Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: MarkedandHealed on June 22, 2010, 10:28:21 AM
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RCR mentioned that this would be a good topic and I agree. So, here’s my introductory post. I’m a researcher by nature so I’ll continue to try to pull up research and information regarding standing and MLC.
Many times people have something in mind when they think of a topic and others take it and run with it and the outcome is different. I believe ideas are living, breathing things and ideology is individual to each of us, no matter how many synchronicities there are between our situations and lives. I hope we can explore many aspects of this subject and all come to a good, healthy understanding of what Standing is and should not be.
The benefits and detriments to standing.
Benefits and positives
Keeping a family together
-the legacy of divorce, which affects generations to come
Maintaining your own self esteem about keeping your promises
Faithfulness to your religious beliefs
Being true to your future self, not making rash decisions
-Stats say 80% of all divorced people regret it at some level
Healing for yourself
-getting pushed into and then taking time to grow, learn, develop
-issues you may not have embraced without this crisis
Staying in a better financial lifestyle
-According to one study, women’s income decreases approx 27% with D while a man’s increases 10%
Detriments
When you get stuck and don’t face reality
Cake eating
Door mat
Self esteem
Depression
In researching for this, I found a great website www.theartofloveandintimacy.com/2007/03/top-ten-myths-on-divorce-research.html
Lots of articles and statistics, and questionnaires on marriage, divorce, and your attitudes towards it. Please don’t have your MLCer take these tests, though, as we all know they are not in their right frame of mind and their answers will be, shall we say, less than satisfactory.
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M&H, I've just read this, and it's useful to reflect on this! I suppose we all wonder sometimes why we stand when we deserve better (thus our self esteem is at risk).
The link has some basic information, and is worth reading.
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...I hope we can explore many aspects of this subject and all come to a good, healthy understanding of what Standing is and should not be...
In my view, most everyone stands for marriage - certainly all of us LBS who have sought out MLC forums like this one. Marriage and family are the microcosm of society. As goes marriage - so goes society. I agree wholeheartedly with the benefits of standing and the veracity of the divorce myths cited at the link.
In a practical sense, standing has less to do with one's commitment to the institution of marriage or a commitment to keeping one's vows. It has all to do with pain avoidance and insulation. The only thing that makes a stander into a non-stander is that the pain inflicted in their sitches has reached a point where the LBS says "Enough!" (when the pain inflicted reaches the LBS' tolerance level).
We can bolster ourselves with our faith and our commitment to our marriages and families, but on a day-to-day even minute-to-minute basis, we must always CONDITION ourselves to distance ourselves from painful situations. 'Detaching and Getting A Life' is not only the Conventional Wisdom, it is the Universal Truth.
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I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that I quite agree, pexio. There are many types of societies, many types of families, and many types of marriage. In fact, our current romantic view of marriage is quite recent, as is the nuclear family. It is important for stability, as our extended clan membership has broken down and the parents are the most important frame of reference that new members may have. Indeed, research shows that extended social networks may alleviate the detrimental effects of divorce.
I also do not think that standing is to do with bearing pain until you can't. There is a great deal of pain in separation/ divorce. There is pain in standing. There are consequences of either. I am standing because I love my H, I believe that we can still have a future together, and I believe he needs my support, although in a different way to before. Sometimes the pain seems more than we can bear. THis is why some LBS go NC.
'Detaching and Getting A Life' is useful, but there are no Universal Truths, only truths relative to our situations, cultures and beliefs. It is important that we have a self and that we our responsible for our own happiness, but sometimes our actions have to be less selfish in order to have a satisfactory outcome. I say this because I recognise that if marriage has led to a feeling of pain (I don't say it is the cause), then one thing a LBS can do is to create positive experiences with the MLCer when he/ she comes back into contact. In fact, I'd say this is an essential companent of reconnecting.
I hesistated to reply to you, because I don't like to contradict people's faith and culture, which are important to each of us, but I think it is helpful to understand that there is not ONE way to deal with MLC or one reason.
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I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that I quite agree, pexio. There are many types of societies, many types of families, and many types of marriage. In fact, our current romantic view of marriage is quite recent, as is the nuclear family. It is important for stability, as our extended clan membership has broken down and the parents are the most important frame of reference that new members may have. Indeed, research shows that extended social networks may alleviate the detrimental effects of divorce.
While the "romantic" view of marriage may be relatively new (likely influenced by too many romance novels and 'date night' movies), the concept of a nuclear family is as old as man. Long ago, we as a species learned that parents who loved and cared for each other and together raised their children in a loving environment, acting as positive role models for personal interaction, increased their and their children's chances of SURVIVAL. That's precisely why marriage is the institution that it is. I certainly don't dispute the importance of clan or extended family-type relationships. But they are supplemental to the nuclear family. There are very few, in any, statistics that show a positive outcome from divorce, unless it was to alleviate an abusive situation.
Sometimes the pain seems more than we can bear. THis is why some LBS go NC.
This is exactly what I was trying to say. There IS pain in standing AND in separation/divorce. It's like two sides of a scale with pain being stacked on both sides - should I stay?, should i go?. When the scales tips too far in the favor of separation/divorce, the stander becomes a non-stander. I assert that if one wants to remain a stander, then one must work to keep the pain from stacking up against standing. Which is why NC is so helpful.
'Detaching and Getting A Life' are universal because they are powerful tools - armor if you will - against the pain inflicted by the MLCer. It's just my shorthand way of noting what another poster recently said, "We need to live our lives as if our MLCer was never coming back." Oh wait, that was YOU! ;-) I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with...
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Mermaid
Don't let Pexio's "newbie" status fool you. He has been at this a long time and is very wise.
I respect anything he says.
Welcome Pexio to our forum!
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I've been offline for a few days and see this topic picked up. Glad to see it.
I'll read later, my lunch is over, but I skimmed and I think you both have a very good debate going here.
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OP, I hadn't noticed Pexio's newbie status. ;) It wouldn't make a difference. A debate is a debate! (I could debate that syllogism, but I won't).
Nuclear families were prevalent from the industrial revolution in Western society. In some cultures, groups of women take care of the children, and boys leave the group when they are initiated as men. In others, men have several wives. Women have had periods of economic power, of dependence, periods when they were gatherers, responsible for giving birth/ raising children. In some cultures, men are not expected to be providers, or faithful, or to have a role in childcare. In others, they do. The most continuous aspects about humans are their plasticity, openess to the culture of which they are a part, their communication and the importance of being connected to others. There's nothing natural about a nuclear family.
There are no universal truths. We have useful tools and perspectives. We have beliefs. But nothing is universal. Not even "I think therefore I exist". (I speak as a social realist, so I suppose there is some external measurability to existence). The point in this thread is that these are useful tools that we use according to our judgement and insight.
Sorry for being pedantic! This was too much fun to pass by. ;) ;D
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Mermaid,
The social structures you cite (polygamy, fathers not active in raising the children) have largely been abandoned in modern human culture. These constructs may have been deemed to be valid at the time, but now we know better. The nuclear family just works better. We, as a species, have tried all kinds of social structures, from Communism to Capitalism, Democracy to Dictatorship, to increase our chances of SURVIVAL. Those constructs that work, based on past and current knowledge, we keep. Those that don't, based on new knowledge, we discard. I, for one, am glad that I didn't have to go to work in the mills of my hometown at age 10 like my grandparents did. Child labor was a social construct that was tried and thankfully tossed aside.
There may not be universal truths, but that doesn't stop us from trying to seek them out none the less. We, as humans, are supreme in our pattern-matching and analysis traits to discern What is, or more importantly from a societal perspective - What Works. We are flawed and our knowledge has been and continues to be incomplete. Our perception of truth and reality changes over time. At one time not too long ago, the world was flat, women were chattel, and slavery was OK. This was true and real because these views were fairly universally held. These views have largely been abandoned as our knowledge, while not perfect, inches us closer to the mark.
To tie this back to our MLC situations (as I will always strive to do), there are widely accepted "tools and perspectives" that are true and real because the consensus of opinion on their validity (or lack thereof) is fairly universal. Detaching (to distance oneself from pain) and GAL (to focus on what one solely has control of) are universal precepts that are firmly held on every MLC forum.
I have to admit that I'm little surprised that I'm debating the merits of a nuclear family on midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com! ;)
Thanks OP for the kind welcome brother.
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Here is a link to Psychology Today basic primer on divorce. They have many articles here from the effects of divorce on children, to rekindling the love. Good reading.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/divorce
In a practical sense, standing has less to do with one's commitment to the institution of marriage or a commitment to keeping one's vows. It has all to do with pain avoidance and insulation. The only thing that makes a stander into a non-stander is that the pain inflicted in their sitches has reached a point where the LBS says "Enough!" (when the pain inflicted reaches the LBS' tolerance level).
While I agree with your basic sentiment here, I do disagree with a few statements. For me, standing has everything to do with my vows. And while everyone has their "uncle" point of pain tolerance, I have to say that the emotional pain I've endured would be enough for me to quit if I did not have my vows to back up my position. Personally, I try to never make a promise that I do not keep, and I said vows to stay with my husband forever. Until death. Therefore, I must stay with him until he either returns (which he will) or he finalizes it.
And, as Mermaid put it, I believe my H needs me. I feel it, I see it in little ways. He can not stand the thought of losing me, he is lost and alone and confused. One day, my strength will be part of what helps him come through and feel forgiven. Can he be a whole person without me? Of course, but right now he is a broken and hurt person and he needs me around.
I totally agree with the minimization of pain, although I'm not certain yet that it's entirely possible. I'm just beginning no contact myself, which is hard as my H still lives at home. I officially, in my mind, began yesterday but today he came to the kitchen while I was cooking dinner and asked me a question. Should I leave while he's speaking to me and be rude, or answer him? I chose to answer. Now the limit starts again.
I personally had a lot of pain this past weekend as I was home alone most of the weekend. My GAL includes trying to find friends, which is very, very hard when you're an adult with no children. H was out watching the fireworks, one of my favorite things, with OW. I was very depressed, and I don't get depressed. It took me two days to figure out why. It didn't even dawn on me that it was a holiday.
Today I am back to feeling happy. Not my usual bouncy, sunshiny self, but happy. Mellow, content. I'm sitting at a Borders waiting for my book writing club to come along and reading on here. Having a pretty good time.
Had I quit yesterday when I was so down, what would have happened? What about if I walked in on H having sex with OW? That would be sure to put me in a funk for a LONG time. What if I quit then, and didn't wait it out for the healing to take place before making my decision to stand or not from a place of power, peace and strength?
I think one of the benefits to standing is that you learn to experience and handle a wide range of emotions and strength of emotions. To be sure, in my previous marriage (meaning the one H is attempting to destroy) my feelings were not at the surface. We had enough problems that I was shoving those feelings down often enough that they were dulled to say the least. One of the gifts H has given me now is that I am able to learn to feel my emotions more deeply than I have in years. And that will make me that much more of a rich, vibrant person when he is through this.
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I also agree that Standing is about commitment and vows.....even potentially post divorce. From most of what I read, MLC is akin to an illness....an emotional disorder. The majority of MLC's do come to an end if you believe much of the information that's out there. Jim Conway's statistics are 2-5 years in women, and 3-10 years in men. This may mean that you get divorced before the MLC has taken it's course (if it does take it's course).
Standing is a big piece of what brought me to this forum. Standing means that I am going to hope that God will provide me the strength to see if my ex-wife's "condition" will change. Much of what we read says that it probably will....but it's going to require two areas that are tough to enter....forgiveness and patience......which are two areas that I believe are hard to do with our own strength.
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The social structures you cite (polygamy, fathers not active in raising the children) have largely been abandoned in modern human culture. These constructs may have been deemed to be valid at the time, but now we know better. The nuclear family just works better. We, as a species, have tried all kinds of social structures, from Communism to Capitalism, Democracy to Dictatorship, to increase our chances of SURVIVAL. I have to admit that I'm little surprised that I'm debating the merits of a nuclear family on midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com!
Actually, no. :)The social structures I cite are still in existence. Modern western culture and the nuclear family arose as the result of economic reorganisation during industrialisation. Extended families weren't abandoned because they didn't work so well, economic life makes it less possible. In southern Europe, extended families are a source of greater stability and social support networks, even in the case of divorce. Divorce is more destabilising where these extended networks do not exist. We don't know better now, we know different. And we have passed the modern period where one idea is supposed to be better than the others, and moved into a post-industrial period of greater heterogeneity.
I believe in marriage, I believe in my marriage, but just because I do, I don't believe this is the only way to live. I am not a fundamentalist. If I were married to a violent man, I would not want to stay married.
There are obviously several reasons for standing; Vows, beliefs, hopes, desires, avoiding pain, abut we agree that avoiding change is counterproductive.
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Awesome thread! I wish Braveheart were here!
I am scanning back and have been scanning threads, but am focusing on reading and making notes on those posters who have requested coaching...so you probably won't hear much from me. I received more requests during my vacation than when I'm here!
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Awesome thread! I wish Braveheart were here!
I I received more requests during my vacation than when I'm here!
:) :) :)
I guess thats why you started this forum!
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...While I agree with your basic sentiment here, I do disagree with a few statements. For me, standing has everything to do with my vows. And while everyone has their "uncle" point of pain tolerance, I have to say that the emotional pain I've endured would be enough for me to quit if I did not have my vows to back up my position. Personally, I try to never make a promise that I do not keep, and I said vows to stay with my husband forever. Until death. Therefore, I must stay with him until he either returns (which he will) or he finalizes it.
I understand your POV completely. But, it's still all about pain. You are clearly committed to your marriage and the vows you made to your spouse (and God) all those many years ago. I suspect that, due to your upbringing, abandoning that commitment and breaking your promise would cause your a lot of pain. In fact, it would cause you much more pain to throw in the towel than to endure what your MLC spouse is inflicting. Wouldn't you admit that you would feel really, really bad about breaking your vows? So you stand because it is the least painful thing for you to do.
Choices aren't made in a vacuum. All choices, even the tiniest, are made to serve ourselves FIRST and FOREMOST. We would not last long as a species if we didn't choose in our own self-interest all the time. Did you ever toss a few coins into a panhandler's cup? Why? To help out someone in need? Well, that's the secondary reason. The primary reason was because, due to your upbringing, you "felt bad" for this person and you didn't want to "feel bad". To alleviate this pain, you gave. You quite literally, paid for pain relief. And didn't you "feel good" as you walked away ('tis better to give than to receive)? We always choose, as Mark Twain said, to "content our spirit" first. The only difference between a "good"choice and a "bad" one (from a societal perspective) is that the "good" choice benefits us AND OTHERS at the same time. All people are selfish all the time.
M&H, you're right. Everyone DOES have their "uncle" point. That point is reached when the pain of the current course of action is perceived to be greater than the pain of a different course (the scale with pain stacked on both sides reaches the tipping point). It's why the MLCer chose to abandon the marriage in the first place. Their perception of the cause of the pain and the path to alleviate it are flawed because they are ill. But it is the pain they feel nonetheless. They will do what they have to do to alleviate the pain, and so will we.
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Pexio
That was really good.
I am currently reading a book called "The pain behind the Mask" "Overcoming Masculine Depression".
This book confirms what you are writing and generally explains why men behave the way they do.
Men in MLC have choosen to try to stop their pain by running rather than looking to confront the pain.
Your explanation of the behavior of the LBS is very inciteful.
Thanks for that.
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So you stand because it is the least painful thing for you to do.
I agree with this, it gives us hope, but I question whether we always should. We have to question ourselves about whether standing is right for us, why we want to be married, what is good about our relationship.
Despite the pain, despite our vows, there are times to let go. In some cases the partner has always been abusive, but even their LBS don't want to stop
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Ah, very clever. Yes, I will concede that it is painful to think of lowering what I consider my moral limit in order to accommodate what I consider an immoral act, that of leaving a marriage. Very well stated. :) Four stars. 8)
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Interesting thread. :)
I can see what Pexio is saying; as I'm at a place far removed from the crisis...once you detach, GAL..it becomes a way of life...and is useful when facing OTHER trials this life has to offer, even AFTER the crisis is finished and behind you both.
You, too, will see these things as you come forward yourselves.
Life, post-crisis, becomes one big problem to solve on a daily basis, and you learn the tools of a lifetime....again, these will be useful in other problems the marriage, or your life, in general, may come up against.
The changes you undergo are PERMANENT, not temporary; a growing up that all needs to do within the MLC of the spouse.
Believe me, I have been there, myself. You find as things begin to change for the better, you're NOT really needed; as your spouse needs to learn to care for themselves..they become your companion, someone you are married to, and you find that you need because you love; not the other way around. Yet, you'll find you're not "joined at the hip"; and NO ONE is controlling the other; each person is allowed room to grow without it being a "threat" to the other.
Your vows take on a different, truer, deeper meaning once you've survived the crisis together..and a "scar" is laid upon the marriage bond; a mark of healing for you both. Your love deepens to yet another stage, but not the final one; it will be years before that final stage of love is reached.
Being married is not a means to an end; but you stand because you CHOOSE to stand; even after ALL you endure. Committment holds you even when the love is gone for a time; and it happens to ALL couples.
I've been there, too, right along with my husband.
My situation in his MLC, was quite different ,within the early days of this, in regards to the adultery my husband committed:
I, for one NEARLY left my marriage a few weeks AFTER OW Discovery..and was determined at the time that I would. I figured I was a intelligent woman; could make it in the world...but was unsure what I was going to do; yet I'd made a decision I knew I was going to have to live with for the rest of my life. This was a life changing decision; a definite "no-no" in MLC.
I said NOTHING to anyone; but GOD knew..yet, I hadn't talked to Him about it..well, we KNOW He knows EVERYTHING. :)
That same night, I had someone come to me, and after telling me things that only I knew, in time, she, having allowed the Lord to use her, convinced me to turn around.
Yes, it took TIME for her to convince me to change my mind...stubborn doesn't have a "one-up" on me, when I make my mind up about something...but I'm thankful that He looked past my stubbornness, and kept her after me...even to the point I got VERY angry.
But, I turned, and am glad I did.
I had SUPERNATURAL intervention; Ladies, and Gents; that turned me around, and into a Stander. The "door" to me leaving was open at that time, because my husband had committed adultery...and I was TWO steps away from taking that option.
I didn't break my vows, MY HUSBAND DID.
If that lady hadn't done an intervention with me; I would have left him high and dry, and that's a fact.
I had had ALL I could stand at that time; or thought I'd had.
I didn't care at the time about his pain; I didn't quite understand his pain...all I knew was that I had been cheated on...although I wouldn't have seeked revenge against him, I was destroyed emotionally from what I had found out. And the PAIN I was going through, was something for the record books.
THAT was my "uncle" point in this pain.
I'd known God wouldn't have held it against me; as I wasn't the one who'd committed adultery. But, I knew I'd be bound to live the rest of my life alone...that was as far as I'd gotten.
If I had left him, I wouldn't be here now, that's for sure. I suppose I would have learned what I was supposed to learn; in time..but who knows?
I take a HARD stance on adultery; MLC or not. I've NEVER done it, and God willing, will NEVER do it, and though I counsel people who have spouses that are in the process of committing adultery, I, myself, am total DEATH on the subject.
It's IMMORAL, and the wages of sin are death...as in EMOTIONAL DEATH; I saw my husband go through this while in OW Withdrawal; as well as suffering consequences of his actions, that God made sure he suffered.
He'd not only sinned against me, but even worse, he'd sinned against GOD.
It is WRONG; cuts the spouse that has been wronged DOWN, destroys families, and the devil gets a big kick out of it.
The Bible says it's WRONG; regardless of the circumstances that brings it about.
Innocence is destroyed on BOTH sides, and you can't get that back, no amount of "making up" will ever "fix" someone who's had another and damaged themselves in this way.
I had a rough time working through the whole ordeal; working my way toward acceptance, forgiveness and healing...and I STILL thought of leaving from time to time. The adultery was my milestone; once I was past that, the other stuff; such as emotional abuse I suffered while within his crisis was easy to forgive.
Yet, as a servant of God, I STILL have the duty to remind people that adultery is WRONG, hands down. I was ALSO reminded of it even as the Lord explained what had brought it all on; a temptation that led to my husband's downfall..yet, He STILL reminded me that there was still NO EXCUSE for what he did. And he paid a pretty heavy price for this; even though the Lord forgave him....I STILL observed him reaping hard the corruption he'd sown; just as God's Word says a person will do when they commit adultery/sin.
The MLC'er is well-aware of what he/she is doing, and the guilt and stabs of conscience are terrible. Say what you will, but they KNOW what they are doing when they fall into this temptation.
There comes a time when they will and must face what it was within them that led them this direction, and they must fix it within themselves, regardless of whether they tell the LBS what they did or not.
If they do NOT deal with the "void" that was within them..it's a setup for yet another bout of crisis down the road.
Thank you all for listening...this is what I learned while within the his crisis.
I will step down off the soapbox now. :)
I never understood exactly why God intervened with me, but He did..and I learned, in time, not to question His Will. His Promises to me then for the restoration of my marriage, came to pass in time, and although life is what it is, I'm actually GLAD now that He took the time to bring someone forward in my direction for this intervention.
He walked me forward one step at a time, one day at a time toward the outcome that He'd graciously shown me in the beginning...something He did NOT have to do for me; yet He did.
As I saw things start to come to pass, I understood that He was there for me; with me, and He was taking care of me...and He was instrumental in helping me to change the person I'd been into the person I became, and am STILL becoming; even today. :)
I STILL had to walk the walk, talk to talk, learn the lessons, make the decisions as they came about..and He never left me; not even for a minute throughout.
I heard the "radio silence" from Him several times, and knew what it meant...I had a decision to make; but I always knew the alternate paths that went with either decision I made.
I learned to trust Him with EVERYTHING in my life; and even when times seemed hard; I still followed Him; and still follow Him even today and always.
I NEVER blow smoke when I say "let go and let God"; He knows the hearts of all people, and knows our needs; and meets us at the point of our greatest need. He loves us when we don't love ourselves...and we love Him because He loved us first.
Take care of yourselves. :)
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Bumping this thread up for DGU
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In a practical sense, standing has less to do with one's commitment to the institution of marriage or a commitment to keeping one's vows. It has all to do with pain avoidance and insulation. The only thing that makes a stander into a non-stander is that the pain inflicted in their sitches has reached a point where the LBS says "Enough!" (when the pain inflicted reaches the LBS' tolerance level).
well said...i think that's what i'm doing/feeling right now. when someone asked me why i'm standing, i said i love my H, and i believed in my vows.....when i heard myself say it, i wasn't sure i was believable!!! ....i mean, yes i do love my H, and do believe in the commitment, but when i read this thread, i can feel that YES, this is what prompted me to stand.....pain avoidance.....
thanks, pexio :)
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I just read the newsletter from RCR and she was talking aabout DOORMAT behavior, and what is a DOORMAT.
I would highly recommend everyone reads that.
Since lots of us think we are doormats, and RCR's point is that STANDING is not a doormat behavior.
In general you need healthy boundaries.
Anyway I don't want to give away her whole article, so just go read the newsletter!
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Why do we stand? Is it for God, for our family, for a promise, for true love, for fear, for need, or because it's the least painful thing to do?
Standing isn't hanging on, it's moving on, with the option of forgiving and rebuilding a life with someone who is worth waiting for.
What do you think?