Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: kaffe diem on October 07, 2011, 02:49:50 PM
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I can imagine some topics have covered this although clearly on this site, most threads are focused on Mid Life Crisis.
When I go through the "signs of MLC" with my W in focus, I truly can place a check beside all 30 "signs". Yet here's the thing. 10 years ago when I M my W, I could probably have checked at least 20 of the signs. Perhaps ALL of them, as I was the OM.
So I thought perhaps we could take the age old question of trying to describe MLC, and see if perhaps we could pinpoint the differences of MLC vs. plain old vanilla WAS.
For example, confusion is often pointed as a primary indicator or alternately described as lack of rational thinking.
My W certainly shows signs of confusion or irrational thinking, and yet much of her thoughts or things that she verbalizes regarding our M and it's break down, certainly APPEAR rational. In the sense that, in the mind of the WAS, the issues ARE rational. In the way that if one re-writes history to suit their perspective, things are rational.
For example, my W indicates that I never financially provided to the family.
Her statement is (close to) fact. I was the SAHD. We both agreed to that. In the mean time, I continued to operate a home based consultancy in which I earned money to pay bills and buy food, etc. Not a significant amount of money, but certainly I provided.
So, my W could simply remove the "never" from that statement and indicate that I did not provide significantly to the financial well being of our family.
Certainly "rational".
Re-writing history, my W will "rationally" indicate that much of the consulting I did was "off hours" conducted in the evenings and weekends, which cut into family time.
Therefore, this "rational" train of thought (and it IS correct; and due to the fact that I conducted business when others were home from their employement) is that I abandoned the family. And that I only involved myself in family engagements or the kids or my W when it was "convenient" for me. Or when my W "nagged" me.
Whereas the truth from where I sit is, my W began to set stringent boundaries on when I could and could not conduct business as well as when clients could and could not contact me.
By way of this circular logic (as well as the slumped economy), my earnings dropped very significantly. Which puts my W's rational comment that I did not significantly contribute financially to the family, as a fact.
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What I'm getting to here is, at what point or from what perspective do we see someone like my W as rational and clear minded?
Does my W's failure to see the circular logic as being self fulfilling prophecy mean that she is confused and therefore her thought process and behaviours are MLC?
What makes a WAS a WAS and how is that different than an MLCer? Examples would probably help...
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For example, my W indicates that I never financially provided to the family.
Her statement is (close to) fact. I was the SAHD. We both agreed to that. In the mean time, I continued to operate a home based consultancy in which I earned money to pay bills and buy food, etc. Not a significant amount of money, but certainly I provided.
Are you married to my husband, kaffe? ::) He has the same statment of how I never provided to the family. I also was one that stayed home and runned the projects we both created, plus having a bunch of freelancer work.
As fot the difference between, MLCer an AWS, the blame and the history rewriting are some of the differences. My ouncle left my aunt, there was another woman, but ne never blamed my aunt, never rewrote history, never made false claims about my aunt, never cut her the money she was due, etc.
Could you please be so kind to explain why you were the OM when you married your wife? Why were you the OM and how dif you felt being the OM?
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I think most of the MLC articles on here do a good job of explaining what people go through in a Midlife Crisis.
To me, the biggest differentiator of an MLCing spouse vs. a WAS spouse would be the personality changes and depression. MLCers want to reinvent themselves, or recapture a fading youth.
It's one thing to feel unfulfilled in a relationship; it's another to change how you dress, or develop a whole new social life, or dive into addictive behaviors. Also, people who are just in an unhappy relationship don't run away from their family and friends, or quit their job.
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Are you married to my husband, kaffe? ::)
LOL Anne! I certainly hope not! :)
As fot the difference between, MLCer an AWS, the blame and the history rewriting are some of the differences. My ouncle left my aunt, there was another woman, but ne never blamed my aunt, never rewrote history, never made false claims about my aunt, never cut her the money she was due, etc.
OK, I want to be clear that I both am looking for some rather concrete differences (which may not ever come out of this thread) and also playing a bit of devil's advocate in a sense, for constructive discourse...
Things like blaming, don't we all forget ourselves and our responsibilities from time to time and blame others for things that don't quite go as expected in our lives... like blaming the (unexpected) train crossing or heavy traffic for being late. Our spouse was in charge of paying the cable bill and forgot so cable got cut off. We blame our spouse but we don't divorce over it. But a WAS might use that as one reason why they are choosing to go in a new direction without the spouse. Does that make them MLC?
Isn't re-writing history really just a matter of perspective? (Hypothetically) I thought we had a fantastic time in Disneyland because I stayed in the hotel and enjoyed the on site entertainment, but my W thought it was a terrible time because she decided to go out and visit some points of interest and it was raining and some of the locations were closed and I didn't go with her (because it was raining and off season so figured going out would be boring and unfulfilling).
As suggested in the first post, it appears to the LBS that the MLCer is rewriting history, yet in their mind, their perspective... THEIR history... is correct...
Could you please be so kind to explain why you were the OM when you married your wife? Why were you the OM and how dif you felt being the OM?
My W was in a 7 year R prior to me meeting her. At the time, she decided to leave the R because her BF was both physically and verbally abusive. I (as a "friend") became involved through other friends to help her in the transition. I was not initially attracted to her but over time and prior to her actually leaving her BF, we began an A. The "excuse" was that he was abusive and therefore she (and how I figured this was OK by my moral standards, IDK) was justified. Yet I was "hidden" as any type of romantic R from everyone, including her family, except for a select few "close" friends, until the BF was removed from her home and handed a restraining order. Then our R started becoming more "open".
I honestly didn't see myself as an OM in a direct sense, although the "hidden" R did strike me a bit odd. But it seemed appropriate so that her BF would not find out and become further abusive towards her and also to hide the fact that we were all working to safely remove her and D13 from the dangerous environment.
I can see how her current OM probably has no idea that he is really an OM and my W is starting to integrate him into her families social gatherings.
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I think most of the MLC articles on here do a good job of explaining what people go through in a Midlife Crisis.
To me, the biggest differentiator of an MLCing spouse vs. a WAS spouse would be the personality changes and depression. MLCers want to reinvent themselves, or recapture a fading youth.
It's one thing to feel unfulfilled in a relationship; it's another to change how you dress, or develop a whole new social life, or dive into addictive behaviors. Also, people who are just in an unhappy relationship don't run away from their family and friends, or quit their job.
Yeah, I do get what you're saying, SS...
Just a thought. I'm pretty sure I'm not in an MLC. I figured there might be something wrong when my W told me not to go on a weekend outing with her and the kids, prior to bomb drop, as she basically told me I was not welcome to join them and they would not go if I insisted I was going. And I decided that if there was something wrong, maybe we might consider looking at our M, by way of counseling to try to sort some of this stuff out. And while I left because I made an assumption that my W might be having an affair, I did not want to end the M and again, this was prior to attempts at counseling.
Anyhow, the point is, I'm pretty sure that I'm not MLC... but... By way of GALing... I am reinventing myself, to some degree. Got an ear ring... letting my hair grow out... will be getting into a fitness program including muscle building (at 44 yrs old; and having no prior desire to do this)... and I've abandoned a lot of friends because... well... apparently they are toxic as many of the "friends" that I am no longer associating with have helped enable my W with her As as well as validating that I was not a good husband...
And I'm considering a major course correction in careers through this...
Oh, and I do suffer from depression...
But... I have gone through many transitions, unmedicated for the depression, and gone through liminality, et al. in rather positive and constructive ways... as well as transformations that were likely not otherwise life transition periods...
So again, "normal" people do tend to go through transitions of one sort or another, some quite major, and it may or may not be a mid life transition, nor crisis...
What I'm wondering is, is it not possible that a WAS could also suffer from depression? Just not be in crisis? Or make new friends who happen to be younger? Or decide that wanted to update their wardrobe...?
Maybe it's just a matter of irrelevance, but there sometimes seems to be an acceptance that there is a difference between WAS and MLC. Even for those who may not believe in MLC, there's a difference between a vanilla WAS and the nutcase WAS...
But with the list of signs of MLC for example, as mentioned my W is certainly an MLC wannabe... and yet... ??? she was all those things before the crisis, as far back as 10 years...
What's the likelihood that someone is so long undiagnosed PD or otherwise so resistant to what might be considered life transitions and therefore carries MLC signs over a period of no less than 11 years?
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I think the above kinda took me off toping... ;D
Yes... there are a lot of great articles that describe a MLC...
so really the main question is... when is someone NOT MLC...? What are the signs of vanilla WAS and how are they different than MLC?
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Here's a link to Michele W D's explanation:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_walkaway_wife.htm
Has your wife done a complete 180 with her personality? Has she become her 'alien opposite?'
Has she not only abandoned you, but also friends, family, pets, kids? (sorry, I'm not familiar with your situation) or are those things still firmly in place?
I would think they would be the biggest differences.
Just read back and you could tick off 20 MLC depression symptoms for your W when you married? You're a brave man :)
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This is also a good board for those in a relationship with a depression sufferer: http://depressionfalloutmessageboard.yuku.com/
There are a lot of similarities, I assume because depression is such a big part of midlife crisis.
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Let me try to get some differences between AWS and MLC, starting with monster. Not the normal anger a person feels at such times. Plus, the mad court cases some of the MLCer come up with. People like my husband that would never dream of being in a court of law. He did not even had a traffic or parking fine!
Also, the change of clothes, starting wearing stuff he as always disliked, hanging around much younger people that drunk too much and took too many drugs, living in rentend rooms in flats croweded with students. All these sort of crazy things.
A normal WAS, like my uncle, will not change is way of dressing, job, friends, living habits, will not become monster.
Ear ring? Growing hair? Fitness program including muscle building, at 44 yrs old with no no prior desire to do it before?... :o kaffe... red alert, red alert! ;D Maybe you're not really into a crisis, just transition. Or just reacting to your wife crisis, but those things you named are alert signs.
As for the friends that validated your wife affairs and said you were not a good husband I understant you are leaving them behind.
If your wife was all the things in the list ten years ago maybe she has something... or was already in pre-MLC?...
Thank you for your explanation about being the OM. You may be right, your wife other man does not even feels like the OM.
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Kaffe , I would tend to think that one of the biggest differences is the MLCer acts Mad as a Hatter. ::)
They can't look you in the eye, they are forgetful, fearful, panic stricken, monster spew, texting stuff like a teenager, ignoring any friends or family who don't agree with their version of re-written history, addicted to an Affair Down type, Odd touch n go conversations, talking about junk mail and other meaningless topics, compelled to abandon their familes, substance abuse, losing their jobs, heading for rock bottom, teary eyed...crumbs of hope..I could go on forever. WAS I think says "I am done" and acts accordingly. I would think they are organized and well thought out. My H ran down the steet out of the blue saying 'Give it a few weeks, we can be friends.' :o :o :o :o :o
Now when i see him in the driveway he acts like he is a shy kid trying not to let on he likes me. :o :o So strange.
Looks mental in the face if we discuss me having future Rs. Not sure if that helps or not. Just my opinion :)
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I think the above kinda took me off toping... ;D
Yes... there are a lot of great articles that describe a MLC...
so really the main question is... when is someone NOT MLC...? What are the signs of vanilla WAS and how are they different than MLC?
When they're not showing most or all of the above...?
There could be other behavioral or emotional issues that have nothing to do with midlife crisis. They could be biological in nature, like a chemical or hormonal imbalance. There could be FOO (family of origin) issues that don't necessarily precipitate a full-blown midlife crisis. I can't tell you if your wife is MLCing or not. Heck, I can't tell you with 100% certainty if my wife is MLCing or not. Low-energy MLCers may be hard to distinguish from a normal walkaway spouse. RCR or others may chime in with better information or suggestions.
If you're asking because you think the approach to a WAS spouse as opposed to an MLCing spouse would be different? To my mind, not really. People move to end relationships when they think they can't get any better. We would still be recommending GAL activities, doing 180s, and practicing detachment, and giving a walkaway spouse a chance to discover that things can be better with the person they are married to. The biggest difference is that an MLCing spouse has to work through the crisis in their own head before they can even begin to consider healing their marriages.
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Here's a link to Michele W D's explanation:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_walkaway_wife.htm
Has your wife done a complete 180 with her personality? Has she become her 'alien opposite?'
Has she not only abandoned you, but also friends, family, pets, kids? (sorry, I'm not familiar with your situation) or are those things still firmly in place?
I would think they would be the biggest differences.
Just read back and you could tick off 20 MLC depression symptoms for your W when you married? You're a brave man :)
Interesting thing about that, Kikki... MWD, and I'll submit others, appear to have a tendancy to point to woman as WAW and men as MLC... yet in many a forum and idle conversation, much of that seems to begin to blend... it is common to see WAS or hear discussions of a woman having an MLC...
While MWD's description of a WAW resonates with my M and my W, the difference is, my W didn't stop complaining... up until I finally found a "job" that was quite lucrative (unfortunately time consuming and higher risk), she continued to complain... about money, time spent with family, the fact that while we discussed the new "job", I took it regardless and she stated she understand it was for the benefit of the families financial well being, and cleanliness, and the fact that I "smelled" when I came home from work, etc, etc... AND... I think I mentioned this above, maybe not... my W only once "agreed" to D... she's never asked for it... in fact, she continued to tell me she wasn't ready to tell me she wanted a D, did not know if that was what she wanted, but knew that she didn't feel M, that ILYBINILWY, she lost that loving feeling and didn't know how to get it back, and in fact... indicated that she didn't even want a legal separation, but that she was simply happy living in the limbo that we had, indefinitely...
Now, that COULD follow the WAS principle... that she got "busted" before she felt safe making the transition... so even now... she can't seem to say she wants a D (in fact, does not even discuss it when I bring it up)... she has her OM (who has good money, a nice house, she has keys to his truck for use any time, etc, etc)... Seems to me that everything is ripe for the "panned BD" and saying she wants a D... or the non-codependent who is comfortable being on their own... the WAS who simply does not want to be M and so is prepared to go through the D process and co-parent accordingly and maintain a civil if not friendly R with their X...
Not wanting this to be a new topic about me and my sitch, although I am using my sitch as an example, because of the BLANTANTLY obvious, almost imperceptible commonalities of both "rational" WAS and (likely provable) 30 of 30 MLC signs...
My W is in many ways BOTH...
She SEEMS rational... but spews venom and hatred at me, but in her mind, it's probably warranted... and isn't there almost always some animosity between spouses who are going through D? She's concerned for her financial security and therefore that of her kids (at least, that's presumed) and therefore will fight head to toe to prevent me from getting anything resembling what others might consider a fair financial and custody settlement...
And again, she shows the signs of MLC... has she abandoned friends, kids, pets, etc...? You'd never know it, looking right at her... but her friends have "shifted"... but don't we all get new friends, younger AND older than ourselves? And she pawns the kids off or leaves them at home to go out to party... but don't we ALL want to get away from the mundane from time to time... relieve some stress...? But my W will leave D13 home alone by herself overnight, while my W will go party with friends and then staying overnight at a friends place... the animals...? IDK... but I've heard the dog is starting to display some strange behaviours... like running away... but he's always been a little neurotic and "not quite right in the head"...
It's only stuff on the real edge... there's no alien... I wish I had one... but she's doing this stuff, without a doubt, at least in my mind... but she hasn't changed, radically... it's not publicly noticeable...
So I wonder... who's the crazy one...? Am I seeing things that aren't there? The above are... well... facts... but, she's always been like that...
So is polar opposite, publicly obvious, alien behaviour a necessity for MLC diagnosis?
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I can't beleive in all the time I've been on here, this is the first time I have seen this discussed. I agree with everything you hsve written. You are only in crisis if you are not able to see that your changes are hurting people you love. So, I don't believe you are in crisis.
I can say that same thing, I have changed a lot of things about myself since H left. I got a different hair style right away--it was drastic and funky and I died it purple--he would have had a cow. I definitely changed my clothes, because for the first time in 20 years I was actually able to spend money on myself and not feel bad about it. I took up swimming and running and lots of other things I never had time for and started hanging out with the funky people my exH always frowned at--people who do tarot and energy work and don't have advanced degrees, and even--horrors, some people who are really conservative, but good for me professionally. I am so not in crisis, but free to really be me after a long life of living to suit him and his life.
And I struggle with WAS vs MLC and what that means. It's part of my non-stand. I think my exH is a WAS. He shows many of the signs of MLC, but all in a mild way. Moreso than anything he shows signs of being a true narc--often WAS's are often narcs... So, I hear you... Lisa
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WP: Yes, I agree... MLC as described is certainly based in depression. Understandably so. In that vein of thinking, is it impossible for someone to be a WAS if they life with un-medicated depression?
Yes Anne and MB: For the most part, it certainly seems that the crazy, obvious nutbags are MLC... so that remains... would that be a defining difference of MLC and WAS? MUST they be completely insane in order to be MLC?
lol Anne: Yes, I am just waiting for the sep papers to be signed so that I can start my own MLC... ;) On the monster, does monster must show up publicly in order to be MLC, or can monster simply be confined to private, closed doors and emails?
MB: I think you are right from what I understand, that the WAS really comes to a place of, "I am done, I am moving on" and then they are prepared to talk about D. Although there's no definitive time frame. MWD indicates that it can be months (like when finances are in place) or years (when kids graduate) before the WAS might out themselves... If you "catch" a WAS mid stream... do they back peddle and deny and avoid and make excuses... or do they simply say, "oops, caught in the act. Yes, I'm done."
SS: Yes, I think you are on to something that I don't know has really been explained well or at least, I am not sure how to interpret... the so called "low energy" MLC...
Because what many people talk about with the crazy, alien behaviour is definitely high energy stuff... and man... when my W's monster comes out, holy cow run for cover... and the crazy thinking... I love my W, but... sometimes her thinking isn't always running on the tracks... ;D
How does one truly spot... low energy...?
And LL: Nice point... crisis does as crisis is...
I can't be in crisis if I know the damage that is happening because of the break down of the M...
My W insists "the kids will be fine"... she claims she knows I am hurting... but does she really empathize...? does she REALLY care...? About the kids... about me... about the effects on the in-laws (both my family and hers)... the broken Rs all around... the kids...
No, as pretty much anyone will say... you shouldn't necessarily stay together because you don't want the kids to get hurt or to don't want to damage other Rs... then again... one might think that the rational mind would say, "OK, before we do anything drastic, let's consider MC"... and not just avoid it for the alternative of everyone else living in limbo and on hold while the MLCer goes on living their "dream"...
But the... script as it were... the MLCer often knows that the "right thing" is to go to MC, even though they use it as a venue to indicate how good they are and how bad the LBS is, so that they can say they "tried"...
Yes... crisis might really be the key word here, and that being indicated by the general obviousness that they are unaware or appear indifferent to the hurt caused to others, notwithstanding the LBS... because precedence suggests that D is ugly and therefore the spouses will hate each other because of it and don't care about the animosity...
And the low energy...? IDK... not as often, and not as "loud"... but an underlying, barely perceptible but observable nevertheless if one looks close enough, that the indifference is there... it's just... not... as obvious...
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Low-energy MLCers may be hard to distinguish from a normal walkaway spouse. RCR or others may chime in with better information or suggestions.
This is probably where the area gets grey - with low energy MLCers and WAS's?
I can tell you without a smidgen of doubt - if your spouse is a High Energy MLCer you wouldn't be asking the question. It is SO OBVIOUS to those that are close to them. They may keep their 'masks' on to cover their depression in public, or the masks may slip at times - it depends on the individual.
But if you had a high energy MLCer you wouldn't be asking that question.
So - you prob either have a low energy MLCer or a WAS. I'm sure others will be along who have experienced this.
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I don't know that it is so cut and dry as you are trying to make it. I think there is a lot of overlap within those categories. But as opposed to seeing them as all completely separate, I visualize it more like a Venn diagram or aligned along a broad spectrum. It helps to research as much as possible about all of the options, and then try and place your spouse where they seem to fit best, always staying open to other possibilities.
I for one like concrete explanations and prescribed remedies, so I empathize with your frustration in trying to figure it all out though!
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I can see how her current OM probably has no idea that he is really an OM
Of course he knows he is the OM, just as you did know you were the OM.
This forum is absolutely full of LBS who's Hs and Ws have been "rescued" from "abusive" marriages and relationships by OWs and OMs. These "rescuing soulmates" engage the "suffering ones" in adultery because they are "helping" them.
we were all working to safely remove her and D13 from the dangerous environment.
And as part of this "safe working" you thought it a good plan to have an A with her. She is in a relationship with an abusive partner and you don't think having sex with her might not put her at greater risk???!!!!
I honestly didn't see myself as an OM in a direct sense, although the "hidden" R did strike me a bit odd.
Struck you as a bit odd???!! So your current relationship that started with secrecy and deception has ended with...secrecy and deception.
Has your wife done a complete 180 with her personality? Has she become her 'alien opposite?'
It would seem not. She was happy to cheat on her previous partner with kaffe and is now cheating on kaffe.
Brother, some folks reading your thread could be forgiven for thinking you may have been hit by the karma bus.
honour
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Here's some info from RCR about this
"Walk-aways that are not MLCers probably won’t display Monster, projection, and in-fatuation."
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kaffe, like DGU said about RCR articles, monster, projection, and in-fatuation separate WAS from MCLers. And yes, if you had a high energy, or an over high energy like my husband you would know for sure it was MLc.
To me monster has always been private. Even if we were in a public place would only turn up if no one could notice. Mainly it was closed doors, email, phone. But like we all had seen with Mel Gibson, monster can be public.
honour, yes, it could be seen like karma bus. Still, some people do have abusive partners and when we are young we do things we would not do latter on. Also, for some, a boyfriend and a committed relationship /marriage are different things. I know a couple of guys who were real players and, since they got married, have no stray a single time. No, I’m not advocating cheating on a boyfriend/girlfriend. Just saying there are many shades of grey.
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hahahaa!!! Honour... Even I don't have any problem suggesting I got hit with the Karma Bus... lol! And believe me, I've found out this is a pattern that hasn't been repeated just twice by my W... apparently she's done it a few times prior to "getting it on" with me...
WP: I hear you... while I'm the type of person that believe just because an answer hasn't been found yet, doesn't mean there is no answer to be found... but yes, a lot of this MLC stuff has to do with psychological conditions and at the very least temporary, if not long term PDs... so trying to peel anything specific if it actually isn't, certainly appears pointless...
Good pull on that info DGU... Again, to play a bit of devils advocate, I wonder if it can't be said that a "normal" person might present those behaviours, especially under stressful conditions. Perhaps there's something to be said about consistency over time... that most of the MLC signs, as well as the behaviours you've listed will be present over an extended period of time... that again, time really is a factor in MLC, not just in how it can take so long to go through the crisis, but also that it can take a long time to be sure that it is in fact MLC... at least in regards to the low-energy types...
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I agree, often the WAS is still waiting for someone, for the reason to finally walk, so you will see in-fatuation, and we all project and monster, especially in stressul situations. If you never get extreme anything, can you ever really know it's MLC. I need for there to be a test, I expect to find it right next to the insulin strips or pregnancy tests, I keep checking, but as of this morning, no go...
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hahaha LL: no doubt... I think it should be around the corner from the adult magazines, beside the PG tests and birth control... nicely hidden from view... ;D
I wonder if it could be written something like this, regarding WAS (adding to the RCR quote):
"Walk-aways that are not MLCers understand the harm that is being caused by the marriage breakdown including to kids, left behind spouses, and extended families and also probably won’t display Monster, projection, and in-fatuation."
Oh, BTW: Just found out that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to see it, does it still make a sound? The answer is, yes...
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NB: Edited the quote above... didn't make sense after first post...
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If no one is around to SEE it or hear it?
If my H falls down and no one is around to see it will he still have fallen? :o :o :o Don't even try to figure that out I am getting like THEM :o :o :o
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Yip Mamma - he will still have fallen/is going to fall 8)
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KiKi Someone told me that Tom Petty song 'Free Falling' is about his MLC. ::)
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I am not much of one for playing devil's advocate.....I'm just an information guy. There is a book available called the Walkaway Woman (or Wife, I can't remember which).
I very much agree with what RCR wrote. From things I have read, a walkaway spouse is leaving from what they consider a bad marital situation. They do not leave because of in-fatuation. Walkaway spouses are not necessarily having an affair.
Projection and Monster are specific. What makes them specific is they are nearly always directed toward the spouse. They are usually behaviors that are not part of the MLCer pre-bomb drop. Anger and stress are normal things, Monster and Projection are not.
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Projection and Monster are specific. What makes them specific is they are nearly always directed toward the spouse. They are usually behaviors that are not part of the MLCer pre-bomb drop. Anger and stress are normal things, Monster and Projection are not.
That's some interesting stuff, DGU... yes, I would certainly say that monster and projection do not occur pre-BD... yes, the usual "loud" complaint and the "you didn't do this or that" stuff... but not, by any means the anger and venom of monster and the "everything is your fault" suggestions...
As far as the in-fatuation stuff, true enough... although I'd guess that does sort of go both ways with MLC... the MLCer may not have an OP... but... it's also possible it's not for not trying... just for what appears to be the fact that they don't seem to think anything's wrong with that... because for all intents and purposes, they do not feel M... (as my W would say)... the WAS might have a love interest... but it's quite likely or more often than not, an OP is not a reason to leave... that there's not necessarily a STRONG EA and probably not an ongoing PA... of course IDK, but certainly stands to reason, I would think...
I'd say that a WAS knows they are M and feels they are M, they just no longer want to be... and as such, the rational of a (presumed) moral and sane individual would be that an A is not really an option...
Except in the cases of... can a person say "traditional" infidelity...? Where there could be a one time PA or a budding but as they say "unexpected" EA which the unfaithful spouse realizes was inappropriate... and generally work to stop it, or at least express some regret and remorse if caught... a WAS would probably do the same... whereas someone in MLC... well... they don't think they did anything wrong AND it's all the LBS fault, anyhow...
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When it comes to walkaway spouses, you will see either or both of the following:
1) They feel like the current relationship is unfulfilling or stagnant, and that their spouse is not responsive to their needs.
2) They have found an OP who meets the unfulfilled needs.
MLC has little to do with the health of the relationship and a lot to do with the mental and emotional state of the MLCer. Their complaints have less to do with the reality of the situation, but how they see it through the lens of the depression and the Shadow self they are struggling with. I would think bomb drops would be a lot more severe, because the LBS isn't as aware of their partner's feelings.
When my wife and I went through Retrouvaille, she described some of the exercises as sheer torture. These exercises were asking her to explore and discuss her feelings about the relationship. A non-MLCer would probably be able to describe her complaints about the relationship and what she wanted to see get better in the marriage. She couldn't even do that. (Of course, this could also be the case if the spouse is committing adultery, because all of their emotional energy is going towards developing that relationship.)
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KiKi Someone told me that Tom Petty song 'Free Falling' is about his MLC. ::)
Just googled the lyrics - I had no idea:
I wanna glide down over Mulholland
I wanna write her name in the sky
I wanna free fall out into nothin'
Gonna leave this world for awhile
And I'm free, I'm free fallin'
Sounds about right, doesn't it! Wonder if he 'left this world for awhile' or 'forever'?
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After reading all the comments here I now no longer know if my H is MLC or just WAS :(
He did say the LYBNILWY and said he doesnt know what hes doing or why and that he just has to do it. Has said on other occassions how good I have been to him and he doesnt want to hurt me ( too late)
He also said he didn have an OW, but was interested in 2 women at clubs he frequents and woudnt have sex with them while he was with me. I think they are both EA as he seems to have discussed everything with the. Not the property tho. He said they hadnt discussed that yet, but he didnt want any as it was mine b4 we married.
I acted quickly on legal separation agreement to protect myself
He also got panicky when I mentioned D. He started fumbling with words and saying he hasnt said anything about D and didnt think he wanted one. He stopped me talking about it.
Said he doesnt blame me for anything, but did mention things he was sick of
He was crying a lot as well during and after BD
He also said was something wrong in M for past 18mths, Thiught it was a rough patch but did nothing about it and didnt rasie it with me
so,,,WAS or MLC?
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After reading all the comments here I now no longer know if my H is MLC or just WAS :(
He did say the LYBNILWY and said he doesnt know what hes doing or why and that he just has to do it. Has said on other occassions how good I have been to him and he doesnt want to hurt me ( too late)
He also said he didn have an OW, but was interested in 2 women at clubs he frequents
He also said was something wrong in M for past 18mths, Thiught it was a rough patch but did nothing about it and didnt rasie it with me
so,,,WAS or MLC?
MLC. This sounds a lot like the BD from my low energy H. Note specifically the confusion and compulsion behind the ILYBINILWY type BD. That is one of the key factors of MLC.
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thanks WP. I was getting confused. I sort of feel with MLC there may be hope at the end of the tunnel. WAS? not so sure about any hope.
Odd thing is, every time he comes over, he always says, " I really love you, you know that? "
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MsZing, the one thing to note is, for the most part, the work the LBS should do regardless of MLC or WAS is pretty much the same.
While confusion does appear to be a tell tale sign of MLC, a WAS who is not quite ready to hold up the D card might ask the LBS to slow down, thus confusing the LBS and thinking the WAS might be confused...
For me, the hardest part of not knowing would be that with MLC, there is to some degree no right or wrong that a LBS can do to change things. MLC just has to take its course. So patience is pretty much the only thing the LBS can do...
Whereas with a WAS, the sooner a LBS can make positive changes in themselves (for themselves, of course, not as a tactic) and be consistent with those positive changes so they "stick"... the better... the WAS will notice (the MLC is just confused so wouldn't really notice these things in any positive way) and might start thinking they would be a fool to leave the LBS... part of the reason why, MLC or WAS, it's said to do your best to keep the road home, pave and smooth... because if the MLC label is too quick to be pasted when perhaps its a rational WAS, a LBS who stands STILL is likely to remain unattractive and the WAS will continue on their path...
I don't want to put fear into people who jumped on the MLC label for their spouse... again, the work is the same, because while it might be futile for a MLCer, because the line can be so fine sometimes, the LBS might best work from the perspective that they have a rational WAS...
Having said that, I wouldn't say your H isn't MLC, MsZing... as WP points out, he could be low energy... but without monster and I think maybe more projection (blaming you for everything that's gone wrong in the M)... IDK... Yes, I know there's MLC (the clingy, boomerang) that seem to be martyr... and then there's also the aspects of indifference... not caring how you or others feel... like in the case of MLCers with kids, they really believe there will be no ill effects on the kids... yet they will see other couples with kids getting divorced and will talk about the poor kids and how they'll be negatively affected...
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thanks WP. I was getting confused. I sort of feel with MLC there may be hope at the end of the tunnel. WAS? not so sure about any hope.
Odd thing is, every time he comes over, he always says, " I really love you, you know that? "
Both MLC and WAS can swing either way...
With WAS you CREATE time and use the delays of legal proceedings to provide more time to work on yourself and become an attractive option for the spouse, but NOW is the time to act... WAS can turn around in short order... nothing to say it could take a few months or a year in some cases...
With MLC time... time... time... what is time, anyhow... but just a measure of the universe floating through the infinite space... with MLC, patience is your enemy... if you have none... don't bother... time is the only thing that gets the MLCer through the tunnel... but on the down side of MLC... if one has the patience... if you wait the 2 or 3 or 5 years it might take your MLCer to finally get to the other side... unfortunately, you may not like what comes out... the MLCer may still not want to be with you and there was nothing you could have done to prevent that... it's a crap shoot... but hopefully the LBS will have worked on themselves and at least tried to be a great option for the awakening MLCer and if that doesn't happen, then the LBS is ready for the next R...
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thanks WP. I was getting confused. I sort of feel with MLC there may be hope at the end of the tunnel. WAS? not so sure about any hope.
Odd thing is, every time he comes over, he always says, " I really love you, you know that? "
There is always hope MsZing. :)
And that statement just shows how confused he is. If he really loves you why is he doing this? He told you at BD- He doesn't know why but he has to do it anyway. That is the truth. He is on his own journey now to work on his own issues. But he wants you to know that he does love you. This is not about you. It is about him.
And positive changes you make now will help pave the way regardless of whether he is a MLC or WAS. Either way I would follow the DB techniques of focusing on yourself, getting a life, and not pursuing. You will need to take your own journey towards healing and becoming whole at this time now. One day at a time sweetie. *hugs*
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And positive changes you make now will help pave the way regardless of whether he is a MLC or WAS. Either way I would follow the DB techniques of focusing on yourself, getting a life, and not pursuing.
lol... just thinking about that... maybe there's a litmus test for someone if they're brave enough to try...
Tell a WAS that you hate them... they'll probably believe you...
Tell a MLCer that you hate them... and they'll probably think you're pursuing them because you love them...
???
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I was going through some info and realized that above, I had indicated that because we all understand the MLCer is in a fog, and that time really is the only resolution to MLC, that what the LBS does while the spouse is in MLC doesn't really matter... and that's not entirely true... even though if we do everything "perfect", the MLCer may still choose a life independent of the LBS...
but on another thread, Hearts Blessing had provided a reality check that while it might be fun to entertain ourselves at the expense of the confused MLCer, that often enough, they really DO remember, at least what others did to them (even though they may not remember things THEY did):
"..a wrong word or action at wrong time, can cause them to "stick" in the tunnel. That's not to say you do not need to change, you do; but these types of "head games" such as what I outlined above are to handled carefully and thoughtfully."
I've also read that the MLCer can actually "run further back" into the tunnel when they have a negative experience on their way out...
So like a WAS, there should be caution with MLCers, that the LBS do what they can, early and often, to work on themselves and keep the road paved and smooth...
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KD, love your idea of alitmus test...LOL
WP Im not in such a bad headspace today and thanks for the support. I was thinking over the week and I think part of my feelings apart from feeling sick, is that I made the mistake of trying to "rescue" him by sending a collage I had put together for a focus group I was attending. It was a round about way of me trying to remind him he had to do one for the group he was attending so he would get paid. Needless to say, he would have seen right through it for what it was and he didnt contact me that week.
I need to disconnect
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Kaffe
As suggested in the first post, it appears to the LBS that the MLCer is rewriting history, yet in their mind, their perspective... THEIR history... is correct...
I know that this is going back a few pages, but I wanted to address the re-writing history thing. I agree that we all have our subjective ideas about our history, but I would add that there is a re-writing of history as well as confusion in their heads about the revisions as well as a complete turnaround from the things they were saying only a couple of years before.
For instance, about 2 years before BD (and before H really entered his crisis) he would regularly tell me that we were SO LUCKY to have found each other and to be in a relationship where we have such good communication with each other - a real meeting of the minds (his words). 14 years into a R he is still saying this.
Two years later, at BD the revision - we don't communicate, understand each other, we are conflict avoidant, he has ALWAYS felt this way. So - either he is rewriting history or he spent 14 of our 16 years being a liar - who pronounced how great our R was without any pressure from me to do so. Futhermore at BD, I receive a letter from H saying we have been lovers, friends, soulmates and it breaks his heart to hurt me. So - we were lovers, friends, and soulmates who never understood each other or communicated, who he doesn't love and never did. Does that sound like normal logic?
Of course, I have my own perspective on our marriage and it is naturally subjective too. But - I KNOW that we did communicate very well with each other for many years until we didnt (at a time that I can now clearly see his attitudes began shifting and a crisis was beginning). Furthermore, we were lovers, friends and (dare I use the term?) "soulmates". So he DID love me, or I could not have been those things to him...
We all WRITE our own history of course. It is the complete turnaround revision the RE- write that marks a crisis IMO. Of course he believes what he says about it now, he is not overtly lying - he believes his rewritten version. It is just that it is a rewrite from everything he previously professed to believe...
I don't know if I am being clear here, but this is how I see the difference - we all have our versions of how things went down, but the MLCer changes his own version to suit his current behaviours...
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Stand
I know exactly what you are saying. A few months before BD ,H was saying how good we were together and how we always had fun, then at BD its: Things havent been right for the past 18mths. Thought it was a rough patch but its not.
What? Talk about shocked. 3 months prior we were holding hands over dinner ,him kissing my hands saying he loved me and was glad he married me.
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I don't know if I am being clear here, but this is how I see the difference -
Yes you are being clear. A very helpful post.
honour
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I find this thread extremely interesting as I'm sure many others do as well. I often wonder whether my W is MLC or WAS and sometimes struggle with the differences between the two. I've had many say that my W is textbook MLC due to the fact that she abandoned the kids, had the dramatice weight loss, made the impulsive spending decisions (new car, clothes etc), moved three times in 4 months and slept in the same bed with me for weeks after BD and even ML afterward. That would SEEM to make everything obvious, but it's the times when I speak to her that she seems so lucid that throws me off. Now, she hasn't done anything legally with the D since filing and even seems to have forgotten the Separation Agreement she had drawn up several months ago and had her lawyer mail me to sign (funny thing is that it's the original, so if I don't sign it or "lose it" she will have to go through the trouble again). Does this indicate confusion or just that my W is a procrastinator? Does this indicate that she may be a WAS who may just decide to give the M another chance with the holidays coming on? I hope so, but since everyone close to her has noticed the change in personality and teenagery behavior I'm not getting my hopes up.
Do WAS change their personalities, start hanging with new friends, abandon their kids and take on all-new habits?
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"Do WAS change their personalities, start hanging with new friends, abandon their kids and take on all-new habits?"
Good question.
My H said he needs to get male friends. He has gone for so long isolating himself. I wonder if it is a part of finding themself. For a guy, it could be part of dealing with the whole "masculine" thing. I do not think my H feels like he is abandoning the family since we only have S19 home and he is in college. I think H just thinks that he has abandoned me. He does feel bad about it, but feels it is something he has to do. He lets me see his depression and confusion, but does not show this to anyone else that I am aware of. He has a different mask for work. Your W does seem to be in a true identity crisis right now. That is part of MLC and she is at midlife. Has she talked about depression?
Summer
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Hey Summer,
She has never admitted to depression and states that she is very happy, even "the happiest she's ever been." I don't believe her, though, and D10 has mentioned that she always looks really sad when she doesn't think anyone is watching her. I remember looking through the window at her when she was in the living room by herself before she moved out and she often looked very down. She always complains of being tired and has had several ailments (mostly stomach problems such as diarrhea) since BD as well, which are classic symptoms of depression. So, she either is and won't admit it or she doesn't realize she is. I sometimes chalk the depression up to stress (which I've heard her describe it as) about the changes in her life.
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Hey Summer,
She has never admitted to depression and states that she is very happy, even "the happiest she's ever been."
Fits a pattern: my W said she had discovered herself. Points perhaps to an initial sense of euphoria.
She always complains of being tired and has had several ailments (mostly stomach problems such as diarrhea) since BD as well, which are classic symptoms of depression.
Right after BD my W had a severe soar throat. So severe could barely talk i.e. answer questions. Psychosomatically convenient?
honour
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I wonder all the time, is it this is it that, what if I had done that instead of this... But at the end of the day, none of it really matters. You can't change it. Anything you try to do that is not in line with who you are is pretzeling for an uncertain outcome. Our spouses left, or want to leave, or are not fully present in the M, that is all we know. We may never know the real reason why because they may never know the reason why. Whether they are MLC or WAS, they are still in some kind of crisis or revealing a personality flaw that became too hard to hide.
So the only thing we can do is figure out how to live our lives, separate and apart from them and the weird issues they have chosen not to share with us. Whether he ever loved or trusted me, he got to a point where he just didn't--so much so that he could take his considerable pain and uncertainty away from me, and in my case to another person, knowing it would hurt me and our family.
Whether I believe in MLC, or the process, being fixated on it makes me fixated on him and all I can fix at this point is me. I know a man that once upon a time was a great husband and dad, who has been in replay for over 10 years and three wives. I know his original LBS and his son who is now an adult still wonder what happened to their dad, but at this point all they can do is laugh and hope he doesn't hurt anyone else. There is no crystal ball that can tell us the truth about our past or our future, so we just have to make the best life with what we know today.
I appreciate this thread, but don't get stuck here, like I do so often, There are no answers, just life and love and the gifts of every day and if you spend too much time looking for answers to the unknowable you just might miss the joy that is staring you right in the face. As I went for my run this AM, I found myself getting angry thinking about him and how he got "here" until I forced myself to be in my present which is an amazing fall day, surrounded by fall leaves, deer, turkeys, very loud birds, not sure what was up with them today, and crazy busy squirrels and the dogs that love to chase them. I could have missed all that, and so could you, so just don't! Love and light, Lisa
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LL: I wanted to touch on your post first.
First, I understand the futility we all feel at times, and then the hope, and then the despair, and then... the cycles of the LBS...
One thing which "the books" DO tell us is that whether MLC or WAS, the techniques of the LBS remain the same...
But I want to submit that IT DOES MATTER whether they are MLC or WAS, in respect to time. Time is crucial... Because if a betrayer is a WAS, they may have characteristics of MLC, such as certain PDs or depression, etc... But their thoughts are otherwise fairly clear. They have come to a conclusion that the M is not savable and they are intent on moving out, when they feel it is safe to, and often with at the very least, quasi rational plan and time frame.
In that regard, the positive actions of the LBS is imperative NOW. The WAS is not in the so called MLC "fog" and so there will be no "awakening" and realization of the damage done. They are aware of the damage and are to the best of their ability, probably trying to minimize the damage along the way. And once everything is done, they won't be looking back, whether they left in anger or they left in what they feel is the best peace they feel they could muster.
Of course, no one can see the future, so there is no such thing as NEVER. But there will be no real catalyst to change the mind of the WAS. In the same way that anyone who has had an R late in their teen years or otherwise early in their lives and that R ended and a reconnection attempt is made 10, 15, maybe 20 years later... and there simply remains "nothing there"...
This I know. I have made three reconnects with exGFs... prior to M... just the usual "hey, haven't seen you in a long time" and then over time, reaquainting with them and then, mutually choosing to try to see if the "spark" was still there... and it wasn't... it just wasn't... and I remained friends with these ladies, until I got M and to honour my W's insecurities, I severed comm with them...
So to restate, a WAS's mind is no different than any "normal" person. They made a choice, regardless how we may feel about our vows and the intended longevity in which we intended to keep those vows. If they choose to move on, it is a choice based on some combination of reasons, that any other sane person would choose, like the choice an LBS might finally face and make, of no longer standing... Or the spouse who, while not directly or dangerously abused, can no longer live with nor tolerate the actions of an addict...
An MLCer who "awakens" may still feel firm in their decision, but they still may have to resolve (or will resolve unconsciously) whether their decision to move on really is a good decision, as the fog lifts and their heads clear... and so I suspect may be more inclined to give the M a second look at that time... So long as they don't remember the truly "bad" things the LBS may (or may not have) done...
KWIM?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh also, LL... I hear you about the H who is in replay for 10 years... I know someone similar...
One thing about PDs or depression, etc... they may always be present, or they may occur by way of some trigger, a toxin introduced to the body, PTSD, a hormonal change... and these PDs become chronic. 10 years in replay seems... interesting... I'm sure no one knows for sure how long replay can last and as RCR and others can attest, a frightened or resistant MLCer will run back into the tunnel, and potentially replay, if they get scared and chronically want to avoid their daemons...
One friend of mine was a great man, husband, dad... very successful in his job... and then... he started acting odd, drinking lots, affair, many symptoms of MLC... and then the onset of depression so severe it pretty much put him on the street, after his D, loss of job, and other losses... and I believe it was truly about 15 years later, he is finally recovered. Although his M is long over and likely neither he nor his X would ever consider R. The cause... was actually a head injury... and it was finally found he had a bone fragment in his brain... after recovery from the surgery, thankfully the damage was not severe, and he has pretty much made a full recovery...
Again, what might appear to be MLC, may not be...
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So, Kaffe, would the fact that many of our spouses have not identified what we would term as "divorceable offenses" come into play based on your observations? I don't think many sane people would leave a H and kids because the H liked Britney Spears. Or becaue the H liked comic books or wrestling or didn't age well (all reasons my W has given). I know I'm far from perfect, but not as bad as what she is making me out to be. Does a WAS make mountains out of molehills or base decisions on sane concepts?
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I don't think many sane people would leave a H and kids because the H liked Britney Spears.
Now that would be funny on divorce petition. Cited unreasonable behaviour on grounds of liking Britney Spears.
honour
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So, Kaffe, would the fact that many of our spouses have not identified what we would term as "divorceable offenses" come into play based on your observations? I don't think many sane people would leave a H and kids because the H liked Britney Spears. Or becaue the H liked comic books or wrestling or didn't age well (all reasons my W has given). I know I'm far from perfect, but not as bad as what she is making me out to be. Does a WAS make mountains out of molehills or base decisions on sane concepts?
Thundarr, I believe that is the relevant and pressing question, here...
A WAS... a person "desperate" enough to leave an M, will make up reasons to leave an M, no matter how sane they might otherwise be...
What was the WAS's reason to M in the first place? Were they simply caught up in the hormones? Were they drunk and "agreed" to a 4am M in Las Vegas? Were they at a transition at the time of M and made some personality changes which, now... years later... they find they really do not like... they realize, after all these years that they really do not want to tolerate the H who goes hunting with his buddies every spring and fall, because while they THOUGHT they could tolerate hunting, they really want to believe that meat comes from the store and some factory and not from a living animal... and they choose to become vegan...
People don't have to be MLC to change their minds... people change their minds and make course corrections throughout their lives...
And the person who becomes less and less tolerant of something they THOUGHT they could live with but really can't... well... these people may try to "break it to the LBS, gently..." But if the LBS really is slow to take the hint, or begins to behave like many LBS are want to... clinging, begging, crying... well, the WAS MIGHT give them another change, but it might be just as likely that they will become desperate themselves, and start making up excuses... lame or not... in order to use the LBS's anger as a vehicle to agree to the sep and ultimately the D...
It's in the nature of humans to do what they might, outside of their comfort zone... outside of their character... in order to escape something they truly feel is toxic...
So the question remains... Are they "lying" (in desperation)...? Or are they crazy (in MLC)...?
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From the articles
Key Components of a Midlife Crisis
•Depression - Covert & Overt
•The Urge to Abandon
•Infidelity
•Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
•Personality Changes or Mood Swings
•Depression
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A WAS... a person "desperate" enough to leave an M, will make up reasons to leave an M, no matter how sane they might otherwise be...
People don't have to be MLC to change their minds... people change their minds and make course corrections throughout their lives...
As an intellectual debate, I'm sure that one could argue the logic does not necessarily follow...
But one thing is for certain... WAS leave their M... just as determined as someone who is MLC...
And again, that's where, such as in the example above, that the LBS really needs to clear their heads and figure out how to "be the change" that they have gleaned from the complaints and concerns of the WAS as soon as possible and if they truly want to save their M, they will make changes that they feel are appropriate and that they can live with and become the better spouse and parent and stick the changes and make them real... so that the WAS can notice and believe those changes... and that possibly, they will reconsider...
Time is VERY important dependent on WAS or MLC...
An LBS has lots of time, even post D, to make changes, become a great person, and if the spouse in MLC comes out of the tunnel, they will notice and might come to the conclusion that they want to R... 5 years down the road...
A WAS... it appears to me... has made their choice and has been working diligently to set in motion the method by which to leave for potentially years prior to BD... and BD might appears just as "out of the blue" as the BD of a person in MLC... and to the LBS... perhaps just as un-rational or unreasonable...
The reasons...? Maybe not so much... People can be pretty creative when it comes to making up reasons and excuses why we do or do not want to do something... like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane, for example...
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From the articles
Key Components of a Midlife Crisis
•Depression - Covert & Overt
•The Urge to Abandon
•Infidelity
•Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
•Personality Changes or Mood Swings
•Depression
Yes, DGU... it's important to look at the big picture here and the multiple facets of the components and facets of MLC... and how difficult it is to try to distinguish between the rational and irrational actions and thoughts of a person... For the same reason I suspect that the medical community can't or won't place MLC in the text books...
People who are in transitional times... that is very real... people who end up in crisis, which revolve around these transitional periods, are truly in crisis... it is very real...
I believe I read somewhere that in some cases, MLC is actually noticeable or described as such only AFTER the fact... I can't quote the source, but it's something that stuck in my mind...
Maybe this discussion really is moot... for idle conversation or animated discussions over tea and crumpets...
As LL indicated, it doesn't really matter... well, maybe it DOES matter, but really... does it really matter...
What we most certainly understand is, WAS or MLC... the techniques is the same...
And perhaps it needs to be understood that, regardless of which, the actions of the LBS regarding their own personal growth and journey, should begin as immediately as possible...
And the while the reasons will most likely be relevant (unless the WAS is exaggerating or lying in order to soften the blow or force the issue) because the reasons of a WAS are real whereas the reasons a MLCer gives could just as easily be bogus and send us on wild goose chases...
Making real, positive, permanent changes in the LBS is the important part, and making changes that aren't true to us, no matter how much we want to save the M, is simply a sign of co-dependence in the LBS...
IDK...
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Kaffe, I see what you mean - I look at my sitch and even at BD H was not "sure" of what he was doing. He came back to me for a month and at the end of the month I was the one who told him to leave because i did not understand his bizarre behaviour - desperate to hang on to me one minute, distant, cold and unfeeling the next - this went on for a month. If I had known about MLC (at the time I assumed he was simply a WAS btw because it did not really occur to me that H was having a mlc ) i may have behaved differently, but then again i was so hurt and upset, it may not have made a difference.
i agree that someone who has decided on an affair as an exit strategy may not show a range of behaviours that a person in crisis shows...
for instance, an inability to look after the needs of the children that they leave behind...
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But I want to submit that IT DOES MATTER whether they are MLC or WAS, in respect to time. Time is crucial... Because if a betrayer is a WAS, they may have characteristics of MLC, such as certain PDs or depression, etc... But their thoughts are otherwise fairly clear. They have come to a conclusion that the M is not savable and they are intent on moving out, when they feel it is safe to, and often with at the very least, quasi rational plan and time frame.
In that regard, the positive actions of the LBS is imperative NOW. The WAS is not in the so called MLC "fog" and so there will be no "awakening" and realization of the damage done. They are aware of the damage and are to the best of their ability, probably trying to minimize the damage along the way. And once everything is done, they won't be looking back, whether they left in anger or they left in what they feel is the best peace they feel they could muster.
I'm not sure what you are getting at; in both cases, it is important to work on the detachment, or forgiveness, or 180s, or whatever it is you need to do NOW. Not for the sake of whether or not you can change your spouse's mind, or speed them through the tunnel, but because it will make you healthier and happier NOW.
It's entirely possible -- likely, even -- that a non-MLCing walkaway spouse can have a similar awakening. It may not be as dramatic as some of the "coming out of the tunnel" stories that we hear, but just as your spouse grew to love you, then married you, then grew away from you (MLCing or not), they can swing back towards you once again.
* Living by themselves may not be as fulfilling as they thought.
* The dating scene isn't very promising.
* Their finances are a lot more precarious.
* They still interact with you because of kids, friends and family, or social or work-related obligations.
If you want to put it as a (simplified) rational proposition, there are two cases:
1) The spouse is leaving because they are in an unhappy relationship. The window for which you have an opportunity to change their mind closes in a year.
2) The spouse is going through MLC. The timeframe for this particular MLC is 3-4 years before they come out of the tunnel.
In those two cases, it is a rational decision to do the self-work now, so that you can try to beat the 1-year deadline. If it is MLC, then you have an extra 2-3 years to make the changes and improvements a lasting habit.
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The difference between lying and crazy is hugely relevant to me. If I were convinced that my W had truly thought out her decision to leave over a period of time and was making a rational, conscious choice then I would have little to no interest in standing. Truly, it is the times that I feel she is lucid and of a sound mind that I give up hope and just want to walk away and start playing the huge, huge field that is out there. Then, in the times that I don't feel she is in her right mind I want to stand for her and for the M as I would NEVER consider abandoning her if she were ill. In other words, if she just honestly doesn't want to be with me then I don't want her. IF she's nuts then I will wait to see if she returns to sanity before making a decision. The litmus test for me will probably be if she is clear enough to carry through with the D. I can't say for sure, but that will probably be it for me. The discovery of a true OM might as well but I'm not at that point yet.
The fact that she's a different person even to the kids really makes me lean toward MLC as I could find no logical reason for a sane person to completely change personalities to such a degree.
So, DGU, no infidelity = no MLC? That wasn't present in your case as I remember either. So, how many of the factors have to be present.
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I want to toss in something else here, too... SS, I understand what you are saying, for sure... I think your 2 case proposition is accurate...
Sometimes when we're looking for an answer, we might loose sight of what the question truly is...
I know OP says this a lot, probably others as well... "It is great to stand, just make sure that it's not 'still'..."...
Thundarr, true enough, there's something going on in each individuals psyche that we all go through in order to make decisions that "work for us"... while all decisions and choices made by an individual are ABOUT that individual, there are... extraneous affects of those choices and we may or may not forget that the input and feedback of others who are will be affected by our choices, should be taken into consideration...
Such as our choice to stand... and for how long...
For example, if a spouse is not MLC... does a LBS simply "give up" after... say... one year post D...
In other cases, like Thundarr expresses... how much weight does one give to obvious lying...? Whether that be blatant lying or lying by omission or any other form... We have a tendency, not sure rightly or wrongly, to want to believe that when our spouse could be so disrespectful, that we want to excuse it by suggesting an irrational mind of MLC... even though we understand that, MLC or not, poor choices are poor choices and... we then need to choose, as the betrayed LBS, our ability to forgive...
What do we trust? How do we trust?
Like the joke about the litmus test above, a WAS would believe we hate them and the MLC might think we're pursuing... our choice to accept a truth of a WAS that they want out... or misunderstanding and believing the claim of the MLCer that they want out...
We choose to stand, in the face of our WAS or MLCer "executive decisions"... but do we stand in denial... the "fool" as it were... or alternatively, do we exit on false information...?
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Thundarr
"So, DGU, no infidelity = no MLC? That wasn't present in your case as I remember either."
My wife was not actively involved with an affair at bomb drop....BUT part of bomb drop was her telling me she had every intention of finding who she was supposed to be with, and wanted me to do the same.
"The litmus test for me will probably be if she is clear enough to carry through with the D."
It's not that uncommon for MLCers to carry through with the divorce, so I'm not sure a divorce represents clarity. I am divorced, and her Boomerang behavior continues. Is that clarity? Remember too, that once the MLCer is completely submerged in the tunnel, they do feel certain of the decision.....for now and for quite a while.
In my case, every one of the factors were present except the active infidelity.
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Before all this happened in my life I had heard of the term Mid Life crisis but I didn't know anything about it.
When my W first returned to the country after I found out about the adultery and I had spoken to her in the car on way home from airport and briefly at home she was just so strange I asked her "[insert W's name] are you well?" She replied, "I don't know".
So whether we call it WAS or MLC we can only judge and decide from what we see and hear are our Ws/Hs do and say. On one occasion right near the start my daughter was very upset with her mother and was asking her questions as to why she had done what she had done and W became almost hysterical to the point where I became concerned for W's mental well-being .
So if WAS is a sane person making a mature, adult decision to leave a relationship then my W is not a WAS. She was making a decision to leave the relationship but nothing about it seemed sane, adult or mature.
What she is like now I have no idea because she is so far away and total NC. The children don't see or communicate with her either. Would a healthy person effectively divorce themselves from their own children? We can only hope she comes to no harm.
Each case is individual, some may be WAS, and others depressed, unstable and unwell, what we call MLC. Only you can decide for your own case.
honour
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Really interesting and great conversation...
So now, what if we add in the filter of, "Believe none of what they say and only 50% of what they do."
What are the actual ACTIONS of a MLC as compared to a WAS? Is there anything there that can offer up clues?
Certainly, we know that both WAS and MLC can have affairs, or not...
We also know that anyone, at any time, can choose to change their friends or their hair or their wardrobe or their car...
I believe it's a given that like with the changes of a LBS, it's consistency over time... is there a parallel in the WAS or MLC where consistency over time in actions, shows a pattern?
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Maybe I'm the only one with an obviously crazy MLCer... I just don't get why you are overthinking this so much.... were your spouses even REMOTELY CAPABLE OF LEAVING THEIR KIDS and not even contacting or communicating with them prior to BD???? Really? Cuz mine was NOT even capable of such behavior.
MID LIFE CRISIS is the ONLY explanation.... read Jim Conway's book and hear from the horses mouth what it feels like to be in a Mid Life CRISIS, then see if you are still confused.
I do understand that people under stress will do things we don't expect, but think of all the divorced couples you know..... People wanting out of a marriage, even those who are cheating don't behave CRAZY!! They get angry, they get over each other, they get a divorce, they move on to someone else. And unless you married PURE TRASH all those years ago, they see their kids on a regular basis. Period.
People who are depressed are MENTALLY ILL to some degree. That's how they can lay in bed all day like a zombie, unable to function....That's how a formerly good mother can kill her own babies... cuz she's gone off the deep end. That's how a man can kill his family and then turn the gun on himself..... people do these things all the time, but they are not in their right minds. MLC is a break from reality for at least part of the time.
I would challenge you to discover if you think WAS is a form of temporary mental illness... a crisis of some sort.
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NO LG - I have an obviously crazy MLCer. He is crazy in what he does because he SAYS all the right things. He just RARELY follows through or does the right thing. He was a dedicated father before all of this. Now he doesn't call his kids for days, sometimes weeks and he somehow justifies this to himself (and this is a whole year after BD - if he was just moving on as a WAS because he was done with me, surely he would not be doing this to the children?) He breaks down and cries and says that he misses them, but then does not contact them! It is crazy weird. And he is totally controlled by OW (if he was wanting out of a boring, stagnant marriage but was mentally of sound mind, why would he tolerate her obsessive and controlling behaviour and for so long?)
My H even stated that he "could not handle being alone". Right from the horses mouth. His mother who would defend him to the death thinks there is something very wrong with him and that he is not "better yet".
As far as standing goes, though, I don't think it is all that relevant. We are standing to heal, to learn and to forgive so that we can move forward with our lives with or without the MLCer/WAS. So that we can embark on new healthy Rs knowing that we are whole and that we have addressed the parts of ourselves that were dependent, or broken, in our marriages, so we don't take them with us on the rest of our journey through life...
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I know I overthink it because I don't have an obviously crazy exH. He seems mostly sane and he has not truly abandoned his kids, in fact, he texts or calls them about a dozen times a day--I do think that's a different kind of crazy, but that's another convo. He has a very high profile and responsible job and he performs well at it. And his affair down is not obvious, in fact, on paper she is a huge step up from me.
And that is the part that always made me question a stand. If he is sane and I really am just not the right person for him, or a narc finally showing his true colors, then why bother, but I always come back to--if he really is crazy and hurt and not in his right mind, then I should be there for him. But there is no litmus test. And it also has to do with how much of me do I need to fix? I have self-esteem issues, for sure, but they have gotten better and I will work on them for the rest of my life. But WAS means his criticisms might hold water, MLC means he doesn't even know. Was I really making his life too hard, did I keep him from too many things he liked to do, was I too strong and independent, are those things I should work on--who knows?
Yes LG, I am jealous evrey single day of the people who have truly crazy MLCers, how sad that my life has come to that? But in reality, I can't dwell on it, he left, and now I just get to make the best of the considerable assets I still have--so I am on my way to the winery--surely there are answers there!
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LG and LL I got the old "I'm too good for him" He said I deserved better and down he went. So hard so so hard. Clearly a snafu inside his cranium.............How re-assuring for me. ::)
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What are the actual ACTIONS of a MLC as compared to a WAS? Is there anything there that can offer up clues?
Yes, as has already been explained some LBS see their W/H behaving in a way that indicates they are mentally unwell others don't see those behaviours.
What are you trying to establish?
honour
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Yes LG, that is exactly it... there is CRAZY MLC... without a doubt, no questions...
And then, there are people who look at the signs and... can glean some form of crisis, even though it's not blatant...
If MLC was simply diagnosed as crazy behaviour, then it's possible that many who are labeling their spouse or person they know as MLC, are simply making huge stretches to misdiagnose... like suggesting that someone who is forgetful is suffering from Alzheimer's...
On the far side of the WAS spectrum, the WAS KNOWS they want a D... when confronted, while there may be initial denial, it appears to take a short period of time (relatively) for them to admit that they are unhappy in the M, they are not blaming the other spouse for all the wrongs in their life, and they admit they want a D, and they understand the damage... "Sorry, I know you hurt and I know this will be difficult for the kids and we should do everything we can to help the kids work through this, including counseling... I just need to move on in a new direction in my life..." and so it goes...
In the grey areas that many LBS find themselves, there's no absolute, nutbag crazy... there's no child abandonment... there's no insistence that the devil is telling them to buy the porsche and install a water bed in the camper...
My W for example, 11 months after sep... 12 mo after I found OM1 in our bed with her, under the quilt with her, although he was fully clothed, and she made all sorts of justifications for it and never once... cannot... say that maybe that wasn't such a good idea... rather suggests that if I had some woman with me in the same situation, it would be no big deal... this coming from someone I know has HUGE jealousy / trust issues... someone who simply says that she doesn't feel M, that she doesn't want the expense of a leg sep (which she has now paid for; because apparently I asked for it, which I absolutely did not; and only one month before we could be D)... and that she repeated told me that she could have lived separate lives, never leg sep nor D, indefinitely... in an open R... and that I should see if the grass is greener...
This does not sound like something I would consider "normal"... but it isn't... CRAZY... it's... just not... "normal"... ??? I think...
There's no clingy... there's no words expressing undying love and yet having an A... there's no fancy toys... there's no... excessive... spending... there's no running around topless at parties...
But she's definitely... rethinking life... her life... and is behaving... a little more selfish than... she did... even though she certainly had narc and borderline tendencies, prior to BD... it's like, she just put our M on hold... put it in a box on a shelf (like her ring) and forgot about it... and avoids any R talk like the plague...
WAS...? MLC...? ???
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Kaffe, I kind of think WAS would appear civilized andd together. Not all tattered and swirling. MLC=Confusion Is what you are saying WAS don't seem confused?
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What are the actual ACTIONS of a MLC as compared to a WAS? Is there anything there that can offer up clues?
Yes, as has already been explained some LBS see their W/H behaving in a way that indicates they are mentally unwell others don't see those behaviours.
What are you trying to establish?
honour
The real question at hand is, not to establish what is obvious MLC behaviours... there's no question about that... none whatsoever... without a doubt, when we see crazy MLC, we know... crazy MLC...
So MUST it be crazy to be MLC... because if so, then I am not entirely sure a list of 30 signs of MLC or establishing PD traits would be necessary... Sorry if that comes across as pretentious... I don't know another way of saying, "if MLC is really that obvious... then what's the questions...?"
KWIM?
Kaffe, I kind of think WAS would appear civilized andd together. Not all tattered and swirling. MLC=Confusion Is what you are saying WAS don't seem confused?
Yes, that's part of it, MB... It is that... point where, and I think we all understand that MLC is not that simplistic, but when making a quick call, it's easier to just point to a single symptom...
Crazy MLC is certainly confused... Crazy MLC is certainly... crazy...
But "normal" people... perhaps a WAS... can be confused... as can the LBS... who is apparently not going through MLC...
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No LG, you're not the one with an obviously crazy MLCer. We have no children but prior to left (husband left before BD) he was always caring, woudl never let me go throught troubles.
kaffe, a WAS or a LBS can be confused but they are not monster. They may me angry, not monster. We all can have monster for a short time, but if it last for ages, and together with the other odd beahviours, it is more than a WAS.
You've said yourself, if you've seen MLC you know it.
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12 mo after I found OM1 in our bed with her, under the quilt with her, although he was fully clothed, and she made all sorts of justifications for it and never once... cannot... say that maybe that wasn't such a good idea... rather suggests that if I had some woman with me in the same situation, it would be no big deal...
:o :o
This does not sound like something I would consider "normal"... but it isn't... CRAZY... it's... just not... "normal"... I think...
Kaffe..... this IS crazy.....it's crazy.... think about it... with all of the horrible things people can do in a relationship, this is crazy.... this thinking there is nothing wrong with being under a quilt with some guy!! Was she HIGH??? Cuz if she was WASTED, well, I've seen really WASTED people justify all sorts of stupid things... like "who are you gonna believe.... me or your lying eyes?".... it's crazy, for an adult... maybe not crazy for a teenager busted out by their Mom or Dad.... IT'S CRAZY!!! Do you not want her to be crazy so you can justify leaving her? Cuz you can leave her any time... no apologies necessary... sick or not, you get to leave if it's not what you choose to sign on for... You know she's not herself....
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Ya know, for my 2c worth, this is all pretty heavy. I think I need to dust off my intellectual cap ! LOL. I'm also getting more and more confused and dishearted reading the growing chain
However, the quotes below from Still Standing gives clarity for me
It's entirely possible -- likely, even -- that a non-MLCing walkaway spouse can have a similar awakening. It may not be as dramatic as some of the "coming out of the tunnel" stories that we hear, but just as your spouse grew to love you, then married you, then grew away from you (MLCing or not), they can swing back towards you once again.
* Living by themselves may not be as fulfilling as they thought.
* The dating scene isn't very promising.
* Their finances are a lot more precarious.
* They still interact with you because of kids, friends and family, or social or work-related obligations.
If you want to put it as a (simplified) rational proposition, there are two cases:
1) The spouse is leaving because they are in an unhappy relationship. The window for which you have an opportunity to change their mind closes in a year.
2) The spouse is going through MLC. The timeframe for this particular MLC is 3-4 years before they come out of the tunnel.
I know there is no one size fits all, but I think there is clarity in what Standing writes.
Just my 2c, thats all folks :)
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:o :o
This does not sound like something I would consider "normal"... but it isn't... CRAZY... it's... just not... "normal"... I think...
Kaffe..... this IS crazy.....it's crazy.... think about it...
erm... ok, so I'm getting the feeling that you believe this could be MLC, LG...? ???
lol, ok... the way you frame it, it certainly seems a little more than out of norm... :-\
I'm joking, I really get what you are saying... in the moment, I was... well... you know how people do that... straight face that comedian side kicks do... that was me... I walked in... stutter stepped as I looked at the two of them... turned, grabbed a shirt out of the dresser and walked out... she came right out behind me, claiming that the other 5 adults that had stayed the night had just been in the room and left only 30 seconds prior... *shrug*... and of course, enabling friend was right there with her rationalizing the sitch and what I DIDN'T see...
I get that is the reaction of a teenager busted by a parent... and I get the crazy in the rationalization... but I'm thinking...
ok, am I really in denial...? ??? I think to myself that this could simply be a WAS that somehow forgot that I was in the house and would need to grab a shirt before I went to work... and was really innocent in the bed with this guy...
Is that called PTSD... or co-dependence that I'm trying to make the crazy bad... look not so bad...? But really, couldn't a WAS do the same and accidentally get caught in a compromised position and try to deny, justify and rationalize...?
But then, I guess... wouldn't a sane, rational person go into the... "OMG, I am SO SORRY!!! It was wrong! I did not mean it!!! I will never do that again!!!" Unless, they had already chosen out... by way of OM... and she'd simply say, "I want out! Bye!"
~~~~~~~~~
OK... yeah... I guess that's kinda crazy... :-\ I'll tell you thought, things certainly didn't get better after that... that's when the blaming really started... the more overt monster arrived... I was gone 25 days later...
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oh crap... now that I think about it... I never knew my W prior to her R with D13's bio dad... She was in an abusive R, physically and emotionally... and then ends up PG with D13 at the end and they two of them began a very co-D R...
hmmmm...
Maybe it's my W who had PTSD... because she'd always shown signs of borderline and narc for as far as I'd known her... and there were little things that I later learned from MIL about things that my W said about her mom, but her mom would be all like... ???
oh yeah... and OM3's first name is the same as D13's bio dad...
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MLC vs. vanilla WAS?
This is a very good topic and how I wish I could really add to what has been already written. It is very interesting because the line between the 2 could be found not on the leaving party, but to more on the one left behind.
Having said that... is it possible also that because the distinction of the 2 is really slight that "I" or "me" as the left behind would want to believe either label due to where I'm at in my own journey in finding oneself? Is it possible that in the early stages of my journey that I could lean towards labeling my ex-spouse as MLC rather than WAS because the possibility of coming back is a lot greater if I chose to label her as MLC rather than WAS?
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Is that called PTSD... or co-dependence that I'm trying to make the crazy bad... look not so bad...?
I'm not a qualified counselor, but for what I get paid around here.... I do have an opinion!! It's PTSD. 8)
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What if we try an compare a bank robbery to a WAS/MLCer.
There is a kind of robber who thinks it up in a panic fails miserably and kidnaps a hostage for good measure. Ends up wholed up in the bank sweating and cornered and confused.
Then there is Brad Pitt in Oceans 11.................that might be WAS and the 1st scenario would be MLC :o :o
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Mamma.... that's actually a very good analogy!! And I can give a for instance about bank robberies since the one I work at has been robbed twice in the last year! Both times, the perp was caught the next day... scenario actually goes like this.... drug addict walks into the bank with gloves on and a hoodie in the middle of summer.... gives a note to the teller saying he has a gun and don't give him the bait money.... he drew a PICTURE of a gun in the note, I guess in case the teller was illiterate, (which isn't so far fetched given our pay scale).... teller gives him all the money in her drawer which is around $300 because we are so high volume, all the cash goes immediately into an automatic electronic vault at our side... perp runs from bank on foot only to be caught within 24 hours.
You're right, it hardly compares withe very realistic and entertaining Oceans 11, LOL!! By the way, you are like a modern day Erma Bombeck!! I can't compete!! ;D
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Although he says he is WAS, I still believe it may be MLC. H says "I only stayed with you because of the children".
"It's one thing to feel unfulfilled in a relationship; it's another to change how you dress, or develop a whole new social life, or dive into addictive behaviors. Also, people who are just in an unhappy relationship don't run away from their family and friends, or quit their job."
And I will add... move to the other side of the country!
Monsterish...
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What if we try an compare a bank robbery to a WAS/MLCer.
There is a kind of robber who thinks it up in a panic fails miserably and kidnaps a hostage for good measure. Ends up wholed up in the bank sweating and cornered and confused.
Then there is Brad Pitt in Oceans 11.................that might be WAS and the 1st scenario would be MLC :o :o
Yep, first case is MLC, second WAS. It is a pity that the MLC robber takes ages to get realise the mess he made and negociate the way out of the bank...
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I thought this site was/is for LBS whose spouses are in MLC......if other people think their spouse is a WAS shouldn’t they be posting on another site...........as this site does the total opposite to the infidelity site.......this site encourages you to stand but not to stand still as mentioned infidelity sites encourages the LBS to leave the WAS sorry ass...........................i think if i was a newbie i would be put off by reading this thread it seems to go against most things that are mentioned in the articles and what the aims of this forum is for.........when i came here it was because i knew after reading the infidelity forums my h wasn’t just a WAS....... my gut/instincts told me there was more to it and the way my h and many other MLCers are acting is insane my instinct was right and ive seen with my own eyes to believe it....xxxxxxxx
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WGH, I do not know which Infidelity sites suggest that the LBS proceed with D with prejudice...
Much of the information I have read with regards to Infidelity are M friendly... The LBS may or may not choose D after infidelity... It really depends on whether the LBS feels that is a deal breaker... and that is regardless of the reasons... MLC does not excuse infidelity... not by any stretch...
The understanding remains that regardless of whether the spouse is MLC or WAS... the LBS work is exactly the same... and MLC or WAS, there may or there may not be infidelity... there is not always infidelity with MLC...
Let me repeat and only because newbies might be reading this... MLC or WAS... THE WORK IS THE SAME, regardless of whether there is infidelity... it is still up to you, fellow LBSers, to choose to forgive the infidelity, because labeling our spouses as MLC will not fix the pain in our hearts that is caused by infidelity... that is up to us to accept or to walk away from, individually...
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i think if i was a newbie i would be put off by reading this thread it seems to go against most things that are mentioned in the articles and what the aims of this forum is for.........when i came here it was because i knew after reading the infidelity forums my h wasn’t just a WAS....... my gut/instincts told me there was more to it and the way my h and many other MLCers are acting is insane my instinct was right and ive seen with my own eyes to believe it....xxxxxxxx
Yeah, this thread bummed me out a lot. I want to be supportive of everyone and read all of the threads, but I'm realizing now that I am not in a place where I can do that and stay healthy emotionally myself. I realized looking back over the last couple of days that my outlook became extremely negative after reading through it. But I'm impressionable that way. Although I'm still following along, I'm just skimming now. :)
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Let me repeat and only because newbies might be reading this... MLC or WAS... THE WORK IS THE SAME, regardless of whether there is infidelity... it is still up to you, fellow LBSers, to choose to forgive the infidelity, because labeling our spouses as MLC will not fix the pain in our hearts that is caused by infidelity... that is up to us to accept or to walk away from, individually...
Yes, the work is the same. But, and this may shock you, infidelity is not the worst. At least not for me. Mistreatment, abandonment, projection, monster, financial deprivation, been dragged to a fault divorce, having somenone that as always protecting you attacking you, are all worst for me. Not saying infidelity does nor hurt, it does, but the abandonment is, for me, really the worst thing.
One way or another THE WORK IS THE SAME.
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Yeah, this thread bummed me out a lot. I want to be supportive of everyone and read all of the threads, but I'm realizing now that I am not in a place where I can do that and stay healthy emotionally myself. I realized looking back over the last couple of days that my outlook became extremely negative after reading through it. But I'm impressionable that way. Although I'm still following along, I'm just skimming now. :)
WP: What specifically is giving you concern?
I'd like to explain something to anyone who is here, newbie and vet, alike...
Again, let me be as clear as I possibly can... I really believed... I really WANTED to believe my W was a WAS...
Regarding infidelity, let me be very clear... I really believed it was a deal breaker... I have come to understand... it does not have to be...
Now that it appears more likely that my W is MLC... I still feel the same hurt regarding the infidelity... MLC or WAS... the feelings of the LBS DOES NOT CHANGE... we still have to work through the pain...
Why do I want my W to be WAS? Because of the issue of time... that is it... that is all... I do not know that I am strong enough to wait the many years that it might take for my W to come out of the tunnel... not knowing that she will be someone whom I would want to spend the rest of my life with...
And I... am generally an A type personality, who thrives on risk...
So from this LBS to the rest of you... I can honestly say that now that it has become more apparent that my W is likely MLC... I am feeling a lot more comfortable with a choice that I did not like... that... I will probably file D once I am legally allowed...
Am I abandoning my poor, sick, MLC wife... shame on me... how could I do that...? Well... if/when she ever comes out of the tunnel... we can always take another look at a new R... if we are both in a position to do so...
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Yes, the work is the same. But, and this may shock you, infidelity is not the worst. At least not for me. Mistreatment, abandonment, projection, monster, financial deprivation, been dragged to a fault divorce, having somenone that as always protecting you attacking you, are all worst for me. Not saying infidelity does nor hurt, it does, but the abandonment is, for me, really the worst thing.
One way or another THE WORK IS THE SAME.
Yes, Anne! Exactly!
All of those "other" things an LBS must endure... those are terrible things... and MLC does not excuse them... it is up to the LBS to work through them and decide... are they prepared to stand through all that...
Betrayal... It has many, many faces...
+ lies and deception
+ infidelity
+ abuse in it's many forms
+ abandonment
+ etc, etc, etc...
These are the things that happen in BOTH MLC and WAS...
The work... remains the same...
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Hi there are plenty of infidelity sites that encourage the LBS to throw the spouse out if the spouse is committing infidelity ..........i didn’t mention Divorce...this site is for those that want to stand and by standing i mean GAL working on ourselves and allowing the MLCer to continue with their journey.....this site advocates not throwing your mlcer out...................that is what i mean....if you go to some infidelity sites you are ripped to bits for allowing the affair partner to continue living with you......here you are not judged, which i believe this site was created for......yes its healthy to have debates but not when newbies question whether what they thought to be mlc is not.........sometimes this a persons last hope and if it helps people to believe in mlc who are we to take that away xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Oh no worries Kaffe,
I think we are all drawn to different threads depending on where we are currently at on our journey. While we all need to rant and question at one point or another, right now it is just hard for me to read some of those threads and not be affected after awhile. The energy is just so raw, if you know what I mean. Please don't take my comments the wrong way.
Also, I have been having some personal reactions to some of the threads started by men. I realized that they were triggering memories of when my mom left my dad, and the hurt and anger that I read on the board here was reminding me of that horrible past situation, of having to watch my dad go through many of the same emotions. I can relate to so much of what is written at times, but from the perspective of a child watching from the outside, if that makes sense.
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Why do I want my W to be WAS? Because of the issue of time... that is it... that is all... I do not know that I am strong enough to wait the many years that it might take for my W to come out of the tunnel... not knowing that she will be someone whom I would want to spend the rest of my life with...
And I... am generally an A type personality, who thrives on risk...
So from this LBS to the rest of you... I can honestly say that now that it has become more apparent that my W is likely MLC... I am feeling a lot more comfortable with a choice that I did not like... that... I will probably file D once I am legally allowed...
Am I abandoning my poor, sick, MLC wife... shame on me... how could I do that...? Well... if/when she ever comes out of the tunnel... we can always take another look at a new R... if we are both in a position to do so...
Now you're starting to feel like I do. The time...the time MLC takes...I'm on the star of year six and nowhere to see the end...Even if, must say, now it looks like the end is near than the star...But there is still that thing, even with husband out of the MLC don't know ifhe would be a person I would like to be with. Current husband is not.
Are you really abadoning your wife, or are you divorcing but being fair with her? There is a difference. At least, to me, there is.
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WGH, MLC can, in my opinion, be fairly stated aside from WAS. The monster, the crazy things. Anyone that has lievd it knows it is just no a WAS.
Don't know how long you have been on this, nor how is your spouse. Some, and RCR writes about it, only pull out of the tunnel if they feel the marriage is really over. Divorce included. You can remarry, later on, if that is what you want.
I don't like the infidelity sites nor the other MLC sites. They are all very agressive and rude. Infidelity, in itself, is nor a deal breaker for me. But the unfaithful spouse needs to be up to work on the damage and the marriage.
kaffe, I did not knew, if I could stand all the things that happened/are still happening. Things just turn out to be that way. It is not even a choise, more like the divorce is dragging, so, I'm still in this.
With me is more, well, so far, survived all this, but would I risk having a future life with husband?... Don't know. We are still in the middle of the second of husband fault divorce processes, so, the storm is not over yet. A lot of healed done, a lot of work done, but there is some that can only be done after present circunstances are over.
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WGH: Oh, OK... I have heard about instances of the LBS being chastised for being compassionate with the betrayer... including being civil, allowing the betrayer to stay in the familial home, being a door mat, as it were...
I do hope that members of this forum are not forgiving infidelity because their MLC spouse is "mentally unstable"... MLC is not an excuse... just as alcohol or other drug use is not an excuse... if our MLC spouse recognized they were suffering from depression... they could get medical help that could "balance" their emotions... perhaps then they might opt out of some of the choices they make...
I do not... not one bit... change my attitude of holding my W responsible for her choices... any future R... or the continuation of the M... would still require all the "normal" work to restore the M...
I am without a doubt M friendly... and yet, I am prepared to D... perhaps I sound like a hypocrite... who am I to stand in the way of what someone else wants... or alternately, in the case of my W... doesn't want... ie. she does not want to be M... even though she does not want to discuss D... *shrug* tough call...
But I encourage everyone to stand as long as you feel you can... and then... I'd encourage you to try to stand... a little longer... because really... if M wasn't important enough to do... then why do it in the first place... if it was important enough to do... then why not stand for it...? At least, as long as you can... without making choices based on reaction... ie. Do the work... think through things rationally... and THEN... make choices...
WP: I completely understand what you are saying... I am an adult child of Alcoholic Parents... My father is recovered, my mom... she might just now, be recovering... jury still out... I have been witness to things... well... yeah, it's ugly... I've thought sometimes that maybe it would have been better had they D...
And yes, on this board and on another board I'm on... I see some threads from women and I sometimes... well, I have negative reactions... because the words... the thoughts... being stated on their threads are things my W would say to me... similar personality types... and so the triggers hit and sometimes it makes me very angry... and other times, very sad...
A year and a few months later... I'm feeling... better... most of the work done, I have found my peace... the negative emotions are very far between and generally mild... it gets better... :)
Anne: *sigh*... Yes, the time...
Again, I would encourage EVERY LBS to find their courage and strength and compassion... and STAND... for as long as you can... and do the work to better yourself, regardless... do NOT stand still...
Yes Anne, I believe that I am being very fair to my W... I love her... she told me from day one... from the moment that I asked her to marry me, she cautioned me... firmly stated that she was a little... crazy and unstable... hahah... back then... that was part of what I loved about her... :)
I want my W to find her happiness... I know that standing nor moving on will help her find her happiness... she will find her happiness when she does... I M'd her with love and I let her go with love and I will put it all to faith... I wish the best for her...
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I do hope that members of this forum are not forgiving infidelity because their MLC spouse is "mentally unstable"... MLC is not an excuse... just as alcohol or other drug use is not an excuse... if our MLC spouse recognized they were suffering from depression... they could get medical help that could "balance" their emotions... perhaps then they might opt out of some of the choices they make...
I do not... not one bit... change my attitude of holding my W responsible for her choices... any future R... or the continuation of the M... would still require all the "normal" work to restore the M...
I'm not. Always told husband he was responsable for his choices. He disliked to hear that. He kwen, before he left that he was depressed. By then, he had both our GP and his work doctor. I talked with teh work doctor and asked him to have a chat with my husband. Well, his work doctor tryied to talk to him and he run from the doctor. At a certain point he quit his job, and got onother very away from that doctor. Some 7 months after BD, when I was already back to our home town, he talked to me and said, again, he was depressed. Again, he did nothing about it. Did not go to the doctor , did not try to change his life. Zero!
Yes, it would require the "normal" work to restore the marriage. Or even more than the "normal" work.
I am without a doubt M friendly... and yet, I am prepared to D... perhaps I sound like a hypocrite... who am I to stand in the way of what someone else wants... or alternately, in the case of my W... doesn't want... ie. she does not want to be M... even though she does not want to discuss D... *shrug* tough call...
Being M friendly and considering D is not the same that being divorce friendly. Yes, the not want to be married but not want to be divorced... ::)
But I encourage everyone to stand as long as you feel you can... and then... I'd encourage you to try to stand... a little longer... because really... if M wasn't important enough to do... then why do it in the first place... if it was important enough to do... then why not stand for it...? At least, as long as you can... without making choices based on reaction... ie. Do the work... think through things rationally... and THEN... make choices...
Totally agree with you on this one.
A year and a few months later... I'm feeling... better... most of the work done, I have found my peace... the negative emotions are very far between and generally mild... it gets better... :)
Anne: *sigh*... Yes, the time...
Time changes things and, thenm it will change things again. LBS is not still, MLCer is not still. Sometimes it looks like LBS is still but that is not so. We will change, and change, and change again. Even because we get older, we grow both because of the MLC and age.
Yes Anne, I believe that I am being very fair to my W... I love her... she told me from day one... from the moment that I asked her to marry me, she cautioned me... firmly stated that she was a little... crazy and unstable... hahah... back then... that was part of what I loved about her... :)
:)
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Hi Ann BD for me was may 09 MLC started for h way back in 05/06 i new back then something was wrong but i had started university...think this was my own transition......however i was able to enter my transition with positive actions.........my h chose the opposite........he bought the fast car 06.....changed his sense of dress to younger more teenagerish clothes (if that’s a word lol) he started going round with young lads 18- 20 yr olds..........changed his style of music........hated our music insisted that that was outdated and listened to chart music...........he met o/w august 08...........round about this time he cut off family and friends........i although new something was going on needed to concentrate on my studies......which i did and passed with all A's........im happy i did ive got a good career....something that’s invaluable to me since h left and doesn’t give me a penny......my h was and is a multiple returner just as RCR sweetheart was.........and yes your right RCR says the mlcer as to believe the R is over, dead, but she does not advocate divorce........i do not agree with infidelity but it as happened and that’s something i have to forgive if me and h are to R..........i am working on that.........as for the rest of the stuff hes done im also forgiving that too....although it was hard and i never thought i could.....praying to GOD to help me heal and as been my saviour as well as this forum........i also know that one day the fog will start to clear and h will work on his part too..........i know your thinking how do you know that....trust me i know..i know h will come home......ive always felt it.........im seeing so many changes with h and hes finally admitted the issues are within him not me xxxxxx
Kaffe diem...............Hi I also hold my h responsible for his choices........... but im responsible for mine too.......i admit i wasn’t the perfect spouse does that mean i deserve what he did NO it doesn’t but to R means to work on forgiveness and and become the best possible person I can be........lots of people make mistakes its learning not to do the same things that makes the difference ...............xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I do hope that members of this forum are not forgiving infidelity because their MLC spouse is "mentally unstable"... MLC is not an excuse... just as alcohol or other drug use is not an excuse... if our MLC spouse recognized they were suffering from depression... they could get medical help that could "balance" their emotions... perhaps then they might opt out of some of the choices they make...
There are plenty of non-MLCing couples who recover from infidelity. Infidelity doesn't have to mean the end of the marriage, or the inability to create a new marriage, regardless of whether or not MLC is a complicating factor.
(You also seem to be of the notion that depression or addiction is something you can just "get over" or simply choose to do something about. It's not that simple at all.)
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Absolutely, WGH... If any one of us failed to reflect on our own personal responsibilities in our M's, then we have turned our back on the very nature of this work... we cannot HOLD someone responsible... and we also cannot ENCOURAGE responsibility, if we are not responsible ourselves...
And just to touch on something else, WGH... I loved what you said about making mistakes... I find it entertaining that sometimes people feel that if someone makes a mistake once, they are expected to learn from it and never make that same mistake... ;) the nature of humans... well... let's just say that sometimes people seem to have to get burned a few times before the stop putting the wick out with their fingers... and some... never learn... lol
Tolerance... the ability to respect someone... even if they choose to make the same mistake... over... and over... and over.... ;D
SS, I honestly don't know how to respond...
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my gut/instincts told me there was more to it and the way my h and many other MLCers are acting is insane my instinct was right and ive seen with my own eyes to believe it....xxxxxxxx
This is the cruz. We know our loved very well. We have have witnessed what we have witnessed, heard them say what they have said and concluded there is something really "off centre" going on here. You search around looking for answers and you come across something called MLC. You read the accounts of others in the situation. You study all you can and with the evidence you have you draw your conclusions.
In my situation, given the "evidence" I conclude my W is MLC (i.e. unbalanced, depressed, disfunctional, whatever terms you wish to use), and a severe case at that. You decide given the case before you.
Its that simple really.
honour
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This is a projection if one wants to see it as such and an unofficial, personal diagnosis of my W... it actually appears that my W might be borderline or have strong borderline tendencies from the day I met her...
That would make sense that I am not seeing as "abnormal" the "craziness" in what might be her MLC...
Anyhow, just wanted to point out that if a WAS / MLCer actually has (undiagnosed) PDs, that could be a reason why the LBS has difficulty seeing their behaviour as odd or MLC like...
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Very interesting topic.
I believe that the difference between a MLCer and a WAS is the LBS. We know/feel something is not right and go out and try to figure out what it is, which leads many of us to do research on MLC, WAS and adultery and somewhere between all that reading we come to a conclusion. I believe mine had a MLC but I could always be wrong but as time goes on it matters less and less. Labeling him MLC has help me to understand and given me a reasons that I need to continue on.
I also believe that LBS can be either suffering from PTS disorder or a MLT brought on by all the evil MLCers behavior and BD. I know I am a little of both, I spent the last two years trying on different masks, getting tattoos (which I love and wasn't allowed before), wondering what I need to change and who I am, how did I get so old, what should I do, where should I go.... My friends consider some of my behaviors as acting out, which it is. I also think that all these changes are stages we must go through to find out who we are now that we aren't a husband or wife and that part of us is gone. Rebuilding self-esteem, self-image is hard enough without dealing with a MLCer or a D. I am a member of a D group mailing list and I read it from time to time, the only difference between a WAS's LBS and a MLCers LBS is our beliefs.
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I also believe that LBS can be either suffering from PTS disorder or a MLT brought on by all the evil MLCers behavior and BD. I know I am a little of both, I spent the last two years trying on different masks, getting tattoos (which I love and wasn't allowed before), wondering what I need to change and who I am, how did I get so old, what should I do, where should I go....
mercury, i feel sure that H's departure did the same for me - at first I think I was traumatised, but then I feel that I have been going through a process of transition - from who I had defined myself to be within the context of the marriage and who I thought I would be going forward. The rawness of the experience caused me to peel back all the layers that had come to define me over the years, I felt like an onion with all its layers peeled back to expose the core. And then we try to build the layers up again, but then find that the core has changed shape and grown and the layers need to be altered and adjusted and sometimes discarded as they are rebuilt .
I too got a tattoo - I would never have done this before, but it is a dragonfly (because I have always loved them, I identify them with my childhood, but I see them as a symbol for metamorphosis and also I feel that their movement represents life. Sometimes they seem to hover, but even then they are moving, and other times you can see them whizzing by full of obvious action). Anyway, started out just wanting to agree and now I have gone off on a tangent.... ;-)
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StandandDeliver
What great symbolism you expressed with a dragonfly. I always love my after quote about the caterpillar. I got a black rose (we can all read into that one easily) and a dandelion blowing in the wind for my daughter wishes.
I like to comment on how some think that this topic may put off newbies. From my experience I feel that questioning whether your spouse is a mlcer or a was is all part of the process. I know when I started the pain of reading other threads was sometimes too much for me to bear because I completely understood it. I have never posted on another site so I don't know what they are like and I avoid newbies because it still hurts me. Questions lead to growth and some lead to pain. I use to like to learn and question many things, I don't anymore, I've learned that you don't always have to have an answers. So I hope and believe that a newbie will pick what they need at that time and some topic will have to wait for them to grow or better yet never reach a need to know.
So onto the main topic, I think confusion and personality change is the big indicator of MLC. My H is different now. He was a good father and isn't anymore, of course I considered him a good h and he's not that anymore either. I've been referring to him as zombie <name> for a while now because his body walking around but his spirit vanished. His core changed, and no matter what I keep telling myself, he did love me and our family was important to him. Before he became a vanisher he bounced and the things that came out of his mouth made no sense and if I heard one more "I don't know" I might have snapped. He knew something was wrong and decided to blame me and the marriage instead of finding out what the cause was, he ran and from what I hear he still running, still making things up and still being just a big jerk. We can each take our situation and make them into MLCer or a WAS depending on how much we sway and twist the truth. This topic was brought up because someone doesn't want to stand for 3,5 or 10 years and does not want to feel guilty that they walked away for their spouse. Guess what, your not, it may feel that way, I sometime feel that too, but they left, they choose to leave, MLCers are not legally insane and in the end no one knows if they will come back or not. That burden is their to carry not yours. A MLCer has done wrong, and in time we all will have to find a why to forgive them, not for them but for ourselves, but there is not defining line that says ok you can't D a MLCer but you can a WAS. This is a personally choose, and you will make it when you are ready. A LBS has to do what is right for them, if it's standing, ending standing or never standing at all. I don't think today that anyone who has stood for their marriage has any reason to feel guilty, even if it is only for a few days.
Some where on this website there is a funny story of what a MLC thinks and says. Many found it to not to be funny but I found that it was what finally made me believe that he was in crisis.
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This topic was brought up because someone doesn't want to stand for 3,5 or 10 years and does not want to feel guilty that they walked away for their spouse. Guess what, your not, it may feel that way, I sometime feel that too, but they left, they choose to leave, MLCers are not legally insane and in the end no one knows if they will come back or not. That burden is their to carry not yours. A MLCer has done wrong, and in time we all will have to find a why to forgive them, not for them but for ourselves, but there is not defining line that says ok you can't D a MLCer but you can a WAS. This is a personally choose, and you will make it when you are ready. A LBS has to do what is right for them, if it's standing, ending standing or never standing at all. I don't think today that anyone who has stood for their marriage has any reason to feel guilty, even if it is only for a few days.
This is so true. MCLers are not legally insane, they choose to leave (yes, we know something is wrong with them, so do they), but if we want to divorce them there is no need for us to feel guity. And divorcing them is not the same as not forgiving them.
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mercury and AnneJ,
I completely agree. When I divorce I will not feel guilty because my H is in MLC. He is still making the choices he is making, and he is still dragging many people into his dis-ease (children, extended family, friends, hell - even OW). And he has not been treated badly by anyone, myself included.
I once read on here a story where a woman whose H had left her, saying: if he loves me he'll be back.
As far as I am concerned that is the bottom line regardless of MLC WAS etc. There is no point in staying hooked up in the drama about why this happened. If he truly loves me (and he has the the courage of this love) he will come back. If not, well he won't come back. There it is in black and white. So, it makes sense to detach, to GAL and to treat our spouses with respect (like an acquaintance or neighbour). If they remember that they love us we won't have put up barriers, and we can then choose if that is what we want or not. This could happen with a MLCer or a WAS. If they don't want us back then we have created the seeds of a cordial relationship with them (if there are children this is important) but we have already started the process of leaving that part of our lives behind. In the beginning diagnosing H was important for me, because his actions were so strange, out of character and frankly schizophrenic. But now, a year on, I can see that the reasons really do not matter AS MUCH to me. IF he loves me he'll be back. If he doesn't - then I don't want him anyway!
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Bravo S&D.....I couldn't have said this any better myself!! I'm in complete agreement with S&D, Mercury & AnneJ.
He is still making the choices he is making, and he is still dragging many people into his dis-ease (children, extended family, friends, hell - even OW). And he has not been treated badly by anyone, myself included.
If he truly loves me (and he has the the courage of this love) he will come back. If not, well he won't come back. There it is in black and white.
Courage is a key word here I think (especially in my sitch). H can love me till the cows come home but he needs to have the courage to face what he's done...deal with the guilt (and face me)...and be willing to make the changes necessary to build a better marriage than what we had. It's a scary thought and a lot to deal with....and it cetainly takes a lot more effort than running away and staying away.
If H doesn't have the courage to face this.....then I don't want him back either. I did not marry the cowardly lion!!!! Right now I'm still here....I'm making the necessary changes in myself and am prepared to do whatever it takes to work on our marriage if given the chance.....unfortunately, the ball is in H's court now.....and he's not even in the stadium. (OK...maybe he's in the locker room with OW)