on committing the same crime again and again. Finally, she said, "If I did not love Ready, I would not be here." Huge strides in a matter of a few hours of talking.
However, EFT and any other form of therapy is not going to work if the both parties are not ready to change. I also think that you need to work on healing yourself before you can heal your marriage. Then you will be ready to do YOUR work on the marriage and be able to complete change on YOUR part so that you can rebuild yourself and your marriage. Also, EFT and many other therapies tend to lose impact over time. I have realized that we will need to see counseling or weekends from now on to continue to refresh ourselves and keep our marriage intact and well-tended.
I will research and post on the other method. Like EFT, it is a very complex behavior model. It has the same results as EFT, but longitudinal studies indicate it has more lasting impact. Have a good day and remember to do one nice thing for you. Rest, eat well, and exercise. The MLCer at home can be really taxing and draining. Detach from his drama and ignore most if not all of his behaviors.
***Added note, the therapist key in the first sessions is to revisit and validate the emotional bonds that have been damaged. It is then to allow the interactions between both parties to be reconnected. This calming moment is critical to the reconnection process. This allows both to se each other in a vulnerable spot and then reach out to each other to connect emotionally. Once again, EFT is not a simple process to explain and as I research more information, I will post more.
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Ready,
I'm going to put huge disclaimers on what I'm about to write, and say that in NO WAY am I trying to undermine the progress that you have made.
What you say about EFT seems very different from what I read about it.... what I read causes alarm bells to ring. What I read is more along the lines of "this is the cure for everything", which we all know can never be the case. Also, I've not read anything that uses EFT in the context of relationship counselling; what is done here seems to be more on social phobias, etc. But it does seem to attract the new age "this is it" crowd, as well as costing huge amounts of money.....
I am particularly glad that in your case it is getting your wife to open up, because at the end of the day that is what counts.
Now I will also admit to my own particular bias here -- in the 2 years before H left we were both going to see an alternative practitioner whose practice sounds fairly similar to what I read; they, too, claimed to bring people closer together by encouraging you to feel all your feelings, etc. But the effect on us was disastrous (OK, not helped by the practitioner herself turning into the mate predator alienator...). Also financially disastrous, as they charged huge amounts of money and H went on several weekend courses, some costing thousands. And every time I said it didn't seem to be working they just said that the answer was to do more (and pay more...).
I haven't named this therapy; partially to not identify myself (well, I've probably done that anyway), and partially in case others are very into it and it would cause offence -- because I do know people who swear by it.
But I will do so if people think it is worthwhile.
I later researched it a lot (after BD) and found that it falls into the category of "therapy cult". But of course, those who swear by it are adamant that it is nothing of the kind.... Kind of like scientology members insisting their organisation isn't one.
So that obviously colours my thinking about this.
Gotta run; this is an interesting topic.
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Ok, I'll play! :)
After BD, I Googled up something like "How to get my husband back" ( I know, pathetic!) and found Dr. Bob Huizenga and his "Break Free From the Affair" E-book. I paid the very fair fee and downloaded his materials which are excellent... for reconciliation. I still have them and even had a free phone coaching session with him that was very good. I subscribed to his email newsletter and the materials are excellent.... free webinars, etc. However, I knew there was something else going on.
I also had a phone coaching session with a counselor through my workplace... she was warm and kind and non-judgemental and it made me feel better and encouraged me to keep looking for more information...
Then, I found this website and began lurking.... I finally began posting, and then requested coaching from RCR, which was the MOST valuable for teaching me how to accept this MLC process while I was still new... I consider her coaching to have resonated with me as far as communicating with my husband, and he didn't have to be there!
I began attending Al Anon which reinforced all of the information I was getting here....I started posting here and following other people's threads. It was so helpful to have a place to go where there were others like me. I considered this my therapy.
At the same time, my best friend was talking about my sitch with HER therapist, and believe me, they had plenty of opinions on what I was doing wrong... some valid, but without any acknowledgement of MLC. My Mother tried to become my "therapist", as is her M.O., but THIS time, I respectfully asked her to treat me as an adult and allow me to solve my own problems. ;)
My daughter sees a counselor, and in the short time I had to give her an account of what is going on, her eyebrows flew up and she said "so, he's not living with you, but he's never really moved out?" Yep. ;D She didn't say anything about that as her job is to counsel my daughter, but she did seem like she "got it" that this isn't a normal separation leading to divorce situation. I mentioned that I refer to my husband as being depressed and I know that she discussed with my daughter how depression causes people to act really selfish and be unable to think outside of themselves. So, I like her and would see her if I wanted to.
In the future, I expect to attend MC with my husband.... but will only accept a Marriage Friendly therapist.... That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
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Dear T&L,
I am also aware of EFT on phobias. However, this is an entirely different approach to therapy. It is meant to be short term and the therapist is the catalyst to exploring feelings. It is not about just feelings, but slowly peeling back to emotional sore spots to repair the emotional bonds that have been broken during the relationship.
Of course, I think EFT is good to bring the relationship from the brink, but that no matter what therapy is used, the couple needs to return back to therapy after a period of time to refresh and renew those bonds.
Also, the bottom line is regardless of method, it is the combination of therapist, couple, and the commitment of the couples to restoring the marriage.
No issues with the post.
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A good therapist never tells the client what to do. My IC therapist helped me with communication, for example if I wanted to say something to my wife, she would help me phrase the question. However, she never told me what to do with my relationship. Only that when I reached the point that I was done, then I would be done.
She exited me from therapy saying that the problem is no longer with me. That the work we set out to do had been accomplished.
If anyone who has a therapist that insists on telling you the solution to your problem, then they are shortcutting the entire process of being a catalyst of enabling the patient to identify the issues and then come up with their own solutions to the problem that they can live with.
Just my two cents...
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A good therapist never tells the client what to do. My IC therapist helped me with communication, for example if I wanted to say something to my wife, she would help me phrase the question. However, she never told me what to do with my relationship. Only that when I reached the point that I was done, then I would be done.
She exited me from therapy saying that the problem is no longer with me. That the work we set out to do had been accomplished.
If anyone who has a therapist that insists on telling you the solution to your problem, then they are shortcutting the entire process of being a catalyst of enabling the patient to identify the issues and then come up with their own solutions to the problem that they can live with.
Just my two cents...
Add my 2 cents as well to yours... I am kind of new to this mess but not new to therapy and marriage counseling. I've argued no end to get my therapist to tell me what to do and help me make a decision and he won't. After nagging he may give me his best opinion from exhaustion, or to get me to focus on another issue, but his goal is to help me understand my needs, verabalize them and work with the people in my life to achieve what I need, which is understood the needs change and evolve as life situations increase or decrease in stress or happiness, whether marriage, work, other family. Meaning, his goal is to teach me to adapt, not regress to past destructive stress inducing behaviors and focus on my reaction as that is the only thing I can control. Let's face it, who makes any rational decisions when told what to do, how to do it and if you have a knot of stress in your gut, and who can tell you what to do if the aren't living your life, minute to minute.
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I started seeing a therapist in January about 6 weeks before BD. H had been threatening to leave for months but after the New Year he warned me that he was moving out soon and I panicked and tried to find a MC who could maybe save our marriage. I naively thought I could get a quick fix, but instead, I found a therapist who was perfect for me. She is easy to talk to and down to earth but also very honest with me. She has met my H and believes that he is in MLC and that he is not well. She believes in marriage and does not push me to file for divorce or to stop talking about my H. She knows that I need to be able to talk about the craziness and get it all out or I will go crazy myself!
The other day as I was leaving her office, we were chatting and she said that most of her female patients are there to talk about their relationships while the men are there to talk about themselves! LOL!
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I found an excellent theorist last July when I reached rock bottom. I knew I had lots or issues to work on. He helped me face up to things that were holding me back, my beliefs and put them to bed. However when I tried to talk about my ex his reply was always we are here to talk about you not his not his problems.
I talked to a different theorist last week - she told me I needed to put boundaries in place and pug a time limit on it. Not helpful, as my best friend said to me what would be the point. I did find her a bit confusing, she also kept comparing my situation with her own, telling me her husband wouldn't do that and love wasn't enough. I won't be talking to her again
SK x
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SK - extremely unprofessional to discuss her own life with you like that. I had one who did that, she even discussed other people's situations (not using names, but still clients). Awful. See someone else.
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I'm with OP and HB; Counseling in MLC does not work. That does not mean I would not make an attempt if an MLCer is willing--often they will quit after a few sessions. As HB said, these may serve to get the MLCer to think and thus they may plant seeds for later processing
The problem is that MLCers are running from their Shadow and counseling is about facing your Shadow. Counselors will encourage discussion of those things they want to forget--keep suppressed or repressed--and those things to which they are not ready to admit.
When an MLCer who is not ready is forced to look in the mirror it does not cause them to acknowledge and accept their Shadow, it causes them to run away with greater determination.That is why I say that though I feel counseling should be a reconciliation requirement, an LBS may need to wait on the counseling since MLCers may return prematurely and even those who remain at home often return so broken that they are still not yet ready.
I have a question and wonder what the thoughts would be on this.
There seem to be quite a few of us that, in hindsight, recognise that we or our spouses or both, yanked our spouses out of full blown crisis a few years earlier. Only to be faced with a much more severe crisis this time.
My question is this. After that first, comparatively minor episode, when they very much wanted to reconnect and be a part of the family - would therapy possibly have been beneficial then in facing their shadows and halting the need for this major crisis now.
I kind of kick myself that I had no idea what we were all dealing with, and had I known, I would have insisted on therapy at the time. (I know H would have attended, as he was so keen to keep his family back then).
Or ...... would it still have been a waste of time, given the denial in our spouses personalities and their upbringings and their historic ways of doing things? What does everyone think?
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Kikki, I said pretty much the same thing about 9 months ago as well as whether my husband was in a 2nd crisis or was it a continuation of the first with a break in between for good behaviour. I also used the words 'I am kicking myself'. The advice I was given was not to worry too much about this as it is now important to look forward, which is what I have been doing.
With hindsight I think my husband did have long periods of clarity; however, I don't think he was ever really out of crisis. He certainly could not face anything he did in the first episode. I guess he was still running away.....
Maybe counselling would help; however, I don't think standard MC or IC could get to the root causes here. Maybe something like psychotherapy. Then again, I really don't know.
So back to what I was told. It doesn't really matter. We can only deal with where we are today and look forward.
One day maybe there will be answers to help others coming behind us.
In the meantime, you are doing really well and I like reading your posts.
Crazystuff
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Crazystuff
Thanks for your thoughts. I too think that my H probably was the same - he also found it really difficult to face what he had done in his first crisis but had long periods of 'good behaviour' in between.
Looking back, I think his emotional growth halted about ten years ago. Hmmm, not good.
I agree - it isn't worth pondering this for ourselves, but I was thinking more of those coming in behind us.
This is getting more and more prevalent, and I kind of feel that we are all 'ahead of our time' in a way. Quietly battling (in a calm way :) ) behind closed doors when society is telling us to do the opposite. Never an easy thing to do.
Thanks CS, you are also doing really well, and I too love reading your posts
K
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H
In the early days of our R when my H told me that his father had run away with a neighbor's wife and abandoned H's mother and H and his siblings, I gently suggested that he might benefit from therapy. He quickly responded that he had "no deep seated emotional issues." Ha! At BD when I asked that we go to MC, he said he would "only be going through the motions" and refused. He did say that he was immediately going into IC. I saw that as a positive at first, since I know he indeed has "deep seated emotional issues." Who doesn't?
It's been 9 mos since BD and he refuses to see me or talk to me (we live quite near each other). His C suggested he send me letters (snail mail). He just announced in his latest letter that he is filing for divorce. His C has a website where she says she helps couples. I even offered to see his C with him. What kind of IC lets an obviously depressed and troubled person divorce their spouse without a conversation? I am appalled! But to be fair, I don't know what he is telling her or what she is saying to him. Divorce, as we are all well aware, is life-changing. Why take that course if you don't have to?
Me
After the shock and trauma of BD I immediately went back to an IC I had seen years ago about some family stuff not involving my H. She has been great for getting me through the PTSD of BD and its aftermath. She (and this site) have helped me find myself again. She knows about my stand but keeps telling me things like "I think you have outgrown him" and "You must face the fact that he is not the person you thought he was" etc., etc. I believe her unstated but rather obvious objectives are 1) to get me to focus on me (great!) and 2) to get me to forget about my H and find someone else (not so great). I really do believe she does not believe he is in MLC and will come out of it, but that this is who he is and I was just mistaken that he was a kind, loving, respectful, and devoted partner. The scary thing I, I am starting to believe that she is right! But I have considered switching therapists. I mean, she says she can't diagnose someone she never met, but then makes all these statements about him. I am very confused as to whether to believe my heart (somewhere deep down in there he still loves me) or my C (he is very, very, troubled and I shouldn't want him).
Birdhouse
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Birdhouse - I'd go with your gut instinct every time ........ Trust that, not your head and what someone else is filling it with :)
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Oh I actually need to point out some MAJOR things.
When a person goes to counseling, in order for there to be any personal progress they have to actually be there with the intention of facing themselves and doing the work! A person can absolutely go to therapy and have their behind end in a chair week after week...listen to talk and even talk back...and then go home and do absolutely none of it at home. Now that is a great big waste of money to pay someone $100 or more to do nothing, but hey! This way they can tell themselves something like "Well I went to counseling and nothing changed! It wasn't me--it was YOU!" So if the intention is not to take personal responsibility and find out what you can do differently ("How can I change me?") then no amount of therapy will amount to a hill of beans!! You know this person better than anyone on the planet or in the world...and even YOU can not "make" your spouse do anything. They have to choose to do it!!
Second, when a person is in MLC and they go to a counselor, it may start off with "Well he/she does THIS and he/she does THAT and then I feel THIS and I do THAT...." but if the counselor is worth anything they'll turn the sessions around to have the counsel-lee address what THEY do or say. But in the meantime, counselors aren't mind readers. If you had a lady come to you who said her husband was a monster who screamed at her for hours late into the night, and threw things, and stood in the doorway forcing her to not leave -- would you jump to the conclusion he is abusive or maybe agree with her that she needs to leave (for her safety)? Ah! But she conveniently forgot to tell you that he screamed at her for hours late into the night the night he found her in bed with another man. And that when he found them having sex, he threw his wedding band at her. And that when she packed her things to "run away" he blocked the doorway so she wouldn't leave her family. So see how what I mean? Just because a person goes to counseling does not mean that the counselor is a magician and can "see the truth" or can "make the marriage better." The fact is, your spouse may be bound and determined to avoid themselves and wreck the marriage!
In summary, in order for counseling to ever be any good, the person going has to have the attitude "What I've been doing hasn't been working and I need to change something about me. What can I learn and do differently?" And in this instance that would apply to Christian believers, non-christian, agnostics or anyone.
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amen, affaircare.
Too add, anyone new here taking their MLC spouse to therapy, be careful and listen to all this good advice the amazing people here are sharing...
in my situation, I thought my prayers were answered when I got my ex (then wife) to go to MC. Thrilled that we were going to 'work on the marriage' I was given restrictions on the way there (don't tell her about this/that) then when we were given some tasks to complete by the following week, It came down to lets just say we did them. We stopped going (since I uncovered her affair and she said we wanted a divorce). But, since we went to marriage counseling, she began using that as justification. Here, she had told family members that WE agreed to a divorce and that we went to marriage counseling to make sure we couldnt save our marriage. Its a common trap. Also, there should be no affair partner in the picture when you go to MC - and a good MC wont bother with you if there is.