Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Dandy Lion on November 23, 2011, 05:11:12 AM
-
So I am not so good at starting discussions but here goes:
It seems that a few of us are interested to discuss the OW/OM AFFAIR.....thanks Freddygone for pointing this out.
Because the subject is fairly wide, I thought I would divide it into different sections that many people ask about but if anyone wishes to add more sections then go ahead.
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last
Well in my sitch:
Right now the affair is still ongoing but so far it has been 10 months
From what I could gather .........4 months = EA and 6 months PA
I am sure there is an average time with these things but again each affair is different and each MLCer is different so that can be very many variations. It can also depend on the issues of the MLCer and how long he can keep avoiding. The other element in the affair can be OW/OM, will there be a time when they are fed up of the MLCer. Perhaps they will walk away before the MLCer does.
Is it an affair-down
We all hear that these affairs are usually affairs-down. It would be interesting to know whether we all feel the same. My H has certainly found an affair-down in many ways. Plus she has all the things he hates (or did hate).
What Prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
I think that if we fight the affair in any way this can help prolong it. By not giving the affair any energy it helps to diffuse the tension and leaves the MLCer with the affair running its course. I made sure that I avoided the OW in my sitch, in fact I never mention her but family and friends know all about what is happening and thus made it public to the people who my H holds in high regard.
How does the affair break-down and what are the signs?
I think we all want to know this. What are the signs that it is coming to an end? Perhaps someone who has been through this would be able to give details of any signs they noticed. I would imagine that it is a slow break-down that occurs as they both realize that things are no longer a fantasy. Does the affair break down faster when they live together? Not sure about that either but I imagine they spend more time together and more time to get on each others nerves!
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
I've added this due to my own experience. My H found someone who looks very much like him and his mother. She is even the same height. Also, I was born in a different country to where I live now and OW comes from the same country and not just that she even comes from the same town! :o :o that is weird!
So I know we are all GALing and not paying attention to OW/OM and the affair but we all have questions and all want to hear opinions and discuss our thoughts on this subject so please add more questions and comments and hopefully we will find some valid things to discuss.
Dandy
Previous threads on the subject
Link to original thread "Questions about the affair/OM/OW"
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=30.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1454.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=423.0
-
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last?
I don't know. H's was about 13-14 months and then 4 months of ending all contact.
Is it an affair-down?
Definitely was. She was/is married, and having her own MLC I suspect. She is in many ways my opposite--ugly (hahaha), fake, materialistic, and stupid. I could go on, but it's not a place I want to visit again.
What Prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?--again, I don't know. Each situation is different. I do know we cannot break it up. One huge difference between an MLC affair and a regular affair is that in MLC exposure of the affair does not end it. In a regular affair exposure typically will end it. It's one of the "signs" that this is an MLC.
How does the affair break-down and what are the signs?--I was not privy to the details of the break-down. H was not here, but he was not living with OW. I suspect he began to see me as strong and a lighthouse while she remained weak and ugly. She was not growing, and I was. Again, just my guesses based on things H has said.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?--Not in my case. It was a matter of convenience and the two of them sort of finding each other at a very low point in their lives. He did not intentionally seek her out. They were friends in high school and reconnected via a mutual friend on FB. (How I hate FB!) It truly was a matter of another sad, MLC person being in the right place at the right time. I suspect many MLC affairs are a matter of convenience--someone from the past in many cases or someone that is nearby--eg- a co-worker, a neighbor, etc.
While others have experienced the OW/OM also being married, there are fewer of us with that experience. There is something unique about it, but I've not yet figured out what that is.
Exposure thread link
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=404.0
-
My H's Affair started I believe as EA with a woman 20 years younger than him at work the spring of 2010. It went physical Sept. 2010. Been living together full time since BD 2/2011 but I know she was staying with him months before that at our apt. in the town he works.
She is definitely without a doubt an Affair Down. She lost custody of her son when he was 3. He is now 17. She has spent time in jail for writing bad checks also. 2 kids, 2 different fathers and she's never been married. Not to mention she was living with my H months before he left me in Feb.. Who does that????
I have no idea what breaks down the affair. They live 4 hours away so I have no in-site what so ever to what goes on with them.
H has worked with this woman for 10 years. I guess he felt so low that all it took was for her to flirt with him a little bit and that planted the seeds. He seems to have a huge ego now and so that tells me she is validating him and telling him how wonderful he is. ::) I had my first session with a Therapist yesterday and he said rarely do these relationships work out. He also said
that when their relationships blows up, it's probably going to get really really ugly for my H because OW will sue him for sexual harrassement at work. Funny, thats exactly what my PI told me. Therapist also said there is no way OW is going to want to give up my H or the lifestyle he has given her. I worry that my H will stay with her out of fear of what she will do if he were to end it with her.
Her family are really rough people and are the type that you would not want to get on their bad side if you know what I mean. No wonder he doesn't associate with them at all. ::) I'm sure that my H knew nothing about OW's past or about her family before he got involved with her. He's still living with her so he must be happy with her. The Therapist also told me that a man
going through MLC always has an affair with someone way beneith them and that makes him feel better about himself because he
saved her from her poor pitiful life. He said he is her Knight and Shining Armour. My H under normal circumstances wouldn't give this woman a 2nd look. She is fugly and heavy. Sometimes I just don't get it.
NB
-
Is it an affair-down
H found her on a dating site waiting to be discovered. OW has a good job etc but is emotionally needy. My H became her Knight when her marriage was breaking up. He find her 'friendship' very supportive when he was unhappy in our relationship! Typical 'my wife doesn't understand me' I think.
What Prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
If the LBS is clingy and needy which enables the H to continue to justify where he is will prolong an affair. But it is what it is and if we detach that will ultimately help to break it up. As we get stronger the OW gets more and more needy.
How does the affair break-down and what are the signs?
Not sure you would see the signs of the affair breaking down other than tolerance becomes less between H and OW. Eventually the affair doesn't give them the buzz that it originally gave the MLCer and the OW becomes more needy and emotionally manipulative. She becomes a clinging mess whilst the LBS looks strong and independent. Some MLCers will stay with their OW through neediness and fear of being alone.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
In my H affair the OW has much the same neediness as his mother and H cares for her! It's uncanny really. Often they choose women who fulfill a need they have at that time. That's why eventually when these needs and issues are dealt with the OW becomes their nemesis.
xx
-
I think I am one of the few here that have had front row seats with regards to honey and OW..Yah, Where's the popcorn?? :D
Most surly an affairdown...I am a firm believer that NY-OW has BPD or By-polar, both? Anything you read on OW's just paste a pic of Honey's there and you have it..LOL!
I have no idea what prolongs the affair, I dont see ANY reason why honey and NY-OW continue their R, Its been toxic from the get go..so whatever they are holding onto, is a complete wonder in my eyes.
As for breaking it down...Sometimes I think they will break up through a fight, but then I see honey dive deeper into the addiction and I think different..I think they do die a slow death...
I have seen honey say and do things that SHOULD make anyone break up with him, but it seems that even when him and I have slept together and had sex, or he hangs out with another OW...NY-OW still hangs on, I believe SHE wants HIS money and security. so she refuses to let go for the free ride. She SHOULD see by now that honey doesnt want her here, Yet...there she is holding on for dear life! ugh! LOL!
Sometimes I think there is a way to help them break it off..but then I see she'll DO ANYTHING..so nope. wont work!
-
Is it an affair-down
The verdict is still out on this one, I am not sure. She is well educated, she is prettyish (I consider myself better looking, but maybe that is just me!), she is ten years younger, she is not as well employed, she was married (long term marriage), she has two kids who are about five years younger than ours...
What Prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
I am following the advice given here - no clinging, no confronting and it became public knowledge in June/July 2011, but at the moment, the affair is still going on - I believe they met up again (after a 17 year hiatus) in April 2010, an EA developed as of July 2010 and I guess it became a PA in January 2011 - not sure about all of that though, especially as to when it became a PA.
So it has been ongoing for about a year or a little more.
How does the affair break-down and what are the signs?
I don't know and would like to know...
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
The fact that she is a psychologist and herself from a longstanding marriage (just under 20 years) points to a suspicion that she must be going through MLC herself in my mind.
-
How Long does the average MLC affair last?
I am not sure as each has it's own characteristics and players. If there is Narcissism involved then longer as this individual is on a mission of their own definition. The opposition to the mission will need to be strong or they have to see it as lost and that will take a strong LBS or a MLC who gets really angry with the OM/OW. In my case witha Narcissitic OM so far the whole relationship has been almost 5 years and an affair for 2.5 years. Something will happen soon is my belief, one way or another.
Is it an affair down?
I think almost always, but the other person will initially be a good actor and give the impression of being something different to their actual character. The mask will fall.
What prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
Narcissism will prolong things as they don't want to give up control, whoever is the narcissist will dictate what happens when if they can. Public opinion could go against a narcissist, so visibility will expose them. I don't think we can do anything apart from standing, being honest about everything if people ask and don't bash our spouse. Spouse bashing will prolong things as it pushes them away from us and towards another. (Logical?) Being strong and successful alone should make them want to follow as the affair is a static thing in development terms.
How does the affair break down and what are the signs?
I have no idea, but I am watching. From previous cases I have seen, either OM/OW gets tired of not seeing the cards collapse and gives up or simple incompatability becomes obvious. Sex is not love, soulmates aren't found they develop over years of shared experience. I see my wife regaining some of her respectability in the way she dresses and she is working and being motivated again. Something is changing.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
All I can say is that in my case with my wife and OM, it seems like mutual vanity and panic at ageing. But eventually, looking like an aged rocker shows in the mirror, no matter how bad our eyesight.
-
What prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
Narcissism will prolong things as they don't want to give up control, whoever is the narcissist will dictate what happens when if they can. Public opinion could go against a narcissist, so visibility will expose them. I don't think we can do anything apart from standing, being honest about everything if people ask and don't bash our spouse. Spouse bashing will prolong things as it pushes them away from us and towards another. (Logical?) Being strong and successful alone should make them want to follow as the affair is a static thing in development terms.
Freddy, in my sitch I do not believe either are narcissists. My H never showed this in his character. He is a conflict avoidant character and so is OW because H has told me she runs away from problems and she is afraid of me. A narcissist would not behave in this way. SO ....... does an affair prolong when there are two conflict avoiding personalities running together? Can they keep running? In the end, don't they have to run away from each other?
-
Well everyone here knows Bowser has a ribbon on : Miss Affair Down 2011.
Thanks to what I've read here Thank you!! Thank you!!! Thank you!! and what my sister who's been through this tells me it CAN NOT last. It's delusional. They are mentally unstable and everyone can see it. :o :o ;D
He went to her bc "a black cloud was swalowing him up and he would've died if he'd stayed."
Now 9.5 mos post BD he had moved right in with her after idolizing me for 16 years and doting on me and the Ds.
His self esteem and self worth were in the gutter. He started up with opiates (again) and drinking(again) and off to the races.
I saw pix of him and his S 21 from Chicago on FB yesterday. he looks sooooooooooooooooo sad.
When I see him in my kitchen he looks happy, smiling at me and touchy compliments towards me. I have accepted her as a Symptom of MLC ;D like having a temp if you've got pneumonia.
Since he told everyone Mama Bear was the problem and our M, he needs to proceed with this fantasy until it "plays itself out" I heard him say that once about some other R my H and I were referring to. (a friend of ours)
Since I have a great career and a clean house and the Ds 9 and 11 under control (straight A students) he knows he can take his time(while panicking) hoping I don't meet a nice handsome doctor here at work. :o 8)
H was always very very picky about who he dated. This OW is a train wreck. I have full faith it will implode. Especially since I pretend it's a BLIP on the screen. Finally. :) My sister read that the affair usually lasts 2 years plus or minus. :P
-
Hi Dandy Lion,
I am no expert, not in any way, but I know Narcs have a plan and they keep things going unless things go off plan and out of their control, or if opinion go against them, they may run if opposition is overwhelming. Usually opposition from authority such as a court or general opinion which affects their business.
From what you describe it is unlikely to have the affair prolonged unless the couple are pushed together by either party being critisised, then they may join ranks to fight off that attack.
The other person will always be afraid of the LBS and this is why in my opinion we (LBS) are best to be a little mysterious, distant, unavailable, not pass opinion to them directly, but going about our own life and ideally upwards and therefore an unknown quantity.
How can they (LBS) be so happy without me? Ha Ha
The more internal pressure there is on their relationship the better.
The more relaxed and happy you are, the more pressure you apply without doing anything apart from being sucessful, and the more attractive you become to your spouse.
-
Dandy,
My H and OW are similar- both are conflict avoiders. So I figured this R will last quite a while in avoidance.
I know OW puts the pressure on for H to divorce me so I guess my worry is that H will give in to the pressure and get the divorce so he can marry OW. I know they are weak and cannot fight back so what gets them past wanting a divorce from us? They want to avoid conflict so they will do pretty much whatever OW asks at this point, NO?
I know OW is good at pressure but also manipulation so H is just carrying on with her and I am over here waiting for divorce talk again.....
-
Hi Crazyforhim,
this is your marriage.
I have experience of the other person pushing for Divorce. You don't have to accept it.
It is your marriage and a third party should not be involved or involved in a decision to end it. This was my argument and if anyone should be initiating a Divorce it is the LBS and in their own time.
You don't have to sign anything and you don't have to make things easy for them.
Just my 2p, but we can all be avoiders?
-
Thanks Freddygone,
H brings up the D sporadically so the conversation starts and then it gets put on hold and H doesn't bring it up again for a bit.
I'm not 100% sure but I would think H brings it up to me when OW mentions it to him and then all gets forgotten until the next time it is brought up again...what a cycle.
I understand I have choices but just don't know anymore...ugh!
-
Yes, they mention Divorce as a threat. They think it will frighten us, as they are frightened of the instability. My wife did the same in early days.
Then she was pushed to sign divorce papers by this other man who has never had children and never been married. I simply opposed it, all the accusations of bad behaviour I answered and it was a limp attempt anyway. It is dead in the water.
Now we start to assess finance and assets and that takes a loooonnnnngggggg time. Time is our friend.
I only hear talk of divorce now from the lawyers and I just say 'it is not time yet'.
Relax until pushed, then delay. You don't have to sign your marriage away.
In most cases your spouse does not want that either.
-
Sounds like we need another subject on the list:
How does OW affair affect the MLCer
crazyforhim:
H brings up the D sporadically so the conversation starts and then it gets put on hold and H doesn't bring it up again for a bit.
I'm not 100% sure but I would think H brings it up to me when OW mentions it to him and then all gets forgotten until the next time it is brought up again...what a cycle.
I understand I have choices but just don't know anymore...ugh!
Freddygone,
I have experience of the other person pushing for Divorce. You don't have to accept it.
-
So I am not so good at starting discussions but here goes:
You did a good job with it! I think you phrased the questions just right. ;)
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last
Personally, I don't know if he and the Op are still involved. My feeling is "yes", even after 2 1/2 years, or there is another Op. It's crazy how I don't know... I've always chosen not to seek out the details. Now I'm wondering if I should have "looked". Anyway, that person is irrelevant to me.
Is it an affair-down
From the snippets I was told, I got the feeling that the Op is very much like his mom. Very loud, outspoken, "motherly". Very different from me. I never thought of her as an "affair down" in the sense that I always just thought of her as just another person with issues. The term affair-down sounds so belittling to me but I completely understand the reason why it's used. It was just a personal choice that I made early on not to see the Op in that light.
What Prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
I think that if we fight the affair in any way this can help prolong it. By not giving the affair any energy it helps to diffuse the tension and leaves the MLCer with the affair running its course.
I agree with this. I didn't give it any of my energy but I have no idea what, if any, affect that had on the dynamics of their situation. I guess, I'm not being very helpful, lol. I am curious about all of this, too, and this thread, sounds like a good way for me to consider the issue objectively ( I don't want to put too much thought into it or it will make me nuts ). :)
-
Dandy, While your H may not have been narcissistic before MLC, the majority of MLC experts liken MLC to a narcissistic temper tantrum. HE is being a narc NOW. I have not read your whole thread, but anyone who walks out of a long-term relationship with little regard for the other person, or kids, or family and friends is being hugely narc. It may pass when his storm passes, but for now, that is a huge part of his thinking. I am not an expert, but it only makes logical sense. And most narcs are conflict avoidant, and PA, those things are not mutually exclusive. The only thing narcs are NOT are self-effacing, introspective, highly empathic, or self-sacrificing. Just a thought for you. Love and light, Lisa
-
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last
Well, in my case the affair lasts already 3+ years from July 2008. He's having an affair with a co-worker who he didn't like in the first place, in January 2008 he didn't want to hire her but his colleques did so after a holiday in February 2008 she was hired and also had a desk in his room. He didn't think much of her. She was also married, two kids, much younger than ours. Seven and nine years younger than our oldest son. In may 2008 he asked if we had to stay married because according to him we wanted different things in life. After that crazy behaviour started, losing weight, lots of running and excersizing, asking me if he became bold etc. There were moments he was horrible in his behaviour, kept me wondering what the hell happened with him. In July 2008 he wanted to go on a holiday on his own. Behind my back he booked a holiday to Spain which wasn't the plan in first case. I was very mad at him. He went but after the holiday he didn't get a warm welcome home. I set my boundaries and after many talks about the relationship which according to him was fine he left in September 2008 after saying he had an affair with the co-worker for already two months.
Is it an affair down?
She is ugly, much shorter than me and blond short hair, I am a brunette with long hair. She is three years younger than me but looks much, much older with lots of wrinkles. She has, according to the children, not a nice body. In the past she has lost 60 pounds. She is in MLC also, she came out a long term relationship.
What prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
He is narcistic, is constantly trying to control me but I am not taking the bait. There is only contact through email. In the last three years I have a few times criticized him and been angry at him. I always get monster in return. But these mails were not often sent and with many months between them. Maybe I keep him in the tunnel with my behaviour? I don't know. I still get monster every time I ask him something. If I am nice, businesslike, angry or whatever, nothing matters. Monster, monster or trying to manipulate me.
I am a very strong lady with four feet on the ground, living my life without him. I haven't seen him in a year and haven't spoken with him for two.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
He narcistic, she MLC, he MLC. Both sacrificed their marriage for their affair. So, maybe they'll think they have to make it together for sacrifising so much? In february this year he said to a friend that she is only there for s.x and he is not sure about her, still searching but now it's almost december and nothing is changed.
For the first 11 months they each had a rental, but were always together in his/her house. After that they took another rental together so they are now 2+ years in that house. Plus they are working together so 3 years of staying 24/7 together. So when I read that the relationships blows up quicker when they are together 24/7 is not true in my case, unfortunately. They are still together after 3+ years. In my thoughts it will never blow. Maybe they will stick together for years en years. And than I am wondering: why am I still hoping and praying for the relationship to blow up? After all this time I get the idea it never will.
-
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last
First one 3 - 4 months preceded first bomb drop, I think the new breasts elevated her self esteem and she wanted to try out a younger man.
Second one - pretty sure EA only, old friend from post high school, provided affirmation for the choices she was making. less than 2 years.
The boys tell me she has several male friends, none last more than couple of months.
Is it an affair down?
PA delivery boy - She's a registered nurse
EA - Unemployed musician
Yeah
What prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
Exposure of MLC affair brought out monster in my X, she still denies everything to this day, can't explain the herpes though.
I chose to assert control over my actions including what behaviors I would tolerate in my life. Sometimes ending the marriage is the only way either party to move forward and heal.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
My X's affair(s) served to sever her ties with her current social circle. She retreated into focusing all attention on that one thing everything else was and is expendable.
Happy Thanksgiving Brothers & Sisters
Mac
-
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last
First one - EA with ex-wife from 35 years ago. (She lived in another State. Only saw her face to face for 1 weekend in 2009 - maybe became a PA then, who knows?) - Started mid 2009 - ended soon after he left August - 2010. - so 14 months or so.
Second one - Ex high school girlfriend. Got into contact via FB. (She also lived in another State). Began 11/10 - ended around Feb-Mar 2011 - after they spent a week together in her RV on vacation. - so 4-5 months.
Current one - I think he actually has met someone in the same State! When it began - sometime after March or April. I think it got physical (serious?) by August when he asked me for a divorce. Don't know how long this will last or if I will even know when it is over.
Is it an affair down?
Ex-wife - I believe she was recently divorced from her 2nd husband when she got into contact with my H. I don't think she was ever serious about him, as she dumped him as soon as he left me and the family.
Ex-high school girlfriend - Definitely
Current one? - I have no idea.
What prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
I think the 1st one was prolonged because it was all a fantasy in his head. After he saw her face to face - he fell deeply in love and convinced himself that she was his true wife and I was his affair???? I think this was prolonged by him. She was already done - long before she told him.
The 2nd one - I don't think he was too interested actually. When they first got in touch with each other it was to re-live high school experiences (this is something he does a lot of....re-living high school). When they were with each other 24/7 - he found her to be "too argumentative." (I heard all of this 2nd hand).
We cannot help it to break up. We can only pro-long it by getting involved. Leave the Titanic to sink on its own. It will, trust me, it will.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
First two (2) affairs were very clearly my H's attempt to re-live his youth. Both women were women he was involved with between the ages of 16-20. Both were long distance affairs - and he had much opportunity to imagine in his head that these women were still the youthful girls he remembered. He truly believed he was in love with the ex-wife. The high school girlfriend (I think) pushed him for it to be more than it was.
The current one is unusual - as it appears like he is "moving on" to someone who is actually living near him and not from his past. I guess time will tell on this one.
To this day - my H insists that there is no one else. He even denies the ex-wife - saying that it was just a fantasy in his head and not real. He desparately does not want to be seen as a "bad guy" and wants others to think of our marriage break-up as his inability to live with someone as difficult as I was/am.
L
-
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last
Don't now the average lenght. OW1, to my knowledge (she may had enter the scene before) lasted 18 months. They never lived together.
OW2 is till lasting. There has been 42 months. They live together.
Is it an affair-down
Of course. OW1 did not mind to have a man that left his wife and home; OW2 does not mind to live, and provide her lawyer friend, with a man has eft is wife and home and is fighting his wife in court. None of the two OW can have a very sound personality.
What Prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
No idea if we can help to break it. During OW1 I did all the "donts" it lasted less than OW2. With OW2 husband is a vanisher, I'm NC. It is lasting long and they live together. Unlike with OW1 I never talked about his R with OW2 and never asked him anything, except, last March, if she knew he was still marrried. He said yes. That was all.
My detachent and lack of contact with husband did not shortened the affair. Quite the contrary.
Think they are both in a narcissist trip. Husband is much more of a selfish narcissist than during OW1 and OW2 is the queen of vain (even more than the vain OW1) and narcissism.
How does the affair break-down and what are the signs?
I don't know. I was already back home when husband and OW1 broke down. Looking back, I can say that, on what I now where the final months, we was much nicer with me, even buying (and mailing me) small gifts.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
Husband has a puclic life, a certain fame and level of success. That is very aluring and alows for a display window of husband and OW2 narcissism. I think that helps to prolong the affair. OW2 looks, physicaly, a lot like me. Almost a copy.
How does OW affair affect the MLCer
Would say OW2 made him more selfish and vain.
-
How long does the average MLC AFFAIR last
As far as I know they met up at the end of June 2010. She used to go out with him thirty years ago when they were at art college together and looked him up on FB. BD was beginning of September 2010 and they have been living together since the end of September 2010 in rented accommodation and moved into a new house that they have bought together two weeks ago. So they have been together nearly fifteen months.
Is it an affair down?
She is a couple of years older than him and from what his D says is pretty opinionated. I don't know a lot about her other than that she seems unable to do much for herself. When he came back for a few days in February he said that she had a difficult childhood and was quite needy. Looks like it is Knight in Shining Armour syndrome.
What prolongs the affair, can we help it to break up?
I don't know what prolongs it. She is now divorced and he is rushing to get a copy of his divorce certificate so that they can get married (asked his ex-wife for the details, hasn't told me). Don't think there is anything I can do about it. I assume she is pushing him to get married to legitimise a relationship that is just built on lies and deceit.
I have to talk to him as we work together but I don't know if the fact that he sees me makes it last longer or not.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
I think they are both in MLC. She was on her second marriage which lasted for twenty years. She has four children - two from each of her marriages - and three grandchildren.
-
I'm off to a meeting soon so just a very quick post from me and then I need to update my thread.
H told me yesterday (nov 24th) that he and OW are not seeing each other any more (his words). :)
I don't have any expectations. I know they could be back together by the weekend or he may have truely ended it.
I don't know any more details, like who ended it and why. He only told me so we could finalise property settlement as he needs the money to set up in a bigger place than the bungalow he's in.
The affair was made public 7 months ago in April. I beleive it has at least been emotional for longer, perhaps a year. I also believe he moved in to live with her in June as I found out he bought a bed on ebay and it was at her place along with all his clothes.
I read on Divorce busting that the affair last on average a month for every year of your marriage once it hits the light of day. So I was wondering if this would last 10 months.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/what-would-michele-say-q-a-how-long-do-affairs-last/
Let's see what happens next...........
-
the affair last on avaerage a month for every year of your marriage once it hits the light of day
We had been married for 22 years before BD and he moved in with OW 2 years and 2 months ago. No expectations about times as it will last as long as it needs to I suppose ;)
xx
-
I read on Divorce busting that the affair last on avaerage a month for every year of your marriage once it hits the light of day. So I was wondering if this would last 10 months.
Jeesh!!
So, according to this, my h.'s affair could last 26 months!! Mind blowing...
I am glad God is in control :)
-
the affair last on avaerage a month for every year of your marriage once it hits the light of day
on that case, my husband has largely passed this. OW2 hit the light of the day 38 months ago. even if you count the 3 years we lived together before married, and the five since he left, he already passed that average of a month for years of marriage. given we do not have a marriage since 5 years ago...well...
OW1 did, more or less, lasted, since the light of the day, the time we had been together (10 together + 10 married).
-
My h met o/w in Aug 2008 from what ive heard it was a one night stand...........then he met her again in 0ct 2008 i found after BD in may 2009 and hes still with IT..........so either its 39 months or 37 months on and off.........hes broke it off that many times was goner buy a revolving door lol............this is the longest hes been away 9 months but most times ive asked h to leave........
O/w is 29 now was 26 when he met her......a single parent on benefits with a D6 whom was born out of a one night stand whilst o/w was in a relationship with some over man..........she was on the rebound when she met my h..........the man she was with previous to h left her in Spain :o :o :o :o :o (she lives i the UK) with no money to get home her dad had to send money to get her home...pity he didn't leave her there lol ........
What prolongs the affair is the baby for h and emotional guilt and manipulation from o/w..........I think my h as plans to come home after Xmas.something tells me he wants to spend his first Xmas with the baby then he will leave..just little things he keeps saying..............but no expectations.........
O/w was on the rebound and my h is in MLC so yes a very unusual relationship shes fugly............my h doesn't go for ugly woman and shes both on the inside and out.............however they are a match at the moment cos their both messed up lol xxxxxxxxxx
-
Here's the link in relation to my earlier post.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/what-would-michele-say-q-a-how-long-do-affairs-last/
-
Wow, I have been married 31 years.
From March 2009........Happy Christmas
It will be a Happy Christmas regardless. As it has been for the last 3 years, this train keeps going.
-
Freddy, the train keeps going all right. Our train. Their train is a train wreck...hard to look away. Someone must've thrown that switch and it went onto the WRONG track for a head on collision :o :o and they conductor wants them to pay up!! ???
Happy Turkey Day!! :)
-
OMG then my H and OW are way past due the break up....yikes!
-
I have not posted for some time.May this year in fact. Quick summary BD Jul09, 2 D'S togther 28 years.Affair down absolutely.My divorce came through a couple of weeks ago.I delayed as long as I could.I have been in NC for all of the time we have been seperated except for 8 weeks post BD.H is marrying the OW on Valentines day next year. He looks awful but telling the world he is really happy.He has been in No ctc with his 2 D's for all of the time.A doting father(his words not mine), he sent cards last week for the first time in 2 years asking to meet his daughters.He reconnected with his father, sister and friends after he decided to get married which he announced a few days before his daughters 21st birthday..Can we break the affair..i dont believe we can but havent tried.I have followed all the rules on here as one of the early supporters. D21 saw him a couple of weeks ago with her.Says he is fat(was a personal trainer), looks depressed and bedraggled. These woman bring them to their knees and a s amedium said to me,She will bring him to his knees....We just have to watch and wait..sometimes for a very long time if thats what we chose to do....
Married 28 years so 28 months.....we are at 27 and no sign of an end...xx
-
Hi Dandy Lion,
You had asked the question is it an affair down? I don't see that it is in my partner's case. The woman he is with is 12 or 13 years younger than him. She works in a school as do I. She has worked there about 18 years. I found out she speaks around the country on her area of expertise and has won several awards for her work. She is attractive, seems to have a nice family, lives in a gorgeous, large home with an elderly parent who she helps care for. Her family adores my partner who of course is their knight in shining armor, he always was a kind and caring soul. He takes her mom to church.
She has been written up in papers for her work, one article described her as kind, friendly, perky and very hard working. I am not seeing the affair down. He seems just to have moved on with a new family who seems to love him.
Maybe it isn't always an affair down.
-
brokenhearted - RCR's discusses the "affair down" in one of her articles. Affair downs sometimes pre-exist or are created by the affair dynamic itself.
So, a person could be an affair down in terms of looks, education or social standing. Or they might not be. But someone who is willing to get involved with a married person and conduct a "secret" relationship behind the backs of a spouse and often children is engaging in "affair down" behaviour (so morally speaking it is an "affair down").
Not only that, but they have accepted a person that they KNOW is capable of deceiving the people that they love into their lives, sometimes for a long time. So, they often will gradually engage in "affair-down" behaviour (jealousy, paranoia, controlling behaviours) that they may not have engaged in before. Anyone who thinks this is the dynamic of a healthy relationship is already damaged in some way - another thing that makes this an "affair down".
I have no idea if my H's OW is a nice person (I assume that in some areas of her life there are people who believe that she is). She is younger than me and him, she is reasonably attractive and reasonably well educated. But I know that she has big abandonment issues that have damaged her - H gets this ridiculously OVER sympathetic glaze across his eyes when talks about her "problems", as if they justify her actions. I don't know what she was like in her previous relationships (I actually don't know that much about her), but I have witnessed "affair down" behaviour in her. Watching H like a hawk, determining how long and when he can spend time in my presence and on the phone to me. I am sure that he has had to bend over backwards to accomodate her paranoia (but being in MLC he currently confuses controlling and clinging behaviour as "love".)
I don't know your situation, but my guess is that you would never contemplate dating a married person, broken. So, at least in the sense that she either does not have, or does not live by, good moral values, she is an affair down from you.
-
As much as I read and know about the OW it still baffles the mind that someone can believe this
R is good and that the MLCer loves them. I don't think I will ever understand the R between my H and OW it seems so
disfunctional but they think it's all good.....so hard to wrap my head around.
-
I totally agree CrazyforHim.
OW is texting him all the time and he is muttering "Shut up " and "Go Away" at his mobile phone but is still determined to marry her now that her divorce has come through. This is not a happy man and I just find it so difficult to get my head round.
-
Chrysalis,
I guess the fact that they stay together for SO long is one thing. Who could bear to be in a R like this for a few months let alone a few years!!! I know we aren't supposed to worry about their R but when I can't wrap my head around it- makes it more difficult to let go of it. I am the type of person that once I understand and grasp the situation I can let go of it! Dectaching is easier but their R is confusing....
-
I don't want to sound off the wall, but my w has painted herself as the wounded princess. She lets OM know that he is her knight and king all wrapped up into one package. If he told her that it is okay to go play in the street, she would. Part of the problem is that it is all fantasy for my w and him. I mean, they don't live with each other. They contact with each other through email, chat, even though she denies it, I bet they have skyped each other. Have they met, I do not know but OM has been itching for the opportunity.
However, in our MC, we have just broached the affair and until she is ready to give it up, I cannot really make it a topic. Only the alcoholic can commit to quitting. The others can urge, but the alcoholic is the one that has to make the personal commitment.
One thing I will state, OW does not care one bit about you at all. My w has no concerns about OM's wife. She simply states, "She is his problem." Of course, it would be nice to have her find out and call my w and chew on her. To threaten her and make her realize that her fantasy involves real people and real feelings. Would it stop the affair? I don't know.
After all, my wife thinks the world of him and can draw on him for emotional support without any commitment. It is an odd relationship, but beleive me, there are real feelings and bonds even despite the great distance.
Just my perspective.
-
Hey Ready...
This is just my .02...
I had ow contact me...I knew about her, and did nothing...was hard, VERY hard, but I wasnt buying into any of their crap...anyways, I simply claimed I had no idea who the heck she was, or why she was calling me...ended that
Like a year and a half later, she tried again...at this point I had grown, and knew SOOOO much more, I simply told her that I was sorry, I didnt have time or desire to be in their fantasy land at all...and basically said goodbye and hung up...nothing again ever...
I have no clue as to what she would have said to me, I didnt and still dont care...they are crazy...
I do agree with you 100% they do not care one bit about the spouse, and honestly when I try to pin point the timeing of those calls...it was when problems started, the first time, and the second was when he was threatening to leave but still hadnt...
maybe this will help...
Hugs,
L
-
How long is the 'affair' lasting
I believe at least emotional as of 2 years (pre-first bomb drop and D filing day) because I brought up a story a friend shared of a woman she knew that got in the head of a male coworker and poisoned his mind to his marriage. I also shared with him when my friend is out with that friend for drinks, etc. by the time the night is over, she questions everything about her marriage and thinks of leaving till she wakes up in the morning and is like - whoa!. H seemed to agree with me - like I hit a nerve. He almost did a headslap 'ah ha!'
I believe physical as of end of 1/11 but I know as soon as he moved out 3/11.
Is it an affair down?
LOL The mother of all affair downs physically. The woman is a DECADE OLDER, and is probably the most physically unattractive woman I've ever seen. Literally. She also looks a decade older than she really is. My h is attractive, tall, slim, younger looking than his age. I mean, if you saw the pictures... wow
She is not liked at work and I was told she was manipulative, conniving, needy, lonely, and power-hungry.
Her divorce from a 38 year marriage was final 1/11. She has SIX grandchildren. LOL
What prolongs affair, can we break it up?
I believe what prolongs it is in part due to the 'affair down'. OW has scored big time with my H. I know she is feeding his ego and showering him with praise and adoration 24/7. She also wears the pants and is 'directing' him. He never knows what to do so she is a strong woman, calling the shots. They only socialize with her older crowd doing things he wouldn't do with me or his friends. She needs him (she scored) and at her age I believe she won't let her guard down ANY time soon. She will never let him go on her watch.
IDK how we can break these things up.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
Well, risk of professional reputation to H. Her advanced age and mostly looks.
How does OW affair affect the MLCer
She is shiny and new. She showers adoration upon him. He could've gotten that from me but I wasn't 'new'. H seems to now have an arrogant vibe to him. Pompous if you will. Sense of entitlement. Harder/colder. Others have noticed this change.
-
How long is the 'affair' lasting
This is a whirlwind started from what I can figure in May of 2010 ended Jan 2011
Is it an affair down?
Well she was fat ugly and an exprostitute, She lied and cried a lot to manipulate and inflict guilt. Same age as me.
What prolongs affair, can we break it up?
I don't have a clue but my stratagy was to give him what he wanted as fast as humanly possible because I knew the faster things went the sooner they would break up, Her true colors would come out and it would be over. And it was.
Is there anything unusual about the affair?
Probably the part where he got sucked into trying to save her AFTER he was actually trying to get rid of her; but moved her into our house anyway. :o
How does OW affair affect the MLCer
Early on he was like "I thought I was dead!! She makes me feel so alive!!" Then it turned into "How could I have been this stupid??"
-
InThis:
That has to be a MLC'ers script my H said exactly the same thing.
"I thought I was dead!! She makes me feel so alive!!" Then it turned into "How could I have been this stupid??"
I am so amazed that they all follow the script so closely.
-
Yeah you should have seen him Sassy he was practically dancing-and this guy don't dance.
I was standing there with the tears just running down my face. I was just devastated. He's leaning over looking in my eyes smiling and just joyous. I mean honestly the MOST elated look on his face.
I'll never forget it as long as I live.
-
Just another lie they tell themselves. Trust me, they feel it and believe it at first. But eventually reality sets in and the BS they are experiencing fades. H has recently told me how much they fought (it was a lot towards the end). Sounds like it was really making him feel alive!!! NOT. I said pretty funny you wanted to leave your family for someone you have been with for 8 months and constantly fighting, wow, fun. Heck, I don't think we had a major fight until we were married for about ten years. We both laughed at how stupid he was. He can see it now . . . but it certainly couldn't see it then. OW is a drug and they are addicted.
-
Sassy- how long was H with OW?
-
How long is the 'affair' lasting Started Oct 2010-July 2011 10 months but there were several breakups and my H was away for 3-4 months during their affair. Emotional attachment has continued from July until recently.
Is it an affair down? Yes, while she has a good job ( a nurse), she appeared independant but quickly got needy whith constant contact. She is way uglier. She also, I believe has some mental issues, 48 yrs old never married and can get obsessive with emails, texts and phone calls. Recently is getting more desparate since H cut all contact.
What prolongs affair, can we break it up? I don't know. But, I think it helped for me to never contact her, show my strength and independance as she got needier. Her personality problem's is what I think did her in when I stepped back. I don't think I had much influence except to stand my ground.
How does OW affair affect the MLCer It causes intense emotions, guilt, shame now. He is embarrassed and everyone had told him what an affair down she was..no one liked her. He got no validation from his friends although they were there for him. If he ends it with me they will be there for him. I would not expect anything less from them.
-
H was with Ow eight months with multiple breakups, lots of pressure and lots of fighting. What was so attractive about that?
-
I wonder that myself all the time...that was a short relationship.
Just was curious as I know all situations are different.
-
I agree in MLC terms it was short (not for me though). I firmly believe that if H wasn't fired from his job (they worked together) that this crap would still be going on. He got fired because he couldn't pay attention to work, ow and his family. His life was falling apart at the seams. While it is a struggle now, I thank the Lord for his intervention.
-
Sassy, I'm sorry- didn't mean that to come out like it did.
I guess I meant short in comparison to my H's relationship...by all means I know
the standing seems forever and didn't mean that your pain was shorter than anyone else's.
sorry if it came across as condescending...
-
LOL, it didn't come across that way. :) One day on this journey is too long in my book!
-
NO KIDDING!! I remember when it was minute to minute then hour to hour UNTIL it finally got to day by day.
I was talking to my Dr and she said to look at how far I had come. I used to live my life in minutes now I say to myself that maybe I'll feel better by Christmas. At least I'm looking at a month down the road ( well 20 days anyway)
It's not fun and it's not rewarding for me because I want it to be done!! All the hurt and the emptiness and the anger and sadness just DONE!!
-
Dandy Lion,
Thanks for starting this thread. It's interesting to read other's OW stories in compact form.
Also, though, a bit depressing for me. My H has been in his affair a l-o--n-g time. Significantly longer than most here. If I believe what he tells me, he met OW almost 3 years ago, in Feb. '09.
He met her in another state where he had to make periodic trips for his work. They immediately began an EA which became a PA six months later, in late summer '09 (of that I am certain because of evidence I discovered after BD.)
So they've been sleeping together for close to 2 1/2 years.
BD was 11 months ago. Immediately after BD they moved in together and have been inseparable ever since.
I don't know about the affair down. At first, I thought so. My H told me at BD that she wasn't as smart or as well educated as me, that she was "an ordinary person" (his words.)
My D, who has met her several times, tells me the same thing, that she's "average." My D tells me, "Mom, she's the anti-you." My D, who's getting her master's in social work so she has some idea of what she's talking about, also tells me she thinks OW is clinically depressed. Need I say that my D does not like her.
OW's been married twice. Her first H was an alcoholic (all this is according to my H) and her second H supposedly "struck her" once. Coincidentally that incident took place at around the same time she and my H began sleeping together.
OW was a nurse and was married to a doctor when she met my H. She left her H when the affair with my H became physical and her divorce was final shortly after she began living with my H here in our state 11 months ago. She's disabled due to a chronic neurological condition so she doesn't work.
She left her family and friends in another state to come live with my H on his boat. Don't quite know what to make of that. Who chucks their whole life to follow a man to a place they've never been before?
I only know three people who've met her. My D, my SIL, and a mutual friend of my and my H's. They all said the same thing, more or less, to me about her. That she "seemed nice."
She's 8 years younger than me. I've seen photos of her on FB and she's not unattractive (although physically she's very different from me.) I'd rate her at about the same level as me looks wise. We're just different types.
My H's family seems to have accepted her. I've only heard from the one SIL since BD, but she didn't tell me that any of H's other siblings had a problem with her. One bit of juicy gossip my SIL told me was that H's other sister complained about OW being a sloppy housekeeper of the boat. I found that hard to believe because my H always wanted things "ship shape" when we were on board. Took great pride in that. Strange that he'd tolerate OW being a slob. Guess that's all part of the "becoming opposite" of who they'd been phenomena.
Isn't it one of the purposes of this board to drum into us that there's NOTHING we can do about the MLC affair? At least in terms of shortening it. I know RCR says we can prolong it by pursuing but as far as shortening it I understand it's akin to a fever. It has to wear itself out in its own time.
Well, I saw my H today and he told me that he feels his life is now "sane." He's deep in the tunnel and what he shows me, anyway, is that he's firmly convinced he's done the right thing and that our marriage had become unbearable to him.
2 1/2 years is a long time to be sleeping with someone. Frankly, as the months go by and I see no signs of regret on my H's part, I don't have much hope he's coming out of this anytime soon--if ever.
TMHP
-
TrustingMyHP, thanks for your input.
2 1/2 years is a long time to be sleeping with someone
From what I read, 2 and half years must seem like forever, but replay is the longest stage and don't we all know it. I think it is important to realize that the length of the affair varies from person to person, perhaps there are some averages but there are also the short term affairs and the long term ones. Your H sounds to me that he has found the opposite of you, perhaps he will end the affair once he realizes that the opposite does not make him happy either!
Well, I saw my H today and he told me that he feels his life is now "sane."
Sounds funny to me that he has to tell you that he is now sane, that implies that when he left you he was insane........so he left you during a time of insanity, so now that he is sane he can hopefully make some clear-headed decisions to leave OW!!!
Take care
Dandy
-
TMyHP
My H has been with OW since March 2009 although I strongly suspect that he met her late 2008. It has been physical since Sept 2009. She refused him sex before then as he was still living at home with me and the children (an OW with morals????). Actually the chase for sex sealed my fate. OW was very clever when she used sex and used it as a positive consequence of leaving me.
So don't lose heart. Some on the forum are even longer. Every story is different with different lengths depending on the issues that need addressing.
It sounds as if your H wears a mask effectively. And DL is right. Maybe his life is less frantic now everything is in the open. But has more time for thinking ::)
xx
-
Trusting, mine has been gone off to fantasy land since 08 and yes, it seems an eternity. I feel he is emotionally unstable among other things! But I also realize the power the OW in this case wields... OW is definitely an affair down and if he were to stop and think he would realize such. She is not well liked at all in her job place, has been married twice in about a ten year time span, and is, as far as I am concerned a cheater (I wonder if it's serial cheating??)...so that puts her having to keep him to herself which means isolating him and it seems she has done this.
My feeling is it will take time and then time for our MLCer to get the courage and the strength to get out of the hole!! They put themselves there but then how do they maneuver to get out...and for some, I see this as a tricky thing to do as it requires much more energy on their part and determination. Thnk about it...how much support does he have from others to help him out? Is he able to ask for help? And can he do so without looking like the fool he has become?? So can he override his ego to ask for help or to just plain do what has to be done to get out??? Or does he continue on with her in control??
Then if you read about suicides on the divorce busting site....and yes, I worry about myXH, knowing
I'm not supposed to but how can I not?? This is the part that I feel prolongs the affair.......any thoughts??
-
I am sorry!! I'm reading this again and it sounds negative but I was just putting out questions that have been going through my mind!! I have been trying to rationalize all this and trying to understand it too!! I see my husband as being vulnerable with his issues and the OW gave him a different perspective of it all...a perspective that allowed him to bury deeper those demons he needs to deal with. That was what I wanted him to do and she convinced hm that I was being cruel. I was being real! Because I have had very similar issues that I have been facing head on. SHE was his CURE and his bandaid. Things have calmed down to some extent because they are now "settled" in a new home but I feel as those it's going to be the calm before the storm. So let us pray that this gives them the needed time to gather their strength and courage to do what is not only right for them but for us as well. Some men are more vulnerable and their issues deeper than others and so the time it takes them to say enough is enough will be prolonged...my thoughts anyways as my H was not the most decisive type!!! Especially when the MLC had really kicked in! He couldn't find a parking space in an empty lot!!!! Seriously!!!!! And I couldn't for the life of me figure it out!!!!
-
I am sorry!!
No need to be sorry Standing Tall. The whole point of this thread is to discuss our feelings regarding the MLC affair. The affair itself is a very negative part of MLC and causes the worst pain possible for the LBS. Please feel free to be open about what you feel and think about the affair and how you feel your MLCer is dealing with the affair and how everyone is affected. These are important things to discuss and bring out into the open. There are times when we feel very negative about our situations, and we all know that being positive is what we strive for but real life is not always positive and we have times where we all need to bring out topics that needs to be talked over.
Thanks for posting Standing Tall, I hope that some others have some thoughts regarding your post
My feeling is it will take time and then time for our MLCer to get the courage and the strength to get out of the hole!! They put themselves there but then how do they maneuver to get out...and for some, I see this as a tricky thing to do as it requires much more energy on their part and determination. Thnk about it...how much support does he have from others to help him out? Is he able to ask for help? And can he do so without looking like the fool he has become?? So can he override his ego to ask for help or to just plain do what has to be done to get out??? Or does he continue on with her in control??
Then if you read about suicides on the divorce busting site....and yes, I worry about myXH, knowing
I'm not supposed to but how can I not?? This is the part that I feel prolongs the affair.......any thoughts??
-
I have to say I agree with the last two posts. I have a fear my H will never be able to dig himself out of the hole. He just keeps digging
his hole deeper and deeper. I worry he may be one of of the ones that does commit suicide because of what he has done to me and our son.
He has been so cruel. It is a very scary thought. Everyday I ask myself if I can hang on. H continues to treat me like sh**. Yet he
created this entire mess not only with me and our son but the IRS. Last week I had a couple of days I felt happy. On the 2nd day, I had
to call H about the IRS and this mess he got us into. He started screaming at me again. He pulled me right back in to his drama, he took the little bit of happiness away that I was finally starting to feel. Now I feel depressed again. I hate MLC.
-
NB,
Muster your strength and know that you have done all you can and pray that God will guide him and give him the strength he needs. We can not turn back time, we must continue to move forward working on ourselves and building our own strength. We worry but there is nothing WE can do and we have done the best we can for them. So we must pray for ourselves as well, for strength and courage too. Remember, we LBS's are much braver and much stronger than we think ourselves to be. It's not easy but we are survivors. Try not to get too down.
-
I just found this blog today from a woman who has been cheated on. Here's the link to it
http://ayearaftertheaffair.blogspot.com/
I don't know for sure that her H is in MLC but according to the OW's version of events as described in her email to the H, they were definitely living in some sort of fantasy. YUCK!
-
Someone asked me the other day to define a "Normal" affair. This has me thinking, lately, that all midlife affairs could probably be related to MLC, or be MLC affairs in and of themselves. I think it's an interesting idea anyway. I read it somewhere else as well...been mulling that one over.
But does anyone have a good way to define what might be a "NORMAL" affair? I have read so many therapists and counselors list out 300 varieties of affairs, all different.. And I am still confused. What is a normal midlife affair as opposed to a midlife crisis affair? So many of the elements of the other garden variety affairs are inside the MLC affair. Is it that the crisis, other than the affair itself, must last a specific amount of time? That the person has to change his denomination or some other more radical personality change (other than just a personality change in general?) for it to be MLC? I am on a slippery slope here??? slip slip slip...
Thoughts?
-
I personally think most affairs are NOT MLC affairs, the reason being that MLC is really not very common, not a full blown crisis. An affair in midlife does not necessary make it an MLC affair.
-
I personally think most affairs are NOT MLC affairs, the reason being that MLC is really not very common, not a full blown crisis. An affair in midlife does not necessary make it an MLC affair.
Why does it seem like it's happening all around me?
Just within the last 2 years...my BIL went into a dark depression...angry, began taking meds for various syndromes that didn't work..has not left home, but is WEIRD. Totally changed his personality after quitting his job out of spite for his wife? This happened 2 years ago...ongoing.
My friend who officiated at our wedding....left his wife and child for a 29 year old wanna be actress in LA and is living in an unfinished condominium. This happened just a few months ago.
My husband, BD just last fall, a year ago.
Me? Over a year ago.
A husband of a client of SIL's (she gave her this website just a few weeks ago).
One friend from here had his boss go MLC just a few weeks ago.
It doesnt feel rare to me. But worth thinking about.
-
I almost wonder sometimes if it's like when you buy a red car, suddenly you see red cars everywhere. We are so hyperfocused, it DOES seem to be everywhere. Having said that...it DOES seem to be everywhere for me, too! But again, I just turned 39, and most of the people I interact with are in the 35-55 age range, so maybe it's just part of my station at the moment.
To me, calling something an MLC affair has a lot to do with the other things going on for the MLCer. They do tend to be more involved than just sexual affairs, and last longer, but at the same time they have a juvenile quality. I'm not the expert though, I just know my H has been very clear to me that his reasoning for it had to do with feeling very alone and he felt OW had similar problems. Last time he spoke of it he continued to downplay it all, though he presents to her that it is a big true love story. Even when I said to him that I thought it was a big true love story, he laughed and said, "Oh, no...NO!". ??? I believe if it was legitimate, he'd legitimize it. ;)
-
Other than the LBS from this site I have met in person, I can't think of ANYONE I know IRL who has had/is having/is dealing with someone in MLC.
-
I almost wonder sometimes if it's like when you buy a red car, suddenly you see red cars everywhere. We are so hyperfocused, it DOES seem to be everywhere. Having said that...it DOES seem to be everywhere for me, too! But again, I just turned 39, and most of the people I interact with are in the 35-55 age range, so maybe it's just part of my station at the moment.
A bit of both those things. We are hyperfocused, or too aware, of MLC and tend to see it everywhere. If we interact with the 35-55 age range we are likely to see MLC more than on other age ranges.
I have knew some people that have had MLC, like my cousin. A male friend of mine is having one but he is divorced (has been for over 10 years) so it is not causing the problems we deal with.
In a normal affair, if the affair is found, the spouse will try to put an end to the situation and will not want out of the marriage. Most normal affairs, midlife or not, end at it. They do not see a spouse acting weird, personality change, and the rest of the lot. Lots of people have affairs but few have MLC one. Also, in most affairs one does not move to live with the other person. Nor are the children put aside.
-
I am wondering if this is enough of a difference...the difference in degrees. Because when I had an affair, even though I loved my child more than anything on earth, I put my child's needs aside for my affair...i hurt my child. Any affair hurts the children. So is it then just a question of degree? Or a question of awareness? I did not believe i was hurting my child at the time. I thought maybe I was even helping him...better for everyone.
I like these ideas you guys are giving me, but I am not sold yet....it can't just be a matter of degree. I think I am still feeling the motivations are the same. I guess i need to interview a bunch of people who had affairs and are still married. OI!!!
-
Perhaps what this thread is really asking is whether or not someone is in MLC. It might be beneficial to look at MLC symptoms other than the affair.....and there are typically several.
Vanity/aging
Projection/Hoovering
Doubts about belief system, values or life structures
Monster, sudden anger
It might also be helpful to read Limitless' post in the thread titled "Why stand when you could move on?" Limitless matches up symptoms and MLC behavior to the information on this site and other resources.
-
Underpressure, may I ask what was different between your affair and your husband's one? Why are you here? If it was a normal affair, like the one you've had, would you be here?...
Of course an affair hurts the kids but MLC is not a question of degrees.
DGU listed several of MLC sympthoms. The affair is only one of them. The other symphtoms, or several of them, have to be there for it to me MLC. MLC is way too different from a regular affair.
-
Here is my take again personally to clarify. I know my H is in MLC with certainty. He has changed completely from who he was before, even to the point of changing political affiliations. His core values he used to have are not evident. Especially around BD, he monstered and he was very angry and he was mean. My real H was never intentionally mean. He treated me very well. I do not know with 100% certainty that he has had an affair (s) but am about 99.5% he has had an least one A that was an EA, not sure beyond that. If he was/is he hides it well and keeps it covered up.
I go with the assumption he has had what could at least be termed an inappropriate relationship because he is in MLC and very possibly a full blow physical affair (or more than one). However, it is clearly not the dominant "issue" here. What he has going on is not about the possible affair, but something else.
Don't know if that helped at all.
-
Trusting...that does help a lot. The reclarification that the Affair is not the most important part, but the crisis itself is.
AnneJ...I am here because I love you guys.
And besides that I dont think my affair was "normal" for me or for anyone else, or in the grand scheme of things. I don't know what that would mean exactly. And I demonstrated all those traits that DGU listed above, (thanks DGU), at the time of, or even before my affair. So maybe my H is having a normal affair and I am the one in crisis.
I think i need to remove the branch from my own eye before I try to take tweazers to H's.
-
{{{hugs}}} UP! No matter who is in crisis or who isn't, the actions are the same: take time to heal from what has happened, focus on your growth (as you have been doing). You have grown tremendously in the time you've been posting here, obviously doing lots of good things, and we love you too. :)
-
UP, IMHO, there's nothing normal about affairs! And, people can have many identity crises in their lives so who knows?
-
Hi UP,
You could have been in crisis. Who knows? But like Ready2 said, what it matters is to heal and focus on your growth. Would say your husband is having a MLC. We love you too. :)
CJ, an affair is normal in the sense that it is a common thing. It is not a rare thing. A MLC affair is less normal because MLC are not that common. True, can people have several identity crisis in their lives. But the devastation a MLC causes is different from all other identity crisis.
-
I've asked this question many times myself and the answers continue to elude me. I think it is odd in normal life to have an "affair down" in the way that we describe it. We are conditioned culturally (in almost all of the cases here) to try to "trade up" into more financial security or a superior looking mate as we tend to base our self worth on these things (erroneously). To leave your mate for someone in a lower economic bracket or less aesthetically pleasing goes against the grain to say the least. We are all familiar with Mamma Bear's H having run off with a convenience store skank who lives in a dingy apartment with no cable. Why leave a beautiful and successful woman with likely financial security for life? I know some beautiful and wealthy women are wretched on the inside, but we all know that is not the case here. We know there is something going on that we cannot see, and we know that it has to do with the wayward spouse and not the responsible parent.
-
The affair down is not always based on appearances or money. I personally feel that person is a reflection of our broken spouse. The affair is that an affair, I don't think either is much different. When one choose to stray there is something wrong. MLC affairs are just affairs with a whole lot of other psychological crap thrown in. Remember they are going back to a different time in their lives to "fix" what they did wrong or didn't do. Whether they succeed at it or not is another question.
So I contemplated the same question for the last two years and to me there is not much difference except for the MLC stuff thrown in. H was not a narcissist preMLC but during replay he was, he was abusive and for 20+ years prior he was not. . . We all know the list can go on.
Sassy
-
RCR's article on the Affair Down
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_affair-down.html
-
This was a post from RCR which I think sets out the difference very well
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=628.msg34431#msg34431
and includes my own response as someone who had a none MLC affair , my post copied below
Archived Topics / Re: How do you know it's a MLC?
« on: December 23, 2010, 11:50:36 PM »
Looking forward to RCRs article on this one as it just seems to get more complicated ???. Thought I would offer my own perspective as I have also had an affair which my husband discovered approx 2and a half years before BD, something which I believe to be the "trigger event" for his own MLC.
My own affair was an emotionally bonded affair
Emotionally-Bonded Affair: This is an affair fueled by in-fatuative addiction. They believe they are soul mates.
Sound familiar? But this does not mean it is or is not MLC. An MLC affair is an emotionally-bonded affair just like squares are rectangles.
I do not feel I was in MLC but was infatuated with OM until I eventually ( after about 13 months of PA) came to see him as weak (and myself!) and not someone I wanted to spend my future with, coupled with a corresponding internal recommitment to my H and my M. I can definitely identify with the soul mate component from both myself and OM, I also projected blame for the A on my husband ( focused upon him being unsupportive and his depressive personality !). My husband was totally unaware of my A until discovery approx 2 months after it had ended , I did not do monster or display any Replay behaviours (othr than losing weight, taking an interest in my appearance which I feel would be typical of any A MLC or not), indeed my husband indicated that I deserved an acting aard for carrying on so normally whilst conducting the A, ie I had no personality change and continued to function in demanding job and being wife and mother. I experienced significant shame and remorse during the A, on discovery and to this day ! I have expressed this to my H throughout
Fast forward to today and why I feel my H's A is different and that my H is in MLC. BD was July this year some of the things I feel make his an MLC case are:
complete personality change -from dutiful and loving man to selfish monster spewing alien
periods of vanishing alternating with sporadic contact with kids and a complete abandonment of old friends and family
replay style behaviours including new hobbies and grungy style of dress (shoes with holes in :o) slang style of talking
No planning , despite saying marriage over and doesnt love me at BD made no moves to get out - has now been left 6 weeks (largely prompted by me as I found his monster and cake eating too much - I know we should let them go of own accord but I wasnt able to take it)
Memory loss have to repeat several conversations
Lies about OW -is not able to admit he is in R with her
Running behaviours - can be at the house for hours and doesnt remove coat and hat, frequently stands to drink his cup of tea and actually stands near the door of our living room with one foot on the wall (behind him as if he is ready to launch himself like a runner -get the picture :o)
Negative attachment- turns up to do Monster - an example it would have been our 20th Wedding Anniversary this week , I honour it by going to the church we were married in to pray for our M ( I am not religious but it felt like something I wanted to do). He honours it by turning up unexpectedly having not been NC for over a week to collect furniture for his new rented house from our garage, stomps about throwing furniture swearing and snarling at me throughout - Happy Anniversary ! Next day again unexpected returns silent and depressed eats something falls asleep watches TV with us then leaves late hey ho !
Im not sure if this is helpful but I am clear that our situations are different even if the Affair attachments have similarities. I dont feel I was MLC but feel confident that my husband is ( in addition to above he has childhood issues alcoholic/mental health issues divorced parents etc , I am from stable and loving family). On discovering this site I decided to stand and feel that MLC offers me some hope , even if we have spouses with emotionally bonded affairs however my own perspective is that these too can run their course and need not signify the end of the M. On discovery my husband wanted me to stay and I wanted that too, we have struggled and now with his MLC don't know what the outcome will be but looks like we are headed for "Interesting Times"
Hope this helps FB
-
Thundarr, that “affair down” thing of lower economic situation of uglier than the spouse does not apply to my husband’s OW1 or OW2 (nor to many OW/OM). They are as less or as good looking as I am, they had more available money because they were single and live with their parents/family. They are what could be, at each of to the affairs started, considered regular women on their early 30. They are both college educated, one of them has a degree. They both had good jobs.
There was no affair down in money or beauty sense. Agree with Sassy, they are just a reflection of our MLCers. They are someone who is willing to lead the life the MLCer is leading. Or someone who thinks they are going to rescue the dumsel in distress, like OW1. She didn’t manage to get him away from the clubbing world, she end up leaving. OW2 is, so far, totally into that clubbing and nightlife thing.
-
Annej my H too doesn't seem to have affaired down, she tweeted she was mistaken for Keira knightley! And I think her parents are wealthy, she rents a flat on her own in the city having chucked her boyfriend out when she got her claws into my H, but gets paid only a below minimum wage from my H! He's CEO of the business and she works for him. She 12 years younger than him, 14 years younger than me and they seem to be super happy .... Moved in together no less! He's desperately unhappy whenever he is around me and when I've gone or he's gone he visibly perks up.
Seems pretty weird to have an affair and move into the girls flat within months of leaving wife and kids take his guitar and a bag of clothes, leave everything else here at the house, come back and stay with kids at the house whilst I'm here too, not tell your kids, not sort out anything financially.
So I don't see it as an affair down, he's got a younger model without any ties or responsibilities. Her only responsibilities are to him as his lover and employee! She would annoy the £hit out of me but then I don't require constant ego boosting and adoration from a 25 yr old pretty, confident, fun girl!
-
TT - she's got involved with a married man who has children - it is an affair down in anyone's books. She's 25 and stupid - emotionally healthy people do not get involved with married men or women - they are emotionally unavailable and prepared to take scraps of what the MLCer can offer.
Looks have nothing to do with it - neither does money.
The OW in my situation was 42 when she started seeing my H - none of what I am about to write is a lie 'she is a spinster who got involved with a married man when she knew he had children' - hardly a ringing endorsement is it?? If she was my daughter I wouldn't be too proud and I bet she isn't when closes her eyes and has to eventually face what she has done.
baggagereclaim.com is a site about OW and how they become OW but more importantly how they can build proper grown up relationships built on self respect and good self esteem - noone who is involved with a married man has either self respect or good self esteem.
-
I agree with MF. An affair down has nothing to do with looks and money, although in some cases those qualities are also there. It is about their affair partners emotional makeup. What kind of person has an affair especially one that continues without a divorce. Example, my H's affair partner, while she was not exactly pretty, she had a good job, owned her own home, money saved for her future, friends, hobbies, etc. But when you looked closer, she was manipulating, obsessive at times, never had a long term relationship past a couple years even though she was close to 50 yrs old, etc. My H has told me she has "many issues". They can only keep the facade of being so good for so long, eventually these people let their guard down and there true colors come out.
-
Followingbliss: THANK YOU for coming back and helping me with this! I don't know if I will ever really have the answer, but I am glad you found it through much work and help through this group of wonderful friends and thoughtful minds.
The slippery part for me in all of this is the suggestion (i believe RCR writes it somewhere) that an MLCer does not know, or he/she will not admit that he/she is in MLC. This reminds me the old adage "If you think you might be crazy, you aren't".
But is that really true? Is it really impossible for a schizophrenic person to know they are schizophrenic? or to question their "sanity"?
I am tiptoeing over quicksand with my own history. I don't KNOW if I believed I was in crisis at the time of my affair or if I was simply in DENIAL of the crisis. IF I did have a crisis, what was the 'trigger'? That seems to be an important question to ask...I do recall going from a steady stream of frustration and anger and depression and somewhat low energy moping around to BAM high-energy, plotting, planning, building, remodeling, losing weight, spending, and trying to get out of the house all the time. Hard to do with a 4 year old. My H remembers that period of intense energy to me and says I was "on fire". It was during this time that he said "You don't love me anymore". It was also during this time that I went from intense fear of looking in the mirror to photographing myself regularly as if I was looking for myself...did I recognize that person?
The energy started before the affair. But it gave me energy FOR the affair. Then I got on the high of the affair, and so it became complicated even more.
I told my therapist the first time I called him "Help, I think my marriage is falling apart" while standing on a ladder and screwing drywall in to the ceiling. This was before the affair had been discovered. I talked about my H in therapy for months. Especially after he moved out. And it wasn't until I thought of the correlations between being 12, date-raped, and this strange guy I had picked as an affair partner...and even my husband...What? Everyone was like "my rapist". Why had this come up out of the blue? It happened 32 years ago. THREE DECADES AGO! But suddenly it was like I was reliving it. And I remember the stockholm syndrome. I had it that night, the next day, the day after that. I never revealed the identity of my rapist. I let it disappear into the shadows.
What does this have to do with anything...Define Normal Affair? I love the thread that Following Bliss posted the link to. RCR can make everything seem so clear. My friends had encouraged me to get a boyfriend, and/or leave my H. At times I thought OM was a springboard, or an exit affair, only I didnt want to leave. I still dont. Even if I may have to. I was afraid of my H. I did have an emotionally bonded affair...big time. But i also ended it very quickly...not upon finding out, but because when OM came into my house...he put chocolate in my mouth the same way my H would. I hated them both at that moment. Not the same thing again. I didn't want him in my house! I didnt even know who he was! Sane enough, right? Normal Affair? How about a normal affair and a crisis at the same time? Not all MLC's have to have MLC affairs!
Oh boy now I have a headache.
-
UP, normally a MLCer does not know he/she is in MLC. Even because most people don’t know about MLC. Many of us, LBS, had no idea our spouses were having a MLC. If a MLCer has never knew how a MLC looks like, they can never know they are having one. But I think they know something is wrong with them. My husband knew he was depressed, my cousin and a friend of mine knew there was something they have never felt before.
With my husband it happened the same as with you, first come the energy, then the affair with OW1. When OW1 left, he soon find new things to keep the high and it did not took longer for OW2 to be in place.
My uncle had an affair, my FIL was a philanderer but none of them ever caused the type of damage our MLCer caused. Not had they done crazy things divorce wise. All was done in a civil manner. I had never seen before the type of stuff husband is doing, even if I know lots of people who have had affairs.
Maybe you have a MLC, or MLT. Many people do and, sometimes, the crisis (and affair) of one spouse trigger a MLC and/or affair in the other spouse.
What is important, whatever the circumstances, is that we heal and learn from previous experience(s).
-
Underpressure...I am wondering why this matters so much to you?
Euphoria or irritability
Excessive talk; racing thoughts
Inflated self-esteem
Unusual energy; less need for sleep
Impulsiveness, a reckless pursuit of gratification (shopping sprees, impetuous travel, more and sometimes promiscuous sex, high-risk business investments, fast driving)
I have just goggled the symptoms of bipolar hypomania. There are many "diagnoses" that could be attributed to the symptoms that you describe including hormonal changes due to your pregnancy.
I do believe, from the research and literature that I have read that the person having a MLC would not admit that this is what is occurring. They may realize that something is wrong, but they usually will not see it as a crisis and a mid life crisis probably lasts 3-7 years and then some.
I also believe that our spouses MLC was not "triggered" by us or our marriage. It is something relating to them, way before they even knew us. You keep saying that your affair triggered his mlc. I disagree with that reasoning because their crisis is not about us or our marriages.
What is important now, today, is how you are feeling and leading your life. You have experienced several major traumas in your lifetime, and certainly these may contribute to many "symptoms"...but many people experience major trauma and that does not make it a mid life crisis.
Being raped at age 12 and not disclosing the name of the rapist could lead you to have symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder.
I am going to be really honest here, but this is just my take on things. We all learn from one another. Is it possible that you feel guilt about your affair and thus are desperately trying to attribute it to having a MLC?
I don't think our MLCers had affairs because they were not getting enough attention from the LBSer. The affair is related to their internal issues and not their partners issues. Just like everything else that they do to destroy the life that they once had....they turn away from their children, their friends, they lose their jobs, they abuse substances, they run up tremendous debt and the list goes on and on.
I know you want answers, we all do. But the answers won't be there until the time is right and if and only if they decide to share what went on within them with us. Our time now has to be spent focusing on recreating ourselves, of loving ourselves and working on issues that we also had before the marriage. It is difficult, whether it be mlc or not, it is difficult.
-
AnneJ, I also think the idea that I might have had a crisis that calmed down to a transition is very probable.
xyzcf. Your idea is interesting and I also thought of that as well. I feel remorse more so than guilt for my affair. (The guilt I feel is not associated with the affair, but rather with the desire to refuse to come to the man-cave.) Nevertheless I am haunted by the affair it in several ways, mostly I think as a reminder of that part of me that I left behind. And then also, surprisingly, out of loneliness. OM was a friend when I didn't feel I had one. The energy I felt from him was palpable and intense. It could knock me over from across the room. I felt like he was GIVING something. When I am with H, i feel I am sucked dry. Literally. The life force is drained out of me. I am not saying that my 'love' for OM was real. This is a haunting, not a real person. Yes I had those feelings at a time...But I am not going to commit them to that person. I am glad there is a reminder of it though...something telling me there is more to human relations than just this sad drama I am caught up in.
When I had the affair I did not use MLC as an excuse. Like AnneJ says, I didn't know what MLC was at the time. I did not find out about MLC until my H started ramping up his bizzare behavior and then gave me the line "I am going to start seeing someone and she wont like it if you and I are sleeping together".
Whether i found this site just before he said that or after he did... Hardly matters; I look at his behavior and mine overall at that point.
It is not even that I want to define what happened to me as "normal" or "mlc". I don't need an excuse for what happened. It felt normal for me to go through at that point...It happened. Perhaps it needed to happen. One could say that in MLC everything was perfect and there was no NEED for the affair, but that's not true either...that's not a difference. Doesn't matter if the marriage was 10 years or 20 or 30. I can't see what happened any other way, although I still wish I had done yoga instead.
So then i come back to the idea of my affair being about a character flaw. Yes, certainly my husband felt it was. He told the counselor that I was a serial offender. And that i have male friends...famous ones, he boasted, and that he generally doesnt mind my having famous male friends, because that's "cool". ??? So he meant that although it's okay with him that I have male friends other than him, he is uncomfortable with my having certain male friends, maybe if they aren't famous? and he suspects my interest in them is beyond their name-dropping value.
This is not true. I have always had more male friends than female because (and I am more and more aware of this only recently) my mother is a narcissistic verbal abuser. She has improved as I get better at boundaries. But I have really hard time with any woman getting bossy with me, or controlling. And I often, as with my SIL, allow the boundaries with women to be crossed. I compromise a lot with her. But I really really have a hard time with bossy female voices...even in yoga. So, I have always fled to the more comforting chat I had with my male friends. Most of them were musicians and artists, I was an artist and a we had a lot to talk about. Many of my best male friends have died. One contacted me from out of the blue and we struck up a very close connection involving design discussions, discussions about marriage. he has been divorced twice. Has three children. There is a strong pull in me to be very close friends with him...he talks to me! About important things! He shares his feelings with me! But there has never been anything physical. Am I in love? Well, no. I would say agape but not eros. Still, the closeness we had a few summers ago (2009) after H declared there would be NO MORE CHILDREN, was threatening to H and he asked me to stop texting with him. I did. Character-wise, I don't know what to do. I am torn. I am married. I am standing. I would like friends, but I am not looking to date or have sex. It's hard for me to not want some degree of closeness with someone. It's hard to not have closeness with H. But this is what you are for, right? I could write all day to no one and it would not be the same. The hope that someone will read and understand is fulfilling.
There were no flirtations, no intentions of betrayal. I am not a serial philanderer or anything like it. I don't even flirt openly with anyone...he has never had a concern about my behavior around other men. But yes, I did find intimacy and friendship in others when he was not there for me. And that is a flaw of character. But so is adultery. So is monster. In that same sense. Maybe someone normally doesn't steal, but if they go out and steal a car one day, they will probably end up in jail...so the MLCer has character flaws. Even if they are temporary. These are flaws deep down in the shadow that are flipping outward and taking the place of the normal character we know.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I do think I had a crisis, that we are both in crisis, even if I sought appropriate help early on and reigned in my crisis to a great extent. I did spend several months in therapy blaming my husband for my behavior. It's very hard to not do that still as when I look back I still see so much he did to hurt me, but it's not the same now. Now it's his problem and my problem is separate. I need to understand this, and it helps me to see my condition in light of MLC as then I can focus on me...i can see my path better, I can make it through the depression without the replay, without the denial. We have no one here whose spouse sees themselves as being in MLC while they are in it? But even my friend, who has all the classic symptoms of MLC, was able to answer my accusation and say "Maybe OW is a projection of my Anima".
If I am in the midst of my own crisis this causes problems for others who want to think the MLCer wont look at themselves. Except that I probably dont look at myself enough and DO blame my H...but that's how this understanding of crisis started: with H going high-energy into his affair. So that's sort of an inevitability when there are two crises.
THis is way too long. I just woke up and had to write. I think the main point is that Identity transition in midlife is normal and is important and overwhelming as adolescent identity transition. So everyone has to go through the passage...it's how much foot-dragging they do along the way that creates the level of crisis. And if this is true, roughly, then it is POSSIBLE that most midlife affairs ARE MLC affairs and should be handled that way. Not as in excuses, but the person should be seen as being in crisis and struggling with an important transition. Self-focus (and the end of replay behaviors, denial, attachment, co-dependency) are my prescription for myself, and how is that not what is recommended here for all of us?
I know I have a lot more thinking to do about this, but this is where I am today.
-
What do we see as the difference between midlife crisis affairs and just "ordinary " affairs. Sometimes it is hard to know the difference and we need reassurance that at the very least we know some of the "whys". I suspect some men can be both... cheaters that happen to also be in midlife crisis . How did you know and come to accept that his affair was a result of a midlife crisis? Does that make him any less responsible? And should knowing that, soften the destruction it has caused LBS? My sister now suspects her husband is on his way down the same path... but he cheated 23 years ago. ( and NEVER since ) So, she believes it is just "in him" to cheat , and that MLC will have nothing to do with his choice to do it again.
I disagree .. What do you all think ? ( I told her I would just be asking all my friends .. Thanks )
-
I am sure many will disagree, but an affair is an affair is an affair.
If you read enough on affairs you will see that in either case its all about the person themselves and issues they have, whether in mlc or not. Its about things lacking in themselves.
In all cases they talk about how the "immature" response to marriage problems is to seek out someone else to fill the need.
So imo there is no real difference in the affair itself or why it came about. The only thing really i can point out is the time it lasts, or that revealing it means nothing. But then that happens in a lot of normal cases too. Similarly the guilt phases are the same, rewriting history, blaming the spouse, demonizing the spouse to justify. Its all the same.
If i am totally honest, we kind of fool ourselves here into thinking it doesn't matter, indeed it does matter, A lot actually. Can you honestly say that your spouse having an affair doesnt change everything forever. The special thing you had is gone. The trust is gone, the memories remain, the respect is gone etc etc. i personally don't believe i could ever think of my h the same way now, and that is me with no evidence of a PA only EA. He crossed the line, one that cant ever be uncrossed. I think its said predominantly to make you feel better about the situation, when in reality its the ultimate betrayal that cannot truly be undone. The person you trusted with your life did that to you. Depressed or not they did it and did not care what you thought or what you felt. Forgive by all means. But forget, never, you cant it will always be there.
I am trying to be realistic about the situation. There is a whole lot of the crisis itself that needs compassion, but not this bit. This is a conscious choice they make. I will await now for everyone to disagree.
Sd
X
-
Hi Barbiedoll
I'm glad you have done this thread. If I'm honest I cannot answer whether my H is in a MLC affair or an average affair.
I found out about affair in Oct 2012 and he had been seeing her every weekend and every Easter when I thought he was going diving. He had clothes kept at her place that I had never seen before and literally led a double life with her. The affair had been ongoing at that time for six years. I think looking back I had a breakdown. I could cry for the poor soul I was then. I remember spending the whole day in my bedroom sitting on the floor and screaming for my Mamma. I kept saying Mamma come and help me. The last time I called my deceased Mother Mamma was when I was about three years old. I was so traumatised by the discovery of a six year affair that I literally lost my mind. I used to spend entire days rocking back and forth crying for my dead Mother, calling her Mamma. He never came to see me in the bedroom to try and help me and told me when I would rock back and forth endlessly for a few days to stop doing that.
His affair ended after disclosure but started up a few months later and then he left me in June 2013 for a month and then again ended it with her. Then started it up again after about a year and left me in Oct 2014. He thinks he loves her. Thing is he still has feelings for me. Whether it is love I do not know but I do know it is like an addiction with his floozy.
Sometimes I think he is not MLC and then when he comes out with nonsense like if it doesn't work out with her he wants to remarry me then I think he is crackers and it can only be MLC. I don't think I will ever decide one way or another. That is why this site helps because other people are able to see what you cannot see because they are impartial.
Sorry for rambling. A bad habit of mine.
HMT
-
I will await now for everyone to disagree.
Not gonna happen here. I think the mindset may be different for the MLCer vs someone who is just looking to cheat - but I agree with superdog, the outcome for us is the same. I don't try to kid myself that I would be able to just brush the affair under the rug, especially since he has lived with her for several years now while keeping me in divorce limbo suffering. I do think someday he will have remorse, because it's such an ugly situation he's in and won him none of what he blabbered at the beginning he was going off to attain, but sd pegged it. What made us special is gone. I honestly don't know how we would come back from that, even if he were to fully come back from all of his problems (the affair being just one aspect of this for him as a "well rounded replayer" ;D ).
-
Well, I always say if MLC is real than my husband is the poster boy. So he could have had an affair, and I would have never known, or he could have "fallen out of love" and left me. It was ALL the other weird behaviors, all in a short time, that makes this different.
Why after almost 30 years did he change companies for less money and more work?
Why did he change how he dresses?
Tanning, jewelry, dyeing hair, soul patch, libido pills, mega-men vitamins by the handful, protein drinks, nervous twitch, enormous weight gain, a fake accent :o, joining band and singing teen pop songs, hiding from friends, will not even drive by house, 2 minute bomb drop, girl half his age with major issues, etc etc etc....
If he just fell out of love, why can't he look at me? Why can't he talk to me? Why does he avoid people that know me?
His behaviors are so out of character. Could I have been fooled for 30 years? I don't think so.
-
Hi nah
I would say there is no doubt your H is in MLC.
Take care
HMT
-
Thank you . I have not been "sure about anything " in my life, to have a concrete opinion all of my own . I have been close to 2 years in utter and absolute confusion. i have been easily swayed by opinions and words of others and not able to cement my own beliefs and stand strong in them. I am learning.. still . I agree with so many of your views . I absolutely agree that an affair is an affair is an affair . But in a different way than you. I believe an affair .. whether it be a casinova putting notches in his belt, a sex addict, a thrill seeker , a nacissist , an immature selfish individual or a man in an identity crisis .. it all has the same catastophic injury to the spouse . I do not ( in only my opinion ) see how the trauma can be any less or anymore . It is the most deadly offence of consequences that cannot even be measured .. I know this well. However , having said that , here is the very 1st " thing or opinion" that I have been able to believe in or know to be true 100% . I have enough confidence (finally ) to defend this belief and not be swayed. I do not believe my husband would have involved himself in an affair ... unless he was mentally incapacitated, sufferring some type of disintegration or breakdown. I do accept and believe this as a fact in my marriage and it was a 2 year struggle to finally land on some type of solid footing. I believe that a man that has shown a long long history of responsibility , committment and faithfullness (35 years ) .. has encounterred a very significant internal crisis . I lived it, I saw it up close, I have tried to breathe in and out thru it , .. I saw a look in his eyes and in his face that I never recognized after 35 years of looking at him. He was gone. But.. and this is a big but.. for me at this stage of recovering from his crisis , it softens NOTHING . I suffer dramatically from the deepest loss of trust I have ever experienced , loss of personal identity and a loss of sexual confidence that is beyond any words can describe. So , I agree with many of your views . ALL I have managed , so far in my journey is to absolutely feel confident that my husband had a life alterring crisis in his life . He is not out for notches , he is not a casinova or sex addict. etc. That alone is a HUGE step for me and makes me feel like Superdog.. I do thank you for your insightfull words. I have only very very recently been able to feel I just might live afterall. it changes nothing else.. there is no such thing as a `get out of jail free card `because you had an affair while you were in a crisis. I still have much work to do... and I appreciate the input and I most surely admire your ability to stand in your belief while waiting `for everyone to tell you you are wrong `. I love that ! And I am learning to do the same.. very very slowly. . Thank you ... I am going to just keep readinf as this is very worthwhile discussion to me .
-
I think we're supposed to have an easier time choking it down because they are "dead inside" and therefore lack impulse control? Is that right?
I guess I have a question from any who have reconciled: how do they feel about the OP now? I read on a different site where the infidelity was less likely result of MLC that once the screwing around was done and the cheater realized how bad they'd screwed up, that they often felt hatred or contempt for their AP.
I have zero practical real life experience to draw on, I never thought it'd be relevant, either >:(
Sorry if I come off grumpy. I am.
-
Actually, right or wrong, I do have an easier time "choking it down". Does it hurt?, Sure it hurts like Hell, but I know there is nothing, not one thing I could have done differently to prevent him from leaving and destroying our family. That's how I am able to walk through life with my head held high. I did nothing wrong.
Divorce is common, most people don't raise an eyebrow. Most people however, do have a "normal" divorce, here's the difference in my eyes...
Shortly after BD, a coworker understood what I was going through, I mean he went through a divorce also, so he understood. Then I asked his details. Well, he didn't really want to marry her, she was pregnant so they gave it a try. They were married for 4/5 years and she started to cheat on him. Before she left, they always fought, never did things together, didn't have much in common, no common friends, he tried for the kids, she didn't want to try.
NOT THE SAME.
For over 25 years we did do things together, we loved being together, we were best friends and partners in every way, he wrote me a card after 25 years how we were not like most couples, when he says he loves me it comes from deep inside, blah blah blah.
The reason he left me besides of course ilybinilwy? "I don't know I guess I'm f*cked up in the head", yep, that's the reason he gave after 28+ years.
There is a difference.
-
Nah.. I am with you. I do believe 100 % that there is a difference.. just. exactly like your example. ( it changes nothing about the trauma of the affair.. NOTHING. ) . The counsellor has many times told me " He had the blue print of trauma inside of who he is and would have had a crisis REGARDLESS of who he was married to... It had NOTHING to do with you ". I finally accept that this is true. I do believe there is a unique difference between midlife crisis affairs and all the other types. Thanks..
-
Sorry if I gave offense, Nah, I didn't mean to.
Up until 2 months ago I had complete and total trust and faith in him and in us as a couple and I still get this sick, watery feeling in the pit of my stomach thinking about it. I guess I haven't totally let go of the idea that it's my fault somehow, even though I know objectively that it isn't.
It's going to be hard to break the habit of taking responsibility for everyone's everything, I've been doing that for a long, long time.
-
Oh no, McT, you didn't offend me. Sorry if I sounded angry, it's not you, it's the situation.
I love this forum b/c people on here get it. Divorce is common, Midlife transition is common, whatever our spouses are going through, is not as common.
-
MsT .. I have often said that is a reality camera crew followed me around for the past 2 years and actually caught on camera the utter wreckage of lives... no one would ever cheat again. NEVER will i just " swallow it down " ... even if I wanted to with my entire heart and saul, it is not possible. To answer your question. " how do men feel about the other womwn after it is over ? ". I have asked my husband this question.. not alot , but I have asked. These are some of his responses.
- she is obviously crazy (?)
she was looking to be you ( meaning me ,, the wife) with the big mansion, great vacations etc-
-i feel " nothing " about her . I never think about her ever.
- i feel disgusted with my involvement with her
-i feel she used me as possible "sugar daddy" .. as I was her 3rd married man
- emotionally ? I just feel "nothing " .. no emotion comes to the surface .. zero.
-
Hi Barbiedoll
Oh I long for the day when my H says to me those words about his OW. She too wants my life. She is the only person in all my years on this Earth that I hate.
-
Hi all,
since I found out that my H switched from OW#1 into OW#2 in just a few weeks, I think it's differs. An affair is an affair is an affair YES but, if you can "switch" your "love" from one person to an OW to another OW in weeks, how can it be anything else but meeting a "need" of some sort. For me it screams desperation, codependent maybe on both parts and all this stuff about going public so fast (In my case the second OW put out the relation on FB (OW#1 and OW#2 are close friend or might I say maybe was close friends) and H had not spoke a word about this to his kids, relatives etc. And she does not think this is strange behavior by herself) Maybe what I'm trying to say is that there is a different between a affair and a relationship. An affair is more about what you gain from the other person than what you put in. A relationship is giving and getting. I think it's harder to walk away from a relationship/Marriage much more guilt/shame than when you walk out from an affair, you just leave (sometime leaving getting back to leave again multiple times). Someone called "law professor" here got a good explanation from her friend about the OW and the affair. So my answer, affairs does not have the glue, "mlc persons" are just empty shells.
Good question, lets keep the discussion flowing on this subject!
-
For over 25 years we did do things together, we loved being together, we were best friends and partners in every way
Change this to 36 years and it describes my wife and I. Then a couple of years ago my wife told my daughters she didn't feel like she had accomplished anything with her life. Last winter / early spring she was severely depressed, a couple of months later she tells me she's having an affair, she has a right to be happy, she doesn't know who she is or what she wants from life (told the same thing to our oldest daughter). I still often wonder what happened even though I know all about MLC. But, as nah said,
NOT THE SAME.
The pain and feelings of betrayal. Horrible because it's so totally unexpected. But the worst thing is the confusion. Trying to make sense of it all when it seems so senseless. I talk with my wife's sister and she still just shakes her head and says she doesn't understand. And that's another thing. IF this were a typical affair/ breakup she would have her supporters and I would have mine. Everyone supports me.
I wish it were a typical affair. Those resolve quickly. MLC takes forever.
-
Hi barbiedoll
This is a really interesting discussion. Not a day passes where I internally battle with the notion that I am kidding myself about my H. Don't couples split all the time??? But I read the articles and I read the many stories and the pattern of behavior is unbelieveable. Sometimes I don't need a crystal ball as I know what the next step is!
All the while my H of 21years together thinks everyone is OK with what he is doing, the kids are fine that he is destroying our family unit, that he is cool and that his fantasy affair (Facebook friend in San Fran) will give him the happiness he is seeking and he thinks he is no longer depressed.
As nah says it's all the things that don't make sense which keep me believing that this is a crisis and one day h will see this for himself.
SC
-
I agree with everyone which I guess makes me a spineless jellyfish.
1. an affair hurts. Deeply. Devastatingly. No difference to the betrayed partner. If the betraying partner is not a sociopath or has a chronic personality disorder eg Diagnosed NPD or SA, they have damaged their own Psyche, their soul, their core. So they hurt deeply too.
2. No get out of jail free card. Abso-bloody-lutely. Sooner or later mirror work has to be done by WS or M is done.
3. The decisions made to have the affair show depression confusion etc. Tick. Character of Betraying partner is shown when they are capable of repair and do the necessary work to make the repairs. This is when I think, the Betrayed spouse can decide whether to have them back in their lives as a safe loving partner no matter what the couples history is or the length of the relationship. Life is too short to live with an unsafe unhealthy partner. It further destroys our own souls as betrayed partners.
4. The confusion is not a typical affair type confusion. Major time slippage and regression to childlike/teen like emotional impulses. Loss of memory of major life events Ummmm huh??
5. They have so many distractions or OWs. Umm maybe they have so many "soulmates" because their souls are shattered into so many pieces, they try to pick up whatever distraction to see if that "IS" a piece they can recognise as part of their identity.
When they were whole and healthy, we were whole and healthy and could see more than just traits that they/we sought in a life partner, we sought a person made up of good bad enchanting annoying. When they break, they choose someone who is also broken because they can only see with that piece of broken soul they hold in their hands at that moment.
When the LBS becomes whole again, we see with our whole souls again, that's when we are able to healthily decide whether to pick up the broken pieces of our WS with them. It would be ideal that they too have done the work to piece themselves back but more often than not, reconciliation or reconnection is tough, really painful because the MLCer comes back with sharp edges of a broken soul.
My 0.02
-
I forgot to mention that the thing that makes me wonder about this being an MLC is that my wife still seems to care about me and doesn't seem to want to hurt me which is so unlike so many of the monstering MLCers I've read about.
-
An affair is an affair regardless of mlc or not. Same betryal, same emotions. I think mlc complicates it further and causes it to maybe prolong itself but in the end it's the same.
-
Difference is simple. Regular cheaters have serious issues, in majority cases they are personality disordered people which come along with a lot other psychological issues. Those people learn little or nothing from own mistakes, because they cannot learn it. So, those kind of spouses are spotted early in marriage and those marriages fall apart in 3 to max 7 years.
Personal crisis, specially MLC is sudden change in personality to the opposite what Your spouse was. Total meltdown. And yes, after 20 and more years of marriage.
-
I forgot to mention that the thing that makes me wonder about this being an MLC is that my wife still seems to care about me and doesn't seem to want to hurt me which is so unlike so many of the monstering MLCers I've read about.
MBIB, if you read my thread I often call my husband, Mr. MLC, his antics are getting to be legendary on this site...lol
I have had very little monster. Oh yes, he has abused, betrayed, humiliated, abandoned me but with guilt, shame and basically hiding. He has never said anything bad about me, just things like I make him feel guilty, or I'm making people treat him like $h!te. His reasons for leaving to others are things like "we're not on the same page", or "we decided together that we were not meant to be" (ummm...I missed that conversation,. ::) )
He has gone as far as to say that I was a great wife and mother and we have many great memories but he had to leave b/c, "I don't know, I guess I'm f*cked up in the head".
-
just to put my take on this my h had an affair in 1992 and we separated for a year and got back together , I know that this time it was differnent to the "affair " he had then when he dropped the bomb on me this time I was totally shocked and NEVER did I think he would do that again , i llike Barbiedolls sister know he never did anything in the 20 years we were back together and I never thought i would see myself in this position
in 1992 he never wanted to leave , never wanted a divorce never introduced ow to his parents
fast forward to BD he left me the note as he always did before he went to work went on holiday etc teling me how much he loved me and couldnt wait to get back to me as he hated being apart for a week( he was going on holiday with our friend as he did for the last 4 years) he went on 6 December 2011 came back on dec 15 2011 (I could tell something was wrong stragingt away in his demenaor and otther things )
by 27 January 2012 he turned into someone I didnt recognise informed me he had to do this and wanted a divorce ??? he took ow to his mothers bedside in hospital ? he did lots of other things that he would never have done .
I believe this is mlc and that his "affair" was just an affair (if that makes sense because belived me i was devistated when he did it the first time but I forgave him and we had 19 -20 really happy years together till BD.
dont know if that answers the question or not but it helped to write it down .
thanks Barbie doll for thread discussion x
-
MsT .. I have often said that is a reality camera crew followed me around for the past 2 years and actually caught on camera the utter wreckage of lives... no one would ever cheat again. NEVER will i just " swallow it down " ... even if I wanted to with my entire heart and saul, it is not possible. To answer your question. " how do men feel about the other womwn after it is over ? ". I have asked my husband this question.. not alot , but I have asked. These are some of his responses.
- she is obviously crazy (?)
she was looking to be you ( meaning me ,, the wife) with the big mansion, great vacations etc-
-i feel " nothing " about her . I never think about her ever.
- i feel disgusted with my involvement with her
-i feel she used me as possible "sugar daddy" .. as I was her 3rd married man
- emotionally ? I just feel "nothing " .. no emotion comes to the surface .. zero.
I want to go back to this b/c Barbie, this one post has given me more joy than anything I have read about MLC yet. I want to read it again and again. It is what we all want to hear, whether I take him back or not, I want to hear these words. Thank you for posting.
-
MsT .. I have often said that is a reality camera crew followed me around for the past 2 years and actually caught on camera the utter wreckage of lives... no one would ever cheat again. NEVER will i just " swallow it down " ... even if I wanted to with my entire heart and saul, it is not possible. To answer your question. " how do men feel about the other womwn after it is over ? ". I have asked my husband this question.. not alot , but I have asked. These are some of his responses.
- she is obviously crazy (?)
she was looking to be you ( meaning me ,, the wife) with the big mansion, great vacations etc-
-i feel " nothing " about her . I never think about her ever.
- i feel disgusted with my involvement with her
-i feel she used me as possible "sugar daddy" .. as I was her 3rd married man
- emotionally ? I just feel "nothing " .. no emotion comes to the surface .. zero.
The reason I ask is that he was always so loyal and faithful (until he wasn't) and I'm worried that in some twisted way he will transfer that loyalty and faithfulness to her and get married and live happily ever after. I guess that's a normal fear for LBS?
This makes me feel better, thanks :)
My fear is that, aside from going after a taken man, mine doesn't really appear to be affair down as much as some others I've read about. Although up until a few months ago, he had nothing nice to say about her and even told me stories about her leading guys on and then acting innocent when they started to respond to her advances, and didn't seem to have respect for her. Now she "is such and nice person, really misunderstood."
Difference is simple. Regular cheaters have serious issues, in majority cases they are personality disordered people which come along with a lot other psychological issues. Those people learn little or nothing from own mistakes, because they cannot learn it. So, those kind of spouses are spotted early in marriage and those marriages fall apart in 3 to max 7 years.
Personal crisis, specially MLC is sudden change in personality to the opposite what Your spouse was. Total meltdown. And yes, after 20 and more years of marriage.
This is very logical, I agree.
-
Difference is simple. Regular cheaters have serious issues, in majority cases they are personality disordered people which come along with a lot other psychological issues. Those people learn little or nothing from own mistakes, because they cannot learn it. So, those kind of spouses are spotted early in marriage and those marriages fall apart in 3 to max 7 years.
Personal crisis, specially MLC is sudden change in personality to the opposite what Your spouse was. Total meltdown. And yes, after 20 and more years of marriage.
I don't post here often, because I always feel like the voice of dissent, and here I go again, but Albatross, this is dangerous and judgmental thinking. "Regular cheaters" have as many reasons for cheating as there are cheaters and not all of them have any more serious issues than MLCers. I would argue a "regular cheater" who is struggling to bring home the bacon, be a loving nurturing father and has a woman who is no longer a wife, but a mother, uninterested in sex, who has a fling on the side, but is trying his best to hold his family together is a LOT less PDed than some of the spouses around here. I think MLC is a lifetime of managed PD finally in bloom...
I have known lots of "regular cheaters," men and women. And I find most of them to have been situational and all I could forgive more easily than my H. I was intrigued when I saw this thread because I have been wondering about something similar for a while... exH had a fling very early in our M. He was sorry, a bit shaken up, I was pissed, but I forgave him. And I would never be one to say he NEVER did it again over the next 20 years, but I don't think he did. He could have, I don't know, he traveled and had opportunity, and I never would have suspected or looked--I didn't know about OW, either. But, I agree, an affair is an affair, is an affair. It is not the action, it is the reason for the action that makes it an MLC affair. But it would still be hard to know the difference, "regular cheaters" can also have MLCs and have different affairs.
We seek relationships of ALL kinds to meet needs, for love, friendship, companionship, drama, personal support, status, whatever, there are lots of reasons we have people in our lives. And even on these boards, we might define affairs differently, is an EA as bad or worse than a PA? Is a work spouse that your H tells your most intimate marriage details more dangerous to your M than a woman he has sex with and never talks to? And is any of those worse than the group of young partiers your H has started hanging with that he insists he is going to ________ with every weekend?
An affair is something that threatens your M, whether it's a car, a running habit, a woman, a job, or I would even argue, a child--many women have children for selfish reasons they would often deny. The reason for seeking it differs for every person. MLCers are in a life transition, trying to differentiate and establish a true sense of self they still have not achieved. Most of them will grasp at any twig that looks like it might hold them, or that they think will prove them strong. "Regular cheaters" are looking for something for themselves, MLCers are looking for themselves. And that's the difference, regular cheaters find what they need in affairs, and often that affair allows them to KEEP their M--by finding something their spouse is unable or unwilling to give they can keep their other life. MLCers seek to replace--their affair becomes them--because they can't find themselves in their other life.
And so, this leads me to the question I have been ruminating over, but I think I might ask it on another thread, so as not to hijack this one...
-
MsT .. I have often said that is a reality camera crew followed me around for the past 2 years and actually caught on camera the utter wreckage of lives... no one would ever cheat again. NEVER will i just " swallow it down " ... even if I wanted to with my entire heart and saul, it is not possible. To answer your question. " how do men feel about the other womwn after it is over ? ". I have asked my husband this question.. not alot , but I have asked. These are some of his responses.
- she is obviously crazy (?)
she was looking to be you ( meaning me ,, the wife) with the big mansion, great vacations etc-
-i feel " nothing " about her . I never think about her ever.
- i feel disgusted with my involvement with her
-i feel she used me as possible "sugar daddy" .. as I was her 3rd married man
- emotionally ? I just feel "nothing " .. no emotion comes to the surface .. zero.
somehow I deleted half my last post, so let me try again :)
This makes me feel better, because this OP in my situation is someone he actively disliked up until a few months ago, he told me himself that she leads guys on and then plays the innocent act when they start to respond, and cries sexual harassment.
On the other hand, besides going after a taken man and trying to get male attention for all the wrong reasons, she's not ugly, she's educated, makes a lot of money, and has plenty of free time to party with other 20somethings what with not having kids or a mortgage or anything, so it doesn't really feel like affair down, it feels like traded up for newer model. Also, even though I know I shouldn't have any expectations of him at all, especially based on his past behavior, up until he wasn't, he was very loyal and faithful so I am afraid he will attach that loyalty and faithfulness to her and feel obligated to stick with her, get married, and live happily ever after. I guess this is normal fear for LBS?
-
An affair is an affair regardless of mlc or not. Same betryal, same emotions. I think mlc complicates it further and causes it to maybe prolong itself but in the end it's the same.
Yes an affair is an affair, no matter what the reason, it hurts like Hell. We can't help ourselves but focus on the affair b/c it's humiliating, it makes us question our self worth, our lives, as if everything we have ever known was all a lie.
For me, the real focus is not the affair (she is and always will be nothing to me) it's his leaving. Why did he leave? That's where MLC comes in for me. Maybe I'm in denial, maybe I'm just making excuses, but how does a man who basically worshiped me for 25+ years just turn away? The girl was just a way for him to exit, it's not about the sex. Hey, I have a boyfriend, I'm getting just as much, probably more b/c nobody on this side needs Viagra or libido pills. I know many LBSers on here focus on the sex, I really believe the sex is just a side dish.
So there can be affairs, such as ICAWC, described, yes it hurt but that was a "normal" affair. MLC is more, it's total destruction of a family, total destruction of the MLCer and everybody that loves him. My husband didn't get drunk and have a flirtation that got out of hand, he systematically destroyed everything that was important to him for the last 30 years. His career, his family, his (former) friends, his integrity, the way he presents himself to the outside world....systematically destroying each one.
One time, just one time, he looked up at me when we were discussing finances and blurted out, "You must hate me", I wasn't ready for it and just responded, "No, I forgive you for me b/c I can't live my life being bitter all the time". I know though, he really wasn't worried about me, he hates himself. I believe this as much as I believe that I'm sitting here right now.
-
I have been "sitting on the sidelines" for a while reading several threads...For me-I am starting to doubt MLC. I wonder if I had it all wrong, and hang out here in the HOPES that I was right and it IS MLC if nothing more than for an apology some day.
As it applies to the topic at hand-me and wife began our R with infidelity. How naive was I-I thought our r was special, unique, and that the normal rules didn't apply to us. What a fool I was. I guess its just is her nature and "who she is", even though she hasn't done it in 20+ years...Once a cheater, always a cheater?!!?!?! I just don't know any more...
-T
-
T-
If she went 20+ years w/o cheating then your marriage was not a lie and what you had was special. Something happened to her and you know this to be true. Sorry it hurts so damn much. You are a good man, and if not your wife, then someone else when you are ready will scoop you up and she will be kicking herself. You will decide how this story ends.
-
For me, the real focus is not the affair (she is and always will be nothing to me) it's his leaving. Why did he leave? That's where MLC comes in for me. Maybe I'm in denial, maybe I'm just making excuses, but how does a man who basically worshiped me for 25+ years just turn away?
So there can be affairs, such as ICAWC, described, yes it hurt but that was a "normal" affair. MLC is more, it's total destruction of a family, total destruction of the MLCer and everybody that loves him. My husband didn't get drunk and have a flirtation that got out of hand, he systematically destroyed everything that was important to him for the last 30 years. His career, his family, his (former) friends, his integrity, the way he presents himself to the outside world....systematically destroying each one
the above is exactly the same questions I have asked myself my h adored and worshipped me and would have done anything to protect me from everything no one would hurt me , he said I was a lovely person and I was always there for everyone including him
it still makes me wonder "why" and why is he dreaming of me and sending it on twitter to our son telling him he dreamt my leg was in plaster, he hopes i am ok? we have had no contact now for 6 weeks that hurts too after such a large touch and go over christmas and new year. but i digress sorry x
-
I agree with I can.
The difference, as I see it, is a regular affair isn't usually something that the spouse leaves their family over. Most love their spouse, but for what ever reason they just have a fling. Probably exciting but I bet most of them would never say they are in love with their affair partner.
In MLC, they think they are in love, found their soul mate and want out of the marriage. They move heaven and earth to be with ow/om.
To me they are 2 different things. Same amount of pain and destruction, but I think an MLC affair would be worse because they feel they are "in love."
-
sorry another thing that is hard to believe is that with the mlc affair he said when ow moved up here and he had been seeng her for 2 years and she "gave up everything to be here???" that he had made a COMMITMENT now , wasnt our marraige a commitment and a vow to love each other till death us to part not to commit adultery and would protect each other
I still now want to say to him you were already in a comimitment how can you just walk away and leave your family your son your home and leave us with nothing spending thousands on ow ??
grr sorry I am angry now .
-
he said when ow moved up here and he had been seeng her for 2 years and she "gave up everything to be here???" that he had made a COMMITMENT now ,
I bet those aren't even his words, sounds like it it coming from an expert emotional blackmailer.
Bingo...another aspect of the different kind of affairs. Why do most MLCers go for the same "type", the typical affair down? If they were "in love" then they wouldn't have to manipulate each other. That's why the same story happens again and again, we read about it all the time. Emotionally normal people do not get themselves into a mess like this.
-
sorry another thing that is hard to believe is that with the mlc affair he said when ow moved up here and he had been seeng her for 2 years and she "gave up everything to be here???" that he had made a COMMITMENT now , wasnt our marraige a commitment and a vow to love each other till death us to part not to commit adultery and would protect each other
I still now want to say to him you were already in a comimitment how can you just walk away and leave your family your son your home and leave us with nothing spending thousands on ow ??
grr sorry I am angry now .
Because his thinking is only and I mean only about him.
-
Difference is simple. Regular cheaters have serious issues, in majority cases they are personality disordered people which come along with a lot other psychological issues. Those people learn little or nothing from own mistakes, because they cannot learn it. So, those kind of spouses are spotted early in marriage and those marriages fall apart in 3 to max 7 years.
Personal crisis, specially MLC is sudden change in personality to the opposite what Your spouse was. Total meltdown. And yes, after 20 and more years of marriage.
I don't think that "those kind of spouses are spotted early in marriage" - maybe they should have been spotted but I know for me that I tolerated/ignored a lot of red flags because they were 'normal' behavior to me. My parents and H shared a lot of the same behavior - I went from one not-so-healthy dynamic to another one without knowing it.
I think MLC is a lifetime of managed PD finally in bloom...
LL, this sums it up perfectly for me!
-
Woe! lots to be said about this topic. For me , it was the absolute haunting of needing to know WHY? WHY WHY WHY. ? Never would it leave me alone and I could not see any motion forward without this answer . And it needed to be something I could understand and validate . To me, he appeared to be seeking some kind of compassion from me for this terrible mental breakdown he had. I do not need to tell you... compassion was not even on the list and I was enraged. It almost felt ( at times) that we were competing to see who had more pain. I just needed to know in my heart and soul WHY this happened. So, I have googled, read every book, researched , listened etc etc... And I am convinced and will not be unconvinced ( going back and forth is hell ) When you read about all the different types of affairs ( serial cheaters, exit affairs, sex addicts , thrill seekers and on and on ) .. he never fit into any of those catagories in the 35 years I have been with him . What he did do is .... told me he never loved me and wanted out, he was in a deep rage and depression, he slept when he was not blaming, he struggled to explain the unexplainable, he never had anything on his face but a deep furrowed gimace, he was restless to the extreme, he was impatient . He could not sleep. His mood swings were so extreme i still afraid of him. He would be kind and then be stabbingly cruel. He could care less if I sobbed up a lung. He was incredibly arrogant. He was so forgetfull he could not do his job and lashed out at co workers and endlessly hated them. He felt " no one used his actual skills " in the workplace. He was secretive and dismissive. He quit an extremely EXTREMELY high paying job ( unspeakable ) , he looked for apartments to find out where he "belonged", he reminicsed endlessly. He lied. His grandchildren got on his nerves so bad .. he physically grabbed them. He would not listen to anything or anyone. He simply walked away from conversations. He asked odd questions : " do you think there is something wrong with me ?" and `do you think I am selfish`. He felt controlled and smotherred. He was unbotherred and did not see or respond AT ALL to anyones pain. He refused advise. He was trying to crawl out of his own skin. He got close.. emotional.. and pulled away just as quickly. He was avoidant. He was mean to his children and stated to tell them of his plan to leave . He thought it was all normal `people grow apart... no need for dramatics. He was sufferring , there is no question. He was having an affair with the time of women he has spent decades trying `not to raise`. I could go on... but you all know how it goes. All of this , plus hours and thousands on therapists ... I do believe he just disintigrated and was powerless. I just needed to know WHY. I remember asking the therapist .. `I said , Ì have to know why É`. She looked at me and said `I think we know why`. He was a man coming apart , undone, unravelled from so many issues that he managed to ignore , avoid etc from a very young age. It had nothing to do with you`. I now know why.. and can feel acceptance that I could never feel before. I am OKAY with the `Why`now. That has taken 15 months. It diminishes my pain of his affair .. maybe .. just maybe 1 % . I am convinced a midlife crisis affair happens for reasons very different than other `types`of affairs. A `thrill seeker or sex addict etc`does not fold up his entire life . I am convinced finally. My husband and I have talked this subject to death...
-
Agree it's a lifetime of pd finally bloomed. Emotional distance has allowed me to evaluate my xw for what she really is. Love was blind in my case. Unlike many of u I can't say she was always a great spouse or mother. mlc affair is just a last ditch effort of self medicatin... I think that's what separates it... A new drug for the addict.
-
Woe! lots to be said about this topic. For me , it was the absolute haunting of needing to know WHY? WHY WHY WHY. ? Never would it leave me alone and I could not see any motion forward without this answer . And it needed to be something I could understand and validate . To me, he appeared to be seeking some kind of compassion from me for this terrible mental breakdown he had. I do not need to tell you... compassion was not even on the list and I was enraged. It almost felt ( at times) that we were competing to see who had more pain. I just needed to know in my heart and soul WHY this happened. So, I have googled, read every book, researched , listened etc etc... And I am convinced and will not be unconvinced ( going back and forth is hell ) When you read about all the different types of affairs ( serial cheaters, exit affairs, sex addicts , thrill seekers and on and on ) .. he never fit into any of those catagories in the 35 years I have been with him . What he did do is .... told me he never loved me and wanted out, he was in a deep rage and depression, he slept when he was not blaming, he struggled to explain the unexplainable, he never had anything on his face but a deep furrowed gimace, he was restless to the extreme, he was impatient . He could not sleep. His mood swings were so extreme i still afraid of him. He would be kind and then be stabbingly cruel. He could care less if I sobbed up a lung. He was incredibly arrogant. He was so forgetfull he could not do his job and lashed out at co workers and endlessly hated them. He felt " no one used his actual skills " in the workplace. He was secretive and dismissive. He quit an extremely EXTREMELY high paying job ( unspeakable ) , he looked for apartments to find out where he "belonged", he reminicsed endlessly. He lied. His grandchildren got on his nerves so bad .. he physically grabbed them. He would not listen to anything or anyone. He simply walked away from conversations. He asked odd questions : " do you think there is something wrong with me ?" and `do you think I am selfish`. He felt controlled and smotherred. He was unbotherred and did not see or respond AT ALL to anyones pain. He refused advise. He was trying to crawl out of his own skin. He got close.. emotional.. and pulled away just as quickly. He was avoidant. He was mean to his children and stated to tell them of his plan to leave . He thought it was all normal `people grow apart... no need for dramatics. He was sufferring , there is no question. He was having an affair with the time of women he has spent decades trying `not to raise`. I could go on... but you all know how it goes. All of this , plus hours and thousands on therapists ... I do believe he just disintigrated and was powerless. I just needed to know WHY. I remember asking the therapist .. `I said , Ì have to know why É`. She looked at me and said `I think we know why`. He was a man coming apart , undone, unravelled from so many issues that he managed to ignore , avoid etc from a very young age. It had nothing to do with you`. I now know why.. and can feel acceptance that I could never feel before. I am OKAY with the `Why`now. That has taken 15 months. It diminishes my pain of his affair .. maybe .. just maybe 1 % . I am convinced a midlife crisis affair happens for reasons very different than other `types`of affairs. A `thrill seeker or sex addict etc`does not fold up his entire life . I am convinced finally. My husband and I have talked this subject to death...
Thank you for that post, Barbiedoll. I am in one of those moods where I nearly convince myself that maybe my husband is right but that sounds a great deal like him.
-
Science said that PD is formed in early adulthood. Also as PD people become older their PD symptoms decline. Most of them become normal in middle age. PD people are whole life in crisis, they do not suddenly change 180 degree of personality after more then 20 years in marriage.
-
Bbdoll- I haven't read your whole story but have read some of it and know you are now working on your marriage together, right?
My question is if it feels worse now that he's out of the fog and more like a human being again?
I know that I have been attempting not to remove myself from the path of destruction by not talking to mine, and today, after not having seen or talked to him in a bit, I am so raging mad that he would dare do this to me that I can't decide if I want to physically assault him or vomit forever. But when he's here with the restlessness and rage and furrowed grimace, looking so sickly, the rage kind of dissipates because he so obviously has no idea what he's doing.
I haven't really had a lot of time to process this yet, so this thread is really helping me a lot, btw, so thank you :)
-
Science said that PD is formed in early adulthood. Also as PD people become older their PD symptoms decline. Most of them become normal in middle age. PD people are whole life in crisis, they do not suddenly change 180 degree of personality after more then 20 years in marriage.
I have an undergrad major in cognitive science, but I have studied psychology, as a lay person, my whole life, and most of my best friends are practicing PhD psychologists, or counselors, and I work in the field. I admit I am not an expert, but I think you are wrong. Personality disorders are very difficult to diagnose. They begin in childhood as maladaptive behaviors, usually born of dysfunctional family dynamics. And usually they do not manifest until early adulthood, but, often, not until midlife. In general, it takes a crisis of some sort to throw the person's life into chaos. Schizoids are often diagnosed in very early adulthood when they have to deal with relationships, jobs, and the quarter-life crises. Less severe PDs, like BPD and narcs often make it through that drama only to decompensate at midlife when their previous coping strategies stop working--things like attention and growth and success start declining and kids getting older cause multiple stressors to emerge.
And that is why, in many people, MLC IS a true manifestation of a mild PD that had lain in wait for decades. I knew my H had narc parents, we talked about it. While it never occurred to me that he could be one, my two best friends, practicing PhD psychologists KNEW and didn't tell me until he left. I see it now, and he is not a pathological, seriously diagnosable narc, but he is definitely higher on the PD spectrum than I might have preferred. When I look around at the MLCers I know IRL, ALL of them have serious issues, most of them are trying to self-medicate, but I think for you to divorce MLC from PD in most cases would be an error. Just MHO, and like I said, I am not an expert...
-
There You go:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074477/
;)
-
There You go:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074477/
;)
This article supports exactly what I said. It is a very thorough literature review of the LACK of diagnostics for PD in midlife and beyond. Most of our psychology is based on college-age women--the data, the diagnostics... What this article says is that it isn't even possible to place someone on the PD spectrum after young adulthood because the indicators do not match the lifestyle of someone middle-aged, and definitely not someone elderly. The example of the narc 90yo is classic. But yet she does not meet the DSM classification because she is not an adolescent. Read it again, it talks about how the dysfunctions and life disturbances associated with PDs are VERY evident for older people, but the diagnosis is not made. It is not that they don't exist, but that we no longer acknowledge them. It is like depression in men, as Real and others discuss, men do not fit the DSM description of depressed, so we overlook it, and call it "being male."
-
Agree w Lisa 100%. Stress and poor coping mechanisms bring to the surface what was always just beneath. I don't think ALL MLC is pd driven. I do believe my xw fits the pd mold. Not just from what I've seen since bd... Understanding pd makes sense of the last 19 years of my life. It was always there in her... Stress of mlc or whatever this brought it to the forefront for her.
-
It's a fascinating topic. Should put in my two bits, just an observation. While my H had a family history of PD (MIL and FIL, quite definitely narc and co-dependent passive aggressive, great 2-for-1 combo), i think that simply became a learned coping mechanism in time of greatest stress. After BD it looked like he'd suddenly acquired NPD (I was wondering what the hell did I miss, in 18 years of marriage??! And I'm a doc, used to work as a counsellor! was I blind?!). But now as some years later H slowly emerges, I don't see the narc diagnosis in him anymore. Which means it wasn't really a PD. It was MLC masquerading as a PD. Dissipating as the MLC dissipates. Guess I wasn't blind, just unlucky.
-
osb, great observation. I too wonder what exH will be like on the other side. I read an article once that said, in short that MLC is a "narcissistic temper tantrum" and while not all MLCers are or will be narcs before or after the crisis, they sure are while in it. My exH was the same way, PD can be learned dysfunction that gets internalized. We all have some maladaptive coping mechanisms, none of us are completely mentally healthy and whole. But I think some people in MLC go "all the way" and never come back, and others simply slide into a period of serious maladjustment. I do agree that MLC is a phase, but I do not believe that everyone survives it and comes out better--I know too many men IRL who did not--too many... It's like cancer, with all it's varied outcomes...
And let's be real here, psychology is NOT science, and never will be. There will never be a day when you can walk into a doctor's office, take a blood test and get a diagnosis and prescription for your BPD. There are so many factors, so many variables and too many unknowns when dealing with people--the bottom line of which is in order to get better, no matter what ails you, you have to WANT to, and a lot of people really don't, and there is no curing that with science or medicine. Not until we all become machines--Pretties is possible, but not a good thing. Love and light, ll
-
I'm curious to know how much hormones play into this. If a man has low T a lot of what I've read says....disorieted, confused, low self-imagine, etc. A feeling of not being well, metally.
Any thoughts?
-
When my husband returned.. he ended up in hospital. He came to me in panic, grief and shock and kept saying " look what I have done , look what I have done.. you have to help me , please help me ". He was having a heart attack ( i thought ) and was on his knees holding his chest in the snow. In hospital ( and several more hospital visits ) he agreed to every test under the sun. His testosterone levels were normal. Hormone testing is a little harder to do as they can fluctuate dramatically from morning to night . The doctor took him off cholesterol medication. He said there is a very very small number of people that have experienced severe agression and personality changes on that medication. The doctor ran every possible test that might be contributing to his behavior . What they did find inadvertantly ...kidney cancer. My husband will undergo surgery on the 25th . Some people say.. " maybe that was affecting his brain!!". How would we ever know .
-
I'm curious to know how much hormones play into this. If a man has low T a lot of what I've read says....disorieted, confused, low self-imagine, etc. A feeling of not being well, metally.
Any thoughts?
This gave me pause to think as we have a 2 year old daughter that is his first biological child. I have read that men have a natural response to this event with a natural drop in testosterone. I don't know if I can fit it in the timeline, though. Maybe it's all part of the perfect storm conditions.
-
There is a lot of talk lately about low T and supplements, etc. BUT, we have always known that T decreases in men as they age, as estrogen does in women. There is a great book called Crossing Paths that talks about how MLC is not so much about the age of the person, but the age of the children and the paths of the spouse. They kind of argue that danger occurs when the paths cross at the same time. Men become more like women and women become more like men at a certain point in life. Men with lower T look around them at all the time they spent at work and their families and are afraid they are missing something, their response is "is this all there is?". Women look around at all they have taken care of and see all they have accomplished and say "wow, look at all there is!" And that change in perspective is dangerous, especially for men who see their wives bloom.
And then, parents see themselves in their kids, they see their traumas, their fears, their family dysfunctions and relive them in mirror. So, when a now unstable parent, crossing paths with a spouse looks at their same sex oldest child and sees a point in their lives that rocked them (parents' divorce, turbulent adolescence, loss of a loved one), they get sent in a tailspin. And it was so strange that I read this book right when our oldest son was the age of his father when his own father went on an alcoholic binge, had an affair with the secretary and almost left his mother. BD was about 2 years later for me...
And consider this about diagnosing PD:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/feeling-our-way/201502/personality-disorders-explained-what-they-are
-
Barbie the article I read said it is very hard to check their testosterone levels for two reasons. One, like you said they go up and down during the day but also because the normal test levels they look at are so wide they can look normal but it may not be normal for them. If that makes any sense.
I wish I had saved the article because it tells you what they should be testing. It's a specific test for them and shows more detail. I'll have to see if I can find that thing.
I'm not saying your H had low T, he maybe didn't but the tests are not very accurate.
I know my X's hormones were off when I saw him having hot flashes. True...hot flashes.
He doesn't have them anymore but he did for about a year or 2 after BD. If he had them before that time I couldn't tell you.
-
Men with lower T look around them at all the time they spent at work and their families and are afraid they are missing something, their response is "is this all there is?". Women look around at all they have taken care of and see all they have accomplished and say "wow, look at all there is!" And that change in perspective is dangerous, especially for men who see their wives bloom.
Wow you just described my H! I was on the rise in my career, bosses singing my praises, moving on to a more prestigious company, and H's dream job had just fallen apart. And then, parents see themselves in their kids, they see their traumas, their fears, their family dysfunctions and relive them in mirror. So, when a now unstable parent, crossing paths with a spouse looks at their same sex oldest child and sees a point in their lives that rocked them (parents' divorce, turbulent adolescence, loss of a loved one), they get sent in a tailspin.
Bingo, this happened when S was 7. I don't know if something happened in H's life at this time but he says he can't remember his childhood. I find that extremely odd......but no one is talking. BD was two years later as well!
-
slow fade, you should check out the book. When I read it, I found it so fascinating and then when my life fell apart, I read it again and was so shocked how eerie all the examples were compared to all the stories I hear here and on other MLC forums. It's an interesting theory by prominent researchers, but it doesn't get a lot of traction.
-
And then, parents see themselves in their kids, they see their traumas, their fears, their family dysfunctions and relive them in mirror. So, when a now unstable parent, crossing paths with a spouse looks at their same sex oldest child and sees a point in their lives that rocked them (parents' divorce, turbulent adolescence, loss of a loved one), they get sent in a tailspin. And it was so strange that I read this book right when our oldest son was the age of his father when his own father went on an alcoholic binge, had an affair with the secretary and almost left his mother. BD was about 2 years later for me...
I don't see this as anything but a coincidence but the granddaughter that we raised until she was 10 is now 13, about the same age my wife was when her father left home for good. But I think it's more relevant to her MLC that her father died 3 years ago.
-
You might find something of interest on this thread.
new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7973.0