Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Rollercoasterider on February 25, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
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The Mentor Team has been discussing things we can do to improve the Mentor Program. We are kicking a few ideas around the brainstorm and this thread is one of the best ideas. I don't know how it will evolve and so this will be a test for the first little bit.
Post links to your threads or to information on another thread if they are relevant. If something goes off tangent, we may split those posts away into a Topic thread--nothing wrong with that, it's how some topics get started!
Edit: I think it may also be a good idea if you are responding to Start your post with the Reply # and Display Name from the post to which you are responding. I suggest you include the Display Name because we might come through and clean up unnecessary posts from time-to-tim and the Reply# will then change. If you are posting a new question, say that at the beginning.
So your opening will liook like one of these two things:
Replay# X, Kikki
OR
New Question
It will give an opportunity for you to interact with someone other than your assigned mentor and to have quick questions asked--maybe like an FAQ. It may also be a good way to let a mentor know that you need attention. The mentors also liked it because they can pop-in quickly and look here to see if any matters are pressing.
I would also like to come up with a better system to match mentors to mentees. Now, though I sometimes notice a fit, I usually go down the list and see who has the fewest mentees and assign that way--not very personal. :P So this may or may not help newbies get to know each mentor's style--we will see.
Either way, I'm excited about it! 8) ;D
So ask away...
I may edit this introduction as we tinker with this thread direction.
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Hi all. Just to help clarify, the mentors wanted to have a place where new members to the forum, and anyone else with a question, could post and be assured of receiving a response from one or more mentors. So you can post a question directly here on this thread, or post a link to your own thread if you would like a mentor to visit and comment on your current situation. And of course others can post here with their own insights as well. It does sound exciting! So feel free to jump in here and the mentors will do their best to help you out. :)
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I think that is a great idea. Being new I feel like I have so many questions and sometimes there are just too many posts and mine get lost. That being said I am so lost right now bd was only 6 months ago h goes back and forth between clinging to me and talking about the future to telling me he's in love with ow and it's too painful to be away from her. I am stuck right now because my kids don't know and I won't let them know until the school year is over. Do I keep letting him know that I know he's still with her and that he's committing adultery, do I ignore it? We are still sleeping in the same bed and carry on like a married couple. He's gets upset when I'm distant but I'm am so anxious and don't know what to do or how to respond to him. He's so emotional and cries easily and then I want to protect him (as usual)
He also wants to sell our house for something more manageable which I don't necessarily disagree with but I'm not sure if this is the right time. We looked at a few houses and he talks like he will be living there but I'm not sure if he's just looking for something he could afford if he leaves.
EDIT - Answered JA post #3
XYZCF post #5 - OldPilot
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KS
You are so close to BD that your H is swirling and unsure. Unfortunately as he moves further into the tunnel he will draw farther away from you. At the moment he is making sure you are there but also telling OW he loves her. Look at the info RCR has written about the first part of the journey before BD. I think it will help. My H although he had left, also gave me hope he would come home straight away by cycling fast. He has been gone a while now.
You have to look at what you need t protect yourself. The distance you are struggling to find is to protect yourself. Again read RCR info about how to treat your MLCer. You will find what is the right way forward for you. Your H needs to know you don't accept his adultery. But as hard as it is this should be said calmly and without anger. There will be times when you are able to say it.
At this time you need to look after you. Decide if it is right to move house or stay. What if he didn't move with you and you were left trying to move etc? This has happened many times on the forum. Remember MLCers plan for their future with OW.
XX
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Great idea for the Newbies. I know when I first started here, I would keep hitting the "Show new replies to your posts" button over and over and over, hoping somebody had seen my post. I usually didn't have too long to wait, but when you're still in shock, every moment seemed like an eternity. Thanks for coming up with an innovative way to catch attention quickly. Kudos to the Mentors.
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Keepsmiling..I copied your request onto your thread and posted a reply there. We are still in the growing pahses of how this will best work.
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Looking for some fresh insight in my situation. Any and all help will be appreciated. I have included a link to my thread below.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2214.10
EDIT - Answered by READY on thread. - OldPilot
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This may sound silly but I don't have a mentor and if I do I am not sure who it is.
Maybe I could get help with that one
Thanks!
Sorry if off topic...
EDIT - Sent a PM about this - OldPilot
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I think this is a good thread and until we get really sophisticated and can add a chat line with different mentors available for certain hours of the day or week, it is a good idea.
i know how newbies feel waiting for their first response. You feel so alone and insecure, yet when you get your first response, it is like..."someone actually cares.
Have a good one!
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If any mentor has the time, I would mind some insight. Kind of feel a bit in the dark at present. I'm feeling more at peace with life as it is but I wonder where H is at? I know that shouldn't be my focus but it does unnerve me somewhat.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2193.0
EDIT - Answered by limitless Post #10 - OldPilot
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If any mentor has the time, I would mind some insight. Kind of feel a bit in the dark at present. I'm feeling more at peace with life as it is but I wonder where H is at? I know that shouldn't be my focus but it does unnerve me somewhat.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2193.0
Still Praying,
Quite honestly, you really won't know "where your H is at" - until you are looking in the rear view mirror. As RCR writes in her articles - Replay is resilient - and just when you think they may be leaving Replay - they head back for it with a vengance.....as they are still looking for an easy fix and Replay helps them to avoid. Also, the MLCers can run - even though the alienator is gone....sometimes they go looking for another one (my H has done this twice) - as the MLCer is still in crisis.
I know this isn't what you want to hear (it wasn't what I wanted to hear) - but stop watching your H and wondering where he is....(it's most likely still in Replay......but again - you really don't know....until much later). Focus on yourself and your family - what you need to do for YOU.
Sorry...I know that wasn't the answer that you wanted.
Hugs,
limitless
EDIT - Two notes but I agree with the above. REPLAY/ end of OW is not the end of the crisis. So he may be out of REPLAY and headed into OW Withdrawal, but it sounds like he is still in escape and avoid mode, and still not headed back towards you. You will only really be able to know this much later down the road, when you are able to look backwards. Even if he is done with REPLAY your actions do not change. _ OldPilot
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This is such a good idea. This way nobody will be missed.
hugs Stayed
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I agree with Stayed.
People have from time to time told me they felt badly not having any responses.
If that happens to anyone on their regular thread, please don't feel badly nor take it personally. Its just a busy place sometimes and sometimes hard to keep up!
Bon
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I feel this is a great Idea. Im too new to this but I have at times felt that my thread was overlooked. When I come here to post it is with the hope that someone will respond. I feel that it is just not the newbies that look for guidance.
I have felt dissapointment when I post and there were no response and I had to ask others to look at it.
I don't believe that the time you are involved in MLC changes that fact that you need to come here, vent, ask questions, get support or just know that someone is listening.
I am sorry at the recent events that has caused some to decide to leave the board. I hope that in the future these wonderful people will come back. They have always had great insight, advise and shown a great deal of love.
Thank you RCR, for this great idea. It will make a difference in so many.
C
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Confused,
I feel this is a great Idea. Im too new to this but I have at times felt that my thread was overlooked. When I come here to post it is with the hope that someone will respond. I feel that it is just not the newbies that look for guidance.
I also think this is a good idea....We are glad you find it a positive addition to the site.
I have felt dissapointment when I post and there were no response and I had to ask others to look at it.
As Bon Bon said, please do not take this personally. There are more people coming to the site each day....it is difficult to keep up. Also, asking others specificially for some feedback is not a bad thing. It's okay to reach out.
I don't believe that the time you are involved in MLC changes that fact that you need to come here, vent, ask questions, get support or just know that someone is listening.
Actually, with time...detachment and acceptace does come (I hope eventually for ME ;)) - you will learn to trust your own intuition and decisions more. You also come to a point where you are not as deeply affected by the actions of your MLCer. Again, this doesn't happen overnight. It comes, as OP states, in layers.
That doesn't mean we don't feel the need to vent and share with others...But, quite honestly, not as much as in the beginning. Anyway, that is how it was for me. Others may feel differently.
Hugs,
L
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Hi Kathy SB,
Fyi here is the response to your original post from OldPilot:
EDIT - I hope you don't mind kathy but I am splitting this off the Mentor thread and creating your own thread.
This way we will assign you your own personal mentor, but feel free to continue to ask questions.
OldPilot
Here is the link to your own personal thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2231.0
Welcome. :)
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Limitless and OP.
Thank you. Please don't apologise. I just want to hear the truth.
Thanks.
It helps a lot.
SP
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Questions:
I have been divorced now for 16 months (BD 28 months). It took nearly two years for my exH to get the bulk of his personal belongings from the house. I still have items in the storage unit plus 3 boxes of clothes, books, framed items and other miscellaneous items that belongs to him. I have mentioned these things to him on several occasions..........it's been at least 2 to 3 months since the last time. He makes no attempts to get the rest of his stuff.
My questions: Should I bring it up again or not? What is the suggested protocol in regards to this type of situation?
EDIT: Answered in LMM's thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1596.msg131359#msg131359 -SS
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Thanks, StillStanding. I replied on my thread. I think this question thing is a very good idea. Keep up the good work LBS'ers!
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I am struggling with what to do about cake eating. H still is home and tells me he loves me and clings to me when I become distant but wont give up the ow because he's in love with her and it hurts too much. I read about boundaries and not being a doormat but I also read that you shouldn't do things too soon after bd which was a little over 6 mths ago. Is it too early to limit my contact (which is hard in the same house)?
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I just wanted to tell all the mentors that I think this thread is an excellent idea, but mostly to thank every single one for all that they do. I have been helped by each and every one throughout and hope to pay it forward someday. I've finally seen positive developments in my sitch but know to play it cool and have no expectations. I thank you guys for opening my eyes so much.
Give each other a pat on the back!!!
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Thanks THundarr.
And KS I copied and answered on your thread.
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Hi Freedom,
Fyi here is the response to your original post from OldPilot:
EDIT - I hope you don't mind Freedom but I am splitting this off the Mentor thread and creating your own thread.
This way we will assign you your own personal mentor, but feel free to continue to ask questions.
OldPilot
Here is the link to your own personal thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2231.0
Welcome :)
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If any mentor has the time, I would mind some insight. Kind of feel a bit in the dark at present. I'm feeling more at peace with life as it is but I wonder where H is at? I know that shouldn't be my focus but it does unnerve me somewhat.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2193.0
Still Praying,
Quite honestly, you really won't know "where your H is at" - until you are looking in the rear view mirror. As RCR writes in her articles - Replay is resilient - and just when you think they may be leaving Replay - they head back for it with a vengance.....as they are still looking for an easy fix and Replay helps them to avoid. Also, the MLCers can run - even though the alienator is gone....sometimes they go looking for another one (my H has done this twice) - as the MLCer is still in crisis.
I know this isn't what you want to hear (it wasn't what I wanted to hear) - but stop watching your H and wondering where he is....(it's most likely still in Replay......but again - you really don't know....until much later). Focus on yourself and your family - what you need to do for YOU.
Sorry...I know that wasn't the answer that you wanted.
Hugs,
limitless
EDIT - Two notes but I agree with the above. REPLAY/ end of OW is not the end of the crisis. So he may be out of REPLAY and headed into OW Withdrawal, but it sounds like he is still in escape and avoid mode, and still not headed back towards you. You will only really be able to know this much later down the road, when you are able to look backwards. Even if he is done with REPLAY your actions do not change. _ OldPilot
CORRECT. It certainly wasn't the end of the crisis. OW is BACK.
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Question for anyone out there that might have some thoughts.
My H seems to be doing a little touch and go in the last few months. The last time was last weekend...stopping by for our sons birthday knowing he would be at my house. To me he was taking a big risk for him..he did not know if there would be any of my family members here. I have not seen him since last April and he hasn't seen any of my family since the year before that.
It has been a year ago this month when he sent me an email saying he was having a hard time confronting what he has done. That was the first and last time he mentioned anything like that.
When he ran he had a good chunk of money at his disposal and with all of the trips h and ow have been on I'm pretty sure it is all gone.
So my question is does this sound like there is movement going on? I don't want to have any expectations just wondering if he is finally making progress. Since I never have contact with him it is hard for me to know.
I went about this question the long way but wanted to give you a little background.
Thanks
Hi...I have posted an answer on your thread http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2182.0
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Regarding Replay--could we break that into two distinct phases, the first one being marked by an almost manic infatuation, and the second part being marked by low energy "clinging" to the OW/OM out of desperation?
Seems like a lot of MLC'ers in Replay are miserable, but continue to exist with the OW/OM, maybe trying desperately to stave off the darkness of liminality, maybe to prove to themselves and others that they've done the right thing leaving their spouse, determined to make this work?
I suppose many will ditch OW/OM1 in pursuit of that infatuation high, not ready to leave Replay, but what about those who seem to eek out a miserable existence with their bottom-of-the-barrel companion?
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I think you see the initial outburst like you have stated. The MLCer is proud of themselves and their newfound "love". After all, they are on a quest to "change" the past and find that "happiness" that fills their world. High energy is extrovert activities and low energy is introverted. One is very active, runs through the money, physical affairs while the other is more emotionally detached, emotionally involved with the other person.
Cali, I think that you made a very astute and logical observation that despite low energy or high energy, the first phase is a distinct eruption. After the initial high, the high energy may leave the alienator and try to come home-hence the clinging boomerang as they go back and forth. The low energy may actually take longer because the emotional bonds and the ability to self-medicate the depression without full involvement creates a huge issue with withdrawal even though on the outside they appear to be the same lifeless and loveless creatures.
Even the vanisher makes a blip on the radar after the high begins to wear off. All try to avoid and hide and returning to the other person is much easier than to accept responsibility for their actions. However, they will all face their demons at some point and they will return. It is not a matter of will, but a matter of when.
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Regarding Replay--could we break that into two distinct phases, the first one being marked by an almost manic infatuation, and the second part being marked by low energy "clinging" to the OW/OM out of desperation?
Good point
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Yes...I never thought of it like that before but so true!
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Thanks, Ready!
Boy, was my H proud of his new love!
I have to laugh, actually. (SO proud!)
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Ready, I'm unclear what you mean by "return."
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This discussion on "phases" of replay is interesting; I definitely saw that first burst of extremely high-energy replay. It lasted 2 1/2 years. It then continued, though.... not quite as maniacly (sp?), but with him insisting on pressing on in order to stay with his dogma of never going back.
But we may be getting off the topic of this thread....
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I still need an answer to the question whether its too soon at 7 months post bd to go dark with h. He lives at home, kids don't know, still in our bed, and always clings when I become distant but says he can't give up the ow because it hurts. Lies constantly. I know I can't allow him to cake eat but is it too soon to go dark? Thanks
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Hi KS,
Not sure if someone gave you a reason for your own "time" concerns. I think as an LBS, you can do anything you want...when you want. Or anything you need...when you feel you have to. The one thing everyone will caution you against though, is having expectations at any stage or within any time frame.
Do you want to go dark? Would that be more comfortable to you?
Maybe someone else will have a suggestion on this but I don't see why you should have to hold back if that's what you want to do.
Best,
Bon
EDIT - Agreed. Why would you not go dark? - It is for YOU, to protect YOU - OldPilot
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Keepsmiling, sorry I usually do not like to respond to these type of questions, as generally I tend to be a bit more "tough love ish". I believe in STANDING, but I do not believe in letting ANYBODY cake eat. We have to protect ourselves and prevent our spouses from exposing us to dangers such as STD's, and emotional pain. WE have to remove ourselves from their drama as soon as we are able. That means, if it HURTS him too much to stop seeing other woman, then it is time to see how much he will HURT if he does not have YOU.
I would never suggest asking him to leave or anything drastic. You must ONLY ever do what you know you can LIVE WITH. Always be aware that for every action there is a reaction, which means unless you are prepared to live with the consequences do not do it. If you are, then proceed.
Most of us in the early days, (3-6 mos.) are incapable of doing much besides cry. Once we get past that stage, we learn fairly quickly what we can and cannot tolerate or condone. For me, I was not going to share my h with ANOTHER Woman.
The rule of thumb (this is not cast in cement, nothing is honey), do not make ULTIMATUMS you can not or will not go through with. The belief that there is ONLY one chance at a first impression, or impressing on your spouse that you mean, is a myth. That being said, the more times you back down from a threat or a promise for that matter, the less RELIABLE/ believable you are.
Do what you THINK is best for you! Like dealing with a child, mean what you say and don't say it, if you don't mean it.
Hugs Stayed...
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Thank you Bon Bon, Old Pilot and Stayed I really appreciate your advice. I am struggling so much. I was doing well for awhile and now I am falling apart. H clings to me so much. I have been detaching a lot lately but then he asks me whats wrong(seriously) and if Im mad. He hugs me and talks one day about our future then after he sees her hes totally different. I have seen anger lately which hasnt been there for awhile especially if I disagree with him. I know cake eating is wrong its actually pretty humiliating but I fear that if I go dark he will run away and I am not the best at sticking to my guns so I know he might not take me seriously. Also my kids don't know whats going on with us so I try to keep things as normal as possible at least until there school year is over.
It does help so much to have a place to go to for help so you don't feel so alone. Thanks again.
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Keepsmiling, your h is involved with another woman. You are afraid of going dark, because he might run away... SWEETIE... what do you think he is doing now? Do you think he is WITH YOU? He is cake eating and trying to enjoy the best of both worlds. Of course you are angry. How could you not be? Why would you feel you had to hide such a thing?
As for your children not knowing... hello... do you REALLY think they are so blind, they don't realize something is wrong?
hugs Stayed
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Thanks Stayed you are right it helps to get a reality check. I have always taken care of him and its so hard to let go but I will. I know you are right and I have to have more respect myself. Right now he's just doing what I am allowing and that has to stop.
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what a great idea to set this thread up. especially for newbies. you moderators are the best ;D ;D ;D
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You are doing great keepsmiling, the first 6 months you are doing well if you can walk and chew bubble gum. You are only what, 7 months out, goodness, I am impressed you were able to ask the question you did, so succinctly. :o
Well done girl, steadily up hill from here, as you take back control over WHAT YOU CAN! Which is ONLY yourself!
hugs Stayed
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I just tried to follow the instructions on posting a new thread so that I could post my story. After typing the entire thing and hitting "post", I was met with an error message saying I was not allowed to post. How do I post my story? I am obviously missing something in the instructions, would like to become more active with the forum...please help :o
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Learningtoexhale...did you choose new topic first?
EDIT - Did you put in the right confirmation code, letters or numbers? - OldPilot
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Thanks! It worked that time, hope I posted in the right place...I'm a newbie!
Edit by Stayed:
Fantastic, welcome to the forum, I shall look out for your new thread.
Learning, I just posted on your thread. Looks like you are up and running.
Bon
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Does anybody know how to start receiving notifications again? I used to get them but haven't gotten them in forever.
Thanks.
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Does anybody know how to start receiving notifications again? I used to get them but haven't gotten them in forever.
Thanks.
Please check the settings in your profile, yours are set for only notifying you of the first reply.
You need to change them for what you want.
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Thanks, OP. I'll check it out.
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I had the same problem Lovemyman... but when the site went down the last time, all of them went back to default... so I have been slowly putting everything back on "notify".
hugs Stayed...
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Hi can someone direct me to advice for setting boundaries with my MLCer who visits the kids in our apartment 3/4 times a week. He has been rude and difficult in front of the kids and I cant tolerate it.
Or should I? i've already been doing it when he lived here I went from arguing with him to difusing and not reacting. But he doesnt live here he needs to know that life has changed its too stressful for me.
I have provided an update on your own thread. CrazyStuff
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Fixing, I am not a mentor but here is the link to all of RCR's standing articles....
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/site-map.html
Boundaries is at the bottom of the page.
Have a great night!
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Okay, I have a question........it may have been covered already.......but if it has I don't know where.
I've been noticing in several postings that depression is a major part of MLC. What if the MLC'er clings and hangs onto that as the very reason/cause for their behavior? Will this prevent them from really facing and seeing the true issues that caused this to happen? My exH is on AD's and going to counseling/therapy. Is there a chance that he will completely bypass all the issues due to the fact that he is so focused on depression being the root cause of his "illness"?
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Is there a chance that he will completely bypass all the issues due to the fact that he is so focused on depression being the root cause of his "illness"?
Lovemyman, like any type of mental illness/depression/whatever, there is ALWAYS a chance they will refuse to look within. They have FREE WILL, like us, they get to choose what they want to do. Nobody or anything can force anybody to do anything, they do not wish to do.
That is why we continually reiterate... FOCUS ON YOURSELF! FIX YOURSELF... and then see where the situation is at, once you are healing/hopefully healed. WE always have to be prepared for the worst possible scenario. It is sad, but that is LIFE honey, not just MLC, but LIFE. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow, all we can do is hope that we are healthy, happy and confident enough to make wise choices and decisions, for ourselves and our children.
hugs Stayed
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Do the mentors or anyone know of any ex OW/OM of MLCers who have blogged/ posted and accept that they were involved in and a symptom of their affair partners MLC.
A friend of mine said she had a relationship with an older man he had left his wife and kids for someone, else but she was OW2
and in her 20's at the time, now she can look back and see that is probably what it was.
Who knows perhaps one of our LBS was OW in past!
I just think it would be interesting to get their perspective.
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I'm not a mentor, but I thought I'd post this here -- moderators, I won't be offended if you say it's not appropriate.
There is actually a forum for OWs -- www.gloryb.com -- called TOW - The Other Woman.
If you can stomach it, it makes for interesting reading. A lot of them are really messed up.
There is also "the-other-woman.com"; that one you have to register on to post, so I can't read there. I do know someone who did read on there for ages, though, and said as well that those OW were quite a case.
T & L
Thanks for responding. I remember reading that there were blogs and websites with this type of info...but didn't recall where.
L
T&L, I think it is totally appropriate to provide information like that. I think all knowledge is good.
hugs Stayed
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Hello there,
If you check out www.baggagereclaim.com it is a site about why OW become OW - the focus on the site is actually all about promoting good self esteem and having emotionally healthy relationships.
I ahve found it very useful as I have navigated my life post BD - for all sorts of reasons.
Reading baggagereclaim shows there are lots of messed up women out there and men of equally messed up proprtions.
P
x
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I had a friend who was a perpetual other woman. In fact, she was the straw that broke the camel's back in another friend's marriage that resulted in divorce.
She's 50 years old and has never been married. She's had her share of men that were interested in her that were not married...but she seemed to take a particular joy in the men that were. I always believed this stemmed from childhood anger over not being considered attractive, over being inordinately tall for a woman and rather than embracing it, feeling freakish...and so forth.
I have never heard an ounce of remorse or regret from her but instead, venomous spew on whichever wife whose husband she was sleeping with.
Interestingly though, I just received an email about a month ago and she said she had just begun therapy to try and figure out why she has taken the paths she's taken and has wound up single and never married at 50. Maybe this is her midlife transition and she's taking stock in a positive way.
Let's hope.
Bon
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One thing that I have noticed about the board and the many that post (myself included) is that we get very hooked on two issues:
1) Is it MLC?
2) What makes the alienator tick?
I am not the expert that RCR or DGU are concerning MLC and the alienator as I read but rarely quote the articles.
In most of the threads, the female (ow) has issues. They claim abuse, they claim neglect- they need help. (om) is the rescuer. They are made to feel strong again and save the day. Both parties feel that the love is special and like a Romeo and Juliet, they are two star crossed lovers.
No one understands them- they only understand each other. It makes the excitement only more powerful. Like shoplifting.
The alienator and the MLCer never see their relationship from a reality based reference. It is all about emotion and when the emotional spell ends, the reality sinks in and the relationship falls apart. I am not saying that the MLC ends. The alienator often moves on to their next target and the MLCer either returns or seeks another alienator.
I think the first thing we all have to do is to try and compare or compete with the alienator. It serves no purpose except to fuel the narcissim of our MLCer.
The other thing is that it only adds to the excitement that the both the alienator and the MLCer feel that it is them against the world and that noone understand the "special" feelings they have for each other. The more you ingnore the alienator and treat the alienator as nothing special, the more the MLCer realizes that they have nothing special.
As I have stated before, doubt of MLC is what kills the LBSer off slowly but surely. Something to ponder as you continue your stand.
(((((hugs))))
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Thanks, Stayed for providing me with some good input/advice. I only asked the question since it seems to be a common excuse (depression) to the MLC'er as to why their behavior is so whack. My exH seems to be so focused on the fact that he suffers from depression that I'm not sure he's capable of looking on the inside to face the true issues. He has mentioned a few other things that makes me think maybe he is looking but then again who knows. I'm so much stronger now than I was a year ago.....even 6 months ago. I'm really good. I find myself questioning my stand even though I know nothing will change for me even if I decided to stop. I'm not any where near ready to throw in the towel and start searching for another. I see things as "if it's meant to be...........it will be".
Thanks again!
(((HUGS)))
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Ready,
I think you are absolutely right. In my case I don't worry so much about any particular OW (as there have been so many....) but yes, do find myself questioning if it is MLC, and if so, in which stage. I can now remind myself that I did this _____ long ago and it didn't help, then I read an article, and feel stronger.
It's in moments of clarity that I see that yes, it IS mlc; our own fog then rolls in and we doubt again.
I think you are right that doubting the process is what kills off the LBS; we need to remember that, and live for ourselves.
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Two GREAT points Ready...
Fueling the narcisist and doubting MLC....
Had I doubted MLC I would not have stood...period.
Bon
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Ready
I agree - two great points. I too wouldn't stand if not for MLC.
Fixing Myself - I was not another woman, but twenty years ago, when I was in my late twenties, I was actively pursued by my boss during the early stages of his MLC.
I can categorically confirm that this man was out of his mind, muddled, confused, anxious, ego-ccentric, obsessed with me, and wouldn't let up on his pursuit.
I had no idea about MLC apart from the bimbo and the sports car. This man had the most beautiful wife, and four gorgeous kids. From all reports, they had always been very close.
I found the whole thing very confusing. He was a very tall man, and his obsession with me frightened me a little. (I don't frighten easily!). It was very public, and obvious to the rest of the people in the building.
I had ZERO interest in a relationship with this out of control man. I felt very sorry for him and his family though.
I eventually left my job, and he almost immediately hooked up with someone else my age in another department. She had a pretty hideous history.
The perfect alienator.
As much as I cringe at the thought - I know that my H would have been as obsessed with the OW, as this man was with me.
It is humiliating and embarrassing for them. They are clearly out of their minds, and these OW are clearly extremely dysfunctional to take the bait, and believe any of it is real.
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Mentors,
First and foremost, I would like to thank every one of you for taking the time to help others through the confusing journey of a LBS. No doubt, your love and support is greatly appreciated by all posters.
I would like to suggest an idea I feel would be very helpful. Would it be feasible for the mentors to attach the link to RCR's standing articles from the site map in their signature to guide newbies to the articles for a greater understanding of the process?
I have been spending a lot of time reading the old discussion threads, and since RCR has upgraded the site some of the links no longer work properly, so I have been trying to think of a way we can direct others to the above-mentioned articles.
In advance, thank you for taking the time to read my suggestion and thank you for all of your hard work.
Tsu
Excellent idea! Tsu... Stayed
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Tsu
Good idea. I have taken this over to the mentor/moderator board for discussion.
xx
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Ready,
Great synopsis of two MAJOR issues for us HSs! You've described my H and his OW to perfection. Of course, I've read it all here time and again but you summarized it so succinctly. Thanks!
And even though I know you're correct--that it's doubt about the problem being MLC that does in so many standers--I still have very bad periods when I want to give up because I'm convinced my H really is "in love" and will never "come out of it." In other words, I have significant periods where I don't trust the process--and I pay the price in depression and despair. Fear, for a time, wins out.
It's a struggle for me.
TMHP
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TMHP,
I know this is easier said than done...but try to view the process in a different way...trust in the process for yourself! Focus on your own journey....that is as much if not more of the process as the MLCers.
Your feelings of depression will come and go...and other feelings will come in and probably surprise you. He has his journey and you have yours. And you'll emerge stronger no matter what.
Hang in there!
Bon
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I am desperate for support right now...I am crying my eyes out and don't know what to do. I am attaching an mail I received this morning.These words do not sound like H at all. I know he is in need of money to keep up his life style.
Advise Please!!!!!! Anyone at there.
The email
I have employed the services of a -------------------, she is a legal assistant. I have hired her for the purpose of Dissolution of Marriage. I wanted to tell you this because you will be receiving a letter stating so. --------- is strictly a paper pusher. She has no position.
I have been thinking about how to separate our assets. I don't know how you feel about this. But as I see it we have.......
a house
an annuity
possessions
and commitments
For commitments the only thing I can think of is helping our son buy a house when he is ready. I will do this.
For possessions, there's all the "stuff" we've gathered over time and should be easy enough to agree on. I the last thing I want to do is take a lot of items that I really have no place to put and I don't want to create unnecessary problems for you.
As for the house I assume you would like to keep and I would like to have the annuity.
If there was a way for me to make this painless for you I would surly do it. But if you agree to everything as I have suggested it this should be the last time this is discussed.
You are more than welcome to contact -----------. Her office is located at------------
He could not even do this face to face...it sounds like to me he is in a hurry?
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I am desperate for support right now...I am crying my eyes out and don't know what to do. I am attaching an mail I received this morning.These words do not sound like H at all. I know he is in need of money to keep up his life style.
Advise Please!!!!!! Anyone at there.
I answered this on what I hope is your thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2182.msg135929#msg135929
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Hi...I have a question about rapid cycle mlc. Do they move thru the stages at a different pace than those that cycle more slowly? My H seems to be all over the place.
Also, i have read more than a few times about husbands talking about the OW. My husband has said nothing to me about her, what could that mean?
Answered on your thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2361.msg138038#new
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What does a "Low Energy MLCer" mean?
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Some MLCers are more overtly depressed--you can tell they are depressed. They may be less likely to move out of the house and though I think many and probably most have an alienator at some point, they seem slightly less likely to have an affair than the more typical high-energy MLCers.
Bomb Drop happens during or initiates Replay, which is a phase of the stage Separation. Replay was named by Jim Conway in Men in Midlife Crisis. Jim described the label as meaning do-over; it's an attempt to go back and relive youthful experiences. But more generally, the phase of Replay is Escape & Avoid--not everyone tries to do-over and those low-energy MLCers who do try, may burn through that energy faster and return to a constant low-grade depression.
There are a few topic threads on Low-Energy...hold on, I'll go search them and paste links here.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=303.0;all (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=303.0;all)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1301.0;all (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1301.0;all)
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If they're avoiding responsibility, when they finally come out of liminality, are they willing to be more responsible?
Seems like a lot of MLC'ers were needy to begin with. My own acted like a child throughout our marriage--lazy, avoiding, wanting to be mothered. When he left he was upset that I wasn't there for him, didn't support him, etc.
Do they ever grow up and take responsibility for their actions, help out more around the house, act proactively to get things done?
Responding on your own thread,
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2344.10
hugs Stayed
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I have a question about the depression please. We all know that the MLCer is described as being in the fog.
But it's now 2yr and 2mths post BD, and my H said that for the first time ever (that he remembers anyway), when he was working the other day, he had an hour or so where his mind was completely blank. He described it as being in a fog.
He couldn't remember exactly why he was there, or what he was meant to be doing.
He said it passed.
Is this overt depression?
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Overt depression is when it is visible to anyone who looks at them.
For most of their crisis the depression is covert (or hidden) to most people. It may be that only you will notice the difference although quite often other family members will know something is up.
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Thanks for explaining Hope Floats. He looked okay today, but I guess if I'd been around when he experienced the fog the day that he was describing, I would definitely have known he wasn't 'there'.
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Hello,
I had a question. After BD, H was constantly working in the backyard, keeping the pool clean. Out there every weekend, now he doesn't do anything. Hasnt touch a lawn mower in over a month. Cleans the pool only after winds. Weeds over taking flowers.
Any ideas?
C
Answered on your thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2211.msg139462#msg139462 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2211.msg139462#msg139462)
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They all cycle. My spouse goes through periods of cleaning and being interested in things and then forgets about it for a period of time and then goes back to the program.
She will watch the same movie over and over again and then switch back to another movie only to return back to that movie.
Or listen to the same song, over and over again. Just more of the same. Then when she is pressed on anything, she is angry and combative.
You h seems to be doing the same thing. Once again, it is about just going through the motions of life while they try to sort out the issues that are confronting them.
Just my opinion.
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Having a tad of a crisis and feeling desperate. Would sincerely appreciate some thoughts and advice. Details posted today on my thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=715.0
Thanks
OMJ
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Sorry, I wish I had seen your question yesterday. I was not really doing much.
There is much to think about and I have read your thread and I would be devastated to say the least. My advice right now is to do NOTHING concerning your H, his OW, and the D. You have to work on you.
You have to work on you. You are crying because your own self-esteem and feelings of self-worth are shot. You need to see friends, and you need to feel some sense of connection. I don't know where you are, but I would strongly recommend you meeting another LBSER or sending a pm with a cell number to talk to someone.
You are holding it together much better than most and I admire your strength.
In the future, you do need to confront your h about ow. This is a choice he made and he has to accept responsibility for his choice. But you are not emotionally in the position to confront and I think he may even go monster on you which will only tear further at the weak bonds you have for him and yourself.
(((((Hugs))))) and do one thing really nice for you today.
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okay Mentors I need some help here! H is still bouncing around from friend to friends house. His time with his kids has been haphazard and was really on my nerves. He has sent about 40 hours total with D13 since he left and if it wasn't for a fishing trip over spring break even less for S16. Mostly because S16 is busy and isn't really interested in accomodating his Father during his second adolescence! (BD and fled the same day--kinda of reminded me of a panic attack on 2/21/12).
I have gone dim as possible (again! lol) for about 2 weeks with one blunder the Tuesday after Easter when I saw the tax statement! That is another story!
Anyway, yesterday he emailed offering to take D to dance. Keep in mind Monster complained about helping with just about any and everything prior to this separation. I have worked out a car pool with another mom and have to pick her daughter up at another school, etc. So basically, I've got it. So I replied, No thanks.
Yesterday I get home from work and H had apparently been at the house earlier because he had painted some trim--it was in the garage and was pretty dry so I guess he left work yesterday and came to our house and painted trim. Again, this was another issue with Monster prior to separation. He would avoid any and all home improvements to pick a fight.
Then last night my brother inlaw had a wreck and needs to borrow one of our extra cars. H called D13 and tells her to tell me this????? Okay, this is so high school and you all need to pray for me.
I did not respond text, mention, etc. to any of the above.
Then this morning I get an email: "Dear, I am trying to work out a schedule to see the kids more do you have any suggestions?" Okay, everyone of you knows how I would like to respond--"Well, dear, why don't you put on your big boy pants face your problems and be a real Dad." Okay, I am smart enough to know that is probably not the approach to take. So do I ignore it, simply ask whay he has in mind, what? It is tough because our kids are 13 and 16 and have busy weekends and awesome friends. I think they should be able to choose--espeically since he doesn't even have his own place.
Responded to you on your thread.....limitless
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2382.22
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Where am I at in the scheme of things. My husband hasn't left and threatends to leave and I will never see him again. That happens when I catch them together. I am hurting beyond words and need to focus more on ME.
answered on your thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?action=post;topic=2419.10;last_msg=142241
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Hi mentors. My awesome mentor is on hiatus ( hugs to you Voyager ).
I was wondering if there's an article around or some other reading material that discusses when there's a child involved. I found out recently about a child, born 2 months ago and I would just like some quality, related info to read. I'm devastated. This is pretty much a deal breaker for me ( what else can I say? ) but it would be helpful and comforting to to have something to read. More advice would be nice, too. Thank you.
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With Gods Help is dealing with a baby to ow as is Buggy31
I would start there and hopefully they may be able to help you with what they did.
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I've gotten wonderful advice so far. Thanks everyone!
Thanks Hope Floats! I've located their threads and I'll read more about their situations.
This would be a great topic for RollerCoasterRider to do an article / series on, I think. I would love to read her perspective on this.
I must say, I honestly, I didn't see this coming and I wish I would have had the tools to prepare for this permanent twist.
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Does mlcer get angry and detached to a higher degree near the end of the tunnel?
It's been 6+ years and he now is filled with anger, much more detached than previous years. What type of affect do you see when coming near the end of tunnel?
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From what I read from the articles, as they enter the final phase, there is a great amount of anger. Remember that men display depression often through anger.
Remember, as the MLCer progresses through the tunnel, the depression deepns and thus the anger becomes more apparent. However, it often becomes directed toward everyone and no longer just you.
Read HB's six stages of MLC. I don't read them often because I do not want to get stuck in progress analysis too much.
(((((hugs)))
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Is the anger from seeing the destruction they caused in pursuit of "happiness and love"?
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no, anger is a result of depression. They don't really look back and demonstrate remorse until after the identity has been reshaped. Remember that remorse shows empathy and throughout the crisis, they are inward to their own feelings and not others-especially yours. After all, they feel as if you brought this upon yourself.
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Thanks Ready I may need to find this again. The amount of anger Dearheart has is insane at the moment.
I Had to apply for welfare, angered him.
I Had to leave work, angered him.
Tried to make a joke, angered him.
Went out of the house without letting him know exactly where, angered him.
He is even getting angry with the kids again.
Even D2 who is exerting who she is, he yells at her.
Girls don’t want to stay with him, angers him.
*sigh*
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Yes, and my w has tried to bait me as well and I don't fall for it. She can get as angry as she wants, but she can't draw me into her drama. Too much work for me to do to waste that much energy.
She might as well as yell at the wall and get the same effect.
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I have a question. Let's see I am at 31 months since this started (BD was Oct. 2009, D final Oct. 2010). Contact with my exH has been more or less every two to three weeks on average. We do not have any children and only share a vacation property to which I know burden the entire financial responsibility..............BUT..........I still maintain our agreement to rotate time with him. This is a long 3-day weekend for me but his time at the property. I know he has not been in a very long time so I took a chance and emailed him yesterday asking if I could take advantage of this holiday/time to use the vacation place. He did not answer until later last night. He replied for me to go ahead and that he hasn't been back since June of 2010. I replied thanking him but then pushed a little. I asked him why (if I may) he hasn't been back. I told him that I respected his privacy and totally understand if he doesn't want to answer. I included another line, "we both used to enjoy our time there so much". Well, he did answer. He simply said, "In a word, depression. I don't enjoy much of anything nowadays. Can't seem to break out of it. I'm better, but have no enjoyment in much of anything. We had some special times down there." I left it alone. Nothing else required.
Finally, to my question: Does this appear as he is stuck? I'm pretty sure there isn't an OW. He has recently talked about all the extra work he's done on his job (working late nights/weekends). To me he seems to be more like himself other than this mindset he can't seem to break. He doesn't seem to be angry and even though the contact isn't routine it is better. So, any thoughts, comments, advise is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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Once again, I give advice with a hint of caution. 31 months is a long time and remember that depression runs its course throughout the process. It becomes deeper as they exit replay and begin the process of finding a new identity. They may return back to replay and visit all aspects of replay. I have seen my w doing the same exacxt thing. Listening to songs that she used to listen to and actions that date back to bomb drop and before.
However, they will return back to luminaty as RCR states "once they drink of the water" they will return. There is no fully going back to Replay.
Your h is sad and the fact that he writes of his depression is another sign that he recognizes it. Overt depression is another sign.
Now, I have not seen your h or spoken to him so this is based upon reading the articles and your observations. Let him deal with his issues. Go and enjoy the weekend. Remember, he has to realize his depression and lack of energy has nothing to do with you but everything to do with him.
Hope this helps ((((hugs)))
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Thanks, RTFMSF. I see exactly what you are saying. I haven't seen my exH since August 2011. Our communication has been mainly through email and a few very long phone conversations in between. I don't know how he looks and nobody to inquire about his appearance or outward actions. I just have what I have. However, I do know that he recently revisited Facebook. He didn't go back to his original Facebook page but started a very plain/generic new one. Just has two friends (his SIL and his second OW). No pictures and no postings. Very boring. OW#2 lives about 4 hours away (close to our vacation property).........and since he hasn't been I can only assume that he hasn't tried another R with OW2. I just think he was very desperate at the time of the reconnect through FB. This was just a few weeks ago as he was telling me he was in a very bad place and had to go back to his doctor and get back on meds due to his suicidal thoughts.
Again, thanks for your thoughts. Very informative and appreciated.
(((HUGS)))
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I have another question. I also posted this on my thread. I'm seeking some advice. Here is my question:
My exH is constantly saying "I can't undo what's been done". Any thoughts or suggests as to what my response should be? I don't think the reply of "people rebuild or start over" works......I've tried. I don't think he sees it this way. Any and all ideas, suggestions are very much appreciated.
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I am going to respond, but give me some time so I can really reflect and think about a really good truth dart to respond as this is a critical piece of self-reflection for your H. (((((hugs))))
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Readytofixmyselffirst,
I'm very interested in what you might come up with.. I posted this on my thread and have gotten several very good suggestions. I was thinking along the lines of a "truth dart" myself but couldn't come up with anything. The other suggestions are pretty good as well. No response needed as it is not a question........or "sorry you feel that way". Very good ideas. So, I'll wait to see what you come up with.
Thanks.
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The reason why I took time is because the "can't undo" paints themselves and you in a corner. I have prayed and I have gone through the scriptures. I would let your h know that everyday given by GOD is the opportunity to undo what has been done. After all salvation from GOD is asking to be forgiven for what has been done so that the soul can enter the kingdom of heaven.
So, I would look him in the eye and say, "I am sorry you feel that way, but when I am on the journey of life and I take a wrong turn, I realize that it is easier to go back and start the trip over then it is to stay on the wrong road. What do you think?
((((hugs))))
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That is awesome, Ready! I am grateful that you searched scripture before coming up with that response. For me, personally, it's perfect. I thought of other comments I have actually made to him in the past when he made this remark. I once told him that it's in the past and what matters now is what he does next or something like that. I honestly love your response though. I'm going to write it down and memorize it so I'll be ready next opportunity I get. You have renewed my strength and hope!
Thank you so much!!
(((HUGS)))
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Your quote: My exH is constantly saying "I can't undo what's been done".
When I hear this I want to scream. Yes if you were a computer, you can't undo.
But the key word here is 'can't'. I can't turn the clock back. I can't help falling in love. I can't help myself. People say it all the time without thinking about the meaning.
Can't means 'able to'. What the person means is 'won't'. I will not undo...I will not turn the clock back. I won't help myself. I don't want to.
I won't even go into what I think of these analogies--we are humans with minds and choices, not clocks, not computers, not kettles boiling...when you talk of paths or forks in the road, that's different because it does picture a thinking human being deciding what to do.
Just my rant. If I could find the MLC script, I would have such a good time editing it!
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calamityj - you asked about the MLC script trying Googling 'MLC For Dummies' - you'll find the script and the handbook all in one!!
It is a very funny and good respite as we travel this road!
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ILoveMyMan,
You [all LBS's] need to read this before and after any communication with your MLCer. Funny & so accurate.
Here's the address: http://nashlinks.com/midlife.htm
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BWAHAHA!! Oh, I needed that today! Funny because it's funny, AND funny because it's true!!
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Thanks for the chuckle. I thought it was funny. I forwarded it to my husband who did not find it funny in the least. His only comment was, "wow, sounds familiar eh?"
hugs Stayed
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This is the best one I've seen; over the years I've seen a number of versions of this..... it's the kind of thing I'd be tempted to leave "accidentally" lying around..... don't worry :)
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Don't bother. I showed it to my h early on. He didn't get it. [as in, how does that apply to me?]
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I still can't get over how uncanny it is how closely they follow script!
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If they all follow the script, does that mean they really are in mlc? If so many say and do the same things that is a validation of what we understand of mlc?
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Wow... I have heard that woman in MLC are very differnt from men... I dont see it.. that seems to be the play book my wife has been following to the letter.. its absolutely uncanny!!!
Z.
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Hi I would like to hear your views if possible please. I'm not sure I have placed this in the correct place though.
Do you think the affair down scenario still applies when the ow has a baby.
I must point out ow has trapped him with this baby (we have four already and one of the reasons or excuses for him leaving was that he never wanted our fourth even though he was planned at the time if this makes sense). It was common knowledge within my h and ow's workplace that she wanted another baby. Everyone knew it seems except my h who said we were all lying, everone else is lying .....................BAM!
Even though I know all this, I can't help but wonder whether this would sway his decision to stay with her and live happily ever after etc.
Or will the usual 'life with the ow' behind the scenes still be occuring.
Please give me your thoughts as I really cannot see the point in standing especially if its a lost cause.
Do you agree that the odds are stacked against me?
Since x
I have responded on your thread.
limitless
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2444.msg150814#msg150814 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2444.msg150814#msg150814)
Me too -RCR
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2444.msg150815#msg150815 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2444.msg150815#msg150815)
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Hi,
I've been navigating some emotionally stormy waters this week. Not his, mine ! I am certain in the way I have been handling things, but something happened in him the other day which gave me cause to think he'd had a bottom out.
If you get the time can you have a quick read of my posts over the last week and let me know what you think. I know what I personally am doing so I'm not looking for any suggestions on how I change my course of action ( maybe a little validation :)) given what I think I have seen in him.
One thing i forgot to mention in my post was that during our deep conversation he said the words "i know the grass is not greener". As he hasn't done anything different eg: move etc I assumed he was talking about OW. It was a random statement to make at the time and it was as if he had been thinking about that subject. It fits with what RCR said about them realising in limbo that the relationship would not be a permanent one.
I know he knows it's in him. He said as much and also that he isn't capable of doing anything about it right now. If that was a bottom out, at this stage can they truly avoid liminality forever in limbo?
Your feedback would be much appreciated.
SD
x
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Also posted in my thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2294.70
In regards to my own crisis, I believe I may have processed through a milestone, but I'm not sure. I know I have been in liminal depression for 6-8 months. But this past week I've been feeling more...depression. Less numbness, more that pain in my chest, "blues" kind of depression that I remember feeling periodically before all of this happened. I feel the loss of my R and the last few years, not just the absence and cycling. From what other post-Fog MLC'ers have said, is this something that's common coming out of liminality? Is it something that's just part of it, so maybe not a milestone? Definitely, my perspective (not just my mood) is starting to change, I can feel it.
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I guess my big question (and maybe others have been wondering this too) is why does my H lie about OW still being around? His best friend, his mother, and I all know that OW was in his life (as he admitted to all of us). However, why does he continue to tell everyone she is no longer in his life (even though we all know she is still in his life)? What is the reason? Financial (so his parents will be less strict about giving him a hard time with money)? The excitement of hiding from the world? He will bring her out once the dust settles? He thinks deep inside she is not the type of woman to introduce to parents and best friend (especially since both have called her less than flattering names)? I have been trying to search for answers within the site and don't seem to find them....thanks for clarifying this.
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There is a lot of guilt and secrecy involving ow. They let enough out of the bag just to get you started. They hope that you will kick them to the curb and that will justify their actions.
Afterwards, they feel guilty and will cycle with others about ow as much as they cycle with you. It is not an easy arrangement as you know others have probably been giving him grief about his choice. On one level, he wants to keep ow for feeling his addiction but on the other level, he does not want people to find out about his little secret.
Of course, the best thing is to just let him stew in his own choices. Personally, I don't ask about OM at all or even bring him up. He is a meaningless entity and it is up to her to get rid of him. NOT ME!
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JAG,
I asked the same question about the lying in general. They are dealing with their childhood issues, and emotional pain they didn't deal with when they were children. Children lie, so they lie about everything.
Just another perspective to think about.
Tsu
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As always...thank you RTFM and Tsunami!
Both of your points make absolute sense! I guess it is hard to stomach the OW because it seems to everyone that H left me and the kids (because to any "normal" person you want to spend every minute of your day with someone you love and care about...not someone you are using).
RTFM: I see how my H used OW to try and get me to leave him (he also said she had nothing to do with why he left)...I told him we could work through this for the kids...he then said...he was no longer in love with me. Sooner or later the cat will be out of the bag with other people...but I guess by then it won't look as bad when his infant and toddler are a little older (he can always lie about the time frame).
Tsunami: I guess my H has A LOT of childhood issues (if his identity searching during his adolescent years were not enough for him to figure things out...I think it is a lost cause!).
A big hug to all of you who take the time to listen to and answer a silly person's questions...from my heart to yours...thank you...
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Not a problem. The problem with saying I am not "in" love is that they are saying that you don't excite them. OW excites them. But it is not love. It is addiction.
Also, if you ever meet me, you will see that I am a silly person. Silly is good!!!!!
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So,
I have a question, I have been galing, doing my own thing and don't pursue h. He has started moving towards me a little at a time. Now the question, when he comes to me to talk I listen, acknowledge what he is saying when appropriate, then go about my business. Should I not be the first one to walk away. Once or twice I felt that if hurt his feelings. Its tough to know when he is done, at first I would wait to see if he was done talking and it was awkward, and I remember someone told me to be the first to end the conversation.
I think it is very important right now that I do the right thing.
FH
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Communication is always difficult. I don't know who told you to be the first to end the conversation. Instead, you mirror the actions and accept the conversation. If he is in monster, always end the conversation. After all, don't stand there and take abuse.
What make the conversation awkward? I think a simple, "Honey, I am about to do ____, is there anything else you have to say?" It is not rude to end a conversation on a positive note.
I think it is very important right now that I do the right thing.
You are past the clingy, pleading, and crying stage. You are not pursuing and blindly trying anything to save your marriage. Now that you are back to being you and living your life, the right thing to do is what your gut feeling tells you to do. Follow that intuition and reflect on that intuition. If your gut is telling you to do the "right" thing, then you need to ponder what is the "right" thing for your h.
Post what you think is the right thing and then let people consider your possible action and give advice on what you plan to do. Then take it for what it is-advice. Not commands nor "must do's".
((((hugs)))
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I've read and reread the articles by RCR on Liminality. I'm still not very clear on it or sure that I understand it fully. Is there anybody out there that can explain it in simple terms for me? Also, at what point (stage/phase/time wise) does the MLC'er come to Liminality? How do they act?
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Lovemyman
Here is RCR's Q&A blog on Liminality. You may have already read this, but I thought I'd post it in case you had not seen it before.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=31
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After reading this blog post, I am thinking my W is perhaps in the Liminality stage, as she has requested to be alone in her own room she has rented in a house close to work to have some time to think. I'm not sure if this is for Replay purposes, but something in my gut and seeing some recent little tidbits is telling me that time and space to herself will give some much needed personal reflection opportunities. I'm trying to keep communication lines open but I am letting her reach out to me. This post was exactly what information I was looking for as well! This gives me more reason to continue Standing. Thanks for the initial inquiry LMM! Good luck and prayers in everyone's journey!
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Thanks, DGU. I had not read the Q&A, and I appreciate the information. I can only nod my head and realize it's all part of the process and it will work itself out when it's ready. I haven't had any contact in right at a month now. I don't see my exH or know anybody I can ask about him. I'm left in the dark (so to speak) but I'm alright with it........the knowledge of acceptance of the process helps me. Maybe for some it's best that the MLC'er goes off and deals with their issues on their own......and be alone as they wish. I just can't help but wonder........I suppose that's just normal.
Good luck to you Bailmor. I hope and prayer for you and all the others here as well.
God's speed!
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I wonder how we can bump up old posts? I've found an old one I posted on the iChing, http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=218.135 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=218.135) and wonder whether to post again, or bump it up for those who may be interested or find it useful.
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I think this is correct way of asking for responses: I am having difficulty with detachment. I need a new way of looking at it; I have read the articles on HS & the AA approach & Livestrong but I am not getting my mind around it. Any ideas?
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Hello Calamity J,
This is a very difficult skill to learn but is fundamental to navigating your MLCer's crisis - I read articles on here, followed rabbit warrens through the internet - you know bouncing from one site and link to another - it remained elusive and I would put myself under pressure to look detached - but it isn't about looking detached it is about feeling 'lovingly detached' from your MLCer and their behaviours.
I realised that I just had to practice with every single interaction with my exH, whether in person or when my mind wandered to him and what he was doing, and eventually it just clicked. So my advice to you would be to be vigilent to your emotional responses when you think about your H or he is in touch with you or someone tells you something about him and his life.
I learned to take a deep breath and mull it over and I asked myself a few simple questions like:-
1. so what does that actually mean to me??
2. what are my options right now (the good, the bad, the kind, the wicked)?
3. do I actually have to respond to this?? (more often than not I didn't have to respond!!)
4. what is my best response to this (often it was to do nothing)?
5. am I actually trying to exert control in this situation (answer honestly MF)?
6. when is the last time I actually need to do anything with this?
Eventually, so many of the interactions with my exH became very quick to decipher, kind of like 'yup, this is MLC script, he is still in a dark place, default position MF' - it wasn't always easy but like a dripping tap fills a bath so my skills at being 'lovingly detached' grew.
I still have my off days - only last week I was tired and very busy and my exH was hassling me about something and I replied to a text with 'grow up exH' and that unleashed a torrent of abuse from him. Sooooooooo, I stepped back and regrouped and didn't take the bait! All the clues are there - he is still in MLC and I am still handling the fallout and moving my life forward.
Keep practising and I believe you will get there.
((hugs))
P
x
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I have got a question about projection. My H projects all his negativity onto me. Most of the things he accuses me of are features of his mother and some are his own. I am negative, I am a black and white person, I cannot take a look at myself, I only criticize him, I am unable to give love to people, I can never apologize, I am never grateful etc. etc. What I am curious about is will a person in MLC ever see that these projections belong to themselves or will they continue to see the LBS, as in my case, as his mother?
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Brilliant Movingforward, I copied that to my detachment file. So glad I asked.
Niek, from what I have read he won't even remember what he has said or thought during this time. Consider each point & forget it. It's just trying to shift blame for his behaviour on you.
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I have got a question about projection. My H projects all his negativity onto me. Most of the things he accuses me of are features of his mother and some are his own. I am negative, I am a black and white person, I cannot take a look at myself, I only criticize him, I am unable to give love to people, I can never apologize, I am never grateful etc. etc. What I am curious about is will a person in MLC ever see that these projections belong to themselves or will they continue to see the LBS, as in my case, as his mother?
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc.html
Blaming or Projecting
In order to avoid Self-reflection and responsibility, the MLCer blames the spouse. Often he will rewrite history, stating the marriage has been falling apart for years. Midlifers hurl accusations: you are the bad guy, you are in denial, you are the one who is confused, you are vindictive; often these are all things the MLCer subconsciously feels about himself.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_shadow_projection.html
Projection
Projection delegates power to an external source, making that source responsible for success and failure as well as joy and misery. Projection enables a person to both avoid looking internally to resolve problems--as well to avoid self-appreciation.
Idolization is a projection of hero-worship wherein a person projects his divine needs onto another, attempting to make the other into a god. An OW is often the object of idol-projection and the spouse the object of demon-projection. The OW is all good, can do no wrong and will make his life happy; his wife is to blame for everything that is going wrong, and has and will continue to make his life miserable, she is angry, manipulative and unstable--all qualities he is refusing to acknowledge in himself. Refusal of projection is not possible if the object of projection also denies and refuses her own Shadow, thus it is of utmost importance that an MLCer's spouse (Standing or not) work through her own Shadow journey, integrating her Shadow by way of self-focus. To yield to physical intimacy is to unite--becoming one flesh, and to become one, the two must be of balanced matter. To yield is thus an admission that the other is either not divine or that both are divine. The latter is hubris and the former results in a disappointing crash for the man who placed a burden of divinity on his partner.
A man rescued his wife in the I Do and yet he failed for she remained, or rather she became mere flesh and blood. He thus remains a questing knight--for the projections of a true king do not fail but instead disintegrate, falling away to reveal the woman beneath. Years of Accommodation follow the initial in-fatuation, causing a reinterpretation of marital and relational history, which without the filter of Accommodation is not an untruth but a changed perspective. Since he surrendered responsibility for completeness to his wife, she is thus to blame when he realizes he is incomplete; everything is her fault.
In MLC, after years of marriage, when the in-fatuation hormones have long since waned and are no longer in possession, a man recognizes his wife as a flesh woman rather than a divine goddess. But without an integrated anima he searches for divinity in another woman in whom he can surrender responsibility of his completeness--continuing the cycle of projection. An OW is new, not having failed him she is seemingly without flaws, thus he can project his expectations for feminine divinity onto her, while simultaneously projecting his demons onto his wife--the woman who failed him because she lost her divinity when like Lucifer, she fell. If his abandoned wife does not bother to look beyond his surface actions into the projection and symbolism, the two cannot reconcile later. For reconciliation and understanding of the journey she must not take his actions and projections personally, but look beyond to what is being projected and why.
A person must explore and discover his limitations before he can experience the crush of failure that will break open the skies to apotheosis, the attainment realized from the bursting development and energy released from breaking through limitations. Projection can be a bridge connecting us to the world. It is often first through projection that we meet our Shadow and take our first steps toward awareness, for it is by acknowledging something outside of ourselves that we come to acknowledge it within. The error is when we use projection as a barrier to maintain separateness and are thus destructive to both the projector and the object of projection.
________________________________________
Peter Pan cut away his shadow, he thus had no dark side, no repressions, nothing hidden or in his depths. He was thus chronologically stunted; without his shadow there was no possibility for maturation. Peter Pan was a puer aeternus--eternal boy, for a man this is a person who is physically mature and yet remains emotionally in adolescence. Like an animated photograph, Peter Pan was frozen in time. If a moment frozen in time is worth a thousand words, imagine the value of a lifetime of moments. Projection and the splitting of the psyche into conscious and unconscious and are necessary elements toward objectively viewing Self, learning about Self and from that experience reintegrating. Though it is not possible to go back, making as Jung says a regressive restoration of the persona, the Shadow remains undeveloped as though in Eden. Re-entrance requires an integration of simple innocence and wizened experience.
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My current thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2535.msg155353#msg155353
Dear Mentors:
I have a question about where my H may be in the crisis. He has made quite a few leaps in connecting, but I think he still talks to OW, even if he doesn't see her, because he still has a password on his phone.
For example, he is, for the past 2 months or so, now kissing me regularly, not just sexual passionate wise but kisses on the forehead or my shoulder or my neck. He gives me hugs, back massages, and does stuff for me. He refers to me and introduces me as his wife again now. And refers to himself as my husband. Wants to have sex with me all the time. Wants me to watch TV or movies with him now, will call me in the room to show me something. Holds my hand or pulls me down on the bed for a bear hug or a kiss when I wake him up for work. Gives me money and lets me hold his checkbook and write checks on his bank account and even sign his name. Wants me to go with him to the store. Calls or texts me from work regularly. Talks to me about his day. Doesn't go out all the time, never stays out overnight anymore. Thanks me for little things, like passing him a tissue or getting him a drink. He does leave his phone in his pants or jacket sometimes overnight now, and not by his side as a crutch all the time. He also talks in the future, for example, a few days ago he said "If you have a good job next year, we are definitely joining the pool. I will be there everyday after work in the summer." Wow, a "commitment" a whole year from now he is contemplating?! LOL
And there have been times when I threw truth darts at him and he has responded by hugging or kissing me and rubbing my back. One time he said "I cant know how you feel." Almost an apology, but at least recognition. A year ago I was virtually invisible. My daughter was also invisible, mostly after I filed for D in December. Since about April, he spends time with her, tickles her constantly, tells her he loves her and that she is his best friend, buys her candy and is the dad that he used to be with her. Which is nice to see again.
As I also stated on my thread. The card that I gave him in March 2012 saying that I don't want the divorce or want him to leave, fell down off of the mirror visor in the passenger seat in his car the other day. The card fell right into my lap. I was floored. Not that he kept it, but that it would be in such an open place where OW or anyone else could find it, as I did. I expected that he would have tucked it away, not have it in somewhat plain view. I take this as a good sign, that maybe he isn't picking her up and spending time with her since then.
Does this change from virtually no affection and attention to alot mean maybe he is exiting replay, even though he may still be in phone contact with OW? I don't know if they can shift to cycle consistently towards you in replay. He isn't really cycling away anymore. Guess it could happen again, but its been at least a month or two where it has been only upwards.
Maybe its that he is cycling away from OW more and towards me now? I did start to implement GAL, going out almost once every weekend, not reacting to him, etc... and he started to pay more attention to me and become more affectionate.
And even if he is cycling away from OW, it hasn't gotten rid of my anger and empty hole that I feel that she was ever even in the picture, and that she was gloating about it in code on her FB page, all the while enjoying my pain. The thought of him even still talking to her, even if he is trying to withdraw, still makes my blood boil. I know that the OW is just a bandaid, but I need help in forgetting about her. Is that possible or reasonable of me to think I can accomplish this as long as I think he is still communicating with her, even if just by phone? Because the fact that he communicates with her by phone makes me think, when he says he is going somewhere, that maybe he is really going to see her.
Thank you and bless you all.
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Niek,
You asked about 'projection' - this link should take you to a nice article which helped me understand the dynamic.
http://suite101.com/article/what-is-projection-a60383
NR's response is great within the MLC arena but we are surrounded by projection of other peoples thoughts and feelings every day.
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Hi Mentors,
Here is a link to my thread (it's a couple weeks old).
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2630.0
I would like input on my situation. I am certainly the Left-Behind-Spouse. But I may also be the MLC-er (I had an EA that started July 2011 and became somewhat physical at the end of August, then a PA in September. It ended in October. Throughout this time I saw the OM very seldom (he lived 8 hours away) but I spent a lot of time on the phone with him, and in e-messages. My H left in October and filed for divorce the beginning of November. We started counseling around mid November.
I made a lot of mistakes. I was really scared. And I was really scared BEFORE the affair. Of what? My husband's power. The power balance in our relationship had been very one-sided for a long time. At least that's how it seemed to me. But enough to make me really afraid. He was emotionally and verbally abusive. He was also depressed.
The mistakes I made: I started out denying the affair. Then I denied it was anything other than an emotional affair. I denied sex occurred until January 2012. When I finally told him in the counselor's office he said I had saved the marriage. A few days later he canceled our counseling and told me he had signed a 2-year lease. He doesn't ask me questions about the affair, he just makes statements, some of which are true, some of which are absolutely not true, and I try to argue with him about them.
Before I started chatting online with the alienator, in fact the week that I did, it had already been several days of H not speaking with me, or even looking at me as he passed me in the hall. This was because he felt I had spent too much money on lego toys for our child. I had asked for a budget. He refused saying I would never stick to it so whats the point. But if the conversation even went that far at that time I am not sure. Mostly he just told me he was filing for divorce.
He has threatened me many times with this divorce thing. Now he has actually filed.
I'd like to Stand for my marriage no matter what. I feel I can contribute to this forum by sharing my experience from the other side of the tracks. I feel awful about everything I have done, but am able to talk about it and eager to process it. If I must try to save my marriage alone, I will.
My affair was triggered by a horrible feeling of crisis inside myself. Some of which was triggered by extreme vulnerability caused, sorry to say, by my husbands constant threats which put me right back into the feeling of being 12 years old again and raped by a 18-21 year old male. It's something I buried, but it was on the surface always and so much of my life has been spent acting out this pain. But that's not all that I am...the feeling that that is all i am is what happens when I am in a situation where I am being controlled by fear.
So many things to sort out. But when I first read the material here I really thought my H was in the throws of a MLC as well. Now I am not sure. Even if he has a PD, I want to save my marriage. I want to remain open about it and really grow and improve and take responsibility. I want to be able to separate out the hurt he is feeling that has nothing to do with me from the hurt I caused him and find calmness...forgivenes...not be constantly shocked by what he does and constantly afraid.
I am on what feels like a march to the cliff. Our divorce comes to the judge October 8 of this year. He is supportive some of the time, but people are telling me that he is doing that to make me more malleable or to blindsight me so he can really screw me over. He told me directly thursday night he wants full custody of our child!!!
Is there any way that you can help me, from your own experiences with your spouse's infidelity, to heal my marriage, and handle him in the right way? Rules? What did you need from your spouse to be able to forgive?
And am I totally off-base to think that he is in a long-drawn out replay mode, (he bought his MLC sportscar the month our son was born saying "there is no room in it for a baby, or groceries" and then took his daughter with him to El Salvador for several weeks with the parish to fantasize he was 'Father Romeo' while our child was a newborn!) I guess what I need to know is if I can apply principles from the MLC analysis to my husband even if I am the one with the most overt and recent MLC.
It's really complicated, I know. Can someone help?
I have responded on your thread.
limitless
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NoPressure,
The mods asked me to post to you and I've been working on a response for a few days now.
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thanks rollercoasterrider. I have been getting a lot of help, but i just have more questions. When i first found this site I was thinking of myself as the LBS. It slowly dawned on me that I am in MLC. And probably more quickly than to other MLCers because I am in Jungian therapy...so I identify easily with these identity scenarios.
Always my confusion in my marriage has been Is it him or is it just in my mind?
I have continually begged to go to therapy, and he has refused. I have continually stated i don't want a divorce but he has continually threatened me with one, for years.
I want to stay here and learn, but which role am I playing? It's both an intellectual question for me and an emotional one.
I look forward to your response!
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Hello I have a question on a topic that I need help with. I know we are suppesed to go on about our lives as if our MLCer is never coming back. I have a live in MLCer that takes everything for granted. I mean all the little things you do for your spouse each day, like laundry or cooking, going to the store if they ask you to.
I am at the point where my W does none of this for me at all. She has cut me out of her life pretty well. Should I continue to do these things for her or follow suit and stop doing these things. I look at it as doing nice things for her as a benefit of marriage after all a roommate would not be so nice.
So I guess my question is do I stoop to her level and act like a spoiled kid that is not getting it's way and stop doing my chores?
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Quick question that I need help with…for 2 years since BD, OW (who I believe now lives with H) has remained a complete secret. I received an email from H (who continues to be somewhat distant but very friendly as long as we don’t discuss our relationship) asking about a missing piece of mail, which I clearly remember mailing to him. I am tempted to say I mailed it, have you asked (OW name) if she has seen it? He has no idea I know about her. Any thoughts? Is it best to let the OW remain a secret or get it out in the open to try to push him out of this limbo? (Sidenote: he did file for divorce 2 years ago and could finalize at any time, but seems to be dragging his heels.) Thank you.
H2H
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Taken to your thread to answer :)
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Do they ever say they're sorry and mean it?
BleaHHHHH! I'm tired of this! xH drops our children off at home and races off--is OW pressuring him, or is he running away from me? Both?
I just want to know if he'll ever have the ba!!s to say he's sorry! >:(
I responded on your thread. limitless
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YOu ask if they ever say they are sorry----
It took my ex 14 yrs to say he deserves anything I say to him! Although not actually the words<I'm sorry, that is as close as he has ever gotten. I do believe that was his way of finally realizing what he did and the pain it caused.
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My exH has expressed "I'm sorry" several times in the past..........nearly a year ago (after his failed suicide attempt). He said he was sorry he failed me. I told him he failed himself. Well, he apologized more than I can remember. He finally told me his therapist told him he had to stop apologizing for everything. I had also told him to stop telling me he was sorry since I had forgiven him. He has thanked me for treating him the way I have treated him. He referred to me as a "good person, good wife and ex-wife". Like I said earlier, it was nearly a year ago and about 2 years BD.
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He did say he was sorry during and right after BD, but it was more of a "don't be mad at me please" sort of "sorry." There was no reflection, no desire to make anything right. Just a "I'm going to do this, sorry."
Ah, anyway, it's not so much that I want "sorry" as much as I want him to realize what he's done and make it stop.
But I know intellectually that he can't stop. I just was feeling sorry for myself.
A bit of wallowing myself! :-\
I'll be ok--thanks to you all for your support!
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Mine has said 'sorry' many times but it's 'sorry I hurt you' [but I'm doing it anyway]. What would be a satisfactory 'sorry' for me? Sobbing on the floor begging my forgiveness? Nope. I don't even want to hear it--I will settle for misery & depression in his life. Wait, he already has it.
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Mine has said 'sorry' many times but it's 'sorry I hurt you' [but I'm doing it anyway]. What would be a satisfactory 'sorry' for me? Sobbing on the floor begging my forgiveness? Nope. I don't even want to hear it--I will settle for misery & depression in his life. Wait, he already has it.
That is a great one Calamity
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I told him after BD that I wanted him to fight for me.
Oh, how FOOLISH I was!
He had no fight in him! He said so.
I want him to fight for me, not sob on the floor. I want him to woo me.
He can't.
I want misery for OW. She is smug. I know, I know, she's insecure and crazy, but I see smug. She hurt my children, she hurt me, she hurts my xH. I want misery for her.
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My H texted me on January 1st that he realized that 2011 had been a very difficult year for me and that he he knows he is responsible for that. That seems nice doesn't it. But the then: 'I hope that in 2012 you also will find happiness again'. The last sentence shows he still lacks empathy.
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this is making me so sad. Hugs everyone!
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Could someone give some examples of how to approach the paragraph below? What could I say? How could I say it? In what context? Isn't this relationship talk?
"It is okay to confirm to your MLCer that you wish this were not happening, that you miss him and that the circumstances sadden you. But let him know only in an informational manner rather than through showing those things with emotional energy that is or risks becoming uncontrolled. Let him know that regardless of the circumstances you are choosing to find and create joy in your life."
Thanks :)
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Dear H,
I hope you know that I do not wish for anything like this to happen and that you are with me emotionally, spiritually, and physically. I also accept that this is not going to happen right now. I also want to let you know that GOD has shown me that life does go on and that I can and will create joy in my life as well as the lives of our children.
Always,
Jag
or
You ungrateful cheating loser. I hope you get an ingrown toenail, develop halitosis, and come down with ringworm. I also pray that ow gets acne that makes it look like her face caught on fire and someone used an ice pick to put it out. Also I hope she confesses to you that she was once a man and was worried after the operation that no one would accept him as a her.
By the way, I miss you but in the meantime, I am gambling away our retirement in Vegas so I can forget about you while I have a little fun.
Love Jag
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Ready, that was genius.
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Ready...thanks for the good laugh this morning. Absolutely hilarious :)
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Good one Ready I got a good laugh from it also. Thanks I can always use one.
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My husband hasn't gone out lately. Seems like he may b trying to come home. How should i respond he looks miserable. im wondering if he isn't happy.
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Ready,
That is sooooooo damn funny. I vote for the second paragraph. Im laughing so hard. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
FH
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On a serious note, I was wondering, when they leave replay and I know that the stages can overlap and that they are depressed thoughout, how can you tell the difference? Is it just that you dont see monster or at least not as much? ::) ::)
Just wondering out loud but, an answer would be great.
FH
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On a second note its almost like he is thinking. Today he came home and appears to be ok. just trying to not fall for the BS its his journey as they say, not mine
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Answers to both. Until the journey is complete, it is really hard to pinpoint the exact changes. Instead, you plow ahead and when the journey is over, you will know it.
From what I understand, they do overlap and it is more about the amount of energy they spend at each stage. They can be in replay, withdraw, go back to replay, enter withdrawal again- just to run back to replay.
It is not an easy journey.
((((hugs)))
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Here is my .02 FWIW
When you have a low energy MLC'er take Conways stages and throw them out the window.
RCR has described Jung's/Stein's stages and they are more applicable to Low Energy.
They may be done with Replay but still in Escape and Avoid.
They will not reconnect until they break withdrawal(Conway).
There seems to be a separate script for Low Energy where Replay is very short but Escape and Avoid is very long.
Best to not focus on stages as this will lead to EXPECTATIONS and everyone knows how I feel about them......
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I am still reading all the articles , as I am new to this site.
Question about long term affairs and replay. As the affair continues with same person, Does there come a time when it is no longer considered replay ?
Answered on your thread - OldPilot
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Bit of an off topic question, but may be important.
I was looking back through past posts when my virus checker blocked a page (can't remember whose) saying the page had been compromised by a hacker through planet smilies....
Just thought I'd put a warning out there....
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I am a newbie, here's my story
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2731.0
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I have a question,,
At BD, my h said all kinds of horrible things to me. Some true, some not. The one thing that he said that still sticks with me is that I killed his soul.
So, the question.
When is it my turn to tell him what he did to me in this marriage. He never made me feel good enough. Was never supportive when it came to his family bashing me or our girls.
Never told me I was pretty (unless asked).
Wasn't affectionate.
Wanted to spend money on stupid things, and when I said it wasn't a good idea, would whine and complain until I gave in.
Was the master manipulator with words, used guilt to get what he wanted.
WHEN IS IT GOING TO BE MY TURN >:( >:( >:( >:(
FH
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At BD, my h said all kinds of horrible things to me. Some true, some not.
I think it's good that you are able to recognize both of these, and hopefully you know the difference. I think we have to work on the things that were said that were true (if we agree that these are deficiencies) and recognize and reject what was false.
The one thing that he said that still sticks with me is that I killed his soul.
Hate to say it, but, you're not that powerful. Truth is, he really didn't know what was in his soul, and that's the problem. He's projecting onto you. Someone in the family you describe below--the family that felt it was ok to bash you and your children--probably has a lot to do with him feeling like his soul is dead. Do you agree? This is classic MLC script--they attribute someone's bad behavior, sometimes even their own, on to you. It's convenient--you're a repository for all that is bad in his life, and he will dump everything on you and then cut you loose. In time he will realize that demonizing you did him no good. Not addressing the truth, and making up untruths, is not conducive to a happy and productive or constructive life. It may take him a good deal of time to face reality. In the mean time, you must find YOUR truth.
When is it my turn to tell him what he did to me in this marriage. He never made me feel good enough. Was never supportive when it came to his family bashing me or our girls.
Never told me I was pretty (unless asked).
Wasn't affectionate.
Wanted to spend money on stupid things, and when I said it wasn't a good idea, would whine and complain until I gave in.
Was the master manipulator with words, used guilt to get what he wanted.
WHEN IS IT GOING TO BE MY TURN >:( >:( >:( >:(
FH
Ha-ha, your truth is NOW. NOW is your time to work on becoming strong and SELF-assured. And when you have worked on becoming the person you are meant to be, and when you believe in your SELF, and you have grown, your SELF confidence will be so much more meaningful than empty words from a person who admits he has no soul! It won't matter that HE doesn't want to say you're good enough, because you'll be good enough (even better than that!) to your SELF. This will come from meaningful work, from making contributions to society--maybe getting an education or using the one you have, by helping other people, by raising your children well, by developing meaninful HEALTHY relationships. All those things will make you feel rightfully very good about your SELF. YOU won't allow your SELF or your daughters to be bashed by unhealthy people. And their opinions won't matter, anyway. (I personally don't care what rude, insecure people think of me, frankly, and nor should you. And you should teach your daughters that their self worth comes from within--they'll never make everyone happy, but they should discard insults that are meant to hurt, not meant to help them grow or be better. They should surround themselves with HEALTHY people who will ENRICH their lives, not people who are a drag.) You will work on creating a look for your SELF that you like. Live a healthy life--eat well and get exercise. You will love your SELF for it! You won't CARE whether he tells you you're pretty enough, if you're happy with your SELF, and if you surround your SELF with people who give off good vibes and who are supportive and lovely. Be lovely. Don't be needy. Get to the point where you don't ALLOW yourself to be manipulated. Why did you ALLOW it? Now is your time to figure out why. Is it because you were afraid he'd get mad and leave or make you feel badly about yourself? Well? That's over with, isn't it. Spend some time alone, resetting your "BS meter" so that you will instantly recognize his BS and his attempts at manipulation. As spouses we spent SO LONG filtering everything they said to us, that we stopped hearing what they were actually saying. An outsider wouldn't stand for the way we were treated, so why should we?
NOW IS YOUR TIME!
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No Regrets,
I'm there. Believe me I am, finally and I do feel very powerful. ;) It took me a long time to get there. My girls have been taught that and even more since this whole mess started. I have FINALLY become the person I wanted to be but due to issues that I never really dealt with kept me from becoming.
I LIKE ME. As for his family, the one person that gave me and my girls the most grief was his step mother and step sister. I would always wait for him to address issues and he never would, so when I did he would say "why do you say anything it only makes it worse". I was the one that constantly fought the battles. He was as he always has been the ostrich. If you don't address it maybe it will go away.
That has been the biggest problem in my marriage. That's why I want to tell him what he has done to me, and my girls. He once said when I asked him how do you think this is going to affect our girls and he said "I'm from divorced parents and I turned out OK" :o :o :o :o :o :o :o I though even then, really does it look like your OK?
Another question:
They should surround themselves with HEALTHY people who will ENRICH their lives, not people who are a drag
That's exactly it, what am I teaching them by staying with someone who says that they don't want me or love me? Do I want my girls to think that its OK, to be treated like this, the answer is HELL NO.
They have pulled back from the grandparents because they say that we, dad and I are the white elephants in the room. They feel uncomfortable. Because of this the family is split. Even though their dad and I get along well enough, and we don't argue or fight, the fact remains that we are not together. We live in the same house but are roommates.
They seem to stay away from the house more and more. I know that they are at the age where they are finding themselves, and some of it is just that. But, both have said the same thing.
When they are home they stay in their rooms. At ask myself all the time if Ive done the best for my girls, or was I just thinking about me.
FH
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FH said - He was as he always has been the ostrich. If you don't address it maybe it will go away.
This exactly my XW. I believe being avoidant and not addressing problem may be a common characteristic of many MLCers.
FH said 'what am I teaching them by staying with someone who says that they don't want me or love me? Do I want my girls to think that its OK, to be treated like this, the answer is HELL NO'
I absolutely agree. It is important for all LBSers to be cognizant of this when they have children. What you do now, will be interpreted as what they can do in the future. This is how kids learn.
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FH said - He was as he always has been the ostrich. If you don't address it maybe it will go away.
This exactly my XW. I believe being avoidant and not addressing problem may be a common characteristic of many MLCers.
FH said 'what am I teaching them by staying with someone who says that they don't want me or love me? Do I want my girls to think that its OK, to be treated like this, the answer is HELL NO'
I absolutely agree. It is important for all LBSers to be cognizant of this when they have children. What you do now, will be interpreted as what they can do in the future. This is how kids learn.
I am not sure that this is always true, I mean by this line of reasoning none of us should be standing, we should all have left or kicked the spouse out at first BD. This is a confusing point for me. My kids are all older and understand what I am trying to accomplish but I can see younger kids being affected much more.
I am also at the point of giving up on her and letting go. I have finally reached a tentative point of detachment but the things I notice more and more are things that make me want to leave. Little things that when added up make my W a very unattractive person to live with. We are also living as room mates and it is killing me slowly. I keep thinking it is better to take the hit and hurt now and get away from the daily grind of being reminded that I cannot have a relationship with her. No matter what I feel inside I cannot reach out and touch her or ML to her. So why torture myself? Just confused right now......
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This is such an interesting thread.
OK, first I have always taught my daughters, 23 and 17 to never, ever stay with anyone that didn't treat them with the utmost respect. That if they weren't caring and compassionate, then pass them by. If they had a tendency to be selfish or self-centered that it was who they were.
They know that relationships are about compromising, there has to be a give and take but if that person is more willing to take then to give, pass them by. I didn't hold true to these things, I made the mistake of thinking that these things would change.
To be honest, in the beginning of a relationship, everyone puts their best foot forward, and when I started to see the selfishness, the lack of affection or emotion, I made excuses. I was in love, still am. Now, don't get my wrong, I did alot that I wasn't proud of, the OCD, the controlling. But I made amends. I learned to change these things, not because of him. These things that I didn't like about myself bothered me on a daily bases.
I owned what mistakes that I had made. I apologized for them (again for me not him). I made myself a better person. That's what love is suppose to be about isn't it? You whatever it takes to make things better, different. You don't make the same mistakes over and over again.
Now, my girls don't know about MLC, and to be honest, don't think that they would believe it anyways. I also have a son 35 for a previous marriage, and he cant understand how I could let myself be treated like I don't matter. I have explained to him about MLC, and now that its been so long, he says "mom at some point he needs to man up and decide what he wants". Are you willing to live like this for the rest of your life.
He has also talked to his sisters, and tells them you know this isn't how you should let someone treat you, right? I have always told my h that you lead by example. He has always had one set of rules for him and another for everyone else.
I don't want girls to think that's what IM doing. One set of rules for them and another for me. I've always tried to lead by example. What kind of example am I setting now.
Yes, on the one hand I hope that they see that their mom did what she had to do to save her marriage. That I showed them what commitment looks like, since apparently at this time their dad doesn't. That unconditional love does exist. I try to talk to them about these things, and honestly don't know if I get through or not. Most of the time, they just don't want to hear it.
So, i just keep what I think and feel to myself. I just don't want them to think that I have compromised my beliefs.
FH
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FH,
I think what you wrote was great. It was great because it really expressed what a lot of people must be juggling and thinking. Where do we draw the line of do as I say and not as I do? Where is the grey area? What does compromise mean? I think every situation is different and I do think that older children make things even more complicated. For now, I have the luxury of having two young children who will not remember this time period. So, for now, I am able to make decisions based on what is in the best interest for their future. Whatever my choice will be will be made by me with them in mind and with no input from them. If their dad decides he is completely out, I will be able to raise them with having a dad that loves them but not me....and it has been done time and time again. If he decides he wants the family and we work it out, they will be raised with a dad and never really knowing what went on....again....I have about a year left before their input and their memory kicks in.
I know this is a very trying time and that your daughters are old enough to understand what is going on but are not old enough to "get it" (if that makes any sense). I have very firm morals, but when kids are involved I think our morals have to be re-visited for the sake of the kids and what is in the best interest of the kids. If we were with an abusing husband and we had kids, we would walk away even if we did not believe in divorce (that is where mother's draw the line). However, when it comes to infidelity, are we not a little more grey in our morals and what we will accept for the sake of the kids? Maybe? i don't know...just a thought...kids change you in many, many ways...more than we will ever know....
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Hmmmm, interesting comments. When speaking of children, I suppose I am talking about the younger ones like mine, 8 and 10.
I do believe 'STANDING' and being a 'DOORMAT' are two different things.
I don't believe that LBSers should let the MLCer treat them like crap, especially in front of the children.
I suppose boundaries need to be set, and how far the line is drawn is subjective. Perhaps that is why I am divorced.
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Continuation of discussion topic.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2738.0