Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: WarriorPriestess on February 28, 2012, 01:46:36 PM
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Previous thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2125
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Hey Mamma Bear—and everyone else.
A few days ago there was a comment about you being obsessive regarding the alienator. Now that brings up an interesting issue—in general. LBSs can over-focus on alienators or MLCers or simply MLC itself. For the record I am not convinced that you are obsessive, but I do think you focus a lot on the alienator.
It’s normal. Just like MLCers have a process, so do LBSs. Focusing on the MLCer, MLC (stages, reasons…) and MLCers is all normal. But normal does not mean healthy. Hey, I’ve got an entire section of articles dedicated to self-focus!
Mamma Bear, I think you have a firm and logical grasp of the alienator in the context of MLC.
That is why we call the OM/OW a band aid. They are just covering up a wound. A temporary shield, if you will, that keeps the wound covered up while the MLCer looks for happiness or worth or something they are missing.
See, that is exactly what I mean.
I only make fun of the OW to help me remember the whole "symptom" thing. You know the hardest part of the MLC is the OW affair. Right? So at 12 months post abandonment I'm cool. I'm not missing out on anything! Really. ;) I know OW is just a symptom of his lonely state and hers. She's just a person but I do need to laugh about the ridiculous activity I am witnessing from the man who said continuously "It took me 35 years to find you I am never going to let you go"
I agree. At times we need to laugh at the absurdity and we need to share that with each other. And I’m with you, alienators can be absurd.
I mean really, Sweetheart’s alienator said she was practically a virgin. I can’t even think of a come-back to write. She had an 18 or 19 year-old daughter at the time she said that. Absurd.
She faked a pregnancy, but it was obvious. How was it obvious? Sweetheart knew her cycle. She had a period and 2 weeks later she said she took a pregnancy test—coincidentally at 1am a few hours after he told her he was leaving her. Um…she had 2 more weeks until her period was even due again. Absurd.
A couple months later she claimed she had some problem with her brain—water or a growth—and she would die if it weren’t fixed and she would not have it fixed unless he came back to her; that is what I mean when I say that she threatened indirect suicide. Absurd.
Yes, the most difficult part (for most) is the affair. It’s the idea that they would have an affair, it’s who they chose, it’s the shock that someone would do that to a family and it is the behavior of the alienator that keeps the MLCer cycling and yo-yoing—the Emotional Blackmail.
I know you don't just blame the other woman… but you really seem to burden the OW, with way more than her share. In my opinion, you do not hold your MLCer as responsible for this situation as you do the OW.
…I can't help but think, you are giving away a lot of power to your husband’s other woman.
I don’t know whether you are giving the alienator more responsibility than your MLCer or not. But I do think that you give alienators more power when you talk about them so much. Have your fun, but temper it and balance with more on the side of Self-Focus—much more!
But we all need to realize and accept that having this sort of fun is just part of the process and we will get through it. So let me share with you some of my fun.
I found a dating site and registered the alienator. This dating site was pretty lewd already. I created a profile and there was also this survey to complete—a purity survey or scale. I completed the scale and signed her up for all sorts of things and only left one out. Things like group orgies, girl-girl, girl-guy-girl, guy-guy-girl, watching…you get the idea. I then wrote a description that was apparently too nasty for even that site. I toned it down just a bit, but honestly, not much. She had some interesting likes that were certain to make her quite popular…I don’t know about the real alienator, but the profile I created was bound for popularity.
I then posted a naked picture of her along with a quite flattering (sarcasm) photo of her on the toilet.
I called my Dad and brother and read them the profile—I might have only suggested what I wrote to my Dad since it was not something I even wanted to say to my Dad. Within ~12 hours she had either 112 or 160 private messages. I read them all. They included photos and most were not of faces. Only 2 figured out she’d p!$$ed someone off. I took it down within a few days, but for a day or 2 I couldn’t get it down—it was stuck. But I did not include the alienator’s phone number, the only truly identifying piece of information were the photos…Oh and I registered her within her region. It was my Dad who told me I’d had my fun and now I needed to take it down—he said it laughing his head off.
I did fantasize about other things though.
- Putting a naked picture of her up on the giant electronic advertising billboard over the freeway with a request to call. Sending the same thing to everyone at her work.
- I imagined being able to travel out of body and appear in her bedroom or bathroom in the middle of the night and looking like a ghost (since I would not have a body) scare her half to death, then scare her the other half a day later!
- Hiring a very pregnant lady (or new Mom) to knock on her door when both she and Sweetheart were there and then accuse him of cheating on her…that one still makes me laugh.
- Ordering a her a subscription to Bride’s Magazine to scare Sweetheart with her intentions. My Dad told me I would be the prime suspect in that one!
And those last 2 fantasies were late in MLC—2008. I didn’t spend a lot of time on them, but I did come up with them and they were entertaining. I didn’t post them though. Why? I was no longer posting, but had I been posting I would have been berated.
So was I giving power to the alienator?
I honestly don’t think so, though I could be wrong. I was doing so much regarding positive progress that I don’t think my occasional entertaining fantasies were harmful. But had I brought them to the boards—where I had influence—they might have had a negative influence on the progression of other LBSs and enabled others to give too much power to the alienator. I thought a lot about the practice what you preach versus do as I say, not as I do dilemma.
At one point (maybe more than once) Sweetheart got fed up with me because he said I was blaming the alienator for everything and not blaming him as well. I was blaming both of them, but that’s one of those tightrope things. We want a relationship without spouse. We love our spouse. We believe in the core person. But that means we are loving a cheater and an abandoner. We don’t have any love (other than agape) for the alienator and most of us do not ever want a relationship with the alienator. The exception might (might) be the LBS whose alienator was her sister. So we may have an easier time forgiving our MLCer or it may seem that way to the MLCer since we are trying to protect our love for them and not name-call, but we don’t have a love to protect for the alienator.
I don't obsess about OW. I have a full life and I am always busy. (relaxing too)
…The hardest part of this for me is accepting the two of them naked sleeping together. To help with the hurt and pain, I make fun of her. I have never felt that ANY OF THIS was her fault.
…Since his band aid has been posting wedding rings and wedding planners on her FB wall and no talk of divorce has happened, I merrily stroll through his crisis making fun of the ugly band aid he has acquired. My bad!
…I know making fun of people is not nice but I NEED to do it! Stress reliever...
I get the making fun of her. Here’s my question; are you making fun of her personally or of alienators in general? Most of my fantasies involved the alienator in physicality, but really they were general. I made up a profile that other than the photos had nothing to do with the actual person.
I’m not saying it’s better to be impersonal than personal, what I’m wondering is whether what you are making fun of too close to home? Are you making fun of things that might be considered cruel, inappropriate or inconsiderate if they were true and she weren’t an alienator? Extreme Example: making fun of a disability. Or even character assassinations?
The first time he broke up with the alienator I told Sweetheart to do it in person—no sneaking away. Why? Because I did not want him disrespecting anyone, not even her. A person who disrespects one person can disrespect everyone else—including you. Well, when we take our fantasies of the alienator too far and make them personal, we are doing the same thing. We are disrespecting another human being—even if we don’t want to admit the alienator is a human. We are disrespecting another creature.
This is a place of love and support, not a place to degrade and insult others—including your MLC spouse.
I thought I might have said even the alienator for that last example, but I guess I’m wrong. But I think I need to add it. We don’t have to like alienators, but agape is not about liking or having a relationship with them. I talk a lot about behavior versus character in regards to the MLCer. MLCers are behaving badly, but that does not mean they are bad. Same with alienators. We have an easier time accepting that regarding our MLCers because of our personal investment.
So Miss Affair Down Wales is getting that c*ap also because our MLCer’s previous persona is on vacation. (affair down doesn't care. any man will do as long as he's married)
Is it true that any married man will do?
Yes, it is absolutely true for some alienators. Most of those are not looking for a full relationship and they want the convenience of a man who is married since he won’t monopolize her time or emotions. MLCers want a relationship and will likely be too needy for such alienators.
Then there are some who prey on married men because they have no respect for women and/or they are jealous. In those circumstances the MLCer is just the dumb one who was available, but the real intended victim is the betrayed spouse. The alienator wants what someone else has and it is a competition.
But many Affair Down alienators are not specifically looking only for married men. They clearly lack boundaries and are willing to take what they get, but that’s the point. They get married men in MLC because the other guys aren’t going to be interested. Affair Down alienators who are mid 30s and older are more likely to have patterns of Affair Down behaviors in their relationships—regardless of whether the relationships are infidelitous or not. They are more likely than their younger counterparts to have a Personality Disorder and use Emotional Blackmail.
Then there are those poor naïve girls who have not yet grown up—early 20s—and who think this is how relationships start. They may become involved with someone in a position of power over them or maybe a co-worker, but they really are simply ignorant and before they know it they’ve been trapped by the hormones. Yes, they agreed to a sexual relationship—or encounter—with someone who was married and they may have tried to avoid it and fallen in to the sin. They may have felt shame and guilt for their actions, but once the hormones get involved the alienator loses control and becomes like the other, older more mature women who are Affairs Down. One the hormones take over, the young and naïve alienator may begin to behave like the older Affairs Down; they will display attributes of Personality Disorders. But that does not mean these younger alienators are as messed up as their older counterparts or that they actually have Personality Disorders. We all have situations in which we react with negative attributes, possessive in-fatuation has a tendency to bring out the worst when the recipient resists or has a spouse or others in the circle of influence who are resistant.
In the end, I pity Sweetheart’s alienator. That is probably not something she considers pleasant. I pray for her. I hope that she gets help not only so other families are not destroyed, but so that she can have a fulfilled and productive life. I don’t wish harm on her, though I do wish challenges for her in order to promote growth.
I don’t want any of you to think you are doing something wrong on the board by talking about the alienator, laughing at and about her and not even by calling her names. But at the same time I do not personally advocate it and (of course) some names will cross the appropriate threshold and need editing. But you aren’t committing some violation by calling the alienator Bowser. Back on the other forum there were nicknames. Some alienators were Rat Face or the Ghost and some MLCers were Peter Pan, PeaBrain and Puffy. And for a brief period—about a week or 2—I called Sweetheart’s alienator Ugly. I stopped when I realized I was just enabling the over-focus as well as the character-assassinations. About a week or so after I stopped, PeaBrain’s LBS called me out for it after I wrote something recommending we not do that anymore. Her argument had little weight since I’d already announced why I was not going to do it anymore. At times I lovingly referred to Sweetheart as Nutcase—but that was rarely online and never without also calling him Sweetheart.
I understand the negative names, but I’m not going to advocate them and neither will I ban them unless they get worse or something.
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Thanks for doing this for me WP, this thread has certainly attracted a lot of very good input.
On the last thread Sassy posted a very interesting article on MLC & Depression, which a lot of us have found very interesting, informative and although it is on the board, it's good to be remind of.
Thank you for input Rollercoaster. I'm not sure if my ex's in an affair down, we were not together and as far as we are concerned we are single. I refer to her as Miss Wales (she lives in Wales) because I don't know anything about her, only the little bits he has told me, because I asked if he had meet someone special. When I asked if was serious he said yes it's getting that way. He did tell me he was going to tell me what he next saw me but I wonder if he would have told me about her, but that's something I will never know, although I knew - gut feel - that he had meet someone else. Weird isn't is how you know. My last posting was this because my ex‘s attitude towards me has changed: ‘Odd, very odd. He's only been acting like this since he meet Miss Wales. Before that he'd call every 2 or 3 weeks and his txt always finished with an 'x'. Not anymore’. Now I'm someone who he treats with contempt
Yes I do obsess about her, not totally. But all the thoughts that go through my head are: What has she got that I haven't, I'm assuming she's a lot younger than me, beautiful, intellient, slim etc. Am I doing myself a diservice, yes I am. I am beginning to see that I am a lovely person, kind, caring, funny who's fun to be around. Yes I have my faults, and I be the first to tell you about them, but don't we all. Believe me when I say I am only just beginning to see the good side of me, until now I have always put myself down; not good enough, fat, ugly. I often thought I wasn't good enough for him, not intelligent enough. I often asked what did he see in me etc. I'm beginning to turn that around now and I'm starting to think actually he was lucky to have me in his life.
Those of you who have been following my thread will know that I find it hard to trust my initution, and I question is it wishful thinking. This is something I am also working on. Ok I will share this, and it is hard to admit to and share because I could be totally off track, and he is really happy with her, but I actually feel she is a distraction, someone who can take his mind off of what's really going on. I don't feel he's happy and that he's running away yet again from himself. I do know he still cares for me, maybe that's why he's treating me with totally indifference. Like I say, I could be barking totally up the wrong tree.
Wow! That's a first, I'm so use to putting myself down. I feel quite enlightend ;D (Honestly I don't blow my own trumpet)
I always refer to my ex's first ow as Scary Bird (his son's mum), because that's exactly what she is, she did everything in power to break us up and break him. She succeed in both. Personally I think she is a very sad woman, lonely and because she can't have him, she makes sure that no one else does.
BTW I almost phone tarot tonight, but I didn't and that felt very impowering. So I went to the bottle bank instead, then went and bought a new pair of pj's (from a shop not the bottle bank :D). I'm very proud of myself. That's twice now I have stopped myself.
I realised today, that after seeing my new Coucellor it's the first time for over a week I haven't had a bad tension headache. That's a good sign :D
Thanks all for helping through this. I really am listening now and working on detachment is a priority.
Hugs SKxxxx
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Good job SK. You are doing great! :)
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RCR Hey thanks for posting on here. I was thinking of what to say back to you. Ah geez...Sometimes I kid HB that "Elvis is in the building" when I see her on here in the wee hours of the night.
She's like a cup of warm milk by a nice fire :) Who's bigger than Elvis? Hmmmm? That's who I want to say is in the building when you're here. The Pope..Springsteen....Adele... ??? How about RCR is IN the building! ;D ;D
I always wanted to get coaching and I will have to figure it out. Never tried but I want for you to be a millionaire. You are Einstein how you figured this all out and rolled it into this safe haven. Thanks. You're a life saver and your cohorts in compassion and giving are as well.
About Bowser. She is not anyone I have ever seen or spoken to Thank God! Apparently from what I can deduce my H was lamenting to her outside her job at a gas station/convenience store (sorry LOL) My Hs mom lived with us and it all exploded on him. He was drinking and ran away to leave his life here behind. :'(
He said she was going to let him leave his guitars and amps at her apt and when he asked if her H would mind.....she said "I'm divorced" and they got hit by a tsunami ??? ::) :P :'( :'( :-* :-* :-*
I am the most empathetic person in the world. Really. I'll pick up hitchhikers and murderers. While he stayed over there for 6 weeks and never let me or the Ds 8 and 10 know where he was. :'(
Now we have a smart Mama Bear bc of all of you! Up until last week I always would think of ow. But like bad food it finally passed. I feel differently now. Maybe getting 2x4'd by Stayed (it's cool) I'm from Brooklyn LOL! Watch your back Stayed. LOL.. I am now thinking not at all about ow. I need a new name how's Princess Bowser ??? That shows Agape.
What I'm getting at is...what am I getting at ???
Oh yeah, it's like in college. I never bought the books. I always sat up front and looked at the teacher and listened to what they TOLD US! That is how to succeed with any task at hand ;)
Here on The Hero's Spouse (Like The Home Depot) We as students need to sit up front and listen to what the teacher is saying. I get it. Positive brings in positive and negative sucks you into a big hole of bad stuff!!! Choice is ours..there's a whole world out there...out here...and we owe it to ourselves and our children coming after to be the best we can be with the time we are given. ::) Not bad if I don't say so myself. Thanks RCR Princess Bowser Band Aids.....Oh and I would never have tried that computer stunt you spoke of at ows expense. Your Dad sounds like a rascal! ;)
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Wow Mamma when I grow up I want to write like you! :) You always make us laugh. RCR thanks for the reminder. It isn't about them but we are human and we fall into that trap of making fun of OW. Not nice, but we do. For me, I don't like to share, but I am fully aware that it is my H's fault and not OW's. We need to remember that even though they are going through MLC they do know between right and wrong, they just don't care.
Sassy
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I have been reading many threads and posts and I just wanted to add my own "feelings" concerning this whole topic.
First of all, the forum is for all of us to come to write, vent, and deal with our issues. I have read the articles, but I have not memorized. The one thing that I have always felt comfortable about was that there was no right way to act and that we were all in this together. As I posted, I got friendly notes and posts.
Mine is not an exciting thread nor does it have much "action". Believe me, there is no action....I really would like some action.
As far as OM, you can go back and read my own feelings. Taking a golf club to his computer. Having a UK LBSer kick the crap out of him. 20 quid, any takers? I envisioned taking them both to the gates and having them stoned.
Come on, I was competing against a fantasy and reality can never beat reality. "English Bob" was and stupid threats allowed me to focus on him first, then on myself and actually detach from the entire situation. It took a long time and when the affair is in your home and in your face, it really hurts.
Bowser was a riot. Lawyer boy cracks me up too!
I remember writing to Valise and referring to OW as the insect. It actually helped her feel better as she begun to see herself as a person and OW as something less. It helps build the self-esteem and by focusing on the OW/OM, we can stop focusing on our spouses and let go by shifting our energy from the MLCer to the alienator.
Our forum is for others to come and post their feelings and thoughts- to explore themselves as much as they explore the MLC. The last thing I want is for a lbser who is facing monsters at home to face monsters at the forum. It goes against what we are about and what we stand for. We are here to support- not inflict more harm.
Everyone is right that OM/OW is a bandaid for the MLCer and I accept that fact, but the thoughts of OM and my w together, their words, their secret texts and chats, their promises was a huge gash to my heart. I came to the forum for comfort and some gauze for my wounds and that is what I got. I can only hope that those new to the forum receive the same treatment- not a tourniquet.
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RCR..you did that...really??????? ;D
I have to agree with Ready and actually I have had times when people's comments have struck a chord in me and caused me to get upset...and then I think..what good is it for me to come here..just needing some TLC and then get criticized?
Yet...this place probably 99.9% is so full of love and care for one another. Yes we have different viewpoints, and certainly different styles.....I am mostly just happy that this is a place for me..my thoughts, my fears, my dreams.
As time goes by, the MLCer matters less..especially when they aren't in your life. The betrayal is very real though and that will take most of us a long time to let go of.
Sometimes...we have to be brave enough to say..hey that hurt..I needed a hug not a hit...because the written media doesn't allows allow us to be understood.
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I have always found this forum a place of great comfort and support, especially now I'm ready to move on.
SK xxx
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This is an interesting thread (as was the last one!). I don't really have much to add, except that I also struggle with OW. At the moment I am concentrating on forgiving her and praying for her. I don't know too much about her and I try not to find out too much, thanks to advice on here.
My kids are older and have been exposed to her since the affair became public. I don't like it but I can't anything about it.
I am not totally convinced she is an affair down because I really don't know a lot about her - she is much loved by my SILs and my kids seem to think she is ok.
I try not to give her much head space but it is hard when she is mentioned by the kids and SILs quite frequently - so my focus is to forgive her and pray for her just so I don't go off in the opposite direction...
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Ready, well put:
I came to the forum for comfort and some gauze for my wounds and that is what I got. I can only hope that those new to the forum receive the same treatment- not a tourniquet.
I too received this and was in dire need of this. It was awesome, I found people that understood and believed in what I believed in. Yet on the otherhand, they were truthful and honest. A good 2x4 never hurt anyone! :)
I agree we all vent and that's okay. I think RCR and a few others are concerned that there is a lot of focus on the OW/OM. For the most part I think we all can agree that they are a bandaid, but you are right it leaves a big big deep gash in our hearts that takes a long time to heal.
So this place should be a safe place to vent, but when venting turns to obession, I for one want someone to be honest and point it out to me. I agree Bowser and Lawyer boy are hilarious too, now if I could only come up for a good name for my H's exOW . . . (oh wait she is gone now I need to let her go!) :)
I have said over and over this place was a lifesaver for me and I am sure for others. Let's keep it that way.
Sassy
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Get ready to laugh..Sassy, your Hs exow can be referred to lovingly as Sasquatch. ??? ::) ::) :P Not to dwell and obsess but sometimes the term OW is just too flat for literary excellence. LOL. ;)
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Totally with you Sassy.
SKxxx
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Thanks Mamma, just spit my coffee on the screen. I am so using that name from now on!
Sasquatch . . . Love it. To bad I will never let on to H what it really means . . . hmm or perhaps I will as he does have a sense of humor!
You guys rock!
Sassy
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Sassy, that's why I gave you a pre-emptive..get ready...When I tell you "Get ready" That means swallow your coffee and stop chewing :P ::) ;D LOL!!
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Dang it Mamma, now I know better. Hmm going home for lunch might have to drop the new name a few times! LOL
Your sense of humor is PRICELESS. Humor really does get us through this crap at times!
Sassy
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Well I'm sorry Fu@king Idiot IS a term of endearment as far as I'm concerened and one of these days I'm going to let him know I called him that all last year, and I know he would approve. I am NOT a name caller but this situation has left me no options. When at a loss for words that don't seem to express what I think I'll stoop to namecalling.
He prides himself on being INTELLIGENT...was what he did INTELLIGENT??
And "Rancid C" about covers the exskank and your right MB exskank doesn't deserve to be referred to as a "she" or "her" or anything like that because it's an insult to decent women EVERYWHERE that our gender referance is even attached to them.
I am wounded to deeply and it may be fatal so if I engage in name calling and it makes me smile I need to do so. As for letting go?? I think it's a really long way off for me.
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yay ;D glad this thread is going along again. mamma i have spat a coffee out before and nearly choked reading one of your comments lol. ive learned from that now funny lady ;D
specialk ;D i so think this thread is going to keep you moving along girl. high 5 ;D
ow i dont hate her, i dont like her and i dont even know her. as long as the kids are comfy around her and she treats them well then thats good enough for me. i always tell my kids to look after eachother and know when push comes to shove they do ;D
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Ahhhh Mamma Bear thank you so much for accepting my comments as they were intended. I think you are hilarious as well, and very well adjusted. I was becoming afraid that it was beginning to "get" to you, so, "saw no risk and took the shot" hehehe. Trust me, I didn't like the OW either. I found her a wonderful distraction though when this first happened. She probably saved my husband's life, because I debated between killing him or her!!! :o Couldn't decide which one to do first, so didn't bother!
I do see and totally understand the benefit of directing our pain and agony towards the OP. It really does give us time to adjust and accept what this horrible situation is all about. By the way, I called the OW, Suey Sowey. She was an affair down, one year younger then me, (59soon) she has been married 3 or 4 times already, had lost a lot of weight, had a facelift, had her hair de-frizzed... she was quite a piece of work. She had a couple of quick affairs after h left her and has recently married a young man (fitness trainer) who is the same age as my youngest son 26. She has gained every pound back plus quite a few extra. She looks really "old". Husband literally shivers when he thinks of her. But man is he grateful for me... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Personally specialk, I don't think another person ever makes anybody happy. There are just too many things against the relationship working out. This new OW of your h's is sad, because she really doesn't have any knowledge of you. She probably has very little information regarding the mother of his son. Seems to me, like she sort of got "sucked" into the big hole of your partners crisis.
I am delighted Specialk to hear you sounding so much more positive about yourself. That is the secret to this. Growing strong and empowering yourself. What is learned from this, can benefit you the rest of your life, if you give it your all. You are worth the effort SpecialK, spare yourself no expense.
hugs Stayed
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Love it, maybe we should put a list together of all these names.
Thank you Stayed. I do feel better, more calm, relaxed and I'm smiling & laughing a lot more. It's like the blinkers are coming off and starting to see me in my true light (my Dad would be really proud of me :) ). I've know idea where this sudden shift has come from, but I'm loving it. I am aware that I could come down with a bump, but hey I've lived in this negative fog for way too long.
This may sound like a silly question, but could someone explain what an affair down is?
Thanks all, hugs
SKxxx
PS Only three weeks to go until Spring - new beginnings :D
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Special K, There's a great article in the articles section. Actually several. here's what I got: Someone who may not be a skank ho to begin with but through her actions during our Hs crisis (the infatuation hormones and stress chemicals and abandment fears) create an emotional storm of cycling and possessive behavior that blows up in their faces. Affair down could also be like my H hooking up with a poor woman who has nothing except problems and needs him to rescue her so he can feel all big and puffy and needed. ::) LOVED THE ARTICLES...ask a techno savvy person to drop them in here 8)
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Thanks MB - can anyone out there help me ;D
Stayed I meant to acknowledge this earlier:
Personally specialk, I don't think another person ever makes anybody happy. There are just too many things against the relationship working out. This new OW of your h's is sad, because she really doesn't have any knowledge of you. She probably has very little information regarding the mother of his son. Seems to me, like she sort of got "sucked" into the big hole of your partners crisis.
He did tell me she knows about his situation and she's fine with it. But obviously I don't know how much he's told her. I for one would not be happy if I'd meet someone who told me that his ex partner (who he absolutely no ties with) is living in his house, rent free and who pay all the bills, oh and I also give her money. Unless of course he wants her to think he's a superhero! Personally you woulnd't see me for dust - Forest Gump would have nothing on me!
SK xxxx
SKxxx
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MMMMMMMM that is interesting specialK. Still, just because he says it, doesn't make it true. My favourite MLC joke is:
Q- How can you tell your partner is lying?
A- His/her, lips are moving!
Sorry specialk, you may not think that is funny, but to the average LBSer, the one thing we all catch onto real quick... OUR SPOUSE LIE!
:( sad but true!
hugs Stayed
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SK on main page articles section on the left. Standing Actions. Go all the way down Affair Down Articles...Where's DGU ??? Snow Day ??? LOL!
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Stayed, joke is very true :D
It was me that asked him did she know about his situation which he replied, yes. I then asked what did she think, he answered 'she's fine about it'
He's lied to me in the past. When he came back in May 2009, it wasn't until end of September 2009 that he told me about Scary Bird. I asked why they didn't get back together (she was causing loads of grief at that time). He said they had tried, but it didn't work. He told me they got together Christmas of 2008, two months after BD. I accepted it. Fast forward to January 2011 and Scary Bird called me late one night. She told me all about their affair and that it had started in early September 2008 when I was at my Mum's in Spain. I didn't suspect anything. I trusted him - he was the one that always said he didn't believe in lies, not even 'little white lies'. I did find letters that she had written to him, express her love for him, that she coulldn't believe he felt the same way about her. She even tried to compete with me (I find that very sad). I found receipts of all the presents he bought her that Christmas, it felt like he was trying to create what he had with me. On reflection that's probably how he is.
I don't think Miss Wales is an 'affair down'. She's new, exciting and he's love with her. In all honestly she's welcome to him because I don't believe he's fun to be around right now, unless of coure he is completely different with her.
Thanks MB, I will look for it and have a good read.
Hugs SKxxxx
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SK,
You actually have no true idea what he is saying to OW...........they tell lies. My exH hooked up with his second OW on FB. She just happened to be an old High School classmate. I didn't realize he was MLC at the time so I made some BIG MISTAKES. I contacted her........told her I was his wife......which we were still married at the time. Well, the fact is.....he had lied to her. They had a big fight and she dumped him..........BUT.........he managed to lie his way back into her life within a day. Then she slammed blasted me with text messages telling me how pathetic I was and a liar. That she would NEVER get involved with a married man. Really?? I let her have it back and ended by telling her I'd see her in Court!! See, my exH had told her that I was the problem and the divorce was all but final except for a minor issue on my end. That was the furtherest from the truth as the divorce had only been filed by him and nothing more had progressed. I stayed on him about how horrible it was for him to be lying to her and dragging her into an affair without her knowledge. Anyway, that affair/OW lasted from March until May. It fell completely apart (like I knew it would)......oh, and we were still married at the time. So, my exH told me that HE ended it because "it wasn't working"..........he then told me she knew things weren't right and besides, he said, "I knew it was hurting you". Wow, really?? Go figure. All of this took place in 2010. Just wanted to give you something to think about.
(((HUGS)))
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SpecialK:
It's sad but true. They lie to us, the OW, themselves, their co-workers, kids, basically everyone. It sucks, especially when it goes so against their nature as we thought we knew it.
I asked my H similar questions and he said she knew everything, come to find out that was BS. They hook up with a person that is a mirror of who they are at that momement. So if they are screwed up you can imagine the OW is just as screwed up. They don't have a good relationship, they fight ALOT, they do and say things to each other that your H wouldn't normally do.
Heck, my H told Sasquatch everyday he was moving out, getting a divorce and would marry her. Well he moved out (for four days) but nothing else happened. He never came home and told me about her, nor asked for a divorce yet he told her he did every day. Oh yea, they embelish how bad their life is at home, even when you are being a lighthouse. (For example, H got a huge bruise on his back from moving Sasquatch 500 lb couch into his 4 day love nest. Well I found it on his back when he got in the shower with me one morning (remember he was moving out in a day or two but I was none the wiser) and touched it and asked him what happened (I remember joking asking if he got screwing in the woods (didn't know about affair then either) he laughted it off. Days later I find a picture of H with his shirt pulled up and a picture of the bruise. Yup Sasquatch took the pic and H made up this sob story of how I did it to him!!!! So not true, but like I said he wanted to be mommied and she wanted to do it so it was a perfect opportunity to throw her off the trail of his own insecurities about what he was doing to himself and his family.) They paint a very dim picture and want to be mommied (at least mine wanted that, although I doubt he would admit it.) They breakup multiple times. Think of your worst high school relationship, and multiple that sitch by 1000 and you get an affair down! Yet at the time, they think this person is perfect :).
H has since told me that he knew he was hurting me, he didn't care, he wanted both lives. They build this horrible fortress around their hearts and won't let us penetrate it. They are hooked up with OW for the sheer excitment, adrenaline, hormormones, etc. It isn't love, it never was. H has told me he would just say things to get what he wanted, just like a 17 year old boy would do to get what he wanted. They have sexual dysfunctions with them too even if they blamed them on us!
Plain and simple, they just lie and it sucks.
Hugs,
Sassy
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hormormones,
LOL Sassy - I guess this was a typo - but made me chuckle ;D
The MLC version ;D HOR- MOR- MONES Think you're onto something
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The MLC version HOR- MOR- MONES Think you're onto something
FUNNY!! REALLY FUNNY!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
HUGS Stayed
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Perhqps a Freudian slip. :P
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kikki ;D soooooooooooooo funny. made me giggle so much ;D ;D ;D
sk ;D lies lies and lies. dont believe anything. ive so learnt them words from my hubby through mlc mean nothing. while they are in replay we just have to let them be. at this point in time you dont know what he is telling ow and you. i can guarantee its not the same story. keep asking your questions though and im sure between us all we can help you grow stronger and stronger xxx ;D
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Hi All
It's snowing here - that's not allowed it's nearly Spring! Was hoping to get out in the garden today, but that's certainly stopped play. Have to do indoor stuff now. Will be watching Tottenham v Man U later with a beer :D
Just catching up on my thread, great insight to all of this maze :) Thinking back to first DB, I begged ex severanl times to tell me if there was any else. I text him to be totally honestly with me, was there someone else please don't make a fool of me. He text back the following day saying: 'No there is no-one else, only S. It's me that's being the fool' All the time he was seeing and sleeping with Scary Bird, telling her all the things she wanted to hear. He also told Scary Bird the reason he hadn't told me they were 'going out together' (that so makes me laugh, sounds like playground stuff), was because I would smash his house up! Yeh right, why on earth would I, it's my home and besides I would have to fix it and it would cost me too much! It's not in my nature to do stuff like that. Revenue is so not sweet. Lies have a way of being discovered in the end.
So Miss Wales, who knows? Does she get the best of him, the real him or someone that's putting on an act, who's kidding himself? The oly difference this time is that he was honest when I asked him if he meet someone special. What I do know is that I'm best out of it, focusing only on my own journey now and allowing myself to grow and become stronger. The seed has now been planted and I will grow into a strong, healthy, happy, vibrant flower - simply the best! ;D
I feel so much has changed in me in the last week, I've no idea why or where the shift has come from (and it's a big shift) but I'm loving it.
Second councelling session tomorrow.
Thanks all, hugs
SKxxx
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Wow specialK, you are sounding so much better. There is nothing I love more then to see an LBS find their way through this oh so very difficult time. It is so confusing, so directionless, in your heart you know they are making a HUGE mistake, but, alas, there is NOTHING you can do about his problems. They are his problems... this is his crisis, you must leave him to sort it out, as best he can.
But to take this opportunity and rebuild YOURSELF, to find who you want to be and then to become that individual, then that is true success. To not allow somebody elses crisis DESTROY you, that takes courage and determination. I am seeing so much growth in your Specialk, it is something wonderful to watch.
Please continue to post. hugs Stayed...
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SpecialK, I would say Miss Wales gets the best of the real current version of your husband: the MCLer version. ;D While his at that, you are getting stronger, fantastic and happier. :)
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That's what I'm starting to do Stayed, attaching from this mess and rebuilding myself. Thank for your words of encouragement.
AnneJ: Thank you for stopping by, your comments makes sense. I don't like the person he is now, so in that respect Miss Wales has done me a favour ;)
Hugs SKxxx
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Had my second councelling session yesterday, it went well. I feel I can really open to her which can only be a good thing. I think it also helps that I am more than ready to move on and let to. I want to put the past behind me instead keep dragging into the here and now :)
I was able to talk about my relationship with ex, digging deeper and also touched on my past relationships which will look at next week. I really don't have a very good track record as far as relationships are concerned, which is also something we will look at.
Another thing I have to learn to stop doing is telling my Mum everything. Her views change like the wind, sometimes she is a little bitter and negative. Last night she told me that Miss Wales will probably tell ex to buy me out. I appreciate she's my Mum and only wants the very best for me, but negative comments are not helpful.
Hugs SKxxx
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I read this on the depression in men site:
http://www.healthcentral.com/depression/c/4446/76346/depressed-men
Link was posted by Stillpraying on the Depression Thread.
Here's a section of a reply to one the letters:
Lastly, I wouldn't worry - although you obviously can't avoid it - about his being happy with someone else. He'll just be carrying the same problems to a different relationship, and that won't change a thing. He may want to imagine that a new person will make all the difference and feel great for a time. But the same issues will inevitably come out all over again
SK xxx
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Hi, I am new to this forum. I was wondering if the O/P sees the cycling and anger or are they seeing the 'real person' without mlc behavior? I can't imagine anyone would be willing to put up with such behavior. Especially since there is no history, children or long term commitment. Such a sad experience for the LBS, children and mlc person. Not to mention collateral damage of grandparents and extended family members.
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Good question, I am going to give you a example of just this.
My h was with ow at work when her husband suspect what was going on. They called me and begged me to tell lies to the husband and during this call I heard my h speak to the ow angrily swearing at her and demanding she give me her husbands telephone number. If anyone had every spoken to me like that I would have run a mile.
I just think that the OP wil accept anything because they are beyond needy.
Sd
X
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Hi, i 2nd that, from my own h incidental and from what i have heard from others is that ow/om will put up with anything and will keep taking the mlc er back because they are needy, insecure people themselves, that require looking after and will do anything for the mlc er to keep it thay way, including turning a blind eye to things. BUT eventually, they do catch on something is wrong. My h incidental actually fb me a message telling me she was ready to hear the truth about him now. I never answered, i just laughed and thought serves you right. She obviously knew something was wrong but she was so needy, she has taken him back for another go. Healthy relationship, NOT.
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That is a great question. I've been wondering too if OW is getting the lovely man I knew all these years while I had the dubious privilege of getting the scummy cheater and liar!
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Hi ladies!
I remember just that question floating in my head soon after BD Dagolark. I remember once saying to my Genius, "Great I got the no fun nasty jerk who all he ever wanted to do was work and you are giving the little girl the best part of you, having fun with her, exploring and partying." He was shocked. He said to me, "What the H*LL makes you think that is a good part of me?"
As to OW seeing the cycling-in my case YES! He gives her a bunch of the oh poor me, pity me, I'm just a poor brilliant doctor who the world abuses regularly, and I am the modern day John Lennon. She gets to see his anger too but then breaks down in crying and if bad enough goes home to her mom and dad or threatens suicide. Spin away darling Genius.
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In my sitch he couldn't hold the mask on past the infatuation high. I met OW1 and it sounded like she received the same treatment as I did even to the point of him cheating on her with OW2. He also started the relationship by feeding her lies about his marital status. (He lied to me about that when I met him and I found out the truth after he had left me)
They had many arguments and he also took her fears / weaknesses and taunted her with it such as folding a belt in half and making a loud slapping noise with it which she told him upset her as she was beaten by her father as a kid. Did he stop? No...just kept doing it to her. Much the same as with me.
He ended up shoving her up against the wall in anger and he also shoved me near the end. So even though he took her away for the weekend to the same town we went to just before he left and also bought her a more expensive bouquet of flowers than he ever did for me, when when the kids were born, she did get the same negative treatment.
I have no idea what he dishes out to OW2 but I feel they don't see each other as much and therefor the relationship just crawls along and doesn't burn out. At least the kids don't have to see her much which is really all I care about now.
Hugs,
SP
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I have directly asked my husband that question How did you treat "her" whbile I was getting all your crap, lies, complaints and anger? Did you treat her like your "special new queen"? . In hindsight, he has no clue why she tolerated some of his behaviour. He took her away for the weekend.. to a job site and she sat in a hotel room alone both days while he worked. That was thier 1st " love date". NEVER would i accept that. He was away alot and she would text " I miss you , can you come over" ( puek puek) He always told her no because he was working 2 hours away. He saw her when it was convenient for HIM. My husband told her 3 different times that " he needed to go home and fix his life and his marriage" . She just blocked that out I guess .. she continued to be at his beck and call. She told him she loved him several times and wanted to tell everyone they were a "couple". She was desperate .. no doubt. This is a women seperated from her own husband for 3 months after assaulting him and being convicted. NUT CASE. Shocking.. he was a NUTCASE too. When he told her he was done with her and was going to try to fix his marriage... she got all snotty and hung up on him crying. I will never understand. Likely he whisperred sweet nothings .. nothing he would tell me i am sure.
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I'm sorry to disagree but I don't think the OP sees the MLCer's true self for quite awhile.
They are usually fed lies and distortions. They are shown a decent man/woman who had a bad, horrible marriage and they believe and think they can save them...make them happy.
Most of the time they are victims too. Not all but some of them.
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Since the person in MLC is in MLC behaviour the OW/OM see the MLC behaviour. What they may do is atribute that behaviour to the things the MLCer tells them about their life. Like how horrible the marriage was, blah, blah, blah.
Both Mr J OW1 and OW2 had to deal with a totally drunk MLCer. He did not drink before MLC. They also had to deal with the crying man. However I doubt any of them had a clue why he was behaving that way.
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oh i know she sees it. she just thinks it's him being bipolar. so she calls him crazy. she also blames his drinking too. she blames it on everything and blames him. then she blames me. they are both insane.
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Hi. Really good point you make- I knew the ow 25 years ago when she was going through her first divorce ( now she has had three) - our son was six months old when she asked my husband for lifts to and from work - a eight week affair followed although both denied at time ( me like a fool believed them) my husband is going through mlc ( started a year ago) after contact on Facebook they started affair again four months ago - now he has moved in with her - but texts me he still loves me etc. when home to see boys he is an emotional mess and I have wondered how much she sees of all this or do I get bad and she get good ?
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My h - pre MLC was a very laid back person, kinda quiet and just goes with the flow! Now he monsters toward my kids since they r not accepting his new life and gf... at court when my attrny presented all this evidence about his treatment...the gf says....I can't believe any of this- he is so easy going!
So I don't think OP sees it in the beginning- especially when they still have their spouses and families in the picture - we r still the target
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I know my H lied to OW before BD...reading all their FB messages. In the communication, they were both on different wave links.
I know they are having issues now he is living with her...but he is still there. Has become a total loser, not working, not paying any bills, lost his friends...so she is picking it all up, just to keep him.
What a romance made in heaven! In fact, she wrote that pre-BD. Their meeting was a "match made in Heaven" (Puke emoticon please) Bet she doesn't think that now...but they are still together. ???
So in my sitch, she is not getting the wonderful man I fell in love with and married.
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bump for WIGB
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Thanks OP!
I have a few major questions that keep popping in my head. Maybe RCR has addressed some of them but I haven't come across the answers myself. Think these may be things many ponder. Answers to any by RCR, Stayed or others would be helpful.
1) Is there any understanding of why some MLCer's are in the fog so much that they leave for the OW/OM vs. the ones that who are "smart enough" or insightful enough to still be with the OW/OM and still stay home until they figured themselves out?
2) Why do some MLCers tell the spouse they are leaving for OW/OM, and others leave and say its for "space" and try to keep it secret from the spouse saying they are staying with a friend or family, like mine did?
3) Why would an MLCer, if they feel so pressured by the spouse, want to move right in with an OW/OM??? I think the majority do seem to move directly in with them, rather than get their own place.
Why not move into own place and continue the relationship with OW/OM so they can be free from the pressures of having to check in with someone??? Or get own place so they can continue to cake eat with spouse and OW/OM without having to admit they are together or raise much suspicion from the spouse?
OW/OM would continue to see them so they could still have the OW/OM relationship and freedom. To move directly from home with spouse and kids to another woman seems like frying pan into the fire.
4) I believe I have read on here that the affair is estimated to last an average of 2 years. Does this "clock" start at the beginning of the MLCer and OW/OM's relationship while still at home or start AFTER they move out? My H's has been 3 1/2 years. He was here for 3 yrs and has been living with her for 1/2 year. They have passed 2 years. Would 2 yr or so "the clock" start again from date of his move out?
In some sitches on here where the H/W returned, they also had A while at home for years, and moved out for 6 months and then returned. Maybe the time speeds up and it died in months since the relationship moved from fantasy to reality. Finances and other reality issues of a real relationship. Just wondering if RCR or anyone else, especially those reconnecting or reconciling with MLCer, has thoughts on this?
5) And despite being deep in the fog, how are some MLCer's clear enough to know that they don't want a D, so ask for a separation instead? From my estimation, most of them have D talk and don't file OR talks and do file for D. And seems very few are like mine, ones who may physically separate or talk about legal separation but not D.
I just learned 1 month ago that when H moved out, that he actually had moved in with OW. He had lied and said he was on his bachelor friend's couch. And he had left his coats, dress clothes, shoes and tools, etc... here for the entire 5 months he has been gone. Since finding out, like I believe RCR did at the end, I packed it all and put in the garage. Despite him saying he needed me to park on the street so he could pull in the garage spot to pack it up, he hasn't taken any of it. Boxes have been there now for 5 weeks. And he comes to see DD every week.
When being upset the last time he mentioned separation a week ago, I said that "if we are going to go through the process of doing an agreement, now that you are living with OW, why not go all the way and just do a divorce?" Yet, again now, days later, he still raises doing separation agreement again. Despite my "suggestion" that we do D.
So this is why I wonder what may make him different than most in not discussing a D or filing for D, despite living with OW. Maybe she is pressuring him for a D, and he thinks a separation will quiet her? It wasn't until after I drove to OW's, saw his car, and told him by phone that I now know the truth (that he lives there), that he has been raising separation agreement topic.
One month out of BD2....Feel like I'm starting all over again.
My current thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5543.50
Hard hard day. Thanks.
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good questions! can't wait to see some answers on them.
my h moved out and into an apartment ow got here, she is from out of state and quit her job to move here. she still has no job, h isn't making any money so her mom is paying their bills. lovely right. also all they have is a mattress on the floor (was an air mattress until two weeks ago), two lawn chairs, an old tv you have to punch to get working, a dvd player, and some dishes. they have lived there for three months. h has said the reason he hasn't bothered getting any furniture is because he doesn't feel like he will be with her long enough to need any. yet there he is. living the dream.
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WIGB,
I think several of those questions are addressed by RCR in her articles and blog posts. Maybe it would be a good idea to re-read them.
Nº 1 – Don’t think so apart from high energy MLCers tend to leave and wallowers tend to stay home even if there is OW/OM.
Nº 2 - It may be because some MLCers are more confident, or think the spouse will still take them back if they say up front they are living for OW/OM and others think that the space thing will make the LBS more willing to take them back. Mr J was the for space. I never believed him.
OW1 become public because I received an anonymous phone call telling she existed and she and Mr were going to meet in place X. When I asked Mr J why the mystification is answer was: because he were going to pretend we had meet at place X and things started there, after I had already left. I do not want to be the bad guy, I do not want people to know what I did.
I asked him if he thought I wasn’t capable of putting two and two together (I had been suspicious for months that there was someone else). He said, yes, you would, but I did not wanted you to be hurt or to think ill of me. And I don’t want other people to think ill of me. Me, so, you getting someone else weeks after you left was not going to hurt me? Mr J, It was but ti would be different.
Nº 3 – Because of the allure of the affair. Because of the illusion. Do not forget that early on OW/OM are nothing but smooth. Things change when they are living together, but many MLCers remain years on end with OW/OM. Usually because they already messed up their marriage, now better to try to make the mess work. Mr J never lived with OW1, he lived in a room in a mate’s flat and in a rented room in a flat full of university students. He also did not moved in straight away with OW2, but has been living with her for more than 5 years.
Nº 4 – The affair may last far more than 2 years. Take a look on the threads of us old timers and you will see that many of us have a spouse living with OW/OM for much more than two years. For me it starts when the affair started.
Nº 5 – Not sure if there are many MLCers who ask for a separation agreement. Usually the MLCer asks for divorce. Some LBS have asked for separation agreement in order to protect the finances. Maybe your MLCer needs something to show OW and a separation agreement is something.
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Thank you Anjae for your responses.
What you put in response to No. 2 about your H is my thoughts as to why my H wanted me to believe he was on his friend's couch, in addition to keeping the anchor.
No. 4: Unfortunately, since his OW is over 65 yrs old, I doubt she will be kicking him to the curb any time soon.
As for No. 5, I think it is that or that he is so bogged down with bills that he is trying to sort out his finances and what he needs to pay and what he doesn't. Wants me to take on house payments and agree in writing. I've been paying all on my own since April. But somehow this will bring him mental relief.
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Any known good links or posts regarding advice about having to deal with OW and the kids meeting them for the first time?
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Hi Willit,
If you click on my avatar it will enable you to read my posts over the years! I have posted plenty on kids and handling the OW - take a read and please post any specific questions you may have. It is such a huge topic.
((hugs))
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My H has been in a EA for about 8 or 9 months. Still haven't admitted it but I know it's going on. I don't know really if it was ever physical but I think not. I really think they both want me out of the picture first so neither of them look like adulterers.
She is 32 a student of his or was and they are doing a research project together not linked to a school now because she has left the state. However, she is coming back this month so they can work on this project together. I know very little about their relationship other than they have some sort of relationship and my BD came at the height of their relationship or my H infacuation of their relationship.
My H has never moved off divorce. He is adament about it. I know that is because of the EA. Now, he's wanting to do a medation and as of this week he keeps running around without his ring and a necklace I gave him on our wedding day. He has wore that for 30 years. I'm not sure why he's taking it off and why he keeps trying to get me to look that it's off. I just ignore it.
My journey has been with a H who has not shown any doubt and keeps moving this stuff forward. Yes, I started the procedings because I had to protect the financial stuff but I really feel like this EA coming to town has given him some sort of...I need to see something with this divorce song and dance.
I can't imagine that my H would want to move so quickly on this divorce if there wasn't for the EA. I thought from all accounts EA makes guys move?
My H brain is so fogged. He is doing all kinds of things against me that he clearly things is wise. I can hardly wait for the end of the month when she gets here because I won't see him. Now that he has quit his job and decided to only work our company I'm stressed just having him here. I really think it's time for him to move to another place for now so I can breathe. I don't think he is going to get to the place of rock bottom till he's out but having him out when she gets back doesn't seem to be the answer either. That probably needed to happen before she got back.
I wish I could see some waivering. Not what he wants me to see but something that would let me know that some love for me is in his heart. We still talk, he's sharing some of his day with me, he would go get something to eat with me but all that I feel is just binding his time. I feel like he is completely gone from me because of the EA.
Great Thread!
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I have read different opinions and experiences I've read about in other places...
I was just wondering if the affair(s) really not last past the replay stage?? :-\
Because supposedly they wake up and move to the next correctly- that's when they go into the depression stage ...so technically when you wake up you know what you have done and you kind of quit :-\ ..or is this just my rational normal thinking but in that crises nothing is normal.. ?? Or is this just my rational normal Thinking...does this apply to them too ?
Or are there sad cases that do not know how to quit the other person and just drag them along? Getting married and all that stuff .. :o
Or do they just get married in the replay stage and then realize what they have done ..
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Simple rule is usually if their is another person anywhere around they are still in REPLAY or ESCAPE and Avoid.
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Simple rule is usually if their is another person anywhere around they are still in REPLAY or ESCAPE and Avoid.
So do you figure usually does not stay in their life past that stage is that correct ?
Because I read another article that when they had entered "liminality" ( The stage after separation which includes escape and avoid )- that usually they do not drag The affair into that stage..
however if they do , then it could be that they will end up marrying the person because they see no other option of getting rid of them or maybe are into deep into a commitment ..??
Or They don't know how to get rid of them ..
Or even saying I don't want to be alone I rather have them before I have no one ..?
Is that anybody's experience ?
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Short answer: yes.
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Short answer: yes.
[/quote
:o... :-\.. So they do sometimes? Get dragged along I mean..
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Sadly yes, these are all potentials.
While we're all dealing with MLC, each person is an individual and their response and handling of it towards the end of their crisis will be as individual as each one of us is.
Just as it is up to each LBS whether the door will even be open to their MLCer.
Tends to depend on the longevity and amount of destruction the MLCer manages to create.
But we hear stories of people getting back together after enormously long periods of time, such as 14 years. Anything is a possibility and depends on the two people involved.
But rest assured, if a MLCer chooses to say with the OW/OM, then that relationship will most likely be one of extreme dysfunction, immaturity and selfishness.
If they don't come out the other side of this thing, then sadly, they will be difficult for us to have back in our lives anyway.
If they do, and we are willing to try to reconcile, then great. But that's no walk in the part according to those that have reconciled either.
We just don't know, which is why all we can do is pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and live the best lives that we can without them. Whether they can catch up to us, time will tell.
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Sadly yes, these are all potentials.
While we're all dealing with MLC, each person is an individual and their response and handling of it towards the end of their crisis will be as individual as each one of us is.
Just as it is up to each LBS whether the door will even be open to their MLCer.
Tends to depend on the longevity and amount of destruction the MLCer manages to create.
But we hear stories of people getting back together after enormously long periods of time, such as 14 years. Anything is a possibility and depends on the two people involved.
But rest assured, if a MLCer chooses to say with the OW/OM, then that relationship will most likely be one of extreme dysfunction, immaturity and selfishness.
If they don't come out the other side of this thing, then sadly, they will be difficult for us to have back in our lives anyway.
If they do, and we are willing to try to reconcile, then great. But that's no walk in the part according to those that have reconciled either.
We just don't know, which is why all we can do is pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and live the best lives that we can without them. Whether they can catch up to us, time will tell.
I agree on that one.. I just had him pick up the kids and he was fine around me wearing the wedding band (however not mine it's something new for the last three months and I think there's a different meening with the other woman involved like they already feeling like married) .. Because usually when he comes along to my house he doesn't wear a ring at all . In fact every time I ask him in the past where my wedding band is the one from us he says he doesn't know where it is he lost it ..
that's why I'm wondering if he already at this point didn't already make a commitment ??which I know means nothing -because that's just a stage she's in and come a year or two it will be totally different or maybe not ..
I agree however on one thing :that a relationship like this will never survive.
it's just built out of misery and deceit and lies and unhappiness for the other person that was left so suddenly ...that there is no way something like this can ever be happy or successful in the long..
in my case my Inlaw family all of them are very supportive of me and I know that they will never except her in their life anyways! so sooner or later he will realize that this woman is never welcomed but again he's a teenager right now that doesn't see anything ..
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a relationship like this will never survive.
it's just built out of misery and deceit and lies and unhappiness for the other person that was left so suddenly ...that there is no way something like this can ever be happy or successful in the long..
Absolutely true.
Glad to hear your in-laws are supportive, that is more often not the case.
At around the two year mark I noticed my MLCer wearing a ring, but not on his ring finger.
When he saw me looking at it, he got very agitated and after a few minutes he took it off and slipped it into his pocket.
After that, I noticed a chain around his neck and rings hanging from them - he was never a necklace wearer pre-crisis. He keeps them tucked inside his shirts, so the rings can't be seen, but must be enough to placate the OW.
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a relationship like this will never survive.
it's just built out of misery and deceit and lies and unhappiness for the other person that was left so suddenly ...that there is no way something like this can ever be happy or successful in the long..
Absolutely true.
Glad to hear your in-laws are supportive, that is more often not the case.
At around the two year mark I noticed my MLCer wearing a ring, but not on his ring finger.
When he saw me looking at it, he got very agitated and after a few minutes he took it off and slipped it into his pocket.
After that, I noticed a chain around his neck and rings hanging from them - he was never a necklace wearer pre-crisis. He keeps them tucked inside his shirts, so the rings can't be seen, but must be enough to placate the OW.
Oh no he got that ring about a week after he got home from his latest deployment in Germany and he ordered it and he said "there's a ring coming I ordered it for my collection" ( he collected World War II stuff - yet that ring has like Irish stuff on it )..
so when it came in the mail he put it on right away and he said "I like this better than the wedding band".. I said that it doesn't have any history with me and I would rather him telling me that he wanted that so I would've bought it for him so again it would've had some history for both of us and it would've been a gift ...
Anyways he just wore that ring from then on and after we moved 3 weeks later, all of a sudden my original wedding band was lost and he starts wearing that one ...but on the other hand that he would've worn it for me ..(he always wore his wedding band on the right ring finger as Europeans do and I wore my wedding band on the left hand as Americans do... But all of the sudden he wears his wedding band on the left side instead on the right side ..- so I know this has nothing to do with me ..)
And sometimes he doesn't wear it at all and he says it does feel like being married and then all of a sudden he wears it again ?!? Yet like I said it is not my ring ... Very strange
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So please move me if this question already exists ..
if your midlife crises spouse says that they "love the other person" :
what kind of love is it ??
1)is it the same love that if they had with you at the very beginning or is it an altered state of love and they perceive it as love but it's not ..
2)Can it be really deep love ( or that I just think it is but it's not )??
3) Can it become real love ?
and if it's not how can you kind of describe it ..? Or explain..
The way that I understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong , is that it is a love made out of a need and out of perception and infatuation .. Somebody else (OW/OM) fills a need and he/she thinks he's in love ..
Is that correct or is there more to it ? :-\
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ArmySpouse, I can only answer based on what my H said to me. We are reconciled and honestly have not talked too much about his love for OW2. I have not idea what he "felt" for OW1 as I was unaware of her, unaware of his crisis until OW2 was in the picture. All I know about OW1 was he ended it as he thought it was about to become a PA rather than the EA that it was.
While he was with OW2, he actually said to me, I LOVE HER, she is the person that I want to talk with and be with....
but after the tunnel, after he came through he said, I NEVER LOVED HER. So to me that said that he was merely infatuated with her and with the idea of her and a life with her. I do not feel he loved her, it was more of an addiction to her.
Not sure if that helps....
31andcounting
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Ditto 31 ! Your husband project own anima in that OW2, so he idealized her when he were in FOG, after he go out from MLC FOG and projection go away and reality kicks in.
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I'm not sure this will help you, Army, but here's my experience.
At BD, I got "this love there but it's not enough", whatever that means.
He told me he was in love with her, me probably because his MO was to make him leave the hose and he was too cowardly to do it himself.
On Friday, I watched him reacting to OW at his mothers funeral. Part of him was embarrassed to have her there, I suspect (but don't know) because he did not reach out to touch her a single time; rather, she touched him. Why was he embarrassed? Well, having both your wife and your girlfriend at your Mom's funeral is likely a rather uncomfortable situation...
Typically the OP is a symptom. The way I came to understand this was remembering long, long ago how I felt about my first boyfriend. Yes, I loved him (at the ripe age of 15), but now that I'm a wee bit older, I see that was really just infatuation and that he was filling a need I had. This is where I remember the man I'm married to feels the love he has (had?) for me isn't enough. It isn't because he no longer loves himself and he needs OW (and her fat butt) to act as a band-aid and distract him from whatever his real problems are.
Can the love change? I believe it can. But for me, it doesn't matter, anymore. He feels how he feels and, really, its none of my business.
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ArmySpouse, I can only answer based on what my H said to me. We are reconciled and honestly have not talked too much about his love for OW2. I have not idea what he "felt" for OW1 as I was unaware of her, unaware of his crisis until OW2 was in the picture. All I know about OW1 was he ended it as he thought it was about to become a PA rather than the EA that it was.
While he was with OW2, he actually said to me, I LOVE HER, she is the person that I want to talk with and be with....
but after the tunnel, after he came through he said, I NEVER LOVED HER. So to me that said that he was merely infatuated with her and with the idea of her and a life with her. I do not feel he loved her, it was more of an addiction to her.
Not sure if that helps....
31andcounting
You actually helping me a lot because mine started out with a emotional thing and I think a has become physical I thought course I have no proof but I would be very surprised if it would've not. But the signs are there and his behavior shows too.
so it was just the fantasyland :)at the fog provided and and all of that stuff around with her so that I'm also wondering why that takes a long to realize is just fantasies .. :-\
usually infatuation wears off after six months but a lot of them have affairs for as long as two years ! ::)
He's convinced he has a life with her and plans his military retirement and in about six years with her and of course he would never admit it! I overheard a phone conversation ,he's planning for the future children... mind you he is fixed since last year thank God !!
when I told him if he told her- he said "yes and I already looked into getting it reversed" ::) :o.. As if it was that easy ..
Ditto 31 ! Your husband project own anima in that OW2, so he idealized her when he were in FOG, after he go out from MLC FOG and projection go away and reality kicks in.
But I thought I read somewhere that even if they wake up sometimes they are so deep in and feel obligated... :-\ that they will drag the affair along into the next stage and worst-case Marry that person because they think they have made a commitment and do not know anymore ,how to get away and when They have lost ready everything so I have to make this work.. .. ???
I'm not sure this will help you, Army, but here's my experience.
At BD, I got "this love there but it's not enough", whatever that means.
He told me he was in love with her, me probably because his MO was to make him leave the hose and he was too cowardly to do it himself.
On Friday, I watched him reacting to OW at his mothers funeral. Part of him was embarrassed to have her there, I suspect (but don't know) because he did not reach out to touch her a single time; rather, she touched him. Why was he embarrassed? Well, having both your wife and your girlfriend at your Mom's funeral is likely a rather uncomfortable situation...
Typically the OP is a symptom. The way I came to understand this was remembering long, long ago how I felt about my first boyfriend. Yes, I loved him (at the ripe age of 15), but now that I'm a wee bit older, I see that was really just infatuation and that he was filling a need I had. This is where I remember the man I'm married to feels the love he has (had?) for me isn't enough. It isn't because he no longer loves himself and he needs OW (and her fat butt) to act as a band-aid and distract him from whatever his real problems are.
Can the love change? I believe it can. But for me, it doesn't matter, anymore. He feels how he feels and, really, its none of my business.
Lol at the fat butt comment... I always say that she has small titties
Maybe he was embarrassed by the situation is and maybe start to wake up and sees what kind of BS he's doing right there and what people are thinking? If you was clearly not happy but of course he would never admit that he would say to you he's very happy same like all would...
Anyways.
Yes I know it is just a symptom and he will (hopefully not for him) but some of them run through a lot of symptoms before they wake up I just hope you will not become a male ow until he figures that whole thing out .. However I think he will be in at least for another year..
Same like it seems to him that I am the bad one and the answer to all the bad feeling and as soon as he gets rid of me he would feel better.. but he will soon see this is not the case either ..and this is a big mistake as well just like the other person and.
So here's the next question:
If the midlife crisis person just projects himself or his needs or whatever he's looking for into her and is infatuated has his "knight in shining armor" syndrome filled- and all the other stuff that he needs; what about the other person? can the other person be really be in love with that midlife crises spouse?
Because our spouses are exactly opposite to what they usually are, right ...
so are their attractions and everything else ..so they would never normally look at a person like this in real life again if they are normal ..however those other people are broken and have some kind of behavioral disorders or other crap going on ..
so do they on the other hand really love my spouse? :-X
( for all these are their needs just filled as well? And I Am wondering how the other person feels after the midlife crisis person dumps them, when they grew and go the next step into their development... if for them that was a real relationship or is it just a filled need as well...?)
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what about the other person? can the other person be really be in love with that midlife crises spouse?
This is too subjective to answer in generalities. The OP may believe they are in love; however they are invariably broken for their own reasons and love may mean a whole host of things to them. For some - love means taking what they get from the MLCer because they never received this level of attention from anyone else. RCR points out that some OW/OM are often possibly in MLC themselves.
RCR writes a really good article on Love and Infatuation. Read that and perhaps it will help.
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That woman he is dealing with is certainly not in MLC as she is 28 years old .. :-\
My husband is 37 ..
however as far as I know (and I've done some research on her in the early stages), she was brought up by her mom only , is a single child and I think her father abandoned her or is not in her life right now either .. ..so I think she also has a father complex that my husband of course now totally fills.. besides they are having to same career ! So she feels validated through him ..
I have overheard a phone conversation where he had to build her up and acknowledge and encourage her so my perspective is she has a histrionic disorder possibly ..
It also makes sense when it comes to her having two interviews in the local newspaper, being involved with the Jewish community (as some spokes person or something like that) and also her being converted from a Christian to a Jew ...(because of some stuff she has seen as a kid someone teasing some Jewish kid and she didn't like it and because of her uncle that was Jewish) and then the other thing was for her to join the army ..
I have to explain that:
In Germany Girls usually do not join the army and Germany is not as patriotic towards the military service as America ..and that for it is kind of weird.
.I wouldnt say its "frowned up upon " to join the army due to our history maybe ..but it is just weird if somebody joins the army especially for a woman ..so that is all attention seeking flags for me ..
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Personally, I don't care how OP feels. Her, her fat butt and her bit boobs don't mean anything to me. If she gets hurt because her boyfriend dumps her, she should have been prepared. These sorts of things sometimes happen when you get involved with a married man.
Just sayin'.
Can they really be in love with a person in MLC? I think so--as much as a broken, possibly narcissistic individual can be in love with someone else. Remember, Army, they never knew the people we knew. They know the broken shell of a human being, and one of the purposes of the OP is to prop up the MLCer and convince him he's worthy.
The OP has his/her own agenda, and as S&D said, it's very subjective.
I've wondered since BD if OW is also MLC. She's the right age, and considering what I witnessed, it's very possible.
Attention seeking is something the OP does. Again I witnessed OW do this at MILs funeral. It was revolting. She has a history of it through their relationship. She ups the ante when she feels threatened.
Read the article. It's very helpful. All you really need to know about her is that she's willing to have an affair with a married man. Any woman willing to do that has issues. Where they come from is irrelevant.
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With mine , l can only say from the outside and just in knowing how things appear bc l will never talk to w about that.
But it's def' effected her differently to when we were in love.
We had the ultimate in love , we were as high as a kite 24/7 just being around each other . And w just beamed her bubbly happy laid back personality.
She has never beamed that with him but bc it was under these circumstances and the stresses and emotions it must have been in leaving us and starting over like this well , maybe it's all that ldk.
But she isn't that person now or has been right through all this . she's strung out, moody, changes like the weather and just lately l notice that empty look in her, people often talk about with theirs.
So even if it is genuine in love with om , it sure isn't bringing out the best in her or the girl l knew.
She was in a pretty bad emotional state at bd and had been for a yr or 2 and going through a lot of stuff she hid from me. ; And l do know she felt he helped all that somehow at the time , but with the stuff above l was saying , l just can't see how it can be all good these days.
Still , she could turn round and tell me they're getting married tomorrow , who knows , nothing would surprise me tbh.
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With J, his OW married three other men (separate times) each time they split up. Once within 2 weeks of them splitting. Each time she got married she cheated on her husband with J numerous times. She still would. He just got bored with the game after awhile. It is the addiction issue. She is addicted to him while he is no longer addicted to her. He told me at first that she was fun and free. Later as he got healthier, he told me that he always knew she would be gone when the money was gone. Now that he is back on his feet, she is back to messaging him again. She is currently on her 6th husband. He bought her a house and a car and also pays all the bills. Still it is not enough. Everything is about what she can get out of the relationship.
With my ex, he never claimed to be in love with the little girl. Instead he said to others that she made him feel something, that she would never leave him, that she made him feel almost alive again. He told me the young kids he was running around with had such hope for the future and big dreams that he was scared to lose that. He said he felt such respect and admiration when he was around them that he didn't know if he could live without it. I asked him what they have in common and he replied, They are so full of life, full of happiness and hope for he future. For the most part he did not differentiate her from the other 20 something's he was with.
I still remember a message she sent him begging him to let her stay with him and that she didn't know if she would continue to exist that far away from him. His reply was to leave her alone in Russia for 4 extra days, a country that she did not know the language or customs, to come home early simply because he did not want to spend an additional $47 to fly back on the same day as she did. True love?
Once my ex and I were talking. I told him the little matters zero to me, she is no threat to me and of zero interest to me. He spit and sputtered for a minute and finally said, "well she must matter to someone a bit because she is a person." True love?
Best LP
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LP, what great stuff! True love, indeed!
Would he have spent $23.50, do you think? ;)
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Personally, I don't care how OP feels. Her, her fat butt and her bit boobs don't mean anything to me. If she gets hurt because her boyfriend dumps her, she should have been prepared. These sorts of things sometimes happen when you get involved with a married man.
Just sayin'.
Can they really be in love with a person in MLC? I think so--as much as a broken, possibly narcissistic individual can be in love with someone else. Remember, Army, they never knew the people we knew. They know the broken shell of a human being, and one of the purposes of the OP is to prop up the MLCer and convince him he's worthy.
The OP has his/her own agenda, and as S&D said, it's very subjective.
I've wondered since BD if OW is also MLC. She's the right age, and considering what I witnessed, it's very possible.
Attention seeking is something the OP does. Again I witnessed OW do this at MILs funeral. It was revolting. She has a history of it through their relationship. She ups the ante when she feels threatened.
Read the article. It's very helpful. All you really need to know about her is that she's willing to have an affair with a married man. Any woman willing to do that has issues. Where they come from is irrelevant.
To say that I care about her it would be definitely too much and I'm not thinking about her the way I used to in the beginning of course when you just don't understand how another woman with this do this to another woman .. Especially when she clearly saw that there were small children involved .
I mean for me it is always that if somebody comes around and tells you he separated from his wife -why would you believe all that he says and starting something with them without the respect for the other person ? and say you know what buddy unless you are divorced and you can show me and you heal yourself I'm sorry I want nothing to do with you ... Why is that so hard I mean why .?
So since reading a lot I have to come brother sympathetic to her because I know she's even more broken than my husband ... I cannot forgive her yet I am not at that point but I know at one point in my life I have to do that too ... But I agree 100% and I came to the same conclusion that she doesn't know the real person that he is but the broken one and if somebody wants to be with somebody in such a horrible state of mind then good luck with that I don't understand how anybody wants to put up with anybody like that.. But of course he tells her lies to just the same as he does to me so I'm not surprised that she gets a whole different story than reality really is but she does not want to know rheology either otherwise she would see how firetrucked up this whole situation is and how a shame she should be off herself.
But of course he tells her lies to just the same as he does to me ,so I'm not surprised that she gets a whole different story than reality ...but she does not want to know reality either ! otherwise she would seen how firetrucked up this whole situation is and how a shame she should be of herself . And how sick it is to start something with a married man in any circumstances ..
But again I went away from the circle in my head a while ago so I just needed to vent because I see that she is truly a tool .. ;D
So I guess in her way she really loves him, because she thinks he just broken As she is but when truly he's is just a temporary state and. So she thinks that they match .
Ask for her agenda I agree with that hundred percent, because my husband is promotable in rank and he is already higher in rank then she is ..
I think if he would've been just a lower rank this might've not even gone that far .. he impressed her with his stories and what he has been already in his career and I think part of it is also a jumping forward for her or so she thinks ..
And then of course he wants to be admired for this right now so they match perfectly .. ???
I can see that as soon as something happens with his career she's might dump him totally .. I don't want to say that of course she was not not attracted to him but I think his job and his position made a big deal and or a game changer as well.
In the very beginning I actually asked him and said "don't you think that she might just use you for your rank" and he said " yes maybe... But honestly I don't really give a $h!te ..." ::)
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l've asked myself 100 times and pointed it out to w at bd , deaf ears of course but what sort of man would hook up with a women in wifes state at the time? Or watch her destroy a family a marriage, an 11yr old girls family?
l mean there is no way l'd wanna take that ride or responsibility.
This guy looks 40s or early 50s but very old man looking and he ain't no prince either. looks like one of these ones that still lives with his mother or something. Never been married, l'd be surprised if he's ever even had a serious relationship. He seemed totally oblivious to, to a lot of the huge issues in hanging round with a women who's just done all that and everything involved.
l've thought if he hasn't had a serious relationship at that age, then this ain't gonna gel with him as time goes on. lt could even be why they seem so on offish and her moods .
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l've asked myself 100 times and pointed it out to w at bd , deaf ears of course but what sort of man would hook up with a women in wifes state at the time ?
Watch her destroy her family and marriage, an 11yr old girls family?
That would be the man I'm still married to. ;)
OW was married and had a 12-year-old-daughter at BD.
They just don't care. They want what they want and anyone else is collateral damage because of the narcissism that emerges. And of course, as we all know, they don't want to hear anyone else's perspective because, as mine once told me, "it isn't like that".
Yeah. Right.
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Exactly, my H went for a married (20years younger) woman with 2 toddlers and a newborn baby!!! H was even "friends" with her H.
She happened to decide she was miserable in her marriage ?????? I watched her baby bump grow , deliver and celebrate a 1st birthday!!
People that get involved like that are not thinking right???? Something is off with both of them. And if the OP happens to have never known the MLCer, then what they are being told is all lies. Make believe, it is all a make believe fantasy!!
31andcounting
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Once again, l still can't wrap my head around some of this stuff. lt's beyond me how anyone could mess families like this.
With mine l had a lot of trouble figuring out who to blame most.
l mean if our own h or w goes and throws themselves at somebody in the first place!
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When the First BD with the exow and the divorce happened.
He was pushing for the D's to meet her.
My youngest replied " Sure..I'd like to meet her so I can kick her ass for her"
To which the ex replied " Awww it isn't all her fault"
For me the blame rest squarely on the cheating spouse. If they don't have enough character to resist whatever it is they think these OP have or can offer. To the point that they destroy their own families.
Who needs them?
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yes In It , that is important. My H as he was exiting the tunnel, before I new "this" was real sent me a long poem about integrity. I honestly thought???
But what I now know was, he was showing me he was trying to become a man with integrity again and also knew that he had not been.
Of course I now have hindsight and that helps me understand "a little bit".
Hawk , when a W or H does this, they are not okay, something is wrong. The fact that you can't believe or understand "how" they could says to me "that you are okay and you are thinking right" I know that kind of sounds simple, but I think it kind of is that simple..........
31
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Sorry 31andcounting integrity?? That made me laugh out loud. Most of these MLcer's might want to look the meaning of that word up in the dictionary.
And anyone who thinks this kind of behavior that leads to the destruction of families is healthy or normal needs their heads examined. I guess their family members find it totally acceptable.
It isn't up to us to understand them. It's up to us to understand ourselves.
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Interesting to read along. I know we are not supposed to dwell on the R with OW but for most of us here it really is the part of this that hurts the most.
My children were 2 and 7 at BD and my H went off with a 23 year old employee. They basically run his company now and are inseparable (I'm over three years BD) so I am not sure how that will ever change. I know all affairs are affair downs but my Hs ow is highly educated, attractive and, seemingly, full of positivity and joie de vivre. I relate to LawProfessor when she explains what her H said about hanging out with 20 somethings, they are such fun and positive (naive and annoying). I think that is what my H thinks too.
But, I like how RCR put it earlier on:
Then there are those poor naïve girls who have not yet grown up—early 20s—and who think this is how relationships start. They may become involved with someone in a position of power over them or maybe a co-worker, but they really are simply ignorant and before they know it they’ve been trapped by the hormones. Yes, they agreed to a sexual relationship—or encounter—with someone who was married and they may have tried to avoid it and fallen in to the sin. They may have felt shame and guilt for their actions, but once the hormones get involved the alienator loses control and becomes like the other, older more mature women who are Affairs Down. One the hormones take over, the young and naïve alienator may begin to behave like the older Affairs Down; they will display attributes of Personality Disorders. But that does not mean these younger alienators are as messed up as their older counterparts or that they actually have Personality Disorders. We all have situations in which we react with negative attributes, possessive in-fatuation has a tendency to bring out the worst when the recipient resists or has a spouse or others in the circle of influence who are resistant.
Looking at this quote from RCR how do we know if there is possessive infatuation going on? I kind of hope there is but I don't know? Is the fact that we are just here getting on with looking after the kids etc. enough to cause them to feel uncomfortable? I'm not sure?
My H and ow don't see their R as sinful or wrong in any way, as far as my H is concerned he finally got rid of me, the harridan who was unbearable to live with and who held him back in every conceivable way. They both think that I am the unreasonable one.
I laughed at RCRs fantasies for ow revenge ... mine is quite simple, I just want her, and indeed everyone my H has told, to know the truth. That I am not the person my H makes me out to be and that our R was not the horror he has told her it was. The truth will out, I'm sure.
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There are very mature 20-year-olds, but relatively rare. And when a man is in MLC, giving the woman MLC $h!te, all hell will break lose (see blackice's OW for example). So the MLCer will in the end, play a huge part in the unravelling of the relationship with the OW.
And I understand the pain of being maligned. I told mine to stop bad-mouthing me to others and to move on like he means it.
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Looking at this quote from RCR how do we know if there is possessive infatuation going on?
I can tell you exactly how.... My H took OW to an event that would have been a special one for us. He was performing with two other old friends and OW accompanied him. One of those friends told me afterwards (and it was the first time he had met her) that she sat staring at H when he was having a conversation with my friend. She then muscled in between them and physically took hold of him and completely blanked my friend out. His words were - possessive, manipulative, poor social skills and clearly obsessed with H and wanted to make a point that they were an item to all who were there. H didn't show that this bothered him but he did not engage with OW when he was talking to his friend. (H has known this friend for over 30 years). However my friend said that H is most definitely a shadow of his former self and meekly accepted her controlling behaviour.
That is an example of possessive infatuation.
I also know OW - I directed her and H in a show and it was in the quiet moments of rehearsal that their R started - right under my nose.
I know all affairs are affair downs but my Hs ow is highly educated, attractive and, seemingly, full of positivity and joie de vivre. I
Yes and so in my Hs OW. It is not what they are academically or "socially" it is what they become through the affair that makes it an affair down. OW for me seemed to be so well liked by everyone in rehearsal - I couldn't understand why. I didn't take to her at all and had great reservations about her. She was aware of these reservations and that is probably one reason why she targeted H.
OW was married and in 2012 had adopted a girl (young teenager) and once asked me (before I knew anything about the affair) "how do you deal with girls?"
I gave some general answer - OW's reply " I wish we'd never adopted her"
I beat a hasty retreat. I now realise that H was becoming sucked in when he defended her comment. At that time I put it down to the fact that he has always "seen" where people are coming from and that he has always criticised me for being a little too hard on people - so perhaps I had it wrong and was making assumptions about her.
Interesting - in just writing this post I now realise that H has always demonstrated this " sympathetic approach" as he has believed it is part of his charm. I have just had another "PING!" moment go off in my head!!! ;) ;)
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There are very mature 20-year-olds, but relatively rare. And when a man is in MLC, giving the woman MLC $hit, all hell will break lose (see blackice's OW for example). So the MLCer will in the end, play a huge part in the unravelling of the relationship with the OW.
When I met ow I thought she was 18, she reminded me of my teenage self! I felt motherly towards her, H said she wanted to camp near us when we were planning to go to a festival, she had never been to one before! I said, "sure that would be great, she can hang with me and the kids!" WTF???? He also said to me "she's just very young." Wow, I just remembered those.
As long as the money and success keeps flowing all is well, it's just when things change that things get stressful for them. I will check out Blackice's thread, thank you.
songanddance your Hs ow sounds awful! What a thing to say "I wish I had never adopted her" WOah! And her possessiveness is creepy, did it feel quite good to hear that information though? I get snippets of info but not much. I hear my Hs ow is anorexic. His BF told me he thinks he upset her recently because she was going on about how unreasonable I have been re: the divorce settlement (I settled for less than I could just to get it over and done with) and my Hs BF said "well you have to look at it from TTs point of view" ... she was offended by that apparently. I guess that is a sign that all is not great. I know my H hangs around with people he has met since he left me, people who believe his story blindly, my pal said that people who know me will know that there is two sides to any story and possibly question things. Still hoping the truth will out.
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Then again:
I was a relationship virgin when I met my MLCer and was extremely jealous and possessive. I did the no looking at other women/no connecting with exes/ punish him for any perceived transgressions thingy etc. 10 years later, I do not look at his emails/check his hp, or even ask him where he goes or whom he meets, unless we already have plans or I'm cooking dinner and there are any last minute changes. He tells me about the $hit that he surfs and I'm like okay you are old enough to know what you're doing. When his head rotates 180 degrees to look at some young chick walking by, I just make a remark to let him know I noticed it and then leave it at that.
What I am trying to say is, a person can change over time/as the relationship progresses. The OW might be able to take his $hit for however long he needs to travel through the tunnel, and as he comes out of his crisis, she might have matured into a different person. Therefore, do not hold your breath or obsess over their relationship. There are just too many factors beyond our control. Focus instead on you and what you want to achieve in life that is within your control. I don't know about you but I want a husband who returns because he loves me, and not because the ow was not the greener pasture he expected.
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songanddance your Hs ow sounds awful! What a thing to say "I wish I had never adopted her" WOah! And her possessiveness is creepy, did it feel quite good to hear that information though?
Yes it did because it validated what I already believed.
OW wrote me a letter three weeks after BD. If ever anyone was in doubt about OW - read the summary of this letter which I posted on my 4th thread.
“Dear S&D
I realise that a lot has been said and written (meaning she has read H’s BD letter to me)
And I felt that it was time that I should write things from my perspective. You are under no obligation to read it but I wanted…. to cover the points in a rational manner and in a way that you could digest them at a pace you are happy with.
I would first of all like to say that I never set out to have any feelings for H ….but I am unable to ignore the force that has put us together and forged a union that has taken me completely by surprise.
I did not set out to hurt anybody and have not asked anything of H that he has not willingly given… I will support him in the situation that he needs to be in to be able to be at peace with himself whether that is with me or you………(long info about her finance and current H and her medical issues…)
……Family is one of the most important things to me and I am always the one to provide, my H and I agreed early on that we would not stay together for the sake of the children and I believe that you should stay in a marriage because you want to be with the other person…….you have to be someone that the other person wants to be with… it is not an automatic right because you have made vows…
I have always been quite private and found attention difficult……. In your H I have found someone where I am completely able to be myself…. He brings out the best in me and we are very positive together….. As much as it hurts me for my family to be broken like this…..
(she then expands on how “private” she is….and how she is leaving her H because he doesn’t want to join her “journey” of self discovery)
He is aware that his decision is a major flaw…. As much as he may wish to be he is not the right companion for me at this stage…I very much hope that I can continue my journey with H(mine)
I do not want you to think that I have taken these steps lightly or without a lot of soul searching… It is inevitable that people will be hurt but is it right (now paraphrasing because her sentence is far too long) for l one to sacrifice his (ie my H) happiness simply out of duty – it is very selfish of the other (ie ME S&D) to expect that.
If you would like to meet to discuss this then I am happy to do so.. I’m sorry if you feel that I have intruded but I am …. A helpful person and care deeply for others often to my own detriment.
I do not ask anything for me…..but I do ask this for H as it is tearing him apart and I will support him with whatever he needs.
Enough said about affair down.
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S&D, thanks for posting that, one word comes to mind ... DELUSIONAL ... she sounds like a whiny, teenage midlife crisiser! Well that has helped me, it shows how immature the ow is, it sort of sounds like the kind of things my H said at BD "just because we are married doesn't mean I have to stay with you and be unhappy." So, take this letter and contrast with a possessive, controlling woman who doesn't like to see her man talking to his friend of 30 years! What a load of rubbish.
I have always suspected that my Hs ow is whispering in my Hs ear, making me out to be even worse than even he says I am (Hs BF telling me that she was banging on about how unreasonable I have been suggests this don't you think?). This is what I sense from this letter you received. How old was she when she wrote this? She sounds so young and annoying, she thinks she sounds rational and heartfelt but she sounds like a naive girl idealising love ... love and Rs are brutal, they take work and commitment, they swoop between highs and lows. Our MLCers regressed back to that teen attitude that true love is an indescribable force that cannot be withstood. My H said to me when he left "I want to know what it feels like to be in love" ... ouch!
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That doesn't sound like a woman who believes in forever. You just have to wait for her to reach her next stage where your H will no longer be compatible with her new self.
Why are you even keeping that letter. Just toss that rubbish in the bin.
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When the First BD with the exow and the divorce happened.
He was pushing for the D's to meet her.
My youngest replied " Sure..I'd like to meet her so I can kick her ass for her"
To which the ex replied " Awww it isn't all her fault"
For me the blame rest squarely on the cheating spouse. If they don't have enough character to resist whatever it is they think these OP have or can offer. To the point that they destroy their own families.
Who needs them?
l like your youngest init , but gotta agree with you .
Once l was drinking with a bunch of blokes and all this came up.
And it was hands down and if a h or w is putting it out , then they are to blame.
Because there is always someone round willing to pick up the pieces or simply looking for a mate but that's when it's up to us or our supposed other halves to say no thanks, we'll work it out.
The guys all agreed you can't really blame an outsider if they are only seeing what is put in front of them and tbh , l go with that too.
My w told him God knows what ! Not that l'll be giving him any medals that's for damn sure, have even be tempted to accidentally swerve and oops, l just ran over om, damn.
But all she had to do is say no thanks, l'm married and have a family, l'm going home.
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songanddance your Hs ow sounds awful! What a thing to say "I wish I had never adopted her" WOah! And her possessiveness is creepy, did it feel quite good to hear that information though?
Yes it did because it validated what I already believed.
OW wrote me a letter three weeks after BD. If ever anyone was in doubt about OW - read the summary of this letter which I posted on my 4th thread.
“Dear S&D
I realise that a lot has been said and written (meaning she has read H’s BD letter to me)
And I felt that it was time that I should write things from my perspective. You are under no obligation to read it but I wanted…. to cover the points in a rational manner and in a way that you could digest them at a pace you are happy with.
I would first of all like to say that I never set out to have any feelings for H ….but I am unable to ignore the force that has put us together and forged a union that has taken me completely by surprise.
I did not set out to hurt anybody and have not asked anything of H that he has not willingly given… I will support him in the situation that he needs to be in to be able to be at peace with himself whether that is with me or you………(long info about her finance and current H and her medical issues…)
……Family is one of the most important things to me and I am always the one to provide, my H and I agreed early on that we would not stay together for the sake of the children and I believe that you should stay in a marriage because you want to be with the other person…….you have to be someone that the other person wants to be with… it is not an automatic right because you have made vows…
I have always been quite private and found attention difficult……. In your H I have found someone where I am completely able to be myself…. He brings out the best in me and we are very positive together….. As much as it hurts me for my family to be broken like this…..
(she then expands on how “private” she is….and how she is leaving her H because he doesn’t want to join her “journey” of self discovery)
He is aware that his decision is a major flaw…. As much as he may wish to be he is not the right companion for me at this stage…I very much hope that I can continue my journey with H(mine)
I do not want you to think that I have taken these steps lightly or without a lot of soul searching… It is inevitable that people will be hurt but is it right (now paraphrasing because her sentence is far too long) for l one to sacrifice his (ie my H) happiness simply out of duty – it is very selfish of the other (ie ME S&D) to expect that.
If you would like to meet to discuss this then I am happy to do so.. I’m sorry if you feel that I have intruded but I am …. A helpful person and care deeply for others often to my own detriment.
I do not ask anything for me…..but I do ask this for H as it is tearing him apart and I will support him with whatever he needs.
Enough said about affair down.
l just wanna accidentally run over her after l finish throwing up.
l especially like the line about her and h agreeing they will never stay just for the kids, only kids after all, right!
And l wonder when that was anyway,20 yrs ago.
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Well Hawk I don't expect any accolades for this.
When I was 36 a man whom I thought was the love of my life once again made contact with me.
His first words were: Are you happy?
Uhmmm well no.
I was about 8 months pregnant with my second child..the ex was perusing a career in something I knew he would only be doing for a paycheck and attending school.
I agree to see him. He drove 600 miles to see me. We spent some time together. For me it wasn't about sex ( as there was none as he was a full blown alcoholic and had ruined his body) It was about how I FELT when I was with him.
That changed the second time I saw him. He was drinking vodka straight out of the bottle at 7AM.
I realized at that very second I was not going to sacrifice the family for him. I wasn't going back to where he came from with him and take the kids and I wasn't going to divorce the ex and have a relationship with him or move him into the house.
After it was over (I ended it 6 months later) I CLOSED a door I had needed to since I was 16 when I first met him. Most of the relationship was fueled by my guilt.
The ex found out after the fact and left the house (and to be honest didn't want him either but he hounded me so relentlessly I gave in)
That's what started me accounting for every place I went, who I saw, and what I did for the next 18 years or so. But that wasn't enough. He still threw that in my face any chance he got.
So I guess this was payback for that.
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I believe I also just witnessed possessive infatuation at my MILs funeral. OW is in her late 40s, and my take-away after the funeral was that she might as well have just lifted her leg and led on him the way she was behaving.
possessive in-fatuation has a tendency to bring out the worst when the recipient resists or has a spouse or others in the circle of influence who are resistant.
This is what I believe I witnessed in its full glory. She met S21 for the first time at his grandmother's visitation. The man didn't introduce them; she had to introduce herself. She had to know I would be there. She saw my SIL embrace me--a real embrace. She saw her boyfriend and his wife hug. It we a hug of compassion only. But she couldn't know that. And she saw the family accept me. She probably overheard various family members telling me the door was not closed in our relationship.
And so through her behavior, she basically peed on him.
I have always suspected that my Hs ow is whispering in my Hs ear, making me out to be even worse than even he says I am
I think many of us believe this. Shortly after mine moved out, I politely requested that he stop listening to others who tell him my motivations, especially others who have never met me. His response was a flash of guilt then the MLC stare. But not once since have I been told what my motivations are.
Of course they would do something like this. They know the relationship is based on lies. In my sitch, as I am processing everything that happened at MILs funeral, I am beginning to wonder just how solid their relationship could be after 2.5 years.
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Why are you even keeping that letter. Just toss that rubbish in the bin.
Very simple Paradigm. When H comes out of the tunnel (whether we are together or not) - when he hits remorse and apologises, when we have that conversation - I will make him read it and then let him have it with both barrels.
I have been remarkably restrained (for the majority of the 2.5 years) and immeasurably polite, bright and breezy with him. Showing him that letter will help ensure that I make him and keep him accountable for everything he has done. Stayed says that whether in reconciliation or not - the LBS must hold the MLCer's feet to the fire and not let them think that because it is in the past it is done with.
This is my way of dealing with that part of the catharsis.
I will only burn it when I believe that H is fully aware of what he has done and is hurting for doing so! This is not anger - this will be karma!
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l like your youngest init , but gotta agree with you .
Once l was drinking with a bunch of blokes and all this came up.
And it was hands down and if a h or w is putting it out , then they are to blame.
Because there is always someone round willing to pick up the pieces or simply looking for a mate but that's when it's up to us or our supposed other halves to say no thanks, we'll work it out.
The guys all agreed you can't really blame an outsider if they are only seeing what is put in front of them and tbh , l go with that too.
My w told him God knows what ! Not that l'll be giving him any medals that's for damn sure, have even be tempted to accidentally swerve and oops, l just ran over om, damn.
But all she had to do is say no thanks, l'm married and have a family, l'm going home.
Song for this thought...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go7gn6dugu0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go7gn6dugu0)
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;D ;D ;D @ that letter. What a pathetic lump. I remember seeing it on your thread, but it still doesn't disappoint. And you're not divorced, so you see what kind of commitment your H was ultimately willing to make. She split up her family (good for them, honestly - the child deserves better than a borderline mother. Had one, got free, don't look back!), and he still just makes drop-in visits. And she's such a lump, that's what she accepts after all of this time.
Reminds me of the OW in my case, but she was after cash. Told my late business friend (because that's normal, for someone to hunt down all of your connections while they're playing old timey footsie in a tent with your H) she needed to escape her H's (magically not hers) debts and medical bills from his serious illness because they were "annoying" her. Enter my H to save the day! Her response to being outed as a cheater on FB by me? That she was having an "exhausting" week. My friend said at the time, "Then don't firetruck someone else's husband, and you'll have more energy!".
And here the OW and xH are supposedly married now, but he won't finish the settlement with me. Because...they NEVER get off the fence until they are PUSHED!
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I will start by saying I do not post often at all, but i am hear reading about the LBS's experiences everyday. I am 8 months into this (newbie, still married with no papers drawn up, H is living with the OW) and this site has been a lifesaver for me . I am no longer standing, as i have no respect left for who this man has become (i'll call him crazypants, or CP) and the things he has said to justify leaving me and my babies can never be forgiven. Though I have learned to detach and GAL, and am getting better at both, everything that has happened in the last 8 months still affects me everyday. I am still grieving for my marriage and for the loss of my husband and father of my children, and still find myself thinking way too often about CP and her.
The reason for my post today...I spent a long time in the days after discovery of her wondering what she had that I didn't, how she must be such a wonderful person to be described as a saint by my own husband! and just giving her too much headspace in general. As i read the articles, and read the experiences of others, and started putting together what I knew of her (CP used to talk about her prior to bomb drop as she is his assistant) and started to realize quickly that she IS an affair down, and looooves to play victim, which is probably one of the things that attracted him to her is his crazy MLCer mind. The perfect person to play knight in shining armor to. However, even after my realization, there were still days when I doubted myself, and compared myself to her. Made her out to be bigger in my mind than i should have, and gave her too much power over me. I doubted the concept of affair down, thought it may just be a theory to make LBSers like me feel better and told myself that it may just be that he found someone new and smart and interesting and was over his SAHM wife.
Last weekend there was a gathering that I would have normally been at, that was attended by CP and OW. I heard in detail from two of my closest friends who attended, who know almost everything that has happened between us in the last 8 months, that what all the articles talk about and what everyone keeps repeating about the OP is absolutely accurate. The OP are broken individuals, who have been lied to and deceived by our spouses. Don't feel sorry for them though, because they have put themselves in this position, and are so weak themselves that they use the same excuses to justify their awful behavior and betrayal to everyone. The OW approached these two friends (separately) and attempted to strike up conversations, be friendly, incite pity for herself and CP, tried really hard to make excuses for him and his behaviors by telling them that he had been unhappy and had married me because he thought it was expected of him, etc...(the last of the same excuses he has made to me, because the earlier reasons of me being too controlling with the kids and not getting along with his parents were not working with anyone he would tell them to). She was shut down and told off by both my friends, and actually had the gall to say to one of the two "it really sucks to be me tonight." My friends spoke to each other after, and both could not believe her nerve.
One of them told me that they just kept repeating to each other that CP left me for HER? They both had so much respect for CP before all of this (their Hs were CPs closest friends as well, which is how i know these ladies) and cannot believe that this is happening. CP has cut himself off from everyone, and both of my friends heard comments from various people all night about how he's not himself, he's stupid for doing what he did, and that the grass isn't greener. Apparently CP and OW left early...an event where he would have normally been the life of the party and tearing up the dance floor with me and the other ladies present. They slunk away into the night, barely speaking to anyone.
Take heart everyone, especially the newbies like me. They may have turned our lives upside down, but we will come out of this stronger. Their lives suck, and as much as we think those two are happy with each other, and life is coming up roses for them, it isn't. They are two miserable, deeply insecure and unhappy individuals who only have each other to lean on...and two unsteady people holding each other up is not going to end well. So it's important for us to live our lives the best we can, and move forward and keep our heads up. We will have light after our period of darkness, and every day is one day further away from the pain we felt at BD. We have been through the worst and are digging ourselves out and getting better. They haven't faced anything yet, and keep adding more and more crap to their pile, so when the time comes to dig themselves out...I see why some people decide to never come out of it, and dig themselves in deeper and deeper.
I hope this helps someone out there, because the feelings these people incite in us isn't fair, and we all deserve better.
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It's not always an affair down but more often than not it is, since the MLCer goes for the first person who strokes his ego, either through words or a perceived potential to lift him up from the dump in which he thinks he is mired.
I have learnt that the kind my MLCer went for may look really enticing to a middle-aged man when she is merely a 2D picture, but the moment she animates and/or opens her mouth, the bubble bursts. It's like killing your friends over a $1000 bill you find on the pavement when you're dead broke, only to discover later that it's only monopoly money.
My MLCer's OW is the kind that many men from my country and even from America and Europe lust after, only to come out broke and broken. I have had their gremlins snatch food off my table when I was vacationing in their country. If anyone finds that this is a treasure, then I wish him a happy life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX_jUhTyj7U
http://meebal.com/foreigners-being-financially-ruined-by-thai-wives/
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Agree with EVERYTHING you said. I had the same type of troll experience.
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Oh this thread will fill up quickly. I could do it myself and I have put very little time into thinking about "the girl".
She's half his age and when they met she was in debt. He makes a lot of money.
She moved in with him 3 months later, when he was still married, at the time she hadn't met our kids, any of his friends or family. He described her to his friend as "controlling", (this was at the beginning) yet he still left his wife of 28 years and moved in with this stranger.
Coworkers said she does not have one friend, not one, when people see her coming they walk the other way.
Husband has lost all respect at work, and has also lost all of his friends, either from hiding from them or b/c no one wants to be near her. Husband is no longer allowed to mention my name, he is not allowed to talk or even look at another woman, he had to sell his motorcycle (which he loved), he was recently kicked out of his band by his former friend of 30+ years b/c according to his band mates the girl is a "huge tw@t".
I hope someday to hear stories of how bad it really was... :P
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Thank you so much HR for this thread i needed to hear all this so much, I am also in it for 8 months and always wondered all the same things. So Thank You this has helped
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I only heard little snippets the first 1-2 years about the girl.
I heard she was "controlling" (said by my MLCer)
by coworkers - she never went to the dentist in her life, in debt, had too many anxieties, hated by everyone, etc
That was mild to what I heard from his bass player a few months ago. That's when I really got a window into her disorders. He is still with her though. Good, I think her crazy is pushing him through the tunnel.
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I truly believe for some reason they DO need an affair down.
I think I mentioned somewhere that my H only met one woman after BD through a dating service. She was beautiful, 9 years younger than him, owned her own home and had a great job with the Army (a chemist).
He saw her once had coffee together and once they met for an hour to shoot pool. Than nothing.
I believe why it didn't work out was because she WAS NOT broken. She had her life together. She didn't need rescuing.
To me it made sense. She would not have been an affair down so she was worthless to him. She would never have fed his ego.
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Broken people only get broken people! 8)
As you said a healthy person would never date an alcoholic or anybody that is just not right or in their right mind ..
that is something that I just came to realize I think within the last month or so ..
That's why I do not envy her at all anymore, I'm over that..
I kind of pity her ,because she only knows to shell of the man that I once married and I know that deep in down inside he still is and hopefully in his own time when he's fixed will come out again .. And then he will want nothing to do with that woman . ::)
His father (who also went through a midlife crises and went through and reconnected with his wife) said once to her (his wife) :" I feel sorry for this other woman because I promised her a future and even to marry her ( she was on her second marriage ) , told her I loved her .. But I never did .. I only used her for my selfish ego .." :-\
That combined with the knowledge that I have gained within the last couple of months and everything I read about the other woman, makes me like I said look at it a little bit more from a different perspective.. And distance ..
And I know that two broken people (unhappy people) cannot be happy at all - it just doesn't work ! They are not able to fix themselves (at the certain stage in the crisis) , nevertheless each other ..
So I think you for that observation and post. I think it really helps those people who really still have their doubts, that the other life with the other person is truly really better as they say (MLC) and feel awful about what they have contributed to their marriage ..
Knowing that it is not us or our marriage at all, but the other spouse who has the crises makes things so much easier !
And the comfort is in knowing that in time ,whenever that will be, we will get our apology and the acknowledgment from them (MLC) themselves that it was never us in the first place ..
But all the all the hurt we had to go through of course we still remember ...but from it we come out a better and stronger person .. That I am thankful for .. ;)
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Hi all,
I never bothered with the OW too much in my situation. She didn't have anything on me. How could she when she is just a child basically?
Student of his
Early 20's while he was late 40's at the time
No career but did work at Forever 21 for a while
No body curves. In fact she is built like a preadolescent. No hips, no chest.
She wears these clothes she bought in the children's section of the store.
She wore her hair in pig tails.
She just looks so young. When he posted the one and only picture of her and him standing next to each other, a few of our business colleagues commented that they did not know he had a daughter and asked when she would be graduating from high school.
Lived with her parents until they rented a small apartment for her on campus.
Documented history of suicide attempts.
Documented history of depression when boyfriends left her.
Documented history of stalking them after relationship is over.
Documented history of having "fantasies" and obsessions
So immature-her facebook likes included spongebob and hello kitty. She proudly declared she could speak two languages American English and British English. In the circles we are involved in, most speak several languages. I speak German, Russian, Arabic and Persian for example. Ex speaks French, Russian and German.
This little girl was of no interest to me.
When ex asked me if I was jealous of her, I replied, You must be kidding. She is not important to me." He sat there speechless. Then he said, "Well, she must matter to someone." I shrugged. He then said, "Yes, yes she matters because she is a human being."
Sound like true love?
She wasn't paying me rent for head space so I gave her no head space. Mostly it turned in to a big joke.
When I went to the other house to get my things, I noticed he had a hickie. I burst out laughing. He asked what I was laughing about and I told him. He was so proud of himself for the hickie. He said, "well there was some nibbling going on." I laughed and told him it looked ridiculous. He said, some day you can have one too. I replied, not as long as I date men not boys.
I could fill pages with examples of her immaturity, victim playing, fantasy etc.
Lets see:
There have been more than 3 suicide attempts that I know the first year all coinciding with him spending time with me.
She failed out of grad school because she "couldn't bear to be away from him." When she returned home, he refused to allow her to move in with him.
She pretended to have been given a sexually transmitted disease by her abusive ex boyfriend. Way to make a man want you baby!
She spent more time on my facebook than I did. She copied all my "likes" and added them to hers. She started contacting my friends to see if they wanted to be friends with her. She threatened to "beat me up." I got a haircut. She got a haircut. I began teaching yoga. She began taking yoga. I posted a joke. She posted a joke. I posted pictures of me and my dogs. She posted pictures of her with her parents dogs. It got so funny a friend of mine posted pictures of me with Elvis. She then posted a song by Elvis.
Bottom line-a real affair down.
She wasn't of much interest to me until later and only in relation to the stages and patterns of MLC.
Best, LP
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I am really lucky to get regular feedback on what the OW is like. The lastest came last night - a friend of XP's rung to get some information that he needed. He had been overseas for a few years but returned home last year.
There was an annual event that we all attend and XP and I have been going to for the past 15 years. Last year was the first one I missed -it was 3 months after BD. of course XP took OW, it was one of the darkest times I had lived through. I had imagined that they would be there and everyone would be happy to meet OW etc etc.
Oh now mistaken I was - the friend went up to XP to catch up with him and turned to OW (thinking she was me - apparently looked very similar to how I did 10 years ago :o) and said -who the f@$k are you?! Everyone around them started to laugh and one whispered that they would full him in later. This friend said to XP - what the f@$k have you done you silly "c word", where the he!! is P? XP dropped
his head and walked away - didn't introduce him to OW. Bet that made them both feel special!!!
Friend said that XP and OW got really drunk, everyone was talking about what an idiot he was and what a skank she was!
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I AGREE 200%... massive "fling-down" for my husband . I knew her ( former family member ) and she was bat-crap crazy , a long long track record of horrible decisions, would lay down with anything with blood running thru it ... and he knew all this . But ..she was cute , giddy and "dumsel " smiles and just a sick "victim " of extremely poor moral fiber , character and integrity . In her 20's , she married a man approaching 50.. and of course that lasted very briefly . She has 2 sons .. 1 cannot decide about his sexual identity or stay out of jail, and the other is permanently disabled from drug abuse . Her second marriage ended with her being charged with assault , hauled off to jail and convicted . He "dated " this piece of work while she was on probation . (duh ???) . Her 2nd husband has undergone 2 facial surgeries to reconstruct his face ... she smashed him in a drunken brawl. She cared NOTHING to chat with my children while she was involved with their father ... To top her pathetic behavior off, she went away for the weekend with my mental case husband .. 9 days after her only sister was found dead . And never even mentioned it . I distinctly remember saying repeatedly to the marriage counsellor .. " I do not have to be anything special, not educated , not a great mom, not loyal or faithfull .. nothing . Because he has proven that he will scr$w anything . It still defies belief and can make me sick . At times .. I ask myself .. "and I want him why ?".
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I guess it makes sense. like someone said, they probably aren't mentally mature enough in their crisis to date someone their own age.
You can fool young women. Older women run a mile if they hear "my W doesn't understand me." ::)
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Documented history of suicide attempts.
Documented history of depression when boyfriends left her.
Documented history of stalking them after relationship is over.
Documented history of having "fantasies" and obsessions
I could fill pages with examples of her immaturity, victim playing, fantasy etc.
Lets see:
There have been more than 3 suicide attempts that I know the first year all coinciding with him spending time with me.
She failed out of grad school because she "couldn't bear to be away from him." When she returned home, he refused to allow her to move in with him.
She pretended to have been given a sexually transmitted disease by her abusive ex boyfriend. Way to make a man want you baby!
She spent more time on my facebook than I did. She copied all my "likes" and added them to hers. She started contacting my friends to see if they wanted to be friends with her. She threatened to "beat me up." I got a haircut. She got a haircut. I began teaching yoga. She began taking yoga. I posted a joke. She posted a joke. I posted pictures of me and my dogs. She posted pictures of her with her parents dogs. It got so funny a friend of mine posted pictures of me with Elvis. She then posted a song by Elvis.
She sounds like she has Borderline Personality Disorder, LP. And no identity. Scary.
There's talk on threads about many OP's being narcissists, and while I don't discount that, there's also a lot of OP's out there who sound like they have BPD. Or both NP and BP---either traits or full blown disorder.
It's no wonder that the MLCer/OP relationship falls apart. Can you imagine the kind of "relationship" an emotionally unstable/emotionally immature MLCer and an emotionally unstable (i.e. personality disorder)/emotionally immature OW/OM have?
I bet that initial attraction is like electricity. And then eventually reality sets in. :o :o
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Yeah who holds up who??? :o
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I let the popcorn bag go around... ;D.. These are some awesome stories....
Someone like a drink too.. ?? Nachos...?? Anyone... ;D
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Yes, some of us were blessed with special boys and even more special girls.
I have given some thought to the way the end of their relationship happens and believe I have put together a possible roadmap explanation
and building off some of the theory of the famous pioneers in MLC.
About the end of the relationship,
Here are my thoughts on the OP and the possible end of that relationship.
If you are a newbie, stop right here. Don't read this. Come back in a year. Read it then. You are not ready to even figure this in to all that is going on in your life.
This is just my opinion based on my experience and observation. It is not gospel. I could be dead wrong in your situation as one size does not fit all in MLC.
I believe the OP has characteristics of the parent these people have the big FOO issue with. It is one of the things that subconsciously draws them to the person.
After all MLC is a series of patterns and stages, that repeat and repeat until the MLC person finally moves. Some of the stages are actually repeats of mini stages within the bigger stage. Some loop back over and over like a car that keeps going around the block because it misses its turn off. Until the car finally gets it right.
At first the relationship between the MLC man and the OW is electric. He is fulfilling needs of hers by playing the knight in shining armour or such. He is saving her. She adores and worships him. fulfilling a need in him. He is manic basically. She feeds that. MLC man appears to be addicted to her. He wants to be with her all the time. He thinks she is fun and free, bohemian, no pressure, no responsibilities. He will spend and spend on her and himself. He is desperate to have fun, to run, to begin his new life, to find and solidify a new identity and a new life. He is going back in time, trying to get it right this time. He is going deeper and deeper into replay.
The OW feeds this devolving. She is happy while he goes back to being a teenager. She is more and more certain he is staying with her. Yes, the wife still makes her insecure but she is getting a big return on her investment. Perhaps he is paying her bills. Perhaps he has helped her get raises and promotions at work. Perhaps he is buying her presents or taking her traveling. Perhaps he is filling her need for a father figure. Whatever.
But then over time, things shift and change for the MLC person and the OW.
The MLC man devolves. He is not able to maintain the manic highs of the beginning. The depression in him is growing. He is becoming more forgetful. Perhaps the money is running low. The tidy sum he had tucked away is gone likely. He may have lost his job or he has had a slap on the back of his head in the divorce arena. The bills are piling up. Pressure is rising.
In the meantime, the OW is taking over more. She is tired of hearing about the wife. She may be tired of being kept in the shadows. She wants recognition as the victor in the war over H. She wants to reap the benefits for her investment. She wants acknowledgement and recognition from his friends and colleagues perhaps. She may be pushing hard for marriage if Mr. MLC has not yet married her. Perhaps she wants a house like the wife has. She wants a return on her investment.
But the MLC man is still devolving. In some ways she has to take control since he is just not quite capable and sharp right now. More and more things fall to her to decide and take over responsibility for. She is taking control of more and more things. Perhaps it is his business. Perhaps the checkbook. Perhaps she tries to micro manage his social life and activities. She lays down the law about any further ruminating about the ex-wife. She makes more demands. She is beginning to like being in the drivers seat. And he is leaning hard on her. She is the parent and he is childlike in many ways in his dependence on her. This is where the addiction is thorough and even visible to others who really know him. When she controls the decisions she makes naturally benefit her. She didn't enter into this for nothing. She wants a return on her investment.
By now, he has devolved about as far as he is going to and found no answers to his pain and confusion. He yearns to be manic again like in the beginning. He is restless. He may be having flashes of anger and frustration with OW in private. He may be withdrawing in to himself some.
OW knows that something is shifting. She senses he needs some drama to help him become manic and in effect be able maintain the feed required for him to stay devolved and her in charge. She casts about for that. Why not the ex wife? She was always good for drama to keep him manic. Or how about an accidental pregnancy? Or perhaps a new house? She has to maintain her position. She can't let him grow or slip all the way in to the big depression stage. (Not that the OW is aware of this consciously)
But the more he is restrained the more he begins to resent her. She is now in full parent mood. Something inside him wants to learn and grow. The hole inside him is not filled any longer by OW. He is frustrated. He withdraws some. (Just like he did with the wife in the lead up stage 1 of MLC)
Frustration makes him angry. (Ladies, remember the anger stage?) Anger makes him mean. But OW is also mad. This is not what she bargained for. She likes being in control. She likes him dependent on her. She is not supposed to be treated like the wife was after all she is special. She is not (insert adjectives used to describe the wife at the beginning of the affair.) She either gets him under control or its war.
You see, I think it is probable that these people go through a mini version of the first two stages in the lead up to the possible end of the Replay stage and the end of the OW relationship. Then just as they did with us, they face a fork in the road. One fork is a left and on to OW2, 3, 4 or back to OW1 for a repeat. The other is on to depression. Which way they go, is the question. If he is ready to face the Foo issues he has recreated in his life with OW, then he is out. If not, he recreates it all over again and circles back.
For example, my ex has a crazy mother. She worships him and treats him as her husband. She is narcissistic, controlling, manipulative, and bossy. She is also big in the area of theatrical gestures. Once when his dad tried to leave, she threw herself on to the ground behind his car. She was almost run over. She has a history of suicide attempts and serious depression as well. She is delusional and controlling in that she denied being pregnant until she went into labor with him in the chair at home. Her 14 year old daughter had to drive her to the hospital. By the time they arrived she was crowning and still denying that she was pregnant. When they brought the baby home, she let the daughters care for him while she lay in bed receiving visitors telling her how brave and incredible she was to go through something like that. She tells that story at every family gathering.
I believe he finally found a girl who would act like his mother. She has already covered many of the characteristics from suicide attempts to yelling, screaming, swearing, playing the victim, etc. Now as I understand it she is very controlling and has taken over everything from living arrangements to what he is allowed to spend at the store to what music he is allowed to listen to and how long he can spend talking with other women either in his office or on the internet.
See the circles and repeating patterns? If they had to go through denial and anger with us, then why not with the OW but on a much more condensed time frame naturally.
Best LP
Now I am off to home to take some medication as I have a miserable migraine. To those I promised to answer questions, I will try to get back to you all tonight but I am just not able to at the present.
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ONE IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE IS:
NO WHERE IN THAT WHOLE DISCUSSION IS THE WIFE DOING ANYTHING OTHER THAN TAKING CARE OF HER OWN SANDBOX AND MINDING HERSELF AND HER RESPONSIBILITIES AND HER FUTURE.
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This is very well explained and I think you are on the right track and actually nailed it 100% ..
I mean however do you explain the erratic behavior in the beginning with moving out and dropping everything for this ??
especially with mine for example: he dropped the bomb on me 4 months ago and already signed a legal separation agreement ( forced me into doing this ) and pretty much will divorce me next year -unless something happens within the next six months that she is putting pressure on him ..
The OW in my case is almost 10 years younger, the same career but in a different country (army, they have met while he was there for four months with his job in the army ), As far as I know was raised by a single mother and no siblings... her father was out of the picture. sure she definitely needs a father figure and male encouragement which mine totally provides ..
I have overheard many phone conversations (yes I snooped and in my case helped detach faster although it hurt bad of course) where he had to encourage her and build her up .. He told her that it was not the way she was feeling meaning " no you are doing a great job ,don't put yourself down, you are an awesome soldier " etc.. So clearly they both like that department because he needs a lot of attention apparently too ..
I have found two interviews with her so she definitely is one that likes the spotlight and I think she has histrionic personality disorder .. She is doing hip-hop dancing in a group for competition so again there's the spotlight and the acknowledgment .. According to my husband she is very funny ..
As for who of his parents he is re-creating that story in my case with-unfortunately I do not know ..
He moved out of the house into his own apartment pretty much as soon as we moved into the new state due to military orders and the first 11 days, I was witness to the entire thing ..now I only get to see him when he sees the children and picks them up and that is it . Because every time he was here it was either talk about the lawyer or about him wanting a divorce and not coming ever back ..
so the whole thing pretty much only works online through what's app, face time and Skype ..
Because she needs to stay in her country and they only see each other during vacation and flying back-and-forth ..
So he does not move in with her in a classical situation. I think even if she was here he wouldn't do that either due to the military code .. It would be totally a secret thing .so I'm wondering with this emotional affair and physical affair, how long in my case it would last..? until it Wears off...due to the fact that they do not have a real interaction ,so I think it might drag a little bit longer -unless it is the same thing that she finally makes pressures for him to show a commitment: maybe I'm social media ...
or say something that pressures him in any shape or form? or because by the time we will be divorced and she is all the way overseas, it might be even faster.. because she might start to doubt his Fidelity! because that is what he did with her on me and because she cannot see him all the time and build that trust and so she might destroy herself ..
I am pretty sure she cheats over there with other people on him as well .so I think finally what will happen is she is not sure anymore if he's honest And faithful..
But I agree 100% with what you wrote that this is the dynamics roughly shaped in pretty much 90% of the MLC cases ..
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Threads like these always fill right up! Pass the popcorn...and where do I begin? ;D
My MLCer told me at BD that OW is the female version of him. :o I'm not so sure he had that quite right because the description I was told about her is that she is obnoxious, controlling, and psychotic. That's not him, even on a bad day. What I think he was referring to is that she was willing to go to his blood and gore movies, listen to his hip hop and rap, and eat Chinese food with him....oh, and must not forget to mention SHE likes tequila....and for good measure, she's kinky in bed! ::) I compromised on plenty of things, and never once did he complain about what I did or didn't do with him, but I guess those few things made her his twin. ::)
She also came on to him at just the right time when he was feeling very depressed. In just a few short weeks of being with her, he took up smoking...and drinking...and partying with 20-somethings. He always told me he was too old to go back to that sh!t anymore. Then again, he always told me he was too old to meet up with anyone new and I'd have him for life. :-\
The last time he attempted to stay overnight with me, back in Feb of this year, ended in her showing up at 9pm at his parents' house where he was supposed to be staying the night. That got his phone monitored for several weeks, plus forced him to begin moving his belongings out and get his address changed. I suspect OW gave him the ultimatum that those things needed to be done ASAP to "fix" what he had done wrong.
The last report I heard about the two of them is that they are not well liked in the little town they moved to....where they are living "happily ever after" in a former funeral home. :o There is garbage all over the yard and frequent screaming matches between the two of them on the front lawn.
What is particularly interesting to me is the fact that this woman has the same name as his S20's mom, and has the same big red hair like S20's mom had back then, as well as the same body shape/size. The controlling things OW has done read direct from his own mother's playbook, although his mother can not stand her...at all. They are like gas and matches. So, his OW is a cross between his mother and his girlfriend when he was 20....both of whom he has repeatedly told me he hates.
You can't make this sh!t up!
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As far as looks:
- I have been told she's as tall as me (and I'm 6 foot) ,
- from pictures she looks a little bit more chubby (granted I lost 40 pounds doing this whole ordeal to say that I never was overweight but being 6 foot I had a healthy normal weight ),
-she has blonde long hair (which I initially did too, when we were dating now it is all short and dark here due to maintenance)
- I still think I am more attractive ;D then her ...by the way her tooth is crooked and that's the front one ..
- she has small boobs (which on one comment early he said something like my boobs were shrinking (weight loss) then I said "why do you care" and he said "of course I care " and then he said "your butt gets smaller too" and I said "since when are you A butt person" and he said "I like smaller boobs- you know like a handful" :o well that's what she has .. Sure buddy.. My 36DD never bothered you)
So there's no coincidence other than I have been told the girl he was dating before were all blondes ..so he stuck to that scheme ...
I think in the end it boils down to : she was willing and available ..
Easy to get and not a lot of energy and easy to manipulate and control.
So I honestly do not know how she is I can't put my finger on it and I think I will probably never find out . It could possibly be his mother... because his mom is a very strong and independent person same like me that's why I think he got attracted to me ..however a person like that must be really weak to be rescued ..
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I believe the OP has characteristics of the parent these people have the big FOO issue with. It is one of the things that subconsciously draws them to the person.
After all MLC is a series of patterns and stages, that repeat and repeat until the MLC person finally moves. Some of the stages are actually repeats of mini stages within the bigger stage. Some loop back over and over like a car that keeps going around the block because it misses its turn off. Until the car finally gets it right.
I know i was supposed to stop reading LP, being a newbie and all, but I believe the exact same thing! I was telling my bff that there are three possible endings to this.
1- He figures out his childhood crap and realizes other people cannot make you happy, it has to come from within. If this happens, he dumps her fat ass (thank you to my friend at the gathering saturday for saying that ;D).
2- He doesn't figure it out, still thinks that others are supposed to bring about his happiness, and does to her what he did to me when she stops "making him happy", and finds someone else and dumps her ass
3- Remains status quo. He is so deep in his crap that he doesn't want to find a way out, and remains in this with her forever because he has burnt all bridges and feels he has no choice but to suck it up. They live miserably ever after.
After that, it didn't only suck to be her saturday night, it will suck to be her forEVER!
Ah well...I've heard Karma is a bit of a b*tch... ;)
Also, some of these women...wow. Pass the popcorn this way please!!
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From my experience I would agree that the OW can represent their parent and also that the MLCer “recognises” themselves in the OW.
OW#1 was 35 years younger and a lowly subordinate on a job with aspirations of making it in his industry. Others on the job described her as talented, ruthless and emotionally immature. Over the two weeks of the job, she also hit on several older men. She threw an emotional paddy at a party the team had for her birthday (he told me she “got upset” from something someone said) and ran away into the moonlight. DB followed her to “see if she was ok” and that’s where apparently it all began. DB later described her as having been badly treated all her life by people who didn’t understand her, "having had her wings clipped" and being treated by her family without love.
She got pregnant 3 months into their extremely secretive affair. She had an abortion, and then flew away for ever, professing undying love for him and calling herself his “wife” in letters she wrote to him at the time. Just before she left he introduced her to his youngest two children. His oldest two already knew her because they are in the same industry, and his middle two I don’t know if they knew her or not. His mother only knew about her cos I told her. He was very depressed after she left but in true MLC fashion was all over me like a rash.
Over the next more than a year he tried to resurrect their relationship, flying across the world to see her especially for a month, 6 months later, after which he told me she was “in a very sad state from which I doubt she’ll ever recover” and said he wished to reconcile with me. This wish lasted 3 days and it is after this I think he hooked up with OW#2 , who had been hanging around him for some time. Three months later he again visited OW#1, spending a week with her en route home from a job. Six months later in May this year he spent three days in her city, again en route from somewhere else, but I am pretty sure he didnt even see her. After this trip he told me she didn’t want a bar of him.
Recently he has said he was attracted to OW#1 because she was as damaged as he was and in similar ways. He said she was like the female side of him.
Overlapping with the gradual demise of this affair, he had hooked up with OW#2, and I think she is playing the next part in the working out of his childhood trauma. She is an alcoholic, vacant brained loser with a drunken abuser family of origin, a failed, abusive marriage and four adult alcoholic/druggie loser/abuser sons, who continually hit her up for money, alcohol, cigarettes and food and have drunken brawls and smash up her house. OW#2’s youngest son (20) and the oldest (30) and his wife are currently living with her. She was born, brought up, schooled and lived with her exH in DB's childhood town and country area and has never lived anywhere else. When she was younger she was the town bike. Now she is the town drunk that everyone feels sorry for, renowned for not being quite "all there”. When DB hooked up with her she was actually living in her childhood home, (looking after her dying father, who had dementia) just down the street from DB’s mother, who still lives in his childhood home. DB's mother is disabled with arthritis and other ailments but is still a big drinker (OW#2 managed to get a job through the local health service helping her in her home and has become her BFF, carting her off drinking every Friday night! ) DB's father died 15 years ago - he was a drunken maniac who beat his mother and him and his seven siblings and I also suspect may have sexually abused his sisters.
You can’t make this $h!te up!
OW#2 is also similar in some ways to his first wife, who he deserted with three children, for a younger woman - he has always professed huge amounts of shame and guilt for this. She was a local country girl and his high school sweetheart, but a clean living Christian. OW#2, incidentally, went to the same school, although 7 years behind them, so he never knew her at school. She is a train wreck that calls to his Knight in shining armour and he has done many things to help her and her sons, while professing disgust and derision about her, her family and her way of life (needless to say he has kept their R a total secret, even from his kids, who would not believe it if they knew, I suspect!)
I figure he has attracted this broken person as a projection in a bid to heal the trauma at his core, as she inspires the desperate responsibility and pity that he must have felt for his mother and siblings (he is the oldest child). I doubt he is aware of this.
He has told me outright that he is not happy, and also that he "can't seem to stop drinking."
That last is probably what has got him in this latest mess but it was still his choice. It’s like he is trapped inside the mirror, stuck back in his childhood, surrounded by drunks, abusers and victims.
Since I've had confirmation of their PA I console myself with thinking that she is playing an important role in his healing, and there's nothing now to do but get on with my life and let them work it out. It will eventually end in tears, there is no doubt, and that is where he needs to go right now.
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This ex ow is pretty firetrucked up and he always seems to think he's got it all figured out and together so he's the "savior".
He admitted to me in an email. She wasn't the woman he thought she was and she was sadly not very tightly screwed together.
I TRIED to tell him she was a whack job before the divorce but he would not..what's the word??... LISTEN.
Also referred to me as being a wrong turn.
He emailed me once and said her childhood was 10 times worse than mine was. I'm sure she turned up the WAHH WAHH exaggerations on that. So I guess that was some attempt on his end to do what? Make me feel sorry for her?
She did prostitute from 14 until 22 in NYC. Her pimp got her pregnant then sent her back here to have the baby because she was "useless" She had a girl.
She steals she lies..they have that in common. I think she was the female version of him. Because it sure as hell isn't me.
I happened upon an old drivers license she left at the house when I went back up there. Her birthday is two days before mine..same year.
She doesn't look or act like me. She always fawned all over him whenever he and I happened to run into her. She would totally ignore me. ;D ;D
I used to think to myself "Can he see THIS?" The cow eyes.. the practically leaning into his chest gazing up at his face? I thought it was quite funny really. I didn't mention it I thought he could SEE how over the top she was being.
When he first met me my life was pretty much a mess..and took a pretty bad spiral down..he was involved in that happening. He played the same part in my life. Knight in shining Armour..smarter than me. I guess he thought he had helped "straighten me out" or some Gosh Darn thing.
He said once when we were laying in bed Post divorce.."I miss you" I told him I missed him too.
Come to find out I have no idea who he was to begin with. :o Now I know he's a coward and a bully.
I think he looked at me as being naive and stupid when he met me in my 20's.. He's 2 years younger than me and had not the quarter of the life experience I've had.
He's got that knight in shining armor complex. But refuses to see his own issues.
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It's just too hard not to jump on this thread! My initial reaction when I found out who my H was having an A with was shock. She's uneducated, not ugly but not beautiful ( his words) and has a foul mouth. She's twice divorced and her last husband was physically abusive. She has 3 kids and her 19 year old daughter had 13 arrest records ( I googled her). OW also has a bunch of court records on file, hard to tell what for.. Looks like she likes to sue people. She's not much younger than my H, 4 years. So to sum it up, she's definitely an affair down. But low and behold, she owns a horse farm in a crappy town. My H has always wanted a farm. She teaches lessons and her Yelp reviews say 'buyer beware don't leave your horse here, owner is a b!tc# and always says she has no money.' Red flag for me.
Yes, yes, yes they affair down. I think MLCer feel like losers when things fall apart, possible prior to that and find someone who thinks they're great. Who better than a loser, we are too normal
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hi all
it's so easy for the LBS to imagine that the MLCers and OW/OM are living lives of bliss, while back at the ranch, we, the LBSs are trying to piece our lives back together...
my MLCer's OW (now wife) is definitely an affair down. no question. i won't even go into it--a lot of it is on my thread. the MLCer, however, professed to me that she was "kind" "sweet" and something else--apparently the opposite of who i am. i will give him this--no one has ever, or probably will ever, refer to me as "sweet"--"kind" yes--"sweet"--no. no one with a mouth that can be as foul as mine can be categorized as "sweet" ;) and i'm fine with that...
for years, the MLCer talked about how trashy and disgusting OW was (she was our neighbor). then lo and behold, she's the dumsel in distress, and he needs to feel good about himself, so he's firetrucking her and "taking her away from it all"...go figure.
these MLCers know, somewhere down in their souls, that we, the LBSs, are the STRONG ones. and we are. we come through this awfulness--we don't run from it, we don't try to go around it--we plow THROUGH it.
i cant help but think what LP said is true in the MLCer's case:
At first the relationship between the MLC man and the OW is electric. He is fulfilling needs of hers by playing the knight in shining armour or such. He is saving her. She adores and worships him. fulfilling a need in him. He is manic basically. She feeds that. MLC man appears to be addicted to her. He wants to be with her all the time. He thinks she is fun and free, bohemian, no pressure, no responsibilities. He will spend and spend on her and himself. He is desperate to have fun, to run, to begin his new life, to find and solidify a new identity and a new life. He is going back in time, trying to get it right this time. He is going deeper and deeper into replay.
The OW feeds this devolving. She is happy while he goes back to being a teenager. She is more and more certain he is staying with her. Yes, the wife still makes her insecure but she is getting a big return on her investment. Perhaps he is paying her bills. Perhaps he has helped her get raises and promotions at work. Perhaps he is buying her presents or taking her traveling. Perhaps he is filling her need for a father figure. Whatever.
But then over time, things shift and change for the MLC person and the OW.
The MLC man devolves. He is not able to maintain the manic highs of the beginning. The depression in him is growing. He is becoming more forgetful. Perhaps the money is running low. The tidy sum he had tucked away is gone likely. He may have lost his job or he has had a slap on the back of his head in the divorce arena. The bills are piling up. Pressure is rising.
In the meantime, the OW is taking over more. She is tired of hearing about the wife. She may be tired of being kept in the shadows. She wants recognition as the victor in the war over H. She wants to reap the benefits for her investment. She wants acknowledgement and recognition from his friends and colleagues perhaps. She may be pushing hard for marriage if Mr. MLC has not yet married her. Perhaps she wants a house like the wife has. She wants a return on her investment.
But the MLC man is still devolving. In some ways she has to take control since he is just not quite capable and sharp right now. More and more things fall to her to decide and take over responsibility for. She is taking control of more and more things. Perhaps it is his business. Perhaps the checkbook. Perhaps she tries to micro manage his social life and activities. She lays down the law about any further ruminating about the ex-wife. She makes more demands. She is beginning to like being in the drivers seat. And he is leaning hard on her. She is the parent and he is childlike in many ways in his dependence on her. This is where the addiction is thorough and even visible to others who really know him. When she controls the decisions she makes naturally benefit her. She didn't enter into this for nothing. She wants a return on her investment.
By now, he has devolved about as far as he is going to and found no answers to his pain and confusion. He yearns to be manic again like in the beginning. He is restless. He may be having flashes of anger and frustration with OW in private. He may be withdrawing in to himself some.
OW knows that something is shifting. She senses he needs some drama to help him become manic and in effect be able maintain the feed required for him to stay devolved and her in charge. She casts about for that. Why not the ex wife? She was always good for drama to keep him manic. Or how about an accidental pregnancy? Or perhaps a new house? She has to maintain her position. She can't let him grow or slip all the way in to the big depression stage. (Not that the OW is aware of this consciously)
But the more he is restrained the more he begins to resent her. She is now in full parent mood. Something inside him wants to learn and grow. The hole inside him is not filled any longer by OW. He is frustrated. He withdraws some. (Just like he did with the wife in the lead up stage 1 of MLC)
Frustration makes him angry. (Ladies, remember the anger stage?) Anger makes him mean. But OW is also mad. This is not what she bargained for. She likes being in control. She likes him dependent on her. She is not supposed to be treated like the wife was after all she is special. She is not (insert adjectives used to describe the wife at the beginning of the affair.) She either gets him under control or its war.
it's like LP was a fly on the wall at my house before, during, and after BD, because the way she wrote it is EXACTLY what happened in my case, right down to the new house with OW...that's been recently; they moved far away and are currently living out on low rent lane...ha!
i also think the MLCer is one of those who will, as LP puts it:
loop back over and over like a car that keeps going around the block because it misses its turn off.
whether this means he's doomed to be a tunnel dweller is up to him. not me.
at the end of the day, and knowing what i know about OW, absolutely she's an affair down. and that's what the MLCer needed. and if he's "happy" with that, so be it. i can't do much about it (other than HATE the fact that this lowlife is now a part of my children's lives). if that's his "happy", i'm glad i'm not part of it.
after learning as much as i have about MLC and FOO issues and myself, i really cannot ever imagine a situation in which i would want to be with the MLCer again. an acknowledgement of the fact that he really firetrucked things up would be nice ;D but i'm not holding my breath.
onlyjo
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Thought I would chime in here as I have been divorced very long time and ex is still with original OW. They have lived together beginning six weeks after divorce. No marriage plans per ex. My ex met her at a dance club[bar] when he was stationed out of state. They got paired up taking dance lessons, back when line dancing was so popular.
I know what she looks like but have never spoken to her. I do know that she was married once and divorced followed by another live in arrangement that had broken up before she met my ex. She is one yr older than him, is now a retired maortgage broker. She is wealth off because she owns many rental propreties. She has no children of her own.
My adult children do not particularly care for her, stating she is not very friendly, is kind of aloof and is nothing at all like me.
Over the yrs my ex and her do a lot of what I would call upper middle class lifestyle-they go on frequent trips, etc.
My kids noticed a change beginning in ex a couple of yrs ago-he seems to be more interested in being around his kids more and is enjoying being around grandkids when they are in town.
All of the kids say he and the OW have a strange relationship, but I don't know any specifics.
He and I get a long fairly well, but I have not gotten an apology for the affair and the leaving our marriage after 29 yrs wed.
I have also noticed a change , more of who he used to be, but he is still pretty deep in replay.
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Hi all :)
This thread got me thinking about "affair down"/ lingering feelings of "not enough".
On the surface, the Parasite was obviously an "affair down" for a whole host of reasons. But there is the small voice that said/says " but that is what H wanted, what he risked/ continues to risk our M, our family for, so that's what H thinks/thought (values) more. Right?
This edited quote from another site gives insight gained by a LBS which to me was empowering at a time I needed the strength. Hope this helps someone else too.
After some time had passed, I realized that I was romanticizing and glamorizing what went on between him and OW.
I finally realized that it was OW who had never been enough. Had she been that fantastic, she wouldn't have been involved with WH to begin with. If she was enough, she wouldn't be playing the waiting game for someone else's husband. If she were enough, she wouldn't be someone that WH had to shower away and keep hidden or sneak around to be with. She wasn't. She was just as broken as he was.
With more time, I realized that it truly was WH that wasn't enough. I realized that WH had a bottomless void inside of him that no one could ever fill regardless of how many wives or OW he had. WH went through his days sucking the life and joy out of everyone around him in an attempt to fill that hole, and it was never enough. Back then, WH was unable to truly appreciate everything he had. He was too busy looking at what all he didn't have instead.
IC did a lot to help me realize that I am more than enough in both my marriage and in my own life. No, I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I like who I am. My attitude now is that if I am "not enough" for my WH, he is more than welcome to divorce me so that he is free to search for someone who is. And that would be his loss.
Just to add, this is the attitude of Parasite (posted on her social media), which is eerily echoed by a lot of OWs/OMs! Maybe they have a script too. >:( ;D
Her MEME to live by:
"I am going to do what the F@@k I want
Because people are AssH@les
And will judge you anyway
To me that says "broken--stay out of the drama"
Peace and strength
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I think in the end it boils down to : she was willing and available ..
Easy to get and not a lot of energy and easy to manipulate and control.
That really jumped out at me AS.
I think my exH just does NOT want the work involved in a true and healthy relationship. When it's new, 'she' (including me) is easy.. Infatuation covers the faults. There is fun and happiness. But when the real world settles in and the arguments happen or stresses of life...then he get's 'sick' or runs away. Does it to his mum and friends also. It has to be EASY or he's out. To him, conflict means there is something terribly wrong. We should all agree on everything ::) ::)
Hugs,
SP