Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: justasking on May 15, 2010, 06:25:57 AM
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There is information on all the stages of MLC 1-6 but little on the sub stages of awakening and reconnection. Does anyone have any insight into these two areas?
Thanks
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Justasking,
This is an excellent topic for discussion. I've been asked it by several people and one recently--two days ago. I am thus planning to write an article or series of articles for the newsletter on this.
But there is also a reason I have not focused on this and why I want it to be a very minor focus in my articles. Standers who are not ready for reconciliation will focus on that end result rather than on their present place. I think that it is good to know what is coming, but often what is coming is more MLC downward spiraling and too much focus on reconnection leads people to focus on that and get their hopes linked with expectations and set up for a crash. Standers with such a focus and hopes linked to expectation have a high fall rate.
That said, I am not meaning it is not a good topic to discuss. I meant what I said initially. This is an excellent topic and a discussion will help me in writing my formal articles, so I look forward to this.
Everyone....please chime in.
HUGS,
RCR
PS: I've set up this board a little differently than what most of you are used to regarding the topic icons. This is clearly a universal discussion thread. I changed the icon from the mirror which is about Self-Focus (my 2nd section of articles) to the Listening Heart which is for interactions with an MLCer (my 3rd section of articles). I changed the other new topics to the story book because they looked like they were meant to be those poster's personal story threads. The guidelines for this are in the sticky about Posting Guidelines at the top of the board. I expect this will take some time for people to catch on.
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Just so you know that I'm working on this, I am now going through my manuscript--400 pages--and searching separately for various reconnection keywords to see what I've already said. After that I will do the same thing with my Coaching Archives--over 1000 pages, but the documents are separated by years.
The Archives will probably have more than the manuscript.
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I look forward to reading your information when it arrives.
It is difficult for LBS who see these changes but don't know much about them but realise that it would be tempting to focus on the end result and get reconnection and touch and goes mixed up.
What we have to keep reminding ourselves is that while OW is still around he is in replay.
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Reconnection usually starts after replay ends. Anytime during replay it is probably just a touch and go. Reconnection is usually accomplished in reverse order of the when the bomb was dropped. IE the LBS is the last one to be reconnected. The MLC'er breaking withdrawl is when the true reconnection with the LBS should start. This should not be confused with OW/OM withdrawl (from an A)
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One of the most confusing things about reconnection is the difference between touch and go's and reconnection. For instance do touch and go's move into reconnection? Are they the building bricks for this next phase? If the OW is definately gone by acceptance then is it quite possible that she maybe there during reconnection as he tries to make his mind up.
Written down the difference is black and white. In practice I think it is much more confusing and not so black and white.
Awakening is more straight forward I think. As the WAH/WAW starts to wake up and we see flashes of the old spouse.
Clarity would be good.
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If the OW is definately gone by acceptance then is it quite possible that she maybe there during reconnection as he tries to make his mind up.
This is not right. If there is an OW/OM then the MLC'er is still in Replay, until they are gone they can not leave this stage.
Touch and Go's during Replay are moments of clarity for the MLC'er. They are still firmly in the tunnel and basically just peeking out during this time.
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I absolutely agree that they remain in replay while OW/OM is there.
But a number of stages can run together. Replay behaviour maybe diminishing but OW/OM remains. Often in the crisis the affair comes towards the end of replay not the beginning. With this in mind it stands to reason that the OW/OM may be the last to leave as he/she leaves withdrawal, starts reconnecting and goes into acceptance.
As the travel through 2 or 3 stages then replay may be the less dominant stage with depression, withdrawal or even anger showing itself more forceably.
For OW/OM to leave takes a huge amount of trust from the WAH/WAW. If the trust is not complete then the wayward spouse may hang on to the bitter end to make the decission.
My H is currently living with OW. His replay behaviour is diminishing. He is also in withdrawal and depression which fluctuates. If he is doing touch and goes with the children these are different from the early touch and goes. More sustained. More love being shown. Constant communication. Taking them on trips and holidays without OW.
I can feel the guilt and confusion in him as well as depression. He is not yet connecting with me but he chats, gives me good eye contact and we now go out as a family.
I just feel that saying that H is still in replay negates other positves that maybe going on as he moves along his tunnel. If he is still doing touch and go's then they are intense and this is the clarity I feel need.
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But a number of stages can run together.
Yes stages can run together or even repeat.Replay behaviour maybe diminishing but OW/OM remains. Often in the crisis the affair comes towards the end of replay not the beginning.
Beginning of the affair is normally the start of replay(or bomb drop)
My H is currently living with OW. His replay behaviour is diminishing. He is also in withdrawal and depression which fluctuates. If he is doing touch and goes with the children these are different from the early touch and goes. More sustained. More love being shown. Constant communication. Taking them on trips and holidays without OW.
They can bounce around between stages and back and forth.
IMHO your H is in Replay, but for what it is worth I would not worry about what "stage" he is in. Take the positives as a small gift from him.
Work on yourself. Be the best MOM that you can be. He still has a lot of baking to do before you can take him out of the oven!
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Now that is the confusing part because some information states that the affair maybe start in the middle or end of replay, the final fling if you like.
My H had changed his appearance, bought a motorbike, started mixing with younger people 18 months before accessing a dating site. It is only an assumption but the new cltes, friends and mode of transport didn't give him the happiness he needed to live his life.
Many LBS can give examples of replay behaviour before the affair. Is bomb drop not different to replay? I realise they have to be in replay to drop the bomb but many WH/WW have has an ea before they drop the bomb. So replay comes before bomb drop?
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Everything you are stating is replay behavior. They are searching for their youth. Trying to go back in time to finish growing up. Something didn't go right during their childhood and they must go back and finish that stage of their life before they can continue on. What I am telling you is my understanding of the crisis. Jim Conway wrote of the different stages in "Men in Midlife Crisis.". It has been expanded on by others. I believe RCR is going to get a copy of this for our forum. I agree that it is good to have an understanding of this but maybe we should wait a few days for the info to be posted and then we can better discuss it.
I would suggest the Conway book to read. It is pretty easy. Only took me two days to finish it.
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My understanding, after many, many MLC books/literature/websites, is that MLC can begin months/years before the actual "bomb drop".
Some people term "bomb drop" as the ILYBINILWY speech and some term it as the declaration of an affair of some level. Sometimes that affair is a fantasy affair, sometimes it is an emotional connection, and sometimes it is a physical affair.
Whatever that person is trying to do to prevent the aging process and to lift depression seems to be "replay". For some people, it is alcohol/drugs, sports cars, risky behaviors, alterations in appearance, working excessively, and the dreaded OP. Sometimes there are several of these at play at the same time.
Until they stop trying to use something or someone to self-medicate feelings that need to come to the surface and be dealt with accordiningly, I believe they are still in Replay.
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Thanks OP
I have read Jim Conway's excellent book. Now I frequently go back to it and read the info again and each time I get more from it. You are right it is so easy to read and so helpful.
I agree. Wait for the info and then discuss it.
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There are some people...like me, for example, that NEVER got the "speech" ILYBNILWY...I only knew for the first couple of years that I was dealing with a very angry man, and let him go, BEFORE I ever knew what was happening.
My bomb was the discovery of his using internet porn, THEN the signs of the OW dropped, not long later. His secret was out...and his life WAS secretive most of the time BEFORE I hit discovery.
I came to understand that when I busted him like that, it led to him "awakening" to what he was doing, and he took steps to get rid of OW, all the while denying her existence.
When my husband got rid of OW, going into OW Withdrawal, I heard many strange things he said about his feelings having changed, etc..and he was "mumbling" the I love you's....it was really weird. I think what he was feeling scared him, and he didn't want to run the risk of losing me, but his actions were so out of whack, he nearly DID lose me.
When he was coming out of OW Withdrawal, then worked his way OUT of the Stage of Depression, he started acting more like he used to, and some things changed back to what they'd been, but he was still on edge with me. One day he'd be fine, the next, he'd be angry, moving back and forth throughout the stages, before bouncing into Withdrawal for a time.
He tried to come forward through the end of the Stage of Withdrawal, but in the process of facing his final fears, that would have led him into Acceptance, he bounced backward into Withdrawal; getting good and stuck; until I pushed him into a tantrum that I've NEVER seen again.
He came forward once again, breaking Withdrawal, THIS time he talked about what he'd faced while within the tunnel, letting me know that he wanted to be married if I would have him back. Now, remember, he never left the house..but he was speaking from an emotional standpoint, as we were emotionally separated while he was deep within the tunnel.
Each person is different going through this, is the point. I need to find my history, BUT it won't do anybody any good, as each person is different.
Each stages carries the seeds of the one before and after, setting the stage for the NEXT stage in this.
The signs of them being within Replay are clear, but the next signs of them coming to the end of Replay are not...what one person does another will not do. Generally, true Depression sets in, although depression is present throughout the crisis. They begin SOME processing upon reaching the stage of Depression, and it continues on into the Stage of Withdrawal, although BOTH stages can run concurrently or in tandem with each other.
OW Withdrawal, in the case of an affair, is a "mini-stage" that comes after the affair, but forces them out of Replay and into the next stage which is Depression then Withdrawal, or a combination of both.
When the stage of Withdrawal is broken, the reconnection with the LBS will start in earnest..as the MLC'er will have made the major decisions concerning their marriage and family committments. Until then, it could go either way.
Even AFTER Withdrawal is broken, there are STILL more issues to sort through, and the MLC'er must be left alone to deal with those.
It takes a LONG time for them to come out completely....there will be times of cycling that might have to be broken by the LBS...but the LBS WILL know when the time is right to do that.
It would be a rare MLC'er that came through in a textbook fashion...there are always detours that are taken along the way...and each person is different in the way he/she handles things.
It took my husband 3 years to come through, but it took me 6 to navigate a Mid Life Transition/Menopause....so times cannot be relied upon, either...again, each person is different in the way they come through.
Yet, I still had more to deal with regarding my husband, as he came out with an emotional block that neither of us saw, a child that was "missed", and so there was more processing to do, from late 2004 to the present, but many components were missing from the major MLC he went through.
Have a good one.
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JA
HB version of the stages is the one that I reference. She can write and explain it much better than I can. I think we will certainly be getting that(6 stages) posted here. I wrote to RCR and she agrees with that, for the moment listen to HB, she wrote it!
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OW Withdrawal, in the case of an affair, is a "mini-stage" that comes after the affair, but forces them out of Replay and into the next stage which is Depression then Withdrawal, or a combination of both.
This is what confuses me. My wife has had two OM's that she had relationsips with but that didn't force her out of Replay. She has since tried to have relationships with 2 ex-boyfriends that didn't return her affection and is now seeking someone on dating sites. For me it feels like it will never end.
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D,
As long as she continues to flit from one relationship to another, she is STILL in Replay. It is not uncommon for MLC'er's to have multiple affairs while within that stage. She's searching for something she is unable to find. Still drying to drown her pain within another man, and it's still not working, so she's STILL searching.
It is when/if the final OW/OM is dumped, she turns back to you, and the OM/OW Withdrawal is gone into with NO going back, is when she will be forced completely out of Replay. When OW/OM Withdrawal is complete, then the next stage Depression is navigated.
Your wife is STILL in the stage of Replay, trying to recreate something from her past life.
Nothing you can do except stay clear of her, in the hopes she will run out of Replay behaviors, and start coming forward; but until she does that, she will continue on in Replay.
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And that's what tests my patience. Sometimes it just seems like she's just going to go the rest of her life searching.
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I hear you on that...one other thing, before she starts out, even BEFORE all the OMs get dumped, there must be an "awakening" within her to what she's doing...that awakening leads to dumping ALL the boyfriends, ends ALL the Replay behaviors...and brings her forward into the OM Withdrawal to heal from the damage done due to the affair.
In that process, she must remove these affairs from her heart and mind, and until she does that, she is nowhere close to being ready to try and work on the marriage. Even as she comes across, there are still NO R talks, nothing, but continuing to wait and watch, and be there if she needs you.
Something HAS to happen that's drastic enough to cause the awakening to come about. Somehow, she has to see if she doesn't stop what she is doing, she could very well lose you. She has to do this on her own, but sometimes people need incentive to stop what they are doing, and that is even true in MLC, especially if their behavior is being "enabled" to continue.
Sometimes, a confrontation in that area is necessary to hopefully bring them forward in a case of them taking advantage, no matter WHAT they are doing in the way of Replay behaviors. When it continues over and over, it is clear something needs to be done differently to break the cycle.
In other words, a child will continue to misbehave until the behavior is stopped, and the parent or figure of authority has to draw the line.
Boundaries, I know do NOT work at certain times in MLC, such as in the beginning of this, but at certain times they DO work..the LBS really DOES know when to draw that line, and enough becomes enough.
There is always a chance of them continuing right on, and then the consequences of NO CONTACT is set in motion, as there is NO room for three people in a marriage, there is only room for TWO.
What are you doing that is contributing to her possibly being stuck in this? Food for thought here.
Are you saying she is cycling within these behaviors, and how much contact are you having with her with these OM(s) in the picture?
Does she make contact for a time then start her crap once again? Or is she so far out there, you're not sure?
If she's making contact and trying to come back between the times of the OMs, then I would believe she is cycling through one right after another; in effect, she is taking advantage of you or "cake eating" trying to have it all and STILL have you on the sidelines. I'm sure this would not be acceptable to you, but because you aren't drawing the line, she continues right on thinking this is ok with you...when it is really NOT.
This can be(depending upon your answers to the questions) one of the few times that line can be drawn, in the hopes of causing the MLC'er to come forward in a positive way. In essence, there comes a time when you have to stop "catching" her.
Now this is my two cents, and that won't buy you a cup of coffee, but this is what I'm sitting here thinking.
Although you cannot make her stop, you can decide to not have contact with her as long as she is continuing the boyfriend search...and stick to it.
If you lose her, you've lost nothing, SHE is the one who has to decide whether she wants to begin to come back into the marriage or not.
If she came back on her own, and you took her back, SHE would be the lucky one to have someone that is as faithful as you are.
She could also decide to continue her wayward behavior, and keep you twisting in the wind until Kingdom Come.
The only other alternative would be to cut the ties that bind and strangle, and leave her totally alone, getting on with your life WITHOUT her...you've nothing else to lose, D.
Think carefully on the questions, D..these are questions you must ask yourself..and they are tough ones, as they require you to be honest with yourself as to what is causing this to continue, and what you might have to do...and what the consequences of your actions might be.
When you've had enough, it is time to do something different. You have more control than you think of the situation. If I'm wrong in what I'm saying, please correct me.
It is HARD, I know it's hard...I had to break a different kind of cycle within my husband, and it was disrespect that he held for me..he thought he could do and say whatever he wanted to to me and I would just take it, and I HAD to draw the line...well, what you're dealing with is a total disrespect as well.
I'd known before I stepped to the plate that it could result in husband leaving me because he possibly wasn't going to stop his behavior toward me...and by the time I faced him, I was ready for whatever was going to happen....I had had enough.
I prayed about it then confronted him...and he went all out of control on me, throwing the biggest tantrum I'd ever seen in my life, but I didn't back down....I was afraid, but stood firm with him.
This could have gone either way, resulting in his leaving me, but it didn't go that route...not only did he stop the behavior, but I got an apology for it later on...although, at the time, he was too busy screaming at me to do anything but scream, and threaten to leave..whereas I just put it right back on his shoulders.
The point is they get ANGRY when you take away their fun, bringing them back down to earth and to a reality that you show them when you make a stand to break a cycle. You are no longer willing to ENABLE what they are doing, and like a child they try to control you with their anger.
After I got over being afraid, I realized that he'd been just as scared as I had been, only mine didn't show, but HIS DID.
More food for thought.
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Justasking,
One of the most confusing things about reconnection is the difference between touch and go's and reconnection. For instance do touch and go's move into reconnection? Are they the building bricks for this next phase? If the OW is definately gone by acceptance then is it quite possible that she maybe there during reconnection as he tries to make his mind up.
Written down the difference is black and white. In practice I think it is much more confusing and not so black and white.
Awakening is more straight forward I think. As the WAH/WAW starts to wake up and we see flashes of the old spouse.
Clarity would be good.
These are excellent concerns and well said. I think I will use them as LBS questions as I write this series. I looked through my notes and I have started the series. It is called Coming & Going, but the first articles have not addressed reconnection or awakening, but have been more about the LBSs state of mind--losing love and feeling as though she no longer wants the marriage, concerns with being second choice... But I had already outlined a Touch-n-Go article, When is It Real, MLCers Return Broken--which needs to be significant but is only about 70 words. But having a discussion like this will help me in my brainstorms.
Often in the crisis the affair comes towards the end of replay not the beginning. With this in mind it stands to reason that the OW/OM may be the last to leave as he/she leaves withdrawal, starts reconnecting and goes into acceptance.
There are no absolutes, but Bomb Drop often initiates Replay or follows soon after the start of Replay. Some LBSs recongized changing behaviours and for some it was sudden. For me, Bomb Drop was sudden. Even in hindsight I saw few clues. In the month or so before Bomb he had talked a lot about a woman at work--yes she was the alienator. After bomb I did not notice that he stopped talking about her until after he'd mentioned an OW (not physical) and lied about her identity he mentioned the woman from work again...and in that instant I knew it was her. But his changes were subtle. He has a BS in Phys Ed and was a personal trainer, so the different fitness activities were not a clue like they are with so many.
As the travel through 2 or 3 stages then replay may be the less dominant stage with depression, withdrawal or even anger showing itself more forceably.
Absolutely. Sweetheart did not disconnect from me. He tried during his first leave when the alienator got him to file quickly, but we stopped that process and from that point on he clung to me. I was detached, but we did not seem to lose our bond. This enabled cake-eating. But I saw very little Monster and his Replay often seemed mild when I compared him to others. He kept wanting to come home--and yes, I kept giving in prematurley and letting him. His depressions seemed lighter also.
There was never a period of no alienator during the coming and going. I hope she is gone now--and I believe she is, but have learned not to be shocked. If he was not with her he had to be with me. He was always the pursuer--before and during the crisis.
I did not expereince distinct phase boundaries. Cycling was rapid in the beginning, but it was like bipolar mood swings rather than cycling of phases. One MLCer's Replay behaviours may not be like another's and I think Replay itself becomes less high-energy. Early Replay is when you will see the weight loss, vanity, new friends, alienator excitement...but as they approach Liminality they may exhibit greater anger or depressive symptoms--simply lower energy than you saw before. Many will think this is Conways stage 4: Depression. But Replay stretches out and becomes fuzzier. It is just not so simple.
alienators can last. When they are still present in Liminality, it is often because the energy to end the non-existent relationship is not sufficient. An MLCer who always needs to have a partner will remain with the alienator because it is easier than being alone. Think about that; many marriages have such an existence too. MLC affairs do not end when they stop being fun. Sure, some do, but many do not.
This is why it is futile to try and locate your MLCer in stages. Replay is a characteristic of the Separation stage.
An affair may go on months before the Bomb is dropped. Is that the start of Replay? Sometimes. It may depend on the nature of the affair and the alienator. The Bomb may be dropped because of pressure from the alienator. The MLCer may have been testing out having an affair and got caught in it without realizing it would be addictive. He may have though he would just try out a fling. There may not have been intention of leaving or the idea that he would eventually think the alienator was his soul mate. There are also many who drop the bomb and go in search of an alienator or who are having an EA and waiting to take it to the next level.
Bomb Drop often initiates Replay because it is a release and many MLCer leave soon after and are excited with the new freedom. Replay is about freedom.
My understanding, after many, many MLC books/literature/websites, is that MLC can begin months/years before the actual "bomb drop".
That is theoretically true. The trigger for MLC begins 12-36 before Bomb Drop--which is when you, the LBS, become aware of the crisis--though some of you noticed it before Bomb. But I think of those as being before Time in the roots. I don't meant he childhood roots, but they were less noticable and thus in the dark. MLC timelines are not recommended and yet sometimes using the term is necessary. I do not start the MLC timeclock until Bomb Drop--or noticable MLC behaviour if it precedes Bomb.
It may be helpful to understant the trigger, but analyzing the 36 months prior to Bomb Drop may be futile and wasteful.
I want to write more...but lunch break is over. I'll check back when I get home.
RCR
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HB,
That makes a lot of sense. Here's some more detailed information to maybe answer those questions. My wife was with OM #1 when she left me and their relationship fizzled shortly after she left. She hooked up with OM#2 within a month of ending relationship with OM #1. The 5 months she was with OM #2, we were no contact.
After her and OM#2 broke it off we became friends. Since then she has been searching for someone else to fill that void. I only know because I was told by her sister. My wife thinks no one but her sister knows that she's searching. She continually tells her family that we are never getting back together yet she also says that she will move to wherever I find a job.
When she first broke it off with OM#2 I would say that I was an enabler and pushed more than I should have. It got to a point a couple months ago that I felt like I was being used. It was like she wanted to pick and choose which parts of me she wanted. I pulled back from her and let her know that I would not continue to help her the way I was. Our relationship now is one of "friends" or buddies, I guess. We talk on a regular basis. For the most part I let her contact me and I only see her at kids' functions.
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D Money,
My wife has had two OM's that she had relationsips with but that didn't force her out of Replay.
HeartsBlessing gave you an excellent response. I am familiar with your situation--even though I have not kept up over the last six months--and instead will respond to this as a universal concern.
I addressed some of it from one of our correspondences in the Newsletter from 17 April Issue 2010-8: MLCer's Run, Even When the Alienator isGone[/i][/font][/size]
But let's look at this from the view of an emotional bond. Think back to when you were a teenager and had a girlfriend for two weeks. How distraught were you when it ended--given how teenagers overblow things emotionally, perhaps it was traumatic. But was it as traumatic or more than the ending of a six month relationship, 2 year...?
A marriage is a combining of lives. A single residence, pets, kids, cars and finances. That's a lot of trauma apart from the loss if the emotional and intimate bond. That shouldn't compare to an affair--MLC or not, right.
But it does. Most MLCers are seeking an emotionally-bonded affair rather than a quick fling. Some search for years and date many people before finding their spouse; the same is true of an MLCer in search of the next affair. They are not trying to play the field. Many MLC affairs last a few years and thus the emotional bond and in-fatuative addiction is stronger than a 2 month or 6 month affair. The more the MLCer invests, the more traumatic the break up will be. The investment is emotional, but is also how much of her family and life--marriage, kids--she sacrifices to be with the alienator.
MLC takes several years, thus an early Replayer whose affair was short-lived and thus had little invested will not be ready for Liminality and will instead search for another soul-mate--Mr. Right. I know I said I don't like timelines. That is because people put to much stock in them, trying to place their MLCer on a map. But I also feel strongly that if an MLCer is seeming to return within two years of Bomb, it is premature. Three years from Bomb is often premature! It does not matter that the affair may be over.
The Shadow is surfacing in Replay and the MLCer is running from it. It takes rock bottom trauma for them to stop avoiding and start facing. And the end of the affair may not be what initiates Liminality, it can, but that does not mean it will or that something else will initiate it. For AmyC on DB it was witnessing a motorcycle accident--if I'm recalling correctly. But even then she was at a place where she was ready. I think she'd had premature returns home already and had been in MLC for a few years.
The trauma may not be a big and noticable thing, it could be a series of realizations that are important to the MLCer but you are unaware they are even happening. Sweetheart credits hearing a Michael Buble song--maybe I want to Come Home--I am skeptical though. Maybe that was one item in a series--since he came and left so many times. And he had to hear it at the right time. He may have heard it 50 times before with no significance. I wonder when he heard it--which return? He was almost always wanting to come home. The last time he left he told me he wanted home three days later and a few days after telling me that he told me he'd wanted home on the way to the OWs while leaving--i.e. a few minutes rather than days. So it may not be one thing, but many. I think what the song may have done for him is make him realize he wanted to stay home and become dedicated to our marriage.
A million pennies will not make you a millionaire, but $10,000 is still a lot more than a single penny on its own.
There may be some for whom awakening is sudden, and many LBSs are worried about that, thinking that a crisis--someone must die or a life threatening accident--is required to wake them up. A crisis can wake them up, but so can life. And a crisis may not wake them.
My best friend Lingy had bypass in March 2005. In Fall 2008 her MLCer was diagnosed with heart problems, Lingy was diagnosed with heart problems in 2009. It did not stop his crisis; she died a few days before Christmas last year--2009--and that may not wake him either; his crisis began in 2003 (October I think).
This has been a long and disorganized ramble; this is what I sound like when I just type and do not bother to write formally or edit.
HUGS,
RCR
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My feeling is that my wife is comfortable with things the way they are. She thinks that we will just continue on this way forever. Me being there no matter who she's with. I don't think she really even knows what it would be like without me.
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Forever is a very long time. It may only seem like forever.
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JustAsking
RCR and HB have posted the stages at the top of the forum now!
Thanks!!
JA after you read them we can discuss them in depth if you wish.
Since HB is here participating on our forum, now is the time to ask questions if you have them.
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Thanks OP
I have taken time to read and reread the stages etc. Now I know I am not supposed to look at stages so I will make these generic questions about the MLC journey to help others and myself.
As awakening happens at the end of replay does this take time with them ping ponging back into non communication as they work out for themselves what is happening or deoes the importance and replay including OW/OM slowly subside?
It would apear that it maybe possible to get to withdrawal with OW/OM still in tow although their relationship maybe changing. If this occurs and OW/OM stays therefore haulting the WAS journey into the next stage are they then back in replay and have to repeat the depression stage again? I appreciate depression is present throughout the journey to a greater or lesser degree.
As I understand it there can never be reconnection when the OW/OM is present? And at what level is OM or OW present i.e living together to the affair finished but the alienator persistently contacting them>
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Thanks OP
I have taken time to read and reread the stages etc. Now I know I am not supposed to look at stages so I will make these generic questions about the MLC journey to help others and myself.
You can look at them all you want but trying to figure out where they are in the crisis can drive some of us crazy.
As awakening happens at the end of replay does this take time with them ping ponging back into non communication as they work out for themselves what is happening or deoes the importance and replay including OW/OM slowly subside?
Awakening happens at the end of withdwral into acceptance. Yes it takes lots of time! I think HB took all her times out of these because there was a lot of controversy on how long she had for each phase
It would apear that it maybe possible to get to withdrawal with OW/OM still in tow although their relationship maybe changing. If this occurs and OW/OM stays therefore haulting the WAS journey into the next stage are they then back in replay and have to repeat the depression stage again? I appreciate depression is present throughout the journey to a greater or lesser degree.
As I understand it there can never be reconnection when the OW/OM is present? And at what level is OM or OW present i.e living together to the affair finished but the alienator persistently contacting them>
Normally when there is a OM/OW present they are still in replay. They must get rid of them to progress down the tunnel.
Other than that they are just bouncing back and forth in replay.
I hope that helps.
You can keep asking maybe HB will pop in and help us.
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Just asking, the answer is yes. :)
Everyone is different. I've read threads where some come out and get scared and run back in, then slowly come back out.
And I've seen some where they come out, cry, admit they hurt people and want help.
It all depends on the individual MLCer, the LBS and how they handle it, and if the issues are resolved. And yes, even the OP... as they may be still digging their talons in and trying to drag them back into the tunnel so as not to lose them.
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I just need to clarify a couple of points.
If there are signs of reconnection e.g reconnection with family, friends, kids, pets, visits to the house, and OW is still in the picture, this is still classed as a touch and go?
There can be no movement into acceptance with OW/OM still in the picture. Until they are dumped the WAS remains stuck in replay unable to move on?
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Yes, that is correct.
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I hear you on that...one other thing, before she starts out, even BEFORE all the OMs get dumped, there must be an "awakening" within her to what she's doing...that awakening leads to dumping ALL the boyfriends, ends ALL the Replay behaviors...and brings her forward into the OM Withdrawal to heal from the damage done due to the affair.
In that process, she must remove these affairs from her heart and mind, and until she does that, she is nowhere close to being ready to try and work on the marriage. Even as she comes across, there are still NO R talks, nothing, but continuing to wait and watch, and be there if she needs you.
Op
You said that awakening happens at the end of withdrawal leading into acceptance but HB appears to have OW/OM still in the picture during awakening meaning that it is the catalyst that ends replay.
Can you clarufy?
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Just a thought...but I think what is going on here is a that the same word is being used for two different things--or two types of an awakening.
There may come a time when an MLCer comes to a realizations (awakening) regarding the alienator(s) and/or running around Replay behaviours.
If we were to label a stage of MLC as Awakening--and let's not go quite that far--it would be as OldPilot is describing it. It would follow Liminal Depression--I do not consider Conway's Withdrawal as a separate stage, but rather as a part of the climb out of the Liminal Pool; though the thoughts on that are a work in process.
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I agree.
I was thinking about awakening in replay when the WAS starts to realise what his replay actions have done and then starts to look towards home where the LBS sees more of the old individual. This is before withdrawal.
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Justasking,
I was thinking about awakening in replay when the WAS starts to realise what his replay actions have done and then starts to look towards home where the LBS sees more of the old individual. This is before withdrawal.
But Replay is not the end of MLC. Liminal Depression is not necessarily an Awakening. It is no longer an avoidance of their issues, but it is a greater internalization--into the cave. They focus more on themsleves in Liminality--but it may or may not be in the same selfish manners as before. I prefer to think of Liminality as Self-Centered--or rather Self-Centering. Becoming centered in one's Self.
You will see more of the old individual as they exit Liminality, or even later.
But since MLCers cycle, there are times within each of those stages where you may experience touch-n-goes and see glimpes of the former individual--like vacations from the crisis.
When they are in Replay and they begin to realize the damage, they may avoid more this may cause them to spiral downard more--toward Liminality; this relaization can bring on Liminality. Looking towards home may only increase their guilt--more Liminality.
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Can anyone give me insight into the awakening mentioned by HB as I just wondered at what stage this was seen and what signs are given by the MLCer that this is occuring?
This usually comes as the stage of Replay begins to try to come to an end. They begin to see things in a more clear light..it is also referred to as seemingly "peeking" out of the tunnel, or "clarity" within the fog.
They will also realize some things that will lead them to dump the OW..as long as OW is in the picture, they are still in Replay...dumping her is the most clear sign they are moving out of Replay, and coming forward
RCR
I was referring to a post on the other forum from HB. I apologies if I gave the wrong impression.
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"As long as she continues to flit from one relationship to another, she is STILL in Replay. It is not uncommon for MLC'er's to have multiple affairs while within that stage. She's searching for something she is unable to find. Still drying to drown her pain within another man, and it's still not working, so she's STILL searching.
It is when/if the final OW/OM is dumped, she turns back to you, and the OM/OW Withdrawal is gone into with NO going back, is when she will be forced completely out of Replay. "
The above is from HB's post....
I read DMoney's sitch with interest; my H as well has exhibited similar behaviour -- searching for the next relationship. Now he has never done this openly to the children; he hasn't even done this openly with me.
It took 2.5 years for him to tell me the whole story, so in some ways I feel that I started this rollercoaster ride all over again from that point.
And now he is spending more time with us; I have no idea if he is still looking for the next one or not, as I have stopped snooping. But then he just disappears again. He isn't Monster, but disconnected. I've been wondering for a while if this is cake-eating, and trying to trust my instincts on when a line needs to be drawn; so far those bells haven't rung.
Children make a difference. He comes here because they have said that they are tired of the backing and forthing. Actually, as they are young teens, they are just plain old tired. They want to live 'normally', not have to make a special effort to see Daddy.
At the time of his 'confession' I saw things that might have constituted 'awakeneing' -- he said that he suddenly realised that his actions may have caused pain. He said that he was sorry for having caused pain, but we didn't break through further. We started talking about what kind of friendship we could have, but that stalled as well -- and yes, through my not handling it as well as I could have.
Can that be repaired? I drew some boundaries then (no OP); that didn't work. So now I'm doing this....
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So now I'm doing this....
What is this? You can not FIX him. He has to look inside himself to fix him. You must watch and see if he goes to another affair then he stays in replay. If he doesn't then he might proceed to depression and withdrawl but it is not something that has anything to do with YOU!
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point taken, OP -- I didn't express myself very well here. ..... I didn't mean 'doing this' it to fix him; it's more about how I'm deciding to behave for my own good, and that of my children. When I said 'that didn't work' I didn't mean that it didn't fix him or restore our marriage -- I meant that it didn't work for me/us/our family -- it came across as hostile and that didn't sit well with me.
Not sure if that expresses it any better -- it's one of those woolly things that is sometimes hard to put into words.
I met a friend today, whose H was gone for 5 years in mlc; he's been back for 5 years now. She, too, said that until her H actually said he wanted to come home she had no idea where he was mentally, if he was ever going to or not, nothing. The awakening for him was slow, slow, slow, and even when he seemed to be becoming aware of the damage she still didn't know if he would return.
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T&L
Better to make mistakes here than somewhere else. You don't hurt my feelings. This is only a computer board.
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Five years... what staying power.
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After a lot of reading and reflecting I think I have grasped Awakening and Reconnection.
OP the mist has cleared (hopefully) lol.
Whilst OW/OM is still in the picture then reconnection cannot occur however intense the connection is. It has to be a touch and go. Only when OW/OM is totally out of the picture can reconnection take place. This takes place at the end of withdrawal whereas touch and goes happen throughout replay.
Awakening at the end of replay sets the WAS up for the next stage of depression. Although they are awakening to some of the mess left behind them and we may have glimpses of the old spouse, OW/OM may still be in the picture as no major decisions have been made by the WAS yet as this comes at the end of withdrawal.
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Whilst OW/OM is still in the picture then reconnection cannot occur however intense the connection is. It has to be a touch and go. Only when OW/OM is totally out of the picture can reconnection take place. This takes place at the end of withdrawal whereas touch and goes happen throughout replay.
Awakening at the end of replay sets the WAS up for the next stage of depression. Although they are awakening to some of the mess left behind them and we may have glimpses of the old spouse, OW/OM may still be in the picture as no major decisions have been made by the WAS yet as this comes at the end of withdrawal.
This is correct...I should have been more clear in my posting..hopefully this will help clarify even more.
The "Awakening" comes as Replay starts toward its end. The OM/OW may STILL be in the picture when it starts; but the most important thing is the fact the MLC'er begins to realize some things that will cause the awakening to come about(I cannot tell you what they are, these things are unique to the MLC'er, alone)....the clear sign that they are "waking up" is dumping the OM/OW, then starting the journey into the OM/OW Withdrawal phase...when that completes, they will move across to the true stage of Depression, or should. In that time, you should see glimpses of the person you knew from before, yet, they are STILL NOT out of the tunnel, as yet.
If there is NO OM/OW, then, then "running behaviors" engaged in should stop, the person that is known to the spouse should be glimpsed, and they will move directly across to the stage of Depression.
In BOTH types, their clothing should return to normal, some of their actions should return to normal..or what is known to the LBS.
They are STILL hurting, and may verbalize that hurt...listen and validate, as right or wrong, they have just as much a right to how they feel as the LBS does. They are NOT listening to the damage they've done, still yet...but know within their hearts they've hurt people..and that's enough for them to KNOW this. They may also continue on the outside, to justify their actions against the LBS, trying to cause more trouble..it is still yet a part of MLC to do this.
No one is really sure what is going on within them, except they are STILL in misery...well aware of what they've done, but trying to be "brave" on the outside; still trying NOT to look at what they've done.
It is NOT until Withdrawal that the damage becomes clear to the MLC'er
Reconnection comes after Withdrawal is broken by the MLC'er....by that time, the damage is clearly seen by the MLC'er...and they are on their way back toward becoming what they were meant to become...and, of course, this takes time to complete. During Withdrawal, ALL major decisions concerning marriage, life, job, mortality are made...and more changes take place, sending them into the final stage of Acceptance.
Reconnection goes in a backward way, completely the opposite to how they disconnected...the LBS is last in line...and the LBS journeys with them into Acceptance, or should.
Breaking Withdrawal begins the journey OUT of the tunnel, Acceptance completes the exit.
After that, the MLC'er goes into a "settling down" process, thus completing his/her journey, and even that takes a while to complete, as many things must "settle" within...after that, however, healing, and forgetting begins, and with time, it all goes to the past for good.
In the end, they are changed for the rest of their lives, some things will stay, and some things will have been discarded.
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HB, thank you -- this makes it much, much, clearer. My H's timeline seems to be much longer than most; I have seen the depression that you describe, and most certainly glimpsed the person that I knew, but he is most definitely still in the tunnel.
I resonate to the line "OW/OM may still be in the picture as no major decisions have been made by the WAS". As it has never been just one alienator in my case "OW" doesn't mean that one bonding relationship, but the idea of looking for someone else other than me.
So that I don't hijack this thread I'll put the rest of my musing on my story thread.
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My response to TrustandLove in the Coaching Archives goes over Touch-n-Goes and Reconnection. I am going to use it as the basis for a Newsletter article. Here is a link:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=21.0 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=21.0)
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I know Im a LONG way from awakening and reconnection . But from what I understand H will reconnect with family and friends first then lbs last. Do they disconnect during replay? Because my H withdrew from family and friends before replay ( if this is indeed MLC ). He is deep in replay and living with OW now for 5 months. He has gotten closer to his parents and our D22 since the affair came out in the open. And tries to have a relationship with S23 but S is angry with him. His mom told me last week H contacts her more now than he has in years.
Before bomb drop and us seperating all he did was hide in bedroom if anyone came over. Now he,s around his family all the time. ( yes im confused again). The only thing he did that really suprised me was give his beloved 14 year old dog to our D. Before all this he wouldnt have taken a million dollars for her. She was like one of our kids. People tried to buy her and there was no way he would give her up. she slept with us. Sometimes I think H loved the dog more than me.
I think me and the dog are the only ones he disconnected from. And my sister because SHE IS MAD because he hurt me. And she is the one who payed for my atty. That made him mad. lol
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Hurt01,
You are focusing too much on specific details. Not all crises are the same and if your MLCer contacts his family of origin more now than before, it is not a sign of anything regarding whether this is MLC or his location in the tunnel. The more you try to analyze his behaviour at this level of detail, the more you will become confused.
Some don't disconnect from their family. Sweeetheart remained close to his family. He was mad at them because once they figured out I wasn't the problem--and he kept coming home and leaving again--they banned the OW from their family functions. By then he projected onto his brother's wife instead of me since she and his brother were the first to ban her.
He did not contact them as frequently when he left home--I don't think he did because he did not contact his best friend often when he was gone either. But this was not due to a disconnection. He was ashamed and no one supported him in leaving--and his best friend isn't a marriage kind of guy...or doesn't seem that way to me. None of them took sides with me, they simply disagreed with his back-and-forthing.
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As awakening happens at the end of replay before depression and withdrawal can I clarify that positve steps are seen moving forward then they are stalled as the MLCer slips into deeper depression and withdrawal?
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IMHO anything as seen as moving forward is positive, however there are no guarantees.
Just because they move forward doesn't mean that they can't move backwards.
Your description seems correct to me.
Just don't make to much of it.
You must keep your expectations at zero.
But it can help your hope and your PMA.
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Justasking,
As awakening happens at the end of replay before depression and withdrawal can I clarify that positve steps are seen moving forward then they are stalled as the MLCer slips into deeper depression and withdrawal?
I agree with Oldpilot that you can interpret any forward movement as positive.
But sometimes forward movement in the tunnel involves what feels like a stall. Liminality does not mean they are stalling or stuck, the slow down and withdrawal are part of that portion of the journey. They are still closer to the tunnel end than they were when in Replay--so it isn't necessarily movement in reverse.
Remember that in the beginning MLC gets worse before it gets better? Well, that getting worse is due to forward movement. Pretty soon the light from the entrance to the tunnel is no longer visible. The tunnel is also not a straight bird's path. There are hills, so sometimes the MLCer may be closer to the opening--at the start or finish--and may even see the light, but there is a dip ahead and soon they cannot see the light as they travel forward.
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Thanks OP and RCR
I have no expectations at the moment just watch and want to understand.
H made huge steps forward with me but particularly with the children. He had started to hug and touch them again as he always did. He was communicating with me constantly via text and telephone and even took us all out.
Now this has all stopped and H looks more depressed again and has withdrawn contact with me and limited contact with the children (which has been particularly hard on S 13). HB mention signs of awakening as his touch and go had been consistent since Feb.
I understand that being back in the tunnel can be a movement forward as well. It is a journey he has to do and complete and although he is hidden that doesn't mean he is not moving forward towards the light.
Another question. When the LBS finally is able to detach successfully does the MLC er notice a change in the behaviour of the LBS or not?
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They notice everything.
They have ESP radar that picks up what you are doing and can tell if changes are real or faked.
They may even test you to see if the changes are real.
This is all training for the LBS that is necessary for both the LBS'er
and the MLC'er to complete their journey's.
It does sound as if your H is moving forward and
RCR has given you a good explanation of why "good" or
"bad" can still be positive.
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That's very interesting.
The other day when H was home he wanted to tell me something that he thought I would be upset about. He closed the kitchen door to tell me as the children were in the house.
Old me would have been verbally angry. New me just accepted what he said and we moved on!
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JA, This is an interesting thread to me as it seems my H has at least begun this process of the journey. I was discouraged as it seemed like some forward progess, things he had started to do again that he hadn't for awhile, had stopped and he seemed to be distancing again. Yet I guess it is all part of the journey. Something may be pulling him back or "stalling" him. Or maybe it is all just forward progress.
I agree with OP that they do notice things. I remember once a few months ago I responded to something that happened with just laughing it off rather than getting irritated and my literally did a double take. That alone was worth the change in my response.:)
Hang in there! You sound like you are doing well and handling it all well.
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Trusting
The post by RCR will be helpful to your situation if you saw your H come out of the tunnel slightly and then go back.
It is so hard when you see positives and then they withdraw and we can see it as negative. I need to keep reminding myself he is where he needs to be at the moment and that is part of moving through the tunnel.
Does your H have OW. Mine is still with his OW at the moment.
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JA, to answer your question about an OW, I really don't know. I have no "proof" either way. I can only go by gut feelings, and my feeling is that around the time of the bomb, leading up to and after, he was involved in an EA long distance. I did my share of snooping and snooping and never came up with anything to suggest a PA. I don't have access to the phone records. At first I had my head in the sand because "my H" would NEVER do anything like that, but he had just been too strange about his phone, etc. and I had to pull my head out of the sand. My gut tells me that it has been over for months. I realize I could be wrong about everything, but I also realize that if there is an OW/was an OW I can't really do much about it at this point anyway so it is kind of a moot point.
I have prayed for answers and while other information has fallen into my lap, nothing in to answer this question yet. I believe that God will allow things to be revealed in the right time. Of course I asked my H several times initially and of course he denied. Some days it drives me crazy not knowing, but I am trying to let it go.
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Some don't disconnect from their family. Sweeetheart remained close to his family.
No two MLC'er's paths are exactly alike.
My H not only started connecting more with his own extended family, but he has been becoming increasingly closer to my family. He talks with my father several times a week, they fix things together, borrow things from one another.
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OK, I'm not getting how to do the 'quote' thing. I tried highlighting the bit I wanted to quote, then clicking on the 'quote' button, tried clicking the 'quote' button first, all I got was the entire post quoted. What am I doing wrong?
Anyway, what I wanted to quote was :But sometimes forward movement in the tunnel involves what feels like a stall.
A large part of me is praying that this is my H moving forward; each day I feel a little bit more able to let go. He did have some sort of 'awakening' 6 months ago; if it is depression that is going on now he is still doing his best to mask it. I have seen it peek through, but he always puts it away.
I'm trying to listen to my gut, but my gut is silent. The only thing that I can figure is that he is compartmentalizing us -- on Sunday he attended, did his bit, then ran off, obligation completed, in his eyes.
Now that brings up something that he has said about himself -- that, if he's involved in an organization in some capacity (he held a voluntary office for a number of years), that he only cares about his bit, doesn't feel like he needs to be involved in the overall running of it. So he attends the meeting, gives his info, then goes. Now that was directed as a criticism of me, because I am the type to think that I need to be completely involved, (which is time consuming, etc.) but still. Is he now treating his family as one of these obligations?
I did think he was reconnecting, now don't know at all. If my gut says anything it is that we won't hear from him for a while now.
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OK, I'm not getting how to do the 'quote' thing.
For this particular one I hit the quote button and deleted the text I didn't want. When you hit the quote button you will see a quote in brackets to start and a quote in bracketswith a / to end. I also changed the size by highlighting the text and hitting font 10 pt.
On the reconnection, just keep watching, even after the reconnect you still have a very long way to go.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks, OP, I'll try the quote thing that way next time.
On the reconnect -- you're absolutely right, this is nothing if not a long, long ride.
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I think the hugging and touching of the kids is wonderful. That will be so great for them.
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I think the hugging and touching of the kids is wonderful.
My H has always been a very good father. He is very hands-on and involved in all their interests.
He was always a very affectionate H to me, prior to MLC. For some reason, after he gave me the speech, he stopped being affectionate completely. It really hurt that he would jump back if I got too close to him. I finally stopped trying to be affectionate completely.
However, where the kids are concerned, he has become very huggy and affectionate with them. It is almost like he transferred the love he once had for me to increase his love for them. It is wonderful for them.
I wish I could understand some of these things.
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My H was always the most affectionate man alive to me -- that is one of the things that I miss most. Even a few days before he left he was stressing the importance of family, and we were having 'family hugs'. He is still very affectionate to the children, always has been. It's just me that he won't touch. Although I did get a hug (first in about 18 months...) a few weeks ago.
One of his primary love languages is physical touch, and it hurts me to know that he won't let me show him that.
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Although I did get a hug (first in about 18 months...) a few weeks ago.
I think that is big. I know many MLC'ers continue to be affectionate with their spouses. My H has not been like that. I tried to hug him at Thanksgiving and he was stiff and non-responsive. I don't know why really. It hurt me enough that I have never attempted it since.
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H will sometimes hug me. If I touch him first he usually moves away so I don't touch him. That keeps me from feeling rejected. I also feel that he has replaced me with D. Great for her because she gets attention and feels loved. Sucks for me. Physical touch is my love language. When I see him and we are getting along I really want to be affectionate with him but I keep my distance. Guess I am not alone in this.....
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Physical touch is my love language. When I see him and we are getting along I really want to be affectionate with him but I keep my distance. Guess I am not alone in this.....
Definitely not. Physical touch is my love language, too. In fact, so many times I have thought if my H would just hug me I would just melt and all would be okay. I think he knows how important physical touch is to me and he "doesn't want to give me hope" for a future. Ouch!
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Same here Still. H knows physical touch is my love language. I read the book a few months ago and shared it with him. He agrees that physical touch is my language and does not want to give me any sense of hope. Says without a doubt he is done. Yep I could melt with a hug too.
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Ditto ditto ditto... pt for me also, and H will not let me touch him for the world.
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Last summer I told H that ALL that I wanted was for him to come to bed at some point in the night and hold me. If he would do that I would not complain about anything. Lasted about a week. I gave up and quit complaining any way. Figured there was no point since he already knew. Hard to understand because it just seems so simple. Not really asking for much....
(((Hugs))) Still & M&H
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Interesting. My H also read the love languages book; his two are physical touch and acts of service, and he's not sure in which order. Mine are words and time, again, I'm not always sure in which order -- with touch right up there as well. When he read the book he said he thought mine was time (this was nearly 2 years ago now....) but he didn't spend a lot of time thinking about my side of it.
Some of that book made me think what a dolt I had been -- for example I would almost on principle never iron his shirts (my feminist upbringing....not wanting to be his mother... I could groan at how misguided that idea was) -- it truly hadn't occurred to me that that could be an act of love. I was always very free with the physical affection, though.
Even H said at the time that "it's not rocket science" -- thought it made a lot of sense.
So now I could do some acts of service, although I'd risk the martyr thing, but he's not letting me near the physical.
This also brought up the pursuer vs. the pursued that HB talks about in her lesson on 'becoming the opposite'. If that applies to me, then previously during our marriage I was the pursued -- would that mean that now I need to become the pursuer?
Would initiating contact/ideas on what to do be the thing to do in his current state, i.e. if this really is some kind of reconnection, would it be seen as an act of service, a show of not rejecting him, or would it be the wrong kind of pursuit?
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If you want to try some acts of service, do so. Then watch and see what happens. Everyone is different. My H's LL is acts, and he will not let me do anything for him now. He knows I do them deliberately as mine is PT and he doesn't want to lead me on by allowing me to do acts for him... or perhaps he doesn't want me to suck him back in or something else just as silly.
Give it a try, wait, see the results, and then decide if it was a good or bad thing.
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What I think is interesting is even if you are dark therre can be communication though LL. I was dark with my W, my LL is PT and hers is AOS. She kept doing AOS for me, after she got out of replay. Cooking dinner, washing clothes. All things she would not do during replay.
So even though you may be NC/dark/dim, communications thru LL are still possible.
At least thats the way it worked for me.
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You know what's weird, my H sometimes does AOS for me lately, but he didn't before when he was first becoming monster.
I wonder if that's a clue that he'd accept AOS back from me during those times.
Good food for thought.
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I don't know about him accepting them from you, but he is sending you a message through AOS.
Now you just need to keep giving him space and let him process through his crisis.
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I think my wife has done the same with me in the past. I remember times where she would do things that I was like "Why would she do this for someone she doesn't want to be with?" I always took it as her subconscious telling me that she still loved me.
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I agree OP and D, sometimes the subconscious speaks to us... but we LBS's need to make sure we are not reading too much into it either. It's a balancing act for sure.
Good posts!
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I would not take any action on this but file it away with some confidence that they are working their way thru the tunnel.
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Now my H has recently gone back to occasionally doing small AOS for me, as I've described in my long, rambling posts.... -- it's his LL, not mine, but still. He didn't do that for years. But then he goes off like young free agent again....
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Quote
I seem to exist again; just tiny things, most could be construed as just plain politeness rather than anything more.
· We're talking, meeting occasionally for coffee.
· When in the house, he stayed to keep me company while I cooked rather than sit in the living room watching TV with the kids.
· He noticed my haircut.
· He asked a little about my work.
· He has been opening up about how he feels -- work things mostly.
Also he gave me hints about his Replay activities and how they might be coming towards an end.
He was really down and I was sad to see him like that.
I have copied the above from the coaching section and edited it to fit my sitch.
I am seeing all of the above things but I know OW is still around. It feels so much like reconnection, however I have been told before that if OW is still around, it is still replay.
I have seen touch and go's in the past. This seems much more than that.
I am going to remain detached and patient and just see what happens.
I think this could be the beginning of Liminality possibly.
Can you help RCR??
Thankyou so much
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Hi Just Asking,
Interesting thread!
My H is one of the big cyclers, he goes back and forth between the stages (noticed by everyone in his life), and also has touch and goes about every three months, as well as being I guess a drop in (he has been in replay over two years). In the last month, for the first time, and after a series of big negative events in his life, he has accepted 100% responsibility for his actions and says none of this is my fault. OW is still around, although his current focus and who he wants to spend most time with are his kids. He is about to move into his own house and we are about to legally separate.
During the three month touch and goes, he also cycles back towards his own family just as much as me.
A different way I look at the MLC process is that during Denial, the decision was made that the old life path was responsible for his unhappiness and a new life path was needed, Anger provided the energy to take action to the new life path, and Replay is trying out that life path, or several paths. The touch and goes are checking out the old life path, but the decision is still made to live the new one. The Awakening is reexamination of the question "has the the new life path provided happiness" and for the first time, objectively "what was my old life path really like?" Once these questions can be answered, then it seems to me that reconnection can occur.
With the touch and goes, and all of H's cycling through the stages, I observe the length and intensity of that activity over a period of months or compared to several of the last events to see if progress has occurred. Having said that, I have also seen him cycle back into Anger, for example, after replay has settled down, so he is moving to the beat of his own drum and there is no way of knowing the stage until looking back with hindsight.
With the current acknowledgement of responsibility , I would see it a positive step, but would want to see it as a dominant action over a period of months before considering it was "on the table" so to speak. This is based on his previous cycle patterns, some MLCers might go straight to another stage.
I could envisage H starting to try to reconnect with me before he broke up with the OW (Yellow Roses H seemed to do that), based on current journey. That is, of course, if he chose to reconnect, which he has never indicated he would since bomb drop. But since in straight forward affairs there is an affair fog that remains for months after a break up, I do not see how he would be in a position objectively consider his old life path until that fog lifts, let alone the MLC fog.
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It feels so much like reconnection, however I have been told before that if OW is still around, it is still replay.
I have seen touch and go's in the past. This seems much more than that.
I'm not RCR, but I will give you my take on this.
It looks like something is happening that is leading toward the awakening process within him...now, they can draw backwards from that, and continue to cycle back and forth, until they are READY to begin that process. It is not a true reconnection, but close enough that you see "signs" they are coming forward a little more within the tunnel.
When he starts through the awakening process, the OW is usually the first thing to go, as she no longer "fits" in with his life, or he's "finished" with whatever he was trying replay through her, if that is the case...whichever way this goes, OW/OM/OP ends up booted...now, I KNOW each crisis is different, BUT in the ones I have observed personally, including my own, the wrongs begin to be put right as the MLC'er begins the process of ending the affair...and it's NOT easy; the affair itself is addictive...and a lot of pain is gone through on both sides of the MLC'er AND the OW as the ties that literally strangle the life out of the MLC'er are cut apart, and the MLC'er separates themself from the affair/OW.
Most of the time SHE is in hot pursuit..it is much easier if she would break it off, and leave him alone, but alas, it is not always this way...and he has to gather his strength to make the break....and it takes nearly ALL he has to do that.....it is much easier to let things go the way they go, but when the urgency is there within him to make this break, he HAS to make it....he is literally FORCED to do it, and that makes him unhappy, too....but some will obey that urgency, and I'm glad they do; 'cause if they didn't..well, ALL MLC'ers who get mired within an affair would stay there, and no one would come on through the tunnel.
What you're seeing, is him TRYING to come forward, and the best thing to is to let things unfold in the way they should, regardless if he tries once or 50 times to come forward, and falls backward...it is normal to cycle back and forth, as coming forward requires processing/decision at each step....and it can be slow; unless the MLC'er gathers enough strength to do what needs to be done, coming forward more quickly.
He was really down and I was sad to see him like that.
Don't be sad; he must needs to do this for himself, and the depression he goes into; first the OW Withdrawal, and the true stage of Depression are necessary for him to continue to come forward and grow within himself.
This can be a slow process as it goes, so you'll need to dig deeper for patience, and do NOT show him pity..he doesn't want that, especially from you...this popped into my head for no reason I can understand...be understanding, show him love and care, but no pity. Validate his feelings, be there for him...and I pray that when he dumps OW, he doesn't look back.....it causes a serious setback when someone "cycles" within the affair, going back and forth between the LBS and the OW, mostly because of the addiction that is felt, and the MLC'er really has it hard because he feels somewhat responsible for OW...in a way, he WAS responsible for the position they are both in, but she has her part, too.
The frustrating thing is the fact that the LBS can do NOTHING for the MLC'er as he is breaking down the affair...he has to do this himself; and the LBS wants nothing more than to give the OW notice, but it can't be done that way.
Wait and watch the situation as it goes, patience and prayer is all that's needed here.
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HB, Thankyou so, so much. Your words/reply mean so much to me.
Since March, these episodes of reconection have been progressing , but very very slowly.
It does feel very much like he is starting to awaken this time, but I am very much aware as you say he could withdraw again and again until he works everything out himself.
In reply to his statements about his feelings I have validated, by saying Sorry you feel that way, I am sorry about that etc.
I hope this wasn't showing him pity.
He text me earlier in the week and I replied I hoped he was feeling better. He replied No worse but thatnks for asking.
Maybe the message popped into your head because of that lol
I did think maybe I shouldn't have said it.
Like you said, I know this is going to go on for a while yet, but I pray things continue to progress.
Thankyou for your thoughts and prayers. I do appreciate your time and words.
I hope you are well and are not working too hard.
HUGS
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Hi Mandy,
You're welcome....I wish I had more time, but I try to work with what I have..as far as working too hard; well, I don't always work too hard..but sometimes I work harder than I should. LOL!!
Looks like you're doing fine...maybe you shouldn't have sent that text message, but you did, and can't take it back; he may have taken it as a little pushy, but didn't do much, if anything......now go forward and see what happens next...
The point is you can't even give them a CLUE that you might be concerned about them; they see it as control, and it translates into pressure on them...never mind the concern is genuine on your part...it is all in how he PERCEIVES what you say to him...and perception seems to be everything when it comes to MLC and the tunnel they go through.
What is your intuition telling you, if anything? Through this trial, you learn to get in tune with that inner voice that you know so well, yet, you can't put a finger on who it is.
That will help you at times when no one else can.
I'm not getting anything further at this point, except again, to wait, watch, be patient; showing him love and care...things will start coming forward a little faster as you leave him alone to process his issues, being there only when he needs you, and he will need you, Mandy....he knows you are there for him. You will have the feeling to "test the waters" from time to time, but you will know what you should say to him; it will come out of nowhere for you...and it won't be bad or anything, but it will be necessary for you to say what your intuition tells you to in order to help him.
Keep us posted on what happens with you.
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HB
How am I feeling? lol
Well to be honest.......alittle spooked out lately :)
Like I said compared to the past, this is definitely big steps forward in the right direction.
I have read the stages you wrote. I have also read all the articles you and snodderley have written on db about reconnection, awakening etc.
He is following the script so closely it is beginning to freak me out.
When he paid me compliments about my hair - I think I froze on the spot
When he asked about my job etc - I think I was stuttering over the words and don't know where they came from
When he started opening up about how he was feeling - My mind was whizzing and all I could think about was you and your articles and all the advice I had read from yourselves.
I can tell you it was amazing and I just kept saying to myself ' Please help me God'
Not heard much for 2 days, but he has been texting the kids more than ever. D18 still doesn't reply at all, and S13 only occasionally. Hope this doesn't slow his progress.
H has says frequently now also - I wish D would speak to me.
Watching and waiting.More Patience needed
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Hi Mandy,
I was reading what you were writing the Lord brought forth a great feeling within me; I am in tears; your husband IS moving forward according to the script; He has confirmed that within me. And, I am thanking Him for allowing me to do what He helps me do.
There was a question apparently you had asked the Lord about, and the answer is "yes"...I do not know what that question was, but you do.
I don't see EVERYTHING that goes on...it is for a reason, I suspect. :)
Some do it according to "script" some don't....as each person is different, each crisis is different, but the Lord is always the same as in how He answers our prayers...according to our own individual needs.
Now, don't get all teary on me, just do what you've been advised.
Don't worry about whether the kids will slow him down...that is doubtful that they will slow down your husband's progress; his "chasing" them is to be expected, and you know that you are last in line when it all comes down to the wire.
There's still a long way to go, but he is moving forward, and that is all you were really wanting to know right now....you needed to know he was moving forward, and that you were interpreting what you were seeing correctly....and you are.
That, of course, doesn't mean he won't scare himself and run backwards a little ways, but you know the drill by heart.
Now, if he would just get rid of OW, and begin the journey out of the tunnel....that's where waiting, watching and the patience will come in, Mandy.
Adjust to the shock, keep going with your life AS IF...and things are fine at this time; the Lord is continuing to work within the situation at hand.
You're doing fine. :)
Much love,
HB
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Thankyou HB
Yes I did shed a tear and was shocked at what you wrote, had to pull myself together just a little.
Also there IS a question which I have prayed many many times for the answer.
I have had reports from others today that my H is depressed. It seems he is now letting the mask slip and showing others the depression he has been feeling for a while now. I have also been told that he looks 'bad'.
I think one of the hardest things for the MLCer must be owning up to the fact you have made a mistake. The OP was the answer to their dreams and it takes a lot for them to actually own up and stop trying to prove everyone else wrong.
Thankyou again for your answers. I am continuing to pray and thank God for the good signs I have seen already and also for YOU.
HUGS
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Hi Mandy,
Now, I just have to be nosy, sort of. Was the "yes" answer a good thing? I still don't know the question, and He's letting me know I don't have to know it, but He's NOT telling me if it was a good thing to get this "yes" answer or not.
Hee hee, he's not telling me anything at all on that, and is letting me know that I AM being nosy here. LOL!! It's ok, though if you don't want to answer my nosiness. LOL!
I'm curious by nature; that has served me well in most things...and you know the drill, if you want to know something, ASK; you might not get an answer, but ask anyway, you MIGHT. :)
I think one of the hardest things for the MLCer must be owning up to the fact you have made a mistake. The OP was the answer to their dreams and it takes a lot for them to actually own up and stop trying to prove everyone else wrong.
You've hit the nail on the head, Mandy....it is hard when the proverbial house of cards falls down, and OP was NOT what the MLC'er thought was going to be the solution to their pain.
It's even harder than that to realize that what you left behind is MUCH better than what you went and got....the old saying is "you don't know what you've got until it's gone."
Him looking bad, evidences the battle he is in at the moment; his moral code and conscience is literally beating him to death over this and his guilt is compounding by the day. He is beginning to see that he will need to do something, but at the moment, he's not sure WHAT he needs to do.
And so the battle rages within..and I will say the Lord is working very hard on him in answer to your prayers for him.
You WANT this to happen, so he will move across..but that moving will be up to him, as it always has been. God has NOT forgotten you, Mandy, neither will He forget you.
Signs will continue to drop in the coming days that will let you know God is deep within your situation, and you will be given a measure of peace about this.
His turning back will come suddenly, so be prepared for this, as this will also be evidence that God is truly within the midst.
He has heard your cries to Him, and knows the desires of your heart in regards to your husband.
Your prayers will be answered, as you've been obedient to Him in all He has asked you to do...it's not been an easy road for you, but you've continued to stand for your marriage, not backing down; and He has seen your unwavering stance.
Everything happens for a reason, and it is ALWAYS for His Glory; His hand is upon you; trust and believe that He continues to work within your husband.
That is all I have this evening for you. :)
Much love,
HB
P.S. I was thinking about you earlier in the day, as I was driving along, and the Lord showed me that some DO follow the script, just like your husband is doing at the moment, because, if no one did other than the people Snodderly and I wrote about, we would be made out to be liars...and no one would believe that some DO follow the MLC script to the letter; in other words, our credibility would be damaged.
This is in spite of the fact that I use intuition/my communication with the Lord for the majority of my posts to people; RCR and I, for example have both come through, but our situations were vastly different; which are living examples of "As each person is different, each crisis is different."
There are a number of ways a person can come through the tunnel to the end, and although there are NO guarantees, each person's experience is different...the stages I wrote were to help someone "see" and understand better where a MLC'er was in the tunnel; and it was based on things I saw so long ago in my own situation, that of others, and it was also an adaptation of Jim Conway's stages as well. I didn't plagarize Mr Conway, but I rephrased some of what he said to help people understand better what they were seeing in their MLC spouse.
There were "key" things within each stage to look for, and I listed those when I wrote these stages..they were meant as a guide, to help; unfortunately, people took them as "gospel", and I did read later posts when I went back this time that could have been hurtful to me if I'd allowed them to bother me.
I found that it doesn't matter how things are phrased, someone will ALWAYS have something negative to say, and people are people....it never stopped me from trying to help anyway.
There are many similarities within the crisis, but the experience is UNIQUE to each person. Again, some will follow the MLC script to the letter, some will have variations that can go from one extreme to the other.
I don't know if that made sense, but it made sense to me.
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I didn't plagarize Mr Conway, but I rephrased some of what he said to help people understand better what they were seeing in their MLC spouse.
No your version is much better than Mr. Conways. I could see the similarity when I read the book but you really nailed it.
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mandy,
I do hope that this is the awakening that you have been hoping for. Stay strong. HB writes beautifully, as ever.
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Thanks HB and T&L
This is becomming a habit, crying agiain.
I know he has to make this move across on his own, and there is nothing I can do now but have the patience I need to see this through.
The question - Yes the answer was a good thing. Thankyou. I don't see it as nosy, just curious lol
Maybe soon I will share the question itself lol who knows. Will keep you guessing on that one.
I am feeling calmer. It has been a hectic week at work and I am going to have a relaxing weekend.
You are spot on with the fact it has not been an easy road. The rollercoaster ride I have experienced has had many twists and turns and I have been through alot. I have tried to protect my children from the ride the best I can which has been very difficult as we always a very close family unit and OW was one of my D friends. (Double shock for her as well as me)
Yes I will keep you updated HB. Thankyou for your time. You said before things happen for a reason. Maybe you coming back onto the forums was meantt to be eh???
HUGS
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Maybe soon I will share the question itself lol who knows. Will keep you guessing on that one.
Is quite all right; at least it was a good thing to get a "yes" answer....I'm always afraid when He tells me cryptic things like that; but I always say what He tells me to say; even though I might not understand what I'm being given to say to a person. The message, when given, is for the receiver, not me, and they are the ones who understand it; I'm not always meant to, and I accept that. :) It is part of what He's given me to do.
You said before things happen for a reason. Maybe you coming back onto the forums was meantt to be eh???
The truth is this: I was sent back by the Lord, initially, to the DB board to get an answer to a question, because, as I was going through my 6 year transition, my husband was going through a different kind of tunnel, and I just had caught up with it a year AFTER I exited my own tunnel....long story short, I got that answer and stayed on to help for awhile in return, thinking it would be a short time. Well, in the meantime, RCR contacted me on FB to get permission to use my stages and sermons here, which I didn't mind at all, and went to get those, posting them here.
She'd mentioned her board starting up, but I didn't get instructions to make this move until she contacted me about using my writings here. I had clicked the link once or twice out of curiosity, but nothing happened; the board hadn't finished the setup process yet, and I went on and forgot about it, until she contacted me.
If she hadn't done that, I would not have known or I would have actually forgotten that this board existed at all, but I was led here to continue what I know I need to do for as long as the Lord instructs me to stay here; I have not gone back to the DB board. I wasn't to be there for very long at all, anyway, and when I knew the time was coming for me to leave there; that was when I got led here, if that makes sense.
God works in mysterious ways, and I don't question Him much about what He's about in the leading of me to where He needs me to be at any given time.
The atmosphere here is a really good one, and I've got my instructions to be here until He says leave, and He's not said anything further on the subject as yet. When the time comes for me to leave here, I will not go back there, I will simply leave and go on with my life; as I will know I'm no longer needed.
He gives me things to say for some, but not for all, and I can deal with that....I cannot pretend to understand why He does that with me and others..but I accept what my limitations are.
I post when I can, as I can, and try to help, and explain things as best as I can do with His help; as He understands things MUCH better than I do, and I've often asked for His help in understanding aspects that I didn't deal with while my husband was in the tunnel.
Most of all, I try to comfort people, give them hope, and get them to understand there IS an end to this, regardless of what happens...that if the marriage DOESN'T make it, no one failed, it is usually bad decisions that were made on the part of the MLC'er that caused the failure, and the LBS is NOT a failure at all; most especially if the journey to change and wholeness is taken...as well as allowing themselves to GROW through this crisis.
I don't believe God ever leaves people whilst they are in this trial or any other trouble they may be in, it is the people who leave Him.
Mandy, I have been where you are, understand where you've been and still are contending with at the moment, and through these times I never lost my faith in the Lord, though I got frustrated and angry sometimes; felt shame, but the Lord let me know the feelings I had were ok to have, and I could vent to Him at any time; He is always listening, and validating.
And even when things didn't look right, smell right or taste right; He was always there in the midst; I don't know what I would have done if He hadn't been there for me and with me during that time.
It is the same, even now; life throws some heavy curve balls at me, but I field them with the help of Him who knows ALL things, and I have faith and confidence, plus hope that He continues to hold my future, and that of others in His hands.
It is said that every tear you cry, He holds within His hands, and He will comfort you in the darkest hour of your fear.
He has been very good to me, and has dealt with me in a gentle way, regardless of how much misery I faced while living my life....He always let me know He was there, and that He would always bless me for my obedience to Him. And He has, with more than I ever expected, in the way of seeing to my needs, and giving me gifts to use for His Glory; never forgetting that He gets the credit for all that I am and ever will be.
It is the same for all who believe in Him, serve Him to the best of their ability; He, in turn, provides love, hope and peace to all who will accept these things from His hands.
Have a nice relaxing weekend. :)
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Hey guys, I'm so happy that this thread got this kind of response.
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I envy those who are still married with their spouse... unfortunately there are some (like me) whose spouse were the ones that divorced us (quickly). My question basically is: Will Awakening still occur? or can their pride get into the way? Unfortunately I don't experience those "peeking", "touch and go's", I guess it's just due to us having no contact at all. Unless I am so detached and no longer analyze too much (kinda made me a dense person I guess).
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None of us are sure whether our H will 'awaken'. If he moves through the tunnel there will come a time when he will have to acknowledge what he has done.
The problem with H/W who live with the OW/OM or get divorced is that they can stall in the tunnel and it may take more time added as the affair can hold them back. Don't give up hope though. You can never be sure when your exH may raised his head even though you have no contact at present.
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Is it possible , in some cases ,that divorce could speed up the process of awakening , as they may feel the exspouse is moving on? At least in cases where there continue to be touch and go's even after divorce is final.
I am curious if the ow loses appeal sooner if you are divorced. Maybe not.
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Is it possible , in some cases ,that divorce could speed up the process of awakening , as they may feel the exspouse is moving on? At least in cases where there continue to be touch and go's even after divorce is final.
I am curious if the ow loses appeal sooner if you are divorced. Maybe not.
As each person is different, each crisis is different, and so it is a literal crapshoot when it comes to MLC, as there are NO guarantees of anything in this life.
It's possible, anything's possible.
No one knows for sure WHAT will happen...there are chances that are taken...and human nature can be taken into consideration...but nothing definite.
I know one guy that left his wife and continued on with the OW...they've been married for nearly 10 years or so...but he's nowhere near to coming out of the tunnel at this point..and his ex-wife is now remarried..so that door would be closed EVEN if he decided to try coming back.
The thing is, he is STILL giving his ex-wife a hard time every chance he gets..so, that does tell me that he's NOT facing his issues.
He and his OW dress like teenagers, act like teenagers...and these people are in their mid to late 50's, so that also tells me that SHE is going though, also.
It surprises me at times, the lack of emotion I detect in his and her eyes, but this is also a part of MLC.
On the other hand, she will NOT put up with him griping and complaining..preferring him to take that somewhere else, and my husband is usually the one who listens to it...and sometimes will talk to me about it if it irritates him enough...since he is not in the tunnel, and this guy IS... I see puzzlement on my husband's face at times...and there is a gulf between them, as they used to be good friends so long ago.
Be that as it may, he's STILL in there...and it is unknown how long he will be there.
Anyway.....:)
Understand that some things are unknown, and only time will tell the tale..or not, depending upon the person..as, again, each one is DIFFERENT in how they handle things.
Hopefully this might help you understand a little more.
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HB
Thanks for sharing this story... I guess every MLCer is indeed different. Was there any attempt on the husband to reconnect with the wife within those years or was he a vanisher? Were there kids involved? If there were kids how are they taking this? Sorry to ask many questions.
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Bumping up.
Have questions. I THOUGHT a couple weeks ago H might have been having an awaking, The small awaking at the end of replay. He showed the first signs of missing D and GD. Crying everytime he talked to D. Told D he missed her and GD and he had missed out on so much in the first year of GD life. He even lied to OW so he could sneek and see GD on her 1st B-day for a few minutes.
D said when he drove off he was crying. Haven,t heard from him since unless D contacts him.
I have read through this whole thread several times. Can anyone give me insight into the awaking at the end of replay. I,ve read that you will know for sure when OW/OM gets the boot. Is this awaking sudden or slow like everything else in MLC?
Do they just all of a sudden wake up and relise whats going on and say affair is over? Or is it something they contemplate on for awhile? I know OW is an addiction I just need this further explained for my little brain to comperhend.
And since my H is a complete vanisher I have no idea what to expect. Sorry so many questions. Just want to have a heads up.
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Hurt
It is my understanding that the awakening process takes a long time but everyone is different.
What you are describing sounds like a touch and go when for a moment he has some clarity of what he is doing.
When awakening happens the replay behaviours are subsiding and you see your 'old' H at times. The old mannerisms and wearing the old clothes etc. During the awakening process they start to look towards home to see if the door is open. During a touch and go they cycle towards home and out again without any step towards a decision to make his way back.
xx
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JA,
I would not know about his old mannerisms as I do not see him or speak to him. We have been NC since Jan. I have never witnessed him cycleing or anything else for that matter.
H is a vanisher. I know I have to just be still and wait and watch, But what S and D described to me is diffrent from anything he has done in the past.
I don,t know what changes he has made during replay to know what might change back. When I seen him at the fair he looked like the same old H. Same clothes and all.(well except for the matching shirts he and OW were wearing).
I know i am analyzing , just trying to have a little hope. It is so hard when you have not had ANY enteraction with your H for 10 months. And when we did talk in Jan. He was MONSTER .
I thought I felt something changing , But now I am not so sure.
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Hurt
I don't know much about vanishers sorry. But you maybe hearing about small steps forward from your D although it is early days.
Don't discount a touch and go. They will eventually all lead to awakening and reconnection BUT I don't know about vanishers and how they proceed. Hopefully some of the wise guys will stop by and help out.
Thinking positive thoughts for you.
xx
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I THOUGHT a couple weeks ago H might have been having an awaking, The small awaking at the end of replay. He showed the first signs of missing D and GD. Crying everytime he talked to D. Told D he missed her and GD and he had missed out on so much in the first year of GD life. He even lied to OW so he could sneek and see GD on her 1st B-day for a few minutes.
D said when he drove off he was crying. Haven,t heard from him since unless D contacts him.
I have read through this whole thread several times. Can anyone give me insight into the awaking at the end of replay.
What you are describing sounds like a touch and go when for a moment he has some clarity of what he is doing.
During the awakening process they start to look towards home to see if the door is open. During a touch and go they cycle towards home and out again without any step towards a decision to make his way back.
This got me to thinking and I have added the following paragraph to the end of the last article in the newsletter--revised the back issue too.
Awakening
How are Touch-Goes and Reconnection related to Awakening?
An Awakening begins a transition of changes in behaviour. It may or may not trigger a Touch-Go and it will precede Reconnection. There may be an increase in emotionality, possibly visible terars which are not present in stand-alone Touch-n-Goes.
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Due to his emotionality this may be the start of an Awakening. That does not mean it will take or last...or that it will not take or last. During a typical Touch-n-Go an MLCer makes contact and may seem like their old Self, they may eve express regret and remorse. But there is not the same level of emotionality as in an Awakening. There may be so much emotionality in an Awakening that they may withdraw.
I have an article on Awakening scheduled for around the turn of the year.
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hurt01,
My H had what could be called an 'awakening' last year in November -- he wrote me a very emotional letter, and said that he had cried more than he probably ever had in his life. He said that he had suddenly realised that I had been hurt, possibly very badly. The trigger was a song he heard on the radio, one whose lyrics he had seen printed out at home here the summer before (I had done that for completely different reasons, but it just goes to show that you never know what can trigger what.)
There was definitely some reconnection going on, we started corresponding again and talking again. It had been e-mail only for something like 9 months. He even referred to us by the pet names we used to use, harder issues were being brought up -- but it didn't last.
Now in my case this may well be because I jumped the gun in two ways -- one, I let my own anger and emotions out, and two, I started trying to "negotiate" a reconciliation.
It was all too much for him. Also, he was still adamant that he just doesn't go back in life, not to anything -- not to a former job, not to a former relationship.
That was actually a pretty major thing for him, but it in no way led to him even thinking about coming back. What it did lead to was him confessing all that he had been doing, which to me at least explained his behaviour even before he left, as he had been blaming me for everything for so long. At least it meant that I was not nuts. But as far as he was concerned it was still the marriage and by extension me that was at fault, and he didn't want to go there.
Now he has had another, very small, awakening, this time to the fact that our S really is a problem. He says he feels guilty. I've seen the tears again, not floods this time. He has already seen that his "dream" job really isn't that at all; as a matter of fact he has said several times that he can't cope, that he can't do this for much longer.
And that is as far as it goes.
Anyway, through all this what he has shown is that he still doesn't want to deal with any of it. There is awareness, but no more. The same goes for his mother with alzheimer's; when absolutely forced to by his sister or circumstances (the home she was in was closing) he does something, but generally he just avoids.
That is a long example of what RCR just wrote; very likely that there is so much emotion that he just withdraws.
Last year I jumped in with both feet; this time I know better. I hope it will be better for me.
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Thanks RCR for the info, That does give me hope. There is not much information on vanishers. I have never had a touch and go. So have no idea what to look for or expect other than what i have read here.
Tand L
I hope your H awakens this time and moves foreward. I will keep up with your sitch and try to keep learning from what you and others experience. I think if H does ever contact me I will probably pass out or something, it,s been so long since I,ve heard from him.
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Hurt
I wanted to thank you for bumping this thread up. It made me re read all about awakening and the potential pitfalls.
As you might know my H is in the awakening process at the moment and I had forgotten how much solid info was on this thread about it.
T&L
Thank you for pointing out how your H had a period of awakening and how you reacted. It has helped me detach from H even more and wait and watch patiently for his next move and not to pursue but let him lead. I pray that your H will move forward again.
xx
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T&L, I have seen 3 Touch and go's in the last 6 months, like the one you spoke about. My H opened up more during each one, but still can't deal with his issues. He hasn't runaway this time which he would normally do.
He is continuing to make contact but the improvements are so very very slooooooowwwwwwwwwwww.
Like you I wish this would just all end and we can build a better future for both of us.
Hang on in there, hopefully we will both get there soon.
Race ya..............................LOL
HUGS
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My H is changing - his OW is no longer as important or is gone completely as he lives a long way from me i can;t police his (nor have I or want to at any time) movements - i just get feedback and know he is now back working flat out - long days etc travelling my train a lot and leaving his meetings at 7 and getting back at 9 or 10am - this he seems to be doing at least 3/4 days a week. Weekends seem to be less full on - he used to run and run and cycle and cycle now its a gently cycle and home to sleep - still seems to sleep a lot!
He is either touch/goes with me or reconnecting cant decide as we went NC for nearly 12 months then out of the blue he keeps phoning me or the odd texts with XX ?? when this he hasn't done as i said for a year.
is reconnecting with older child but has moved away from younger one (who tells him of their disappointment in him )
he has told them he that all their bad habits are from him and their good sides of their personalty are from me??
He seems to have low self confidence and poor me pity me and then suddenly can be the arrogant man he was when he first left and says how happy he is ...
views anyone is this T&G or acceptance recconnection ?????
B XX
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B
There does appear to be movement along the tunnel and replay maybe subsiding which is good. Though it might be subsiding there is still replay present. During this phase you will start to see a new H but so old H traits as well.
True reconnection comes at the end of withdrawal but touch and goes build the foundations for this and that appears to be happening with your D. MLCers often will choose one child over the other and pamper them. It is hard on the other children when they see this happening.
Sounds as if he is doing a lot of reflecting and getting moments of clarity too.
Remain detached and don't pursue him. Let him come to you. Mirror his conversations and validate. But be prepared for your H to withdraw again to continue reflecting. This isn't the withdrawal after depression but the withdrawal that is part of replay. When OW is def gone your H will slip into OW withdrawal and then depression. Remember this all takes time to accomplish to carry on with your life as yo are.
x
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Talked to my D22, ask her if she had heard from her dad. She said he has called her twice and she hit ignore on him and he hasn,t called back.
I told D her dad might be trying to reach out to her , but she said right now she just don,t care. It is hard on her having a 1yr old and 8mo pregnant. And her hormones are crazy.
I think H and S are having regular contact. Everytime I talk to S it,s dad this and dad that. Just hanging back and watching.
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General question: in the beginning h was very manic in his behavior.
When the replay begins to subside, do you see a slower pace in the MLCer?
I've noticed more fatigue, less emotion. He's friendly, kind, but reserved. Almost distracted. Really tired. Maybe they are cycling? The mania will start again? He just seems different. Odd texts, visits etc. where before the communication was very on schedule. Nothing extra.
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Butterfly - my H was very manic during replay - made me worry about bipolar actually. It did subside after replay stopped and I haven't seen the erratic, crazy manic stuff since. Be prepared for your H to cycle, though, and it may subside and then show again, etc. He now moves at a much slower pace and has since the depression hit hard (which was about a year ago now).
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Thanks Trusting,
I've just felt a change in his energy for the last month. Much lower energy than early on. Contact three days in a row. Two visits. Completely different. Had been only seeing a few minutes every two weeks.
Now getting texts out of the blue. About nothing. Expect some avoidance now for a while. 21 st anniversary due next week. Wasn't sure if that factored in or not. Expected to be a wreck myself. Surely he will feel some anxiety.
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Butterfly - sounds like some touch and goes. Yes, keep your expectations at zero. He will continue to cycle and may back off after increasing contact. It is FRUSTRATING which is why you need to keep your expectations down and stay detached. Do you have something special planned for yourself on your anniversary? If not, make sure you do plan something fun for you to do to keep your mind off of it. Anniversaries can be really, really hard, and no doubt it will affect your H as well. Mine hasn't ackowledged our last two and he lives in the same house.
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Hi my H has less energy than earlier on. He is constantly tired and feeling under the weather. He isn't rushing off every evening to socialise like he used to. The atmosphere in the house is calmer when he visits and he seems more relaxed and I can see more of his old self shining through.
I think OW is still around but to a lesser degree. He doesn't see her every day now, but exactly how often I don't know. He told me he has 'cooled' things.
The last couple of weeks he has seemed happier. Even though I have had touch and goes before, this one does seem different in the way he is interacting with us, chattier, laughing singing etc. even joking with me a couple of times. Sometimes I forget and it feels just like it did before he left. Where exactly he is in his MLC though I don't know.
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Glimmer
Your H is still in replay although his behaviour maybe less extreme. Until OW is completely gone and he goes through OW withdrawal he will not move in the tunnel. He may well be reflecting where he is and what he wants but hence seeing glimpses of your old H. When they start to come towards the end of replay their behaviours become less and you will see sign of an old and new H.
Along with this awakening will be increasing sadness as he starts to realise the mess he is in a some realisation about what he has caused.
I suggest you watch and wait as it may be a touch and go but you feel its different. Follow your intuition closely and read this Awakening and reconnection thread. HB and RCR have posts on here that might help.
You know not to have any expectations though. Carry on as you are. No loss of patience or pursuing lol
xx
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To rephrase what JA just said, he may be moving in the tunnel(they always are moving at less than a snails pace)
Just he hasn't gotten to another stage yet.
Yes, keep carrying on, nothing you do changes for a while.
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I thought since there were so many on here now who,s H/W is seems to be having an awakening at the end of replay, not to get confused with the Awakening at the end of withdrawl it need its own thread.
I know I sure could use some helpful information on this. As my H seems to be ping ponging all over the place and i,m confused.
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There was a thread started on this subject by JustAsking sometime back.
Read here:
(this thread merged with the thread linked- Old Pilot)
Read through the whole thread; it should help you to understand the Awakening some more.
It is different for each person, as each person is different, each crisis is different; what one person will do another won't do.
Oh! And read JustAsking's thread; her husband is going through his Awakening; the OW still remains at this time, but his replay behaviors are diminishing as each day passes. :)
Hope this helps, too. :)
Note Edited
This thread was merged into this thread link goes back to start
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Talk to D a few minutes ago. I thought I was the only one that noticed H was keeping his hair cut , clean shaven all the time and he had stopped wearing his cap , but D noticed to.
I had not really noticed H clothes or heard anything about his clothes. D said her dad was wearing his OLD clothes again, and he hadn,t shaved and looked wooly. Said he had gained some of his weight back.
She said H truck was nasty inside and out and had scratches all over it. H has always kept his truck VERY clean. Spit shine clean.
Don,t know if any of this means anything.
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If H is having an awakening at the end of replay at some point will he contact me. I keep reading about touch and goes and them looking towerd home to see if the door is still open. When might this happen?
Or could H move on through to OW with drawl (if he dumps OW) depression and so on before or if he contacts me?
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When might this happen?
Or could H move on through to OW with drawl (if he dumps OW) depression and so on before or if he contacts me?
As each person is different each crisis is different. What one person might do, another one won't do.
Awakening, ending of Replay, OW Withdrawal..the times and when these will happen is unique to each MLC'er, Hurt.
This would be unknown at this time for anyone...he could do either one or all you've mentioned; or he could do neither and become stuck in the tunnel.
It ALL depends upon your husband; nothing you can do or watch for at this time. IF he comes forward or not; will still depend upon him; and what issues he may be facing or not facing.
He must do this on his own.
No one knows what will happen; you can only let go and continue working on yourself; hoping that all will come out all right, and trust in God for what happens next.
I'm not getting anything on your situation at the moment, except to tell you to let go and let God work within the situation.
Even I was uncertain as things progressed along; I had no idea what would happen next, or when it would happen.
I just had to let it happen when it was time for it to happen.
I got instructions at certain times; but only when it was necessary.
Keep your focus on you; and don't worry about what he's doing or not doing at the moment.
Hope this helps.
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thank you all for your support and continued 'keeping me on the right track'. I was so detached that I had forgot how to speak to him and now when he calls he uses my cell phone (he said this time last year - when I had asked him to call to discuss a home matter - that he wont call me on my cell phone as it may interrupt me and I will be too busy to talk - wont you, my reply then was that like always I only answer my phone if I can talk and if he left a message I would call him back now (after a year of NC) every time he wants to discuss anythink or as he says when he leaves a message - 'calling for a chat?' he calls the cell phone or home previously everyhing was by email.
If i sign off texts with a X or emails with love - i get nothing back then when I sign off with a B or nothing I get X back?????????????
just tried it as an experiment so its the B he gets all the time?!!
when i ask him something re the house he takes ages getting back tome but when he asks me he gets impatient for my response and keeps chasing me?
he is now trying very hard with kids to be closer but D is playing very hard to get as she is hurt with him and really has reason to be - he has lied to her on so many occasions and begged her not to tel me.
He is back working harder having the last year been playing around - hes into running marathons and his OW is a long distance runner he met I think at a weekend running camp? I think that she is really off the scene as i have so much proof that he is not behaving the same as he did and is spending his time alone (for once not a lye) and he is being truthful to me when I ask him if he has had a good weekend (never ask for details just being polite as he has asked me, he does tell me the truth) of course I don't have lots of information - don't want any either - never ask but he now asks me all the time about me, about my work,
but he does blow hot and cold - full on then disappears - even ignored me last week at a party we were both at - he as a bit him old self but a more confident one (must say a bot OTT) but was like a 17 year old trying to make me impressed - how confusing hey?
any ideas where this MLC man is in the tunnel? relay i think but maybe with t&goes ?
what a journey this is so hard for us all
thanks again so much help from you all.
B
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Bumping this up again!
I get so much out of reading everyone elses situations. Wish I had more to give , but I have way more questions than answers. SORRY.
I will tell you what I do know. RCR said touch and goes did not have emotions like awakening at the end of replay. I am pretty sure H started having an awakening. After listening to my D ( and I only listen , don,t question her just let her talk when she feels the need to).
D said H was very emotional as did S. H was wearing preMLCes clothes and doing and acting like old H. Both kids said he was acting like their old dad again. Reaching out to them and telling them he missed and loved them ect, ect. This went on for a few weeks.
Now H has withdrawn back in the tunnel. Pushing D foreward again , defending OW ,and doesn,t want anything to do with the kids or GD. I know this is typical MLCes. But understand H never contacted me at all during this time just the kids. So I know I didn,t do or say anything to push him or make him run back in the tunnel.
I just keep living my life and getting out and doing what ever I can to keep busy. I am just putting this out here as what has happened to me and my sitch. especially since my H is a complete vanisher and has been NC since Jan.
I hope I did not misunderstand what RCR was saying and if I did I apoligize and some one please correct me.
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Do we ever really know\how do we know if they are trying to reconnect?
Why do they come out for a little while then retreat for a while before popping back out?
Do they come out for longer and eventually stay out?
SKxx
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Here is a link to RCR's articles on this.
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html
Edit fix link
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OP,
Not to mess with your head; but I'm editing my post to remove the "double link" LOL!!
Thanks, man! :)
EDIT: This is now merged with that thread.....
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Thanks for that, that's really helpful. :D
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I have just reread this thread and it was good to remind myself.
One question for the wise owls.
Do touch and goes only appear in replay?
xx
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One question for the wise owls.
Do touch and goes only appear in replay?
I would say NO.
I think they appear all the way to the end of the crisis.
Sorry. I wish I was wrong about that .
Just to be perfectly clear.
I have been reading that in some instances you can have BD during withdrawal.
As an un-named moderator can attest to.
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Hi OP, you said
I have been reading that in some instances you can have BD during withdrawal.
were you reading it in an article? Is there a link. Just doing some general reading ;)
Thanks,
S&D
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were you reading it in an article? Is there a link.
It is a link from DB. I will re-post it here.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=47650&Number=2074403#Post2074403
There are some posts written by WONKA who had her own MLC, she dropped the bonb during withdrawal according to what she wrote on this thread.
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As an un-named moderator can attest to.
Nice, OP. ;)
I have had BD twice during withdrawal. The third and fourth times don't hurt as much as the 1st and 2nd.
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Well, another small step. On Valentine's Day, she brought me Starbucks. Now, I was talking to her and she said about going to work later. I told her that maybe just she and I could go out for coffee or ice cream after she finished work. She said sure. Normally, she would shake her head and say no.
Who knows, where this is going. Now that she has said yes to the date, I don't have a clue what to do. Maybe I would have been better off if she had said no. HELP ME!!!!
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As an un-named moderator can attest to.
Nice, OP. ;)
I have had BD twice during withdrawal. The third and fourth times don't hurt as much as the 1st and 2nd.
I forgot about you STILL, you are correct but it was not you that I was referring too. ;)
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I told her that maybe just she and I could go out for coffee or ice cream after she finished work. She said sure. Normally, she would shake her head and say no.
How nice, Ready. Baby steps, baby steps......feed the squirrel ...don't scare it. (http://planetsmilies.net/cool-smiley-8969.gif) (http://planetsmilies.net)
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Just wondered if anyone can say how you tell the difference between withdrawal during replay, and the true stage of Withdrawal?
HUGS
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W&W,
I can only say what I have seen in my situation. My H had about 18 months of Replay. During that time, he would have periods where he would be less talkative and distant. It seemed to bounce back and forth....
Now, he is in a constant state of distance. He rarely speaks and if he does, it is only absolutely necessary communication. There are no periods of joking or laughter that would occur during Replay. He is completely serious....even with the children most of the time. He does have times when he seems to pull out briefly for them, but it lasts only minutes. He can't handle any conflict whatsoever. He leaves the room if the children argue or have the least conflict. He avoids any thing that may be confrontational and he spends long periods of time alone.
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Now, he is in a constant state of distance. He rarely speaks and if he does, it is only absolutely necessary communication. There are no periods of joking or laughter that would occur during Replay. He is completely serious....even with the children most of the time. He does have times when he seems to pull out briefly for them, but it lasts only minutes. He can't handle any conflict whatsoever. He leaves the room if the children argue or have the least conflict. He avoids any thing that may be confrontational and he spends long periods of time alone.
What Still is describing is a good description of the true stage of Withdrawal.
When the MLC'er is withdrawing to process at times; that kind of withdrawal doesn't last long at all, before they come out to continue their antics.
In the actual stage of Withdrawal; there IS a great distance, and a LONG silence....I'd seen my husband do this TWICE...the first time was short time, as he came across to try and face his final fears; attempting to come out too quickly; he got spooked and ran backwards into the true stage of Withdrawal for a second time.
This prompted the Lord to instruct me to confront him; and push him into a tantrum; this was because he was cycling within; and trying to NOT face his issues, fears, his behavior toward me, and the destruction he had caused; he was stuck; and needed a push forward......after that three day fight; I saw him go into very deep Withdrawal that lasted for a time....like Still's husband, he was unable to deal with conflict; and stayed clear of it as much as possible.
He was also a nervous wreck, shaking like a leaf, and was afraid of the dark; I remember many times coming home at night; and the light in the bathroom, PLUS the TV would be on..and he would still be awake.
He would not allow me to turn the TV and light off, until I was ready to go to bed with him..and though I sensed his fear, he never said what he was afraid of in the dark.
It never occurred to me to ask him what was in the dark that he feared so much...I don't think he would have told me...but I'd remembered seeing this child like fear of the dark.
He did interact with me some; but it was only when he needed something, and we still slept together..but the distance was wide and impassable for awhile...and she's also right, there were no laughs, no jokes, nothing in the way of even feelings...all was locked up inside of himself, as he tried to sort himself out.
When he broke, he broke all of a sudden; I'd been expecting it, but it caught me by surprise...and nearly everything flooded out at that time....the flood reminded me of a dam breaking from the inside out.
This, was the ending of the true stage of Withdrawal...and he made his way into Acceptance not long afterward.
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I really believe this is where my H is.
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In the actual stage of Withdrawal; there IS a great distance, and a LONG silence....
Would you say this is just with the LBS or with everybody???
Thankyou Still and HB that was really helpful.
My H has been in a withdrawal of some sort now for 3 weeks. NC whatsoever with me. Obviously the spewing has stopped and peace has resumed (for a time). He is still trying to make contact at times with S and D, however this is short and as you said serious. No joking. Contact with my family seems to have been slightly more distanced, however is still there.
I am remaining NC and detached, as usual.
This withdrawal does seem a little different than the ones in the past as usually I get to hear about the replay antics and goings on, whereas this time I hear nothing about what he is doing, only that he remains depressed and has no money.
Thanks for your help.
HUGS
xx
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W&W
While OW remains your H is still in replay and these are the quiet periods we see when they retreat to think and reflect. But this is movement you just don't see it and it often seems like they are standing still.
Your H has a lot to think about :o
xx
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Would you say this is just with the LBS or with everybody???
It is with those closest to him. If he is in public, he can put on a mask for that time being. He can take it off just as quickly. My H has a very public job and keeps a mask on much of the day. I think that is why he is so exhausted when he comes home. Withdraws completely and often falls asleep if he sits for even a few minutes. This is a man pre-MLC would be active from morning until sunset completing projects, working on household tasks, preparing for the upcoming days, months, weeks. Now, our house has numerous projects left in mid-repair and no new projects have been started this entire time.
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Still before the MLC my H was the same. Always doing things around the house, proud of his achievements ....then ML hit and it stopped and he expended his energy on OW just came home and slept whilst here.
No he is here again, but still has no impetus to do anything around the house, told me the other day cant be bothered doing anything....some days I wonder why we even want these men in our lives ::)
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some days I wonder why we even want these men in our lives
I just keep hoping for that "new and improved" version of my former H. It is simply hard to imagine right now in his present state.
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He's in there Still. You are still traveling your own journey, therefore no need to rush this.
I honestly believe, that most if given enough time, will/can come through this, whole and beautiful. Patience is your strong suit and strength comes naturally!
When this is done you will know it honey.... whatever the outcome, YOU will be fine with it... that much I know for certain.
hugs Stayed
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I honestly believe, that most if given enough time, will/can come through this, whole and beautiful.
Stayed, I can never hear this enough times..it gives me the hope that I need..but I am getting to that place where I'm going to be ok. Without some hope though, it would be harder I think for me to let go...contradictory but somehow it makes sense to me this morning.
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XYZ,
I have been noticing your posts over the last few days - and you are sounding stronger.
I am glad to see that.
I know that it is hard to hold onto hope. I am not where you are - as I am 8-9 behind you.
You have come so far. 18 months! I know that many have experienced this for longer - many have not yet experienced the time and all that you have.
With your H being a Vanisher - I can only imagine what that is like.
Although - now that my H seems to be "settled in" to his MLC and replay behaviors - he seems to be turning into a Vanisher.
I no longer even receive the inane emails or texts. He only communicates with our kids now - and that is very rarely.
One of the reasons that I love to read Stayed's comments is the hope that she can bring. As well as the knock on the head she will give you - if you are not focusing on yourself and making the most of who you can be! (Thanks, Stayed ;)).
I am so looking forward to the upcoming trip. It will be good for both of us!
Let your H go! Just let him go! He is on whatever timetable that he is on. It seems to me that he has ran away from his whole life! Doesn't sound like a good place to me. But, maybe that's the place he needs to be right now??? Who knows?
Put him on the shelf - along with thoughts of your marriage and the past. You are going to be okay. We are both going to be okay. I also believe that one of the reasons that I can let go - is that I still have hope. Isn't that the one thing that stayed in Padora's box? Mankinds ability to have hope? I guess we have to thank Pandora for slamming down the lid - just in time!
L
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Good morning Laurescan...we'll see what kind of knocks on the head we'll get when we actually meet stayed! I hope to be even more on my own path..I giggle every time I think that my Beloved will look at his points statement and wonder "she's going where???? Why would she be going there?" but that is not what it is about anyway.
Sometimes I don't know if my H is a vanisher..more of a runner..I mean, he's working in Brazil, although that was his choice (one made very suddenly and without any thought..honestly, it was a very bizarre decision). I still can't figure out why he asked me to go with him as it would have been the perfect out. And of course it stings that 4 months later, he cancelled my going with him AND decided he did not want to be married...that's confusing to me because he had never said that in the 13 month prior. Only that he needed space, patience etc so that part really frightens me. Now he is moving into an apartment which to me just means he still isn't thinking about us..because he is settling in to his own place.
Anyway, I am feeling ok again today..will take Kaci for a long walk as I have been to mass yesterday and then going to see The King's Speech with a friend. I also need to do some more trip planning.
Have a good day..wish everyone could join us but we'll find a place to meet somehow in the US that might make it easier for people to connect.
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I saw the Kings Speech a couple of weeks ago.... LOVED IT! Best movie I have seen in a couple of years.
The reason I can bang heads and say the things I say, because I know something you girls don't know. I have been there and back again. I LOVE the outcome. I like ME, in a way I never have in my whole life. I enjoy life in a way I never have in the past. All those sayings etc. that you were raised with, that we all mock.... "Life is What You Make It", "Silver Lining Behind Every Cloud", "This will make you or break", lalalala, blah, blah... THEY ARE TRUE!
Surviving this crap, coming out still loving who you are, your children, your family, everything about life, is a real BUZZ. It's the best HIGH ever. Fear is something of the past because you know things really DO WORK OUT FOR THE BEST. All that worrying is for not. There is nothing you can do about so many things in your life and you recognize those so much quicker then you did before, not even getting a tingle of fear, is uplifting.
I feel you girls are on the "threshold" of this discovery and I am waiting for you. All of you, very patiently I might add. I toss in the odd incentive to keep you on the path.
Wonderful meeting people like you folk. You see, that is something I would have missed, if it had not been for this horrendous experience. Naaaa, I don't wish this undone, it's been the best experience of my life, certainly wouldn't have wished for it, but its how my life went down. No regrets!
hugs Stayed
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Oh Stayed,
I'm a GIRL!
It sounds like I'm young or something!
L
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Stayed
I agree wih your thoughts on life! I now see it clearly - because of my H MLC - I am able to see that my life isn't about anything but what I want from it .. equal - love, oppotunity, support, care, unselfishness, passion, trust, integrity, pride, ...........
I love my children, friends, work, sport and my H, if he can see that the 'me' I am is good for him then ? but if not, then we are not menat to be!
I know he would damage me if he cant repair himself 100% and us and that isnt what I want or need - who wants a life of misery?
B x
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I can feel it Bewildered, I noticed the changes happening during our LBS weekend in Manchester.
It's all you can do honey. It really is! If hubby wants to join you, share the new wonderful life you are able to have together, wonderful, IF NOT... sad, but that's ok too.
We have found our individuality. We love who we are. We know what we want and we are so willing to share it with our spouses if they are willing to move forward too. We welcome their individuality, who they are... fine, but we will not be molded into what they want us to be.... we will not be a byproduct of their making....we cannot be that person.... anymore.
Lessons ladies and gentlemen, these are our lessons. Head them well!
hugs... Stayed...
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Stayed, you are always such an inspiration to me, but your post of 2/20 is being printed off and put in my journal! Wow! Yes, this IS our journey. Thank you for reminding us life IS what we make of it! I hope you realize what a gift and encouragement you are to so many of us who are going through the worst time in our lives. This is your God-given gift...thank you for sharing it with us. Your reward will be great in heaven!
I am very jealous of the weekend you ladies shared "across the pond". I once lived in Germany and had the opportunity to visit the UK. What a delightful country. I feel like you all are my friends as I am like a sponge reading your posts and learning from your experiences. My heart has been broken...but oh, the many joys and blessings I've received these past 10 months!
Yes XYZ, I do hope a US weekend will be planned. I would love to meet you all. We share a true sisterhood. :D
Hugs,
Heart to Heart
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I am delighted about meeting the European contingent and I am even more so to be taking this step out of my area of comfort. I was at book club tonight and the women were really joyous that I am doing this..they have seen the "progress " I have made since I joined the bookclub a year ago.
I will think about organizing something for the US..perhaps people could let me know if they'd be interested in getting together, where is the most central ( as I stated Colorado is beautiful but the altitude could be problematic especially for a short visit) when is a good time (I realize that summer with kids off might not work) and how many days would work.
I think we need to look at someplace that is easy to get to via plane.....thinking perhaps Arizona in May after the snowbirds leave..perhaps there would be some reasonable rates at some of the golf places.
Send me your ideas and I'll gather them together...or if anyone would like to organize something in their area...America is a little more difficult than Europe perhaps because of the distances.
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You go girl!
Colorado is always a good idea! I live in Pennsylvania Dutch country, close to Baltimore, Philadelphia and NYC. My kids are grown, so anytime of year is good.
There are so many beautiful places here. I hope you get interesting responses XYZ!
Hugs,
HTH
New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2593.0