Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: superdog on June 05, 2012, 05:31:04 AM
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Hi, just interested how long h's or w's have been in escape and avoid or replay. Maybe by type would be good to know. Its interesting to see.
My h is low energy wallower with lots of overt depression throughout but can come in and out with ecape + avoid behaviour. Has monster outbursts.
3 years and is just moving out now.
Will stand a little bit longer and see.
Sd x
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Hi 3 years seems to be a common theme for some movement that I have read here and from what I have heard from others.
My h has been in replay, ie BD 21 months although I think he was depressed and withdrawn a good 8 months previous if not longer. I can't believe I have to go at least another year before he starts even to come out of this process. I am seeing no monster lately and I will ignore it anyway. Only just got him to hear him say that he wants to give maintenance to the boys which is new but he is still selfish in lots of other ways.
I still am trying to get on with my life and it is hard and I'm sure one day I will look back and thank him as this time is making me stronger, at the moment he gets no thanks of mine. X
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H is coming out of Replay and we are Reconnecting. It has been 22 months. It is a little short in the Replay range but may be due to his age.....65. Replay as in heavy drinking started several months before BD.
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Four months since BD and the day he left me. However he had been cycling down with depression, anxiety and low self esteem since maybe the previous fall. I am still devastated and worry that he may never come out of it if he doesn't deal with his mental health issues. Definitely in replay as he is running...literally. He is on to his third destination in 4 months.
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Hmmm, not quite sure. BD was 17 months ago and my H immediately moved out and began living with OW. That's still the sitch.
However, he had been in an EA and then PA with her for 18 months prior to BD. Soooo, I guess the "official" number is 17 months but, in reality, he's been having an affair with OW for over three years.
We're very dim, no signs of movement. It's the middle I guess. And that's assuming he ever comes out!
TMHP
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Hi, I think strict replay, as in affair, seems to last about 2 years. That is based on what I know from other couples NOT on my web research or anything. Probably with affair replay, it is the time it takes for the 'gild to wear off the lily'--the newness & excitement of a new 'love' passes in 2 years.
For me bomb drop was a year ago, he moved out to apartment 7 months ago & I think moved in with OW 3 months ago [not sure of that & I'm not asking--that is one of my boundaries: I don't want to know anything about her or their life together].
My h started to be bitter and grumpy about 5 years ago now that I look back on it.
For what it is worth. I am still groping in the dark for answers.
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I'm at the 32 month mark since BD..........approaching the 3rd year of this mess. My exH was high energy for the first 6 to 8 months. Went through two OW's fairly quick. There doesn't seem to be another one but then again I don't know for sure. He spiraled out of control for the first year and a half........or so. Failed suicide attempt in the 21st month. He's been through lots of therapy and on AD's. Recently, he had another severe bout of depression, went to his doctor and put back on the AD's. Doesn't seem to be as bad as earlier on even though he is still adamant about not returning or trying to reconnect........even though at times he has made contact.......ever so briefly. He is dealing with the backlash of the financial damage he caused..........nearly in financial ruin. Owes more than he ever has......struggles with this daily. Last email from him he expressed his lack of enjoyment in anything.......can't shake his depression no matter how hard he tries.
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Not sure about the type... Mine started as clinging boomerang, then boomerang and become a vanisher about 4 years ago.
5.8 years since BD. Weird behaviour started late 2005 early 2006. Become much worst in Summer 2006.
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My partner dropped the first bomb (we are done, was was never coming back to me) 20 months ago. Found out about the ow 14 months ago. Seems to be getting darker, no contact at all. If I look back, he started hanging off the edge of the bed a LONG time ago, years before official bomb drop. Could never get him to explain what was wrong, really hurt, destroyed my self esteem..
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I have a low energy wallower. He is 38+ months post BD, with definite replay activities beginning several months before then. I have recently seen an increase in replay behaviors again. It seems to me he has had to increase his activity to avoid thinking.
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My H had been different- moody, irritable, angry with situations that he didn't like for 3 years after we moved to another sate for his career. BD was Jan2012- first made contact, we called and emailed, went to dinner occasionally. He talked about how he was fixing up his apartment, going to the gym daily, golfing and biking on weekends (never did that when at home). Talked incessantly how much better his health was and that there was no more anxiety. Then little by little all communication came to a screeching halt. Nothing. I call, text, email- all is ignored. He filed in April- haven't heard a word one way or the other. It all sucks.
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I think my H was in replay for about two years...he was low energy and never left home.
We are in reconnection, he is in acceptance and currently revisiting the stages in that sort of low key, mini way they do at this stage.
With that said, I'm very sure now he was in MLC long, long, long before I realized. For a long time I thought that it started in 2008 without me realizing it (BD was in July, 2009 and replay started a few months before that). But now, with all this hindsight, I think his MLC started long before 2008...it was just so mild I could not have known.
Bon
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With that said, I'm very sure now he was in MLC long, long, long before I realized. For a long time I thought that it started in 2008 without me realizing it (BD was in July, 2009 and replay started a few months before that). But now, with all this hindsight, I think his MLC started long before 2008...it was just so mild I could not have known.
I wonder how many were in MLC but we didn't know at first or understand. In looking back the last year or so events I think he was in MLC all of last year and now the break. It wasn't until I read about this to fully understand why he was acting the way he was this last year. who knows.
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Ok my BD will be 39 months tomorrow.
I have a clinging boomerang but he's in definite REPLAY !!!! Not sure how long it's going to last :-\ :-\ :-\ Moved home 5 wks ago today for the 4th time but has seen OW for the past 4 weekends. I don't think my H was in MLC long before the BD........ maybe a few months, if he was he hid it well !!!
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I wonder how many were in MLC but we didn't know at first or understand.
FindingJoJo, I think this is pretty common. I know that I didn't see signs of it until hindsight after BD and after learning about MLC. Looking back, I can see that something was different in him for probably at least a year pre-BD. It was very subtle for months, something that I couldn't quite put my finger on. My H started detaching from the family that whole time and I didn't see it until hindsight. MLC festers under the surface, creeping in, and we don't see it until it explodes usually.
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Even thought what I think was the trigger was a few years before BD, I think he was actually in it for a very short time before BD, a few months maybe. But it has now been years, and he has gone back to the beginning at least 4 times, changing OW each time. So he's never been in any one situation long enough for it to become real.
I've thought several times during this that ok, now he's made some decisions, and so on, and have been wrong every time. Even just recently I thought he was being rational, etc., and was pretty shocked to discover that no, he's STILL avoiding. He's thought nothing through. It's been 5 years since BD.
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In my case, BD was September 2008, but I lost my mother in 2004 and that was the trigger according to me and my father. He is still in replay, almost 4 years later with no end in sight. So, it will be almost 8 years! I have a vanisher with hardly no contact and only through email from time to time. I have no clue about the stages he visits etc.
Kie
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It's funny how we can all see now where it started.
In 2008 we bought my H a Mr. Men t shirt which was Mr. Grumpy ! and he was like that from probably the year before. So if it's true to form then my H started this 5 years ago at age 39. BD was June 2009. Lots of things have slowed this down for him. He's low energy, avoidant personality, he stayed home which meant cycling from me and ultimately pressure and conflict. He's getting to the end of replay now, maybe been in limbo the last 9 months with returns to replay thrown in.
I think my h's trigger was after i had the twins in 2003 I nearly lost my life to post-eclampsia and it was him that "saved" me that night. It was PTSD i think which again he never dealt with. He cried during a job interview when he recalled the event, that was last year. After i read Jed Diamond's article about why men leave I totally associated this. My h thought he had lost his "mommy" and probably realised how dependant he was.
very interesting reading everyone's story.
sd x
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Hi,
My exh is a vanisher and we have had limited correspondence via email since he left in April 2010 so I have no idea where he is at on his journey. I do pray he is at least progressing through the tunnel. BD was 2/5/10.
ODAAT
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Thanks Trusting - I think mine started that year before too - but I surely didn't know anything about MLC until he didn't come home. I am sure he is feeling like wow the stress is gone, but who wouldn't when you just let the wife take care of the bills. I haven't talked to him in 3 weeks and in that time I have focused on myself which is all I can do. I don't feel too bad though because all the family members he listened to who encouraged it he also cut off the week before me. So pretty much he is isolating himself, surrounding him with new friends and only her family. I just have faith in GOD that he will recover and pray for it.
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26 months since BD. I think she is going through om withdrawal right now. Who knows. I think the fact that they are very far apart has kept the fantasy going for both.
However, like everything else, it is losing its luster. However, I am going to let you know, it is not easy. Now she is just reflecting on living on her own. More quiet, does not go out much, and is nonchalent about most things that are going on around us.
She watches a lot, no I mean a lot of TV!
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I think the first faint rumblings of my exH's MLC was in late 2000 - we had lived and worked in London for the previous 10 years and he had a very sudden desire to move back North so 'my kids know their grandparents and cousins' -we moved back to the North of England in June 2001 and our daughter was born in July 2001.
My exH's paternal Grandma died in October 2008, he reconnected with his exGF in November 2008 and I confirmed his affair on our 14th wedding anniversary on September 30th 2009 - he left the next day.
Looking back he was increasingly angry and aggressive for the 4 years up till BD - our 10th wedding anniversary party was blighted with him screaming at me and demanding a divorce the night before. I thought we were working things through .......and that life was going to be tough for us as we had two small children, both worked full-time etc.
His MLC rumbled below the surface, erupting occasionally and then kaboom he had the power and the evidence he needed to leave. He has been consistently angry since he left and very clear that this is his chance of happiness, he deserves it and he's going to go for it.
He looks shocking, he has his dead shark eyes and despite appearances to the contrary, my well trained eye sees no change in how he handles life's problems or conflict and it is still all about him. Classic covert depressive as looks smart, together and functioning.
Lost for a long time in my view - perhaps never to return.
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Well, BD was 2 years ago....
I know that he was in contact with his ex-wife sometime during 2009....went to visit her in August of 2009.
Our oldest graduated from high school in 2008.....she was his favorite....he took it kind of hard when she went away to college....
He had a heart attack in 2006....not sure which of these was the "trigger" although he did admit that he "changed" after the heart attack. That he was no longer the same person.
Replay has been 2 years.....probably longer.
L
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I really do not know for sure how long he was MLC before the bomb dropped as it is now a blurr. I know he says he had a affair with OW for four years before he dropped the bomb. He told me about 8 months before that he did not love me anymore. I really only felt something was wrong for about a year. He seemed to withdraw, both sexually and emotionally. He became more and more distant. I guess , even though he lied about most things, I will believe him that it was for 4 years BEFORE the bomb, we are now at the 2 year mark of me finding out about OW and almost a month later he moved out and has not returned. He phones drunk occasionally and has been with many women (he is in Thailand , where women search for Western men ) He is now with OW #1, again, who seems to be his most important OW. They fight quite a bit (she was a prostitute and is from Thailand)
He is still in escape and replay. I see no signs of him coming home although I seem to be waiting. He now chats with 2 of 3 daughters. I guess he has been a MLcer for at least 6 years. He will be 60 years old in the fall.
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My bomb drop was 8 months ago. It is hard to say when his MLC began as he has had intermittent alcoholism and depression issues for decades. OW#1 has popped into and out of our lives during both of my pregnancies, as my husband has a buddy who worked very hard to enable their long distance relationship. However it is now clear to me that my husband planned bomb drop with some forethought. How Long? Minimum I would say 5 months, but more likely I believe it was 13 months.
My husband appears slightly calmer now than he was at bomb drop. At the time he was almost manic and frantic. I have no idea where he stands with OW1 who is well known for multiple unstable relationships. There are two other possibilities for OW and I don't know, nor do I want to, where those stand at this point. What I do know is that my husband doesn't really act like someone is taking care of him....he often appears dishevelled, unkempt, hasn't eaten.
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My BD was 16 months ago, but I think this started a long time ago really. In 2003, my H moved to another state for a job and for almost 6 months we were separated because I was letting the kids finish school and trying to sell our house and get a job here. Well in the last month, he told me he wasn't sure he wanted to be married. I moved with the kids a month later and he seemed fine, said he just missed us....hmmm.... I found out that from 2006-2009 he was having a phone/text relationship with a former co-worker from his old job who lived in a different state. Then BD in 3/11 and then I discovered OW in June 11. We separated from June-Sept. 11, he came home, said he left that OW. By Dec. 2011, gone again, now been gone for 7 months today. I believe it is a different OW or more than one. They all work for him though and I don't really know the nature of any of these OW relationships at this point. He contacts very infrequently despite us having 3 kids, one who is 16. So I think the beginnings of this may have started in 2003. He always feared getting older. I thought it was not serious about him turning 50. (He is now 51) It was serious, more than I could have ever dreamed.
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Hi I would like to hear from the LBS who have MLC'ers who are more than 6 years out from BD. How old is your MLCer now? What are you seeing? Is replay winding down? How many years out did you start to see changes and what changes have you seen?
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long journey,,I've merged your thread with a similar one we had.
My MLCers is now 46. He was 36 when he left. He is still in Replay. I don't see much, if any changes. But I do not see him in real life nor do I talk to him. I have indirect view through Facebook, the media (Mr J has a public life), or if someone mentions something about him (these days very rare).
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Bomb drop will be 5 years this Thanksgiving Sunday. He ran just after the New Year.
Seen depression and rock bottom looming many times. He still manages to climb out of his hole and keep running.
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My BD was Sept 2009 but I suspect he was in MLC for a good year before the BD. I rarely see him but what communication we do have, he seems to have changed. It all changed when his father was quite ill and dying a few months ago. I coached him through withdrawing his father's life support ( I am a critical care nurse in the Intensive care unit) and during that time and since then he has been his old self; friendly, funny, and nice. He lives with his girlfriend that he's had for a couple of years so I don't' know if he is done cooking or still in the tunnel. I am recently remarried so I really don't care either way.
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I'm one of the longest ones here; my BD was in 2007. I think he left very near the beginning of his crisis, it was only really confusing about 9 months before he left; others report years and years of difficult behaviour. I do know that some triggers happened in the few years leading up to it all, but I think he only went into full crisis in the year before BD.
I've seen much cycling; he's come to me between OWs (he's on no. 6); he only now divorced me, having started proceedings 4 years ago. He has come to me when he has been in complete despair, only to go again.
Last year he really did seem to be turning back into himself, he was more open, more engaged with the children, all that, then latest OW turned up and off he went again, and I got monster again.
Initial manic replay lasted only about 3.5 years, but he appears to keep going back to the beginning, probably every time he becomes infatuated with a new OW. And when things go bad elsewhere in his life is when I get the monster, I think.
I never know what I am going to get if I do speak to him. He does contact the (now grown) children, but isn't really involved in their lives.
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My W began acting out of character in late 2008/ early 2009. I could sense her distancing herself. In July 2010, she admitted to a one night affair with someone she met in a hotel restaurant while travelling for business. She couldn't explain why she did it - said that she felt she was in a movie and watching herself as if from a third party. She was very remorseful and agreed to counselling (MC and IC). She has always been a conflict avoider and reluctant to express her feelings. During her time in counselling I discovered things from her childhood that I didn't know and which would explain why she ended up in a MLC.
BD was in November 2011. Another one night stand with another man she picked up at a conference. This time a new person emerged. Monster all over. No remorse. There was a selfish, narcissist in front of me. She just wanted out; tired of being a wife. She wanted "freedom without responsibility before she turned into an old lady."
She is still in reply - everything is still all about her. There have been several alienators. The current one has been with her for about 3.5 years although I don't think they have a monogamous relationship. No signs of any significant progress on the outside. She wears a mask although when things go wrong, she does reach out to me - like when she had a breast cancer scare, or when her mother was in the hospital. I limit my interactions with her as it still pangs me to interact with her. I do miss the person who was once there, but I want nothing to do with the person who is there now.
I don't think her shinny, new life is everything she dreamed. Like the song says, "is this what you wanted?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sxDpnrWSUo
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I'm six years out. Ex hooked up with his now wife in summer of 2009, after our 9yo had a crazy cancer scare. He said he deserved an easier life... So he left to be with OW and her two ADHD/autistic boys. At this very moment, they are all on vacay at the family summer home in Maine with all four of exH's kids, all four of his MLC brother's four kids, two old, two new--his new wife is the same age as exH's wife and their boys are also the same age. Both brothers went into MLC at the very same age their father almost left to marry his secretary, but exMIL I think beat the $HIT out of him and he stayed...
My ex is still in the tunnel. He was never a high energy replay kind of guy, he just cut out me and inserted OW into my place. He and his bro did exactly the same thing. Act like everything is just the same with their upgraded wives, who are actually taller, thinner, younger, slightly better educated versions of their ex-wives--exactly what their mother wanted! He is celebrating his five-year anniversary right now, and all seems well in his world, though no one who knows him says he is happy... I am! My kids are getting better.... Love and light, ll
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7 years - Bomb drop May 2009,
All is good for me, her who knows?
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I'm 5 months shy of 6 years. Hard to believe.
Still some depression, little selfishness but much better.
Actually after saying that, he has been more depressed this past week, but... still better.
No more replay activities.
We've been divorced about 3 years, live separately but get along good.
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My 6 year BD was this week actually. We divorced 5 years ago. I see him 3-4 times a week to custody swap our now 12 year old D. We have another older D and I have an older S from a previous marriage. I moved out of the marital home in October 2011, where he still lives with D22, and bought my own house (I did run off with most of the marital household goods :)). A couple of years ago he moved the OW into the rental apartment over the garage. I'm at that house 1-2 times a week to drop off/ pick up D12. I have in all this time seen OW 3 times. D22 has put her foot down and said she is not allowed in the main house. Too funny. As far as exH, I have no idea what is going on in his head, nor do I really care. As long as the support gets paid I'm all good. My kids seem fine and truthfully my lifestyle is completely different. I take better care of myself and kept off most of the weight I lost on the LBS diet. I don't date and I am not interested in pursuing it either. I do stay active in other ways. I have a job, a house to maintain and a child to take care of. I take advantage of fun stuff as it comes up and as I can afford it. Life is good.
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I wonder how many were in MLC but we didn't know at first or understand.
FindingJoJo, I think this is pretty common. I know that I didn't see signs of it until hindsight after BD and after learning about MLC. Looking back, I can see that something was different in him for probably at least a year pre-BD. It was very subtle for months, something that I couldn't quite put my finger on. My H started detaching from the family that whole time and I didn't see it until hindsight. MLC festers under the surface, creeping in, and we don't see it until it explodes usually.
Exactly.
BD was 7 years ago this August. I couldn't tell you the type or what she's up to. SO GLAD I MOVED ON. Kids are doing well. Business is good. I really liked the last special lady friend but it didn't work out. A+ girl all the way, but she just couldn't get over the previously married with kids thing. Understandable. Her loss, though. Current special lady friend is great, but it's not quite right. It's early, we will see.
Life is short guys. Don't hang on too long.
Doc
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My W began acting out of character in late 2008/ early 2009. I could sense her distancing herself. In July 2010, she admitted to a one night affair with someone she met in a hotel restaurant while travelling for business. She couldn't explain why she did it - said that she felt she was in a movie and watching herself as if from a third party. She was very remorseful and agreed to counselling (MC and IC). She has always been a conflict avoider and reluctant to express her feelings. During her time in counselling I discovered things from her childhood that I didn't know and which would explain why she ended up in a MLC.
BD was in November 2011. Another one night stand with another man she picked up at a conference. This time a new person emerged. Monster all over. No remorse. There was a selfish, narcissist in front of me. She just wanted out; tired of being a wife. She wanted "freedom without responsibility before she turned into an old lady."
She is still in reply - everything is still all about her. There have been several alienators. The current one has been with her for about 3.5 years although I don't think they have a monogamous relationship. No signs of any significant progress on the outside. She wears a mask although when things go wrong, she does reach out to me - like when she had a breast cancer scare, or when her mother was in the hospital. I limit my interactions with her as it still pangs me to interact with her. I do miss the person who was once there, but I want nothing to do with the person who is there now.
I don't think her shinny, new life is everything she dreamed. Like the song says, "is this what you wanted?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sxDpnrWSUo
It's the complete lack of remorse that's truly breathtaking. The consensus viewpoint notwithstanding, they don't CHANGE. They were always that way underneath. They just give up on trying to hide or bury it. Asking them to come back is a joke to them. They can't pretend for one day longer and the thought of trying is unbearable. Some do come back and those that do are just wearing the mask again. Does anyone really want that?
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Class of 2011 checking in here.
The consensus viewpoint notwithstanding, they don't CHANGE. They were always that way underneath. They just give up on trying to hide or bury it. Asking them to come back is a joke to them. They can't pretend for one day longer and the thought of trying is unbearable. Some do come back and those that do are just wearing the mask again. Does anyone really want that?
Sorry Doc but I completely disagree with your comments above.Maybe your statements are true for you and your situation but certainly not for all.I am one of those whose spouse came back and whose crisis is now a horrid memory.She is certainly not just "wearing the mask again" and she wasn't just pretending to be someone she wasn't for the 20+ years we shared together pre-BD.No way on Earth was she that good of an actress for decades.She was a wonderful,classy lady pre-crisis and has found herself again post-crisis.Did she go off the rails?Hell yeah…and then some!!That's why its called MLC and not fake-personality-for-decades and it's why I went searching to find out what had happened that made her go crazy almost overnight.Thank goodness for Hero's Spouse! :)
“The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger--but recognize the opportunity.” -John F.Kennedy
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BD Jan 2009, but strange behaviour at the appearance of OW on the scene a year earlier. Looking back, his angst at being stuck in a job, marriage and kids started long before. I believe now he always had issues unresolved from different points in his life, but a big trigger was when he had to pick up his father's body from where he had been assassinated and left in an unmarked grave overseas.
He is deeply a distancer, avoidant, hermit-like, with perfectionist and narcissistic tendencies. He can't handle intimacy, or being wrong, or saying sorry, or taking on someone else's point of view.
He's been home for 5 years? I've lost count. When I thought it was over, it wasn't.
I virtually BDd him yesterday. Told him he doesn't need a wife, he can't handle intimacy, so he should go. He swings between clinging and blaming, but can't handle the truth.
I thought (hoped) we were reconnecting, but we can't until he takes on someone else's point of view. So here I am, 7 years and counting.
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Hi there, I hardly ever come on here anymore. Not standing anymore (XH has a child with OW/new partner, and for me that is a dealbreaker for EVER reconciling, as I think it would simply do more damage to everyone involved, including S10). My BD was May 2013, D through last July, but there had been lots of repressed anger for a couple of years prior, up and down.
I have moved on, including seeing a new partner and have learnt the lesson of taking things slowly in a relationship and to not give up myself in a relationship.
In accordnance with the timeline, a lot of things could still happen with my XH - but to me, it doesn't really matter so much. I just want him to be a good father to both of his children, and find a way of living his life that does not hurt others (or himself, really).
Is he happy? I honestly don't know!! He's certainly not doing well financially (out of work but with some freelance work), and him and the new partner moved from one temporary flat to another, which I imagine being stressful, especially with the new baby. I have no idea whether this affects the relationship with the new partner (OW), but I know it is likely to, at least after a while. While I sometimes wish he will eventually 'see' and 'confess' it was a mistake to leave me in the first place, I care less and less - and really, it would be much better for both children if they managed to build a good relationship. The last thing S needs to live through is a second separation. He also likes his new stepmum (which she now has become, whether I like it or not), which also gives me no reason to want them to split up. I can't say I wish them to be happy for their sake - but for the children it would certainly be best. My life is actually better than it has ever been - no exaggeration. I have a good job, larger social network than pre-BD, closer relationship with S (yet more time to myself, as S is older and spends time with his dad), I have grown a lot in my new relationship and as a result of the mirror work I did while still standing and after and become more confident, grounded and started to like myself a lot more. Not that life is perfect - it has its ups and downs - but I have become more mature and well equipped to deal with it. I turned 40 a few months ago, and feel very hopeful about this new phase of my life.
Hugs & strength, Gimlan x
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I don't understand why you are apologizing for giving your opinion. I understand that you need to believe what you do. The alternative would mean that you are living a lie... Yet again.
Doc
Sorry Doc but I completely disagree with your comments above.Maybe your statements are true for you and your situation but certainly not for all.I am one of those whose spouse came back and whose crisis is now a horrid memory.She is certainly not just "wearing the mask again" and she wasn't just pretending to be someone she wasn't for the 20+ years we shared together pre-BD.No way on Earth was she that good of an actress for decades.She was a wonderful,classy lady pre-crisis and has found herself again post-crisis.Did she go off the rails?Hell yeah…and then some!!That's why its called MLC and not fake-personality-for-decades and it's why I went searching to find out what had happened that made her go crazy almost overnight.Thank goodness for Hero's Spouse! :)
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Doc, I also do not agree that they were always like this underneath. I knew my H for almost 20 years pre-MLC. He was nothing like his MLC self.
BD was spring of 2009 for me, though definite replay and MLC behavior since fall of 2008. Still running. He was 36 at BD and 44 now. FOO issues are evident. What a shame - waste a very good man.
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Doc, I also do not agree that they were always like this underneath. I knew my H for almost 20 years pre-MLC. He was nothing like his MLC self.
BD was spring of 2009 for me, though definite replay and MLC behavior since fall of 2008. Still running. He was 36 at BD and 44 now. FOO issues are evident. What a shame - waste a very good man.
20 years on one side of the scale - 8 years and counting on the other. And you're convinced that you're right? That's incredible to me. By that logic, a Catholic priest who serves God for 20 years and then molests children for 8 years and counting is NOT a pederast. Fascinating. So, would you leave a small child alone with such a person because of the 20 years? Would you defend him like you just defended your XH? I should hope not.
Doc
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Doc, I also do not agree that they were always like this underneath. I knew my H for almost 20 years pre-MLC. He was nothing like his MLC self.
BD was spring of 2009 for me, though definite replay and MLC behavior since fall of 2008. Still running. He was 36 at BD and 44 now. FOO issues are evident. What a shame - waste a very good man.
20 years on one side of the scale - 8 years and counting on the other. And you're convinced that you're right? That's incredible to me. By that logic, a Catholic priest who serves God for 20 years and then molests children for 8 years and counting is NOT a pederast. Fascinating. So, would you leave a small child alone with such a person because of the 20 years? Would you defend him like you just defended your XH? I should hope not.
Doc
Do you believe in MCL?
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No, but I do believe that someone who is mentally ill can fake it for only so long. And then they just throw in the towel and it's ALL over. It's cRaZy time. So much self denial that is FINALLY unleashed all at once. They are finally free to be the unabated lunatic that they always were. And ANYONE that tries to get them to stop and pretend again is the ENEMY.
Just move on as soon as possible. They never loved you. They never will. But someone else who can is out there waiting for you. You WILL be a better person from this if you chose to be.
Doc
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Hi Doc, I agree with you that there is no one thing called MLC.
On the other hand, there are many crises, with multiple causes. Yes, some can be PDs, which can be mild or severe, and which causes the mask to slip after a while.
But there are many types of crisis, many causes, many solutions. If our spouse has a severe PD, they're unlikely to change and we're certainly not going to be able to fix them and should move on.
But sometimes these crises are temporary, and not based on pathological conditions. We have to gain insight into what's happening while following the essential wisdom of this sight; detach, work on ourselves and get a life.
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Just move on as soon as possible. They never loved you. They never will. But someone else who can is out there waiting for you. You WILL be a better person from this if you chose to be.
Doc
Hi Doc,
Didn't expect to see you posting on here again. (I have to remind myself of what OP says about "expectations.") ;)
They never loved you....they never will. Wow. Pretty harsh. I certainly wouldn't want to believe that I spent 30 years with someone who "never loved me" and "never will."
In thinking about that....the last 6 years have shown me that "never will" is most likely accurate. It doesn't appear that he has remorse or misses me in the least. (It is honestly difficult to say, as I have no contact with him). I believe this to be true, though.
As for "never loved me" - Wow....sure don't want to believe that. But, I have to admit that my Ex always had some issue - alcoholism, drug addiction, spending issues, and lots of lies, lies, lies. Looking back with the rose colored glasses off - all I can see is a messed up little boy who, most likely, had no capacity to love anyone.
As for "But someone else who can is out there waiting for you." - I sure hope so!
I am no longer Standing....not sure when I stopped...it just faded away.
Do I believe in MLC? I do...yet, after all this time - it no longer seems to be a crisis to me....just the manner in which he chooses to live his life.
Nice seeing you post!
L
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As for "never loved me" - Wow....sure don't want to believe that.
I challenge those who say this to post a wedding picture of their spouse showing them unhappy.
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I challenge those who say this to post a wedding picture of their spouse showing them unhappy.
Thanks for this. I just pictured my favorite wedding photo - never seen my H look as happy as he did in that picture. Of course, now I'm in tears...
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Hi Limitless,
Just thought I'd stop by and see if the lights were still on. I'm not sure what prompted me to do so. Might have been catching up with an old friend who witnessed the meltdown.
I am so much better off now than with her. Spiritually, physically and FINANCIALLY. No more being sabotaged. No more feelings of distrust. I've learned so many things by all of this. This site, among others, both helped and hurt. I healed but I lingered too long. All the pain is gone, though. I see what happened for what it is and there are no more answers that I need. I'm good now and I have been for some time. I don't think that I'll come back here again, but who knows? If I do, I hope not to see you guys here. My hope is that all of this will be a distant memory to you while you live your life to the fullest. Take care.
Doc
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I have to say I agree with Doc. What is happy? We can all look back at pictures where people SEEM happy. I have pictures of myself that look happy, but I can tell you, in no uncertain terms, in that moment, I was NOT... Was I happy in my life, at the time, maybe, I am not sure...
But in line with RCR asking about our understanding of her articles and MLC, and this site, I think MLC is an identity crisis precipitated by another life crisis, perhaps exacerbated by chemical issues, but absolutely no imbalance or brain disorder is the root cause (in other words, I do not believe there will ever be a medical cure for MLC), just an unfortunate contributor.
I believe every single person who is left must carefully examine what that means. I do not believe a person who TRULY loves another can just leave, especially not for an OP. The ability to transfer that "love," loyalty, or any other positive emotion anyone believes they possess is just not possible if it truly exists. And I think that means it never did. Will it? Remains to be seen.
If you have not yet seen the movie Demolition, see it. I think it is a great dramatic adaptation of a person having a quarter life crisis with the freedom to act out gloriously. If you look at other studies of people and motivation and personality and emotion, it all lines up. Research says that only 25% of the workforce is driven by a purpose, the rest are there for a paycheck. Some of those people do find purpose outside work, some possibly in their families, but what percentage of people are simply surviving through life, with no real purpose or reason. And how many of them are jolted into reality at midlife by some traumatic (even if only slight) event that forces them to examine WTF they are here for.
I think a lot of people don't understand love. Love comes from embracing your dark side, admitting vulnerability and allowing another to share and protect, and help you grow. Love is a very scary thing and a lot of people can't go there. There are more irrelationships in the world than there are relationships, and most of us are afraid to admit it, even to ourselves. I KNOW now, that while many people would have said I had the perfect relationship and family, that my exH did not love. He did not really love me, or his kids, he can't, or won't, I am not sure which, as I was never really privy to that part of him.
But, I do know I found several men who truly APPRECIATED me once I started dating, post D, and that was an amazing thing. And then I found a man who loves me, which is almost surreal, after 20 years of THINKING I was loved, to be loved, is an awe-inspiring experience, every day. And while R might still even be a logistical possibility, I could only be with someone who truly loves me and appreciates me for who I am right now, and is able to give me a real intimate relationship.
And in that is the kicker. What I went through for the last ten years has been hell, and he missed ALL of that, even when he was here, he didn’t go through it with me, he went through it next to me. And then he is responsible for the seismic shifts that occurred when he lost the plot. My new husband admires the person I am because of what I went through, could my exH ever do that, knowing he caused it?
And also, I don’t think relationships are work, but they are a skill, and some people are naturally more gifted at them, but we all require practice and you learn from every relationship you have, friends, co-workers, and partners. And the more you have the better you get. What I have in my second marriage is nothing like my first. My MLCer couldn’t talk about anything hard, especially not if it got anywhere near his shadow. But now, in a second M, we are forced to talk about the fact that most of the time, I hate his D, but I have to work through that and let the better angels of my nature love her because of who she is to him. And we both have to talk about what happens if things never get better between us, or if any of our other kids fall apart.
We have had to deal with money, and futures, and negotiate all aspects of our relationship in a way exH and I never did. And we have to decide, every day, to love each other in spite of the differences and the hard parts. This is what I think MLCers whose LBSs end up here never could do. And that’s why they left. There are people who have MLCs who do not leave their spouses. There are some who disown their FOO, some who abandon their careers, and some who find religion. So, why do some leave their spouse, and some leave their spouse and kids—for another spouse and kids. If it is that easy, what does that mean?
And when you consider who they are hooking up with, how much growing are they actually doing on their “break?” We are forced to clean up the devastation, pick up our kids and reassemble lives, but they simply sink into a convenient abyss. They do not come back uncooked, they come back in a more broken state than when they left, possibly 3, but more likely 7 or ten years later. I admire anyone who is willing to stand that long and take on the responsibility of nurturing that partner to the place where you have now grown, and, of course risking that the other person is even willing or able, I say props to you, and I wish I was that noble.
But if you have any doubts, I would encourage anyone to at least try dating and exercising those R muscles so that when your wayward MLCer returns, you have a better idea of what you actually want in a R, because I guarantee you, if it was so easy for them to find a replacement for you, you can find a lot of options you might like better, as well. I learned a lot from every man I dated, even the one-off’s (some of my lessons were hilarious, a few sad or scary, but still valuable…).
Despite the few happy R's on this forum, I think TRUE, happy Rs are almost as rare as unicorns. The strength needed for an MLCer to eat that humble pie is so huge compared to the cowardice it took to walk away. Growing that much is rare. That is why I would encourage every LBS to examine and think long and hard about the TRUE nature and character of their MLCer and not stand blindly, waiting, not living. Just my HO, but I do agree with Doc, for the most part... Love and light, ll
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Hi, as another old-timer I just want to chime in on MLC.
Do I believe in MLC? Absolutely. My MLCer followed script perfectly, in every possible way. In the months before bomb drop he was secretive, lied constantly, stared at himself in the mirror, hated his job, and was terrified of ageing. He BD'd me, dumped his clothes and shoes, quit his job, ran off with an old flame, bought a red car, had a young OW as well, worked out obsessively in a gym, made unwise financial decisions, didn't pay his taxes or health insurance, and flaunted OW on facebook. I did not want a divorce, but I divorced him anyway as I feared what his bad decisions could do.
I do believe that in the cases who follow script MLC is biological otherwise they wouldn't all be so similar. The transformation from loving husband to raging monster was dramatic. The cruel things he said and the shark eyes cannot be explained by a normal state of mind. I vividly remember him reinterpreting things I said and did, and even him hearing things I had never said. It was a terrible shock, because I had spent my entire marriage desperately trying to please him, and now nothing I could possibly do could please him. He would simply reinterpret actions of love and kindness in an unfavorable light.
MLCers have this fixed belief in "starting over', that somehow if they start over with the right person they will be happier, more successful, more famous. They are running away from something deep inside. They don't just leave their spouses, instead they try to destroy their spouses as a precondition for their fantasy of a newer better life. They project all their inner anger onto the person who loves them the most.
However I don't believe MLC just happens to anyone. I do believe that most if not all MLCers are narcissists with an overwhelming fear of death and ageing. It is their way of running away from death.
The question that arises is to wait? or not to wait?
Wow this is a toughie. There are so many factors. It is hard to want to wait for someone who is saying how awful you are to everyone he knows. I would say that standing is not a simple question of making a decision. It is more complex than that...
To be honest I don't think that making a decision about whether or not to stand really changes anything.
Eventually the MLCers infatuation hormones will wear off, the replay will slow down, and the MLCer will realize that they have driven away the only persons on the planet who love them. The exciting unfamiliarity of the OW will now be offset by the differences in lifestyle and interests. The OW has gained her trophy, but once she has the trophy what is the challenge? What can the MLCer offer her once he has given up everything for her? He will start to think about his family.
At that time you will be older. If you are happy living alone or have made a connection with someone who is able to share your life you may no longer be available. However my overall impression is that even if you did not stand after a certain age it is not easy to find someone who can share all aspects of your life in the same way as your lifelong spouse did. Blending families and lifestyles is sometimes very successful in the long term, and sometimes not so much.
Even when replay ends and they awaken to all the harm they have done there is no guarantee that they will have the courage to try to fix what they have done. What remains is their shattered wounded family. Can they forever reject their loved ones? Some will, and some won't.
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That is a very good, succinct synopsis of the life cycle of MLC.
I wish it were that short in real life.
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That is a very good, succinct synopsis of the life cycle of MLC.
I wish it were that short in real life.
Wow! Text book! I agree... I wish it were all so clean cut.
Just a couple of things... Standing doesn't make a difference to them. It makes a difference to us. It's not to affect them, but a personal decision. I think it gives us hope, and meanwhile we get used to their changes and sometimes question our decision.
Secondly. You think it's biological because they are all so similar? And are all narcissists? Where's the evidence for narcissism? We all have narcissistic elements, and this increases when we want to achieve something. It doesn't mean we are top of the scale on NPD.
Also, not so similar... Not everyone has the same reaction, even if we are in crisis. I know of a few cases where the person in crisis took some time out, meditated, prayed, travelled, etc. And then returned home. Then there are high & low energy types, boomerangs and vanishers, those who have EA, PA, single or multiple affairs. Where self-image is a big issue, its a clear indication that identity is involved.
Yes, hormones, biology, neurology are inevitably involved, but not in the systematic way you describe. MLC has a cultural context. Second, if they feel stressed or unhappy with their life, this will increase cortisol and decrease serotonin. It's an organism reacting in a social environment rather than a independent brain implosion! It's not systemic in the human species ... We don't all have MLC, and don't react in the same way to stressors. Our emotional and social resources, individual needs and perceptions, identity and personality all play a part.
Biology is always affected by social context. A very basic example is of smiling. All babies in all cultures start smiling around the same age, according to their neurological development. But did you know that in some cultures babies smile more than others, irrespective of individual variations? On an individual level, nelegected infants smile much less. Then there are individual personality traits (in the neolimbic brain) which affect the frequency of smiling.
So... In conclusion. Even if our MLCers seem to be having an unhealthy reaction to life, it's essentially their individual reaction to their own life course, mediated by biological mechanisms, not a sudden biological illness that appears from nowhere. It is possible, and there have been cases here, where changing hormone levels have triggered behaviour changes. But it's not the only factor.
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Attaching
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Very good discussion.
Maybe not for newbies but for people who have been in this situation for a long time.
We all learn and grow so much. It's amazing.
Sharing what we have learned is important. Even if it helps just one person.
Thanks to all who have contributed! :)
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9 years and still counting,came back for 18 mths only to leave again.
On off with ow,lots of contact with me.
Finally married ow 2 years ago but didn't live with her the week he had our boys,still lots of contact with me.
Now moved 21/2 hours away ,hardly sees his kids ,very quiet with me,everybody who sees us together thinks we are happily married couple ,very
Shocked when they find out the truth.
9 years a long time to go through this ,he's not changed much in this time really
Lies,manipulation etc.perhaps he's one that won't ever come out of whatever this is.i the very beginning he was text book ,emotional,clinging,spoke of his head spinning,blatantly open about ow,even at one point asking me to pick clothes for him for a big night out with ow 2nd bd came the cold uncaring nasty episodes,very cruel.liked to inflict as much hurt as he could seemed to thrive on it.now things are quiet as he's hours away living a good life .
After 9 years still don't have any answers,just have to live your life as best you can,at first it's fake it till you make it ,after that you start doing it for real. As to wether any come back ,most don't and that's jmo it's hard but nothing we can do,except hold them in your heart ,live life.find your happiness and hope they find theirs .