Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Rollercoasterider on December 09, 2010, 10:52:31 AM
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Another poster requested that I post this excerpt from The Solo Partner by Phil Deluca.
When I wrote my Pursuit & Distance Article for the newsletter this was my initial soruce. After reading it I ordered a few other books on the topic, but this was the first and it is excellent. I personally was not fond of the book other than this topic--but it just wasn't my style and I still think it is good.
Pursuit & Distance is the first article in my Contact and Communication series. There are three total P&D articles.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance.html
The Pursuit & Distance chapter is Chapter 8; this excerpt is from that chapter on pages 183 - 188.
Snodderly from DB introduced me to this book when she created a thread on Pursuit & Distance--here's the thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574 (http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574)
Edited for new link - OldPilot
Many of the gender pronouns have been neutralized with they.
TRAITS
Emotional Pursuers (predominantly female)
SEXUAL STYLE: Distance
SENSE OF SELF: Strongly non-individualistic.
Has difficulty being alone or acting independently for any length of time.
Rarely does things on own.
Primarily does what others want.
Tends to be clinging and overly anxious.
A follower.
Depends on others for guidance.
Sees the world as centered on others "Gives to get"
Feels taken for granted.
Overly Concerned and protective of others.
Always looking out for others never for self.
Overly Adaptative. Chooses to be like others or to yield for the sake of unity.
Feels empty without interaction with others.
Constantly seeking love, approval, and appreciation.
Will give up individuality for the sake of relationship.
TRUST: Tends to be naive about relationships. Optomistic about other's motives.
Overly trusting; frequently taken advantage of.
EMOTIONS: Primarily people and feeling oriented.
Places these above material things.
Seeks out emotions and emotionality.
Overemotional and effect is heightened.
Openly shows feelings to everyone.
Expresses a full range of emotions.
Frequently intensely expressive, at the expense of thought or reason.
Overinvolved with others.
A Codependent.
Overly sympathetic and empathetic.
Heightened response to others.
Avoids pain,Tries to protect others from the consequences of their behavior.
EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES: Ill defined. May be nosy, intrusive.
Always has to know whats going on with everyone in the family at all times.
RELATIONSHIP SKILLS: Immaturely applied
SENSE OF RESPOSIBILITY:Overly responsible; Assumes to much resposibility for the relationship.
Assumes solution is in their power with sufficient effort.
Most comfortable emotionally(although not truly happy) when tending to others. Tends to infantilze others.
Is a "rescuer"
CAPACITY TO CHANGE: Insight into others, but little into self.
Often held back by looking for explanations.
Much talk of change while still passive.
Changes made to appease. Avoids significant change because of anticipated pain and lack of approval.
Wants prior guarantees.
Open to direct change. Overly amenable.
Fears taking a stand and dealing with consequences.
Believes problems must be dealt with instantly.
Seeks advice, counseling.
Open to offered solutions via own efforts.
RYTHYM OF INITIATING CHANGE: Overly impatient.
Cannot delay dealing with problems. Lacks restraint; impulsive.
PATTERN OF EMOTIONS: High peaks and deep lows.
Depends on the distancer for stability.
RELATIONSHIP EXPECTATIONS: High Expectations of others, low for self.
Believes they "exprct nothing in return" but hold expectations no one could fulfill.
Prone to resentment, bitterness in later years.
Very critical of others
PERSONAL PROBLEM-SOLVING STYLE: Emotional engagement.
Seeks emotionally charged, reactive situations.
Uncomfortable in calm situations.
Tends to provoke reactivity and crises. Generates worry about about everyone and everything.
CONTROL AND MANIPULATION: Controls to protect others from themselves.
Manipulates controls others through guilt, advice, retaliation, criticism and or/submissiveness.
Acts for others "own good." Feels powerless and ultimately incapable. Seeks someone to exert control for and over them.
DECISION MAKING: Difficult, confused, inconsistent. Depends on others to make decisions(parents, partner)
VIEW OF LOVE: Overly romantic. Overlooks practical aspects of relationship.
TYPICAL BELIEF: Love conquers all.
SEXUALTIY: Caring for the partner takes precedence over physical enjoyemnt. sex seen as a sign of caring for and by partner.
SUBSTITUE ACTIVITIES: Overly involved with family, house(for approval), sexual liasons (to feel cared for), medications, particularly tranquilzers
SELF-DECEPTION: Believes living for an extension of partner brings a sense of security, self esteem, contentment.
Believes they can catch a distancer.
DEMEANOR: Assumed invulnerability. Self righteous. In later years bitter, cold, emotionally and physically fatigued. Prone to martydom.
FACIAL CHARACTERISTICS AFTER FOURTY: Stress lines(from turmoil, anger) Fatigued look (from pursuit)
GREATEST RELATIONSHIP DIFFICULTY: Inability to remain univolved, particularly with own children.
TYPICAL STATEMENT: "All I ever needed was a home and to be loved. I'll do whatever I have to do to keep everyone happy.If they really cared about me, they would know what I want"
previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=100.0
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Okay, there is more I was supposed to post. I will put it in two posts.
TRAITS
Emotional Distancer (predominatly male)
SEXUAL STYLE: Pursuit
SENSE OF SELF: On the surface, aggrandized self; strongly individualistic.
In reality, pseudo-individualitic. Individualistic only in a supportive environement, such as at home, in presence of, but but unresponsive to, his partner.
Does things in his own way, through defiance or passive resistance.
A leader and self-initiator.
Sees the world as centered on himself. Tries to be the center of attention. Feels unappreciated.
Overly self concerned and self protective; always looking out for self. Difficulty perceiving others point of view.
Prefers independent activities with buddies not organized group activities. Chooses to be different for its own sake.
Experiences his individuality to the exclusion of relationship.
TRUST: Highly suspicious of others and relationships with them.
Pessimistic about other's motives.
EMOTIONS: Primarily object oriented. Relates to and puts material things first, feeling and people second.
Results in an overemphasis on thinking and logic.
Fear emotions and emotionality. Avoids them.
Unemotional, and affect is elusive. Impossible to tell his feelings by looking at or listening to him.
Only emotions expressed regularly is anger.
Either explosively and briefly or passive-agressively, as if he's not angry when he really is.
Self-gratifing and unresponsive.
Little sympathy for, or empathy with others.
Feels little for others or self.
EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES: Overprotective. Needs a lot of "space"
RELATIONSHIP SKILLS: Lacking
SENSE OF RESPOSIBILITY: Underresponsible; feels little resposibility for his situation or relationship.
Tends to blame others.
Most comfortable emotionally(although not truly happy) behaving like a baby.
CAPACITY TO CHANGE: Lacks insight and/or follow-through.
Inability to adjust. Clings rigidly to position regardless of circumstances.
Resists direct change. Tends to evolve rather than cjhanging directly in response to circumstances.
Will change when faced with loss of significant other.
Rejects advice, couseling. Solutions must come from self.
Frustrates others' efforts to change them.
RYTHYM OF INITIATING CHANGE: Tends to be overly "patient"
Procrastinates. Avoids facing relationship problems.
Prone to relationship paralysis.
PATTERN OF EMOTIONS: Little variation. Tends to be reasonable, but boring. Depends on their pursurer for highs and lows.
RELATIONSHIP EXPECTATIONS: Expects the pursurer to always be there. Prone to despair and self-pity when not fulfilled.
PERSONAL PROBLEM-SOLVING STYLE: Avoidance. Seeks peace, avoids emotional crises. Believes if you ignores a problem long enough it will go away.
CONTROL AND MANIPULATION: Strives to maintain central position to protect self from getting hurt.
Manipulates enviornment to meet their needs.
DECISION MAKING: Decisions made and then clung to regardless of changes in cicumstances.
VIEW OF LOVE: Overemphasizes practical aspects. Minimal expression of love, sharing, or romance, expect when courting or pursuing a distancing partner.
TYPICAL BELIEF: Love is fine, but it doesn't pay the bills.
SEXUALTIY: Physical enjoyment takes precedence over caring.
Sex seen as conquest or performance, not shared experience.
Objectifies Partner.
SUBSTITUE ACTIVITIES: Overly involved with objects, e.g. sports, cars, house(for prestige), work, sexual liasons(conquest), alcohol.
SELF-DECEPTION: Believes overemphasis on individuality brings a sense of security, self esteem, contentment. Fears emotional closeness.
Believes they can evade a pursurer.
DEMEANOR: In later years: boring to be involved with. Arrogant, cynical, pessimistic, negative. Prone to self-pity.
FACIAL CHARACTERISTICS AFTER FOURTY: Appears emotionless. Dark circles under eyes.
GREATEST RELATIONSHIP DIFFICULTY: Denial of problem.
Avoidance of relationship issues.
TYPICAL STATEMENT: "I like myself the way I am and you should too. If you don't like me the way I am, you're free to leave.
I give you a comfortable life, don't sleep around - what more do you want?"
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This is a chapter outline and review.
The Solo Partner, Repairing your Relationship on your own by Phil Deluca .
Chapter 1 The Pain of Change
There can be no Pain Free Solution.
Changes must be the appropriate changes.
Who must change? - Only one person - YOU!
Chapter 2 Self Deception
False Hope - Unrealized Expectations.
Chapter 3 Emotional Reativity
Old Brain vs New Brain
Communications
Chapter 4 Being Defensive
Chapter 5 Togetherness
Balancing I and We
Chapter 6 Who is to Blame
Stating your position without Blaming
Venting to your Partner - not when marriage is in turmoil
Clearly stating your "I" position
Confronting yourself
Chapter 7 Using your Anger constructively
Anger = Unrealized Expectations
Chapter 8 Pursuit and Distance**************
The most important chapter in the book
For every action there is a reaction
80% of Men are sexual pursuers and emotional distancers
The more you pursue the further the distancer moves away.
Pursurers and Distancers exist in almost all relationships
How to stop pursuit and distance - must come from the pursuer.
Distancers tend to change in direct proportion to how much they are pursued
Traits of Distancers and Pursurers
Chapter 9 Stopping Pursuit
Never pursue a distancer
Different phases of distance and pursuit
Conclusion Separation and Reconcilliation
Do not drop your changes
This book really excited me and really brought together the concepts that we learn.
Detachment is key to not pursuing.
The traits in Chapter 8 really help me in what changes I need to make in ME!
Phil Deluca is the first person who really explained what "the changes" are that you need to make when you look in the mirror.
It is not going on a diet or to stop smoking. (although you can do those too)
It is stop your pursuit!!!!
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There has been a lot of talk about "The Solo Partner", particularly on the pursuit/distance chapter. I thought I'd post my thoughts on this book here:
It's a pretty harsh book; it doesn't pull any punches. I think it's one that has to be read slowly, and several times -- it's not one where you can take it all and apply it, even if it does seem to say to do so. It is something that needs to be digested over time. It's pretty unequivocal on the pursuing thing, however, saying to stop completely, no ifs, ands or buts. It takes the "get the pain over with now" approach.
It does point out, rightly, that one has to get the the point of exhaustion, or whatever you want to call it, before you can start applying the advice in the book. You have to hit the point of being so fed up with the current situation that you will do it.
There are good chapters on how you interact with your partner -- the blame game, and one on anger and resentment. There is much useful information there, and worksheets with each chapter to help you actually write it down. I find things that make you write stuff down are much more effective than those where you just think about it.
There are good things about diffusing arguments, etc. It focuses on improving an existing situation, rather than getting someone else to change. It also reinforces what we say here, that you have to focus on yourself for YOU, rather than to change your partner. Any changes in your partner come about because of changes to you, but that isn't the purpose of changing.
The book concentrates solely on what you yourself can do, how you yourself are responsible for your emotions and actions. For example, rather than focus on a cheating partner, it would focus on you for tolerating bad behaviour. That's just one quick example, but that is the idea.
I think it is good as part of the arsenal -- to me combining this with the communication techinques that David Burns (in his "feeling good" books) talks about makes sense. It's about not being drawn into senseless arguments, the way all of us LBS are counselled to learn to not do.
It does point out that the person applying the techniques, particularly nonpursuit, will experience lots of mood swings, depression, and a long list of other symptoms. It says you have to persevere.
Ordinarily I would be wary of something that says you have to follow it wholesale, no questions asked..... but I think this, if taken the right way, is a good book.
As far as MLC goes; the pursuit/distance chapter seems to speak most to those with "clinging boomerangs"; however there is a lot of good advice in the chapters on anger and blame that we can all benefit from. It does assume that the partners are still together; it lists leaving as an alternative to wanting to work on the relationship.
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This is a discussion thread for the book "Forgive for Love" by Dr. Frederic Luskin.
Amazon link for ordering the physical book (http://www.amazon.com/Forgive-Love-Missing-Ingredient-Relationship/dp/B001FOR5U8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308803180&sr=8-1)
Amazon link for purchasing the Kindle ebook (http://www.amazon.com/Forgive-for-Love-ebook/dp/B001140WGG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1308803180&sr=8-3)
iTunes store link for purchasing the iPad/iPhone ebook (http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/forgive-for-love/id363688954?mt=11)
I wanted to get the ball rolling because I feel there are a number of things that Luskin covers in this book that are going to be crucial to we LBSes as we work on ourselves, and that will help either in the reconnecting and rebuilding stage. This will probably be longer than a typical post; I'll see if I can break it into smaller chunks.
The first thing that Luskin covers is his definition of forgiveness. He says that many people have a hard time with forgiveness because while we are taught the benefits of forgiveness or the morality of forgiveness, people rarely talk about the process of forgiveness. People learn what a relationship should be like by observing the ones around them, and they are more likely to learn about harboring resentment and letting small disagreements blow up into huge arguments then they are to learn about being forgiving. Luskin contrasts forgiveness with reconciliation (choosing to continue a relationship) and condoning (accepting the actions of another):
One of the great misconceptions about forgiveness is that it is the same as reconciliation. Reconciliation is deciding whether or not to talk to your lover again after an infidelity. Forgiveness is deciding whether or not to let go of the anger and despair you feel because you did not get the loyal partnership you wanted. Reconciliation means reestablishing a relationship with the person who hurt you. Forgiveness means making peace with a bitter part of your past and no longer blaming your experiences on the offender. (Emphasis mine) You can forgive even if you don’t want to have any further relationship with the person who hurt you. In fact, you do this every time you forgive someone who is dead or someone who has left, never to be seen again.
Forgiving someone does not require that you condone that person’s unkind, inconsiderate, or selfish behavior. To forgive is to let go of the extra suffering you have imposed on yourself after the normal cycle of grief has run its course. (Emphasis mine) You do not have to be a doormat in order to forgive, nor does being forgiving make it okay for your partner to treat you unkindly. You must know how to say no when your lover crosses a boundary and lies to you. If you have condoned your partner’s action, there is no need for forgiveness because you have chosen acceptance instead. We only need to forgive something that we think was the wrong thing to do.
Luskin goes on describes the four stages of developing a forgiving attitude. In short, they are as follows:
1) A loss in your life has caused you to experience anger and hurt, and you feel justified in your negative feelings.
2) You realize that the hurt and anger filling your life after a betrayal feels bad.
3) You you concentrate on how good it can feel to forgive, and deliberately choose to feel the hurt you have experienced for a shorter period.
4) You make a habit of practicing forgiveness with your partner.
I think most of us have been, or are still, in stage one; we are reeling from the shock of the bombs that have been dropped on us. We are angry that our spouse has left or become involved with an OW/OM. We're dodging awkward questions from friends and angry accusations from family members. We are struggling with the realities of the change in our lives, from financial hardships to being the sole caretaker for our children. Many of us can reach, or have reached, stage two when we realize that being angry at our spouse gives them unwarranted power over us, and that our continued anger or pain is hurting us worse than the initial shock; the only way to make that pain end is to forgive them. I would guess that some of the people who are farther into their spouse's MLC have reached or are reaching stage three, where we realize that our spouse is going to continue to do things that hurt or disappoint us, even after MLC, and that they are going to require forgiveness on a regular basis. The pinnacle of this journey is stage four, where we realize we can minimize the amount of hurt we feel by adopting an attitude of forgiveness towards our partner. There are probably a few of us who've made it or are getting close to making it to this stage.
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Luskin has a seven-step process to teaches to help people move through the four stages.
The first step is to realize that your spouse or partner is by your side by choice. You made a choice to allow this person into your life and your heart; you choose to try to build a life together with them, and you realize that commitment requires you to continue to choose to stay with them. In making that choice and sticking by that choice, you are accepting that your spouse can and may do things that hurt you or upset you, whether they are accidental, done out of ignorance, or maybe even done intentionally. We are all human, and we are all capable of doing things in our own self-interest regardless of how it affects the people around us.
Luskin also points out that this decision to marry or be in a long-term relationship was not just a single choice; it is actually part of a chain of decisions that we have made. We decided that we did not want to be alone, that we wanted to be in a relationship. We may have dated one person, or a succession of people, until we found someone that seemed like a good match, so we decided to spend more time with that person to get to know them better. At some point we evaluate the benefits of continuing the relationship versus ending it to look for a better one; if the pros outweigh the cons, we decide continue the relationship. We commit to the relationship by making regular decisions whether or not to continue the relationship.
There are three uncomfortable facts about any relationship. First, entering a relationship entails risk. Even if you and your partner are made for each other, there are factors that you cannot control that can put strain on a relationship. Second, all relationships will end, either by dissolution or divorce, or by the death or either or both partners. Finally, you cannot control what your partner says or does.
Although these sound discouraging, I think they should motivate us to seek harmony in the relationship whenever possible because we never know what problems may lay ahead, we don't know how long we will have with our partners, and we know there will be times when our partners will not do what we want. If you are going to choose to be in a relationship with someone with these three facts hanging over you, why not choose to try to make the relationship as happy as can be?
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Thanks SS. It is extremely helpful to have it broken down like this - the question I have is that although I rationally agree with everything here and I actively try to "live in forgiveness" for H, even as he spirals further and further from me in his R with OW, but there are only some moments when my desire to forgive is aligned with my feelings. I still get enraged at times and think of ways to pay him back (there is nothing, of course, or nothing that would not have bad repurcussions for a whole lot more people). I don't do anything and of course that bitterness hurts me, but I keep hoping that if I keep reiterating that I forgive H and that I try to think forgiving thoughts, then eventually there will be more regular and ultimately almost constant alignment. Do you think that is how it works?
I rationally understand forgiving and letting go, but I guess my ego is quite strong or something because I sometimes feel like one of those cartoons with a devil and an angel on each shoulder, saying "forgive", "NO! don't forgive, revenge"...
I feel like I have been acting "as if" forever and I wish I no longer needed to act...
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StandandDeliver,
These are good questions, and I hope that my future posts breaking down the rest of the book will provide some clarity.
I welcome people to find copies of the book and read it for themselves and contribute to the discussion; this is why I put the ordering info at the top.
I should also point out that those of us dealing with MLCing spouses are probably on the extreme edge of what Luskin has dealt with; at the same time, I think we're also people who can benefit greatly by adopting the strategies he discusses within.
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The second step that Luskin describes is to recognize that this person that you have chosen to share your life with is imperfect; that imperfection means that they will say and do things to disappoint you, make you angry, or hurt you.
The first cause for this is the simple fact that everyone is different. The differences can be profound (different ethnic or cultural background, different religious upbringing) or simple (one partner preferring to pick up their dirty clothes while the other leaves them lying around, one partner loves Thai food while the other can't stand it). Those differences mean that they will see the world differently than you, react differently than you, and have different priorities than you. The second cause is that people make mistakes. They can be little mistakes (forgetting to run the dishwasher, losing your car keys) or large mistakes (forgetting to pay a bill, getting into an auto accident) but they will happen. This means that, even if you and your partner as the most compatible people ever, you will still find yourself becoming angry or upset by their actions. The third cause is that people inevitably act out of their own self-interest. Your partner decides to stay out late with friends and doesn't call to let you know; they buy a new laptop or take their parents out to dinner without telling you; they pass up a promotion that means better hours or more money because they like the position they have. (The obvious example in our cases would be the Replaying spouse who is carrying on an affair, consumed with drinking/drugs/gambling, or otherwise "getting to live their life".)
If you add your attitudes, your mistakes, and your self-interest to those of your partner it makes matters even worse. How does anyone manage to stay together? The answer is forgiveness -- both of your partner's shortcomings and your own. ("And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us.") This doesn't mean that you should keep quiet about the things that bother you, but forgiving them for what they did before you have that talk will prevent emotion from clouding the discussion. If you are angry or upset, your body's fight-or-flight reflex is preparing you for conflict as it cannot tell the difference between stress caused by actual danger and stress caused by heightened emotions; if you and your partner are both agitated when you discuss a problem, the emotional reactivity can cause the argument to spiral beyond the original complaint.
Even though you are your partner come from different backgrounds, have differing opinions, and are capable of hurting the other accidentally or out of thoughtlessness, these differences and complaints do not have to cause a major problem in the relationship. Liking Thai food while your spouse does not doesn't have to cause a heated argument, so why does it? The answer lies in how you handle the differences and conflicts.
The biggest cause of anger or frustration that lasts long after the complaint or offense that causes it is attempting to enforce "unenforceable rules." Luskin describes this as a personal opinion or desire that is expressed as something that our partner "must" or "must not" do. When your partner breaks one of your unenforceable rules, it compounds the anger and resentment; it's not just that your partner lied to you, but that you have an expectation that they must not lie to you. The lie that your partner told is their responsibility; your expectation that they must not lie is yours.
Ask yourself who or what in your relationship must change for you to be happy, and you will discover your unenforceable rules. Ask yourself these questions:
1. Am I demanding that my partner treat me better than he/she does?
2. Am I demanding that my past with my partner be better than it was?
3. Am I demanding that my life with my partner be easier than it is?
4. Am I demanding that our relationship be fairer than I feel it is?
When you find yourself thinking in any of these ways, you have pinpointed an unenforceable rule.
The problem with unenforceable rules is that they are neither right nor reasonable; if they were, then people would adhere to them. An unenforceable rule is not the same as a wish or desire; hoping for a quiet night at home after a long day at work is not the same as getting angry because your spouse invited your in-laws over for dinner and didn't tell you.
(I'm going to step away from the book for a second and make it clear that I don't think that setting boundaries is the same thing as trying to enforce unenforceable rules. A boundary is not about what your partner does or does not do, but what you will or will not accept. Sometimes I see people trying to state their unenforceable rules as "boundaries", so I hope people read for themselves and try to grasp what Luskin is saying.)
Fortunately, is it simple to recognize and work to eliminate unenforceable rules. The first step is to acknowledge that you are angry or upset; this helps you to identify your unenforceable rule at the time it is being broken. The second step is to recognize that your anger is due to the fact that the rule has been broken. The third step is to be willing to change your unenforceable rules and lessen the amount of anger or frustration you feel. (This is not the same thing as forgiving or condoning that act that broke the rule.) The final step is to figure out how to hold onto the enforceable desire and get rid of the unenforceable demand. This can be simple as substituting the words "wish" or "hope" for "must" or "have to".
Unenforceable rule:
* My partner must not lie to me.
Enforceable desire:
* I hope that my partner does not lie to me.
By changing an unenforceable rule to an enforceable desire, you accept that your partner is imperfect and can or may disappoint you. But this should make it easier to deal with the specific complaint or problem without your emotions being clouded by the frustration of trying to enforce behavior that you have no control over.
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The third step Luskin describes is the one that may take the most effort for LBSes in our current situations but I think this is a good step to practice, even now.
Once you have recognized that your partner is in your life by choice, and that you partner is capable of letting you down or making you angry, you should take time to note the positive things that your partner does for you.
We are more likely to notice our partner's actions and choices when they do things that disappoint or frustrate us. By focusing on the fact that our partner doesn't clean the hair trap out of the shower like we wanted, we forget all the times that they offered to clean the kitchen after dinner; by getting upset that our partner is too tired to play with the kids after getting home from work, we overlook all the times they stayed up with the kids when they were sick so we could get a good night's sleep. Taking their good actions and choices for granted and focusing on the bad ones is poison to a relationship.
You can also take pride in, and be thankful for, the things that you have done as a couple. You could have wonderful kids, a nice car, and a big house; you could have enough money coming in to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. Those things could not have happened without your partner. Love is demonstrated by the partner's choice to go beyond our expectations. If our partners did only exactly what we wanted of them, is that love or obedience?
Luskin notes that research shows that people are more likely to remember the negative parts of a relationship than the positive ones, and that most couples need five positive experiences for each negative experience in order to feel the relationship is healthy. Recognizing the good things that your partner has done, and the things they continue to do, makes you feel grateful for your partner. Feeling grateful towards them can make it easier to forgive them for the times they mess up or let you down.
There are three ways you can appreciate your partner such that it will increase your willingness to forgive. The first is to recognize the specific good that your partner does for you; all the things they do to cheer you up, help you out, and make you feel special or loved. The second way is to recognize the good that they do for others; maybe they're a good parent, or are considered a valuable employee at work. Maybe they donate blood regularly; maybe they turned someone's lost wallet in to the police department. The third way is to simply acknowledge their positive attributes in general. Are they generous? Cheerful? Humble? Courteous?
It can be hard to feel grateful for your partner's positive qualities, especially in the throes of MLC where many of those qualities aren't evident or are directed an an OW/OM, so Luskin provides a list of "gratitude exercises" to practice:
* Walk into your nearest supermarket or health food store and give thanks for the abundance of food available.
* When you go into any large shopping area or store, marvel at the choices available and how little you have to do to purchase things.
* Pass by a nursing home or hospital and give thanks for your good health.
* When driving, mentally thank each driver who follows the rules of the road.
* If you have a good friend, thank that person for caring for you.
* Remind yourself of any kindnesses done by your parents.
* Notice a salesperson or store clerk and thank that person for waiting on you.
* In your home, give thanks for all of the labor that went into making your furniture, appliances, and food.
* When you wake up each morning, give thanks for your breath and the gift of your life.
* Notice the gifts of nature on a regular basis.
The more attuned you are to feeling grateful for the blessings and positive things in your life, the easier it will be to recover from anger and disappointment.
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SS, thank you for so going through this so thoroughly. I have the book on my list to buy; these were the types of things that I thought I should be working on anyway, and it is good to see them all in one place.
I have been needing to work on forgiveness with regards to my FOO as well; possibly even more so.
I've been wondering about his other book "Forgive for Good"; wondering if that is the same principles applied to other areas.
From what I see, this book is directed at partners in a committed relationship; do you feel it applies even when one partner has said that they don't consider themselves in that relationship at all? I realise that the principles of forgiveness apply anyway, but that's the bit that I was wondering about here.
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I want to look at "Forgive for Good" next; I don't know anything about the book but I bet it's about applying his forgiveness principles in life in general.
I think these principles apply in our situation, even if some of the things he describes are going to be challenging, if not impossible, to work on right now. Even if our spouses do not consider themselves in a committed relationship, we do. We can only do things to bolster our side of the relationship. If anything, the part where we know that our spouses are imperfect and can and will do things that disappoint or hurt us is pretty much a guarantee at this point...
Something else we need to come to terms with is this: even if our spouses were to turn around overnight and instantly snap out of the fog, that doesn't change anything that has happened. The affairs and infidelities are a fact; the arguments and angry words have been spoken. The missed special events such as anniversaries, birthdays, and those special moments with our kids cannot be reclaimed. In my opinion, it's important to put the discussion of reconciliation and rebuilding off until our spouses are ready for it, but I think there is plenty of room to work on forgiveness now and work on dispelling the anger and resentment that may be building up in each of our lives.
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I think there is plenty of room to work on forgiveness now and work on dispelling the anger and resentment that may be building up in each of our lives.
I think you've got it here.... this is what I need to work on. The longer this goes on, the more "things" happen, the more there is the chance to build up anger and resentment.
I think this is the crux of what I've been feeling lately.
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I think you've got it here.... this is what I need to work on. The longer this goes on, the more "things" happen, the more there is the chance to build up anger and resentment.
I think this is the crux of what I've been feeling lately.
This is what motivated me to start posting even before I finished reading the book. Hopefully people will start looking at the state of their feelings for their MLCer and work on forgiveness.
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In step four, Luskin asks us to go beyond the abstract notion of choosing to love and forgive our partners, and focus on one quality of our partner that we do not like. He points out that a marriage is unlike the other family relationships we are in -- parent and child or siblings -- in that we choose the person we are married to, and we enter the relationship as equals. (Even among siblings, older siblings and young siblings may relate differently.)
(Emphasis mine) When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part. However, relationships can founder when this contract to forgive is not understood and followed by both partners. Good relationships are precious, and all relationships are difficult to maintain, so we forgive our partner because of the love we feel and our desire to sustain the relationship. The dismal marriage statistics attest to how difficult it is to sustain an intimate partnership and prove that good relationships require effort and hard work. Over time people forget to appreciate each other, and their bad qualities emerge. Forgiveness is built around the idea that we do not have to escalate feelings of hurt and disappointment into outrage or depression.
One way we can work to make it easier to forgive mistakes and bad behavior is to view our partner's actions in the best possible light. We can view our partners in a loving manner by realizing that they are flawed or hurting individuals who make mistakes, not cruel and hurtful people who intend to cause harm. (I think this is a perfect description of MLC!)
Another way is to deepen your understanding of your partner. Talk with them regularly about the other aspects of their life; their family, their work, their hobbies, or your kids. The better you know your partner, the more likely you will be able to empathize with and forgive them.
(Although it's not mentioned in this chapter, yet another way would be to challenge the unenforceable rules we try to impose on them.)
He describes a thought-changing technique, PERT (Positive Emotion Refocusing Technique) that can be employed to soothe frustration before discussing a problem with your partner. If you practice PERT, both when taking a break from an argument and when you are alone, it can help calm you physically, which should lead to a calmer emotional state as well. A brief summary from the book:
1. Bring your attention to your stomach as you slowly draw two slow, deep breaths in and out.
2. As you inhale, allow the air to gently push your belly out. As you exhale, consciously relax your belly so that it feels “soft.”
3. On the third full and deep inhalation, bring to your mind’s eye an image of someone you love (but are not currently upset with) or of a beautiful scene in nature that fills you with awe and peace.
4. Visualize first and then try to feel in your body the love or awe you have. It is optimal to center these feelings in the area around your heart.
5. While practicing this visualization, continue with slow and soft belly breathing.
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(It's been really busy at work the past day or two, so I haven't had time to follow up...)
The fifth step that Luskin describes is familiar to people in twelve-step programs and grief counseling: accept what you cannot change about your partner and grieve the loss.
As I mentioned earlier, there are things about your partner and your relationship that you cannot change. You cannot undo the lying or the alcohol abuse; you can't make the affair or medical emergency go away. You are better served by focusing on the things about your partner and your relationship that you can change.
(Emphasis mine) The serenity prayer asks us to think about how much unhappiness we are willing to experience trying to change things we have no control over. The average age for first marriage in the United States now is between twenty-four and twenty-six, and there are multiple remarriages at all ages. This means that our partners had plenty of time to develop their personalities before we came on the scene. (Emphasis mine) Our partners may not change a long-term disagreeable quality just because it bothers us or we find it wrong.
The serenity prayer asks us to use wisdom in order to determine what we can and cannot change. It may be a one-time or occasional thing (your partner broke a family heirloom or forgets to put the mail out to be collected) or it may be a long-standing habit or quality (drug addiction, estrangement from your family, anger management issues). It may even be something that you can deal with on a normal basis but can overwhelm you at times (your partner's inattentiveness towards the kids is more frustrating when you are sick in bad and can't look after them; your partner chooses not to go with you to a class reunion that you are dreading). When that happens, you must accept that the injury or insult happened and allow yourself to feel that angry or sadness, then you must grieve for the loss (you will be unhappy and lonely at the class reunion; the heirloom your partner broke cannot be repaired) and must move on. You must accept the possibility that some relationships do not turn out the way you hoped or should not continue.
Sometimes, using PERT can help you get over the emotions resulting from a betrayal or an insult. Other times (the death of a family member, being forced to declare bankruptcy, your partner asks for a divorce) the shock can be too much to overcome easily. Luskin describes an extended version of the PERT process, HEAL, intended to help people move through the grieving process.
The first component is Hope, where you make a statement of what you had hoped or intended to happen. The H statement reminds us of the goal that was intended, and reminds us that nothing is guaranteed in life. An H statement should be worded as a positive and deliberate action result, not something that was to be avoided:
Poor: "I wanted avoid declaring bankruptcy"
Good: "I wanted to manage our medical bills effectively"
An H statement should be personal and specific:
Poor: "I wanted a faithful marriage"
Good: "I wanted my partner to be honest with me about their relationship with OM/OW"
It should concern something specific that your partner said or did, not a trait or quality of your partner:
Poor: "I wanted my partner to be thoughtful"
Good: "I wanted my partner to remember my birthday without me nagging"
The next component is Educate, where you make a statement that reminds you that there are limits to your control over your partner, yourself, and your life. You are acknowledging that although you have a particular hope, you might not get what you want. You accept that your hope may turn out worse, or better, or exactly as you wanted. Examples of good E statements:
H statement:
"I wanted to manage our medical bills effectively"
E statement:
"I accept the fact that serious emergencies can arise without warning."
H statement:
"I wanted my partner to remember my birthday without me nagging."
E statement:
"I understand that people can be forgetful."
An E statement should acknowledge that there is an impartial reality that can affect our hopes and wishes; it should not cast blame on your partner or be an attempt to engage in self-pity. The H statement and E statement may cause you to be angry or upset; take time to express those emotions before continuing. You may have to give some time between the offensive act and the attempt to grieve.
The next component is to Affirm, where you recognize the positive intention for staying in the situation or relationship.
To find your positive intention, ask the following question: how would my life be better if I was able to improve the situation that is causing me pain? You could also ask yourself: what is my reason for being in this situation in the first place?
H statement:
"I wanted to manage our medical bills effectively"
E statement:
"I accept the fact that serious emergencies can arise without warning."
A statement:
"I wanted to spare my partner the worry of managing money and making tough decisions about their health"
H statement:
"I wanted my partner to remember my birthday without me nagging."
E statement:
"I understand that people can be forgetful."
A statement:
"I wanted my partner to feel that I think he is reliable and thoughtful."
The L statement is the Long-Term intention, where you simply state your commitment to follow the positive intention of your A statement and to use the HEAL method and other skills to do so. It can usually be as simple as "I make the long-term commitment to follow my positive intention and use the HEAL method." Occasionally, you may have to commit to learning new skills in order to prosper. These can be things like seeking guidance from someone who has suffered the same type of injury or loss as you, to ask a friend or family member to point out when you are complaining too much, or to give yourself a specific period of time to reflect on the injury or loss.
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The final step that Luskin describes is the choice to recommit to your partner and the relationship. He points out that a good relationship is worth forgiving your partner for insults and mistakes, and coming to terms with annoying habits.
Eery relationship has its ups and downs, and you may have to recommit to your partner frequently; every time they wear the shirt that you don't like, or get into the same argument with your parents. Sometimes forgiveness can be as simple as saying to yourself "it's no big deal" and moving on; other times you may need to communicate your frustration or unhappiness to your partner. Many emotional reactions are necessary and healthy, such as being angry when your partner hangs up on you during an argument or being shocked when you find evidence of an affair. But how you respond after that initial reaction says as much about you as it does your partner; telling your partner that you're unhappy about their decision to stay out late with friends will be more constructive than complaining to your parents about how selfish your partner is.
Finding Your Positive Intention
1. Find a quiet place where you can be undisturbed for about five minutes.
2. Practice PERT once or twice to get yourself into a relaxed and open-hearted frame of mind.
3. Ask the loving part of yourself: what is my reason for having the particular grievance I have right now?
4. Write down your response in positive terms only, then edit until you have a one- or two-sentence positive intention.
5. Promise yourself that you will not tell the grievance story any longer.
6. Practice telling the positive intention story to yourself a couple of times before you share it with anyone else.
Sometimes, self-forgiveness is necessary; your partner was careless with your laptop and dropped it, but you yelled at them for half an hour because of it. Maybe you have a hard time being intimate with your partner because your previous spouse was emotionally abusive. You can use the techniques Luskin described such as PERT and HEAL to forgive yourself as well as others.
Being forgiving of yourself is just as important as being forgiving of your partner. The key to both is to take more responsibility for your feelings, focus on the positive intention, and accept that things can happen that are outside of your control.
(The rest of the book is a general afterword and citations for some of the facts and studies he cites. Questions? Thoughts?)
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SS, I've started reading this. Right now I'm just at the beginning, where it talks about becoming a more forgiving person in general. I may have to re-read, but I'm sure I'll have some thoughts on this.
But some general things -- I noticed that this is quite a new book, 2009 if I'm right. So it wasn't even around when my ordeal started. I wonder if this will be another revelation, the way the Love Languages was for me....
This isn't nearly as easy a read -- the LL book was eye-opening; not least for the reason that it's not rocket science to realise that we have different LLs, and that we need to love our partners the way they need.
This is a harder concept, but may have a similar effect. The LLs were very simple to explain and simple to understand.
However, I've found that just by thinking about it and only having quickly read your synopsis I'm already thinking a bit differently. I wonder what difference it will make to my outlook?
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Thanks for posting this discussion. I've not previously heard of this book. I purchased a book on forgiveness some months ago (can't recall the name right now), but felt I needed more. This maybe it.
I'm "afraid" to bring out the love languages book again. H was pretty nasty about some of it when we were first reconnecting. I know what I need to know from it.
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The quote that prompted me to share the book is the one that I added to my signature.
I have found myself saying the same thing several times as this crisis has progressed. Someone asked a question on another divorce forum a long time ago:
"If your spouse came back to you, could you forgive them for leaving/having an affair?"
To me, it was simple; if I could never forgive my wife for the EA or for moving out, why did I want to stay married to her?
(To be clear, the realization that I could forgive her was the simple part; we'll see how the actual forgiveness goes when the time comes.)
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SS,
I've know at a number of points along this journey that I could forgive my H; there are times that I think that the longer this goes on the more damage is done, but I also know that I've thought that at a number of points, and then something has happened that has shown me beyond doubt that I could forgive.
Especially if forgiveness was asked for. My H asked me at around the 6-month mark (now years ago) if I could forgive, and that was before I knew ANYTHING about what he had been up to. I said yes, and meant it.
Even after he gave me the back story, at 2.5 years, I knew I could forgive. At around that point he was talking a lot to others (such as his newphew, whose father left when he was 18 months old) that they needed to forgive those who had abandoned them. It was pointed out to me that he was very worried that he wouldn't be forgiven himself.
But that is, as you say, the easy part -- if they were to show remorse and ASK for forgiveness.
What I'm hoping to get from this book is a sense of how to forgive when the betrayer doesn't ask for it, or show remorse or repentance. I.e. how to forgive when they are determined not to come back, etc.
How to forgive without becoming a doormat. How to forgive, knowing I have to live with what I don't want. How to forgive when I have relatively frequent contact, which means that I am constantly reminded that I have to live with what I don't want.
And so on.
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Solo Partner
I know that this book has been on the reading list forever.
I'm embarrassed to say that I purchased it...but hadn't read it, until today.
It's a pretty quick read. I plan to read it again. Wish I had read it before my H moved out...but, whatever.
The chapter on Pursuit and Distance is EXCELLENT!
It really explains the relationship dynamic...that I was caught up in. Maybe, you have been, too.
The only thing......it isn't speaking specifically about MLC - as it informs the reader if, after 4 months of non-pursuit, the distancer has not began pursuit, then there is no love anymore...time to move on. For Non- MLC situations, maybe this may be true. But, for MLC - NOTHING (or little) can really happen in 4 months. So, don't take that to heart.
Otherwise....Excellent book. It described (almost to a TEE) how I felt when I first began to NOT pursue my H. I went through everything the book described.
I was afraid of being alone........
The book explains to the Pursuer (that means YOU....LBSers) - to STOP. Otherwise the relationship is doomed. You may stay together...but never be truly happy. Most of the time, you will break up.
Anyway - as a Moderator - I am embarrassed to say that I just read the book...but I did and it was right on target.
Newbies - DON'T do what i did. Read it.
Hugs,
Limitless
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This is not a book about Standing for MLCers.
Limitless pointed out that the 4-month deadline isn't necessarily applicable to MLCers; they can go for a lot longer than that before coming out of the tunnel.
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I can't find any links to Kindle or other ebook versions, but here is a link for the paperback version on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Solo-Partner-Repairing-Your-Relationship/dp/0881791296
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It's a new book, so you'll have to see if your library has or will get it, or buy it new... But I have to say of the hundreds of books I've read in the past two years, it's one of the best (not for writing, that is actually not so good, and you have to be a little patient in the beginning, but focus on the examples). The advice applies to EVERY aspect of your life, but it is so relevant for talking to your partner and kids. And when you read the Law of Personal Limitations, it will totally resonate with standing and what you are all trying to accomplish.
You never know why you are called to do the things you do, but for whatever reason, on Saturday, I HAD to go to the library, have not been in months, and I found that book and Invisible Men which I just started. After reading that book I feel a sense of clarity and strength that I have never had before--I finally get him--and I am prepared to go into a mediation session with exH tomorrow. A week ago I felt scared, defeated and sad at the prospect of having to sit across from him, but thanks to this book and a bunch of other stuff, like a few posts here, I did a complete 180!
Anyhoo, check it out, I promise you will not be sorry! Love and light, Lisa
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Beyond Blame is by Carl Alasko who also wrote the book Emotional BS. Addis is the author of Invisible Men, but I am not sure I want to recommend it yet, I only just started...
I decided to go ahead and post the Law of Personal Limitations so you understand why I think it's so relevant! He has a website too, if you google him, the law, or emotional BS!
"Everyone is always doing as well as they can within their personal limitations, their personal history, what they know and don’t know, and what they’re feeling in that moment. If they could make a healthier decision, they would. This includes you."
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Thanks, Lisa, for this -- I've read a lot, but hadn't come across these. From what it says on Amazon this looks really good, and I've ordered it.
I've read similar things in David Burns' "Feeling Good" and the "Feeling Good Handbook", where it has a section on communication. Those are CBT approach books, however, and this seems a bit more direct.
I really liked FG, by the way; those helped me greatly.
I remember their one thing about communication approach was to "win by losing; remember to surrender" -- i.e. don't get defensive, remember to validate, etc. A lot of what is taught here, actually....
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I've started reading this, and it is looking like a really good resource. I haven't got the bit where he tells you what to DO yet, but it looks promising.
Although it is of course having the effect of making me realise the times I DID express myself badly....
But that is par for the course, I think.
More useful in our relationships with our kids to set a good example, etc., I also think.
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The more I read this the more I like it. It really is sensible.
It's a lot of what we discuss here, about responding rather than reacting, and it gives good, practical advice.
I'm not done yet, but it seems solid.
It also makes the point that "anyone can sabotage anything", meaning that if one side is determined not to make things work then it really doesn't matter how "good" the other side is.
We can take that to mean that if our MLC spouses aren't willing, there really isn't anything we can do save for pay attention to our own behaviour, which is eminently sensible.
Of course, it also works the other way round: if we ourselves are hell-bent on one course of action there isn't anything anyone else can do, so if something sensible is presented to us and we reject it just because it comes from our MLC spouse and we are determined to find fault, then it won't work either.
The book is also good because it doesn't blame the reader...
Get this one, says she.
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Wow just went to his web site and read the emotional bull$h!te self test. Yikes, sounds all too familiar for frankly both myself and H. Yikes, more self-help reading on my end! Wow, what I could see yes that was me then, it is not me now. Progress, but need to make more.
Great find!
Sassy
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Just bought and downloaded this book to my new Sony eReader that i got for christmas and have read first 2 chapters. Already I don't want to put it down. Not sure if it is going to help me but something has to shift my thinking because I can't stop blaming myself for all of this and I do wonder if h left because he blamed himself for all the problems and couldn't see a way out. Looking at our upbringings both of us grew up with a lot of blame. Me with a sibling who picked on and blamed me for everything, I was never good enough. And H grew up with parents who had a toxic relationship that until this day blame each other for everything and nothing is ever their fault.
Anyway, hoping this book might help shift my thinking a bit.
Ez xx
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I'm almost done with this, and think it is great. It has specific chapters about blame in a marriage, with children, and in a work situation; it also talks a lot about the Law of Personal Limitations that LL brought up in the first post here.
I like this book because it is practical, and non-threatening -- it practices what it preaches, in that it doesn't blame us for having used blame, if that makes sense.
I will be looking at it again and again to fully "get" the idea of Positive Accountability rather than blame; it is of course useful with out spouses, but even more so with our children and in our own lives -- it helps us set a good example. Particularly good with teens, with everything they are going through regardless of this MLC mess. I hope I can put it to good use to give them some serious life skills.
so a big thumbs up here!
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Hi,
Just found and downloaded this last night. Finished it today.
It's fascinating. Probably not MLC, but very interesting to read. We get to read both sides of the situation. The wife is struggling with discontent that is deep within her. Eventually has an affair, leaves, divorces.
Reinforces my belief that God has a plan for me with all of this. Though I still don't know what it is...
Here's them talking about their experience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qRPbBbBJis
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There was an interesting article in the Sunday paper on the 20th about oxytocin -- a professor of neuroscience, Paul Zak, has written a new book called The Moral Molecule, and among other things says that
"When one person extends himself to another in a trusting way, the person being trusted experiences a surge in oxytocin that makes him less likely to hold back and less likely to cheat. In short, the feeling of being trusted makes a person more trustworthy. It becomes a virtuous cycle."
I found this interesting because I'd always thought of oxytocin as the hormone that was released during physical contact, and it was really insteresting to read that
"What our work has demonstrated is that you don't need to shoot a chemical up someone's nose, or have sex with them, or even give them a hug, to create the surge in oxytocin that leads to more generous behaviour. Fortunately, all you have to do to trigger oxytocin release is show someone that you trust them."
This was a scientific study, with measurable results, etc. I know quite a few here are interested in the science/brain aspect of this, so this fits in there as well.
I can't put a link to the article on here because it must be too soon; it's still a subscription service, but the book apparently comes out tomorrow (May 24th).
As RCR is writing about trust, I was re-reading the articles on trust and REPAIR and this seemed to fit in. It was interesting for me personally as I also, BEFORE having read this, had decided to 'extend myself to my H in a trusting way'.
Now it didn't miraculously turn him around, but it did have a positive effect on our interactions.
There's a lot more there; he also talks about the effect of this on society as a whole, the importance of group identity, and so on.
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T&l,
Thanks for posting about this. It sounds very interesting and I will keep a look out for the book.
I'm not surprised by this "discovery." Since immediately post BD, I've noticed H's monster spew would stop if I was kind to him in the midst of it. It was almost comical. He'd be in the middle of some nasty rant about me and if I simply said, "I hear you. I'm sorry you feel that way" he would calm down and start to apologize.
I found I could turn a nasty conversation around immediately by changing my behavior to him from confrontational/accusatory to acceptance and kindness. It definitely was a "trust" thing.
Problem for me was I was often so angry I couldn't be calm enough to do it! Anger is a defensive emotion and it feels "right" when you're being attacked. Being kind feels counter intuitive.
Just last week, on Mother's Day, my H sent me a short but sweet email. This was the first personal interaction (I've been NC except for admin issues) we've had in three months. Since he had made the first step, and it was kind, I decided to be kind in return.
I wrote him a newsy email about what I'm doing and he immediately wrote back profusely thanking me for the update and did something he hadn't done since BD 16 months ago. He made a joke! (He could always make me laugh, it was one of our primary bonding emotions.)
So the relationship between trust and oxytocin makes sense to me.
TMHP
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It makes sense to me as well, and yes, it is counter-intuitive. I think this is one time when I really understand what "counter-intuitive" means!
All I know is I was kind, and when it's done truthfully, it shows, and it does make a difference.
It does NOT mean being a doormat.
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This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot; it's also sort of along the lines of what's discussed in "Emotional Bull$hit" (Carl Alasko) -- that any interactions need to be 80% thought and only 20% feeling. And that there is always one question you need to ask before saying anything, which is "what do I need from this right now?" The default answer is always "to bring this person closer to me" and "serenity". Which of course indicates being kind.
Which indicates that if you come forth with trust, you are more likely to be met with trust. And so on. Like he says, virtuous circle.
Again, this isn't doormat.
The hard part is, of course, if kindness and trust are met with monster, or if we've had so much bad stuff that it just gets hard to find good stuff. But somehow I think it means presenting the bad stuff in a neutral way, which is of course, the good old "responding rather than reacting"....
Funny how that comes round so often :)
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In 2007--when Sweetheart was home for the year--I was speaking to a counselor and explaining that Sweetheart would become trustworthy because I trusted him. Trust creates or enables trustworthiness.
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You can see Paul Zak speak about this on Ted Talks, you should be able to find it on YouTube, its also on netflix.
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Trust creates or enables trustworthiness.
We trusted our spouses
Our spouses cheated on us
Therefore "trust creates or enables trustworthiness" can not be true, at least not universally.
honour
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Trust creates or enables trustworthiness.
We trusted our spouses
Our spouses cheated on us
Therefore "trust creates or enables trustworthiness" can not be true, at least not universally.
honour
You left out this part
explaining that Sweetheart would become trustworthy because I trusted him. Trust creates or enables trustworthiness.
So it is faith in the future
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I wonder if the book addresses this? As it's only just come out I haven't read it; I may do so at some point.
I think it talks more about the effects of oxytocin in general; those are different in different people, much like drugs or any hormone, etc.
We hear a lot about the physical effects of menopause, male andropause, etc., we all know that each person is affected differently -- how menopause affects women is a prime example. Some come through without anything, others struggle for years and years and years.
So I'd imagine that oxytocin is another one; some people experience a greater surge than others. I don't know, of course, but I'd think that.
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I've been interested in self change, and while following a recommendation on this site from Niek about brain waves, I came across another book called "Gamma Healing: Eliminate Subconscious Limiting Beliefs, Anxiety Fear and Doubt in Less Than 5 Minutes"
It was easy and engaging to read, and although I was sceptical because of his one-sided arguments, I wanted it to be true. I suppose that's the point, really.
The author, Chris Walton, sets out to convince the reader that they can change fundamental self-limiting beliefs about themselves, and that they can do this with his "scientific" technique of Gamma healing. He then sets out to convince the reader that his technique is based on new science by discussing the mind, consciousness, energy systems, and so on. His basic premise is that beliefs govern feelings, behaviour and biology, but are mostly unconscious, although we can become aware of them and change them; that mind can affect matter (through the placebo effect); that we can change our reactions through the emotional freedom technique (tapping), which is based on meridian points used in acupuncture; and that we can change our beliefs by thinking about them in the "whole brain posture", and subsequently test them using muscle testing techniques. If you are convinced that this works, it can be due in no small part to the pseudoscience in the first 160 pages of the book.
We are now familiar with concepts such as the subconscious, the placebo effect, acupuncture points, and the author plays on this familiarity to extend notions beyond that which has been scientifically validated. He fails to discuss the limitations of each point, and used the idea only to reinforce his own point. The truth is that yes, the placebo effect exists, but no, the placebo effect doesn't always work. Yes, the effect of the mind on our physical and mental health is important, but no, our mind cannot do everything. Yes, our mind is incredibly versatile, but no, not infinitely so. Yes, the universe, and matter itself is made of energy, yes, there are connections, but not in the simplistic way outlined in this book. Yes, it is now true that there are neurons in the heart, but no, it doesn't mean that our heart has thoughts (the neurons are essential for how it beats); yes, we've now gone beyond the mechanistic view that DNA controls personality, but no, it doesn't mean its all down to our beliefs (biology can still limit us); perceptions are important, but they develop through an interplay with the culture. We come to believe what we believe because of that, and these beliefs can limit who we think we are and what we can do. However, as Walton rightly says, most of these beliefs are unconscious. But if beliefs are unconscious, they don't become conscious so by thinking about them (try reading "Strangers to Ourselves" by Timothy Wilson).
Finally, muscle testing (see Applied kinesiology), meridian lines, and emotional freedom techniques (tapping) are unproved by science, researchers finding that their effects are no better than a placebo (and remember, placebos don't always work). Gamma waves themselves are indeed associated with meditation, but are not so easy to change as Walton suggests. Meditation can be a truly powerful tool, but it requires training and extensive practice to have a deep and lasting effect. Try " Mindfulness in Plain English" by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana.
While it is true that we can all make profound changes in how we think and act, convincing ourselves that it is possible is half the battle. If you achieve it through "Gamma Healing", then the placebo effect is really working on you.
Gamma healing is not science, just magical thinking.
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3/18/10
Read a book called "Male menopause" by Jed Diamond. I would highly recommend it to everyone
on this board. I never thought that I was going through menopause but the more I read this book I found out how wrong I was. We are going through the same thing as our spouses. The science of it is much slower than the female version but it is the same. The lessons that we are learning as the LBS all contribute to our passing though this time of our life. We need to do things to pass though our middle life transition to the beginning of the next part of our life but none the less it is all there. As I read of everyone's trials and tribulations with their spouses or ex-s I realize that we all must "grow up". This book is helping me to see what is happening much more clearly!
There are parts on sleeping patterns, snoring, mentoring, hormones, and of course sex. There is a companion book that I am going to read next called "Surviving Male Menopause for men and women" I will report on that when I get done. There is also a huge resource section for all sorts of things related to this.
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3/30/2010 from DB
I am just about finished reading "Surviving Male Menopause" by Jed Diamond. I wanted put some quotes here for all to read.
15 Things you can do to help once male menopause is recognized
There is no magic formula that works for everyone.
1.Recognize the similarities and differences between male and female menopause.
2.Have patience, din't give up when things become difficult
3.Be gentle and kind with yourself and your man.
4. Recognize that this is probably the most difficult and confusing time of life for both of you.
5.Take good care of yourself. Attend to your own needs and feel good on seven levels - hormonally,physically,emotionally,interpersonally, sexually,socially, and spiritually.
6. Accept that he will be resistant at first to the concept of male menopause.
7. He likely will be concerned at first with one or two aspects of male menopause.
8. Listen to his concerns. It is tempting to want him to do something. Remember the first step to action is acknowledging there is a problem.
9.Keep Listening
10.Reassure him that you love him and the 2 of you will get through this together.
11.Let him know that although you understand that this is difficult you will not stand by and allow yourself to be abused by his words or actions.
12. Seek support together. Books can be useful.
13.Men are resistant to taking advice from women. Sometimes getting another man, a friend or colleague involved can be helpful.
14. Talk to him about what you see and feel. Particularly emphasize the positive things.
15.Seek professional counseling.
8 Things You Should Not Do
1. Don't ignore the changes that occur at this time of life. Male menopause is as natural as puberty and as impossible to ignore.
2.Don't Panic. Your wonderful man has not turned into a monster, although like his adolescent counterpart, it may seem like he has.
3.Don't Blame yourself.
4. Don't be afraid to talk to others.
5. Don't laugh at your man or ridicule his behavior. Men's greatest fear at this stage of life is that they are acting like fools. Love and supprot him even if his behavior is hard to take.
6.Don't let him make you the brunt of his anger.
7.Don't give up on yourself or the R. If its worth keeping, its worth fighting for.
8. Don't try too hard to make his life better. Ultimately, this is his change of of life and he must navigate it for himself.
I thought that this is great advice for both men and women. I really want to recommend these books, and yes there are a few things in this list that contradict what we do here in MLC but overall it is really a good read.
From Power Surge Website
Actually men's symptoms are very similar to womens.
I can quote from the book.
Reduced libido reduced potency or sex drive
Reduced ability to maintain an erection
Fatique
Depression
Aches pains stiffness
Irritablity and anger
Night sweats
Dryness and thinning of skin
Hot Flashes
Premature ejaculation
Stress
Excessive alchol use
Medications
Injuries
Infections
And just for you JACK Smoking and obesity
From a womens website that I am on these are for women:
An Introduction to Menopause:34 Signs / Symptoms of Menopause
There's been a list of the "34 signs of menopause" circulating for years. The list originated with Judy Bayliss' wonderful newsgroup, The Menopaus Listserv (That's Menopaus without the "e" at the end).
I've taken the liberty of adding my own Notes to the original list. You'll find hundreds of articles pertaining to menopause symptoms, treatments and menopause / midlife-related health and emotional issues including articles on midlife relationships, weight and fitness issues, intimacy, psychological problems associated with menopause in Power Surge's, "Educate Your Body" extensive library.
I suggest you begin with the comprehensive article explaining what menopause is (by clicking this link): in "An Introduction To Menopause: Signs, Symptoms and Treatments"
You'll find remedies for most of these symptoms on the Recommendations page.
Here is the list of: "The 34 Signs of Menopause:"
1. Hot flashes, flushes, night sweats and/or cold flashes, clammy feeling (related to increased activity in the autonomic / sympathetic nervous system). Without becoming too, technical, messages are sent to the hypothalmus because of declining estrogen production via neurons which result in vasodilation -- widening of the lumen of blood vessels (lumen being the cavity of a tubular organ, i.e., the lumen of a blood vessel,) which, in turn, causes flushing or hot flashes. Tips for treating/minimizing (and even avoiding) hot flashes: Power Surge's Menopause Survival Tips. Also, read the Power Surges (hot flashes) Forum
2. Bouts of rapid heartbeat (related to increased activity in the autonomic / sympathetic nervous system) Note: Along with rapid heartbeat (palpitations), women can experience skipped heartbeats, irregular heartbeats. These are generally normal vasomotor responses experienced during menopause - usually due to fluctuating hormone levels. However, if these problems continue, it's always a good idea to be checked by your health care practitioner. An echocardiogram is a common procedure to tell the doctor what he needs to know about your heart. If your health care practitioner doesn't suggest it, ASK FOR IT! Read the Palpitations, Heart Issues, Hypertension Forum
3. Irritability. Note: Along with irritability, a host of "anger" problems can develop during menopause. Just as a perimenopausal woman can find herself suddenly crying for no apparent reason or provocation, so can she find herself reacting to given situations in an angrier manner than she normally does. This anger can sometimes feel like "rage." Again, this is hormone-induced, but for some women, the anger can become inappropriate and a woman can feel like she's out of control. There's nothing wrong with seeking counselling to discuss these issues with a mental health professional. This is a challenging time of life and some objective outside help can be tremendously useful in helping a woman cope with all the emotions she's feeling. Remember, menopause isn't simply physical changes, but emotional and spiritual changes as well. There's an excellent forum on the Power Surge Message Board that deals with the issues of Anger / Mood Swings / Rage.
4. Mood swings, sudden tears. Note: Mood swings can include anything from mood shifts (happy one moment, deprssed the next) to sudden bouts of crying when nothing overt has occurred to cause the crying. Mood swings can and have been misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder because one can feel such extremes of emotions due to hormone imbalance. Anxiety, depression, panic attacks and even feelings of agoraphobia aren't uncommon during menopause. The panic attacks often can develop with the onset of hot flashes. For some women, hot flashes can be severe and quite frightening.
5. Trouble sleeping through the night (with or without night sweats). Note: This can develop into insomnia or just waking at 2 in the morning for an hour. Relaxation and breathing exercises can be useful at this time -- many women may log onto the Power Surge message boards and are surprised to find so many other women there in the middle of the night. More help on the Insomnia, Sleep Disorders Forum
6. Irregular periods: shorter, lighter or heavier periods, flooding, and phantom periods. Note: A phantom period is when you experience all the symptoms you're accustomed to having before you menstruate -- but... no period comes. This is a common experience during perimenopause before a woman's period actually stops.
7. Loss of libido (sex drive). Note: Not every woman loses her libido entirely during perimenopause, although some may temporarily. Many women simply have a decreased interest in sex - often it's simply because they generally don't feel well and sex is the last thing on their mind! Also, bear in mind that there are many medications that can affect one's libido, including the anti-depressants some women take to cope with the depression and anxiety associated with menopause to anti-hypertensives.
8. Dry V@g!n@ (results in painful intercourse) Note: Click here for an excellent article about V@g!n@l dryness, sexuality and midlife relationships. Recommended: Sexual Issues/Libido Forum
9. Crashing fatigue. Note: I've never been able to determine if the "fatigue" associated with perimenopause is a symptom in and of itself, or if it's a side effect of the cumulative symptoms and general exhaustion (from them) many women experience. Take all the symptoms and "dump" them on one person -- is it any wonder perimenopausal women are so fatigued? If you can, try to find time to grab a nap. One of the things that helped my fatigue, and it's all chronicled in my personal odyssey to find remedies, is the use of considerable amounts of soy isoflavones and protein, which I found in Revival Soy. I can't say that it specifically targetted and relieved the crashing fatigue, but it helped so many other symptoms and gave me a burst of energy, that I feel comfortable in attributing the fatigue relief to Revival. There are various vitamins, such as those in the "B" family, that can help with fatigue as well. Also, increased amounts of vitamin C. The Recommendations page lists numerous vita-nutrients that can be useful in treating fatigue and other symptoms associated with perimenopause.
10. Anxiety, feeling ill at ease.Note: One of the biggest complaints during menopause. Read the Anxiety/Stress Forum
11. Feelings of dread, apprehension, and doom (includes thoughts of death, picturing one's own death). Note: It's possible that this can be a manifestation of depression associated with menopause, or possibly feelings that come from going through daily discomfort through a difficult menopause transition that can last anywhere from 3-12 years. A woman living under these circumstances can feel totally overwhelmed and frightened by the physical, psychological and spiritual changes. When there seems to be no reprieve from the suffering, for some it can leave them feeling drained wondering when and IF they'll ever feel well again. It isn't unusual for women at this time of life to have thoughts about dying. One phase of their life is coming to a close (not soon enough for many). There may be apprehension and fear about moving on to the next phase of life and wondering whether things will get better or worse. Helpful: The Panic Attacks / Disorder / Fear / Apprehension Forum
12. Difficulty concentrating, disorientation, & mental confusion. Note: Forgetfulness during perimenopause is often referred to lightly and humorously as "brain fog" but it's not always funny. Note: An excellent article, Menopause And The Mind. Also, visit the Memory Loss, Foggy Thinking, Forgetfulness, Verbal Slips Forum
13. Disturbing memory lapses. Note: See #12,
14. Incontinence -- especially upon sneezing, laughing: urge incontinence (reflects a general loss of smooth muscle tone).
15. Itchy, crawly skin (feeling of ants crawling under the skin, not just dry, itchy skin Note: the feeling of ants crawling on your skin is called "formication") Visit the Your Skin: Dryness, Itching, V@g!n@l Dryness, Disorders, Discomfort Forum
16. Aching, sore joints, muscles and tendons. (may include such problems as carpal tunnel syndrome). Note: Osteoarthritis can develop during perimenopause - and those with existing arthritic and/or rheumatic pain may find it's exacerbated during the menopausal transition. See the Joints Aches and Pains/Arthrisitis Forum
17. Increased tension in muscles.
18. Breast tenderness. Note: Breast swelling, soreness, pain.
19. Headache change: increase or decrease. Note: Many women develop migraine headaches during perimenopause. However, if one doesn't have a history of migraine headeaches, they're generally a short-lived experience of perimenopause. Also see the Headaches, Migraine Forum
20. Gastrointestinal distress, indigestion, flatulence, gas pain, nausea. Note: For nausea, try some ginger or, as I use, boiling hot water with a few teaspoons of lemon or lemon juice concentrate in it. Many women also develop acid reflux (Gerd). For some, it can be an uncomfortable feeling of severe burning sensations in the throat. If it persists, see your health care practitioner.
21. Sudden bouts of bloat. Note: Bloating, water retention are common complaints during perimenopause. Also, Acid reflux and heartburn are very common during perimenopause. Treat them as you would if you weren't going through menopause.
22. Depression (has a quality from other depression, the inability to cope is overwhelming, there is a feeling of a loss of self. Natural hormone therapy, ameliorates the depression dramatically). Note: There are various natural methods of treating depression. Read Power Surge's Menopause Survival Tips. Also, many women using progestins or progesterone supplementation experience "depression" as a side effect. Power Surge recommends only naturally compounded, bio-identical hormones. Naturally compounded estrogen and progesterone supplementation doses can be individually adjusted to suit each woman's needs. So, if a woman is experiencing depression from progesterone, the level of progesterone supplementation can be reduced until the compounding pharmacist comes up with the right blend. The combination of estrogen and progesterone is important in achieving the desired results. Other remedies, such as St. John's Wort can be very effective in alleviating the depression associated with menopause.
My personal experience was that my perimenopause-related depression was elliminated when I started using Revival Soy Protein Revival is excellent for mood swings, but I was astonished by the impact it had on the hormone-related "lows" I experienced before using it. Also recommended, The Depression Forum
23. Exacerbation of any existing conditions. Note: Often, conditions women had prior to entering perimenopause become exaggerated (worse) during the menopause transition.
24. Increase in allergies. Note: Many women who suffer from allergies develop worse allergies during the menopausal years. Many women who've never had allergy or respiratory problems may develop them for the first time. Many people don't realize that histamine levels are affected by hormone levels. Women can develop wheezing, coughing and a host of respiratory problems. This generally disappears as the hormones level out once a woman becomes menopausal.
25. Weight gain. (is often around the waist and thighs, resulting in "the disappearing waistline" and changes in body shape.) A good read, Weight Gain and Fitness Issues
26. Hair loss or thinning, head or whole body, increase in facial hair. Note: There is often a loss of pubic hair during menopause. Many women are more comfortable simply shaving their pubic area instead of having patches of hair.
27. Dizziness, light-headedness, episodes of loss of balance. Note: Although common complaints during menopause, I always recommend anyone suffering from dizziness, dysequilibrium have her blood pressure checked just to be on the safe side. However, women can experience these symptoms during perimenopause without having hypertension.
28. Changes in body odor. Note: I wouldn't be too concerned about this one. It can happen, but in 13 years of running Power Surge, I've heard of relatively few cases of developing body odor during menopause.
29. Electric shock sensation under the skin & in the head ("take the feeling of a rubber band snapping against the skin, multiply it (exponentially, sometimes) radiate it & put it in the layer of tissues between skin & muscle & sometimes a precursor to a hot flash.") Note: Those buzzing sensations, as though you've put your finger into a live electrical socket, can be frightening. They're all part of the hormones, nerve endings and electrical waves running through our bodies when our hormones are constantly fluctuating. Many women experience this during perimenopause, but it eventually passes.
30. Tingling in the extremities (can also be a symptom of B-12 deficiency, diabetes, or from an alteration in the flexibility of blood vessels in the extremities.)
31. Gum problems, increased bleeding.
32. Burning tongue
33. Osteoporosis (after several years)
34. Brittle fingernails, which peel & break easily.
Some additional signs from Dearest:
# Dry skin / skin changes
# Internal shaking / tremor-like feelings. Read the Internal Shaking Forum
# Acne and other skin eruptions
# Itching wildly and erratic rashes
# Shoulder pain / joints / arthritis development or flare up in preexisting conditions
# "Heart pain" - a feeling of pain in the area of the heart (if persistent, get checked by your health care practitioner)
# Acid reflux / heartburn / difficulty digesting certain foods
Some of the 34 signs may also be symptoms of one of the following:
# Hypothyroidism
# Diabetes
# Depression with another etiology
# Other medical conditions (see The Educate Your Body Library)
If you have reason to believe you may have one of these conditions, see your healthcare practitioner for treatment.
Dearest Note: Remember that although these may be common complaints during menopause, they might also indicate some other health problem. Be sure to consult with your personal health care practitioner before attributing these symptoms to menopause.
-
4/29/2010 from DB
I just finished reading the book "Menopause" by Sally Conway. The book was written about 20 years ago. Her husband(Jim Conway) wrote a lot of male mid-life books and they run a clinic in California devoted to mid-life problems. She seems to really advocate estrogen, along with other things. I need to do some more research on what happens if you don't take estrogen. According to S. Conway Osteoporosis, heart disease, and other things are the major problems. She seems to think that doctors and OBGYN are using old information about the risks of cancer with ERT. It was an interesting book, I just wonder how up to date the knowledge is.
I have a more recent book called "The Wisdom of Menopause" by Christine Northrup will start reading that to see if their are different ideas.
Also got Men in Mid-Life Crisis by Jim Conway.
My reading continues. I have really read a lot of books now.
Quite a change for me.
-
5/4/2010 from DB
As my reading continues: I am a little over halfway thru "Men in Midlife Crisis", by Jim Conway. It was written in 1978. I guess it is the basis for many things that are on this board. I found the part about the 6 stages of MLC, although I must admit that HB's rendition is much better than Conway's.
I just found this part that is interesting to me and maybe other men whose wive's are going thru this. I will quote
"The woman who has been anchored in her relationships with other people - her husband, her children her parents.
If she derives a great deal of her self esteem from these three sources, she will experience greater trauma through the two stress periods of her life. Her husband will be going thru his own MLC and will not be the stable person she counted on. Her children will be establishing their own identities and will need to break away from the close mother relationship. Her parents are in need of more care and , in some sense, the woman in mid-life becomes the responsible adult overseeing her parents in their later years."
"So her sense of worth must come from within. She should also see her value as something larger than a manager of the household."
I don't know how Conway managed to see my marriage in his book, but it is all written as if he knew.
Conway quoted psychologist Clifford Adams in what motivates men and woman in choosing a mate. In order from top to bottom.
MALE
Companionship
Sex
Love-affection-sentiment
Home & Family
A Help-Mate
Security
FEMALE
Love-affection-sentiment
Security
Companionship
Home & Family
Community acceptance
Sex
"Dr Adams concludes that this discrepancy cannot but lead to widespread dissatisfaction in marriage."
"Most couples have never considered if they are compatible from a need orientation. They conclude because they enjoy touching each, staring into each others eyes, bowling and making love they will have no problems with marriage."
So looking in to the mirror maybe this can help me and other to see what we need to really work on in our lives.
5/52010 from DB
I finished the Conway book.
I will leave one more part of this for everyone's thoughts.
And I am paraphrasing this:
"Marriage Problems
1) Preoccupation with the process of living.
Raising kids, paying mortgage and accumulating things.
2) Lack of communication and intimacy.
The couple is not sharing the things that make them happy or causes them to be uneasy.
3) Unmet personal needs.
A man say I'm in love with you - What he really means is You meet my needs and make me happy.
People that have fallen out of love are really reporting that their needs are no longer being met. They are unable to verbalize to the other person that they have needs that are not being met. They simply say I don't love you anymore.
4) A lack of personal growth.
Old problems from adolescence.
Boredom with marriage."
There are many other good things from the book but I won't ruin it for those of you that have not read it.
-
Heros Spouse 7/12/2010
Just finished reading "The Pain Behind the Mask" "Overcoming Masculine Depression"
There are two things that I want to write down from this book although it gives some great advice and stories.
First on Page 6 "Depression is a collection of symptoms that results from some kind of unresolved conflict"
2ND - The Masculine Dilemma :" Not Too close Not Too Far Away"
This axiom is for boys with their mother and men with their wives.
Many on this board will relate to this with their WH who run to the OW but keep their wives .....
"Not too close not too far away"
This also has to do with dependence,independence, and counterdependence.
Basically the other main point of the book is that men tend to hide their depression. (look at the title)
Most men are so invovled with masculine tendencies that they overlook their feelings
and don't realize they are in pain.
-
HS 7/18/2010
I finished reading the book "Silent Sons" By Dr. Robert J Ackerman.
I thought it was pretty good. Just to review some point made by the book.
I am still trying to evaluate how much I myself fall into this category of being a silent son.
I certainly can relate to the book.
Silent sons are from dysfunctional parents
A silent son's dominant characteristics:
Keeps things that bother him to himself
Denies that unpleasant events occur
Fear letting people know him.
Has difficulty interacting w parents, spouse or children
Has a strong fear of criticism
Is angry
Cant express his feelings
Is obsessively driven to succeed
Desperately wants his life to be better but doesn't know how to change.
"A silent son may be in pain but also has the following positive characteristics."
Good under pressure
Adventuresome
Independent
Is a survivor
Empathic
Hard worker
Loyal friend
Willing to help others
Problem solver
Good sense of humor
Silent sons have 5 common concerns about relationships.
1-Inability to express emotions
2-fear of intimacy
3-inability to trust
4-fear of inadequacy and rejection
5-need to control relationships
There is much more to the book including relationship issues with your mother, father and children.
I would recommend this book for men, to see if you are a "silent son"
For women, how to deal with your husband whom is a silent son.
-
HS subscribers board 12/4/2010
Solo Partner, Repairing your Relationship on your own by Phil Deluca .
Chapter 1 The Pain of Change
There can be no Pain Free Solution.
Changes must be the appropriate changes.
Who must change? - Only one person - YOU!
Chapter 2 Self Deception
False Hope - Unrealized Expectations.
Chapter 3 Emotional Reativity
Old Brain vs New Brain
Communications
Chapter 4 Being Defensive
Chapter 5 Togetherness
Balancing I and We
Chapter 6 Who is to Blame
Stating your position without Blaming
Venting to your Partner - not when marriage is in turmoil
Clearly stating your "I" position
Confronting yourself
Chapter 7 Using your Anger constructively
Anger = Unrealized Expectations
Chapter 8 Pursuit and Distance**************
The most important chapter in the book
For every action there is a reaction
80% of Men are sexual pursuers and emotional distancers
The more you pursue the further the distancer moves away.
Pursurers and Distancers exist in almost all relationships
How to stop pursuit and distance - must come from the pursuer.
Distancers tend to change in direct proportion to how much they are pursued
Traits of Distancers and Pursurers
Chapter 9 Stopping Pursuit
Never pursue a distancer
Different phases of distance and pursuit
Conclusion Separation and Reconcilliation
Do not drop your changes
This book really excited me and really brought together the concepts that we learn.
Detachment is key to not pursuing.
The traits in Chapter 8 really help me in what changes I need to make in ME!
Phil Deluca is the first person who really explained what "the changes" are that you need to make when you look in the mirror.
It is not going on a diet or to stop smoking. (although you can do those too)
It is stop your pursuit!!!!
12/08/2010
The following is from the book The Solo Partner.
SHOULD ALL BE IN QUOTES
TRAITS
Emotional Distancer (predominatly male)
SEXUAL STYLE: Pursuit
SENSE OF SELF: On the surface, aggrandized self; strongly individualistic.
In reality, pseudo-individualitic. Individualistic only in a supportive environement, such as at home, in presence of, but but unresponsive to, his partner.
Does things in his own way, through defiance or passive resistance.
A leader and self-initiator.
Sees the world as centered on himself. Tries to be the center of attention. Feels unappreciated.
Overly self concerned and self protective; always looking out for self. Difficulty perceiving others point of view.
Prefers independent activities with buddies not organized group activities. Chooses to be different for its own sake.
Experiences his individuality to the exclusion of relationship.
TRUST: Highly suspicious of others and relationships with them.
Pessimistic about other's motives.
EMOTIONS: Primarily object oriented. Relates to and puts material things first, feeling and people second.
Results in an overemphasis on thinking and logic.
Fear emotions and emotionality. Avoids them.
Unemotional, and affect is elusive. Impossible to tell his feelings by looking at or listening to him.
Only emotions expressed regularly is anger.
Either explosively and briefly or passive-agressively, as if he's not angry when he really is.
Self-gratifing and unresponsive.
Little sympathy for, or empathy with others.
Feels little for others or self.
EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES: Overprotective. Needs a lot of "space"
RELATIONSHIP SKILLS: Lacking
SENSE OF RESPOSIBILITY: Underresponsible; feels little resposibility for his situation or relationship.
Tends to blame others.
Most comfortable emotionally(although not truly happy) behaving like a baby.
CAPACITY TO CHANGE: Lacks insight and/or follow-through.
Inability to adjust. Clings rigidly to position regardless of circumstances.
Resists direct change. Tends to evolve rather than cjhanging directly in response to circumstances.
Will change when faced with loss of significant other.
Rejects advice, couseling. Solutions must come from self.
Frustrates others' efforts to change them.
RYTHYM OF INITIATING CHANGE: Tends to be overly "patient"
Procrastinates. Avoids facing relationship problems.
Prone to relationship paralysis.
PATTERN OF EMOTIONS: Little variation. Tends to be reasonable, but boring. Depends on their pursurer for highs and lows.
RELATIONSHIP EXPECTATIONS: Expects the pursurer to always be there. Prone to despair and self-pity when not fulfilled.
PERSONAL PROBLEM-SOLVING STYLE: Avoidance. Seeks peace, avoids emotional crises. Believes if you ignores a problem long enough it will go away.
CONTROL AND MANIPULATION: Strives to maintain central position to protect self from getting hurt.
Manipulates enviornment to meet their needs.
DECISION MAKING: Decisions made and then clung to regardless of changes in cicumstances.
VIEW OF LOVE: Overemphasizes practical aspects. Minimal expression of love, sharing, or romance, expect when courting or pursuing a distancing partner.
TYPICAL BELIEF: Love is fine, but it doesn't pay the bills.
SEXUALTIY: Physical enjoyment takes precedence over caring.
Sex seen as conquest or performance, not shared experience.
Objectifies Partner.
SUBSTITUE ACTIVITIES: Overly involved with objects, e.g. sports, cars, house(for prestige), work, sexual liasons(conquest), alcohol.
SELF-DECEPTION: Believes overemphasis on individuality brings a sense of security, self esteem, contentment. Fears emotional closeness.
Believes they can evade a pursurer.
DEMEANOR: In later years: boring to be involved with. Arrogant, cynical, pessimistic, negative. Prone to self-pity.
FACIAL CHARACTERISTICS AFTER FOURTY: Appears emotionless. Dark circles under eyes.
GREATEST RELATIONSHIP DIFFICULTY: Denial of problem.
Avoidance of relationship issues.
TYPICAL STATEMENT: "I like myself the way I am and you should too. If you don't like me the way I am, you're free to leave.
I give you a comfortable life, don't sleep around - what more do you want?"
_____________________________________________________________
I am not guaranteeing that there are no typos in this.
:) :)
The following is from the book The Solo Partner.
SHOULD ALL BE IN QUOTES
TRAITS
Emotional Pursuers (predominatly female)
SEXUAL STYLE: Distance
SENSE OF SELF: Strongly non-individualistic.
Has difficulty being alone or acting independently for any length of time.
Rarely does things on own.
Primarily does what others want.
Tends to be clinging and overly anxious.
A follower.
Depends on others for guidance.
Sees the world as centered on others "Gives to get"
Feels taken for granted.
Overly Concerned and protective of others.
Always looking out for others never for self.
Overly Adaptative. Chooses to be like others or to yield for the sake of unity.
Feels empty without interaction with others.
Constantly seeking love, approval, and appreciation.
Will give up individuality for the sake of relationship.
TRUST: Tends to be naive about relationships. Optomistic about other's motives.
Overly trusting; frequently taken advantage of.
EMOTIONS: Primarily people and feeling oriented.
Places these above material things.
Seeks out emotions and emotionality.
Overemotional and effect is heightened.
Openly shows feelings to everyone.
Expresses a full range of emotions.
Frequently intensely expressive, at the expense of thought or reason.
Overinvolved with others.
A Codependent.
Overly sympathetic and empathetic.
Heightened response to others.
Avoids pain,Tries to protect others from the consequences of their behavior.
EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES: Ill defined. May be nosy, intrusive.
Always has to know whats going on with everyone in the family at all times.
RELATIONSHIP SKILLS: Immaturely applied
SENSE OF RESPOSIBILITY:Overly responsible; Assumes to much resposibility for the relationship.
Assumes solution is in their power with sufficient effort.
Most comfortable emotionally(although not truly happy) when tending to others. Tends to infantilze others.
Is a "rescuer"
CAPACITY TO CHANGE: Insight into others, but little into self.
Often held back by looking for explanations.
Much talk of change while still passive.
Changes made to appease. Avoids significant change because of anticipated pain and lack of approval.
Wants prior guarantees.
Open to direct change. Overly amenable.
Fears taking a stand and dealing with consequences.
Believes problems must be dealt with instantly.
Seeks advice, counseling.
Open to offered solutions via own efforts.
RYTHYM OF INITIATING CHANGE: Overly impatient.
Cannot delay dealing with problems. Lacks restraint; impulsive.
PATTERN OF EMOTIONS: High peaks and deep lows.
Depends on the distancer for stability.
RELATIONSHIP EXPECTATIONS: High Expectations of others, low for self.
Believes they "exprct nothing in return" but hold expectations no one could fulfill.
Prone to resentment, bitterness in later years.
Very critical of others
PERSONAL PROBLEM-SOLVING STYLE: Emotional engagement.
Seeks emotionally charged, reactive situations.
Uncomfortable in calm situations.
Tends to provoke reactivity and crises. Generates worry about about everyone and everything.
CONTROL AND MANIPULATION: Controls to protect others from themselves.
Manipulates controls others through guilt, advice, retaliation, criticism and or/submissiveness.
Acts for others "own good." Feels powerless and ultimately incapable. Seeks someone to exert control for and over them.
DECISION MAKING: Difficult, confused, inconsistent. Depends on others to make decisions(parents, partner)
VIEW OF LOVE: Overly romantic. Overlooks practical aspects of relationship.
TYPICAL BELIEF: Love conquers all.
SEXUALTIY: Caring for the partner takes precedence over physical enjoyemnt. sex seen as a sign of caring for and by partner.
SUBSTITUE ACTIVITIES: Overly involved with family, house(for approval), sexual liasons (to feel cared for), medications, particularly tranquilzers
SELF-DECEPTION: Believes living for an extension of partner brings a sense of security, self esteem, contentment.
Believes they can catch a distancer.
DEMEANOR: Assumed invulnerability. Self righteous. In later years bitter, cold, emotionally and physically fatigued. Prone to martydom.
FACIAL CHARACTERISTICS AFTER FOURTY: Stress lines(from turmoil, anger) Fatigued look (from pursuit)
GREATEST RELATIONSHIP DIFFICULTY: Inability to remain univolved, particularly with own children.
TYPICAL STATEMENT: "All I ever needed was a home and to be loved. I'll do whatever I have to do to keep everyone happy.If they really cared about me, they would know what I want"
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I changed some of the "he's" and "she's" to "they" being that when I read these I put myself in the pursurer category which is predominatly female.
I know I am not female.....LOL. :) :) :)
It also was a help to me writing all this out as I am still evaluating all of these traits to place myself and my wife within each category.
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Heros Spouse book review 8/9/2010
I just got another book from the library that I will be reading.
It is called "Unholy Ghost" - Writers on depression by Nell Casey.
It has contributions on it from 23 different writers.
It comes from another list of books on the other website.
Will report back when I have finished, or maybe in the middle.
Also bumping this thread up for other contributions.
Ok I finished this book.
DO NOT BOTHER WITH IT.
I had a lot of trouble reading it as it was mostly ramblings from depressed people,
there were a few paragraphs here and there that were ok.
Not really worth the time and effort to read it.
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Posted 8/18/2010 book review thread
So now I have another book.
"Controlling People - How to recognize and deal with people who try to control you"
by Patricia Evans
I just finished reading this book this morning.
It was quite interesting and I will try to put down some notes for myself and others.
Here is a website fro Ms. evans on an overview of the book:
Also there is some more explanation if you click in the upper left hand portion of this page.
http://www.patriciaevans.com
This is a little story from the book which is somewhat crucial to the crux of the title;(somewhat paraphrased from the text)
"When Jack was three years old his parents, D & J took him to get some winter clothes.
While in the store Jack fell down and injured his knee and began to cry.
His parents said almost simultaneuosly as they pulled him up " You are not hurt. You have nothing to cry about.
You are just trying to get attention." Each of these statements invalidated Jack's pereception and was the opposite of the truth.
Jacks experience was presented to him backwards. An inner occurence his experience was defined from outside of himself by his parents.
If this is the way Jack was always treated, How might he have defined himself'"
If we believe that his parents definition is more real than our own we come to know ourselves in a backwards way. from the outside in, not the inside out."
There is another story which i believe is too long to recant her but the jist of it is that as a child you have a "Teddy Bear", you hug him and hold him,throw him around.
When you grow up Teddy becomes a real person and all is fine with life, until one day, Teddy actually talks back and questions you. You start yelling and screaming at
Teddy becuase he is not acting like the pretend person that you have come to know and love. This pretend person is the one that is being controlled by the controller.
At the very end of the book she goes into how to break this control. Her theory is that the person needs to confront the controller with the word "WHAT?"
Also by setting clear boundaries.
I was expecting her to say by detachment but that was not used.
She did say that the controller needed connections with the controlled person so I believe that we are on the right trail with detachment, to break the connection with the controller.
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9/6/2010 HS book review thread
Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy.
I just finished this book.
I enjoyed this one as it goes into explanations of different periods of a mans life.
A little bit of his twenties, thirties,more in depth on 40's,50's,60's and beyond.
It has some funny anecdotes on each stage.
There is some mention of women in the book, but it would be nice to read a similar book on women's passages.
One thing it did say is men live longer if they are married!
Also that the older that men get the smaller the life expectancy age gap is between men and women.
Edit - Post from 8/26/2013
I see I forgot to review the "Talking to Depression" book by Carol J Strauss.
It was ok, I would have been better off reading it about 9 months ago.
It pretty much was a review of validation, the stages of depression, how to act around a depressed person.
Now I am reading Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy.
I am only up to chapter 3 but it seems pretty good so far.
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9/12/2010 HS book review thread
Ok I finished
"The Script" (The 100% absolutely predictable things men do when they cheat)
by Elizabeth Landers & Vicky Mainzer
First a funny thing happened while I was reading this book.
My W I think snooped on this book. I wasn't really publicly showing it to her.
Anyway on her computer a trail of websites about men cheating showed up for a few days.
So she must have thought that by me reading this book I was cheating on her. LOL!!!!
Anyways the book is quite good for what happens before and through replay.
Even explains how it is "childhood issues" that cause all of these things to happen.
Goes over different types of Bomb Drops.
The lying and all that goes on during the affairs.
It also gives the LBS some lines(to say) and advice of what to do and expect during this phase.
The finale was a little disappointing. It is only 5 pages long.
It basically says that the "hero" (the cheater) doesn't get what he really wants in the end.
That the story doesn't turn out like he was expecting.
The book is only 173 pages and small paper with large type.
So it is a pretty quick read if you have time.
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9/27/2010
Just finished the book "Infidelity" by Don-David Lusterman
This book has some good advice in it and takes you through the different types of affairs including MLC.
Their is a section on "life crisis" including MLC.
It deals with the secrecy, children, family and freinds, advice to the one in crisis.
I question some of what is written to the one in crisis.
I wonder how many people having an affair are going to read this book.
Much of the advice seems to be geared towards them.
Not that there is anything wrong with the advice that they are being given just whether they will take it or not.
The one thing that also seems absent from this book is the exposure theory, that is put forth on other websites as a technique for breaking the affair.
Very little if anything is written on this subject.
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11/2/2010 HS -book review
Just finished reading this book, I am going to use this review that someone else wrote for FIGHTING FOR YOUR MARRIAGE by Markman,Stanley, and Blumberg.
I read the 2010 edition as it just came into the library.
Fighting for Your Marriage" has the feel of being more of a strategy guide for effective communication than a how-to formula for a cookie-cutter successful marriage. I didn't get the sense that I have to follow everything in the book to make marriage work. Instead, it reminded me of the different perspectives in relationships without making heavy generalizations of male and female roles. Understanding how these different perspectives result become key in honing the right communication skills for a stronger marriage.
The book begins with the four hallmarks of a great relationship: 1) be safe at home, 2) open the doors to intimacy, 3) do your part and be responsible, and 4) nurture security in your future together. Though these sound like four tasks that need to be done, the book builds on these four hallmarks conceptually to present four important aspects to marriage life.
Part one: "Understanding the Risks on the Road to Lasting Love." One chapter covers ways couples destroy their relationship: 1) escalation, 2) invalidation, 3) negative interpretations, and 4) withdrawal and avoidance. Then, special attention is placed on how changing times means changing roles and rules.
Part two: "Teaming Up to Handle Conflict." The "be safe at home" concept is especially vital in understanding communication in this section--the aphorism here is in taking turns to speak/listen. Relationships blow up because of a misunderstanding that escalates out of control, often due to filters that often distort what one is trying to convey to another--1) distractions, 2) emotional states, 3) beliefs and expectations, 4) differences in style, and 5) self-protection.
Part three: "Enjoying Each Other." Make time for marriage as one does for an esteemed friend. The authors do not shy away from identifying the friendship aspect of marriage as being the core of long-lasting, happy marriages. Friendship needs to be nurtured, so couples need to make the time. Working on the friendship is a worthwhile investment that pays off in the long run. Of course, sensuality is given plenty of notice here as well.
Part four: "Staying the Course." This section begins with a simple reality check: you can't always get what you want. But that should not excuse any of the spouses from trying to meet the expectations of another. A great deal of motivation needs cultivating to get the wheels rolling. More than anything else in the section, I found the chapter on forgiveness very revealing with this point: "forgiveness is a decision to give up your perceived or actual right to get even with, or hold in debt, someone who has wronged you."
Overall, this book has many merits, mainly because it keeps the channel of communication open for a healthy marriage by offering perspectives that makes yielding hopefully more possible and manageable.
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11/11/2010
Just finished Women In MLC by Sally Conway.(and Jim too)
Book wasn't too bad, I thought men in MLC was better.
There is one story I am going to give you that is good for everyone.
I am going to paraphrase to make it a little shorter to type.
From page 300 and 301 in the book.
"What is the difference between a transition and a crisis?
Imagine standing on a dock waiting to get into a canoe on a lake.
As you step into the canoe you try to keep your weight in the center of the boat.
One foot is in, one foot still on the dock, the canoe starts to move away from the dock.
Your legs start to be spread even wider.
You try to reach back to the dock but your legs are spread too wide.
In the water you go!
The canoe also tips over.
YOU ARE NOW IN A CRISIS.
Instead of moving from one stable position on the dock to another stable position in the boat.
This would be a transition."
Anyway I enjoyed reading that little story! :)
Edit This is the book that DGU says contains the four pllars of a MLC - Body, Spouse, Job, and God
Actually the Four Enemies are listed in the chapter called "Her Husband's Own Crisis"
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Written by one of our local politicians who I just heard on radio.
Here's one link to the book but I'm glad some one has finally spoken up about the ease at which society now just walks away from realtionships and it's time we do something about it - like educate the next generation.
http://www.connorcourt.com/catalog1/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=220
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Amazon: Paperback (http://www.amazon.com/Switch-Change-Things-When-Hard/dp/1847940323/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1365856765&sr=1-1) and Kindle (http://www.amazon.com/Switch-Change-Things-When-ebook/dp/B0030DHPGQ/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1365856765&sr=1-1)
Apple iBook store (https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/switch/id419259527?mt=11)
Kobo (http://www.kobobooks.com/ebook/Switch/book-SYEvW57Z5U-Bfr8APsE4Pw/page1.html)
Barnes & Noble (print and eBook) (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/switch-chip-heath/1100203647)
I actually came across this book in relation to my job, but I think it has excellent suggestions for peoples' personal growth as well. Michele Weiner-Davis of Divorce Busting even gets mentioned.
I'm not recommending it as a way of "fixing" your MLCer, but perhaps as a way to improve interactions or to help in rebuilding when it comes time for reconciliation.
The book starts with an anecdote about a study that was conducted on people's eating habits. They offered people a bucket of free popcorn to enjoy when they went to see a movie in a theater; each person was given one bucket of popcorn (so there was no sharing), the popcorn was popped days before to be particularly unappetizing, and each person was either given a large bucket of popcorn or a medium-sized bucket.
What they found was that people who were given the larger buckets of popcorn ate more than the people who were given the smaller buckets. The popcorn was free, so price was not a factor (in fact, some people forgot that it was free and demanded their money back); it was old, bad-tasting popcorn so taste was unlikely to be a factor; and each person was given their own bucket, so it was unlikely that people were sharing their popcorn with others. Not only did people not believe that they ate more popcorn if they had the larger bucket, they actually argued with the researchers, in spite of evidence to the contrary; they "knew" how much they ate!
The authors made the case that if the study was published without describing the difference in the size of the buckets, people would see that some people simply ate more popcorn than others. They would speculate about those peoples' eating habits and want to come up with a plan to teach people how to snack less or not overeat. In reality, the fix was simple; give people smaller portions and they're less likely to overeat. The point the authors made is that what may appear to be a personality or behavioral problem is actually a situational one; you don't necessarily have to change people's attitudes, you just have to change the circumstances.
They mentioned the Clocky, an alarm clock devised by a researcher at MIT. When you set Clocky to go off at a particular time it will actually roll off of the nightstand and run around the floor, forcing you to get out of bed and hunt it down to turn it off; according to the authors, "Clocky is not a product for a sane species; if Spock wants to get up at 5:45 am, he'll just get up." They describe humans as having two sides to our minds; there's the rational side (the superego) which can make reasoned, conscientious decisions, and the emotional side (the id) which is selfish and childlike. This dual nature to our personalities are why people throw out all of the junk food when they decide to go on a diet because although the rational side knows better than to eat the junk food, the emotional side wants a bowl of ice cream. The rational side wants to get out of bed at 5:45 so they can go for a jog in the morning, while the emotional side wants to stay curled up in the warm comfy bed as long as possible.
(EDIT: Correcting a mistaken impression I made here) The authors cite Jonathan Haidt's metaphor from The Happiness Hypothesis for this duality; the emotional side is the Elephant, and the rational side is the Rider. They do this to better illustrate the relationship they see between the two; the rational Rider can direct the emotional Elephant much of the time, but if the Elephant really wants to go somewhere or do something, there's not much the Rider can do to stop it. The Elephant is what makes you crave fast food when you should be dieting, call up your ex at 2 in the morning, and have that one cigarette that you know you shouldn't. The Rider can see the big picture and makes decisions that affect things in the long term. However, the Elephant also has strengths and the Rider has weaknesses. The Elephant is your drive and your motivation, the thing that provides you with the energy to make changes stick; the Rider can get bogged down in over-analyzing situations and being indecisive.
The authors also make the case that people's self-control is not limitless. The Rider can make you choose to start running every day in order to get in shape, but if the Elephant isn't engaged then you eventually lose the motivation to keep doing it. This is why change is so hard for many people; behaviors that are automatic or internalized are what is comfortable, and the Rider can only make you change those behaviors for a short time until he gets exhausted and you stop. At the same time, while a motivated Elephant will give you the drive to do what needs to be done, the Rider needs a clear plan of what to do or else he will get bogged down with indecision. The authors describe several examples where the more choices a person has, the less likely they are to make a choice at all, opting to stick with what is comfortable. A display that only has a few different flavors of jam will sell more jars than one that has 15 different flavors; it's easier to pick from A, B, or C than it is to pick from A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J... The authors state that "what often looks like resistance is often a lack of clarity."
They propose a simple three part-framework for effecting lasting change, both in ourselves and in people around us; the book is aimed at promoting change within organizations, even when the people effecting the change has little real power or authority to do so. The three parts are:
- Direct the Rider
- Motivate the Elephant
- Shape the Path
I'll add to this thread as I make my way through the book. Others who have read the book, or pick up a copy and want to contribute to the discussion are welcome to do so.
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This is amazing, thank you for sharing it! I've got "Made to Stick" and I think this is one my H talked about picking up for our collection before BD, ironically. The elephant/rider metaphor is so profound.
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This makes a lot of sense, really; successful advertising and marketing seeks to create an emotional response in the viewer. Consider the Faces of Meth (http://www.facesofmeth.us/main.htm) campaign, which uses before-and-after pictures of meth users to shock people; the hope is that people who are offered meth would remember those pictures and think "If I do this, I could end up looking like that!"
The Elephant/Rider metaphor has applications when explaining why our MLCers do what they do. Their Elephants are completely out of control right now and stampeding from one extreme to the other; the Rider can only hold it together before for so long before it wears out.
The chapter I'm on actually discusses "analysis paralysis"; when I get a chance I'll summarize some more.
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The authors create a new metaphor for this duality this duality; the emotional side is the Elephant, and the rational side is the Rider
I don't believe these authors were the ones creating this metaphor.
I read about this about 2.5 years ago in a book called: "The Happiness Hypothesis", by Johathan Haidt. In fact, a photo of an Elephant and a rider , swimming in water, are on the front cover of the paperback I own of that book.
http://www.happinesshypothesis.com/
(Edit, I reread that book often to remind me of certain principles to keep happiness in my own life. It's a keeper, IMHO.)
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I read about this about 2.5 years ago in a book called: "The Happiness Hypothesis", by Johathan Haidt. In fact, a photo of an Elephant and a rider , swimming in water, are on the front cover of the paperback I own of that book.
Not only are you correct, but the authors cite that book as the source for the metaphor; I overlooked that part in my summary. :)
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Hapinesshypothesis.com looks fascinAting thanks for the link x
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I've finished the book, and I'll post some more thoughts later.
On the authors' website they have a nice one-page summary of the Switch framework as a PDF:
http://www.heathbrothers.com/resources/download/switch-framework.pdf
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Listening to this now:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/focus-on-the-family/player/finding-the-path-to-true-happiness-349937.html
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Like many here, I have a whole shelf full of books about marriage, codepdendent, personal development, depression, mid life crisis etc.
I couldn't find an active book thread so thought I'd start one. If there's one going, do let me know.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=100.0
I am currently reading "I don't want to talk about it" by Terence Real. I think this book is out of print, which is a real shame. I had ordered mine through a marketplace seller on amazon, ie used. Having said that, I find it shocking it's out of print, because I've not read elsewhere the kinds of stuff he has done his research on. Which is mainly men's depression. I haven't read too far yet,page 54. He writes how men's depression is usually covert, and is very different from normal depression where one is usually sad, doesn't want to see people, has trouble sleeping/eating. If you've read the articles on HS, you will already know about covert and overt depression. Real goes into the why of covert depression, and typical male problems of intimacy, hiding pain, inability to express themselves etc and how heavily influenced and affected men are by the male parent/grandparent, and how they handled these sensitive issues affects how the son handles his. This way old negative patterns get handed down.
I'm feeling I have a lot more understanding of what my husband has gone through and how he has been affected by all the negative influences in his childhood- ie absent father who abandoned the family when he was 7, alchoholic mother, mother's alchoholic and abusive boyfriends, etc.
I hope you will contribute about any books you want, and we can share the books we have read and suggest recommendations.
Edit - Added link to first book thread. - Oldpilot
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Hi Sunny
I too am reading this one - it is fascinating stuff and I agree, strange it is out of print - I found mine on Ebay! Some of it really made me cry because I could feel through his writing that I am there with some of his case studies. I only dip in and out though as I can't read too much of it at once.
xxx
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I am currently reading "I don't want to talk about it" by Terence Real.
I have read this book too as it is the top book that RCR suggests to read.
I think she mentions it on the previous book thread linked above.
I was able to get it from the library and would suggest that everyone first check there before trying to go out and buy books.
The library is a great GAL activity, and it is also the right price for us LBS!
I just found out yesterday that I can access Ancestry.com at my local library.
So my next project will be doing some more research there about my family.
My son has been working on genealogy and I may have caught the bug. :) :)
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hi Clarebear and OP.
Yes the library is a GREAT idea! I haven't been for awhile, but will once I'm moved and settled in. My new town has a big brand new library and I can't wait to get in there to check it out!
Ironically, the last time I was at the library, I had to return two unread books on depression which were two and a bit months overdue! They were lovely about it thankfully.
And regarding "I don't want to talk about it", the library is a great option as this book is difficult to find anyway!! and a great GAL activity, also great for kids. I loved going to the library when I was a kid! :)
Clare, I know what you mean, I see my H on every page, and also due to the amount of research and information there, I also take it slowly, read a few pages each night. It is very dense, and because the material reflects so much of my H, also very emotional for me. But I am learning so so much!!
Another great book is The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. Very powerful, one which I take only very small bites from, time to time. I do find it hard to read this one straight through. There is also a Facebook community.
And one other current fave, a book not about depression or MLC, is The Tao of Pooh. I also have the Te of Piglet. It doesn't matter if you're not into Chinese wisdom, there are so many wonderful wise bits in this, using Winnie the Pooh to explain. Just wonderful. My go-to book for sad days, down days, any day when I need a boost. I often read a page at night of this, just to maintain my equilibrium.
Looking forward to hearing about other people's favourite books, marriage/MLC or something completely different!
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Terrence Real's book is available on ebook.
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is it? I couldn't find it here in the UK. Well that's good news!
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Never thought of looking for an ebook!
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So my next project will be doing some more research there about my family.
My son has been working on genealogy and I may have caught the bug. :) :)
OP - I put a two line request for information a couple of years ago on a geneology site, and wasn't sure of correct name spelling, etc., and within 2 days or so, got a reply. Hey, Snowdrop, I think I might be your first cousin!! Well, this lovely lady, not only was able to tell me about our family's immediate history, but had in fact spent much time doing as you are, and managed to go back to either 17th or 18th Century. How fab!
I would love to have access to what she wrote, but when H left, he decided to leave the computer in pieces, so I can't get to the info. One day, and I can't wait ;D
Lots of luck. I think Ancestry.com seems to be a good place, and from what I've seen on their ads, it can do a lot of the work for you, linking people to places, etc.
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Snowdrop, what an amazing story about your first cousin!!
OP, that's awesome you can access Ancestry.com at the library! wonder if the same at ours? That would be awesome as at one time I was working on my geneology but had to stoo as couldn't afford the ancestry membership. I got quite far back on my grandfather's side, all the way back to the UK. I also did work on H's family, of which little is known past grandparents. I was able to get back a few more generations, not as many as mine, but did locate a second cousin. I told H but he wasn't even interested! That was the year before he left, maybe something do with MLC. I have kept in semi-contact with the cousin.
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Heros Spouse 7/12/2010
2ND - The Masculine Dilemma :" Not Too close Not Too Far Away"
This axiom is for boys with their mother and men with their wives.
Many on this board will relate to this with their WH who run to the OW but keep their wives .....
"Not too close not too far away"
This also has to do with dependence,independence, and counterdependence.
Basically the other main point of the book is that men tend to hide their depression. (look at the title)
Most men are so invovled with masculine tendencies that they overlook their feelings
and don't realize they are in pain.
Old Pilot...is this a good book to read or one of those books that has a few good pointers and info
SSG
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Yes this is a good book on masked depression from what I remember.
RCR likes Terrence Real's book and I have read both of them.
If you have the time read them both.
Heros Spouse 7/12/2010
Just finished reading "The Pain Behind the Mask" "Overcoming Masculine Depression"
There are two things that I want to write down from this book although it gives some great advice and stories.
First on Page 6 "Depression is a collection of symptoms that results from some kind of unresolved conflict"
2ND - The Masculine Dilemma :" Not Too close Not Too Far Away"
This axiom is for boys with their mother and men with their wives.
Many on this board will relate to this with their WH who run to the OW but keep their wives .....
"Not too close not too far away"
This also has to do with dependence,independence, and counterdependence.
Basically the other main point of the book is that men tend to hide their depression. (look at the title)
Most men are so invovled with masculine tendencies that they overlook their feelings
and don't realize they are in pain.
Old Pilot...is this a good book to read or one of those books that has a few good pointers and info
SSG
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Will get both ...but as you said in your review, the second one sounds like my husband spot on (as so many WH here).
Thanks
SSG
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I came across this book about empathy. I have also been reading about pronoia (the opposite of paranoia). Hoping to get a hold of it and get something out of it. If anyone has read it or ends up reading it, I'd love to know your thoughts:
The Empathy Exams: Essays
http://www.amazon.com/Empathy-Exams-Essays-Leslie-Jamison-ebook/dp/B00FCQW7NK/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400581733&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Empathy+Exams
This is another one that I am REALLY interested in:
The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gifts-Imperfection-Supposed-Embrace/dp/159285849X
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I came across this book about empathy. I have also been reading about pronoia (the opposite of paranoia). Hoping to get a hold of it and get something out of it. If anyone has read it or ends up reading it, I'd love to know your thoughts:
The Empathy Exams: Essays
http://www.amazon.com/Empathy-Exams-Essays-Leslie-Jamison-ebook/dp/B00FCQW7NK/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400581733&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Empathy+Exams
This is another one that I am REALLY interested in:
The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gifts-Imperfection-Supposed-Embrace/dp/159285849X
I have put this post with the other book threads that we have here on the forum.
There is a link to the previous thread on the first post here.
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Quite handy OP that you posted as I was just about to go look for this thread! Interesting books Arborealis! Let us know how if you manage to get a copy and what they're like! The second one sounds very interesting to me!
By the way, I came across a free book spite today called BookBub.com. Don't know if it will have anything of interest, but it might be worth looking at, plus I am told there are loads of free or nearly free books online, worth checking. I have a friend who rarely pays for books.
I am ashamed to say (nah I'm not ashamed at all!) to still be reading "I Don't Want to Talk About it". I put it down some time ago, got busy and didn't get back to it. I have now. This book blows my mind. It breaks my heart. Reading of the impact on boys and men of gender stereotyping, "you must be strong", "boys don't cry" etc makes me feel so sad. I'm actually preparing a presentation on gender stereotypes which seem to have become worse in recent years. what's with all the blue and pink and girls toys and boys toys? Makes me so angry! Anyway mustn't digress!
I think what our society does to boys is criminal, how they lose the language of emotion, are not cuddled or helped as much as girls. Goes with the "be a man" ideology. . I feel I understand my husband a lot more. Years before his MLC, he was always unable to express his feelings, often didn't even know what they were. He was also very moody, which I think arose from his repressed emotions.
Mid life crisis is depression, albeit covert. Ok maybe not news, but reading all the stories of how it manifests in men's lives is truly heartbreaking, as well as the means they will go to run away from it.
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I read this book a couple of days ago and wish I could help the covert depression I now see in my dad and brother who do not get on with each other.
My H keeps having suicidal thoughts. This book really helps me to empathise with him but it is so hard to stop wanting to fix him. I wish Terrence Real could give my H therapy
X
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OP, Did you ever post my book list? The top books that got me through the nasty MLC coaster:
The Gift of Betrayal, Eve Wood and the Grief Recovery Handbook
The ones that helped me understand MLC:
Deal, and of his books
Wrestling with Love, Osherson
The ones that helped me help my kids through divorce:
Parents who Cheat, Ana Nogales
Between Two Worlds, Marquart
Children of Divorce, Andrew Root
Giving the Love that Heals, Hendrix (all his books are amazing)
The ones that helped me rebuild myself:
The Work, Byron Katie
I thought it Was just Me, Brene Brown
Lost and Found, Geneen Roth
Radical Acceptance, Tara Brach
The ones that helped me move on:
The Art of Loving, Fromm
When Good People Have Affairs
Emotional Chaos to Clarity
The ones that helped me in my new R:
Remarriage Blueprint, Maggie Scarf
All the Venus and Mars books
and a nod to OP, the love languages book...
If you need any recommendations on others, let me know-- I have read them ALL! Love and light, ll
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For hell with forgiving I am currently reading: The Unburdened Heart by Suzanne Eller
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What an awesome list Lisalives! So very helpful of you to have compiled a resource list like this! There's a good few there I want to look for.
Hmm, yes I wish my h could have therapy with Mr Real too but it doesn't seem in the cards for you or me. I'm hoping h will see a therapist when he hits bottom, but as usual, I will have no say in any of it. I do struggle with thinking, if I sent him this link, this book, this quote, etc, it might change something. But it doesn't.
Bookwrmmom, do let me know what you think of the book. Sounds interesting!
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From HS May 16, 2010, 05:43:33 PM
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6.msg179#msg179
This book I would highly reccomend reading for the LBS is Susan Anderson's
The Journey From Abandonment To Healing.
Susan Anderson has been working with abandoned spouses for 25 years, has identified slightly different stages and considers the LBS/Abandoned experience akin to a form of PTSD.
It is helped me tremendously.
Here is the link for the outer child inventory
http://www.outerchild.net/
According to Anderson we all have an inner child and outer child conflict.
By identifying our outer child traits we can help to overcome the outer child and become adults.
Also want to put a post in here from the DB Board
written by Lost For Words on the Stages of the LBS
My thoughts on the LBS stages;
Denial- Without a doubt the first phase. It could be as simple as denying that there is something wrong or amiss. Eventually turning to denial that it is actually happening to us, denying our part in everything, and the worse part.....denying our inner self's to come out. Maybe because we don't know how.....but at the point everything is caused by some outside catalyst. Sounds very MLC like to me?
Bargaining-I put this here instead of after anger because I feel the deep seated thought out anger is yet to come. We have felt the quick anger brought on by emotional pain and trauma, but not that thought out and reviewed anger that is to come. So we beg, plead, whatever it takes (during this stage I actually saw the positive side of an open marriage...granted my situation is only slightly different...LOL). We will do whatever it takes to save the marriage, yet haven't realized that the marriage is gone. dead! Fini!
Anger-This stage is third...why you ask? At this point our bargaining, selling of our soul, absolutely nothing has had the expected results. So we feel deep down anger and conviction that we are right...they are wrong....and We will win no matter who loses! This very well might be the hardest stage for anybody going through this. I have been scanning lightly in newcomers and see so many of that boards "mentors" stuck themselves in this stage. Trying to control what is uncontrollable out of anger and not based on sound decision.
Depression-At this point the energy involved with our anger is used up. We are burnt out......and now we are ALONE. Yes...we have been alone in the physical sense for some time, but the bucket is finally empty.
Resentment-Slightly different than anger.....more identified with long periods of being OK....then boom.....anger comes bursting back in very brief, but extremely intense blasts. I think it is almost a triggered response...a missed ball game, long weekend with a sick child, or coming up short on a mortgage payment. A catalyst disturbs the beast sleeping within.
Acceptance-I place this before forgiveness because I feel you have to accept the marriage is done before you can forgive the damage it's death has caused. At this point you know that you are alone. The resentment is gone because you accept that triggers from resentment are just yours alone to deal with. This is also a great time for personal growth. Confidence that you will survive on your own, that you can do thing yourself, and that the sun will still rise tomorrow.
Self-growth-Regaining on confidence continued. New perspective of the things around you. Constant questioning...of yourself and the principles we follow. At this point anything is possible....for ourselves.
Forgiveness-At this point you can forgive yourself for your part in the demise of the marriage. You can also see the pain the process has caused our spouse. The knowledge that neither party has really come out of this unscathed is apparent. You will know at this point that the journey was beneficial for both parties as long as neither got tripped up in their respective journeys. Maybe the marriage is renewed...maybe not.
Renewal-The world is different (I know that I see it differently). We are almost reborn to a life that that has unlimited potential. Things that were once taken for granted are cherished...and things thought essential are no longer that important. We are finally able to cash in on the independent self that we have found within ourselves.
Living again-At this point we move on, piece, whatever hand we have been dealt. Everything behind will be seen with compassion for the pain it caused and the enlightenment about ourselves that we achieved.
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To help with 'Detachment', 'Boundaries' & 'self care'
http://www.amazon.com/Detach-Survive-Self-Care-Midlife-Crisis-ebook/dp/B007XUDJVW/ref=pd_sim_kstore_2/184-6263592-9703669?ie=UTF8&refRID=1TX1KVTF3QXSDPH78PQR#reader_B007XUDJVW
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I picked that up some time ago Still Praying and found it a valuable resource. It was extremely cheap on amazon uk, worth getting a Kindle for!
I keep a list of book that are mentioned in people's threads on HS, often a wonderful way to find new books!
Some of the new titles I've sourced are:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crossing-Souls-River-Rite-Passage/dp/1608990842/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411295451&sr=8-1&keywords=crossing+the+souls+river
haven't begun this, read abut it on someone's thread recently, maybe someone will know who I'm talking of!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chiron-Healing-Journey-Melanie-Reinhart-ebook/dp/B00BBAZXCI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411295543&sr=8-1&keywords=chiron+and+the+healing+journey
astrological content. Chiron is often referred to as the Wounded Healer. Some very interesting parallels to MLC.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Authentic-Heart-Eightfold-Path-Midlife-ebook/dp/B000Q6772C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411295581&sr=8-1&keywords=The+authentic+heart
Have just started reading this, wonderful! I think Callan recommended it.
Have also on my shelf/kindle but have yet to read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Radical-Acceptance-Awakening-Heals-Shame-ebook/dp/B008PU8Q2Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411295743&sr=8-1&keywords=Radical+acceptance
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Respect-Desires-Desperately-Needs-ebook/dp/B004MYFQ3Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411295868&sr=8-1&keywords=love+and+respect
I have listed these from amazon for convenience but always check your library, beg and borrow and try free book sites, second hand shops and ebay. I have a very very very small budget and often get an older edition or second hand copy, and always check my library.
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I know often times many books are recommended here for newbies to gain a better understanding of what is happening...I am not a reader, but stumbled upon what I consider a pretty good e-book. Some of it is repeated material, and mirrors a lot of what can be found in the articles, but does go a little more in depth.
The name of the book is "Dancing in Hell" by Daniel West.
Interestingly enough, he states that 1 in 20 will get their spouses back. Wonder where he gets his statistics, not that it should matter...your life's journey is about YOU, not you & your spouse. But still remembering being nothing more than a puddle on the floor the thing I wanted most was the odds.
Anyway, just thought I'd pass this along.
-T
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Are there any self help books for MLCers particularly for females written with a Christian pro- marriage perspective? Seems like most i found were more about male MLC.
thanks
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Jim Conway's wife Sally Conway wrote "Women in Midlife Crisis". Used copies are still available. It's interesting enough to read but has a little too much of a "midlife is an empowering time for a woman in crisis". feel to it for me. Some parts seem to focus on the crisis aspects and others seem to focus on women being released from the bondage of their stale marriages. For the most part I've found that most of what you read about the males also applies to the females because their personalities seem to be similar in spite of their being different genders.
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Jim Conway's wife Sally Conway wrote "Women in Midlife Crisis". Used copies are still available. It's interesting enough to read but has a little too much of a "midlife is an empowering time for a woman in crisis". feel to it for me. Some parts seem to focus on the crisis aspects and others seem to focus on women being released from the bondage of their stale marriages. For the most part I've found that most of what you read about the males also applies to the females because their personalities seem to be similar in spite of their being different genders.
My book review
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1965.msg175433#msg175433
Also Surviving Male Menopause - Jed Diamond
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1965.msg175111#msg175111
also The Wisdom of Menopause" by Christine Northrup
and Menopause by Sally Conway
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1965.msg175112#msg175112
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Jed Diamond's books are very good. He is actually my IC and is very very helpful.
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So M B B is women in midlife crisis a good self help book for my W in MLC from a pro marriage standpoint? The release from the bondage of a stale marriage reference is a bit frightening to me. I did buy aused copy and is on my reading list after i finish DR Dobsons "Love must be tough"
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I'm a little confused. Are you looking for a book for yourself or for a book for your wife to read?
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I'm looking for both I guess. I'd like to think she is intelligent enough to realize what's happening to her and if she gets some good pro-marriage information on MLC then it might sink in. I'd also like to get some good information for myself and guidance. I know I'm not alone facing this now that I found this site and I find some comfort in that. I desperately want to communicate that I'm there to listen and talk with her about some of the things that she's feeling. Maybe I'm just an a$$ but almost 34 years of marriage and this comes out of nowhere. Its been a few months and divorce papers are filed and I feel that there has to be a way to break through and find my wife and try to pull her out of this living nightmare where we now find ourselves. I asked for a coach and hope that will help but I'm sure that I'm at the back of the line.
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I made a mistake I thought I asked for a Mentor. I'll ask again.
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I'm looking for both I guess. I'd like to think she is intelligent enough to realize what's happening to her and if she gets some good pro-marriage information on MLC then it might sink in.
Believe me, my xH was the type that read self-help books and was one of the most intelligent people I've ever met, but when they are in this space, they have NO awareness. You will be seen as judging her or trying to "diagnose her out of this" if you give her books. Spend your energy on you.
I'd also like to get some good information for myself and guidance. I know I'm not alone facing this now that I found this site and I find some comfort in that. I desperately want to communicate that I'm there to listen and talk with her about some of the things that she's feeling. Maybe I'm just an a$$ but almost 34 years of marriage and this comes out of nowhere. Its been a few months and divorce papers are filed and I feel that there has to be a way to break through and find my wife and try to pull her out of this living nightmare where we now find ourselves. I asked for a coach and hope that will help but I'm sure that I'm at the back of the line.
Your first sentence is the right attitude. I know it is not what you want to hear, but you are likely the last person she wants support from right now. It is physically and emotionally painful to not try to step in and stop this, especially early on, but your efforts will likely not garner the results you want. I'm sure you'll have a mentor assigned soon to lean on. So sorry you find yourself at this place, but we all can totally relate.
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Thanks R2T.
Is there any way to get her professional help? From what I'm learning, sounds like she'd just reject it anyway. I just wish there could be some kind of an intervention. This is so unbelievable to me. After living through our share of acccidents, funerals, and family tragedies that we experienced together along with the babies, weddings, and all the milestones and great things that we experienced, I felt like we really became one together. I guess I'm still in denial and disbelief.
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My dad still kind of scolds me for not having my xH committed. ;) He doesn't realize it's not 1940 and you can't just do that. Sometimes though, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea! ;)
About a year and a half before BD my xH and I talked about what was "happening" with him (he described it as not feeling like himself) and he first went to his MD who then sent him to a psychiatrist and therapist. He was diagnosed bipolar and I'm not certain that he isn't. But about 6 months in he chose to stop treatment, including meds as well as therapy. His psychiatrist warned him against it, but even he said there was nothing he could do to stop my xH if he was determined to quit. So even when they do get help - it doesn't always help, and it just proves that no one but the MLCer can make the choice for their own care.
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If they go to a therapist and get the wrong one it can make it worse. Some therapists will validate what they're doing and encourage them to find themselves.
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"Runaway Husband's" by Vikki Stark
Praise for Runaway Husbands Vikki Stark provides women whose husbands have left them abruptly an invaluable guide to understanding what has blindsided them, and offers the healing kind of help that comes from hearing stories of survivors of this often overlooked form of spousal abuse: abandonment. –Louise DeSalvo, Ph.D., author of Writing as a Way of Healing
If you marry Dr. Jekyll and get Mr. Hyde and he walks out the door with no warning, then this is the book for you. Stark’s “Seven Steps for Moving Forward” are right on and will get you back on the path—or, as she suggests, move you to an even better one. –Catherine Gildiner, Ph.D.
After the Falls and Seduction Runaway Husbands is a wonderfully moving and informative book that will help thousands of women, as well as the men who have the courage to read it. –Jed Diamond, Ph.D., author of The Irritable Male Syndrome: Understanding and Managing the 4 Key Causes of Depression and Aggression
Vikki Stark shares her personal story, along with the stories of many others she interviewed, and guides the reader through the difficult stages of recovery. This hopeful book shows not only how to cope but also how to claim yourself again. –Constance Ahrons, Ph.D..
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Anyone interested in having a monthly (or however often) book discussion? There are so many fantastic books that we have read to help us through these tough times and I think it would be interesting to discuss these with other people who have read or are reading the same books. We could take turns choosing what book we would read. Let me know and then maybe we could choose one for March.
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Have a look at this [archived, I don't know if you can open it]
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=100.150#top
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In it - let's see if we can get a few more people interested.
Calamity - thanks for that link. Some interesting books were suggested there.
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No, that link cannot be opened. It is read only.
But I have merged the new thread with the ongoing one we have here on the main board.
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Bought this book today - it was recommended by one of my pupils who suffers from depression. I was transfixed and read half of it during my lunch hour - it also made me cry.
It gives a fantastic insight into the mind of a depressive and I am not thinking of the MLCer on this occasion but the LBS who inevitably will recognise some of these symptoms and how to help yourself.
"Reasons to stay alive " by Matt Haig.
I also found it stunning to read as it helped me understand my S who is really struggling with his depression.
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It sounds like something I should read although I don't need any more reasons to cry!.
I checked it out on Amazon and found this description of depression in the first paragraph.
You are walking around with your head on fire and no one can see the flames.
It's a very good description.
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Richard Brown, An Introduction to Neuroendocrinology, It offers an explanation on how endocrine and nervous systems are connected, and how changes in them affect behaviour and personality.
A lot of what the book explains can be put to good use for a more scientific explanation of the many changes we see in our MLCers.
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Did you check the book's glossary to see if it includes a definition for the phrase "batsh*t crazy"?
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I did. It doesn't. I wonder why?... ::) ;D But it includes things with cute names, like PNMT Phenylethanolamine N- methyl transferase, OVLT Vascular organ of the lamina terminalis or GM-CSF Granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor. Now, all it takes is an English dictionary and it will be a easy, smooth read. ;) :)
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Hi, all,
I put this as a separate topic, because it isn't an "MLC resource" book -- at first I actually thought it was a novel!
It's called "We'll always have Paris", by Emma Beddington -- an English woman now living in Brussels. I does say "memoir" on the front cover, but it had the look of light, chick-lit reading, which is why I got it.
She is only in her 40's, I think, perhaps only just 40, so it's on the early side, but she describes absolutely going through what can only be described as a crisis. She refers to it as "not having lived"; but yes, she left her family, didn't even think about the hurt she was causing, all that.
It has a happy ending; she writes that she is amazed that she got a second chance...
The MLC part isn't the focus of the book, it came near the end, and I'm sure she glosses over loads of stuff, but she does talk about being in some kind of fog, and how even though she thought she was doing everything she wanted, being the person she was "supposed" to be, it turned out not to be a good reality
What most of the book describes is the long, slow process of going into the crisis. And while you are reading that it gives no hint that the crisis is looming, whcih made the crisis part come as a shock.
She doesn't state outright how long she was away; from what she writes it was probably only around 2 years, I'm sure you could work it out if thought more about it when reading the book. And she also says that even when she came back it was hard for quite a long time.
She doesn't go into how her husband behaved, she only once says that when she would say how hard things were for her (while she was gone) he would say something non-commital, and she says that they did talk during that time, but again, it's hard to know what she means, because she definitely writes about being very selfish.
It was only at the crisis part that I looked again and saw that the book had "non-fiction" on it, that made me go back and read some bits more closely. It was candidly written and gives good insight -- also about the fact that she says that still talking about feelings is hard.
She has a blog, which also has info about the book:
http://www.belgianwaffling.com/
Thought it was worth posting about.
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Interesting. I'll add it to my reading list. Thanks!
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I went back and re-read some -- she does say that she just ignored how grey and hurt her H was, she was so convinced that this was right that no matter how much her kids cried she just went and did it.
She says later that she during all this, even though they talked, she never really "saw" him.
She says she never felt competent as a parent, while her H was a great father and secure in his capabilities.
I have a feeling that she treated him much worse than she makes out to have done in the book; she is after all writing what is meant to be a funny memoir rather than an account of her MLC, but a lot comes through.
She does say that she saw how his life had become richer without her, that he was happy, which must have made a difference. They did have grandparents nearby who helped a lot with her kids, so he had that backup, which must have made a difference.
She also said that she never went to tell him that she loved him, that she wanted to come back; indeed, she didn't think that was even a possibility. She just started blurting things out to him, and he was receptive.
She did get involved with others during this time, she doesn't say if he did, it doesn't sound like it but who knows.
She also, tellingly, says that she realised the problem was her and her own ability to communicate, rather than any external source (she blamed French, and her French husband, for that before).
The whole book really was her search for identity, which of course is the crux of any MLC.
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thanks for sharing I love any insight into why and how.
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I keep re-reading more bits...
She also says that she thought that when she decided to go that it would all suddenly be easy and wonderful, and of course found that it wasn't at all like that. But she kept at it for a long time, which we of course know is typical.
I tried again to figure out how long she was away; it may have been up to 5 years, or perhaps it was 5 years from when she started saying she wanted to go or perhaps it was 5 years from when her mother died, which was a huge thing in this; I was trying to work it out from her kids' ages, but she may well be being deliberately vague on that.
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The book sounds interesting.
I've merged your thread with the books thread, because, as its title says, it is not just for MLC books.
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Trustandlove - I went to download this one but it's not available on Amazon. I'll have to find it. It sounds pretty interesting.
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I did. It doesn't. I wonder why?... ::) ;D But it includes things with cute names, like PNMT Phenylethanolamine N- methyl transferase, OVLT Vascular organ of the lamina terminalis or GM-CSF Granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor. Now, all it takes is an English dictionary and it will be a easy, smooth read. ;) :)
Anjae, stop talking like that. It makes me feel all tingly. ;D
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I just looked and it is available on the UK Amazon site, not sure where you are, RT.
I actually got it at the library, just by chance, just looking for a light read.... I'm now finding myself going over and over it.
It has all the hallmarks -- the seeds sowed in teenage years (wanting to be French), then the tragedy -- mother dying suddenly. Then what actually must have been years of trying to make reality fit dreams. Then the decision that the partner and family had to go, that that was what was holding her back.
And so on...
I guess what really resonated was the bit about her feeling that she couldn't be who she wanted to be, or even felt "destined" to be, while remaining with her family. My H said that at BD, that he couldn't be who he wanted to be if he stayed with me.
I'm sure many have heard that one in some version or another.
And yes, her actions were deliberate, but it also goes to show her pain. It's well written, not moan-y.
If a moderator reads this -- is it possible to put the book thread, or perhaps just a list of books mentioned with a link to this one, on the stickied topics at the top? That way there could be a list of titles, and people could go on the link to see what was said about the books. Would that make sense?
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I guess what really resonated was the bit about her feeling that she couldn't be who she wanted to be, or even felt "destined" to be, while remaining with her family. My H said that at BD, that he couldn't be who he wanted to be if he stayed with me.
I'm sure many have heard that one in some version or another.
I have. Probably we all heard some version of it. But what exactly does it means? That they want to go on doing totally crazy things, and that is who they are, and then, when they had enough of the crazy things, they want to be back and everything should be as before?
Of course they cannot do all that crazy stuff if they stay with their spouse/family. Which one of us was going to put up with all the absurdities? But there are things they could do and still be in the family. Mr J started djing before he left. I did not stop him, I have even encouraged him. He loves music, he is good at it, he said that it was something he wanted to try, but it would not be forever. So, I was fine with it.
Why the OW? Why leave? Why be so mean towards me? Why all the lies? I don't know. I also do not believe the crisis self is his real self. Or better, the crisis self is the real crisis self, and probably who is going to be. It has been practically 10 years since BD, but it was not who he was.
And yes, her actions were deliberate, but it also goes to show her pain. It's well written, not moan-y.
So, they know (or some of them do) what they are doing and do it deliberately. What does that makes them? And what does that makes of us? In my view their pain could be solved with a therapist/doctor, if they would find a good one and stick to the doctor.
In the end, they have the pain they had, plus the pain and damage of all they have caused. What exactly were they trying to achieve? I have no idea. Or maybe I have. Currently, I doubt I could be myself with Mr J. I am a different person than I was, the old he no longer fits, crisis Mr J of course does not do, new Mr J I do not know how he will be, but who he was no longer matches me. And I have the suspicion that, if he had not had a MLC, at a point, I would divorce him. Because I suspect he would still start to be behind big time, and I would want to move forward, keep learning, keep growing, explore new things.
We have too many stickied topics. We are always trying to reduce them, but never really succeed. But we can keep this thread active by posting on it.
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Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers by Robert Sapolsky a book that was recommend on a meditation Air shared on her thread, and that I have been reading.
This are the book's chapters:
1 Why Don’t Zebras Get Ulcers?
2 Glands, Gooseflesh, and Hormones
3 Stroke, Heart Attacks, and Voodoo Death
4 Stress, Metabolism, and Liquidating Your Assets
5 Ulcers, the Runs, and Hot Fudge Sundaes
6 Dwarfism and the Importance of Mothers
7 Sex and Reproduction
8 Immunity, Stress, and Disease
9 Stress and Pain
10 Stress and Memory
11 Stress and a Good Night’s Sleep
12 Aging and Death
13 Why Is Psychological Stress Stressful?
14 Stress and Depression
15 Personality, Temperament, and Their Stress-Related Consequences
16 Junkies, Adrenaline Junkies, and Pleasure
17 The View from the Bottom
18 Managing Stress
Those pretty much cover the issues we deal with, and often talk about here in the board. Both regarding the LBS and the MLCer. The book in written for laymen, and easy to read.
Here is a bit of chapter 15 Personality, Temperament, and Their Stress-Related Consequences:
"Your style, your temperament, your personality have much to do with whether you regularly perceive opportunities for control or safety signals when they are there, whether you consistently interpret ambiguous
circumstances as implying good news or bad, whether you typically seek out and take advantage of social support. Some folks are good at modulating stress in these ways, and others are terrible. These fall
within the larger category of what Richard Davidson has called “affective style.” And this turns out to be a very important factor in understanding why some people are more prone toward stress-related diseases
than others.
We start with a study in contrasts. Consider Gary. In the prime of his life, he is, by most estimates, a success. He’s done okay for himself materially, and he’s never come close to going hungry. He’s also had
more than his share of sexual partners. And he has done extremely well in the hierarchical world that dominates most of his waking hours. He’s good at what he does, and what he does is compete—he’s already Number 2 and breathing down the neck of Number 1, who’s grown complacent and a bit slack. Things are good and likely to get better.
But you wouldn’t call Gary satisfied. In fact, he never really has been. Everything is a battle to him. The mere appearance of a rival rockets him into a tensely agitated state, and he views every interaction with a potential competitor as an in-your-face personal provocation. He views virtually every interaction with a distrustful vigilance. Not surprisingly, Gary has no friends to speak of. His subordinates give him a wide, fearful berth because of his tendency to take any frustration out on them. He behaves the same toward Kathleen, and barely knows their daughter Caitland—this is the sort of guy who is completely indifferent to the cutest of infants. And when he looks at all he’s accomplished, all he can think of is that he is still not Number 1.
Gary’s profile comes with some physiological correlates. Elevated basal glucocorticoid levels—a constant lowgrade stress-response because life is one big stressor for him. An immune system that you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. Elevated resting blood pressure, an unhealthy ratio of “good” to “bad” cholesterol, and already the early stages of serious atherosclerosis. And, looking ahead a bit, a premature death in late middle-age.
Contrast that with Kenneth. He’s also prime-aged and Number 2 in his world, but he got there through a different route, one reflecting the different approach to life that he’s had ever since he was a kid. Someone caustic or jaded might dismiss him as merely being a politician, but he’s basically a good guy—works well with others, comes to their aid, and they in turn to his. Consensus builder, team player, and if he’s ever frustrated about anything, and it isn’t all that certain he ever is, he certainly doesn’t take it out on those around him.
A few years ago, Kenneth was poised for a move to the Number 1 spot, but he did something extraordinary—he walked away from it all. Times were good enough that he wasn’t going to starve, and he had reached the realization that there were things in life more important than fighting your way up the hierarchy. So he’s spending time with his kids, Sam and Allan, making sure they grow up safe and healthy. He has a best friend in their mother, Barbara, and never gives a thought to what he’s turned his back on.
Not surprisingly, Kenneth has a physiological profile quite different from Gary’s, basically the opposite on every stress-related measure, and enjoys a robust good health. He is destined to live to a ripe old age, surrounded by kids, grandkids, and Barbara."
The whole book is worthy read.
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My Irish friend has written a book on her story and reconciliation. It has just come out in print and I am proud to present it to H.S. It is a wonderful, moving story, that both my husband I thoroughly enjoyed. It brought us to tears and gives us much joy to know that our friend and her husband, have reconciled and are now LIVING THE DREAM.
This is woman whom my husband wrote his famous letter to.
https://www.amazon.com/One-Womans-story-Helen-Doyle-ebook/dp/B01M690UN7/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477581282&sr=8-2&keywords=helen+doyle
Enjoy...
Hugs Stayed
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This doesn't seem to be available here. Too bad.
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Actually Calamity it is... go to Amazon.ca write in the title of her book and her name... here it is...
https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=A+woman%27s+story+by+Helen+Doyle (https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=A+woman%27s+story+by+Helen+Doyle)+
hugs Stayed
Yes. I was on amazon.com [USA].
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Just jumping on this thread! Looks like I have a lot to read!!!
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I was looking for a discussion or link to more information in regards to the Pursuer/distancer Dance.
I am a classic pursuer....MLC is the classic distancer.
He has gotten comfortable knowing that I am always here, and chasing him.
I need help to change that dynamic. Not just to help our marriage and current situation, but to help myself in the future.
I am not sure how to balance the....''I'm no longer chasing you''..but ''I'm still here for you''.. dynamic.
I am looking for information here on the following topics:
-How do you handle face to face contact? (Do I avoid eye contact? Not speak unless he asks a question? Or make polite chat?)
-How do I handle personal questions? (How are you doing? Are you going out? Who you going with? etc)
-Do I pretend to be happy or just neutral? (He keeps saying ''you were fine yesterday''...I haven't been fine...I just pretend to be)
-What sort of reactions would be typical when you stop pursuit?
-How long does it take before they generally notice a change in the dynamic?
-Any helpful tips from other pursuers who learned how to curb their behaviour?
-Did you try this and see any effects in your relationship? Did it help or hurt?
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interesting discussion, I am too new to this to give any input, but what if the mlcer is a classic pursuer and the ow the distancer.
My h is a classic example of a pursuer and from what I have heard the ow is a distancer, that will make their relationship a perfect match it would seem.
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Hello Bride.. I think we all have the same questions and come to realize that each situation is unique yet the same..What works for one LBSer may not work for another..I think its safe to say this is a very personal journey and the right responses vs wrong responses are truly trial and error with our individual MCLer..But I want very much to keep this discussion open and want to hear from others ..
I am currently 2.5 years into this and I have made so many mistakes and I see where I have made some things worse.. have I pushed it past the point of no return ? that remains to be seen..
I read so many of the articles and I myself find them to be like reading a medical journal. I simply want and seek simple straight talk.. such as " I did xyz and it worked for me".. or "you can try this approach and see what happens" there is so much on this forum , which is wonderful, and I spend a lot of time reading and I find things that are very helpful.. But there are times I just want to hear an example from others..not to use presay , but to think about, to gauge.
So my responses to a few of your questions are..
1, I am a pursuer as well, and I am a fixer.. This has not helped my situation and my pursuit has in fact pushed my H away and maybe closer to OW.. So iam not pursuing my H any longer.. not to get him back but because I feel that since he left he wants space so I'm giving him his space. its taken me 2.5 years to get that but hey better late than never..pulse I now choose to not pursue my H because I simply am not a game player. as a consequence of my lack of pursuit has that affected my H? maybe.. I do not initiate contact with him any longer, but he now makes contact with me via email and I did receive a phone call from him last week, that in fact went rather well..
2, I have not seen my H in 10 months other than 2 small meetings that did not go very well mainly because i let my emotions show...
3,I have found for our situation it is best to keep any conversations strictly business.. the bills, our daughter, his job, repairs for the house etc.. and questions that get too personal always and I mean always lead to my H pulling away..
4, I am basically taking the " positive/neutral " road in this.. I'm not happy about what is happening, but I cant control it so I look for the positive through my day.. I am trying to have a neutral attitude about anything he does.. Its not good to have any expectations with them.
so I have pulled away from my H .. I do not initiate contact with him ( he sends an email a few times a week Basically with the same message and tone " Hi (pet name) I hope you are doing well" I do not reply each time and when I do i say "I'm fine , Thank you"
I have no real idea what my H thinks or feels.. He says one thing but his actions say another.. as an example.. He says he misses me, but he will not physically see me..He has said in the past that there have been times he thinks about coming bac.. but i have not seen anything from him where he has even come close to pulling away from OW..
I am just working on me.. trying to stay positive.. trying to not react to what he says or does, trying to keep a sense of humor, and most importantly I'm letting go of trying to control him or the situation..
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I don't think either one of us were pursuers or distancers UNTIL this happened. We were on about the same level. We did both at different times.
After BD I guess at first I did pursue him because he distanced himself and I didn't know anything about MLC.
I had to know what was happening so I pursued.
I soon found out the more I left him alone the more he came to me.
I guess the best way I can answer your questions is to think of your MLCer as a co-worker or a distant relative...or a roommate you didn't know that well.
Act how you would with them. You would be polite and friendly, but not overly friendly. You wouldn't talk about your personal life, only light chit chat.
If they asked you how you are, you most likely would say, I'm fine thank you for asking. Positive and neutral.
You would never ask about their personal life. You wouldn't care where they go or what they do.
You would not get emotional around them. You most likely wouldn't argue with them.
It takes a LOT of practice but if you do it long enough it really does help to take the emotions out of it.
Every time you want to ask something ask yourself if you would ask a co-worker that question.
If they ask you something, how would you answer a distant relative?
The key is don't treat or think of them as a spouse.
Like I said, it takes awhile but this way you are taking the pressure off both of you.
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Very simple, when he says "I've had enough, we should divorce" (or anything else you don't want) instead of trying to convince him of the error of his thinking, you say "Go ahead, if that's what you want, do it."
It will scare the hell out of him and stop him in his tracks.
When the pursuer stops pursuing they don't know what to do and start to worry.
You see, the distancer was always the boy who cried wolf. He wanted you to pursue. In fact, my husband admitted to me shortly after bomb drop he is afraid to chase women because of fear of rejection, he wants to be chased.
However, in MLC, you can't offer them that kind of reassurance or they will walk all over you. So you have to become the distancer.
I gave my H the total cold shoulder the last two days. I wouldn't look him in the eye or even say more than 2 words to him when he spoke to me. Then he was like a fly half of today pestering me about this and that.
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Very simple, when he says "I've had enough, we should divorce" (or anything else you don't want) instead of trying to convince him of the error of his thinking, you say "Go ahead, if that's what you want, do it."
It will scare the hell out of him and stop him in his tracks.
When the pursuer stops pursuing they don't know what to do and start to worry.
You see, the distancer was always the boy who cried wolf. He wanted you to pursue. In fact, my husband admitted to me shortly after bomb drop he is afraid to chase women because of fear of rejection, he wants to be chased.
However, in MLC, you can't offer them that kind of reassurance or they will walk all over you. So you have to become the distancer.
I gave my H the total cold shoulder the last two days. I wouldn't look him in the eye or even say more than 2 words to him when he spoke to me. Then he was like a fly half of today pestering me about this and that.
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Thank you for all your responses they are helping and it is good to read everyone's experiences.
''The key is don't treat them like a spouse.''
Ugh that was a tough one. Nearly cried. You are right of course..but sometimes stuff like that still gets me. :'(
It is so hard to keep your emotions out of it.
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How do you handle face to face contact? (Do I avoid eye contact? Not speak unless he asks a question? Or make polite chat?)
-How do I handle personal questions? (How are you doing? Are you going out? Who you going with? etc)
-Do I pretend to be happy or just neutral? (He keeps saying ''you were fine yesterday''...I haven't been fine...I just pretend to be)
-What sort of reactions would be typical when you stop pursuit?
-How long does it take before they generally notice a change in the dynamic?
-Any helpful tips from other pursuers who learned how to curb their behaviour?
-Did you try this and see any effects in your relationship? Did it help or hurt?
If I had to have contact with him ( I avoided this at all cost), but if I HAD to see him, all I had in me was " hello". Nothing more. I asked him nothing with a question mark on the end. I answered him calmly and to the point. I made myself "busy" ... on my phone, talking with one of my kids or anyone that might have been around. I made "normal" eye contact. As soon as I could , I ended conversations and moved away from him. Example: I absolutely had to see him at my daughters university graduation. SHE did not want to go to the ceremony and cried and cried. She said " I do not want him there , I do not want to see him ,,,, BUT , I cannot graduate without him" . So, I insisted that this was a very important achievement and that we were going ... no matter what . He showed up , he said HI and sat beside me ( I had not seen him in over a month). I chatted to my mother ... who was now crying because she thought he looked like his eyes "were dead" and that he should be in hospital etc etc . He overheard me telling my mother I was starving , and off he went. He returned with a sandwich and a drink and handed it to me (?????) . Bizarre. Later , ( at a celebratory dinner) someone said " family picture time" and up he jumped and stood behind me, pressing up close with his hands on my hips . Everyone was so stunned by him... some had not seen or heard from him in months and could not believe he had the nerve to show up. He paid for my dinner and was gone. No questions, no comments ... let him go . ( cried for days )
Personal questions : " I am fine , thanks " . Nothing more . ZERO. Any probing questions ( who are you going with?) .. I would not answer. If he pushed I would simply say " I am going out for a bit with some friends ". He should not be asking you anything pushy or personal . afterall, this is what he wanted . You may have to remind him of that if he continues to push.
"pretending " to be happy?. Many say be " light , upbeat etc" and I guess that this is a good answer. No crying , questions, begging ... just respond as if he was the neighbour ...no more, no less.
Reactions to stop pursuing ?. I do not believe there is anything you do or do not do that will change his crisis . Remember ... it is not about you at all. So if you are doing things to get an expected response... you may frequently be disappointed. You are not dealing with a typical "normal" man. These men are nor anyone that you know anymore. Anything that you do decide to "do", should be for you , about you, what you need , what hurts and protects YOU ... not in anticipation of his reactions. They are utterly unpredictable .
I am a relentless pursuer . I was able to cut contact with him as I was so traumatized..I simply could not see him. I felt "in shock". I went total self-protective "flee" ... away from him. I will likely work on my "pursuing nature " ( my attachment style) for the rest of my life . Therapy is helping me understand the root of my pursuing , why I do that and how to change it. It is a result of childhood hurts .
Did you try this and see any effects in your relationship? Did it help or hurt?. Again, "trying" or making strategies to try to influence his behaviour is fruitless. And cannot be permanent . Focus only on yourself and let his journey runs its full course to whatever permanent change will happen internally inside of him. Let go ...
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I think 'tactics' are one thing, but the most important bit to get is that NOTHING you say or do is going to make any difference to what your H thinks, feels or does. NOTHING. Your actions might drag it out a bit or make it a little worse BUT YOU CANNOT FIX OR CHANGE HIM. It takes most of us a long time to get to the point where we feel the truth of this as opposed to thinking we get it. Your H has 'virtually' left the building and MLC H is not the same spouse. So, pursuing will probably push him away but not pursuing will not magically bring him back if that makes sense?
The second big LBS ah-ha is that how you manage contact with them is FOR YOU not for them. You don't ask questions because the answers will hurt you, make no sense or you won't get any. You reduce your emotion because it helps you to manage your own and stay sane. You GAL so you don't lose sight of who you are and the rest of life. You go slow and use the rule of 3 so you can make the wisest choices in the middle of crazy chaos. You focus on factual things - money, kids etc - because MLCers can't be trusted with these things and often they need you to protect them. You go NC, or any other phrase, because it helps YOU do what YOU need to do to cope with the current reality. And, when all else fails, you do nothing and let your intuition guide you. Please be kind to yourself. You are obviously a really smart woman, but you are in the early stages of this and you will learn as you go and as you see the MLC version of your H unfold.
We've all made mistakes. You could paper a room with the letters and encouraging cards I sent my H in the first 6 months! Did it make a difference? No. Do I think the odd one touched him? Maybe, time will tell (maybe). Did it matter to me to try to think of my H with more love than anger, to try to keep faith and compassion for him? Yes. In the end, all any of us can do is hold fast to who we are and do our best. It matters to me that, even when I was tempted, I haven't really done anything that I feel ashamed or bad about. I haven't added to the destruction even if I couldn't stop my H's headlong descent.
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Barbie-
Thanks again for all the guidance.
He spent a week telling me how sexy I was, how he ''would do me'', giving me the eyes, hugging me and resting his hands on my butt, showing off his Abs....then he 180 monster me!
We were talking to the kids about Halloween and he was like ''Ooo I will wear my big cape'' and I was like...''Didn't think you would be going?!''
Stopping the pursuit is more for me. I know he needs space both from MLC and being a normal distancer. I pursue him to fix the problem..but we know it just makes it worse. So it isn't to get a reaction from him (although that would be nice), it is more to teach myself not to pursue him (or others) when there is no need. Does that make sense?
Treasur-
I appreciate nothing I do with fix the situation, but if I continue to pursue it will likely damage the situation. So I am looking for ways to stop myself making it worse, versus trying to fix him. And again, I would like these skills not just in dealing with him, but in the future as well.
Could you please explain the rule of 3?
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Could you please explain the rule of 3?
Lets see if I have it right.
Before you do anything, say anything wait 3 mins. or 3 hours, 3 days or 3 weeks.
Also I will add put a rubber band around your wrist and snap it if you do not follow the above.
Trying to teach you patience.
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So do you rotate how often or just use them in context?
Ie 3 minutes or 3 hours for a text... 3 hours or 3 days for an email sorta thing?
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As I see and use it, ‘3’ is arbitrary. A stand-in for ‘respond, not react’. It is just as OP said: to teach you patience. You wait a while before you respond to MLCer’s words and actions. It is mainly to save you from regrets. When you see or hear something from MLCer, you have immediate emotional reaction because you are human. Hold on for a little while, cool down and then respond briefly and calmly. This approach keeps paying dividends for me. I feel a whole lot more peaceful since I started to focus on not reacting but responding. Sometimes, keeping my mouth shut and fingers away from the keyboard have proven to be the best response.
Good news is that this ‘skill’ improves with time and practice.
You could start practicing it with simple things, such as:
MLCer: ‘Why is this kitchen so messy?’
If you react, you may say: Well, do you think I’m the only one responsible my job for a tidy kitchen?’; If you don’t like it, why don’t you clean it yourself?’’; ‘I’m sick of kids leaving everything behind for me to clean up after them!’
If you stop and think for a while, your reply would be very different. Something like: ‘O boy, this kitchen does look like it can do with some cleaning up. We can do this together and it can be done in a jiffy.’ All delivered with a neutral expression and calm voice, and a little smile thrown in. Eye contact.
For much more important issues, calm down and think as long as you need to respond. Sometimes, no response is the best response.
Hope it helps...
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So do you rotate how often or just use them in context?
Ie 3 minutes or 3 hours for a text... 3 hours or 3 days for an email sorta thing?
Here is Stayed's explantation I think
Oh goodness NO! I would never do that. They will find out in their own good time.
Good though that you paused, thought about it, decided to ask for opinions. We recommend the rule of 3, which is a cooling off period, giving you the chance to calm down and think it through.
In any extreme situation you cannot survive for more than:
3 minutes without air - 3 hours without shelter
3 days without water - 3 weeks without food.
We have extrapolated that to the RULE OF 3 for emotional well being:
3 minutes to breath, long deep breaths... to calm!
3 hours to shelter your heart and engage your brain!
3 days to be sure you want to do it.
3 weeks to either let it go, or go ahead.
Of course there are many variances, such as asking yourself every 3 minutes if you still wish to do this... or 3 hours/3 days/3 weeks, after asking yourself 3 times if you STILL want to do something... then go ahead and do it. If you do not come to the same conclusion all 3 times, consider it ... A BAD IDEA! Not sure if this is a very good explanation of how it works, but hopefully you get the idea.
Never do anything you MIGHT not be able to live with. Never do anything that might hurt others, just to make yourself feel better. Never lash out in anger. Etc. Etc. Remember, it is YOUR credibility that is at stake! Your honour! Your opinion of yourself! Try not to jeopardize your self respect, you have to live with yourself and that reflection in the mirror.
Not that we haven't all done a few things we are not particularly proud, which is why I am warning you. In the end, it is YOURSELF you have to love, honour and respect.
Hugs Stayed