Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: LeaveThePastBehind on October 17, 2011, 12:01:41 PM
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How true do you think that statement is, especially in regards to a mid-life crisis situation, once it has ended of course? I'm sure there's a broad spectrum of scenarios such as if they were always a cheater anyway, etc. How concerned are you that they will cheat again, if they ever do return?
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The problem is answering that is that there are multiple reasons why a person would be unfaithful, even without taking MLC into account.
There are people who think that relationships aren't intended to last forever; when they find themselves "falling out of love" with their spouse, they go looking for the next one. Maybe they saw siblings or parents or other family members get divorced. Narcissistic personalities would also fit into this category.
Still others may have addictive personalities; they may get hooked on the thrill of illicit couplings, or suffer from sexual compulsiveness.
In "His Needs, Her Needs" by Willard Harley, the author shows example after example of people who are in a relationship where their particular needs aren't being met. The unfaithful people are not necessarily cheaters; the whole thesis of the book is that if your spouse is not getting their needs met by you, they will find a way to meet those needs.
There is no way to guarantee that your spouse will not cheat on you again, just as there was no way to guarantee they would cheat in the first place; however, I think that honesty, respect, and forgiveness are three key ingredients in preventing further affairs.
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"There are people who think that relationships aren't intended to last forever; when they find themselves "falling out of love" with their spouse, they go looking for the next one. Maybe they saw siblings or parents or other family members get divorced. Narcissistic personalities would also fit into this category.
Still others may have addictive personalities; they may get hooked on the thrill of illicit couplings, or suffer from sexual compulsiveness.
In "His Needs, Her Needs" by Willard Harley, the author shows example after example of people who are in a relationship where their particular needs aren't being met. The unfaithful people are not necessarily cheaters; the whole thesis of the book is that if your spouse is not getting their needs met by you, they will find a way to meet those needs."
I'm afraid this describes his cheating / leaving better than MLC does. Sometimes I feel that calling it a Mlc, is denial in itself and that spending time here is making me a little bit delusional. He was unhappy. I have to face that. Being here, though, is helping me figure it all out for the benefit of me. :)
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I feel that my H is not a cheater by nature. He wouldn't dream of it. That is how I knew something was wrong. The A was just part of the list of symptoms or band aids he is using to ESCAPE and AVOID. That's all. I think if he ever wakes up and comes to his senses he is going to be shocked by what he did and how he justified it! Plain and simple! :)
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I'm afraid this describes his cheating / leaving better than MLC does. Sometimes I feel that calling it a Mlc, is denial in itself and that spending time here is making me a little bit delusional. He was unhappy. I have to face that. Being here, though, is helping me figure it all out for the benefit of me. :)
But if that's all it is, there's actually more room for optimism. MLC is a whole 'nother set of issues to deal with. There's a lot you can do to start making changes in your relationship that doesn't even require him to take part.
I would recommend The Solo Partner by Phil Deluca and The Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis. I think there are positive, relationship-strengthening strategies and tips regardless of the situation.
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I'm afraid this describes his cheating / leaving better than MLC does. Sometimes I feel that calling it a Mlc, is denial in itself and that spending time here is making me a little bit delusional. He was unhappy. I have to face that. Being here, though, is helping me figure it all out for the benefit of me. :)
Either way you are right SG. Being here is for you, and it is all about YOU! (Not the MLCer, even though they think so lol.) And we like having you here as well. :)
Regardless of whether he is a MLCer or WAS, your actions should still be the same, I think. I agree with StillStanding. There was just a long thread about that on this board too. The Divorce Remedy is awesome, and I just ordered a copy of The Solo Partner.
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I'm afraid this describes his cheating / leaving better than MLC does. Sometimes I feel that calling it a Mlc, is denial in itself and that spending time here is making me a little bit delusional. He was unhappy. I have to face that. Being here, though, is helping me figure it all out for the benefit of me. :)
But if that's all it is, there's actually more room for optimism. MLC is a whole 'nother set of issues to deal with. There's a lot you can do to start making changes in your relationship that doesn't even require him to take part.
I would recommend The Solo Partner by Phil Deluca and The Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis. I think there are positive, relationship-strengthening strategies and tips regardless of the situation.
Thank you! I'll see if I can get these two books from my sister, the Librarian. :)
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I'm afraid this describes his cheating / leaving better than MLC does. Sometimes I feel that calling it a Mlc, is denial in itself and that spending time here is making me a little bit delusional. He was unhappy. I have to face that. Being here, though, is helping me figure it all out for the benefit of me. :)
Either way you are right SG. Being here is for you, and it is all about YOU! (Not the MLCer, even though they think so lol.) And we like having you here as well. :)
Regardless of whether he is a MLCer or WAS, your actions should still be the same, I think. I agree with StillStanding. There was just a long thread about that on this board too. The Divorce Remedy is awesome, and I just ordered a copy of The Solo Partner.
Thank You WP! :) I'm so grateful for this place and I'm happy to be here, too.
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I feel that my H is not a cheater by nature. He wouldn't dream of it. That is how I knew something was wrong. The A was just part of the list of symptoms or band aids he is using to ESCAPE and AVOID. That's all. I think if he ever wakes up and comes to his senses he is going to be shocked by what he did and how he justified it! Plain and simple! :)
Mamma Bear, it's good to hear that Papa Bear was not a cheater by nature. :) It sounds like he'll be right back to his normal self and no worries for you, at least about cheating, when / after he returns.
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I don't think my husband is a cheater by nature (even if we are all capalble of cheating). Never had any suspicious before. However, given the degree of lying, going behind ones back, of knowing how to do things and they can spend a lot of time not being cauth, that even if they are they live and nothing seems to happen to them, I'm not sure if they will not go for it again.
They have already done it, walked away with it. They know how to do it. MAybe the only way of them not doing it again is if they loose everything. Otherwise, if they are just allowed back to us, well, they are going to think, no consequences. Unless, of course, it was so terrible they want to forget it and never go back to it. But...
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I don't think my husband is a cheater by nature (even if we are all capalble of cheating). Never had any suspicious before. However, given the degree of lying, going behind ones back, of knowing how to do things and they can spend a lot of time not being cauth, that even if they are they live and nothing seems to happen to them, I'm not sure if they will not go for it again.
They have already done it, walked away with it. They know how to do it. Maybe the only way of them not doing it again is if they loose everything. Otherwise, if they are just allowed back to us, well, they are going to think, no consequences. Unless, of course, it was so terrible they want to forget it and never go back to it. But...
Hi Annej!
Good points! The lying and the sneaking around = poison to a relationship even if there is no other person.
"if they are just allowed back to us, well, they are going to think, no consequences." so true!
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nd the skills they get and learn with the lying and sneaking around. Also, they learn to overcome they fear, to let everything behind. If we and the marriage were not that important nothing elese is going to be.
Of course it is possible that, once they hit rock botton they manage to see the damages, really feel ashamed of what they have done and will never go for it again.
But they need to see consequences. Though love is the only way. Gentle, but tough.
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nd the skills they get and learn with the lying and sneaking around. Also, they learn to overcome they fear, to let everything behind. If we and the marriage were not that important nothing elese is going to be.
Of course it is possible that, once they hit rock botton they manage to see the damages, really feel ashamed of what they have done and will never go for it again.
But they need to see consequences. Though love is the only way. Gentle, but tough.
Yes! My H was excellent at hiding and sneaking around and then if I would question, he would call me crazy. Looking back, I don't think my H is capable of feeling ashamed, really. I hope he can find it within in him to question why he was like that and change, but I don't know. Zebras don't change their stripes, so they say. I'm trying to believe otherwise.
Edited to add H, this is not about you!!!!!!!! This time is about ME!!!!!!!:) Edit over
**I have to write out a list of everything ( I never found evidence of someone else before BD ) and put it in my thread. I think it will be helpful to me.
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I think this depends so much on the individual situation. My H cheated on me yes he sure did, now Im not making excuses for him, what he did was very wrong. But now I can understand ... he said that he felt that I no longer wanted him, so he felt free to meet someone else, emotionally free ... and I kind of understand where he's coming from.
To him, getting married was never essential for us, he did it for me, I know that. So when he felt that I didn't love him, the fact that we are married was inconsequential almost .... although he still did have a lot of guilt. Interestingly, whilst he was with OW we did not ML at all ... neither of us wanted to ... in his head he was being faithful to her. He said to me more than once 'I was faithful to you for 20 years' and I believed that. (didn't excuse his unfaithulness in yrs 21 and 22 though!)
To summarise, I think my H will be faithful to whoever he commits to, he really didn't see it as cheating ... but he sure does now!!! Many MLCers are not serial cheaters.
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They have already done it, walked away with it. They know how to do it. MAybe the only way of them not doing it again is if they loose everything. Otherwise, if they are just allowed back to us, well, they are going to think, no consequences.
There are all sorts of couples that recover from infidelity. It's not easy, and it requires commitment from the adulterer and patience and forgiveness from the betrayed spouse, but it happens all of the time.
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Still, infidelity, normal one, is one thing. MLC one is very, very different. It causes all sort of other problems, starting with the MCLer not minding leaving, been seen in public with OP, doing nothing to recover the marriage. Not to mention the amount of money they spend. PLus the fact that, some, like mine, take the spoue to court saying the marriage was dead and it was all the spouse fault.
Mine has been lying to a court of law. Not once, but twice. So, it is not just infidelity. There will be many, many more things to work in this (not happening) marriage. He is forgived as well as both OW but I do not see much chances for an healthy relashionship with someone like him. Or the person he had become...More than 5 years had passed. He is still in the fog...not sure if he will ever come out...
lpxpe, my hsuabnd was the one who insisted on marruing and was always very commited. Was always talking about us growing old together. Think is problem was age related. Something about need to live a new life...and only could do it now (over five years ago).
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"I think this depends so much on the individual situation. My H cheated on me yes he sure did, now Im not making excuses for him, what he did was very wrong. But now I can understand ... he said that he felt that I no longer wanted him, so he felt free to meet someone else, emotionally free ... and I kind of understand where he's coming from.
To him, getting married was never essential for us, he did it for me, I know that. So when he felt that I didn't love him, the fact that we are married was inconsequential almost .... although he still did have a lot of guilt. Interestingly, whilst he was with OW we did not ML at all ... neither of us wanted to ... in his head he was being faithful to her. He said to me more than once 'I was faithful to you for 20 years' and I believed that."
Several similarities to my story. Together 19 years, felt I didn't love him anymore, etc.
He was a conflict avoider so I guess bringing up the issue of breaking up was really hard for him. He did mention once, very early on, that we should go separate ways. I guess I didn't listen good enough. I'm as much to blame as he was. But then, he stayed with me another 9 years. ???
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Zebras don't change their stripes, so they say. I'm trying to believe otherwise.
People are not zebras.
People change all of the time. You're not the same person you were when you were 15, or even a year ago.
To be fair, people have to want to change, and MLC is preventing that. And there's no way to know for sure what your spouse will be like if or when they come out of the tunnel.
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Yep, Still, people want to be able to change. Not always for the better. OW1 wanted to change, to become a person that would want to be in a relashionship and husband wanted to change and have a new life.
Given that there are no way of knowing how our spouses will be when they come out of the crisis, in case they do, thenm, it makes no sense to stay married to them or hoping them to be back. They will not be the person we knew, we may not like them. So, why wait?
I'm only still married because my husband, who so much wants to be divroced, makes sure he drags divorce with all possible legal issues.
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Hi StarGG
Hmmm....I had a few things rummaging in my head. Once you have cheated, you are always a cheater - you cannot then not be one, if that makes any sense? I don't think my H cheated previously and I can only say at that time I trusted him - maybe overtrusted. As to 'cheating' well, first you have to believe you have and I know my H vehemently denies he is an adulterous as he'd already separated. However, one of the reason he seems to want a D may be because he cannot bear the 'cheating' (he so denies). A bit long winded but somehow it makes sense to me!!!
Sil x
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Sil, my husband also does not sees himself as a cheater. Since BD only happened when he no longer lived home and only after that he started parading OW1 around town, he would say, he were no longer together, and I left.
Not true, it started while he ws still home. Think mine also was with the divorce talk because he did not wanted bo be seen as a cheater.
But, yes, if you haver cheated once, you're a cheater. Or a former cheater, maybe.
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One of the qualities I admired in my H when I met him was his honesty (or so I thought).
I have now discovered that he saw a prostitute twice during his first marriage. :-[ He told me that after I asked him if he had been physical with anyone in OUR marriage. Not a very direct response to my question about us ???
After he left his first wife he very quickly got heavily involved with a person he met with car trouble.
When he met me he failed to tell me he was still legally married. I discovered this later.
I have no idea now what is the truth and what he has been up to during our marriage. I do feel for sure that the relationship with OW did NOT start after he left me as he likes to assure us. I know he left me for her.
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Yep, Still, people want to be able to change. Not always for the better. OW1 wanted to change, to become a person that would want to be in a relashionship and husband wanted to change and have a new life.
Not always for the worse, either.
Given that there are no way of knowing how our spouses will be when they come out of the crisis, in case they do, thenm, it makes no sense to stay married to them or hoping them to be back. They will not be the person we knew, we may not like them. So, why wait?
They could also be much the same as you remember them, if not better. So why throw away a marriage that you have put so much time and energy into building?
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Not always for the worse, either.
No, but we don't know.
They could also be much the same as you remember them, if not better. So why throw away a marriage that you have put so much time and energy into building?
No they can not. The person we knew had not betrayed, took us to court, lied, took all the couples money, etc. We would never get near a person that had done what our spouses have.
Well, in my case I have no marriage. I'm just still legally married. Have not even seen my husband in more than 3 years. And life moves on and other people turn up in our life. Why waiting for the end of a crisis that may take many more years if I already have a new life? No point.
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They could also be much the same as you remember them, if not better. So why throw away a marriage that you have put so much time and energy into building?
No they can not. The person we knew had not betrayed, took us to court, lied, took all the couples money, etc. We would never get near a person that had done what our spouses have.
What "we" are you referring to? If your husband is out the door and filed for divorce, than I don't fault you for wanting to move on. But that's a far cry from advising other people to move on because they don't know what they're going to get at the end of their struggles.
You never know what you're getting when you get married. My life didn't turn out the way I planned when we got married, and neither did my wife's. I was starting my own business and my hope was to be able to support a family; that business never really turned a profit, and went under after trying to make it work for almost 6 years. My wife was hoping to be a mother; she hasn't been able to carry a pregnancy to term, and we haven't been in a good situation to adopt. (That whole failing business thing didn't help.) Did she lie to me? Did I lie to her?
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My husband is out of the house for over 5 years. Has filled for a first fault divorce October 2008, is currently filling for the second.
Doubt any of us would get near a person that had done what our spouse have. Except, that, they are our spouses. That we in an abstract we. I'm not telling anyone to not stand.
It is very different a life that does nto turn out the way we wanted than the damaged done by a MLC. And also very different that a business does not go as we would like or that we find out we cannot have children. That is not lying, nor a false promise.
But, if you ask your spouse, is there anyone else and they reply, no, no, and there is, that is lying. Also, lying to a court of law, ]ike my husband did, is a crime. Right now I'm married to a criminal. Not something I want to be.
Well, we do not know waht we get at the end of our struggles. Some people say it makes no difference if one divorces or not and even that, some MLCers only "wake" up when they feel they've really lost the marriage. RCR writes about it. To some, thinking the marriage is really over is divorce.
So, even if no one here is pro-divorce (don't even think there is such thing) maybe sometimes it does not make sense to advice everone to stay married.
Time frames will be different, situations change, each case is a case, there is no one size fits all. Let alone in MLC even if it all very similar.
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ok, I guess Ill jump in here.....since we all know...well, thoughs of you that have kept up with my sitch..
my H has cheated a total of 7 times...2 of which came during MLC Replay...but the 5 others....well, They happened I think
mainly because my H has never felt GOOD enough in life...I think he "expected" himself to fail at our M...His father was/is a
perpetual cheater...his Mother is still with his father...my H KNEW about the PA's...his mother made my H follow his own father
to catch him in the act....I dont think that was very healthy......duh! plus you ad the meth addiction and travel for work..
and putting himself into situations that bring this kind of crap into your life.
I KNOW why my H cheated ( part anyway ) I had stopped sleeping in the same bed with him for 2 years...He felt VERY unloved by me.
I am by no means excusing it...but I understand it...Do I think he will cheat again?? No...I actually dont for the first time ever...
If you can believe that one..I see more regret and guilt out of my H then I have EVER seen in our 24 years together. To me that says
everything.
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Well, we do not know waht we get at the end of our struggles. Some people say it makes no difference if one divorces or not and even that, some MLCers only "wake" up when they feel they've really lost the marriage. RCR writes about it. To some, thinking the marriage is really over is divorce.
So, even if no one here is pro-divorce (don't even think there is such thing) maybe sometimes it does not make sense to advice everone to stay married.
Time frames will be different, situations change, each case is a case, there is no one size fits all. Let alone in MLC even if it all very similar.
The original question had to do with infidelity and whether once someone has an affair if they can ever be trusted again. I said that there are a number of reasons why people have affairs; some are due to character flaws, others are due to extreme circumstances (and others are due to MLC, which is a mixture of both) and therefore, whether or not a cheater can ever be trusted again is going to depend on the circumstance.
I think you agree with that, but where I say that it can be worth the wait, you seem to be saying it's not.
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Zebras don't change their stripes, so they say. I'm trying to believe otherwise.
People are not zebras.
People change all of the time. You're not the same person you were when you were 15, or even a year ago.
To be fair, people have to want to change, and MLC is preventing that. And there's no way to know for sure what your spouse will be like if or when they come out of the tunnel.
True! lol. Why do people say that anyway? Figures of speech, lol. ( My other favorite is: Misery Loves Company. No, not always. Sometimes misery likes to be left alone to figure itself out so it can learn to be more like happiness and be comfortable amongst company. :) I made that up myself :) but it's true! )
But anyway, I agree, people change. I am definitely not the same person I was at 15 ( to be honest, I haven't changed that much but I'm a little different in that I'm introverted ~ I've really allowed it to affect my life in a negative way ). One of my biggest faults in my relationship was not accepting the changes in him. I just didn't know any better but I do know now and I'm willing to change :) .
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Well, we do not know waht we get at the end of our struggles. Some people say it makes no difference if one divorces or not and even that, some MLCers only "wake" up when they feel they've really lost the marriage. RCR writes about it. To some, thinking the marriage is really over is divorce.
So, even if no one here is pro-divorce (don't even think there is such thing) maybe sometimes it does not make sense to advice everone to stay married.
Time frames will be different, situations change, each case is a case, there is no one size fits all. Let alone in MLC even if it all very similar.
The original question had to do with infidelity and whether once someone has an affair if they can ever be trusted again. I said that there are a number of reasons why people have affairs; some are due to character flaws, others are due to extreme circumstances (and others are due to MLC, which is a mixture of both) and therefore, whether or not a cheater can ever be trusted again is going to depend on the circumstance.
I think you agree with that, but where I say that it can be worth the wait, you seem to be saying it's not.
Agree with you, a cheater may, or may not be trusted again depending on circustances. A non MLC affair, can, I think, usually be forgived and the marriage saved. A MLC affair can be forgived but the marriage can't always be saved.
Before OW2 and all that come with her, and, maybe even a couple of years ago, after court case nº1, I would be saying it would be worthy to be waiting for my husband. Not anymore. Even because I'm finding more, and more, and more nasty stuff he had done and he keeps lying and lying and lying. For how much longer can a person keep lying? No idea. Maybe forever?....
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Agree with you, a cheater may, or may not be trusted again depending on circustances. A non MLC affair, can, I think, usually be forgived and the marriage saved. A MLC affair can be forgived but the marriage can't always be saved.
I don't see why you are drawing the distinction between affairs in MLC and ones that are not.
I've seen people whose spouses are not MLCing walk away from a marriage at the discovery of an affair. We have stories of people hold on through an MLC and are rewarded with a better relationship.
The biggest factors in whether or not a marriage survives is the willingness of both partners to commit and work through it, and time.
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Sorry everyone. Had to step away for a bit. I must catch up.
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I agree. I know a lot of marriages that were not mlc that came to divorce because of an affair. I don't see why it would be different... The LBS ultimately makes the call. I would have been one of the people that was sure i would divorce over infidelity... BUT because it was or seemed "different" then an ordinary affair... I am still here. And though my "stand" has wobbled throughout this... I know that there is still HOPE for my marriage.
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Thanks for all the replies. Hi StarGG
Hmmm....I had a few things rummaging in my head. Once you have cheated, you are always a cheater - you cannot then not be one, if that makes any sense? I don't think my H cheated previously and I can only say at that time I trusted him - maybe overtrusted. As to 'cheating' well, first you have to believe you have and I know my H vehemently denies he is an adulterous as he'd already separated. However, one of the reason he seems to want a D may be because he cannot bear the 'cheating' (he so denies). A bit long winded but somehow it makes sense to me!!!
Sil x
I see what you mean about "once you have cheated, you are always a cheater". The old me would believe this completely but as SS says, people change. Considering the varied reasons they do it in the first place, I have faith that even a cheater can change if they really, really wanted to, now.
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Ok, so I havent been posting much as of late, I have been busy, with myself, my daughters and yes, my estranged husband...
I have not said this EVER b4 and I apologize if it offends anyone...I am totally blown out of the water by some of these postings...
I HAVE BEEN WHERE YOU ARE Annej, I KNOW it is not easy, im not downing you ...but having such a negative attitude towards everything isnt going to help you or anyone else
I am one that was a fixer, a tough cookie to get through to...but after I started really thinking about things and taking the advice being give...even at times aith a great big grain of salt, I realized that my husbands "list of complaints" did deserve some validation, so I started to work on myself, NOT for him, but for me, to be a better person. We all have the capability to learn from our own mistakes
I went through more crap that I ever imagined possible! the lying, sneaking , spending of all of our money...the list goes on and on. He lived with his "friend" for just over 2 years...
I took care of me and my daughters, and believe you me, it was not an easy task!, no money, not knowing if we would have a home to live in...serious doubts that I could ever get back to being the independent, self reliant person I was b4 I met my husband
it took a lot of time, patience, energy, tears, spewing and throwing tantrums, but I kept going...all the while staying clear of my H's friend, and even my h at times.
I had to LEARN to accept what was going on whether I liked it or not! the more I dwelled on what he and his friend was doing the harder it was...took A LONG time and our old timers can attest to it, but I started to ignore him, his behaviors and his BS!
I wouldnt feed into his drama at all, and it was hard...he is a clinger, still to this day!
Our spouses are not who we married, they are sick! They need to take this on themselves, ALL of it!
We can not fix it and the more we fight it, the worse it will be. Im not kidding...it gets much worse b4 it gets any better and then some...
I was blown off for a number of years, like I almost didnt exist...cept when he needed something. I have gone to court and been lied to! my h also filed for divorce, but it never went anywhere, he treated our children more like people he didnt know than his own kids, cause NOTHING mattered to him except him.
holidays, birthdays they were all just another day...nothing made a difference...he was depressed, didnt feel good was tired...oh yeah, and he didnt work for over a year!
well I really feel the need to share, that they DO NOT REALIZE WHAT THEY ARE DOING... the cheating, lying, spending, acting like a child...none of it...they are clueless.
But until THEY start to suffer their consequences, and THEY start to see what they have done and caused...NOTHING can or will pull them out of it all...
Not every MLCer is the same, and they never will be, different situations, different circumstances...I will say this though, it is solely up to YOU as to what you want your life to be, and who you want to share it with. That is the ONLY decision you can make. Nothing else matters right now. People change every day, for many reasons, including to better their relationships and/or marriages. Once a cheater always a cheater I dont even believe this applies in MLC...they arent sane, they can not make conscious thought out decisons...
I hung on, changed alot of things about myself for myself and kept my love for my husband even when I couldnt stand to see his face!
It is a long road. You have to choose where you want it to try and lead you. If you are done and walk away, no one here will condemn you for that, but I must say that in my mind as well as a whole bunch of others divorce is not our first option.
I am seeing my husband hit rock bottom, little by little picking himself back up. Becoming a much better person than he ever was. has he made some really poor decisions? yes. He is now suffering the consequences in MANY different ways. I know I am fine without him, however I choose to be with him. People make many mistakes throughout their lives, it doesnt mean they are not worthy...everyone deserves a chance.
There are success stories here, and many many stories of what we all go through. In very distinct detail.
What is right for one may not be for the other, but only the individual can decide what is right for them.
Im done ranting now...what advice people are trying to give is very valuable, you never have to agree with any of it but please hear it, it was a lifesaver for me...
hugs,
L
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Great post Love. Thanks. :)
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One of the qualities I admired in my H when I met him was his honesty (or so I thought).
I have now discovered that he saw a prostitute twice during his first marriage. :-[ He told me that after I asked him if he had been physical with anyone in OUR marriage. Not a very direct response to my question about us ???
After he left his first wife he very quickly got heavily involved with a person he met with car trouble.
When he met me he failed to tell me he was still legally married. I discovered this later.
I have no idea now what is the truth and what he has been up to during our marriage. I do feel for sure that the relationship with OW did NOT start after he left me as he likes to assure us. I know he left me for her.
This is what I'm trying to figure out, too. I can't understand exactly what was real or fake. On one hand, I caught him doing lots of things here & there that really made me furious and I can't tell if he was simply a great manipulator with his explanations or if he was telling the truth. I always had that gut feeling but then I wonder if I was exaggerating, nagging, causing trouble and driving a wedge between us. On the other hand, he bought me anything I could want ( not that I asked for anything ), he took care of me financially for a couple of years, and he was very supportive of whatever I wanted to do. It all made me very confused. I still am confused about it.
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Love, I don't have a negative atitude, I've passed that. I simply don't think all marriages can, or must be saved. Let alone all MLC marriages. We all have a time frame and mine has passed. I'm very away from where I was 5 years ago, 3 years ago, 1 year ago.
Of course they are not the person we married with. And they will never be again.
Divorce was not, nor is, my first option. If so I had done it after BDC or after OW2 or when they moved in together. I did not contest my husband first fauld divorce against me, so, case closed, we remained married, he remanied with OW2.
But, like you said, people change and things change. I'm done with him. I do not want to share the rest of my life with him.
This, of course, may change, but, for now, it is like that.
Even if I would want to spend the rest of my life with my husband that would only be possible after a divorce. That is the only way he will start to see what he has caused. And he needs to suffer the consequences of his actions. I know him enoughMLC or not, to know that.
So far nothing he has not suffered any real consequence. Well, he may had is heart broken when OW1 was no mora, but that was it.
They understand a little of what they are doing but not much. Essencially, I know that from the letters my husband had wrote OW1 and a talk he had had with me on March 2008, they only feel. And what they feel is a mess of feelings.
Still, I'm sorry to hear your husband has not been honest to you. So, and I hope you don't take offense, you were OE without knowing so. May I ask what you've done when you did found he was still legally married? Asking because OW2 did not knew my husband was still legally married.
Star, until the crisis begin my husband was not manipulative and I knew he was real, never caught him doing nothing he shopuld not been doing, so, the man he is in the crisis is not the man he was before.
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ok, I guess Ill jump in here.....since we all know...well, thoughs of you that have kept up with my sitch..
my H has cheated a total of 7 times...2 of which came during MLC Replay...but the 5 others....well, They happened I think
mainly because my H has never felt GOOD enough in life...I think he "expected" himself to fail at our M...His father was/is a
perpetual cheater...his Mother is still with his father...my H KNEW about the PA's...his mother made my H follow his own father
to catch him in the act....I dont think that was very healthy......duh! plus you ad the meth addiction and travel for work..
and putting himself into situations that bring this kind of crap into your life.
I KNOW why my H cheated ( part anyway ) I had stopped sleeping in the same bed with him for 2 years...He felt VERY unloved by me.
I am by no means excusing it...but I understand it...Do I think he will cheat again?? No...I actually dont for the first time ever...
If you can believe that one..I see more regret and guilt out of my H then I have EVER seen in our 24 years together. To me that says
everything.
Thanks for sharing that Synicca. I wasn't aware of all those details in your situation. Very insightful! I empathize with the part you said about him "feeling very unloved and sleeping in a different bed". One instance in particular, occurred four months before BD. At that time, I stayed a total of two months at my parents house ( 5 minutes by train from home ). I have no idea why, but something told me to stay at my parents house. I don't know if some force was preparing me for this or if he simply, saw it ( my being gone ) as his opportunity to find someone and leave because he felt I didn't love him. BIG mistake on my part but I have a feeling it would have happened anyway
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Syn, what makes you think your husband will not cheat again? The regret and guilt? Do you think he will not cheat when those fade out?...
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Ok, so I may be luckier than most here since my H is living with Tailgate Buddy and not an OW. Please forgive me if I am speaking out of turn. However, the saying turn the other cheek has good application here. Many people in our lives hurt us for a variety of reasons. We can choose to forgive or not. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.
I have learned a lot in this crisis. I miss my H, but he has done some truly hurtful things these past few months. But, just like cheating, I know he has the capacity to stop his behaviors and change how he approaches his life. Just because something is happening now, that is not a guarantee that it will continue. So once a cheater always a cheater is not written in stone.
My mother was a grudge master. She could recount from 1943 on to the day my dad died in 1983 every offense he ever committed against her. She was a miserable person. Her victim mentality made her very unpalatable to be around. Even after she remarried she still brought up crap about my dad. Her new husband said to me at one point, "you have to understand your mother, she's had a hard life. Her mother in law wasn't very nice to her." My reply was " Her MIL died in 1963. I don't think she's said an unkind word since." He just looked at me and smiled realizing he was getting sucked into her drama.
So my feeling here is, AnneJ if you are so injured by what has happened to you, you need to find a way to let go of it. How is this enhancing your life? You say you are done, but you keep rehashing what has happened to you and how hurt you are and what a D**k (my word,not yours, but that is the feeling I get) your H is. He may be, I don't know him. But life is short. If you are done, move on. Let it go. Stop living in your past. Events shape our lives, but even negative experiences can have positive results.
If the others on this board want to allow a seed of doubt that their spouses will cheat again, why are you so hell bent on pointing out that that doubt is misplaced. They are our lives and we get to choose how we will live it and what we want to do. I think your time would be better spent learning how to find the Silver Linings in this situation. Through all the hurt I have endured, I choose to find the good that still surrounds me. If I choose to wait for my H to figure himself out, why do you want to discourage my Stand? You don't know all the other spouses to decide what they will or will not do.
So StarGG, in answer to the question, no, once a cheater they are not always a cheater. Anyone can choose to change. But it is their choice.
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Anne,
Why are you so fixated on the negative possibilities?
Yes, it's possible that a cheating spouse could cheat again. Yes, it's possible that our MLCing spouses could come of out the tunnel and choose not to reconcile, either out of guilt or shame or having just moved on.
Do you think that these doubts don't occur to us? Do you think that our friends, co-workers, and family don't share similar insights with us?
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Anne,
Why are you so fixated on the negative possibilities?
Yes, it's possible that a cheating spouse could cheat again. Yes, it's possible that our MLCing spouses could come of out the tunnel and choose not to reconcile, either out of guilt or shame or having just moved on.
Do you think that these doubts don't occur to us? Do you think that our friends, co-workers, and family don't share similar insights with us?
Still, I'm not fixated on the negatives. I've explained that on a previous post.
Are most of you on this into year 6?...For what I've read many are into a few months, other 2, 3 years., some have deal with this for longer, but, mainly, people here are dealing with months to 3 maybe 4 years MLC. And most of you have contact with your spouse other than through court. I don't.
Things change. We change. I did not say he would cheat again, nor that a cheater always cheats again. I think that, if out of MLC he will not cheat again. I'm certain you all have your doubts but, as more time passes, for me, the least the chances. I know all about the gift of time. It does wonders to us. It also makes us be very, very away from our spouse and marriage. At least it is what is making to me.
I have explained several times, divorced you can marry anyone, including remarring your spouse if you both choose so, separated from a man that is alive but from who you have become the widow does not alllow you to remarry nor build a life with someone else.
It comes to a point, at least that is what my journey showed me, where standing and keep hoping is having detrimental effects on my health. Until some time ago standing was fine but not anymore. Now not being divorced only makes me feel traped.
Also, you seem to forget that we are still in the middle of a second fault divorce process. It will take time to go through it, more time to digest it. More time to the end of the fog, let alone MLC. And all that without a clue of how it will turn out.
Plus, there are several financial reasons why it is no good for me to stay married. And, yes, I'm tired of the crisis. I'm very sorry if you all think I'm giving up, I'm not, just not keeping insisting and having a reality check. Otherwise it would be like our MLCErs, living in la la la land. My husband is nowhere near out of the fog. It may take him years. I'm too tired of this dragging and getting nowhere. It just drains me.
Again, what is valid for me and my husband may not be for others.
But, given that standing is for us (at least for me it is), if it comes to a point when it no longer makes me feel well, than, what is the point?...In my case, nothing to do what family or friends say. They say nothing. Not encourage nor discourage, they just care if I'm doing well. Clearly, lately, I'm not.
Any suggestions, Still?
One more thing, I have established a time frame for staying married or be divorced, given that it is impossible to know how long the crisis will last. It has passed nearly a near since that time frame.
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I have often wondered if H would be faithful to me if and when we reconcile?
But I also have to look back and realize what I did in the marriage to make him feel unwanted, unhappy and other things.
I realize it's more than that that brought on the MLC but I am not blaming H for everything. So in the end H has to forgive me for the nasty things I said and did and how I treated him before BD. So even though I didn't cheat I still hope he can forgive me cause I was definetely not a very good wife! So I can forgive H if he can forgive me!!!
I love him even through all the monster and lies and betrayal cause I know INSIDE is what counts and he has a wonderful heart and loves his kids so MLC isn't fun but I'm trying to see past all the MLC behavior and what is inside H.
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Still, I'm not fixated on the negatives. I've explained that on a previous post.
I don't agree. I've seen several times just in this thread alone where you respond to someone expressing hope or faith that things will work out for the better with negativity.
Syn, what makes you think your husband will not cheat again? The regret and guilt? Do you think he will not cheat when those fade out?...
[...]
And the skills they get and learn with the lying and sneaking around. Also, they learn to overcome they fear, to let everything behind. If we and the marriage were not that important nothing elese is going to be.
[...]
Given that there are no way of knowing how our spouses will be when they come out of the crisis, in case they do, thenm, it makes no sense to stay married to them or hoping them to be back. They will not be the person we knew, we may not like them. So, why wait?
I have explained several times, divorced you can marry anyone, including remarring your spouse if you both choose so, separated from a man that is alive but from who you have become the widow does not alllow you to remarry nor build a life with someone else.
It may be that some people have to go through a divorce and remarriage to recreate their relationship; if my wife ultimately chooses to divorce me, there is little I can do to prevent it. Some marriages are like houses that need some renovation done to them; a fresh coat of paint, new fixtures or furnishings. Others need the roof replaced, windows replaced, new insulation put in. Still others have collapsed completely and need to be rebuilt from the ground up. But none of those are the same thing as burning the house down.
]
But, given that standing is for us (at least for me it is), if it comes to a point when it no longer makes me feel well, than, what is the point?...In my case, nothing to do what family or friends say. They say nothing. Not encourage nor discourage, they just care if I'm doing well. Clearly, lately, I'm not.
Any suggestions, Still?
No. As much as I believe in the value of and the virtue in Standing, I do know that it's not for everyone--and that even if it was, some people can't muster the strength or patience to weather the storm.
I also think that some marriages should not be maintained; I have urged people to leave abusive spouses, and I've even helped a woman and her friends go to her house and collect her stuff from abusive soon-to-be ex-husband. One of my best friends' wives had her first husband turn on her on their wedding night; she lived in terror for years until she worked up the courage to escape and file for divorce. It took her years to get over that -- she told me it wasn't until she had been married to my friend for longer than she had been married to her first husband that she really believed that it was going to be okay.
I'm not familiar with all of the details of your situation, but I can see from your comments on this thread but much this has worn you down. If you need to be done with your marriage and away from your husband in order to heal, then it would be unfair of me to hold that against you.
But I also don't think that you are holding some great truth that the rest of us just aren't ready to accept yet. There are several people on this forum that have been at this as long as you, if not longer, and several of them are have renewed their relationships without getting divorced. Rollercoasterrider started this forum precisely to show people that it is possible for things to get better, no matter how dark it seems at times.
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Thank you for the hopeful and positive messages Learning and StillStanding. That is what I come to this board for. :)
Crazyforhim, I have also been looking a lot at myself and seeing where I need to change as well. This has been a real learning experience. I hope that at the end of this both H and myself are better healthier people who can come back together into a better healthier relationship together.
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Crazy...Well said.
I just have an extra thing thrown in to confuse my stand. Narcissism. Not just the MLC type but the Personality disorder type shown way before MLC.
This is something I need to conmsider if I'm to ever accept H back. That is, if he would even want to return, that is.
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dont mean to hijack the thread but what exactly is narcissim behaviour. i also believe we learn so much about our selves on our journey. ive mad changes in the last year and am still doing so. i know almost a year on im completely happy with what i got in my life and have a list of to do things as i so want to keep on building my confidence again. i also love the fact that im laughing again. i never thought i would see that day. a lot can happen in a year. love this thread ;D
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There are a lot of places you can read about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but here's one that compares it to Borderline Personality Disorder:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201110/what-have-you-done-me-lately-entitlement-key-narcissistic-trait
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201110/pay-attention-me-when-is-it-borderline-disorder
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SS and Learning,
Excellent advice and a very good job at putting things in perspective (as always). You're right that there is hope no matter how dark it may seem.
Anne, I for one understand that you are pretty much weathered out. You've stood your ground for so long and now know that it's time to move on. Everyone is different and I will be the last to fault you for wanting to move on with your life. You obviously haven't given up on your H nor have you closed the door on the M, but your tactics are changing and I'm sure you know what is best for you. I can see how some may have detected negativity in your posts, but alot of that can be attributed to your seeing the world differently than others do. In most cases, there are no right or wrong answers to all of this. You're not a bad person for being ready to move on and I admire you for staying in the game as long as you have (I can't imagine at this point). Your H MAY not take years to come out of this as some seem to exit rather rapidly when it starts. Who knows, if the D ever makes it to being final that may be what wakes him up. Wouldn't that be ironic?
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Annej
The reason I think my H will be faithful now....is because YOU cannot change what you do NOT acknowledge...my H always blamed
ME for his PA's...always. He blamed it all on MY PA...back through PPD..Now during this MLC, him and I have had some very
intense heart to heart talks about both OUR affairs...
He told me he forgave me..FINALLY!! That meant alot to me, he also finally took FULL responsibility for ALL his affairs.
He has changed so much....for the better, that I CAN see even through MLC..he has become a better man...for himself and for our
marriage..That's why I don't think he will again.
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Synnica,
That is awesome!!
As much pain this whole MLC has caused it seems it had to happen for both of you & your marriage!!
That is some pretty important forgiveness and acknowledgement !! I'm happy for you ;D
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Thanks Believer....I agree, I believe THIS did HAVe to happen...it was meant to be....as in everything happens for a reason :)
It was easier for me to forgive my H for this...because I had FINALLY forgiven myself. I whole heartedly believe in order
to make it out of this a whole complete person...YOU have to FORGIVE...
It really is the KEY to saving our M. You cannot be full of resentment when you are trying to save your marraige.
Its impossible.
Without all of this...we wouldnt have gotten this far. :D so I have no regrets, in fact I am glad this MLC happened when it did, it SAVED me and HIM and our M....strange as that sounds and even though, he is with OW..:)
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Yeah Syn, Even my MLCer noticed somehow. He mumbled once "You see these new changes you've made are so nice. If I hadn't of left you wouldn't have done them" :o :o They notice things but keep on with the ow. Crazy, compelled , nuts. :o :o
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Yeah, I was wondering if cheating could be some type of personality trait. In that case, a cheater will always be a cheater then, I think. It's pretty hard to change personality. If cheating is a symptom of something else, like mlc or other issues in a partnership, then I'm positive they can change if they want to and won't need to be labeled a cheater forever.
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SG,
I don't know if you've been around long enough to have seen my whole story, but my W and I separated during the first year of our marriage and I had an affair with one of my best friend's W's. It is what I'm least proud of in my life, but I feel that I served my penance and she forgave me. She had given me permission beforehand as she knew I was feeling I married too young but I still feel it was cheating. Her sister (who, coincidentally, is married to a guy who cheated on her profusely around that time but hasn't since and she ended up cheating on him as well but they are still together) told my W "once a cheater, always a cheater" also. Well, that was over 18 years ago (right around this time of year also) and I haven't so much as touched another woman since. In fact, I'm so adverse to cheating that I would feel too guilty even going out with someone now and my W and I have been separated for 3 months!! Affairs are symptoms, and unless a person has learned to devalue relationships and use sleeping around as a coping skill (when sane!) then they are often learned from and do not become a behavioral pattern. My BIL hasn't cheated in over 16 years that I know of, and my SIL had her one affair that lasted a month or two and hasn't had anything happen since that I am aware of.
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Yeah, I was wondering if cheating could be some type of personality trait. In that case, a cheater will always be a cheater then, I think. It's pretty hard to change personality.
We're back to what I said at the very top of the thread.
There are certainly personality types that are prone to cheating; narcissistic or borderline personalities need admiration or attention and are prone to risky behaviors.
It could be a matter of upbringing; if you see everyone around you getting divorced or having affairs, you will probably grow up with the idea that marriages just don't last and that you need to "follow your heart". (It's also likely that you can reject those experiences and choose to seek a lifetime commitment.)
But there are also people who merely succumb to temptation or are driven to cheat by circumstances that they would ordinarily not otherwise. It's certainly a moral weakness or lapse in judgment, but is that a necessarily a personality trait, though?
If cheating is a symptom of something else, like mlc or other issues in a partnership, then I'm positive they can change if they want to and won't need to be labeled a cheater forever.
Why do they need to be labeled a cheater? Why do they need to be labeled as anything? If you get to label spouses as adulterers or cheaters, do I also get to label you for your weaknesses and failings? One of the biggest obstacles to overcoming infidelity in a marriage is actually the willingness of the betrayed spouse to forgive.
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SG,
I don't know if you've been around long enough to have seen my whole story, but my W and I separated during the first year of our marriage and I had an affair with one of my best friend's W's. It is what I'm least proud of in my life, but I feel that I served my penance and she forgave me. She had given me permission beforehand as she knew I was feeling I married too young but I still feel it was cheating. Her sister (who, coincidentally, is married to a guy who cheated on her profusely around that time but hasn't since and she ended up cheating on him as well but they are still together) told my W "once a cheater, always a cheater" also. Well, that was over 18 years ago (right around this time of year also) and I haven't so much as touched another woman since. In fact, I'm so adverse to cheating that I would feel too guilty even going out with someone now and my W and I have been separated for 3 months!! Affairs are symptoms, and unless a person has learned to devalue relationships and use sleeping around as a coping skill (when sane!) then they are often learned from and do not become a behavioral pattern. My BIL hasn't cheated in over 16 years that I know of, and my SIL had her one affair that lasted a month or two and hasn't had anything happen since that I am aware of.
I haven't read your entire story Thundarr. Thank's for adding all of that here. I'm not the best at responding to these types of topics ( even though, I asked the question, lol. It's all so involved but I want to say that I understand what you're saying. It's stories like that that I want to hear because I want to believe that there's hope. I really feel in my heart that he had a lot of issues with his past and his biological father who left, etc. I don't want to believe that he is a cheater. I can't even stand that word. I hate to even type it. It makes me nauseous. Yeah, I was wondering if cheating could be some type of personality trait. In that case, a cheater will always be a cheater then, I think. It's pretty hard to change personality.
We're back to what I said at the very top of the thread.
There are certainly personality types that are prone to cheating; narcissistic or borderline personalities need admiration or attention and are prone to risky behaviors.
It could be a matter of upbringing; if you see everyone around you getting divorced or having affairs, you will probably grow up with the idea that marriages just don't last and that you need to "follow your heart". (It's also likely that you can reject those experiences and choose to seek a lifetime commitment.)
But there are also people who merely succumb to temptation or are driven to cheat by circumstances that they would ordinarily not otherwise. It's certainly a moral weakness or lapse in judgment, but is that a necessarily a personality trait, though?
If cheating is a symptom of something else, like mlc or other issues in a partnership, then I'm positive they can change if they want to and won't need to be labeled a cheater forever.
Why do they need to be labeled a cheater? Why do they need to be labeled as anything? If you get to label spouses as adulterers or cheaters, do I also get to label you for your weaknesses and failings? One of the biggest obstacles to overcoming infidelity in a marriage is actually the willingness of the betrayed spouse to forgive.
I know. I wrote and walked a away for a bit but then I thought, to myself, that isn't really what I meant to say, exactly, ie. cheating = personality trait. It's true, it depends on so many experiences in life. What I meant by personality trait was..... actually, I was thinking about his personality... he's very open-minded to new experiences, meeting new people and he adjusts to situations and environments easily. He's a free spirit. Very carefree. I guess I picture him as someone who, deep down inside, doesn't want to be with one person ( me ) forever. He gets board easily. I guess, I'm confusing all of that with choosing to do something immoral ie. cheating. It's not the same thing. I hope that makes sense.
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"one of the biggest obstacles to overcoming infidelity in a marriage is actually the willingness of the betrayed spouse to forgive"
I wholeheartedly agree!
One of the things that i have really learned recently is that i am capable of true forgiveness.... Its so much more than saying "i forgive you"... Its living it... Its compassion and its understanding and its empathy. That is not being a doormat. That is not inhibiting consequences... I don't need to make sure my h "pays" for how he hurt me... It is his to carry. But because i let go of the anger and bitterness... I can see what "actually" happened and that helped me answer most of my "why's". And with that knowledge... I can see how he has been sick with this for some time now... And that enables me to show him love and forgiveness.
OMR
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Why do they need to be labeled a cheater? Why do they need to be labeled as anything? If you get to label spouses as adulterers or cheaters, do I also get to label you for your weaknesses and failings? One of the biggest obstacles to overcoming infidelity in a marriage is actually the willingness of the betrayed spouse to forgive.
The flip side of this is... Then why label them MLC also? I don't condone labeling them cheaters, but in the same token I won't question why others do it. Depending on our stage in this process some will be able to avoid labeling them as cheaters.
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I know. I wrote and walked a away for a bit but then I thought, to myself, that isn't really what I meant to say, exactly, ie. cheating = personality trait. It's true, it depends on so many experiences in life. What I meant by personality trait was..... actually, I was thinking about his personality... he's very open-minded to new experiences, meeting new people and he adjusts to situations and environments easily. He's a free spirit. Very carefree. I guess I picture him as someone who, deep down inside, doesn't want to be with one person ( me ) forever. He gets board easily. I guess, I'm confusing all of that with choosing to do something immoral ie. cheating. It's not the same thing. I hope that makes sense.
It does. And if what I wrote came across as an attack, I apologize.
I've seen an increase in tendencies to demonize the MLCer and their actions and behaviors, which I think will hinder reconciliation later. MLCers are in crisis, and their actions are hurting their spouses and their kids and everyone around them. But you don't protect your love for your spouse by thinking of them as evil or malicious. Comparing them to demons and serial killers(!) is irresponsible.
We need to take steps to protect ourselves and our kids from their outbursts and Replay behaviors; that's what detachment and setting boundaries is for. You protect your finances so that you and your kids can continue to eat and have a place to live -- in this economy, that is more important than ever.
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"It does. And if what I wrote came across as an attack, I apologize."
No, I didn't take anything you said as an attack. Not at all. Your comments have been very helpful to me, StillStanding.
About using cheating as a label, temporally or otherwise, I just wouldn't know what else to call it.
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There's a difference between describing a behavior ("he cheated on me") and making a judgment about a person ("he's a cheater").
The tendency to treat them as the same thing the two probably contributes to a large number of unnecessary divorces.
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There's a difference between describing a behavior ("he cheated on me") and making a judgment about a person ("he's a cheater").
The tendency to treat them as the same thing the two probably contributes to a large number of unnecessary divorces.
I get this. :) Labeling really doesn't do any good. I remember I used to call him a Liar when I found something new or felt suspicious. He hated that! I should have simply said "you lied to me" and then get to the bottom of why.
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Hi all, I believe it was Annej who commented on people here only being at this for a couple of months, or years...
I am just speaking in general here, but most of us that have been around since RCR started this site, and we all came over from another forum, have been at this for quite some time ourselves...
this site has been a God send for most of us Standers because of how the other forums either dont recognize MLC or simply dont know the facts and turn it into a bashing session for cheating. I am feeling that right here on this thread, and I would hate to see it turn into that...
The more we are able to learn about MLC, the more we are able to understand. It is a process, a LONG one at that. If you can not come to a point where this can be accepted for just that, you will get NO WHERE.
STOP worrying about what your spouse is doing, who they are with, where they are at. You must learn to let it go.
Forget the other person...they are no one to waste your precious time on...
There are mountains of information here that can be read through...ask questions, hear what your mentors are trying to say...you may not always agree ( I didnt) but the further along you get, the easier it will become.
It took me some time to see the tree through the forest, let me tell you! But once it all clicked...BOY was it a difference.
I am now at a point of living through the chances and trials of reconciliation...it is not any easier...it takes hard work, dedication, forgiveness all of it rolled up into one again, and it is NOT so quick to come by.
I ask myself questions ALL OF THE TIME...but I know in my heart and in my mind that this is our shot at a new beginning...
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LBOHG...was looking at your profile and it is very similar to mine.
Great advice- I am going to follow it!
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I am now at a point of living through the chances and trials of reconciliation...it is not any easier...it takes hard work, dedication, forgiveness all of it rolled up into one again, and it is NOT so quick to come by.
You bring up a really good point. If and when the day comes that your MLCer wants to work things out, that's when the REAL work begins. That's when you have to start putting back together the life that got broken at the bomb drop.
You don't necessarily get to overlook or ignore or push aside the problems any more; it's where you get to exercise all of the skills in detachment, communication and forgiveness that you hopefully have been developing in the meantime.
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SS,
you are absolutely right!
there are still no guarantees either!
This is where ALL of the skills we have learned come into play more than ever...your patience is tried and tried again. with my h, he has begun to really be impacted by all the damage he has done.
for those who question that they will really fear losing you, I did also...until I saw it happen! I went out with my girlfriend, and from about 10pm on the texts and calls were OUT OF control!
I ended up coming home and going to bed, to get AWAY from him, I was livid and stunned by it all...this was the same man that had screamed divorce for over a year!
long story short...the next day turned into an apology session...hours worth, and what made him snap the night b4 was thinking of me having a life with someone else. Why did it happen like that who knows...those of you who have followed my story know what a horrible ride it has been, like so many of us here. I guess this was a breaking point for us.
Not much going on, but atleast I know we stand a chance, and that is all of my hard work, dedication and faith starting to show.
hugs! sorry for the hijack!
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"for those who question that they will really fear losing you, I did also...until I saw it happen! I went out with my girlfriend, and from about 10pm on the texts and calls were OUT OF control!"
How soon after BD did that happen, Love? Sorry, I haven't read your thread ( too, many threads to read )
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a bit over 2 years after BD...honestly, dont go by any timeline...everyones is different...it took my H a number of years b4 he actually left our home...
also, just being honest...if you go back and read my old threads, as well as many other old timers...you will gather soooo much more understanding and strength, read and re read them! You will also see that at a time, we were in the same spot you are. Im telling you this forum was my lifeline!
It will show you just what all we have gone through, and how we have made it to where we are today. most stories are not so pretty, but again they are VERY informative!
hugs,
L
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a bit over 2 years after BD...honestly, dont go by any timeline...everyones is different...it took my H a number of years b4 he actually left our home...
also, just being honest...if you go back and read my old threads, as well as many other old timers...you will gather soooo much more understanding and strength, read and re read them! You will also see that at a time, we were in the same spot you are. Im telling you this forum was my lifeline!
It will show you just what all we have gone through, and how we have made it to where we are today. most stories are not so pretty, but again they are VERY informative!
hugs,
L
Thank you! I agree, there's no point in following a timeline. I say that even for myself because I didn't really start to work on me, for real, until a short time ago and I'm a little over two years past BD. I've forgiven myself for letting the pain and other issues in my life stop me from living. I'm being patient with myself and searching for the love within so I'll be ready to share it again someday. :)
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LveBeingOnHigherGround, " and that is all of my hard work, dedication and Faith starting to show" Great quote for me to read today! I believe in what you are sharing. I am so glad that you are sharing. It really helps. When I try and look into the future I see ME and MY Ds thriving. My MLCer, I can see a glimmer of hope that he'll figure this out. Without my help.. or ONLY my help from the sidelines cheering him on :o :o :o
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SG and MB,
Thank you, and I am glad it helps. Im not on nearly as much as I used to be for obvious reasons and it really saddens me to check in and read all this negativity.
When I came over here, the last thing I needed was more downers! I was one tough cookie to get through to, and I will say it a million times over, because it may help just one more person!
hugs,
L
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I think there is always a glimmer of hope as long as the LBS hasn't given up and moved on.
LBOHG, it is amazing that they become unglued when they see us having a life. I am only 8 mos in and my H will stop by unannounced when he thinks I am here. Sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not. I have a life outside of all this drama. I was staying with Mamma Bear and her D's in Aug in a resort town. My D28 called me and told me H had stopped by the house and asked where I was. D told him I was "whoring it up in Wildwood". Mamma and I and OMR were hysterical laughing. OMR and her D's joined us.
This is a true illness and it takes time to recover from it. If you have the patience and aren't in financial jeopardy, you can get thru this. But everyone is different and has different tolerance levels. But as long as you have a pulse, there's always hope.
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Thanks, Thundarr. I'm not a bad person at all. :)
Your H MAY not take years to come out of this as some seem to exit rather rapidly when it starts. Who knows, if the D ever makes it to being final that may be what wakes him up. Wouldn't that be ironic?
Well, yes, it would be ironic. And I think that is what will happen, husband will start to wake up when divorce become final.
One of my uncles passed away today so I've notified husband. He promply sente is respects to be and My family. I thankes. That was it. He always replies,a and is civil, if the matter is a death of a relative.
Still, if I'm not mistaken RCR had not been on this for as long as I am. Also, she was younger than I was when it started and, of course, she is still younger than I am. Given I wanna have children, well, can't keep wating for husband to come out of the fog.
And yes, this thing has started to weathering me down. Way tooooooo much.
If everything happens for a reason, then, the way I'm feeling right now about my standing, marriage and not to want tio be married to husband anymore must also have a reason.
I did not go for any timeline for many years. Until it got to the point when it was: if husband is not out of it by time x, well, I want to have children, so, my working will be towards that, not keep waiting for husband.
Love, I did not like any of the other sites/foruns. They are all very rude, do not have enough information and are not helpful.
Yep, the more we learn about MLC the more we understand, the more able to make an informed decision we are.
Also, again, if I'm not mistaken, RCR speaks in her articles about how it is very hard to recover a marriage if huge financial loss is caused by the MCLer. That is the case with me. The damage was to big.
The irony is that it was this forum that made more, and more aware of being done and not wanting to keep standing for the marriage.
Still, and why should one want to work with the MCLer on a life that gotten broken? Forgiveness and wanting the marriage/spouse back are not one and the same thing. That, I think, is also on RCR articles.
another thing, the now/new me would not want the husband that existed prior to BD. He does not suit my current needs. I've changed. I no longer want the man that existed before MLC. MLCer husband, of course, does not meet my needs. Post-MLC husband, no idea. But I know who meets my needs and it is not pre-MLC husband nor current husband.
Hope this makes sento to you all.
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Post MLC spouse is exactly why we Stand. We don't know who is coming out of the fog. Do we like what we will see. Who knows, but it's the curiosity and the potential that it will be someone we will like keeps us going. Do you stop living in the mean time. OH HELL NO. I am the GAL queen here. Once I learned to live life things began to be better.
I have a darn good life outside of the M. I have no interest in dating and I will NEVER get married again. There is no need. I have my kids and don't want anymore. Do I miss the companionship? Of course I do. That can be replaced in time.
AnneJ, I don't think anyone here believes you to be a bad person. But you are coming off like Eeyore. You don't like the situation you are in and would like to move on. I think everyone can relate to that. But to me you still seem conflicted. You are still so enmeshed in the drama that you keep coming back here trying to justify that you want to move on. WE GET THAT. We support your decision. It's what you want or so you say. If you were confident in that choice, you wouldn't be restating it so many times. It's like you are trying to convince yourself.
Just do what the articles tell you to do. DETACH, GAL, LIVE AS IF. Go find your brass ring. Your H may come looking for you after the D like Inthisforthelonghaul's H. NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE. But please, for your own sake, embrace life. It can be a great one despite the pitfalls. It's all dependent upon what you do with it. Find gratitude. Go do some volunteer work. GottaBeMe's H left her destitute and in ill health. She finds joy in baking fabulous cakes. Forthetree's H's dog bit her and complications have caused her to have MS. She finds joy in cooking and writing songs.
As OP says, you have been given the GIFT OF TIME. It is a limbo where you take the time to find YOURSELF, in spite of your H. You get to choose your path. So finalize the D as quickly as possible and get on with living. You could die tomorrow and all of this will have been for nothing.
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Learning, no conflict. It is just that it looks like most of you want me to save my marriage no matter what. Many of you are religious and think a marriage must not be broken, except, maybe for domestic violence. I do not like divorce but recognise that, sometimes, it will happen.
Well, I've dated, I will date again and will remarry.
I've detached so far that it got me cold. Totally cold and allof towards my husband. Had to made a real efford to find some affection for him. Not trying to convince myself of anything. Decision was already made.
Post- MLC spouse is not why I stand. At least not any more. I stand for me. Post-MLC spouse may be a very interesting future friend or acquaintance. May even like post-MLC crisis husband, but he is still in MLC (that no one knows when will be finished nor how he will be) but I've found who I like.
Divorce finishing is not upon me but husband. He was the one who started fault process number two. On our law I have to contest what he claims, I can not speed it not end it. I can only, if, like fault process number one, it ends closed, start divorce on my own.
I have moved on, but I am still legally attached. That is the situation I do not like. The gift of time, like I've said before, is wonderful, until it turns into too much time. When you've had the time, moved on but are still married it becomes a bad thing.
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Learning, no conflict. It is just that it looks like most of you want me to save my marriage no matter what. Many of you are religious and think a marriage must not be broken, except, maybe for domestic violence. I do not like divorce but recognise that, sometimes, it will happen.
Well, I've dated, I will date again and will remarry.
Anne, I don't think anyone is telling you to stand for your marriage if you are done. It seems like you are being supported in doing whatever is best for you. But most people are on this board specifically because they do want to stand, they do choose hope, and do not want to be discouraged in doing so. I believe that is the point being made, that we all want to be supported and encouraged in our choices, whatever they may be.
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WP, when I first started to read the forum, and then join it, I also was standing and had choose hope. Hope brought no practical results. I have a lot of hope for myself and my live but no longer for my marriage.
I do not discourage anyone from standing. I've done it myself. But each of us change, things change. Of course they can change back again.
I don't feel unsupported but I do feel a bit attacked because of the change that happened since I begun to post. Maybe that is because no one else has gone through it this way?... Maybe some have and had went back to standing for the marriage and again have hope for the marriage. Would like to hear more if someone have been throught this sort or process.
OK, I think it is fair and save to say that, at this point, I have given up on him.
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LBOHG...I love that fact that H gets worried when they don't know where we are.
Wish H knew that I was out more than I am. He drops by the house cause he keeps ladders and other work stuff that he doesn't have room for at his place. Just drops by never tells me he is coming by. Like they are checking up on us.
Wish OW knew all of this stuff
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Crazy LOL yeah the garage door wide open..bringing things in bringing things out. One time he ran out of gas in his own driveway. Came here to get a gas can you can buy for$5 anywhere. :o OW must know. Their antenae is up higher than ours by now. She probably sees a new ladder and starts imagining us and them talking and being around each other....HaHa then they can't know about DUCT TAPE so they start a fight about the ladder :o :o :o :o ;D We on the other hand "got it going on" 8)
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OMG do you really think ow knows how much they contact us?
actually most of the time H comes by OW is sitting in the van waiting for him...now that's crazy. He isn't allowed to be on his own cause he might actually talk to me and enjoy it...LOL
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crazy, why don't you go out some more? You don't want to? Don't like to? Can't?
Ever thought about telling husband he needs to get is work stuff elsewhere? A warehouse, maybe? Some rented storage space?
What about tellinb him he needs to let you know before hand when he is going to drop by? If that is visible given that is work material he keeps at your house.
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Crazy, I don't think they know anything. Remember the article their imagination is going wild. They thought once this story broke we'd file for D. When we don't they're like :o :o :o No Support Forum for losers. :'( So their imagination keeps going and they worry. They're afraid to say anything in the beginning but give it TIME (there's that word again) Can you imagine? They must analyze everything they do. They must try and get a hold of their phone!!!!! LOL
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Anne...I go out as much as I can but H only has kids every other weekend. But I think what I meant was H doesn't know how much I go out cause they aren't around. Hopefully D10 tells him when she visits but don't know for sure.
As far as the work stuff goes- this is the office/storage so everything is stored here cause there are other employees that come by to pick up equipment and stuff as well. No point in moving it all- too much to move and trying to keep costs down so I actually don't mind it being here cause that means ow has to come here to- that's gotta drive her nuts...seeing me and H together...heehee :)
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AnneJ, No one is attacking you. We are the ones on the defensive. We support your decision to move on. Support ours to Stand. You know how hard this is, you've been in it for 5 yrs. But you are really young. I am 52, married 31 yrs in Nov, 4 adult children and even if I choose to divorce, I will never not have contact with my H. I have a lot at stake here.
You, on the other hand can run for the hills as free as a bird and start over. My Best Friend and her first H married young and divorced soon after. No kids and she has no idea where he is or what he is doing.
Be aloof with your H. It doesn't hurt anything. You just need to let go of the bitterness and anger. 5 yrs is a long time to feel those emotions. I stopped talking to my H for 10 days years ago. I still remember the tremendous amount of energy it took to stay mad. It was exhausting.
Have you been done wrong. YES. Do you deserve to be angry. YES. You have been both of these. Now, for your own benefit, please choose to let them go. How have they enhanced your life? Go date. Find someone wonderful. Change teams. Just find some happiness.
Your M may be one of the ones that doesn't survive. But you need to survive the M. You still have a long life ahead of you.
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Annej,
I believe that most here completely understand you wanting to stand down and give up on your h... It's your choice... Your life... Your future. Even RCR has questioned someone in her coaching that didn't have children and was close to not ever becoming a mother if they wanted to stand and take the chance of giving that up. So i do thing we are all empathetic to your sitch. I think what may have rubbed us the wrong way is maybe the way that you wrote some of your questions... For someone who is new and trying to grasp a little hope to get through the early days, or a difficult part of their journey... that little bit of hope that they look for in all of these threads is what keeps them going... So even though you have gone through all these years and your life is taking you in another direction... Others here need help in being lifted up... Just as you need the validation that its OK to make the choice that you have.
(((hugs)))
OMR
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Learning, thanks for your reply. I do respect all of you that stand. It is very hard. And I know that.
Not young enough to starting having children...I think... ???
I'm not angry. I had been for the first couple of years not anymore. Just tired (physically). But not because I'm angry. For several reasons some that have nothing to do with the marriage. Marriage related, it tires to go through court cases (unless you're a lawyer and just love it) and the huge amount of time a simple case takes in my country leaves anyone dead.
But I'm happy... no need to find it. Already find it.
I will survive the marriage. :)
crazy, you're right, if your house is the warehouse/storage room, no need to move everything around. It will cost and more costs are the last thing we need.
OW will surely be driving nuts. But, and plese don't take offense, don'te you think that, sometimes, we buy as much into the drama as MLCer and other person? Or thar we even had to the drama? That, I think, happened a bit during my husband's OW1.
thanks as well, offmyrocker. Yes, people that are new here need the validation. And they always will have it from me.
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Anne..no offense taken. We are here to support but not offend.
As for the drama...yes sometimes we are dragged into it by H- but I pick and choose what I respond to and what I don't. Just feel like I should also play the game every once in a while. Since that is what it feels like- not real life for sure- yet!
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:)
At first, with OW1 I would just react. Later, started to only reacted when I choose to. TIt is a bit like a game, yes. And of course we play it sometimes. Don't think that is much of a problem. For the MCLer it is not. In the end they'll remember nothing.
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With a clinger - yes we do get the whole drama rubbed in our faces a great deal - but as far as reacting to it goes? No, we RESPOND because we have all learnt so much from this wonderful website and forum and all of the people on it.
Of course we're all guilty of initially reacting to the drama before we knew about MLC and what was going on. Actually I think guilty is the wrong word - who on earth wouldn't do that when you have no idea why your previously sane spouse was behaving so badly ......
Sure, we talk about the drama - but usually from the detached stand point of the observer going - what the '???'
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No kidding eh! I couldn't believe what hit me. Talk about reacting... wooooooheeeeeee, I as the master reactor... lol .... where was this BLOODY site when this HIT ME UPSIDE THE HEAD.
Good discussion folks. Just for the record, I don't think "once a cheater, always a cheater either". Some are serial cheaters and nothing is going to change that but most I honestly do not believe they are. I read that there are many more "one night stands" then we would believe. Apparently, they are out, get drunk, carried away and have a one night stand. They return home to their spouse, worry, stress, fear their spouse will find out and the terror of the whole miserable situation, scares them enough, they never put themselves through it again. Others, get off on the excitement, the thrill of possibly getting caught.
Truth folks, we just don't know. As HB is famous for saying, life is one big "crapshoot" at best. Gotta take the RISKS in order to learn to live.
hugs Stayed...
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Actually I think guilty is the wrong word - who on earth wouldn't do that when you have no idea why your previously sane spouse was behaving so badly ......
Sure, we talk about the drama - but usually from the detached stand point of the observer going - what the '???'
You're right, gilty is not the word. One is clueless about waht is going on. Over 5 year ago this site did not existed. I had no idea what was happening, no one around me had a clue.
stayed, even if a one night stand is cheating it is a very different situation than a non MLC emocional affair with sex involved, or a MLC affair. The one night stand, unless the spouse finds out, only affects the cheater. And even if the spouse finds out it is usually easy to get over.
The ones that fet off on the excitment of getting caught will keep doing it.
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I could be wrong, but I think that there are quite a few on this site where the affair started at or around BD, so the MLCer wasn't really hiding an affair while pretending everything was okay. It was more a part of the MLC than the underlying person. I'm thinking that those kind of affairs would be something that could be put in the past without much risk that the MLCer (once recovered) will cheat again. Thoughts??
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LIW,
I see your point and I agree
hugs,
L
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What do you consider around bd, liw? Husband and OW1 come from a few months before BD. But, for what I get, she had an interest for him prior to the affair. Maybe from 5 months priot to the affair.
Must say that, for all I know, no, husband did not had an affair prior to BD. If he did I never found out.
Anyway, for me an affair does not involve living with another person. That is no longer an affair, is move in with someone else. A totally different thing. Am I making sense?...
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I could be wrong, but I think that there are quite a few on this site where the affair started at or around BD, so the MLCer wasn't really hiding an affair while pretending everything was okay. It was more a part of the MLC than the underlying person. I'm thinking that those kind of affairs would be something that could be put in the past without much risk that the MLCer (once recovered) will cheat again. Thoughts??
I agree. This may or may not be the case in my situation, where he, over the years, gave me many reasons to suspect someone else ( craigslist ads seeking Op's, secret email accounts, pictures sent to personal ads... but I never found definite evidence of an other person.
May of 2009, he gave me the speech but I remained in the house, trying my best to work things out. I found out about the Op about a month later. I never knew the details about how they met, how long they were together, etc. as I kicked him out, called the landlord myself and cancelled our lease ( so he wouldn't be allowed to disgrace the apartment we shared ). Then he vanished.
I'm so confused about this. I'm not even absolutely sure he actually cheated. I mean, I feel that he did ( oh, I feel it alright ), but technically, I just don't know. I have no idea who he really is.
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I don't know about all cases; I've come across these 2 examples who'll never do it again:
http://shalomrefuge.com/tkgm/DOCCheatConfession.html
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Wed2H- too bad our H's couldn't read that and snap out of it!!! Ya right...
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oh I've missed so much...
Well once a cheater, you cannot not be one...it isn't possible. That doesn't imply I cannot move on, stand, be angry, happy, sad, p*** off, etc. It is not made with any resentment or bitterness. It is a statment of fact.
I still love my h v. much. I think he finds that v. difficult and would prefer it if I ranted and raved and hated him (as RCR suggests in some of her material) but I don't and at the moment I won't. It may change. However, for some movement to happen in relation to my relationship, then my h needs to own his part as I am doing. I have taken on board much of what he listed as 'my faults.' I can understand and agree with him totally. He too, must find a way of understanding himself if our R is ever to work. Atonement all round.
Sil x
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Well once a cheater, you cannot not be one...it isn't possible. That doesn't imply I cannot move on, stand, be angry, happy, sad, p*** off, etc. It is not made with any resentment or bitterness. It is a statment of fact.
No, it's not. Saying someone had an affair is a statement of fact. Labelling someone a "cheater" is a judgment.
As I said before in this thread, the book His Needs, Her Needs describes case after case of people who end up in an affair because their unfulfilled needs make them susceptible to having one. Retrouvaille meetings are filled with couples that have recovered, and are recovering, from affairs.
Yes, going through with having an affair involves a choice on the part of a wayward spouse; but there is a difference between a person who ends up drawn into an affair because they don't know how to ask for what they need (or their spouse can't or won't give it to them) and ends up connecting with someone who does meet that need, and a person who doesn't believe that relationships are meant to be exclusive or that they deserve to have a little action on the side.
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I'm sorry StillStanding, but NOBODY is DRAWN into an affair.... unless they want to be. It just doesn't work that way. Drawn into something indicates lack of FREE WILL and quite honestly, we all have free will. You would not accept your children being DRAWN into using DRUGS... they were curious, they were intrigued, their friends did it, so they followed suit, but THEY MADE THE CHOICE... nobody stuck the drug down their throat or the needle in their arm (at least not in most cases).
Cheating (affairs) has even LESS likelihood of being coerced or forced into doing it. Please, there is no excuse for ANYBODY to cheat, let's at least be honest and admit, THEY CHOSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.
hugs Stayed
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I totally agree with affairs happening because of needs that arent' being met. Does that excuse it- ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I know for a fact I was not giving my H what he needed in the R and OW DEFINITELY was. But then again...my needs were not being met either but I did not run off and have an affair because there wasn't someone conveniently there in my face giving me what I wasn't getting from my spouse. I believe if the OW wasn't there, not sure if H would have gone LOOKING for an OW or just hung in there until there was reason for him to leave. Does that make sense?
BUT NO excusing the affair at all.....
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Seriously, crazyforhim, if you believe for one minute that if it had not been this woman then it would not have been some OTHER WOMAN, then you are out to lunch. This OW is not meeting his EVERY NEED either... nobody can, or ever will be able to. She is a bandaid...temporary at best... change often.
hugs Stayed
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I know when I've cheated at something - like a game of cards (which I'm actually rubbish at anyway but hey...!) I know in my heart. I know in my shame and guilt. It doesn't make me a bad, evil, awful person but...for me I did some 'lying' in this process. I tried putting all the blame on my h for eg when he put it all on me. That was cheating too. It cannot be all his fault - nor all mine. But....to mend I have to heal (hopefully he will too one day) to heal I have to open up the wound first. I certainly didn't like admitting my naff ups but it has helped me move - not always forward I might add but move and move is change and....well 'nuff said!!!!
Sil x
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Yes Stayed..that's what I was trying to say. It was someone..anyone that was there TRYING to meet his needs (or what he thinks will fill his needs) I know it is a bandaid...I was just trying to say that it didn't matter who was there to catch him but there was someone there to catch him otherwise I think he would have hung onto the cliff for as long as it took until someone came along to catch him. (anyone but ME)
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Ok... gottcha crazyforme... :o can't seem to follow the plot today... hehehe :o . You are so right, he was looking for something wasn't he and as you said, ANYBODY BUT YOU! Mine was the same way... grrrrrrrrrrrr >:( Some choice words just ran through my mind, but I am going to resist... but it's hurting bad... :-X
hugs Stayed
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I'm just not as good with words as you are stayed...LOL! And yes, the hurt is unbelievable sometimes but you are one who always seems to know what to say.
Now we need to be the ones to catch them when they are about to fall off the cliff...should be soon cause you can only hang on for so long, right?
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Cheating (affairs) has even LESS likelihood of being coerced or forced into doing it. Please, there is no excuse for ANYBODY to cheat, let's at least be honest and admit, THEY CHOSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.
Yes, they did. And I even stated that.
But people make choices for the wrong reasons all of the time; it's part of being human (the "sinful nature of man", if you subscribe to that particular belief). I don't know if you've noticed, but just about every thread on this forum has people who have done—or are still doing!—things out of fear, or anger, or weakness; they "just can't help themselves" when they start pressuring their MLCer, or they "need" to ask questions they know they don't want to hear the answers to. If we LBSes get a pass because we're hurting, how come our MLCers don't when they're hurting? Heck, at least we know that we're in crisis, so what's our excuse?!
I have a question for people who believe "once a cheater, always a cheater"; if your MLCer has had an affair, why are you Standing? They're still going to be a "cheater" when they come out of the tunnel. Aren't you worried that they are going to do this again? Or is your plan to be a reminder of their moral failings—are you thinking of introducing your spouse as "Mr. or Mrs. XXX, the cheater"?
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." —Matthew 7:1-2
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Still, a normal affair and a MLC affair are very different. I know people that have had affairs, normal ones, none of them did what our MCLers have. As soon as they got caught they tried to solve the situation. Even the ones that end up divorced because the spouse did not wished to be married, were not mean, cruel, nasty or abandoned the spouse or kids. It is very easy to recover from a normal affair compared to a MLC affair.
Sorry but I don’t subscribe to the unfulfilled needs theory in MLC. Maybe in a normal affair that is true 8even so I have my doubts, most of the times the argument of unfulfilled needs is just an excuse for bad behaviour), but not in MCL. Even with all theirs needs more than fulfilled MCLers would still have an affair. And there are non MLC people who have all theirs needs meet by the spouse and still have affairs. I know some like that as well. They are addict to the rush that comes with the affair. That’s all. And the rush that comes with the affair is not a need, is an addiction.
Again, the LBS did not created the hurt nor the destruction. Sorry, I know the MCLers are in crisis but that is not a free pass to run over the LBS, let alone to excuse their behaviour. Even less to have the LBS think it is their fault or they have some flaw that took the MCLer into its crisis.
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Still, a normal affair and a MLC affair are very different. I know people that have had affairs, normal ones, none of them did what our MCLers have. As soon as they got caught they tried to solve the situation. Even the ones that end up divorced because the spouse did not wished to be married, were not mean, cruel, nasty or abandoned the spouse or kids. It is very easy to recover from a normal affair compared to a MLC affair.
I don't know that I'd call recovering from any kind of affair "easy", but I do agree that the affairs MLCer have are not the same as the ones non-MLCers have. But I wasn't just referring to affairs rooted in MLC.
Sorry but I don’t subscribe to the unfulfilled needs theory in MLC. Maybe in a normal affair that is true 8even so I have my doubts, most of the times the argument of unfulfilled needs is just an excuse for bad behaviour),
Got a source for that? Or is that just your own opinion?
but not in [MLC]. Even with all theirs needs more than fulfilled MCLers would still have an affair.
I totally agree.
And there are non MLC people who have all theirs needs meet by the spouse and still have affairs. I know some like that as well. They are addict to the rush that comes with the affair. That’s all. And the rush that comes with the affair is not a need, is an addiction.
So far we seem to be in agreement; There are addictive/compulsive and borderline/narcissistic personality types, and there are people who have an affair and, when caught, either file for divorce and run, or they try to make amends.
Again, the LBS did not created the hurt nor the destruction. Sorry, I know the MCLers are in crisis but that is not a free pass to run over the LBS, let alone to excuse their behaviour. Even less to have the LBS think it is their fault or they have some flaw that took the MCLer into its crisis.
I never said that is was an excuse, but it is an explanation. And it doesn't change the fact that labelling someone a "cheater" is not a statement of fact; rather it is an opinion.
Which brings me back to my question: If you believe that there is no excuse for infidelity, and that "once a cheater, always a cheater", why do you Stand?
I haven't kept up on your particular situation, but I remember you quite emphatically referring to your husband as a "criminal" and said that he is a person that you would never choose to be involved with if you were just meeting him now. If you really think your husband is a criminal, why are you Standing? He's still going to be the person that lied in court about his affairs. All I've seen you say in response is that you are Standing "for you", but what does that mean? Are you hoping that you can work through the anger and the feelings of betrayal and can come to love and respect him again? If so, I think that's fantastic and I hope for the best. If not, then why?
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Compared with this I would recover from a normal affair pretty easily.
Sorry but I don’t subscribe to the unfulfilled needs theory in MLC. Maybe in a normal affair that is true even so I have my doubts, most of the times the argument of unfulfilled needs is just an excuse for bad behaviour),
Got a source for that? Or is that just your own opinion?
My opinion. In MLC they are to messed up, to confused to know what they want, what they need or what need is unfulfilled. So, don't think it is so much a case of unfulfilled needs but more of feeling they are running out of time to do certain things, or having (like Thundarr's client) a feeling of drowning and that OW/OM is going to solve that.
Which brings me back to my question: If you believe that there is no excuse for infidelity, and that "once a cheater, always a cheater", why do you Stand?
MLC is, in itself an explanation for infidelity. I understand logic, so, I can get that the reason for my husband affairs where the MLC. But that does not excuse, or gives him a free pass from his responsabillities and actions. He his accountable for his deeds. “Once a cheater always a cheater” in the sense that, once a world champion, always a world champion. You cannot erase that action. Now, will the person who cheated do it again? Depends. Don’t think my husband will do it again after the crisis, but it is true that, by now, he had learned many bad things, including out to go behind my back, so, he is not the man I knew and I cannot be certain. Does this makes sense? I have not seen him in over 3.5 years, only hear of him trough the court, there was not (yet) a time to have a sense of what type of person he has become (think he is still becoming something).
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I haven't kept up on your particular situation, but I remember you quite emphatically referring to your husband as a "criminal" and said that he is a person that you would never choose to be involved with if you were just meeting him now. If you really think your husband is a criminal, why are you Standing? He's still going to be the person that lied in court about his affairs. All I've seen you say in response is that you are Standing "for you", but what does that mean? Are you hoping that you can work through the anger and the feelings of betrayal and can come to love and respect him again? If so, I think that's fantastic and I hope for the best. If not, then why?
Well, he is a criminal (a fact, not an opinion). He did not lied to the court about his affairs (he never presented them as a reason for his fault divorce process nor ever mentioned them). He lied about his address and withheld relevant information to the cases. Those things are criminal, and not civil, offenses. At the eyes of the law, if you commit a criminal action you are a criminal. So determined the court, not I. Of course at this point I would not be involved with a man like my husband. Who wants to be involved with a married man that is in the middle of court cases, has already been told he cannot have his way, and keeps insisting, lives the life of a speedy party boy teenager? Not me. Even if he was divorced I would never be involved with a man that would not meet his obligations before his former wife and, case they have them, kids.
Of course he will still be the person that lied to the court, did all those things and that the court charged for a criminal offense. But there is a difference between someone who has been all that in the past and had make mends (to himself, to those he hurt) and anknowledge his actions and the hurt that came with them, and someone that is still in the middle of committing his actions. So, if we know that a person is still in the middle of a bunch of troubles, we can choose not to be near them, can we not? And we can also choose to, if/when they come out of their troubles, take stock for their actions and really repent, top take, or not to take them back. Everyone is entitled to redeem themselves. Or at least, so I think.
Yes, I’m standing for myself. That is pretty much all I can do now. Have no idea when my husband’s crisis will end (or if. I’m inclined to think he will be trapped, given the friendships, lifestyle and world he got himself into, that promote and endorse very regressive/juvenile ways and have no praise whatsoever for marriage or responsibilities and the fact that he has become very successful in his new professional life. It is hard to give up fame and success, two other addictions) and how he will be after it, let alone if I would like him. I do not like the version that existed since a few months before BD until present. I did liked the version that existed since he was 17 and until 20 years later.
Anger and betrayal are taken care of. I love him but I don't respect him. Would like to one day do so again, even if we were no longer married, but, at the moment, I do not. Nor do I trust him.
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I never said that is was an excuse, but it is an explanation. And it doesn't change the fact that labelling someone a "cheater" is not a statement of fact; rather it is an opinion.
Yes - it is not a statement of fact...nor are most things: they are beliefs, values, opinions. What consitutes a fact? Reality. What is reality to one is not necessarily reality to another. You might say evidence is fact - well that depends what you base it on. My evidence that my H was having affair, while still married to me, was discovered through messages (hard evidence you could say). This became fact once he confirmed it. We all judge and judgements are subjective - that's why we can change our opinions for good or ill. If however it becomes a fact (as the affair) then it cannot be altered ie You cannot alter the past you can only change the present.
Sil x