Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: rediscover on January 02, 2012, 02:18:00 PM
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I searched the site but couldn't find a thread on this subject. If I missed it please feel free to combine threads.
I have questions about standing and the LBS having a physical relationship or dating.
I am standing. I love my husband, I love my family. I waiver between wanting to stop standing for my sanity and continuing to stand for the same reason. My husband and I had a very active sex life. We had sex every day, unless we were apart or one of us was seriously not feeling well. I miss having sex. I am attractive, and even when I was with my husband I was hit on all of the time. When I was crying and a mess, locked in my house early on in H's crisis I didn't have a problem. The more social and the more I live my life as IF he is not coming back the harder it is to resist attractive men. I have went on a couple of dates, they were not typical dates with a regular guy I met at work or a bar. The dates were with one man, a celebrity that I met in April. He's very nice and a perfect gentleman. Extremely attractive and I do my best to stay away from him, because I can easily see myself rebounding to him. I also have been spending a bit of time with a man who is friends with my husband. He and I were not friends before H left. We happened upon each other by chance and started talking. He's very nice and he does not talk to my H, he hasn't in a very long time. Not only do we laugh and have fun, we are both very sexual and it has been very tempting to just go for it. Both of us have reservations because of the friendship with H. He's very aware that IF anything happened between us it would only be sexual, it would not be a relationship.
I have, even before my H left, thought he was with someone else. He is. Last month I found out they are living together. He still has not admitted the relationship began before he left. It did. I'm positive it did. My H was not a faithful man early in our relationship. Was he faithful during the entire marriage? I doubt it, especially in the last 3 or 4 years before he left. He was traveling more, he was away from me for longer periods of time because he was throwing himself into work. He was searching. So, yes it is highly likely that he had affairs with women aside from the OW. I can forgive him for this, I know I can.
Could he forgive me? I don't know. Also, IF there is a reconciliation how would this fit into the process.
I thought for the longest time that I didn't want another man in my life. It's not that I want to spend my life with another man, I just want a man. I want the friendship, the connection, the intimacy. I'm not sure others feel about this. It seems it's not talked about very much. I do know a few women that are standing that have had other relationships. They don't talk about it much, but maybe because they are actual people that I know and not a complete stranger looking for answers.
Any thoughts? Any one else with the same issues?
thanks
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Wow, I am so glad you posted this as I too have this issue. It's only 2 months since H left but I miss sex so much. I'm 35 and in my sexual prime. I too do not want a life with another man but I do miss and enjoy sex. I am not sure how that fits in with me standing?
I too am very interested to read any other reponses.
Edited my post to be a bit more clear. It is sex that I am missing more than the actual flattery of male company.
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Hi Re,
Nice subject. I've thought about it a lot myself. My H and I had just re-ignited our fires about 8 months before BD. In fact, the last time we were sexual together, it was AMAZING. That was 1 week before BD. I haven't had sex since then, 2 years and 3 1/2 months. I've had offers. Especially when we first split a few guys who know my H hit on me. Of course I turned them down.
I hear what you say about wanting to be with a man, but is that what you really want? Or is it just the attention? Could it be that you need a release and sex is one of the closest ideas you have of one right now?
Believe, I'm in no way judging you. If a great looking guy walk up and kissed me it'd be EXTREMELY hard to resist.
The thing you need to ask yourself is....could you forgive yourself? A person can be forgiven if they forgive themselves. If you couldn't forgive yourself, then there's no reason to ask if your H could forgive you.
But please, please don't think I'm judging you because I know what I'm saying comes a little bit across like that. I'm just relaying what I've said to myself so many times that I can't count.
When my H first left I thought I was so horny I was going to explode. Then I realized that it wasn't that I needed sex, it was that I wanted to be loved and my emotions had no idea how to manifest themselves other than to tell me that I needed sex.
Good luck.
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Great topic.
I'm in the same boat.
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It's definitely sex I miss. I get plenty of attention. I usually go out with out makeup and just in jeans. Last time I dressed up to go out was on D10's birthday and H met us for dinner. After, went for a walk with my D's and a girlfriend. Three guys gave me their numbers. My gf was jealous.
It's definitely the physical contact that I miss.
Actually, even the morning my h told me he was leaving after he told me. He had sex with me. He left for 6 days and came back for 5 days. We had sex every single day he was home. We always had an amazing sex life.
Everything about this MLC/LBS situation really stinks!!!
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Its so hard its a catch 22 sitch.............we can stand for the rest of our lives and our h's never wake up or if they do will they still want us...........so many of us get offers for another R, dating or whatever.............but can we handle that emotionally its ok saying its only for the intimacy no strings attached....but can you handle that ............loneliness can lead to bad choices or choices made out of desperation............were at risk of rebound and we face the same problems our h's face if we have not dealt with our own issues first............not only that if your still married then that would be adultery too........its so hard when all you want to is to feel apart of a R again............but don’t do it to get your h back or for revenge because you will only hurt yourself.........everyone as choices and i think its up to every individual what they choose no one can tell them its ok because its not them that after deal with the after affects.................my friend did this.........did she feel better NO but its something she as to live with.................. but i do understand how people arrive at this decision it can be a very lonely time standing xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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good topic rediscover. Like turk, I am also 35, had my last baby over 2 years ago and feel I am in my prime too. I feel less inhibited than when I was younger and my libido has returned following childbearing and breastfeeding and I do miss sex a lot.
I mentioned before on the forum that I have had a fling with and old friend and a short relationship with someone else (blips in my stand, I guess) in the last 6 mths and I do not regret these events (my H and I had serious intimacy problems that were exacerbated by 2 years trying to conceive no. 2 , my pregnancy, breastfeeding, his madonna/ow problems and his passive agressive behaviour in crisis. So by the time BD happened, (the discovery of the affair) lets just say I have never felt less attractive in my life than then. Having sex with someone who thought I was attractive and sexy and appreciated my body and did not have any issues with the fact that I was a mother was so refreshing that thinking about it almost makes me want to cry! I don't know how it would affect H and his likelihood of return if he knew (he does not know about the fling with the old friend, but he does know I dated someone I met in my new town), but in all honesty he is so emeshed with OW that I don't honestly think he could possibly care (he has been living with her for a year and still seems to be chasing the infatuation high - which I don't think he actually feels anymore). For me the sex was liberating, but I would caution that it could be quite easy to find oneself feeling lustful and confusing it for love in a MLC fashion.
I miss sex, but I do not want a relationship right now. Because I married quite young and was very inexperienced with men, I did not give too much thought to how having a physical relationship might affect the man I was dating - I thought that men were great at seperating love and sex. Turns out, that may be the case in their 20s, but men in their 40s are more sensitive. So, I ended up inadvertantly hurting the guy I was dating when I ended things - he seemed to be taking things more seriously than I was, EVEN though I warned him that I did not think I could offer him a proper relationship the way my life is right now, with the kids and everything. Anyway, I don't have any answers. The fling with an old friend I truly do not regret and will not tell H about it if he were to ever want to return - he removed himself from my life and so the details of it are no longer his concern. I am not dating now because I realise that next time I sleep with someone I want to be in a place where I am ready to consider a real relationship and I am fully healed, and I still have quite a way to go on that one.
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The definition of "standing" accepted by most people here, including RCR does not allow sexual dalliances. How you choose to conduct your life, though obviously, is up to you.
I have always been honest about my sitch. I have had a lovely FWB arrangement for over 1.5 years, since six months post BD. But, I understand myself to be a rare woman who can separate sex and love and I am liberal enough to want to. I have sometimes considered myself standing in spite of that. I feel like all has to be fair or I wouldn't even want him back--if he was able to go off and have an affair, and leave me for her--if he ever got it in his head that he wanted back, well, he would have to accept that I didn't want to be alone while he was setting up house with some other person. That's just me--I considered my marriage over on BD, so I never felt I had anything to be ashamed of and I did not ever believe I violated a promise or hurt anyone by doing what I did. Only you can know how would feel, but do take enough time to be sure, living with regret would suck...
However, I know now that I am no longer standing, and my FWB arrangement is ending. It is two years, the divorce is final, exH is remarried and I want to open myself to the possibility of something real. Dating sucks, but I like being a half of a couple, I just do, I want to go to parties with other couples--I don't get invited to them anymore, and I hate that. I also love to cook and entertain, and in that regard, I can be a great asset to someone who appreciates that, and my H never did.
Anyway, that's all stuff to put in my thread. I think if you go that route, you would not be considered a "stander" here, but you have to do what's right for you. And I get it, for me if was about sex, not love or even companionship, though I like that too, and my FWB really probably is my best friend, but at the heart--it's about sex... That was never the part of my marriage I considered sacred, just the bonus!
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Thank you for posting this!
My h and I had great sex, it was frequent and varied and loving and the sex we had after the trial separation was especially mindful.
Right now, as much as I love sex, I couldn't have a R with another man (or woman, It did come up in an individual session as part of MC had I thought of being with a woman but I know i'm not gay.I have gay women friends but I know I'm straight)
I would be using someone else and it's only been 3 months since h dropped bd 2.
and I'm too emotionally caught up with h even though i've distanced and detached brilliantly in many ways.
Gah, well I'll just wait and see. but he was my lover for half of my life. sigh.
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I think we all feel your pain....
I've been having sex with my husband consistently since a period of "hyperbonding" at about the 4 month mark, I think. It has been good, great, excellent, terrible, ho hum... successful, NOT successful.. fulfilling, tender, distant..... same as a FWB sitch. I like sex just fine, but what I really enjoy is the superficial intimacy, the paving the way.. showing him I'M not the cause of his ED, LOL!! and confusing him about his "R" with OW.
Sometimes... no... a LOT of times I feel my beauty and sexuality and personality is being WASTED... collecting dust, and when my husband gets his sh** together he will have missed so much and I'll be an old lady by then, LOL!! So, I get where you are coming from. You must really think this through and follow your TRUE GUT INSTINCTS.... as your husband is finding out, a fling on the side brings GREAT complications.... some you weren't prepared for....
Long ago, someone asked my Grandmother if she ever thought about finding a new man for companionship.... (her husband, the love of her life was deceased at 52).... here is the answer she gave....
"Yes, I have thought about it.... but I figure the screwin' I'd get wouldn't be worth the SCREWIN' I'd get...". She knew it wouldn't just be the companionship she so sorely missed.... and she knew it wouldn't be fulfilling.... she knew it would just be another COMPLICATION.
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First guy to chime in here (unless someone posts at the same time). I really, really miss the sex but right now I could not bring myself to be with another woman. The fantasy is exciting and if I were drinking and someone came onto me it might be on, but as far as actively pursuing another woman for sex let's just say it ain't happening. Whether it's my shrivelled self-esteem or love for my W I don't know, but I just don't have it in me at the present time.
I'm really surprised to see how many women there are who seem to need it just as bad. Maybe when or if I do end up in the dating scene it will be much more exciting than high school was.....
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I think the closest thing that describes how I feel about sex and the whole situation we've been dealing with is out there on celluloid in " Something's Got to Give" , when the character that Diane Keaton plays begins to cry after having sex with the character played by Jack Nicholson, and she says something like, I thought I had closed up shop. In other words, that part of her life was over.
In many ways, I feel like that too.
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I have a link to my email on my profile page if anyone ever had a reason to use it. I also accept PM's. Just sayin'.
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Thundarr, you are funny!!!
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I am standing, although I can see how this could get difficult. I am deeply bonded to my H and can't imagine even being able to fantasize about another man. Honestly its been about twenty years since I looked at someone else and even found them attractive. However who knows how I would react in a real situation with the right person? I think I would be terrified that my H would find out, and this might further motivate him to distance himself. The double standard is alive and well among men. They can sleep with twenty women and be away for years, and then get upset if their wife loses it one time.
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Thundar
REALLY? I hope that you are trying to be funny but for some reason I am afraid that isn't the case. I would hope that your experience as a counselor would caution you as to the ill effects such words could bring. If I am misintrepreting your comments please forgive me.
I would like to thank in advance the gentlemen here who wouldn't be so bold as to "offer " services to the lonely hurt women here.
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G4M,
As I said on my thread last night, that's about as close to humor as I can muster at this time. I'll bet most of the males who read this thread thought about it though. Maybe we should have a Members Only adult section, kind of like Penthouse Letters. We get close to it sometimes anyway. :)
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Well as an LBS that's reconnecting/reconciling or whatever the he!! anybody calls this dance we're doing I can tell you this;
I haven't had actual intercourse for going on four years.
During us being physically separated ( and divorced this past year) I desparaetly wanted to feel a mans touch as I felt like a total FREAK ( some of you might remember my struggle) I did have a dinner date with someone that I found attractive and left it up to him to decide how the evening ended.
He was an honorable man and I went home alone.
It would have been just sex to me; some reassurance that I was still a desireable woman. He made the comment he was in a relationship but it was just sex.......so I guess he wanted our relationship to be more than that; but I didn't.
Anyway the other day after some of the air was cleared about the exskank I told ExH about having dinner with this man as I said I wanted no secrets between us. I also told him I was fully prepared to spend the night with this guy and that it was this guys decision that nothing happened. ExH demanded to know why :o I said maybe the guy wasn't sexually attracted to me. ExH snorted "yeah RIGHT!!"
(Geez how the hell do I know why the guy passed me over??)
Then he got really mad and said "You went out to DINNER with this guy???!!!" I said "Yeah- you happened to be effing exskank at the time!!!!!"
Here we are divorced - living in separate houses- he's doing god knows what with somebody else IN OUR BED IN OUR HOUSE and givng me a rash of sh!t for going out to dinner with somebody?????? You've GOT to be kidding me.
I can tell you now I'm sort of glad nothing happened as I would have had to have told him. THEN we'd have that pile of wreckage to sort through also.
But I would really like to have sex sometime in the foreseeable future.... ::)
...
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I hear ya In This, But with MLC 'the foreseeable future' means when Justin Bieber is president....Oh he's Canadian. LOL!
For the record, the anonymous record, I've only had eyes for 1 man since I met him ;D I even ran and hid under the blankets when Hs friend texted me "XO" ::)
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First with respect Thundarr, In the weakened and confused state you find yourself, please do not get involved with anyone until you stabilize the sitch's at home, work, and with MLC wife. You would only be using and feeling used.
I find the commentary from the LBS ladies quite interesting particularly your willingness to still be intimate with your MLC'r.
My "X" had very little ok no interest in sex with me as she immersed herself in the fog while blaming me for all ills on the planet.
The little I know of her actions following the onset of her crisis I heard described as fluff girl at frat party.
Sex and Standing - Sex is easy, intimacy is hard - The little dating I've done had great sex with no intimacy - It almost felt like a physical extension of porn. I cannot use people like that.
I will never rationalize that it was "just sex", Thats kind of like saying "We are only friends".
Peace on your journeys
Mac
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I'll bet most of the males who read this thread thought about it though.
Speak for yourself.
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I caught that Thundarr was being humorous...I mean if we don't laugh about the ridiculousness of our situations we would have to cry right?
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Thundarr was not being serious. He was trying to be funny. If you can't laugh at the situation we've found ourselves in maybe that is another issue to work out.
I hear enough bickering and arguing spewing from my H. I don't need to come here and hear it too!!
In all seriousness, sex and standing is what I wanted to know about. It's only a small part of marriage and it's no more a betrayal to have sex with someone outside of the marriage than it is to share details of our relationship openly on the Internet. One of the things that upset me most about my H and OW is not the sex part, because sex is not always intimate, it was the part where he shared details of our marrige with OW. He shared private details about my life and the lives of our family with an outsider. An outsider who "helped" him by "helping" him leave his family.
Why is it a double standard that H can have all the sex he wants with OW and IF I have sex I'm no longer standing? How can someone else tell me I'm not standing in this case?
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Mac - I appreciate your point of view, but I do think that issues of intimacy and sex can be quite complicated. Most young women confuse the two, whereas many young men seperate them and have no problem having sex without confusing it for love. I have found as I get older (as a woman) that whilst I like sex with intimacy and love the most, I am more comfortable with my sexuality in general, and do not necessarily require the "safety" of knowing I am loved in order to be with a man (that said, I am not comfortable sleeping with just anyone, there does need to be a spark and trust, it is just that love is not the same prerequisite anymore). I don't know why this is the case, it is thought that women in the 30s tend to have a greater libido (or at least feel more sexually confidant) than they did in the 20s, so maybe that is part of it. Maybe it is because in society young women who are "free with sex" are judged whereas young men are applauded - then there is the fear of an unwanted pregancy at a young age without the life knowledge, skills and stability to provide for it... In my 30s I care less about people judging me (I can have a sexual relationship with a person and my entire social circle does not need to know about it as they would when we are in high school or even college), I have had babies and I am not afraid of pregnancy the same way, I am already providing for my kids and raising them on my own and I know how to protect myself properly from pregnancy and disease, and I am not worried about expecting a man my age to comply with that - if they don't the deal is off ;D!!! Anyway, I don't plan to have sex with someone again until I know that I may be open to a the development of a proper relationship (because I don't want to lead someone on, but I am not ready for commitment to another man right now).
The times when I did break my stand I know that it was partly an ego thing - with my friend it was fine because we did both understand that we were "just friends" - not that we were lying to anyone to cover up an affair, we were friends who were having sex with each other, we were both consenting adults and knew there was not going to be a relationship from it, and that it would not ruin a friendship either.
I do believe sleeping with the guy I was dating was a mistake because it contributed to my hurting him a bit when I broke it off (because he would not accept that I was not ready for the kind of commitment he wanted and was impatient about meeting my kids so that we could see more of each other - I was not ready for that at all). If I could change how I allowed that situation to develop I would - hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I had given up standing then as H was seriously pushing for divorce at the time and I was feeling futile about everything when I happened to meet someone who wanted to be with me. It goes to show that the generally the advice here is good - sleeping with someone (unless you have stopped standing and are fully healed) is going to hurt someone (and probably not us LBS's actually because, if we are honest, are hearts are still healing and we still have vestiges of love our MLCer for whatever that is worth).
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He shared private details about my life and the lives of our family with an outsider
See this part doesn't bother me in the least bit..wanna know why??
BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL LIARS!!! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!!!
And you can bet your sweet butt they have been or are lying to OW TOO!! About anything and everything!!!!
Think about it..they have made up a bunch of sh!t to get the sympathey, ego stroke, WHATEVER!! And even if they tell the TRUTH eventually the OW thinks it's a lie anyway!!!
It's only a small part of marriage and it's no more a betrayal to have sex with someone outside of the marriage than it is to share details of our relationship openly on the Internet.
I'm not sure about this statement but I get what you mean.It's apples and oranges.
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In all seriousness, sex and standing is what I wanted to know about. It's only a small part of marriage and it's no more a betrayal to have sex with someone outside of the marriage than it is to share details of our relationship openly on the Internet. One of the things that upset me most about my H and OW is not the sex part, because sex is not always intimate, it was the part where he shared details of our marrige with OW. He shared private details about my life and the lives of our family with an outsider. An outsider who "helped" him by "helping" him leave his family.
Why is it a double standard that H can have all the sex he wants with OW and IF I have sex I'm no longer standing? How can someone else tell me I'm not standing in this case?
You have to do what's right for you. As you can see, even some of the men on this board view sex as more sacred than you do--we are all different, with different values and expectations. If you choose to have a fling, will you be okay with yourself, with the other person, and will you be okay if H comes back, but can't forgive you? Or will you not disclose it? I think there are probably a few judgmental people on here who would call you an immoral adulterer for even thinking it, but that is the culture of THIS forum--it is for standers and standing means honoring your vows even if your spouse doesn't. Examine your heart and your head and do what works for you, but be honest, with yourself and any other person you choose to involve. Be safe and be smart. Love and light, Lisa
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In all seriousness, sex and standing is what I wanted to know about. It's only a small part of marriage and it's no more a betrayal to have sex with someone outside of the marriage than it is to share details of our relationship openly on the Internet.
That is certainly a subjective statement. You may think there is no difference, but many people would give those two things different weight. Some may think that what he tells OW doesn't matter, because she's almost certainly not getting the whole picture.
One of the things that upset me most about my H and OW is not the sex part, because sex is not always intimate, it was the part where he shared details of our marrige with OW. He shared private details about my life and the lives of our family with an outsider. An outsider who "helped" him by "helping" him leave his family.
As LisaLives said, people have different opinions on sex outside of the marriage.
In general, women report that having their husbands become emotionally intimate with another woman is more upsetting than a physical affair, where men report that having their wives sleeping with someone else is more upsetting than an emotional affair.
Why is it a double standard that H can have all the sex he wants with OW and IF I have sex I'm no longer standing? How can someone else tell me I'm not standing in this case?
When we talk about Standing, it has a very specific connotation to it; it's not about simply keeping your options open, it's about making a principled stand to preserve your marriage. It is possible that someone in an "open" or non-monogamous marriage could choose to Stand, but in my experience, people who live in "open" or non-monogamous marriages tend not to view marriage as a lifetime commitment. (Personally, I've seen several couples try the "open marriage" thing and it never, ever seems to work in the long run.)
No one is saying that he should be allowed to sleep around with no repercussions. If infidelity is a deal-breaker for you, then file for divorce. If it's not, then he is going to have to accept responsibility for his affair and seek to heal things and you will have to decide if he can be trustworthy. But you give up the moral high ground when it comes to him being intimate with others when you start doing it yourself. Can you really say that you are working on preserving your marriage if you're seeing someone else? Even if it's just "a fling" or a one-night stand?
For one, dating or having casual sex with others while you are married and hoping to reconcile can bring unneeded complication into your life. What if the guy who are seeing decides he wants a more serious relationship with you? Does he just get dumped? How is that fair to him?
Also, you run the risk of exposing yourself to who knows what you start sleeping with someone else. VD, a whole host of other communicable diseases, maybe even an unintended pregnancy. (To be fair, your husband is running the exact same risks, and the two of you will have to deal with that when the time comes.)
Finally, how do you think your husband would react to that if you told him that? Yes, he's being a dog and is having an affair. But if and when he comes to his senses and chooses to reconcile, you will have to answer for your behavior just as he has to answer for his. Is "But you started it!" really the argument you want to go with?
If you want to see other people, then maybe you should consider filing for divorce yourself. There is nothing that says that you cannot get remarried to your husband — my parents remarried, after almost a year after their divorce — and you have a clear basis for deciding what kind of relationship you want, with whoever you want, down the road.
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Rediscover,
sex and standing is what I wanted to know about. It's only a small part of marriage and it's no more a betrayal to have sex with someone outside of the marriage than it is to share details of our relationship openly on the Internet. One of the things that upset me most about my H and OW is not the sex part, because sex is not always intimate, it was the part where he shared details of our marrige with OW. He shared private details about my life and the lives of our family with an outsider. An outsider who "helped" him by "helping" him leave his family.
That is the same way that I feel. Does it bother me that my H was physically unfaithful? Yes. But, it bothers me more that he shared intimate details about our marriage and how he felt with someone - besides me - and that he didn't let me in. But, felt comfortable to tell her. Even though, I know, that she was given his warped view of what our marriage was like and - most likely - not told the "truth" either. The physical part doesn't bother me as much as the intimate part. (Even though both are betrayals and both bother me).
Why is it a double standard that H can have all the sex he wants with OW and IF I have sex I'm no longer standing? How can someone else tell me I'm not standing in this case?
I will start by saying none of this is "fair" to the LBS. None of it. We suffer - due to the crisis of someone else....although it is up to us how much we allow ourselves to suffer. Once the initial Bomb Drop and once we learn that this is not personal - the amount we allow our spouses crisis to hurt us is completely up to us. (Easier said that done...but this is the truth - as I see it).
Don't think for a moment that the MLCer is given free pass. He may be having all the sex he wants with OW - but there will be a price to pay - and that is probably why Withdrawal and Depression eventually hit - after the "high" of Replay is over. I would imagine the realization that you have betrayed those you love the most is a terrible, horrible feeling.
According to this site - "dating" is not Standing. This site is about stopping divorces and making opportunities for reconciliation. So, it makes sense that we would be encouraged to NOT get involved romantically with someone else. Because if we do - there is less chance of the marriage being reconciled.
That being said, I would venture to say that there are probably more than a few LBS' here who may have had physical intimacy with someone - since their spouses left - and are still Standing. Was there risk to their Stand by doing this? I would guess so. But, again, our Stands are risked everyday when we have doubts about whether or not we can continue to Stand or whether or not our spouse will be one to "wake up" and return home someday.
If you are looking for someone to give you a "green light" and say it's okay....don't. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. What matters is what YOU think. There is no one who has any right to tell you that you are not Standing for your marriage - regardless of what you choose to do. That is the thing with free will - you can do what you feel is best for you. If anyone judges you - then I say - shame on them. We should not be here to judge...just to support each other, by sharing our stories....and just lending an ear.
For me (and only me) - I have been with my H since I was 19. For me, I equate sex with love. I don't know if I would be able to separate these from each other - in my head. Do I miss it? Absolutely. Do I think it is fair or right that I no longer have any physical intimacy because my H left me? Well, there are so many other things that I feel are unfair about this entire situation - so I might as well throw this issue in the pile with the rest of them.
I also need to add the fact that, at this time, I am pretty vulnerable. I don't know that I would be able to make the best decisions about something like sex currently. I may feel differently in the future - I don't know.
Rediscover....it's really up to you. And, no one can decide whether or not you are Standing - except you.
JMHO.
Hugs.....to you, my friend.....Nothing about this MLC cr*p is easy.
Limitless
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Limitless, You write so beautifully. You said you're a writer? I would like to read one of your books. :) That plus you said what I was thinking. ;D
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It's funny that I ran across this thread today. I too miss sex and have for awhile. H and I had a great sex life and I miss it!!! Since from about a month from our separation I have been hit on quite a bit, and not just guys my age, but younger ones too. Right now there is a younger man in my training class that I am very tempted to jump his bones. The sexual tension between us is intense and we stay in the same hotel!!! I have even thought of just calling up H and asking him to come over for a quickie!! What is wrong with me!!
I do have major things that keep me from really going after the young men for sex and that is self appearance issues. I mean, no man has seen me naked for 21 years!! Well, other than the Dr. What would a man look at me and see? A 47 year-old woman, with winkles and jiggles!! :o
So, I guess there is not sex in the future for me anytime soon, unless I get brave and call H and he takes me up on it!
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In general, women report that having their husbands become emotionally intimate with another woman is more upsetting than a physical affair, where men report that having their wives sleeping with someone else is more upsetting than an emotional affair
I still think it's a bunch of hooey- emotional intmacy??? With and MLCER?? :o :o :o Its a train wreck!!
They can't be anymore intimate with ow skanks than they could with us; actually I think it may be even less!! They are mentally incapacitated!!
The crap that comes out of thier mouths in our direction goes to the skanky hoes too. The skanky hoes don't have the HISTORY with them so MLCERS can pretend to be whatever they want to be.
But we know different- we KNOW them. And even with as "checked out" mentally as they are THEY KNOW WE KNOW THEM!
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Stander? SO your H never saw you naked at all in 21 years? or did I just take that whole comment wrong??
On my own sitch...Honey and I have had sex many times since BD, Now his problem is he hasn't been sexually attracted to me
in over 2 years :o :o :o He says because he has had "issues" 3 out of the maybe 20 or so times we have had sex he couldn't "finish" If ya know what I mean..He says he never had this problem with OW and He just doesn't want sex from me anymore..SO I have thought about looking elsewhere for it..but don't want to stoop to HIS level.
It does drive me crazy sometimes!! LOL
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LOL!! No, I meant NO OTHER man besides H has seen me naked in all that time!! It really is frustrating. I was just thinking I am really crunching on a lot of ice, and if I remember right, when you eat a lot of ice it means you are sexually frustrated. Uh, YEAH! That's me!!
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Do I miss it? Absolutely. Do I think it is fair or right that I no longer have any physical intimacy because my H left me? Well, there are so many other things that I feel are unfair about this entire situation - so I might as well throw this issue in the pile with the rest of them.
I feel exactly the same way. My wife has moved out, so I'm paying all of my bills by myself (including a mortgage that takes half of my take-home every month); I have a dog that needs attention and to be loved on, so I can't just spend every day out of the house; and to top it all off, I haven't been with anyone since the last time with my wife, almost 2 1/2 years ago.
Do I miss it? Yes!
Do I miss it with her? HELL, YES!
Can I live without it? Yes. (Not to mention — if it comes down to it, there are ways of scratching that itch that don't require a partner.)
I also need to add the fact that, at this time, I am pretty vulnerable. I don't know that I would be able to make the best decisions about something like sex currently. I may feel differently in the future - I don't know.
A friend cautioned me to be careful about seeming to be available to or flirting with other women so I don't do something that I will end up regretting later; the fact that I am devoted to making my marriage work out might make me even more attractive to someone looking for a husband. (Crazy, huh? But just because an OW comes along after the marriage hits the rocks doesn't mean she's still not an OW.)
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In general, women report that having their husbands become emotionally intimate with another woman is more upsetting than a physical affair, where men report that having their wives sleeping with someone else is more upsetting than an emotional affair
I still think it's a bunch of hooey- emotional intmacy??? With and MLCER?? :o :o :o Its a train wreck!!
I wasn't specifically referring to MLCers; people end up having affairs for more reasons then just MLC...
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I know that SS..I've been reading about dozens of differnt kinds and the reasons behind them that aren't the reasons MLCERs have. MLCERS are a breed of thier own and emotionally IMHO they are not capable of having a meaningful emotional relationship.
So I can say for myself- it's not that I worry or think about the "emotional" attachement he thought he had- it's the opposite for me because it's been so long since we've had sex. Him cutting loose with her physically pisses me off!!! I didn't make any moves because I didn't want to put pressure on him or cause him any embarrassment and then he goes and does this!!!
Now his problem is he hasn't been sexually attracted to me
in over 2 years He says because he has had "issues" 3 out of the maybe 20 or so times we have had sex he couldn't "finish" If ya know what I mean..He says he never had this problem with OW and He just doesn't want sex from me anymore..SO I have thought about looking elsewhere for it..but don't want to stoop to HIS level.
Syn if he was cruel enough to tell you this and act the way he does he needs a bomb dropped on him big time.... >:( >:( >:( and sooner than the 12th if possible.
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Boy, I guess with a topic like this....we can expect....well, you know.
Still Standing...
Maybe this is what you meant...or maybe it isn't...but here goes.
I believe that women (and I am not speaking for ALL women - just most women) - are typically bonded with their husbands in many ways. Financially, emotionally, sexually, through the connection with children (if the couple has any), etc.. Women are typically more emotional than men. Many women here on this forum feel more betrayed by the intimate things her husband has shared with the OW. Not just his body.
I think men (and I am not speaking for ALL men - just most) - are typically emotionally bonded to their wives sexually. I am not say that men are not emotionally bonded to their wives in other ways, but I believe that the strongest emotion men have with their wives is during sex. (I am not a man...I could be wrong).
Thus, a man has a more difficult time forgiving his wife for being physically unfaithful. The physical betrayal is worse. I think men may be able to forgive an emotional affair (non physical) easier than a woman.
It's really funny - (strange - not ha ha) - a woman has more problems forgiving mental unfaithfulness and a man has more problems forgiving physical betrayal. When, in actuality - much, if not most, of the things a man will tell the OW is complete cr*p and lies. Yet, that hurts us more?!!??
And what's even more strange about the whole thing is - the OW/OM relationship is not about sex. It's not about love. It's not about companionship or finding a "soul mate." It's about avoiding your own shadow. Running, hiding and avoiding.
L
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ok Stander....whew! hehehe Thats what I thought ;)
In This...Yah tell me about it huh?? The thing is...when he says that I just tell him he is a liar, because he DID tell me he had issues with her...(he dont remember) and he thinks we havent had sex more then the 3 times in the last 16 months...hmmm a little MLC thinking there....
and now you know why I am sooooo tired of this crap! Ugh! >:( >:( >:(
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Yeah Syn- BUT THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SAYING and it doesn't make it right for them to say things like that!!!
And yes LL you've hit it right on the head..whats bazarre in MY case it's the exact OPPOSITE!!
He hasn't let go of an ea I had 16 years ago!!! I did and have done everything I could to make amends for it.
And I can forgive the ea on his part but struggle with the PA..... ::) Because I KNOW this is how men make the deepest emotional connecton. But considering he's got the emotional depth of a mud puddle at this point ( and when he was with exskank) why wear myself out trying to make sense of it all?? :o :o
Lordy what would have happened had I had a PA??
For some reason and maybe it's just me thinking out loud here I labored under the assumption that somehow he would magically turn into everything I needed him to be when he was with her. Well that wasn't the case and this has happened to me in a previous earlier marriage.
H#1 betrayed me too. He was sooooo jealous of me I never would have thought he was the one looking to cheat. I was soooo scared that he would turn into everything I needed after the divorce..he married the ow and I just about died. But 3 years later guess what?? He screwed around on her.
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H#1 betrayed me too. He was sooooo jealous of me I never would have thought he was the one looking to cheat. I was soooo scared that he would turn into everything I needed after the divorce..he married the ow and I just about died. But 3 years later guess what?? He screwed around on her.
Sweetie, that is the BIGGEST reason FOR him to cheat! He had to do it so you wouldn't do it first. People who are secure don't cheat, only people who are insecure and afraid cheat.
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Hi Lisa i think your right with what you said...........my sisters first partner (long-term with a child) was always jealous of my sister going out.........he was very possessive with her if she went anywhere he had to drop and pick her up..........yet he cheated on her.........looking back me and sister believe he was in MLC he did everything the script says..................my sister wasn’t married to him and later met her current partner.........who as started MLC and he too is possessive of my sister but not in the same way her first partner was...........he does let her have a life.....................my H was terrified when i started my nursing degree..........he thought i would run off with a doctor and i never once gave him any reason to think that............guess what he cheated on me with o/w ...........so yes it is their insecurities that cause this not ours xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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My first H had MAJOR abandonment issues which at 19 when I married him I really knew nothing about.
His Mom left his dad with three kids for OM. His father was at work, his two sisters were in grade school and when she left the house she left him there alone.
He was 3.. they found him under the kitchen table crying.
Needless to say I have forgiven him over the years.
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InThis and Lisa and wgh...OMG sooo sad. A little 3 year old abandoned alone in the house crying?
Can you believe this? I can't even after everything I've read. Way disconnected.
My H was overly jealous and then abandoned us before I abandoned him. (that's the logic and they're not worthy) Wayne's World Wayne's World..:o :o :o :o
I hate fear. It sucks. 'Hands and feet both bound by fear' That's what the article says. Backward forward limbo article.....Oy!
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I hate fear. It sucks. 'Hands and feet both bound by fear'
Fear is the biggest demon I fight- it's the cause of all of my anxiety. I try to remember the phrase "Fear can paralize you; or motivate you"- it's really all our own choice......
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I'm not sure if I agree that OW is getting information from H that is untrue. Before H left, both D13 and myself saw texts between OW and H. Lying was not part of the equation. Is he currently lying? Yes. I heard him with my own ears lie in front of OW, his children, and me. Does this mean he always lied? No. He didn't always lie to me. He didn't always lie to his kids.
If standing means that you act as IF you spouse is not coming back and you have no expectations of the spouse then acting IF my H is not coming back means that I am moving on with my life. The relationship I had with my H is gone. Any relationship with him will be a completely new relationship. It will not be a repairing of the old relationship. The is no way that patching the problems will results in a fix, it will just need to be repaired again. Do I want my H to disclose anything that has occurred since he walked out. NO! I don't care. He walked out, he left the marriage we had. I don't want to know what he has been doing or will do from the second he hugged me good-bye. He doesn't want to know what I'm doing either- doesn't matter if I'm sitting in my room crying everyday, or out enjoying my life. He doesn't want to know. You know why? He knows that no matter what that something is it's because of his choices. He put me in a situation I don't want to be in, but am expected to manage. My life is a different life because of his choices. My choices are based on his choices. Are they morally wrong? His more so than mine. My marriage is over. I love him, but he is gone. Anything that causes us to connect in the future is a whole new relationship.
Suggesting I should divorce my husband because I want sex is childish and judgmental. Suggesting i divorce comes from a place of anger. Maybe it's some misplaced anger toward your spouse for the hurt they've caused. BUT not your place to suggest divorce to anyone. One of the things about this site is that we can come here to discuss our hurt, pain, love, joy, confusion, insecurities, etc. with others and without judgement. It's highly offensive to me that anyone on this site would suggest I divorce my husband because you disagree with me.
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Re-
I understand totally what you are saying about living "as if". And what goes on now that they abondoned the relationship is none of thier business anymore I get that.
I know for me that particular night I easily could have gone to bed with the man I went to dinner with. I would have thought nothing of it the next day or ever again probably...unless I found myself in the position I'm in now...back with exh and the moral issue I would wrestle with would be ...would I tell him??
Now my case is different as I am divorced but in my mind after being married for 20 years then living together before then another 8 or so with a divorce that was final in 2 months ( actually should have been a month and a half) I felt like I was still married at the time of the dinner date.
A piece of paper doesn't make you feel divorced. Maybe a piece of paper doesn't make you feel married either if the man your married to isn't around.
You know your H better than anyone and if you don't think it would be a big deal to him that would be for you two to sort out. IMHO
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I would argue that what defines us as Standers is the desire to fully restore our marriages, and the willingness to confront the enormous difficulties which we face in order to do it. In some cases it may be difficult but doable, in other cases it may be impossible. We are holding out for the restoration of our relationship.
I do not think that sex outside of the relationship automatically means we are not standers. It is perhaps an unfortunate consequence of the loneliness which has been forced upon us by our spouses. Some people may find this loneliness unbearable, others may find that celibacy is something they can cope with. It is not for me to judge.
I can however see how sex outside of marriage could complicate a return to the marriage. There is the possibility of harming the other person who is not a stander and who may become attached. In a sense they are being used as the stander has no intention to permanently form a bond with this person- what they really want is there spouse back. There is the possibility that the MLCer may someday be upset if it is disclosed, and the alternative is to not disclose which also brings up issues of honesty. Men particularly are often horribly disillusioned by their wives having sex outside the marriage. No matter that the MLCer is being a hypocrite by engaging in their actions without taking into account the efffect on the LBS, they havent been thinking about the LBS needs anyway.There is also the possibility of falling into a rebound relationship which one is not emotionally ready for. So yes it could complicate your stand.
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BUT not your place to suggest divorce to anyone. One of the things about this site is that we can come here to discuss our hurt, pain, love, joy, confusion, insecurities, etc. with others and without judgement. It's highly offensive to me that anyone on this site would suggest I divorce my husband because you disagree with me.
No, this site is intended to provide support for people who are choosing to Stand for their marriage. Most of that time that does mean listening with patience, love, and support to people who are venting their frustrations, but on occasion that may mean taking a harsh line or giving a reality check to people who may unintentionally sabotage their Stand and their attempts to save their marriage.
You don't have to take anyone's advice on here. But this site was started by a woman who Stood for her marriage through thick and thin, and saw it renewed; other posters are also seeing a renewed commitment from their once-MLCing spouses. The advice that we try to give is consistent with the principles of the people who came before us, and I can't think of any one of them who were dating or sleeping with other people while they Stood.
Most of the people I've seen who start dating other people outside of the marriage — for whatever reason — end up getting divorced: either they "trade up", their spouses see them as giving up, or one partner or other (or one of the OPs) starts feeling jealous or possessive.
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StillStanding, I was waiting for it! Great response. Sums it up perfectly. I love this forum. People are so intelligent in their discussions and so kind and caring in their hearts. :)
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Still Standing and Mama Bear
You are both completely out of line if you think that suggesting divorce to anyone in this site acceptable. It is not your place to suggest ANYONE divorce.
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Rediscover, I'm not suggesting that anyone divorce.
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No? please go back and read SS earlier comments so that you are fully aware of what you are agreeing with.
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Rediscover, I did. StillStanding said 'if you want to see other people maybe you should consider a D." It was meant I think to show how if you were in a sexual R with someone other than your spouse you'd be giving up the 'moral high ground'
How would the LBS be any better than the confused and fog filled MLCer? It's true what they say 'every sitch is different' but if someone wants to start trying to find a FWB or dating then how can they actually be standing for their M? It's an oxymoron I feel. I don't want to disrespect anyone here. I LIKE ALL opinions and advice. It just never entered my mind that an option for my Standing would be to try and find casual sex. That's all. No disrespect intended.
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Any time that I post anywhere on this site and someone suggests divorce as an option I will no longer be part of the discussion. You want to talk about divorce, talk about it some other place.
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First of all, I am going to agree that if you are LBSer and engaged with someone else in another relationship, you are not standing because you have made a commitment with another person. I mean, would it be fair to tell someone, "I will be with you until my wife comes out of the tunnel, and then you will be history."
Of course, I am old fashioned and I will not be with anyone until my marriage is officially over.
I hate divorce with all my heart, but I do support divorce on physical or sexual abuse.. I stand for my marriage and I have friends on this site. If my wife leaves me and enters into another marriage, I will end my stand. That is my point of no return. Everyone has their beliefs and my true spirit is that we provide support to those that are dealing with MLC and support them with standing as well as moving on if that is their choice.
Also, it has been so long without sex, I don't even know what I am talking about.
Gosh, I miss sex.... BooHoo... I am glad this thread is locked.
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I don't think it is possible to have this type of discussion and not have a bit of controversy.
Honestly, this is a subject that I have struggled with, on an intellectual basis.
We are told to "live as if they aren't coming back." Well, if I truly lived as if my H wasn't coming back (and if I am honest - that is a distinct possibility) - eventually I would be open to a new relationship. Part of accepting that the old relationship is dead and gone - would be to be open to a new relationship. With my H or possibly someone else.
One of the things it seems many people on the forum struggle with (I struggle with this) is the burning question - Is my spouse truly in MLC or is he/she merely a WAS? Depression or no depression, OW or no OW - sometimes (I won't venture to say many times....) but sometimes a person just walks away from a marriage and never looks back. Maybe they live to regret it....but cannot bring themselves to endure the risk and strength that it may take to regain their spouses.
I have quite a bit of respect for those who can "Stand" for years and years and years. I just don't know that I would be able to do this. I am 51 - in a few months I will reach 52. I don't wish to spend my remaining days alone. I've read the articles on this site and many others. Most books and articles clearly say that the majority of the MLCers eventually come out of it. But, let's face it guys and gals- this takes years and years. For my 30 year marriage - I choose to Stand - in hopes that we may have an opportunity to reconcile someday. But, I do not have a "knowing." There are no guarantees. If I am to believe my H at this point - I am the Devil's spawn in his eyes.
I know - Replay lasts around 2 years on average....from the threads on this site - it appears to be longer. After that, I should (could) see Depression and Withdrawal...or I may not see anything. I'm not sure how I will feel a year from now....2 years from now. I certainly understand Rediscover.....I don't think I need to tell anyone who is ahead of me in the timetable - this a long time to be alone.
And, Mama, with all due respect - should I choose to become involved with someone else, I guess I wonder about this "moral high ground" that I may be giving up. One of the issues in my marriage was that my H was usually messing up (drugs, alcohol, overspending) and I did the cleaning up after him. It lead to a very unhealthy relationship. Me, acting like a Martyr and he, always feeling like he had to "make" something up to me. I believe that, one of the reasons he may never be able to live with me again would be feeling like I had something over him - since he left....he caused this.....he is, once again, at fault. For me, I don't see ANY chance of a reconciliation for us - if I am to hold some "moral high ground" over him. Again, I am speaking of my situation. No one Else's.
Does that mean I am ready to have another relationship? No. It doesn't. But, something my counselor told me - a while back - that I have had to accept. My H and I are no longer in a relationship. We are not legally divorced - but we live as if we already are. I have only eaten one meal with him since the day he left - and that was the night he asked me to have dinner with him so he could ask for a divorce. If I remember correctly, I never ate a bite. My counselor told me that it wasn't any of my business what my H does at this point - as we have no commitment to each other. Which, in turn, means that my actions are also none of his business. It hurts to think that....but it's true. That relationship is dead and gone. With the exception of the responsibilities of our kids and our bills - he owes me nothing. Yes. He said wedding vows to me (twice - as a matter of fact).....but he broke them. They are broken.
That being said....
Do I think it would be a good idea for me to be sexually involved with someone else at this point? No. I don't. And it wouldn't have anything to do with betraying my spouse or breaking my wedding vows. He broke the vows a long time ago. They no longer exist, in that sense. I say no - because I know ME. I know that I would become attached. Should the feelings be mutual - it would end my Stand - as I would move on. At this point...I am not ready to do this. I don't know how I will feel in the future.
Still Standing - you've mentioned the three reconciled marriages from the forum. (I know that there are a few more in the reconnection stage - but, let's talk about the three). RCR's H was a clinging boomerang. They spent time together. I imagine that they had a "relationship" of some physical sort over the 3.5 years that he came and went. HB's husband never left. I know that HB has stated that he took a long time to finally get through his crisis - but they did not live apart for a significant amount of time. Stayed and her H reconnected while he was still in Replay. She has stated that the next 1.5 years were really, really tough. But, they got through and their relationship is better than it had ever been (Stayed - if I have misquoted you - please correct me).
I am not in any way suggesting that what any of the situations mentioned above were "easy." These ladies went through all the stages and pain that the rest of us have either gone through and/or are still going through. But, what of the Vanishes and the On-Offers - or just the Non-clinging boomerangs? In these cases, we are considering a very long time of Standing with ZERO positive signs. I think we would be fooling ourselves to suggest that, in order to have some chance of reconciliation, all of these LBS are to become monks.
I am not advocating anything here. I would not say to anyone - Go Ahead. No harm, no foul. It's fine....do it. I would not say to anyone - if you are a Stander - then act like a Nun. I have read the articles. I know what is recommended regarding dating. I understand the moral, ethical, logical and religious reason(s) for this recommendation. I am not bound by religious, moral, or ethical beliefs. My choice is based upon what is best for ME and my kids. Introducing another man into my life, at this point, would NOT be a healthy decision for ME. I cannot and will not make that decision for anyone else. I believe that this is a personal decision.....a personal choice.....
I've spent so many years of my life judging others. (In spite of my somewhat immoral stance here, I was raised in a very strict religious family and have lived a moral life). I used to feel a "moral high ground" over people who chose to live together before marriage, have children out of wedlock, have multiple partners, etc. This is one of the things about myself that I have decided to change....as it was not a very virtuous trait. It was unkind and cruel......I made decisions about others - based upon how I believed that they should live their lives.
This site is for Standers....but nonstanders post here, as well. This site is against divorce....yet some of the most consistent posters are already or will soon be divorced. I guess I have adjusted my view of Standing.....it's not about the MLCer nor the marriage. It is about the LBS. Standing for ourselves. Standing so that we can heal. Standing so that we respond and not react. Standing.....so that we can know the joy of true forgiveness...as forgiveness is really for ourselves. If after all of that....my marriage is reconciled...then so much the better. But, I must be prepared for a alternate result.
If my comments are against the principles of this site....so be it.
I will get off my soap box now....
L
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rediscover,
I don't know you or your situation, other than what has been discussed on this thread. If you have a story of your own on this site, I have not read it. With that in mind, I am going to err on the side of caution and give the most conservative advice until I feel I understand that situation better. In the context of this discussion, it would be to advise people not to date or sleep with someone else while Standing.
It may very well be, in your specific case, that you are emotionally healthy and self-assured enough to not let another relationship interfere with your Stand. And, your husband may be even-handed enough to accept that you got a chance to explore your options just as he did. But in my opinion, that is a very risky path to take and I don't understand why someone who wants to be reconciled with their spouse would play with fire like that.
There is already a storm looming in your future if and when he comes out of the MLC fog and wants to drop OW like a bad habit; as misguided and screwed up as an OW might be, she may feel entitled to fight for her man. Why potentially introduce more headaches by bringing someone else into this mess? (And frankly, what kind of man would agree to be a "friend with benefits" to someone who is still married and wants to remain so?)
And yes, I will advise people to get a divorce if I feel the situation warrants it. I think any kind of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse by a spouse (MLCing or not) should be responded to by getting out of the situation as quickly as possible. It goes double when we're talking about abuse directed at children, whether it's by an errant spouse or an OP. If protecting yourself or your children physically, mentally, or financially means getting a divorce then I have no problem with saying so.
But that's not even what I recommended in your case. All I said was, if you're going to start a new relationship — even if you intend it to be temporary or casual or whatever — then you should consider bringing your current one to an end. I made a suggestion that I thought would make your life easier if you choose to not remain sexually monogamous; I didn't tell you that you had to get a divorce, or even that you should get a divorce. I'm not sure why that is so offensive to you.
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Gosh, I miss sex.... BooHoo... I am glad this thread is locked.
Ooops...Did I unlock it?
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It didn't appear locked when I wrote my post, but it took me a while to compose my thoughts. And there were several replies as I was writing.
I know we moderators can post to locked threads, but I didn't think that unlocked them.
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I also wrote a book.....so I never noticed this thread as locked.
I'm not sure who locked it....of if it should be locked......
L
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It's always the RIGHT thing to do to end a relationship properly before jumping into another type of relationship with someone else...besides the Bible speaks clearly about sex outside of marriage, AND sex with another WHILE you're married; and besides it being clear SIN and ADULTERY; it's also not pleasing to the Lord.
This is a moral issue that comes up ever so often...I started not to come in here because I figured the subject was a continuation of some of the other discussions on sex I've had with other posters not long ago.
But after the reading this through, I couldn't just let this pass without putting in my own two cents.
NONE of what I read, surprises me, I've read these discussions before; and honestly, I don't encourage people to go against their moral code; you should have an idea of the damage one can do to themselves; not to mention the diseases that can be caught that you can't get rid of, and sex nowadays CAN kill you; and this is so NOT worth the hassle.
I've been where you are; believe me, I have; and I know it's hard to do without affection, love, sex, and intimacy.
NOT my place to judge you for what you do/don't do; you're ALL adults, therefore accountable for all you do or don't do.
If you're going to do this, end your marriage NOW; then you'll be "free" to do whatever you choose; hopefully without guilt, or shame for ending your stand.
Going outside the marriage to simply have sex, can complicate things in a way you never expected, and you could find yourself in a situation where whoever you messed with might develop feelings for you, regardless of what you did to prevent this.
It's better to set these feelings aside for another time; in my humble opinion. This is what I did...simply set it aside, and focused on more important things such as continuing my journey to get to know me better.
I do NOT advise dating or otherwise dallying with another during the crisis, if you are standing for your marriage; it can and will backfire; because the MLC'er WILL find out about and MOST won't accept it; and you can be sure that some likely will decide to walk away; REGARDLESS of what THEY do or have done.
Nothing done in darkness ever stays there; it always comes to light, given time.
I have admitted many times that I was lonely during his time of crisis; but I refused to dishonor myself with another......I always liked sleeping with a clear conscience at night. Besides that, two wrongs don't make a right.
And unless you're made of hardened steel; GUILT and SHAME is something you would have to live with, once you cross a line like that; there is NO going back to what once was.
I'm glad that I held myself to a higher standard during that time; it was never worth having a temporary pleasure that I knew full well would cause a lifetime of pain; not only for myself, but also for my husband that I stood for all that time.
I could never have lived with myself; had I fallen to that kind of temptation.
There's something to be said for remaining pure, untouched in that aspect, and having kept my marriage vows in spite of the fact that HE broke his.
Maybe other people can do it, and not feel guilty; but me, I couldn't have done it; and could NEVER do it. I have too much respect for ME to go that far, and stoop that low.
I will hop off my soapbox now, and say no more. :)
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In general, women report that having their husbands become emotionally intimate with another woman is more upsetting than a physical affair, where men report that having their wives sleeping with someone else is more upsetting than an emotional affair
I still think it's a bunch of hooey- emotional intmacy??? With and MLCER?? :o :o :o Its a train wreck!!
They can't be anymore intimate with ow skanks than they could with us; actually I think it may be even less!! They are mentally incapacitated!!
The crap that comes out of thier mouths in our direction goes to the skanky hoes too. The skanky hoes don't have the HISTORY with them so MLCERS can pretend to be whatever they want to be.
But we know different- we KNOW them. And even with as "checked out" mentally as they are THEY KNOW WE KNOW THEM!
InThis - I second what you are saying here. I feel like vomiting at the thought of either a physical or emotional betrayal by my H. Both do my head and my heart in.
But - at BD my H announced ' I guess I am afraid of intimacy', and since has on many occasions said 'I am so sorry, I was not capable of having a relationship with you when I left, and I still am not capable of having a relationship with anyone'.
So - we would have to ask what it is that our spouses think that they are having with these other people?
I wrote about it somewhere on the forum, and HB responded 'No MLCer is capable of having a relationship with anyone, NOT even themselves ....... they are really lost during this time' and 'OM/OW are often used to work through or relive a time in the MLCers life gone wrong'.
Doesn't sound like emotional intimacy to me. Sounds like needy, selfish, dysfunction.
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It is perhaps an unfortunate consequence of the loneliness which has been forced upon us by our spouses. Some people may find this loneliness unbearable, others may find that celibacy is something they can cope with. It is not for me to judge.
I have to agree, it is impossible to fully understand another person's situation. In my case, lonliness did factor - not just because I had lost my H, but his abandonment forced me to reassess a lot of things about my life and I ended up leaving the place that I lived for the previous 3 years for a new job. So H abandoned me and moved right in with OW. Started having my kids to his place (no legal recourse for me to stop this where I was living). 6 mths later I moved away to get work and start a new life. Left my entire support network behind - all my friends ( couldn't move to my country of origin because the children would be too far from H for regular visitation, so also no family near me). It has taken some time to make friends here and to get a stable job. In the meantime, I had to get used to my H taking my young children for weeks at a time over the summer and I found that very very hard, particularly with my 2 year old. And an old friend came over to see me while my kids were gone and offered me some friendship, kindness, he cooked for me, gave me massages and listened. And yes, he also slept with me and told me I was amazing. It was good for the ego, I admit. He said some things that helped my stand too. He told me that when we were at school he remembered my laugh because it was always infectious - he said, "don't ever lose that ability to laugh, it is a gift". So, should i have divorced my H before I let this happen? Maybe. But I didn't and I will let God be the judge of whether I should have done differently. Did it end my stand? It interrupted it, yes, but it reinforced it. It reminded me that there are people that like me, and in my lonely, at that point friendless, environment with my little kids away with H AND OW playing happy families while I was job hunting in a new city miles from friends and family, an old school friend broke the lonliness and reminded me that I was remembered and liked and thought of by people who did not even know or care about my H.
Sex was part of that situation, but seeing my friend was more than that - and I was able to offer him something too, I gave him some support and encouragement for an endeavour he was working on that he felt no one believed in anymore. So we helped each other. The sex was good, but not the only thing. Did it shut the door to a return on the part of my H? Not completely for me. Anyway, there are cases of WAS's returning even though the LBS is in a new R, or even remarried. If our "moving on" was such a betrayal to them, then these cases would not occur. When a returning MLCer tries to make out that we were wrong to move on (afterall how many of us heard, around BD "I hope you meet someone new really soon" - what did they think, that we would move on to purely platonic new R's?), it is nothing more than a deflection of their own culpability for destroying families and marriages in the first place.
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HB, I hear what you are saying, but I really don't feel guilt or shame about the situation with my old friend, but I think that this was a very unusual situation where we both just knew that there was nothing long-term involved other than mutual friendship and respect (and finding each other attractive too).
However, I do feel remorse for the dating situation and I do know that it was wrong of me to start dating when I was ill-prepared to continue it. Not that this is a defense, but at that time I had decided to move my divorce forward, end my stand and leave H behind for good. Now, I recognise that this was a cycle and as I came out of it, I started to realise that I was in too deep and had made a serious error of judgement. So I do agree that the dating relationship was a bad move and I regret it and whether or not H and I can ever be reunited, I was just not ready for a relationship with anyone. I have asked for God's forgiveness for this, and I have been as kind and honest to the man in question as I can be. As I said before, sex is probably not a good idea as it does complicate your life because it involves another person and their feelings and emotions. ANd one thing an LBS does not need is more complications in life.
For what it is worth, I feel that my marriage is nothing but a legality now, but part of me still felt that it was wrong to be with someone when I was not yet divorced - but it was the emotional intimacy that I felt really bad about, not the sex, strangely. If I do decide to move on, I will want my marriage to be legally over too, and seeing as H has harped on about it continuously for a year now, I guess that is where we are headed. I wonder if the paper will change how I feel about starting a new R, or if I will still feel guilt?
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This aspect of my life is most anguishing and frustrating. Maybe not 'the' most, but it is definitely one that throws in my face the unfairness of this whole situation.
I have been thinking about forgiveness and I feel that this is something that I have real problems in forgiving. I don't find it easy to just put this part of my life on a shelf as HB suggests doing: It's better to set these feelings aside for another time; in my humble opinion. This is what I did...simply set it aside, and focused on more important things such as continuing my journey to get to know me better.
It is a daily battle.
I believe that standing and having a relationship with another person, which is intimate (emotionally or physically) is incompatible. That is my opinion.
It is just unbelievably hard at times, especially when you feel you have a 'vocation' for marriage as Xyzcf said to me the other day.
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It is entertaining to read the ongoing discussion from the Women's point of view because it illustrates the fundamental difference in how men and women view sex and intimacy. For a man (or most men anyways) they can have sex (physical) with any women they find attractive, however men cannot continue to have sex with that women unless they form an intimate (emotional) connection, due to the release of oxytocin(?) which is the bonding chemical. it is also why men find porn so engaging - it's physical but not emotional. It also why men cannot view the same erotic image repeatedly and be stimulated by it.
Women on the other hand want to be intimate (emotionally connected) before the physical (OK we'll leave drunken hookups out of the conversation). Which explains why most women are devastated that their partners could be emotionally connected to someone where as men feel the betrayal physically.
My X started with removal of the physical from our marriage as an instrument to disconnect, as she moved deeper into the tunnel and sought emotional connection with another (others) there was a further palatable loss of energy in our marriage.
The last time we had sex is going on two years, I cannot tell the last time we were intimate with each other.
My X is a clinger and has surprisingly started using the tools of reconciliation - Honesty, Transparency, and the ability to make and keep commitments. 2 years seems to be the replay timeline at least for women
Peace on your journeys
Mac
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This aspect of my life is most anguishing and frustrating. Maybe not 'the' most, but it is definitely one that throws in my face the unfairness of this whole situation.
I have been thinking about forgiveness and I feel that this is something that I have real problems in forgiving. I don't find it easy to just put this part of my life on a shelf as HB suggests doing: It's better to set these feelings aside for another time; in my humble opinion. This is what I did...simply set it aside, and focused on more important things such as continuing my journey to get to know me better.
It is a daily battle.
I believe that standing and having a relationship with another person, which is intimate (emotionally or physically) is incompatible. That is my opinion.
It is just unbelievably hard at times, especially when you feel you have a 'vocation' for marriage as Xyzcf said to me the other day.
I never said it was "easy" I just DID IT; knowing that if I fell, I would have been NO better than my MLC husband who had ALREADY fell to temptation of this kind and type.
HB, I hear what you are saying, but I really don't feel guilt or shame about the situation with my old friend, but I think that this was a very unusual situation where we both just knew that there was nothing long-term involved other than mutual friendship and respect (and finding each other attractive too).
S&D, this is called JUSTIFICATION; and there is NO justification for shattering your own marriage vows.
An MLC spouse does enough of that for themselves, the LBS CANNOT be a proper stanchion if they are also weak.
My moral code does NOT allow this to pass; and there is NO excuse for falling down IF you are STANDING for your marriage. I won't apologize for what I know to be TRUTH.
I speak out strongly against this aspect each time I see a person who brings me the problem of the lack of sex, intimacy, togetherness, affection; as they are trying their best to stand for their marriage; but find it so hard to do because temptation dogs their heels each and every day.
Standing is NOT for the faint of heart; and self respect is something, once sacrificed, that's very hard to regain for oneself.
I've made many mistakes in my life, but committing adultery was NOT one of those; neither was failing to stand for what I deeply believe in.
I love each and every one of you; but I completely DISAGREE based on the Word of God, and my own moral code that going outside the marriage is justified because the MLC spouse has made this drastic mistake; has 'checked out' of the marriage, and because of the uncertainty of the situation.
I have to confess, I really don't and will never understand...and to even think of doing it, and then HIDING it from your MLC spouse, as I read the suggesting of this; makes you NO better than your MLC spouse who is already dealing with the ongoing consequences of being deceitful, and adulterous.
I know each one of you have to account for yourselves and your actions before God in the day of judgment.
And it saddens me to the core that some of you have either fallen or are even considering it.
it is impossible to fully understand another person's situation.
My HUSBAND said this one time during his first bout of crisis when we were talking about his friend who was at the time hopping between his wife and the OW....he said that I didn't understand, considering that I didn't know what was going on, on either side. While he was right about that, I STILL lit him up in heartbeat, told him it didn't matter WHAT was going on; there is NO excuse, nor justification for committing adultery.
SIN is SIN, and it counts the same; there's no "greater" sin, nor "smaller" sin; but it seems to me the worst part is sinning against oneself; and it would be hard to find a way to live with the guilt and shame, regardless of the kind of front one puts on for the world.
The wages of SIN is DEATH; and you can't afford for MORE death to occur in that aspect.
Regardless of WHAT is going on; there is no excuse for dishonoring oneself, and defiling oneself, when you took marriage vows that clearly said that you would keep yourself ONLY unto the one you married until death did you part.
And that is ANOTHER thing I read on this board sometime back; someone at one point was literally TWISTING the meaning of death; in the vows it means PHYSICAL death NOT emotional or relational...but they were trying to justify, again, the temptation to go outside of the marriage.
You, as a LBS spouse face the SAME temptations the MLC spouse does; and it falls to the LBS to set a higher standard, if only for yourself before the Lord who does hold us to a higher standard in this aspect.
He will forgive you for the asking if you fall; but you will STILL reap what you sow; you do pay consequences for your actions, whether now or down the road; for everything you do good or bad it comes home to you.
Again, if your marriage vows don't mean anything to you; END THE MARRIAGE NOW; but don't forget your journey to wholeness and healing which must still be taken.
Food for thought
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I understand what you mean by a "vocation" for marriage. While I am adapting to being alone right now, I am still completely unable to identify with my H's newfound passion for being "single". I remember my days of being single quite well, and I find little to nothing wonderful about them. I found the fragility and instability of relationships disconcerting, sex before love unfulfilling, the tension of feeling like you were auditioning with the other person, and the realization that many single men were afraid of attachment. Now it would be even worse as I would have to wonder what a new partner would think of the inevitable aging of my body. After all I have had children and I am over 50, so nothing is as good it was. I was thrilled beyond words when I married, having someone to discuss all life's decisions with, having someone to trust. The loss of intellectual and sexual intimacy, stability, and security is something which I am still mourning, and I feel I have no talent for being single and never will. What in the world that my H finds so attractive about "singleness" is a mystery to me.
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Mac49,
Thank you for that enlightening explanation of the differences between men and women. I was struggling to say the same thing....but it didn't quite come out that way. ;)
I guess I am like most women....I need the emotional connection and was devastated that my H found that connection emotionally with someone else. I am just so typical.....
If we can keep our emotions out of this (no pun intended) - this is actually a good discussion topic - as this is life. LBS will, at some time, come up against this issue during their Stand.
We learn through reading these threads and sharing our stories. How not to react. What worked in one situation. What did not work. (Does anything really work? ???)
To deny that this issue exists is to stick our heads in the sand. At least for me, I had enough of that prior to BD.
Hugs to all......thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
L
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Yes, it's unfair that our MLCing spouses seem to get to play and have sex without repercussions. But they really don't; there is always a price to pay down the road.
And yes, sticking to one's principles often means giving up things that we'd rather not. But that's the point of principles; if doing the right thing was easier than doing the wrong thing, why would people do the wrong thing?
It will always be easier to destroy than create.
It will always be easier to be lazy than industrious.
It will always be easier to give in to lust than resist temptation.
I miss sex. But I miss sex with the woman I married most of all. And if I get a chance at regaining the latter, I'll gladly give up the former. I think of it as an investment.
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As I see it:
Marriage vows - Our MLC'ers don't just break but destroy them and we are forced daily to deal with that reality.....so do we break them further by considering a relationship of whatever variant with someone else? In addition we're all told here to let the WAS file for divorce, to not let them off the hook of their decision and take that task, the obligations and stresses that go with it on ourselves.
Intimacy - there is none with our MLC'er. They are gone to us, our " marriage is over" and we're told that constantly.
Our lives - we are told to live our lives "as if" they are not ever coming back.
Our needs - are important, and yes we can meet many ourselves and in alternative ways, but for how long do we deny ourselves fulfillment of those needs? Especially considering the fact there may never be any hope of reconciliation with our spouses?
Our beliefs - are a guide for us, and none of us know what God has in store, and his will is thwarted by our and our spouse's free will.
In summation, we're in between a lot of forces here and conflicting ideas. It's no wonder this is contentious and confusing.
I guess it all boils down to what dishonors oneself.
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I know for me, IF I was to go down that road again...I would have to deal with the guilt and shame, just like HB says. I have been there...two wrongs dont make a right and it doesnt set a good example for the MLCer...what I mean is if we are angry that they cheated they can easily throw that back in our faces too...later on when they realise how messed up they were.
As hard has it is sometimes...I dont actually miss the sexual part, I do however MISS the closeness and I wouldnt get that with a one nighter anyway. I can invite B.O.B. into my bed if thats the case! :P lol
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HB,
Thank you for reminding me and encouraging me You, as a LBS spouse face the SAME temptations the MLC spouse does; and it falls to the LBS to set a higher standard, if only for yourself before the Lord who does hold us to a higher standard in this aspect.
It is true, if we meant our vows seriously and God was our witness as it says in Malachi, we have no business going down the same road.
I will set this issue aside and as SS says, consider it an investment. :)
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Rediscover--I find it interesting that you reacted so strongly to thinking you were being told to divorce. Why was that so awful for you? And if it is, how can you so easily think about having a sexual relationship outside of your marriage, but so wanting your marriage and family and not being sure if he could handle it? I am not judging, I just find your strong reaction puzzling--generally people who are open about sex are rather blase about the legalities of marriage.
We do define things differently, but I see in you a contradiction. As far as I was concerned, I did not enter into any kind of dating relationship until my marriage was over--and that was at BD. He told me he intended to divorce me and that I had 1-2 years of legal separation before the D would be final, so that I could get health insurance. If he could have, he would have divorced me that day, but he gave me the time I needed to get stable.
In my heart and mind, my marriage ended on BD, the paper was just a formality, but it seems for you divorce holds a greater meaning than sex... Just wondering, Lisa
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HB and others, I very much admire you for your faith and your ability to stick to your principles. The thing is that we are told that our marriages are dead, that we can not resurrect them, but must start them new. My confusion lies here - what if the legal document that keeps our marriage had been severed before I slept with someone else, but H still came back? Would I owe him honesty about my dates and relationships that had occurred since we formally divorced? Our marriage was a commitment (actually our relationship was a commitment) and I did not stray in the 16 years we were together including the 5 years together before we were formally married. I honoured my husband, I was honest with him and I endeavoured to conduct myself with consideration for his wants and needs throughout. I had my flaws, they were plenitiful, but I firmly believe that I would never have "cheated and lied and betrayed" my husband in the context of a monagamous relationship (which is what I wanted). I do not think that because he did this to me, it would therefore be ok for me to do so in the context of a functioning and committed marriage. Had he come back and wanted to work things out, I would not have considered "paying him back" or "making things even" - that is not what this was about for me. In the context of 2 wrongs don't make a right, I agree - I was not trying to equal his wrong, I simply considered my old marriage dead and was in a lot of turmoil about standing. I made a choice that others would not make in that context, I own that choice and the consequences of it.
I consider my moral marriage to have ended with his adultery and his leaving and his statement that our marriage was over forever. I am not comparing what I did to what he did because I actually don't think they have anything to do with each other, other than I would never have slept with anyone else were my H still choosing to be a meaningful part of my life.
For now, the legal and fiscal side still remains although we are "seperated". I am trying to explain the way I see things - maybe it is purely justification, or an excuse, or something. I am a believer in God and a higher power, but I do not have the same faith that some of you have in the strict moral adherence to one religious take on God, as in viewing the Christian Bible as my authority on God. I consider myself to be more pantheistic in my view of God and the world, I understand the deep connectedness of everything and I know that my actions have consequences and that when I do the wrong thing, I feel regret and a wish to redress if I can. I know that dating was wrong and I have asked God for forgiveness. Maybe seeing my old friend for a while was also wrong, but I just do not feel that I was harmed or that anyone else was harmed by that particular episode in my life. If H ever does return maybe I will need to tell him, maybe I won't - I don't think that I will want to know all the details of what he and OW did for the years they were together, and so if my 1 week bothers him, I will have to deal with that. I have already told him about the guy that I dated and so that will come as no surprise.
Perhaps I was weak, perhaps I was foolish. I am fallible, but I do tend to be honest (otherwise this would be the last place I would have spoken out about these things, because I know that many here will judge me and do so harshly).
I am in no way suggesting that people ought to follow my path. I make many mistakes and I post them here, with as much honesty as I can to give them more information about decisions they face in this messy, messy journey we are on. I am imperfect, I know that, but I am human and have all the frailties that that entails.
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Oh and one last thing (and it may not be relevant, but I think I will mention it anyway) MY H is not and has never been particularly religious. So, if he ever comes back it will be because he realises he still loves me, not because he feels that he has done something wrong in a religious sense - his sense of ethical guilt will stem from the fact that he was basically a good man who did not ever wish to harm anyone else.
This simply means that it is very unlikely, in my situation, that I will be accused of "adultery" by my H. I do not use that term with him because it means little to him. Trust, honesty and integrity, broken promises and betrayal are words he understands, but hitting him over the head with a Bible or Koran or any other religious text condemning his behaviour will have very little weight.
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S & D,
I think I have given my stance on the issue - so I won't repeat it.
I just wanted to say that I admire your bravery and honesty - to share what you have shared - knowing that some would judge you harshly.
I won't get into a debate over the level of importance of one type of slip versus another....but we all have "slips" to some degree or another. And, by sharing this information with each other - maybe some of us will avoid a "slip" that we may make in the future.
I believed that another relationship or "dating" would not end the pain that I have experienced from the abandonment of my H. The fact that you shared your story - confirmed it to me. Our friends and family from the "real world" encourage us to move on....as they see it as an end to our suffering. They don't truly understand.....not like an LBS does. So, once in a while - we question. Are our family and friends correct? Are we holding on to something that just isn't there any longer? Doubt is normal, I guess.
I think we all need to feel "safe" here - to say what we think or we are thinking of. Just as we need to be open to hearing and listening to the advice we receive.
And, as with anything, take what you want and leave the rest.
Take care, S & D
L
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I guess I am like most women....I need the emotional connection and was devastated that my H found that connection emotionally with someone else. I am just so typical.....
I'll say this again- the emotional connection is a short circut and probably has been for most of the LBS and MLCERs relationship also......now with an OW or OM it's less than that it's TOTALLY disconnected. They are emotional Zombies.
I consider my moral marriage to have ended with his adultery and his leaving and his statement that our marriage was over forever
I like this statement. Moral marriage and legal marriage I believe are two different things.And I don't feel like it's splitting hairs.
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I believed that another relationship or "dating" would not end the pain that I have experienced from the abandonment of my H. The fact that you shared your story - confirmed it to me. Our friends and family from the "real world" encourage us to move on....as they see it as an end to our suffering. They don't truly understand.....not like an LBS does. So, once in a while - we question. Are our family and friends correct? Are we holding on to something that just isn't there any longer?
L - I agree with both of these things. The dating did not end the pain at all, I have made that very clear in other posts I made relating to this topic on other threads. It distracted me for a while, but it did not stop the grief process and if I had let it continue it would probably have hindered and prolonged it for me, I hope knowing that helps some people.
In RL EVERYONE, I mean EVERYONE, thinks that I should get back "out there", that there is no moral choice here, that my marriage is already over and that I am delusional if I act any other way. That is not an excuse it is just that the reality of my normal life does not mesh with the idea of standing at ALL. Shortly after BD a good friend, who meant well, actually told me I should get out enjoy myself and sleep with as many men as possible! Needless to say, I disregarded that advice, but it just means that my "real" life existance is permanently telling me to move on. My own parents, sister, hell even my IL's think I need to forget him and start dating. Some people on the forum live in a very different cultural context to me, I live in a cosmopolitan city in what is a largely secular continent (Europe) where there are very different perspectives on many things including morality.
In this...
"I consider my moral marriage to have ended with his adultery and his leaving and his statement that our marriage was over forever". In much of Europe a wedding has 2 seperate ceremonies on 2 seperate days. The civil ceremony is performed in a town hall a day or two before the religious wedding. You are first married legally, then married "morally" in the religious context that you choose. So really you are right, I am not splitting hairs - the civil ceremony does not entail vows, only the church wedding does.
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I guess I am like most women....I need the emotional connection and was devastated that my H found that connection emotionally with someone else. I am just so typical.....
I'll say this again- the emotional connection is a short circut and probably has been for most of the LBS and MLCERs relationship also......now with an OW or OM it's less than that it's TOTALLY disconnected. They are emotional Zombies.
In this,
Thank you for that comment. I know that you are right. My H is incapable of having a true, intimate relationship with anyone. I know that......I just keep forgetting it - when I take this cr*p personally.
Hugs,
L
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Shortly after BD a good friend, who meant well, actually told me I should get out enjoy myself and sleep with as many men as possible!
S&D
I already went through this when my first marriage ended the same way this one did; I was 23. I slept with anything in pants for two months. I was in so much pain and the men were soooooo easy. And I didn't want to sleep alone. Alcohol fueled the fire. I woke up one morning and realized my self respect was non existant. So I stopped.
So I knew I wouldn't make that mistake again. But right now at the base level of myself I need to feel desirable sexually and I ain't feelin' it folks. Haven't felt it for quite a while and it's hard for me to define myself somewhat without it. I've already lost my name in identity due to the divorce I'm no ones wife..I'm someones mom..but that doesn't help the desireability much.
I'll work through it,,I'm not sure how but I haven't been sure about any of this,
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Ok weighing in here :)
But I feel frivolous so when I first saw sex and standing I immediately thought of a position 8)
Could do that a few years ago but now I feel the need to lie down and rest...take the weight off you know???
I did the dating stuff. Lord knows why, but I needed to feel desirable I guess, wanted, potentially loved.
First guy. I persuaded him after a few dates to give it another try with his ex....not exactly the point of dating. I think I should have heeded the early warning signs
Good news was he followed my advice and is happily ensconced back with her and eternally grateful to me :) :)
Second guy was a mini octopus....hmmmm less said the better, embarrassement all round. Except I now know I just cant possibly date someone 2 feet smaller than me.
Third guy was definitely in MLC........
So point is, standing is a journey of self discovery and at points on the way we do what we feel we need to. Whether its right or wrong.
And I for one believe that God looks down, perhaps with a world weary sigh and says....ok you need to learn, you choose to do it this way. But I will still be with you, ready to mop up the tears and the mess and help pick you up to move on and learn.
Whether you are a covenant keeper or someone who doesn't have faith there are similar lessons and number one is I believe to love yourself first and foremost. Then and only then can you give some of yourself to another.
Some will escape this altogether, holding themselves for their husband and that is fine. Others will explore and journey differently. You know I really believe God has compassion for all.
For me I now realise I don't want to drag another along on a journey where I don't know the ending myself, how can I take another along with me no matter how brief or under what justification I may conjure up.
When I know myself, what I really want in the future, even if its only what I know I don't want ie no H, then yes I will let myself loose :o :o :o
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Rediscover--I find it interesting that you reacted so strongly to thinking you were being told to divorce. Why was that so awful for you? And if it is, how can you so easily think about having a sexual relationship outside of your marriage, but so wanting your marriage and family and not being sure if he could handle it? I am not judging, I just find your strong reaction puzzling--generally people who are open about sex are rather blase about the legalities of marriage.
We do define things differently, but I see in you a contradiction. As far as I was concerned, I did not enter into any kind of dating relationship until my marriage was over--and that was at BD. He told me he intended to divorce me and that I had 1-2 years of legal separation before the D would be final, so that I could get health insurance. If he could have, he would have divorced me that day, but he gave me the time I needed to get stable.
In my heart and mind, my marriage ended on BD, the paper was just a formality, but it seems for you divorce holds a greater meaning than sex... Just wondering, Lisa
Having not read my story, I guess it's hard for anyone to understand where I'm coming from.
I absolutely adore the ground my H walks on. The man I married is truly an amazing father. He's an amazing man. His friends (can't say his family bc i don't talk to them) ALL think my H loves me more than he loves himself. Deep down I beleive that too. My H is definitely in the midst of a crisis. Is it MLC? Everyone who reads my story thinks so. Do I? He is most definitely experiencing PTSD, and sometimes I think he does struggle with mid-life. Do I think he'll come out of this? Probably not.
Am I willing to divorce him? Never. He would most definitely consider this as an act of pure hatred on my part. He already believes I do not love him. He has already stated that I will divorce him long before he ever considers divorcing me. He has done everything he possible could to make me not love him over the last 16 months. EVERYTHING. The leaving, the refusing to take our children, the OW, the lies, the hiding, the betrayal he asked his family to create, the monster he has become. Was he a monster when he left. No. He stood in my driveway and asked me to hold him.
He definitely has feelings for OW. Whether or not those feeling run deep enough to last is a completely different story.
Will he care if I have sex with someone else, or will he forgive me was really not a direct question from me it was more of a retorical statement. Right now, I could tell him I was having sex with the entire state of California and his reaction to me would be, "I'm sure you are" He has absolutely no respect for me. None. He called me an effing b*tch in front of our D13 at my D10's birthday party. He called me a ow in front of both our children when we ran into him and discovered his affair with OW. Why'd he call me a ow? Because the night before his best friend and I went to a concert together. His best friend is also my friend and has been for my entire relationship with my H. When H couldn't be with me because of work or other responsibilities he sent this friend to be with me, to be there for me and to be my friend. His best friend and I are friends. We are not romantically or sexual interested in each other, as a matter of fact he loves another woman very deeply. Until H called me a ow last month he hadn't spoken to me since June 19th. Not a word. He sat through almost 3 hours of dinner with me and the girls and didn't speak to me. He came to my home on for my D's birthday party and called me names. He didn't even acknowledge that I was kind enough to include him. He didn't even show his own child enough respect to say hello to her mother when he was standing in her home.
Since August 2010 he has seen our children approximately 2 dozen times, I would be considerate to say he spent an entire month with them in the past 16 months.
He ended our relationship when he held me in the driveway that afternoon. He ended his realtionship with his children then too.
Do I want to reconcile. Absolutely. I love the man I know. Do I love the person he is now? No. He is a disgusting excuse for a human being.
I wasn't ever saying I was having sex with another man. I wanted to know how other people dealt with this struggle. The judgement and automatic assumption that I am ready to give up my stand because I have normal human thoughts is not ok with me. I wanted opinions, other stories, and support. Not the sugestion that I am immoral or irresponsible and I should consider divorce.
If it were so easy to have sex outside of my marriage I wouldn't have been asking for the support and guidance I thought I would get here. I would have just had sex.
One thing I dislike so much about the human race is that they are so quick to judge, to blame, and to out anyone who does not support what they believe to be correct thinking. To me, this site means I have a place to discuss openly all that we are facing in this crisis. Our stories are all different, but we all have the same doubts and confusion. I would never suggest anyone divorce because of a thought they had, or a struggle they are facing. I was married before, to a man who almost killed me. I fought for that marriage until there was nothing left to fight for. Only to find out 15 years after it ended there was still more to fight for. He gave me better advice than I've recieved from a single other person throught out this current crisis. He said if this is truly what you want and what you believe in, put your foot in the door and keep it open with everything you have.
So, yes I did ract and take it personal when someone said I should consider divorce. Divorce wasn't even a thought in my head when I opened a topic for discussion.
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V,
Thank you for joining the discussion. As usual, your words say so much!
Ok weighing in here :)
I did the dating stuff. Lord knows why, but I needed to feel desirable I guess, wanted, potentially loved.:
First guy. I persuaded him after a few dates to give it another try with his ex....not exactly the point of dating. I think I should have heeded the early warning signs
Good news was he followed my advice and is happily ensconced back with her and eternally grateful to me :) :)
I love this story! Absolutely love it. I think that could have been me - early on? or maybe today, as well. I would want to solve my date's previous relationships, too! ;)
Second guy was a mini octopus....hmmmm less said the better, embarrassement all round. Except I now know I just cant possibly date someone 2 feet smaller than me.
Funny, very funny.
Third guy was definitely in MLC........
One of my biggest fears! ::)
So point is, standing is a journey of self discovery and at points on the way we do what we feel we need to. Whether its right or wrong.
And I for one believe that God looks down, perhaps with a world weary sigh and says....ok you need to learn, you choose to do it this way. But I will still be with you, ready to mop up the tears and the mess and help pick you up to move on and learn.
Whether you are a covenant keeper or someone who doesn't have faith there are similar lessons and number one is I believe to love yourself first and foremost. Then and only then can you give some of yourself to another.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Much love to you,
L
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He called me a ow in front of both our children when we ran into him and discovered his affair with OW. Why'd he call me a ow? Because the night before his best friend and I went to a concert together. His best friend is also my friend and has been for my entire relationship with my H. When H couldn't be with me because of work or other responsibilities he sent this friend to be with me, to be there for me and to be my friend. His best friend and I are friends. We are not romantically or sexual interested in each other, as a matter of fact he loves another woman very deeply. Until H called me a ow last month he hadn't spoken to me since June 19th
Re-
Again here I go with a book ::) Sorry but me having no real frame of referance for any of this MLC crap that makes no sense. I insist somewhere someone must have written something to identify what the problems are in relationships in general.
You said your H loves you more than himself: then there is self esteem issues ( I think it's safe to say it's a standard MLC torment)
Maybe he is processing your friendship with his friend an EA.
I'm not passing judgement.I'm not saying it is an EA in the romantic sense.
I know for me I have no male friends because the sex gets in the way. Now maybe that's just me but I have NEVER had a male around me that did not express the sexual aspect of his interest. I'm not saying this because I am "All that" because I am not. I'm 52, short, blonde, and now just a bit overweight.
I do not have friendships with men. I don't spend time with other men or talk to men on the phone or get any support from other men as it takes away from the primary relationship. And I believe this works the same way with men. Men spending time with other women is a recipe for disaster,
Exskanks exfriend kept calling ExH I saw no reason for the two of them to be friends..the important part was neither did exh so it needed to end. If he had needed the friendship I would have walked. It wasn't because of how he would function in the relationship with her it, the question for me would be : What's going on in HER head.
Men in general need to feel needed- maybe it's safe to say we all do but men really do. They identify being male by being needed by a female in most cases.
The book I read that has renforced these views is called Emotional Infidelity How to Avoid it and 10 Other Secrets to a Great Marriage. ( Funny huh? me wanting to know secrets to a great marriage; and here I am divorced ::))
It's take on male female relationships is pretty traditional but maybe that's what's lacking in society today. I'm really starting to think so.
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I wasn't ever saying I was having sex with another man. I wanted to know how other people dealt with this struggle. The judgement and automatic assumption that I am ready to give up my stand because I have normal human thoughts is not ok with me. I wanted opinions, other stories, and support. Not the sugestion that I am immoral or irresponsible and I should consider divorce.
If it were so easy to have sex outside of my marriage I wouldn't have been asking for the support and guidance I thought I would get here. I would have just had sex.
Rediscover, please don't feel so bad about these questions. I too think that they are natural. Sex is part of a marriage, part of intimacy, trust and honesty. In MLC those things are broken, not by us, but by the people we love most in the world. The world is a complex place. It is not America or England, or Azerbaijan. It is huge and it is diverse and it is complicated. I do not have anwers but I do know this; I spent my formative years, my childhood, moving around our globe. I believe in universality. I believe in right and wrong. All cultures have this concept. In some the concept is biblical, in others it is islamic, in others it is tribal, or buddhist or... the list goes on.... The core principal stays the same. I believe in the golden rule "treat others as you would be treated yourself". For me that is a guiding principle. sleeping with an old friend who knew the score, I did not hurt anyone. I had an intimate encounter with a worthy human being. I believe in spoken honesty with others. When H left and moved in with another person, I did not promise fidelity to him in that context - it was a mutual agreement (once broken by him, or by me, the deal was off - in this case it was broken by him and our promises to each other were rendered meaningless (others see it differently, but I am a liberal and a human rights advocate and I believe in equality). Divorce is not what we wanted. Of course. I see myself as divorced though. IN all but in paper. You must do what i right for you, taking into account the feelings of the people that your behaviour affects. I had sex with an old friend. It was fun, we both enjoyed it. It was over. I had sex with a man who developed deeper feeling for me. More complicated. Stupid of me. I regret it.
It is hard to know the difference in advance. That is all I can say. I have no advice. Look after you and remember your core values. Hugs, S&D
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So, yes I did ract and take it personal when someone said I should consider divorce. Divorce wasn't even a thought in my head when I opened a topic for discussion.
I went back and re-read what I originally wrote to you.
I did use your post as the framework for my response, since you were asking the questions. You were asking a hypothetical question ("Why is it a double standard that H can have all the sex he wants with OW and IF I have sex I'm no longer standing? How can someone else tell me I'm not standing in this case?") and I intended my response to be equally hypothetical. I am sorry if I made you think that I assumed that you had planned to start dating or sleeping with someone.
But as I said before, I will not censor my advice or opinions to fit your (previously-unstated) sensibilities. The two times I suggested divorce in my post were entirely hypothetical:
1) If your spouse has done something that you consider completely unacceptable or a "deal-breaker", then I would suggest filing in order to protect yourself. It doesn't have to be adultery; it could be theft of money or property, abuse, exposing you to any number of communicable or sexually-transmitted diseases, or endangering you or other family members by engaging in illegal or risky behavior like selling or abusing drugs.
2) If you are considering doing something to dishonor yourself or your marriage vows and jeopardize any future reconciliation with your spouse, I think it would be a good idea to file for divorce and end THAT relationship before bringing someone else into your life. I dated someone who was separated from their husband for a little over a year, and there was a lot of stress in that relationship; her husband was involved with drugs, and she was trying to get herself and their baby son away from both of those influences. Their mutual friends kept sniffing around, and she had problems with money and other valuables being stolen from her apartment. She eventually got divorced and (as far as I know) moved past that time in her life, but it was well after we had split up.
Divorce is painful, and traumatic, and has long-lasting effects for everyone involved. I have counseled many people — on this site and others — to reconsider ending things when I thought there was a chance things could still be worked out, I do not suggest divorce lightly, and I have never told someone that they must get divorced, even ones in the kinds of situations I mentioned above.
At the same time, divorce does not have to mean that the relationship between two people is irrevocably ended. There are people here who are going through a divorce or are now divorced and plan to continue their Stand. Even though I would not, in general, recommend that someone file for divorce, having a divorce thrust upon them by an MLCing spouse may give both of them the space they each need to work through their issues and recover. I know this from personal experience; between the time I proposed to my wife and our wedding, my parents got divorced and remarried. (And this was not a "whoops, we made a mistake" remarriage; my father was having an EA with his first ex-wife, had moved out, and was moving to Washington to be with her. That relationship lasted less than 5 months.)
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Voyager I just wanted to say that I think it is truly awesome that you talked your first date into going back to his wife!!!!Woww!Way to go girl! I have been laughing for five minutes.
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I told my H after he left "we may be separated but we are still married".
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I told my ExH after we were divorced he could bring a wheel barrow full of papers in for me to sign and I'd sign them; but I still considered him to be my husband...
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Rediscover,
I just wanted to chime in with support you. You described your beliefs and value set eloquently and in think we all have a better understanding of where you're coming from. Stick to your guns and keep posting!!
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I'll say this again- the emotional connection is a short circut and probably has been for most of the LBS and MLCERs relationship also......now with an OW or OM it's less than that it's TOTALLY disconnected. They are emotional Zombies.
OMG, exactly what my H said to me to describe his emotional state during the affair he just ended. Is there hope when the can actually see it and admit it?
M 42, H 46, Together = 1998
Married = 2003 (small) 2006 (big)
Failed IVF's = 3 (H deficient)
1 Dog, 2 Cats
BD = Nov 9, 2011 = caught him texting, admits emotional relationship during 2mth work trip with MOW from our area
he met 2wks before trip. Upon BD, OW leaves her H (no kids)
Dec 2, 2011 = After snooping, find out affair physical. OW flew to meet him in Sept, and again
for next work trip end of Oct (all on her own dime)
H = Dec 2 He ends with OW.
Dec 6 Goes to Lawyer appt made before BD, files nothing
Dec 7 H business trip
Dec 8 OW calls him crying, texting resumes
Dec 20 Flies directly to parents for Xmas (my request)
Dec 28 Drives to OW now living 2 hrs from us in her other home.
Dec 29 Returns home to take clothes & things, left everything untouched and crying.
Dec 31 Calls begging to come home. Breaks up with OW drives directly 2hrs to our house.
Jan 3. Finds out my sister knows of affair, freaks out, says were over b/c cant face my family.
Jan 4 Heads back to parents as scheduled previously.
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TP - BD for me was 2 yrs ago.
3 months before that my H was saying that he no longer missed the boys and I when he went away on work trips.
At BD my H said that he was afraid of intimacy.
He has said many, many insightful things over the last two years, but he always cycles away again.
It's only recently that he's tried to finish things with the OW. We all know what a slow and painful process that is! Needless to say, she is still in the picture.
Some of them do seem to be able to have these insights, but it doesn't seem to stop the crisis. Once they're in the tunnel, the only way seems to be through.
HB also talks of either the MLCer or the spouse yanking the MLCer out of the process. Only to have them enter an even bigger crisis, some time down the track.
There are a few of us on here that think that this happened to our H's.
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OMG, exactly what my H said to me to describe his emotional state during the affair he just ended. Is there hope when the can actually see it and admit it?
Well it's possible. I would consider it a huge step in them figuring themselves out. My ExH hasn't come up with that explaination yet- he just kept saying he was "emotionally drained"
HB also talks of either the MLCer or the spouse yanking the MLCer out of the process.
I wish I had a clue what NOT to do to keep this from happening. OW is DONE and I'm not trying to interfere with anything else he feels he needs to do ( band etc)
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HB also talks of either the MLCer or the spouse yanking the MLCer out of the process. Only to have them enter an even bigger crisis, some time down the track.
There are a few of us on here that think that this happened to our H's.
I am one of the LBS's here that have dealt with this crisis for almost 6 years...But as Kikki puts it here, I yanked honey out in 05/06 and then he returned with a vengeance in 2010...so walk lightly, second time around is ruthless and horribly painful then the first bout. Ugh!
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I yanked honey out in 05/06 and then he returned with a vengeance in 2010...
Syn..
What did you do??
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I forced him to choose...and that was way to early in the the process. I enterfered with his R with OW. I litterally forced my way back into the home BEFORE he was ready...
I also became OW to OW and Told her ALL about it..I forced HER out at well..LoL
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Well lord knows I wanted to force the issue also. But he divorced me so fast I didn't really feel like it was my place to try to force anything. I mean I knew I had to get out of the way to let him do whatever it was he needed to do..or should I say he THOUGHT he needed to do.
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I only realised in hindsight that he was going through something back then, It took going through it again THIS time to figure out WTH it was/is. Putting it all together after the fact anyway...lol If I had known this before, I wouldnt have done what I did, and maybe it wouldnt have come back 10 fold!
Just remember (Newbies) you dont want to go through this AGAIN! so Let Go and Let God..Its the only way while DEEP in Replay.
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Rediscover, I say this with love and kindness, and it comes from a place of knowing--having been there. I still think your reactions are too strong given what was said. I think the hardest thing we all deal with is projection--knowing what we believe and feel and what we think others believe and feel about us, and then hearing what we expect to hear. I think you are doing a lot of it here.
Think hard about how you feel about your love and your stand and then come back in a week and read your posts. I wonder if you aren't questioning your stand, it's okay everyone does, that's why they're here, or questioning your morals, values, principles, again, it's okay, we all do. I think when there are spats on the board, it is almost 95% of the time because the poster hears something not said here, but said in their heads, often very quietly and often without permission.
There is very little judgment on this board--even to me who has always been a vocal non-stander, but I think a lot of people hear their own projections and then can project anger back out at caring strangers rather than face the evil within. It's okay, people here are pretty tough and we all know it, but I did that a LOT and everyone here made me face myself. It is hard to make choices and decisions where we are, and we don't want to, it's so nice to think maybe we can come here and just get some answers, but it will never be that easy.
Again, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I hear me in you, and as others helped me, as painful as it was to overcome my denial, now I have to pay it forward. Take care and love yourself, do what is right for you, but take your time figuring it out. Love and light, Lisa
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Lisa--
Just curious, did your coming to terms with yourself here on the message boards translate into a transformation in your real life?
In other words, you say that folks here forced you to face yourself--perhaps you were a little defensive in the past, if I understand you correctly.
Did this help you in the rest of your life?
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Lisa--
Just curious, did your coming to terms with yourself here on the message boards translate into a transformation in your real life?
In other words, you say that folks here forced you to face yourself--perhaps you were a little defensive in the past, if I understand you correctly.
Did this help you in the rest of your life?
Hell yeah! But I am not sure if you're looking for something specific...
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I waiver between wanting to stop standing for my sanity and continuing to stand for the same reason
Lisa
I know exact what I said, I don't need to go back in a week and re-read my posts. I was very clear from the very beginning that I do consider not standing- for my sanity.
However, I disagree-judgement was placed on me and others who have thought about sex outside the marriage, have already had sex outside the marriage, or had sex with the MLC'er.
Or joked about having sex with others on the board.
For the most part, this board has stayed a safe non-judgemental environment. On occassion, it has become a battle ground where moral values come into play. The topic of sex is definitely a battle ground. So many people have feelings about what the MLC'er have done to them and they are taking that hostility out on others. Take it out on the person you are angry at.
I reacted because this is not a place I want to come and be judged. Bottom line.
You can tell me all you'd like that based on your experience, your action caused this reaction.
You start telling me if you do this, then you should do this because of this, THIS IS JUDGEMENT.
Also, Lisa I don't know your story, but am I clear you are a non-stander?
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I reacted because this is not a place I want to come and be judged. Bottom line.
You can tell me all you'd like that based on your experience, your action caused this reaction.
You start telling me if you do this, then you should do this because of this, THIS IS JUDGEMENT.
Rollercoasterrider — the woman who created, owns, and maintains this forum — has suggested that divorce may be necessary to protect one's self. She speaks often of a friend for whom Standing was not only a bad idea, but created so much stress that it literally killed her.
If you are looking for a place where the word "divorce" is never uttered or contemplated, then this may not be it. Or do you want to tell RCR how to run her own site?
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And frankly, you claim that this isn't a place where you come to be judged, but you're awfully free with judgments of your own.
You've accused people who suggest divorce of being secretly angry at their MLCing spouses and lashing out, with absolutely no basis in fact. You certainly don't know anything about my life or my Stand if you believe that's what I'm doing.
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It is absolutely true that standing may be the wrong option for some people. Nonetheless, with MLC I would never suggest to someone that they should "stand" or that they should "divorce". The decision on how to deal with the complexities of MLC lies with the LBS.
I guess that what is at debate here is more a question (which different people answer differently and this site, to some degree, allows for that) about what "standing" is.
For some, it is taking a moral stand to maintain an existing marriage and uphold existing marriage vows despite the fact that the MLCer is not doing so and has left the marriage. The more you adhere to Christian doctrines about marriage, the more likely you are to be in this first group, I am thinking.
For others, it is simply a decision not completely slam the door shut on the possibility of reconciliation one day by maintaining a civil and compassionate attitude to the MLCer, but seeing the marriage as completely finished from the moment the spouse walked away from it. For those who are spiritual, but not really religious (or even agnostic and atheist) it may be more likely that we see things in these terms, although I am not making a blanket rule!
RCR does state that this site is based on Christian principles, and I accept and respect that, but she also states that people dealing with MLC who are not strict Christians are welcome to join and I think that this is great because what we share in common as people is greater than the things that separate us. We all loved our spouses, we all desired monogamous marriages based on trust, respect and love, and we were all surprised and shocked by MLC and its repurcussions on our familes and each other. We all need support and direction and 2x4's - but those things can be given with compassion and consideration, rather than judgement and condemnation.
I think that it is fair to debate these points, and of course we can not ever get far from the issue of divorce as for many of us it is a reality that we face everyday. However, I think that we can become so focused on our own point of view about who constitutes a valid or worthy stander that we narrow ourselves of to the great wealth of insight into human nature that a broader set of ideas exposes us to. We do not have to agree with each other, but I think that it is important that we try not judge each other too harshly. We are all dealing with the same thing, but we are also all living very different realities from each other and it can sometimes be easier to judge and condemn than it is to show understanding and compassion. I realise a fault that I often had within my marriage was a rigidity of thought that sometimes blinded me to another person's pain. I thought I knew all the right decisions and all the wrong decisions and that I would always make the right choice. I was arrogant, and I was wrong. None of us really know how we would react if forced to live out someone elses day to day reality. We think we do, but we dont. Honestly, I thought if H ever cheated I would slam a door in his face and never let him back. But at BD I asked him to stay and try to work things out...
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Rediscover, I'm finding myself exasperated with your accusations of being judged.
Frankly, everyone judges, and if they do not, they are bound to repeat others' mistakes.
Nobody is above judgement, and different people will judge you differently.
If you're here telling your story, it will be judged, so that appropriate advice can be given. Of course, the judgement given must be judged by you and considered, challenged, rejected, modified, or followed. It's all up to you. But it's just not nice to ask for help or consideration from others, and then react so defensively to it.
In my experience, those who cry loudest about feeling judged are those with the most to learn, and those who are hurting the most. I believe Lisa when she says she identifies with you, at least with the you that you are projecting for the rest of us. That Lisa reached out to you shows how loving she really is. That you are so quick to lash out at her points to some insecurity in your person, which is natural in your state. We're all here with your or have been where you are, and we might understand a little more than you are giving any of us credit for.
Frankly, I think the replies given to you in response to your reactions have been measured and patient and kind.
I hope you will have a change of heart and be patient with others here.
There is a lot of insight here and a lot of good advice.
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Redi, You can hammer me all you want, I am not going to take it personally, but just think about what I said.
And when I told you to take some time and come back to reread what you wrote, I meant it--and not as an insult. I come back about every three or four months and read almost ALL my old posts and every time I learn something more about me. I can read where I resisted, where I grew and regressed. I can remember the pain and know that I don't feel it anymore and I can see myself more clearly--the pain, the shame, the fear--it's all there when you read between the lines. But the key is you can only read between the lines when you are objective and you can't do it to your own posts until time passes. We see things that you will see in your own posts somewhere down the road.
So, yes SOIC, I am a much different person than I was on BD. I know myself much better, my shame triggers, and my insecurities, I can see my projections and those of others much better. I have always been a good listener and have often been called on to provide counsel to friends--a voodoo doctor once told me I have an unusual healing aura--but now I actually feel like I can understand pain and shame and fear in a way I never could before. I am a better and stronger person for this mess, so no matter what happens, I am going to be okay.
It's okay redi to work through the negative stuff here, just be careful not to lash out at the ones most able to help--most are forgiving, but we are all hurt souls and a bad lash in a bad cycle could scar for a long time... Love and light, Lisa
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Hey everybody,
Just chiming in here as it seems this thread has gotten a bit off-track, but I suspect it was never on the track it appeared to be from the get-go.
Lisa, I applaud you for your patience and understanding as it's obvious Redi is at a point where she's in alot of pain. We've all been there, and many of use are there now. Heck, I'm only in my second good day in a row after weeks of cycling down. I may be only numb from all the hurt but at least it feels better than suicidal depression. I'm not coming out in favor of lashing out, but I understand completely and would take no offense either.
My suggestion is that we forget the title of this thread for a bit and focus on the issue at hand. Redi, we are here and we care. You have EVERY right to be hurt and angry at your H and we have all been there as well. I see your strength in many of your posts and look forward to when you have found it once more. Please try to put the feelings of being judged and persecuted by the wayside so that we can help you with what is really going on. Again, we are here and we care.
Peace to you all.
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I agree with Thundarr - sometimes the problem with written communication is that we react rather than respond. I think that Lisa has been RESPONDING and some others of us have been reacting. I also think that we have to remember how low we can all feel sometimes in this journey, how raw and battered and misunderstood we come to this site feeling. Those are all things we need to work on in ourselves and sometimes a 2x4 is just what we need, but other times I think some tlc and little bit of compassion is called for with each other.
When I read rediscover's posts, I read that she is feeling attacked. I don't think that people are attacking her, but she is feeling peoples opinions (some of which are strong and forceful) as an attack on her character and choices. I also feel that she is in pain - pain that all of us understand, and that pain can cause confusion about the way we view everything in the world and sometimes we reach out to others to help us through our muddle. Again the problem with writing, rather than speaking is that we don't see the compassion or kindness in another person's eyes, as they discuss how they feel about some of these things.
I personally do not agree with everything that people say on this board, although there is much wisdom to be found here and I also know only to well that I don't have all the answers! People here definitely do not all agree with me. A few months ago, I might have decided to not be honest, but now I understand that that is ok. People don't have to like, agree with or share my opinion, but that works both ways - I don't have to like, agree with or share their opinion either - I can discuss it with them and make my feelings clear, but it not my job to try to control their thoughts. That is what makes the tapestries of our lives so interesting, so complicated and so rich.
Thundarr is right, Redi - you have every right to feel anger, hurt and disbelief. Those feelings do not just disappear, and to get back to the original topic - they do not disappear, fade or feel any better for having sex with someone else. At the risk of sounding crass, having sex with someone else is little more than scratching an itch. It is the individual's choice and I would never judge you or tell you you ought to divorce if you do it - those things are your choice. But do not do it because you think it will alleviate your pain. It won't. I know from first hand experience.
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But do not do it because you think it will alleviate your pain. It won't. I know from first hand experience.
I'm right behind S&D on this one. I know - I've seen me do it!!
But folks need to do whatever they feel might help the debilitating pain this absolute insanity inflicts. One person telling another anything doesn't usually work and for good reason; most folks need to experiance it all thier own way.
I think what anyone tries to help with here is being able to give multiple views on any given hurdle that we all pretty much face at one time or another. Sex is a big one.
This site held me back quite a few times from doing some things that may have been pretty stupid; not just sex- but I knew it would be my decision anyway when it was over and I didn't feel like I would have been a "lesser" person on the forum because of it.
I was really afraid to admit to the EA I had 16 years ago for fear that I would not be welcome here. That wasn't the case with that and it won't be the case with whatever you choose to do either Re.
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I think men (and I am not speaking for ALL men - just most) - are typically emotionally bonded to their wives sexually. I am not say that men are not emotionally bonded to their wives in other ways, but I believe that the strongest emotion men have with their wives is during sex. (I am not a man...I could be wrong).
Thus, a man has a more difficult time forgiving his wife for being physically unfaithful. The physical betrayal is worse. I think men may be able to forgive an emotional affair (non physical) easier than a woman.
L
Though many might not agree with this I wholehearted do. I love my W and at times when we ML there is a heightened sense of appreciation and I love every inch of her and every sound she makes. Being inside of her and surrounded by her having every nerve ending in my body screaming out to feel the touch of her skin makes me feel closer to being alive and to her, at those times I want to thank her for giving me a gift, for loving me and sharing with me her body and soul. It is as close to being sacred as I can imagine. It is the thought of those times that keeps me from going out and satisfying my natural urge. It is also my greatest torture at the moment that she does not share that with me anymore. Hence to me thinking about her sharing that with another M is more hurtful then almost anything I can imagine. I sometimes think it is childish to think that way but I still can't help it. One of the many unresolved issues my W has that she is trying to resolve is that I was her only lover and she never went out dating or spent time on the town with her girlfriends. We married young and she has told me often that she wants to date other men. Now I know she has not acted on those things to any great extent but she did carry on a number of EA's online (I hate Facebook & Twitter) I was stupid and used my talents to electronically snoop so I was privy to it all. (would not recommend anyone ever try doing that it will just cause you more pain than it's worth) but I have already forgotten most of that pain and have been able to forgive her for it. I do not know if I could be so forgiving if it had been a physical affair.
I have just one other thing to add on a side note, I have been plagued with thoughts of sex for months now as I began hormone injections to treat a deficiency, I feel like Jekyll and Hyde but so far I have been able to keep the monster in check. I believe it to be a very personal decision as to weather or not someone Standing decides to have sex, sometimes it can steel your resolve and others will find it destroys them. I am after all a man and do not really have a problem separating the sex from intimacy for. I have long been under the influence of that double standard and no longer question it. I have chosen not to pursue a sexual friendship at this time even though my W has told me a number of times that I should as long as I am careful and use protection. ( She really blew my mind with that twisted thought) She seems to think that if I take care of it with someone else I will leave her alone and she will be more able to think about what she wants out of life. I told her that is not what I want and will wait for her to become sane again.
Anyway I guess my answer would have to be that I would not judge you if you did or did not decide to have sex during your Stand and I would not tell you that you are not Standing if you did. You have to do what is right for you and what will heal you in order to be of any use when and if they come to their senses.
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She seems to think that if I take care of it with someone else I will leave her alone and she will be more able to think about what she wants out of life.
Yeah ...well ..crap... Just try it and you'll find out she'll be more than a little pissed off. THEN you'll have to sort through the mess that will create.
I love my W and at times when we ML there is a heightened sense of appreciation and I love every inch of her and every sound she makes. Being inside of her and surrounded by her having every nerve ending in my body screaming out to feel the touch of her skin makes me feel closer to being alive and to her, at those times I want to thank her for giving me a gift, for loving me and sharing with me her body and soul. It is as close to being sacred as I can imagine.
This is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read that a man wrote about the experience.
And Riv? If you've never told your wife this? When things start to get to the point of putting themselves back together- PLEASE TELL HER.
I would simply be in a puddle if my exH described making love with me like this....
And ladies: This is WHY men may not be able to get past us giving our bodies to someone else.
I have a feeling a LOT of men feel like Riv has expressed when they are ML with us; they simply cannot bring themselves to say it.
Thanks Riv ;)
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I agree, Riven, that is a lovely description that rings true to me. In this, I've come to the conclusion that I probably think more like a male when it comes to this sort of thing. (Yes, I know there are exceptions but generally speaking.) Physical affection and ML is the ultimate bonding experience for me. Nothing else comes close, and without it I just can't feel fully loved. Also, bouncing off the topics of a couple other threads, I'm not bothered by porn or erotica (okay, not counting violent or extreme stuff here) and have found it to be helpful and kinda fun in past relationships. Although extremely painful, I can theoretically see the potential for moving past an EA, but just the thought of a PA makes me completely and utterly bat$h*t crazy.
Remember that Friends episode where Ross and Rachel are fighting over a girl he slept with while they were on a break? I had something similar happen with a boyfriend years ago. We split up for awhile, and then were getting back together, with both of us SOOOO happy about it. We were close to ML and he told me beforehand that he had been with someone while we were broken up. I will always respect him for his honesty, and I will always love him, but I could never get past it, although we are still friends years later, and have lovely memories of our time together.
By the same token, I could not stay emotionally connected to one person and be physically intimate with another. I would be doing harm to myself emotionally and psychologically, and be betraying my own personal ethics. I would have to make a clean break first.
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I love my W and at times when we ML there is a heightened sense of appreciation and I love every inch of her and every sound she makes. Being inside of her and surrounded by her having every nerve ending in my body screaming out to feel the touch of her skin makes me feel closer to being alive and to her, at those times I want to thank her for giving me a gift, for loving me and sharing with me her body and soul. It is as close to being sacred as I can imagine.
This is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read that a man wrote about the experience.
And Riv? If you've never told your wife this? When things start to get to the point of putting themselves back together- PLEASE TELL HER.
I would simply be in a puddle if my exH described making love with me like this....
And ladies: This is WHY men may not be able to get past us giving our bodies to someone else.
I have a feeling a LOT of men feel like Riv has expressed when they are ML with us; they simply cannot bring themselves to say it.
Thanks Riv ;)
Thank you I am glad it rings true to you.
I have tried many times to relate that feeling to her over the years but I think it took until now for me to express it in quite this way. Saying "I love you" just never felt like it captured what I was feeling. I will remember to tell her when the time is right.
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Physical affection and ML is the ultimate bonding experience for me. Nothing else comes close, and without it I just can't feel fully loved
Whew! :P Boy am I glad another woman admitted to this because I feel the same way. That's why I don't think I'll heal fully until we do ML again. Even though he's been with someone else I can't let that stop me.
I have tried many times to relate that feeling to her over the years but I think it took until now for me to express it in quite this way. Saying "I love you" just never felt like it captured what I was feeling. I will remember to tell her when the time is right.
Yep I love you just doesn't seem to cut it sometimes does it??? And Riv if you can actually say this to your W? Your doing GREAT!! A lot of men could not. It's making yourself very vunerable. I'll also say that if you wrote her a letter or gave her a card with this written inside she could read it over and over again that would be just fine also. As long as she gets the "message"
This thread really needs to be locked and a new one started I don't know what etiqette is? Rediscover started it; does she lock it? I'd like to keep the discussion going maybe with a new title?
Help? OP or RCR..or anyone?
Edit: Keep this one going for a while, it will be OK. - OLDPILOT
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Remember that Friends episode where Ross and Rachel are fighting over a girl he slept with while they were on a break?
Funny you mention this because when my daughters and I had the encounter with H & OW and I said, "You are married and yes this is an affair." Both H & OW insisted we were no longer married because he left. They both truly feel this is "a break".
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Rediscover,
They are just trying to justify what they are doing.....as it is WRONG.......
I guess all you have to do is snap your fingers and viola! you aren't married anymore!
Just more of the fantasy...pretend......that is MLC.
Hope you are doing well,
L
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Riven really struck a cord with me as I have have reread the thread I'm struck by the difference in how women and men (as least these few) have responded.
Men, myself included, attach tremendous significance to ML with our wife from an emotional standpoint and I agree that the violation of the affair for men is driven by the physical.
Women seem to attach significance to the initial physical and then the emotional connection which follows. The sex does not have the meaning (IMHO) as much as the emotional. The sense is its just sex.
Strange
Mac
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Well again this is what I've read:
Women need the emotional connestion first in order to ML. (If it is to be meaningful)
Men on the other hand form more of an emotional bond with women through the physical.
Emotional connection for women are usually formed through communication. She needs to know she can feel safe expressing emotion. ( crying, venting about other things etc). As long as a man validates and doesn't try to "fix" or solve the problems she will go to him and feel safe. Women need a man to express being afraid or stressed out or any other emotion they might be experincing.
Men on the other hand resisit the verbal commnication as they are uncomfortable with feeling vulnerable or "unmanly" this has happened to them through conditioning since children of "Real men don't cry" etc etc..Or they think they need to fix things. They don't they just need to listen.
That's why I told Riv to WRITE down the way he feels if he cannot express it. Mens love and emotion are acted out in the physical. Men NEED to know they are satifying thier partner. They need to feel accepted and wanted ( as do women)
So it's a wonder to me how men and women ever get together to begin with :P I know for me sex became a feeling like I was being used because I never got any verbal renforcement from him. I just felt like he was relieveing himself. I got nothing out of it. :'(
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Sounds right to me ... men (in general) don't use words and verbal communication too well, my H is definitely lacking in that area, however, he is expressing his love in physical ways with me now ... he didn't for a long while, when he was 'in love' with OW which he believes he was ... he reserved his physical love for her.
He always said one of his favourite songs was 'more than words' by Extreme ... he believes actions speak louder than words. As for me, I like both! Words are important, just as the physical expression of love is important too. I love what Riven wrote in his earlier post, I wish my H had said that to me ... that would make any woman melt!
I don't have a son, have two daughters, but to Mums out there with sons, ... could you teach them to express themselves verbally, to express their feelings? Or is it a genetic thing that males generally are not as verbal?? Or peer pressure? Interesting ... and the more I think about it the more I realise that this lack of verbal expression by my H is nothing new, he was always like that!
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There still seems to be a debate about the different way men and women view sex and infidelity. I would like to put up a statement and see where it goes.
At a certain age a man has a relationship with a woman and looking at the nature part of all this, he sees this woman as the means to pass on his genes. So he wants this woman to be dedicated to him.
This is nature not a conscous thing.
This could explain why some men (not all) are very possessive when the woman who is his partner is raising the family with him. He wants to know he is raising HIS children. This is his EGO.
Women may have a different perspective on the relationship when they are raising children and look for security in all its forms.
I have been alone now without intimacy for 5 years. I worked away during the week to provide a high living standard.
My wife is younger than me by 6 years and takes up with a man 2 years younger than she is.
My wife almost gloated in my face and said, she would not give him up and I should 'go and burn some rubber'. Now what does that mean???
BD was 3 years ago and I have been 'standing' since.
But, next birthday I will be 60. That tends to focus the mind a little.
When I discovered my wife's adultery I was not angry, but felt dispair that she must have been in a place that she felt this was justified. My daughters aged 21 and 24 at the time were devastated and in disbelief, but this affair continues and I have been away for 2 years. It follows all the pattern and script of MLC.
Now ALL the women on this forum are very helpful. I would have been lost without them and the same goes for the support I have had off the forum. It is predominantly femail. Men are not good at this.
There are many lonely women I find and many men who have given up on future relationships for one reason or another.
Last year I met someone who was supporting me and discussing my issues and standing. This moved to a FWB for a while. I had not had sex for about 5 years and did not know if it was even possible so much were my functions asleep. This is a problem for a man as he has to meet some standard.
Never before have I experienced ED, but I did and it scared me to death. I thought it was age, but now I know it was guilt.
That FWB ended gently but it did me the power of good. I felt 30 years younger. That lovely lady was older and wiser than I.
Recently after such a long time standing I am starting to feel that I don't want my wife back. She is not the person I married.
She used to be truthful but now I can't believe anything and my daughters feel the same. She has moulded in character to the obnoxious OM that none of our wide circle of friends find acceptable.
What future can she have?
I realise that what was acceptable in our marriage at the time was not really good enough and during the 31 year marriage some things I should not have accepted.
We were asleep at the wheel.
Now at this new decade I know what I am looking for and think that possibly my wife can not provide it.
Men do get very emotionally attached with sex and can put emotion aside but in later life you may see ED.
Women get emotionally attached before sex and after, but there may be no physical evidence of emotion being low.
My wife is now pushing through the legal side, although very slowly, so I dont think her heart is in it. But OM is the driving force.
He has never been married or had children. He sees our assets as a goal.
The stress on my wife now shows and the once beauty seems to have lost her shine. How long will their relationship last once the marriage is destroyed and assets divided?
Will sex in their relationship still have its attraction?
I think as we are older the resentment at sex in these situations diminishes and it is the loss of trust that is more a problem if there is a reconcilliation.
After 50 nobody is building families but only long term trust, comfort and care is at risk.
MLC and non MLC affairs are so destructive, I despair at the stupidity.
I'm looking forward to being 60 in March 2012.
This is my view from my experience but I would like to hear other opinions.
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Rediscover
Both H & OW insisted we were no longer married because he left.
When my D had a frank discussion with her dad and she told him he was having an affair he also said that once he left he didn't feel and wasn't married. OW made sure she didn't allow a PA until he left so she could say she hadn't helped him commit adultery.
I suppose they have to convince themselves of this as part of their justification and to eliminate any guilt post BD. As time moves forward eventually that guilt returns to be addressed.
xx
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Yes I think my H too thought that when he wasn't living here, we weren't really married so he could do what he liked ... he still felt the guilt though I know he did. I'm not sure if he feels married now ... even though we are reconnecting, I think he feels we are 'going out' ... its a start.
But as Freddy says, the betrayal for me was not the sex ... that was important, but we'd both had other partners before we met anyway, but it was the trust, the loss of that which really hurt, and it still does ... even though H is back physically, and is not giving me reasons to not trust him. I don't really need reasons any longer to be distrustful ... its gone for now, I think what I do need is positive reassurances from him... and that is where his lack of words is most noticeable.
xxxx
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I think what Riven said was wonderful......I don't think I'll ever feel like that again with my H....he has taken that away from me.... because for me he was my ONE and only and trust was wrapped up with the ML....
So sad.....H will never know just what he's done to me.....
Fox xx
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Just found this link. Going through this issue now.
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I wasn't sure if I should post this on my own thread but it seemed to fit the discussion so I'll post it here:
I met a guy a couple of weeks back who ended up staying over at my house. It was the first time in 2 years I let anyone else apart from H stay in my bed. We were intimate but we didn't have sex.
I thought I would just 'go with the flow' and see what would happen - We texted a couple of times and tried to arrange going to a party together and / or out for a drink, for some reason it just didn't happen. I guess some 'higher power' (call it what you like) didn't want us to cross paths again.
still, I am thankful for the experience and don't regret it. it has shown me how much I miss the physical side of things, and that that is a huge part of ME as a person. Something that I had put on a shelf, or in a box and locked away.
I should add, it had nothing to do with my feelings for H. AT ALL. The guy I met knew about the situation I was in.
and although I know many of you won't agree with me (and I don't expect anyone to) I have decided that should I wish to enter into a physical relationship with someone whilst this is still going on with my H, I think I would have to be honest and say, at this point in my journey I probably would. I would have never even considered that a month ago.
I know that this would not be considered as 'standing' anymore although I would probably consider myself standing despite of that. At this point, I would always take my H back, BUT I am not willing to let my life pass me by. (And I don't want to spend another 2 years not being intimate with anyone). I just miss it too much. I don't miss being in a relationship so much, it's the intimacy I miss.
I would never lie to anyone about my situation and I will never hurt anyone deliberately, I would always be honest. But who knows, I might meet someone and decide I want to be with them and leave my marriage behind.
Right now, I don't know what will happen but I don't want to give my life to my Husband anymore, not in the same way anyway.
I love this man with all my heart and I wish nothing more than coming out of this together as a couple but as I don't know the outcome I cannot stop living.
I don't know. It's a really tricky one.
peonyxxx
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and although I know many of you won't agree with me (and I don't expect anyone to) I have decided that should I wish to enter into a physical relationship with someone whilst this is still going on with my H, I think I would have to be honest and say, at this point in my journey I probably would. I would have never even considered that a month ago.
I know that this would not be considered as 'standing' anymore although I would probably consider myself standing despite of that. At this point, I would always take my H back, BUT I am not willing to let my life pass me by. (And I don't want to spend another 2 years not being intimate with anyone). I just miss it too much. I don't miss being in a relationship so much, it's the intimacy I miss.
I see no reason for you to be judged harshly for this. We have all changed our definitions of marriage because of our spouses' crises in one way or another. As situations we've never dreamed of come before us, we each have to make the best choices we can for ourselves at any given moment. In some ways, many of us were pushed into an open marriage we did not want. Our other choice is the big D. What is right or wrong in a Stand? Each Stander has to discover that. It's easy to decide upfront, but until we face temptation, do we really know? Our timetables vary, we cycle, and feelings sometimes change. I think you are being realistic and healthy in not jumping into something, but analyzing your reasoning first. Whatever you choose will no doubt be the right road for you.
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Peony, I second Ready2. I’ve dated and had a boyfriend since husband left. He left nearly 6 years ago, a lot of life goes on in 6 years. What changed is that, now, I want more than date or a boyfriend. I want to remarryand husband dragging the divorce is on the way of that.
Until a point I was up to readily take husband back so any relationship would have to be light. That has also changed. If I meet someone I want to spend the rest of my life with, will not turn in down because one day husband may return.
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I got quite a bit of backlash from starting this thread. I'm going to be honest and say that I was physically intimate with someone since starting this thread. I have an emotional attachment to the person and our relationship didn't change because of the intimacy.
I do think my feelings about H changed, but because I gained a better sense of myself. I know what I don't want, and what I will no longer tolerate.
I'm a little weaker in my resolve to stand, to have faith in my broken marriage.
It's because I see my H's actions in a different light and I see myself differently as well.
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Hi rediscover I am sorry to hear about the backlash.
Standing (and defining standing) is a difficult situation.
For me standing means being open to and desiring the restoration of our marriages. For so long as a person cares about their spouse and is open to the possibility of the restoration of their marriage I would say that they are standing.
Ideally of course one should avoid a relationship outside of marriage. The problem with having a relationship is that it complicates ones emotions, and one must be fair to the other person as well. There is the potential for inflicting pain.
However some people find they are incapable of living without intimacy. I would compare it to delivering a baby without anesthesia. While natural childbirth is a good thing, some of us will need an anesthetic because we just can't handle the pain. It is simply to overwhelming. For some of us having a relationship may help ease the pain inflicted upon us by the MLCer. So long as there is full and honest disclosure to the other person that you love your spouse and are committed to them even though they abandoned you I think it would be difficult for me to throw the first stone.This is of course my opinion, and I realize that it may not be shared by many on this board.
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Rediscover, I’m sorry about the backlash.
However some people find they are incapable of living without intimacy. I would compare it to delivering a baby without anesthesia. While natural childbirth is a good thing, some of us will need an anesthetic because we just can't handle the pain. It is simply to overwhelming. For some of us having a relationship may help ease the pain inflicted upon us by the MLCer. So long as there is full and honest disclosure to the other person that you love your spouse and are committed to them even though they abandoned you I think it would be difficult for me to throw the first stone.This is of course my opinion, and I realize that it may not be shared by many on this board.
I agree with this. I'm fine without a relationship but I've had a boyfriend a couple of years ago. It is good to find what we don't won't and what we will no longer tolerat. Just have in mind that, at first, all relationships seem rosy and, normaly, much better than the previous one.
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I guess I may have not explained my emotional attachment very clearly.
I am not having a releationship with the other person. I have known this person for about 17 years and he is a dear friend and will continue to be a dear friend. Our relationship didn't change, we had very honest and open communication about our situation.
Under normal circumstances I would say that I would be opposed to having an intimate relationship outside of marriage. The circumstances are not normal, the marriage is not normal (nor is it a marriage any longer)
My emotions were complicated by my h, not by another person or my own actions. I actually think much more clearly now than I have in almost two years.
We all have to do what is right for our own self and our own situation. Sometimes it doesn't always agree with what others would do.
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I have to say that RivenIN2's description of intimacy during sex was powerful. If someone told me that I don't know how I would respond. That was perfectly beautiful and strong.
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Agreed, Reinventing. I think the stereotype of what sex is for men is that we only focus on one or two areas but I know for me that has never been the case. I love every inch of my W, including her feet, and still feel the same today when I see her in her pajamas or her nightclothes when I pick up or drop off the kids. The physical part is so much more than just sex, at least for me and it would seem other guys as well. Of course I'm sure there are guys out there who do only focus on one thing but why would any woman want them anyway?