Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: LisaLives on September 18, 2011, 06:54:57 AM
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I wanted to check on Syn's thread, and saw that there had been a major hikack. She says i her thread that she is leaving the community because she does not feel welcome here any longer as a stander, due to the presence of so many people here who have chosen to stand down. I copied a post by FTT because she raised a topic I have thought about raising for a couple months now, but did not know how, and then she said it ever so eloquently.
This board is young and as it "grows up" even RCR has said that she does not expect most people will have the courage to stand forever. I don't think anyone here has been antagonistic, or against standers, but as the community matures, there will be lots of growth and change in people and situations. Most people started here as standers, is it fair to tell them that when they stand down, they have to leave--are you not friends with people who dropped out of college, or high school? Do they not have lots to teach you even though your paths may have differed? Anyway, I'm babbling and FTT said it so well...
This is a journey and no one can predict what is around the bend. The beauty of this journey is that groups of us started together and we have moved along the way, but even though on the same timeline, each of us has had a different experience. I think that there is something to do with the timing of the board´s existence and the the forks in the road that some of us have encountered. I don´t think any of us would want to dissuade another from standing. You´ve got to realize that if someone stands down, it is only b/c something utterly awful has occurred (a drastic one time event or repeated horrible events) and that folks on here RELY on their travel mates for support EVEN if they chose to stand down. To ask someone to leave the forum for having reached the end of a different rope would be cruel.
When I first joined the forum I was in physical pain from the heartache (they don´t call it an ache for nothing). I could not absorb
Stayed´s advice. After a time, I took up her 3 month rule. I am now 19 months since BD1 but it was getting bizarro since 2008 and I think he had some sort of dalliance in 2006, so for Pete´s sake, people come here for support. Please make them welcome and know that standing down comes with sorrows of its own. I think there is value in keeping the members no matter which way they go. For me, it gave me strength to know that the folks who ended up divorced did NOT curl up in a ball and retire to the corner. We do need to know that one can rebuild a life. There is hope in that as well.
There is an ENORMOUS difference in the emotional state of the LBSer at 3, 6, 9, 12, 18 months in on the journey. Accept that if you are behind someone else´s timeline that you too will experience changes. Thankfully, the majority of those changes are for the betterment of you. The crappy circumstances tend to remain in place but YOU will grow enough on the inside to frame them differently. THAT is the benefit of having long term members, no matter the outcome.
Yes, RCR has the goal of preventing the pattern of divorce and power to her for doing a Herculean effort in putting this site together. I have met some of the most amazing people who I would otherwise never have met. I also believe that RCR put this site together to support the LBSer. That is why I remain.
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I would hope that all would stay.
You just never know... some of the marriages of the "non-standers" may be the ones to reconcile.
Just because the stander has "moved on" doesn't mean the Lord is done working in the situation.
Bob and Charlyne were divorced. I know several marriages restored after divorce.
We all have things to teach and learn.
I also personally think that some of the people "not standing" are just standing farther away...
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LIW,
What a very nice way to put it.
Non Standers just may be Standing further away.
I guess I go back to the article RCR wrote regarding "it doesn't matter what you do." (DGU - I know that you know of which one I speak).
The MLCer is on their journey....it's going to take whatever time it's going to take. What is there for an LBS to do? There is nothing we can do to hurry it along....although there seems to be some truth that an LBS who is unaccepting of the process may delay it......
We are guided to live like they are not coming back, self focus, GAL, work on forgiveness and such. What more can we really do? For those of you who have regular contact with your MLCers - you walk the tightrope of being kind....and potentially becoming a doormat. For those of you who have little to no contact with your MLCer - you wonder, is this it?
All we can do is the best we can, with the knowledge that we have. Standing or not....we have to make ourselves a new life - one that will fulfill us, with or without our spouses.
I hope for a reconciliation someday.....maybe it will happen. It doesn't seem that it will be any time soon. (I know OP - that is an expectation).
I guess we need to understand that everyone - Standing or not - whose live has been impacted by MLC can gain something from this site...and, on the other hand, also has something to add to this site. Whether or not we all Stand in the "right way" (whatever that is) or not.
Limitless
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I think it is useful to see how the journey plays out for everyone tbh. As long as we can be supportive of others choices and still true to ourselves and our own mental health. I know that I cycle (like a MLCer) and I have days when I feel done. And I suppose sometimes I am looking for validation even though I know that there are no guarantees. There are never any guarantees in life, but at some point we have to trust other people! The problem is that trusting our MLCer is not an option, unless we accept that they KNOW what they are saying about now and the future and then we need to trust that our marriages are over because they said so and we trust them.
It is a messy business and the similarities between us LBS's are the glue that keeps us together;the similar experiences, the fact that we all love our MLCers but have been devastated by their actions - often actions that harm our children too. But we need to accept and acknowledge the vast differences we encounter too. We have different cultural expectations, different geographies, different personalities, different perspectives, different MLCers! We come from different family backgrounds and have had different life experiences and different marriages - these inform the different ways that we approach our lives. We are all trying to learn about ourselves, about what makes us ticks and to some degree we all start this "standing" business as relative strangers to ourselves and in positions of emotional weakness, (i felt that for me, that feeling of helpless weakness also allowed me touch on the truth of myself - the raw, naked truth of myself, my beauty, my ugliness), which we try to build from to make ourselves better, stronger and more self-aware. But for many of us, this growth is not linear, it is full of ups and downs and tangents. So, I think this forum, as it grows, should be able to encompass us as we all do our best to become the best people we can be, ultimately with our without our MLCer.
I have learned that anger is not "bad", it is necessary. It becomes bad when we let it define us or we hold onto it without letting it go. But it is healthy to have some anger at our sitch's our spouses etc. It is healthy to question our stands from time to time. No?
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OK he is my 2 peneth or 2 cents for our over seas friends or 2 whatever it is in OZ ha ha.
I think this whole thing has become a "Im right and you're wrong kind of thing", which is so not how it is or how it should be.
I have made every mistake in the book...I have been hard , soft, loving, distant, NC, pursuing...and i think you just have to do what is right for you at the time.
I listen to everyones advice, but as people don't know everything about me, my H , my sitch there are many differnet factors that in the end we all need to do what feels right for us at the time, that may appear counter productive to some, and they are entitled to voice their opinions, that's what makes life interesting if we all agreed what would the world be like .
Stand, standing, former stander what does it matter, if this forum is helping someone then it is doing its job....Sometimes when I read posts by Syn,SL or LG with their patience and dedication it makes me feel OMG I am doing this all wrong, but no we are all doing it our way ...and no one should say what is right or wrong, but people should have opinions on a forum such as this, otherwise what is the point. :)
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I think with patience we need perseverance. Here is a definition that I think really dovetails the concept of standing.
per·se·ver·ance [pur-suh-veer-uhns]
noun
1.
steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.
2.
Theology . continuance in a state of grace to the end, leading to eternal salvation.
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Lisa, I’m one of the ones who choose not to stand. Not to stand for the current marriage. It is dead anyway. So, its time for divorce. I was standing when I first come here, even if I was sort of done with it. But it was very important, it still is, to be here. To learn from those who are standing for their marriage as well as from those who have stand and reconciled.
Some of us here are already divorced. I don’t think it is a question of not having the courage of standing for ever. It is a question that one has moved on our personal journey and come healed on the other end. RCR features talk about the fact that, many times, LBS ends up the journey before the MLCer and moves on. The timings are different.
Also, our own age, if we already have children or not (and if not if we want them) can make a person change course.
I don’t understand why Syn does not feel welcomed here anymore. Many here are still married and do not plan to divorce. Or, even if divorced, they (will) carry on stand. I do not remember anyone being rude to standers. After all, we all arrived here on that situation. So, Syn, if your are reading this, please come back. We need your point of view and to know about your journey.
forthetree is right, it is necessary to know that people manage to rebuild their lives. Being it by reconciling, remarring their partner or my moving on their own, maybe remarry someone else. There are more than one option. Again, forthetree is right, there is a huge “difference in the emotional state of the LBSer at 3, 6, 9, 12, 18 months in on the journey”. Now, imagine how different it is when you are 5 years down the road. No way you can be the same person. A lot goes one in our lives, not just our MLCer. Things change, we change.
I don’t like divorce one bit. But, sometimes, it is the only way. Or it has become the way. LIW and limitless, yes, I think that those who come to a point of stop standing may, further on, reconcile. And, to a certain extent, divorcing and non standing can be another way of standing. I know you get what I mean.
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I forgot to add one thing. Imagine I’m already more than divorced but I have not remarried yet. Husband is out of MLC, wants to be back and I see he is changed and go for it. I will need this site to help me in such situation. So, even if one stops standing, one still needs this site. And, anyway, a person that has lived with MLC can share its story and hope it can heel others in such hard times.
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I forgot to add one thing. Imagine I’m already more than divorced but I have not remarried yet. Husband is out of MLC, wants to be back and I see he is changed and go for it. I will need this site to help me in such situation. So, even if one stops standing, one still needs this site. And, anyway, a person that has lived with MLC can share its story and hope it can heel others in such hard times.
Standing is not STILL.
I think what you are describing is exactly what standing IS!
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I forgot to add one thing. Imagine I’m already more than divorced but I have not remarried yet. Husband is out of MLC, wants to be back and I see he is changed and go for it. I will need this site to help me in such situation. So, even if one stops standing, one still needs this site. And, anyway, a person that has lived with MLC can share its story and hope it can heel others in such hard times.
Standing is not STILL.
I think what you are describing is exactly what standing IS!
OP, I know standing is not STILL. And yes, what I'm describing is standing. But there is a bit of a confusion here in the site about the LBS who choose to divorce (and that may be for many reasons, including financial protection).
Like MLC and the MLCer, standing and the LBS change. What goes today may not go anymore tomorrow. Things change everyday in this jorney. Even if, from a certain point on all you can is go forward. Whatever that forward is.
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I couldn't agree more with "Standing is not STILL." In my first marriage, my exH is the one who chose to have more than one affair (which I recognize now was MLC), and my exH was the one who moved out for years and would not do the work even to recover himself. That's because he was "running from" not trying to face it! My stand was about me, about learning the mistakes I made, about growing myself while he was gone, and about making a stable life for myself and the kids. I learned I was not tied to him at the hip and that whether I was married or single, I was not enmeshed with someone--I was with myself. We divorced after 3 years and I just chose not to fight about it (in the sense of being disagreeable). I put out something fair, he suggested something unrealistic, we agreed to maybe 75% and agreed to let the judge rule on the 2-3 things left...and we were done.
After the divorce, I didn't rush out and date but I was okay with and ready to accept being single. I didn't interact with him daily but didn't push him away or act like a jerk. I decided what I would need to see in order to be interested again. I looked at what I wanted from a partner in life...and exH was not in any way interested in trying. So be it. I still stood for another 2 more years! Then I met my current husband and that's a forever marriage because I know so much more.
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I hope I'm answering the question....
I'm standing...just not by being in the way of the 'other' (whoever they may be!)
Sil x
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I wanted to check on Syn's thread, and saw that there had been a major hikack. She says i her thread that she is leaving the community because she does not feel welcome here any longer as a stander, due to the presence of so many people here who have chosen to stand down.
Where did she say anything about people who have chosen to stand down? Check yourself.
I guess it's time for me to be brutally honest with MY feelings here....
When I came to this site, I was allready 4 months post BD, and I was still very much a mess, I found people here that
helped knock some sense into me, by showing ME compassion and understanding for what I was going through. I found
a place that I could be brutally honest with my journey and everything that has been involved in MY life with my MLcer.
I was never afraid to say anything here, I felt SAFE. I have opened up my walls and wrote out my darkest emotions
and secrets because I knew NO ONE would judge me here.
But, in the last few weeks I have noticed a change in "tone" here, I have seen more MAN bashers and "haters" come in
and say " He is an A$$hole" and "you deserve better" The fact of the matter is WE get that IRL and I don't NEED it HERE.
I LOVE my husband, with every ounce of my soul, regardless of the journey he has decided to take for the last year.
I have cycled and pondered my stand, but I have been given the support to continue on by many people here.
but not anymore, I have seen cheering on of "divorcing" and 'not standing" and that bothers me.
I have seen "compassion" for our MLCers diminish and that bothers me. I was raised to have compassion for another
as you can see by my "signature below" I have compassion for everyone here and for their MLCers who ARE HURTING.
The actions our MLCers take hurt us, but it is NOT fully understood exactly what they go through in the midst of this DEEP
depression. I have been there, so I know fully how horrible it is and maybe that is why I can have EMPATHY for what MY
husband is going through, I have seen him sob in my arms and contemplate killing himself, I have watched him
hurt our family and friends beyond belief, but never ONCE have I resented him for any of it.
recently, I read a thread, where a newbie came in and was "hurting" she had just experienced one of the worst things
in her life, and yet, the tone on her thread changed to " You are going to be OK" to " WE DONT CARE ABOUT HIM"
I care about HIM...I care about everyone here. If I had been that woman, I would have turned around and never
came back here after so many were bashing her H. She has probably gotten that in her RL, and doesn't need
man haters HERE!
at that very moment is when I decided, enough is enough ( for me ) I can no longer read threads and peoples stories
while LBSers BASH another. It is NOT my nature. Ya, we come in here ans say OUR MLCers are A$$holes, but that is OUR
right, Not someone elses...I want people to say " I understand"
I find it sad really, that more and more LBSers are being "cheered" on to Divorce...That is the "tone" I see. And if I am
wrong, then I am sorry. but I believe RCR is trying to bring the divorce rate down, not advocate it??
Everyone has a God given right to DO what they want, a God given right to Stand or NOT to stand. BUT, to advocate
it HERE....is not what I agree with.
Life IS a journey....all of our lives are...from the moment we are born, our journey begins, We all need to learn how to
be compassionate towards others, and have FAITH that our Marriages will pull through this...I WANT that for everyone
but, when you BREED hate....it BREEDS hate. Newbies are desperate for their pain to GO AWAY, We should never
bash them....they NEED time...Time to understand WTH just happened to them, They NEED understanding...someone
to say " I have been there" and "YOU will be OK"
I cannot be a part of something that Breeds Hate, I was not raised that way...and I no longer feel that I as in (myself)
can HELP anyone here, when there is so much HATE.
If I come on this site and the first thing I read is " Your MLCer is an A$$" and I get upset, why would I come back?
I can get enough of that from REAL people in MY LIFE...so why bother?
I am saddened to see this here and that is all I can say.
( This is how I FEEL ) and we all have a God given right to HOW WE FEEL.
Be Blessed.
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Where did she say anything about people who have chosen to stand down? Check yourself.
LG, I wrote that BEFORE Syn ever posted her why--I apologize that I got it wrong. But really, there you go again, always presuming the worst of me. All I tried to do was bring the discussion to its own thread, to be honest, so that I could read it since you both have made it very clear you don't want me on your threads! I have kept my promise and have stayed away from yours since I told you I would, and I checked Syn's out of mortal curiousity for why there were so many posts. And it was an intersting discussion that I wanted to read.
Emerson said "these are the voices we hear in solitude, but they grow faint and inaudible as we enter into the world..." and he finishes this long thought with a statement that say to speak today what you believe in a big voice and do the same tomorrow, though the two may be different, for "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." And to that I would add my sentiment which is to always remember to ASSUME GOOD INTENTIONS. No one is here with an aim to injure or hurt, though many of us are injured and hurt.
We all have to be brave enough to speak our minds and hearts and know that others will question. If you really don't want others to question, then perhaps private journaling is better, but I think the reason for having a public forum is so that we can journal and have others question us to see if they might take something from our situations. We are all different, and yet we are living a shared experience and need support. Sometimes we get things wrong and sometimes we say things that are taken poorly, but I don't think anyone comes here with an intent to hurt anyone, even MLCers.
But, sometimes they do act like jerks and sometimes you have to just say it. I don't think I have ever heard anyone on here advocate or cheer a divorce or relish jeering someone's MLCer. But, sure most of us are guilty of not holding ours up to the same level you and Syn hold yours, I continue to argue that you raise the bar to an almost olympic standard that most mere mortals could never achieve. And so from your perch, it is likely you will feel little true support. I have very little to offer my friends who run marathons, my running is in a totally different league, but I still admire them and cheer them on. But, when they talk about perhaps giving it up, or slipping down to just 10K status, I admit, I don't push all that hard for them to keep up the marathons, I just don't know how, nor do I truly understand what it takes.
And so it is with standing, all our stands are different, time will tell who is right or wrong, who wins and who loses, but in the mean time, can't we all just try to get along? ASSUME GOOD INTENTIONS, assume love and support, no matter how you perceive what is said--we are all just trying and sometimes projecting, but does being mean to eachother help anyone?
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But really, there you go again, always presuming the worst of me. All I tried to do was bring the discussion to its own thread, to be honest, so that I could read it since you both have made it very clear you don't want me on your threads!
Lisa, I'm just stating a fact....and if you wrote it before you read what she wrote, then the onus is really on you!! I do not want to attack you, EVER, especially on your own discussion thread.... but you got your facts wrong. Show me where Synicca said she was leaving the forum because there were "so many people who have chosen to stand down" and where I EVER said I didn't want you reading my thread? How have I made it "very clear"? I said CLEARLY, I am on MY THREAD to JOURNAL MY STORY.... PERIOD. Please ALLOW me to JOURNAL. You, and everyone else can read, disagree, agree, whatever.... I don't want to be TOLD what to do by anyone.... or WARNED repeatedly that I'm doing "it" wrong..... I'm 19 months into this... I don't have all or probably ANY of the answers.... but I sleep, I eat, I GAL, I'm not a NEWBIE. I don't tell others what to do except to BACK OFF on my thread....
Why are you making this PERSONAL... I don't see where you are the center of any controversy here.... Where has anyone named you? People don't do that here.... again, check yourself.
You may not like me, or think you don't like me, or whatever, but I'm available to be your friend if you wanted. Your enemy is NOT me, or Synicca or anyone else here.
But, sometimes they do act like jerks and sometimes you have to just say it.
They act like jerks because THEY CAN'T HELP IT!! WE all vent about it... no big deal!! But they are SICK, and I don't kick a man when he's down.... (well, occasionally, but I try to do better...) but I've been here since nearly the beginning.... I know what I'm talking about!! The TONE is way different, and not in a good way....
I continue to argue that you raise the bar to an almost olympic standard that most mere mortals could never achieve.
What do you think I'm getting out of this? An EGO stroke? Do you think I make this sh** up? I just DO WHAT I DO..... I don't ask or expect anyone to follow my lead... in fact, I tell most people to DO NOT DO WHAT I DO!! I follow VERY STRICT guidance.... and I make NO APOLOGIES.... I am VERY strong in MY convictions, but I sure didn't start out that way.... see, I remember what it was like to be NEW at this.... it frikkin' SUCKS!! I've dodged MANY bullets... believe me, if my husband didn't have a vasectomy, OW would have already had their baby!! I count my blessings every day!
I've made my points very clear, and my intention is ONLY to be clear and factual... and I don't want to further hijack your thread, number one, cuz it's YOURS.... and you get to have it. I'm not interested in having a discussion like this on our public forum any further... I think there is a huge disconnect going on and I've tried to explain with my best intentions and efforts, but to no avail....
I would love to hear from you privately, if you want to PM me.... any gripes, complaints, questions or clarifications you might want.... I'm very open... but I leave the forum for less personal discourse..... just know I will be truthful, but with love. LG
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LG, syn,. Lisa, common, we all already have our hand full with our MLCer, our families, jobs and ourselves. There is already enough strife in ours lives.
The forum is a place for us to share, find help and support. And that us includes everybody.
Like syn, I too notice a harder tone regarding the MLCers. That does not please me. Nor being rude to other LBS. Not my kind of thing.
Yes, I think RCR set up this site to help bring the divorce rate down but she also says:
“Stander
A person who seeks to remain married while his or her spouse is seeking to escape the marriage; legal actions may or may not have been initiated or finalized. Some are Standers by action, while others are strict Standers in philosophy, believing divorce is an immoral action.
You may be a strict Stander, or you may choose to Stand without a strict aversion to divorce, or you may simply be uncertain whether your relationship is worth a Stand. It is for each individual to choose whether to Stand, or whether to step down. Some Standers are for Life, continuing to Stand knowing restoration of their marriages is unlikely. They are the Covenant Keepers, honouring their vows even as their spouse may marry another. Regardless of your beliefs and goals, you are welcome. “
So, we are all welcome here.
As for cheering divorce, as said before, I don’t thing that is the case. However, when a childless, quite young woman like WarriorPriestess , that is being on this for 3,5 years, I think we must tell her how hard this is and ask her if she is certain she wants to remain in such relationship.
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I know us guys are outnumbered on this forum and we do get a bashing in our normal lives, but I don't think any comments were malicious really. Someone said we are all hurting, which is true.
Part of detaching is a way to ease that pain (not that it works completely).
The fact that we are on this site indicates that we still have strong positive feelings for our partners.
We should not take what other say as a primary standard just because they set up the site either. each case is different.
With regards to divorce, sometimes we may find ourselves pushed into it. I did not want to go that route but my wife was dominated by OM and she filed. My only way to stop it was to contest her petition and counter file. Then stand.
You can even stand at that point and stop things sliding out of control.
This is why I say that the definition of standing is not so pure. If that was the case then I would be considered to have failed and I don't think so.
My primary objective is stability for my family and happiness of my wife. Show me a MLC who is happy and I will show you someone not in MLC.
They need compassion, sometimes from a long distance, and boundaries. Sometimes we need to be a long way off to allow MLC to progress because we , like it or not, can make it worse.
People who have been in this process for 2,3 or more years are not here for sport, they are here because they have unconditional love for someone who has lost their way.
It is better that we vent any anger and frustration here than at our poor partners. They are poor frightened children.
We are much stronger than them or it would be us in MLC. Maybe we are too?
Don't worry so much, this is life, we learn something new every day.
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Nicely said, Freddy.....
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Great wise words, Freddy.
People who have been in this process for 2,3 or more years are not here for sport, they are here because they have unconditional love for someone who has lost their way.
So true, so true.
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I have perceived the occasions of supporting divorce here as a means to the LBS's journey of letting go and detachment. I have been here a while. There are alot of issues surrounding MLCers and their LBSs that are complicated. Interesting that MLCers are often dependent, conflict avoidant, and passive aggressive. Interesting that LBSs here are often codependent, fixers, managers, s-mothers. I am not comfortable with the "poor lost MLCer" perceptions. We are lost too! There is a mutual dynamic in many of our relationships. We are on our own journey through the tunnel. I love HB's "becoming opposite," etc. Standing for the sake of standing can be a form of "martyrdom, nurturing, and compassion" that codependents like to call themselves instead of codependent. I am not saying every stander is codependent, but there are trends in relationship dynamics here. Divorce can be a standing action. How can you claim detachment, letting go, and GAL when you steadfastly refuse to D despite the poor treatment by the MLCer? They know you aren't really detached. There is a contradiction here between detaching and standing. I do wish that standing simply meant detachment, moving on with your life (including D and dating) and then if the MLCer ever clears the tunnel and wants to reconcile, the LBS addresses it then. Resisting divorce when your spouse is cheating and leaves you doesn't feel like detachment. I have a feeling some day that RCR will redefine Standing as simply an understanding of the MLC process, detaching and focusing on our own lives, and being open to reconciliation if the time ever comes (because we do understand the journey). I don't believe trying to avoid D will be included in the evolution of Standing, although many may still choose not to D. Thanks for letting me go on - I appreciate that we are all welcome here. I have always felt comfortable with my feelings due to RCR's openness to our differences.
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Well, here's the thing, BrandNEw..... you don't get to define what standing is to someone else... you may see it as co dependent, and it might be. You may think that divorce is the only way the MLCer will wake up.... good luck with that... if someone else "stands" and you think they are insecure, co dependent fools, you may be right.... but, really? When do you (not you personally) keep your opinions to yourself? WHEN??? The COMPULSION to tell everyone what you think they should be doing "for their own good" is FIXING to the nth degree.... there is a LOT of it going on here, and a lot of justification and defense of it.
i would say that labeling someone else as CO DEPENDANT is the slippery slope of co dependence and fixing S'Mothering.
Divorce can be a standing action. How can you claim detachment, letting go, and GAL when you steadfastly refuse to D despite the poor treatment by the MLCer?
This is not really your business when it someone else's life. MLCers treat everyone badly. ACCEPT IT!! They are not in their right minds... it's NOT a choice... and it's NOT personal.... If they had Cancer would you blame them for becoming the center of your attention? WOuld you blame them for sucking up all of the energy with their disease? Would you blame them for not getting better sooner rather than later even if that is their wish? Would you blame them for not being there for their kids?
Finally, would a CANCER diagnoses make you feel better about them.... would it make it easier to feel compassion and empathy? In my case, it absolutely would!! Because my husband seems, on the surface, to be capable of living real life.... but dig a little deeper than a 15 minute conversation and we are in murky territory.... I'm glad it's not Cancer, even though it's harder to understand.
By the way, DIVORCE does not = Detachment. By your definition, Divorce is a punishment for poor treatment by a sick person. Divorce can be a punishment.... for a lot of things... for cruelty.... for infidelity.... but if the person has a Disease or disorder, what exactly are you punishing them for? What? Being sick? Is the person you married a BAD person??? Did you really make a mistake and fall in love with a BAD person? Some people do.... Look back to your wedding.... was he/she a BAD person? Were you THAT fooled by a BAD PERSON??? With all of your youth and idealism.... were they a BAD PERSON???
I have news for you... if you want to divorce and date, and possibly reconcile with your MLCer one day IF THEY SHAPE UP and want it with you, then YOU are doing EXACTLY what they do with fence sitting.... wanting the marriage but not committing to it... until you see them behaving.... I really think that's ok..... but just SAY that's what it is you require.... THEM doing the work first before you commit.... I get that.... I don't even disagree with it.... just say that's what it is though.... it has NOTHING to do with STanding...
Standing really IS about commitment.... if you want to date, then just date for goodness sakes... but don't try and tell me you ALSO want your marriage to work out, because DATING while married COMPLICATES things to your detriment.... your marriage may STILL work out against all odds.... Synicca is one example of someone whose marriage has survived multiple infidelities and depressions, divorce, and remarriage... yet MLC has destroyed all they were able to overcome.... I can't speak for her, but I'm pretty sure that, as lonely as she might get, she learned how "dating while married" is not the answer you think it is...
My Grandmother lost the love of her life....my Papaw.... when he was only 52.... she would have been in her late 40's..... he died an excruciating death from Lung Cancer and, quite simply, working himself to death.... she never remarried. It sounds so romantic... yet, I know that many women secretly prefer a life all to themselves after their family is grown... no man to pick up after... no one to answer to... life insurance money to pave their way, as it should be....
She was asked once why she didn't consider remarrying and she said "Because the Screwin' I'd get wouldn't be worth the Screwin' I got!".... I don't know if she just didn't trust men, or if she thought she was "home free" from the obligatory sex.... I don't know!! But maybe, just maybe.... she meant that she trusted my Papaw.... and she didn't trust anyone else..... that loneliness wasn't all that bad considering the alternatives to being alone.... I've been divorced... it was amicable and no kids... people do it every day!! I don't hear many "wonderful" stories, but, hey!! SOmehow they seem to get along in life.... But, I will say that if you think divorce is an answer to anything, you don't really know the true cost. I wish I could caution everyone to go in with their eyes open, but if they don't ASK me, it's not for me to say!!
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I'll post this here as well. This is not in response to any individual post. I am posting this because posters may not be aware that The Hero's Spouse has a mission statement.
Mission Statement
•To provide information, advice and support on how to Stand for marriage to men and women experiencing midlife crisis and infidelity in their marriages.
•To prevent divorces.
•To reduce the overall rate of divorce.
•To encourage an alternative to divorce.
•To encourage personal growth and loving of one’s Self.
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I said CLEARLY, I am on MY THREAD to JOURNAL MY STORY.... PERIOD. Please ALLOW me to JOURNAL. You, and everyone else can read, disagree, agree, whatever.... I don't want to be TOLD what to do by anyone.... or WARNED repeatedly that I'm doing "it" wrong..... I'm 19 months into this... I don't have all or probably ANY of the answers.... but I sleep, I eat, I GAL, I'm not a NEWBIE. I don't tell others what to do except to BACK OFF on my thread....
LG, Are you not contradicting yourself here? You want to journal on a public forum and not ever be questioned, is that your intention? Perhaps you need to say that at the beginning of every post, or why bother, why not keep a private journal? You said again, "back off my thread" you have said it before and I took it literally, I have stayed away from your thread. I am not one that just absorbs lectures, I tend to need to ask questions and get clarification. I have told you before that I read your thread out of respect and curiousity and sometimes I commented because I did not understand--my "advice" was never a directive, but more a question, of why that way and not another. I stopped because you told me to.
But you still seem to be taking things a little too personally. You just ripped BrandNew a new one, for stating her opinion, not aimed at you, but just a thought, an opinion on what you said was "MY" thread? Though, I have never said that I didn't want others to post opinions, I want ALL the opinions, especially the ones I don't agree with--if I only wanted agreement, I would just talk to myself. Do you not see the anger in your post? There was no tone or judgment from BrandNew--I think you owe her an apology, seriously... (and I hope BN is a woman, I thought so, but now I am doubting everything I have ever known or thought, so sorry if I screwed up yet again...)
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Lisa, Yes I am a woman. I appreciate your support for being open to different perspectives on MLC and Standing. I am thick skinned and see the anger in LettingGo's post toward me. My post was my opinion on relationship dynamics between MLCers and LBSs. I still believe in my statements, just as LG believes in her statements. I really don't feel it is necessary to counter or defend myself. I simply do not agree. I do feel that as healthy detachment increases during this journey, our own anger and reactivity decreases. We are all on our own journey. I, myself, was codependent in my marriage, so I have my own tunnel. My MLCer has his own and becoming an adult and being treated like one, I believe is part of it. I feel that Standing for me is too maternal and codependent. I don't want those roles anymore. Complete collapse of previous roles. So yes, I am divorcing and will date when it is final. I love my husband and hope he gets through the tunnel with a more defined sense of self and autonomy. I don't want the marriage for the sake of the marriage. I want a loving healthy relationship. Whether that is with my soon to be former husband or someone else, only time will tell. Please note, LG, that my statements refer to my own choices for my own life. I do not disagree with Standing. I just hope that the cause for someone Standing isn't rooted in codependency, abandonment issues, and fear. Am I t/jing?
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I think that its really sad the way this thread is going at the moment. Don't we all have enough pain and sadness without arguing like girls in junior high . We are all adults here therefore there is absolutely no reason for the behavior displayed lately on this forum . I don't know what got this all started and frankly it doesn't matter. The bottom line is this : we are here to support and encourage one another. Nothing more nothing less. If for some reason anyone disagrees with something said here just let it go. If we cannot say anything nice how about saying nothing at all. We are supposed to detach from our MLCer maybe we need to use some of detachment here as well.
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I feel that Standing for me is too maternal and codependent. I don't want those roles anymore. Complete collapse of previous roles. So yes, I am divorcing and will date when it is final. I love my husband and hope he gets through the tunnel with a more defined sense of self and autonomy. I don't want the marriage for the sake of the marriage. I want a loving healthy relationship. Whether that is with my soon to be former husband or someone else, only time will tell. Please note, LG, that my statements refer to my own choices for my own life. I do not disagree with Standing. I just hope that the cause for someone Standing isn't rooted in codependency, abandonment issues, and fear. Am I t/jing?
BrandNew... I totally get what you are saying.... it's not how I feel, but I have already experienced divorce... and I have young children.... so my perspective is different.... I get what you are saying, though..... seems like you might have to try it out on your own to know what it is you want, but I don't want to put words in your mouth at all.... I get that you don't want your marriage "for the sake of your marriage".... I don't want that for myself either, BUT, I do see the stakes a being MUCH higher than some others do... perhaps because I've been divorced... still, I absolutely understand that, sometimes you are divorced against your will, or because you need to protect yourself financially, or because your MLCer has had a baby with his OW, or for whatever reason... FIRST OF ALL, you shouldn't have to explain to to anyone... but this forum was developed for "standers" so it puts you in an awkward position if you are the one who is filing.. I get that... or if you change your mine, which is your right - my right too!.... I get that....
It's hard for me to understand your point of view about Standing being "too maternal or co dependant".... I don't get that....but it's your life, pure and simple. I'm very sorry if I came across as criticizing you personally.... I will check myself.
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Thank you, Letting Go. I appreciate your response. Very fair. I didn't realize this forum was only for standers. So maybe I shouldn't be posting. The "maternal and codependent" comment was only about me and my codependency recovery journey, not about standers in general. I didn't file, but I would have due to the continuing infidelity and then the OC recently born. My MLCer is cycling. I am kind, but detached. I have to focus on my own journey and expectations. I respect all of the LBSs here and the choices they have made for themselves and their families. Should I stop posting here, including my own thread, since I am not Standing? Please let me know.
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BrandNew... the forum is OPEN, as I understand it, BUT, RCR started it as a haven for Standers.... people whose position is very misunderstood...
There are so many horror stories on this forum, I can barely stand it... I will say again that I feel so lucky that my own situation is only as bad as it is.... most people could not fathom it, though.
No one blames you for choosing to divorce.... even if you were NEVER "standing".... GOODNESS!! The circumstances are outrageous... they really are! There is no special martyr's crown for "standing"..... what is the point? If it is not in your heart, or if your MLCer divorces you, it changes your course!! There's NO CONTEST here!! If you want to be here, then be here.... what a crap hand you've been dealt... really!
The tone on the forum has changed... those of us that still hope for a reconciled marriage realize that, whatever the outcome, we have to move forward on our own and vanquish resentment from our lives and attitudes...... pity parties are still allowed, LOL!! There is a lot of resentment language being spoken here, and it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with where you are in your personal journey... there are "STANDERS" who, after two years or more, are so unforgiving that they are not fulfilling their OWN journey! They are missing out and becoming stuck! BUT, everyone has their timeline and lessons to learn.... I just disagree with the ham handedness of some on this forum.... to INSIST that others do as they say.... we are all different with different timelines, and 'tough love" is not always given with LOVE... sometimes it's all about ego.
I wonder about your position on standing being "too maternal and co dependant" but my Mother would probably say the same thing.... and THAT i understand... I disagree, but I understand. She's DIFFERENT than me!!
Although I don't strictly adhere to RCR's guidelines, because it is her forum, I DO respect them.... and if the focus is on Standing, then that doesn't mean others aren't welcome, but.... the focus IS on Standing..... not because it's the best or only way.... it's just her forum, that's all!! If you are getting support out of it, then stick with us!!
Nobody left behind.... just please, no MLCer bashing.... that's all we ask (not accusing you, by the way!!), and by bashing, I mean nasty stuff... not the usual "I can't believe what a jerk he is!!".... they are sick.... we all need to remember that...
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LG - I love this forum. I have learned so much from RCR and The Hero's Spouse. As my detachment has increased, so has my compassion for MLCers. Someone here mentioned how difficult it is to describe true letting go. It is very peaceful, no anger or resentment toward the MLCer. Lexapro has also helped. :)
The rollercoaster of emotions may resume, but for now I am grateful for MLC. It forced me to go on a journey of self discovery and self worth. I hope the same goes for my husband. Fascinating adventure!
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but this forum was developed for "standers" so it puts you in an awkward position if you are the one who is filing...
So, LG, why exactly would a stander be in an awkward position if they filed for divorce?
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Resentment and GUILT.... are KILLERS!! MLC..... don't tell my husband, but it has it's benefits.... talk about making lemonade out of lemons.... I'll admit that when he goes to OW's, though I don't like it (DUH!! I STRONGLY don't like it, LOL!!) I also SECRETLY like having the whole weekend to myself!!
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HB always advocated that the MLCer should be the one to move out or file for divorce (for the largest portion that is) so that their pride doesn't get in the way. The she didn't want me, why would I...
NOw it doesn't mean it doesn't happen or shouldn't happen but as a stander aside from being ready or financial safety what would the benefit be?
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Ummm..... standing for your marriage... avoiding divorce if possible while spouse is in MLC.... filing is awkward.... it may not be your highest choice!! It may be for total protection and in your best interest.... even in the best interest for your kids and family in the event of a reconciliation.... to preserve the family assets!! But, I'm not sure how it fits the SIMPLE definition of "standing" that's all!! I didn't mean it was WRONG at all.... sometimes you have to do what you've gotta do..... we've all been THERE.... I just think it's a little awkward if you are ultimately trying to preserve your marriage to be filing for divorce.... I don't mean it's WRONG... a LOT of things about MLC are so absurd they are awkward....
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Nobody left behind.... just please, no MLCer bashing.... that's all we ask (not accusing you, by the way!!), and by bashing, I mean nasty stuff... not the usual "I can't believe what a jerk he is!!".... they are sick.... we all need to remember that...
Great way to sum this up, LG!!
... a LOT of things about MLC are so absurd they are awkward....
A lot? I think the whole blasted thing is awkward!!
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filing is awkward... I'm not sure how it fits the SIMPLE definition of "standing"
Stander
A person who seeks to remain married while his or her spouse is seeking to escape the marriage; legal actions may or may not have been initiated or finalized. Some are Standers by action, while others are strict Standers in philosophy, believing divorce is an immoral action.
You may be a strict Stander, or you may choose to Stand without a strict aversion to divorce, or you may simply be uncertain whether your relationship is worth a Stand. It is for each individual to choose whether to Stand, or whether to step down. Some Standers are for Life, continuing to Stand knowing restoration of their marriages is unlikely. They are the Covenant Keepers, honouring their vows even as their spouse may marry another. Regardless of your beliefs and goals, you are welcome.
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IMO one of the solid foundations for this forum was the openness with which we welcome people to the board.
I think we should also be mindful that everyone who arrives here is truly hurting. They have felt pain that is beyond despair. To turn people away in their biggest hour of need is not what this forum is about. There is a spirituality about being here and whether you believe in God or not there should be compassion for other people who are hurting.
Many here will go onto divorce unfortunately. It's the way of the world. I am now at 2 years separation so my H can file for divorce anytime. But I would hate to think that members of this forum were so dogmatic about only being for standers who are married that the door was shut for me.
It is important we have compassion for the MLCer but also other LBS. There are many reasons why people divorce. I know of kind gentle LBS being taken down this route and have agreed to protect hemselves and their children. These LBS need the support that this forum can give them until we are ready to move on into life.
Sadly at the moment the forum appears to be losing compassion for everyone if you are slightly different from the quoted 'stander'. I have been on other forums when they imploded because of lack of understanding and compassion. People were badly hurt and the voice of reason was lost. I pray we are not going this way on here as I love this forum and what it stands for.
xx
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Great topic, Lisa..in re to the initial topic and a few others, my 2cents..
Shantilly, I too would strongly advise the same thing...let the MLCer move out. This helps in so many ways, for me, it helped keep my life a little more stable in a world that was turned upside down and did the same for my children. But I don't see anything wrong with the LBS filing for the divorce IF there is an OM/OW (read below). Now, if there is no OW/OM - then you should absolutely be standing. We signed up for good times and bad - well, these are the bad. And I don't know about your state(s) but divorce all too often seems like some chaotic court trial that costs tons of money. I did a simple dissolution, no lawyers - just paid filing fees, submitted our own parenting plan. Now, I know that's not for everyone. but I couldnt imagine going through an actual divorce with court dates, and lawyers and motions. ugh.
Divorcing as a standing action? you betcha. Here's my view on that: now, I think there are some differences between male/females in MLC. Most women seem to be gone. They drop the bomb, and dont turn back. If they part with one OM, another is around the corner. Seems the guys tend to come and go a little more, they're on again/off again. So, standing and not divorcing - or trying not to divorce - might differ from what I'd do differently (which I didnt do initially) which is to divorce asap. It's one heck of a boundary and many of these MLCers are unstable and make bad decisions. Mine was drinking a lot. Didn't want my childrens futures ruined because of her mistakes that I'd have to pay for. And while I didn't want to end my marriage, I couldn't be married to her while she was with someone else. I believed that I WAS standing for my marriage by ending it. Again, she's with someone else, so I basically thought I was disrespecting the sacrament as much as she was by remaining married.
In the end, you need to figure out what you're standing for exactly. I chose to stand for my family, we're a man down (or woman rather) but - back to the moving out part above - we're still here in the 'ol marital home. I have custody of my children and we pretty much continue to live the same lives we've always lived. I consider myself 'standing down' right now for her, but who knows what the future holds. I forgave her a long time ago and still care deeply for her and always will. I knew I had to start moving my life forward and move on (and I don't think moving on means moving on with someone else) and if she wants to catch up to me, that's her job at this point. And if we did reconcile - our 1st marriage/relationship is done. I'd be starting a new and different one with the same person.
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I think part of why people are getting upset is that their feelings are hurt by people who may mean well, but aren't careful with what or how they write. Take this for example...
But I don't see anything wrong with the LBS filing for the divorce IF there is an OM/OW (read below). Now, if there is no OW/OM - then you should absolutely be standing.
That indicates that in this person's opinion if you file, you are not standing. Now I know from the rest of the post that that was not what the writer intended, but that's what it says. Also it gives conditions for when it might be okay to do something - it's only okay to file IF there's an OM/OW. And then it says what SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be done. Huh? Says who? It doesn't leave a lot of room for understanding others' circumstances or why someone may feel the need to do something the write hadn't considered.
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This forum is a haven for standers, but also a sort of social experiment (for lack of a better term - I'm sorry I'm actually having a pretty rough day so my words aren't spot-on, I apologize in advance). I say that because as WE ALL know, there just isn't a lot of support for people in our positions (standing or not). I remember just weeks after BD going to the doctor for an STD test and advising the nurse why I was there. She looked at me with such sadness and said, "That happened to me, too". While I know she was being kind, I remember thinking how victimized she looked as well, and I thought "Gosh I hope I don't look like THAT in 20 years". Then I found DB, then Hero's Spouse.
When we were all growing up and getting married, did anyone ever tell us that this could happen? No. Did we ever stop to think about those marriages that we knew of that failed in mid-life and why? Probably not. Mid Life Crisis was a joke. People made fun of it. "See that guy in the sports car? That's his mid-life crisis car". Or when we saw an older man with a younger wife we made fun of that, too. It was so easy for society to just poo-poo the crisis and ignore the consequences of that crisis. Now we are living proof of the devastation it causes. We are here, journaling both good and bad, what this does to us, our families, and our friends. We are making a difference. We are not alone. We are not victims. We are holding each other up as best as we can. We are telling our friends and families about this. We are not ashamed of our lives. We are learning to be proud to stand, to fight, and sometimes, to end our stand.
We are on the front lines of MLC. We are fighting every day for our spouses, our marriages, and ourselves. We are learning, we are growing, and we will prevail, one way or the other. And if the world is a little smarter in the process because we came here, then we have done good.
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Little Chief, But your words are 'spot n'. I wish i could've said it like you did. :) Super!
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From Standing4Myself
"Now, if there is no OW/OM - then you should absolutely be standing."
The number of MLCers without OW/OM is a low low number. Part of the purpose of this website is to help the LBS deal with the infidelity that often accompanies a midlife crisis.
"If they part with one OM, another is around the corner."
This is not just true for women, it's true for men also. The MLCer must go completely through their crisis. It's not uncommon for there to be more than one alienator for either a male or female MLCer. See the article below.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance_mlcer-run-when-alienator-gone.html
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Stander
A person who seeks to remain married while his or her spouse is seeking to escape the marriage; legal actions may or may not have been initiated or finalized. Some are Standers by action, while others are strict Standers in philosophy, believing divorce is an immoral action.
You may be a strict Stander, or you may choose to Stand without a strict aversion to divorce, or you may simply be uncertain whether your relationship is worth a Stand. It is for each individual to choose whether to Stand, or whether to step down. Some Standers are for Life, continuing to Stand knowing restoration of their marriages is unlikely. They are the Covenant Keepers, honouring their vows even as their spouse may marry another. Regardless of your beliefs and goals, you are welcome.
This definition above is WHY i chose to be a member here. I wasn't SURE what i wanted. I was already in 13 months at that point. If I was told that this forum was ONLY for people who wanted their marriage back regardless... I probably would have read the articles and not bothered to start a thread. But I felt WELCOMED, REGARDLESS IF I WAS CHOOSING TO FIRMLY STAND.
I was left when i was pregnant. Lost my baby. My home is being foreclosed on... My youngest of
3 is 4 years old. And yes I filed a divorce. Then I found this site. And because of that... I decided to MAYBE give "standing" a TRY...
I haven't posted on my thread in months because I came to a point in my sitch that I was doubting whether I STILL wanted to stand. I have been cycling with these doubts. And I wanted to start posting again because I really do need the support. With this issue now being the focus on the board... I am reluctant to because of all the "judgements" that are flying around here.
There are so many lurkers out there that are probably wondering the same thing too. Its a shame that we are trying to "segregate" people into groups... We are ALL LBS's dealing with the SAME thing...MLC!!!
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Hello offmyrocker,
I'm sorry to hear your story. Please start posting again. It is alright it you are not sure if still stand or not. I think the dust settled and the "judgements" no longer fly around.
We are here to support to support each other and, if right now, you need our support, you will have it.
Don't worry about the lurkers. I was one for a long while. They may, or may not, start posting but if they lear something here that is already very good.
So, do tell us more about you and how are you doing.
Hugs,
Anne