Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on June 19, 2012, 03:36:59 AM
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2568.0
Continued
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Ready2Transform- Yes I to had to battle the memories of times past during that time. I was forced to look back at my own life and was somehow made to look at events from a different perspective then the one I had known. Mopst of the time it was very uncomfortable and showed me things about myself that I either hated, was embarassed about or most definitely wanted to change (or hide) about my personality. It also showed me aspects of my relationship that were terribly uncomfortable. It was driving me slowly insane and by lashing out at those around me I was able for the moment to stop the flood of images going through my mind. It was an insane answer to an insane problem. I was also seeing a phychiatrist and was taking AD's. None of that mattered.
The things my W says on FB are sometimes hurtful but I temper that with the memory of how I felt towards her. I know now she is not deliberately trying to harm me and is not capable of being empathetic towards me, so she cannot feel my pain or happiness.Yet she is still here which means she has not been able to detach from me. This then means I still have a chance to show her changes instead of talking about them. In my W's case I feel this will have a great impact on her ability to process and find her way out of the tunnel. So yes I do feel like what I do matters a great deal at this juncture. Do nothing and I will be divorced within a couple of months, do something and perhaps it will put a break in her armor long enough for her own emotions to crash in around her sweeping her from the exit of her tunnel and into the light, the painful hurt filled light that she has to use to do mirror work on herself. Riv
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My quest and reading continue
Here is another very short quote but very good!
It is from this thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=37083&Number=1402600#Post1402600
Were there any childhood issues you can think of that you resolved in your mind during your MLC that helped bring you out of it? I have read that MLC is almost always related to unresolved childhood issues.
Yes, stillhoping.
That I was "good enough".
Also this one from the same thread
What good does it know why our spouses may be in MLC? I think understanding diffuses anger and compassion can set in. I am not saying acceptance of the actions but compassion and forgiveness.
I agree.
But you can never tell a MLCer that you might have a handle on the underlying cause. Not until a time comes that they come to you and express an awareness of their own. Even then, I'd recommend treading lightly.
Any indication that you are "analyzing" her is likely to be met with indignation and maybe even wrath. She will see you as condescending and unable to admit that you could be a part of the problem. She will think you are trying to blame everyone but yourself for the state of your marriage. Your words to the contrary won't matter. She will think you are grasping at straws and in denial. I wouldn't bring it up if I were you. Unless you want to get mauled. Of course, she might be a gentle MLCer. I was abdolutely vicious. The exact opposite of what my husband had known me to be previously. One other thing though - when I was at my absolute worst as far as how I treated him, I cried myself to sleep every night because I didn't understand what the hell was wrong with me. But every morning, I woke up pissed off and wanting to get away all over again.
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Truly profound, OP. Gonna have a bit of alone time in the vehicle and you've just given me something to ponder on the way.
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Yes I learned this the hard way, there is no way to tell them you might know something about what is going on in their heads. Even the hint of it will send them into a rage or panic. My W is now telling her FB friends all about how I think I know how she feels.
I watched a documentary on the human brain the other night, nothing unusual about that I watch docs all the time. But she focused on just one five minute segment on depression and told everyone that I was trying to do research into depression by watching a doc about it. She is twisting the truth to fit her story again in an effort to make everyone think I am some crazed inhuman mate that just will not give her any space. This is to pave the way for her eventual departure, I do not know what she hopes to accomplish by this as no one is going to give her more or less help based on anything I do.
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Thanks, OP. Those quotes are good reminders. :)
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This has been one of the most educational threads going; we may need to sticky it.....
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This has been one of the most educational threads going; we may need to sticky it.....
Thank you, there is a link to this thread in Hope Floats thread(which is stickied)- "A view from the other side Various Fog Stories"
There is also a similar thread going on, on the DB website.
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Can I just say that AmyC's tale of crying to sleep then waking up ready to brawl and get away with it is scary to read?
I guess many of us have seen this sort of thing or something similar but somehow, seeing it "on paper" is scary to me. What on earth is going on with these people? Did anyone else find it crazy?
Please don't misunderstand...I'm not judging her, and I think its very brave she admitted this...I think she is probably representative of many MLCers...but wow, it is crazy stuff, isn't it?
Thanks for sharing OP...its very enlightening...
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Can I just say that AmyC's tale of crying to sleep then waking up ready to brawl and get away with it is scary to read?
I guess many of us have seen this sort of thing or something similar but somehow, seeing it "on paper" is scary to me. What on earth is going on with these people? Did anyone else find it crazy?
Scary, yes. Crazy? Yes. I've seen my husband done it a bunch of times. It becomes enervating and upseting. There he is, loosing it and doing nothing to sort himself out. Then, magically, he comes up with “it’s all you fault, I want a divorce”, then he leaves and the world gets confirmation of OW1. No offense to anyone but when I think back to those times I found it pathetic. I could clearly see he was unwell, I knew OW1 was not going to solve anything – when she was no more husband admitted she had been a bad idea – yet, he carry on. And here we remain, with him somewhere in a tunnel some 6 years down the line.
HeyJude, What they present to the affair partner is a very charming person.
I can tell you that when my husband was exchanging correspondence with OW1, before and after their physical affair started, he was nothing but sweetness, sugar and wonderful with her. She got the very nice he, the man who wanted to be with her forever. She was the love he has been wainting for all his life. OW1 was stetting the tone of the “you’re wonderful my love, I’ve never meet anyone like you before”, coming up with all the dreams and plans and husband was going along.
By then I was suspicious of an alienator, husband was behaving weirdly. And he started getting nastier and nastier with me, he lied every time I asked him if there was someone else. With her he was more and more and more charming, a true gentleman.
I remained around for some 7 months since he left. From what I get OW1 got the nice he I always got the not so nice he. Since I have detached myself by late Summer 2008 and OW2 made her public appearance at that time, I have no idea how he manages to hide the less good side from her. I get monster via court cases but that is scarce and not direct.
Well, some of the relationships seem to last a long time and the alienator does not seem to find anything peculiar about the MLCer. I guess everyone in those relationships is into some sort of a fantasy.
To say the truth it amazes me how they manage to hide so well and make the mask last for years on end before so many people. Must be exhausting.
Kikki, I think it is different from you boss pursuing you. You were not up to it. In MLC affairs we have to willing parts. In fact two very eager parts. No, I don’t think our husbands always had been modest before was a cover up. No way they were going to manage it for decades. With us they did not need to have their armour in place. We were not the fantasy person they have gone after.
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OP.....I am also appreciative of you posting this. In AmyC's story, I have read much of what I've seen in my ex-wife, which is not surprising since we know as much as we do about MLC behavior.
I am reminded of this quote from my counselor when I was telling him the things my ex-wife was saying and doing.
He said "DGU, what part of the word crisis do you not understand?"
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I have nothing to offer, but this thread gives me much hope!!!
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Thanks OP for continuing to research this for all of us.
I cried myself to sleep every night because I didn't understand what the hell was wrong with me. But every morning, I woke up pissed off and wanting to get away all over again
Somehow this reasonates and I don't really know why. I know that my husband has been tearful and he is not a man who cries...I guess the important thing about this is to realize that the tears are not for our marriage or me, but somehow to address his own internal strife.
DGU, what part of the word crisis do you not understand?"
Think you may have shared this DGU once or twice with me :)
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HeyJude, What they present to the affair partner is a very charming person.
I can tell you that when my husband was exchanging correspondence with OW1, before and after their physical affair started, he was nothing but sweetness, sugar and wonderful with her. She got the very nice he, the man who wanted to be with her forever. She was the love he has been wainting for all his life. OW1 was stetting the tone of the “you’re wonderful my love, I’ve never meet anyone like you before”, coming up with all the dreams and plans and husband was going along.
Kikki, I think it is different from you boss pursuing you. You were not up to it. In MLC affairs we have to willing parts. In fact two very eager parts. No, I don’t think our husbands always had been modest before was a cover up. No way they were going to manage it for decades. With us they did not need to have their armour in place. We were not the fantasy person they have gone after.
AnneJ - I agree - they do present as vulnerable, sweet and loving if you are prepared to buy into it, in the beginning. Anyone in their right mind, can see that the MLCer is not in their right mind though. This obsession and infatuation, is not normal. These OW have to be incredibly dysfunctional and desperate and emotionally very immature to believe the fantasy. Yes agree - they buy into the fantasy.
You're right - there's no way they could pretend to be modest for that long, could they! :)
I had confirmation that all is not sweetness and light with the OW, about 18mths post BD. It was a year after my H moved out. He left his cellphone in our car. I snooped.
What I read was confirmation that he lies to the OW to keep her off his back, and that things were not rosy.
OW - Did you make it home okay? I am so so sorry for ranting at you. Please please believe me, I never ever want to do that to you again.
MLCer - I really just have to sort myself out
OW - I need to do the same thing - sorting ourselves out is the hardest thing that we will ever have to do .......I love you and we can work this out....
Then a few days later:
MLCer - I have been thinking about what you said. I am sorry I am always grumpy all the time. I need to do something about that.
Kikki has agree in principle to a formal separation and sorting out the business (this was news to me!)
OW - thank god! How do you feel?
MLCer - Like jumping in the harbour
OW - don't get cold!
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Did you make it home okay? I am so so sorry for ranting at you. Please please believe me, I never ever want to do that to you again.
MLCer - I really just have to sort myself out
OW - I need to do the same thing - sorting ourselves out is the hardest thing that we will ever have to do .......I love you and we can work this out....
Then a few days later:
MLCer - I have been thinking about what you said. I am sorry I am always grumpy all the time. I need to do something about that.
Kikki has agree in principle to a formal separation and sorting out the business (this was news to me!)
OW - thank god! How do you feel?
MLCer - Like jumping in the harbour
OW - don't get cold!
Apart from the jumping in the harbour and the grumpy mine and OW1 said the same sort of things to each other before he left. But it was all mixed with rosy lovely things. She was very worried his health, how the situation was not doing him well, how he needed to end it (meaning go out). Then she was the one getting unwell and he was the one very worried with her. "Saying yes, my love, yes, I have to do it for us, for our love"... ::) ::) ::) Kids stuff being played by adults. And messing lives because of such things...
I think the in-fatuation hormones cloud the judgement and that is valid for the OW as well. I know OW1 only have had 2 short lived boyfriends prior to get involved with husband. She was 30, lived with her parents. She was spoilt and, in her own words “jealous and very vain”. I don’t know much about OW2 emotional past. She seems to be another girl from a small town that landed on the big city, at a point stepped into a world she did not belong to (clubbing) and got star struck with husband. Probably he is her fantasy guy… and he is offering her a lifestyle she could only dream of. It is a fairy tale. OW1 got to the point of wrote a letter titled “The Little Girl and Her Prince”. No kidding, I have it. It is all about how she is going to move to the big city to be with her Prince (husband), and how their life is going to be a never ending dream.
The MLCer has to be totally delusional and emotional frail to buy into that stuff. In his normal self husband would have laugh of such thing and said “that girl is crazy”.
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These OW have to be incredibly dysfunctional and desperate and emotionally very immature to believe the fantasy. Yes agree - they buy into the fantasy.
The OW in my situation was all those things, plus gave herself freely to men and women prior to H being there and tried to act like she wasn't like that but the stories kept coming his way from her own sister and family, she drank every day, left her own children and when I went completely silent - the BIL showed up - it was 9 days from his visit with H until their breakup. I went no FB, no e-mail, NC completely and they were still being mean about me - plus she set him back financially by the clutch incident - and he proclaimed in front of her family that he didn't want a D, he loved me and missed me....it must have been real fun.....lol.
Sorry I just have to be giddy about their quick demise - she is being very mean about him too now.....and he couldn't take her near his mom because his mom absolutely hates that side of the family. Then today he actually acknowledged not doing what he said he would and apologized. I am wary but feel good about it as well my prayers to God on Hosea 2:4 were working. I thank God that he is in our lives and protecting us all from evil.
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Bumping this thread up. I have nothing substantial to add as it has been so well covered, but hoping OP can pull some more female MLC stuff out of his hat. As I said yesterday I know that each situation is independent and unique, while also not unique as DGU pointed out. But I do think there is much to be learned from the other side.
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More from AmyC 6/4/07
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=30339&Number=1081012#Post1081012
As for them "forgetting, or not remembering" I don't know if I buy that line,
As recently as two weeks ago, my husband brought up something that occured during my MLC and I absolutely do not recall acting the way he says I acted. It's not that we have "selective" memory. It's that there is so much that is going on in our heads during MLC, often some of the most traumatic and/or emotional things get pushed deep into our subconscious. I have looked at my husband a few times in the past 3 or 4 months and apologized right in the middle of a conversation about the past because I didn't remember it when I came out of the tunnel so I never really apologized for those particular things because I didnt recall them AT ALL. It stops me in my tracks to find out these "new" things from his point of view that I did back then and I don't know how long this will last. Will I still be being reminded of things 2 or 3 years from now in the middle of conversations? Fact is, it is very possible.
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I am considering doing one of these thread from Braveheart too, I know that he still posts on DB occasionally and he had some very interesting threads.
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OP,
I totally believe this.
I have seen the shocked, no, make that stunned look on my husband's face several times when I have mentioned him saying or doing this or that while deep in the tunnel...there is no way he could fake that expression, nor so quickly. I am fully skeptical about many things now that I've lived with an MLCer for so long but he's just not that good an actor. I truly believe for whatever reason there is much, MUCH, they don't remember.
Bon
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Truth. I was low-energy, and there's still a lot that is drowned in the soup of that time period, plus I'm still seeing my H do things that are showing he's not connecting from one thing to the next or remembering things he's said and done. I know he's going to be shell shocked when he comes out the other side.
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They don’t remember a lot of stuff. I’ve seen that on my low energy cousin and a bit on my husband regarding pre-BD and OW1 times since OW1 is no more. But its all about what could be called small stuff. Not remembering things that he said or did. He remembers OW1 existed, I’m certain he remember they went abroad several times and he knows he has been meeting her behind my back.
I found it very hard to believe they don’t remember the affair, that they have lived for years on end with someone while married or that they have married OW/OM. All MLCers who have married OW/OM remember had married that person.
Would say that those who still have the LBS when they are out of the tunnel will be reminded forever in the middle of a conversation of things they don’t remember.
They will be shocked of all they have done but they know some of what they have done.
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I was about to agree that big life events get remembered, but an instance actually occurred to me that might be considered a big event that I'd forgotten.
We were in the grocery store last spring, grabbing a bag of cat food. We started arguing about which to get since we were just getting an "emergency bag" until we got to the pet store for our normal brand, and I was arguing against one particular kind because I knew our cat J wouldn't eat it. It was halfway into the argument before I realized J had died several months earlier. I know he was euthanized at our vet and that I was holding him, and I see where he's buried in my backyard every day, but no memories still to this day surrounding his passing. It's like he was here, and now he is gone.
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There can be some big events we temporarily forget. Last year I was ill, with fever and when I wake up I though I was still at home, with husband. I felt pretty ill so texted him to take me to the hospital (yep). I walked around the flat, half a sleep and burning in fever, looking for him. End up texted my mum and brother saying I could not find husband. They come round, said we had been separated for years, I said what they were saying did not made sense. When the fever passed I knew were I was and remembered that I had forgot the situation for a little while.
But that is not the same as forget for ever that one has lived with OW/OM for years on end. Come on, where have you been for all those years if you were not living with you spouse and there are tons of photos of you with that other person? All those vacations photos, all the photos on the house you’ve shared... And if you married the other person you know you are no longer married to your former spouse. Same if you divorce, you know you’re divorced.
And my husband had not forgot he had been meeting OW1 in hotels before he left. I know by his tone of voice when I tell him I know the affair started months before he left and he says : You know nothing about it. It is a very different tone of voice from when he says: I don’t remember any of those things you’re talking about. The second is genuine, the first he is scared and hiding something.
In a way AmyC strikes me as a bit of a “poor me”. She says the LBS as to humble itself in order for the MLCer to feel save to be back (I would say it is the other round, the super nasty arrogant MLCer has to humble itself if they want a chance with the LBS), she seems mortified that her husband reminds her things she had done and she does not remember. She pretty much sounds like and MLCe: she never meant to do any of it, she is so sorry she has hurt people. It is all about her, all about how the LBS has to be understanding and kind and sweet, it is never about her husband or the fact she did wrong. It is never: well, I messed up, I would get it if my husband would not took me back.
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Just a comment,
I know you say it still sounds like "poor me"; well, to a degree I believe it is. I went through a horrible "crisis" of a type when I was much younger -- if I had been middle-aged it could have been called an MLC, but I was way too young for that. The reasons for it don't matter right now, but a couple of things leaped out:
1 -- the 'not remembering'. Earlier this year I was reminded of something I did during this time, which I TOTALLY didn't remember. That is, I sort of remembered the situation, but definitely not the particulars -- I even thought there were different people involved than there were. This isn't a case of forgetting after a long time, this is something that I had thought for years happened differently than it did.
Whether I had buried the reality because I was too ashamed or whatever is also besides the point; I had already asked for and been given forgiveness, but I STILL didn't remember something. And it had been hurtful for others the way it happened; the reality was more hurtful to others than it would have been had it happened I had remembered it. Even now I have to take their word for it, because in my mind it honestly was someone else there. But I believe those that tell me what happened.
I know that sounds convoluted; please forgive me for omitting details.
And about the 'poor me'; yes, I messed up; there were reasons for it both within myself and without. And it WAS painful. The fact that the pain was badly handled is true, but it doesn't change the pain. I'm certainly not justifying what I did (and no, it didn't involve an affair), but in order for true reconciliation of any kind to take place the pain of the person in crisis needs to be acknowledged as well.
I see this in my female MLCer friend; she is clearly in HUGE pain. Which blinds her to the effects of her actions on others. It doesn't excuse her behaviour, but her pain is real as well.
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Trust, I don’t doubt the pain of the MLCer, still AmyC is too “poor me” for my liking. She should b grateful her husband was there for her when she come out of the tunnel rather than being surprised with the obvious or ranting to the LBS that we are the ones who have to be nice, kind, humble because the poor MLCer would not know who they are if we are not there for them.
MLC is a risk but it is a risk for both, LBS and MLCer, not just for the LBS who may stand just to find itself alone in the end. The MLcer runs the risk of not finding the MLCer when they are out of the tunnel. And no LBS has to be hold because the “poor MLCer” may be lost without us if we are not there for them.
But that is the thing, the MLCer remembers the situation (the big things), not the details. Therefore they know very well that they have been cheating on us, took all the money, wen to court, lived with OW/OM, married OW/OM or whatever big thing they have done. They are not that blind and they never forget the big things. At least not until many years after the crisis. At least I don’t believe they forget.
I can accept that a person in crisis thinks things happened one way when, in fact, they never did. But it remains the same, the LBS does not have to be forced to accept the MLCer just because they were out of their mind. It is up to the LBS to choose, not to a former MLCer to tell any LBS what they must or must not do. And AmyC strikes me as someone who is exhorting the LBS to do “the right thing”: wait for the “poor MLCer” otherwise this poor person will forever be lost and no longer remember who they are. I’m sorry but that is the price they may have to pay for their crisis.
No need to apologise for omitting details. You do not have to share anything you don’t to/feel comfortable with.
The bad handling of the pain does not change the pain of the person in crisis but the person in crisis seems to have a terrible problem in getting their pain is not greater than the LBS (or any other person directly involved in the crisis).
And I do not see AmyC acknowledged her husband’s pain and just how extraordinary lucky she was in still having him. She seems to want all LBS to remain waiting for their MLCer and to be fine with what the MLCer have done. Sorry but I cannot be fine with what my husband has done. He is forgive (he has been for years), I accept the crisis, I don’t fight with him and let him be but I’m not fine with it nor I think he handled things the right way. And I never will.
But when they are out of the crisis they manage to see the effects of their actions in others. Even if it isn’t because some of them will find themselves divorced , closed door to the LBS and huge trail of financial destruction. AmyC does not seem to be very good at that realising what her action really caused. It is all centred on her. I do not see/sense any genuine remorse on her and seems to want her behaviour to be excused because she was in crisis. Of course one excuses in the sense we know it was the crisis but it does not exempts them of their responsibilities in the crisis and of all the consequences of said crisis. It is their crisis, their issues, their responsibility, not the LBS one.
Ok, maybe I’m not very “poor me” MLCer friendly lately… Maybe this is a necessary part of my own journey.
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Anne, you have some very valid points.
I didn't read all of AmyC's thread in detail on DB; I don't know if she writes about feeling grateful or otherwise to her husband. It is possible that the bits we read are just the ones in which she tries to explain herself, to provide information to LBSs who want to try to see what the other side is like, and that she just hasn't written about other things; perhaps she hasn't articulated feeling grateful. I don't know; perhaps it's in there somewhere.
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Trust, I read some of AmyC thread on BD. To me she always comes across unkind to the LBS to whom she is trying to pass information about the other side. There is a world of difference between what she writes and Stayed’s husband letter & Sassy’s husband writings and infos about the other side. Their husbabd' men are kind and humble; do not come across as anti a LBS who has moved forward as AmyC does.
Was thinking about the risk. We’re said, and rightfully so, that there are no guarantees, that we may not have teh MLCer back. But, in a way, the MLCer is the one running the bigger risk. Most likely than not they will not find the LBS waiting for them. Maybe that is why some, like my husband and Kikki’s husband make it so hard for us to divorce. If we are divorced they know we will move forward, the only way they have to try to stop that is keeping us legally attached to them. Still, the MLCer cannot be sure the LBS will not fall in love with someone else.
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Looking over it some more, I don't see her as 'exhorting the LBS to do the right thing'; in that I read that she is so very grateful to her H for DOING that. I do see her more as explaining rather than groveling, and I find that perspective valuable. I don't want my H to grovel, and I don't think that my H will ever say something like "what was I thinking". He's where he is, he hasn't figured himself out yet, I can't change that. All I can do is continue for myself.
But then again, my sitch is different, my H isn't keeping me from 'moving on'; I'm living how I choose rather than it being dictated by him. Which does make a difference.
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If anyone is interested I have been running this same thread over on the DB board and it has taken a little different turn there.
So if anyone is interested in following it here is the link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741
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I tried to follow it; I got a bit confused -- did someone say that AmyC didn't reconcile after all? That her H was an alcoholic? That puts a different twist on things as well.
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I tried to follow it; I got a bit confused -- did someone say that AmyC didn't reconcile after all? That her H was an alcoholic? That puts a different twist on things as well.
Yes that is true,
why does that put a diiferent twist on her MLC?
I think the insight is still the same.
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OP, maybe, maybe not. In fact, I would guess that her calling her husband an alcoholic sounds just like MLC spew. "Oh, our marriage didn't fail because I was a wh*re who publically humiliated her husband for years on end. No, it was because he was an alcoholic. Poor me." And even if this guy started to drink a little bit more than he should, I can't EVER imagine how that started. This all just smacks of a typical female MLCr. In fact, this storyline overwhelmingly bolsters what I have said all along that 98-99% of female MLCrs never reconcile. The destruction is just too massive and all that was ever good about them is gone. Forever. Male MLCr reconciliation stories are about 10-20 times more likely. Moreover, I know of NO RECONCILIATIONS with female MLCrs once the kids are 18+. None.
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OP, maybe, maybe not. In fact, I would guess that her calling her husband an alcoholic sounds just like MLC spew. "Oh, our marriage didn't fail because I was a wh*re who publically humiliated her husband for years on end. No, it was because he was an alcoholic. Poor me." And even if this guy started to drink a little bit more than he should, I can't EVER imagine how that started. This all just smacks of a typical female MLCr. In fact, this storyline overwhelmingly bolsters what I have said all along that 98-99% of female MLCrs never reconcile. The destruction is just too massive and all that was ever good about them is gone. Forever. Male MLCr reconciliation stories are about 10-20 times more likely. Moreover, I know of NO RECONCILIATIONS with female MLCrs once the kids are 18+. None.
WOW Doc, there are over 6000 posts from her, have you read them?
I have and I do not read what you are writing into any of them.
I guess I can blame YOU for YOUR wife's MLC too.
Sorry I am not buying what you are selling.
I was just reading another DB story about M Go Blue.
He turned his wife down from reconnecting because he was involved with another woman who he then married.
We all have paths to walk and decisions to make, I am sorry that there is destruction in your marriage.
But you have choices too, as do most men.
Maybe there are no female reconcilations because most men walk away and never look back.
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I was just reading another DB story about M Go Blue.
He turned his wife down from reconnecting because he was involved with another woman who he then married.
We all have paths to walk and decisions to make, I am sorry that there is destruction in your marriage.
But you have choices too, as do most men.
Maybe there are no female reconcilations because most men walk away and never look back.
OldPilot with male divorcee suicide rates three times that of the rest of the male population there may not even be a husband to go back to. But to further that line of thought it is the males who tend to remarry more quickly also having been in a committed relationship they crave it and will seek it out much sooner then the female LBS. So there is also less chance for reconcilliation. It is a complex issue but I do not feel the female MLCer is forever damaged beyond coming back, at least I really and truly hope not.
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It is a complex issue but I do not feel the female MLCer is forever damaged beyond coming back, at least I really and truly hope not.
Forever damaged? Absolutely. No one can do what they have done and go unscathed. I mean, imagine 'waking up' one day and realizing that you just shot 71 people in a movie theatre, wrote "Healter Skelter" on the wall with the blood of a pregnant lady (yes, that's how they spelled it), or orchestrated the deaths of over 6 million people. Evil is evil. How do you look at yourself in the mirror after doing something evil? I don't know, but I think that being forever damaged is implied. Furthermore, how do you trust YOURSELF? You know, we spend a lot of time thinking about how we are going to trust THEM, but we spend very little time thinking about how they will be able to trust themselves. Imagine that. Not being able to trust yourself to do the right thing.
Putting that aside, the real issue, to me, is the chasm that is created between the LBS and MLCr during this process. More specifically, the LBS, if they use this time correctly, grows exponentially and leaves the MLCr behind in their stunted, immature state. Even if the MLCr 'wakes up', they are probably a very unsuitable mate for the LBS as a result and a fulfilling relationship between the two is unlikely (although not impossible). That's the whole purpose of the OM/OW, they can have a relationship with someone who is just as defective, immature, and stunted as they are, if not more so.
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I have not read all AmyC posts. But I don’t like the tone of the ones I have read. She sounds like a desperate MLCer.
Her husband may or may not be an alcoholic before her crisis. If he was, the question should be why did she wanted to reconcile with a man in such state?
AmyC crisis was a crisis and that is not changed. If the husband was an alcoholic could that had been a trigger? I do not know but it is possible. If he was not an alcoholic before his wife crisis is an understandable reason to become one but it is also something that can put off someone who has been thought MLC. Yes, they did all the wrong things but the last thing they need is a spouse with troubles. That is why the LBS has to become strong.
Doc, from what I see on this board, female MLCers do return, even after they have married the OM. DGU does not have kids and his wife if reaporaching him. DGU friend, whose wife had married OM also has no kids and the wife wants to reconcile. One of the males here (I don’t remember which one) had a male friend that was engaged to a lady and broke off the engagement because his MLCer had returned.
OP, judging by this board many males do wait and look back. Otherwise, none of you gentlemen would be stating and no male MLCer would return.
Riven2, I think the high male suicide rate because of divorce is even more frequent if the divorced man was a MLCer. Male MLCers, having hit rock bottom are prone to suicide. The risk is especially high for those very troubled MLCers who will not have the LBS waiting for them.
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Doc, from what I see on this board, female MLCers do return, even after they have married the OM. DGU does not have kids and his wife if reaporaching him. DGU friend, whose wife had married OM also has no kids and the wife wants to reconcile. One of the males here (I don’t remember which one) had a male friend that was engaged to a lady and broke off the engagement because his MLCer had returned.
I don't doubt this at all. That's just the 2%. Even then, how many of these are SUCCESFUL reconciliations. By that I mean, there's more to a reconciliation than just showing up at the door with a sad face. There could be a multitude of reasons for doing that other than reconcilation, especially dealing with an MLCr. Cash and an empty bank account comes to mind.
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I don't think that AmyC ever "blames" her MLC on her H's alcoholism. They are two separate issues. It may have been a trigger, who knows. She does identify childhood issues behind her MLC.
Putting that aside, the real issue, to me, is the chasm that is created between the LBS and MLCr during this process. More specifically, the LBS, if they use this time correctly, grows exponentially and leaves the MLCr behind in their stunted, immature state.
I believe this in part is why reconciliation is so difficult. We are light years ahead of them emotionally at the end of the crisis, I think. They have regressed and we have grown. What you will "put up" with and the effort you are willing to put into it is a very individual decision.
I do think that maybe there are not as many female MLC reconciliation stories is because men are generally more likely to move on faster. Also, it does seem that generally female MLCers push through with a divorce much faster than most males. I am not sure the reason behind that (maybe because women are more emotionally driven?), but based only on observation that seems to be the case in general.
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Hi all it has been a while, but I do like to check out progress on the site from time to time. Doc H, I understand what you are saying, but what the female MLCer does is no worse than what the male MLCer does, and I try very hard to not use words like ow (or whatever the male equivalent for emotional and physical infidelity is) when describing the actions of my MLCer. And I have ended my stand. I still get occasional feelings of anger, that world condones this sort of dumping of families so that a person can seek thrills in someone elses arms. But I also think, how terribly sad that my ex is in a place where he thinks that a relationship with someone that he really barely knew when he decided to screw around was what he needed, above working out our problems for the sake of our historical bond and friendship and love (and of course for our kids).
I have ended my stand, and I have moved forward without any hopes or desires or plans to reconcile. One day I hope to find someone capable of a more mature and true type of love, one that is not based purely on a hormonal response and a desire for no emotional responsibility. I think you are right about one thing, I can see clearly that the 20 something that my ex left me for IS much more of a similar emotional maturity level with him than I am. I have progressed beyond that, as one is meant to do as one leaves their early adulthood behind. Which is one reason that I feel it would be very hard to go back. However, I am also aware that I cannot go forward, on my own, or with someone else, if I filled with anger, hate or sadness. I truly think a new relationship will happen for me, when I have really let go of all vestiges of those intensely negative and blame-filled emotions. So, you may be right about the process of moving on - we all must choose eventually the conditions under which a reconciliation could take place and then make an assessment of the likelihood of those things happening. I think many male LBS just decide EARLIER not to stand, closing the window of time.
I can see why you would be cynical about the reasons someone would come back, but honestly in the midst of MLC, it doesnt matter HOW broke a person is, they do not want to return (more likely to move back in with parents than go to the LBS, I think), so I think that if they want to return, more often than not (if it is MLC and not just a WAS) they probably have made some sort of decision that is not about financial stability.
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I will quote what M Go Blue said about reconnection
he did go through his own MLC too BTW.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=888347&page=3
I agree with you that many MLC spouses do attempt to return. We may not see it, as what we believe an attempt to reconnect would look like, is far different than what their attempt is percieved by us.
Our beliefs and expectations of reconnecting probably play a role to some degree why there are less reconnections than there could be.
Time is another major player in reconnection and probably the biggest reason more MLC spouses do not get back together with the LBS. Going through MLC takes years and the LBS grows tired of standing still with their life hoping for a return of their wayward spouse.
For most LBS, they grow and evolve from their spouses MLC and come to realize that their happiness doesn't depend on whether they reconnect with thier MLC spouse. They learn to eventually set themselves free.
Again his wife tried and was denied by him
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One day I hope to find someone capable of a more mature and true type of love, one that is not based purely on a hormonal response and a desire for no emotional responsibility.
I second that. Noticed your MLCer is on his mid 30's jist like my husband was at BD. My husband went for e 30 years old woman and OW2 was also on her 30's. None of them was on their early 20's but I suspect that their maturity was as regressed as my husband's one at the time.
The irony is, at 17, when we meet, he was very mature for his age. He would have not put up with a woman like OW1 or OW2. He could have if he wanted. There were several like them at school. He never liked that sort of woman. MLC really changes everything.
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This is now a few pages ago, but to reply to OP, it doesn't put a different twist on her MLC, but it seems it's her decision not to reconcile, rather than her H's -- we talk here a lot about it eventually being the decision of the LBS. So it seems her H didn't get to choose, as we say so many eventually do.
So it seems that while she may regret her actions during MLC (which she seems to do), she still doesn't want to go back to her H.
I didn't notice anything about children, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.
I agree, the insight into her crisis itself remains the same.
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This insight from a woman in MLC was interesting to me too. It would have been a neat and tidy package had they reconciled and we could point at a 'success' case. There seems little in this that is neat and tidy though.
Early on after bomb-drop for me, I joined another online group. There, briefly I exchanged emails with a woman that told me she had come out of MLC. She had married another man, after first going through an emotional affair. She had walked away from her own family to assume a wife/step mother position in a new family with two young daughters. She was on the other forum because after two years of marriage, she was torn and agonized.
She had realized that her own children no longer wanted her in their lives. She had grandchildren that she was not in the lives of. She had realized that she loved her first husband. He had moved on ( she didn't say what this meant - whether he had a new relationship or whether he didn't want to be with her ). She was in a lot of pain, but said she was determined to make this new family work - to not destroy another family. Her words to me were that my wife wouldn't know where she was when she comes out of this crisis.
You know it's virtual reality in some ways. All of these recollections and forums - while they're real lives, the writing is edited parts of stories that we hear just one side of. You don't really know what is happening in people's marriages. It turned out that we didn't know what was happening in our own! But because of our experiences, we can relate to the stories.
And they are real too. Real 'left behind spouses', real spouses leaving marriages, real [ choose your own word ] alienators, real children.
There is no formula, but there appears to be a pattern.
The consistent pattern at the beginning is that there is a sudden, unexpected change from a spouse, frequently associated with an affair, followed by blame, and then separation. Then there is a time lapse, while a big percentage of our lives goes on in some form. Then inconsistency. Some of our spouses remarry, have new children, move away, or 'vanish'. Some of us LBSs do the same.
Some of us reconcile. Some of us hope for that.
The certain thing for me is that my wife quitting on our marriage, finding more value in another man, sharing our children was absolutely not what I would have expected from her. And another certain thing is that it completely knocked me out of orbit. I've been trying to get back into orbit ever since. It isn't the same orbit, and I have big wobbles that change it from time to time.
I can see reasons for my wife to be unhappy with me. On the other hand, I listen closely to friends, relations and co-workers, and I don't think our family was so different from theirs.
I think it helps to see patterns - to hear some kind of consistency that there comes a time of realization for at least some 'MLCers' - from the cases we've seen - like RcR, HB, Stayed, DGU's friend, AmyC, the woman I talked to.
I believe that the mystery I experienced when this first began was real. It didn't add up. My wife told me it didn't for her either. She told me that she didn't know how she could just throw it all away. It was genuinely a mystery at that time to us both. And because that was a real mystery, and because it has been unreal in a lot of ways since then, I believe that our story hasn't finished.
I'm not sure what the outcome, and at the moment it doesn't feel optimistic for reconciliation, but I would be grateful for a realization at least like Amy, or the woman that I spoke to.
I think the damage is permanent too - at least the wounds will heal, but the scars will remain. Deep wounds, visible scarring.
And - change. If this hadn't happened, I wouldn't be running a half marathon, be learning a new language, be a happy vegetarian, helping a global charity, or be playing guitar and singing to crowds of people. Surviving, and making new goals. I'd give all that up to have a whole family, but it makes me at least see some of the potential in myself that I didn't see before.
I read some of Amy's writing too - she mentioned at one point that she wised up after an accident, and that her husband 'stood' until he had to stop for his own sanity ( I recall ). I don't know what that meant - she didn't explain. I think her realizations about that time fit for me. That helps a bit. Every scrap of hopeful realization helps me in this.
bnw
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This is now a few pages ago, but to reply to OP, it doesn't put a different twist on her MLC, but it seems it's her decision not to reconcile, rather than her H's -- we talk here a lot about it eventually being the decision of the LBS. So it seems her H didn't get to choose, as we say so many eventually do.
So it seems that while she may regret her actions during MLC (which she seems to do), she still doesn't want to go back to her H.
I didn't notice anything about children, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.
I think she and her husband did reconcile, although I do not believe they were divorced.
Then he had his own MLC, which included him being an alcoholic and he was not giving that up.
She wanted to go back to her husband and I do not believe she wanted him back as an alcholic,
just like none of us here want our spouses back while they are with an OW.
Her son was a teenager at the time and now he just went into the army.
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Very well stated, BNW. I feel I am one of the most guilty of falling into false hopes and reading into things I should not. I don't know why I can't just quit and move on, and sometimes I curse myself for finding this site and LT as I would likely have already moved on if not for my belief in the knowledge I've gained. Is it real or are we all just followers of a flawed and mistaken belief system based in our own denial? I don't know, but I hope for more stories to end happily regardless of whether we are correct or not.
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Thanks for the explanation, OP.
And BNW, that was very well put. You're right -- each of our situations is actually a real life, and it's a lot more complicated and untidy than can be written on any forum.
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and sometimes I curse myself for finding this site and LT as I would likely have already moved on if not for my belief in the knowledge I've gained. Is it real or are we all just followers of a flawed and mistaken belief system based in our own denial? I don't know, but I hope for more stories to end happily regardless of whether we are correct or not.
Thundarr - our family counsellor, who is also a psychotherapist - says that this is something that he sees reasonably frequently. In his experience, some people pop out the other end of it, and some don't - they remain stuck.
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and sometimes I curse myself for finding this site and LT as I would likely have already moved on if not for my belief in the knowledge I've gained. Is it real or are we all just followers of a flawed and mistaken belief system based in our own denial? I don't know, but I hope for more stories to end happily regardless of whether we are correct or not.
Thundarr - our family counsellor, who is also a psychotherapist - says that this is something that he sees reasonably frequently. In his experience, some people pop out the other end of it, and some don't - they remain stuck.
Well Thundarr if I was DGU or RCR I would say
TRUST THE PROCESS.
and
MLC TAKES TIME.
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and to add to OP's post...eve when they come home it still takes time
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and sometimes I curse myself for finding this site and LT as I would likely have already moved on if not for my belief in the knowledge I've gained. Is it real or are we all just followers of a flawed and mistaken belief system based in our own denial? I don't know, but I hope for more stories to end happily regardless of whether we are correct or not.
3 years into this and the same feeling remains as in the beginning. I did not fall out of love with my husband, he left me..this was all his decision.
So where am I then? Do I change my core values that believe that marriage is a sacrament that cannot be broken? Because he changed his?
I am finding myself...alone..it is very very lonely but I don't think another person will be able to fill that void anyway. MLC or not doesn't really change things for me. I still have to live each day.
The theory of MLC does explain and help me to heal...it removes our marriage as the cause of what has happened so I don't beat myself up that somehow this is my fault.
Thundaar, I am moving on regardless of my marital status. Bit by bit, it's not the life I want really, it's not the life I had planned on but I do not feel stuck. I was in the first 2 years perhaps unable to see a life without him...but reality has a way of hitting you and the memory of life as it used to be is growing dim.
If nothing else, MLC allows me to hope that we may get another chance. So I'd rather have that little bit of hope than have that totally removed. It doesn't stop me from living.
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...I am finding myself...alone..it is very very lonely but I don't think another person will be able to fill that void anyway. MLC or not doesn't really change things for me. I still have to live each day.
The theory of MLC does explain and help me to heal...it removes our marriage as the cause of what has happened so I don't beat myself up that somehow this is my fault.
Thundaar, I am moving on regardless of my marital status. Bit by bit, it's not the life I want really, it's not the life I had planned on but I do not feel stuck. I was in the first 2 years perhaps unable to see a life without him...but reality has a way of hitting you and the memory of life as it used to be is growing dim.
If nothing else, MLC allows me to hope that we may get another chance. So I'd rather have that little bit of hope than have that totally removed. It doesn't stop me from living.
My thoughts exactly altho I am not so far along in the process.
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xyzcf - beautifully put. That is it exactly.
At 2.5 years post BD, I too am finding the memory of the life that we had is very much fading. The memory of who my H used to be is fading.
.I am finding myself...alone..it is very very lonely but I don't think another person will be able to fill that void anyway. MLC or not doesn't really change things for me. I still have to live each day.
That is very profound. I wonder if those of us that have chosen to 'stand for ourselves' intuitively know this. That trying to get someone else to fill that void would be even more of a colossal disaster at this point that the mess that we find ourselves and our families in.
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Yes, and I wonder if this truth gives me the patience to soldier on this exhausting journey of R. No one else can make me feel better. My MC said that blended families have a 1 in 4 chance of making it. I just finished a great book on divorce and the effects on kids (The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce) filling my void with another man is not the best choice for my boys. It adds so many layers.
So we are all here in different states, one day at a time on a journey we didn't initiate.
I am with my H but I am often lonely too. I think about how often I have been alone and it unsettles me.
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I think it would be a huge disaster. Obviously we are ot over our H or W or we woukd not be here. Why in the heck would we want to go on to someone else and later on inflict the pain and suffering we have been through onto someone else. Which lets face it unless its a booty call (I think thats what they call it nowdays lol), We are going to cause someone pain.
I met a lovely lady the other day who's H of 20 years was having an affair dating back 8 years. She left her H. Her H's best freind then told her he had loved her for many years. She moved on with her H's best freind but told me she will never love him. What she had with her H she said was a dream she would never get back and didn't want that ever again. How sad he will never really move on with the man she really loves
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My MC said that blended families have a 1 in 4 chance of making it. I just finished a great book on divorce and the effects on kids (The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce) filling my void with another man is not the best choice for my boys. It adds so many layers.
Gallagher - this is my thinking exactly. Although I haven't read that book - I must look out for it.
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Here's the link to the book. http://www.betweentwoworlds.org/
Its a sobering read. If only we could get our spouses healthy enough to read and appreciate it.
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Thanks Gallagher - very sobering.
Between Two Worlds is illuminating for what it conveys about divorce, but it is equally striking for what it says about marriage: that the couple’s essential task is to make one home from their two conflicting selves, creating an ideal context for a child’s spiritual and emotional growth. In intact families, this struggle goes largely unnoticed by the children. After divorce the conflict no longer rests on the parents’ shoulders but takes root in the heart of the child.
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Yes, it really is a fantastic read.
I heard myself bragging about how mature my kids were becoming. That's a big no-no. They become mature because they are forced to deal with complex adult issues that they should never have to experience at this age. They become mature because we adults NEED them to be. Supports my instinct that having a half way healed H at home is better then having him gone. I know that won't hold true for all cases or even be an option. But it helps me to keep plugging away with am MLCer at home.
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Supports my instinct that having a half way healed H at home is better then having him gone. I know that won't hold true for all cases or even be an option. But it helps me to keep plugging away with am MLCer at home.
If he's not monstering and there's no longer an OW, I too believe this would be for the best for the boys.
Wishing you all the very best Gallagher.
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I read your opinion on my thread, Gallagher, and I agree with you that even a broken W would be better at home right now for the kids sake. It would be more stressful on me but I know what it is like to live with W when she was already well on this road. As far as "working on the M," some things will just work themselves out naturally. If there is not an OP and no longer Monster then I think it would be for the better for them to come home if there were kids involved (and maybe even if there weren't).
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He had moved on ( she didn't say what this meant - whether he had a new relationship or whether he didn't want to be with her ). She was in a lot of pain, but said she was determined to make this new family work - to not destroy another family. Her words to me were that my wife wouldn't know where she was when she comes out of this crisis.
I believe there are times when the MLCer stays in a relationship with someone other than the LBS. They are determined to make it work. I believe that determination, though is because they are certain the LBS is not an option......the LBS has made that abundantly clear in many cases. Limitless' co-worker "MLC Man" comes to mind.
You don't really know what is happening in people's marriages. It turned out that we didn't know what was happening in our own!
I agree with the thought that you never know what is going on behind the scene in a marriage. I am not one who equates MLC with an unhealthy marriage. As I tell many people, MLCers can be experts at Projection. Absolute experts. Once my emotions began to settle down a few months after bomb drop, I realized there was no way my wife's Projections could be true. She claimed things like I never loved her.......yet she somehow failed to mention this even one time during a 15+ year marriage.
There is no formula, but there appears to be a pattern.
I think when the word formula is used, it is associated with a cure. In my view the pattern is the important piece. The pattern can be what gives people the confidence in the process. I rarely focus on an end result with my ex-wife. I have shared this with a few others, but I know that when my ex-wife makes it through the process, our marriage stands a chance at that time. That time is not anytime soon as that's not how MLC works.
The consistent pattern at the beginning is that there is a sudden, unexpected change from a spouse, frequently associated with an affair, followed by blame, and then separation. Then there is a time lapse, while a big percentage of our lives goes on in some form. Then inconsistency. Some of our spouses remarry, have new children, move away, or 'vanish'. Some of us LBSs do the same.
The things that surround bomb drop are quite dramatic. The sudden unexpected change, the Projection, etc. Every MLCer is a bit different, yet also not so much. Few MLCers marry the alienator, and a majority of those end up in a second divorce (which is true of many non-MLC cases also), few MLCers have children with the alienator, and few are true Vanishers. The vast majority of MLCers do physically move out. RCR has a few blogs about separating in order to return.
I think it helps to see patterns - to hear some kind of consistency that there comes a time of realization for at least some 'MLCers' - from the cases we've seen - like RcR, HB, Stayed, DGU's friend, AmyC, the woman I talked to.
Yes, exactly. These are the types of things that can give us confidence in the process itself.
I believe that the mystery I experienced when this first began was real. It didn't add up. My wife told me it didn't for her either. She told me that she didn't know how she could just throw it all away. It was genuinely a mystery at that time to us both. And because that was a real mystery, and because it has been unreal in a lot of ways since then, I believe that our story hasn't finished.
This is awesome to hear you say BNW......it's a recognition of the MLC process.
I'm not sure what the outcome, and at the moment it doesn't feel optimistic for reconciliation, but I would be grateful for a realization at least like Amy, or the woman that I spoke to.
At least right now, I am more concerned that my ex-wife make it through MLC than I am concerned about her and I reconciling. I want my ex-wife emotionally healthy. I truly want that for her.
And - change. If this hadn't happened, I wouldn't be running a half marathon, be learning a new language, be a happy vegetarian, helping a global charity, or be playing guitar and singing to crowds of people. Surviving, and making new goals. I'd give all that up to have a whole family, but it makes me at least see some of the potential in myself that I didn't see before.
You have done an outstanding job of focusing on your Self. What you have said here is something we each need to make sure we don't overlook. This is impressive BNW.
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Really agree with you DGU and BNW
My MLCer H said once "and we haven't even talked about any of this yet..." ::)
That was 10 mos post BD. When he said it I laughed and said "Yeah...huh?"
Until then I always wondered what that quote from HB (I think) meant ' when the MLCer finally breaks his silence and talks to the spouse for the first time" (or something like that) When he said 'we haven't even talked about this yet.' I was :o :o :o. Like OMG maybe in another 2 years we will. Things like that make it easier for an LBS . It enables us to Trust the MLC Process.....which is not an easy task at first. Another benefit of TIME...The gift that keeps on giving...:P :)
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Giving.....and taking, Mamma.
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Thundarr, There in lies the 'rub'. Not to let it TAKE! ;D
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Giving.....and taking, Mamma.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance_are-attached-to-your-inner-victim.html
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Http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance_are-attached-to-your-inner-victim.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance_are-attached-to-your-inner-victim.html)
Thank you for pointing that out DGU I really needed that today.
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My MLCer H said once "and we haven't even talked about any of this yet..."
That was 10 mos post BD. When he said it I laughed and said "Yeah...huh?"
Oh my goodness ! I had completely forgotten about this - I got this very same line around the same timeframe too .......
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Bump this up for some of the men that may not have read this thread.
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The one I dealt with just kept emailing " We'll talk" "We'll talk soon"...and on and on
Guess what?..never happened.
I have a cousin hit her mid life.
She had multiple affairs on her H before she forced him to divorce her. They had 3 girls I simply could NOT understand how she just left moved in with her mother and left her kids :o :o :o :o
Things weren't good between them for years. She did all kinds of things. They had a hobby farm I guess 6 beef cows etc. She feed them in zero degree weather, would paint the barn..he'd criticize.
If the kids boots weren't in a row..he'd b!tc#.
She ended up with a heart condition that hospitalized her..and that was it.
She moved out stayed away until he couldn't take it anymore and divorced her.
he remarried a year later.
As far as I know? It wasn't one of her affair partners.
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This thread's been around for a while and it's so very helpful. Just attaching here.
WH
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Even though Moment has left the forum - the last two threads have proved interesting for many of you, so I have started a third thread and linked the last one to it
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5399.0;all
Carry on with comments that MLCers give helping us all understand a little bit more