Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Standing in Patience on August 07, 2011, 07:47:18 AM
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Am curious, when have you used as truth darts? Was it helpful?
Admittedly, I have been responding to his very infrequent emails, texts, phone calls with my hopes of reconciliation, suggesting that he is having a mlc, listening to his rewriting of history (h keeps saying I'm rewriting history), saying the children are adapting well to the situation (they aren't; they are just coping).
I am afraid of monster and also the possibility that it has or will further cement his justification of abandoning his wife, children and family and/or that he will stay in the tunnel longer.
Yes, yes, I am doing better now and mostly dim/dark except for children and finances. But I would like to respond with truth darts. I really would like to be able to walk the fine tightrope properly. Or is it too late? Maybe I should have done it all along? Suggestions?
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Hi Standing,
You and I are about on the same timeline. My BD was May of 2010.
Truth darts.....hmmmmm. Yes. I threw some. Early on....when my H and I were actually talking. No. We weren't actually talking. I was begging and pleading and trying to convince him of the errors of his ways. He would stay on the phone (I can't really understand why) - most likely - convincing himself how right he had been to get away from me. These "conversations" were truly a waste of time...and got nowhere.
Actually, I think it was too early for me to be throwing any truth darts. Just as it is too early for you....in my opinion. Truth darts are for later (I think) when they are starting to have some moments of clarity and they are open for a truth dart - here or there.
When you respond to his texts or attempts at communication - do not suggest he is having an MLC. Stay away from that subject like the plague. Do not lie to him.....telling him that they children are adapting well to the situation. You don't need to lie about this. If he asks how they are....just merely say "It's tough...but they are coping." But, only if he asks. Don't offer it.
Try not to worry about cementing his justification of abandoning his wife and kids. Honestly, I don't think they need any help with that one. I haven't said "boo" to my H in over 6 months (only responding, when he contacts) and he's still "mad" at me. Honestly, he's still mad at himself.....just doesn't want to admit it.
Your h will get through the tunnel at his own (snail's) pace. Sorry about that. It drives me crazy, too, if I allow it to. It's just the way it has to be.
Regarding truth darts.....there will be time for that. Trust me on this one. When it comes to MLC....that's one thing that there is plenty of....TIME. Don't worry that it is too late.
Just understand, your Truth Darts will not help guide him through the tunnel ANY faster. Honestly, even though they deserve a few truth darts....here and there....it is better if they come from a different source than their LBS. (That doesn't mean you should plant truth darts from other sources). Trust me.....there are other people in the world who look at your H and think "WTF?" Some maybe even close enough to him to ask him. He will, most likely, avoid them - after they ask him....but, deep down inside, it will be there eating at him. It's like an Intervention for an addict or alcholic. No intervention is a failure. Even if the alcoholic runs away and denies he/she has a problem......the truth darts they get are still there....deep inside....eating at them. (Interventions are usually moderated by dis-interested 3rd parties.....with family and friends in attendance - but who actually say very little).
If you want to throw a truth dart in....here or there....think it through really carefully. If it pops into your head - in response to something he has said or done....most likely - you shouldn't say it. He doesn't trust what you think or say right now, anyway.
Take care.....just understand that you are not keeping him or helping him through the tunnel. He's really got to navigate this one...all by himself.
Hugs,
L
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Dear SIP,
I threw so many truth darts at my H during BD2 at Easter that he probably looked like a piece of swiss cheese!!! Did it do any good? Absolutely not... :( These were truths that any person would have taken on board e.g. I wanted H to tell me he'd made a 'mistake' would he? No... of course if he'd been coming back to make our marriage work, he would of course have said he'd made a mistake and that he loved me more than anything else in the world... He didn't..... :'( I think the truth darts we throw are from our perspective of hurt, betrayal and total frustration... but if they knew the "truths" that were were saying, THEY would be saying them to us not us to them? I hope that makes sense...especially from me...had a really bad weekend and missed him an awful lot...why? "Truth" is I don't know....
Truth - is perception of a given situation - one person sees it one way, one person another....I think at the moment our H's don't want to see the truth of what they have done to us as that would cause them pain and they certainly don't put themselves in the way of guilt, pain or remorse.....
Sorry SIP - I'd throw a shop full of darts if it would make my H "wake up" and see the "truth" of what he's done to me, his lovely Son and to himself...
Love and hugs
Fox xxx
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SIP
This is simply my perspective.....
I think many times the motivation behind truth darts is one of two things. The LBS is either defending themselves, or hoping the MLCer will "see" the error of their ways. If it's the latter, the hope is there that the MLC nightmare will just end.....the MLCer will "wake up". I have talked to several LBS after they have thrown a truth dart or two.....and it seems the LBS in many cases have been more frustrated after throwing them.....because the MLCer either dismisses them, or goes into Monster. As I've read many times on another site, "MLC is not a short term issue."
Here is a good reminder from the article on Acceptance.
"If your goal is speed, it will fail. But most of you will need to learn that through experience."
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L and F,
Thank you for responding. Today I am having a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" moment. What if I could have gone back in time and rescripted my responses the h much better and in the right older. Could have stopped the EA from going to PA (I know better but maybe there was an iota of a chance)? Would he not run or perhaps a better word is 'escaped"?
L, sorry I wasn't clearer before, it was h saying that the children are doing better after h separated from us. Yes, there was less anger, tension in the house. I believe now it was h way of justifying his action to leave. He had to create the situation to give himself enough pressure to "move" on his beliefs.
I sense some feelings of guilt on his part (little a tiny little voice tells me this when I hear the tone in his speech and emails/text) now. I want to tell him that he can open up to me but I doubt now is a good time to do this. I believe needs to feel ready and to hopefully tell me down the road life is not all blissful being on the other side of the country without your wife and children. But right....it's still all about him.
Thank you all for being there for each and all of us. I wish I meet you all before.. before we needed to know and understand the mlc does exist. I only wish my h went the toupee, red convertible, skydriving route. Really, I think I would have gone mad by now without you all here. Just knowing there are others in similar yet infinitely unique unto their own situations keeps me calm and not lamenting to the children about this unbelievable sitch. Sorry we are all in this together. But if I can help just one other LBS out there, then I have done one good deed today.
I was saved at 13, lapsed for many years but now comforted to know He is with me now and always. He is there with me morning, noon and night (and even during the wee hours in the morning when I should be sleeping but praying).
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Hi Foxberry ~ I totally agree with what you said about perception. My H has said a couple of times, he sees things one way and I see it another. My way is right of course because what he is saying is a lie. He is trying to justify to himself what he has done and blaming me for it all. I'm not saying I don't have things to work on for myself because I do but the things he comes out with are not true. Our H's don't want to see the truth because they have betrayed us and so my H made up all these lies about me. And I truly think he believes those lies now. When he does this to me, that makes me throw truth darts right back at him but it gets us no where. We are both just angry. So that is what I am working on now with myself. I need to stop reacting and just tell him I am sorry he feels that way.
A couple of months ago I had told my H that he has issues from his childhood that he needs to face. I got no reaction at the time but last week when we got into an argument that he started, you know, the blame game as to why he left, he actually brought up that comment I made. He said, well you said I have issues from my childhood. I said you do. It was like he was kind of telling me he kind of knew it. He definately has him thinking about it.
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Standing,
Sorry if I mis-understood.
I think, what I read from your posts, is that you still believe that YOU can help him.
I get that.
I feel the same way...many times.
If only....my H trusted me. If only....my H would "listen" to me. I understand more about what he is going through than he does. Right?
Actually, if I truly believe that.....I understand nothing.
We cannot be our spouses "savior." They write about being the lighthouse. Being the beacon that they MLCer is attracted to. (I don't feel too much like a beacon right now. If my MLCer is attracted to me.....I don't see it. I don't feel it).
We are not meant to be their saviors.
They can only save themselves.
I think, sometimes, what you are alluding to. If only I had been more aware of what was going on. If only I knew then what I know now. If only I had reacted in a different way....maybe he wouldn't have "fallin in love" with someone else.
Rubbish! Absolute rubbish!
There's nothing you could have done. Nothing you could have said. I know that you really don't believe that you could have kept the EA from becomming a PA! These are things that are not within your control. None of these things were caused by you. Nothing that you could have done about it.
I think you may still believe that you have some culpability in your H's MLC.
Do not allow this thinking to get into your head!
Did we do things that may have lead to the demise of our marriage. Sure! We are human, after all. But, rest assured, much of what your H is going through is due to things he experienced WAY before he met you (unless you met at 2 years old).
If he had married someone else.....he'd still be in MLC. He missed some major portion of his maturing process.
One truth dart I threw at my H (back in February, when I found out about his EA/PA???).....I told him. If he had married and divorce me, back when he was 20 years old - and then married his first wife......and had 3 kids and a mortgage.....he would have contacted ME - just like he contacted her. The only difference is/was that I would never have gotten involved with a married man. (And I would be on my second divorce - either). Who knows if that made any sense to him.
Believe me when I say this. This is not your fault. There was/is nothing you can do (or could have done) to change ANYTHING regarding your H's MLC. Nothing.
There isn't a right word, or action, that you can take that can move him along the tunnel any faster. (You can, though, interfere and delay the trip).
I think the longer the MLCer can focus on the LBS being the cause of their unhappiness...the longer they can avoid facing reality. So, I stay out of it. I do nothing. I let him be.
Hope this helps.
L
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Limitless,
Brilliant response as per usual! I actually read your post and tried to apply it to me...really helps to know that even if I hadn't said this, or done that, or argued, shouted, reasoned, cried, begged, or behaved in a more concillatory manner etc., etc., it wouldn't have stopped H seeking this OW out and having an affair....???
I do STILL struggle with that I'm afraid...I actually believe that if I'd been more ego stroking, more adoring and had more intimacy (as he put it) with H ::) then maybe he wouldn't have gone looking for 'it' elsewhere??? Am I wrong to think this? I don't know, I do know that H has done an extremely good job on me of making me feel a failure and that he is much happier and fulfilled now with his new family and his new life..... :-\
Struggling...but sending lots of love to you
Fox xx
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You know, regarding truth darts, I was told I threw one the other day. I had sent an email to H telling him I was grateful for all the hard work he did to support me and the kids. I didn't see it as a truth dart, just a seed. Planted, I hope, in fertile ground to grow and mature later.
I did mean it. He's taken good care of us. I was surprised when he responded via email "no problem", but even more surprised when he brought it up again on the phone later that night, thanking me for the "nice email".
Right now, I'm so sick and tired of the 800 lb gorilla in the room with us all the time (OW, hee hee), so I've just decided to keep it light and kind. I'm working on not analyzing every little thing that happens, hind sight will be a better indicator, anyway. I've got my suspicions, but that's really all they are. I'm going forward with eyes open, and ears shut (as he lies like a dog), and coming to terms with the reality that my old M is dead, and I've got to live every moment for me and my kids, and let him flap in the wind till he figures himself out. He doesn't need me telling him he's being an a$$, I can see he knows that. He's obviously stressed, moreso than before BD. He doesn't need me telling him that either.
I would say, if the topic comes up and you aren't in the middle of a huge fight, go ahead and toss a little one and see where it takes you. But the moment has to be right. A truth dart thrown in anger will likely turn around on you. Just my $0.02.
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Truth - it is a pain as it is in the eye of the beholder. I know my truth is completely different from H in many ways. That's what often caused conflict when we were together. I am able to swallow my pride and see that some of my behaviours def contributed to our marriage difficulties. However, my H is very manipulative. He is an excellent wriggler. He tried to persuade me the affair isn't really one 'cos he'd already left and it just happened... that, my friend def needed a wapping great reality check truth dart. So I retorted with something like "hmmm....I don't know anything that just happens. All I know is in order for it to happen someone has to do something. So, you are responsible for your bit." That caused more uncomfortable shifting but in the end, he owned up! x
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Asking How and When to give truth darts = walking on eggshells. Every individual is different, you know your partner better than anyone else. If the flow of the conversation goes there then do it. If it never goes there don't initiate. The way I look at it is... truth darts are thrown for your own space. Don't throw it and hope they immediately realize (wake up) that what their doing is wrong. Besides a true measurement of whether you are detached or not is noticing that you can converse with them without the fear of losing them, or the fear that they may think that you are over them.
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I think they can help and they can hurt.
It's all about when and how you aim them.
Tiny ones during monster...if any.
Larger ones as they go through the tunnel. If they are receptive.
I do agree that sometimes we send them just for our own venting.
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Truth Dart: A short statement that cuts through an MLCer’s confusion and chaos, planting the seed of a question in their mind.
These are some of the hardest thing to come up with. What to say, how to say it, when to say it... And the contexts are so varied. In the Truth Dart (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/truth-darts/) article I wrote for the blog I gave some examples, but they are really basic and they don't cover a variety of contexts. So I thought a thread where people could simply list statements for general or specific context and where people can request statements might be helpful.
Also use this thread for other communication tools--one-liner type things rather than essays about... So Mirroring or Ericksonian Language Techniques. (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_planting-seeds_change-your-language.html)
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A few truth darts I have tried:
The things you yelled at me sounded conflicted. How is guilt contributing to your anger? EFFECTIVE
Your choices are your responsibility, just as my choices are mine. EFFECTIVE
I don’t trust some of what you say right now, but I do trust that the good and kindhearted person I married is still inside you, and that s/he still has the same values. EFFECTIVE
You have always been a kind and decent person and I trust you will make this right for our marriage and our family. TOO SOON TO TELL WHETHER EFFECTIVE
You're attractive and there may always be someone willing to hook up with you for a while, but there won't always be someone willing to love and support you for a lifetime. TOO SOON TO TELL WHETHER EFFECTIVE
Until we deal with our individual issues, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes in any future relationship. TOO SOON TO TELL WHETHER EFFECTIVE
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I can write one of mine. My S ask me something about Physics problem. And I was glad to help him. Anyway he have bad habit trying to defend self by rationalization never mind how bad his defense is. So, I ask him: "Why You defend self so desperately ? It is much simple and easy admit that You was wrong." So we talk and talk, and I am trying to make him explanation that nobody is perfect and that anyone can make mistake. And that he should not have any problem admit mistake. "What will happen to You if You admit mistake ?" After long convo I said to him: "It is much easier blame everyone else then self. On that way You will be always right and whole world around You will be wrong. Pour me." Something like that.
My W carefully listen what we talking about browsing internet on tablet. After I said bold text she get me MONSTER look and said nothing. Very nice indirect dart of truth launch.
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I tried to tell him that "freedom", in the sense of having no responsibility, is unattainable when you are middle-aged, when you have kids, have a family, have a job. I quoted Janice Joplin at him: "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose."
I think that one really hit home because he looked really impressed and asked me when I thought of this, and I just laughed and told him that it is from a song.
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"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose."
This could be the best truth dart of all time!
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I like that one too! I will have to remember that one the next time my H brings up his "freedom." One truth dart I used on my H was "if she will cheat with you, she will cheat on you." I got the deer in the headlight look, like the light bulb went off in his head. We shall see what happens.
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Chris Christopherson
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There seems to be some confusion you have two choices.
You can deliver the furniture to the garage or I'm coming up there to get it and the Troopers are coming with ME" EFFECTIVE
Don't show up at the apartment I'm living at or on my apartment I own or I'll have you ARRESTED! So far EFFECTIVE
Don't have anything else sent to my address in the Mail for you that's addressed to me or I'm KEEPING it. So far EFFECTIVE
At the end of the clearly typed out email I sent him back in JULY I said;
Then YOU can STOP emailing ME.
As the first time when the intial BD happened he said I was the one who emailed him all the time :o :o :o WOW
I'm telling you if you respond to them at ALL before it's done it was YOU that was chasing them. You have to be flat out rude and I did NOT want to do that the first time.
He didn't wait 5 seconds for me to reply to an email or anything else.
The 3 rule is EFFECTIVE 3 hours, 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years , NEVER -WHATEVER.
HE KNEW HE HAD ME RIGHT WHERE HE WANTED ME..Scared to DEATH I was going to LOSE HIM.
NOW he's lost me instead...
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We were having one of the horrible conversations my H cycled through about every three months it seemed, when he was telling me all that was wrong in his life. After he got done blaming our marriage which had been "bad for years," his job, his family, my family, my friends from college (REALLY? :o), etc., on and on and on, I finally just looked at him and said, "Did it ever occur to you that the problem may not be every thing else in your life but maybe something within you?" I don't know whether it was effective or not, but it did stop the tirade. If I am remembering correctly (and not sure I am), this was the last time I heard all of that, which was about 11 months ago now.
His fog is clearing at times and I am throwing a few more things in here and there. Some seem to hit the mark.
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"Did it ever occur to you that the problem may not be every thing else in your life but maybe something within you?"
Oh NO! You didn't suggest that did you? He's alright... it's the WORLD that's all wrong! ::)
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Oh wow trusting! I am sooo going to remember that one! I need to start writing these little nuggets down!!
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New Ways of Communicating = Keep mouth shut! :) :) :)
LISTEN!
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When I saw your name I KNEW THAT"S WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY..or type anyway ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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OP is right. I need to listen to you, OP. I will keep my mouth shut. <sigh>
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Good luck with that CT- ;D ;D ;D ;D
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New Ways of Communicating = Keep mouth shut! :) :) :)
LISTEN!
You know there is nothing to listen to with a vanisher, don't you? ;)
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Truth darts are definitely something to use very sparingly or they lose any effectiveness they might possibly have.
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Well one thing that somewhat worked with the mlcer I was dealing was I didn't say anything for a REALLY long time..then when I actually said something he listened.
But it had to be SHORT and to the point...but if he rambled on and on for HOURS that was supposed to be OK.. ::) I mean really He LOVED to hear the sound of his own voice I think. IF I wanted to go into any details he'd yell " GET TO THE POINT!"
Sometimes some things don't make any sense without details..so I'd get to the point with some stories and he'd look at me like "HUH?" and I'd say " You didn't want the details so there's the point"
No making them happy even communicating became such a chore it wasn't worth it.
So OP's method might be just great .....but if nobody's talking ..who's listening??
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Well one thing that somewhat worked with the mlcer I was dealing was I didn't say anything for a REALLY long time..then when I actually said something he listened.
This has also worked with mine. And mine last year was even able to listen and talk for about an hour or so and even called back because he had a costumer to attend. He clearly was interested.
So OP's method might be just great .....but if nobody's talking ..who's listening??
Nobody? Or maybe silence is, in itself, a method of communication? It may mean there is nothing to be said or that people are thinking/processing. Or course if people are not talking there may be no way to know which one it is.
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Or course if people are not talking there may be no way to know which one it is.
No kidding... so then we're supposed to be mind readers? And all the silence for me was was TENSION. NOT PEACE.
So it got nowhere fast. Like enough time will pass and I'll forget ALLLL about it. Time passing in silence; made it WORSE not better.
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No kidding... so then we're supposed to be mind readers? And all the silence for me was was TENSION. NOT PEACE.
Yes, I think so, we are supposed to be mind readers... ::) ::) ::) Or our MLCer, if we are the ones not taking to them. But, after a while, some of us get used, and start to enjoy, maybe even too much, the silence.
For me the silence is peace and I do (over?) enjoy it. Not to have to listen to an erratic, makes no sense, only says absurd things man or not to have to deal with monster is a bless.
I only talked to mine last year because my lawyer asked me to. Don't have much of a wish of have to talk to him this year. Not that last year he has been rude, he wasn't. But what else is there to say? Nothing.
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Well I have peace now because I'm not listening to him. And I cannot tell you how good it feels. I wouldn't trade this for anything. I finally do have peace. ( big yawn)
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in it: you would be proud of me! The last couple of times that I have talked to H, I haven't said anything about our R, OW, or anything having to do with our current situation. I just listen to him go on and on about work (yawn!), then we will discuss my job, the kids, mutual friends, etc. And that's about it. I am used to the silence at home, as he was always gone when he WAS here. He was usually down at the shop working on something for someone else instead of spending any time at home with me. :(
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VERY GOOD CT
As long as you have enough strength to do it...do not let it sap your strength. Expect setbacks..come back from those and you will get stronger.
They are like kriptonite to superman.. ( not OUR Superman of course ;) )
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They are like kriptonite to superman.. ( not OUR Superman of course ;) )
Definitely not OUR Superman who paints fairy footprints on his gorgeous girl's leg in glitter nail polish ;) He's indestructible! :)
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When H returned from his holiday with OW and told me what he had done whilst away,
I said " have you any idea how absurd you sound coming back return to the marital home and telling your wife of 25 years about your holiday with your bit on the side?
EFFECTIVE!
I am also using the reflecting technique my T has suggested as that seems to be a good way of turning comments back on him for him to hear himself..
As happened to me H sobbing and saying "I'm sorry at what I have done to you and the kids.
Reflecting that is to say " I hear you H, saying sorry at what you have done to me and the kids."
Repeat if necessary.
Unfortunately this happened before my therapist's suggestion so unable to confirm its effectiveness but makes sense.
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I believe it depends on the type of MLCer your dealing with.........when my h left again.........he spewed monster at me..........the things he said were worse than ever.........i reacted but let me tell you ..........my h knew i was not messing ..........i think somewhere along the line everything as to come out..........i also believe that h knew deep down everything i said was the truth...........after i had finished with the harpoons and they were mighty big my h said he would never speak to me again.........i told h that if the truth hurt him so much then maybe he needed to understand why.......i told him if he felt that me defending myself against lies stopped him talking to me then to go ahead........but that i would not be disrespected by him no more..........and its better that whilst hes still with her that he not involve me in their drama..................this was in July.......... we have since attended my D graduation he acted like he always as with me.............i then went dark until about 3 weeks ago where h tells me he misses talking to me.............back when h came home in the beginning of July.................he repeated many things I had said to him to o/w things like ..........my wife is innocent shes done nothing wrong..........other things like i can talk to my wife she understands me, where you o/w do not.......he even went on to say to o/w that our R (mine and H's) was better than it had ever been til she o/w had come along...........she screamed at him and said so your blaming me...............i said to h when he told me this i said then why do this and especially with a dysfunctional o/w he replied i don’t know im trying to understand that myself............i told him you both mirror each other ..........you was as messed up as her when you met that’s why you chose her....... so many of the darts/harpoons do register it just takes time for them to be able to process them xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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.he repeated many things I had said to him to o/w things like ..........my wife is innocent shes done nothing wrong..........other things like i can talk to my wife she understands me, where you o/w do not.......he even went on to say to o/w that our R (mine and H's) was better than it had ever been til she o/w had come along...........she screamed at him and said so your blaming me...............i
He told you all this?? :P Wow. That's bizarre.
Here's a truth dart, I used recently. H is now cordial mode so it wasn't difficult to say it calmly, but he seemed to be listening, and I was referring to something that in Monster mode made him furious. Here it is, folks:
"I'm sorry, but that just isn't true."
We Brits say sorry all the time, as you know, so that "I'm sorry" bit isn't as apologetic as it sounds. It's just polite.
;D
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Hi UKS - I've used that but slightly differently
"I'm sorry you feel that way but you know it isn't true!"
It worked as far as my H is concerned at that time.
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After months of being told it is all my fault...during one of our phone conversations ...i said ..
" u are creating an emotional disconnect between us bc of the third person you've brought into the marriage so stop playing the victim ...u are the perpetrator...not the victim."
H immediately disconnected ...did not like to hear the TRUTH.
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Hi SongandDance
The simple negation of their weird reality works well sometimes, doesn't it? :)
LBS - I think you blinded him with sheer well-informed science there!