Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Thundarr on February 02, 2012, 09:52:00 PM
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I decided to start this thread for all the great people who were regulars on LifeTwo and are used to that free-flowing format. It appears the domain for LifeTwo may be gone for good so I'm thinking we may see several more show up than are already here. OP, Honour, Rider, Moc, Hobo (Trueblue), Confused and Angry, Tigger, STP, BonBon and myself were regular posters there or stopped by from time to time and posted on this single thread that had over 700,000 views. Anyway, this thread is not meant to take away from any of our individual threads but rather to continue the great tradition that was started over there and was ultimately the first oasis in this storm for many of us before finding our way here. So, here goes nothing.
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I should add this thread is in no way meant to be exclusive to my LifeTwo brothers (and sister), but just a way to keep that old thread alive. Anyway, on to my update:
W continues to give me very mixed signals. She called me last night to tell me that D19 forgot to bring the little ones' clothes for school and backpacks and she just got in with them and didn't feel like driving all the way home to get them. I know it's cake eating in a way, but I did want to see the kids last night so I took the clothes to her after I got home. I forgot their backpacks, and D11 started crying because she had homework. At first W scolded her for crying, and then when I said that it was okay and started hugging her W waited a few minutes and then came over and hugged her as well. She was very robotic and acted like she was only hugging her because it was what she was supposed to do. I stayed for about an hour until S7 fell asleep, then I left and hit the Mexican restaurant on the way home for a bite to eat and a margarita. W had thanked me profusely for bringing their clothes and mentioned that I was a great dad and that the kids always miss me when they're over there, so that would explain her finding a way to get me to come over every time she has them. I called her after I left and told her I would bring the backpacks early this morning so that D11 could do her homework before school so she could sleep peacefully.
I took them over about 6:30 this morning and W was very friendly and nice. We were small talking and she brought up the foreclosure situation (I had been dreading approaching her about it). She said she wanted to do whatever we had to in order to keep the kids secure and save their home. I explained about the loan modification and how I would need her to sign the papers too, and she mentioned that she wanted to do a "quit claim" on the house to get her name off of it but I explained that I would need her to stay on it for now in order to save it and she said okay. She said she trusted me and we would talk about it Saturday when she drops the kids off. She was very pleasant and thanked me profusely for bringing their backpacks that early and again said I was a great dad. She's not herself, but I can see her peeking through somewhat. Interestingly, she has not said the word "divorce" in relation to us since early December.
I will be man enough to admit I may well have have been wrong about the old ladies she's been hanging out with. She was talking about them last night when I was over there and I found out that they did NOT leave their H's and break up their families, but rather they were both LBS's. One was married in the 60's and her H left her for another woman in the 90's after 30 years of marriage (sound familiar?) and the other's first H did the same and her most recent H insisted on living in Florida and refused to move back so she D'ed him. W was talking about how hard the two had it although the one lives in an elegant home. She said their H's were real bastards for running off with other women and/ or choosing a place to live over them. I did not reference our sitch, but yes I did have ulterior motives in discussing this. W mentioned again how they were mother figures for her and W REALLY seemed depressed last night. D19 happened to mention last night that W has been apologizing to them lately and as I left last night we were talking about the kids (after she had told me I was a great dad) and I said she loves them so much and that she is a great mommy. She said "I don't know about that. I mean, I have to work and go to school and other things...." and left it at that. I asked her if I was being supportive enough of her and she said yes (wish I hadn't said that) and I told her to let me know if there was any way I could help her be more a part of their lives and she thanked me. I'm grasping at straws as I really want the kids to have a mother, but I'm using my instincts (Intuition maybe) to guide my interactions with her. I left happy and accepting that God has me on a path that I don't know right now and wondering where it will lead me.
Ready and HB's comments to me (on Sassy's thread, check it out) have really resonated with me. Time to my W is not the same as time to me, and the world she is living in is not mine right now. Knowing that takes alot of pressure off of me as I have been concerned about us growing apart during this ordeal and if R would even be possible, but this really makes sense and gives me the odd sense of hope even though HB reminds me that this could be a LONG stretch.
Peace to all, and welcome again to all my LifeTwo brothers!!!!
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Yo T ... good fun for the LT boys now. Only with all the cuss words!
Anyway, I bet the LT site is up and running soon. It appears they lost their domain name by not re-registering it. Googling them takes you to a GoDaddy site offering to sell the domain for as low as $7.99! Same hijack thing happened to my company website a couple of years ago. If you don't put your domain on automatic renewal, there are website domain name pirates that steal your .com and will sell it back to you for a ransom. More of a pain than a financial burden. Cost me $50 bucks to get my domain back. Took about two days to get it back. Such irritating rat bastards!
I think this is going to be a much more dynamic board for all us men. And the additional feedback from the women LBS's is invaluable. Kudos to both you and Bon for leading me back here.
And remember ... The dude abides! 8)
Rider
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Glad to see the life two boys found their way over here! Its been an experience over on this board, nice to get woman's perspectives and other then a select few on L.T. There was only a testosterone driven group! Not saying anything bad about that great group of guys, just nice to have a woman's view on things!
EDIT - OK I am here too but we will not be able to have 700,000 posts on one thread. ;) :) ;) - OLDPILOT
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Not posted here before, just lurking, gutted about the LT site, strange how something like that can give you enough to help you through the day. Hope we can all make it across, but hope LT does return, seems the domain was registered yesterday for another year.... but we don't who did that..... could be anybody.
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Hey Op,
Thundarr is good at numbering the threads. I thought he burned through ten pages pretty quick, I bet this one will to. Hfb
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Hey Thundarr and all-
Thanks for starting this... Yes, I also appreciate all the support from a variety of folks, including all the women LBSers on this board...
So the latest on my sitch is that she realizes that she won't be able to afford the house. Her attorney called mine, and said that she is redrafting the agreement. I am afraid that she is going to ask for more.
I still can't believe that she is doing this.... When I dropped off the kids on Wed., she was acting SO happy, even whistling while she came to the door! She laughed and joked with my S7, all while ignoring me.... I ignored her as well.
I feel it's a mask. Why would anyone be so happy when they are about to lose their house, and the kids will need to adjust to living in a smaller place, and she would be living broke?
Financially, it's a smart decision on her part to sell the house, and I've told her this in the past, that divorcing me is not like just living the status quo without me...
To make things worse, just when I need her support the most, she abandons me.
So back in the crisis of 2008, I made a mistake at work, and I am being called to testify in an arbitration case. A multi million dollar ordeal.... It happens that I will need to fly to the arbitration, immediately after the scheduled D.
She was one person I confided in, and she knows about the concern I had, and how worried I was. I've not told her about this, and feel like I should but I need to realize she is no longer the person she used to be.... She could care less about my problems. After all, she has this emotional turmoil to deal with.
My kids have a performance at school this PM, and she didn't even tell me. My D10 told me only after I happened to ask.
She is not good at this co-parenting thing. Mostly because she tries to avoid me.
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Oh wow, I was just going to head over to LT when I read this. Hmmm. Maybe somene from that funky thread with the "Single women-no kids" thread burned LT. Hmmm.
At any rate, the first forum I ever joined was LT. I believe OP sent me over here...can't even remember since it seems so long ago. At any rate, VERY glad you gentlemen have joined here as there is so much to know and learn and very easily accessible here.
Also, as I wrote to Thundarr, I think it is good for the women here to see how many men get blitzed by their wives MLC...I was ignorant to that until I joined LT long ago. So, we can stand united as LBSers rather than be divided amongst gender lines.
Good job in doing this Thundarr...
Hi to all from LT if I haven't already said so...
Bon
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Welcome Lifetwo friends! For those who have been here and those who are new...you will find a great deal of information and support and we will also learn from your experiences.
I became a member soon after this site started..July 2010 is when I discovered it and I have not ventured onto any other sites except briefly on midlife dimensions. This site has saved me so many times.
It was easier in the early days to stay connected because there were fewer people...I do find that I connect to certain members..perhaps because our situations are similar. I am not familiar with the format of Lifetwo....if you are comfortable, at some point you might like to start your own thread. That allows us to read back on your particular story as well as one place that you can journal and keep track of your own growth.
Anyway.....just wanted to welcome one and all and am looking forward to getting to know some of you better.
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Glad to see you guys. I'll pop in to this thread every once in awhile to see how everyones is doing.
Things are still good for me. Happy to say the blonde is out of my wifes hair (Finally! The front half of her head had been blond since Jul '09 around the start of her EA, and mixed with either blue, purple or pink). She is working a lot more now too. Two years now, our old home has been for sale-hope the buyer sale happens quicker than the foreclosure. Even moreso than in my last update she has reverted to her old self, although some new traits acquired during her MLC still linger.
For the HS people who don't know me, I am a MLC survivor. From bomb drop to reconcile was 11 mos. (Nov '09-Sept '10). There was an OM and the affair went from EA to PA. We separated and lived apart for 7 mos. but with circumstances, determination and playing the game right, it all worked out
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STP ...
Welcome aboard! If you have a way of contacting NJR, invite him over.
So glad to hear you're well on the way back to happiness.
Your insights and encouragement are always very much appreciated. 8)
Rider
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STP - Glad you and your wife are doing well.... Certainly your BD to R is on the short side... Thanks for all your support and encouragement throughout the past year...
Things are certainly easier now than a year ago for me. I remember your words of encouragement in the early days, and they kept me going. I certainly would not wish to relive the early days immediately after BD. I wouldn't wish that on my worse enemy.
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So glad to see so many of our LT brothers on here. I've sent messages out to all the ones I have contact info for. Rover and TEH already know about it and so does HFF. I have Canuck's email somewhere and hopefully someone can contact NJR and any others I'm leaving out. Let's burn this thread up and all have a great SuperBowl weekend!!
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EDIT: The Patriots are going to blow out the weakling Giants. Go Pats!!! - OldPilot
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Glad to see you guys. I'll pop in to this thread every once in awhile to see how everyones is doing.
Things are still good for me. Happy to say the blonde is out of my wifes hair (Finally! The front half of her head had been blond since Jul '09 around the start of her EA, and mixed with either blue, purple or pink). She is working a lot more now too. Two years now, our old home has been for sale-hope the buyer sale happens quicker than the foreclosure. Even moreso than in my last update she has reverted to her old self, although some new traits acquired during her MLC still linger.
For the HS people who don't know me, I am a MLC survivor. From bomb drop to reconcile was 11 mos. (Nov '09-Sept '10). There was an OM and the affair went from EA to PA. We separated and lived apart for 7 mos. but with circumstances, determination and playing the game right, it all worked out
Hello STP; nice to meet you. :)
I'm sorry, but you two are NOT done or even close. You're doing well from what I can see, and your Insight gained is helpful to the ones coming behind you; but there's more to go, and more of the road to walk.
Food for thought, but 11 months in this is NOTHING; your wife went into and is STILL in, a developmental growing process that will continue last from 5 to 7 years, if not longer, or a little shorter; better if longer, because she still has issues to face within that are unique to HER; and her journey has nothing to do with you, and still has everything to do with HER.
I'm sorry if it seems I'm steadily raining on your parade, you two are still NOT out of the woods, just yet; your wife STILL has a LONG way to go before her crisis is done.
You, STP, are considered a "leader" within this particular group, and I can see where Thundarr might get some of his "thinking" he's more near the end, rather than the beginning; and hey, man, you're nowhere close either, Thundarr. :)
Sorry, Thundarr, you DO still need to watch this guy even as he continues to update his situation, and I'm hoping he will; he's way ahead of you; while you still have so much to learn.
For what it's worth, the ending of the affair is NOT even the real beginning of the end of the crisis, from what I can see, she is still showing shades of Replay within herself, judging from the "teenage" hair color; and the slow revert to "old" self.
And, she still has many issues to face within herself. And these are faced in earnest during the final three stages of the crisis..not necessarily in a linear fashion; but they will be faced, or return, until they are.
At this time, from what you've written down at this time, your wife seems to be doing well; and seems to be slowly making her way forward, and her reverting to her "old" self is somewhat helpful; but change in HER is NOT all there is to look at; what about YOU? :)
Some of her changes, for what it's worth, will NOT simply go away; some will remain; and I'm not seeing anything about YOU changing; what have YOU done for yourself to also grow? This is not all about HER; but it also has to do with you, too.
The journey's are connected in ways that aren't always easy to understand; and if what I see offends you, I cannot help that; I can only say what I see.
Thundarr can tell you, I don't pull any punches here, I don't gain anything from being "gentle" AND, I don't have to live your life; but what you said caught my eye, so I read further.
In explanation:
I've seen too many situations who thought it was all over when the affair ended, only to see the crisis return within 3 to 5 years; and the second bout was worse than the first..and often the couple, because the LBS doesn't really understand what happened, end up divorced.... it happened to me and my husband in a different kind of way; it's been documented within my threads from the past two years. if God hadn't been there to help me at that time, I'm not exactly sure what I would have done, either.
If a MLC'er does NOT dig through to the issue/issues and beyond, that have been the keys that have driven their behavior during the crisis, there WILL be a repeat, worse than the last. If the LBS does NOT do the same, as BOTH people must take the SAME journey to wholeness and healing; and on THEIR timetables..well, you can look for recurring bouts of crisis, as the crisis WILL have it's just due, and ALL will be faced, resolved, and eventually healed within BOTH people.
For what it's worth, it really does take a MLC'er a LONG time to come out and change really is called for within BOTH people; not just one, and not just the MLC'er..
Food for thought. :)
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HB- STP got his BD in Nov of 09.... that is over 2 years ago... and throughout the R process there were bumps in the road... have we heard of 'real' returns after about 2 years?
I also think the BD may not be a good measure either because if I had not pushed my stbx to tell me what is wrong - she may not have given me the BD. She has withdrawn, and it's various stages of withdrawal with back and forth movement... There are also MLCers who never leave - so it's hard to know if it's really over.... such is life.
I actually wouldn't mind of the MLCer comes back and has to work on themselves, but are committed to being a spouse.... that's what marriage is about, ups and downs but they don't just give up.
There are things I can work on myself, but with all due respect, I don't believe I have 3 to 5 years of stuff to work on... Maybe naive on my part but I dont believe the MLC journey is much about me. I am not perfect, and have things to improve, but I did not up and destroy my family.
thanks for your thoughts HB.
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For the HS people who don't know me, I am a MLC survivor. From bomb drop to reconcile was 11 mos. (Nov '09-Sept '10). There was an OM and the affair went from EA to PA. We separated and lived apart for 7 mos. but with circumstances, determination and playing the game right, it all worked out
First I will say that I don't know your story, but this brief bit of information here makes me wish to point out something that I believe is important.
Not every affair is a midlife crisis. I am not even convinced that most affairs are midlife crisis. Sometimes an affair is just that.....it's an affair. A midlife crisis is a developmental process that generally last 3-5, or maybe up to 7 years. The affair is simply one symptom of a midlife crisis.
Here are links to a couple of RCR's articles. One is Midlife Crisis Takes Time. The other is MLCers Run Even When the Alienator is Gone. I am putting the link to MLCers Run Even When the Alienator is Gone because we sometimes think that once the affair ends, the MLCer must be done with their crisis. Since the affair is a symptom of the crisis, this is not necessarily true. The MLCer must reach Liminality. It is not a short process to go from the time of bomb drop to Liminality.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_mlc-time.html
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance_mlcer-run-when-alienator-gone.html
And finally, I will post the next piece from RCR's article on Acceptance. Many LBS just simply want the crisis to over with, and I certainly understand that. But that makes speed the goal. Perhaps there is an MLCer or two who does go through the complete MLC process is one or two years, but that would lean very heavily toward the exception, and not the rule. I believe it would be a rare rare case for that to happen, which is why I think RCR recommends to make Acceptance the goal instead of speed.
From the Acceptance article:
"If your goal is speed, it will fail. But most of you will need to learn that through experience. Make your goal Acceptance. It is my wish that you accept the Time reality and make goals within that context. But most of you have the fantasy and hope that you will be the exception, you will change his mind or maybe you doubt it is MLC and therefore believe it will be faster for you. Maybe you are right; exceptions to rules are part of the rules and this is your journey."
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This thread has quickly become an all-star game, with STP and HeartsBlessing both chiming in. It kind of reminds me of when Hulk Hogan first met Ric Flair and Flair had the WCW title with him.
HB, I agree with you on both counts (and you're right about STP being a big influence on me, as are you) but I do have a question about whether or not the return can happen successfully during the crisis. If you're saying 5-7 years then that would be in line with peri and/or a transition but does that whole time have to be crisis? I would gladly endure this with my W rather than having my family broken, and isn't it possible for a crisis to morph into a transition? I know my W's coping skills (or rather lack thereof) contributed to this but I'm unaware of any serious childhood issues. U think her problem is mostly hormonal.
As always, all feedback is appreciated and I mean for this thread to be an open discussion for all so THANK YOU to all my friends for jumping in (waiting on you, Rookie!). I'd even live to see this thread stickied so it can go on for all the LT orphans. Now, about that language restriction and moderation.....
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Hi Hobo,
Bd for me is when your world turns up side down, If I did not discover her EA I would not have started my realization that I had to make changes to myself. I knew things were not well for almost two years before Bd, but I did not know what was wrong. I just kept moving on as if everything was fine. The changes that I have made are minor tweaks and adjustments and ongoing even today, I am a better person now than I was two years ago. Hfb
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HFB- I did the same, but I noticed the withdrawal about 6 to 9 mos before BD. Agree with tweaks and adjustments, it's actions to do or not do... but really... i don't think i need a spiritual journey to find myself etc....
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have we heard of 'real' returns after about 2 years?
Is a real return after 2 years possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. A lot of times we put reconnection and reconciliation in the same sentence. They are two different things.
There are also MLCers who never leave
Rare. Very rare.
I actually wouldn't mind of the MLCer comes back and has to work on themselves, but are committed to being a spouse.... that's what marriage is about, ups and downs but they don't just give up.
MLC is a journey they must do alone. RCR and Conway both write about this. MLCers cannot work on themselves and be committed to a marriage, or it wouldn't be MLC.
There are things I can work on myself, but with all due respect, I don't believe I have 3 to 5 years of stuff to work on... Maybe naive on my part but I dont believe the MLC journey is much about me.
You are correct. MLC is not about you.
I did not up and destroy my family.
This is among the most common phrases I've hard LBS use. MLC is a very very difficult thing to deal with. Like RCR says, learning about MLC and it's root causes can be very important for acceptance and understanding.
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I would gladly endure this with my W rather than having my family broken
MLC is a journey they must do alone. I believe RCR calls it a journey of self discovery. If they seek the help of the spouse, it's probably not MLC.
and isn't it possible for a crisis to morph into a transition?
No. I like Conway's differentiation of a crisis and a transition. A crisis happens when the MLCers behavior goes against the core values they have long held. Once this happens, it is impossible for it to turn into a transition because it's already a crisis.
I know my W's coping skills (or rather lack thereof) contributed to this but I'm unaware of any serious childhood issues.
Where do you think her lack of coping skills originates? Coping skills....or lack thereof....IS a childhood issue.
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Hi All, I asked myself recently 'what's changed in me?' Wondering why I felt so much more at ease. ::) It is acceptance. I now view OW as more of a fixture in the apt H ran to in an effort to get away from me. My mouth and body language were too much for someone having an identity crisis.
I can't even relate to 'not knowing what I want' never mind 'not knowing who I am' :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
They'll figure it out. If we're quiet enough so they can think of it. ??? :P
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Thundarr, just for the record, I did not come into this thread to challenge you or anyone else.
This thread has quickly become an all-star game, with STP and HeartsBlessing both chiming in. It kind of reminds me of when Hulk Hogan first met Ric Flair and Flair had the WCW title with him.
I don't recall signing up for something like this...but...moving right along.
HB, I agree with you on both counts (and you're right about STP being a big influence on me, as are you) but I do have a question about whether or not the return can happen successfully during the crisis. If you're saying 5-7 years then that would be in line with peri and/or a transition but does that whole time have to be crisis? I would gladly endure this with my W rather than having my family broken, and isn't it possible for a crisis to morph into a transition? I know my W's coping skills (or rather lack thereof) contributed to this but I'm unaware of any serious childhood issues. U think her problem is mostly hormonal.
NO, a crisis can NOT "morph" into a Transition, only a Transition can "morph" into a crisis...you only get ONE chance to come through without making the mistakes that you cannot take back, or undo.
Once a Transitioner crosses the line into having an affair, doing drugs, etc...their Transition then becomes a crisis and the mistakes they are making complicates the situation worse for THEM; as they are hurting THEMSELVES, and their guilt, shame, etc. increases....and it adds TIME onto what they are enduring; because they inflict deeper self wounds within.
They RUN away because they cannot take the pressure within, and regardless if they leave physically or not, they will STILL leave emotionally; they are LOST, to themselves AND their spouses until THEY figure themselves out.
A return, whether "early" or not, as you've already seen within various threads over time, CAN happen successfully during the crisis, but the crisis itself is still NOT over until ALL the issues are faced within that contributed to and helped caused it; and these issues reside within the MLC'er.
In regards to hormonal problems it is always possible to go through Menopause AND STILL have a MLC/MLT; as these are NOT the same type of events......the Menopause is physical and due to hormonal imbalances/changes, the MLT/MLC is EMOTIONAL with contributing chemical changes within the brain that can and will "mask" various mental illnesses...these are considered TWO complete separate events for people, as they were for me, too...AND my husband, when he went through.
I would suggest you RESEARCH for your further answers IF you wish them.
Thundarr's very first thread is here:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1408.0 And it leads on to his next thread, and his next thread..you can read for yourself what I and others have said to him...
Thundarr, apparently, you have quickly forgotten, that given a little bit of time, I can find the posts I wrote that REFUTE your saying I said her problem was mostly hormonal....I did NOT say it was mostly that; in fact, I said this within the very first thread you wrote:
Re: My MLC story
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2011, 02:12:07 AM »
Hello Thundarr,
Here I am to throw yet another spin/perspective on this life's trial that is called MLC. :)
Sorry to see you here; but glad you made it in; hold on for the ride as it's one of a lifetime that NO one wants to take, deal with, go through, but the end will come, although it takes time.
Ready will make a great mentor for you; he's a good man, a wise man; and one who really does know his stuff. :)
The very first thing you need to know is this: there is STILL hope as long as you love your wife, and are willing to stand for your marriage..with that said, prepare to let go of your wife, and commend her into the hands of the Lord, because there is NOTHING you can do for her right now...she is on a journey that you can NOT help her with...you can only help YOURSELF.
One thing that I see clearly is the fact that your wife IS already deep within the tunnel of MLC; has been there for some time. She entered LONG before the divorce was filed and before your Bomb Drop was experienced.
An MLC'er, based on all cases I've seen in my own experience, and I've seen many, begins the process of entry into the MLC tunnel from the very FIRST stage which is Denial; Anger drives them even further within..and they will see the FIRST issue they will face not long before the beginning of Replay...it is usually the most painful event that has happened within their life, and it's "shown" first while they still have the strength to begin to face it.
Unfortunately, the ground has also been laid for their running away; and because they really can't face themselves, most of them run away, using what is known as "running behaviors" that will transform what starts as a Transition into a CRISIS. These running behaviors, which are listed within the stages of MLC that I wrote, CAN, but don't always, include the MLC affair in order for them to try to escape and avoid themselves, as this is what the crisis is all about; facing themselves, and the issues within themselves.
In order for them to navigate successfully through, emerging whole and healed, they must face, resolve, and settle, ALL issues within themselves, including the aspects of each issue; these will show as individual "children" within themselves.
In short, as children, trauma was experienced, and because of this trauma, a "piece" of the psyche is "broken" off deep within. Because, as children, no one has the necessary life "tools" to deal with traumatic experience, these are stored for a later time, resurfacing as individual issues, evidencing as individual "children" during the Transition or Crisis that comes about.
These can be seen clearly as childish behavior is seen within the MLC'er; as they are struggling with an issue at hand within, or they can be even rebelling in a way they may not have been able to when they endured whatever traumatic experience or even multiple experiences, they had faced within their childhood...there may be one or many children that makes an appearance; that is up to and within the individual person.
Even I never knew just how many "children" had resided within my husband for certain; although I saw three, and I truly cannot remember just how many evidenced within me, but once each "child" is faced, resolved, and settled within, is reintegrates itself back into the psyche never to be seen again.
They can show up at any time, although they are NOT present the entire time of crisis/transition. If they did, the MLC'er could NOT function at all, but it's not uncommon to see the these "children" come and go as often as within minutes or even seconds...I can remember rubbing my eyes at one point, as I saw all three AND my husband flash through his eyes in less than five minutes at one point. Our 15 year old son saw them too, so I KNOW I wasn't crazy or "seeing things".
You're already seeing "rebellion" tendencies within her that evidence as black and white bipolar symptoms, she's at one extreme or the other, and it's confusing to her, but she's also confused, as like it or not, the typical MLC'er IS aware of what they are doing when they are doing it, but their minds are SO confused, and filled with fog they don't know which end is up half the time.
They truly are like a ship within the fog missing a compass, as direction means nothing to them for a time, they are LOST, and the MLC Mothership has come and taken the stable spouse you once knew to MLC Land, and there's no telling when they will return, IF, indeed, they do return.
As long as she continues to be angry; that means two things, she is still trying to keep the 'demons' within her, if you will, at bay from herself, as I suspect she's been already seen this first most painful issue, and this has terrified her, which ALSO comes out in anger. This is helping to fuel her running actions, her comments about running out of time is evidence of continuing denial, her lawyer "friend" that may or not become a PA for her is only a symptom, NOT the cause. It also means that she's got one foot in Anger, and one in Replay; and she is STILL trying to stay in Denial of it all.
MLC involves an emotional and spiritual struggle within the person going through, it's a growing time within the individual in question. They are at odds within in every way imaginable, as NOTHING makes them feel better, and everything they try will just make them feel worse, and even worse than that, they are looking to OUTSIDE sources to validate or even "fix" them, when honestly, the struggles, the answers, and the issues that need facing are contained WITHIN themselves..
This journey can take 5 to 7 years, some longer, some shorter, and the coming through is up to the individual going through, not anyone or anything else in the way of "outside" factors.
Even you know, as a therapist who counsels people in whatever aspect you counsel them in, that it takes TIME to reach more stable ground; and this is even true of MLC.
You were never prepared for this, as NO counselor/therapist I have ever encountered has ever really acknowledged MLC as a true disorder, IF you could even call it that. MLC has symptoms of a great many psychiatric disorders, and it's "mask" can change from one minute to the next, if not one day to the next.
NO MLC'er will go to counseling/therapy, or can even be helped by it; they don't think THEY have the problem, they think their Left Behind Spouse, and everyone else who doesn't agree with them has the problem...to acknowledge they have a problem means they must admit they are "flawed" in some way; and since they cannot accept themselves, much less face themselves while they are within the Tunnel, that's NOT going to happen.
They DON'T think THEY need help at all; and they don't WANT help...again, they are convinced that THEY don't have a problem...everyone else DOES.
From an occupational standpoint, as you well know, even counseling/therapy takes time, and one's journey to wholeness and healing as a result of said counseling/therapy takes time, to make a "parallel" here.
It's something to think about....I saw your comment about wishing you could be placed in "stasis" or "coma" until she came through, and though I really do understand how you feel, I'm sorry, it doesn't work like that, as I can well tell you....
I spent 7 1/2 years in a Mid Life Transition, this was the ONLY time I actually got to "miss" anything of my husband's two bouts of crisis, as I missed MOST of that second bout. This 7 1/2 years was MY time spent in the crucible/tunnel/transition, it overlapped on each end, TWO bouts of crisis my husband went through, simply because he did NOT face his issues in FULL within the first round, and set himself up for a SECOND round involving one last issue that had been the FIRST issue he'd faced, but, instead, tried to set it aside. The crisis demands COMPLETENESS, and if it is NOT completed it WILL return as a recurring bout of crisis, or even as a whole other tunnel, depending on what's involved, what factors are in play.
I faced every last issue within my journey within the tunnel, the FIRST time I went through, NOT because I was a 'better' person, but because within me, I somehow KNEW to get out, I had to get through, and every BIT of it had to be completed...and it was...I didn't suffer a recurring bout of crisis, but I found out that he was right in the middle of this secondary bout just after I passed out of the final healing phase of my Transition.
I don't mince words when I say we spent 11 years all told within this, and this was because of what my husband DIDN'T do that he was supposed to do; which was face every last one of his issues in full....and this was also further evidence that the journey within MLC; depended upon my HUSBAND as an individual; just as it's up to EACH INDIVIDUAL to complete their journey in FULL.
The comment OP makes that you didn't break her therefore you can't fix her, is right on target, because she must fix HERSELF...there is NOTHING you can do for her, to her, or with her....you can't even "reason" with her, it's like talking to a brick wall that won't move, bend, or give way.
And the more you try to reason with her, the worse things will get, as again, like your Priest said, she's on a journey to find herself, but it's HER journey, NOT yours....she has put you on a path that was NOT of your own making, therefore this makes this journey ALL about you...just as her crisis is ALL about her.
In other words, the two of you are on separate paths at this time; she's on her path, you are on yours. The hope is that eventually the twain shall meet and merge, but if it happens it won't happen until later in the crisis, when some or most of her issues are resolved within herself.
At this time, I will throw in a word of caution: If you continue trying to reason with her, or continue to argue with her, you may lose her completely, but then you may lose her anyway, as the crisis holds no guarantees of positive outcome...the only hope you have are the changes you've already started within, and you'll need to continue making these.
The only person you can control in this life is YOURSELF, and I speak from experience, when I say this was the FIRST lesson I ever learned within his MLC.
That same lesson socked home even further when I was navigating the Transition(that did NOT become a crisis for me) that was triggered by my husband's crisis....it takes time to complete this, if the individual comes through, and once through, the whole and healed individual is NOT the same person they were going in...change sweeps through them slowly....and they suffer deep pain and angst, as well as the confusion and fog I spoke of earlier in my post.
I do not post these things just to hear myself talk; I had the experience of counseling on MLC years ago during the first bout my husband and I went through, left after he exited that first bout, and yes, he did go all the way through, coming out of Acceptance into the Settling Down Process. which was interrupted two years later by his last and final issue that he tried to set aside without facing....in the meantime, I had left the other board I started with, having already gone into the TUNNEL myself of the Mid Life Transition; and my memories disappeared for a long time.
Once I found he was in the throes of this secondary bout of crisis based on his last painful issue, and after getting very angry about it, then deciding I had NOTHING to lose, and everything to gain by finishing what was started so long ago, I prepared to go through this last with him. My memories from before, were restored by the Lord, and returned to post once again only this time on this board.
My own journey was complete, I was whole and healed; all of the tools I had learned to deal with the next part of my life were in place..all that was left was my husband finishing. He was an extremely stubborn man, and the issue that was holding him back? The Issue was of his parent's divorce when he was age 7, he was unable to get past some aspects of that issue, although he had faced some of them, but he was stuck in full rebellion against himself, AND me.
Last year, he fell and broke his ankle, this was the catalyst for his second exit, as he was brought down in this way, and I watched him make his way across. He made it out earlier this year, and I consider this journey worth EVERY step made to get to the place we're in...neither one of us came out the same; we are better people than we were going in..as change, growth, and becoming took hold of not just one of us, but BOTH of us.
I could have left him high and dry at ANY time, just as quickly as he could have left me the same way; the choice was mine, it was always mine, just as it was always his choice, too. But, I did NOT leave him; you do NOT leave your partner during the fire, as paraphrased from the movie "Fire Proof".
I had also gained a new respect for him when he did not leave me as I was going through my Transition. From what I remember, he got back his emotional treatment of me in spades, but I did NOTHING to dishonor either one of us, though I wanted to and wanted to run away forever, amongst other things; I did nothing but face myself continuously during that time, I did NOT and do NOT want to go through this again.....I have experienced the deep, ripping, pain of Transition, and it's TERRIBLE, and gut wrenching at times, as well as seeming to be never ending.
It was not all good, nor was it all bad, but it was the journey of a lifetime.
This is NOT an easy journey, it's NOT for the faint of heart; but I will say this for the benefit of all....you CAN end this any time you choose, you always have that choice, but understand that should you decide to find another partner, you WILL go through this again with another, or even with your current spouse, as the learning won't be denied, we recycle what we don't learn, and come right back to it. It WILL get done, taking longer, and be that much harder; I know.....I've been there the WHOLE way, and then some.
I didn't have to cycle back through, but my HUSBAND had to; and it did, indeed, take LONGER, was that much HARDER on him...and he only faced the ONE issue that second time...I can't even imagine what it's like for the couples whose MLC spouse had more than that.
The Lord worked His Will throughout within BOTH of our lives, and I also see that Ready mentions the Lord in his writings..you should NEVER forget that He should always be the frontrunner of your life...develop your relationship with Him, develop that inner voice within that doesn't shout; that's also called your Intuition..learn to let go and let God work within your situation as a whole.
Learn to control what you can, let go of what you cannot; trust the Lord to know the difference, and put HIM first in your life, because in the longer run, HE knows the situation, and is more than capable of restoring your marriage; yet, you have your ongoing work to do while He does His...many things must come to pass before this Crisis resolves in which ever way it's going to resolve.
Yet, it's NOT what you're facing, it's the ATTITUDE you learn to face it with that counts the most...and your growth, change, and what you will become as a result is more important than your marital status, so again, let her go, and work on yourself....you can do nothing for her at this time....concentrate on becoming the best man you can be for yourself, and your family...that is what is really important, not what your wife is doing/not doing.
Take your journey, work on yourself; learn about your life, above all, learn about yourself.
Your wife is on her journey, you are on yours, you can do nothing about hers, but you can do something about yours.
I hope this helps. :)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 02:15:38 AM by HeartsBlessing »
And within this one, as well:
Hello Thundarr,
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Hey HB - You certainly are a prolific typist!! LOL!
LOLOLOLOLOL!! Hey, dude, I "resemble" that remark, you got a little over three hours of my time last night!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!
It's actually quite heartening for me to read the opening joke in your post, and I'm good natured enough to take ribbing from anyone....I wax on quite long sometimes, but the information is what's important, not so much the length....and to offset the length, I give INFORMATION, as I see it. :)
Thanks for the laugh, I needed that this morning; now, I KNOW for sure you'll be OK. :) Some people, believe it or not, wouldn't have said something like that to me this early on in their journeys.....I think some of them are intimidated by me to a certain extent; not realizing I'm just as human as the rest, and I, too, get a kick out of jokes that I perceive directed toward me; and there have been times when some of the LBS' have written some hilarious things in regards to their MLC spouse; including some things they'd like to do to them.
Of course, I KNOW, they wouldn't do some of the outrageous things they've posted for the sake of humor, and I also know each one does still love their MLC spouse...., but I also remember some of the stupid things he did, and all the times I wanted wring his neck, not to mention ring his bell a few times, LOL!!
You'll see, as time goes on, the incredibly stupid things a MLC'er can and will do, and the lengths they will go to to cover up what has ALREADY been UNCOVERED is truly laughable, as they really do NOT realize they haven't hid ONE thing from anyone, only exposed themselves more; like children who try to lie, telling more and more to cover, until eventually either the truth comes out, or they stop doing what they are doing and simply say nothing further....and due to their crisis induced fog, they have NO clue what they are doing.......and it really does make it laughable at times, as I found myself laughing at various things he did, even as he lied, denied, threatened, etc.
And the laughing I did, was in NO means intended to disrespect my husband in any way; I targeted then, and I target now, ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR, as I learned, too, to separate the behavior and actions from the person doing them, still love the person, but hate the behavior, and it CAN be done, I succeeded in doing it......detaching and distancing from all of it.
On the other hand, I have a really good sense of humor in regards to myself, and I suffer NO illusions within myself.....what you see is what you get in a "prolific typist" sense! :) Lots of words to read, but hopefully there is always SUBSTANCE, and something you can bite into and learn from within a literary sense. :) It is much better than saying NOTHING the whole time! LOL!!
I'm glad you were willing to read all of that, and I'm glad that I didn't "lose" you in all the 'strings' I was pulling together to explain myself. And I write literal strings of various aspects tied together. :)
I always have a deep desire to be understood, and I do answer questions when people don't understand, and I will go out of my way to help someone gain understanding; I'm guessing that is one of the biggest aspects people tend to love about me, LOL!! If I'm remembered for anything when I leave this earth, it will be for the fact that I wrote LONG posts with so MUCH information you could choke on it, LOL!!!
All jokes aside, I still remember how it is, and how it was....my learning ran into some very deep aspects during my husband's MLC; and no matter how I may have come across a little earlier in your thread, I empathize more deeply than you know.....yet, on the other hand, I also know, that clear thinking leads to better functioning; and sometimes getting there involves an occasional kick in the britches, which, I KNOW you didn't get in my LAST post....
I got MY butt kicked way early, too....and believe it or not, the very thought that someone thought(OK, KNEW) I was falling down the proverbial rabbit's hole, made me mad, then madder, then even madder than that, and my anger started bringing clarity one piece at a time to my mind....and as the pieces started coming together within the first three months, a picture came I didn't want to see....that was "Reality 101"..the truth of life as it stood, currently.
I was forced to look at it again, and again....and when I wouldn't stop crying people would say things to me designed to get me out of my pity party, and back into life...and it helped for awhile, I needed this....but when I "really" got it was when I began to calm down on my misery; especially as I realized that no matter what I did, it wouldn't change one thing about the situation, my husband was STILL in MLC. And MLC was and is a process, and processes, once started really do NEED to finish. :)
But even that first realization took time, as it seemed for everything I saw, there was ANOTHER question, and some questions were asked more than once, because there were SO many things I didn't understand. I was deeply discouraged at first, still cycling some; but that aspect, takes time to get past, as cycling back and forth, swinging like a pendulum etc...is honestly normal to do...even long after you "get it".
I remembered these things as I wrote to you.
But there was one post I'd written where I actually thought I may have gone a little too far, even for me; as one of your latter posts, afterward, especially the day you'd helped her move out, frightened me out of my wits, and I'm not easily startled or even scared. Something flashed at me off that particular post of yours, causing me to be very uncertain about what your intentions toward yourself were at that point in time.
I had a thyroidectomy not quite two weeks ago, due to large nodules, and an enlarged thyroid, that had caused Hyperthyroidism to develop within me, and I'm still not quite up to par..and a few things I can "normally" do are missing at the moment as everything I contain within in the way of energy is helping to speed my physical healing...so, some of what I'm doing now is guesswork, but not all of it, because when the Lord really needs something done, something written or something said, He'll intervene, giving me what I need right then..and He needed me to stay here that night and watch what was going on.
I'd seen this before; and all LBS' in early days of crisis carry these aspects to varying degrees...the pain is deep, you do, indeed, wish to die, the depression takes hold, and hopelessness seems to a way of life for this time. Any shred of hope is grabbed onto and anything that threatens to take away from hope is lashed out at.
I stayed nearly all night; watching, and posting, and praying that something either I or someone posted would get to you, and help you out of the pit you had fallen in at that point, and I prayed you wouldn't do what I nearly did when it was me, so long ago........you were in that kind of mindset...and believe it or not, this is VERY common within the early days of the crisis.
I can't explain it, exactly, but I experienced a "push" from Him that night to simply wait, watch and post; and whatever I did, to "keep" you with us..and I remember thinking, this is a messageboard, I can't "hold" somebody if they don't wish to stay, the hour was late and everything else, besides the fact we are all strangers to you, that sort of thing....but the Lord pointed out something that I heard loud and clear.
He said "He wants to know he's not alone"...and that was all, I needed to know for that time, so I tossed out posts, even if they didn't seem to be "finished", as I knew I don't show online..my preference, but as I kept putting a post or so out there, you still knew I was there, but I wasn't the only one here that night, and I knew that, too.
I stayed that until the Lord let me know that it was OK to let go, at least for that time and go to bed, the "danger" that had existed for that time, if you will, was past.....I don't know everything; but sometimes I know a little bit. The dead of the night is a prime time for one's thoughts to get away with them...been there, too...but when He prompts me like that for ANY reason, I pay strict attention, and do what I'm told to do.
There is a purpose for you in this, past this...and it's meant for you to go through this process..and you will be just fine, given time, and the various aspects you'll face going forward.
And, too, I had a good idea of what you had been before this happened, based on your post and a sense I get off each individual person; you're a good caring man, with good emotional strength within; and you do have a fairly decent amount of self esteem, and self confidence; that comes from knowing yourself fairly well(just didn't know ya had some more to learn, right?), and your devotion to your family, including your wife is solid...it was this beforehand,, and to some extent, you're still devoted to your wife, in spite of her crisis.
Don't lose your strength, you've a great deal of it to your credit. :) I'm finished my observation of you.
You're doing MUCH better today it seems, though nothing has changed for the moment in your situation, but as time goes on you'll continue to do even MORE better; these moments DO pass, I promise, having been there, too. :)
In the reading of your post to me, I see a "lightbulb" clicking on, and you've gotten a most important point out of that post, the SIMILARITY between the MLC'er and LBS' two journeys...
You would NOT believe the arguments and controversies I have started with that one subject, especially years ago, when I was just a little younger, as people missed that connection again, and again, and I kept patiently pointing it out.
Most LBS often felt I was comparing them TO the MLC'er when you don't compare INDIVIDUAL people with each other, that would be like apples and oranges, within the various differences there is NO comparison; you just point out the similarities of the issues within each person...and dang, here I go again writing long...you poor man, if you die before coming through your wife's MLC, it will be because I "informationed" you to DEATH with what "little" I know, LOL!!
Oh, and not to mention the arguments I also get in regards to the part each person played in the breakdown of their marriage...people think because they didn't argue things were fine, when they couldn't have been farther from the truth, conflict, when engaged in constructively is actually good for the marriage, as it clears the air, brings out whatever current issue is brewing between the partners, and helps them push the barriers between them, and can actually help them come closer to each other as they resolve various problems and disagreements between them, in that process it actually helps them reach a deeper level of intimacy; their connection strengthened even more.
It is NOT a good sign if people NEVER argue or haven't argued within their marriage at all, and it is amazing this same sign has appeared again and again in various situations, as that tells me people didn't feel "free" to express themselves to their spouse...fearing they would be ridiculed or shut out by their spouse....OR that one or even both partners, were and are "conflict avoiders" who would do ANYTHING to avoid conflict.....and so, any problems they had during the marriage beforehand, actually, grew bigger, because they weren't resolved..you can't resolve something if you aren't willing to speak of it, and then take steps to help work it out with the other, as conflict can lead to resolution.
Of course you can't "make" someone listen to you, heed you, or help you work it out, but whatever you wish to have in your marriage, it is your responsibility to ASK for it..and if you perceive you aren't being listened to, "scream" louder until you get the attention of your partner...
Of course, we know that doesn't work in the deep throes of MLC, but this comes during reconciliation, and as the marriage rebuilds from scratch once again...it's part of the changes to acquire better communication skills, and to be willing to bring up what bothers you, EVEN if your partner gets angry with you...remember, when one gets angry, it is because something/some issue/button pushed, in them has responded to what you say/bring up, and the anger really has NOTHING to do with you and everything to do with them. But also remember if people get angry, anger often brings clarity, and as resolution comes, it brings healing in various aspects. :)
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Thank you for the great insights and I hope others benefit from reading through it as well. I do plan to go back and look it over from time to time as I start to accept the irrational along with the rational. It really is mind-numbing trying to comprehend everything that's going on.
That it is, and MLC is really, really confusing in SO many aspects; I have often tried to bring a more "understanding" friendly explanation to the table of the various aspects of the crisis...it's confusing enough that you are within as the one who has been "left behind" so to speak, mainly because you are the LAST to know something is wrong, therefore, you start out this way.
But, there will come a time, Thundarr, when you will draw ahead, and in many ways, you already ARE ahead, as you have a wealth of information at your fingertips within the various posts of everyone here. So, take it in a little at a time, and take your time; time is what you have to work with, use it wisely.
Your counseling training, once you are able step outside your own situation at a later time, can actually help you understand so much more from various aspects...and this is coming from someone who has NO formal training at all, LOL!! A large bit of my knowledge came from research, what the Lord was showing me, and from the various situations He walked me through...THEN He would send me to the right places to figure what it was I had done..to gather the correct terms, if you will, so I could teach others what I had learned.
Some of this is from human nature, observations, and my own situation...NOT everything I learned was gained from my situation, some of it was learned from helping others over time; offline and online. :) I learned as I went along, and you will, too.
And, when you don't understand something, ALWAYS ask questions, questions are good, and the only dumb question was the one you didn't ask. :) If you don't ask, you won't know. :)
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I do have one question, though, and that is isn't it entirely probable that she would be going through this regardless of who she married? Not taking responsibility off of me, but that was my understanding. Thanks!
I didn't see what you were saying as trying to take any responsibility off yourself...I asked the SAME question at one point. :)
And, I've passed on the answer in the SAME way it was given to me, many times for understanding purposes.
The answer is YES, she would have gone through this, regardless of WHOM she had married, OR even if she had NOT married at all; this is not something that would have been stopped or avoided by having married someone else.
For what it's worth, there is NOTHING you could have done to stop this from happening, nothing at all.
The crisis is triggered by the individual issues within each individual; not so much circumstances although circumstances did also within the time before, contribute their own aspects, and each person is unique in what issues they contain within, this circling back to their childhoods, etc.
So, in closing, it really wouldn't have mattered if she'd married or not...this was STILL set to happen, and at the time it did, regardless.
I hope this helps you, my friend. :)
Take care. :)
Remember the above??? :)
As always, all feedback is appreciated and I mean for this thread to be an open discussion for all so THANK YOU to all my friends for jumping in (waiting on you, Rookie!). I'd even live to see this thread stickied so it can go on for all the LT orphans. Now, about that language restriction and moderation.....
Foul language is very disrespectful to others, and the moderation is designed to make the board flow more smoothly like it needs to; without slowing it down to a crawl; that's why threads are limited to 10 pages.
I'm going to say one last thing:
HFB- I did the same, but I noticed the withdrawal about 6 to 9 mos before BD. Agree with tweaks and adjustments, it's actions to do or not do... but really... i don't think i need a spiritual journey to find myself etc....
That is YOUR choice, Hobo, no one can MAKE you do what you don't wish to do. I only offer the tools; I don't force people to do anything.
With all due respect, you say the same things other people say when they first arrive; but, as time goes on, you'll find that CHANGES will also need to be made within you, or your situation will NOT move forward, or IF it moves in any direction, it will be in a negative way....
Change was begun the day the MLC spouse dropped the bomb on the LBS, and it will finish or NOT finish; one way or the other. Life as you once knew it, will NEVER be the same; nor will it ever return to what it was.
For what it's worth, you can take it or leave it, just like anyone else has that option. :)
All food for thought.
Take care of yourselves. :)
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Wow HB,
Great post but I REALLY think you misunderstood me on a couple things. First off, I never meant to imply any kind of conflict whatsoever and was just pointing out how great it was having so many leaders on this thread. As far as Hogan and Flair. (spoiler alert) wrestling is fake so I see that like a movie with two major stars. Again, I think you completely misunderstood me.
Secondly, I never said that the hormonal part came from you. Even though I'm typing this in my phone, I don't understand how you read it that way. I was just saying I don't know of major childhood issues in my W, but DGU already pointed out what should have been obvious to me
So, peace to everyone and let's move along!!
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Forgot to add that I mentioned the language filter due to the fact that LT was unmoderated and everyone could say whatever they wanted. I really would like to see this thread stickier as an homage to LT but I understand there are limitations. I was only half serious regardless so no worries!!
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Cheers to all the LifeTwo buddies...and my HS LBS brothers and sisters. Thanks Thundarr for starting this up and good to see (sorry for the sitches of course) some of you jumping on board here. Dang man, you ruined my total image of wrestling. Now I feel like a kid who just found out that the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause is not real. Real downer dude...LOL.
HB, can't wait to hear your 2x4s for us as I know we sometimes all need them. Your words ran true to me regarding STP and I forget that reconciliation is an agreement verbal and with action that true mending is occurring. In your opinion is this true for both male LBS and female LBS? I am wondering as when you see comments of true reconciliation via this board mostly that it seems the male LBS is overwhelmingly sorry, remorseful, apologetic, willing to do anything to obtain trust. As I know that my wife is probably closer to the reconnection (and no, I truly don't watch to see what stage she is in) and knowing her all these years, my lovely wife has RARELY EVER apologized for ANYTHING. She herself (along with her father and brother) will tell you that it makes you look weak, no credibility. I have probably heard under a handful of times her say "I am sorry for blah blah blah" and I felt genuine remorse coming from her. Of course this is YEARS after the incident and I have completely forgotten and gotten over the hurt. I can assume this will be the same once I let go of it all. Problem is...the MLCer lives with me which makes me fuel for her depression.
Anyways, I am still wearing the crisis and figuring out more each day from reading here, my own journey and how I got to be who I am. I have to figure out what parts of those need to change, and what parts of those I am content with.
Peace and praying for all MLCers and especially LBSers!
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HB- STP got his BD in Nov of 09.... that is over 2 years ago... and throughout the R process there were bumps in the road... have we heard of 'real' returns after about 2 years?
Sorry, I missed this, Hobo....sometimes when writing, I miss stuff.
Well, it can happen that way; but again, the journey itself depends upon the MLC'er, but even after they return, if the changes in the LBS aren't made, the MLC'er CAN run once again....the journey's are connected in ways that are hard to understand.
I also think the BD may not be a good measure either because if I had not pushed my stbx to tell me what is wrong - she may not have given me the BD. She has withdrawn, and it's various stages of withdrawal with back and forth movement... There are also MLCers who never leave - so it's hard to know if it's really over.... such is life.
I'm sorry, sir, but even if you hadn't pushed her, you would have still gotten some kind of indication directly from her ; and from what you'd said, I think you were already suspecting something was wrong, anyway...either way, you'd still have been BD'd.
I busted mine in pornography, THEN discovered an affair; how's THAT for a BD...I KNEW something was wrong, but wasn't sure what, and when I left mine alone, he took it to mean I didn't care about him anymore, no kidding.
Mine was also a truckdriver; but never moved out, yet, throughout, I took the time to figure out where the stages started, where they approximately ended, and I ended up writing everything down as I was going through it.
I learned more as we ended up in a recurring bout of crisis, I didn't know was going to happen, as well as endured a Transition myself; honestly, my husband knew something was wrong, and did ask me questions from time to time; and he PUSHED me hard for a resolution, which actually pushed my Transition out FARTHER in time....just as when I pushed him, I caused him to take longer in his processing.
I think everybody understands that life continues to have its share of problems even after the crisis is past; and the only indicator to really know you're past it completely, is the "knowing" and "surety" the two of you have of each other afterward, as the changes you will both endure, and come to understand take place within the both of you.
One of the resolving factors of the crisis is the readiness of the MLC'er to face themselves in full; and they are the only ones who can do that, and if they don't, you, as the LBS are called upon to hold them to accountability; with NO fear within yourselves of "losing" them or otherwise.
You are right you did NOT cause this; but there are various factors I write about considering each person has their contribution to the breakdown of the marriage...and these contributions on the individual sides needs to be examined by both people.
I did NOT sit around making this stuff up; I can promise you that much; I have been in this for YEARS; and I'd gathered more and more information over this time, and wrote it all out for various people to consider.
In the early years, I, like I watched Thundarr do for some time after he arrived here, spent a whole lot of TIME, wasted or otherwise, looking for a loophole, a "quick fix", something to speed this along, and found NOTHING, or I would have already revealed the magic bullet for this.
An individual's journey is just that, up to the INDIVIDUAL, not anyone else....and within my copied first post to Thundarr, I lay out what I know and have learned in as much of a nutshell as possible.
I actually wouldn't mind of the MLCer comes back and has to work on themselves, but are committed to being a spouse.... that's what marriage is about, ups and downs but they don't just give up.
This is where the journey becomes more difficult to understand; as it is an emotional and spiritual battle within, not a physical "being able to allow an outside source to fix it" kind....you learn to let go, and allow your MLC spouse to work on themselves, and do what they need to do for themselves, while you learn to deal with yourselves on the same type level.
There are things I can work on myself, but with all due respect, I don't believe I have 3 to 5 years of stuff to work on...
If you were totally honest with yourself, you have more to work on than you think...but that's not for me to begin to "shrink" you...I often ask people various questions to make them think; but until they choose to see themselves in a different light, I could talk until I was blue in the face, and still wouldn't be able to get through. :)
I could ask you many questions, give you many answers, and you might still see yourself as one who does NOT need any work on himself...and that's perfectly all right; but on the other hand, and I don't beat around the bush about this...I haven't seen ONE person that did NOT need any further work to improve themselves; and those who say they don't need work..well, you do get the picture, considering your next statement.
Maybe naive on my part but I dont believe the MLC journey is much about me. I am not perfect, and have things to improve, but I did not up and destroy my family.
Her journey is about her, but your journey is about you; when she went into her crisis, and put you upon this path that was not of her own making, she did make it about you, just as her journey is certainly about her.
I understand completely your statement considering you didn't destroy your family; but you know what, I didn't destroy mine, either; but I still had to figure out what it was within myself that contributed to the breakdown of my marriage; and I did find many things I needed to work on to improve myself.
I had lay down my PRIDE; and stop pointing fingers just at my husband...yet, as my journey commenced, believe it or not, it eventually moved from myself, led to him, and even led to us as a couple, as the further psychological implications I write of now, began to dawn on me in a more clear way...but this took time to figure out on my own, not to mention what I began to see in other people's situations back in the early 2000's.
I'm not an Einstein; nor do I consider myself a very smart person; but once I saw the various links, I began recording various aspects that eventually also turned into the stages I wrote.
The lessons I learned, I wrote them down as I was learning them; AND , the various aspects I came to know back then, made people "think" I was some kind of wizard at first; because these things were unknown at that time.....and some are still unknown until I see them in someone's situation, because not all aspects will show; but most will.
Anyway, it was all designed to help; and I couldn't have helped anyone if I hadn't already walked this road for myself..and while each person and crisis is different, etc...the journey, and the lessons that are learned during each one's journey is the SAME for the MLC'er and LBS.
Sure the MLC'er must take their journey alone; but IF the LBS doesn't take theirs, too, to also learn, it slows both people down, and causes time to be added.
It boggles the mind the various possibilities the crisis can resolve into....but ultimately if the both people will allow the crisis to work on both; they can come out stronger, better, more resolute, and more able to handle themselves, each other, their marriage, various relationships, and other people with the new and improved tools they have gained as a result of the change, growth and becoming they complete within themselves....and life goes on with a whole new hope and perspective.
I have SEEN this with my own eyes, or I wouldn't speak of it. :)
Further reading for your own understanding, and more food for thought. :)
Take care. :)
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Here are a couple of things that might be helpful to those newer to this website and forum. The forum is a great place to be, but the depth of RCR's research and study of MLC is really found in the articles.
Here is part of one of RCR's newsletters from a year or two ago. I put this here because it refers to the point in the crisis when valid reconnection could start happening. The articles section has more in depth information about the stages. After the part below, I will copy the entire newsletter article as I don't think it can be found on the website.
"MLCers do not reconnect in Separation or Liminality, during those phases the connections are Touch-n-Goes; valid reconnection will not begin until they are out of Liminality and near the end of Rebirth. Your MLCer may physically move home and begin reconnection attempts, but he will not have the skills and Self knowledge until he is at least this far through the crisis."
The entire newsletter article:
In the beginning--0-24 months after bomb Drop--a reconnection attempt will almost always be a touch-n-go, but later in the crisis the same actions may be reconnection. Confusing? My point is that often reconnection may appear like a touch-n-go; the difference is that reconnection lasts and progresses, whereas a touch-n-go is briefer and more superficial. A reconnection may or may not be intentional, but a touch-n-go is likely without intention and without awareness of the cycling and mixed messages.
Touch-n-go and reconnection are not either/or concepts; they are two ends of the same spectrum--each contains pieces of the other. Consider touch-n-goes as seeds of and for reconnection; as the midlife crisis progresses, touch-n-goes may move ever-gradually toward reconnection. They will change over time, becoming increasingly more positive, less superficial and longer.
Keep your expectation at zero when it seems your MLCer is beginning to reconnect. Why, now that she is changing shouldn’t you have greater expectations? No. Where is your MLCer on the connection spectrum--closer to the touch-n-go or to the reconnection end? Reconnection traits within contact and communication do not indicate a desire to return, or more importantly they do not indicate a readiness even if the desire is present.
Even at greater reconnection in Rebirth, the new person is not yet fully born. While you are getting to know and accept them, they are also getting to know and accept themselves. They are uncertain and need to feel safe in their uncertainty. Pressure, which they feel through sensed expectation, will force them to run back into the crisis where they can hide. This uncertain phase--like everything in MLC--is long-lasting, perhaps a year at the short-end of the norm.
Touch-n-Go
MLCers do not reconnect in Separation or Liminality, during those phases the connections are Touch-n-Goes; valid reconnection will not begin until they are out of Liminality and near the end of Rebirth. Your MLCer may physically move home and begin reconnection attempts, but he will not have the skills and Self knowledge until he is at least this far through the crisis.
MLCers touch-n-go because they are insecure and not ready to fully let-go of their former life with you. You are familiar, safe and secure. They reach back to you to make sure you are still there--like a child looking to mom as he sits on the bus for his first day of school. Touch-n-Goes are about testing, information fishing, putting out feelers and reassurance. The MLCer feels guilty and ashamed for causing you pain. Will you accept him, be kind and friendly even though he was not that way to you? They are testing both your forgiveness and acceptance and the integration of the two. Accepting the process of the crisis is different than accepting a person as they are now with their history of mistreatment. Remember how in the beginning people told you that the person you knew as your spouse was no longer the person you knew--that person was either dead, no longer existed, on a vacation, abducted by aliens…? That continues to be true. The Monster that was your MLCer is gradually crumbling and the person he will become is not that Monster. Will you be able to love, accept and forgive that new person knowing what the Monster did?
The article below provides an excellent description of what the MLCer experiences as they come to and move through Liminality on into Rebirth and Reintegration.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_midlife-metaphor.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_midlife-metaphor.html)
RCR Note: I thought I'd google a phrase from the article and see if it is ont he main site ot blog--since the blog is still down. It's on the main site: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_coming-and-going_touch-and-goes-and-reconnection.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_coming-and-going_touch-and-goes-and-reconnection.html)
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I would love to see HB and RCR and OP and Stayed and Stayed's H ::) and DGU all in the Capital Rotunda Testifying to Congress why there are so many families broken apart by depression at mid life.
Those fat cat senators and congressmen and women would be like :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
They'd have to sit in that hot seat with big fuzzy microphones.
Exhibit A and Chart B could show foreclosures caused and food stamps and heart attacks from stress and domestic violence from jealous rages etc etc Hoola Hoops and motorcycles and empty retirement funds! No end in sight.
I love reading what HB writes. It's amazing. Maybe bc I love science and how things work. When it comes to the human brain and chemicals and behaviors Yikes! :P :P
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I actually wouldn't mind of the MLCer comes back and has to work on themselves, but are committed to being a spouse.... that's what marriage is about, ups and downs but they don't just give up.
Many MLCers (but not all) come home before the journey ends. They complete their journey at home with their family as others on here testify.
Often they are unable to commit to the marriage on their return as recconnection is just beginning and to recommit to the marriage they have to get to the end of the true withdrawal stage and many return at the end of replay.
To believe that the MLC spouse just gives up on the marriage over simplifies what is happening. MLC has nothing to do with giving up but of moving forward to find themselves and deal with childhood issues. They truly believe that leaving the marriage will help them be happy. Of course we know different.
That is why it is so important to totally understand the process and let your MLCer go. Also if you don't believe you have a journey to complete IMO you are letting a great opportunity pass you by. Certainly I have learnt so much since my H left I would never have learnt before BD and I am grateful for that and so will H be when he returns home. And if he doesn't I am ok.
If hearing the words of commitment are what you truly want when they turn for home IMO you are likely to fail to rebuild a relationship for the future as the door will remain closed due to parameters being identified for a return and the MLC will turn away.
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JA Perfect! ;D
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Wow HB,
Great post but I REALLY think you misunderstood me on a couple things. First off, I never meant to imply any kind of conflict whatsoever and was just pointing out how great it was having so many leaders on this thread. As far as Hogan and Flair. (spoiler alert) wrestling is fake so I see that like a movie with two major stars. Again, I think you completely misunderstood me.
Secondly, I never said that the hormonal part came from you. Even though I'm typing this in my phone, I don't understand how you read it that way. I was just saying I don't know of major childhood issues in my W, but DGU already pointed out what should have been obvious to me
So, peace to everyone and let's move along!!
Oh, NO you don't get out of it just like that, my fine feathered friend, LOL!!!
Actually, NO, Thundarr, I didn't "misunderstand" at all, what you posted; I read EXACTLY what you said, and copied the quote as it STOOD when you wrote it.......you'll see what happens when you type on your phone, and don't quite get it right, LOL!!!
You'd better get home and look at your home computer, Thundarr on a FULL screen, then, LOL...you'll see why I wrote what I did. :)
For what it's worth, I'm actually glad I went back and copied those posts, it saves me a whole lot of trouble of typing them over again, LOL!!!
In regards to the language filter/foul language, I meant what I said. I don't own this board, but I was here at its inception/birth, nearly two years ago, right along with Old Pilot, and RCR who actually does own the board, for what it's worth. :) It's been my home for that long, and the comment I made was in the lines of respecting one's home...that's all.
I respect everybody else's "homes"...so, I was just sayin' :)
I am also bearing in mind that I'm sitting here in a thread with a whole LOT of men from LT at the moment, and while I have the greatest respect for ALL of you guys who have gone through what you all have thus far, I also keep in mind, that some may get extremely angry at what I have to say, too...and I am well prepared to take a great deal of heat, if necessary. :)
I honestly do care, and because I care, I'm blunt to a fault; as some of the guys that know me well can tell you.
I'm not worried so much for my own "misunderstanding" as everyone else's, as if I don't correct what I know I didn't say; I am the ONE who will be misunderstood, NOT you, Thundarr.
Dude, I have no worries here, for what it's worth; but I think you need bigger eyes and smaller fingers if you're going to type on your phone. :)
Have a good one. :)
:)
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Cheers to all the LifeTwo buddies...and my HS LBS brothers and sisters. Thanks Thundarr for starting this up and good to see (sorry for the sitches of course) some of you jumping on board here. Dang man, you ruined my total image of wrestling. Now I feel like a kid who just found out that the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause is not real. Real downer dude...LOL.
Hello, Moc, LOL!!!
I laughed so hard I nearly fell out of my chair when I read this from you about Thundarr having blown your image of wrestling...
I'm sorry we all meet under these circumstances; honestly, I've give anything if every situation came out whole, healed, and very blessed, honestly, most of them do; depending upon the attitude attained within.
You know, I'm not one to push religion, honestly, but you will hear me speak of the Lord many times; I'm a believer who believes but that does NOT "color" what I see in people.
People are people, regardless, and again, because I care, I may sound a little harsh at times, but at the same time, I understand, even if it's from a female point of view what you're going through...and I imagine a lot of you are surprised to read various similarities between male and female behaviors within the crisis.
Anyway, I had the experience that He didn't wait until we came through to bless us, we were blessed throughout; and things could have always been much worse than they were. :)
HB, can't wait to hear your 2x4s for us as I know we sometimes all need them. Your words ran true to me regarding STP and I forget that reconciliation is an agreement verbal and with action that true mending is occurring. In your opinion is this true for both male LBS and female LBS?
I've seen it on BOTH sides of the equation before; so, yes, it would be true with BOTH male and female LBS'.
Because change is called from by both sides, it would take the LBS at times, to do what's needed to "help" the MLC spouse forward into the "new marriage" that will come afterward. BUT, if one is not willing to take ownership, of their problems, total reconciliation that leads into this new marriage will be pushed back, held up, or won't happen until one or the other moves forward into what they're supposed to do.
Now, on that last, I'm usually disagreed with on that; but hey, I've seen this "strange connection" happen in my own case before; and I saw it in other's too, long ago. :)
I won't sit here and tell it doesn't happen for others, too....true change, in order to happen, must be orchestrated by one to influence the other, and bring about change desired...it might not be change you would exactly want, but you must get past the fear of "losing" your spouse.
I can tell you from experience, when my husband headed into the tunnel for the FIRST time, I LOST him COMPLETELY...and didn't 'regain' this "new man" until later, when it was HE who decided to choose ME.
I had already been prepared for this long before....well, in the second bout of crisis, I had ALREADY been chosen, and he wasn't going anywhere, therefore, I had NOTHING to fear, and all the stops got pulled on my part that second time. It all worked out once again; we're still together, and I saw truly what I KNEW I was supposed to have seen so long ago in my husband; it just took longer than it would have IF he'd done what He was supposed to have done the FIRST time... :)
I am wondering as when you see comments of true reconciliation via this board mostly that it seems the male LBS is overwhelmingly sorry, remorseful, apologetic, willing to do anything to obtain trust. As I know that my wife is probably closer to the reconnection (and no, I truly don't watch to see what stage she is in) and knowing her all these years, my lovely wife has RARELY EVER apologized for ANYTHING. She herself (along with her father and brother) will tell you that it makes you look weak, no credibility. I have probably heard under a handful of times her say "I am sorry for blah blah blah" and I felt genuine remorse coming from her. Of course this is YEARS after the incident and I have completely forgotten and gotten over the hurt. I can assume this will be the same once I let go of it all. Problem is...the MLCer lives with me which makes me fuel for her depression.
Don't allow her to make you the "fuel" for her depression; encourage her, validate her, but allow HER to navigate on her own, and if she even starts in on you, let her know that you won't tolerate disrespect. Just because she's depressed does NOT mean it's YOUR fault; I promise you it is NOT.
Sometimes depression brings out spew and confusion; but you don't have to sit and listen to it, most especially if it becomes abusive toward you....I walked out of the room more than once before I would allow him to be emotionally abusive toward me. I know it's hard to bear in mind that projection is something to watch out for, as they feel, they assume YOU feel...but only YOU would know how you feel.
Just keep giving her space to process herself, and just be there when/if she needs you to talk; and they will want to talk sometimes...even if what you hear won't make it sense to you, it WILL to her. :)
My husband was once one that never apologized for anything he did; for what was the same kind of reason; with added arrogance, and the feeling that HE never did ANYTHING wrong(and this attitude was prevalent during the first half of his crisis). But I can tell you this; at a right time, I learned to set boundaries that were designed to hold him accountable for his actions toward me; and because he did still have feelings toward me, and didn't want to lose his marriage; he DID breakdown totally, and given more time, he made quite a few changes in that area; and I did see him change in a miraculous way; as his guilt, shame and issues worked on him.
I got a much better man out of this, but hey, I changed, too....we grew up together, and are still growing as we speak. :)
MLC'ers will ALL eventually will reach this "broken" place within themselves, (unless they get stuck somewhere)some on their own, but some will have to be pushed because change is far scarier, than staying the same...and you know after all that's happened, there's too much muddy water gone under the bridge to go backward into what once was.
Anyways, I am still wearing the crisis and figuring out more each day from reading here, my own journey and how I got to be who I am. I have to figure out what parts of those need to change, and what parts of those I am content with.
Sounds to me like you're doing well for now, and processing yourself as you should be, Sir. Once you reach the point of knowing what needs change within yourself, you'll get this figured out, THEN, you'll get to the point of learning your wife from several aspects you never thought of; and after that, you'll see the marriage in a light you'd never seen it in before, and the ways the two of you related as a couple that actually one person CAN change when they change themselves to bring about change in the other person. :)
It's a long, hard journey, but you can do this; time, is indeed, given as a gift to use wisely...and there is much to learn, yet, still, time is what you have. :)
Peace and praying for all MLCers and especially LBSers!
Prayers and peace for you, too, MOC. :)
Take care,
HB
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Good job telling it like it is HB. True that!
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here I is
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DGU, very good points from the support of the articles today! :)
I would love to see HB and RCR and OP and Stayed and Stayed's H ::) and DGU all in the Capital Rotunda Testifying to Congress why there are so many families broken apart by depression at mid life.
Those fat cat senators and congressmen and women would be like :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
They'd have to sit in that hot seat with big fuzzy microphones.
Exhibit A and Chart B could show foreclosures caused and food stamps and heart attacks from stress and domestic violence from jealous rages etc etc Hoola Hoops and motorcycles and empty retirement funds! No end in sight.
I love reading what HB writes. It's amazing. Maybe bc I love science and how things work. When it comes to the human brain and chemicals and behaviors Yikes! :P :P
Mamma, I'd bet you'd like to sit in on a session like that!! LOL!!!
Seriously, though, I've seen numerous documentaries that say MLC is NOT real, nor what people think it is. Every time I see something like that, I get quite irate; because considering what I've seen, experienced, and guided numerous people through, I KNOW it's real enough.
It seems people have to actually LIVE THROUGH one in order to put validity to it...I expect this will be an ongoing argument long after everyone else is gone. :)
I actually wouldn't mind of the MLCer comes back and has to work on themselves, but are committed to being a spouse.... that's what marriage is about, ups and downs but they don't just give up.
Many MLCers (but not all) come home before the journey ends. They complete their journey at home with their family as others on here testify.
Often they are unable to commit to the marriage on their return as recconnection is just beginning and to recommit to the marriage they have to get to the end of the true withdrawal stage and many return at the end of replay.
To believe that the MLC spouse just gives up on the marriage over simplifies what is happening. MLC has nothing to do with giving up but of moving forward to find themselves and deal with childhood issues. They truly believe that leaving the marriage will help them be happy. Of course we know different.
That is why it is so important to totally understand the process and let your MLCer go. Also if you don't believe you have a journey to complete IMO you are letting a great opportunity pass you by. Certainly I have learnt so much since my H left I would never have learnt before BD and I am grateful for that and so will H be when he returns home. And if he doesn't I am ok.
If hearing the words of commitment are what you truly want when they turn for home IMO you are likely to fail to rebuild a relationship for the future as the door will remain closed due to parameters being identified for a return and the MLC will turn away
JA, GREAT points here! :) As you learn, you continue to understand, and this is what it's all about. :)
Good job telling it like it is HB. True that!
LOL, WP, thanks. I don't mean to get so wound up at times, but often I do, and write of what I know, and have experienced over time. :)
I will get OFF my own soapbox and allow some more room here for others experiences. :)
For what it's worth, a very warm welcome to all of you from LifeTwo! :D
I hope you will all find what you need within the archives, and other places here, and we will all help you in the best way we can. :)
Love to all of you from the whole gang here at The Hero's Spouse. We are ALL in this together, and each one has a valuable contribution to make; as we are all learning and keep learning together. :)
Take care all. :)
Later! :)
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Holy Sh*t! It's the Dawg!!
Rover baby. Welcome on over.
To one and all. This is a very good man. And committed to the cause and concept of family.
So much so it is becoming his career.
Rider
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Hello HeartsBlessings ...
We are not yet acquainted, yet your notable good reputation is known far and wide.
In this regard, I seek your feedback on a concept that his been bothering me ever since I joined LT, with this conundrum continuing here on HS. It is this ...
It would seem to me that many, if not the large majority of R examples I've seen have occurred with in-home MLC'ers. Regardless of their severity, for some reason they do not seem capable (emotionally, financially, whatever) to leave.
The next demographic group I've observed to have had R success is by far women LBS's whose H's have moved out, mostly never filed or completed their D, and after sometimes years, reconnection, then rebuilding, and finally R occurs. I've yet to see any significant evidence of long term abandonment by women MLC'ers resulting in R with LBS H's; especially once the D is finalized.
Now there has been debate and speculation that men tend to move on more quickly. Some speculate they are not as often burdened by the lion's share child custody. Others speculate that men are really more committed to the R, while women tend to emotionally attach to the next OM and are less likely to turn back. Many also say that the LBS men have simply moved on to a new women, thus closing the chance for R. Finally, they say the majority of posters tend to be LBS women, and therefore the R success stories are skewed due to the over proportionate representation on sites like this. Probably all are correct.
Here's my dilemma, and all due respect in that I've only been at this 13 months since BD ... If the chances for LBS men that have been abandoned by their W's has the worst chance of R, then this knowledge is important for many of us in deciding in what manner to move on with our lives (standing, file and complete D, ultimately find a new person and start a new life).
Again, duly respectful, your experiences and many other sages in your position seemed skewed by your experiences with an in-home MLC'er. Believe me, having them move out and move on has a different taste and feel of finality to it. And it is very hard to ignore past a year, let alone 2, 3, or 4 years. Particularly when paired with inexcusable replay behavior.
In my position, I've got custody of the children. Our D is delayed for business reasons, but should be completed later this year. Since she has been generally very kind and easy to get along with, I've take a wait and see attitude until the D is done, particularly as I don't want to rock the boat in an already disadvantageous position as the primary wage earner with a +20 year SAHM. Very bad position to be in financially. However, I do want to be realistic about my odds of success and this will factor heavily in how I detach, and how will be my vision of my future (dating, etc.). I have no religious doctrine to adhere to regarding marriage. No covenant for life concept coloring my vision. I simply loved my W, but must know when to let that go forever. Maybe that time is now. Maybe not.
Ultimately, I've always said I'd consider a R overture from my W at any point (sooner or much, much later), if I am still available. If not, then not. I will not close the door all the way, unless the OM situation becomes in some way intolerable.
So, to summarize ... in-home woman MLC'er v. long term runway woman MLCer? My guess is that the odds of success are seriously stacked against the latter.
Thanks for listening and caring for us orphan boys from LT.
Peace to you HB. 8)
Rider
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Hi All, I asked myself recently 'what's changed in me?' Wondering why I felt so much more at ease. ::) It is acceptance. I now view OW as more of a fixture in the apt H ran to in an effort to get away from me. My mouth and body language were too much for someone having an identity crisis.
I can't even relate to 'not knowing what I want' never mind 'not knowing who I am' :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
They'll figure it out. If we're quiet enough so they can think of it. ??? :P
I know this is a little late in this thread but I SO agree with you Mamma Bear!! Exactly!
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It would seem to me that many, if not the large majority of R examples I've seen have occurred with in-home MLC'ers. Regardless of their severity, for some reason they do not seem capable (emotionally, financially, whatever) to leave.
Most MLCers leave. Sometimes the LBS moves out, sometimes the MLCer, but physical separation occurs in the high majority of MLC cases. RCR has written 2 or 3 blogs about this as well. Normally I would link them for you but I think the blogs are currently unavailable.
Now there has been debate and speculation that men tend to move on more quickly. Some speculate they are not as often burdened by the lion's share child custody. Others speculate that men are really more committed to the R, while women tend to emotionally attach to the next OM and are less likely to turn back. Many also say that the LBS men have simply moved on to a new women, thus closing the chance for R. Finally, they say the majority of posters tend to be LBS women, and therefore the R success stories are skewed due to the over proportionate representation on sites like this. Probably all are correct.
Here' some insight from RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior. It is not uncommon for the LBS to move on, regardless of whether they are male or female. This website is to help people gain a true understanding of MLC. When the LBS can gain an understanding of what is happening to the MLCer, it can be very beneficial to Standing.
MLC is a journey of self-discovery and change. The person who comes through the MLC tunnel may be vastly different than the person who entered the tunnel and different than the possibly multiple personalities in the tunnel. How your MLCer is now is not indicative of who he might become. An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.
Here's my dilemma, and all due respect in that I've only been at this 13 months since BD ... If the chances for LBS men that have been abandoned by their W's has the worst chance of R, then this knowledge is important for many of us in deciding in what manner to move on with our lives (standing, file and complete D, ultimately find a new person and start a new life).
I am a male LBS. I am 25 months post bomb drop. I am 19 months post divorce. I don't know if my chances of reconciliation are better or worse than another situation. I think reconciliation is possible in any of our situations. Most MLCers make it through their crisis. If that is true.....then any situation has reconciliation possibilities. I believe understanding and accepting the process of MLC is a very important part of Standing.
Believe me, having them move out and move on has a different taste and feel of finality to it. And it is very hard to ignore past a year, let alone 2, 3, or 4 years. Particularly when paired with inexcusable replay behavior.
I understand what moving out is. What do you mean by moving on? All MLCers say and have "moving on" behaviors. But if you understand that MLC is a phase of life.....part of the maturation process.....then it might help you to understand that the "moving on" that the MLCer does is rarely permanent.
I am over 2 years post bomb drop, and I am divorced. My situation does not have a feeling of finality to it. I would encourage you to also read about contact levels. I have a Boomerang, which is common for an MLCer.
As far as inexcusable replay behavior.....again understanding the process and typical behaviors of MLC will help you with this. I will highly highly encourage you to read every one of RCR's articles on this website.
However, I do want to be realistic about my odds of success and this will factor heavily in how I detach, and how will be my vision of my future (dating, etc.). I have no religious doctrine to adhere to regarding marriage. No covenant for life concept coloring my vision. I simply loved my W, but must know when to let that go forever. Maybe that time is now. Maybe not.
Detaching is essential or her inexcusable behavior could tear you apart. I think it's only proper of me to say that I do adhere to a belief system regarding marriage.....the Christian belief system.....which is the foundation of this website, though certainly all are welcome regardless of belief system.
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DGU ...
Thanks for your kindness and attention on the play-by-play of my questions, but I'm not really sure you answered the probability aspects of my points. The point was that with regard to in-home MLC'ers, and those who dispense advice based on their experiences in this minority of cases (if one assumes that most MLC'ers leave), may have a skewed perspective on the MLC process and the different types of MLC'ers.
This is only my informal observations, but I've been around and read enough sitches to start to see the trends in each type situation. This information is important.
In your sitch, you feel like you are not yet done. That is all that matters, and I encourage you to stick by your gut. I feel I am in the same boat for the time being, and continue to watch with interest, but have no real illusions of any long term resolution to my W's journey. Each of us knows when it is time to fish or cut bait, so to speak.
What I mean by the MLC'er moving on is their pursuit of a new life. Time will tell regarding their success.
No, respectfully I don't adhere to the Christian doctrine of marriage as a covenant for life, regardless of D. Mine is more heartfelt and based on gut feel. I will know when my time has come to finally leave this chapter behind. And that is not to say I live in the past. I do not. However, I feel like I am watching a story evolve and it has not yet played out. So I just watch with interest.
Good luck to you DGU. I do admire your principles.
Rider
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Rover!!!!! This thread has officially reached epic proportions now!! Welcome my friend to the GREATEST party no one wanted to attend!
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Rider
The point was that with regard to in-home MLC'ers, and those who dispense advice based on their experiences in this minority of cases (if one assumes that most MLC'ers leave), may have a skewed perspective on the MLC process and the different types of MLC'ers.
The advice is the same. Learn to detach, continue on your journey doing mirror work, let your MLCer go on their journey and GAL. The difference being that the stay at home MLC is potentially harder to detach from as you are living with the lies, deceit and manipulation every day. Their bad behaviour is seen constantly.
As for probability, well some MLCers come home and some don't. If the probability was 1:100 and you had the one it wouldn't matter. None of us would know who that one will be until the MLCer commits to the marriage at the end of withdrawal. Standing is for us, for our future. Probability is only statistics and as we all know they can be manipulated however you want to lol.
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but I'm not really sure you answered the probability aspects of my points.
RCR has a blog that refers to statistics, but again the blog is not currently available. The answer is there are no reliable statistics. John Gottman has some, but they are not specific to MLC. His sample group suggests there is a high probability of return to the original marriage partner. As I mentioned in my previous post, most MLCers make it through the process. And yes, the vast majority of MLCers move out. There are few on the forum who have a live-in MLCer.
What I mean by the MLC'er moving on is their pursuit of a new life. Time will tell regarding their success.
Pursuit of a new life is a basic component of MLC. Success is low. There is another blog where RCR talks about MLCers having to learn by failure, but it takes time.
Here is a piece of RCR's article that gives insight into this "new life" concept.....which is technically a regression.
MLC is the result of significant wounding in childhood and at a person's initiatory experience and thus their return to the wounding is a regression wherein they choose to repeat their earlier mistakes in hopes of correcting them rather than applying their experience to make different choices.
I am sorry the blog is unavailable. There are blogs with information about return statistics (specifically not getting caught up in them) and about MLCers leaving.
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Points well taken DGU and Justasking.
Stats are typically meaningless and often skewed to perception. The same data set can often be read in two opposite ways.
The answer is always the same. There is no answer. This is gut feel proposition only. Visual flight rules. No map, no directions, no GPS. What you see is not even often what you get.
Alice in Wonderland. Opposite World. Detaching and moving away from this world is paramount, as it will drive you mad. Forgive me for my questions. It is the analyst in me. Surrender to the process and live your life. The tenents of dealing with MLC aways remain a constant, as opposed to the process of MLC, which is always in a state of change (whether we see it or not).
Rider
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Rider,
in regards to statistics.
If I were to say to you there was a 95% chance that they would regret this and want to return how would that make you feel?
Elated at the great chance? Surely you wouln't be 1 of the 5%
Unfortunately someone has to be.
The revers stands true what if it were 95% don't return. What makes you think you couldn't be part of the 5% that do return.
Now let's look at the facts.
You are here that is a good start. So you are in the higher probability of a reconnection anyway because of YOUR actions.
what if the rate of return is low because people don't stand. What if by your actions you are improving the rate of return?
We are encouraged to move on, get a new bf/gf blah blah blah. So we are breaking the norm as it is.
Anyhow I am sure you get my drift.
Now Dearheart moved out. Moved back in kind of and we ave different cyclings within that. As I watch the LBS who have vanishers I feel for them. I was the vanisher. I have to let them know I thought about Dearheart all the time. I was terrified when I decided to return and it took me months to do so even when I wanted to. I nearly lost it all.
Dearheart is a clinger. It is no fun either. You think having the ow rubbed in myface every day is thrilling to me?
You think not having affection (he is polite for the most part) is easy? He was so hands on, he was all over me. I miss that like you wouldn't believe. The only thing I do know is that he isn't like that with ow. I saw with my own eyes the lounge set up and he sits away from her. Photos on the alt show this as well. Well let me tell you hnever was like that with me. But I don't get the affection either.
The flipping dogs get more attention and affection than his own children try explaining that to the 5 girls who adore/d him. But it is all mvement I see. 9 months ago the house could have disappeared, 6 months ago the dogs and birds didn't matter. 3 months ago he started getting better with the girls. Having it in your face isn't any better than not having it in your face. Both are hard hard hard
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Hello HeartsBlessings ...
We are not yet acquainted, yet your notable good reputation is known far and wide.
In this regard, I seek your feedback on a concept that his been bothering me ever since I joined LT, with this conundrum continuing here on HS. It is this ...
It would seem to me that many, if not the large majority of R examples I've seen have occurred with in-home MLC'ers. Regardless of their severity, for some reason they do not seem capable (emotionally, financially, whatever) to leave.
The next demographic group I've observed to have had R success is by far women LBS's whose H's have moved out, mostly never filed or completed their D, and after sometimes years, reconnection, then rebuilding, and finally R occurs. I've yet to see any significant evidence of long term abandonment by women MLC'ers resulting in R with LBS H's; especially once the D is finalized.
Now there has been debate and speculation that men tend to move on more quickly. Some speculate they are not as often burdened by the lion's share child custody. Others speculate that men are really more committed to the R, while women tend to emotionally attach to the next OM and are less likely to turn back. Many also say that the LBS men have simply moved on to a new women, thus closing the chance for R. Finally, they say the majority of posters tend to be LBS women, and therefore the R success stories are skewed due to the over proportionate representation on sites like this. Probably all are correct.
Here's my dilemma, and all due respect in that I've only been at this 13 months since BD ... If the chances for LBS men that have been abandoned by their W's has the worst chance of R, then this knowledge is important for many of us in deciding in what manner to move on with our lives (standing, file and complete D, ultimately find a new person and start a new life).
Again, duly respectful, your experiences and many other sages in your position seemed skewed by your experiences with an in-home MLC'er. Believe me, having them move out and move on has a different taste and feel of finality to it. And it is very hard to ignore past a year, let alone 2, 3, or 4 years. Particularly when paired with inexcusable replay behavior.
In my position, I've got custody of the children. Our D is delayed for business reasons, but should be completed later this year. Since she has been generally very kind and easy to get along with, I've take a wait and see attitude until the D is done, particularly as I don't want to rock the boat in an already disadvantageous position as the primary wage earner with a +20 year SAHM. Very bad position to be in financially. However, I do want to be realistic about my odds of success and this will factor heavily in how I detach, and how will be my vision of my future (dating, etc.). I have no religious doctrine to adhere to regarding marriage. No covenant for life concept coloring my vision. I simply loved my W, but must know when to let that go forever. Maybe that time is now. Maybe not.
Ultimately, I've always said I'd consider a R overture from my W at any point (sooner or much, much later), if I am still available. If not, then not. I will not close the door all the way, unless the OM situation becomes in some way intolerable.
So, to summarize ... in-home woman MLC'er v. long term runway woman MLCer? My guess is that the odds of success are seriously stacked against the latter.
Thanks for listening and caring for us orphan boys from LT.
Peace to you HB. 8)
Rider
Hello Rider,
I don't work with actual percentages, as I've never taken the demographics of each and scaled them down...but I'll be more than happy to give you what I do know in the way of knowledge and understanding.
Ok, the possibilities of this are pretty much endless, and scale both sides of the gender coin....I can give you those, but considering what I'm about to say next will tell you why I cannot give you percentages, or statistics....MLC is too much of an uncertainty to graph that accurately; and I gave up that idea long ago. :)
Some of these case scenarios, will come on through and resolve, some won't...again, it's an individual choice in each case for each person.
And TIME plays it's part, as well; I've read, watched and heard all of kinds of different types of cases over the years...some MLC cases, I'm STILL observing have been ongoing as long as 10 years or longer; but the LBS in question is still waiting for an affair to run its' course, or for the MLC'er "wake up".
Here's what I can remember off the top of my head:
1. MLCers who decide to go on and marry their affair partner, becoming stuck in Replay for most of, if not all of their lives. This can happen because OW/OM pressures them to, OR because the MLC'er thinks they cannot return in any form....self punishment in some ways....but regardless, this is a possibility.
2. MLC'ers who decide to walk away and never return for whatever reason they choose it to be, whether justified or unjustified in their own eyes. The LBS may or may not know what happens to them afterward.
3. MLC'ers regardless if they stay at home OR move out that decide to return, finish their crisis, the LBS finishes their journey, and both learn to settle down into a more successful marriage than before the crisis happened(this is the MOST desirable outcome)
4. MLC'ers who "bargain" with the LBS to just forget what happened(generally happens just after the affair/Replay, or when the going gets too rough for THEM), and attempt to bury the whole thing, just to have it resurrect again after 3 to 5 years; and it could result in a divorce happening because the LBS is NOT going to do this again....
5. MLCer's AND LBS' who successfully fight off the first crisis, only to find themselves in a SECOND one; doing it ALL again right from the beginning...not to be confused with number 4..there ARE differences
On the LBS side:
6. LBS who decides NOT to accept their MLC spouse's decision to leave, and stays "stuck", never moving ahead, nor forward with their lives, and when enough time passes, they MIGHT wake up..(I've KNOWN a few of these in the past)
7. MLC'er decides to try and return after a LONG period of time, but LBS decides NOT to try again with them; because the LBS' feelings has changed and as a result, the MLC'er gets to go through what they put the LBS through...Karma at work here; and hope has gone, right along with the LBS' love.
8. LBS decides to file for a divorce, go on with someone else, and remarry; also related to not wanting to try again with the MLC'er
9. The damage becomes too much for the LBS to handle, and they stop their stand; firmly closing the door on reconciliation of ANY kind. They might tell the MLC'er and they might not...this is a personal decision on their part.
10. Always remember to prepare for the worse and hope for the best; and never discount the true power of God in your marriage and lives...(I include this one; because I don't care WHO you are, NO ONE but the Lord is in control of every situation.)
Well, I see, DGU, has already written from RCR's articles, and you might also benefit from that as well..her views and mine don't always match, BUT it's always good to have various points of view. :)
Anyhow, considering the possibilities are actually pretty much the same on BOTH sides of the coin, the outcome seems just as uncertain whether you've a stay at home MLC, as it is if you've a MLC'er who has moved out, regardless if it's male or female, one that has totally disappeared, or one that has constant contact with the LBS.
I have worked with BOTH sides of the coin over the years, and I haven't seen that much of a difference; as the journey itself doesn't have or contain that many variations.
Time has been one of the most important factors in quite a few of these situations; it SEEMS the longer they stay gone, the less likely they may return; but then again, one can only speculate, as I know you're asking me to do, here.
I've also said a few times before that if you ask them to leave, it lessens the chance they may return, but if they leave on their own, they are more likely to return on their own, considering the aspect of responsibility taken.
Granted, there ARE differences in men and women, and while I will also admit that I didn't have the experience of going through a divorce, I have been asked my opinion on filing vs them filing, and the possibilities from that quarter, as well.
I know from having watched and observed that the ones who run and get a divorce what seems to be in the early days are 'driven' hard by the pain within that drives their actions...they seem to think to divorce will stop their pain, but it won't...and in time, they will see this for themselves.
There again, some will return, some won't; it all depends upon THEM, their issues, what they are facing, etc...
You are honestly better off to learn total detachment and distance yourself from the situation your wife is in; and begin, if not already, to learn more about yourself, and what you would want to do.
As you grow further within yourself, you'll begin to know more of what YOU want..this is what the journey to wholeness and healing is all about.
MLC is a process that takes time, and lots of it, to resolve; and I think somewhere within yourself, you know what your wife is capable of, in spite of the fact that she's going through a MLC.
I would be completely remiss if I didn't bring up what some men will and have done in the past to stack the deck more in their favor.....I actually saw several men who made certain their wives "failed" in their endeavors to live on their own..which, honestly is one the aspects we must ALL learn to do during our own journeys.
The men allowed their fear of losing their wives to drive them to the point of making sure they returned much earlier to them than they probably would have, otherwise; instead of allowing them to figure out various aspects on their own..
Conversely, I have also seen men who actually 'enabled' their wives to continue by giving them money, instead of letting them stand or fall on their own....
So, these situations were either guilty of giving too much or too little...instead of just remaining neutral, and allowing the chips to fall where they were going to.
Sir, I cannot even pretend to even advise you or even speculate on statistics in regards to how your wife would fall in a statistical level within your own situation.
All I do know is that when your wife put you upon this path that was NOT of your own making, she did make it all about you, just as the crisis is all about her.
Whether you choose to stand for awhile after your divorce is finalized(if it gets that far) is completely up to you; but understand something I have seen more than once. Make sure your own journey is done and finished within yourself so that you can take the tools you gain into a new relationship if it should come to that.
I say this because if you don't do the mirror work required of you, you will go through this again with someone else...you see, if you do the necessary work, and take the journey spoken of, you will make a much better choice of partner the next time around if you choose to this path to take.
Even if you don't take the journey, and try to bypass it and go on to attempt reconciliation with your wife, and she doesn't do the same kind of work, it won't last, and BOTH of you will be in for ANOTHER BOUT of crisis to come, and it will pick right up where it left off before the two of you tried to reconcile.
The crisis will NOT be denied it's just due; and it WILL complete or NOT complete within the both of you, whether with each other, or with someone else.
You can stop your stand for the marriage at any time you like; this is something even I always knew when it was me going through.
Space and Time are needed for the MLC spouse to navigate through their journey; and no one knows except God how the outcome will go, the only guarantee you will ever have will be the work you do within YOU, that will begin the process of change within, not just your MLC spouse, but others who have related to you before.
It sounds like I'm not answering your questions, but I am, just not in the ways you expected.
It's been awhile since I was asked about percentages, etc.; and the crisis is not something that can be accurately "mapped" from that or any other aspect, as I have found within my studies over the years.
I never really saw any real "leadings" or clear evidence into what would bring about a greater possibility of return or walk aways, regardless of gender.
I just saw again and again, two consistent aspects that remained the same, regardless; FIRST, the Power of an Almighty God who knows more than I do, and SECOND; the vast differences in people that made predicting an outcome, or lack of outcome completely impossible.
The whole navigation through depends upon the INDIVIDUAL PERSON going through, not outside factors.
Sorry, Rider, I know I'm not of any more help, but thanks for the question; I have NEVER been able to answer that one to ANYONE's satisfaction. :)
Now, I must go and eat some dinner. :)
Take care,
HB :D
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wow..lots of big words and dialogue here..a very different feel
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TB...she is happy because she has 'won'has a new life with alll the trimmings..a sweet deal...geez..the courts are so hosed..as for co-parenting ?..From the bginning I decided I was a single parent..and I operate that way..I gather my own information and go my own way..I go to conferences ,help with homework and check report cards..keeping track of kids activities is a pain but oh well..she is never going to be there for you..in any way..sux but true..once you let that go..it makes a difference..
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Rover!! Welcome. Yes, although she will be getting a divorce with all the trimmings, it will not be the same as it was... and it will not be that way for the kids.
I will be fine. emotionally and financially... takes a little time, but I will be fine.
I'm looking at the sitch more like a case study now....
HB - Thanks for your detailed post. Like Rider, I have a lot of the same questions - so you answer to him is an answer to me.
You wrote - I say this because if you don't do the mirror work required of you, you will go through this again with someone else...
Question - If a spouse's mlc has nothing to do with you, the LBSer, which I've heard alot. Then why would the same thing happen in another relationship if the LBSer does not do the mirror work? Are you saying the LBSer is somehow responsible for the MLC... and this would carry over to another relationship??
And what mirror work are we talking about? I certainly have flaws, and will work on improving, as a person... but I dont think it some special spiritual journey I must take.
thanks for your thoughts.
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Question - If a spouse's mlc has nothing to do with you, the LBSer, which I've heard alot. Then why would the same thing happen in another relationship if the LBSer does not do the mirror work? Are you saying the LBSer is somehow responsible for the MLC... and this would carry over to another relationship??
Hobo.....here is some insight on your question from RCR article "Why Stand?"
It is not merely for the purpose of salvaging your marriage, but for learning to communicate and deal with this situation. Communicating with an MLCer--or a non-MLC walk-away spouse--with the intent of rebuilding and healing teaches you how to handle your next relationship. It forces you to look at yourself and find where you need to make changes. Your spouse's affair and MLC are not your fault, but you were not perfect and can always find place for growth and improvement.
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MLC is not your fault, them walking out is not your fault.
But you were not perfect, this does not mean it is yur fault. It means you can look at yourself and see what you weren't really happy with, what you had buried of yourself, how you had moved into a rut of behaviour. things sometimes that the MLC say sting and they may be something that has a truth in them, not the whole truth but a kernel of it. the things that stung most I had to look at most. And as I made changes to what I wasn't happy with my spirituality came to the fore.
Who knew?
I believed in stuff, but it gets stronger and stronger within me. And beliefs that I had once have come back. I am more what I was. Strange, life loving, believing in magic and love and so much more. I am becoming... me
i m happy, and becoming happier, it has nothing to do with Dearheart it is all about me. If he wishes to join me great, if not oh well I will become what I am meant to be.
Things just keep getting better.
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Right after BD people kept saying to me that I needed a therapist and I put them off. Didn't need it. This website was my therapy, to help me understand my H.
But now that I need to focus on my own issues, I wonder if there is a sort of checklist of questions we should be asking ourselves?
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HB - Thanks for your detailed post. Like Rider, I have a lot of the same questions - so you answer to him is an answer to me.
You wrote - I say this because if you don't do the mirror work required of you, you will go through this again with someone else...
Question - If a spouse's mlc has nothing to do with you, the LBSer, which I've heard alot. Then why would the same thing happen in another relationship if the LBSer does not do the mirror work? Are you saying the LBSer is somehow responsible for the MLC... and this would carry over to another relationship??
And what mirror work are we talking about? I certainly have flaws, and will work on improving, as a person... but I dont think it some special spiritual journey I must take.
Dear Hobo,
Read the article I wrote below. It can also be found in the self focus section of the board, BUT it should answer any questions you may have, and if you have more, ask them, I'll answer when I can. :)
The LBS Journey.
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2010, 11:45:17 PM »
By HeartsBlessing
Now, each newbie needs to read this; whether you think you need to change or not...every marriage has had its problems; and IF lives and marriages were perfect; there would be NO reason or need for the MLC.
But since NO ONE'S life OR marriage is perfect; and every last one of us has our faults and foibles...the journey needs to be walked to wholeness and healing by each and every one.
If you think you don't need to grow and change; I will tell you now, you are not being totally honest with yourself and are within deep DENIAL; and it is NOT the river in Egypt. :)
If you don't grow and change, you are hurting no one but yourself...as IF you don't recognize flaws within you; you will take these same problems into another relationship; and get to do it ALL over again...even if it's within the SAME relationship.
You will recycle your lessons until they are learned, or until you die; your choice.
The Bomb Drop you received, regardless of what form you received it in, represents a 'wake up' call to action...when your MLC spouse put you upon a path that was NOT of your own making; he/she made it all about YOU, the LBS; just as the crisis is all about THEM.
The two of you are on separate paths, whether you like it or not.
Even AFTER you finish learning the lessons of a lifetime; your spouse's MLC is the trigger for ongoing growth and change that will last the rest of your life.
I have been out of this for a long time, and I'm still growing and changing; looking deep within myself from time to time to see how I'm coming along...this will continue until I die. :)
I began by recognizing the need to walk this journey around three months after the bomb got dropped on me, so long ago. I wasn't perfect; it was time for me to grow up and become what God meant for me to be. I also had damage from my childhood AND my marriage to face and heal; and you will need to do this, also. :) Whatever you don't understand, just ask about; there is always someone here who is at one place or the other in their journey.
Some are far ahead, and some are just getting started.....we are here to help you however you need help in understanding what you must do to grow up within your spouse's MLC. :)
With that said, here we go. :)
Each person takes this journey as an INDIVIDUAL. There are no right or wrong ways to take this journey.
What's important is that it's taken, in its entirety. The only place you cannot start, is at the end, LOL, as you will not know what the ending is, until you reach it.(A little humor to brighten things up.)
Unfortunately, I don't remember any kind of roadmap to start you out...I've suggested the "Mirror of self-honesty"; it is as good a place to start as any, it will help you to begin seeing yourselves as you really are within.
Being honest with yourself is VERY important; it is the only way to changing whichever areas that need change within you.
Remember, it's NO ONE's place to judge you for what you see and reveal to whomever you choose to use as a sounding board(this is someone you can trust and talk to that can help you put these things into perspective).
Also remember that the answers are contained within YOU, no one can "give" them to you...and if you think you can't find them, well, you just haven't "tapped" them yet.
Above all, don't be afraid..this is not a test where you score for how well you do. You can take as much time as you need to complete this path.
But it must be done.
Attitude is important; don't take this journey in the hopes you'll get your spouse back.
This is for YOU, not them...they should NOT be in the picture you're looking at of yourself. This is an INDIVIDUAL journey; just as your MLC'er/WAS is on a journey that is all about them, this is all about YOU.
One of the best things in this life, is to come through the journey the LBS spouse takes, learns the lessons of life, fixes the things within that are wrong with THEMSELVES, and come out on the other side, whole, and healed.
They know within themselves in the end, without the shadow of a doubt that they are and will be all right regardless of what their MLC'er does, the marriage comes back together or not, or even the twists and turns that life may take in the future.
Life, when it comes down to it, is nothing BUT one big problem to be solved, and solve it you will, as you live each day of your life. You will, when you come through, carry the tools needed to do this once your journey is completed.
How to get there? That's NOT a one size fits all answer. Each person's journey is different,tailored to the individual themselves...no one can "tell" you what to do; or how to do it.
You just do it, and it starts by looking deep within yourself.....
You've just been bombed; you're lost and afraid. The person you've given your life to, has betrayed you, abandoned you, says they don't love you anymore, or give you the speech of "I Love you, but am not in love with you". When you ask them why, they tell you they don't know, or blame you with every bad thing they are feeling...and it is hard NOT take them seriously.
You're uncertain what the future will hold, and that is a normal feeling..but you don't think it's normal. These things should not be happening, you think to yourself.
You want strength, but can't seem to find it. You can't eat, sleep, nor seem to get away from depression.
The fallout is everywhere, there is thick dust you can't seem to see through.
Eventually, you reach out for help as things do not seem to be coming back together as you'd hoped they would.
What you meet is a group of individuals going through the SAME thing; they tell you it's "MLC", it's NOT your fault, and furthermore, begin to try and get you to see that you must go through what you perceive is more pain and suffering; and you don't want that.
You want a "quick fix", you want your life back, you want your spouse to look at you like they used to.
I've got a newsflash for you:
You're NOT going to get that; when your spouse went into the tunnel; your marriage and your life, as you knew and saw it, DIED.
Get it? It's dead, as in not coming back ever again, burned to the ashes, GONE.
All the crying, begging, pleading, clinging, demanding...all destructive behaviors will NOT help to fix anything.
They will only cause MORE damage, as disrespect from the MLC'er will ONLY increase.
One thing you need to worry about as the dust from the fallout settles, is protecting yourself from the MLC'er if he/she is financially irresponsible..you may think this doesn't have anything to do with this journey, but you're wrong.
This is the FIRST thing you DO need to learn..protect yourself from those who would hurt you.
A firmly set boundary in the financial area alone for now, is very important; if you do NOT have money to support yourself and your family, you will go bankrupt, and lose everything material that is necessary.
The MLC'er is NOT going to be responsible, so YOU have to be..formulate a plan, and stick with it; ESPECIALLY if there is an OW/OM involved. Neither needs your money, YOU DO.
The next thing I suggest, if you need to, see a doctor, and get a physical. Why? Because MLC takes its toll on you, and YOU are important..if need be, get some anti-depressants or something of that nature, to calm you down so you can begin to cope with what's happened. Your mind will need to be clear, as when you "get it" you will begin the journey within yourself.
Looking within yourself is one of the HARDEST things anyone can do or ever will do. I can't tell you where to start, as everyone is different, but you can start by looking in the mirror of self-honesty; UNCOVER that mirror and look hard. Anyone who says they have NEVER made ANY mistakes in their lives is LYING to themselves AND to everyone else who knows and loves them.
Be prepared to "sort" out what you see with someone you trust who understands what you are doing. A Sounding Board is really important, someone who will be honest, and straightforward; helping you to begin see the areas of change that are needed within you; also they can help you effect those changes, making them permanent.
This is important work on yourself; DON'T NEGLECT IT, don't skip over it, thinking it's not important.
In time, as you progress, you will see yourself as you really are, seeing some VERY hurtful things, things you will NOT like.
Are you still fighting the fact, that you will need to take this necessary introspection after reading this far?
I can tell you something from experience: You're only hurting YOURSELF,not anyone else; this is where the "Control lesson" one of the MOST important lessons in this life, comes into play.
The only person we can control in this life is OURSELVES, not anyone else. The MLC'er did his/her damage, sure, BUT, you cannot help him/her; accept that you can only help yourself.
That means taking the focus, such as it is, OFF the MLC'er, and putting it on YOU as the important person.
As time passes on, and you learn about YOU, beginning to fix the areas within you that need to be fixed, you will CHANGE. And for the better, NOT worse. You'll gain strength, understanding, confidence, and patience from this walk down the path toward a better YOU.
Read self help books, talk to the people on this board, do more things for yourself. Get a life that's separate from the MLC'er; get on with it..time won't stand still because this has happened; it marches on just like it always has. Don't waste it in "pity parties" or wishing for the MLC'er to come back, nor spend any more time grieving than you'll need to in order to accept this major "death" in your life...things have CHANGED, and you'll need to change right along with it.
You'll find, given time, that happiness is NOT found in another person, it is found WITHIN ourselves.
This is a PROCESS, not only a journey; and as you effect the changes within, people WILL see these changes, even the MLC'er that left you behind. Most importantly, they will affect the reactions of others toward you.
Taken properly, in time, it will no longer matter to you if your marriage makes it or doesn't, you'll find that YOU have grown stronger, see more clearly; most of all you'll know within your heart, that you WILL make it, regardless of what happens. If your marriage rebuilds itself, AND the MLC'er makes all the necessary changes he/she must make as well, it will be a bonus.
You'll find you don't really need another to "complete" you; you'll be complete within yourself, regardless.
And you'll begin to deal on your own terms, as a more mature individual for what you've done within YOU.
This is NOT a "magic pill" designed to solve ALL your problems, but it will help you cope with ongoing problems, not just in the MLC.
This process will take, TIME, you'll suffer PAIN, sometimes you will feel GUILT..other times you will feel SHAME. Don't run from them, EMBRACE them, as your attitude will be most important. You're not alone, others have gone this same route, walked this same road toward healing, and wholeness.
It is most important that when you accept all the mistakes you've made, make all the necessary changes, that really NEED to be permanent, that you FORGIVE, not only the MLC'er and anyone else who has hurt you, but YOURSELF.
Take each day as it comes, one day at a time, one step at a time, be kind to yourself, you're human, and not immune to making mistakes.
Again, this journey is for YOU, and ONLY YOU.
This is the journey of a lifetime, an opportunity for YOU, take it, and make the most of it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:49:54 AM by OldPilot »
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Thank you, HB, the post answered my questions.
I know I have faults, and things I can work on. Some of the faults were mentioned by MLCer that these were reasons for D. I know they should not be, they are not 'divorcable offenses'.
But nevertheless, things to work on.
Another question I have is do most MLCers 'know' they are going through something? or do they just think this is normal... and it's perfectly OK to do and say the things they do.
My MLCer does seem less 'irrational' that some I've read, but do they 'know' it's not normal?
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Pft,
so many on here say my MLCer seems less irrational, more sure, they are far more stubborn, and so on.
I knew something was wrong with me at first I felt I was going crazy, and then when I ran I felt immediately better, it wasn't me, it was h. And then it crept in and I had to seek help. (I was PND) and still i ran even tough I knew it wasn't Derheart but I tried. And then I wanted to come back and still I ran. I knew I was not right but still I tried to run.
they know, they may deny for a long while but they know.
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Another question I have is do most MLCers 'know' they are going through something? or do they just think this is normal... and it's perfectly OK to do and say the things they do.
Here is some insight on your question from RCR's MLC Overview article
There are many who witness the Cycling and Chaotic behaviour and conclude that Midlifers know exactly what they are doing. Since the behaviour cycles, there are pockets of rationale and clarity. Some are able to compartmentalize their lives, functioning at work and other activities away from the home. It is not that the Midlifers do not care, but rather that they must shield themselves from caring. They feel they must do whatever it is they are doing even when internally admitting it is wrong. They steel themselves emotionally; but they are not without guilt; rather I believe that for many it is the opposite. Their guilt is so immense that the burden is overwhelming. They are running from the demons within themselves and from the burdening reminders of guilt from the spouse, whether she is actively laying guilt or not. In addition, OWs add guilt by forcing responsibility for their happiness and success on the midlifer, and then by punishing him when he cycles between her and his wife.
Midlifers are not always aware of their actions. There is an awareness within each moment, but a global absence of awareness; this only becomes clear later. Driven by emotions, Midlifers are moment and self focused and often unable to link consequences and understand the relation of their behaviour to the external world. Their memory becomes fuzzy; though they may be aware of their actions during each present moment, in clarity they may not recall what takes place during fog and vice versa.
Large chunks of time are holistically blank. There may be a memory of certain events within those chunks, but the external relation to the world is lost. Events are not linked solidly to other things and thus may have no chronological placement. Time is a tangled string that rather than linear.
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If I am sticking to my schedule and don’t cave to the urge to visit, this should be my last post before I go on vacation. I may have some time tomorrow—but you know we’ve got a SuperBowl party to go to. I should be on the computer finalizing my list of houses to visit with the realtor and so I may pop in…but really I am telling my self I’m not supposed to!
This thread has quickly become an all-star game, with STP and HeartsBlessing both chiming in. It kind of reminds me of when Hulk Hogan first met Ric Flair and Flair had the WCW title with him.
If you're saying 5-7 years then that would be in line with peri and/or a transition but does that whole time have to be crisis?
Others have answered no to this. I don’t disagree with their explanations, but I would not answer no. Why? Language.
All squares are rectangles.
All rectangles are not squares.
All Midlife Crises are Midlife Transitions.
All Midlife Transitions are not Midlife Crises.
HeartsBlessing said that a transition can morph to a crisis, but it cannot go back. What that means in how I explain it is that a crisis-level transition does not goes back to being a non-crisis-level transition. But the tern transition applies to both, the crisis is a type of transition.
Great post but I REALLY think you misunderstood me on a couple things. …I never said that the hormonal part came from you. Even though I'm typing this in my phone, I don't understand how you read it that way.
I read it that way too. Maybe it was direct, maybe implied, but that’s what I thought you were saying.
You know, I'm not one to push religion, honestly, but you will hear me speak of the Lord many times; I'm a believer who believes but that does NOT "color" what I see in people.
Really? Because that sort of phrase can be taken another way—a positive way! Maybe your faith is why you color people beautiful.
Religion is a beautiful thing, but we are human and we so often use it to judge others while self-righteously inflating ourselves that when we talk of it, sometimes we talk of how our religion doesn’t affect or influence our view of people—because the idea is that it would have a negative influence. And sadly people use it to pain people ugly—but it just reflects back.
But HeartsBlessing, I know you pain people with beautiful and I think that it is a God-Brush in your hand.
It would seem to me that many, if not the large majority of relationship examples I've seen have occurred with in-home MLC'ers. Regardless of their severity, for some reason they do not seem capable (emotionally, financially, whatever) to leave.
It seems to me that female MLCers are more likely than males to stay at home, so it could be that your sample experience is with more male LBSs and their female MLCers.
Now there has been debate and speculation that men tend to move on more quickly. Some speculate they are not as often burdened by the lion's share child custody. Others speculate that men are really more committed to the relationship, while women tend to emotionally attach to the next OM and are less likely to turn back. Many also say that the LBS men have simply moved on to a new woman, thus closing the chance for relationship. Finally, they say the majority of posters tend to be LBS women, and therefore the relationship success stories are skewed due to the over proportionate representation on sites like this. Probably all are correct.
Women file for 67% of divorces. A few may be Standers or LBSs who don’t know they don’t have to file or got tired of Standing, but I do believe that most of those 67% are woman who want the divorce. Men and women have different ways of coping as well as different ways of socializing and relating. So I think maybe this sort of forum has more women because it is more in line with how women relate and socialize with each other. I don’t know, just speculating.
Also, men marry more frequently and sooner after divorce than women. This could be about men moving on faster, or it could be about men avoiding being the growth and healing of recovering and needing a relationship (needy type of needing). Maybe women wait until they are more ready. I don’t know, just food thought.
I've yet to see any significant evidence of long term abandonment by women MLCers resulting in relationship with LBS husbands; especially once the divorce is finalized.
…Here's my dilemma, and all due respect in that I've only been at this 13 months since BD ...If the chances for LBS men that have been abandoned by their wife's has the worst chance of relationship, then this knowledge is important for many of us in deciding in what manner to move on with our lives (standing, file and complete divorce, ultimately find a new person and start a new life).
…I do want to be realistic about my odds of success and this will factor heavily in how I detach, and how will be my vision of my future (dating, etc.).
…So, to summarize ... in-home woman MLCer v. long term runway woman MLCer? My guess is that the odds of success are seriously stacked against the latter.
I don’t like to talk about statistics. But admittedly one reason is because I agree with you.
I think the odds are better for reconciliation if the MLCer is at-home, low energy (that usually goes with being at-home) or if they are a Clinging Boomerang—supposing the LBS learns what to do as a Stander. I don’t like to say that too emphatically because it’s not something I have any peer-reviewed data to support and more importantly I don’t want to destroy or even damage the Hope of LBS whose MLCers are not one of those types. But the reality is that most LBSs here will probably not reconcile with their spouses.
But the goal is that through the support and education we offer, we will gradually increase those odds of reconciliation. So right now it may the odds may be stacked against, but as we all learn the best ways to Stand and interact with MLCers and focus on Self, we will have more and more reconciliation success stories. And that may be contagious because when there are few successes there are higher doubts; so when you friend reaches reconciliation, you may have an easier time believing you can or will too.
As for how you detach… There is a difference between a connection and an attachment. Connection is healthy, attachment…not so much. I consider the connection something that can be sustained on an emotional and spiritual level while the MLCer is in full nutcase mode because the connection is with the core person—or what some might call the Higher Self. Attachment is about how your MLCer’s actions and emotions and cycling … control your actions, emotions and cycling… Are you reactionary or responsive? Given the context of your comment, I think you may actually be talking about connection rather than detachment.
I have read that women are more certain when they walk-away. They file for divorce more often and they may have been considering divorce for years. I’m not talking about MLC, just women in general. They wanted their marriage to improve, but eventually they gave up and lost their drive to influence and even ask for change. The time to worry is when your wife stops nagging or complaining; that is an indicator that she no longer believes change will happen. At first she thinks she’s just settling and accepting that this is what marriage is, but this the beginning of her plans to leave.
Women may be more independent than men. They function better alone than men—divorced men have shorter lifespans than married men, but that is not true of divorced women. Can anyone think of MLCer women who are Clinging Boomerangs?
The contact types are not meant to be psychological types. But the Clinging subtype of Boomerangs is more about psychology that frequency of contact. Clinging Boomerangs are needy. It seems to me that few leaving women are needy—or at least they do not come across as needy.
Guys, what are your thoughts on this?
… if you don't do the mirror work required of you, you will go through this again with someone else...you see, if you do the necessary work, and take the journey spoken of, you will make a much better choice of partner the next time around if you choose to this path to take.
Question - If a spouse's MLC has nothing to do with you, the LBSer, which I've heard a lot. Then why would the same thing happen in another relationship if the LBSer does not do the mirror work? Are you saying the LBSer is somehow responsible for the MLC... and this would carry over to another relationship??
And what mirror work are we talking about? I certainly have flaws, and will work on improving, as a person... but I don’t think it’s some special spiritual journey I must take.
I can’t speak for HeartsBlessing, but I’ll give my answer. She’s not saying your next wife will also have an MLC and leave you or that you will have a pattern for finding and dating/marrying women who are having or will have an MLC. Sure, we have patterns like some people are attracted to alcoholics and yet they can’t tell the person is an alcoholic at first. There is some sort of energy or attractive force that they subconsciously read—I’m not trying to sound airy-fairy, I just don’t know how to describe it. It’s a bit if Imago Therapy (Harville Hendrix) which in my mind distills to we marry our issues, or we marry the person best suited to bring our issues to the surface.
But I don’t think that’s what HeartsBlessing was saying. It’s more basic than that. Second marriages have a much higher failure rate than first marriages. Why? People don’t do their mirror work. They don’t give themselves time to figure out what happened, change, heal and keep changing. Mirror-Work isn’t about a spiritual journey. It’s simply acknowledging your flaws and learning more positive and functional coping skills.
I see that HeartsBlessing responded already. I’m sorry don’t have time to read it in detail. I was actually supposed to use part of my time at the computer to review the houses before going downstairs for my exercise and I instead spent it reading this thread! But it was fun.
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Such an incredible amount of knowledge in one place, almost like a Think Tank or something. Based on HB and others' well-documented beliefs (along with my own), it could be alleged that all of us coming here is no accident. Something to think about.
I have a question for all, and I believe all here are familiar with my sitch. My W left and took next to nothing with her, leaving me the house along with all our mutual possessions and having the kids at least part of each day and 5 nights a week. She has really been connecting with them lately and expressed concern the other morning for the fact that our house is in foreclosure and pledged to do whatever I needed her to in order to save the house. Tonight she dropped off S7 and we discussed it, and she asked me what I needed from her and where to sign. She will get the things together to be faxed on Monday, and we will go to get our taxes done jointly later in the week. She has followed through on everything she has said, and chose to have D11 spend the night with her along with D19. This will be either the 5th or 6th week in a row in which she has stayed at home all weekend and spent it with at least one of the kids. She follows through on everything she tells them she is going to do to the best of my memory.
Tonight she brought up the fact that the circus is coming to the city next weekend and I mentioned, out of habit, "we" could take the kids. She told me the ticket prices and mentioned we could split them. She said she was thinking "we" could go if I would drive as she does not like driving the city. I'm presuming she means driving her car and that would be only the second time I ever have since she bought it nine months ago. The first time was on our anniversary and that was because she was too drunk/ sleepy to drive. That was two weeks after BD and 1 week before she moved to the living room. It was also 1 week before we slept together for the last time.
I told her I had scheduled a vacation for the kids Spring Break and told her I wanted to take them somewhere, probably the Smokies. She mentioned how nice it would be there and how she would like to go, so I casually mentioned that she should ask for that week off. She stated that she would and that she would have to wait until Monday to find out. She seemed genuinely excited to go. She actually stayed for awhile and we talked about school and our favorite shows. She has begun watching our favorite shows again after having stopped for several months post-BD. We had several laughs and lots of eye contact. The only semi-odd thing is when I asked her if she remembered something about me (trivial) and she gave me a "why would I?" look and said she didn't. Then it was back to normal and remained that way.
Now, here's where I am in my journey. I realize this means absolutely nothing. It may be a touch and go but who knows if it is even that. I read nothing into it as she doesn't show any signs of wanting to be anything more than friends. What I have accepted is that I will be happy with just being her friend from here on out if that is what comes of this. The worst thing she has done to me is to break my heart, and I have to proof of a PA or an active OM at any time throughout this. In truth, I am not hurt that badly and have it nowhere near as bad as some here do. Most of the hurt I feel I have brought upon myself with my continued insistence on figuring out what is going on and obsessing over the absurdity of it all. I'm not completely past that yet but I'm getting there. For some reason a revelation came to me while W was here and it had nothing to do with her at the time. As I looked around the living room I realized that I did not really make decisions equally with her. In truth, I should have consulted with her more and have resolved to change that as best I can by being more open-minded with what not only she has to say but also others in my life. I will practice that change next weekend when we go to the circus (and she did mention our favorite restaurant coincidentally and I brought up going there since we will be up there anyway). It will not be about me, but about the kids and regardless of what she says or does that day I will remain the father I want them to have.
So, my question to HB and all is whether or not I'm doing wrong by choosing to go ahead and be her friend. My training would definitely reinforce the belief that partners must be friends first and foremost, but as I've said many times rules sometimes don't apply in this. My logic is not only my training but the fact that she IS still being a parent (limited and under my supervision, granted) and is not subjecting me to outright abuse or an OM at this time at least. I've heard several say that she has to "miss me" and having us do family things together would certainly lessen that, but can it really hurt if I steel myself to prevent a cycle down?
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Women may be more independent than men. They function better alone than men—divorced men have shorter lifespans than married men, but that is not true of divorced women. Can anyone think of MLCer women who are Clinging Boomerangs?
Guys, what are your thoughts on this?
I am not a "guy," but Rebel has what I have labeled an "UBER CLINGER."
;D Summer
EDIT - Also MOC may fit this category IMHO - Oldpilot
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Women may be more independent than men. They function better alone than men—divorced men have shorter lifespans than married men, but that is not true of divorced women. Can anyone think of MLCer women who are Clinging Boomerangs?
Guys, what are your thoughts on this?
I am not a "guy," but Rebel has what I have labeled an "UBER CLINGER."
;D Summer
I agree about Rebel's W, and I think my W would come close to being a Clinger but is definitely a Boomerang at this time. I'm kind of disheartened from RCR's post that most of us will not have restored M's (kind of knew that, but yeah) and about how women plan it out over years. My studies of MWD would suggest the same thing, but honestly I think the chances of an R are probably just as good with a WAW as with a pure MLCer. The tactics are the same, and both CAN change their minds. Ultimately, only the Lord knows what will happen and I believe he can change things any minute of the day. Our knowledge (even RCR's) is very limited at this stage of the game due to the fact that we ultimately represent only a small fraction of LBS out there and it seems that we all have a remarkable number of things in common (computer proficiency among others). Return rates may be much higher than we think, and several factors may play a large part that we know nothing about. Maybe I need to start on that book/ dissertation sooner rather than later....
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Thundarr
If you read what RCR wrote about women may having been considering divorce for years, I think it's important to note that RCR wrote she is referring to women in general and not MLC.
I also agree with what RCR says about potential reconciliations. But to throw my perspective in on that, I believe it has just as much to do with the LBS no longer wanting to reconcile as the MLCer not eventually wanting to reconcile.
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Thank you, HB, the post answered my questions.
I know I have faults, and things I can work on. Some of the faults were mentioned by MLCer that these were reasons for D. I know they should not be, they are not 'divorcable offenses'.
But nevertheless, things to work on.
You are MOST welcome, it had never occurred to me that people would take the journey to wholeness and healing as taking the "blame" for their spouse's MLC, until someone directly confronted me two years ago on DB, and asked me about that..
But, you know something? Back in 2001, I even thought when people were trying to explain this concept to me, that they were blaming ME for what HE did.....I was asking WHY did I have to CHANGE when it was my HUSBAND that had done so much wrong? So, you see, I'd been there, too. :)
What it actually took was telling me that change had to start somewhere, and it needed to start with me...that was how I 'got it'......the reason for the article written was to explain clearly what this journey entailed, and why; but you don't have to get "religion" or even get "spiritual" to find yourself. :)
Another question I have is do most MLCers 'know' they are going through something? or do they just think this is normal... and it's perfectly OK to do and say the things they do.
My MLCer does seem less 'irrational' that some I've read, but do they 'know' it's not normal?
No, I wouldn't say they would think this is "normal" but hey, you start thinking what would be considered 'crazy' thoughts if you let them out, what would YOU do or say?
My husband was so confused most of the time, I wasn't sure if he were coming or going; and he knew this wasn't normal; but on the other hand, I KNEW him; and knew his behavior was NOT normal; although between his justifications and other kinds of rebellion I was seeing, I thought at first, he'd gone off the deep end...but that wasn't it at all.
His did start out in 1999 with a nervous breakdown brought by a wreck he'd had on his job that resulted as a fatality; NOT his fault, but this kick started him into the tunnel at that time.
Later on, MUCH later on, at several points he DID turn to me and say several things designed to let me know he knew something was wrong, but didn't know what; said he was confused, and wasn't sure even who I was at times...but, if I confronted him directly, that was ANOTHER story entirely. They don't HAVE to have "labels" applied, NOR do they have to be told directly that something is wrong.
THEY KNOW. :)
They do know long before the bomb is dropped that something is very wrong; but they're not sure what it is.
This does NOT excuse their behavior; and I did hold my husband accountable as the crisis wore on, and I learned to set hard boundaries; this came AFTER the affair was done and over with.
I do know this for sure, they are AWARE of all they do at the time they do it; and most of it comes out later in the crisis....some of it when they're held accountable for their actions, and more of it, as they can and most do come forth on their own to speak of it.
Some speak all, some don't speak much, and some are very transparent; as each person is different, each crisis is different what one will do, another will not, and there are various differences in people to account for, too.
I hope this helps. :)
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HeartsBlessing said that a transition can morph to a crisis, but it cannot go back. What that means in how I explain it is that a crisis-level transition does not goes back to being a non-crisis-level transition. But the tern transition applies to both, the crisis is a type of transition.
RCR is right, BUT; once it goes to crisis level because of the mistakes that are made that puts it into that category, sure, it winds down, eventually, but the mistakes made that led to the DAMAGE done is what marks the Transition as having been termed as a true crisis for not just the MLC'er, but the LBS, as well.
This calls upon the LBS to accept various aspects that IF the MLC'er had kept this a transition, they would NOT have had to accept, such as having entangled themselves in an affair, or various running behaviors that really do put the marriage on the line.....no excuses for these at all...and the MLC'er should consider themselves fortunate the LBS was/is willing to accept and embrace these aspects...
NO ONE should EVER go through aspects like this..but it does happen in this way, and additional aspects are learned by the LBS AND the MLC'er, as it will sometimes take serious a very mistake like this to really show the MLC'er the person they have in their LBS spouse.....I wish no one had to go through the affair aspect, but unfortunately, it does happen; and so, because I've faced it myself, I make an effort to help the LBS understand a few other kinds of aspects that are added on when an affair has been had or is ongoing.
Until I or someone else can guide them PAST and into a certain point of ACCEPTING, EMBRACING and FORGIVING what all has happened, the WHOLE marriage stays in CRISIS..in danger of completely falling down. And it's even hard as the MLC'er continues to face the issues within themselves, the LBS can get tired at ANY time and decide to quit...of course BOTH people can decide this at any time; but I encourage people to stay together if at all possible, it's worth it, I know, I was there at one time, too. If some of us can move past the worst parts of this, others can too, and this is the encouragement I also work from. :)
There are additional mistakes/damage to atone for; that cannot be undone...therefore, IMHO, I was never able to see my husband's crisis as a true transition again...although, he did 'transition' on through in that kind of aspect, making the necessary changes and did finish coming through whole and healed.
Because of the additional damage he'd done to himself through his actions during both times, plus the refusal on his part to face ALL of his issues the first time; it took that much MORE time for him to come through.
Although, I went through for 7 1/2 years, mine did stay a Transition; I didn't put him through even a fraction of what he put me through; as I never ran away; nor really scared him like he'd done to me...and yes, I DO remember..what took me so long was in part, all of the issues I faced, but also because he kept pushing me and hard; not to mention "grabbing" onto me, and trying to reason with me
RCR, this thread is moving so fast I can barely keep up, LOL, so, I didn't even know you were here at first...have a great vacation. :)
Quote from: HeartsBlessing on Today at 01:44:05 PM
You know, I'm not one to push religion, honestly, but you will hear me speak of the Lord many times; I'm a believer who believes but that does NOT "color" what I see in people.
Really? Because that sort of phrase can be taken another way—a positive way! Maybe your faith is why you color people beautiful.
Religion is a beautiful thing, but we are human and we so often use it to judge others while self-righteously inflating ourselves that when we talk of it, sometimes we talk of how our religion doesn’t affect or influence our view of people—because the idea is that it would have a negative influence. And sadly people use it to pain people ugly—but it just reflects back.
But HeartsBlessing, I know you pain people with beautiful and I think that it is a God-Brush in your hand.
Painting all people 'beautiful' RCR is what I DO; and it's not because of "religion"it's one of the many positive aspects of ME, and who I AM, and a true reflection of the gifts He gives me to use. I'm NOT a perfect person; I get sick, I get mad, I get tired, and I'm HUMAN, just like anyone else. :)
But I LOVE people, and because I really do love people, it reflects in my words, I would always hope people would see that, but sometimes I'm seen as one who is always supposed to be on the "level", and while I'm honest, I'm a person, too...and I have feelings, dreams, wants and needs, too.
I try my best NOT to shove basic religion down people's throats, and I respect people's beliefs, or non beliefs, it doesn't matter to me, people are people, period...that's why I say "religion" does NOT "color" my view; but my LOVE for people does, indeed, color my views of people, and I think I see what you're saying in that aspect. :)
What I see is people that need love, support, help, and I give everything I know how to give of myself so people can feel better about themselves; it breaks my heart in pieces to watch people in pain, knowing I can't do much about it except post what comfort I can give others, because I know how it is, I've been there.
But, I won't lie to people, and tell them things that give false hope; I will always try to post good hope right along with whatever else I know I need to be honest about; and pray when it's all done.
I used to have people tell me a great many negative things way back in the day, as I don't "fit" a certain view of what a christian is supposed to "look" like; and no kidding, I was told several times I will go to Hell, because I wear britches(of course, that made me mad at the time,LOL))....look, all of you, I smoke cigarettes, I drive a truck for a living; I've often felt many times that I never deserved a fraction of what He gave me to use; but I have been what He has chosen to use..and it has always amazed me. :)
You tell people you believe in God, and most automatically assume you're a Bible beating judgmental sort of a person, who sets themselves high above others, and I do NOT do that to people.
I see that HeartsBlessing responded already. I’m sorry don’t have time to read it in detail. I was actually supposed to use part of my time at the computer to review the houses before going downstairs for my exercise and I instead spent it reading this thread! But it was fun.
I simply went and copied my LBS Journey Article from the self focus section to further help people with their understanding of the journey at hand.
OK, Thundarr, catch my next post. :)
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Thundarr,
So, my question to HB and all is whether or not I'm doing wrong by choosing to go ahead and be her friend. My training would definitely reinforce the belief that partners must be friends first and foremost, but as I've said many times rules sometimes don't apply in this. My logic is not only my training but the fact that she IS still being a parent (limited and under my supervision, granted) and is not subjecting me to outright abuse or an OM at this time at least. I've heard several say that she has to "miss me" and having us do family things together would certainly lessen that, but can it really hurt if I steel myself to prevent a cycle down?
If you can do it employing detachment without expectations it would be fine, BUT I really don't believe you can pull this aspect off, Thundarr..still, it's not up to me, it's up to YOU.
You can only do what YOU feel, and for that you didn't need to ask for MY advice; I get total silence, which means it's up to YOU. :)
So, do what you feel is right, Thundarr; you know her, I don't, plus, you know what you can handle; and He really isn't telling me anything at the moment on you.
It's up to you...
Not much help, but you did ask. :)
Have a good one. :)
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From HB's post on Feb. 4
Looking within yourself is one of the HARDEST things anyone can do or ever will do. I can't tell you where to start, as everyone is different, but you can start by looking in the mirror of self-honesty; UNCOVER that mirror and look hard. Anyone who says they have NEVER made ANY mistakes in their lives is LYING to themselves AND to everyone else who knows and loves them.
Be prepared to "sort" out what you see with someone you trust who understands what you are doing. A Sounding Board is really important, someone who will be honest, and straightforward; helping you to begin see the areas of change that are needed within you; also they can help you effect those changes, making them permanent.
This is important work on yourself; DON'T NEGLECT IT, don't skip over it, thinking it's not important.
In time, as you progress, you will see yourself as you really are, seeing some VERY hurtful things, things you will NOT like.
I have a friend I am working with who got the BD over 4 months ago. First, I gave her a copy of Conway's book so she would understand a little about MLC. Then, I gave her the addy to the site's resources. She has read a lot, but she does not want to join the board yet. She has not grasped the concept of mirror work yet. She believes that everything is HIS problem and how HE looks at the marriage. She does know he is in MLC.
The reason I am bringing this up is because I keep reminding her of some of the things her H said in his "crazy" statements... too many questions, nagging, not being able to forgive, control... He listed those things over the past few months (many times more than once). When I bring up her needing to stop asking questions.. she questions me (Why should I not be able to ask what I want to know?). When I bring up her having to let him go to make his own mistakes, she doubts him (But he has never been able to make good decisions.). When I bring up not worrying about the OW, she doubts me (I want to contact her. I don't know if I can forgive this. If the shoe were on the other foot, he would not forgive me.). Her need to be in control of everything is soooo strong. She has a lot of mirror work to do, but is still so concentrated on what he is doing or what he is going to do that she cannot grasp the importance of her own journey.
When I tell her things that I see in her that he has brought up, she thinks I am being mean. I tell her that I am not trying to be mean or hurtful, and I try to help her understand that these are things she will need to work on. If not for her restored marriage, then for her next relationship, and for her to be able to become the person she is supposed to be. I get.. Why do I have to change? There is nothing wrong with me. He is the one with the problem... She is fighting her own journey.
Some people will not work on themselves even when they are shown their own R flaws. Some people run from themselves just as their MLCer is running. Some people have a problem with looking inside and seeing that THEY also need to change. I can say that working on myself has been on the of blessings of this whole mess. The gift of time is such a true statement. We have this gift... what will we do with it?
Just my observation..
Summer 8)
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Summer
Your friend may not be ready to start her mirror work yet or understand it. She is very early in her journey and is still hurt and angry plus shocked at what has happened.
I believe that our mirror work evolves for each of us in our own time. We an support others but only when they are ready.
My major mirror work was undertaken 2 years after BD, although I had done small amounts leading up to that time. But we all undertake it when our psychi is ready. For some it maybe months and others years. The deeper we dig the painful things can be and early on IMO we would find it to hurtful.
Some LBS never complete the necessary mirror work either because they don't believe they should or because what they need to do is so painful they never reach the end where there is peace and understanding.
Just my thoughts on our journey as an LBS.
xx
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.Thanks Thundarr for starting this up and good to see (sorry for the sitches of course) some of you jumping on board here. Dang man, you ruined my total image of wrestling. Now I feel like a kid who just found out that the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause is not real. Real downer dude...LOL.
I guess we could always ask John Stossel......
L
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Great John Stossel reference, L!!
Funny bit of trivia here about that - the wrestler who hit him was "Dr. D" David Schulz, who left wrestling shortly after that and went into truck driving. My previous career was manager of a tire chain and one day I was at our truck tire center and thought the driver getting his tire fixed looked really familiar. Guess who it was? It was Dr. D!!! That's his real name and when he signed the invoice I almost freaked out. I kept thinking that this guy main-evented against Hulk Hogan at Madison Square Garden and now he's getting his tire fixed at one of my stores. I still remember the moment vividly.
Yes, I'm a geek and I grew up watching wrestling (and still do).
Anyway, back to MLC madness.
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Summer and all.
With regard to your comments on 'mirror work'...
When you bring up the need to do 'mirror work' and then you say that MLC is not her fault, her H would have gone through MLC anyway, it just is contradictory. Especially if it is mentioned at the same time.
I know I have flaws to work on, I am quick to anger, I took things for granted, I focused a lot of energy on making sure our financial budget is adhered to.... I didnt exercise enough etc... all are flaws that I can easily work on.
But when you bring those up at the SAME time as speaking about the MLCer and what he/she has done, it DOES sound mean. I know it' not your intention, but I can see how it can be taken.
I think what she needs now is someone to listen and understand her, not tell her - her own flaws.
When I just got the BD, my MLCer told me ALL my flaws for the past 22 years. Well, it would help if she told me while I was married, and while she still loved me, then I can change. After she told me, I vowed to change.... It was not enough....
When you tell an LBSer, that this MLC is not about them - but then you have to do mirror work and work on yourself... then it IS confusing. EVERYONE has flaws, everyone has mirror work to do - not just the LBSer...
Just my thoughts.
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Hobo
The journey for the MLC is not the spouses fault. It was set up many years before they even met and will happen. But at BD often some of the justifications used will give an insight into 'issues' with the spouse i.e quick to anger. This maybe the first time they have any insight into how that has impacted on their relationship in the marriage. But you are right the crisis is nothing to do with the spouse.
It is never wise to tell the MLCer their flaws early in the crisis as they use that as further justification to leave. But it takes two to make a marriage and their will be elements of her behaviour you may not want back. there are certainly elements of my H behaviour I would no longer accept.
But mirror work is deeper than pointing the visible flaws right. The LBS journey is about reflection, analysis and at times eureka moments. But this work comes when the time is right for the LBS. When they are strong enough to look at their life in the face.
The mirror work is for you not a ploy to get your wife back. It will take you forward into your future and better and happier person whatever the outcome from this journey and crisis.
The Midlife crisis is one journey but the LBS has their journey too which often mirrors the MLCer in finding our own identify again.
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Summer and all.
With regard to your comments on 'mirror work'...
When you bring up the need to do 'mirror work' and then you say that MLC is not her fault, her H would have gone through MLC anyway, it just is contradictory. Especially if it is mentioned at the same time.
I know I have flaws to work on, I am quick to anger, I took things for granted, I focused a lot of energy on making sure our financial budget is adhered to.... I didnt exercise enough etc... all are flaws that I can easily work on.
But when you bring those up at the SAME time as speaking about the MLCer and what he/she has done, it DOES sound mean. I know it' not your intention, but I can see how it can be taken.
I think what she needs now is someone to listen and understand her, not tell her - her own flaws.
When I just got the BD, my MLCer told me ALL my flaws for the past 22 years. Well, it would help if she told me while I was married, and while she still loved me, then I can change. After she told me, I vowed to change.... It was not enough....
When you tell an LBSer, that this MLC is not about them - but then you have to do mirror work and work on yourself... then it IS confusing. EVERYONE has flaws, everyone has mirror work to do - not just the LBSer...
Just my thoughts.
Hobo,
I have struggled with the same thoughts...so you are not alone.
Just like the MLCer - we go through our own "stages." (Just a whole lot quicker - or, maybe not - ;))
Regarding MLC not being the MLCer's "fault." I don't know about that. Everyone has their own challenges and I've yet to find a family that was not dis-functional in one way or another. Most of these MLCer's have siblings who grew up in the same households and with the same parents - but, for one reason or another - these siblings didn't leave their spouses and their families. Or, in some instances, they did.
As RCR points out - the MLCer is still responsible for the things that he/she does. Yes. The person in crisis did not have the coping skills to handle a transition and, thus, the transition turned into a full blown crisis. But, it becomes a crisis due to the MLCers actions. Had the MLCer actually opened his/her mouth and talked about the doubts he/she was having....searched out and found some "help" (and NOT from an Other Person" but from a counselor who understands MLC) maybe things would/could have been different. To say that the MLCer is "not responsible" - is to give them a free pass where all is just forgiven.....
It just doesn't work like that. Not that I know exactly how it works......I seem to have come to an understanding of how it doesn't work. :-\
I got a long list of my "faults" at BD and the 2.5 months between BD and my H's "moving out." Wow! He had a long list! I truly sucked! And, I bought into it! Hook, line and sinker. I spent months feeling very guilty. How I had messed up my marriage, taken away my H's manhood, pushed him away, broken up my family....etc. It's documented pretty well in my early threads. I think this is just part of our journey (and I HATE that word, by the way ;)). Later, I was able to separate the "spewing" from the truth. Yes. There are issues that I have and that I am addressing. But, was I the Ogre my H spoke about? No. I wasn't. Actually, I am a pretty nice person.......if I don't have to say so myself. (I guess I have to say so myself :-[)
After BD, I tried to make all the changes my H had commented on - overnight, by the way. You know what I got? Too little, too late. NOW, I wanted to fix myself! (I think many of us have received the same feedback). The mistake was doing it for HIM. He was just trying to justify his actions - to relieve his guilt. If it is all my fault, it can't be his, right? He didn't break up his family....I was impossible to live with. This is just part of the MLC spew......that surrounds some truth. The trick, for the LBS, is to go through that spew and find the truth...and address those issues WE believe that we need to address. And toss the rest out....because much of it is bull-oney!
No. Their crisis is about THEM. Our situation, is about US. Look at your relationship. Take away the blinders or the rose colored glasses. When I look at my relationship (and past relationships) - I find that I am attracted to lost souls. Why? Why is this? I got married young (20) and had only had one other relationship, prior to marrying my spouse. Both of these men (children??) - were lost souls........having issues that they needed to address - but didn't. My first boyfriend had abandonment issues (his mother had abandoned the family and gone back to a previous relationship???? - MLC, anyone???) - and, thus, my first boyfriend had commitment issues - always looking for someone to make him feel better about himself. My H has a Narcisistic mother.......and addiction issues. Hmmmm... Two for two. These are choices that I made.....Why? Something that I need to look at.
I also found that I had a deep need to control......(which, in reality, I had NO control). This is something that goes into my other relationships - including those with my children). Yes. I need to address these, and I am.
But, these things are separate from H's issues.....He ran away and is avoiding dealing with his. I can't help him. He's on his own. I just need to leave him to it. Is there damage from his actions? Yes. And this is damage that HE will need to address.
I need to be the best ME I can - for myself and my kids......He is on his own.
Does that mean that I don't care for him or about him? No. It doesn't. I certainly don't want to see him fall apart and lose everything. But, I have zero control over that...... Letting go and letting go of (perceived) control are HUGE for me.
I know it all sounds like a contradiction.....very confusing. But, it is the old double edged sword. Our strengths can also be our weaknesses, if we allow ourselves to take them to an extreme.
Now...I am just babbling.
Sorry.
L
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TB...maybe they are just saying to look at yourself and own any part you had in this...that will take time..on the other hand you didn't deserve this ..nor did your kids..you were 'good enough' as is for a long time..now if you think it neccessary to make changes..they should be for you...no one else..and as for the RAS ..they avoid mirrors...rely on other people and 'things' for their self worth..pretty lame and shallow..thats how you got here lol...I will never truly in my soul understand or accept or even forgive..but I will continue with my life.. raise my children..and not aspire to more..I find comfort in that..acceptance...no more fighting or hoping..she went to work and didn't come home..its sudden and complete..when I look in the mirror..their is still a scar..a big ugly one..only I see it...so I dont play with it too much
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Wow, Rover, very poignant and direct as always. Very well put. But you need to bring your Alf icon back. It's just not the same without it. Also there is someone here who writes with your same style (Wondering I think(. You two should meet.
Anyone remember the MLC woman I met with a couple months ago? I met with her first ex on Friday and he described MLC perfectly in speaking of her. "Chasing happiness, running away, etc.". He said he came home to a nearly empty house with only a table and a dryer left. He soon discovered OM and she married him less than a year later. Now she's left him and chased happiness all the way across the country. What really resonated with me though is how he said he'd take her back even today. "I'll love her forever. You can't really stop after being with someone for so long. Maybe she'll wake up and come home someday. I hope she does.". He has no clue about my sitch, and probably thought the tear in my eyes was for his. He's a tough war vet, btw, and almost broke down when he said he probably won't live long enough to see her come home. Really really sad.
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I got a long list of my "faults" at BD and the 2.5 months between BD and my H's "moving out." Wow! He had a long list! I truly sucked! And, I bought into it! Hook, line and sinker. I spent months feeling very guilty. How I had messed up my marriage, taken away my H's manhood, pushed him away, broken up my family....etc. It's documented pretty well in my early threads. I think this is just part of our journey (and I HATE that word, by the way ;)). Later, I was able to separate the "spewing" from the truth. Yes. There are issues that I have and that I am addressing. But, was I the Ogre my H spoke about? No. I wasn't. Actually, I am a pretty nice person.......if I don't have to say so myself. (I guess I have to say so myself :-[)
Hobo and Limitless both make good points (and Limitless I am in your boat about not being too fond of the word journey for the LBS either). Though I do like RCR's article on Progress....Back Limbo Forward, about the MLCer's journey.
As far as the term "mirror work".....I don't use it. I see how it can imply fault on the part of the LBS for the crisis. And there is no fault of the LBS for the crisis. The crisis is a maturation process stemming from unresolved issues or lack of development from childhood (coping skills probably being at the top of the list).
I'm ok with the terms "focusing on Self" or "working on Self". As I was told early on by both my counselor and by Jim Conway's information, what the LBS is really doing is getting their focus off the MLCer. If you focus on the actions and behaviors of the MLCer....you will get driven batty.....and you will have a very difficult time detaching. A lot of LBS are understandably concerned about the OM/OW. I learned that it really is true that the MLCer is unable to maintain a relationship with anyone. When they are, it is my belief that there is a very good chance it will be with the LBS.....if the LBS is still available and wants to reconcile....which in many cases they are not available or do not want to.
Below is a piece from RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time. It's a reminder that despite what your MLCer is trying to get you to believe (Projection), the crisis is not the LBS fault, nor is the crisis because of a bad marriage.
"Though no one is perfect, in the beginning you will search your own behaviour for what went wrong. Since the MLCer often offers a long list of your transgressions, it is not a difficult search. In the beginning, many LBS's accept this blame, using it as the excuse for the bad marriage. For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis. Some of the MLCer complaints are valid. Listen, validate and affirm, and then filter what feels valid to you. This crisis is not your fault; it would have happened regardless of your behaviour."
Like Limitless and most of the rest of us, at bomb drop I heard about my faults. I will confess that even at bomb drop, the things my MLCer said sounded absurd to me. They were certainly not reasons to end a marriage. Below is a piece from RCR's Standing article Clarifying the Concept II that would sum up how I felt. I recognized the absurdity of what my MLCer was saying.
"Some LBSs recognize the MLCer's arguments and behavior as so absurd that they believe this cannot be real--it won't last forever even if it lasts for a few years. Some Stand because when a spouse says it is over it may not seem as though it is over--he may not seem as though he means it, or he may seem to mean it at that moment, but his behaviors has been changing and the messages are mixed."
So that's what I feel about "mirror work", or as I would prefer "focusing on the Self".
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Excellent DGU. I think I will take your position as it is in line with how I see that as well. All good and insightful posts today.
I do have a question, though trivial, concerning the spelling of "behavior" in the first article. Was it not written by RCR? Thanks!
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DGU got me thinking ??? I actually liked the term 'mirror work' bc I've found most people I encounter like me and want to be around me ;D But my H ran to get away from me.... ??? By looking in the mirror I could start to find 'blemishes' that were like defects in my personality actually thwarting a pleasant R with my H... ::)
That plus he had NO COPING SKILLS. Zero Zilch Nada Nunca Zippo ::) Goose egg...
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my faults...hmm...trying to pick out from the screams...kinda hard..'you forgot about me'..'weren't there for me'...'shattered my self esteem'..'put me on the curb with a sign around my neck'..and in the divorce affidavit...'crisis oriented and non foward thinking'..'forgetful and disorganized..left the gate open and dog got out and was hit by a car' (I swear)..'moody'...oh well...truth is she didn't really tell me much...oh..and I forgot the classic 'controlling,jealous and manipulative'...
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So Rover she projected onto you, which they all do.
Unfortunately for me, during the worst monster period and even now he had some valid points. NOT total truths by the way and none divorce worthy really. But hey this is why it's a crisis. Oh and my favourite was 'you didn't smile at me once when I came home' oh yeah that's sane.
To be honest I hope you never understand full as it means you have been there yourself and it is a highly unpleasant experience. Highly, highly. Oh it words just aren't enough, nd mine was hormone induced NOT the same although some behaviours were very similar t those on here.
And even certain things Dearheart has said as although I thought them I never said them to him,yet here they come out of his mouth.
I hope you reach a point of true forgiveness Rover, just for you, so that scar you see isn't so raw to touch. It won't ever disappear totally but without forgiveness it will allow things to fester. You sound so new at this I'm sorry if I have missed your BD length but hope should be for you and a better future with or witout your spouse. You should aspire to happiness even without er. What makes you afraid to aspire to leading a great lif alone or with your children?
Why won't you?
It sounds and I may have read it wrong because she left your life is now on hold of some form? that you will settle for lessthen a fulfilling life, and that my friend will be cheating yourself and your children.
Take care
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new?..lol..no...3.5 years into her mlc..3 since betrayal..(that I know of)...2.5 separated and 13 months divorced..forgiveness isn't on my agenda..and how can I forget..no..I will always be watching for her to decompensate again..my kids know to bail out if she ever gets that way again..my life isn't on hold..I go forth every day..its just that I accepted it..and I have a destination..takes alot off the table..a lot less worries..I have a social life..friends..I date and even get laid on occasion..but I never bond..and thats both instinct and choice..I had a life and a marriage..thats behind me now..my recovery wasn't about replacing what was gone..it was about facing the loss and the realization that is all there is..after awhile..its ok..you don't want anymore..you just keep going..everybody is different..I don't wait for the big R and I don't wish for another..my only goal or resonsibility is to my kids..and with 50% custody..I have meaning..the every other weekend dad thing would have killed me.
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Ah I didn't mention forgetting. And she never has to know that you forgive her.
I will tell you something for free, if you don't forgive her for your own sake, you will not be truly happy.
I am not talking about to date fall in love or have another relationship, never mentioned it.
You sound bitter which is why I thought you were at the beginning. So sue me lol.
You won't forget. It happened and it leaves a change on you forever, and forgiveess is for you not them.
If you are truly happy where you are go for it, if you aren't happy then honey, you have a long way to go. Because 2 years in I am happy I would lie it to have been different but for the most part I am happy. He couldn't make me happy, I had to learn to make myself happy.
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Its called PTES...something Thundarr and I coined after one of the X's drivebys at L2..lol...actually I don't sit around and bash love,women or marriage..I still believe in those things...its just that I accepted it wasn't meant to be..and to me..to forgive would be to forget..and I can't..I will never know when she will step off the cliff again and I must always be ready to intervene
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Rover bitter? He actually has a bitterness disorder named after him (according to his ex-W. lol).
Actually, although he may sound very stoic and embittered, I know for a fact that he finds joy in his children and is completely dedicated to them. No intention of making them split his energy with someone else who isn't their parent. I respect that and may go that direction myself if things don't work out between W and I. And I want to give props where they're due here. Early on (I mean VERY early on, meaning when I first found LifeTwo), Rover smacked me around and drilled into my head to protect the kids at all costs and that my W was a danger to them. I thought he was completely nuts at first (still do sometimes, haha) but will never forget how he helped me through that first terrible stage and lead me to fighting for the right to see my kids every day. Almost 9 months in and I can honestly say there has not been a day gone by that I have not spent at least part of it with them. They are my salvation and the oasis in this terrible storm for me, just as I am for them. Together we will make it, and hopefully W will come along to join the party.
I have another question for everyone here now that that's out of the way. A friend on another thread posed the question to me that since there is no definite OM in my W's life and that she did not try to screw me over in any way financially (at least not yet on both) then is it possible that she is going through a transition and just wanted a change? I know it seems I've asked this question ad nauseum, but what exactly makes her situation a "crisis"? Yes she's said some crazy things, and the demonic laugh and all, but she seems in line with Shantilly's accounts of just wanting to run away and not necessarily into the arms of an OM. 9 months in and I'm still unclear where they line is that makes this a crisis for her and not just a transition. I know the terminology like RCR mentioned so it IS a transition, but is it REALLY a crisis?
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'stoic'...and 'resolute'..lol...thats me..I think the difference between Mid Life Changes and Mid Life Crisis is their actions...we aren't talking about someone trying out new directions or intersts her (god I wish)..no we are talking about destruction of marriages,families,relationships,finances and their children's lives..and without mercy or remorse...like a loose cannon in a storm they wreak havoc all around...everyone may pause,reassess and process...not everyone does this..
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Thundarr
Rover said it well.....though remorse typically does eventually come, but not until toward the end of the crisis.
Conway differentiates by whether they stray from their core values with their actions and behaviors. Conway himself is a good example in my opinion. I believe he went through a transition that did not reach a crisis level. He did not leave the marital bedroom (he did not abandon his spouse) and he did not have an affair.
From RCR's Overview article:
Key Components of a Midlife Crisis
•Depression - Covert & Overt
•The Urge to Abandon
•Infidelity
•Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
•Personality Changes or Mood Swings
•Depression
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yes my X had all the signs and more..lets say I got the deluxe version of mood swings and rage..as for remorse..I think maybe..a little ..but more likely that her plans failed..her BF dumped her after she pillaged the kids college fund post divorce...what an idiot..doc has mentioned an alien spaceship landing when they want to reconcile..I will just assume its Martians and head for the bunker..
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So, do all the elements have to be there? I am not certain of any infidelities, although an EA is very likely. My actions would need to be the same either way I would imagine, but surprisingly the thought that this was a logical decision on her part leaves me with even less hope. It makes me wonder if my transition will now begin and if I must resolve to either accept a life alone as Rover has or begin to ponder connecting with another. I know what I want, but part of the change in me over the past few months has been the realization that you can get what you want but not necessarily what you most want.
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Rover, where is the Alf icon? I need you to have that. lol
And where is Doc? I have no way of contacting him as he never registered at LT, but we would all love to have him here I'm sure.
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dunno how to reach doc..maybe he will find us..as for your stbx..set aside how she has treated you..take that out of the equation..look very clearly how she has treated your kids..that should be very defining..not only in what you are facing but what is going on with her..and where this is headed
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I feel so nekkid without Alf
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I doubt all the elements have to be there, but I think most of the usually are......they are the key symptoms. I don't so much use the term logical vs illogical to describe MLC behavior as much as I use rational vs irrational.
I may have posted this earlier in this thread, but I don't remember. This is from RCR's MLC Overview article
There are many who witness the Cycling and Chaotic behaviour and conclude that Midlifers know exactly what they are doing. Since the behaviour cycles, there are pockets of rationale and clarity. Some are able to compartmentalize their lives, functioning at work and other activities away from the home. It is not that the Midlifers do not care, but rather that they must shield themselves from caring. They feel they must do whatever it is they are doing even when internally admitting it is wrong. They steel themselves emotionally; but they are not without guilt; rather I believe that for many it is the opposite. Their guilt is so immense that the burden is overwhelming. They are running from the demons within themselves and from the burdening reminders of guilt from the spouse, whether she is actively laying guilt or not. In addition, OWs add guilt by forcing responsibility for their happiness and success on the midlifer, and then by punishing him when he cycles between her and his wife.
Midlifers are not always aware of their actions. There is an awareness within each moment, but a global absence of awareness; this only becomes clear later. Driven by emotions, Midlifers are moment and self focused and often unable to link consequences and understand the relation of their behaviour to the external world. Their memory becomes fuzzy; though they may be aware of their actions during each present moment, in clarity they may not recall what takes place during fog and vice versa.
Large chunks of time are holistically blank. There may be a memory of certain events within those chunks, but the external relation to the world is lost. Events are not linked solidly to other things and thus may have no chronological placement. Time is a tangled string that rather than linear.
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Mid Lifer thinking..I can't argue with that..there were times I was very aware she was irrational..in my opinion ,my X danced on the edge of psychosis at times...
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Same with my W, Rover, as you well know.
Speaking of whom, she came over for the SuperBowl and hung around until after we ate. I asked her to bring nothing, but she did bring S7 and I a piece of cake. She indulged in all the food and praised me several times for how good it was, but kept saying she couldn't eat much as she did not want to gain weight. She sat in her old spot on the couch but kep offering to give it to me, maybe so we would not be beside each other. D19 was real upset about her bf and always turns to W for comfort and W did at least go through the motions.
Don't know if it's because it's SuperBowl Sunday or I'm just used to it, but nothing bothered me tonight. I treated her like a guest and kept telling myself that we're just friends. Maybe this us what a regular breakup is like? Rider reminded me about no expectations and it really helped. I have no W now and maybe it's finally sunk in. If I have found peace then this has been a great weekend.
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Nice avatar!
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Thundarr ...
Seriously dude. That is a very --- avatar. Hey, not that there's anything wrong with that! [Seinfeld reference]
Plus, my W's OM wishes he looked like that! [give that he's supposedly ---!!]
OMG, I'm having too good of a time.
Sorry about the Pats T. >:(
Let's hope for a good week ahead.
Rider
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Thundarr ... you could tone that down by putting cartoon Thundarr in same pic as a cartoo Princess Ariel! She's is pretty hot, you know. BTW ... I know this because of Google!
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Lol!!! I picked it because it really looks like me, except for the furry vest.
Actually, the furry vest might be the only part that DOES look like me. And btw, TB sent me that pic. Maybe he sensed something. Maybe we should try it out. If I meet a 35 year-old guy then I should.get at least 15 good years out of him before he goes nuts. And if I find someone my own size then my wardrobe doubles. Just a thought....
Too much fun here too!
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Google? Would you be ashamed to actually LIKE the greatest cartoon ever?
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every one knows that Jonny Quest and Rocky and Bullwinkle were the best ever
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Rider just sent me a ton of Thundarr pics and some of them rock. I'm starting to think TB sent me the ------ Thundarr pic he could find. Thanks...
And I agree on Rocky and Bullwinkle, but mainly because Natasha was smoking hot. She could give Daphne from Scooby-Doo a run for her money.
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I'm begining to understand your wife..
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LMAO!!! The LT humor has officially arrived!!
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Dudes. ... the LT boys r going to get banned, me thinks. ;-)
btw. ... Daphne rocks.
EDIT - WHY? - OP
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OP ... not typically a blonde kind of uy, but I liked her strawberry blonde hair.
On the other hand, Natasha was kind of anorexic and evil. Too close to MLC I guess!!
Rider
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sigh..won't be the first time..
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on a serious note..just discovered divoce cakes..ok..some are funny but overall..this is pretty tacky..no wonder its so simple..
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Fyi, from the Mission Statement for this board:
We make no judgments; all are welcome. This is a place of love and support, not a place to degrade and insult others—including your MLC spouse.
Though heavily influenced by Christianity, people of all Faiths are welcome.
Though most of us are heterosexual, we do not discriminate based on sexual orientation.
Here is a link to the full Mission Statement:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1146.0
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Thundarr--
Just throwing this out there....
I would say that what makes your wife's situation a crisis is the way she has abandoned her children. She hasn't cut them off 100%, but she has hurt them with her extreme impatience and self-centeredness (children need adults for parents) and she moved out. What kind of mother does that? One in a crisis--unless, of course, you can say that she always felt this way about her kids and treated them with such disregard. No? Then this is a 180, right?
Further, remember, MLC is NOT the same as an affair, and an affair is not the only hallmark of crisis. The beginning of any EA/PA is not the beginning of MLC, nor is the end of same relationship (I use the word loosely) the end of MLC.
Talk amongst yourselves.
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what he said...an affair..yes or no ...is the least of your worries
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Happy to say the blonde is out of my wifes hair (Finally! The front half of her head had been blond since Jul '09 around the start of her EA, and mixed with either blue, purple or pink). She is working a lot more now too. Two years now, our old home has been for sale-hope the buyer sale happens quicker than the foreclosure. Even more so than in my last update she has reverted to her old self, although some new traits acquired during her MLC still linger.
For the HS people who don't know me, I am a MLC survivor. From bomb drop to reconcile was 11 mos. (Nov '09-Sept '10). There was an OM and the affair went from EA to PA. We separated and lived apart for 7 mos. but with circumstances, determination and playing the game right, it all worked out
This sounds very similar to my situation. We were separated for over a year, though I didn't know it because I was home taking care of my mother, who was in the final stage of cancer. Can we say D E N I A L... yea, that was me, never even considered the possibility of ANOTHER PERSON!!!! :o :o
Now, the fact that we were only SEPARATED for about a year, my h had definitely been in CRISIS, for years and year. Approximately 5 years, then we moved to Europe, had a lovely almost 3 year, HONEYMOON. When son was preparing to leave us for University, mothers illness and the marriages of our 2 oldest children within a couple of months of each other... he quietly SLIPPED OFF the edge into deep, deep crisis.
The years prior to MLC crept in so quietly, so stealthily, only knowing what I know now, am I able to realize that it really did happen. Our marriage had been an interesting one. His military career dictated an independence from the children and I that is not as prevalent in the more typical 9-5 type marriages. I thought our lifestyle had created a healthy awareness of each other and respect for each other, as the necessity to be a "good" team was essential for the continuation of a healthy, functional home and family.
Apparently midlife crisis knows no bounds. It swept through our home and lives slowly, yet systematically, creating havoc and discontent in it's wake. Truly, I had arrived at the point that our marriage had always been less then satisfactory, that he had always been domineering and controlling, as we tippy toed around the progressively easier to irritate dad/husband.
I became convinced that this was the "doom" that struck all marriages of long duration. I rationalized that of course, time eventually, reduced ALL marriages to this boring, uncomfortable type of existence. In my heart though, I had NEVER expected that to happen to us. Sure, we had lots of ups and downs. WE were / are passionate people, both of us stand up for what we believe, value... that is who we are/ were. Those 5 years, not anymore. I was no longer ENTITLED to an opinion. I was lazy. I was letting myself go, slip into OLD AGE. I wasn't honouring my promise to find a "good/proper" job. There wasn't TOO MUCH, that I did right, tbh!
Looking back, all of it was TYPICAL MLC.
Depending on how long your wife had been in crisis before you separated, I believe it is POSSIBLE that she is coming out of her CRISIS. If she is like my h though, I would say that she is probably not OUT COMPLETELY...
My h and I reconnected way too soon, in my opinion. He was at the very end of his crisis. I basically had to carry, beat him up, cuddle him, cajole him... force him to FINISH what he had started. There were some WONDERFUL times even though the situation itself was excruciatingly painful. Many, many times, I would retreat to our bedroom with the intent of packing my bags. Many a walk I trod, trying to figure out how to EXTRACT myself from this miserable situation I had inadvertently subjected myself.
All I know STP... don't let her away with anything. Your MLC partner must stand totally accountable for every last, miserable act they perpetrated against ourselves, our children, family, friends. THEY MUST accept what they did, how it had EFFECTED everybody and totally OWN it. If they do not, I am not sure they ever completely heal and I doubt that we EVER would/could heal, and forgive (completely).
A healthy, happy, contented marriage/relationship is possible. In fact, the rumours are true, BETTER, then before... way better. I could expand on this, but all of you would say, "hold on there Stayed, let's not go that far.... because nothing could EVER make what we have gone through, worth the pain". You would not believe me, if I told you, YOU ARE WRONG! It was worth it!
hugs Stayed
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Time for new thread
Link to new thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2119.new#new