Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Ready2Transform on August 26, 2012, 04:46:30 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/health/raison-shootings-ptsd/index.html?fb_action_ids=10150977959277470&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
Saw this article, and there's some similar symptoms discussed. I hadn't seen anyone mention the dissociation before (my H saying he was dissociating at one point was such a pivotal piece of data for me that will always confirm this is so much more than just an affair or a lifestyle change). Also, I think we as LBSs can benefit from dealing with our own BD PTSD.
previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1769.0
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Good article, I see similar things there.
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I think there's definitely a PTSD link in MLC - it's almost like it's "deferred trauma", waiting for the perfect time to spring it on them.
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Interesting article, Ready2.
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I have PTSD. I have believed that my whole family (H and both D's too) as a result of the trauma around 11 years ago. I have my own PTSD from childhood; however, everything fell apart for all of us and we all went sort of crazy when the original events set off the chain of events that happened. (Rape> suicide attemps> family dysfunction and anger and constant drama...etc...) At any rate, I know things in my life may be due to those traumas more than MLC and I have no idea if the MLC is me or H but regardless, the PTSD is pretty constant for me. I have night mares when I see violence or when emotions get strong. I have a severe startle reflex. I worry because H and D (the victim and runaway) do not sleep hardly at all. I at least sleep a little!
Last year, when I was working at a hostile work environment, a person came up behind and to the left of me on the side with my lazy eye and got in close and started making threats and trying to intimidate me. I ran to the closest phone available and called security. Thankfully, they understood the situation and filed stalking charges against the person who threatened me.
I was pretty hysterical and called my boss to ask for more details on this person for him to give to security and he called me "overly dramatic." That's when I left that job. He can f*** off. Even security understood the threat. They were able to find the event on the security camera and they made sure I was safe.
This hostile boss was just an a$$hole and there was already 'office politics' happening, so he was just being intentionally rude and jerky.
However, I will say that the person who stalked me and scared the crap out of me is lucky my instintive urge to beat the crap out of anyone attacking me didn't set in. Flight or fight! It really exists! I did the flight. I have no regrets for what I did. Security took my side against the boss. The boss was completely in the wrong and I am safe out of that work place now and the stalker was stopped and police reports got written.
Also, I guess I just want to add that disocciation is a poor coping skill but it is one way that helps (even if it at times hinders). I try to think of disociation in a mild sense as being closer to the detachment idea. I know it is not the same exact thing, but it is one way to separate yourself from the item causing pain.
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The first few lines apply to mlc I think:
The brain is by far the most complex thing that we know of in the universe.
And yet, for all its complexity, sometimes the brain responds to events in ways that are so remarkably predictable that we can use these responses to help people who are suffering.
I don't think lbs's have exactly the PTSD that comes from horrifying events & traumas but, all these things have a spectrum & I do think some of us are at the less severe end.
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There is an interesting book called "Transcending Post Infidelity Stress Disorder" By Dennis Ortman.
I do believe that many LBsers are traumatized to the extent that they do experience serious symptoms of PTSD.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs (back to psych 101) looks at the things that we MUST have in order to be able to proceed to higher levels of living. If the lower levels of biological and physiological needs, safety and belongingness and love are not met, it is difficult to attain esteem and selfactualization. This is usually shown as a pyramid.
Self-actualization: personal growth and fulfilment
Esteem needs: achievement, status, responsibility, reputation
Belongingness and Love needs:family, affection, relationships, work group, etc.
Safety needs:protection, security, order, law, limits, stability, etc.
Biological and Physiological needs:basic life needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep, etc.
© design Alan Chapman 2001-7, based on Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
Biological, LBSers are on high alert because everything is being torn away from them without their choice. We are pushed into a constant "flight" pattern that causes overstimulation of our adrenal glands and the release of hormones such as cortisol which are helpful in the short term but destructive when they are constantly turned on.
And MLC lasts a very long time so we are constantly under this excessive stress.
My dad was a POW and he did have PTSD...I remember he had nightmares, inability to sleep, depression, lack on interest in things, withdrawl, anger and suspicion and paranoia.....and he really only seemed to relate to friends that had been with him as a POW....somewhat like the way I feel about fellow LBSers.
Our lives are destroyed..suddenly, without warning and it is similar to a natural disaster. We also have other predisposing issues that may complicate how we respond to stress.
I know how badly this has thrown me out of my normal way of responding..how I coped for 54 years before this happened. Is it full blown PTSD? Probably not but I think there are more similarities then less.
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I have read already several times that emotional neglect and psychical abuse in childhood can cause a PTSD later in life. And I am absolutely sure my H had one. I saw him dissociating. He couldn't say a word and was staring in front of him and he didn't now were he was at that moment. Really really scary. I think dissociation has also a lot to do with suppressing your bad memories, never think about them. I think if you don't suppress your bad memories / experiences and try to get in terms with them, give them a place in your life, you will never get a PTSD.
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I have found so many of the links on various threads really helpful but like most of you do not have the time to read all of the threads and therefore have probably missed some really useful articles.
Perhaps those of you that have posted links on threads could link them again here maybe?
Here's one I found on the addictive affair... http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/blogs/it-loving-relationship-or-addiction
and another on emotional dependency http://www.outofstress.com/emotional-dependence/
previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1769.0
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S&D
WOW! this is a great article. i count myself as one of those who "stepped up" to help my h out of this addictive relating (with OW, who is such a disaster of a person i feel sure their "relationship" is totally co-dependent--can't confirm this, but suspect they BOTH have the "it's us against the world" mentality) but have now "stepped out". i have been dealing with h and his MLC and deplorable behavior for 3+ years now, even before i knew about OW--the signs were all there, withdrawal, moodiness, anger, irritability...all of it.
interesting that my h is a self-proclaimed alcoholic, and admitted to me that he was/is addicted to porn. he has an addictive personality, which i guess puts him right smack on track for an addictive relationship. i don't know that he was ever addicted to me--if he was, it was long long ago, and because he has such a low opinion of himself--no "core" or "soul" as far as i'm concerned--OF COURSE he's looking for his fix (what he terms "happiness") any way he can get it--booze, porn, OW...sheesh. it's a sad situation.
and people who are like this have to want to change, want to get help, and END THE DENIAL i don't see this happening with my h any time soon, if ever. again, a sad situation. sad sad sad. i am sad that h is so sick, that he won't get help, that he's still playing the blame game...sad for me, sad for him, sad for my 3D.
i have also recognized that i have to STEP BACK and MOVE FORWARD. i am not mentally ill, addicted, MLC. i am able to cope with what life throws at me--with A LOT of help from family, friends, faith, and this forum has helped me immensely!!!
thanks so much for sharing this link.
onlyjo
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Thanks onlyJo
I just thought that it would be cool if we all share links we find useful because I have loved so many of the ones I have found on threads but know there are so many more really good ones that I've probably missed!
The more we learn - the more we grow!!
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Here are some more on co-dependency and BPD
http://www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com/2012/03/codependency-and-borderline-personality.html
http://www.eharmony.com/blog/2013/06/20/codependent-relationships-how-to-know-if-youre-in-one-and-how-to-break-the-pattern/#.Ug309qtwbIU
http://codependencerecovery.com/
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http://www.abandonment.net/ For lbs.
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This is the guy I first listened to when BD happened.
He quite literally saved my sanity. His MP3 on midlife crisis marriage has to be purchased but he has now started doing weekly podcasts which you can access free from ITunes or hit on this site and link that way.
Some of his blogs are very pertinent but throughout all his blogs and MP3s he talks about the importance of changing for yourself.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/
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Another one about letting go..
http://tinybuddha.com/blog/40-ways-to-let-go-and-feel-less-pain/
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One about detachment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkHT4jqRBGo
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Wow, you've been busy, Songanddance - I have got so much to catch up on - late night reading!
Thanks for pulling all these together :)
xx
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there's more to upload - but one bit at a time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyvyzYOWLmI
this one is a little rambling but she makes an interesting point about 7 mins in!
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And another one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz9SIJGNw7U
5 mins in - there is reference to relationships.
2 good phrases What we resist it will persist.
and
Hurt people hurt other people!
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I don't know who writes this. Someone from here? I recognize some posts. Good overview anyway.
http://www.midlifemaze.com/Is-it-a-Midlife-Crisis-.html
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Calamity, thank you for the article links. The abandonment one was exactly what I needed to read today.
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SongandDance - thanks so much for starting this thread!
Here's one article from a blog that helped me understand depression better.
http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/why-depressed-men-leave-1/
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The New Me - awesome article! Thanks for sharing :)
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Thanks for these links it is certainly a helpful insight in to how 'minds' work.
Can this thread be put so it is always at the top to allow easy access ?
Thanks
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Great article TNM. Has your H read it? I would be very interested to see what my H thought of it because it describes him very accurately. It would be very interesting to see if he still thinks that it wasn't depression and was something else.
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No, Hope and Faith he hasn't read it but I've talked to him about it and the site in general. He agrees that depression played a part. He's known he's had depressive tendencies for a long time but has tried to deny their effect on him. There are a lot of other great articles on the site where the writer talks about how his depression has affected his wife and how vigilant he has to be in his awareness of the warning signs. My H and I talked about that, too.
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This one is on letting go and is about an hour long. I watched this over two nights and fell asleep during each time but two days on from watching it I feel different more positive. Who knows? It might have been subliminal messaging! The monk is British but quite high powered in that he holds very important titles and has a very British sense of humour. His style is anecdotal but very enlightening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USC5MJVZLy8
Going to watch other clips from him and will post them on if they can help
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This is on the opposite of attachment to our family, relationships, possessions
Just started watching it - already engaged my attention fully.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L50xVM7wwss
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Another one by Ajahn Brahm on "Control" and how to let it go. Refers to relationships quite a bit. Fast forward to about 9 minutes in.
Listened to this twice today and it's really helped me ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEnU5BBr_7Y
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Hi Songanddance
As requested................................ :)
http://www.mysticmamma.com/lunar-eclipse-full-moon-in-aries-october-18-2013/
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C/o Sunny - OW and emotional blackmail including OW becoming pregnant!
http://gettinbetter.com/blackmail.html
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Wow S&D - that article on borderlines and OW is actually rather scary!
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Hi Songanddance
As requested................................ :)
http://www.mysticmamma.com/lunar-eclipse-full-moon-in-aries-october-18-2013/
WOW...............that says it all for me. H and I came to a head on the 18th; things have shifted in both of us. Everything seems to be up in the air but I see it as a positive; I think we have both let go of a lot of expectations which I hope will lead to a new relationship.
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http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/07/05/the-domino-effect-in-codependency/
C/O In It - thanks!
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4162.msg257849#msg257849
Just reading across the threads and came across this. 30 signs of midlife crisis depression. Thanks to Weeping Willow and Sassyone
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This is from the DB site.
Recipe for success in dealing with MLC
I needed this tonight!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=566433&page=199#Post566433
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Booboo - thanks - very helpful re-reading all these things again. Very useful when I am seeing my Mlcer today.
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Thanks so much for this thread song and dance! I've got a lot of reading to do tonight and am looking forward to it. It made me remember so e of the articles from this website I read before I arrived at hs and how it lead me into affirmative prayer and my journey with god. I hope it helps:
http://www.rekindlelane.com/main/
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http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/simplyred/yourmirror.html
Heard this on the radio today - Simply Red. Look in the mirror baby. Read the lyrics and see the connections
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00y4c3h
Here's another one from radio 4 (BBC) 3 min clip on the other woman. One of the women being interviewed and wrote about it having been the OW albeit for a very short time says that it was not the relationship that kept her being the OW -she says it wasn't really a relationship - but her fantasy about being The Woman. Bazinga!
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http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/features/428395/confessions-of-a-first-time-mistress.html
And this is the article Bibi Lynch wrote about being a mistress. Yes it's a short affair but read her feelings about herself and the R.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007qlvb/episodes/player
And this is the radio 4 listen again page on Woman's hour. Thursday 2nd Jan is a divorce phone in and Saturday 4th looks back at that phone in and looks at life after divorce and this is what I heard yesterday.
I AM NOT PROMOTING DIVORCE BUT SOME OF THE THINGS I HEARD ABOUT LIFE AFTER DIVORCE WAS HELPFUL AND WHAT WE ARE TOLD TO DO NOW. It is also very sad and interesting to see how many people out there get divorced because of spouse's behaviour and it is clearly MLC but the LBS didn't have help in learning this.
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=30.0;all
Thanks to Calamity who posted this archived thread from 2010 onto ICAWC' s current thread. It's about the OW and very interesting reading.
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=30.0;all
Thanks to Calamity who posted this archived thread from 2010 onto ICAWC' s current thread. It's about the OW and very interesting reading.
I agree - gave me comfort in 4am this morning ;)
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I signed up to Lee Baucom's podcasts (VERY helpful marriage guidance expert) They are accessible via ITunes too and are free. This one below is this weeks. I will try and re-post each one as I get it but I have a huge backlist of previous podcast links to do for you first.
So the writing below in blue is his introduction to his podcast and not written by me!
Quick question, and I already know the answer!
Do you find yourself trying to convince your spouse to work on the relationship?
Do you try logic and rational facts to "help" your spouse see your point?
Do you find yourself begging and pleading, trying to get your spouse to change their mind?
Do you notice that these strategies fail? Do you notice that many times, when you try to convince, when you argue, beg and plead, that you actually lose ground?
This week, I tackle the problem with those strategies of convincing, begging, and pleading. I look at why you do it, and why you want to take a different approach.
You can find the audio right here:
http://wp.me/p3YHG4-lS
As always, the audio is free and doesn't even require an email. Just take a listen.
Please leave a comment there and let me know what you think!
Here is the link again for the podcast:
>>>> http://wp.me/p3YHG4-lS <<<<
Talk soon.
Best wishes.
Faithfully,
Lee
Lee H. Baucom, Ph.D.
P.S.: If you find yourself "convincing," begging, pleading or manipulating, let's find a better way. Take a listen to this week's audio right here:
>>>> http://wp.me/p3YHG4-lS <<<<
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For those in the UK, on radio 2 after 1pm is a psychiatrist who is talking about men and depression and why men crack. Will post a listen again link
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Am listening at this moment - have also sent e-mail stating that depression can lead upto full blown midlife crisis and it needs to be taken seriously. Let's see if it's read out.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pm5rt
Here is the listen again link - I didn't hear it, so can't ascertain its usefulness, but if you go about an hour in, that's where it starts.
xxx
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Maze, Midlife (2012-04-25). Detach and Survive: A Book of Self-Care for the Wives of Midlife Crisis Men (Kindle Location 996). Midlife Maze. Kindle Edition. $5.
This is purely for the lbs [I know it says wives but would apply equally to husbands].
Nothing we haven't heard before but it is entirely devoted to the lbs & it helps to hear the message from many different voices.
From Callan's thread.
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Here is the listen again link - I didn't hear it, so can't ascertain its usefulness, but if you go about an hour in, that's where it starts.
I did hear it and it sort of deals with men and how they suppress and signs to look for. However it seemed to imply that men now have a raw deal as they are meant to be all singing and dancing as the perfect man - bit glib in places. Tended to focus on the suicidal aspects although there was one woman (not me) who emailed in a story that sounded like serious ML transition and that it had taken a few years to resolve. H didn't abandon or affair or wallow but there was certainly a trigger and violent sudden outburst where she thought he had lost his mind.
Listen to it - at least it's about depression and the sneaky way it has with men!
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Maze, Midlife (2012-04-25). Detach and Survive: A Book of Self-Care for the Wives of Midlife Crisis Men (Kindle Location 996). Midlife Maze. Kindle Edition. $5.
This is purely for the lbs [I know it says wives but would apply equally to husbands].
Nothing we haven't heard before but it is entirely devoted to the lbs & it helps to hear the message from many different voices.
Can recommend it very highly - saved me much time wasting and this was before I found this site. Really good sensible and practical advice.
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This is Wikipedia's summary of Jung's theory of the shadow. Wikipedia notoriously makes mistakes I know but this is interesting in addition to the fact that RCR uses some of this in her explanations about the shadow.
You will see MLC in this especially the reference to the 3-7 yr long descent!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)
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Maze, Midlife (2012-04-25). Detach and Survive: A Book of Self-Care for the Wives of Midlife Crisis Men (Kindle Location 996). Midlife Maze. Kindle Edition. $5.
This is purely for the lbs [I know it says wives but would apply equally to husbands].
Nothing we haven't heard before but it is entirely devoted to the lbs & it helps to hear the message from many different voices.
Can recommend it very highly - saved me much time wasting and this was before I found this site. Really good sensible and practical advice.
I just got this last night and liked it very much. Very timely advice.
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http://www.leslievernick.com/2013/12/23/more-clarity-on-boundaries-and-consequences/
Another one from resources on self focus and paving the way thread. Very useful.
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Another link to the latest pod cast from Lee Baucom. His words are in blue with the link at the bottom.
Do you feel like giving up? Are you trying to save your marriage and frustrated because things are where you want them to be?
Just the other day, "Sue" wrote me to tell me she was ready to quit.
She told me that her husband had been involved in an emotional affair, and she accidentally discovered the emails. When confronted, her husband told Sue that he did not love Sue and had been unhappy for years.
Sue decided to take matters in her own hands and save her marriage.
She changed herself and worked on improving the connection with her husband. In fact, Sue went into "overdrive" in her efforts. Several weeks in, she was exhausted, hurt and scared. Her husband told her that he saw the efforts, but it was too late.
In her email, Sue told me she was ready to give up, but wanted to know what I thought. She asked, "do I have a snowball's chance in hell of saving this?"
Unfortunately, I don't have a crystal ball.
But I do know this: Sue was at a very normal, very predictable stage in the process of a marriage crisis.
In this week's free audio, I will tell you the stages, and will also tell you one more thing: sometimes people give up just before a breakthrough. Sometimes, the resistance and frustration is highest just before a shift -- but people either give up or try to force it.
Do you want to know the secret on what to do? Take a listen to the audio. You can find it right here:
>>>> http://wp.me/p3YHG4-lW <<<<
As always, you can listen to the audio for free and without obligation.
If you are having (or have had) those feelings of frustration, just take a listen.
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Ok - I'm going to keep bumping this up because I have been listening to Lee Baucom's podcasts on ITunes and they are absolutely brilliant.
(Lee Baucom was my saviour in the early days just after BD when I didn't know what to do or to make of MLC and was in high anxiety/panic mode. I downloaded his e-book (now a newer kindle version) on save the marriage and listened to the 2 accompanying MP3s. One on midlife crisis marriage and one on affairs and the fallout. They SAVED me and this is way before I met this site.)
His words and tone are calm and reassuring. No religious overtones, just sensible, practical calming advice.
Whilst his headline is Save the marriage, the podcasts are not about how to save the marriage rather how to save yourself and then focus on the marriage afterwards which is the advice we are given here.
He doesn't say so but his experience seems personal as he hits so many accurate points but only when you are ready to listen.
I download his podcasts and listen to them in my car to and from work. Good way of multi tasking!
So if you have I tunes - go to podcasts, type in Lee Baucom in search box and there you go!
[/b]If not google Lee Baucom or go to www.savethemarriage.com
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Link to Amazaon kindle for Save the marriage in three easy steps.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Save-Your-Marriage-Simple-Steps-ebook/dp/B00FN77N1E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390559093&sr=8-1&keywords=save+the+marriage
I repeat this is not marriage counselling but it focusses on YOU and what you can do to change yourself and deal with the marriage crisis.
So some of the book may not be relevant but some will.
Let's put it this way I downloaded his e book which is very complex and from that I learned how I had made mistakes and what I needed to change about me. The rest I have left "on the shelf" so to speak for a later date.
Hopefully this information will speak to you as much as it spoke to me.
Pick out what is useful to you and leave the rest.
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I am going to create links from Lee Baucom's brilliant site savethemarriage.com
His podcasts are very helpful and recognise the crisis of infidelity and whilst he doesn't refer to MLC - some of what he says is already written by RCR and others. So this is a great way of re-inforcing that knowledge but while you are in your car or having a walk or ironing (god forbid)
This one is on how our thoughts fool us and really helped me understand the difference between the thought and the reality.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2013/10/your-thoughts-save-marriage-podcast/
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This is Wikipedia's summary of Jung's theory of the shadow. Wikipedia notoriously makes mistakes I know but this is interesting in addition to the fact that RCR uses some of this in her explanations about the shadow.
You will see MLC in this especially the reference to the 3-7 yr long descent!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)
That is a powerful summary. I particularly liked:
'even after the focus of individuation has moved on to the animus/anima, 'the later stages of shadow integration' will continue to take place - the grim 'process of washing one's dirty linen in private',[33] accepting one's shadow.'
The 'process of washing one's dirty linen in private' really applies to my H. He has a lot of washing to do.
Thanks S&D ;)
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Re: Lee Baucom
I don't have itunes & the link works.
Worth the 20 minutes to listen. It is NOT about marriage [in case you're thinking you have no marriage to save ??? ], subject is thinking & 'mental hygiene' [good term]. A thought is just a thought.
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Lots of his podcasts are about 25 mins or so and very few are about the marriage per se. They are about how the spouse (that is seeking help) can do it for him/herself.
He really focusses on changing yourself and the connection and rarely talks about reconciliation.
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Try this one - it's about FEAR and how our thoughts control us... once you've got past the camping rattlesnake story, it's very useful.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2013/12/fear-destroying-your-chances-saving-your-marriage-save-your-marriage-podcast/
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This is a link to the page of 4 podcasts.
I have listened to number 5 - how to get unstuck and it hit home once again
Do check this page out.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2013/08/
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www.livestrong.com has a lot of articles useful to we LBS. For me the me the article dealing with passive aggressive people was a lifesaver.
Knowing the various types of abuse you can be subject to is important ( there are around 20). Often behaviours we take as "normal" are really not and are abuse you must put a stop to...sometimes we discover we use abusive behaviour as well, which can be a shock. I posted a list on this site somewhere, I hope it stayed stickied.
Brad Yates on youtube.com has some EFT techniques that helped me.
http://psychology.about.com/od/psychosocialtheories/a/psychosocial.htm
is a link to Erikson's developmental stages and gives an accounting of what emotional development has to take place in ourselves and our spouses to be emotionally mature adults.
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I agree. I "found" Lee Baucom early on after BD. Simply stated and made sense. Had I not found It along with this site......I would of been a goner for sure!!
31andcounting
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Oh one more link that has been invaluable to me: http://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/
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I agree. I "found" Lee Baucom early on after BD. Simply stated and made sense. Had I not found It along with this site......I would of been a goner for sure!!
31andcounting
Lee's eBook was the first one I purchased immediately after BD. I also pulled down some of his short clips from Youtube. I still refer to his book regularly and the concepts he provides. It also came with some additional material & quick tips that got me started before finding this forum.
I didn't realize he had podcasts so will definitely check those out!
-OneByOne-
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http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2013/09/your-most-important-tool-in-saving-your-marriage-podcast-episode-06/
This is podcast 6 - This is a MUST for all newbies IMHO
It talks about the most important tool - YOU! Lee Baucom gives advice for looking after yourself physically, emotionally, spiritually and it really is exactly what we are taught here. Very sensible for those newbies who doubt any of the advice on this website....
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Watch this 3 min you tube clip - your life in jelly beans.
I watched it and know now that I will not let MLC drag me down and waste precious time wondering if.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOksW_NabEk
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A little something I found on my FB page this morning from one of my friends to me:
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658705524164074&set=a.137404192960879.17960.114265225274776&type=1)
A Psychologist walked around a room while teaching Stress Management to an audience.
As she raised a glass of water, everyone expected they'd be asked the "Half empty or Half full" question.
Instead, with a smile on her face, she inquired:
"How heavy is this glass of water?"
Answers called out ranged from 8 oz. to 20 oz.
She replied, "The absolute weight doesn't matter.
It depends on how long I hold it.
If I hold it for a minute,
it's not a problem.
If I hold it for an hour,
I'll have an ache in my arm.
If I hold it for a day,
my arm will feel numb and paralyzed.
In each case,
the weight of the glass doesn't change,
But
The longer I hold it,
the heavier it becomes.
She continued,
"The Stresses and Worries in Life , are like that Glass of Water...
Think about them for a while and nothing happens.
Think about them a bit longer and they begin to hurt.
And
If you think about them all day long,
you will feel paralyzed –
incapable of doing anything....!!!"
Remember to put the Glass Down
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Booboo..I like that, .makes perfect sense. :). Very good
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Just found this gem from Heart Blessings
http://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/new-posts/
There are more articles on the site also.
That article really hit the spot for me tonight! :-*
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Thanks Booboo, I am loving that site!
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Lee Baucom's latest blog and if you haven't caught up with any of his podcasts - then do so here. He really is a very useful person to listen to. No frills and pulls the punches when you need them.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/
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Just found this gem from Heart Blessings
http://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/new-posts/
There are more articles on the site also.
That article really hit the spot for me tonight! :-*
Thanks BooBoo , that hit the spot for me :)
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My pleasure. Hb has always been an inspiration to me and her posts have a very calming effect on me. Good therapy!
I loved her articles on 'the children of mlc'. She has posted a new one since, even better!
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Yes I read those first because I think we are seeing some of teenage rebellion H at the moment . None of us like him , he has a silly haircut and is very arrogant .
I will read some more tonight , I found them very calming just when I needed calming .
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Another one! How to stop keeping a ledger on our marriage!!
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2014/02/why-your-balance-book-marriage-will-fail-save-marriage/
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bump again for the newbies online now.
Will put some new useful links on very soon.
If you have any links - please post them on here. RCR's articles are the best and anything that helps us widen that knowledge is very useful.
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shameless plug http://www.familyinnocence.com/ click on the blog link..I have about 2000 posts in 30 categories about marriage ,divorce , MLC
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Just had a quick look at the mid life crisis post and it's rather dismissive of a midlife crisis existence and makes the assumption that if it does exist then we should all have one or at least - it's only a handful of people that might experience a rather darker crisis leading to depression.
Not convinced by that argument at all I'm afraid. Too many of us on here can't be that wrong.
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Also looked at "avoiding marriage meltdown" article. It is useful to have that in your mind if your marriage is beginning to struggle AND you are still together with NO BDs etc.. and it may prove useful to examine and explore how you can reconcile your marriage once the fog has lifted and re-connection is under way.
IMHO and it is only my opinion, though, it's not that productive an article for anyone trying to come to terms with what the MLCer has done. The marriage is already "dead" at that stage and both the LBSer and MLCer have to go on their separate journeys.
However thanks Rover.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Qm9cGRub0
C/o Fidelle and Calamity - thank you ladies
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Hi all....just thought I'd share the link to my blog. I've finally got the time to write now that my college year is over. :)
http://beautyinsteadofashes.blog.com/
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Well done 2.roads. Thanks for sharing :)
31andcounting
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2.roads: I am in awe of your strength to put yourself out there. Your blog is amazing! I will be awaiting your next post. Thank you for sharing your story.
CT 8)
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http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2013/09/your-most-important-tool-in-saving-your-marriage-podcast-episode-06/
This is podcast 6 - This is a MUST for all newbies IMHO
It talks about the most important tool - YOU! Lee Baucom gives advice for looking after yourself physically, emotionally, spiritually and it really is exactly what we are taught here. Very sensible for those newbies who doubt any of the advice on this website....
BUMPING THIS UP FOR ALL NEWBIES!
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Hi all....just thought I'd share the link to my blog. I've finally got the time to write now that my college year is over. :)
http://beautyinsteadofashes.blog.com/
Eloquent and informative as always 2 roads. I do miss your lessons. They kept me going in the early days.
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Songanddance...I'm also working on a printed version of my lessons...with additions, etc. I'll let you know when it's complete. :)
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Here's one I think could be helpful to those re-connecting, especially after an affair:
https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/after-an-affair-in-marriage-am-i-who-they-want?utm_source=Article+of+the+Week&utm_campaign=cec1874357-aotw_05_15_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ba782628b7-cec1874357-312831325
From Rick Reynolds:
“Do I even matter to him?” Sarah asked. She told me how she had allowed Chuck to move home last month and even though he said he loved her he still seemed to be pinning away for his affair partner. She was torn wondering why she even let him come home if his heart was still with her. “Am I a fool for even trying to work on the marriage? Three days after discovering the physical part of the infidelity, we sat down and he told me everything, but he cried when talking about his AP. In the past month he’s taken steps to make things better and he hasn’t contacted his AP, but she has tried to contact him. He says he loves me and he wants to help me heal but the only time he gets emotional is when he talks about HER. Can you imagine how hard it is for me to feel he is really remorseful? It’s making me an emotional wreck. Is it possible that he’s really committed to me and the marriage? At times he seems so depressed and hopeless. Is he really choosing me?”
Overpowering hopelessness engulfs the depressed. Dreams that once lit paths toward an exciting future are extinguished and replaced by the nightmare of consequences that arise from infidelity. Even after an affair ends, the dreams of a life together with the affair partner often remain. These lingering fantasies create a significant barrier for the hurt spouse feeling chosen and for the unfaithful spouse in finding passion for the marriage. It would seem the only remorse, compassion, or life left in the unfaithful spouse is expressed when they share their feelings about what their affair has cost themselves or even their AP rather than their spouse. While troubling, this is very normal within the detox phase of recovery.
If the unfaithful spouse falls in love with the affair partner and feels they've found their soul mate, new dreams are cast for the the future. Dreams that once included their mate are now replaced with those constructed in the fantasy world of the affair that they now believe will bring greater happiness. It’s very common, although not guaranteed, that those involved in affairs come to their senses and begin trying to put their lives back together. While rationally they understand the need to stay and work on the marriage, their feelings lag behind. Rewriting their future creates a more significant loss than the loss of their affair partner. They may finally be able to see the flaws in the other person, but the dreams of how their life would be are still appealing.
Knowing something is not true doesn't necessarily make the allure of what they imagined dissipate. I can know the truth and and even act on that truth, but it doesn't always feel true. For instance: I know that when I wrong my wife an apology from me will help mend our relationship. Therefore, when I’ve neglected her thoughts or feelings I may choose to apologize. Just because I know this truth and chose to act on it does not change the fact that I feel that apologizing will humiliate me. Pride drives that feeling, so I choose to act on truth instead. Though an unfaithful spouse may know the right thing is to return home, end the charade and work on the marriage, the thought of doing so may produce feelings of confusion and rage.
If the unfaithful spouse erases their dreams of future happiness with their mate, they will seem more hopeless in the short run. It certainly doesn't mean they don't love their mate. Love is a choice and choosing love in the absence of feeling in no way diminishes the depth of love. It does however impact how that love might be perceived by the betrayed spouse.
Doing what you know to be right is difficult indeed if, due to a loss of vision, you can no longer trust your feelings. It's like flying an airplane in the dark; you know how the plane is flying by the instrument readings. You also know if you ignore the instruments and fly by what you feel to be right you'll crash the plane. You must follow what you know to be true, not what you feel. All too often I see unfaithful spouses who have tried to “do the right thing” but they don’t feel it is doing any good. They wear out and give up and cave into chasing fragile, disjointed feelings instead of pursuing what is real and lasting. Feelings are wavering and deceptive, and there is far too much at stake to be guided by our feelings alone.
After an affair often, if the unfaithful spouse seems to be grieving the loss of their affair, the hurt spouse feels as if they've made a colossal mistake. It's easy to assume they aren't committed, but that may not be true. More often than not the root problem isn't a lack of commitment to the marriage but a lack of shared vision.
This isn't just a problem for the unfaithful spouse. Dreams of the future for the betrayed spouse aren't simply rewritten, they are shattered. The impact of the betrayal causes them to question their past, their judgement, their image of the person they married, their present and their future. The devastation of infidelity isn't their only barrier; they've also lost their vision of how life was going to be. The same hopelessness demoralizes both partners leaving both grasping for shared dreams that could energize their life together.
That isn't to say couples have to always feel passionate about their future together. But in the absence of passion, at the very least, they need to be committed to doing the next right thing. At the same time they need to once again begin dreaming together and be willing to imagine a life together both would enjoy. Recovery is hard, but it doesn't have to remain passionless.
After an affair for the unfaithful spouse, moving forward isn't just about terminating their affair. It's recreating a future vision with their mate. Recovery for the hurt spouse isn't just grieving and forgiving, it requires the courage to once again dream with their mate regarding what they want, and creating shared vision for their life. There is one caveat here: You must address the initial trauma of the betrayal before you can begin healing the relationship itself. Once you have found some outside help and are able to talk rationally with one another, casting a new vision for your future will be extremely helpful in giving you something worth working towards.
Here is a jumping off point for those who need to create an exciting vision of meaning and purpose. To create new vision you first have to discover your mate all over again. This is certainly not a definitive list of everything that can or should be discussed, but it’s a great start. When you’ve finished set aside more time to talk about your goals for your life.
This exercise is to be shared together. Schedule time together to go through each question. I suggest finding a minimum of thirty minutes at a time. You could consider skipping your favorite television program to begin the process. You will not be able to complete this in a single setting and it might take weeks to complete, but the effort is worth it. Try to be as open and honest as possible.
Take turns going first in answering the questions. There are no right or wrong answers. This will cause you to consider your future with one another. It’s well worth the time.
1) These things have made me proud….
2) As a child these were the things I dreamed of…
3) These things I have yet to accomplish, but hope to do…
4) These things I hope for during my life…
5) These things I fear…
6) These things have caused me the most personal embarrassment or shame in life…
7) These people I have admired… (why)
8) In the past 24 hours these things I could have improved on…
9) Theses things have challenged me… (at least 5)
10) These beliefs have guided me…
11) In my heart of hearts this is the type of spouse I want to be…
12) These things I still hope to experience in life…
13) These are unfulfilled dreams I have for you…
14) These sufferings I’ve seen you endure…
15) These things I hope for you…
16) These things I admire about you…
17) These goals I still hold for you…
18) These strengths I see in you…
19) These are the hopes I have for you…
20) I see these wounds in you…
21) These events have molded me…
22) These wounds I have healed from…
23) As I go forward in life I would like to become more…
24) This is how I’d like to be remembered when I’m gone…
25) Growing up these were my biggest hurts...
26) As a child this is what I was most ashamed of…
27) In our marriage these things have made me proud…
Creating new vision requires a desire to understand your mate rather than getting your mate to understand you. Take the time to dream about the life you’d both like to have. This will put you on the path towards a shared vision, but it will most likely require some outside help to truly heal. Consider EMS Weekend to learn from other couples in the same situation and grow together as a couple.
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thank you Stillpraying, exactly what I needed this morning :)
31andcounting
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This isn't just a problem for the unfaithful spouse. Dreams of the future for the betrayed spouse aren't simply rewritten, they are shattered. The impact of the betrayal causes them to question their past, their judgement, their image of the person they married, their present and their future. The devastation of infidelity isn't their only barrier; they've also lost their vision of how life was going to be. The same hopelessness demoralizes both partners leaving both grasping for shared dreams that could energize their life together.
Thanks SP - this sums me up at the moment and I'm nowhere near re-connecting but this voices my current thoughts when I have down times.
Good link and excellent questions which we LBSers should at least address the ones about ourselves now and then a bit further down the road to see how much we have grown.
Thanks xx
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On 'happiness' :) :) :) .
http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory
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This has to be the best podcast yet and is so good for newbies.
Dr Lee Baucom has done it again and summed up what we learn on this forum and website articles.
Listen and learn.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2014/05/trick-to-saving-your-marriage-save-podcast/
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This has to be the best podcast yet and is so good for newbies.
Dr Lee Baucom has done it again and summed up what we learn on this forum and website articles.
Listen and learn.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2014/05/trick-to-saving-your-marriage-save-podcast/
That was worth listening to - thanks ;)
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Love that site!!! I listen all the time.
Thanks for sharing.
31
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Me too. In fact I have put every recording onto my little Dictaphone which is my aide de memoire as I am at that stage of a woman's life where memory is not my strongest point....(tee hee)
My I pod has a volume problem so my little D and I go everywhere. That means that I can pick on any podcast and listen to it again and again. Interestingly I usually end up picking at random a podcast that is so applicable to my state of mind at that very moment.
God moves in mysterious ways!!!
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Just been sent this little clip on FB by my niece!!
How determined are you to win your race??? What would you do when life trips you up?
http://www.godfruits.com/2208/runner-falls-during-the-race-of-her-life-then-gets-up-and-shocks-the-crowd.php
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As quite a few of the posts are about victim/rescuer mode that we find ourselves in - have a little look at this link and download this absolutely brilliant little book.
You can kindle it or put it on your kindle app on a computer or laptop or smart phone I guess.
It is really one of the best shortest reads on what the victim/rescuer/persecutor cycle is - how to get off it and how to avoid getting back onto it. Excellent tips on being able to step back and observe too.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drama-Triangle-Transactional-Analysis-Chunks-ebook/dp/B00AXKGHZY/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1401270838&sr=1-1&keywords=the+drama+triangle
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As we all know, MLC hurts the LBS like mad and the affair is possibly the most painful and destructive aspect of it.
I do like listening to Lee Baucom's podcasts and he has issued a couple of podcasts on midlife marriage crisis.
However - lately I have been listening again to the two podcasts below. I chose to listen to them again as I have been struggling (18 months in now) with the affair and just doing a bit of cycling with my own negative thoughts. It is normal but I found these two podcasts have put me back on track.
The first podcast is about the LBS having to deal with the affair and the second is aimed at the spouse who commits the affair. Very interesting about 10 minutes in talking about reality and then at the end about accountability.
Newbies - please listen to them to understand that the affair is not your fault nor is it "real life" but please realise that the affair is part of the MLC and my only reason for putting this on is to help you understand that affairs are temporary (in relative terms) and indicative of a much deeper problem - in this case MLC.
If you are new in - then trying to utilise Lee B's suggestions for post affair actions are not helpful just yet. Just listen.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2013/11/dealing-emotional-physical-affairs-podcast/
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2013/12/you-had-an-affair-how-to-recover-save-your-marriage-podcast/
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Thanks for the reminder songanddance :)
I like listening to his podcasts too....its been a little while since I pulled one up !
(hugs)
31andcounting
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Bump!
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http://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-stages-of-grief.html
Here is a really useful informative website on the seven stages of grief.
Whilst the site is aimed at bereavement, the stages and side discussions are all useful to help you especially newbies understand your feelings.
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Excellent article on the grief stages Song and Dance. Thanks for posting
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Thanks Pixie - good to know that it's all helping.
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Two more podcasts from Lee Baucom
This one is for all newbies and even some "oldies". IT is about the affair and what fuels it. If you are reeling from the shock of an affair and want to know what drives someone to do this and its potential longevity then this is for you..
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/?powerpress_pinw=1556-podcast
This second one is from a newish website he has called thriveoloy.com. Today this was what I needed and wanted to hear - how to get out of my own LBS fog....Absolutely brilliant and sent me into work this morning with a big grin on my face!!
http://thriveology.com/?powerpress_pinw=235-podcast
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S&D~ I listen to both podcasts also....... he is always right on the mark for me :)
thanks for sharing!
31andcounting
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p027nbn3
This is a three minute podcast called thought for the day BBC radio 4.
I heard it this morning and whilst it's not about MLC per se, it is talking about the embarrassment that a minister put himself through in showing explicit photos to an undercover journalist. It also refers to Walter Mitty moments/fantasies we all go through but how we make the choices to carry them out. It is literally a very good thought for the day.
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This study was published today and shows what we've always asserted, that happiness is at its lowest between the ages of 45-54. It also correlates this phenomenon specifically with Western countries.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2813%2961489-0/fulltext?_eventId=login
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Yup, BD was almost 4 years ago. My H was 46.
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Good article on MLC
http://www.drbelove.com/2011/06/affairs-that-initiate-a-midlife-crisis-what%E2%80%99s-going-on-why-they-work-and-why-eventually-they-usually-don%E2%80%99t-work/
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Come across this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11 - Science Says Lasting Relationships come down to 2 basic traits - kindness and generosity
from the article "The couples who were still together after six years had “turn-toward bids” 87 percent of the time. Nine times out of ten, they were meeting their partner’s emotional needs."
Since most of us here have been married/partnered for decades, what happened to our spouses kindness and generosity? How did it erode? Yes, yes, MLC. ::)
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This article is very interesting: http://www.bu.edu/cte/files/2012/01/McKee_Chronic-Traumatic-Encephalopathy_2009.pdf
30% of the folks had mood/personality changes.
The damage continues to accrue for DECADES after the initial injury.
Even sub concussive hits can cause problems over time.
The only way to know is over time if they get worse and worse.
For me, the lesson is that football is not worth it. Sorry fellas.
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FTT, I can't read this article due to some sort of security settings. If it is about football players get hit or getting a concussion, my xH did play FB in high school and broke his collar bone twice. Not sure how badly he got hit and what other injuries he had but he did get worse to be with over time...many more years than pre-MLC takes I believe. It is becoming more well known how these injuries have affected these players in recent years and it is not good news for them.
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Off the concussion subject but I was reading an article on depression and the study found that people who suffered from depression, depending on duration of symptoms, were more likely to suffer from alzheimer's or other forms of dementia due to the altered chemicals in the brain.
Altered for too long = dementia. Not good news for the MLCer?
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Ocean Lady, try googling the words at the end of the link.
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I know my X's father was a window washer, fell off the scaffling landing on a car. He was never the same. Turned ugly and very violent and ended up in prison.
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Don't know if this is similar, but my BIL was a gardener/ play area handyman and he was up on scaffolding fixing some swings and fell through it. He eventually lost his job due to other factors but a couple of years later, having suffered major depression he had a seizure, then it was established that he had MS which had lain dormant from birth.
My BIL has behaved in the exact same way as my h has. His wife is now in the process of leaving him and he was absolutely terrible to her steaming back to just after his accident. She too was blamed for everything over the course of some 7 years now and my BIL has never relented, yet stays in the same house. Prior to this she was his everything.
Sd
X
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Savoir, I don't doubt a bit that there is a link between depression and dementia/ Alzheimer's. I attended a training by a brain expert a couple years ago that covered that very topic and showed brain scans from both and how they're similar along with showing degradation of the brain throughout years of depression. I had a Discussion thread about it at the time.
As for concussions I think it would depend on which part of the brain is affected. I've been knocked out once from a head butt but not during football. Despite all the advances in protective gear and rule changes concussions remain a real risk. Look up the wrestler Chris Benoit for an example of a worst-case scenario with concussions.
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The article correlates the clinical symptoms with the area of the brain affected for each case study. They had MRI information for each case.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/upshot/study-finds-more-reasons-to-get-and-stay-married.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=MostEmailed&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&src=me&pgtype=article&abt=0002&abg=0
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Isn't that great ;D Read it this morning too
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They really have no clue.
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ha, I am educated (BA in chemistry) and xH is educated (senior software engineer after many years - AA in mathematics). Both of our parents were never divorced. But when midlife crisis arrived, he ran. Obviously marriage and best friend were not enough to stop any of his stress. He found an OW to take care of that, as many others did also. His bestie now is the OW and he wants to forget about his family. The replies that I read, had no idea or no mention of midlife crisis or a low point in life. This proves that if MLC does not enter your life, you have no idea what it is or means.
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Interesting read.
Not sure I go along with the whole article but a lot makes sense.
I feel a good marriage isn't so much about education,etc., it has a lot to do with how you were raised. A dysfunctional family life can breed more dysfunction.
Then if you add in MLC any marriage can blow up. The article doesn't mention that. Of course that's because it's not real, right? ;)
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"It concluded that being married makes people happier and more satisfied with their lives than those who remain single – particularly during the most stressful periods, like midlife crises."
Clearly these authors have no idea what a MLC really is. At least they got the stressful part, right!
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Actually, I disagree... And I hate to be the dissenter, but I think we all end up here because most of our spouses were personality disordered and, for that reason, or another, ended up with a NEGATIVE MLC. There are people who have SERIOUS MLCs and do not leave their spouses.
When someone targets their family, or their job, or their religion, or something other than their spouse, in their MLC, spouses don't end up here. I have told here before of a man I know having a horrible MLC career change, and his wife ended up leaving him. He finally broke away from his FOO and their expectations, gave up the high six-figure job and is enrolled in a teacher ed program. His wife HATED that. He was truly struggling, he even showed occasional shark eyes and confused thinking, but he never wanted to leave his family, and now his wife is making it worse for him...
But people do have serious MLCs without leaving their spouses, and that's where the marriage IS a support. The flaw in the generalizability of this study is that they looked at people who got married and stayed married and their difference in happiness. The goal was to see if it was marriage that makes people happy, or if happy people marry. They found that controlling for pre-marriage happiness, people who stayed married were happier. The interesting follow-up would be to find out about the people who DIDN'T stay married. Were they less happier to begin with, thus selecting out--I tend to believe that about a LOT of MLCers--that they really never had the ability to be TRULY happy... Or, did M make them unhappy... Lots of questions, but I do believe we overlook other forms of MLC--the ones that are bad, but are more self-focused and not other-focused... Love and light, ll
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Actually, I disagree... And I hate to be the dissenter, but I think we all end up here because most of our spouses were personality disordered and, for that reason, or another, ended up with a NEGATIVE MLC. There are people who have SERIOUS MLCs and do not leave their spouses.
I do agree with LL, although here we might call those transitions instead of crisis.
Interesting discussion.
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I don't want to tick any of the guys off, but I really feel men are happier married than single. Most of the time a man will remarry long before a woman will.
A lot of women end up enjoying single life more. At least that's my observation. : )
I do agree people who stay married are happier in their older years. Maybe it's keeping the family unit together. No step this or step that. Plus all the memories are kept in tact.
jmo
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I don't want to tick any of the guys off, but I really feel men are happier married than single. Most of the time a man will remarry long before a woman will.
Well from my POV a man cant get married again without a woman....
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Ha ha...good point Old Pilot!
However I was referring to divorced women, not single women. Single women usually want to get married. Divorced women not as much. I suppose it could be that most women already had their children by the time they divorce and they feel a little more free'd up. Children are most likely older and she is not looking for a father for her kids.
Divorced men tend to marry again...and sooner. I'd say maybe for the companionship...I don't know that, though.
Men? What do you think?
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Women are just more social than men, and have an easier time finding sex, if they want it... So, we can have everything without getting married! I had this conversation with one of my LBS male friends one night in a bar. He said, Lisa, if you stood up right now and said "Hey, I need to get laid, is anyone willing to help me out? There would be a line down the block and all the men at all the other bars would get in it too. But if he stood up and did it, HE would probably get arrested, and slapped, not sure in which order... And it's true.
The Sweet Potato Queens say women need a man for four things, I think, right, and I don't remember what all of them are, but the only one can be filled by a gay guy, and that's the romance part. I get all the love, support and social interaction I need from my GFs, the only thing I need a man for is sex... Even as I contemplate M, I am still not sure I want to live with anyone 24/7. I LIKE my alone time and my own space. We'll work it out, but I do know a couple who share a house, but have separate quarters--I think I like that...
And OP, I do think around these parts, we discount those OTHER crises as transitions, not crises, but I still disagree. How would you qualify the difference in severity? By all accounts, my H is not in "crisis." He just replaced me. He didn't lose his job, become an addict, or totally bail on his kids. He's an AH in many ways, but me and his kids are the only ones who see it, and we don't tell other people about it. This other guy I know is CLEARLY in CRISIS. He is losing his family because he wants to leave the financial rat race. People tell him, "man, don't do this to your family," but he is in despair... And I think he's kind of a hero, but it goes against what we value as a society... I don't know, thinking out loud, but what is the difference between an MLC and an MLT? Is it simply leaving your marital family?
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I too, believe that a transition is different than a crisis and may be due to strong familial ties and strong religious values. One of my very best friends has a husband that went thru a transition, not a crisis. He lost his sense of humor, which was large by the way, and got cranky as well as lost his motivation for home improvement for about a year. Then, for about 1.5 years he got very quiet and only spoke when spoken to but he did continue to go to church and be involved with family gatherings. My friend stood by and let him be in his own world....somehow she knew he was going thru something. He got family responsibility breaks, through his job, by having to go on many work trips overseas for a few weeks at a time. He is a VP of Procurement and has a very stressful job. My friend does think that these breaks may have helped him in the long run and she did not push him to talk at all. He is finished with his transition now and he is much better husband (if that is possible), he was great before this happened IMO. He does not talk about it and she does not ask any questions. He simply said that he thought my H was going thru a MLC when this all started...he was nearing the end of his transition and never said anything else about it.
This friend, has held me up through the worst of my pain when H walked out and the entire 3 year divorce...she went with me to the Final Hearing for support. Her advice was sound and very welcome, even my L listened to her feedback during lunch at that long hearing. However, after almost 5 years of this journey, she does think my xH will never change and better to let the whole thing go. She does not really understand the crisis part nor how long MLC takes. She thinks he is lost forever...which I tend to agree with. By the way, she is Portuguese and her H is Cuban, they are both college educated and both very religious. They grew up in the same neighborhood in NJ and have best friends ever since. So OP is correct, I think this article is talking about a MLT as the low-point in life, not a true MLC!
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Well from my POV a man cant get married again without a woman....
In some states, a man can get married without a woman.
Ha! Ha!
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Well from my POV a man cant get married again without a woman....
In some states, a man can get married without a woman.
Ha! Ha!
I know I am missing the joke, are we talking about the state your ex is in? :)
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No JL, you didn't miss the joke, you got it, I can tell by your response. Need to go see if Tennessee legalized gay marriages yet or not, maybe he needs to move back to Florida. NOT, want him as far away as possible from me at this point in the game, too close to inheritance time. I think I've already shared my wealth with him, no more funding from me or my family.
He needs to find a rich man to support him, he lost everything. I often wonder if he realizes he got screwed yet.
There is an old saying, one hundred and twenty submariners go down as one hundred and twenty men, and come back up sixty couples.
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oooh, that's nasty Tsunami!!!! I used to work with nuclear navy guys at the nuc plant many years ago and I heard many crude jokes, but I never heard this crude joke!! Yuck! LOL
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I am bumping this up as I suspect a lot of newbies don't know about this useful mine of information.
I fully intended to keep posting a new link to Lee Baucom's save the marriage podcasts and also his thriveology.com podcasts. They support everything you learn here and really help you focus on your self development.
www.savethemarriageblog.com and www.thriveology.com
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When the other woman becomes the wife:
http://www.emotionalaffair.org/when-the-other-woman-becomes-the-wife/
Take heart all you LBSers who have to face this.
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:) :) :) :) :) :)
;)31
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Come across this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11 - Science Says Lasting Relationships come down to 2 basic traits - kindness and generosity
from the article "The couples who were still together after six years had “turn-toward bids” 87 percent of the time. Nine times out of ten, they were meeting their partner’s emotional needs."
Since most of us here have been married/partnered for decades, what happened to our spouses kindness and generosity? How did it erode? Yes, yes, MLC. ::)
From the article: We’ve all heard that partners should be there for each other when the going gets rough. But research shows that being there for each other when things go right is actually more important for relationship quality. How someone responds to a partner’s good news can have dramatic consequences for the relationship.
My wife was still responding positively to my good news several months after BD and I have treated her with kindness and generosity both before and after BD. Two indicators of a relationship that is going to last. Still I was served with divorce papers six months after BD, 5 days after she enjoyed herself and gave me a nice gift at a family Christmas party at our house. MLC is totally wacky.
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http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201408/are-we-being-ruled-our-toddler-brains
Excellent article put on HT's thread by Kikki.
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Bump for the newbies who have arrived in the last few days.
This thread is an extra resource for you and is in addition to the fantastic articles on the main body of this site.
This might also help too.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2014/07/5-steps-to-through-midlife-marriage-mess/
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Just wanted to share this, I first saw this on Gimlan's page. I have read RCR's article about distance/pursuer but this seemed to make so much sense to me and clarified for me the real implications for pursuing and what it looks like. I've now stopped being "kind" and replaced with bare bones politeness. Very eye opening.
http://www.joanmarielartin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/distancer.pdf
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Thanks Sunny,
Second page in - the above is an excellent article.
Get past the flowery metaphoric first few paragraphs - and it is stunningly accurate and really supports what RCR has written. Really clear. Newbies - this is a must read.
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Oh yeah, extremely accurate i would say.
Would like to know what happens when a pursuer meets another pursuer. Any ideas?
I liked how it showed up that the distancer is predominantly lonely and depressed from the start . When i distanced my h did not pursue as such, he went in search of another pursuer instead.
Sd
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That article was a real eye opener. I didn't realize how much of a pursuer I was. I am glad that I am more aware of that behavior now.
I liked how it showed up that the distancer is predominantly lonely and depressed from the start . When i distanced my h did not pursue as such, he went in search of another pursuer instead.
That is exactly what my H did :o
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This isn't a link or article but it is probably the best song yet to describe the LBS journey. Jesse J (who is a young woman I admire tremendously as she grafts and earns her accolades) this is her latest song. Read the lyrics - they are possibly the mantra of the month!
So much pressure
Why so loud?
If you don't like my sound
You can turn it down
I got a road
And I walk it alone
Uphill battle
I look good when I climb
I'm ferocious, precocious
I get braggadocios
I'm not gonna stop
I like the view from the top
You talk that blah blah, that la-la, that rah-rah $h!te
And I'm so done, I'm so over it
Sometimes I mess up, I f-up up, I hit and miss
But I'm okay, I'm cool with it
I still fall on my face sometimes
And I can't colour inside the lines
'Cause I'm perfectly incomplete
I'm still working on my masterpiece
And I, I wanna hang with the greats
Got a way to go, but it's worth the wait
No, you haven't seen the best of me
I'm still working on my masterpiece
Those who mind don't matter
Those who matter, don't mind
If you don't catch what I'm throwing
Then I leave you behind
Gone in a flash
And I ain't living like that
They talk that blah blah, that la-la that rah-rah $h!te
Go with the punches, and take the hits
Sometimes I mess up, I f-up up, I swing and miss
But it's okay, I'm cool with it
I still fall on my face sometimes
And I can't colour inside the lines
'Cause I'm perfectly incomplete
I'm still working on my masterpiece
And I, I wanna hang with the greats
Got a way to go, but it's worth the wait
No, you haven't seen the best of me
I'm still working on my masterpiece
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This isn't about MLC--it is about Addiction. But if valid, I thought it had some good points to ponder as it relates to MLC. It would explain why an extremely unhappy person would become addicted to an OP. It might also explain why the LBS getting a life and being happy would be an attractive force. There are some other thoughts I had but I decided to throw it out there and see what others come up with. Anjae may be able to shed some light as to if what the author says about Portugal is true.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html
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I completely agree and my year of smoking after BD illustrates it.
I used it for comfort and 'me time'. I only crave them when hurt or angry recently.
It's exactly the same with comfort food. After the initial huge weight loss, I now eat nonsense in the evenings when bored or lonely. When I am busy or looking forward to something, I eat healthily.
Food, cigarettes, alcohol and even coffee act like surrogate friends to me!
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Just came across this one. Not sure if it has been posted before, but I thought it was interesting....
"From Irritable Male to Run-Away Husband: Anatomy of a Mid-Life Marriage Meltdown" by Jed Diamond.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/45834667/From-Irritable-Male-to-Run-Away-Husband-Anatomy-of-a-Mid-Life-Marriage-Meltdown
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Now he can write another book called Irritable Wife Syndrome or he can call it what it really is, MLC.
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Just wanted to share this, I first saw this on Gimlan's page. I have read RCR's article about distance/pursuer but this seemed to make so much sense to me and clarified for me the real implications for pursuing and what it looks like. I've now stopped being "kind" and replaced with bare bones politeness. Very eye opening.
http://www.joanmarielartin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/distancer.pdf
It is very interesting reading that we all have a bit of both , my H would want me close then push me away . The part in the article that mentions a distancer wanting their partner to have an interest as long as it did not take away from them was so true . H encouraged me to take up riding again and then sulked when it threatened him .
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Just came across this one. Not sure if it has been posted before, but I thought it was interesting....
"From Irritable Male to Run-Away Husband: Anatomy of a Mid-Life Marriage Meltdown" by Jed Diamond.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/45834667/From-Irritable-Male-to-Run-Away-Husband-Anatomy-of-a-Mid-Life-Marriage-Meltdown
Thank you for posting that it was very interesting .
Callan
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http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.ca/2015/04/when-good-men-retire-from-game.html
"So, any word from the girly girl front?"
And all he said was, "No, I have absolutely no energy for that. I just want to pay the mortgage and go hunting."
And that was it. That was the summation of his past year of dating life. "No, I don't have the energy."
It wasn't an editorial comment. It wasn't one of "I tried, but dem womenz be crazies." It had no passion or emotion in it. It was merely a statement of fact:
"No, I don't have the energy for it."
And though I had intuitively known this for a while, it was once again one of those things that had yet to make its way to the frontal lobes, turning itself into a concrete observation.
Men do burn out.
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Yup men have less testosterone and thereby less drive as they get older.
It is basic biology!
Makes sense to me!
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You know, I see this in my X right now. He's 50 and is exhausted most of the time. He works A LOT and when he gets home, he's home to stay.
I, honestly, couldn't imagine him bar hopping anymore.
After bd (4 years ago) he tried to party, went to a few bars...but then just stopped. He doesn't drink and told me when he looked around all he saw were lonely people. He would NEVER have saw that 30 years ago. Sex drive in high gear and it was exciting. Now it would be a challenge.
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/irrelationship/201407/is-your-relationship-real
This is a really interesting blog about patterns of NOT being in a relationship. I think many of you will see your MLCers, and maybe even yourselves in these descriptions. Rather than always looking for hard personality disorders, or other psychological diagnoses, I bet a LOT of MLCers were simply afraid to be in a real relationship, or didn't know how, so when the going got tough, it was easier to run. Anyway, just a bit of education, I hope it helps someone. Love and light, ll
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As always, you find ways to challenge ourselves and our belief systems. Thank you Lisa for always making me think.
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Interesting analysis. I don't think it applies in my sitch but it may in others. Thanks LL.
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I have not seen this website posted here before but if it has sorry for the repeat information.
http://www.angriesout.com/index.htm
There is a lot useful information for the LBS as well as the children that are suffering too. I really like the way it is presented - it is easy to understand and offers good solutions.
Hope it helps someone out there :)
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http://markmanson.net/love#.hx0xsq:RPBS
Love is Not Enough--not for marriages & not for the MLCer & OP either
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Great article HT.
This part especially stood out to me.
You can fall in love with a wide variety of people throughout the course of your life. You can fall in love with people who are good for you and people who are bad for you. You can fall in love in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. You can fall in love when you’re young and when you’re old. Love is not unique. Love is not special. Love is not scarce.
But your self-respect is. So is your dignity. So is your ability to trust. There can potentially be many loves throughout your life, but once you lose your self-respect, your dignity or your ability to trust, they are very hard to get back.
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Interesting article, HT.
But I think the article shows the usual confusion, it sort of equals falling in love with love. They are not one and the same thing. Falling in love is not enough, love , real one, may be enough.
Why? because real love includes "respect, humility and commitment". In love is more closer to passion. Not that a romantic relationship, a marriage, a marriage like relationship can exist without some sort of romance/romantic feelings and in loveness.
Otherwise it would be a friendship or the relationships we have with our relatives. Nothing wrong with those, but they are a different type of relationship.
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Anjae, I read it that the writer was commenting on agape love vs infatuation (in love).
Worded for an audience that is used to Hollywood versions of what love supposedly is.
Just my take.
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That was not my reading.
My reading was that two married man with children were being compared. Marriage cannot live on agape love.
One of the men, Trent Reznor, has real love for his wife and family, the other, John Lennon, does (did) not.
Descart falling in love, a necessary part of the whole process, if we are talking about marriage/marriage like relationship is a bit silly.
Also, didn't we all pretty much got very upset when our spouses told us that they still loved us but where no longer in love with us?
If being in love is so irrelevant, why did we all become so upset? After all, our spouses all said that they still love us.
Being in love has a component of infatuation. I don't think being in love exists without infatuation, smaller it may be.
For me these type of articles end up confusing things even more, some how leading people to think that there is something wrong with being in love or infatuation.
There isn't. It is true we may fall in love, be infatuated with several people thoughout our live. Most times it is just that, we never act on it, it washes away on itself.
Hollywood version is not that far from many people's marriages/relationships. We all know enough people whose marriage/relationship ended when the infatuation went away.
On the other hand, any one with half a neuron will know that the hollywood version does not match a real marriage.
The falling in love thing is nothing new. It was just that, in the past, people did not married for love. They married for money/status/to have children to preserve the family name-business/because it was the thing to do, etc.
So they were free to fall in love/be infatuated with whomever they wanted. That would not break the marriage. And they could jump from lover to lover.
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Agape (/ˈæɡəpiː/[1] or /ˈæɡəpɪ/;[2] Classical Greek: ἀγάπη, agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη IPA: [aˈɣapi]), which means love: esp. compassion, forgiveness, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God.
My understanding of agape is that that is exactly what marriage is all about.
Also, didn't we all pretty much got very upset when our spouses told us that they still loved us but where no longer in love with us?
If being in love is so irrelevant, why did we all become so upset? After all, our spouses all said that they still love us.
I didn't get that line from my MLCer until about 18mths after BD. Since I had read it here, it came as a bit of a surprise after all of the antics, and I have to admit I laughed at that point at the reliability of the script.
(laughed out of shock I guess)
There was plenty for me to be upset about given the destruction he was about to wreck/wrecking on my and my children.
The way I understand it is that 'in love' is the same as infatuation. And yes I agree Anjae, to reach agape love we first need to get through the infatuation.
I think he's talking about when agape love never comes, and we mistake the drama and chaos for true love, it's time to review (eg our MLCers and the OP)
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I never got the I'm not in love with you. I got the reverse. I'm still has in love with you as ever, but I no longer love you. It was said only once and I told Mr J I did not believed him about not loving me.
He said I was right and said he would never say again he did not loved me. He never said it again.
Agape love is not married love. Agape is the love without any sexual attraction. Marriage requires the existence of Eros. Married love also needs Philia and Stroge.
Agape is the stage we need to reach when dealing with a spouse in MLC.
Check here the definitions of the (ancient) Greek types of love:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love
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Although eros is initially felt for a person, with contemplation it becomes an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself.
Agape is also used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one's children and the feelings for a spouse
From your link.
I think we both mean the same thing, no matter which way it gets categorized. :)
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Well, when I learned the Greek types of love, Agape was for people that we did not have a sexual relationship with, since it does include Eros. Agape pretty much is the universal love, the love one has for all human beings.
So, yes, it can have the feelings, like the feelings for a child, but it is deprived of the carnal love.
Therefore, alone, it would not do for a marriage. For a marriage you pretty much need all four types. Agape alone will not do.
It could be put like, Agape exists, or can exist, in a marriage, but a marriage cannot live only with Agape love. So, marital love is composed of the four kinds of love, that together form true love.
Wiki is not so elaborated as University. :) And one has to remember that the Greeks would pretty much feel Agapé, and maybe only Agapé, for the spouse since the spouse was not someone they tended to be attracked to. Yes, there were children, but only because they were necessary.
RCR has a view more similar to yours in her article about Agapé. Mine is a little different, since for me Agapé, even if it could be applied to a spouse, only works in a marital relationship if used with the other three.
Otherwise it is the type of love that I feel for my family and that is not the same type of love I used to feel for Mr J.
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It could be put like, Agape exists, or can exist, in a marriage, but a marriage cannot live only with Agape love. So, marital love is composed of the four kinds of love, that together form true love.
I think you're right about that Anjae
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The longer this goes on. The more I feel like an idiot for second guessing myself.
Such as? If I could have loved her more...... maybe she would have been able to "feel it"
If I could have shown her in different ways........ then she would have known.
Fact is....... she couldn't feel love. she had none for herself..........
It was her all along.
And let's face it. Without love......... LIFE SUCKS
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Yes rugged. You sound as though a light bulb has come on in your head :)
MLCers can't feel anything, the depression keeps them numb and the replay behaviours make them feel something, at least for a moment. The numbness inside continues though, so they keep trying new replay behaviours, looking for the original high.
Just like addicts. Looking for the dopamine fix.
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The thing that is so bizarre about all of this.
I had been going through the marriage making excuses for her behavior. She was depressed because she had a hysterectomy, empty nest, her dad is sick, her dad dies, she has to deal with a health scare.............
I was certain. Her depression was temporary. She was going to come out of this. This is what marriage is......
All of this support leads up to BD...........................
Now. The bizarre part.
I am certain that I did something wrong. I caused her to fly off the handle. I drove her to another man.....
I take every nut and bolt out of myself. Figuring out where I went so terribly wrong.
I have to make peace with everything I've been and everything I am.
I have to make a brand new plan for the remainder of my life.
I'm driven to take every nut and bolt out of xw. (I have time on my hands) I examine her. I need to understand. I figure out exactly what went wrong in her life. I figure out why she has been depressed her whole life.......... I figure out that she hates the little girl that was molested. I figure out that she buried the little girl inside of herself and denied her any compassion.
Then? After all of this......
The payoff is to live alone. The payoff is simply to realize that she is insane and as far as I can tell............ She will never figure out what is wrong with herself!
And.... If I tried to enlighten her? SHE WOULD FLAT DENY ALL OF IT!
Human behavior is amazing and terrifying.........
If a person cannot feel love or extend love to the child inside of themselves..........
Appears to be hopeless
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I was certain. Her depression was temporary. She was going to come out of this. This is what marriage is......
Rugged, this is what is so confounding about MLC. What makes mid life depression different to depressions at other times of life? Possibly the perfect storm of hormonal and biochemistry shifts and the memories of often traumatic events that this seems to bring up in their brains.
This is a good descriptor if you haven't already read it. There is some debate about whether chemical imbalance is the cause of mental health issues or not, but despite this, this describes things well. I love his car analogy.
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html
I am certain that I did something wrong. I caused her to fly off the handle. I drove her to another man.....
I take every nut and bolt out of myself. Figuring out where I went so terribly wrong.
I have to make peace with everything I've been and everything I am.
I have to make a brand new plan for the remainder of my life.
I'm driven to take every nut and bolt out of xw. (I have time on my hands) I examine her. I need to understand. I figure out exactly what went wrong in her life. I figure out why she has been depressed her whole life.......... I figure out that she hates the little girl that was molested. I figure out that she buried the little girl inside of herself and denied her any compassion.
You've got this
Then? After all of this......
The payoff is to live alone. The payoff is simply to realize that she is insane and as far as I can tell............ She will never figure out what is wrong with herself!
And.... If I tried to enlighten her? SHE WOULD FLAT DENY ALL OF IT!
Human behavior is amazing and terrifying.........
If a person cannot feel love or extend love to the child inside of themselves..........
Appears to be hopeless
I know it seems crazy that there is nothing that we can do, nothing that anybody can do, but it seems that until/unless they come out of whatever ails them on their own, they continue to live in their distorted reality worlds.
It's tragic, it's cruel, but I am one who could not believe this to be so.
I tried and tried and tried to get my MLCer to see that he needed help.
It just made what was already very ugly, even uglier.
All I can do is to try to walk away, and see if he ever catches up with me.
We have no way of knowing whether this is possible or not. It really is dependent on the individual MLCer, and how messed up they are.
We might have our answers many years down the track.
In the mean time, we have to let them go and live our lives as if they were never a part of it.
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kikki,
In the mean time, we have to let them go and live our lives as if they were never a part of it.
Normally....... I would be the type to run from this sitch. I adore women.. I could find another woman that I found interesting and fun to be around. I would add up all the misery she has caused me and count my lucky stars.
The problem?
Her cement head holds 30yrs of my memories. Things that I enjoyed and loved and only SHE knew about..........
Bu$hit set-up.
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I sure do hear you rugged. I feel exactly the same way about my MLCer.
Our heads finally figure out why this might have happened to them, our heads tell us that we know we can't help them and to let them go, but our hearts and all of those memories make it nigh on impossible to do so.
The LBS conundrum. :-\
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Our heads finally figure out why this might have happened to them, our heads tell us that we know we can't help them and to let them go, but our hearts and all of those memories make it nigh on impossible to do so.
The LBS conundrum. :-\
All the logic, all the comprehension, all the belief I have about MLC is washed away with three words....I miss him :'(
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I had a conversation with me best friend. She's divorced and remarried and calls him her soul mate. I believe it. However she told me that eventually I won't love H anymore and he will just be S's dad. I'll find someone else who makes me happy and H won't be but a memory.
I however disagree because I have maintained all 21 years as H being the love of my life. I don't think I will ever get over him. I'm just learning to live without him. But I know, I will never love anyone like him.
I wish I could not love him and feel the way my friend fels about her x. I just know in my heart I never will and that's what sucks about all of this.
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I think there are some people whose marriages were not the best. My brother is divorced and remarried and he told me he realized he had made a mistake on his honeymoon, but they stayed together for 17 years. He said he finally stopped loving her 8 years after their divorce (although by then he had been married for 5 years).
But, for some of us, this is not going to be the case. It is not because we want to carry this pain around, it is because what we had was real. Maybe another relationship will bring great times and deep love, but no, I do not see me ever feeling satisfied that our marriage ended.
Sometimes I wish I could get hypnotized so I could erase all thoughts and memories of him from my head for this is so tiring and I am no longer amused or interested in this state of mind, but somehow helpless to go in a different direction...something will not let me.
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XY,
Sometimes I wish I could get hypnotized so I could erase all thoughts and memories of him from my head for this is so tiring and I am no longer amused or interested in this state of mind, but somehow helpless to go in a different direction...something will not let me.
I know exactly what you are saying. I have come up with all of the logical reasons to drop the stand. I've come pretty close to washing my hands of this disaster.
Then? I feel that there is hope for her. I feel that, possibly, a divine intervention. Something..........
It is like she is in a coma...... And I just wait.
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Everyone said at the start "lbs chooses"... This is what they mean IMO. It a choice to not move on. I'm not sayin it wrong to choose to not move on, but it is a choice. I believe there are few things we can not accomplish if we really WANT to in life. Standing, moving on... Both are choices we makes and sometimes neither feels like a good option.
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This link has been making the rounds on a few threads, but I wanted to get it posted here.
http://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_rethinking_infidelity_a_talk_for_anyone_who_has_ever_loved
This thread has 15 pages, so I'm locking it. Look for Ted Talk link reposted on the new thread here--
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7143.0