Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Ez on December 17, 2011, 05:26:00 PM
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Hi All,
I decided to start a new thread (but it's perhaps more of a discussion) about the relationship between MLC and Mental Health Issues. Maybe this is a discussion thats been had before but I was wondering if there was anyone else out there with a MLCer who also suffers from problems with mental health.
5 years ago H had his first panic attack while at work. He strongly believes that it isn't anxiety and that he has something medically wrong with him. There is a family history of anxiety and he grew up being told by his dad "be careful or you'll end up mental like your mother and grandmother", so he has a real stigma about being "mental". While he has had some therapy in the early days he has relied upon medication to control the symptoms for most of the 5 years. In the last 2 years thinks had become so much worse and while I thought it was the anxiety I can see now it was also the MLC starting.
So often the lines between the MLC and the anxiety are blurred and I'm not sure where one begins and the other ends. I question it daily as to what is really going on and is it MLC or is it anxiety or am I just grasping at straws to find a reason behind this tragedy in our lives. It is so hard to see the person I love dearly suffering like this and be powerless to do anything about it, he looks absolutely terrible and despite the new clothes, dyed hair and fit body from working out every day.
Has anyone else experienced this and what if anything works. I'm trying to show H I care while not putting pressure on him, to be be warm and friendly and embrace him in our lives for the short moments we have with him. I try to hide the anger and frustration and hurt which is hard when he continues to do such irresponsible things and get himself into further debt. I've protected myself as much as possible financially but we still own a house together which i could lose. I also worry that he is becoming or is depressed and will either intentionally or unintentionally hurt himself.
It's been 3 months today since he left but feels like an eternity. I know this process takes time but I never give up hope. I had thought or hoped we may have been in a better place for christmas but as each day passes and christmas draws closer that hope is fading. I really miss my best friend and so badly wish he would come back to me.
Ez xx
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Hi Ez
I've only just found this thread while looking for mine.
Yes, there are many of us that ponder the same question.
Many believe that if there are any mental health issues that are 'hovering' prior to MLC, that the cocktail of the emotional, spiritual, developmental, hormonal changes, all construe to 'tip them over the edge' at this time of their lives.
My H is displaying manic tendencies throughout his crisis, but we're not seeing the related depressive 'down' state, where he isn't productive. Even so, many people have queried whether he is bipolar. I have no idea. I guess, like everything, it is all on a spectrum. He is very creative, and so these things often go hand in hand. But would he be able to pull himself together, and put on his public mask so easily when he wants to, if he truly was bipolar? This is where I get confused.
And yes, his anxiety and panic attacks have been extreme at various times throughout the crisis.
Not sure if you looked at my thread with the information on brain scanning and mental illness. Will include a link.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1771.0
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Thanks for the link Kikki and holy crap i think H's brain would light up like a christmas tree. So many of the symptoms described I have seen in H.
I often wonder whether the anxiety was triggered by the early stages of MLC or whether the MLC was triggered by the anxiety or whether they just crashed head on and created the train wreck I am dealing with now. Although I'm fairly certain the MCL was probably the final straw that did tip him over the edge.
My H is also very creative and has also had a bit of a "manic" personality but has also had the down "depressive" side too. These qualities seem heightened during this time and I have also had friends question whether H is Bipolar. I've seen worst case bipolar in work I've done and i wouldn't say it was that bad but like you said I think there is a spectrum with any diagnosis. While H continues to work and put on a public mask i also get confused but I also know work has noticed the changes, he's not working as much and taking more time off which he would never do. i do wonder just how long he can "hold it together". At the moment he uses medication to achieve this, often combines it with alcohol and I fear he is an accident waiting to happen.
It's so hard to see someone you love suffering like this and be powerless to do anything,
Ez xx
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Hi EZ, I am new to this forum, but I believe that some form of mental illness can trigger or at least contribute in some way to a MLC.
My husband also exhibits very bi-polar tendencies, and has suffered one or two severe bouts of depression in his life, one almost suicidal. He has always shown the the happy mask to the outside world, where as I got the "real" him, which I believe was always in a low level state of depression. After much urging from me he did attempt counseling a few times, and tried anti-depressants 2x, both times I saw a remarked difference, but he stopped both times on his own after a few months declaring they weren't helping. Right now he is definitely in a manic state and I fear what will happen when he actually looks back and really sees the path of destruction he has left, if that will trigger a severe depressive state, but not of a productive kind. I have just tried to position friends and family members that he knows, respects and looks up to to be around him so if he is ready to reach out for help, there will be someone there. I know that person can not be me.
I believe that certain personality types are more prone to severe symptoms of MLC, and I think having some form of even a functioning mental illness is one of those characteristics that make them more susceptible. I come from a family of mental health professionals, and they agree.
Meantime take care of yourself and know you can only do so much. Your husband has to want to take the steps to want to change, get help or deal with whatever is going on with himself. Its all up to him, and I know how frustrating that can be when you want to help so bad but can only watch them self destruct.
A Blessed Christmas to you and your family during this time.
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This is only my second reply - I haven't posted my own thread yet. But this really strikes home with me...my H (left home in September - living at his mother's house - she's in assisted living) has been going through a series of mental health issues (I believe) for the past several years. He lost his job (technically demoted from a school administrator to a teacher) and switched districts (to be a principal again). He completely broke down for several days and wouldn't leave his bed. It took all I had to get him out of bed, looking for a new job, and getting back to "normal". His father died not long after and that made it even worse...he was diagnosed as having low testosterone (after I finally put my foot down and said he had to seek help). He was put on prescription meds for that and also prescribed zoloft. The problem is that while the doctor said he needed to see a counselor for the underlying issues and that the medicine would only help take the edge off, he hasn't. I believe he either has some bipolar tendencies or, to be honest, may be a high functioning aspergers (my son is being tested right now for this and the similarities between he and his dad are incredible).
I just want him to get help - I've begged to go to counseling with him for our marriage and to help him, but right now he's just left home. He said he needs to clear his head, get things straight and the life at home is too much for him to handle right now- but I'm afraid that he is sinking deeper. He said the "thing" with the other woman was a realization that there's more out there and he needs to figure out what he wants...
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I read this yesterday and again today. I thought I'd add a little about my situation/experience in regards to this discussion. My exH was on medication about two years prior to BD (Oct. 09). He was very "secretive" about it and I respected his privacy. He told me he was experiencing "social anxiety" so he went to a psychotherapist every 3 or 4 months and was taking medication. I never actually knew what kind he was taking. He had later revealed to me that he was also on an antidepressant. So, after BD and he moved out and filed for divorce (all MLC stuff) his doctor appointments increased as well as medication. He was abusing the meds and the doctor was giving them too freely. After my exH lost his job June, 2010 he attempted suicide (overdose) and ended up in the hospital. I know this may sound strange, but I believe it was a blessing..........he got away from the "free giving doctor" and got with a better group of doctors. He is still on medication but it is monitored more closely as he continues to see his doctor. At one point my exH told me that his father and grandmother both suffered from depression. I never knew either of them. I realize depression is a major factor of MLC so I'm not sure that my exH suffers the "hereditary" depression or if it's just the MLC. I know my exH still blames everything on his depression. He seems somewhat better even though he is still struggling with issues.......can't find a job which keeps him down (he is working part-time) but he is also beginning to express a great deal of remorse over all the damage he has done and the loss of what he had with me. I know my exH is also dealing with other issues........he's always felt "pressure" from his family to keep everybody happy........apparently this is a major hurdled for him to overcome.
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TP - I also know I can't be the person to help H through this and yes I can only do so much. H picked the kids up yesterday after a doctors appointment. His panic attacks have worsened and he looked terrible. For the first time in ages he actually wanted to talk to me about it. I just listened, acknowledge how awful it must feel and reassured that i'm always here if he wants to talk. I didn't give any advice or voice my opinions other than to encourage him to look after himself and remind him i care. He was on the verge of tears and I could see the anguish he was going through. It's funny he said he was surprised that he had gotten so much worse considering he has finally got himself set up in a unit and has been on leave from work and relaxing. He just doesn't realise that running away, changing his environment and lifestyle are not going take away the root cause of his problems, they follow you wherever you go.
Tryingforhope - welcome to the forum, I hope you find it as helpful as I have. My H also left in September and saying very similar things, so I know how raw it can all feel. Hang in there and remember you are not alone. xx
LoveMyMan - I'm so glad your H is now getting the treatment he needs. I've also learnt the hard way that not all health care professionals provide the best treatment. You think you're doing the right thing by seeing someone but it only gets worse. Just because someone has qualification doesn't mean they are good at there job. I'm now having therapy about the way I was treated by another therapist. Sorry rant over, but I'm so passionate about it.
Anyway hope everyone survived Christmas and the holidays, take care and (((HUGS))) to all
Ez xx
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He just doesn't realise that running away, changing his environment and lifestyle are not going take away the root cause of his problems, they follow you wherever you go.
EZ-
I cant even count how many times over the years I have had that discussion with my H. He is a classic cut and run when he is emotionally overwhelmed. H somehow thinks he can either figure out how to change his self destructive behaviors on his own (even though he has failed for 20 years so far) or just leave them behind in the dust and they will just disperse away in a mushroom cloud behind him. I truly believe the build up of what he has tried and failed to run from has finally caught up and is the cause of this current crisis.
The biggest challenge is to not just know we can not fix them, but actually step back from it all and focus on ourselves. Everytime I do, he sucks me back in before I even realize its happening. My goal right now at the start of this journey, just to be able to recognize when its actually happening! Baby Steps, Baby Steps! - TP
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Maybe I am wrong, but I don't remember a thread about this specifically. If so, please merge.
I have asked several doctors (some are friends) about MLC. A few family members know what is going on and a few friends, but I don't "spread the word" far about h mlc otherwise.
One doctor said "Yes, it happens a lot". "Most people don't recognize it, but it looks like depression, melancholy, anxiety". When asked "Do they come out of it whole?", the same
doctor said, "Yes, eventually but sometimes they aren't the same person". So it goes to show that at least this medical doctor recognizes the symptoms.
I believe some mlcers do confide in their doctor, that "something" has changed within them or there are symptoms that they can put their finger on. Maybe they are looking for validation, prescription(s) or want to question a professional about it and not with their spouse or partner or friends.
Another doctor just said.. "Oh, I am so sorry that you and your family are dealing with a spouse having a midlife crisis."
Any thoughts? Has anyone else asked their doctor? Wondering, out loud...
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Honestly... I don't think anyone believes in or cares about MLC until it happens to them... even if they've "heard stories", they really can't relate.... just one of those things that circulates around between people... like a secret society... remember when you first landed here and someone said "Welcome to the club no one wants to be a member of....."?
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I went to a joint appt. to h´s PCP and she was willing to write a scrip for a CT scan and a psych appt. based on the input- which included "drastic personality change" and a very distraught me and a very quiet and withdrawn h.
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I just saw my doctor yesterday. I mentioned my stress level due to a divorce and he asked a few questions, asked my H's age and then said "midlife crisis?". He said it can be a very difficult time for some men and asked if he's dating 20 year olds with an eye roll. He also asked my daughter's ages and when I said 17 and 14, he said "oh, he's a dead man for leaving their mom and hurting the most important person in their lives" - meaning he's lost them. He sat with me and told me my biggest challenge won't be financial, it will be all the self questioning I will do. Why didn't I see this coming? Why couldn't I know what kind of person he really was? How can I make sure I don't choose another loser? etc. He was kind and validating.
We didn't linger on MLC, but he did mention it immediately. I went in for some routine bloodwork not expecting a mini counseling session. :)
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forthetrees, if you can still talk with her I would have her check thyroid and testosterone levels as well. Most docs don't think to check testosterone levels but it definitely factors into depression.
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When I went to my GP to arrange IC she commented on the fact that men do that, leave their families in their 40's so my guess is she's seen her fair share of destruction due to MLC.
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H and I have the same GP and usually schedule back to back appointments.
My H did not tell the GP he was having an MLC but asked for a testosterone test and told him that he was not sleeping well at all. GP prescribed low grade anti depressants.
A few minutes later, in my appointment, I told the GP about H's MLC...he just said "hmmm....".
Glad to hear at least some are aware.
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The first (female) lawyer I consulted with had gone through her own MLC. She could tell me almost verbatim what my H had said, as she had said them to her own spouse. She said she went for a period of time (2-3 years) believing that she did not want her spouse, he never listened to her, they had completely different interests, etc, etc.. She said that even though they had a young child, she couldn't seem to tear herself a way from wanting "her turn".
In the end, she said the both turned to their faith to bring them back together. Now, they lead marriage seminars as couple and fully disclose their own weaknesses in the process.
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He sat with me and told me my biggest challenge won't be financial, it will be all the self questioning I will do. Why didn't I see this coming? Why couldn't I know what kind of person he really was? How can I make sure I don't choose another loser? etc. He was kind and validating.
Well Faith tell you DR you don't think you'd have to worry about picking someone else who is MLC. The signs should all be there. They can't fake it for long. Maybe dead giveaways would be appearance and whatever words come out of thier mouths. They all have the same script.
Trust me; you would know. ::)
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Interesting thread- Great topic!
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My STBX and I also share the same GP, I mentioned MLC to him, and he seems completely ignorant.
He said my STBX looked fine, and hormone levels are fine. He asked isn't that something that happens to men in their 50s? Your W is too young at 42. If she doesn't love you it's because she is having an affair.
He said my BP is high, and I must be stressed and depressed, and prescribed me some ADs.
I am still surprised after a year that this is somewhat common... I spoke to two men at work who recently got divorced, and both indicate that their x had MLC. Both are in their 40s. My Brother In Law is divorced from his ex, also was in her 40s... said the same thing.
Either way, no matter how common, most people are not aware, and think I must be a horrible spouse.
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Just came across this when looking for something else. My doctor just rolled her eyes & said, oh you mean he's been lying for 20 years?
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He also asked my daughter's ages and when I said 17 and 14, he said "oh, he's a dead man for leaving their mom and hurting the most important person in their lives"
Hardly anything I've read is more true than this statement. Mygirls are 16 and 19 ( were 14 and 17 when it all went down)
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Reading hobo's doctor's response is why I don't like the phrase MLC - people already think it's something else (50 year old man with a blonde and a sportscar!!). I mean, even though a crisis at mid life is technicallly what it is, you've already picked an uphill battle publicly once you say it. This thing really needs its own distinction, IMO. But then it will be harder for people like us to find info! Catch 22.
I also think hobo's doctor wouldn't have been clued in to changes in neurotransmitters or emotional issues, so that's where general physicians alone would be lost in making a diagnosis. Psychiatry comes the closest - but how many of them seek that? So frustrating.
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Interesting thread.
I ended seeing the same doctor as my h a few months after BD. I was quite upset when I saw her and described my concerns about his behaviour. She just said "why would you want someone like that back you need to get on with your own life."
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Interesting thread.
I ended seeing the same doctor as my h a few months after BD. I was quite upset when I saw her and described my concerns about his behaviour. She just said "why would you want someone like that back you need to get on with your own life."
Yeah, because the mental wellbeing of your long-term marital partner isn't "your own life". I feel sorry for the people married to people with this attitude. Clearly, vows are good up until there's an opportunity for a "you go girl" talk show appearance.
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Anyone ever have to go in to see their OBGYN and tell them "I need all the tests: AIDS, STDS, and PAP"? What would you tell them the reason for THAT would be?
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Anyone ever have to go in to see their OBGYN and tell them "I need all the tests: AIDS, STDS, and PAP"? What would you tell them the reason for THAT would be?
Yes.
I have.
The doctors don't really care about the why.
They are trained not to be judgmental about things like this.
Your health and wellbeing is in the forefront, not any moral qualms or questions they might have.
They're there to help you maintain your health. Health testing and any therapies that help a physical condition/abnormality would be their focus.
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Anyone ever have to go in to see their OBGYN and tell them "I need all the tests: AIDS, STDS, and PAP"? What would you tell them the reason for THAT would be?
Yes.
I have.
The doctors don't really care about the why.
They are trained not to be judgmental about things like this.
Your health and wellbeing is in the forefront, not any moral qualms or questions they might have.
They're there to help you maintain your health. Health testing and any therapies that help a physical condition/abnormality would be their focus.
I haven't been in a few years, but mine would always ask if I wanted those tests along with my PAP. A few times I said, "Oh, I'm married, no worries," and they encouraged me to test anyway. Now I know why! ::)
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Anyone ever have to go in to see their OBGYN and tell them "I need all the tests: AIDS, STDS, and PAP"? What would you tell them the reason for THAT would be?
Yes.
I have.
The doctors don't really care about the why.
They are trained not to be judgmental about things like this.
Your health and wellbeing is in the forefront, not any moral qualms or questions they might have.
They're there to help you maintain your health. Health testing and any therapies that help a physical condition/abnormality would be their focus.
I haven't been in a few years, but mine would always ask if I wanted those tests along with my PAP. A few times I said, "Oh, I'm married, no worries," and they encouraged me to test anyway. Now I know why! ::)
OH Gosh that's a vote of confidence for our society! I guess just a dose of reality. Thanks, ladies!
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OH Gosh that's a vote of confidence for our society! I guess just a dose of reality. Thanks, ladies!
It's sad, isn't it? I used to think, "I'm so glad I'll never have to worry about that!". :o ;D I'm sure those doctors and nurses have seen it all.
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It's a trust but verify world.
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my two cents:
My H is an MD and thinks what he went through should be a subcategory of it's own under "depression". When he refers to himself (in replay i guess) he says, "oh that was when I was mentally ill." But he does now believe it's something to be recognized and treated, but he doesn't have the benefit or the knowledge that we've learned here. he mostly looks for scientific reasons for it. So far he's identified it in two of his colleagues, but frankly he's not sure how to speak to them let alone offer advice on treatment. He's finding them to be stubborn lot.
Faith: my girls were 13 and 16.5 when it happened. H does have a tough time relating to teenage girls' dramas and hormones. (but that's just one of a hundred things he had trouble with);
asking for tests: I did, and the OBGYN was shocked at H's behavior (he'd known him for years) but was non-judgmental. The awkward part was the nurse drawing the blood. She knew H but she didn't ask why i was doing it. I was embarrassed thinking she'd gossip now and figure it out. It wasn't until a year later that an old friend of mine, an OB, said that when the women asked it was usually because they'd strayed out of their marriage (or at least that's what they confessed to him). So now i'm thinking that old nurse is thinking I was the one stepping out. Sheesh.
I wonder if it ever gets classified, if there will be insurance coverage???
angelgirl
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I also think hobo's doctor wouldn't have been clued in to changes in neurotransmitters or emotional issues, so that's where general physicians alone would be lost in making a diagnosis. Psychiatry comes the closest - but how many of them seek that? So frustrating.
Yes, most GP’s don’t know much about changes in neurotransmitters or emotional issues. Some psychiatrists know about both, some only about the emotional/psychological issues. Neurologists are excellent with the changes in neurotransmitters and all brain concerned things but are not trained to attend to people emotional or psychological issues.
Some GP’s and psychiatrists do request thyroid and hormonal tests but not all. Think MLC would require a multidisciplinary medical team.
My H is an MD and thinks what he went through should be a subcategory of it's own under "depression". When he refers to himself (in replay i guess) he says, "oh that was when I was mentally ill." But he does now believe it's something to be recognized and treated, but he doesn't have the benefit or the knowledge that we've learned here. he mostly looks for scientific reasons for it.
Angelgirl, what scientific reasons is your husband look for to explain MLC? He says he was mentally ill, does he sees MLC like a mental ilness, even if a temporary one?
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Really interesting thread thanks everyone. Next time I speak to gp I'm gonna ask!
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AnneJ: I notice that H sees MLC as a "major depressive episode". He believes that it is a function of physiological changes brought on my age, change in hormones and extreme stress. He's often asked why it afflicts some and not others. He has stopped his thinking at "some people are more prone to it than others". If i try to explain what i've learned, i think he tunes me out. We, on this forum, have learned that there are so many other factors of course which include issues in childhood, failure to cope, misguided paths, dependent personalities, turning away/lack of Spiritual Center and others that may be specific to the person. I said to my H, let's just say "it was the perfect Storm".
When he was in the worst of it, I fantasized that there would be a rehab just for this. But my H said that while someone is going through it, getting them to see they are dis-eased will be a challenge. You can't ask for help if you don't know you need it. H said he convinced himself that the answer to his despair was in Replay and all that went with it. Somehow (God only knows) he realized it wasn't working. After he came home he took some anti-depressants for a short period of time. He said he could recognize how his "brain" was getting back to normal. "the connections are normal now...I don't know how to explain it..." He no longer takes anything but he is progressing well.
Unfortunately he never investigated it in general, but he's developing a "radar" at spotting it in others. But beyond that, he is more focused on his health and our family. Maybe one day he will resume his investigation of it; it would be interesting.
angelgirl
rebuilding
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Thank you, Angelgirl. My line of though is more similar to your husband’s one than the general view in the board. I think a major factor is brain chemical imbalance, imbalanced neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters imbalance provoke depression and other mental illness, like bipolarity.
But I don’t think that just an imbalance in the neurotransmitters will bring on a MLC. Something else had to be added to it. Age, or fear of aging (my husband was paranoid with age and he was only 36) can be one of those things. Or a emotional shock. In a person that already has deficient neurotransmitters, it can the perfect storm.
I’m not big on the childhood issues or dependent personalities line of thought. There may be some of that, of course but alone it would not be enough. Despite that I like Jung’s theory and his approach on self, shadow, rebirth. But Jung had a major depression before WWI and his thoughts on what we call MLC mainly come from that situation.
Guess sometimes the same happens with addicts, it is hard for them, while in the middle of it, to recognise something is wrong. Some know and want out but don’t manage it. Makes sense the antidepressants made your husband brain get back to normal, they work upon the neurotransmitters and help balance their levels. If the neurotransmitters levels are balanced the brain is levelled, therefore working normally. Since he is no longer engaging on Replay behaviour he most likely no longer need the meds.
Hope your husband keeps being focused on his health and family. That is what all our MLCers should be doing.
Hugs, A
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I’m not big on the childhood issues or dependent personalities line of thought. There may be some of that, of course but alone it would not be enough. Despite that I like Jung’s theory and his approach on self, shadow, rebirth. But Jung had a major depression before WWI and his thoughts on what we call MLC mainly come from that situation.
I'm of the same mind. Extremely low serotonin will cause a person's mind to seek out horrific or traumatic memories or images, and this is where I think some of those latent issues come to the forefront. Ultimately, this is for the good - things that probably would have laid dormant and been underlying problems get dealt with and healed once and for all, as chemicals balance and the brain is able to sort them out in a logical way. It's the chicken-or-the-egg thing, and for me, I think the chemical imbalance comes first. But that's only speculation, as I'm no professional. I can't deny though that there is something to the very literal stages emotionally - if there were a pill that would cure MLC, I don't think it would give a person a fair shot at really becoming whole.
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i think there is truth to thoughts creating illness. I think it's mind-body, not Mind/Body.
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Low Serotonin is a big contributing factor in my H's crisis. He'd suffered from seasonal depression for years. My D18 also. In fact, i traced her migraine issues to low serotonin as well. But how we cope with stress is often learned at home. Although I've yet to discover the big childhood "issue" in my H's past, one thing is for certain, his own father could only convey "love' if the child was productive. For example, my H, as a little boy wanted to play in the school band and came home with the biggest brass instrument he could find. It was bigger than him! His father immediately called him "stupid" for doing so. Later his father said that he called him that because the instrument was a bad choice and he was worried about him. (But he never said it that way) That's not how my H took it. This was only one instance of many. His father routinely criticized him thinking it was 'good' for him.
When H was grown, he withdrew from pursuing a specialty in medicine. Specialties bring in more income. We are married at the time and I said I supported whatever career he wanted. Why pursue something you'll be miserable in? Over the phone, his father said, "i wasted my money on you!" inferring that all the education he paid for was for nothing because my H wasn't going for a more lucrative path. His father, despite his morbid obesity, also made fun other people's looks; calling them "old" and "fat". My H has been concerned with that for years. But the worse thing was that his father and mother never really taught him how to cope. H often looks for distractions and escapes. So when depression sets in, he looks to gamble, eat, sports or run someplace sunny. These are temporary fixes. So between the genetic disposition for low serotonin and a poor foundation in childhood, H's depressions were doomed to lead to MLC.
H is dependent on others to pull him of depression as well. when i "failed" to distract him, he turned to a fantasized version of OW. In fact, his old distractions of eating, gambling and sports also "failed" him he complained. He refused to take the usual SSRI's that helped his out of his SAD, and relied heavily on his fantasy life. Today, my H would agree whole-heartedly that back then, his brain neurotransmitters were out of whack, and his close family and friends asked many times if he may be bipolar.
H admits that when he's "bored" the anxiety and depression creep in. He says he needs to stay active. This isn't boredom to me; it's the old "distraction" technique. My D18 also suffers from SAD, and takes a low dose SSRI in the winter. When she is distracted by events she looks and sounds happy. Then she comes home to study and waves of sadness take over. "I hate to be alone with my thoughts," she says. The good news is that she recognizes that is not an outside stimulus causing this, but her internal chemical imbalance. Some natural supplements have also helped her.
Many, many years ago, my sister went through her H's MLC. Only she had no idea that's what it was. By the time they had agreed for him to rebuild at home (they are still together BTW), she insisted that he have a brain scan. He did have a full medical workup, but the scan never happened. I would be curious to see if anything showed up!!!!
angelgirl
rebuilding
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The father/son dynamic and fantasy distractions resonate SO much with my H's sitch, angelgirl. It gives me hope, because there are times when I think this may run so deep that he'll never tunnel out. It's good to see someone did AND has an awareness about it.
UP, I'm trying to reconcile the mind-body thing within all of this, too, because I do believe that as well. I think I know in our sitch how that correlates. But again, it's sort of chicken-or-the-egg, and this one I'm not as clear about. Stuff to think on...
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H admits that when he's "bored" the anxiety and depression creep in. He says he needs to stay active. This isn't boredom to me; it's the old "distraction" technique. My D18 also suffers from SAD, and takes a low dose SSRI in the winter. When she is distracted by events she looks and sounds happy. Then she comes home to study and waves of sadness take over. "I hate to be alone with my thoughts," she says. The good news is that she recognizes that is not an outside stimulus causing this, but her internal chemical imbalance. Some natural supplements have also helped her.
Both my Husband and my Father use the 'distraction' technique. My Father refuses to admit to any depression and now is a full-blown (although functional) alcoholic. But he tells the story over and over about how he recognized depression in himself at one point and immediately said "Hey, I am just NOT going to be depressed". Whenever I told him I was depressed he told me to decide not to be. Perhaps this sounds like denial, and there is that too mixed in, but he distracted himself with other things. My husband specifically says "If you feel depressed you need a distraction" and does the exact same thing for himself. Work distracts him mostly, he busies himself at home with his files. He spends hours meandering on the internet while locked up in his hole, and at worst, but quite regularly now, he drinks. Replay is all about denial and distraction. I would lump nostalgia in there too.
Also, my H has serious issues with SAD. He has told me often he wants to live in a sunny place (thus the california thing) and yet he does nothing about moving there, or seriously discussing it with me, and then when he finally does, it's in secret. California is like a secret OW, the seduction of a sunny place to a desolate and dark mind.
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Fwiw I have a (very newbie) perspective on this as a doc (though not psych); my mixed-up MLC H is a physician too. And since this broke, god knows I've seen my share of docs...
Two days after BD - I was working in the ICU, palpitating madly through rounds and generally a sub-clinical basket case (fine timing, H!!) - so called the local docs-at-risk line. First psych I spoke with described MLC as "childhood chickens coming home to roost". But really he attributed the problem to full-blown, life-long narcissism on H's part, sent me off to read about personality disorders, and had me half convinced that I was a complete idiot and doormat for not seeing this 20 years ago. ...Eventually I found another psych. Current doc equates MLC to a mental health crisis, for which depression may be the root cause (and in which narcissism and passive-aggression may appear, but are not previous hallmarks of the MLCer's character). I can live with this definition! The MLCer's behaviours and coping mechanisms are similar to those of an alcoholic; and therefore she recommended the same coping mechs for me as she would for someone living with an alcoholic.
My H is from a dysfunctional, highly judgemental family. He was non-confrontational and therefore avoidant. Surely a number of Ericksonian stages had been left unresolved. But perhaps that laid the grounds for poor coping mechs. I've read about FOO issues from many of your stories, seems to be a theme.
I do think my H's precipitating problem was dysthymia, maybe depression - disturbed sleep, anger, anhedonia, lot of the psychomotor signs. He tried to self-medicate by "chasing the dragon" - more and more risky activity, hunting for endorphins to provide that happy feeling, drown out the emptiness. For the past year, he's been cycling with greater frequency, and if the fix didn't work (no "high", body didn't let him summit the mountain, etc), crashed into rage. Being a doc and therefore pig-headed (!), he refused to consider this might be a mental health issue. Then the crisis....
So generalizing sadly from my little experience, I wonder if many of the risk-taking behaviours in MLC fall into the self-medication category (including OM/OW in this). Brain serotonin deficiency, though critical, seems too global a word; individual neurons may have deficient transmitters, but it's the connections and how they're managed that are important, not just the act of neurotransmission. Too fine a process to turn up on any scan. Antidepressants are like using a mallet to turn a screw (they work sort of, but...). I don't know that there's a good scientific (or pharmacological) handle on this. As usual, the best answers come from psychology, not psychiatry.
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So dramatically low serotonin is the reason for the depression in the crisis? Is this the covert and the overt phase of the crisis? Would the infatuation hormones create surges of energy that "distract the brain" from the lower serotonin?
I am taking ssri, still not sleeping well though which is so frustrating because when I get a good sleep my mood feels 100 times better. I have often thought that my Post Natal Depression reminds a little of the way my H is possibly feeling. I blamed my R on why I felt so low, and saw my Hs faults over and above anything else. It's so sad that as my PND lifted his MLC kicked in like no tomorrow and he left! Would the low serotonin in pnd account for the accessing of negative memories more easily than positive ones? Well having said that for the two years after I had my D2 I felt low and was treated for pnd but my H was starting his MLC and treating me appallingly, staying out 3 or 4 nights a week, BD when D six months old, telling me he had nothing to come back to etc...... So it's hardly surprising I was seeing my Hs faults above everything else!
Such a confusing time ???
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I want to weigh in on this too, TT, that my H put on weight as I did over the pregnancy, and sort of had the same cycle as I did while pregnant and after pregnancy...My mood dictated his. And I hardly noticed. There is something to it I am sure.
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How much does low T or in a woman the fluctuating hormonal changes make to MLC or depression?
Maybe my theory is wrong but perhaps the stress of raising kids or bringing home the dough and not really having fun anymore causes people to just lose interest in what they have in their marriage and their family. They just want to start with a clean slate. (What do you all think?)
Maybe emotionally and psychologically, we are not wired to have longtime committed relationships?
I'm just throwing out these ideas because I am not really grasping this MLC yet--whether it is happening in my family or not. I just don't understand some of the Erickson or Jungian theory yet. (I am reading the info as fast as I can but I am just not sure and it makes me dwell.)
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Thanks for your input, OSB.
Current doc equates MLC to a mental health crisis, for which depression may be the root cause (and in which narcissism and passive-aggression may appear, but are not previous hallmarks of the MLCer's character). I can live with this definition! The MLCer's behaviours and coping mechanisms are similar to those of an alcoholic; and therefore she recommended the same coping mechs for me as she would for someone living with an alcoholic.
Think this make sense and fits into what we observe in our MLCers. Wich are the mechanisms for someone living with and alcoholic?
I do think my H's precipitating problem was dysthymia, maybe depression - disturbed sleep, anger, anhedonia, lot of the psychomotor signs. He tried to self-medicate by "chasing the dragon" - more and more risky activity, hunting for endorphins to provide that happy feeling, drown out the emptiness.
This is what it seems to happen with many of the MLCers.
So generalizing sadly from my little experience, I wonder if many of the risk-taking behaviours in MLC fall into the self-medication category (including OM/OW in this). Brain serotonin deficiency, though critical, seems too global a word; individual neurons may have deficient transmitters, but it's the connections and how they're managed that are important, not just the act of neurotransmission.
Would say so, many of the risk-taking behaviours in MLC are self-medication. And they always end up falling. But wouldn’t the connections and how they are managed been messed up with the imbalanced levels plus the hunt for endorphins, and the rest of the lot? Any idea why some MLCers can last many years in Replay? It is exhausting yet, there they remain…
Hi, New Attitude
How much does low T or in a woman the fluctuating hormonal changes make to MLC or depression?
They may play a part but I don’t think they are the only factor. Other may have a different view.
Maybe my theory is wrong but perhaps the stress of raising kids or bringing home the dough and not really having fun anymore causes people to just lose interest in what they have in their marriage and their family. They just want to start with a clean slate. (What do you all think?)
No, your theory is not wrong. They feel stressed and burden by their obligations. Even the one without kids and have a life with more than enough fun. Single people also have MLC and for those I think it is feeling tied to a job, a lifestyle they think tied them down. Problem is, once they are in crisis they attached themselves to a lot of new things and still have all the old issues to solve. Their freedom is an illusion.
Maybe emotionally and psychologically, we are not wired to have longtime committed relationships?
I think we are wired to longtime committed relationships. In pre-history that was what allow us to survive. If in those times we keept jumping from person to person there would had not be any humans left. It is true humsn lived far less than now in pre-historic times. Even a few decades ago life spam expectancy was much lower.
I just don't understand some of the Erickson or Jungian theory yet. (I am reading the info as fast as I can but I am just not sure and it makes me dwell.)
The theories are complex. They are a guideline but we don’t have to understand them at once. We don’t even have to understand the whole theories themselves, if we managed to get the basic we get what is going on in a MLC. I find Erickson far too complicated and can’t get it that well. Jung is simpler. At least for me.
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How much does low T or in a woman the fluctuating hormonal changes make to MLC or depression?
From my experience hormonal changes have a huge impact on depression. But having said that latest research says it's low serotonin which I seem to suffer with too. I do know my own body though and feel that hormones have played a huge part in the depressive symptoms I have experienced. I just need to do more research.
Low T in my MLCer doesn't seem to be the thing. I don't know much about it but I know that he is having the time of his life in the bedroom department with his new 25 yr. old ow, and I think low T would have the opposite effect. Some of you may know more than me, I think I read that somewhere??????
He is very stressed with work and I would have thought that would have an impact on his MLC and his neurological balance. Over the past two years he has become more and more obsessed with his business, less and less available for us in the family and consequently our R was like a battle ground sometimes with me trying to say I missed him and that we needed him at home and him saying I was a nag and that he didn't have anything to come home to. He has been saying he's changing and becoming the man he always should have been but that person wasn't someone he liked because it was taking him away from his kids. So, STRESS with work and confusion about who they are and what they believe in must have a huge on brain balance chemically or does the chemical imbalance come first?
I need to know more and read more.
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TT
I don't know much about it but I know that he is having the time of his life in the bedroom department with his new 25 yr. old ow
HA!!!! They lie about everything... ::) ::)
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TT..my husband has always been devoted to work but it became worse as work took over his whole life. He never shuts it off, doesn't take much vacation time and travels on weekends to get to the next meeting. He's 58 and has done amazingly well in his career but it is never enough.
There is no balance in his life...as far as I can see he has no outside interests or friends other than work people.
There was nothing I could do about it and if I dared to ask for some time and attention...well, I do think that one of the reasons for BD was I didn't want to prolong our assignment in Asia and he was loving it..so I had to go...but he didn't get to stay there either...was sent to South America.....I worry about his health but I guess that it is only through his work that somehow his ego gets stroked enough to enable him to feel good about himself...yet what I see is that he has not felt good about himself for a very long time.
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t I guess that it is only through his work that somehow his ego gets stroked enough to enable him to feel good about himself...yet what I see is that he has not felt good about himself for a very long time.
Yes this is my feelings about my H. He became pumped up with self confidence more and more from the conception of his business. He complained relentlessly that I didn't support him, I wasn't like other wives who support their H, that I never took any interest in his work and generally how awful I was. His ow was stroking his ego and boosting his self confidence as I was being told I was horrid and unsupportive. I knackered looking after two kids, working a job I don't like and suspecting my H was having an affair ..... I can see how she looks the more attractive force!
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Lecture: TT everything he has said to you was out of guilt & rationalization. He was already with ow or depressed & looking for a scapegoat--you were it. Listen to none of what they say & 50% of what they do. ;D
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Good lecture calamity! I know I will write that on a post it listen to none of what they say and only 50% of what they do! Repeat!
I seem to forget everything when I'm around him!
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Thanks for your input, OSB.
Current doc equates MLC to a mental health crisis, for which depression may be the root cause (and in which narcissism and passive-aggression may appear, but are not previous hallmarks of the MLCer's character). I can live with this definition! The MLCer's behaviours and coping mechanisms are similar to those of an alcoholic; and therefore she recommended the same coping mechs for me as she would for someone living with an alcoholic.
Think this make sense and fits into what we observe in our MLCers. Wich are the mechanisms for someone living with and alcoholic?
Would say so, many of the risk-taking behaviours in MLC are self-medication. And they always end up falling. But wouldn’t the connections and how they are managed been messed up with the imbalanced levels plus the hunt for endorphins, and the rest of the lot? Any idea why some MLCers can last many years in Replay? It is exhausting yet, there they remain…
Thanks Anne. What I've been advised: As with an alcoholic, don't expect one minute to lead logically to the next. Anger is often right around the corner. Always have a safe place (physically and/or emotionally) that you can get to. If emotions show up (yours or H's), give them limited reign before removing yourself from the situation and de-escalating. Keep things pleasant, live in the present, get over heavy ground lightly. Set clear boundaries, and simply walk away if he crosses them. But if you can do it safely, don't stop nurturing. Be the one safe place for H where he can try to get his act together without judgement.
Overall, not much different from what I hear about on this board!! Am trying to live this, since my H and I still live in the same house and thus spend a fair amount of time together. FWIW H's scary acting out has slowly decreased; and more to the point, my fear has mostly gone. This may just be a matter of time, rather than the success of any one coping strategy.
Think the replay, the chasing endorphins will likely continue until the high no longer works and H bottoms out. Sheer mental and physical exhaustion might be just the key. Hoping H has less stamina... but I fear he can keep this up for some considerable time.
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Thank you, OSB. From what I know of alcoholics some of them never get their act together and many are dangerous to be around. We have lots of alcoholics is the main cause of domestic violence around here. But maybe those are the most severe cases. I know there are several levels.
The recommendations are similar from the ones here on the board. Mine left and I’m glad he did. Even out of the home, a few times he come round our flat he was violent. I’ve long moved back home. I’m physically safe but husband remains in MLC.
I think the same, the replay will last until sheer mental and physical exhaustion makes them stop. But some manage to last any years. My husband has been on it for over 6 years. And that is strange. He used to need a lot of rest, has been depressed twice before MLC and it took him far less to need to stop working and gave sick leave. Now he does not seem to break and crash. Weird.
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I think the same, the replay will last until sheer mental and physical exhaustion makes them stop. But some manage to last any years. My husband has been on it for over 6 years. And that is strange. He used to need a lot of rest, has been depressed twice before MLC and it took him far less to need to stop working and gave sick leave. Now he does not seem to break and crash. Weird.
Anne, do you think his prior depressions actually built his "tolerance" for MLC, allowing replay to last longer because his body and mind were already used to not being "normal"? That just popped up for me as I read your post, and wanted to throw it out there.
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No, Ready2, I don’t think is prior depression built his “tolerance” to MLC. The second depression was worse than first one and he reached critical point much faster. That is the nature of normal depressions. The second, or 3rd time, it will be faster to get to critical point. Depression leaves a mark inside a person. He was depressed and burned out. The physical and mental exhaustion lead to the depression.
My friend the psychiatrist says that recurring burn outs/depressions will arrive first and are harder to go away. Or, at least, the sequels will be more severe.
MLC is a beast of its own.
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That's interesting, and I have to admit, made me feel 'better' (not really the right word, probably) in some way. H had several bouts of depression in his teens and twenties, and I was hoping they didn't lay the groundwork to make this worse.
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A person who has been depressed has a bigger chance of depression that a person who has not but MLC is something else. The depression part can come from their previous depressions (they are susceptible), however in a normal depression they don’t run, they just become “dead”. They start to loose speed and interest in things until they’re totally incapable of getting out of bed. In MLC they somehow transform the overt depression into more energy. The endorphins OSB talks about. Along with everything else we know. If only it was a normal depression…
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Just wanted to jump in here on the thread topic.....I'm going to go back to right after BD....when I had my emotional breakdown and ended up in the "Pac unit" ( Only my H and MY family know what happened to me) Anyway, I HAD to talk to the counselor before being released....I told him about what My H was doing....He was instantly furious and said.." no wonder your a nervous wreck, Your H is whacked out and going through a mid life crisis, He Will regret everything in 3 years"
I also at a later date asked my own doctor about MLC.....and he said "Yes that men go through it...its not all about sports cars and younger women...he said, its men trying to hard to stay young and it throws them for an emotional loop"
I also called a pastor that counseled husbands and wives going through an affair recovery...he said he was 100% felt that MOST if not all mid life affairs come from a crisis.
But then of course tell your neighbor or friend and they look at you cross eyed! ugh
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I HAD to talk to the counselor before being released....I told him about what My H was doing....He was instantly furious and said.." no wonder your a nervous wreck, Your H is whacked out and going through a mid life crisis, He Will regret everything in 3 years"
Yep, no wonder we're nervous wrecks. They will regret. All former MLCers i know regret it. All end up divorced with the LBS moving forward and no longer wanted them back. Sadly sometimes it takes more than 3 years.
I also at a later date asked my own doctor about MLC.....and he said "Yes that men go through it...its not all about sports cars and younger women...he said, its men trying to hard to stay young and it throws them for an emotional loop"
Not all men go through it but many will. Same for women. Think all of us here would be very happy if all it was about was the 20 years blonde and the red sports car. That would be a walk on the beach for us.
I also called a pastor that counseled husbands and wives going through an affair recovery...he said he was 100% felt that MOST if not all mid life affairs come from a crisis.
In one way or another I think most affairs come from a crisis. In MLC that is even more obvious.
But then of course tell your neighbor or friend and they look at you cross eyed! ugh
Yes they will. And the ones of have a spouse that has an affair and/or MLC will divorce and move forward. Most people do not waste much time with a cheating and/or mad spouse. They just end the marriage and move forward.
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As far as I know, there is no EA or OW or anything. (There definitely is not an OM on my part!) I think he does see me as the 'bad one' so his friends male or female, he just jokes with and has fun with them. I don't think that counts as an EA. However, I'm just plain tired of the loneliness. We both live here but I am tired of the rule changes he has made: no touch, no hugs, no sitting by him... We sleep in the same bed but God forbid that he cuddle or touch. I have no idea if this is MLC or just 'he's done' but at this point. This has just been going on for so long with only slight improvements before it roller coasters down again.
I am tired of waiting for a positive change and if it goes downhill worse than this, well, I just am at my end of my patience. I know my troubles iwth MLC or monster (though I think he has done monster and maybe I have if you count my words during the most horrific family stress period ever...) However, my words are like etchings compared to his words through the heart. Maybe I shouldn't complain and maybe I don't have the right to because I know things can be so much worse but ... how do I explain? It's like I want a return to our good times or making better times and he, I feel, has tossed me into a forgotten corner in the room. I see posts that say if you can wait and be patient, often times, this 'MLC' or depression or behavior, whatever you want to call it, will get better.
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The no touch/hug/space bubble thing is all too familiar. People just "breaking up" or growing apart will have a physical distancing, but I've noticed with MLCers it becomes this strange "thing" that they use as controlling behavior. We aren't "allowed" in much the same way a small child will have a "don't touch me" tantrum. Once we get used to this kind of behavior, it changes who we are. It's not good. :(
Hugs and prayers to you. Being at a place where this is not acceptable shows you are sane. I wish I'd done that earlier.
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NA, things may get worse. Mine only did that no kissing/touching thing a few days before the day he had choose to leave. I couldn’t get what was going on. Weirdly, after he left, he would hug and kiss (cheek kiss and that was new, but still kiss). Think it is their way of saying it is over. Or of wanting us to give up. Not good.
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The no touch/hug/space bubble thing is all too familiar. People just "breaking up" or growing apart will have a physical distancing, but I've noticed with MLCers it becomes this strange "thing" that they use as controlling behavior. We aren't "allowed" in much the same way a small child will have a "don't touch me" tantrum. Once we get used to this kind of behavior, it changes who we are. It's not good. :(
Hugs and prayers to you. Being at a place where this is not acceptable shows you are sane. I wish I'd done that earlier.
So is this MLC or is this a break up llike a teenager has before moving on? Or is this something that if I give him time and space, he will figure out that he's throwing a good person away? Or will he suddenly just wake up and say whatever a reformed MLC person says. BTW...this 'don't touch me' has been a while now. In the past year, after his heart attack, I believe 'he' has come to trust my friendship towards him and that somehow I have earned a few points back. However, he doesn't get it: He may feel I have not been a friend to him in the past, but he is forgetting that he has not been my friend in the past and though he has lightened up a little, he is not being such a good friend to me in the present, too. Yes, I get mad and lonely and I still care about him, but facing a life and death situation like his heart attack makes me realize that if we only have a few short years left, then I'd rather both of us have some joy. That includes whatever I have to do for him to have joy and me too. I'd like it to be together but my patience might end before his depression does. I guess I just don't see how if he is 'done' whether it is MCL or not if there is really any way he can rebuild a bridge to me because it's not like he is trying and I am just trying to be distant and build my own wall at this point.
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NA, things may get worse. Mine only did that no kissing/touching thing a few days before the day he had choose to leave. I couldn’t get what was going on. Weirdly, after he left, he would hug and kiss (cheek kiss and that was new, but still kiss). Think it is their way of saying it is over. Or of wanting us to give up. Not good.
I hate to say it but this has been going on a while. Things are better than they were before. I mean before, I could tell he didn't even want to introduce me as his wife. (I of course had weight gain from the antidepressants I was on from what our family 'trauma' was that we were coping with. I looked like $h!te.) There is a story here but just let me say, I am astute and I noticed the pause before he introduced me as 'his wife.' Also, that was many years ago. I almost left him around 3 or so years ago when things came to a head! I had my boxes and bags packed and was going to move out. I had to finish a few weeks of work and then I was going to leave. Two days before I was to leave, I tore my achilles ligament on my driving foot and so I ended up staying. Two months later, he was incredibly rude to my family and instead of me moving out, I moved his things into the garage and told him to go. I told him to just give me a 'fair' amount of money and I did not care about taking 'half' or anything, just a fair portion. He didn't. In December last year, a big fight happened with his parents and our daughter and his default was to blame me for what the daughter did. I said to him at that pont, "Well, so are you going to divorce me now?" He stomped away not saying anything. Eventually, he spoke to me and my daughter and realized that I had nothing to do with what happened (except for trying to prevent it) and he had to admit that her reason for what she did was valid. At any rate, I state this because that is the last time divorce was discussed or alluded to, although the argument was close to a BD.
And once again, we start inching up the hill towards... a truce? Yes, I am family to him. He does not give up family unless they have really done wrong by him. He knows I have not. He knows I am not the crazy loon who lost her head because the daughter was raped and suicidal, the other daughter was acting up, he was coping with business issues, and I fell apart because two children were Hell bent on drama and killing each other and blaming me and their dad and we couldn't cope as a family. I know he thought I was crazy because the antidepressants made things worse and I wasn't sleeping and having nightmares and PTSD and so on... I admit, I fell apart. I consider myself to be smart and normal because who in their right mind can handle 3 other crazy people without falling apart too?
So any ways, I have really tried to think of this site to help me build my own wall, which I am not good at, and to regulate my emotions, which I am not good at, and to learn about if he or I or both of us have MLC or if we have just been traumatized to the bone! These past 2 weeks (since I let him go to a gathering without me) he has been a little less harsh and even ...touches me with an arm in bed but it's NOT right and it's not good enough when I shouldn't have to worry that I should move or he will notice he is touching me!
This is way TMI for a 'rant' and especially for this being a public forum.
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I also just want to add that I am stressed out. I have missed a menstrual cycle and it is either menopause or stress related but it is not pregnancy since I don't stray; much as I would LOVE to cuddle and feel loved again and have sex. I'm not interested in straying though.
I also have to add that I don't know if I am supposed to or allowed to post things like this in threads or if it has to be in my own thread. I can't post to only my own thread. It is not a logical way I can view a discussion but please let me know if I am doing this wrong.
RCR edited to correct missing comma--at request of poster.
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It is hard to say from what you write if you are both stressed and worn out, both having a MLC or your husband has been in MLC for a few years. On discussion threads, if possible, if would be better to debate the discussion theme. On our own threads we can post what we want (within the board rules of behaviour). On other threads it depends, each case is a case. As for your missing cycle, again, it is hard to say if it is stress of menopause. Stress can make cycles disappear for months.
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It is hard to say from what you write if you are both stressed and worn out, both having a MLC or your husband has been in MLC for a few years. On discussion threads, if possible, if would be better to debate the discussion theme. On our own threads we can post what we want (within the board rules of behaviour). On other threads it depends, each case is a case. As for your missing cycle, again, it is hard to say if it is stress of menopause. Stress can make cycles disappear for months.
I used to just think he had Low T and we both had depression and PTSD. We went through Hell. I feel we lost everything we had, emotionally. Our family fell apart. The floor of our foundation gave out. You can only deal with so much drama, trauma, stress, and pain before you just give up.
I am 51 so it could be either.