Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses

Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: MarkedandHealed on June 29, 2010, 06:05:35 AM

Title: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 2.
Post by: MarkedandHealed on June 29, 2010, 06:05:35 AM
Hey all, I was just playing on my itunes and found a few podcasts that were on midlife crisis. I'm just starting to listen through them. However, I am half way through the first and I wanted to come on and recommend it. If the others are good also, I'll post them later.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/straight-talk-for-women-blog/id309529140

You can also find it in your itunes under Straight Talk For Women - Can Your Marriage Survive Midlife Crisis. This woman's husband is a minister and he went through MLC and they both talk about it and what to do. She also has some adultery podcasts that I'll subscribe to after I'm out of work.

Enjoy!

previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1231.0
Title: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: With Gods Help! on November 06, 2011, 04:19:40 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm very interesting xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

RCR Comment: Please do not post complete articles of someone else's published work. Give an excerpt and a link to the full article or an exceprt and cite the source.

Quote from: excerpt
Now That You Are Separated

Put some distance between you. Disengaging is hard. Whether you were together for a long time or the relationship was very intense, your dreams, values, and emotions are tied to the other person - that's normal. If you were have some codependent or narcissistic traits , or are insecure - then you are even more entwined. This is why it is hard to let go.

The longer you stay connected, the longer it will take to disengage, heal, and move forward.

Initially, it is best to end all “personal” discussions - stay away from comments like “how do you feel”, “what are you doing” or making any value statements like “you really should see a therapist”.

Conduct your business and move along. Do not meet alone, bring an outside observer, or meet in a very public place. Keep the conversations strictly on the topic (e.g., exchanging the children, making a business decision, etc) and if the former partner gets personal, end the conversation. The same advice goes for e-mail, if it gets personal, don't respond. Send personal mail back unopened (e.g., cards, etc) with no note. Do not do anything that could be interpreted as a message.

All this will help you disconnect.
For more: http://hopebackman.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/now-what/ (http://hopebackman.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/now-what/)

Quote from: excerpt
Leaving a Person With Borderline Personality Disorder

The beginnings of a relationship with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) can be intoxicating when your partner is brimming with jubilation because you are in their life. Then inexplicable dark moments of resentment begin breaking through the infatuation and your partner acts in cold and even cruel ways. These extreme highs and lows are commonplace in “Borderline” relationships.

In the most troubled relationships, it is not uncommon for a BPD partner to unexpectedly abandon the relationship or do something so hurtful that one cannot continue. Your partner may emotionally discard you or become abusive - leaving you to feel oppressed and broken. Or you have invested yourself in the relationship and all the latest communication and relationship tools, but the relationship has eroded and you have no more to give.

So they leave you - or you break up with them - or one of you finally decides not to reconcile, yet again. If any of this is you, read on.
For more: http://bpdfamily.blogspot.com/2010/12/leaving-person-with-borderline_28.html (http://bpdfamily.blogspot.com/2010/12/leaving-person-with-borderline_28.html)

Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 06, 2011, 04:47:41 PM
Thanks for posting WGH - I truly had no idea people like this existed until the last couple of years!!
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: With Gods Help! on November 06, 2011, 04:57:20 PM
Hi Kiki i thought this could either way was it our spouses once mlc took over or is ow/om ????????????? and what if their is no other person......i can recognize many of these behaviors in quite a few mlcers xxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 06, 2011, 05:56:58 PM
   This is probably why LGs H has to go break up with OW so often.  LG where art thou?
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: With Gods Help! on November 06, 2011, 06:02:31 PM
Ohhhhhhhhhh Mamma lmao you really crack me up......in a good way mind i wish i could meet you in RL.........it would make this whole process of mlc worth it lol ...........and yeah where is LG wonder if shes giving her h some good loving before he runs again keep them memories going LG  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: LettingGo on November 06, 2011, 06:28:45 PM
I'm here, but just for a minute!! Sadly, my husband couldn't resist stopping at OW's in CT on his way home to PA from Canada.... I last heard from him Thursday night when he called to RANT about his job, yada, yada.... he WAS legitimately frustrated... but it was also a SETUP for not making it home on Friday.... I had forwarded him some Mortgage info he needs to attend to as far as our new home purchase on NOVEMBER 18Th, and I got an email "reply" on Saturday... something about "I can't wait 'til we get this house and finally have a HOME!! Love you!! I'll take care of this when I get home..."

Now, we all know that was just him trying to CONVINCE me of..... I dont' know what, quite frankly..... there is no dummy stupid enough to believe that he's working all weekend.... uh..... I think I've seen this about a million times before....

So, I've had some cycling.... not too bad, but what can you do? He can't manage himself right now and must really be swirling about the house, but HEY..... it was HIS idea to buy it, LOL!! I'm just going along with the plan! Hope he likes all of the stuff I'm picking out.... ;D ;D

I cannot possibly fathom WHY the OW sh** is still going on, other than the MLC timeline and crazy enmeshment with OW..... it's very discouraging and disheartening, I won't lie... to see him struggle and feel compassion and want to root for him, but then....it hurts to find that this time is just another FAILURE... :-\

I'm used to this whole crap, so I switched to plan B and took care of the contractor busines... see... I don't get to AVOID and ESCAPE..... and had my parents over for Saturday and Sunday.. tired from it, but we had a good visit and they did the yard work, LOL!! I do hate that he seems to time his escape to OW's just when I finally get a weekend off.... like everything else in MLC, he is missing out on SO MUCH GOOD and potential fun and love and WASTING his life on staying drunk and fighting with a stupid skank all weekend.... I don't know how he will ever forgive himself.... he will have MAJOR regrets....

Never fear, Mr. LG will text around 10am tomorrow morning asking if I will be home for him to stop by and "get me some gas" on his way to a job or whatever... OR, he will gain enough courage to CALL around the same time with "HI, HONEY!! I'm about 3 hours away... are you working today?" as if he doesn't know.... more like he doesn't CARE... it's all fake. My PLAN is to be OUT, or if IN, to zip my lips and not get into it.... but if he starts in with that bullsh** story and about how awful it was to have to stay through Saturday and how his Stupid BOSS doesn't know what he's doing, yada, yada... I will have to calmly tell him to STOP the insanity... he told me he KNOWS I don't believe his lies, but he WISHES I did, so that I wouldn't get hurt... :o

Maybe the house will serve to draw him back, but there is no MAGIC button that will snap him out of it... if cutting him off completely would do the trick, then he would have been home a year ago.... they PANIC if you kick em to the curb... they PANIC and try and run back to you, but it won't last.... they must finish up what the MLC started. Too bad they destroy themselves and their loved ones in the interim.

Mamma, i love reading your descriptions...... I really do!! Love to all... LG
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 06, 2011, 06:36:17 PM
  LG In God's Time and how and when you least expect it.
  Really is amazing that we found each other. Imagine being like RCR or Stayed or HB and having to go it alone.  :o :o :o
  I'd probably be remarried by now. LOL!!! ::)  a nice Jewish doctor perhaps ???
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 06, 2011, 06:42:16 PM
OMG - that reminded me of one of my H's many lines at BD!

'You'll be okay, you deserve much better than this - you'll remarry a Doctor' (huh? why a doctor?)

Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 06, 2011, 06:45:59 PM
  KiKi It's a mindset. A beautiful woman should be able to marry a doctor and never have to worry.  It's something you deserve. Not the MLCer with low self worth.  He thinks you're too good for him! ???  It's a compliment before they run down the street to get away from all of that beauty and deserving qualities.
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 06, 2011, 06:48:31 PM
Well thank you - that finally shed some light on that puzzling statement for me  :o :o :o

I think you've hit the nail on the head - for months following BD he'd come round, shaking his head, saying how beautiful I was, but that this wasn't about that  :o :o :o

As he had no clue what it actually was about - it's a wonder that he was able to articulate that much - LOL
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 06, 2011, 06:56:16 PM
  KiKI It is so wonderful we have each other to help through this. It makes no sense except in the context of DGU pulling articles out to remind us we're stuck in a blender on puree. :o  or grate or chop :-\  When we tell each other the crap that is coming out of their mouths we sound so strange. Only bc we get it.
   At BD my said "Give it a couple weeks we can be friends."
   Who in their right mind talks that way to their spouse and partner for 15 years?
   Taking furniture you think is yours?  Blaming me if the Ds cry over anything. "Well you were probably telling them I'd be back."   How someone who is so arrogant and ignorant can still have such a loyal and forgiving spouse is beyond me.
  Doormat? No I'm going to start playing whack a mole with him as soon as the dopamine from infatuation wears off. :o :o :o :o :o
   
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: With Gods Help! on November 06, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Hey Mamma you might be on to something there.........when i was doing my nursing degree my h said he thought i would leave him for a Doctor lol...........maybe i should have done before he run off with skankho...........i wonder if he would have stood for me lol and Mama my h said the same as your h we could be friends once id got used to the idea he was gone :o :o :o :o he also said me and o/w would have made great friends under different circumstances >:( >:( >:( >:( i said never i don't hang around with home wrecking owrs so you can get that out of your warped brain..........i also said and don't introduce that bitach to my kids cos if you do i will be up at her house causing holy sh*t.........and guess what he didn't...he wont even let his FOO meet her lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 06, 2011, 07:08:09 PM
I agree - I am so grateful on a daily basis for you all.  I truly don't know how those wonderful pioneers managed (RCR, Stayed, HB) on their own - they were a bit like Sir Edmund Hillary only MINUS Sherpa Tensing Norgay!!!

'Give it a couple of weeks - we can be friends' LOL  That makes it all okay then.  You must be feeling so relieved  :o :o :o
I can just imagine the cosy family dinners around your table - you and your H, your gorgeous girls, oh and of course BOWSER!   :P

Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 06, 2011, 07:18:01 PM
  My Ds just told me Hs stuff is in one section of the apt and hers is separate in another area. :)  I love when my kids talk with food in their mouth and these memories from yesterday come out. These kids should work for the Enquirer. They get more dirt and gossip on this broken desperate phoney fantasy fueled love affair then Kitty Kelly could ever have. :o :o :o :o :o :o  Whose thread am I hijacking now? ???
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 06, 2011, 07:25:58 PM
Their own halves of the apartment!!! That's actually really interesting from an anthropological perspective!  :)
My H (21 mths post BD), beginning to awaken oh so slowly - told me the other day that he has made it very clear to OW that she will never be tied to him financially.  He proudly told me they each buy their own groceries, (think student flat) and that they even buy their own cups of coffee when out.  :o :o :o
Romantic?  Not ......

We then all went out the next day, and I bought him a cup of coffee - I was trying not to giggle at the picture of these two selfish, screwed up people going about their lives - kind of together.  But not!

Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: With Gods Help! on November 06, 2011, 07:41:36 PM
Hey kiki stranger things have happened my MIL is best friends with her deceased h's o/w from yrs ago...he died at the age 37 but produced an affair child..........the child was 18 months old when he died....but MIL eventually came round to the idea and they had him every other weekend........so when her h died she continued to have her h's son because she wanted to keep the bond with her kids and she had grown to love him.............but let me tell you o/w went through hell with my MIL..she told me about the time she found out he was having a MLC affair......remember back then there were technology like now.....she climbed in to boot of her h's car.....pulled down the boot door but stopped it from closing so she could climb out when they reached o/w's house anyway...she said the car came to a standstill she waited til her h got out and walked to the door.........she listened for him to go in then went to climb out..........only the boot door had closed and she couldnt get out.........she had to wait in there hours til her h came out.........she said she began knocking and shouting and her h heard her but decided to leave her in there for a bit as punishment.......she said i was rigid by the time he let her out.......i was howling can you imagine her face when he opened it and his.........she put herself through that and didnt get o/w address she did manage a few wks later though.....she said she went round and knocked on her door but o/w wouldn't answer.........however o/w didn't lock her door so mil marched straight in  :o :o :o :o and o/w didn't even raise her head.....so mil picked up a metal poker put it through her television and said you screw my freaking husband and you cant even look at me you ignorant owr..she said now the telly cant distract you now look at me..........she asked o/w alsorts of questions.........o/w tried to deny it at first til mil spotted a suit jacket of her h's there.........he was a smart man and always wore suits.....mil stormed upstairs found some more suits in the wardrobe she took them out brought them down on the hangers hung them on the washing line and cut off the arm and sleeves :o :o :o :o :o i swear if it was happening to her now she would be locked up thank god they didn't have mobiles back then.........mil ripped out the phone line so o/w couldn't ring her h at work or the police and guess what her h didnt say anything .........this is why although mil is friends with her h's o/w..........she will never welcome my h's o/w in her house because shes been where i am xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 06, 2011, 07:52:43 PM
That is a fantastic story WGH - I would so love to do this - but of course, we've all read our LBS scripts - so we'll keep it in our fantasy boxes!!

What a gutsy woman your MIL is.  And to be friends with the OW - wow!  That child is a lucky kid  ;D
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Synicca on November 07, 2011, 07:17:22 AM
The more I read about BPD, the more I am convinced Honey's OW has this!

my BFF has bypolar disorder and she says that BPD can be confused with bypolarism...but that they are so simular
one is "chemical" and the other is "environmental"

A BPD person has major "abandonement" issues and therefor, learn at a very young age how to manipulate anyone in their path to
get what they want. They will sabotage their R's intentionally and then "beg" for forgiveness when they feel their partner distance
themselves from them.

Very telling...mix that with someone in MLC and you have a whirlwind of chaos!
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 07, 2011, 07:34:14 AM
Synn, Remember that Blog Love anyway article about Clingy Boomerangs?  RCR says she thinks that Clingy Boomerangs attract or are attracted to people with BPD.  Bowser has this I'm sure.
  Heck the first time and the only time she saw my Ds she told them her Dad abandoned her.  :o :o :o   So it's OK then?  Right?  Remind me of my unconditionals quick I'm gonna call her something besides Bowser.............That confused woman who is sleeping with my H and pretending they are meant to be together forever!!!!!!!!! ::)
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Synicca on November 07, 2011, 07:41:23 AM
Remember Mamma...Even though the BPD partner KNOWS how to manipulate...your MLCer is in the FOG and cant SEE her
for what she really is...

Give him time, Right now...I believe honey is "starting" to really see that OW is off a bit..LOL

I am just waiting for the "TRUTH" to manifest and he peaks out of the tunnel long enough to really grasp that it IS her and not him.
He blames himself because he has ( like this article ) treated OW alot like SHE has treated HIM...and that causes him to TRY and act
"better" so that "maybe" she will be nicer. It doesnt work. but he has tried this since the beginning. Ugh!

Soon, when he realises that SHE used him...He will start to see just how bad it REALLY was. :D
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 07, 2011, 07:46:56 AM
 Still unbelievable. My Ds always tell me about when they are at Bowser's apt the ashtrays are disgusting on the coffee table. She leaves it there. :o :o   My house is so nice.  Can't believe the downward spiral they sign up for. Can't believe the things they say or do.   ???   I mean now I CAN believe it I am seeing this with my own eyes.
 Interesting what you referred to about  "He treats her like she treats him"   and it's not so great is it?
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Synicca on November 07, 2011, 07:51:09 AM
nope, It has been toxic from the beginning...but because like he said this morning..He knows that he had said some terrible things
to her..but that it doesnt excuse her behaviour.

They have never really got along...and someone "sane" would wonder what the "hold" is they have on eachother. If Honey had not been going through MLC, I believe 100% that he wouldnt have given her a second look, let alone a first.
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Mamma Bear on November 07, 2011, 08:20:31 AM
 I firmly believe that too! When we first moved to this town we now own a house in, we looked for an apt. Some of them were run down wrecks like where he is now. I remember telling him that the dumps would be OK temporarily until we found a house. He said "No way!. You're a pharmacist. You make excellent $$. We will not live like this."     OK? So but with Bowser and in crisis it's Mara Lago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) Got it. Have fun over there MR. 180.  It's ok really it is.    LOL! :P
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 07, 2011, 11:42:43 AM
  Remind me of my unconditionals quick I'm gonna call her something besides Bowser.............That confused woman who is sleeping with my H and pretending they are meant to be together forever!!!!!!!!! ::)

For the first 15months post BD, I used to call the OW sk*nk Ho!  I even said it to my H a few times.  It was a surefire was to invite a visit from Monster.
I zipped my lips for a few months and didn't mention her again, until a week ago.
I called her the '40yr old dysfunctional, childless spinster FLOOSIE!'  (unfortunately she is reasonably attractive on the outside - reasonably, in a plastic bleached kind of way), and I was astounded when he said yes, she is.  He then called her 'Floosie' a couple of times (in a sincere tone) during the rest of the conversation.

It sounded kind of old fashioned and funny at the same time, coming out of his mouth.  So - Floosie it is.  (it reminds me of something my Grandma might have said!)  ;D

And Syn ' your H said that they have treated each other the same'.  That is really interesting.  What a weird mixed up mess this is.  It must be their Anterior Cingulate Gyrus functioning badly!!   :o :o :o
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Synicca on November 07, 2011, 11:57:05 AM
Kikki,


I believe that OW got most if not ALL of Honey's monster...Which was supposed to be that way...As I believe everything happens for a reason, it was meant for them to fight this out...I didnt show anger towards him....We hadnt had any fights with eachother
for about 4 years before BD...so he didnt have any reason to take this out on me, but because OW is a BPD person...it was the "perfect storm" for him to work his FOO issues out.

Hope that made sense??  LOL :D
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: kikki on November 07, 2011, 12:35:40 PM
That is really interesting Syn.
I know from checking my H's cellphone once, that back in May of this year, he was apologising to her for being so grumpy and bad tempered all of the time.  Sounds like she got her fair share of his monster too.
So glad to hear things are moving forwards for you Syn.
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: With Gods Help! on November 26, 2011, 07:29:17 PM
Oooops sorry RCR only just seen your comments :-[ :-[ wanted to bump this thread up for synnica xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: This is a very interesting article on Borderline Personaility Disorder!!!!
Post by: Synicca on November 26, 2011, 07:31:53 PM
LOL Thanks!! I knew it was in here somewhere!!! ;)

((hugs))
Title: a parenting article
Post by: Trustandlove on November 21, 2012, 01:30:43 AM
Hi, all,

This came in my inbox this morning; I thought it was a well-written article.  Not all of us are parents, but this speaks to me in many ways.  One of the things that I've been learning through this process is how to be more open and honest, which has helped in all sorts of relationships, with friends and other family members and even work colleagues, as well as of course my children. 

http://www.theparentpractice.com/news/2012/11/modelling-is-80-of-parenting-part-ii/

I've been very open with my children about what is and isn't good behaviour; we've even talked about what makes and doesn't make a good role model.  And as such it applies indirectly to MLC, in that they learn to distinguish good behaviour from bad, and also that bad behaviour doesn't necessarily mean that the person is bad as such. 
Title: Re: a parenting article
Post by: iamnottheenemy on November 21, 2012, 04:33:00 AM
The part that has me worried is number three, "Make Amends and Move Forwards."  This early in the ball game, I can't see how H is going to be able to look at his mistakes, apologize and reflect on how he could have reacted differently. He is still in denial, unable or unwilling to see that his actions are having a major impact on his relationship with D.
Title: Re: a parenting article
Post by: Trustandlove on November 21, 2012, 04:44:03 AM
You're right; he can't reflect on that yet, not at all.

That part for them takes so much time I can't even describe it.  I've actually had conversations with my H where I've given examples of how to do this, using myself as fodder rather than him, talking about the kids, all sorts of things.  It just doesn't compute at this point.

Regarding that, the best we can do is to plant seeds and to model behaviour, rather like with a child.

What this article does do, however, is to remind us that when we are dealing with our children, we can model behaviour that is in line with our values, and teach THEM what is right, so that they will see for themselves that they can love their MLC parent without condoning his or her actions.   

Again, when the child is small it's planting seeds, with older ones discussions can be more open. 

IANTE, you are right, they can't see that their actions are having an impact on their r with their children, especially not this early in the game.  I think my MLCer is only slowly thinking that perhaps it has had an effect, as he said a few months ago that he "wanted to get them back in his life", at least recognising that they weren't really in it, but he STILL puts the onus on them, saying that they aren't wanting to be with him, and doesn't clearly see that it should be him doing all he can to be with THEM. 

It takes ages. 
Title: Proof of the alien theory
Post by: forthetrees on December 09, 2012, 10:54:56 AM
Please read: http://news.yahoo.com/humans-controlled-tiny-parasites-180652943.html

also explains the urge to refer to the MLCer as a r@t b@$t@rd.
Title: Re: Proof of the alien theory
Post by: Ready2Transform on December 09, 2012, 11:28:24 AM
First off,  ;D ;D ;D ;D @ r@t b@st@rd!

But then  :o, because we have always had rescue cats (took part in a lot of spay/neuter clinics, too as volunteers), and at the time Hoss left, we had 6, one of which was a newbie he'd rescued from a rest stop along the highway. 

The plot thickens in this sci-fi horror show...
Title: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: forthetrees on January 25, 2013, 05:38:39 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/theres-more-to-life-than-being-happy/266805/

And there you have it- they seek happiness- spending, freedom of responsibility b/c they cannot fathom the meaning of their lives and the happiness factor is devoid of meaning.
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: onlyjo on January 25, 2013, 06:33:43 PM
FTT
wow.  right on the money.  and they are the takers...the LBS are the givers, to make a generalized statement.  it makes so much sense to me after reading all the stories on the board--stories about LBS who have meaning in life by parenting, or faith, or through adversity (of MLC and more!)...we are the givers.  and the MLCers are running, escaping, and avoiding finding meaning by constant pursuit of "happiness".

i remember having a conversation with my h prior to BD, during which i told him "i think you're just a gaping maw of neediness".  now this makes a lot of sense. HE IS!  he'll take anything from anybody if it makes him feel "happy".  and according to MIL, he's always been "selfish". 

so i am wondering now if i h has always been so (what i consider) damaged...so needy, such a taker, always focused on "happiness" and the lack thereof...in which case, i feel like i did not choose wisely when it came to choice of spouse...

onlyjo
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: iamnottheenemy on January 26, 2013, 12:54:02 AM
Good read.
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: Thundarr on January 26, 2013, 06:57:42 AM
Yep.  XW was the baby of the family and always content with taking.  Perhaps it was when she realized that due to parenting responsibilities and her aging parents she would have to start giving back.  Makes me take a look at this differently, but also reinforces the belief this will not end the way I want it to unless I want to be an enabler the rest of my life, which I will not under any circumstance.
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: cherryblossom on January 26, 2013, 09:19:01 AM
A fascinating read, FTT- thanks for sharing :)

I've been reading so much on this topic - around how it's important to find your purpose in life so that it has meaning.

I feel sad for my H when I read about this, because I see that he has no meaning in his life.  He has never been motivated to pursue anything except this intangible and ever-shifting notion of happiness.  So he has TAKEN a LOT - short-term fulfillment from sex, buying himself lots of stuff and even seeking validation from his friends and now OW.  Maybe one day (hopefully soon) he will find some meaning within himself - something that ignites a fire in his belly.  I have this myself and I know how much it adds to my life.  Without it I would feel empty....

:) x
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: Trustandlove on January 26, 2013, 04:34:52 PM
Truly a good read, for ourselves especially.  Yes, we can all say that our MLCers are just looking for happiness rather than meaning, but it is also good to reflect on what we are doing as well.

And in regard to my MLCer, he wasn't always this kind of taker, this is the MLC persona.  I remember us talking about that kind of meaning, and it used to be important to him as well.  Reminds me that the core him is still in there somewhere. 
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: Standing in Patience on January 26, 2013, 04:48:07 PM
Thundarr, I recently read an article that said last born children are more likely to divorce. I can't remember where I say it though. Bet you can find it if you "google" it. Last born and in mlc makes for a bad combination.
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: Anjae on January 26, 2013, 05:33:07 PM
How great, an article about Viktor Frankl. I really like his thought/ideas. Especially the one about if you still have hope, you survive.

But I see nothing wrong with being happy. The real happy = joy. Mr J was always a big giver, more than me, I think. His MLC self is his total opposite. And that is the most strange of things for me. 
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: calamity on January 26, 2013, 06:48:02 PM
There's nothing wrong with being happy, it is just when you pursue it you are doomed.

Good article FTT.  I'll have to research more on Frankl.
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: Phoenix on January 26, 2013, 11:16:04 PM
I highly recommend Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl. It definitely puts MLC in perspective.

Thanks for the article, FTT, and for the always great support.

Thinking of you,
Phoenix
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: Trustandlove on January 27, 2013, 01:13:40 AM
Quote
There's nothing wrong with being happy, it is just when you pursue it you are doomed. 

I completely agree that there is nothing wrong with being happy -- and would modify the above to say that when you have that as your primary goal, when you pursue it to the exclusion of other thing, that it doesn't work.

Say I feel happy with a new outfit, for example.  That's lovely -- and nothing at all wrong with that.  But if I then make having new outfits my primary goal it quickly goes sour. 

I think that meaning in life is also what we talk about and call joy here. 
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: forthetrees on January 27, 2013, 04:57:05 AM
Entropy is the natural course of events without an input of energy. Relationships and life require emotional and physical energy. MLC is what happens when the energy is not invested.
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 27, 2013, 06:23:24 AM
What an eye opening article. You are always finding really thought provoking and unusual info. Thank you for posting this.
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: calamity on January 27, 2013, 08:55:25 AM
CBC Podcast Say no to happiness from last year. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/02/14/say-no-to-happiness-2/  I think in response to the 100's of books on Happiness.  2 hours but podcasts are great for journeys.

Guess I shouldn't have been so flippant when my h said, 'Is that all there is to life?' [born, reproduce, die].  I replied impatiently, 'yep'.  [no h, you can find your soulmate & live happily ever after...in Happyland].   >:( ;)
Title: Re: Happiness versus Meaning- Atlantic article
Post by: kikki on January 28, 2013, 01:28:19 AM
Thanks for the interesting read FTT. 
My H was very much a giver before his MLC hit. 

I see their endless search for 'happiness' as being a symptom of the crisis, not who they used to be.  A bit like the OW is. Yet another band aid fix that is going nowhere fast.
Title: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Thundarr on January 29, 2013, 03:08:15 AM
http://www.essence.com/2013/01/18/ask-dr-sherry-i-just-left-my-husband-now-what/?XID=OUTBRAIN_EE

This article absolutely pissed me off this morning.  This so-called "doctor" pretty much tells this woman to go have an MLC and gives her the "You go, girl!!" bull$hit that my XW and so many others get from society.  She is absolutely PRAISING this woman for breaking her marital vows and buys right into the stupid excuses of the woman's H being "controlling and mentally abusive."  As we all know, those accusations are unprovable and are most often used as excuses just for this very reason - so they don't actually have to PROVE their spouse did anything.  Again, absolutely disgusting!!
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Freddygone on January 29, 2013, 03:39:14 AM
I agree completely. It seems the current idea is to accuse the spouse of being 'controlling' because we are in a marriage where we made vows to follow particular behavioural patterns.
Certainly in the UK, when two women that I know went to solicitors to throw off their husbands it was suggested, yes suggested by the lawyer that their husbands were 'controlling', When in fact these husbands of many years were in fact supporting their families by taking work away. How can they be controlling?
It is so easy to break a marriage, but it seems to be still what people aspire to and yet so many people have little value for it until it is lost.
It is all very sad. But it is not worth being angry about.
I know I will be paying for many years to buy my home again and keep a family home for my daughters. Whilst my ex-wife and gold digger fraud of a boyfriend will take many foreign holidays until her MLC and money has been exhausted.
 
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: kikki on January 29, 2013, 03:53:52 AM
I made the conscious, yet difficult, decision to end my marriage after years of mental abuse and controlling behavior from my husband.

I understand why you are both so angry about this.   
But take another look at what this writer has written - 'years of mental abuse and controlling behaviour'.
Who in their right mind would encourage someone to stay in a marriage when abuse is involved, especially when this poor woman has dedicated 20 years to trying to make it work.

Now, we all know that there is a strong likelihood that this is complete fabrication, but this is exactly the reason that society and 'experts' need to be educated about MLC.  Before this happened to me, it would never have occurred to me in a million years that people would lie about something like this, or that they would be so muddled that their perception is currently very skewed. 
Don't you think that this is the actual problem here?  Medical/psychological ignorance about this disorder?
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Thundarr on January 29, 2013, 04:25:37 AM
Kikki,

No therapist worth their salt takes what a client says at face value.  The ones that do only have an interest in having a regular customer rather than helping.  People don't come to therapy because they LIKE the truth, but because they know it and don't like it.  Therapists like this are no better than bar patrons who will go along with anything and become enablers.  This is what really upset me.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: kikki on January 29, 2013, 04:31:57 AM
Thundarr - I am very happy to hear that.  The world needs more therapists of your calibre T.

Unfortunately that was not my experience.  I dragged my H along to three psychologists and one psychiatrist, and none of them offered any help or support whatsover.  Shrugged their shoulders - said there was nothing they could do if he didn't want help, and offered no information about what a diagnosis might possibly be.

The whole thing was crazy making.  The most hideous time of my life. 
In hindsight - I realise it was extraordinary that I even got him to go along, but couldn't understand why he wouldn't go back.
I wasn't surprised by the article because that was exactly the attitude that I found these therapists all had.  You're right - it is appalling.  But it's not just 'you go girl'.  It's also 'you go boy!' too. 
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Mitzpah on January 29, 2013, 04:50:20 AM

I wasn't surprised by the article because that was exactly the attitude that I found these therapists all had.  You're right - it is appalling.  But it's not just 'you go girl'.  It's also 'you go boy!' too.

Yes, exactly... In fact my SIL (who is very close to my h.) also endorses the exact same philosophy - she told me that I would 'thank my h. for being brave enough to break with the marriage' and that we all deserved to be happy :o My problem was that I was in denial and couldn't see how bad my marriage was...

This kind of 'pop' psychology makes me run a mile - in fact, it is probably the reason I steer away from therapists in general - sorry, Thundarr! As much as I know that generalization is wrong...

It makes me sick.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Freddygone on January 29, 2013, 05:48:36 AM
I am sorry Kikki misread my entry.
This article does NOT make me angry. It is simply what we have come to expect.

My point was simply that this 'therapist' as also in my knowledge of some solicitors, had (the way I read it) suggested that the spouse was 'controlling'. But also was doing some head patting when really a therapist should try to ensure that the person under therapy was really thinking correctly and was making a proper judgement. Therapy should surely be about ensuring the subject has a clear thought process in place before they make decisions.
Generally people who are confused (by MLC) are too open to suggestions of how they should be thinking, which is why I think that a person in MLC is often vulnerable or susceptible to an OM or OW.

Or did I read the article incorrectly? Maybe I did. 
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Freddygone on January 29, 2013, 05:59:05 AM
Actually when I read the article again I see that the good doctor is not questioning anything or suggesting anything other than leaving (as she is proposing) and taking individual therapy.
Maybe a spot of talking to the husband about his behaviour would not have come amiss. Maybe he is having his own MLC?

It is sad that many people now are throwing away good families that could be fixed and in some cases are encouraged to do so.
Some divorcees, who also regret there own divorce with hindsight, are keen to encourage others to leave their spouse, and then later, when things settle a little, defend it as being 'supportive'. Whether this validates their own actions of years before, I do not know.
People seem to like to take sides, even when the couple themselves are trying to be amicable. Don't you find?
I have had most trouble with people interfering and believe this whole MLC process has been extended by other people.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Lost on January 29, 2013, 06:09:01 AM
" Generally people who are confused (by MLC) are too open to suggestions of how they should be thinking,"

Yeah, this is why one would wish there would just be more 'therapists' that would say: "why don't you try to look in a more positive way at what you have: something to eat every day, a decent place to live in, fantastic kids, a H/W that loves you" and try to be thankful for that. Questioning things in midlife and thinking about dreams not lived is normal at that age, just do not take any hasty conclusions and destroy all the good you do have"

Instead, most of these currently presume this M was particularly bad, take the affair as a proof that it was worse than other Ms, and that H and W would be more happy (=the ultimate goal in life, yeah) on their own, and therefore the kids.

Can't believe they do not know the longterm effects of D on kids, seem not to believe in MLC etcetc

The LBS can't clearly say what happens because that is the last person the MLVler wants to listen too; family is often also not listened too as they were identified by therapists as origin of the problem in the first place (and when do we stop to ALWAYS blame the parents on what we do 'wrong', even after 40... extreme cases of abuse excepted, and I am the last to say I have no FOO issues, but stop taking that as excuses, they might trigger things or explain some things, but the rest is DECISIONS we make, our OWN decisions...)

This run away from Ms is just not really adult behaviour, I mean it is what teenagers do to break up: "hey, I found a cuter guy/girl I am more in love with" Did we not all know when we got married that this would not be easy, and that so many couples divorce?
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: wondering on January 29, 2013, 06:21:02 AM
First off, the article gives very little information.  It's basically an Ann Landers, arm chair pop psychology, made for internet, newspaper, short version of a situation.  What if she is telling the truth? Did you consider that maybe she might have been verbally belittled, insulted her whole marriage.  Maybe her H was so controlling that she was not allowing friends or to go anywhere with out him?  You are guessing without any real information. 

Thundarr you are still too fresh in your pain.  You are trying to fit too many situations into the crisis of MLC.   You have posted a few articles on various situations, many not really fitting into MLC.  You still are over analyzing MLC and your wife.  Drop the rope and concentrate on you and your children.

Trust the process which is something you have yet to do.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: xyzcf on January 29, 2013, 06:36:34 AM
Quote
This so-called "doctor" pretty much tells this woman to go have an MLC and gives her the "You go, girl!!"

I haven't read the article but in my own true life story, the therapist that we saw in Hong Kong told my Beloved in front of me that "it was time for him to get in touch with his bad side" basically affirming that leaving his wife of 32 years and picking up an OW was indeed necessary for his growth.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: calamity on January 29, 2013, 06:52:34 AM
This woman is a celebrity psychologist, she advises based on letters... and we care?  This letter could have come from a bunch of bored teenagers.
I think people look for opinions that agree with what they want to do; maybe we are doing the same on this board.  I am pretty sure my h would find a therapist, some old hippy who would say, if it feels good do it, man. 
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Dontgiveup on January 29, 2013, 07:09:23 AM
This so-called "doctor" pretty much tells this woman to go have an MLC

I am not one who thinks someone has an MLC because a "doctor", or anyone else, tells them to go have one.  I think MLC is a deeply individual and personal emotional development phase.

Conscious decision making is not part of MLC—if they make conscientious decisions it’s not MLC. If they choose to not avoid; it’s not MLC.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Thundarr on January 29, 2013, 07:59:27 AM
This so-called "doctor" pretty much tells this woman to go have an MLC

I am not one who thinks someone has an MLC because a "doctor", or anyone else, tells them to go have one.  I think MLC is a deeply individual and personal emotional development phase.

Conscious decision making is not part of MLC—if they make conscientious decisions it’s not MLC. If they choose to not avoid; it’s not MLC.

Correct, my friend.  In my haste I worded this completely wrong.  The intended meaning was that the doctor was encouraging MLC behaviors.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: kikki on January 29, 2013, 08:54:24 AM
I am sorry Kikki misread my entry.
This article does NOT make me angry. It is simply what we have come to expect.

My point was simply that this 'therapist' as also in my knowledge of some solicitors, had (the way I read it) suggested that the spouse was 'controlling'. But also was doing some head patting when really a therapist should try to ensure that the person under therapy was really thinking correctly and was making a proper judgement. Therapy should surely be about ensuring the subject has a clear thought process in place before they make decisions.

I'm sorry for that Freddygone.  On re-reading, I see it didn't make you angry.

My experience, and that of a lot of others with therapy and MLC spouses, is that what they MLCer says IS taken at face value.  They say they had a bad marriage.  They say 'something shifted in their head', they say we were controlling - whatever it is - that thinking does tend to be validated by the therapist.  If there was any inkling that those words came from a person who was not thinking correctly, then there was not one indication of that. 
I sat there with one of the psychologists after she listened to this spiel, and she brightly said 'well, I think you are both fabulous people, but I just want to reiterate that I am not here to influence the outcome of your relationship.  That is for each of you to decide'.  We were in MC at the time.  I thought that was the only way that I would be able to get him to go to a psychologist at first.
I expected that she would be able to read between the lines, and offer help.  But no.  Quite the opposite.

The second psychologist my H insisted he went to by himself and came back announcing that there was nothing wrong with him.

The third, I also went with him to, and when my H said that he was going to be selfish now - she said to him 'yes, I can see that you have always done everything for other people.  Lived your life how other people wanted you to'.
What the?  When I questioned this monster snapped back at me, and I said how out of character this all was. 
My H whined that 'see, we have a bad relationship and my W is very controlling'.  She said, yes I can see that. 
He bolted from the room.  I sat there aghast - and she said nothing to me.  Absolutely nothing.  I too left. 

Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Mac49 on January 29, 2013, 09:42:23 AM
Hi all:

I find it sad that everyone, including the psychologist, missed what I consider the true meaning of the story.

What changed (physically, mentally, emotionally) after 20 years of supposed controlling behavior and mental abuse that led this individual to seek counseling. The story is (IMHO) classic projection and blame, I'm surprised they didn't reference how she deserved to be "happy".

Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their actions?

My guess is the husband started questioning the behavior his wife was engaging in or caught wind of the OP.

Tuesday Two Cents

Mac
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Freddygone on January 29, 2013, 09:53:13 AM
Kikki,
your experience reflects exactly mine with a Relate councillor.
When I tried to explain that my wife was confused and was in fact controlled by OM (this was before our separation and my wife genuinely wished to break with OM June 2009). This Relate Councillor said 'None sense, this is a woman who has raised two children. She is quite capable of breaking it off'.

I was clearly told to shut up. Now over 3 years later, she can not see friends, must turn her mobile off when she is with him.
But I was controlling?
I must admit my wife did try and has tried 6 times. But has been bullied into initiating divorce. (God they are weak).

But back to MLC and Mac49.  ....My experience with MLC is that the last thing they wish to do is have responsibility for their actions or anything else. They revert to childhood where they lie and lose all the morality that they had before. It is as if they need boundaries and to learn all these things again. They are (some) vulnerable to controlling predators.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Ready2Transform on January 29, 2013, 09:55:57 AM
kikki, that is a complete nightmare.  The fact that you're still Standing is such a testament to your character and devotion to who this man is at his core.  I thought I went through headbanging with Hoss' FOO, but that right there takes the cake.

I honestly think MLC is at the least psychiatric, and I think any attempts at counseling amidst them, and this is no offense to counselors, but it's like going to a life coach to treat cancer.  There just needs to be a full spectrum analysis developed that sees the hormonal, biochemical, and emotional picture.  I believe treating any one of them leaves counselors (except in kikki's case - that was just horribly bad counseling) in the dark about the others, only able to treat what is on the surface. 

I think of 2010 and Hoss going to our medical doctor and getting only a small picture (if only he would have gotten hormones tested then!), then going to a psychiatrist for meds who wouldn't discuss his emotional issues, and a talk therapist early on.  He wanted a DIAGNOSIS, but since none of them were in communication with the other, they all came up with something different.  When MLC was in full swing and he then wanted VALIDATION, he went to the FOO, because he knew he would get it there.  MLCers are seeking validation, not a diagnosis.

This woman in the article very well could have been in an abusive, or at the very least unhappy situation not related to MLC where she felt there wasn't an alternative to D, she raised her daughters (this is what I think changed at 20 years; her oldest is 19, youngest 17), and she left.  Most MLCers don't reach out for ideas to start their lives from professionals - they already know, they'll just do whatever they want!  Or she would have already had an OM lined up, as many do.  It is hard to gauge from a few sentences.  But think about if she IS in an abusive M, if a counselor doubted her story, or even asked for the abuser to come in (and many abusers are manipulative charmers who can make people believe whatever they want).  That would be even worse than validating an MLCer - making a victim feel they have no voice. 

Also, my parents D'ed at 20 years, and it was not MLC.  My mother was a serial cheater, and waited until she had a 'sure thing' lined up.  My dad would never have D'ed her.  Not everything is MLC.  Not all women are "eat, pray, love" types by 40, but some may at that point may have moved up in their careers to the point of being able to afford living on their own.  Their children are old enough where custody and/or child support isn't an issue, so it's a cleaner break from the other party.  There can be a lot of other explanations.  Some marriages are just bad.  I find it hard to believe this woman would have sought advice for what to do if she had another person already in the wings.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Freddygone on January 29, 2013, 10:15:39 AM
It seems that we are all of the same opinion that these councillors, unless they understand MLC (which is very few) are actually more damaging than a help.

Certainly I felt defeated after our sessions and my wife said they were a waste of time and money. If you get a good Narcissistic OP you have a real problem and they keep the cycling going.

Until OP is out of the picture I think it's a loser. That's my conclusion now. They validate bad behaviour and encourage lies and they want the family broken.

I don't even recognise my wife.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: hobo1 on January 29, 2013, 10:17:12 AM
When I first read this article, my reaction was the same as Thundarr's.  God darn it, this woman is in MLC!

All the signs point to it, and I could even picture my ex writing such a letter.

I think that MLC is much more common than we know and the general public just isn't aware.

Having read through all the other comments, where you guys say perhaps she is not in MLC....  made me reconsider....  not only this case, but perhaps even my xW.....   My ex could have very well be thinking exactly like the way this woman was...  There really was no OM waiting in the wings....  She also says I'm too controlling, with a bad temper, and was not being appreciative....

She too has said she felt trapped (or stifled) in our relationship....  We also were together 20+ years and married for 14 and she also has raised (and is still raising) our 2 children.  She's texted me more than once saying she is so much happier without me... 

It is in fact what she is feeling....  Stifled, controlled, abused

How do you know when it's MLC then? 

   

   
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Thundarr on January 29, 2013, 10:37:27 AM
When I first read this article, my reaction was the same as Thundarr's.  God darn it, this woman is in MLC!

All the signs point to it, and I could even picture my ex writing such a letter.

I think that MLC is much more common than we know and the general public just isn't aware.

Having read through all the other comments, where you guys say perhaps she is not in MLC....  made me reconsider....  not only this case, but perhaps even my xW.....   My ex could have very well be thinking exactly like the way this woman was...  There really was no OM waiting in the wings....  She also says I'm too controlling, with a bad temper, and was not being appreciative....

She too has said she felt trapped (or stifled) in our relationship....  We also were together 20+ years and married for 14 and she also has raised (and is still raising) our 2 children.  She's texted me more than once saying she is so much happier without me... 

It is in fact what she is feeling....  Stifled, controlled, abused

How do you know when it's MLC then? 

   

 

Excellent question.  If they say and do the same things then what's the difference?  And, if my XW didn't really have one waiting in the wings is she not MLC but rather a woman who reached the age where she decided it was time to move on. Mays she DID plan it for years...
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: trusting on January 29, 2013, 10:49:33 AM
For me, the way I know my husband is in MLC is that he really is truly the opposite of the man I knew for almost 20 years.  He flipped.  I don't that he was pretending to be someone else all those years.  He is truly seeking a new identity and it doesn't right now include any type of recognition of family or the core values he held for 35 years pre-crisis. 

I have heard all those words too - trapped, controlled, blah blah blah.  Script.  One of the things he has said that I have the hardest time buying is when he said I was "controlling." I would probably be hard pressed to find a single other person who knows me in real life who would say that I was a controlling kind of person.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: wondering on January 29, 2013, 10:51:41 AM
Hobo,   How do we know?...With a lot more information then this article gives us.  Yes,  it can sound familiar with what your wife said about you...but you know the facts.  Did you abuse her?  As in did you belittle her, tell her she was stupid, fat, ugly, undesirable, worthless, bad mother, etc?  You get the picture.  It's one thing for a person to rewrite your history (as in what the MLCer does) and it is another one for a person to have actually lived in a emotional abusive relationship. 

My point is there is too little information from this article to say one way or another.

I used to think I saw a lot of MLC situations since this happened to me but upon closer inspection, it was not the case.  In my life, I only see one true case, of my SIL, who was always happy, wonderful, 4 beautiful kids, then overnight, had an affair, with a  soccer coach of one her her children, divorced my BIL with hatred, cleaned out the house and only left him one towel, one fork, one knife, etc...I kid you not.  Then she had a boob job within a short time and she was in her 50's, turned wild, started drinking and would up dead after wrapping herself around a tree with her car all with in a couple of years.  This was a woman that praised herself on being a perfect mother, wife...personally she looked like a stepford wife to me.  But it was a abrupt personality change after 20 years of marriage.  MLC= identity crisis often with a BD on the spouse that never sees it coming. 

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: OldPilot on January 29, 2013, 10:56:43 AM
When I first read this article, my reaction was the same as Thundarr's.  God darn it, this woman is in MLC!

All the signs point to it, and I could even picture my ex writing such a letter.

I think that MLC is much more common than we know and the general public just isn't aware.

Having read through all the other comments, where you guys say perhaps she is not in MLC....  made me reconsider....  not only this case, but perhaps even my xW.....   My ex could have very well be thinking exactly like the way this woman was...  There really was no OM waiting in the wings....  She also says I'm too controlling, with a bad temper, and was not being appreciative....

She too has said she felt trapped (or stifled) in our relationship....  We also were together 20+ years and married for 14 and she also has raised (and is still raising) our 2 children.  She's texted me more than once saying she is so much happier without me... 

It is in fact what she is feeling....  Stifled, controlled, abused

How do you know when it's MLC then? 
Excellent question.  If they say and do the same things then what's the difference?  And, if my XW didn't really have one waiting in the wings is she not MLC but rather a woman who reached the age where she decided it was time to move on. Mays she DID plan it for years...
I would say if what she says stings then that is something you need to work on, or else you will be divorced again.
I am sure she was not without faults either.

I think we are trying to decide between a WAS and an MLC spouse and there is not really that much to decide the difference.
It is like arguing whether Tiger Woods  is MLC or a serial adulterer.
Either way you dont really do anything differently.

We all know that we have faults. Take the Gift of TIME and work on them!
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: trusting on January 29, 2013, 10:58:30 AM
Quote
But it was a abrupt personality change after 20 years of marriage.  MLC= identity crisis often with a BD on the spouse that never sees it coming.

I agree 100%.  I think if there were issues we would have heard about them long before BD.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Ready2Transform on January 29, 2013, 10:59:59 AM
wondering, I'm so sorry about your sister.  :(  MLC or not, that is a horrible tragedy.

Hoss had a lot of major high energy factors that scream MLC (the only time I waiver is in thinking it's more straight up Bipolar).  The 180 flip is the biggest and was the most confusing part.  I think T, you have again and again listed things that prove how out there your xW is - things she has said to the kids, events that others have seen and told you she is not herself, etc.  As OP said, our roles don't change, MLC or not - detach and grow.  That is all we can do, and it's all we need to.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: kikki on January 29, 2013, 11:44:05 AM
Freddygone - I'm sorry you too had a similar experience with a counsellor.  We have a thread on here somewhere which discussed this a while back.  I think a lot of us have had this awful experience.

How do we know it's MLC?  Because of the 180 personality change. 

That gets me back to my original point.  How does a therapist know about this 180 degree personality change?  They don't.  They take the words at face value and generally validate them. 
There is NO support or answers for the spouse and children, and it is terrifying. (especially when the MLCer has such a massive 'melt down' as my H did).  He knew he wasn't right, or he would never have gone in the first place. But once there he pulled on that mask and appeared 'normal'.

That is what I think needs to change - this ignorance about MLC and its effects on both the person suffering it, and the family.

Quote
I honestly think MLC is at the least psychiatric, and I think any attempts at counseling amidst them, and this is no offense to counselors, but it's like going to a life coach to treat cancer.  There just needs to be a full spectrum analysis developed that sees the hormonal, biochemical, and emotional picture.  I believe treating any one of them leaves counselors (except in kikki's case - that was just horribly bad counseling) in the dark about the others, only able to treat what is on the surface. 
Thanks Ready.  It was a complete nightmare. 
I agree with your thoughts 100%.  If I knew of someone in my scenario - I would expect counsellors, doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists all to be speaking the same 'language'.  What changed here?  Why did it change?  Let's investigate.
My H would actually have been open to it in the beginning if we had encountered the right support. 

After these experiences with the psychologists, I too managed to encourage my H to a GP who did a basic blood screen and ECG because he thought he was having a heart attack (high anxiety was changing his heart rhythm).  This GP was well meaning, but once again was completely uninformed about this time of life.

With the right support and knowledge, my H still may have chosen not to complete the recommendations and chosen to continue to bolt - we will never know that, but at least the boys and I would have had some sort of support instead of feeling completely alone and floundering around while we watched this clinger self destruct in front of our eyes.

I really hope this is what changes in the future, and if so, this sort of attitude that you read of in this article (from the Dr) may then be less common.  Here's hoping.
 
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: Anjae on January 29, 2013, 11:59:58 AM
Thundarr, the article gives little info. There people who really stay in abusive and controlling marriages for many years and, one day, they have enough and want out.
Just because someone is on the age range of MLC and wants out of a marriage they say its bad, does not mean they are having a MLC and that what they say is not true.

I do not see the therapist saying to the woman to go and lead a wild life, just to get therapy and take care of herself.
MLC involves the 180 personality change, the article does not provide any info that matter. It may be MLC but it also may be someone who really had an abusive marriage.

Just because we have spouses in MLC who say and do what they do, we cannot dismiss those who really have abusive marriages. And we have to accept that some husbands/wives really are abusive and controlling.
Title: Re: Absolutely disgusting and an example of why MLC is so common!!
Post by: kikki on January 29, 2013, 12:12:20 PM
Oh yes - back to the article  :), agree that there is too little information and even if the therapist was aware of MLC and has in the back of her mind that this might be a possibility, it also may be the case that it is true.
And I don't think anyone is going to encourage anyone to stay in an abusive relationship.  They would offer support to get out. 

If it's MLC - that then becomes an enormous problem for the family.
If it's not, then probably it is for the best.  It may even provide the motivation for her H to change his behaviours.  Maybe that is what should be encouraged.  Safety for her, and therapy for him. 
Title: MLC Links from Yahoo - Some may find helpful; some not.
Post by: Thundarr on February 24, 2013, 05:22:28 PM
http://voices.yahoo.com/male-midlife-crisis-infidelity-divorce-case-study-5186023.html?cat=5

Credit to Rover on this one.  An MLC overview and several links on the side.  It focuses on male MLCers and looks at it from somewhat of a mainstream perspective.  Pretty interesting stuff, but really not a whole lot of new information even though it is presented differently.
Title: Re: MLC Links from Yahoo - Some may find helpful; some not.
Post by: Thundarr on February 24, 2013, 09:18:44 PM
Mods - I put the wrong icon on this one.  Would someone kindly change it to a Discussion icon?  Thanks!
Title: Re: MLC Links from Yahoo - Some may find helpful; some not.
Post by: Ready2Transform on February 24, 2013, 09:25:14 PM
Done!  And thank you for posting this.  It's very encouraging to see it at a major news hub, and to see the reference that there are some in the field that want this to be a recognized disorder!
Title: Re: MLC Links from Yahoo - Some may find helpful; some not.
Post by: xyzcf on February 24, 2013, 09:34:44 PM
I'm always happy to read other authors who have the same idea of mid life crisis. It reaffirms it to me that this is a real entity.
Title: Re: MLC Links from Yahoo - Some may find helpful; some not.
Post by: Anjae on February 24, 2013, 09:45:28 PM
Great to have this info on a mainsteam site with so much good info, rather than the rubish many times comes up in articles connected with MLC.

Very much liked the tone, and language of the article.  loved this "he first casualty is their sense of reason; the next is often their family." so true, their reason goes down the drain.
Title: Re: MLC Links from Yahoo - Some may find helpful; some not.
Post by: Thundarr on February 24, 2013, 10:50:29 PM
I liked the article that talked about the lasting memories even several years AFTER they had remarried.  It really does validate us in many ways.
Title: Re: MLC Links from Yahoo - Some may find helpful; some not.
Post by: Anjae on February 25, 2013, 05:13:20 PM
I liked the article that talked about the lasting memories even several years AFTER they had remarried.  It really does validate us in many ways.

I guess that is important to you, and most here. It does validate us but, for me, it is a bit: well, so what? They keep thinking about us? Would prefer they would not think about us and have not caused the mess they have.

But that is just me, the reluctant LBS, of course... ::) ::) ::)
Title: Positive Article
Post by: justwatching on March 02, 2013, 08:33:34 AM
I ran into this article and thought it was spot on.  The statistics posted "Statistics say that 80% of those who experience a turbulent transition during midlife will remain in the marriage and they themselves will make positive changes that strengthens the marriage. So, odds are in your favor but there is still the possibility you will end up in divorce court."  I thought the marriage retention percentage was extraordinarily high, but it could also include MLCers who take ownership of their turbulent transition and don't destroy the house. 

http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/MidlifeCrisis/qt/Taking-Control-During-Your-Spouses-Midlife-Crisis-Part-I.htm

Personally, major transitions in my sitch with the wife accepting the job far away and the two kids will  both be away to college with the second graduating HS this year.  Everyone leaves in June.  It's been a long time, but at least I got the kids to adulthood, though their was some minor damage.  I hope it makes them both strong adults.  For me, there are a few recent down periods, but I have trained myself to get past them rather quickly.  My MLC spouse was rather introspective up until December, so I thought she might be coming close to what was referred as liminity(sp), by RCR's article, but then she went into full replay again, and I've even seen the monster a few times. 

My stance has changed as now I have reached a point where I really don't have any feelings for her and recall the good points of our marriage in shadows.  I guess this is the unfortunate side of detachment.  The lies and victim mentality remain and I was amazed with a conversation she had with one of my relatives.  She stated a number of things including she was paying for my older sons college.  I overheard and pointed out that it was from a joint account from what was really my account.  I only asked her to make the payment when I was working out of town for a couple of months.  I re-framed her points on a few issues and she turned into a nutcase in front of my relative.  It was as bad as the BD a little over four years ago.  What I thought was her getting better was merely her little tape recorder continuing to  re-create history, but she had learned to keep it quiet.  Her profession involves communication and she is a professional and extremely convincing.  I've seen her expertise do a lot of good, but I've now seen the damage it can cause. 

Good luck to all and I can say that time does heal and get you through the hurtful phase.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: Thundarr on March 02, 2013, 10:05:32 AM
80% huh.  Nice to know I'm part of the Screwed 20%.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: OldPilot on March 02, 2013, 10:51:56 AM
80% huh.  Nice to know I'm part of the Screwed 20%.
You are not alone.

I wonder if Cathy Meyer the author of this got RCR to write this
Quote
Some Refer to it as a Roller Coaster Ride:

But I guess it all just comes from DB

http://divorcesupport.about.com/bio/Cathy-Meyer-24136.htm
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: Anjae on March 02, 2013, 10:58:13 AM
For me, "turbulent transition during midlife" is just that, a transition that become turbulent. it is not a MLC. MLC needs the crisis extra factor. Maybe for the writer they are the same thing but for me they are not.

It also says that 80% of those who experience the turbulent transition remain in the marriage. But what does it mean? Did they reallye remained in the marriage for all the time? Was there OW/OM and they never divorce, ending up with the spouse? 

Is the % higher or lower for MLC than for turbulent MLT? I don't know.

But I know you have every chace of have your wife back, Thundarr. Unless, of course, you don't want her back when time comes.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: trusting on March 02, 2013, 11:06:13 AM
Quote
For me, "turbulent transition during midlife" is just that, a transition that become turbulent. it is not a MLC. MLC needs the crisis extra factor. Maybe for the writer they are the same thing but for me they are not.

That was what I was thinking when I read it.  There is a difference between a "turbulent" MLT and a crisis.  The article didn't necessarily say (that I can recall) that the spouse moved out of the home, had an affair, etc. which would be a crisis rather than something milder. 

Thundarr, I don't think you have any less of a chance at reconciliation than the rest of us, even if the divorce went through, at least as far as your wife is concerned. 
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: Ready2Transform on March 02, 2013, 11:16:20 AM
Not a bad article, but indeed, not full blown MLC.  Infidelity and extreme financial changes make MLC something more than what you need to "distract yourself" from.  I like this article, but it does make too light of the ramifications of MLC on a household and a life.  And the reality is, we need to deal with reality itself and take our spouses at face value:  they've left.  RCR's writings on acceptance and living as if they are no longer in the marriage, which is current reality for most of us, do far more for healing the pain and helping us manage the financial and emotional burdens we're left with.  It's not a show on TV we don't want to watch, so we go outside until it's over.  For all of us, there are aspects of this that denote permanent changes, reconciliation or not.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: xyzcf on March 02, 2013, 12:28:24 PM
For all you doubting Thomas men.....Calamity posted this book on someone's thread...read it...sound familiar? (Women can read it too)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MRfLUBKBkSYJ:forum.makingherhappy.com/attachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D56%26d%3D1276041464+&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj0DRtxK1wqcERQ40HCkJShlUkowHR3FHo37sNtI2ETQNXIuI0dZv84k9dAHi7Ai8Enq10_2WQKjez_sO4YUsGXYYRmfyo5I1VXoJ9HDTi22KbCh6vXzApTrAXbP_0eTTGZOqbx&sig=AHIEtbQYeZCre4jSJC6paMcoRuo98qbOzQ
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: Slow Fade on March 02, 2013, 12:30:02 PM
Quote
For all of us, there are aspects of this that denote permanent changes, reconciliation or not.

I agree R2T. I know my marriage as I knew it is dead. I also know that there is still a foundation to rebuild on if that becomes a possibility. I also know that I've been changed in a profound way and that its not necessarily a bad thing. Growth usually comes from adversity, not prosperity. I learned that when my Dad died.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: Ready2Transform on March 02, 2013, 12:37:46 PM
Quote
Growth usually comes from adversity, not prosperity.

This is an amazing insight.  Thank you for this!  Another wall plaque in the making.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: toughtimes on March 02, 2013, 12:46:19 PM
Quote
Growth usually comes from adversity, not prosperity.

This is an amazing insight.  Thank you for this!  Another wall plaque in the making.

Yes yes I agree xxx
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: OldPilot on March 02, 2013, 01:05:57 PM
For all you doubting Thomas men.....Calamity posted this book on someone's thread...read it...sound familiar? (Women can read it too)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MRfLUBKBkSYJ:forum.makingherhappy.com/attachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D56%26d%3D1276041464+&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj0DRtxK1wqcERQ40HCkJShlUkowHR3FHo37sNtI2ETQNXIuI0dZv84k9dAHi7Ai8Enq10_2WQKjez_sO4YUsGXYYRmfyo5I1VXoJ9HDTi22KbCh6vXzApTrAXbP_0eTTGZOqbx&sig=AHIEtbQYeZCre4jSJC6paMcoRuo98qbOzQ
Yes I know this author. BYSTANDER, she used to post on Path Partners before they shut their doors.

She knew her stuff.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: Thundarr on March 02, 2013, 01:32:09 PM
X, I read that book very early on after BD when Hobo/TB sent it to me.  I had D20 read it as well and I think it helped both of us to grasp what was happening without going insane.  I still have a copy close to my desk here at home.  It does a great job of telling you what to expect and why, but I didn't glean much hope from it honestly.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: kikki on March 02, 2013, 01:48:11 PM
Quote
For all you doubting Thomas men.....Calamity posted this book on someone's thread...read it...sound familiar? (Women can read it too)

That is an excellent summary.  Wonder if she did a male MLC version?
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: xyzcf on March 02, 2013, 02:28:07 PM
From Thundaar

Quote
It does a great job of telling you what to expect and why, but I didn't glean much hope from it honestly.

For me, that here is yet another confirmation that mlc exists is important. What is it that you are hoping for Thundaar? There are no promises or guarantees or statistical probabilities that will prove that our individual spouses will come home....but they sure might.

I know, I still struggle because so long all my hope was tied up in his returning to our marriage. That is slowly changing to hope for me, that I will find peace, that I will not feel so drained by this anymore. But it is much further along for me..I do not understand the fatigue at this point and wish there was some way to regain the energy that I once had....I cannot base my "health" on his coming home or not, but I do feel that this has taken a toil on me physically and I blame myself for that because of my holding on too tightly to just one possibility. I envy others here who seem so much more healed than I..I do hope it gets better some day.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: OldPilot on March 02, 2013, 02:51:04 PM
Quote
For all you doubting Thomas men.....Calamity posted this book on someone's thread...read it...sound familiar? (Women can read it too)

That is an excellent summary.  Wonder if she did a male MLC version?
No her brother's wife was having an MLC, he was divorced, and she was trying to help him through the path partners site.
She then wrote this manual.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: kikki on March 02, 2013, 03:35:39 PM
Thanks OP.  What an amazing sister she is. 
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: Thundarr on March 02, 2013, 03:50:11 PM
Do you know if they ever reconciled, OP?
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: OldPilot on March 02, 2013, 04:19:25 PM
Do you know if they ever reconciled, OP?
Sorry I dont know but the Path Partners site was not about standing.
It was pretty hard core, with some very angry men posting there.
After the site blew up I lost track of most of the people there except the ones that post here.
Like Honour, Mac49, Rookie, DOC(had another name I think, Pexio
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: kikki on March 02, 2013, 04:25:43 PM
Is this the same site OP?

http://pathpartners.com/

Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: OldPilot on March 02, 2013, 04:45:35 PM
Is this the same site OP?

http://pathpartners.com/
Yes and no, same owner, but she blew up the forum.
I think she is still in her MLC.
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: kikki on March 02, 2013, 04:47:14 PM
Is this the same site OP?

http://pathpartners.com/
Yes and no, same owner, but she blew up the forum.
I think she is still in her MLC.

Ah, interesting. 
Title: Re: Positive Article
Post by: OldPilot on March 02, 2013, 04:53:09 PM
Is this the same site OP?

http://pathpartners.com/
Yes and no, same owner, but she blew up the forum.
I think she is still in her MLC.

Ah, interesting.
Yea she thinks she is going to get rich from MLC
http://pathpartners.com/coaching compare that to coaching here.
Title: Article ... WE CAN DO BETTER
Post by: Musica on March 12, 2013, 07:16:56 AM
Hello all ... I found this article recently which I kept to read again ... as so many of my fellow LBS are going through legal processes, and I very well may be myself in the future, I decided to post it on my thread which is on the subscriber side. Some kind person suggested I post it here ... I do not know who wrote the original article, and I know I edited it slightly too, but if anyone knows the original author, please post, so they can take the credit for the article.

It kind of sums up how I feel, although I know that those in the MLC fog would not take any notice at all sadly.

Here it is ....

My way of saying "We can do better". I refuse to tell our children that we just did the best we could, the best anyone could do or the best that can be done.

WE CAN DO BETTER.

A broken family is NOT the best we can do.

If you can look your sons or daughters in the eye and honestly say that you did everything you could to save your marriage and their family, only then it is okay to let go.
Can you?

This is incomprehensibly tragic because it celebrates a completely preventable family catastrophe: divorce forced by one spouse against the wishes of the other. Divorce under these circumstances, especially when the other has been working incredibly hard for years to make things right, is an act of state sanctioned emotional domestic violence. If you are leaving your marriage under these circumstances, despite your spouse's efforts, you are committing an extraordinarily cruel act, with your children watching up close.

This is also tragic because it has no doubt encouraged many people to leave their marriages when they could have saved them. I am not talking about abusive marriages, but ones that are ok -- and with children! --  where he/she didn't feel the passion or where they argued.  I know from personal experience how painful that can be, but love is a verb, and he/she needed to work harder, or if not harder, differently. They needed to work on themselves as individuals and on their ability to relate in marriage.

If he (or she) had put all the effort into the marriage that they put into the divorce, he, she and their children would ALL be better off today. Unfortunately, the children, like so many millions of children every year, learned by example that members of their most critical emotional support structure can be replaced, sort of like a worn out car part. This damages their ability to trust in a committed relationship, and means they'll always be vigilantly checking to see if their spouse is looking for the exit. That vigilance will, in turn, damage their ability to develop intimacy. I wonder what you say to your future son-in-law when one of the girls decides she has tried really hard, but finds herself just unhappy, just like Dad, (or Mum) and, calling on the powerful example in the past, decides to call it quits, leaving the children behind?

Once a couple has children, their marriage becomes a healing journey and a karmic test. Couples which fail to heal and fail the test are simply passing the buck to their children and their grandchildren. There is very little controversy about this.

Divorce is a non-stop, broad-based, never-ending, lifelong, multi-generational emotional, mental-health and financial nightmare. Even years after separation and divorce and the damage just keeps piling up. Don't get me wrong - everyone's very polite, but here's one example: several couples we know are taking their children to Europe this summer. We've spent our money on a second residence that we don't need, so we're staying home. Five people don't get to go to Europe because one person decided to trample the rights of the other four instead of looking hard at their own role in the marriage dysfunction.

Let's be very clear - parents' attacks on each other are direct attacks on their children. Saying "Dad loves you but I don’t love Mum any more" (or vice versa) is platitudinous bunk, equivalent to saying to your children, "One of your two key role models is so completely and irreparably inadequate that s/he is no longer deserving of my (your other key role model) respect and commitment, so bad that all future happy family times for the rest of your life are hereby cancelled, and so bad that you will never again be able to enjoy the quiet comfort and warmth of an intact biological family." This message forces children to decide if a) it's true OR b) that the accuser is crazy. Since neither choice is acceptable, the child has a permanent internal conflict that she cannot resolve. Further, since the child is the son/daughter of that parent they think they're made of the same stuff as he/she is, and therefore also possibly so inadequate that their spouse will probably do the same to them someday. This irresolvable conflict creates pervasive, destructive toxic shame. This boomerangs back around on the attacker through the damage it does to their children. Thus, the accuser better be sure the marital problems go way, way beyond unhappiness or boredom. There is so much good know-how out there; find it, and give your children the emotional refuge of knowing that people within families never, ever, ever give up on each other.

What do you think happens to the emotional systems of teenaged girls (or boys) when they see their dad leaving the house to go spend the night with his girlfriend or even see their dad marry another woman years later?  It's irrelevant whether the parents are divorced or married. The emotional damage is the same.

What do you think happens to the emotional systems of teenaged girls when they realize that their father would trample anyone to get what he wants or make himself "happy" and thinks that's demonstrating responsibility? What happens to the emotional system of the wife he felt free to leave, when she realizes that she has to co-parent for the rest of her life with someone who would stop at nothing to get what he perceives as rightly his? That kind of person abuses the legacy of no-fault divorce, put in place to ensure that abused women were protected from their husbands.

Family court judges: When couples, especially those with one or more children, appear before you seeking divorce, send them home with this homework. "Husband - ask your wife what you could do to help her be happier, then ask yourself what you could do to take responsibility for your own happiness. Wife - ask your husband what you could do to help him be happier, then ask yourself what you could do to take responsibility for your own happiness." Insist that they report back to you, in detail, about how hard they worked at the homework and what exactly each one asked of the other and of themselves. Just imagine - BOTH members of the couple asking what they could do to make the other happy, while simultaneously working to make themselves happy. Don't you think the divorce rate in your court would drop, a lot, saving a lot of children a lot of needless wounding? You could also ask EACH member of the couple: "What do you think you're supposed to learn from this marriage?" and "What wounds from your childhood do you think make you reactive to the things about your spouse that you wish they would change?" I know you're not therapists, but you ARE the last line of defense for children. How about this as another ritual you could require of divorcing couples: ... Maybe if couples knew they were going to have to pound their wedding rings with a hammer in a ceremony attended by their children, they would, again, be motivated to work harder.

YOU CAN DO BETTER.

Title: Re: Article ... WE CAN DO BETTER
Post by: Wed2Him?Whatever. on March 12, 2013, 08:14:27 AM
Once a couple has children, their marriage becomes more than an enjoyable exchange of services.
My childfree marriage wasn't anything more than an enjoyable exchange of services?  With regards to that description, author of article

COULD HAVE DONE BETTER.
Title: Re: Article ... WE CAN DO BETTER
Post by: Musica on March 12, 2013, 08:20:26 AM
Hi Wed ... I totally agree with you there ... That's one edit I missed, thanks for pointing it out. That is a disrespectful comment to all who are married without children , I agree with you. The article is aimed at families with children, but should not disrespect families who do not have children. I've changed it! So whoever wrote it ... take note!
Sorry. X
Title: Re: Article ... WE CAN DO BETTER
Post by: OldPilot on March 12, 2013, 08:28:33 AM
It kind of sums up how I feel, although I know that those in the MLC fog would not take any notice at all sadly.
Nice article and I do agree with you and article.
My MLC'er would have taken this and twisted it all up to suit her own needs.

The divorce reform organization here in the US that RCR and I support is

http://divorcereform.us/
Title: Re: Article ... WE CAN DO BETTER
Post by: TrustingMyHP on March 12, 2013, 09:29:43 AM
Musica,

Wow.  That's really strong.  I love it.

Especially the paragraph that begins with "Let's be very clear. . ."  I've never seen a "deconstruction" of the whole, "I love you but I can no longer live with your mother" c**p so well described.

I'm never tempted to send my MLCer stuff but this is so good it seriously tempts me.  Not that it would help, of course, but I'm still tempted!

Thanks for posting this.

TMHP
Title: Re: Article ... WE CAN DO BETTER
Post by: Trustandlove on March 12, 2013, 10:05:20 AM
I was contemplating sending it to the Marriage Foundation; I have no idea what I'd couch it as, though....  it's the kind of thing that would be great if they had a powerful voice. 

Regarding sending it to MLCers; they would probably read the first line (have you done everything possible....?), answer yes, and then say that it's OK to go.  So no, I won't be sending it to my MLCer....
Title: Re: Article ... WE CAN DO BETTER
Post by: toughtimes on March 12, 2013, 11:45:00 AM
This is powerful stuff Musica, thank you. I have copied and pasted it. I am beginning mediation with my H next Monday, maybe I can quote a little of this.

I was thinking in the car on the way home tonight that I want to say I have not given up on this marriage, on him, on me or on our family. I will always dream of reconciliation and hope that it may happen one day. I will not give up on the love and connection that we had, that led us to make two incredible children and to pledge to stay true to each other for the rest of our lives. Despite all the problems we have had bit individually and as a couple we DID get married, we DID have two children, we DID create 14 years of memories and togetherness.

I don't know if I will say any of this at mediation but I will study this article and try and think of it when I go in....that's if I don't sit there stunned to silence like a rabbit in head lights!

Thanks xxx
Title: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Sands on April 18, 2013, 10:04:22 PM
Has anyone visited this blog yet?

http://www.greatfamilyhome.com

Written by Elle Zober whose husband left her for a 22 yr old.

Good read, just thought I would share.

Disregard if I am behind the times.

Edit - Added link
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: HurtSoul on April 18, 2013, 10:11:04 PM
No not yet sorry
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Sands on April 18, 2013, 10:19:58 PM
HurtSoul, I just now started to read it myself. Very funny how she tells her story.

I am enjoying it so far, I hope you do too.
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: HurtSoul on April 18, 2013, 10:49:42 PM
Too funny
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Sands on April 21, 2013, 03:12:52 PM
I just had to post this and share. It's a good read so far.

(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4698708088455626&pid=1.7&w=208&h=122&c=7&rs=1)

My observation is this:  If someone steals my car.... they go to jail.
If you steal my husband .... nothing happens.  Except for a bunch of people believing that the wife a)was always a b*tch anyway, b) got fat and drinks too much malt liquor (a personal favorite) or c) wasn't his "soul mate" and now he's found it and should be entitled to it. 

Frankly.... I would rather have my car stolen.  Period.  (It's a Mazda 5, which I love, but the pain job is crap and it chips and scratches just by looking at it....) lol

Which brings me to my next thought...... there is much debate in our nation about Same Sex Marriage and whether or not "allowing" it degrades the state of the traditional male/female marriage.    I won't say which side the fence my opinions fall... but I will politely point out that two gay men in a committed relationship didn't have any impact on my marriage at all. 

I sometimes feel like we only "care" about the actual "insitution" of marriage, or the state of it - in a court room, where laws are made.

OUTSIDE of a courtroom - we quickly become totally uninterested in the "value" of the institution of marraige and instead become VERY concerned with the PEOPLE involved... right?  My husband leaves for a 22 year old and *many* people are quick to give him so-called 'valid' reasons for his behavior... (see above) - WITHOUT taking into account that the 22 year old *might not* be the smokin' hot co-ed they pictured in their minds.... AND without entertaining the idea that El Capitan *might not* have been his once younger, trimmer, full-head of hairer-self.  OR... that THE RIGHT THING to do was answer me the 8 billion times I asked... "is something wrong?  ..... can I help you....?  You seem distant - should I be worried.....?"  and say, 'Yes, I'm feeling ________ about our marriage and the quality of our relantionship and we should do __________ about it.".

Because... I was right - El Capitan *WAS* disant - because frankly it's hard to be close with a 22 year old sandwiched into your marriage....

Instead, I got, "No way.... there's nothing wrong, work's just hard and I'm tired.... I  love you.".  Famous last words.. lol

Now, I don't know what the answer is .... I'm not saying we should start sewing Scarlet letters on people (however I have a few on hand if that's what we all decide! lolol)  ... but it seems like it's easier to EXCUSE the emotional betrayal of an affair than it is to accept two chicks can be in love?  What's up with that.....?

Again... i'm really *not* trying to get polical - but... where's the TRUE protection for my marriage either under the actual law or the social law?  Gone are the days when the public shame would be SO GREAT that it would STOP people from doing it in the first place... so, really - there's nothing to stop people.  *MOST* states are 'no fault' divorce states ... so - having an affair hasn't really had ANY impact on El Capitan OR Yoga Girl.... they have gone on with their happy little life together ......

I think that THAT is the real reason alot of women "get crazy" - because they are left to deal with everything - house, kids, life, friends, money, medical insurance, cobras, retirement... blah blah blah..... while they watch their spouse trip the light fantastic with another woman.... let's be honest - that'll bring out the bat sh*t crazy in anyone..... right? lololol
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: kikki on April 21, 2013, 04:24:23 PM
Right!

Where is my like button?
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: HurtSoul on April 21, 2013, 04:55:50 PM
Yep
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: calamity on April 21, 2013, 09:24:24 PM
Sands, I never agree with every single word in a post.  Yours is the exception.  Love it.

Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: LisaLives on April 22, 2013, 09:14:59 AM
Sands, I am an oldie around here and I seldom log on, I lurk periodically.  But I am so glad I got on to read your post today.  I am laughing so hard "trip the light fantastic" is an oldie but a goodie.  A sense of humor will take you a long way on this journey.  Wishing you the best and thanking you for an awesome post.  Love and light, ll
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: HurtSoul on April 22, 2013, 09:28:43 AM
Amen sister!
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Ready2Transform on April 22, 2013, 09:37:15 AM
*thumbs up*
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Wed2Him?Whatever. on April 22, 2013, 11:19:31 AM
Right!

Where is my like button?

(http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/w2h4e/facebook_like_button_big_zps147ac153.jpg) (http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/w2h4e/media/facebook_like_button_big_zps147ac153.jpg.html)

Here's one from the Husband Hustling site, along the same vein:

(http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/w2h4e/20130414-180955_zps0f63af94.jpg) (http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/w2h4e/media/20130414-180955_zps0f63af94.jpg.html)
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: kikki on April 22, 2013, 01:38:07 PM
Thanks for the like button Wed  :)
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Sands on April 22, 2013, 01:44:01 PM
 ;D love the last pic.  :o Although very true for me too. Glad my kids are older.

Anywho I wish I could take credit for what I had posted to share here.

Truth is that I was told about this blog from a friend.

Its brilliantly written by a woman who walks in the same path we all are on..

Her sense of humor is refreshing.  You can visit her blog and continue reading her story.

Xoxo
Title: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Battlefield on April 26, 2013, 07:06:55 AM
I downloaded these  Yesterday and I found them to b helpful and thought I would share! Hope they will help all of you too
I have paid for the E-books and read them a couple of times and loved them I can't attach them here I tried if you send me
a message I would B Happy to send you the E books. I think they r a must Read.
My H is home and OW is Long gone but I still found Who will You become Helpful because it isnt just about the midst of the affair.
It's about the children the spouse and Them. It was so helpful!
I cried!!!! Here is a link to her Website so you can check out the books for yourself, if you would like to purchase them or i would b happy
to send them to You!
http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/Mini-Books.html

WHO WILL YOU BECOME?
A Reality check and hope for those who are tempted
or Fallen
By Linda J. MacDonald, M.S., LMFT

How to Help Your
Spouse Heal from
Your Affair:
A compact manual for the unfaithful
Linda J. MacDonald, M.S., LMFT
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Battlefield on April 26, 2013, 07:27:50 AM
All I have to say is it's so sad, When I was reading What will you become. Like I said H is home now and OW is long gone. In the beginning H said majority of the things in the book especially about the Kids. That is what broke my heart. BC now we r def dealing with the aftermath and my kids r 21 and 16. My 21 yr old is doing what is in that book. She is taking everything out on me! She has been getting into alot of trouble with the law. Which before this she has never in her life even raised her voice or disrespected me or anybody in her life. She is just doing so many things, she has had so many boyfriends now. She is on a destructive path and all I can do is Pray and leave her in Gods hands. My H still isnt in the place to help. He doesn't yet see or emotionally or physically ready to help or deal with it. So she is just living it up and thinking it's great bc "Daddy" will back her up. I don't say anything. It's so sad!!!!
If they could only see what devestation they will cause to their children my daughters life is now forever changed bc of his actions and yes I mean forever!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Rollercoasterider on April 26, 2013, 08:32:18 AM
Sharing physical books is acceptable.
But it is inappropriate and usually against the copyright to share electronic versions. If the author gives permission to pass copies along for free, that is fine, but that is not typically the case. People can go to the author's website or purchase her books from Amazon if they wish to read them--or check out a copy from the library.
Please do not offer to send copies of e-books to people, that is stealing money directly from the author.
http://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Spouse-Heal-Affair/dp/145055332X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366990291&sr=8-1&keywords=Linda+J.+MacDonald (http://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Spouse-Heal-Affair/dp/145055332X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366990291&sr=8-1&keywords=Linda+J.+MacDonald)
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Battlefield on April 26, 2013, 08:54:44 AM
I downloaded these  Yesterday and I found them to b helpful and thought I would share! Hope they will help all of you too
My H is home and OW is Long gone but I still found Who will You become Helpful because it isnt just about the midst of the affair.
It's about the children the spouse and Them. It was so helpful!
I cried!!!! Here is a link to her Website so you can check out the books for yourself, if you would like to purchase them
http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/Mini-Books.html

WHO WILL YOU BECOME?
A Reality check and hope for those who are tempted
or Fallen
By Linda J. MacDonald, M.S., LMFT

How to Help Your
Spouse Heal from
Your Affair:
A compact manual for the unfaithful
Linda J. MacDonald, M.S., LMFT
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Battlefield on April 26, 2013, 08:57:06 AM
I didn't know and I modified the post!
I would never do that intentionally.  I just wanted to
Help anybody I could in the same situation I am in!
Thanks so much.
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: kikki on April 26, 2013, 02:43:07 PM
Thanks Smitty for sharing that link.

This is the most enormous concern for those of us with children - the out of character changes in the MLC parent - and the blindness to the destruction (as RCR describes it in the articles).

My H has even had moments of clarity where he has said to me he worries about what this is all doing to his children - But three years post BD he is still strongly addicted to his new life with the OW, although he looks a wreck and looks miserable most of the time.

I hope your H can see the impact on your children soon too.  A young woman with lots of partners is usually looking for attention because it's not coming from her Father. 
Even though your H is home - it is a sad confirmation that these crises just take so very long for them to work through.
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: crazyjourney on April 26, 2013, 04:09:48 PM
I sit here with tears in my eyes reading this as it is my worst fear that mlc will effect my sons in a negative way, they were 20 and 22 when this started although the first time that lasted only a few weeks was 5 years previously.

My h has brought shame to my door and that of his sons how will I ever forgive that, to be honest for myself I will survive but my sons are more precious than life itself, I hate hate hate mlc.

I wish my h would just realize what an idiot he is being.

Sorry rant over.

x
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Battlefield on April 26, 2013, 07:58:32 PM
Crazy&kikki,
I know it's so hard when our children are affected the way they are.
When this all first happened I took both my kids to a counselor.
She told me that my 16 yr old(then 14) and 21 (then 18). She told me that
My 16 yr old needed to b in counseling by my 21yr old was fine and didn't need
Further counseling.
Well I didn't agree with her at all. I went with getting into the word and relying on The Lord
My 16yr old followed in that route. She is faithful to the word and loves The Lord!!
I tried everything with my 21yr old other counselor church nothing, she is angry hurt ECt. 
I have let her to The Lord. Prayer.
I know she will b fine as well as H.
It's just so sad it had to get to this point.
She had such a bright future.
She was going to teach she lived working with autistic children
She has a gift. She can never do that now.
It's heartbreaking.
H has made comments to his mom that he knows what has wouldnt of happened if it wasn't for him.
But he made her promise never to tell me.
He said I was right about everything. OW, him being in MLC.  BUT I CAN NEVER KNOW!
He under no way shape or form wants me to know that I was right about any of it!!

I wish I could give this to my H. But I'm not sure he would even b ready to receive it. And OW is gone. He is still so angry I think he would think I was being manipulative or accusing. Who knows. What they think.
I really wish I could knowing he would read it from start to finish and really read it and think.

It made me think. And just made me hurt.
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Ready2Transform on April 26, 2013, 08:13:34 PM
{{{hugs}}} Smitty.  My heart breaks for your family. :(  When my parents divorced when I was 20 and I disconnected from my mother and her drama, my dad and I went to several counseling sessions.  The counselor was supportive and also felt I was stable enough to not encourage me to get more therapy.   Over the years, things came up for me and I reacted in different ways, but ultimately, I was able to follow a path to a normal life.  I say that to encourage you not to give up on your daughter!  She may be dealing with things in a less than desirable way right now and listening to no one's input to change, but just as God is working in your H's life, I believe with a praying mother she has an amazing chance to make a come back and be the person she is meant to be.  I will be praying for her, too, as I'm sure many others here will. 
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Battlefield on April 26, 2013, 08:32:46 PM
Thank u so much Ready,
That is one thing I will never do is give up on any of them, it doesn't matter what they do they r our children and we will love them. I will Love her through this.  All I can do is show her love and kindness and Forgivness. It is so sad. What has happened.
I love her and will help get her through this.
Thank u for ur Prayers and kind and supportive words.
Title: Re: Fasinating Read!!!!!
Post by: Stillpraying on April 26, 2013, 10:39:15 PM
You may be interested in this book:

http://www.boomerangbooks.com.au/Power-of-a-Praying-Parent/Stormie-Omartian/book_9780736922067.htm
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Wed2Him?Whatever. on May 08, 2013, 07:19:23 AM
Hey just an FYI, after visiting Elle Zober's blog, I decided I would order her magnet.

She not only sent the magnet, but also included an autographed copy of her book!

Should make for an interesting read... ;D
Title: Re: greatfamilyhome.com
Post by: Finding Hope on May 09, 2013, 02:45:35 PM
I totally love what she wrote.  ;)
FH
Title: Here's Someone Who Grabbed Life by Horns and Held on Till the End
Post by: Thirsty Duck on May 24, 2013, 01:15:35 PM
I think we can all take a lesson from John Goddard; let's not let life pass us by.

May 17, 2013 - John Goddard dies at 88; adventurer fulfilled most of childhood goals

In 1940, John Goddard, at age 15, created a list of his 127 life dreams. By 1972, at age 42, he had achieved 103 of his original quests (109 at the time of his death according to his website). His story first appeared in Life Magazine entitled, "One Man's Life of no Regrets." As he told the Life reporter, "When I was 15, all the adults I knew seemed to complain, 'Oh, if only this or that when I was younger'. Then they let life slip by them. I was sure that if I planned for it, I could have a life full of excitement and fun and knowledge."

Obituary
http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-john-goddard-20130521,0,7864403.story

“Life List” of accomplishments
http://www.johngoddard.info/life_list.htm

new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2790.0