Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Sassyone on April 18, 2012, 11:33:17 AM
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Just watched this video in my quest for forgiveness of all parties involved in H's MLC.
Hope it helps someone.
http://www.ehow.com/video_4751748_wanting-forgive-other-woman.html
This was another good reminder. Her topics are very spot on for us LBS'ers.
http://www.ehow.com/video_4751740_make-husband-want-again.html
Thought this would be a good topic of discussion.
Sassy
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Oh, HEEEEEEEEELL no. ;)
No, I will NOT forgive the woman who shot an arrow into the hearts of each one of my children. >:(
With all due respect to folks who feel that forgiveness is a path to peace, I am in a camp (maybe alone?) who disagrees.
I may in time learn to feel sorry for the pathetic loser that my H's OW is (and my H is, too) but I will NEVER forgive her for what she recklessly and selfishly did to my family. I don't need to do that to find peace. I will one day be less angry about what H and OW did to my family, but I will never dismiss nor forgive their actions. I will let go of thinking about it as much as I do one day, but I will always be vigilant with regard to needing to mitigate damage done to my children by OW and H.
I find peace in being a good person and not perpetrating evil against innocent people. For me, there is great peace in living according to my values, and in giving attention and love to people who deserve it--not in forgiving evil. That is my peace.
I don't believe in forgiveness without restitution. Marriage and parenting are sacred--and OW and H don't abide by the importance what was once H's role in OUR FAMILY. Given the fact that my children's souls are forever darkened by the actions of OW and H, restitution is not possible. There is no way to undo the damage she and he did, therefore, I will not forgive.
Again, if forgiveness is your path, more power to you. In no way do I want to insult you--in many ways I admire you. We all have to do what is right for ourselves. But I wanted to speak up for people who don't necessarily agree with forgiving OW/OM.
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I think forgiveness is something that is defined differently by people. For me forgiveness is not a free pass. I choose to forgive (likely not telling her) but for me to move forward.
I totally get your take on it. My sister refuses to forgive my H she thinks of it as giving him a pass. I think differently.
I read this in Psychology today and I totally relate to it.
"Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting, nor does it mean that you've given the message that what someone did was okay. It just means that you've let go of the anger or guilt towards someone, or towards yourself. But that can be easier said than done. If forgiveness was easy, everyone would be doing it."
What do we get out out of life by not forgiving?
Thoughts?
Sassy
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To me forgiveness is something you do for yourself. I forgave my H one day after I found out about the OW so I could begin to heal, but not in an, "I forgive you, it's ok" kind of way. His decisions changed everything, and my forgiveness was not about him (proven by the fact that he is yet to find it in himself to be able to accept the forgiveness. Even my bringing it up causes him to either start crying or build a wall). I forgave the people who abused me as a child, because I know I'm not their judge, but that forgiveness in no way changes what happened or how it affected me. It's just a starting point to move on, but it doesn't change events or anyone's accountability in those events.
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Loved those quick videos. Someone should have told her to sit up straight because it looked like she was lying flat in that huge chair. I have to say that I totally agree with her. I also think that forgiveness is for ME so I don't get eaten alive by anger and hatred. I tell my S16 and S18 that all the time...be careful how long you allow Dad's actions to eat you up because YOUR heart will grow hard and you are kind and loving boys...this is all Dad has right now....it doesn't make it right but empathy will help you heal. That is just my 2 cents...i think if i did not have my faith which grows stronger every day of this crisis that I would be eaten alive right now and going off the deep end.
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I agree. Forgiveness is for YOU.
It is not a free pass. It does not say that what they did was right or okay.
It means that I have let go of the anger and resentment. That I no longer carry that anger within myself - as it is like a cancer within me.
It is up to the MLCer (and the OW/OM - should she/he so choose) to forgive themselves.
Does that mean that I would verbally say to the OW in my sitch that I forgive her? No. I have never spoken to her. I have no intention to speak to her. I do not even know if she knows that I was aware of her involvement with my H.
Does that mean I would verbally say to my MLCer that I forgive him? I hope that someday I would be able to say this. But, that is up to him.....and me.
L
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The link to RCR's article on forgiveness.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_forgiveness.html
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I will not pardon, excuse, absolve, condone, nor relieve.
But I will let go of my anger, because anger is a hot and tense emotion that--you're right--will eat at ME.
And I will grow stronger by letting go of anger. I think anger comes from confusion and feeling like one has no control over their own life, or from feeling vulnerable. And my goal is to feel none of those things.
My goal is to feel in command of my emotions, and what an exercise this has been! This is not one of my best character traits--the ability to ACT and SPEAK from rationality. I do tend to be very emotionally driven, and I'm not proud of that. But I'm learning to excuse myself, regroup, think before talking/acting, to talk/act from a point of strength. Anger and hatred (and shame and fear) can be intense, but not strengthening. And this situation has afforded me the opportunity to get hold of myself and exercise discipline instead of reacting. I can be proud of that, though it's a work in progress.
So, if your point is to let go of anger, but not for anyone else's sake, and to still hold MLC'er and OW/OM accountable for their actions but be able to move onward, then I understand your motivation.
I may not feel anger toward OW and H some day, but I will never like either of them and I will never feel any motivation to help them or give anything to them, including my valuable time. There will always be better things in life to do, more important people to spend time with. These are not admirable people. I do not even wish them well, for they have hurt people, and they'll need more than my well wishes or prayers to reform themselves if they are so inclined.
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I agree that forgiveness is for you. I think it is an action and releases a person from the burden of carrying those emotions anger, blame etc. I wouldn't tell OW that... I don't think I have to. I can carry the action within myself. I think that is where it matters. She will have to seek her own forgiveness for her actions. Not up to me to relieve it.
And my H will also have to seek forgiveness for himself. I will do my best to forgive him and in time I am sure I could.
-S
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I agree that forgiving is more for me then H. I don't know how you could stay in the relationship if you did not choose to forgive. And I also feel like the forgiveness comes in stages. I have not completely forgiven my H yet. I don't think our boys have either.
It is a huge task. He has altered my life and my boys lives. It is hard to believe that he ever let himself get involved with the Wangster (MOW) but thats where I have to believe in MLC being a force he could not control. I can forgive him more easily because I believe he was totally messed up. I know the person he was.
As for the Wangster--she will awaken someday. I have released her, but I don't like her.
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I choose to forgive because it's the right thing to do and is part part of my belief system as in Colossians 3:13.
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I totally forgive both my exH and his OW (now wife) for the part they played in the demise of my marriage.
I have also forgiven myself.
Forgiveness is my choice and for me alone. Once I walked through the process of understanding why I was forgiving and have felt the benefits of it I haven't looked back. I have no need to tell him or her - my actions show that I am moving my life forward from good solid, honest foundations. I treat him with kindness and respect and wish him no ill will.
Everyday I wake up and count my blessings and sometimes I have to forgive exH and OW all over again - forgiveness happened in stages for me.
Still Standing wrote a quote from CS Lewis recently - “Every one says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive.”
It has been part of my growth , learning to understand forgiveness and put it into action.
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I've spent a lot of time thinking about forgiveness, what it means in general, and what it means for me in this situation. For a long time I couldn't get my head round the idea of forgiving if it hadn't been asked for, if it didn't come packaged with full remorse, etc.
I've found that forgiving someone who asks for it, who shows true remorse, etc., is the easy bit. It was getting my head round the other kind, the kind you do for yourself to release anger and so on, was harder.
I also bristled for a long time at the idea that you could forgive someone but still not want them in your life, because I had difficulty separating out forgiving from condoning, "giving a pass", and so on.
I read a lot about that, because I couldn't imagine not wanting my H in my life. But then one day I found myself crying, actually thinking that as he is, I didn't need/want him. That is, I didn't need/want the person who was being intentionally harsh to me. Somehow that realisation helped -- and what's more, it actually made sense. But we're talking a couple of years, here....
Much earlier on in this crisis I was wondering if I could forgive, especially when I found out about all he'd been doing. What I found was that I'd forgive in a heartbeat if I saw remorse -- there was a time when I thought I was seeing some, which is how I know. I also remember things I did when I was much younger, thinking that I'd never be forgiven for them, and found that when I really showed remorse forgiveness was instant. So that bit is easy.
Cali, I do know what you mean; and yes, it is about releasing anger so that it doesn't eat at you. That I figured out ages ago; the bit about forgiving came much, much later. That is the 'benefit', if such a word can be used, of having been in this for so long.
As for OW, well, as I really don't give the current one a second thought so it's not really an issue. The first crazy one is the one I could kill, but really, I see that she's already got her own comeuppance, so that isn't necessary. She's not worth my time and energy.
Like MF, it comes in stages, and also, it's not something that needs to be said.
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A few articles (scroll to the top) which may help our understanding of Forgiveness:
http://dividedheart.com/index.php?topic=1879.0;prev_next=next#new
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I forgive h. and OW, but as has been said previously, I have to do it quite regularly... I also forgive all my relatives (his and mine) and RL friends and acquaintances who often hurt me with insensitive remarks or seem to defend his actions and ridicule my 'stand' - this is sometimes harder ::)
I remind myself that I am compelled to forgive because of God's love for me.
I know people in RL who hang on to grievances (similar to what I go through) and allow them to fester. It makes for a very sad and bitter person.
I read on here some days ago about inhaling what is done to us, allowing the hurt to roll through and exhaling/releasing forgiveness, love and compassion.
Charlyne Steinkamp talks about releasing the fruit of the Holy Spirit on people who hurt you.
These are thoughts that have helped me in this often, daily task.
Peace
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I read this post yesterday when only StartingOverinCali had responded and I decided to think about it before posting.
Certain religions, mine included, teach forgiveness, almost above everything else. I suppose its so often brought up because it is so very hard to to. I'm not a forgiving person by nature and I've had mixed results trying to forgive a few people. I forgave my dad for being a tough/cold/mean father but I didn't do that until he proved himself to be loving and kind when I needed him much later in life. That forgiveness was a gift to both of us and I've never regretted it, particularly now that he's gone.
I've forgiven my husband for alot of things but other things will take more time. It is a gift for both of us.
I've not forgiven the other woman, even though it was a rather mild EA. I can only guess that had it been a torrid PA, that forgiveness would not be offered. So the question I ask myself is why I would forgive my husband who made a vow to me, and not her, who doesn't even know me.
Well, the truth, however stupid, is its easier to project my remaining anger onto her than it is onto him, because I first of all have to live with him, but I also have so much more invested in him.
There are many people who hold onto anger not because its a happy feeling or healthy but because in some ways it feels empowering. Is it really? I think for me the answer would be "yes". That anger can make me stick up for myself, fend off despair (which to me is the worst feeling of all) and keep me focused on my own self respect and dignity. The problem would be if it were consuming me all the time which it does not....not at all. Maybe deep down inside I am a weak person because I need to hold on to that anger to keep me sort of pumped up.
I think forgiveness is something wonderful, empowering in its own right and beyond admirable. But I also think that sometimes people have to keep their outrage going if only to right some wrongs, teach some lessons, enforce some standards.
Above all I think its a very individual thing and each of us has to decide for ourselves if that's the way to go. But I think showing these videos and adding links to forgiveness is excellent because many of us strive for that but have no idea how to go about it.
Bon
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I decided to put this here, even though it a little bit of a tangent. But it all falls in the category of forgiveness, really.
It's gratitude.
I was thumbing through a book in a shop this morning called "The Magic". It seems like a lot of hype, including a website that promises miracles without revealing what it's about (www.thesecret.tv)...
It's one of those books that you could read in half an hour, I think -- but it makes a point. It's constant refrain is that we have to say "thank you" for everything.
Funnily enough, in many ways I do that -- every morning, every evening, when I'm out and the sun is shining, and so on. That's something I've learned through this process.
The book of course has a chapter on healing relationships, and even has an example where a former wife writes out 10 "thank yous" to her ex, expressing gratitude for what they had, etc. Quite frankly such things make me retch, but I decided to suspend that reaction for a moment....
Taking it away from the "airy fairy" thing, it actually makes a lot of sense. It refers to a bible phrase where it says that all things come to those who have gratitude.
I know one thing I didn't use to do nearly enough was say "thank you" to my H for little things, things such as emptying the dishwasher. As I'm sure is very common, I had got to the point where I thought that one didn't have to thank one's spouse for things like that, that doing them was just part of the deal.
I had actually read about "good manners" soon after BD, and made a point of thanking H for things he did, at least a good part of the time, trying of course to strike the balance between doing that and coming across as "crawling". But that's beside the point right now.
Where this ties into forgiveness is the suggestion that we write out 10 things that we are thankful for about any horrible situation, person, etc. This does NOT mean writing off their transgressions, it just means looking for things to be thankful for.
And at the end of each day to focus for a moment on the best thing that happened that day.
I do remember one friend of mine saying that sometimes at the end of the day this just meant being grateful that the day was over....
It's sort of like what RCR writes about developing trust where it has been shattered -- such as trusting that our spouses will bring back the children at the agreed time. One little thing.
And we are often reminded here to be grateful for what they DO do, rather than bemoan what they don't.
I am by no means advocating being grateful for monster, or for being thrown out of our homes, or for any of the horrible things that happen with a spouse in MLC, and I'm definitely not trying to be Pollyanna and only seeing silver linings, but the gratitude idea is very valid.
I'm sure the first thing that some will say is that we can be grateful for the opportunity to find ourselves, and I'm sure even more will come back and say "I didn't think I was lost!". I certainly know that feeling!
Just food for thought.
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Thank you for sharing that T&L.
It is something that I also have read about on a few occasions.
Louise Hay was one of them. Can't remember which book of hers it was in, but it goes along with the thinking that what you concentrate on, you get more of. So, instead of concentrating on the negative, and getting more of that, concentrate on the positive.
When I first read it - all I could think of was - I can't do that! I can't stop thinking about these awful things that are happening.
But I do think it is a process, and for me, something very much shifted around the two year mark.
What Louise suggests you do is say ' I thank you and bless you with love and release you and let you go' (or words to that effect).
She said to try that with anything that you want out of your life, and see what happens.
I tried it about six months ago in regards to a few things, but the main one was the OW.
It felt very peculiar. And I didn't even believe my words. I tried it for a while and then forgot about it.
I remembered a couple of weeks ago again, and am in a different place, and could ALMOST believe it when I said it this time. (I did say almost ;D ).
Things are progressing in my situation, ever so slowly, and I guess I'll never know if this made a difference or not, but anything is worth a try, and if nothing else, it does make me feel a bit better.
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Trust and Love,
You raise a good point. I can see how you could tie forgiveness and gratitude together...but you can have one without the other.
My parents were very adamant about being grateful and taught us this from the start. Grateful for what we had, polite and appreciative when people were good to us. I can't recall many days when I didn't thank my husband for his efforts regardless of what they were. I thanked him for doing this or that and I thanked him for being a great husband. It was drilled into me to do so and I felt good doing it as well. I never once took him for granted and he will tell you this is the truth. Unfortunately, he didn't have the same lessons or maybe he forgot.
What I think is that one of the main components of an MLC is the absolute lack of gratitude. This is something I have said to my husband on many, many occassions and he has admitted it is so. Early on after bomb drop, I came across the issue of gratitude in a few articles, some that even included MLC issues. I first read that surveys of happy people found that one of the most important and most common attitudes was gratefulness. In further discussions with my husband, I would say to him "This MLC thing comes down to not wanting anything you have and wanting everything you don't. And that my friend, is a lack of gratitude." He couldn't disagree.
And that is when he admitted that if he lived in the Sudan for example, he's pretty sure he would never have had an MLC at all.
I am generally a happy person. I have some grudges, some anger, even some depression at times. And certainly heartbreak, anger and resentment if I'm to be honest regarding MLC. So though it may not sound like it (LOL) I actually am a happy person. And I believe that is wholly tied to my gratitude. I thank God every day for all that I have...and while H was in replay, I thanked God every day that H didn't do anything worse than he already had.
I do believe it is a very important part of life and I've yet to hear of an MLCer that sounds to me like they "get" the gratitude issue.
I can see where you could tie forgivness to this and I have been able to apply alot of forgiveness to my husband because I truly am grateful we've made it this far. Not the OW though. Not sure I will even bother with her. But that won't prevent me from having gratitude overall nonetheless.
Bon
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Aargh! I had written a post, and the system logged me out! Should I say "thank you" for it keeping me from writing drivel? ;D
At any rate, I was going to say that I originally got the "thank you" thing from a book called "The Year of Living Biblically", by A J Jacobs. He spent a year trying to follow all the rules of the Bible literally. It's written as a humorous book, but he did say that he came out of it changed, and kept the admonition to say "thank you" for everything.....
I started with the small things, those become more automatic, then slowly add more.... like everything, it's in stages.
That was well said, Bon. And I don't disagree about being able to have "one without the other"; I guess I just decided to add this here rather than start a new thread. If anyone thinks it should be separate, I won't be at all offended!
It's nice to hear that your parents drilled the idea of gratitude into you; I'm trying to do that with my kids. Can't say I had it drilled into me, as I've had to learn.... and I do believe it's important.
I also note with interest what your H said about "if he lived in the Sudan"; mine once, in a brief moment of almost-clarity, said something similar....
x
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Oh, I don't think its inappropriate to tie in some of these really good qualities at all as they can all relate to one another. Now mastering them all is another story...lol! I'm good at one, not at the other...as is pretty obvious from all my posts I'm sure...lol.
That's great that you are doing that with your kids. My siblings children are great kids in most ways but they do tend to lack the gratitude thing which amazes me since it was so often talked about with my FOO. The kids rarely send "thank you's" nor even say thank you when you see them after giving them a gift. I blame their parents...there aren't many kids around who will willingly write a thank you note so its up to the parents to make sure these things are done in some way. Its interesting...
Now forgiveness? Not something that was talked about much in my household. We went to church every Sunday so maybe my parents figured the subject was covered there. Who knows.
I'm glad to hear another MLCer admit the same thing. My husband has said it often, even while in deep replay. That's one of the few sane things to come out of his mouth in that period. ::) But it also gave me hope to hear it...to know that somewhere in that replaying mind was a sane person who deep down inside knew what he had.
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Thanks, Bon...
but just to clarify, my H hadn't really admitted that he was having an MLC; during that conversation he did use the phrase in a jokey way, which is the closest he came to it. While saying something about something he was worried about, he made a reference to what the previous generation might have worried about, which of course was food and shelter, given that they had the spectre of war in their background....
This was a couple of years ago, and my H isn't any closer to coming out of the tunnel, really. Perhaps he was closer then, actually.
But the idea of gratitude, and forgiveness, still applies, regardless.
x
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T&L,
Even as a hint or joke, that seems to me some clarity is tucked away in his head. And that can only be a good thing in the long run.
Hang in there!
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I believe that eventually, whether we notice it or not, that true forgiveness will happen... it could be by words, or by our actions. Even if we think of ourselves as the type that couldn't do it. Time is what's going to make this possible. The Pure Essence of Forgiveness comes from the heart and mind, it is not done out of obligation, or fear. Religion, the law of the land, or society can only show us the right thing to do but in the end, every individual will feel when true forgiveness occurs.