Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: justasking on May 15, 2010, 09:52:34 AM
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This isn't my situation but a friends.
Her OW has been back home for 3 months. The pa with OW has finished but there is still texting occasionally between them. Unfortunately they work together daily so staying apart is difficult.
Any one got any advice on how to handle this? She is trying to detach but finds it difficult as her H is 'normal' towards her in every other way except no physical love yet.
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While the OW is still involved he is still in replay, She should try to stay detached and dim/dark as best as possible. Validate, and give him space. It is hard but it can be done.
This time is best spent working on improving the LBS, Be the best MOM she can be and GAL, do hobbies, keep her mind off of WH.
Read as much as you can on MLC.
Knowledge is power!
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Hi Justasking,
Does your friend not want to post herself? I'm not saying she should, this is fine, but just checking. My best friend Lingy wouldn't post either--she said she couldn't remember her password, but that was likely an excuse since she could have used the forgot password function. I posted for her.
Her OW has been back home for 3 months. The pa with OW has finished but there is still texting occasionally between them. Unfortunately they work together daily so staying apart is difficult.
There is not a litmus test for each stage. Many believe that an OW cannot outlast Replay. What is more true is the likelihood that an OW will not outlast Replay. But I've seen plenty of situations where the OW remains through out Liminality. This becomes especially fuzzy as they approach the boundaries between stages--drinking from the Liminal Pool and running back to Replay, but remaining close to the water's edge.
High-energy Replay behaviour may die out as they approach Liminality and they will display greater depression, but it will seem low-grade and thus you will wonder. We all want obvious signs, but most things are subtle.
But that is not what this is about--Replay versus another stage. This affair is not over. I don't know how long he was gone or when the Bomb was dropped, but I will bet he will cycle away and leave again.
I went through this precise scenarion on multiple occasions with Sweetheart. He was a 3-monther. Home for 3 and gone for 3--until I broke that pattern. But even then he remained a 3-monther in what he wanted to do. Sweetheart would move home and I would often have himm sleep on the couch for a transition the first few weeks--I caved on this one quite a bit. But I did not cave on resuming sex. I have a no-bed-hopping policy and a must be tested for STDs policy. He gave the appearance of trying to be good for a couple of weeks and then the OW contact began to resume--if it had stopped at all. As it resumed things gradually became worse at home.
Sometimes he was obvious--leaving evidence such as paperwork from OWs work or his cell phone with text messages where I could see them. But some of it was more subtle. He would arrive home about 15-30 minutes later from work. I knew that they often asked him to stay late, but not always and thus I did not know when he was truly staying late or not. I simply knew he saw her--at her work on such occasions.
At about the 2-month period he began escalating more severely and taunting me with his leaving. On one return he kept saying the next Monday was the day he would leave, but Monday kept going by. I always knew that he would leave and it would be soon.
Are they in counseling?
When Sweetheart was still at this stage he was not ready for counseling--refusing if I requested--so I stopped pushing, knowing that was for the future.
If he refuses counseling, that is a big clue that he is not ready.
Given all of that, I think that if she is strong enough to deal with an at-home MLCer, there are advantages to his being in the home. Odds are he will leave again, but she now has the opportunity to Pave the Way with him directly present and she is learning valuable commun ication skills about dealing with a difficult person. If she can handle it--that is key--this is beneficial to Standing and can enable a smoother return when it is Real. Sweetheart and I did much of our repair during his multiple times he came back. Since I knew those were likely not permanent returns, I did not allow the cycling to hurt me even more. For many this type of situation causes the LBS greater damage, but understanding what it is and how it can be used to benefit can soften that damage. It still hurt, but I knew what was going on and that helped me.
Is she in counseling?
She should be seeing a counselor on her own and request her MLCer attend with her, but accept it if he refuses--for the time-being.
Detaching with an at-home MLCer is even more important than Detaching when he is away. She needs to be able to getaway. Take long walks, go for a drive. Go to a park with a lot of greenery.
He may seem normal now, but that may change. She needs to be patient. No asking about sex yet. If this continues, perhaps she can ask--rather than initiate--at about the 6 month period.
She needs to be prepared for the possibility that this crisis is far from over.
HUGS,
RCR
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Thanks RCR
No she won't post so I am happy at this time to help her.
Her H asked to come home and wanted the marriage to continue. He is very tactile with her but no sex although they share the same bed. She knows that they continue to text each other as she got one by accident!
H seems much les depressed, participates in family life and pays my friend compliments. Its just like an addiction with OW. Not sure whether he initiates recontact or he does.
One problem is that if he goes again she can't have him back. His children who are in their 20's and late teens and still at home have stated the boundary that she will have to choose next time them or their dad. My friend is in a real dillemna. I think her instinct is that he needs to go but is afraid because that will be the end of their marriage.
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One problem is that if he goes again she can't have him back. His children who are in their 20's and late teens and still at home have stated the boundary that she will have to choose next time them or their dad. My friend is in a real dillemna. I think her instinct is that he needs to go but is afraid because that will be the end of their marriage.
I'm sorry, but the children should have NO say in this, the problems such as they are, are between the HUSBAND AND WIFE, and do NOT involve the children at all. Now, that's my two-cents worth...the children are using controlling and manipulating behavior, not to mention the use of "emotional blackmail" to get THEIR way, and should NOT be allowed to happen.
My son was 15 at the time my husband was going through his MLC, OW was in the picture, and son had stumbled into us having another one of those "can't win" argruments", observed his dad talking to me like I was crap, got angry, demanding that I get a divorce because of how his dad was treating me. I reminded my son that the problems were between me and his dad, and had NOTHING to do with him.
And I meant EVERY word I said to him. No matter what happens, the children are taken care of....and she needs to remind them of that.
Those children may set those type of boundaries, but IMHO, your friend is entitled to do whatever she feels she needs to in regards to her marriage. That is a SEPARATE relationship from the one that exists between children and parents.
I do NOT want to come across as harsh, but people have a right to make decisions as they see fit, and children should NEVER be allowed to dictate what a parent is going to do/not do in a situation.
Our son is now 23, in the process of moving out on his own, but he NEVER interferes with problems between us; he learned that during my husband's MLC..apparently a good example was set for him during that time.
I hope it all works out with your friend.
P.S. I re-read what you said, and see the children are in their 20's, late teens...why are they still living at home? Is their "boundary" because this is interfering with their comfort or something? Maybe they need to move on, move out and get a life...they are being totally disrespectful toward their mother, by asking her to choose between them and her husband.
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I agree that the children should have no say in the matter. Can she explain to them her views and is she strong in her views? Perhaps she needs to work on realizing what she wants out of this and strengthen her resolve along with her inner self. If she's letting the kids boss her around like this, she may have some self esteem issues. Teen/young adult or not, she is the mom and they have to respect her. I'm almost middle aged and I would never think to tell my mom what she can and can't do. Perhaps they mean it to show they are protective of her, but it doesn't come across that way.
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I couldn't agree more about the children. It is their way of trying to protect her.
One of the children who has her own house found her dad and OW ina position you wouldn't want ofind you dad with OW so she has a lot of anger.
When this firast occured I think her biggest mistake was not to make it plain to their children that she would have him back if he wanted to come back.
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Ah, that explains some of it. Seeing dad in that position is not the best situation, is it? It's not too late for her to make it known to them what her stand is.
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Just a quick update.
The contact between OW and H now appears to have finished. H seems more settled and loving towards my friend. He is starting to talk about his journey.
My main concern now is that he is home to soon and will run again at some time in the future.
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How do you set and inforce boundaries about contact with OW when you have no tangible proof of the affair? Do you bluff? Do you just say you KNOW and don't reveal how? Do you threaten to contact the OW and ask (is this a really bad idea?
I know know know something is going on but don't have a way to monitor or enforce my boundary so it complicates my conditions for staying and leaving a bit. His actions speak a thousand words.
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My two cents' worth is that contacting OW is a bad idea.... let her be the one to go nuts, not you.
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You don't want to bluff and you probably don't want to lay down boundaries that he will only cross and will bring you away from your goal.
I'm two months into this and I am ignoring OW. She's a symptom, a band aid, and she is not going away. If I lay down boundaries now, he'll cross them and I may lose him forever.
Just my two cents.
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A boundary is for you. Contacting the OW is not a boundary. It is not enforceable, it is controlling, it is pushing the OW and the MLC'er closer together. Everylne else has given you good advice DON"T!
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Update
The texting between my friends H and OW continued 'hidden' until the end of May. It seems to have stopped now. He went into OW withdrawal and my friend left him alone.
He is now more depressed and withdrawn than previously, moved out of the marital bed and onto the sofa. Occasionally he continues to justify going i.e you never showed me love, nothing has changed, I don't want to stay here etc. My friend suggested he move out as he stated he didn't want to be at home. He has made no move to do that and infact is giving reasons to stay at home i.e decorating. My friend is happy to let the journey continue and when he needs it withdraw to reflect and think.
As someone said the journey isn't over yet.
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The journey isn't over but he is moving which I always feel is a good thing.
She should not suggest that he move out. Unless she wants him to.
Keep giving him space. He will act so much like a child. Secretive.
As he goes further into depression he might even want to committ suicide.
Tell her she is doing great and that moving onto the couch is no big deal.
Let her be kind with her actions and lead the way for him to heal himself.
Once he gets to the bottom the only way after that is UP!
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Thanks OP
I have had a long chat with her today and a cup of coffee or two! I have printed off a lot of the info I have about MLC and we talked about his journey and what she wanted. She wants to stand for her marriage but was confused to what was going on and taking it personally. I have explained how to detach and how it will be hard especially in the same house. I have also explained that she she stop giving him ultimatums as its a pathway to nowhere. I also told her he is in turmoil and totally confused hence the change in his manner from day to day.
Hopefully now she has some insight she will pull back and give him space.
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I'm in the same house and mostly detached. I say mostly because I don't know that anyone ever truly entirely detaches without moving on. H could always do something to get me back attached, if only for a moment.
It's easier for me perhaps as I had dealt with H's EA before. However, I believe the secret is really making an attempt to be empathic. To see things from his side and feel some of his pain. I'm not saying to make excuses for them but rather to just see things from the other side... it may allow her to step back and be kind next time he spews.
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M&H
I know that you are living with your husband as he is involved in a PA. How long has the PA been happening? Do you see any cake-eating behaviors going on? I'm just curious because my husbands EA has been going on for 18 months and he was very comfortable living between the two worlds yet continued to taunt me with his leaving in subtle, annoying ways. It got to be too much and it was clear I was becoming the doormat. Boundaries were set, in terms of, as long as he was in contact with other woman he could not be commited to the marriage in the way I needed, things kept get worse and worse. He needed to end contact or leave. I believe he was stuck in a cycle and I took the chance because he is very passive and depressive MLCer and the energy in the home was becoming toxic to everyone. Now I feel like we're at a crucial point to see if he will grasp at Replay to avoid the Liminal fall or if he will slip. Anyway your story interests me because I feel like you are one of the few whose husbands have remained home during the OW affair.
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In thinking about the chance that I may cross paths with OW today, I'm wondering how many LBS' have been exposed to OW/OM. Do MLCers generally try to keep this seperate and private or do they flaunt it like they are shameless and proud? It seems that I have not read much about paths crossing with OW/OM on this site. Just wondering what the other experiences are with this.
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I have not crossed paths with OW myself. But H flaunts her to all the family and all over town. I pray I never see Ow. H has took her around everyone in his family and is so proud of her. H is shameless and relentless in doing this. H wants everyone to except her . Told our kids they are getting married they are already looking at wedding rings. I hope you the best today. My prayers are with you.
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LOL. I'm reading another interesting thread from another site just about the same exact thing. In fact, for a second, I thought you had cross posted.. then realized the thread I'm reading is from 2006.
Yes, some flaunt, and some do not. Mine is hiding it from as many as he can... although he started by telling his friends about "them" but then after I exposed, it's almost like the shame put them back underground.
In fact, OW is my "friend" on FB. I've strongly thought recently about de-friending both her AND H or maybe just her. However, I also know that she reads my blog and so keeping her around helps get her crazy - the more she reads about me and my life, the more jealous she will become, no? It's not like I'm playing games, just doing what I have always done, only now she's F-ing my H. LOL.
PM me if you want me to get you the link to that OW thread on the other board.
Maybe time for us to go back and read the very encouraging words of RCR on this topic? http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/understanding_infidelity-otherwoman.html
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Ah, Facebook. What would cheaters do without it? OW is listed as "in a relationship". She fails to mention that he is married to me and that she is also still married. How sweet. My H "unfriended" me EARLY on. Strange, but that was one of my first slaps in the face. Major red flag when your own H won't be your FB friend!
I did not see OW today. I think that it is strange that he flaunts her also, but seems to have the wherewithall to keep her from direct contact with me. She has not been to church with him, either. If he is so proud, why bother? Yet if he feels guilt, then why be proud? I don't get it. I know we're not supposed to focus on them, but knowing that she is in town and that D8 is so happy to be around them...makes me want to barf.
Last time OW was in town, they saw me walking and circled the block, stopped in parking lot to watch as I chatted with a friend in her car, then circled around again none too subtly before driving away. WHAT? Who knows. I wonder if OWs have sick fascination with us or something? Weirdos. Anyway, kudos to you for keeping her in the loop of your life! Too funny.
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WM
H OW has listed on her fb in relationship also. And also fails to mention with a married man. These people are really sick.
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Hurt 01,
Yes, they ARE sick! Isn't it bizarre to know that someone is proud as a peacock about being in a relationship with a married man?? Makes me want to comment, but I'm not her "friend". I wouldn't any way. Just strange. Sorry. :( I know how you feel.
And D8 just informed me that H/OW are going to Mexico soon and had to get a passport photo for the new baby. How STINKIN' sweet!!!!!
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WM
My heart truly aches for you. I pray for you every day. I dont know how you do it. I know all this hurts and they dont care. At least so far my S24 has stood his ground with H . God I wish this rollercoaster ride was over. I am sick and want to get off. Tear it down , burn it something. I may never go back to an amusment park. LOL. And I use to love rollercoasters.
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Just passed H and oldest son in OW's car.
Now oldest wants to spend the night with them/baby/OW's D. So much for keeping OW hidden.
I could just barf.
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Re: OW I wonder how the OW feels about being relegated to the bathroom!
Spouse checks phone on the side trying to be discreet, and runs to the bathroom to call or text.
I lol when my H gets his "reminders" he has to go potty!
I am sure others have seen this too!
Re: exposure. Shortly after i discovered H had moved into motel room w/OW, I sent her an email. It said something like: I know you are involved w/ my H. Please respect our 23 year relationship and our children. We need to repair our M, so please end your contact with him now.
It gave H added respect for me and told him where I stand. She tried to make me all evil about it, but I what I wrote was indisputable and respectful. Definitely put the first chink in her armor (from his pov). (and it was in writing so she couldn't make stuff up.)
I didn't know about MLC then, but it is not something I regret.
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LGO, that was brilliant! iHh
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My husband kept his under wraps; but I found out, anyway..it's hilarious how "kewl" they think they are about keeping secrets that get found out regardless of how hard they try to hide them. :)
The Lord told me where to find her contact information...and you should have seen the look on his face when I spouted it right at him, LOL!!
I first got the look of "How did you know that?" Then crap hit the fan, as he lied, denied; and dug himself in deeper.
Things got much worse as he was trying to end it..I don't know how she did it, but she somehow got our home phone number, and burned that phone up..wait a minute; back in the day you could get ANYONE's phone number off the internet. LOL!!!!!
He nearly bought the farm, plus all the trimmings; as I nearly got down the gun and shot HIM! Incidentally, the gun we had disappeared; (not long after OW Discovery) for a little over a year before his brother in law gave it back to him in front of me....I said, "Great, if someone had broken into the house, I would have been looking for a gun that wasn't there!" LOL!!
Girls, I was a mean woman at that time......and a very mad one, as well. :)
You have to remember that OW/OM is the MLC'er's problem, not yours; and the "true luv" they supposedly feel is NOT love at all....it is some sick attraction between the MLC'er and the object of that attraction.
Neurotics attract neurotics...both parties have problems or they wouldn't be together; as a well balanced sane person wouldn't even THINK of getting involved with a MLC'er.
Years ago, when I was researching affairs and such, as part of my learning; and I don't know if the board is in existence anymore, I found a link to a OW type board where people posted their affair breakups...it was shocking to see the OWs going through the SAME kind of bottoming out the LBS is subjected to.
It was pretty intense.
I read with wide eyes; and got quite an eye opener on that. I had NOT known they went through these same things....
But, boy, did I learn a great deal from that.
I also remember an OW I actually worked with years ago;(this was before my husband's MLC) who used to come in every Monday without fail, and tell us about her wild weekend with her married man...I tuned it out for the most part, but did ask her one day what the heck she got out of messing around with another woman's husband. She said she got her bills paid, and a house to live in....said that his wife knew, and didn't care.
I remember thinking; "no, bet she doesn't know anything, but if she did, she'd probably kill you."
One odd thing I also remember was that although she had sex with the man; she said he wasn't very good in bed at all; said she had to "fake him out" most of the time, as he didn't know what he was doing.
Something else, that's for sure. I dug for a name; don't know what I was thinking, but it seemed to me someone needed to tell his wife what was going on, but she would NEVER tell me his name, nothing about him.
Tell you something else, God forgive me for saying mean things about people; but this OW was as ugly as sin, no kidding...she was as skinny as a rail, had a strident voice, and wasn't attractive in any way that I could see. Wore alot of makeup, but make up doesn't make up for UGLY as a painted mud fence.
So, it's NOT about looks; it's about meeting needs that are different as the MLC'er is different....I'm not really sure if the man she was seeing was a MLC'er or WAS...doesn't matter...it was WRONG on all counts.
Plus, just sayin', they are USING each other; in the name of "true luv".
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I have never crossed paths with OW knowingly either. H and OW ran in the same circles and she eventually started working for him in his entertainment company as his secretary. She is 24 years old and H will be 35 next month. Something else I also noticed is that for the past 5 years or so, mostly all of H friends has been younger than him. I don't think he has had any friends his age for awhile. These friends were reckless, liked to cheat on their significant others, party hardy, etc.
Anyhow, I didn't find out about her being the OW until H actually told me and he had no choice because they had started a clothing line business together. He asked me if I could take pictures of our kids modeling some of the pieces that he had designed, which I did willingly. Of course, I had no idea that OW was the co-owner of this business and they were helping each other run it. Well, after H put the website together with the kids pictures that I took modeling H/OW clothing designs, he gave me the website address. When I went to view it, there was H and OW in individual shots of themselves on the front page. H had his head down and his eyes were covered with his hat. The OW was posing provacatively with her legs crossed and grinning like a chesire cat. After I saw that website is when H confessed about the extent of their relationship because of course I was going to question him about why her pic was on his site. H said he had no choice because she was the co-owner and he couldn't get around not doing it because OW would probably want to know why her pic was not posted on the website.
Funny thing is that I was not too shocked as I had seen H and OW in pictures together with their arms around each other at the promo parties that H previously held. But then I noticed that there were a lot of shots of OW among the other pics that were took at these parties. It was like he was obsessed with her. How could I have been soooo blind about those two because the signs were there. I never thought H would do something like this and I felt stupid because I never questioned his behavior.
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I think we all feel blind now that we look back and put the pieces together.
My question now is not so much about my exposure to her as it is the overall method to their madness. In my sich, H and OW have 8 kids together. They seem to thrive on the appearance of being family folk. This is bizarre to me, the way that they seek to incorporate the kids into their madness as much as possible.
I would think that most OW/H or OM/W combos want to be ALONE or out having fun, being free. This chic is trying to be June Cleaver. I don't get that. It's like they are little kids playing family.
I just don't understand what the validation of the kids in the grand scheme of things means to them. It's weird.
Don't get me wrong, I've learned (after birth of their baby) that it is a waste of my time to focus on them at all. I have had to let go completely of what I cannot control. In doing so, I'm somewhat thankful that they are doing this so that my kids are not mistreated or ignored or neglected.
Still I find the whole thing very strange and wonder when the Disneyland effect will wear off on them all.
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It's difficult to balance the MLC and the affair. My feelings are quite jumbled and difficult to separate. If anything, I have put the affair in the background.
Along the lines of the "affection" topic, I have a few questions about what others have experienced during the MLC affair.
Somethings I have been pondering:
Did your S ever apologize for the affair, and if so, when? Mine has not. He apologized for the way I found out.
When/if you knew S was going to see the OM/OW how did you respond? How did you respond when you suspected they were in contact? I've had a few "free" weeks from the possibility of H seeing the A. She's been on vacation. I suspect they were in contact via email or texting though. The hard part is that H has been more "normal" during this time period. Laughs and jokes with me, shows caring, etc.
Did you or spouse tell your children about the affair? Up to this point I/we have not told our children, but I am beginning to think they have a right to know--no secrets. They are older teens. What was the MLCer's reaction to the exposure? How did the children react?
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My W emotional affair is becoming known throughout our social circles. I have tried to be strong but it hurts. My daughters know something is going on but can't quite put their fingers on it. I have not told them anything. I was texting a female friend, good morning and good night and my wife had a fit. I told her we were just friends but she would have nothing to do with it. Yet, she is writing long love letters to this man in England and he writes to her about how much they love each other and care about each other and I just have to deal with it.
It is very frustrating, but I have a new plan. I am not talking to anyone about this except on this forum. I am not calling or texting anyone. Instead, I am going to go and hang out with my friends (male), study, and work. No more issues. That way there will be nothing for me to worry about or deal with later. Hopefully, she will never discover this forum.
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Hopefully, she will never discover this forum.
Don't let her use your computer. Log off the website, don't bookmark it. Reset your computers history.
This is what I do. It is like the football coach giving the opposite team the playbook.
It has happened to me and too many other people to mention.
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Hopefully, she will never discover this forum.
Don't let her use your computer. Log off the website, don't bookmark it. Reset your computers history.
This is what I do. It is like the football coach giving the opposite team the playbook.
It has happened to me and too many other people to mention.
Another thing I've learned very quickly is to use private browsing when I log onto this site or others from my home computer. How you get to private browsing varies between IE, Safari, and FireFox, but it is available on all three. Remembering to log off is important though.
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He has not apologized for having the affair but apologizes frequently for "putting you through all of this". He is secretive about his activities, especially now that I know where she lives and works, her name, etc. I'm sure he will never admit having a job in Connecticut from now on, but it's obvious that if he says he working on Long Island, that is close enough for him to either come home, stay in his hotel or drive up to see her. Since he doesn't come home, I assume the worst.
I saw my husband's sexual attraction to me as a way of making the adultery partner crazy. He revealed to me she would throw a fit when she knew he was coming home to see the kids so I have allowed him to come and go as he pleases. Plus, I thought it would be an opportunity to "pave the way" for reconciliation in the future. After all, if I'm not getting "face time" it is easier to forget and demonize me.
Now, after going "dim" he is acting controlling - actually much like his old self - and I'm not so sure I want to be involved with him as long as the affair is going on. It's my new dilemma. I guess I'm only recently getting tuned in to which patterns indicate he is off to see her. He travels for business and she lives a couple of hours away.
My 15 year old son asked me point blank if my husband had cheated on me so I had to answer him honestly. I didn't elaborate and I explained that Dad wasn't in his right mind due to MLC and that I would do everything in my power to keep our family together and that we would be ok no matter what. He admitted he was afraid that he might not be able to love his Dad but I told him to just wait and see. He also said he was angry that I couldn't just make him snap out of it and come home. He said he saw weakness in his Dad and that was disappointing. I told him no matter what, he is NOT the "man of the house" even though some people will tell him that. It is not his job to fill in for my husband. I told my husband my son knew about the affair and he was ashamed but it didn't stop him although I have to believe it will factor in to the desire to dump the OW. My 10 year old daughter does not need to know. She has been told that Daddy doesn't think he loves Mommy, but he's not sure. She does see things on T.V. that she will remark on - some commercial - and she'll say "that's bad... it can make people break up!" I tried to protect my children from this but my son knowing has force/allowed me to seek detachment and stop trying to control the situation.
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Ah -- I've never heard of private browsing. I just log off, clear history, etc. I use a Mac, and Safari -- what do I click on?
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TandL--I'm not on my mac right now. I often use FireFox on the Mac, but with Safari I believe you go the "file" area on the toolbar and click private browsing. I know I found it when I used the Safari help section and searched for private browsing.
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I found it -- it's under the Safari label on the toolbar. Thanks!
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My H has not apologized for the A. He's still in it! He has said, "I never meant to hurt you. You are my wife and I hurt you."
He has not recognized that the kids are hurting because of his behavior. His rationalization there is that his parents fought all the time and they should have D'd. It would have made life more peaceful for him and his bro. I replied to that one with: My parents fought all the time and then D'd and still fought. Pre-D was better. AND H and I didn't fight...disagreed yes but fight??? Like abuse each other?? not til monster appeared, and then it was pretty much one-sided.
I started telling the kids 2 years ago, (DS13, DD16, DD19 now) that dad was depressed, like a mental illness like Grandma has, and he needed to work on it by himself. I saw their questions were leading to self-blame, so I did fill them in OW and more info on depression and infidelity. When they saw me not taking responsibility for his behavior, it helped them to not do so. (I didn't know about MLC) This did not happen right away but over a period of a year where H was back and forth. They have been most hurt by his neglect and focus on OW. It is hard to explain why, if his behavior has nothing to do with them, why does he ignore them. Now, 7 months into this S, their expectations are zero. They watch ME!
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My H has not apologized for the affair, but, like most of your spouses, has apologized over and over for hurting me. I have not told my S about his dad being with someone else; however, my H did sneak OW in to meet my S without my knowledge, under the guise that she was a friend of a friend - YUCK!!! I was mad and he acknowledged that it was not a good thing to do and apologized for doing it.
I too find that if he is in good with OW, he is affectionate towards me; he wants to see me more, etc. However, case in point last night, if things are not so good, he doesn't want to be around me. That hurts too.
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I was texting a female friend, good morning and good night and my wife had a fit. I told her we were just friends but she would have nothing to do with it.
I would just like to offer a word of caution on this. Even though you are viewing this as a "friend" contact, you should be very careful not only how it looks to your wife, but how it looks to the person you are texting. Times like these when affection has been withheld for long, long periods of time we can become very vulnerable to the attention from others. Just be careful that you aren't sending out the wrong message, to your wife, to your friend, or most importantly to yourself.
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My husband has not apologized for the affair. It's still going on. We had an inciting incident which resulted in him being asked to leave although he had made the decision that he would anyway the day was sooner. OW H relatives showed up at my door to confirm the affair because they didn't think I knew. My husband thinks he told me although he never confirmed anything. I felt the whole thing intuitively and felt we had reached enabling (cake-eating). Anyway during that incident he came and tried to talk to me. I used that time to plant some seeds since I knew he was going. For a brief moment tears welled up and he choked out the words "I'm sorry....pause......my actions". I was detached and made eye contact just listening waiting. He immediately ate the emotion wiped his tears put on his tough guy mask, said "but" (it is what it is attitude) and continued to put his stuff in the car.
I've seen no remorse. In fact he actually showed some remorse for her and the fact that he could of broke up her family. That was last year BD, it ended for three weeks and reignited, at this point her family is broken up, he's living at his parents and I am in NC/severe dark.
They don't apologize because they've stuffed those feelings. If they felt them they wouldn't be able to continue the affair or the denial. They must lie to themselves to do what their doing which is incredibly ugly and desperate.
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They don't apologize because they've stuffed those feelings. If they felt them they wouldn't be able to continue the affair or the denial. They must lie to themselves to do what their doing which is incredibly ugly and desperate.
It is not true that those feelings, such as remorse, cannot coexist with adultery. For some MLCers their feelings are acute...heightened. I don't mean the in-fatuation, I'm talking about the remorse and guilt as well as empathy. Some do not apologize because they have stuffed those feelings, some don't apologize because to do so would be to acknowledge them, thus making them real and once something is real it is much more difficult to deny and avoid.
Some are empathic sponges and in the dysfunctionality of crisis are unable to separate their emotions from their feelings and they are unable to separate them from those of others. For them, attitudes and emotions are contagious. A desperate and needy alienator is a powerful pull because this person seeks an emotionally connective high with which a pathological empath can bond.
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RCR,
what is the difference btw an emotion and feeling?
Do you have any information and insight about the dynamics of a crisis when both H and OW are in MLC? Does it make any sort of difference?
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RCR,
what is the difference btw an emotion and feeling?
Do you have any information and insight about the dynamics of a crisis when both H and OW are in MLC? Does it make any sort of difference?
Buggy, I too have wondered about the crisis when the H and OW are in MLC. I suspect that is the case with the OW in my sitch given her age and the few bits I know about her from my H. No matter though, I know she is seriously emotionally flawed. She is "just juice" and comes with a big set of problems and drama of her own.
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I suspect my H's OW Is in MLC as well.
It would be fun to start a thread of your H's OW traits and have everyone join in. I know RCR knows many of the traits, but if we get enough participation, we may be able to chart and see what is most common.
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OW is young (26), perfectionist like H, high achieving, but apart from that, egocentric, manipulative and extremely spoilt. This means she has difficulty in taking other people's point of view.
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My H other woman is not much younger than he (33) but she looks a lot younger. She is about 29 or 30. The little I know of her is that she is/was supposedly married to a violent, abusive husband (she filed) yet not sure the extent of it because I believe she is playing the damsel in distress with him. He has told me that he thinks she likes him because he's "this stable married man" (DELUSIONAL). Anyway she comes from a divorced family herself and has violence in her own family. SHe has laid low with me and I believe is playing more of an innocent role with him. He's CLUELESS to the manipulation but I see stuff going on that is passive manipulation. She is the mother to three children and the sick thing is (and my H has confirmed this with many comments) they bonded with each other about family. They also have a FANTASY that they'll be hanging out with all six kids my three and her three.
Her H has told me that it is out of character for her. That she has always been about family. That she has only had a few long term boyfriends. She got pregnant before marriage and that inititated marriage to husband. He talked about the laughing she does during conversations which really made me think that she's in MLC.
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OW is young, 22....childish, materialistic n egocentric. prob desperate for some attention. H says she is sweet n perfect n can do no wrong!! she also doesn't see that going on with someone else's H is wrong!!
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None of them do, Seaturtle. They all justify their sins.
My H's OW is 43 like him, a barfly, drinks a lot, not entirely ugly but definitely not as attractive as I am (not being stuck up, just honest) - and is definitely playing the innocent, I'm so sweet card. I know my H will wake up to her one day and be disgusted, I've seen him do it before. The last time with his EA he wondered what on earth he ever saw in her. She disgusted him.
Again, I don't worry about her at all, I mostly worry that my H can forgive himself. That is going to be the huge thing that keeps him upset. He will forgive, though, eventually. He's a very guilty person in general, never mind the MLC monster.
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Here is what I know about OW--Age 47, married, 3 boys (two are VERY close in age to my own--mid/late teens) H knew her as a friend of cousin in HS. They reconnected on FB (I know now cousin set this up as she tried to bring her "friends" out to our house last summer) and began to talk about their disillusionment with marriages. I know she is a bit materialistic from things I have seen about her. Appearance wise she is much the opposite of me. She is overweight and just seems to have a "loud" personality and appearance. Seems to like to be the center of attention and self-centered. For lack of a better word--a bit of a "diva." H claims she's "nice and sweet" and Not my enemy. Also she is apparently stupid as she has things about her family and photos posted online. Her stupidity to me is the biggest indicator that she is in MLC, as my H is also stupid or has at least forgotten he married a fairly intelligent woman.
Yes, I know this was a bit venomous. Better for me to get it out here.
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Again, I don't worry about her at all, I mostly worry that my H can forgive himself. That is going to be the huge thing that keeps him upset. He will forgive, though, eventually. He's a very guilty person in general, never mind the MLC monster.
I feel the same way M&H. I am not worried about the relationship. I know where it's going. I do worry about how my husband will deal with the guilt. He also can't handle guilt. He does his darndest to escape it which is why I think he hasn't hit rock bottom yet. Whenever I see the depression come up then I feel his escapism and anger.
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The woman who was the catalyst for H leaving was a complete nutter; a new age practitioner, much younger, bad breath (I knew her) and that didn't last long.
Since then what little I know has been that there has been quite a variety of "types" -- from someone with traits similar to me to long-hair flicking good-time party girls, none of whom has seemed to have been "the one".
I've actually thought that it's better if there is just one alienator, so that can just burn itself out. In my case he was/is? searching.... I'm just hoping that he finally realises that what he really wants has been right here all along.
At the beginning I know he wanted someone "lighthearted" -- he told me that I was too serious, that he wanted to live lightheartedly, not taking anything seriously. But since he's said that he doesn't want to be a father to anyone else's children, that others "have their own issues".... so slowly he is seeing that the grass isn't greener, but so far it hasn't made any difference to his stance. Even though he sees many positives about me, he says he "isn't one to go back".
Yikes -- writing that out was quite painful.... but I'll leave it, as it illustrates a very different situation from many here.
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ow is 40 has been married at least 3 times , one son in his early 20's, 1 grandchild that she has not been allowed to see very much .
She smokes and drinks ( not that i think that is terrible as I like to do that sometimes myself) her language is very foul, f this f that I have been told the she tells him to shut the f up and called him stupid f...er , this mostly occurs when she is drinking, the name calling that is.
H told me she is very outspoken, I asked him if that is what he liked about her , he said no it's overkill most of the time. When she is sober i am sure she treats him good. He has told me that she is tolerable, it's a free place to stay. He does think about getting his own place just trying to get his business established. I hate that it makes him sound like such a user and jerk totally not the kind of person he was.
All the things I mentioned are things he hates about people in general and worse whne a woman has a foul mouth he always hated that. Really dislikes a drunk because his father is a bad drunk and was violent when they where young and H can't stand to be around a drunk ....but now he lives with one ....wtf (excuse my lang.)
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OW is 29, last I heard unemployed, lives with her parents, heart condition, can't have kids, drug and alcohol addiction, gets wasted and craps all over her self. He can't have an intelligent conversation with her, he liked that I made him think. If it is true that they break up and go back he is with this again but he stays with her so she must have a place of her own or maybe he pays rent on his house and hers who knows. If he's at her house he doesn't have to deal with his world but this alienates him from his son. His son doesn't like her and won't see his dad if he's with her. When he came back for 2 months last December during their break up and we did some serious talking about her, very open very calm. I spent a lot of time just listening and I also made him treat her with decency because I know how it felt when he treated me like crap. He apologized up one side and down the other for hurting me with her. Then poof he left again, I haven't heard from him since Feb. Last summer was the worst, MONSTER was in town. This year is better because I am not going through the drama unless it is self created. Letting go of control is very hard when I have always been a control freak, but it's getting better, the control issue.
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Sorry for the delayed response but sometimes I don't see all questions--correction, often I don't! :P
And this weekend I am gone as I am at a conference the the rest of today and early tomorrow--it started yesterday, and then I am at a wedding through Sunday. I will be back and start answering my coaching requests upon returning.
what is the difference btw an emotion and feeling?
Here is an excerpt from the article about the Contrasexual Complexes in my Shadow series that should help to answer your question.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/shadow-anima-animus.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/shadow-anima-animus.html)
Feeling and mood are mutually exclusive; the former is the rational assignment of value to an object or experience and the latter is an emotional temper tantrum or emotion that is overwhelmed and controlled by the anima—the feminine aspect. A mood is unstable and swiftly changing emotion. Emotion, often confused with feeling, lacks the rationality of feeling; it is the amount of energy emitted by an object or experience or the energy within an active complex.
Do you have any information and insight about the dynamics of a crisis when both H and OW are in MLC? Does it make any sort of difference?
I don't have anything specific as this is a perfectly normal situation within MLC. Female MLCers frequently display Borderline Personality Disorder or Histrionic PErsonality Disorder traits, so I recommend you read the personalit disorders series.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/affairandmidlifecrisispersonalitydynamics_personalitydisorder.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/affairandmidlifecrisispersonalitydynamics_personalitydisorder.html)
Male MLCers tend toward Narcissism. But none of that means that those people are BDP, HDP or NPD...rather those traits are part of the MLC.
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[quoteBut none of that means that those people are BDP, HDP or NPD...rather those traits are part of the MLC.[/color][/font][/size]
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Could one of these PD be coming to the surface of an MLCer? In other words could a mental illness be buried within the Shadow after being hidden for most of their life or expressed to a lesser degree than what is seen in MLC? Could MLC be a time when such disorders are revealed? Will the MLC help to heal such things? It seems like most PDs are the results of emotional wounds. How would you know the difference btw a true PD and an MLC PD?
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[/quote]
Could one of these PD be coming to the surface of an MLCer? In other words could a mental illness be buried within the Shadow after being hidden for most of their life or expressed to a lesser degree than what is seen in MLC? Could MLC be a time when such disorders are revealed? Will the MLC help to heal such things? It seems like most PDs are the results of emotional wounds. How would you know the difference btw a true PD and an MLC PD?
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Buggy, I don't have an answer to your questions. I suspect a psychiatrist would differentiate based upon the number of characteristics an individual displays over a period of time.
I do know that my therapist, based upon my description of H's behavior, has indicated he is not a narcissit, but certainly is displaying some of those characteristics right now. (Dead on there RCR!0
I don't know enough about the OW in this case to fully determine her characteristics, but I suspect she is closer to a HDP. Pictures, tidbits I've picked up seem to indicate that is the case. I'll have to give some thought to how a NDP and an HDP might interact. I know it can't be good in the long term.
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I believe my H is displaying NPD and the OW is BPD. I'm starting to questions if some of those characterisitics were there before, of course to a lesser degree than what we are seeing now. Also if someone is an Accomadator and good at masks a PD might be hidden or excused for other things. Just some thoughts I am having. My husband is still seeing a psychotherapist who uses cog beh therapy so we'll see I guess.
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Oh! I question this because I see a lot of mental illness issues in the family that have gone undiagnosed due to DENIAL. It makes me think that his MLC could be a long one because there is a pathology on top of everything else.
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Somehow I missed this thread.
OW in my story is early 30's (H told me early 40's)...has been in abusive relationships according to H. I am not positive but believe that she has never been married. Belongs to a strict religion requiring her to wear skirts and not pants. Her father died almost 10yrs ago. Has had weight loss surgery. Is shorter than me according to my kids (I am 5'2") and shops at the health food store. No children and supposedly can't have children.
I too have worried about my H feeling so guilty that he'd never forgive himself...IF a time comes where he tries to reconnect, I hope that I am at a place of true forgiveness for him. I think that if his family can show him that he is worth forgiving then he may eventually be able to forgive himself.
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WAIT! She belongs to a strict religion where she can't wear pants - but she can GET INTO the pants of a MARRIED MAN?
I'm floored.
How could she reconcile those two in her mind?
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Belongs to a strict religion requiring her to wear skirts and not pants.
This is the kind of thing I can't understand sometimes. People that say they are religious yet get involved with a married man. My H's OW takes her kids to church. Apparently she has learned nothing there. I suppose it's the difference between true believers in a Higher Power and those that just talk the talk. It does infuriate me at times.
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I know...I have heard that she has not been going to church and that her family is very upset...that has been awhile ago..not sure what the status is now.
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It's the baby syndrome. You know when you hide your face from a baby, you disappear to them? Or so they theorize, anyway. IMHO OW will hide her face from God, and then He disappears and thus she is excused from her sin. Or else they say "it just FEELS right, so it can't be wrong" or worse, "He'll forgive me."
Yeah. That.
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ow in my sitch 37.2 kids,one special needs and the other a boy never out of trouble.Never worked day in her life survives in a mucky 2 bedroom flat and lives on social security benefits.My H said she had a hard life..yeah cos thats what she chose.Her H cheated on her, she divorced him and has been with several men since including many of my H work colleagues.She def has a personality dis order and is manipulative and focused on getting what she can get.Shes not ugly but not a patch on me in style,looks and personality.Her tongue is crude beyond belief for a woman I have been told.Was chasing several men at the time I found out abt their A.H did apologise but still with her after a year.H has had no ctc with his girls for almost a year.
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Could one of these PD be coming to the surface of an MLCer? In other words could a mental illness be buried within the Shadow after being hidden for most of their life or expressed to a lesser degree than what is seen in MLC? Could MLC be a time when such disorders are revealed? Will the MLC help to heal such things? It seems like most PDs are the results of emotional wounds. How would you know the difference btw a true PD and an MLC PD?
MLC brings out what RCR was detailing..it is the result of the "emotional crisis" the MLC'er is dealing with...hormonal changes can bring out other things, such as mood swings, and irritability within the MLC'er.
A true PD has been that way for most of or ALL of their lives..it is NOT something that comes on all of a sudden..there is a definite pattern to their behavior. A kind and gentle man for x amount of years suddenly turns selfish, self serving; acting crazy, etc,...there is an underlying EMOTIONAL problem that brought that on; such as sudden death of parents, or a major life change...so if you see the pattern, it leads directly back to the cause of the behavior.
My mother, for example, had emotional problems for most of her life; a pattern that persisted, and actually got much worse during her time in The Change..her symptoms NEVER went away; they were all part of the pattern of her life.
I keep forgetting that some of you have not dealt on an ongoing basis with emotionally disturbed people..and wondered at first about the question asked about telling the difference; I deeply apologize for forgetting that.
I wish my mother had not been the way she was, but she was, and I accepted it for what it was, right on up until her death in 1999 at the age of 53. I was told that she'd gotten hit in the head with a brick; when she was little, and that might have contributed to her problems...she had a scar on her forehead that was indented from that brick, as I remember.
Yet, maybe it WAS emotional, as my sister next to me is showing strong signs of some of the SAME problems my mother had, and I'm not affected that I know about...they DO say the crazy people don't know they are crazy..they think they are sane....could that be ME? :)
Anyway, the symptoms clear themselves as the MLC'er works his/her way through the tunnel, focusing in their issues, healing their childhood wounds; coming forward and "repackaging" themselves in a wholly different way than they were before the tunnel.
You may find that the exited MLC'er who is going into the settling down process will exhibit some behaviors that were NOT there before the tunnel; and you may find that they may "keep" some of the "old" mixed in with some of the "new".
Some people change completely..and they are totally unknown coming out. But, NO ONE is EVER the same coming out, as they were going in, as the MLC "burns" something out of them, extracting a CHANGE within..it is THIS change they are fighting throughout, until it is finally accepted within the final stage of Acceptance.
This process is also a crapshoot if/when they get that far..and divorce instigated by the LBS may STILL happen because they cannot accept what the MLC'er has become..remember the journey we talk about for the LBS? This same journey not only shows the LBS the reality of themselves, but it ALSO shows the reality of the MLC'er as they REALLY ARE/WERE within the years preceeding the crisis.
To continue to love someone after seeing them for what they really are/were is rough; and a very tall order to fill..and sometimes it is TOO much for the LBS to handle after all that's happened...that is why I have presented the possibility of the LBS not being able to accept the MLC'er for what they are..and they end up breaking down the marriage, also.
The journey was long and hard for me, and I had trouble, at first, accepting what my husband was becoming...it was a process of getting to know him all over again..but not only that, he had to get to know ME all over again, too. I wasn't the same person coming out, either.
I guess I must have done a HUGE hijack, sorry.
I didn't feel like describing my husband's OW; I think I've already done that before on another thread, and have no wish to write this down again....I knew what she was, her part in his issues, and the issues she had, but at this point in time, she no longer matters in the greater scheme of things to me...knowing what these OWs are and any details you've gotten from snooping or other means, only deepens the pain for the LBS, and is not worth obsessing about....although she is part of the issues within a MLC'er; she is but a SMALL part..and once she's gone; all that matters is helping your husbands come forward within the tunnel, IF you want to hopefully, bring your marriages back together at a later time..
It is enough to know your husbands are betraying you; and that is enough pain to deal with without buying more pain in the way of knowledge you don't need to be looking for, anyway. Your husbands may tell you things, and that is painful in itself.
I can see where, in his own twisted way at that time, my husband, at least was trying to protect me from knowing..and I have to give him SOME credit for that; as in his own twisted way at that time, he still loved me; and though he was sneaky, at least he DID end it..and didn't let it get any farther than it did.
And though, I got very angry and jumped him several times, it didn't deter him from coming back..and it takes MORE strength to come back, than it does to run anytime..and again, I have to give him credit...he HAD to know it was going to be hell with me and he was going to have to deal with it; but he came back anyway, and faced my anger...that's strength he'd gotten from somewhere that I hadn't known he had until then.
It was ALSO evidence that God was working within the situation..and after a time, I stopped looking for anything in regards to the affair, as he destroyed most of the evidence surrounding it at a later time, just before OW Withdrawal was finished.
It was what it was, and I can't change it, so I accepted it all..and though I remember it, it no longer hurts me.
I guess the point is that all things work to the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His Promise..parahrase from Romans 8:28, and I saw that play out in my life many times during his MLC, and during my transition. God knew what He was doing; and I trusted that He knew what He was doing..although sometimes, I interfered in it a little more than I should have, and paid consequences for my interference several times. :)
Have a good one. :)
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Could one of these PD be coming to the surface of an MLCer? In other words could a mental illness be buried within the Shadow after being hidden for most of their life or expressed to a lesser degree than what is seen in MLC? Could MLC be a time when such disorders are revealed?
Thank You HB, I was going to say what you did and thus will confirm it with a paste instead.A true PD has been that way for most of or ALL of their lives..it is NOT something that comes on all of a sudden..there is a definite pattern to their behavior.
Personality Disorders show themselves usually in adolescence and by the early twenties at the latest--and that is probably late.
But we all may have tendencies when uder emotional distress. Being an OW may bring out BPD behaviours--or maybe in-fautation hormones do it so they may arise even in a legitimate new relationship. MLCers display a lot of NPD attributes--during the crisis and especially during Replay.
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I see and am reading a lot of stories on the board where the LBS are struggling with a ? of whether or not to set an ultimatum about the affair. What is the differance between setting an ultimatum with your MLCer and setting a boundary?
Isn't OW exposure and consequences a neccessary push for some MLCers? I know its hard to do and accept but it ends the fantasy particularly in an EA. What might be some examples of when to do it and when to not?
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I gave H an ultimatum when I said to choose between OW (an EA) and me. He refuses to admit that it's an EA, although it meets all the criteria. He refused to make a choice. He felt controlled by the ultimatum. So I stopped.
A boundary is an LBS way of self protection. There is no ultimatum, but the idea (I think) is that we protect ourselves from knowing too much, from feeling too much and too much interaction with the person who causes us pain by going dark, dim, or no contact. I haven't got to that point yet. I don't know how else to establish my boundaries. Others wiser than me will comment!
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Mermaid has the idea. An ultimatum is when you force the MLCer to make a choice or else...choose the OW and leave or stop cheating and stay here with me.
Boundaries are often rules, but they are about self-protection. Rule boundaries are things such as not allowing your MLCer access to the house. But there are also emotional boundaries--think of how different cultures have different amounts of personal space that are acceptable in various situations. That is a type of boundary, if someone gets in your face, they are violating a pesonal boundary. Boundaries are about not allowing your MLCer to walk all over you--not allowing abuse. Your MLCer may still act abusively, but you will not take the abuse--let the alienator take it, many are willing. Contact levels like Dark and Dim are more like personal space boundaries, they are unofficial and emotional. No Contact is often a rule boundary where you tell your MLCer you do not want him to contact you...depending on the situation you may an include an until.
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anyone have any insight to how long a relationship (and I use the term very loosly) between a MLCer and OW who clearly has a borderline personlity disorder "blows up"?
I understand the dinamics that make this an ideal sitation in the beginning... MLC seems to be the center of this person's univers and they understand everything about them and they are playing knight in shining armor... but when it turns to the core of the disorder and the OW is now wanting all the focus on them and lieing to create reasons to be "rescued" and the control and jealousy are full swing... if the MLCer ran from his family because he couldn't deal with anything, how long will he put up with this from someone that there is no history or years of attachment to??
Just a question looking for anyone else's thoughts, views, or personal experiences
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Welcome to the board, SW.
Borderline personalities are inherently unstable with difficulties establishing relationships. Even if your MLCer is playing the knight in shining armour, this will appeal to only one side of him. He will probably get exhasuted of the emotional changes (he has his own), the lies, the manipulation, and ultimately, the lack of real support for himself.
But this, for the time being, is his problem. He needs to realise this.
You need to look after yourself. Tell us more, and what your strategies are to protect yourself (and your children?)
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I am no expert, but this is when the cycling begins in earnest. On one hand, the MLC likes to be the rescurer and the lack of commitment, and the ease of the relationship. After all, the point is for the MLCer to find "happiness" in the relationship. That is also where the terms soul mate and long-lost love come into play.
Also, just like an addictive substance, the initial high is very powerful. As the user attempts to getthe high back, they find themselves putting more and more effort without the same results. They then try to pull back. That is why the MLCer comes back. Then they are pulled back to the OW/OM thinking that they still can get what they desired results again. In your case, I believe the blow ups will increase the cycling but not necessarily speed up or slow down the length of the affair.
The problem is for us as LBSers to stand by while our spouse goes back and forth. Also the OM/OW is playing games as well. It is not easy because our emotions are so tied by the issues.
That is why it is important to detach. Then lots and lots of patience.
This is also my limited interpretation of what I have read on other posts and articles. Others will join in with more details and better explanations. (((Hugs)))
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My MLCer has been in EA for about 18 months with OW who is BD. Last year she put the pressure on him to leave us and he woke up to reality and ended things. As he was going througH OW withdrawl he revealed some things. One thing was that it was like a game and they would have to take things to the next level when they got stale. He said when something wasn't working anymore they'd step it up. Kind of like what RTFMF describles. He did get sucked back into affair after going through OW withdrawl a bit. I saw panic attacks, depression, withdrawl etc. Now she is displaying some very controling manipulative behavior that is very much centered on attention.
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RTFMSF sounds like he knows what he's talking about... The cycling is intense. They really don't even seem to LIKE OW/OM - my husband said to me "It's like you said... like maybe I'm addicted or something and I can't stop myself." This was after he called me to ask him to "let him go". It is sick.I'm glad it's not me, but I'm angry they can't just "snap out of it".
If you are old enough to remember that movie "Cabaret" with Liza Minelli and Joel Grey, you might recall a musical number mocking Jews where he sings a love song to a very unattractive figure about "If you could see her through my eyes" and the whole audience is laughing, that is how I feel about their blindness to OW/OM faults. Don't get me wrong, the reference was just about the song title and lyrics and nothing about ethnicity.
I actually think cycling is good because OW/OM starts to see that their love object is not so committed to them after all. That is when they will get jealous and controlling. My husband's OW didn't want him coming in our house because she knows he has slept with me (a LOT, but she probably only heard "1 time by accident in my sleep" or some stupid story). Hello!! It's ok if he sleeps with his WIFE, ya big dummy! It's YOU he shouldn't be sleeping with!! >:(
The tricky part of cycling is how to not feel like a doormat. Just know in the back of your rational mind that this is normal for MLC, nothing else.
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yeah.. this is not someone he would have ever dated or even found attractive... it's meer convenience ... it sickens me that he has allowed himself to sink so low as to shack up with a woman he doesn't even know and allow her to control who he sees and when even to the point of insisting on meeting his family (all of whom wish to have nothing to do with a person who would move a married man out of his home and into hers knowing that there are kids involved and the wife is batteling cancer.. did I mention this woman is a nurse)... it is slowly burning out though.. she keeps trying to exert more and more control (she's jealous, she lies, she manipulates and then tries to control him and he is starting to fight back...they are fighting constantly)
she has every reason to be jealous.. I'm younger, thinner, prettier, he loves me, his kids love me, and his family love me and we have 22 years of GOOD history together (before his dad was diagnoses with termal cancer and in hind sight this was the start of his crisis.. my second cancer diagnosis was what "pushed him over the edge" and brought on the bomb drop) and I refuse to give her any kind of satisfaction at all as far as displays of anger or attacks towards her... I'm not going to give him a reason to defend her... she is doing enough to say things against me and make htings up that didn't happen trying to get H to defend her or bad mouth me..but he is catching her in these lies and beliees me more and more and fights with her are escalating... give someone enough rope and they will always hang themselves I always say
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I agree with all you stated SW. My H other woman is also TOTALLY the opposite of what he would have been attracted to. If she was standing in a line up of woman she would be my last thought. AT least from a physical standpoint. I don't know much of her personality but I know the things she has done and there is CONTROL written all over it. SHe's got him wrapped tight. It's such a game, an ugly ugly game.
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I understand the dinamics that make this an ideal sitation in the beginning...
So am I safe to assume that you have read the articles on Affairs and MLC Personality Dynamics?
if the MLCer ran from his family because he couldn't deal with anything, how long will he put up with this from someone that there is no history or years of attachment to??
He will put up with the alienator as long as he is weaker than the strength of the emotional blackmail used against him.
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if the MLCer ran from his family because he couldn't deal with anything, how long will he put up with this from someone that there is no history or years of attachment to??
He will put up with the alienator as long as he is weaker than the strength of the emotional blackmail used against him.
Is this typically by the way of anger RCR? It's so hard to imagine them in the state there in being strong enough to rise above the emotional blackmail...or do they awaken to it somehow...see the reality as it gets crazier and crazier. What was your experience with Sweetheart.
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Yeah, RCR... inquiring minds want to know!
What could cause them to become strong enough to break from OW? And if they do, are they horrified by how they affaired down and embarrassed about how they thought they felt? Or do they still justify the affair and see it fondly but feel ready to move on because it became too much trouble? What happens to their feelings about being "soulmates"? I need answers because if this b**** is going to be a threat to my marriage years after it is over due to their connection in the past, then I'm bowing out for keeps. >:(
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I think when they clear out of the fog, they don't remember what drew them to ow/om in the first place. Guilt plays a large part as well. Remember, the initial draw is excitement. Afterwards, they seek the same high, but it is never the same.
I think they reach a point when they realize that the ow will never give them the initial excitement. That is when they exit replay and move further along the tunnel.
I know that is a simplification because there are many dynamics at play including the spouse, the ow, children, and friends that create interactions and conditions that will impact the affair in many different ways.
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What could cause them to become strong enough to break from OW? And if they do, are they horrified by how they affaired down and embarrassed about how they thought they felt? Or do they still justify the affair and see it fondly but feel ready to move on because it became too much trouble? What happens to their feelings about being "soulmates"? I need answers because if this b**** is going to be a threat to my marriage years after it is over due to their connection in the past, then I'm bowing out for keeps.
I'm not RCR, but I'll give you my take on it...something has to happen that overcomes their addiction to the "highs" of the affair..and causes them to be emotionally ready to end it. What has to happen has to do with their satisfaction turning to dissatisfaction..and the dissatisfaction has to become SO high, they are forced to face what they are doing, and have to gather what strength they have left to end the affair...the OW/OM can and usually do play their parts, too..in making this happen..as they start making demands on the MLC'er, and he/she starts feeling totally trapped within a trap of their own making.
Such as the Knight in Shining Armour becomes the Knight in Tarnished Armour, as he finds the OW has more or less tricked him into something he may not have meant to go so far, but it did.
Didn't we talk about this before, somewhere else? LOL!!
From what I was led to understand, in my case, I, more or less, ended up being the BETTER choice..and sometimes I find that hard to believe, considering that I was giving my husband all kinds of heck after finding out what he was doing. :)
The only way they would "go back" is IF the addiction is stronger than their resolve. And they may have good intentions but the road to Hades has always been paved with those; sometimes, the LBS has to make a stand, and draw the line in the hopes that the MLC'er will come to their senses and end the affair.
Some do, because they wake up and realize what they are doing, and see clearly that if they don't do something and quickly, they will lose the LBS, and most don't really want that.
It is better if the MLC'er ends it; they do a little better with the OW Withdrawal, mostly because THEY were the ones who dumped the OW, not the other way around....but then again, OW played on my husband's guilt, pestering him, bedding him, and it took something SHE did to end it all for good; part of it was her true colors showing, and he didn't like what he was seeing, as she was the opposite of me; on the other hand, he was replaying a time with his Mom..and the sex complicated matters when it went physical, and actually speeded up his breaking the addiction.
True colors, no matter how someone tries to hide them, ALWAYS come to light, and that can further increase the disenchantment between the MLC'er and the OW/OM.
Remember BOTH have problems, neurotics attract neurotics, and out of those types of problems comes a problematic affair that is fraught with problems, first and foremost, it was born out of deceit and wrongdoing, not to mention adultery.
I believe that somewhere within the OW/OM's hearts is the realization that IF the MLC'er does this with them, they could go on and do it TO them at a later time.
On top of that, the MLC'er knows somewhere in their heart, that if the OW/OM would cheat with them, they will cheat on the MLC'er given time and opportunity.
It is a relationship destined for failure. EVEN IF the MLC'er goes on and marries his/her affair, it will never be a stable relationship because of all that's mentioned above.
From my own experience, I watched my husband go through massive amounts of shame and guilt...and he was angry with himself because he'd allowed himself to get entangled that way.
But it happens when you open doors that you should NEVER open, and us normal people don't do things like that, as we KNOW what would happen if we did...the guilt would be very hard to bear, we would not sleep at night, and we would live in fear that our spouses would kick us out..and that is NEVER worth a roll or two or three in the hay for the sake of something different..or whatever is driving the affair.
I NEVER saw him "fondly" remember that time with OW..all I saw was a deep shame and guilt within him, even as he was going through OW Withdrawal, rejecting me again, working her out of his head and heart.
Those that break down the affair for whatever reason, always go through this season of shame and guilt...I really don't know of any who remember it "fondly"...
Now, they may feel responsible, and in some ways they ARE responsible for their part in it..and that is different, as they are different, and feel guilty for dragging the poor wittle OW into a big, bad affair....but remember them fondly as they are working it out? If he did have any fondness for her memory, I never saw that on him...only what I outlined above.
They DO grieve the loss, but that is not the same thing.
Anytime, you make a connection such as this, even illicit, the person you get involved with, and this is true even in marriage, they take residence in your head, and your heart...and when a final break is made, a grieving is gone though, where you see where you went wrong, and you work out the details of getting them out of your head and heart.
This is different, also, than a dead marriage that is going to be rebuilt at a later time, but yet, the process is pretty similar...the "OLD" is worked out in preparation for the new...same person, NEW relationship.
RCR may have a different take on this, or add to what I've already said. :)
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very insightful HeartsB... thank you... I am standing, and will continue to stand but somedays I just want to smack the crud out of H for brining someone else into this that will be an ever greater hurdle to overcome...but I know by the grace of GOd that we will overcome.... when he wakes up! :-\
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Getting back to the issue of borderline...I have had a friend and my mom (former therapist) tell me that they think OW is borderline. I didn't know much about it, but I do believe that something is pathologically wrong with her based on her long history of not only cheating but of getting pregnant.
From what little I have read, borderlines have a fear of abandonment. If that's the case, I don't know why OW would have left her steady H of 20 years, although I do find it interesting that he cheated on her 10 years ago and she is STILL punishing him for that. All of this is HIS fault, as was her affair/pregnancy 7 years ago. It's like she is hell-bent on sending him to the grave for what he did to her. And he took her BACK after the last affair/pregnancy (ended in adoption).
OW's H has said that she is very wishy-washy and moody; that she is ALWAYS late, may or may not do what she says (just like my H) and that whatever she says goes. He said she is very manipulative and controlling.
To the contrary of what you all have said, she is pretty, though! :( That was hard to stomach at first! She's cute, 2 years older than H; 42.
I know that the baby is a trophy; that she parades it around especially at work for all to see, like "Look, I've got him now! I've got his baby!" And there H is, just smiling like the village idiot, happy as a clam.
Anyway, I saw the name of this thread and given what I've been told, was curious to see what others' experience with borderlines have been. It sounds as though it doesn't necessarily speed up the ending of A, unfortunately. Like HB said, if H is still weak, it will go on and on. That's scary! What if he never gets a backbone? Ugh. I can't stand the thought of that.
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WritingMom,
Did you ever wonder if OW is reliving the first affair and pregnancy OVER with your husband? I know a young couple who were "strongly advised" to give up their baby (they were young teens and both mildly retarded) to a wonderful family in an open adoption. The parents tried to keep them apart for obvious reasons, but guess what? They got pregnant almost immediately to "make up" for the loss of the first child. If OW didn't get to live out the first "mistake" it looks like she is hell bent on doing it HER way this time. Too bad your husband got involved with her as it has NOTHING to do with him. That's my 2 cents worth.
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LG,
Strange that you say that. Her last affair/pregnancy, she carried to term and gave it up (also a girl) but told her kids she was carrying it for a friend!!! They only recently learned the truth.
Anyway, OW's H told me very early on that same thing; that she was just doing this because she had to give the last one up.
Still sounds so crazy and warped to me, but you are probably on to something. And yes, H is caught in the crossfire and has no clue what he's doing there.
Her divorce has dragged on also. Part of me wonders if hers will ever be final. She wanted her H back last time, will she just drag him to hell and back before changing her mind as some sick way to control? Who knows. It's all so bizarre.
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Yeah, and, who gets pregnant on purpose in an affair (twice)? Someone with SERIOUS problems...
One time I made the mistake of reading posts on an OW forum and it made me want to throw up! The crying and whining about their true love being a liar and constantly going back to his wife and how torturous it was but they couldn't let him go because they just loved him SO much and how no matter what, some day he would know what a martyr they were and how he was only going back to his wife out of guilt and he deserved SO much more. GET THE SMELLING SALTS!! There needs to be a deprogramming camp for these women and, dare I say it, a scarlet A on their foreheads for a period of time to warn the rest of us to lock up our husbands!! And for the husbands, a chastity belt and NO Viagra prescription for 5 years as penance!!
Don't get me started.
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I read somewhere that the best revenge for the OW is to let her KEEP him! Not what standing promotes, but I swear they build their fantasy up so huge that they refuse to see reality. Sometimes I just want to say, "Fine, you keep him and listen to his disgusting bodily noises and watch him lick his fingers while he eats and snore with his mouth open all night. Is that what you wanted? Huh? HUH???" ;D
And yes, this OW def needs a scarlet A!! All over her forehead! She's a whack job. I just hope she treats (my) H the same way she treats hers someday. I don't care what happens to her, but I want that to be his smelling salt--seeing her for what she really is!
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If our Hs ever wake up BOOOOOYOHBOOOOOOY r they gonna be soo grateful for us! Huh!?! ;)
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I have a question about the affair. Has anyone experienced their spouse avoiding bringing the OW into their old social circles, primarily keeping the relationship around all new friends? Even after divorce. It seems like they aren't as comfortable with their soulmate meeting family and old friends. My H was noted to take a long route around a football stadium to visit friends, and to avoid intro to OW. But she followed him and he had to introduce her. Just curious whether spouses flaunt or try to keep it quiet. And what motivates either behavior?
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Mine already is, but he'd better grow a set of REAL balls when he's done with all of this... he's gonna need 'em A: to deal with me and B: so I can respect him.
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Hi Sammi...My H has not brought OW around any of friends, or even to our side of town. When they go out, they stay "on the other side of the tracks". Mostly dive bars where there is no chance of running into me, the kids or our friends. If he does go to an event, he goes alone. She was not ever introduced to the kids. Even their common friends at work stopped seeing them!
I am not sure why. I would like to think it is out of respect. If that was the case, he would not have lived with her.
I believe it is because he wants to return to our marriage and knows that would burn a bridge. It may also be because he is embarrassed by her. She is obviously an affair down with minimal social skills.
It might be interesting to see if a strong degree of monster behavior correlates with OP flaunting.
Another correlation may be how extremely the MLCer has compartmentalized his life. My H is a pro at little boxes, and even becomes confused if I mention someone that exists in the other box.
Interested in hearing others ideas!
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Hi, all,
There is a lot of talk here about it definitely being replay if there is still OW, in many, many ways and cases that is clearly so.
But I wanted to bring up what RCR said to me in the coaching archives:
There is this myth that people have on the board that an OW=Replay. That is not true. Yes, it is common, but OWs can outlast Replay—or OW searches. If a couple divorces and then one or both seek other relationships do we look at them and assume they are in Replay because they are not trying to get together with their original spouse? Doesn’t that seem a bit absurd in that context. And yet we transfer it to our MLC context and it must be Replay. Some MLCer come through the crisis and choose not to return to their spouses and actively search for and find a new partner. That doesn’t mean they have gone back into the tunnel! Do we really think they are going to remain celibate for the rest of their years? Come on.
The other thing that was said that really leaves me wanting to ask for more explanation was this -- in response to my saying that I was wondering/fearing that he had come through, and had decided that life with me/us was not what he wanted:
It is common for MLCers who return to do so broken, but that is not always how it happens.
The idea of "what if it were mutual?" has been brought up in this same bit of the coaching archives; again, it's one of those answers that raises more questions.....
Thoughts?
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I just wanted to add to the replay question.
My friends H came home and OW was still there until the night before when my friend said enough and meant it. Bizarrely I had seen him go through withdrawal and true reconnection whilst he was still with OW.
He has since identified that although OW was 'with' him, he wasn't really wanting to be with her but her threats were so scary to him i.e suicide that he felt it better to stay with her than come home.
When the my friend gave him the last ultimatum that threat was greater than OW's threats and he walked away.
By the way they are rebuilding their 'new' relationship and are very happy.
So I think replay/not repay is very confusing as each scenario is different and subjective.
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T&L
I had a similiar question to HB on Still's thread....Just wondering about those MLCers who choose not to return....Maybe RCR can chime in but if they choose not to return...aren't they still running? or can they come through the entire crisis, acceptance and all and still not choose to come into the relationship....Wouldn't that mean they are still in replay or a matter of them not being able to face all the damage, even though they've healed? Very interested in this topic....HOpe my questions make sense...
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My Guess:
I think that the LBS would see the other stages and when they continued on in the opposite direction, we'd know what they decided. I was also told that they must make amends to us to really complete the full mlc cycle (read lost & unsure). It may be just an I'm sorry but they have to face us to face what they did, its at that time we get them back or we don't and that is only if we are still standing. We will know when it is over.
The real thing that you should focus on (and me too) isn't THEM its US. I know believe me how hard that is but what we need to really learn, they hurt us and continue to hurt us everyday, with NC or monster or OWs/OMs, we are the important ones they are not anymore, once they decided to ... they lost the specialness that made them important. We all what that back, but all things die in this world. They may not have what it takes to come back, they may get stuck, they may bounce back an forth between stages, and they may not decided to come home and we may decided we don't want them too. I do believe that when the time comes to either stop standing or take them back we will know.
As for broken, they are broken now, maybe they need us to fix them (our love/forgiveness/strength) or they will always be broken. I have much work to do on myself, so right now I hope they remain broken if they don't come home.
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There is this myth that people have on the board that an OW=Replay. That is not true. Yes, it is common, but OWs can outlast Replay—or OW searches. If a couple divorces and then one or both seek other relationships do we look at them and assume they are in Replay because they are not trying to get together with their original spouse? Doesn’t that seem a bit absurd in that context. And yet we transfer it to our MLC context and it must be Replay. Some MLCer come through the crisis and choose not to return to their spouses and actively search for and find a new partner. That doesn’t mean they have gone back into the tunnel! Do we really think they are going to remain celibate for the rest of their years? Come on.
I don't know how OWs can outlast Replay, when the initial OW or even multiple OWs can be part of the symptoms of their issues/crisis.
The marriage was put asunder when (A)they decide they don't want to be married anymore and (B)there is another person involved; most likely adultery, if the affair has gone physical.
What RCR is illustrating in the later part of her answer, however, is a distinct POSSIBILITY of the crisis...there are MANY things that can happen as a result of the crisis.
The MLC'er can continue to change and evolve, EVEN as they decide they truly do not want the marriage anymore; and that decision needs to be respected and accepted.
It is also possible at the breaking of Withdrawal, to decide NOT to continue with the marriage. That doesn't mean they have moved backward into Replay, either.
It's THEM, not the LBS.
Remember they are making some important decisions during this time, and they are examining their marriage closely during this time, even as they wander within the fog of MLC.
BUT---it is also possible to decide at ANY time to walk away and never come back, because the MLC'er feels the damage is too great to try again...and this is up to them, NOT the LBS.
By that time, though, the LBS is no longer a part of their life, in their own minds, and the MLC'er can or has moved on either to another marriage, OR even they could decide NOT to remarry for whatever reason.
These literally choose to break ALL ties, and it is hard for the LBS to accept, especially the ones who've stood for years, not wanting to accept that it very well could be over.
Making choices that seem to not be acceptable, affects the MLC'ER, not the LBS.
Remember, they are searching even as they are on their journey, and they could very well decide NOT to continue in their current marriage.
You have to accept ALL possibilities of this, not just some of them. On top of that, remember, you have NO control over what they decide to do; you will NEVER have control over the decisions they make. Good or bad, they WILL decide.
These are the hard questions to consider...all the LBS can do, is grow and change, and hope that it doesn't happen this way...but it COULD....and this is ALSO something that is difficult to get your head around.
All of the analyzing in the world will not change what has happened, nor will it fix the problem that is inherent within the MLC'er....all you can do is get on with your life, learn the lessons, change what you can, accept what you can't and get on with it.
Hopefully, this will help.
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You have to accept ALL possibilities of this, not just some of them. On top of that, remember, you have NO control over what they decide to do; you will NEVER have control over the decisions they make. Good or bad, they WILL decide.
These are the hard questions to consider...all the LBS can do, is grow and change, and hope that it doesn't happen this way...but it COULD....and this is ALSO something that is difficult to get your head around.
All of the analyzing in the world will not change what has happened, nor will it fix the problem that is inherent within the MLC'er....all you can do is get on with your life, learn the lessons, change what you can, accept what you can't and get on with it.
Hopefully, this will help.
HB,
I totally agree with this statement. ;)
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Maybe RCR can chime in but if they choose not to return...aren't they still running?
HB said pretty much everything, but I will just add a thought.
Is life that polar? Are there only two choices, good and bad, right and wrong? Are we the only means of salvation for our spouses, where all other choices mean damnation or that they are still nutters?
Just because we don't like an outcome does not mean it is bad or wrong. I hate divorce, really I do. But people get divorced all the time and still go on to live full and fulfilled lives.
If it were true that the only salvation were marital reconciliation, what would become of those MLCers whose spouses did not Stand--which is probably most? Or would that only apply to those with Standing spouses--and why, that would seem a bit random.
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Maybe RCR can chime in but if they choose not to return...aren't they still running?
HB said pretty much everything, but I will just add a thought.
Is life that polar? Are there only two choices, good and bad, right and wrong? Are we the only means of salvation for our spouses, where all other choices mean damnation or that they are still nutters?
Just because we don't like an outcome does not mean it is bad or wrong. I hate divorce, really I do. But people get divorced all the time and still go on to leave full and fulfilled lives.
If it were true that the only salvation were marital reconciliation, what would become of those MLCers whose spouses did not Stand--which is probably most? Or would that only apply to those with Standing spouses--and why, that would seem a bit random.
I guess this may have not been articulated well. What I am asking is more a case of taking responsibility rather than returning? I realize that they could take responsibility and still not return and in that sense everything you question above makes sense....However, I was interested in how their inability to recognize or take responsibility would effect the complettion of their crisis....This of course raises a whole new set of questions about what IS taking responsibility....I am interested in as a perspective of a person's internal growth in the crisis. For some men....just taking responsibility is a HUGE hurdle to overcome.
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I am new to the site.. but not new to the scenarios of OW, and MLC.
My thought is that we all have our own "reality". It is possible these beloved mates of ours can thrive, with a completely different world view? Perhaps right up to their last breath?
I could not do this. Perhaps you could not do this. And yet, there are beings who have themselves in such an altered reality, that 10, 20 or 30 years with someone other than the ex spouse, and the children, is fine for them.
I would judge these men and women as "lost souls". And yet, I come across these beings fairly often. Some are on marriage number 3... or 4. They seem incapable of knowing what it is I believe to be true. ... And , of course, what is true for them, I can not see.
Which brings us back to us.. the self. What is it that we thrive most in? Commiteed, loving, respectful relationships, fidelity, adventure... without a lot of storyline, or drama? (that would be my list.. not yours)? The challenge then is for each of us to live our own boundries.
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I have friends that seem to think that OW has a bold demeanor regarding me; as in, she enjoys flaunting her sitch in my face and is somewhat calculating in her actions with me in mind.
I resigned to their relationship early on. I have not engaged in any drama with her, called her, emailed, anything so I find it difficult to believe that I am enemy #1 in her life, although there have been instances that are beyond tacky and inappropriate.
Does anyone else have thoughts about OW/M's dislike of LBS? I guess I am a little fascinated by what makes OW's tick. This one seems a little left of center to be very nice. Does their anger toward LBS grow along with their insecurity in the relationship? I don't understand why she would direct it at me. H is the cheater. Why does she feel the need to maintain control where I am involve? Doesn't she feel like she's won?
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WM, she will never feel she's won. Won what? A whole S***load of S***, that's what!
It is because you won't engage in her drama that she is especially angry with you. She can't claim you "are after her" or any such thing. She likes the attention, and you're not giving it to her.
I SO want to blow up my husband's OW life, because I COULD, but unfortunately, it would only make me look bad to him because she is so "wonderful". She only acts jealous because "she loves him so much" GAG me!!
Incidentally, my husband claims his OW has NEVER said one bad thing about me... my best friend says that is not possible if they are talking about me at all. I know it is speculation, but any opinions?
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LG
my theory is, backed up by one of RCR's article, that some OW lay low...they cling...they hold back that part of their personality...until they can't anymore. It might be that she hasn't, although it's hard to believe. THey are in fantasy world so who knows what her acting capabilities are... the article also states that some OW love to hate the LBS and engage in drama. I guess this is like WM's OW...I can't remember what article it is...maybe emotional blackmail or something.....If she's stroking his ego and manipulative she's probably talking about you and he is so CLUELESS he doesn't get it....like ohmigod...you don't deserve that...you are such an awesome person...why can't she see that....she's probably hurting cuz she loves you so much BLAH BLAH BLAHDITTY DA! You know...who knows...they are such NUTTERs...the fact that Hs can't see it show how desperate they are...really.
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Hmmm. You are probably right, Buggy... My husband's OW DID pull the one about "I'm going to apologize to LettingGo by opening a Facebook account... LettingGo is right! I AM a pig for taking you back when you keep going back and forth between the two of us... I will step aside and stop trying to win your love and keeping you from your children! And DON'T TRY TO STOP ME BECAUSE I'M GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY and if LettingGo replies I will delete it before I read it!". That is the alleged email she was going to send me, VERBATIM, via HIM.
I told him it was a manipulation to get him to feel sorry for her and think she is such a good person and loves him so much she will do the right thing and that he FELL FOR IT HOOK, LINE and SINKER!! Of course, he incredulously denied that it wasn't true... after all, he read me the email from her! OMG, really questioning if I want this man back. What a dumbass! I totally see she feeds his "need" to be "loved" above EVERYTHING IN LIFE, no matter WHAT!!! You know, like he should have felt from his Mommy and Daddy, but NOOO, they were too f'd up to meet his needs...I hate to admit it, but I always told him (when I was desperate and we were fighting) that he was like "a black hole that can never be filled up!". So true.
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I hate, hate, hate the devastation that these relationships bring.
I don't know if OW is borderline or not. Sometimes I hope not. Sometimes I hope that they end up happily married forever (although not often!) just because of the kids. OW spent most of the weekend with my D while H was with my sons and OW's kids doing fun stuff. I hate it. It's sickening. When will their bubbles burst?
And yes, LG, they do get a lot of mileage by stroking H's ever waning egos. Please. We would vomit if we heard all of the lies that go back and forth between the two!! Her email to you is a prime example.
Can't stand it! I want their party to end.
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Hmmm. You are probably right, Buggy... My husband's OW DID pull the one about "I'm going to apologize to LettingGo by opening a Facebook account... LettingGo is right! I AM a pig for taking you back when you keep going back and forth between the two of us... I will step aside and stop trying to win your love and keeping you from your children! And DON'T TRY TO STOP ME BECAUSE I'M GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY and if LettingGo replies I will delete it before I read it!". That is the alleged email she was going to send me, VERBATIM, via HIM.
I told him it was a manipulation to get him to feel sorry for her and think she is such a good person and loves him so much she will do the right thing and that he FELL FOR IT HOOK, LINE and SINKER!! Of course, he incredulously denied that it wasn't true... after all, he read me the email from her! OMG, really questioning if I want this man back. What a dumbass! I totally see she feeds his "need" to be "loved" above EVERYTHING IN LIFE, no matter WHAT!!! You know, like he should have felt from his Mommy and Daddy, but NOOO, they were too f'd up to meet his needs...I hate to admit it, but I always told him (when I was desperate and we were fighting) that he was like "a black hole that can never be filled up!". So true.
LG
I think you're right on here about OW....I believe this has been the OW tactic in my situation too.....like playing the innocent blonde with the curly hair and big eyes......"it's so SAD how much we love each other....I hate that what we're doing is wrong.....we have to leave our spouses....it isn't FAIR to them".....it's such BS....and the fact that my H fell for it makes me see him in a very different light....really......what a MORON...it's so predictable....
I do believe a lot of it is there search for unconditional love that they were denied as children.....I understand what it's like to live with a black hole....lNOTHING EVER SATISFIES......EVER...that's why I have NO WORRIES about the OW.....cuz as soon as my H gets to HAVE her....Guess what?......he won't WANT her....I can guarantee it....and when he wakes up to everything he's done to get her.........WOW....is that going to suck.....so I'm here moving on and I can't promise that I'll stand 4EVAH! I'm here now but I want to be in a REAL relationship and I'm willing to hang in for awhile to see if it can be with H but if not I'll take what I've learned here and heal and experience the next ADVENTURE...
I know this sucks LG...but really...that ethnic "ho-tel" OW ain't got nothing on you.....really...she's an object.....and your H knows that for sure....but he's weak like mine....let's hope they can grow a set before it's too late.
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I have friends that seem to think that OW has a bold demeanor regarding me; as in, she enjoys flaunting her sitch in my face and is somewhat calculating in her actions with me in mind.
I resigned to their relationship early on. I have not engaged in any drama with her, called her, emailed, anything so I find it difficult to believe that I am enemy #1 in her life, although there have been instances that are beyond tacky and inappropriate.
Does anyone else have thoughts about OW/M's dislike of LBS? I guess I am a little fascinated by what makes OW's tick. This one seems a little left of center to be very nice. Does their anger toward LBS grow along with their insecurity in the relationship? I don't understand why she would direct it at me. H is the cheater. Why does she feel the need to maintain control where I am involve? Doesn't she feel like she's won?[/font][/size]
It is likely the article before Emotional Blackmail: Jealousy and Envy that Buggy is thinking about. Though the entire Personality Disoorder series is mixed throughout this thread. But it was the Jealousy & Envy article which I first thought of when you described her as bold.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/affairandmidlifecrisispersonalitydynamics_personalitydisorder_jealousy.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/affairandmidlifecrisispersonalitydynamics_personalitydisorder_jealousy.html)
But think about it. Why would an alienator like you? You are the rival. She may bad mouth you, she may keep her mouth shut, but you aren't going to be buddies and she knows it--even if she has a sick fantasy that all three of you will live together someday, with you in the mother in-law unit downstairs. That was one of Sweetheart's alienator's ideas. I guess it cold have been worse and she cold have fantasized a three-way.
Why should she direct her anger at your MLCer? She wants him. So just as you are for him, you are also the convenient projection scapegoat for her also. He is the cheater regarding you, not her. This is true even if he leaves her for you a few times. It is true because he belongs to you and she knows it, so he can only cheat on you, not with you.
She will never feel like she has completely won. She will likely never feel this in any relationship since she has a history of mate predation. She is accustomed to being mistreated and infidelity. Her men have always cheated on her or left her.
She is probably Histrionic rather than Borderline--you said that she's good looking didn't you. Histrionics are especially attractive. They also are the female counterpart to the Narcissist. She may not have known you personally, but she may be envious of women in general--and particulalry women who she perceives as having the life she wants. Her boldness indicates some narcissism which can be an attribute of a Histrionic.
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Will the OW feel like she's won once he's divorced you? Or will she still feel some insecurity? Considering how the relationship started. Seems like once she's lured him away and he has gone thru with divorce, she should feel that she "won".
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Will the OW feel like she's won once he's divorced you? Or will she still feel some insecurity? Considering how the relationship started. Seems like once she's lured him away and he has gone thru with divorce, she should feel that she "won".
Where is the victory is winning someone who is a proven cheater. She knows his history of infidelity because she assisted him in it. Divorcing you does not end his relationship with you if there are children involved. She will hate this. Divorcing you does not eliminate the possibility of a reconciliation in the futur. And divorcing you does not guarantee he will stay with her.
It may seem logical to feel as though she has won. But are probably not a Borderline or Histrionic personality. If the alienator is not, she is still likely in personality disorder mode. In the situation she has created for herself she has brought out personality disorder attributes--we've all got'em. The alienator has ever reason to be insecure in her relationship. It's not about winning, but about fidelity which her prize is known to lack.
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She has narcissistic qualities from the info I've gotten. And very controlling. Your comments do help put it in perspective. She is currently in process of her second divorce( in process before she even met my h) . So clearly she has issues.
Thanks for your thoughts. It helps.
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One time I made the mistake of reading posts on an OW forum and it made me want to throw up! The crying and whining about their true love being a liar and constantly going back to his wife and how torturous it was but they couldn't let him go because they just loved him SO much and how no matter what, some day he would know what a martyr they were and how he was only going back to his wife out of guilt and he deserved SO much more. GET THE SMELLING SALTS!! There needs to be a deprogramming camp for these women and, dare I say it, a scarlet A on their foreheads for a period of time to warn the rest of us to lock up our husbands!! And for the husbands, a chastity belt and NO Viagra prescription for 5 years as penance!!
LOL, LG....if you think about it, the OWs who lose their married men go through the SAME torment as the LBS when the MLC'er gives them the speech.
It's strange, but true.
I did a great deal of research long ago, and was shocked to see this similarity in the situations, of course it was DIFFERENT, but the reactions(as compared between the OW and LBS) were the SAME.
The only difference was the OW wasn't married to the man she was seeing, and the LBS was the WIFE of the MLC'er, who was going to the OW(IF they had one).
But each person was LEFT BEHIND when the relationship broke in pieces...triggering the crying, clinging, demanding, and pursuing behaviors for a time before either accepted what was happening.
I remember thinking this was really weird at the time.
The difference was, the OW has NO history with the married man, and the LBS has that history that may work to their advantage at a later time.
The advice given in each circumstance was the SAME, learn to detach, distance, and in time, the OW got over it, where the LBS had something different to contend with, the possible return of the WAS/MLC spouse.
The OW lost all the way around, and in time, they got back into the game with yet another married man...and the cycle started all over again, at least until it all broke down once again.
You've some that are "career OWs" who only see married men, don't make commitments, and take the married man for all the money they can get, only wanting to be "kept" by the married man.
No strings attached, only USING them for money and maintenance.
This is selfishness at its worst, as they could care less about the wives and families that are being hurt, and damaged through what they are doing.
I'd hate to be that pair of shoes, as I don't understand the thinking there..and am unable to even step down into those shoes. :)
On the other hand, it takes TWO to tango, and the husbands that do it are just as guilty as the OWs of carrying on with each other, and people do have and exercise choices....they make the WRONG ones, getting entangled in something they should have NEVER gotten into in the first place.
I had to begin to teach my husband about predators such as these long after he got disentangled from the OW he'd gotten involved with.
He, like me, was raised to believe pre-crisis, that nice women didn't dally with married men, nor did nice men dally with married women...both of us, through the experience he had, learned a HARD lesson from it......I know he's never gotten entangled like that again....and I became more discerning when it came to people like that.
In time, I was able to see more clearly, and in turn, I taught him to steer clear, and the signs to look for.
Predators look like any other person at first, but if you allow them to, they will drag you into the deepest pits of depravity, and if you allow yourself to cross certain lines, you'll get into a snare of deception and trickery that is hard to get out.
I've had friendships with males that I had to call a halt to, because they tried to cross certain lines with me, and I drew back when I saw where they were heading.
So OWs aren't the ONLY people to watch out for, some of the men are something else, too. :)
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I know that I have read and re-read that article but will do so again! I don't know why I lose perspective concerning OW relationship. They make it look so normal; like those that object are the crazy ones.
My thinking about OW having a personality disorder is based mainly on the fact that she has a history of not only cheating but of getting pregnant. I know I've mentioned it before, but 2 abortions and 2 pregnanices, the 3rd ending up in adoption, the 4th is H's. Seems WACKO to me that she would cheat AND get pregnant. Seems to me cheaters usually try to do the opposite.
Regardless, she is cuckoo and you all are right, will never feel secure since she is with a cheater. I just want their happiness to be O-V-E-R and I want her to go psycho on him like she does her H!!!
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So thats my question. There is a big withdrawal when our Hs or Ws leave OP....but they don't seem to have any withdrawal from us? Is their withdrawal depression hidden in their replay antics, I believe it is? Maybe I miss this in my readings.....
Any opinions?
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Thanks for asking this question as I have had it myself... My husband misses me, but doesn't seem to "suffer" withdrawal to the point of NOT BEING ABLE TO LEAVE ME!! As for OW, he CANNOT LEAVE HER!! Even when he doesn't LIKE her, he is unwilling and unable to leave her. RCR says there is emotional blackmail going on and I believe it is true. My husband's OW is like Kryptonite for him, and not in a sex way - just in a fantasy way I guess. The pain of leaving her after 8 whole months is GREATER than the pain of leaving me, his two children, dog and home, not to mention the family and friends he has cut ties with after 16 years or longer. Wow. She must really be something. NOT! He totally gives his power over to her... she doesn't want him to see his kids, so he doesn't. He b!tc#es about it, but won't put her in her place.
There are some famous relationships where the homewrecker affair partner marries the husband and becomes the evil stepmother, for real. They have a baby with the husband and get him to cut all ties with his first family. Happens all the time. Look at Michael Douglas and how he is confessing he was a bad father to his first family kids, but, yay for him! He gets to do it "right" this time with his NEW family with the younger wife. YAY!! We're so happy that YOU get a second chance to be a good Dad! Too bad your other kids have problems and are in jail because of their TRAUMA caused by YOU!! I might be a little bit angry tonight...LOL! >:(
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I think their withdrawal from their spouse, kids, home, etc. is deeply hidden and denied by the MLCer. I don't believe they are at a place emotionally where they can admit that to themselves. They are supposed to be happy now, right? That's what we all hear from them. If they admit they feel withdrawal, they have to start thinking about their own true happiness and start to admit to themselves that it really isn't about their spouse, but something inside of them. I do wonder sometimes if the purpose of touch and goes by the MLCer is just a tad bit of their withdrawal coming to the surface and causes them to act with a touch and go. I don't think they really will experience withdrawal symptoms until later in their crisis-perhaps during overt depression? Just my interpretation. Take it for what it's worth.
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I think it might have to do with the fact that they can still see us. If and when they let the ow go they supposedly don't see them anymore there is no more connection no children none of that.
My H made the comment to me "I don't understand what's so bad-we'll see each other all the time". I managed to make it into the house before I burst into tears.
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I also think there is another component here which is very significant...IF you look in my coaching archive you might find RCR's comment....but basically....when they think of coming back to US....the LBS...even if they miss us....there is NOW a whole host of complicated emotions surrounding our relationship...
Imagine the guilt
the pain
the sadness
and, let's be honest, most of our MLCers aren't the most EMOTIONALLY intelligent people.....So just imagine how hard it is for them to deal with all these incredibly complicated emotions when they could never really deal with just normal everyday emotions ....they are broken somehow...they missed some stage of emotional development.....and just like any sort of development....you must pass through all the stages to learn...
I have a background in literacy.....and if a child misses one of the key developmental stages they can be stuck....really....in order to move forward they would have to revisit that stage and work through the neccessary skills to move forward...Yes they may make it to adulthood and be able to FAKE being good readers but the bottom line is that they will be at a disadvantage until they learn those skills..I hope I'm not off on a tangent here but it just helps me think about emotional development...as I'm an educator and I'm very curious about human development....
Now the OW "feels good" like the way it "feels good" to know you are going on a nice vacation....or buying a new lipstick....or knowing your going to have chocolate cake after dinner....In fact I believe it's probably the anticipation of the fantasy with her that is more exciting than the reality....so if an MLCer is having all these complicated emotions about LBS and even missing them it MAY push they MLCer even further into the affair cuz .....listen closely here.....SHE GIVES HIM A SHORT TERM EMOTIONAL ADVANTAGE....She's an object....really....and that's a hard thing to look at as an LBS because it is the reality of a VERY WEAK man, as HB says. I see in my H something I've always seen in him...He'll get excited about an anticipatory event...Christmas...football season...going to dinner and he'll be all "juiced up" but then the event comes and goes and I see him hit a low...She is no different....She is a symptom.....A SUCKY STUPID SELFISH ANNOYING NUISANCE Of a symptom but a symptom nonetheless....like a headache...or a big fat TUMOR.....
This is his MAJOR issues and coping skills coming to roost and he will have to deal with them now....there is no where to run....with a standing spouse...the only other option is DENIAL....so he runs to OW because he's in a panic....really....a panic to feel good.....but life isn't about a consistent sense of feeling good....it's about feeling something the MLCer never quite learned to deal with.
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I think it might have to do with the fact that they can still see us. If and when they let the ow go they supposedly don't see them anymore there is no more connection no children none of that.
My H made the comment to me "I don't understand what's so bad-we'll see each other all the time". I managed to make it into the house before I burst into tears.
My H said something similiar and I read this a lot in people's stories here....Mine said once during a therapy session "she'll always be in my life, we have children together, we are always going to have a relationship"...I realize now this was his way of assuring himself of where I"d be, a cake-eating sort of comment...They like to know they have the LBS just where they left her....a sense of control....probably why Dark/NC are important parts of this journey.
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I'm not sure it's control in my case. I think it's security.
He's always had this sense about things..I don't mean intelligence. For example last thursday I was grieving so badly once again I imagined the thread I was hanging onto was frayed to the point of me simply letting go - it would be so easy for me to do right now. I went to bed and actually slept satisfied that I could just move on no problem.
We live in separate homes now. Friday morning he calls to say affaier with ow is over. But guess what? He hasn't been home in two nights.
And now after lying to me guess who will try to contact me before 5 days is up? And guess who's security will be satified? I'm considering NC I haven't done that before.
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Do most or all OW have a history of cheating?
My IC thinks H OW is NPD but from the articles I,ve read over and over seems to me like it,s BPD.
She has been marrid twice had alot of boyfriends. I,ve been told mine is not the first marriage she has broken up and probably want be the last.
OW was trying to brake up someone elses marriage while in a R with my H but didn,t succeed.
I think she is using emotional blackmail because H can,t even see our children unless she is with him. Ow bought H gifts as to lure him in so to speak.
When I first found out where OW lived I drove by her house (back in Jan) she seen me , H called D22 and was cussing her for what I did, D said she had NEVER heard her dad so mad. I figured he was putting on a show for OW.
H lives with OW and she is probably keeping him up. So that gives her ammo if H decides he wants out because now he owes her.
OW blocks then unblocks me on her face book. I know this because we have some mutual friends on fb.H has me our D and my sister blocked completely. It like she tries to play mind games.
The fact that she has been BOLD in going to H parents house and to our marrital home since the affair became public and it seems to me she was trying to just step into my life and take over where I once was. H was even talking about moving her and her kids into our home.
Any insight into the OW in my sitch from anyone that understands the PDs better than I do?
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"Something" keeps them coming back to the LBS; part of it is the longstanding history they have with the LBS; but yet, I believe it runs deeper within the spiritual level....the LBS is the stanchion, the strength, the lighthouse, the draw for the MLC'er.....and it keeps them coming back to "check" on where they are..to see if they are in the same place they left them.
Although their feelings are buried deeply within, the MLC'er really does STILL have feelings for the LBS; although guilt, shame and a sense of being "broken" within are at the forefront.
Many MLC'ers KNOW deep in their heart that OW/OM was never meant to last, but they are looking for a temporary band aid for the pain, as well as working out some of their issues or "replaying" times of their lives they hadn't finished right to begin with.
And when these types of issues are completed, they process into the awakening from this part of their lives; and they come to several realizations; one of which is they find they don't love the OW/OM at all, they still love the LBS...and that is even after all the fighting they do within to break that connection while within the affair; it remains unbroken, and unresolved within them.
That seems to be why after some years, SOME "wake up" and realize what they have done, trying to come back; but by that time too much water has gone underneath the bridge, and may be the LBS has moved on, having remarried, or moved on to a place where they don't love the MLC'er anymore.
It's weird; in their hearts, they don't see themselves as married to the LBS, but yet they keep coming back, because something deep within them keeps them doing this.
There IS a link between the MLC'er and LBS, as evidenced from the going back and forth between OW/OP and the LBS; OR if there's nothing like that going on, they still pop up at times; even after moving out.
It DOES also evidence wanting to control what happens with the LBS, much like an obsession..but is part of the tunnel and childlike behavior; thinking like a teenager.....always needing an "anchor" to go back to, yet wanting to be on their own.
Analyzing this behavior is fruitless at best; that's why it's so important to let go and let God work on them, all the while, focusing on yourselves. If you try and make sense out of everything they do, it will drive you crazy.
Some things just won't make ANY sense, no matter how hard you examine them....and, assuming they make it through, it will mostly be forgotten as time, acceptance, forgiveness, healing and rebuilding the marriage puts them in the place they need to be....in the past where they belong.
Only HE knows what's in store for the future; and some things you may never know the answers to, only that it is what it is, and most things are attributed to the tunnel, and the many aspects within the MLC'er is facing.
Anyway, that's MY take on it. :)
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wow that may sound like my story with a few variations. OW dragging H all over town to flaunt the new relationship. Insisting on h Only seeing kids when she can be ther. Insisting on H family accepting her... my mil is too polite to say anything to her face. OW was p!ssed off that H family still includes me in everything. OW pouting to H about our kids not accepting her... well, what the h@ll does she expect? (we have teen boys) THis woman moved a married man into her home after knowing him 2 weeks and prior to that he had lived 22 years with his wife... and according to anyone that knew/knows us we were a happy couple and still very much in love.
This woman, although married for many years was going thru a divorce when her husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She collected the ins money (which she has spent on my H) when he passed. OW's H's family say that they were divorcing because of her infidelity. Rumors about that this is not the first married man she has bedded. I could go on and on about some of the "tactics" she has used to manipulate H... including fabricated phone calls and threats against her and actual calls which she denies made to me. H is starting to see her lies ... as he knows I have NEVER in 22 years lied to him.
sick sick sick is what she is
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I think their withdrawal from their spouse, kids, home, etc. is deeply hidden and denied by the MLCer. I don't believe they are at a place emotionally where they can admit that to themselves.
Also keep in mind that in the case of an Alienator, your MLCer can get at least some of their emotional needs met by the OP; the OP is supposed to be the answer to why their life is so unhappy, remember?
Where the OP might have been happy and thought they were ready to have the MLCer's undivided attention, the OP becomes the focal point for all of the MLCer's emotional needs -- not just the ones we met but the ones that were met by friends and family members that the MLCer may have cut ties with.
(I've said it a couple of times but the really sucky part of this separation is that I choose not to seek comfort outside of my marriage so long as I am married to my wife, but she does not necessarily have the same reservations...)
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Standing Wife,
I thought H was flaunting OW around town ,but my IC thinks it,s OW doing the flaunting. My IC is the one that brought up MC to me and told me to do some research on it and I found this site.
My H parents has stopped having anything to do with me and now OW goes to their house.They told me they aren,t mad at me and this is not my fault but they think this is best. And they have been my family for 25yrs.
A few Family members that have been at inlaws when OW was there said she just sits there and doesn,t say much. They say she is total opposite of me at least what they see when she is around them.
But OW in my sitch was H first love in high school. And being human I can,t help but think that maybe he really has always loved her. I never stopped loving my first love , but he was not the kind of guy I wanted to spend my life with and raise a family with. And I never loved him the way I loved my H.
And OW has a young D . I don,t think she has her because she is never with them and a friend that lives really close to OWsays she NEVER sees her at OW house. What kind of mother would not have her child at that young age?
Both of our kids are grown. D22 begged her dad to come see her and our granddaughter without OW, H told her NOBODY was coming in between him and OW.
This is was a man that loved his kids more than anything. I remember H used to tell me he didn,t beleive in D none of his family had ever gotten D and he would never get D. Guess he changed his mind.
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Why is there OW/OM withdrawal drama but not spousal withdrawal
Withdrawal is a term used to refer to addiction--removal from an addictive source, often chemical. It is not so much withdrawal from the alienator, but in-fatuation withdrawal. In-fatuation floods the body with hormones that feel amazing. Removal of the adulterous relationship may send the MLCer plummeting because the alienator is the source of the in-fatuation hormones.
Jim Conway's stage of Withdrawal that follows (or may coincide with) his Stage 4 of Depression is a Withdrawal of the Self. This withdrawal is about the continuation of integrating the new Self born from Liminality (Stage 4 Depression). The MLCer withdraws to figure out the new person they are still becoming. This may also be a time of re-evaluation of the marriage and what they have done in their crisis. During Replay they did not get it; there were no negative consequences regarding the end of the marriage because they no longer wanted the marriage. I combine Conway's Stage 4 Depression and Stage 5 Withdrawal into Liminality and it is in the Liminal place where they begin to wake to the realization of what they have done. This realization scares and shames them and they may respond by withdrawing. If the LBS is not Standing--or they think there is no chance, they may then suffer their withdrawal from the marriage.
They may think there is no chance even if they know the LBS does want to reconcile. They fear a return to old patterns, that she won't be able to forgive, the they won't be able to get through their shame and guilt...they may simply see the difficulty ahead and believe it is impossible or at least improbable...and withdraw into their fears.
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They may think there is no chance even if they know the LBS does want to reconcile. They fear a return to old patterns, that she won't be able to forgive, the they won't be able to get through their shame and guilt...they may simply see the difficulty ahead and believe it is impossible or at least improbable...and withdraw into their fears.
So what do you do if this is the case? How do you get through that?
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Nothing, there is nothing that we can do, that their problem, it is not ours, we move on or we stand based on what we want at that time.
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They may think there is no chance even if they know the LBS does want to reconcile. They fear a return to old patterns, that she won't be able to forgive, the they won't be able to get through their shame and guilt...they may simply see the difficulty ahead and believe it is impossible or at least improbable...and withdraw into their fears.
So what do you do if this is the case? How do you get through that?
As mercury said, they have to work through that themselves; all you can do is be strong and consistent.
If your spouse knows that you are willing to work on things and don't want a divorce, and you don't say or do anything to contradict yourself or send mixed messages (assuming that you are not ending your Stand), then they will come to you when they feel they are ready.
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When the MLC er withdraws the standing spouse must wait patiently for the right moment when he/she reaches out. No pressure and no expectations.
When they reach out they need kindness and trust and forgiveness that allows them to move forward again and complete their journey. The reaching out by the LBS towards them allows the MLCer to stand on more solid ground.
If the spouse isn't standing then they face their future looking for love and companionship with the risk of withdrawing further into the tunnel for longer as they face the disintegration of the old life they had.
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When they reach out they need kindness and trust and forgiveness that allows them to move forward again and complete their journey. The reaching out by the LBS towards them allows the MLCer to stand on more solid ground.
Some don't believe that, preferring instead to believe the MLC'er must "prove" themselves, while the LBS stands around and does nothing in the way or reconnection.
Just so you know, I don't agree with the above statement I just wrote.
JA, you've hit it right on the money; I just wish more people understood this the way you've so clearly written it. :)
In my own experience, it takes TWO people to reconnect; one to initiate, the other to respond.
Although trust has to be rebuilt; reconnection must happen in order to move forward.
The past cannot be changed; only accepted, forgiven and healed from, and this takes TIME.
You run the risk of pushing the MLC'er away during a time when they are trying to reconnect, IF you don't fully realize that they are hurting and wounded...and those wounds have to heal.
It takes the LBS to help with those wounds, by being understanding, loving and patient; as the MLC'er comes through to finish the journey.
Thanks for saying that, JA; it confirms my own thoughts on the process. :)
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This is just a general observation about my situation and would appreciate anyone's thoughts.
My H is living with male friend from work , several years younger.
My h's OW is over there all the time, even overnight, (I think). She is divorcing or is divorced and has her own house. I don't understand why my h doesn't hang out there, where they would be alone. Odd to me they would stay where there is no privacy.
H's roommate is not dating. Kind of nerd but really sweet. So not like there are wild parties.
House is small so there would definitely be no privacy. It would be like carrying on an affair with your parents in the next room. To me, anyway.
Just curious about the psychotic nature of that set up.
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I'm curious if anyone else has a spouse with an OW or OM from their past? Does a history made the relationship harder for the spouse to give up?
My H's OW is a girlfriend from high school. Also, he was dating her when his mom died (which I believe her sudden death is the root of his MLC). He has told me that he has ALWAYS had feelings for her, and they even "talked" a few years ago, but they didn't allow it to continue.
It's like they think they have this magical relationship that defies all reason and they should be together no matter what (like the Notebook). It's so frustrating because I know he still sees her as his young, pretty prom date, and I'm the 40-something Mom taking the kids to the football game.
I really don't get it. I can't imagine any old high school boyfriend or crush I would want to be with now. I'm not the same person I was 20 years ago...
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S O,
My H,s OW is his old high school flame. Don,t know if it makes a diffrence or not. H hasn,t mentioned her since we dated. And that was only once.
In RCR article it is said that some do reconnect with old gf. I guess it is part of going back to their teen age years.
But if he loved her so much why not marry her? Our H chose us to spend their lives with and have their children. I to have questioned this. But I don,t remember putting a gun to H head and forcing him to marry me.
None of us are the same people we were 20yrs ago. They can not go back and it be the same in my PO. If these old flames were such a catch our H wouldn,t have thrown them back.
OW is an affair down! It has taken me along time to see this in my sitch and it truly sink in. But these women are controling and minipulative. ( They make our H wear matching shirts in public. LOL )
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The ow in my H's case is someone he knew casually many years ago. Anytime we would run into her she would simply pretend I wasn't there and continue her "cow eyes" at him. I never really let that bother me. I think we ran into her about 3 times in 20 or so years. He bumped into her in the grocery store this spring. That's how this whole mess got started. With her anyway. So I'd say no history here; but it's being made now.
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Hurt01 - Yes, I can really see how an Old Flame can make the MLC'er feel like they have gone back in time. My H has even commented how "old" other men his age look. In our sitch, the OW is also an affair down. She is about three years younger than me, but honestly, she looks ten years older than what she is. She looks like she has been a "tanorexic" and her hair is way blonder than it should be. I always get compliments that I look younger than what I am :). The matching shirts for your H and OW are hilarious! They needed to have "I'm with Stupid" written across the front!
in this for the long haul - It sounds like even if they didn't have a history, there was some attraction that went back. Still, we are humans, not animals, and we have control over our actions! I remember running into OW with H a few times, too. I knew they dated, but I didn't think too much about it... There was always something about her I didn't like though...
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I've got the same problem.
If she was a decent human being it might be differnt. But she's never worked a day in her life she's figured out how to live off the system. She's a virtual gypsy and junk collector living off the "poor poor me" adage. That's what's attactive to him. Someone he can "help" or rescue or save somehow. She has probaly taken advantage of just about everyone she meets and I DON"T want my daughters around her!!
He plead when he was moving her (in the RV he bought) to the back property behind the house that d14 and d17 needed to show 'compassion' I didn't even know he knew what the word was!
They didn't buy it.
He refered to me in an email to d17 as to what an indepedent strong woman I was. And a wonderful example of a mother. Guess that must have worn off in attraction to me for him.
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Yes, that's how my H's OW is, and he gets to be the "knight in shining armor!" I have more education and have always had a better job than H. He has told me that he feels dumb around me sometimes... So, now he's with someone he feels equal or better than. Also, her D's father is a drug addict and currently in jail. H says her D "took right up with him" so he also gets to rescue a poor little girl with a SOB as a dad. Would you believe he asked the therapist if it was possible for a man to go through postpartum depression after having a vasectomy, and maybe that's why he felt so drawn to her D???
My H also makes comments about how strong I am. Maybe strength intimidates the MLC'er, and they feel more comfortable around someone who is weak...
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I think that's a good part of it..this was a gradual thing with us.
I was always dependent on him financially which drove me nuts as he only wanted to work when he wanted to work. He liked constuction when he was younger 6 months on and 6 months off..those 6 months off also DROVE ME NUTS!!
I remeber when the kids were little I'd be raiding the couch cushions looking for loose change for milk money to send to school. Then he'd sell something he had collected and buy a snowmachine! Then he's want money for gas etc.
He's always been extremely self centered. But that's how his father was.
I have always worked but it wasn't until last year I got a decent job. He had lost his job 2 years before due too his anger issues.
So now all of a sudden it's OK to kick me out of his life because I can make it on my own?? WTF? :o
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My w's OM is someone she met online. They have never met, but w thinks he can read her mind and is her soul mate. She loves the fact that he is from the UK. She fantasizes about going to the UK to meet him and have their tender moment together. I would love to go to the UK and have my own tender moment with him. He is married too, but she says she respects his honesty. Of course, my w does not work and spends days on the computer without leaving the house. Talking about having it hard. As a therapist told her- she pointed to the sky and said, "Fantasy will always beat and she pointed at me and continued, "reality." However, you have to accept that this man is fantasy and you have built him into more than he is. My w would accept any of it. She said the thought of giving up OM would kill her. Talking about feeling like chopped liver during the session.
Well, my spouse may not have had a history with OM, but she is making the most of it now. By the way, has anyone ever taken the opportunity to slap the taste right out of om/ow's mouth. Not that I am violent, but I have my own fantasy world as well.
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Oh yeah
I go back and forth over who needs to be slapped harder H or the OW.
It really is ridiculous when you think about it . She respects his honesty? GOOD GREIF!! She doesn't even know him! He could be telling her anyrthing! So could she be.
I inadverndntly got an email from some chick that bought a gutar from H As I scrolled down I was floored at the way he was talking to her. How attractive she was and how hot it was to have a girl play bass in a band..and on and on. I just about split my sides laughing. Thank god she was on the west coast of the US or he's probably try her out also.
This was NO where near what the man I knew acted like.
He goes on and on in the email about the gigs HIS band was doing.
The band he formed has fallen apart at least 6 times and they NEVER EVEN PLAYED OUT
I thought to myself reading the email while he's fawning over this chick; Boy I wonder what OW would think about this email??
It's a chance for them to be something they aren't; BOTH of them.
You however ARE the real deal and if that W of yours doesn't wake up soon someone should take a swipe at someone. It's so frustrating!!
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Bumping this up. I am still very interested in what our H are dealing/living with as far as these OW/OM are concerned. Especially since I feel things might be unraveling with my H and OW, or at least I hope so.
H has withdrawn after his brief and I do mean brief show of wanting to see D and GD.
I know he misses them, would just like to know what goes on that keeps him from seeing our beautiful grandaughter. For a man that could not wait to have grandkids he has not seen her more than an hour total the first whole year of her life. We are expecting our second grandbaby in Dec.
I know OW is wacked, but I THINK it was RCR not sure said Ow might be HPD. My IC thinks NPD and I,m thinking BPD. Maybe we should take a poll.
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Hello,
I didn't know if I should post this in a new thread or not. I post questions sometimes in my original thread, but I think it is easy to miss them. (Please let me know if I should not start another thread for this and just re-submit my posts.)
This is a question for HB - and I welcome any advice from others as well.
Hb, had written:
One of the biggest problems with MLC'ers and their OWs is usually when they start exposing the relationship(such as it is) on their own; they encounter heavy resistance from their families; and hopefully, it is enough to help break down the affair.
HB,
My question:
So, even if H is trying to pass off OW as a relationship that has only begun recently, will family respond the same? He has been hiding her well, for at least a 1-1\2 years, and now that he has filed for divorce, I think he is going to try to pass her off as a "new relationship." Or doesn't it matter if they know this? I would hope family will see through. Many in his family do not know of affair.
Thankyou.
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For an example of an alienator that I think may be NPD, look at Writingmom's situation. The alienator does things that seem directly motivated to antagonize Writingmom--sending her daughter an email with photos of alienator and MLCer...well and getting pregnant is pretty big. The alienator had already given a child up for adoption when she got pregnant from a previous affair--she's married too.
And NPDers will be envious rather than jealous. Jealousy is about possessing something and protecting your possession, whereas envy is about wanting something that belongs to someone else not because the person wants it but because they do not want the other person (owner) to have it.
Here is the Jealousy versus Envy article link.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/affairandmidlifecrisispersonalitydynamics_personalitydisorder_jealousy.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/affairandmidlifecrisispersonalitydynamics_personalitydisorder_jealousy.html)
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I have reread Jealousy vs envious and I do beleive OW is envious. OW has flaunted H all over town and on her face book. She posted pics of them togather for all to see. While she parades H around he is in duck and hide mode from anyone that knows him. H facebook is blocked to where noone can even friend him and from what I understand OWs family and his boss is the only friends he has.
In the past couple of months I have noticed OW has Blocked her wall , pics and has removed in a relationship from her fb. Don,t know what that is about. H has also stopped takeing OW to his parents house. When I seen them at the fair they were not even walking close together. But H had seen me earlier and knew I was there.
I would have thought if they were so IN LOVE they would have been arm in arm or at least holding hands. Even after 25 yrs together H held my hand everywhere we went, even in the car. Maybe H is growing a set of B@#$S.
But earlier in this affair OW was trying to take over my life. She wanted my H , home , pool , kids , in laws. H and OW were talking about moving into OUR house but H grandfather put a stop to that. (He owns the land). OW wanted my kids to love her but that backfired on her to and they hate her. SO now H can not see his kids.
Sorry for rambling again.
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Very helpful link that I found! This addresses my sitch especially with baby making but very insightful info about Borderlines.
http://gettinbetter.com/blackmail.html
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WM
I read the article...thanks for posting
as far as the info..... :o :o :o :o....god help them......really
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Seeing the dynamic from the other side, it does take two to tango. At first, I raged against om. After all, I did not know him and it is easy to despise what you do not know. But, it was my w that asked him for his love. Now, a strong married man would have told her that while he was flattered, he would have to turn her down. He is not a strong man.
I am like HB in that I have never strayed, thought about straying, or pursued anyone other than my wife. If the roles were reversed and I was having an affair, my parents would have hit the roof. My oldest brother would fly out and work me over. It is not just in our blood.
The one thing that I see my w has done in the writings to the om is she has set herself up as the damsel that needs to be rescued. Om is her knight in shining armor. That is something that I have seen over and over throughout the threads that the om comes across as needing to be saved or protected. The om becomes something special.
Now neither of these two have ever met. They are separated by an ocean, but the emotional connection is so strong that my w told the MC that the thought of giving him up would kill her. About made me puke.
Talking about senseless. Not only has she pushed me out, she has pushed her oldest daughter out as well. So, having a ow living in my house, they are borderline. (((Hugs))) and more (((Hugs)))
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Ready, I don't know how you do it without strangling her, for real! She is out of her mind, and you know it. No one who was sane would think they could carry on a "love affair" openly while married!! It's insane! Remembering something Newman said on his blog, that he never stopped loving his wife, he just DISPLACED her and carried on with OW. I just think you've been displaced... like she's sticking her fingers in her ears so as not to hear you. Well, you need to do that too so you don't have to look the affair in the face every day...
Have you ever considered asking her if she'd like you to buy her a ticket to the UK? I wonder if she would really follow through with the fantasy... I mean, OM hasn't sent her a ticket.... she hasn't bought one herself, although, there have been issues about money for moving out if I remember correctly? OM isn't planning any trips to the US, either... What is stopping her?
Maybe you should buy her a new piece of luggage for Christmas for her trip... just sayin'
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I found the below posting from Mimi on the "Runaway Husbands" website and it struck me as being very profound. I think that many of us can appreciate this post regarding our MLC husbands
Here is what I have concluded...we are all very capable women. Most of us did it all, including covering for their defficiencies. Ultimately, they get to the second half of their lives and feel insecure and inferior by comparison to us. They feel we are so connected to our homes, our children, our lives, our friends, and they have been on major disconnect. They feel like AND ARE Losers. So, instead of connecting, they go out and find the other woman. And it doesn't matter what she looks like...she just HAS to be more screwed up than him! That is the only way he can feel superior. She has to believe that he invented the wheel!
It all comes down to this, men are competitive. Relationships are about power and control to them. They know that we are formidable competitors, they know they are not strong enough to beat us....so they move into a weaker arena. It's been going on since the battles in the Parthenon. Men are fighters, warriors, and they need to "win" at all costs.
To me, they have LOST so much. But their only goal is their sense of self...and the OW, needy, obsessive, baggaged, horrid as she is, thinks he hung the moon!!!
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Wow what a statement about men, someone must have really hurt this person. Hfb
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Of course not all men are like this! However, I see in her statement a concise summary of the affair down that RCR talks about. My husband could never handle the fact that I made more money than he did and he really started to put me down any opportunity he had in the year before BD. I always sensed that he felt inferior to me even though I never said anything to put him down and tried to show appreciation for all of the things he did for me (he was a wonderful handyman and did numerous projects outside and inside the house that save us quite a bit of money).
I know for a fact that the OW is definitely more broken then my husband when they met although, at this point, my H is pretty much right at her level now. I am not even angry at my husband most of the time. If anything, I feel sorry for him that his self esteem is so low that he ended up with such a mess of a girlfriend. I pray that, if anything, he goes through the whole process if MLC and does not get stuck so that someday, he can be a father to our D14 again. Since BD on 7-26 he has only seen our D twice and has been NC with her for about a month now.
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I wish it was that simple. If it was simply a conquest item or competitor issue, MLCer would opt for the one night stand and book on ow. RCR talks about depression and that the male MLCer is very vulnerable to actions to mask the pain.
OW creates an Eros love that many of them have not felt in a while. The butterflies in the stomach, the only thinking of that person. Feeling worthy of love again, all hit a confused an lost MLCer like a ton of bricks. If it was just about sex, the MLCer would go for a prostitute- same thrills and no commitment. They are lured by the "true love" and this must be it than just sexual attraction.
Now, I could be wrong. After all, I am a LBSer. I have been with my wife for seventeen years and I have never even thought about straying or being involved with another woman other than friendship. It is not in my blood.
Even in my situation, my w is not sexually attracted to the OM. It is an emotional connection made by someone she has never met. However, the mind is very powerful and it has allowed her to create a combination of fantasy and reality that is very hard for "totally" real me to fight against. If my w was just interested in sex, she could have her choice in the local area.
I think that both men and women in MLC are looking for an escape relationship. They want to feel young again and what is a better way to feel young again then to fall in love all over again. It is something new, it creates excitement, and it sure beats the day to day routines of their "normal" lives.
This is not most people, it is those that are affected by the crisis. I also know that the MLCer selects oddball mates. After all, what type of twenty-thirty year old is interested in a married forty-fifty year old male?
I am not defending the males on this site. I am just saying that the relationship between the MLCer and om/ow is much more than a quickie. It is a chemical connection/high than helps then MLCer avoid depression and mask the pain they are in. I don't have statistics, but I am quick to add that I bet that most r's between MLC and OW/OMs do not survive.
Well, that is my take on it. ((((Hugs))))
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Ready I agree.
My H told me he had considered a prostitute but wanted a new relationship.
I also think that the OW/OM they choose reflects something that has been missing in their lives. My H is living with a 'woman' who mirrors his mother at the same age. H always had abandonment issues as he was his mothers carer and she died and never thought he had done enough.
So it is very true that OW/OM is just a symptom of the MLCers crisis and no more. That's why when they wake up and look at this person they can't believe they affaired down so low.
But the low self esteem also has a part to play. My H certainly felt he was never good enough!
xx
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Who is mimi anyway? I do not believe there is a simple solution to MLC. I would love to have a wife that was able to have a better income, and yes I am competitive in most things that I do. I am curious how did you get a good paying job did it fall on your lap or was it something that you worked very hard for. Were you the best choice for the job or the 10nth best choice? Our world is a competitive place I am a firm believer that it takes two to tango and if the window of communications are not open it will go to hell in a hand basket.
My opinion in MLC is that we slowly drift apart and we do not feel the love from our spouse, my wife put our kids first so I was fourth fiddle. I tried to put my wife first. after years of wondering when we might be that person to our spouse when we first met, we fill our time with other things to do. These other things do not take our spouses involvement or our spouse is not interested in the other things and the drifting continues. We almost make separate lives without even realizing it. When we were young we tried to spend as much time together as possible. There is a lot more that could be said on this. Hfb
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In my case, I can relate to a lot what is documented in the "Runaway Husbands" post.
My h was very successful in his business, but I think felt very inadequate as a husband and father. He was good at providing for us but not relating to us or connecting with us on an emotional level.
He kept working more and more and became somewhat of a 'workacholic' and I think in a way he was running away from the home situation where he felt inadequate to deal with both myself and our kids.
My therapist explains it all as him being afraid of intimacy and a conflict avoider, and this relates back to the family of origin issues he was raised with. His family are all like that, and have always swept any issues under the carpet, and compensate by buying lots of material goods, and having everything appear 'normal' and 'successful' from the outside, when really on the inside they are lacking in real values and priorities in life.
I was growing more spiritually and emotionally as time went on, and demanding more of his time and wanting to connect on a deeper level. He was feeling more and more incapable of giving that to me and bolted. Afraid to look inside and feeling not able to give that way.
It kills me that he's feeling 'in love' with the OW, and I find that all hard to understand. He couldn't give to me, but ran and now is giving to another.
All I can think is that, that will eventually fade and he will be back to square one. However some people can live their whole lives like that. Not me, not anymore. If he can't reach that level of emotion and connection, what's the point? I will never be happy with that, so better to cut my losses now, and find someone who can. The matieral 'stuff' just never fills the void.
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Remember, I can see what you are talking about. I the past year I was trying to get closer and closer to my husband. I tried everything to make him happy and want to spend time with me and the family. All I wanted was for him to come home after work and spend time with me and the family. He kept staying out later and later and I asked what was wrong that he couldn't spend time with us and his reply at one point was that he just didn't want to come home. Nothing had happened at all. He likes to gamble and the only time I got to spend with him by myself was when we went gambling. I would move money around like crazy so he could gamble and I could be with him. From Oct of 2009 to April of 2010 we were gambling every weekend except maybe 4 or 6 weekends during that time. We gambled a lot of money and when we would run out he asked for more. I was just as guilty as I was enabling him but I couldn't see that he wasn't seeing it as spending time with me it was all about him and his happiness at the time.
I was devasated when he walked out. No warning, just came home from work early (Not like him at all) and said he was taking clothes and leaving.
Now he is with ow and goes straight to her after work and couldn't do that for his family. I am crushed over this because at one time his family meant a lot to him. I don't know what happen but I feel he feels good about himself because she hangs on his every word and it makes him feel young, like he still has it and he feels he is happy now. I have been told once it wears off or it gets old he will realize that no matter what he does or who he is with it will not changd the fact that he is unhappy within himself.
They tend to blame the ones that love the most and that is their spouses. i guess that see us as the evil ones and we are why they feel so unhappy. I just hope all of them will wake up and realize that what they had a along was what they were looking for.
I understand how you feel. Hugs to you
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I think ready opinion is more correct. The r between the two meets something they think is missing, it doesn't mean it was missing only they think it was. Mine is reliving us 10 years ago. The R is a symptom of the mlc of course this doesn't make it right and it sure doesn't stop the pain and having a mlc R doesn't excuse them from the betrayal. I don't feel that MOST mlc and the op will make it as partners, the few that do I believe will be miserable. The average for affair is 2 years, about as long as replay. I do feel any relationship build on someone else hurt is doomed. They choose easy messed up partners, we are all see this. No one who has morals and a solid head would move in with a married person, and go out of their way to destroy a family and a marriage.
HFB yes all relationship grow apart and then back together, that is the pattern of a long term relationship.
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Mercury,
I agree with the morals. What is it that makes a person get involved with a married person. How can they live with themselves? They have got to be very desparate to pursue a married person.
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Also,
The r between them is what hurts us the most, and what we fixate on. I know that mine doesn't love her like he loved me, I know he a pretty miserable guy right now, and I know that the r is doom or at least he is. I worry that I use my believe that he is having a mlc to justify his r and all the other hurtful things he has done. I fully believe that he is in crisis and not just a WAS. I am betrayed ever day he wakes up with her. In the end, there is no excuse for what they have done and there is no reason. In their minds they justify what they are doing in warped ideology and we do too. They F up.
hampcOcv,
YES, these women and men are mess up. I just can't believe there is so many of them.
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back to what rememberer was writing -- I get the bit about him not giving the emotional connection to his family but then supposedly giving it to the OW, but the operative word there is SUPPOSEDLY. It is almost always an illusion, no, make that it is always an illusion. It is the in-love-with bit, the infatuation, not the true emotional connection. Once more of that is required it goes south again.
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Before I realised H was having an MLC, he occasionally used to talk about OW as someone he knew from work. They would meet up occasionally for a coffee after their meeting. She would confide in him about her H. He would come home and talk about her situation and he told me that she had recently escaped an abusive marriage. I think her H was violent towards her.I guess My H was the knight in shining armour and she was the damsel in distress waiting to be rescued on the back of his white charger. My H ever the hero!!
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Since depression is such a hallmark of the midlife crisis, it seems to me that the infatuation phase of their fantasy relationship (with affair partner) lifts them out of their depression, the thrill and butterflies and all the relationship idealizing that goes with it. It is almost a transcendent experience for them. Those of us left behind with our significant knowledge of all the MLCer's history of poor judgement, botched career plans, unfinished projects, prior mistakes, personality flaws, we wouldn't be fooled very easily if the MLCer were to attempt to get by with minimum effort in our homelife with them. It just takes too much investment from the drained MLCer while in their depressive state to lift their own spirits around us and they are in no condition to make investments of any kind where the "payoff" (or admiration for their efforts) is uncertain; we, at home, would expect this person to function as they always have but that is not who they are now in MLC. They are also suffering from very poor self esteem at this same time. So they find someone who is easily fooled or superficially thrilled by their attentions and flimsy actions. The affair is like a drug, it is a form of high they have not experienced in a while. And for which they get to become someone else and leave all their mistakes and lack of achievement behind. This feels so good to the MLCer, part of the crisis was sadness over all the goals that they have not achieved. So dropping the baggage (of goals not reached and people who know the "real truth" of who the MLCer is) plus the addictive nature of the affair, I think this empowers them to blow past any guilt or sense of responsibility in order to leave it all behind. The illusion they have created doesn't last indefinitely however.
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MelanieB - I totally relate to what you are saying. I believe my H became very depressed when he was laid off after working at the same job for 13 years. He worked a lot of overtime right up until they shut the doors, then he abruptly had a lot of time on his hands to think...
I knew he suffered from low self esteem because he wasn't successful doing what he loved, playing music. I always told him how talented he was, but it just seemed like he always got hooked up with the wrong people and things would go nowhere. I have always been successful in the workplace, and I went back to college a few years back and got my bachelor's degree.
When he became depressed, I believe he tried to self-medicate. First with alcohol, then pills, then the old girlfriend from high school. She suddenly became his greatest fan, always going to see him play. I may be partly to blame here, because I rarely went to see him play because I really hated the bar scene and smelling like an ashtray... So, suddenly he couldn't live without this person. Being a single mom working in a warehouse, my H became her knight in shining armor.
He told me he knew I didn't "need" him. He and OW need each other to the point he is emotionally dependent on her and has had thoughts of suicide when they broke up.
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JF&D
Oh my gosh I had about the same thing happen!
He lost his job 2 years ago and it was a biggie. But HE lost it due to his anger issues. Then he had WAY too much time on his hands.
And he decided ON HIS OWN that the music scene was where he was going to "make" it.
He has a great voice but he is no front man. I had people from all over the state sleeping at the house for practices. I sent the girls to thier Grandmothers.
And I never went down to the music room to listen to them play..wives and girlfriends weren't allowed. But somehow he managed to ask why I never came down to listen.
I said no one elses wives or girlfriends were allowed to come to the house for practices why would I think I could do it; just because it was my house?
Regardless it fell apart due to the dynamics of all the peoples lives involved and he has given up on that dream.
Now just to get rid of this ow and maybe just maybe he will figure out how to pull himself together.
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Withgodshelp posted this on her thread; I liked it so much that I thought it deserved it's own -- it's something all of us need to continually consider:
Boundaries:
I want to post something I have learned about establishing boundaries. I really has been the best thing for me. It gave me some control over what I would allow and what I would not allow. I read a book called "The Secret Laws of Attraction." Here is what the author said about boundaries:
Boundaries are not about controlling others. People will do what they want. Boundaries are about protecting yourself from others. When you inform people, you are simply teaching them how to treat you.....If you dont have sufficient boundaries, you'll get burned and will eventually put up walls to protect yourself. These walls are what keep people out. Boundaries enable us to really open up and be intimate because we feel safe. The bigger your boundaries, the safer and more relaxed you'll feel and the easier it will be to connect with other people.
Setting boundaries is a stretch but well worth the effort becaue of the rich reward: people will respect you. We respect people who have boundaries and we dont respect those who dont. Indeed, we are often tempted to abuse those without boundaries. Perhaps it is part of the survival of the fittest concept - animals casting out the weak and sick so the stronger members can thrive. Like animals, we too can sense boundaries immediately. This is good news. Often, the moment you instill a new boundary, such as "People cant critisize me" you'll either be tested right away or no one will critisize you. People instinctively sense your new boundaries and dont go there. Its a powerful new aura you are projecting.
Strong boundaries enable us to become less needy. We are naturally attracted to the people we like and respect - the people who have a sence of dignity and self respect. When you have boundaries, it is easier to attract the right man or woman in your life. And, without them it is impossible to maintain a healthy realtionship.
Hope this helped others as well.
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Here is another wise post about boundaries that was sent to me:
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."
A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."
A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"
The answer is: You don't.
Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.
And none of it works.
The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:
You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.
This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."
You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
Get the idea now?
Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.
Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.
Boundaries are castle walls.
And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.
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I am going to print this out and read it every night. I didn't know I was looking for this till I saw it.
Thank you.
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Found this not sure if it relates to MLC affairs but alot of what happened here happened inn out sitch will post it anyway xxx
STAGE 1. DISCOVERY AND EMOTIONS (month 1-3)
All affairs start as a close friendship which leads to connection. There is a lot of romance and fantasy about each-other. It is the stage when the connection becomes emotional. The two AP exchange sweet words and flirt openly. They also spend the day
thinking about each-other and begin to build up a world out of reality (Why we haven't met before )
At this stage the OP doesn't mind to start a relationship with a married person and don't push for commitment. He is just enjoying this new and passionate relationship as something amazing and exiting.
At this stage the MAP begins to grow distant from the BS.
STAGE 2. CONSOLIDATION (month 3-6)
The A at this stage goes eventually physical which makes it even more powerful and addicting. The MAP eventually stops sex with the BS and spends every little free time to be or talk with the OP. They exchange gifts, talk a lot and get the connection stronger exchanging every single detail of their lives. The WS starts to feel a stranger in his own home, he forgets basic things, neglects his spouse eventually the children.
At this stage the WS starts to feel a slight guilt but he is so much in the fog that the addiction for OP excuses everything. In his mind OP is a "friend" that he loves. The intellectual exchange is great and the passion too. They think they are made for each-other or that they are soul-mates.
The OP starts to project a "future" with the WS, expresses his needs, but not necessarily pushing the WS or asking for divorce.
STAGE 3. REALITY FACTOR (month 6-12)
At this stage the WS begins to see the relationship for what it really is : an affair ! The romance and fantasy world starts to vanish and leave more place to the reality.
The WS's guilt grows bigger and settles in. WS starts to become inconsistent with AP going from clinging to distance, while feeling frustrated and torn. The romance leaves more and more place to frustration, pain and guilt.
The OP becomes more and more demanding but also considers the option that WS might never leave his spouse. The pain, frustration and the addiction become deeper. When MAP is distant AP puts aside her demands just to spend a moment with MAP. As soon as the MAP gives the "fix" the AP starts to be more demanding.
The relationship becomes conflicting like a roller coaster of fights, love and frustration.
At this stage the WS is less aware of his actions, telephone calls, messages, all what can make him go straight to a D-day. That's why the D-day arrives at this stage. They are so used to communicate with the OP that they forget "to hide" their actions and pay less attention.
STAGE 4. THE AFFAIR BURNS OUT (month 12-24*)
At this stage the guilt becomes stronger than the addiction to the OP whether if the relationship is burned out or because of a D-day. WS tempts to break up with AP but because of his state of withdrawal he goes back and forth in contact with AP. Even when he decides to stay in the M, he is still attracted from AP and does everything to get some attention from the AP (without any intention to leave the marriage).
Some of WS get comfortable with the BS forgiveness and once the dust settles, they temps to contact the AP for nostalgia or desire to see if the AP longs for them with "friendship" excuse or innocent "I wonder how are you going".
*Statistically affairs last at an average of 2 years.
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Nice article! :) It can happen in this way, With God's Help, even in a MLC affair. I do see some similarities with what happened with my husband back at the time he did his thing.
Thanks for posting, it will help others understand more about the affair in a greater context. :)
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Great Article!
I can also see alot of my H's affair.
Especially this bit: At this stage the WS is less aware of his actions, telephone calls, messages, all what can make him go straight to a D-day. That's why the D-day arrives at this stage. They are so used to communicate with the OP that they forget "to hide" their actions and pay less attention.
That is spot on :)
Thanks for posting it.
xx
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Wow! Great article! I too can see the stage almost exactly as it's rolling out so far. Thanks for posting. Gives food for thought.
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Bumping up! ;)
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Great article! I see a LOT of similarities in my H's affair. Even time frames.
I have a question for anyone. I have wondered this for a long time, but I never think to ask...what is considered the "beginning" of affair? What I mean is, if affairs statisically last about 2 years, what is the starting off point of that affair? Is it when they are friends, when it goes physical or bomb-drop??? If a person could go backwards from that 2 years point, at what stage would the WS and OW be at? Any thoughts?
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Is it when they are friends, when it goes physical or bomb-drop??? If a person could go backwards from that 2 years point, at what stage would the WS and OW be at? Any thoughts?
The affair is 'in the making' about the time the friendship starts. I don't think they are aware it will go that route at the time the friendship is struck, if that makes sense.
I've read again and again; "I don't know how it happened; it just happened"..that tells you they don't know at that time they become friends; that it will go that far.
It always pays to be careful; it's good to have friends of the opposite sex; nothing wrong with that, but you must always watch for the signs that that friendship it trying to go to another level.
The perception beginning to change is something else to watch for; the friendship starts trying to go places, and cross lines it should never cross; is a sign to back away.
I believe that sign appears, when one of the parties' perception changes, but each person that gets involved ignores it...thinking the friendship is 'harmless'..that other people get into affairs. That kind of attitude is dangerous.
I've had friendships in the past, that tried to go forward like that; and I backed away, recognizing that kind of sign as it tried to happen.
The guys I was friends with; would get very angry when I would back off, but that kind of connection cannot be allowed with me; I'm MARRIED; and I would make that clear as crystal..and they knew; but tried it, anyway...it was THEIR perception that changed, NOT mine.
Most men, but not all men, for some reason, can try to "sexualize" a friendship with the opposite sex; but something changes when that happens; it crosses all boundaries; and takes a person farther than they ever planned on going.
On the other hand; the OW crosses that line to try and control the affairee; to "keep" them for as long as they possibly can, before dumping them.
I hope this helps...the affair doesn't happen right off the bat; it goes through stages; friendship being the first.
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You know, I was remembering.....
My husband met his OW in December of 1999; it was a friendship to begin with....he "dated" her along, met her at times, took her to dinner and a movie...but never touched her until the final 3 months before the affair ended.
His perception of her changed in May of 2001, 6 months before the affair ended; he started being attracted to her, was using porn to keep himself "pure", and from falling into temptation.
Enter me, in September 2001, busting him; and keeping him from using; it opened him up to be "tested"...he failed the test.
The affair didn't become physical until late October; just after his 39th birthday; when she tempted him; and he fell, not once but three times.
Before then, it was just an EA..before then, it was a friendship; he was lonely, and she filled his need to be made to feel "special".
Remember his perception of me had changed; and I no longer counted; he was with me, but not with me; his emotional divorce from me was complete long before his perception of her had changed.
Now, this doesn't mean he didn't complain about her to me; she was connected to his work; and she was one of two female brokers that got him "backhauls" from various places he delivered to.
I knew she existed, but didn't know anything else was going on. :) He'd sometimes call me and complain that she'd gotten him something cheap; and I just listened; validating him, because I understood what he was going through....he needed to make money; and she didn't do him well at times.
I can see the steps he went through; it was wrong, but I can clearly see what happened that led him to the place he ended up in.
Later on, after the affair ended, and OW Withdrawal was complete, he completely rewrote all of the history of that time, just as he'd tried to rewrite our history before; and I nearly fell out laughing at him insisting that he'd taken me to see a movie that I had NEVER seen.
Heck, he even called her three months after the affair was finished; and he never knew that I grabbed the extension to listen in...I cannot tell you how I knew he was calling her, but I did; and was shocked to hear his MOTHER's voice on the other end....and she didn't even recognize his voice; talked to him like a stranger would...and it confused me.
He never called her again; and the little phone book got trashed for good; he destroyed more things from the affair, as he found them.
Much later, when I was ready to find out what had happened, was when I was shown that she had Multiple Personality disorder; had over 118 different personalities; up to 150 various different people she had "compartmentalized" within herself.
It was just like a "Vicky/Nicky" type scenario....I remember asking if it was like that Soap Opera, One Life to Live...and He confirmed that it was. Hey, I was asking a serious question, trying to understand this, as I could not get my head around it.
That explained the different colored hairs that came from wigs she wore; and apparently, she kept him on edge most of the time, because he never knew who he was going to see when he saw her.
She had problems, alright; and I was also shown he was NOT the only man she was seeing during that time; she was seeing others, as well, that had just as many problems as he did..but he never knew she was "cheating" on him all that time.
I don't know if he ever would have known; unless he'd have run to her...oh, she "luved" him; and wanted to keep him for awhile...that was why she called our house; in the hopes I would answer the phone..I'd have gotten my ears filled; but I never would answer; I would always be steered away; being told "It's her, don't answer."
Later, I matched the number to his little phone book that God helped me to find; plus his cell phone matched, too.
Lord, she was crazy, that one. They ALL are, in some form or fashion.
I don't know if this will help, but this is, in short form, what I remember from that time
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Thankyou HB.
You were very helpful. I had wondered about that for some time. And I see the affair is also a process that I never thought about before. Just like reconciling or standing , or coming through the tunnel is a process. So at the time then friendship begins is beginning. I can see it played out just as you wrote it in my H and OW's friendship. H allowed it to cross over those lines you spoke of and OW was more than obliging.
So in thinking in my sitch for example, my H has been involved with OW since summer 2008. That is when friendshgip was developed. But I think it became something more in Spring 2009. So that relationship is going into year 3. So is it a bad thing that H relationship with OW has gone on longer than statistics say an affair lasts? I mean, I know everyone is different and I have read on posts of H returning in 3,4,5 years. Just wonder if you also have thoughts on this. Are the majority of affairs longer?
Thanks so much for allowing your brain to be picked HB. And thank you to WGH for the good article and for letting me hi-jack your space for a bit.
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This is such a good thread,
I think there are a number of individual features which can affect time lines, or at least that's what i tell myself.
In my case, my h actually had 2 affairs in 09, one started as an EA in May/June and the other i think almost immediately became a PA in June/July 09
Both were discovered by me in Oct 09 (EA) and Nov 09(PA) though it's the one that started out as an EA which has lasted the course and now they are living together.
Because my h is OW's manager at work, which also happens to be my place of work too, he was desperate to keep it secret and they only went public in August 10.
I think that the secrecy added extra spice to the affair and probably built up an "us" against the world mentality, plus it's exciting etc.
I think if she had worked in another job, it might have burnt out quicker, my h is or was addicted to secrecy and fantasy (he had a secret life i discovered later) so it must have felt even more intense.
So I'm not sure when other factors come in if the time lines are important, but i think the process it describes is really helpful.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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So in thinking in my sitch for example, my H has been involved with OW since summer 2008. That is when friendshgip was developed. But I think it became something more in Spring 2009. So that relationship is going into year 3. So is it a bad thing that H relationship with OW has gone on longer than statistics say an affair lasts? I mean, I know everyone is different and I have read on posts of H returning in 3,4,5 years. Just wonder if you also have thoughts on this. Are the majority of affairs longer?
The affair will last until the MLC'er starts "awakening"..in other words; something has to happen to start opening his eyes to, (1) the fact he is doing wrong(2)the fact that if he doesn't do something, all will be lost.
Until either he begins to awaken OR the OW breaks it off; the affair will continue..the situation has to get so unsatisfying that one or the other will go through the process of breaking it off.
It also depends on how his affair reflects his issue(s)...sometimes an affair is developed and had to "relive" a time in their life that needs to be done right the second time around.
On the other hand; if the LBS throws them out; they can try and continue with the OW; and the affair is prolonged in that fashion.
There is no set time for the affair to end...it will end when it becomes so unsatisfying that it becomes a burden, rather than the escape, it was intended to be.
Statistically, affairs usually run no more than two years; but this is MLC; so, like I said, depending upon the issues they are working out within the affair...it can run a good while.
You're talking to someone who nearly caused her husband to walk away upon discovery of the affair.
By busting him in porn; that was my bomb drop; and it started his awakening process; he was figuring this stuff out on his own.
When I discovered the affair a little over a month later, I went totally ballistic on him; and he NEARLY decided to walk away from me..and he could have; because OW was still in the picture.
He would NOT have returned if he'd walked away.
The Lord instructed me to back down, and allow him the space and time to handle the breakdown of the affair; and I wouldn't obey Him..it wasn't until a few months ago that I realized that disobedience nearly cost me my marriage...never mind the fact he was trying to end the affair..and I wasn't helping my cause by jumping on him.
The Lord worked it all out; but there was a emotional cost that I paid in spades.
My advice to others in regards to handling affairs DOES NOT match what I did....I caused a lot of upheaval that would have avoided if I'd simply calmed down, and watched...but I didn't, and caused myself a great deal of avoidable heartache.
The OW/OM is the MLC'er's problem, NOT the LBS'....and the affair must be allowed to run its course..the only time to interfere and draw the line is when "cake eating" is involved; this is when the MLC'er is trying to have relationships with BOTH OW and LBS....and is stuck in the middle, wanting the best of both worlds; and not seeming to understand that they cannot have it both ways.
That does NOT mean you kick them out; they can sleep in the spare bedroom or on the couch..but you don't have anything to do with them until they choose one or the other.
Even if they choose the OW, it does NOT mean the LBS has failed; it means the MLC'er has a definite problem within themselves..but then, one who has an affair has a character fault within themselves.
This goes back to the understanding that you cannot make one choose what is best for them; some people must choose the worst to understand they left the best behind.
They don't realize that by choosing OW, they have multiplied their problems...and it can come to a point of changing their minds, especially when the OW thinks she has "won"; and starts showing her true colors; which aren't pretty, by the way.
On the other hand, if they choose to return to the LBS, the crisis is far from over...there are still issues to work out; and the LBS questions themselves many times over why they continue to stand for the marriage.
I've been there, too. :)
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That really helped me Hb...
i dont know if h was/is physical with friend...I dont care anymore...just wish it would all come to an end!
Its like I am seeing him do/say similar things to friend as he did to me even b4 he moved out...there was alot of lying of where he was going, drinking entirely too much, making constant excuses for not being home...
with his job now, it makes the not being home part easy, but the lying and drinking are prominent again... it seems to be ALL he wants to do when he is home, and it doesnt include me or friend...
hugs,
L
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I am not understanding what d-day is, AP, WS- Walkaway spouse?, BS- Left behind spouse?, MAP-?, Can you help me out?
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Remember his perception of me had changed; and I no longer counted; he was with me, but not with me; his emotional divorce from me was complete long before his perception of her had changed.
My question is regarding the fantasy affair.
I know there is a woman that has offered herself to my H. That has been one of his biggest turmoils throughout his MLC. He openly admitted this during BD. He told me how confused he was as he had never considered being in a relationship with anyone else. He said he felt things he couldn't understand.
This woman used to work with him. They had a close connection with several committees. They went to the same seminars together. She is an ultra-athlete and he has always had a strong admiration for female athletes that push themselves beyond limits. Last winter, he admittedly attended a party she was hosting as they are "just friends". (Sure, a friend offers herself to you knowing you have a wife and two young children at home....nice friend!) Still, he didn't seem to have the clarity to realize boundaries.
They no longer work together, but I believe they are still in contact. I honestly don't believe he would ever call this an EA. I don't know if it truly is either. I believe it is a fantasy he would like to pursue. Because I still believe this fantasy exists, I think he has bounced back (or possibly never truly left) replay.
So, my question is.....If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?
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So, my question is.....If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?
REALITY!
The world is not a perfect place.
So when the real world shows its ugly head, the MLC'er might look within and realize what they have given up and caused all this destruction.
Thats what I think!
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So, my question is.....If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?
This is a big question for me to and I think it's one a lot of LBS's must face that by enabling cake eating or the MLCer to play with OP and be a home base with LBS the MLCer can become stuck...there are many sitch where the FANTASY must be pushed into reality with exposure. THis is a scary thing for an LBS because we know what it means in MLC which is the pursuit of the affair partner. Yet as RCR says sometimes they have to hit rock bottom and the OP can actually be the accelerant for that. Some people say the OW extends the crisis but I think in some sitches a CRAZY OW might push the MLCer along more quickly. I think it REALLy depends on the MLCer a...this would all relate to a breakdown of an affair...and I think for some MLCers they must follow the process through to rule it out as a possiblity for happiness...These are just my thoughts..hope others weigh in too. In my sitch the affair started in Jan 09 was exposed in May 09 and ended for a BRIEF while but contact resumed and things spiraled again in Dec 09 with Obvious OW pressure around April 10/May 10. He left in June 10 after I set the boundary that if chose to stay in the home he would need to end contact with OW or he could choose to leave and then there was a plan for how we would deal with finances and kids. I told him that he was loved and this was his home but I would not tolerate a third person in our marriage and home. He chose to leave...it was no surprise.
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Heartsblessing
You certainly have a knack for putting things in an understandable format for me! Thank you.
I am understanding things a LOT better now. I could never put the pieces together before. 1) the issues of mlc'er, 2) satisfaction they are\are not receiving 3) reliving issue in life 4) burden vs escape 4)awakening process 5) good dose of REALITY. :) Even if possibly, and in my case already a reality, the mlc'er will have to leave and live with OW to find out what he already had.
Thank you HB! I also did many things in the beginning that made it a whole lot worse. I got on a lot of rants that really pushed him further away. But I think it wouldn't have made a difference as it is now. I think he would have left anyway. But it did give me much more pain as you said it had for you. I can relate. I sometimes go through the wondering if by my going NC when I had, had pushed him into OW's waiting tentacles. ( ;) )
I just realized something in this conversation that has helped me! Even though I have those times of doubt, I am glad I did go NC. It moved things forward as well as helping me keep my sanity and set boundary for H's cake-eating. H thought he could come here during day, when he wanted, and leave in evening to go to his private space. H also thought if he divorced me, he would still hang out and he would come here and putz around in the garage on projects and such.. Ummm...no... no I don't think so H.
So wow, I feel relief for something that has been bothering me underneath for a good year. I mean I actually "feel it" instead of saying it! Thanks everybody!
Voyager
It is interesting how similar our sitch's are. The time lines are a year apart from yours. My H EA summer 08...I find out Sept \Oct 08. H moves out May 09. I find out they are living together Aug 2010. And he is trying to keep it a secret still. Now stating he has been "seeing" her for about a month at that time. ??? ??? ??? When in fact he had been living with her for about 4 months. Secrets, secrets secrets. H loves his secrets.
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If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?
Like OP says REALITY strikes; perception changes in time, as fantasy cannot last forever, Still...something always happens to break that fantasy; and reality intrudes upon the fantasy.
It's hard to explain; but as they progress forward within the tunnel, they will experience several changes of perception..and eventually reality WILL strike, and break up the fantasy.
It is sort of like living in denial; it's great while in denial, but eventually reality will come in and show the person in denial what is really happening..and as a result, denial will break; and either cause a nervous breakdown or that person will take the reality and build on it, becoming stronger as a result.
Also, whomever they hold the fantasy about; can also break their fantasy; as they may see them do something or even hear something about that person that is NOT in line with the pedestal they have placed this person on, and that can ALSO break their fantasy-based thinking.
God has a tendency to get involved, as well, in response to prayers, NOT to intervene with their minds, but to work within their hearts to help them see the reality of things, too.
The whole time my husband was involved with his OW; quite a bit of his perception was fantasy; and as his perception changed for the worse, he became attracted to her; but when things started to fall apart; he saw her for what she was; and his perception altered/changed back to what it had been before; and he didn't like what he saw in her.
Your husband will have to work this out within himself..however it goes; but reality WILL, I hope, strike him given time; and the fantasy will break; as NO ONE is perfect; and hopefully, he will realize this; in TIME.
On the other hand, it may take him going to her to find out she is NOT what he thought she was...I'm hoping he will break this without going that far; but sometimes what it takes to bring a healthy dose of reality is to make a mistake that you have to live with for the rest of your life.
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Good Morning:
I just wanted to post a section of a blog that I follow to open a discussion on boundaries and expectations.
When I look at both myself and my H I feel this is one area we have definitely fallen down on, and is perhaps the crux of our issues, and his MLC (which I believe has launched me into my own MLT myself!). I am definitely going to spend my lunch hour and weekend free time sketching out better boundaries for myself and my children in many areas. I have learned that when one person in a family changes, the whole family relationship dynamic changes because there is no other way in a family ecosystem, so the only way is up (I HOPE!). An experiment in the making, but one that no matter which way my marriage goes, I will be better for it in the long run. The blog below is an email I receive from Project Happily Ever After. I hope you enjoy it. Please share your thoughts!
Thanks, Pup
Live Regret Free, Day 4
Posted: 06 Jan 2011 09:09 AM PST
Recently someone asked me about the difference between expectations and boundaries. I told him that expectations are what you hope will happen. Boundaries are what you allow to happen.
Let me tell you something. I was unhappiest in my marriage when my expectations were high, but my boundaries were low.
I expected a lot from my husband. I wanted him to be sensitive, kind, understanding, funny, exciting, hard working, smart and a million other things. I expected a lot from marriage, too. I wanted marriage to complete me. I’ll just stop with that one because it’s a high enough expectation all by itself.
My boundaries, however, were almost nonexistent. I gave up who I was in order to please others, especially my husband. If I was scheduled to go to a meditation class and he asked if he could go for a bike ride, I would agree to skip meditation and stay home with our daughter.
And I resented it. I bathed in a personally drawn hot bath of resentment during every moment of every day. This is not the kind of bath one wants to bathe in. Just so you know.
I was resentful because I wanted my husband to have a divine revelation. I wanted him to see that his choices were using me up and draining me dry. See? High expectations. I wanted him to have ESP. But he’s not the kind of person who can read minds like that.
And, in reality, I was the one who was creating the problem. I had no boundaries.
This high expectations (wanting a lot) and low boundaries (standing up for too little) was a pervasive problem in every area of my life. It caused unhappiness in my marriage, in my career, in my friendships… everywhere.
Once I learned how to lower my expectations and draw strong, confident boundaries in marriage, I was able to do it everywhere in life. I’m a better, stronger, happier person for it.If any of this sounds familiar to you, then you might want to do the same. Here are a few things to think about. If you are doing this series with your spouse, consider talking about each of these questions. If you are doing it on your own, consider them and see what revelations they generate:
What is sacred to you? What do you absolutely need to have in your life in order for you to be a happy, well-adjusted person? For me, I need to exercise regularly, get enough sleep, go to meditation once a week and practice it daily, and have a little me time (which might entail spending time with friends, reading novels, or just staring at a wall).
How often do you give up what is sacred to you in order to please someone else in your life—especially your spouse? Does it happen all the time? Or hardly at all?
What are some ways you can draw firm boundaries around what is sacred to you?
What are some ways you can better communicate the importance of what is scared to you to your spouse? (Note: Next week’s posts will all be about communication).
Are you centered, strong and complete enough to stand on your own two feet? In other words, if your marriage ended, do you know, without a doubt, that you would be able to survive on your own? If not, what can you do to create more completeness in your life and become more self sufficient and confident?
Think about your expectations of your spouse and of your marriage. Do you have expectations that you could satisfy outside of your marriage—and especially by drawing a firm boundary? For instance, if you have a need for excitement, could you satisfy that by taking more risks in your career or by traveling? If you have a need for stimulating conversation, could you satisfy it by going out with friends or by attending book club?
Think about your spouse’s boundaries. Are they strong and visible? Have you been trying to get past them? Do you respect those strong boundaries, or do you rally against them? Or are they weak and non-existent? Do you know where your spouse’s line is? Do you walk all over your spouse and not even realize it?
How do other people in your life assert their boundaries in a healthy way? Who are some people you would like to emulate?
RCR Edit to add Link for Blog's Main Page
http://www.projecthappilyeverafter.com (http://www.projecthappilyeverafter.com)
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Wow, that is an amazing article! I need to print that one out and keep it. Loved how the boundries was defined as protecting what is most vital to who you are. Also about the expectations vs boudries gap. This one really hit home for me. Something clicked when I read this.
Thanks!
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I told him that expectations are what you hope will happen. Boundaries are what you allow to happen.
This is a very good article in relation to the difference between expectations and boundaries..
But what it fails to mention in regards to the boundary half of it is this: Boundaries are for YOU, NOT the person you set them on.....the person you set the boundary on can easily decide they won't accept your limits; and they CAN either continually cross your boundaries, just because they can or walk away completely; refusing the have a relationship with you.
You have to be strong enough to accept the consequences for the boundaries you set...that doesn't mean you shouldn't set them; it simply means you must understand that if/when you set boundaries, you must ALSO be able to accept boundaries that are set on YOU.
Many people who are not mature, or lack proper boundaries view these as "punishment" or "control"....you set these to protect yourself; but they don't see it that way....they were trying to have the "other control" they are once had, and it is a battle of wills to enforce your boundaries, especially when they are early in the making; and you've never set them before.
Boundaries are NOT a "one sided" proposition, they never were.
Boundaries will change you, mature you; and in turn they can cause change of relation in the person you've set them on.
For example, when I started setting boundaries against my husband for bad behavior, he got very angry; and tried to back me down...back to the "easy" person I'd once been....I stood my ground; and he got angrier...now, this is where the choice came in...as I stood my ground; he could have easily decided he didn't want anything to do with me any longer, and walked away to find someone else who would put up with his controlling and manipulating ways...but because, he still wanted me; he chose to stay and begin to change in response to the boundaries I set.
It took time; but he did indeed change, as I changed...and came forward within the tunnel.
Another example involved his sister; she was also a controller and a manipulator, used to getting her own way 100 percent of the time. When I changed, she did NOT like it; telling me I was selfish and self centered, simply because I started saying NO alot more; and wouldn't take on the overload of projects I used to take on..and she EXPECTED me NOT to change...simply stay the same..and it wasn't happening.
What she was always asking of me wasn't life and death; but she would always try to "guilt" me into doing what she wanted, and in the past it had worked..I was a classic people pleaser at one time.
She would pitch fits at Thanksgiving and Christmastime, if we decided to do something on our own as a family...she wanted us to come out there to her house every year...and in the past we'd felt we couldn't plan trips out of town, because she would get mad if we did. We had allowed ourselves to be controlled by this.
After she figured out I was no longer bending to her will, she wouldn't speak to me for a long time; but, eventually, she began to change her way of relating to me; and she learned that her "hurt" feelings didn't mean much to me, as IF I could and wanted to, I would, and if I couldn't or didn't want to, I wouldn't.
You take chances when you set boundaries, although they are for your mental health AND growth.
In regards to the expectation half is this: NEVER, EVER EXPECT people to do what's right; if they do, that's great; but you can NEVER expect them to do anything for you or with you...as long as your expectations are low, you'll never be disappointed if someone doesn't do what you MIGHT reasonably expect them to.
It all goes back to the only person that can be controlled is SELF, and no other.
Everything we've ever attained, has been because we are and have been willing to fight for it...and that's only half the battle; the other half is convincing the other person that you are NO LONGER someone who can be walked on..and that comes at a certain within the crisis and within your growth...when YOU are ready to take that chance.
This is the "con" of that article..and I would be remiss if I didn't flesh out these "cons"...I've seen BOTH sides of the equation...my marriage made it, BUT I found out who my REAL friends were; once I started growing and changing; and I lost many "relationships" because people were only interested in what I could "do" for them, NOT the person I was.
Food for thought.
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Thanks, HB, for adding that.
I agree about us also having to accept boundaries. Not only from our spouses. My other example is my SIL. She and I have a good relationship, but she has basically set a boundary that she does not want to discuss H. At least not anything bad. I have probed to discover why (she, too, is the conflict avoidant type), and found that she was first of all embarrassed about it, about what he had done, but also she felt in the middle (justifiably) and just didn't want to be. Those are perfectly reasonable boundaries, btw.
So it is my choice to accept them and continue to have a relationship with her, or not, and not have that. I choose to have the relationship. I pretty much accept her boundaries, but have also explained my feelings about her -- about wanting my relationship with her and that this then becomes that elephant in the room. So we sometimes exchange a word or two about it, but basically I accept what to me is a more superficial relationship because I do understand that this is hard for her as well. I value the r and don't want to lose it. She also wants an r with me, so does try to see my POV as much as she can, even if she really doesn't do well with emotionally difficult things.
For me what was important was understanding her reasoning -- I needed to know if she condoned it and thought it was OK, or what. Turns out she feels embarrassed. So we go on. If I overstep I apologise, and make sure to have a long time before the next mishap.
Also goes to show that empathy -- understanding where the other is coming from -- goes a long way here.
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Let me add one thing to this discussion that is somewhat related.
Anger = Unfulfilled expectations.
When we say to keep our expectations low, the above is one reason.
To help us control our anger.
Our MLC'er's mostly have anger, same reason.
They have expectations that are too high.
So this is one of our lessons to learn.
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this is a god topic for me. All my life I have not been able to establish boundaries. I am the ultimate people pleaser! At work they know they can "count on me" because I have set no boundaries and allowed that expectation from them to continue. Sometimes it meant that I put things I HAD to do on the back burner to help someone out. I'm slowly trying to change that, but old habits there die hard.
With my kids I was the ultimate marshmallow. they knew I would always cave just to keep the peace. As I am now trying to establish boundaries with them, they are finding it hard to accept, because I am asserting myself. It confuses them sometimes. with kids, that not such a bad thing tho :P.
One area that I have realized through my therapy is my relationship with my mom and my lack of boundaries with her has cost me deeply. My mom I have come to understand is a control freak. And her actions have shaped me from a very young age. I did anything to get her attention, the straight A student, a cheerleader, heck I even became anorexic in my teens because I thought it made me look perfect. These actions that started so long ago have shaped me in to who I was today. I say was because I now understand that I lost myself many many years ago trying to please others, but mostly my mom.
In my marriage I was always the one that backed down, when there were bad times I always took it upon myself to "fix" it. I let myself be walked on because I did not establish any boundaries. I am learning what boundaries I need to establish if we do ever reconcile. It's scary for me because again, I am the ultimate people pleaser. My brother said the one thing he wanted to give me for Christmas was a back bone. LOL. But it s true. Having my H have an affair, cut me to the core... and because of it I have had to make serious changes within myself. Boundaries is the one area that I need the most help on. I feel confident,, but then lose that confidence. I'm a work in progress.....
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It's a great article--and a great Blog, but only the second part of the statement is true.
expectations are what you hope will happen. Boundaries are what you allow to happen.
She is making tha ll too common mistake of confusing expectation and Hope. Expectation is what you think will happen--you may or may not want it to happen. Hope is what you want to happen.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences and for pointing out some additional pros and cons as well. I posted in hopes of generating a discussion to expand the topic and learn from it more....so thank you!
I will always be a work in progress - another lesson of the journey - but now one I pay far more attention to. My journey, my H's journey, my childrens' journeys. In addition to my own developiong boundaries, I am VERY MUCH hoping to learn what my H's boundaries are, and what I am finding is that he is and always has been a conflict avoider, people pleaser as well. He doesn't have a lot of boundaries, and a very weak belief system. We actually stem from the same vine in that regard. We both need to establish and COMMUNICATE what our boundaries are, our hopes, dreams, etc... and decipher which are somewhat pliable, and which are more sacred, and respect that in each other.
Part of that, as I believe you alude to, Growing Every Day, is from growing up in our familys of origin - growing up trying to keep the peace, smooth the waters, deal with parents in depression and conflict as well. Little people pleasers grow up to be adult people pleasers at times.
We were married young, we depended on each other, grew up together, parented each other in some regards,"kids raising kids" I sometimes think, and in the process we never had the time - or rather never TOOK the time - to assess, adjust, readjust and grow. That is something I hope to have the opportunity to change in our marriage, and if too late, at least we can learn from it and grow independently.
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I'm curious to find out how many of us LBS have their MLC spouse living with OM/OW and what their personality type is. What strategies have you used in deflecting spewing caused by pressure from OM/OW? Just trying to get a jump start on any potential land mines. What's worked and what hasn't? Lessons learned? I think it would benefit everyone to learn to move forward while focusing on ourselves.
Thanks! Here's to learning how best to navigate the MLC titanic and get on the lifeboat before it crashes. :o :o
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Okay I just learned this lesson.
My H lives with OW...she is BPD I believe.
She's passive agressive in her tatics.
My strategy has been to ignore...and NOT give her any power.
In the beginning of H's leaving I was cordial, very matter of fact, still had convo about R, finances, kids...etc.
When he moved in I went Dark
I'm currently VERY DARK. I still have to see him for drop offs. We do not speak but I do not have angry energy during these drop offs..It's more a matter of bussiness. Sometimes I feel as if we are doing a dance together. Still interacting in some wierd way but no words. It's like interacting with a ghost or something. I do not speak to him because he is very frequently in MONSTER lately and I don't want to be engaged.
Removing myself from his texts has been HUGE. Making myself unavailable through texts has virtually sent him spinning with his crazy NUTZO-ness being directed at others now.
It has also allowed me to reclaim a SPACE of sanity and MOVE forward.
Don't know if this is what you are looking for but if an MLCer continues to use the LBS for spewing I think there is a point where a boundary is needed...I believe most will know when this is.
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My h just married his ow. They have been living together several months. I think she is BPD as she is very controlling. She does avoid me and any contact. She tries to prevent h's contact also with me.
Though she hadn't really.
Ive not seen h since Dec 9 th. Only a few texts. I've gone mostly dark.
So far h has consistently come to the house even after engaged and married.
I've hidden.
Not sure how things will be post marriage re: continued contact re: financial issues.
Butterfly
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Hmm well EVERYONE knows my sitch ;D
But ow never contacted, wanted to keep H as far away as possible from me which failed.
in fact the pressure she appliedwas what drove him back.
But really he was coming to tea regularly and she decided that they should go out together with the girls for tea one night and then he could come here the other. Didn't last long.
She is envious of my life, wanted it.
Controlling.
But she is sly and is hanging on for now.
She is waiting for me to slip into old habits but I have no intentions of it. I apply no pressure.
In fact today he was talking about us going on a trip to Darwin :o Yeah right not while he's with ow it won't happen as we will be gone at least 6 weeks. She would absolutely freak. And that is the type of thing you do when you have a RELATIONSHIP with someone. *sigh*
I thik she is borderline historonic as she is also predatory and this is more of a game to her and she wants to win.
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That's his biggest alienator, the illusion of freedom and independence.
The "illusion" of freedom and independence, eh? You have NO clue how trapped he really is..on the outside; he says he wants freedom and independence; but on the inside; he is literally torn apart...but his mask hasn't "slipped" just yet...it will, though.
This is his means of getting his space; so, hopefully, he can deal with his issues, with very little, if any, interference.
Space is literally DEMANDED during MLC; and the typical MLC'er will get his/her space one way or the other.
Besides that, he NEEDS to live on his own; learning to properly care for HIMSELF; you were NOT put here to take care of him. And he does NOT need to "take care of you"..he needs to learn to care for you; there IS a difference.
Most especially if he has NOT EVER lived on his own...there are some that married straight out of school; and some that didn't live on their own long enough to learn to be responsible for themselves in a proper way.
I'd have to re-read your thread to see how your particular situation fits in which way; but him living on his own is the best thing for him; until he deals with the majority of his issues; THEN returns to you to finish his journey.
If he comes back TOO soon, the pressures within himself will cause him to run away again; and you want him to return far enough forward and mature enough; that he can take the pressures of dealing with the reconciliation and rebuilding of the marriage.
Sorry for the hijack. :)
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OW for him is now out of the picture. But he denied the kind of person she was until just recently.
Being an exprostotute he was wrapped up in the rapture of sex being love and couldn't see past the extremely damaged person she really was.
He since found out all she was after was his money and that she depised his daughters and he recntly told d18 that ow knew she would always be second best to them
OW is or was extremely jealous of the girls but put on this mask that she would love them like her own.
She already has another man living with her after only one month of being ousted from ExH's house.
All of this just happened last week. We had two phone converstions that did not go well. He dumped everything to me the whole sordid story. He tells me to walk away. I have been trying to since I left 7 months ago but he keeps contacting me about every ten days. So now I've been nc for five and have decided to ignore any contact from him from now on.
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I'm sort of getting a re-introduction to OW. I originally had her pegged as sort of a victim, but now believe she is more of a predator.
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Bingo HFZ..same here... in less words than I used before!!
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Predator yes...the worst kind.
HB do you really think the mask always slips eventually?
Yes mines is def BDP. controlling manipulative dosesnt want H anywhere near us.he has only visited 3 times since BD. When he txts he spews. I have been NC for 16 of the 18months.
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The OW is my ex best friend who I recently started to see the light on.. even before they ran off together. She is very selfish and self centered.. She has the what are you going to do for me next? Attitude.. my BIL even said she was a predator.. She was raking in my H for quite some time.. H her was dying of cancer and did pass in May 2010.. In August I got the bomb. She has been heard to say, and has said it to me, about her kids, "That is a responsibility I wish I could get rid of"! nice gal eh... he left me for that!
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http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/beyond-betrayal-life-after-infidelity
Some may have read it wanted to post it for those that havent xxx
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Good article. Read about the romantic affairs when it comes to MLC. Just my opinion.
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WOW!
Very very intersting! Thanks for sharing!
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Thanks WGH - I read that when I first discovered H's affair and was trying to make sense of it. At the time it seemed that the likelihood was that H was experiencing the romantic, "drug-like", escape from his own depression affair, but I was too close to the situation at the time to be sure.
Re-reading it now, I absolutely know that this is the kind of affair H is in. I also suspect that his OW is a "spider woman" of sorts, she has alluded to a serious break down in her R with her F as a child and she claimed that she couldn't leave her previous boyfriend because she couldn't afford to live somewhere on her own despite them "hating each other", but very surprisingly engineered a situation where she was able to leave him when H offered her an apartment to live in with him!
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Such validation. WGH you find very good resources...keep them coming. So many of these things were right on target for my H and had been what I've been shown about his R with OW...It's an ugly desperate thing...my goodness
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Hi
Very good reading. I agree about the romantic affairs relating to MLC.
Love the 'dumsels in distress' reference.
XX
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lol Glimmer i was goner start calling o/w dumsel, or rapunzal dont think ive spelt that right, she was rescued by the prince in the tower, thought about that name when i saw dumzel in distress, only thing is would yank her out that blinking tower by her hair ;D ;Dxxxxxxx
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Something I have been thinking about is an EA.
I have been trying to reconcile in my mind what the difference is between our spouses having an Emotional Affair and
all of us here on the internet supporting each other being addicted to the computer.
So I looked this up and got this from wikipedia, it helped me reconcile that I am not having an EA with all of YOU!!!
Hope this helps anybody else that is thinking about this.
This type of affair is often characterized by:
* Inappropriate emotional intimacy. The partner being unfaithful may spend inappropriate or excessive time with someone of the opposite or same gender (time not shared with the faithful partner). He or she may confide more in their new “friend” than in their partner and may share more intimate emotional feelings and secrets with their new partner than with their existing spouse. Any time that an individual invests more emotionally into a relationship with someone besides their partner the existing partnership may suffer.
* Deception and secrecy. Those involved may not tell their partners about the amount of time they spend with each other. An individual involved in this type of affair may, for example, tell his or her spouse that they are doing other activities when they are really meeting with someone else. Or the unfaithful spouse may exclude any mention of the other person while discussing the day’s activities to conceal the rendezvous. Even if no physical intimacy occurs, the deception clearly shows that those involved believe they are doing something wrong that undermines the existing relationship. In other words, if there was really no harm in meeting with a friend, both parties would feel comfortable telling their partners the truth about where they are meeting and what they are discussing.
* Increased fighting. When a person becomes emotionally involved with a third party, they may view the new person as all good and their committed partner as all bad. This person may blame their interest in the third party on their committed partner, which will lead to increased fighting and strain on the relationship.[9]
* An emotional triangle. One that may only be known to the unfaithful, who then struggles to keep the other two from knowing of the impact of one upon the other. Denial will likely characterize the unfaithful person's response to an invitation by their spouse to reflect on the competing demands of the relationship with the other person.
* Sexual and emotional chemistry. Sexual and emotional chemistry can present itself based on a physical attraction one might feel for another person. In addition, it can also be related to an increase in dopamine, a hormone that produces feelings of pleasure, and norepinephrine, which is similar to adrenaline and causes an increase in excitement. This may or may not lead to physical intimacy, however, if nurtured it may present itself. The time between the first meeting and a first kiss can often be very lengthy, but the time between the first kiss and sexual intercourse may be very short. In most of these affairs, however, an unspoken attraction exists. A partner may spend extra time getting ready before seeing this "friend" or may buy new clothing or change their appearance in order to seem attractive to them. They may obsess anticipating phone calls, emails or text messages.
* Denial. Denial of the presence of sexual behavior, sexuality or even of an atom of limerence. "Limerence is an involuntary cognitive and emotional state in which a person feels an intense romantic desire for another person. It is characterized by intrusive thinking and pronounced sensitivity to external events that reflect the disposition of the limerent object towards the individual." This denial can be exhibited by the cheating partner and/or the partner being cheated on, especially if the partner cheated on is male. If the cheating partner accepts that the element of sexual attraction exists, however, and physical contact starts, it can cause the current relationship to start collapsing.
* Betrayal. There is an implicit betrayal of values, believed to have been shared, about the sanctity of a relationship based on love, of the idea of a soulmate and of being faithful to fundamental agreements underlying intimacy, that are perceived by the spouse not involved in the affair to be a core of their committed relationship and world view.
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Oh OP
So I looked this up and got this from wikipedia, it helped me reconcile that I am not having an EA with all of YOU!!!
You bounder!!!!! Does this mean we're through???? You mean you've been having an affair with everyone. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
I thought we were getting married after our Divorces......... >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Right I'm on my way over there........... >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Oh OP
So I looked this up and got this from wikipedia, it helped me reconcile that I am not having an EA with all of YOU!!!
You bounder!!!!! Does this mean we're through???? You mean you've been having an affair with everyone. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
I thought we were getting married after our Divorces......... >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Right I'm on my way over there........... >:( >:( >:( >:(
LMAO
Oh no V, that was just in general speaking terms. I am completely loyal to you and so looking forward to our upcoming marriage.
:) :) :)
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Oh no V, that was just in general speaking terms. I am completely loyal to you and so looking forward to our upcoming marriage.
Hmmmmm why am I not entirely convinced.......have you got that Tuxedo yet and sorted out the pre nup???? Oh and bought us somewhere nice to live, somewhere really classy with lots of space, oh and I'll need a car to get around, hey maybe even our own plane!!!! and you've got plenty of money haven't you. My Schmoopie. :) :) :) :) :)
We are soul mates.......
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have you got that Tuxedo yet and sorted out the pre nup???? Oh and bought us somewhere nice to live, somewhere really classy with lots of space, oh and I'll need a car to get around, hey maybe even our own plane!!!! and you've got plenty of money haven't you. My Schmoopie. :) :) :) :) :)
We are soul mates.......
Yes I am working on all that, right now!
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I hope this relationship is ongoing I have bought a beautiful hat for the nuptials.
Mind you I don't mean to burst V bubble but I have a feeling OP that you were trying to marry a woman on every continent not so long ago :o :o :o :o
xx
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Good OP, just await furthur instructions. ;) ;) ;)
No JA you have to discount the other ones they were all batsh** crazy, weren't they OP??
OP says we're going to have a luxury 6 star wedding in a luxury resort, aren't we OP? so you better make it a hat with extra feathers....
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Yeah I LOVE the extra feathers part!! ;D ;D
And make a place in the bathroom for that pre nup..need that to wipe butt with...
Hey OP I'm ready for an EA whenever you are!! ;)
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
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Yeah I LOVE the extra feathers part!! ;D ;D
And make a place in the bathroom for that pre nup..need that to wipe butt with...
Hey OP I'm ready for an EA whenever you are!! ;)
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry ITFTLH but you live in the same state as me, so I only have eyes for "V" - but thanks for the offer. :) :) :)
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I was going to mention we are only about 2 or 3 hours away from each other..but..well if it doesn't work out with V let me know!! ;)
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V
My advice with OP is no expectations. He may be all talk.
His plans seem a bit vague. What do we really know about him?
Butterfly
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Nothing!
That's the beauty part..he can make anything up he wants!!
( I'm laughing so hard I can barely type!!)
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INIFTLH
Did he just bomb drop you with that EA stuff? WTH!
V can have him. He's no better than an MLCer .
Butterfly
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No not really..I kind of suggeted it to him myself..I know... I know I'm really bad...
So I won't throw him under the bus
I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY BEHAVOIR.
Now that I've admitted it maybe that takes me out of MLC behavior??
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Maybe. But now I feel like I have to watch you.
Butterfly :o
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( I'm laughing so hard I can barely type!!)
DITTO!!!!!!
You know seriously I was talking to my sister and she was telling me once I am divorced, I should look in to YOGA classes.
Because only women take the class, kind of like this board the (the stats here are 4.2 women to 1 man). I like those odds!
I am taking a dance class right now and I am the only man in the class with 15 women.
Oh but did I mention that none of them speak English!
:) :) :) :)
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That'll keep you busy...
Just between you and me Butterfly:
It's so bad right now that I've invited a 70 year old widowed ex pastor over for dinner later with my two kids and to watch the Gospel of John on DVD!!
I'm really rippin' up the road I'll tell you! :o
OP
Oh you poor thing!! I feel so bad for for you...Sorry just jockeying for position with V.!
Hey I like to dance does that help?? AND I speak English
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OHHH WAit a minute...OP
Your just making this $hit up right??? I forgot about the nature of an EA.
Sorry...I got sucked in by the dancing part..my ExH told me to find someone who would dance with me since he won't
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OP and all-
I have to get in on this. LMAO!
I am taking a dance class right now and I am the only man in the class with 15 women.
Oh but did I mention that none of them speak English
OP- (hey OP -Taylor s-s-s-sssssss snicker, snicker)
Sorry!!!-
It doesn't matter if you can speak the same language...because you are speaking the language of L-U-V-E, and that is Universal BABY! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Lol. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Well I guess that depends on what kind of dancing your doing...maybe it's the Funky Chicken? Would that be considered LUVE?
OP I don't mean to make fun..you gotta watch out to what you admit to. I think it's great your dancing.
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INITFTLH
You've convinced me you're not MLC once you described that riveting dinner plan.
Sounds too normal.
OP
Is it ballroom dancing or more like Flashdance because that may change how V feels about you?
BTW is V asleep? You would think she had some comment. You two are practically engaged.
Didn't take you long to figure out GAL activities.
I was at the supermarket today in the frozen food section. Was a little slow today.
Maybe next week I'll hang out in produce.
V
Wake up before you lose your man to foreigners.
Butterfly
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Ditto that itftlh, on OP dancing. Kudos to you !
Hmmm funky chicken.....could be 'luve" Could be schmoopie kind of luve. lol
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Butterfly
Ohhh- LMAO!!!
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Holy hell don't hang out in the produce section!!! That's where my ExH ran into this Ex creature he found!!
I'm laughing so hard I don't think I can get the turkey out of the oven!!!
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Hmmm. I think I'm out of asparagus. Be right back.
Butterfly
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Well if you happen to see my exH tell him I said HI and to get his ass out of the produce section before I shoot him!!
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Consider it done. Any special herbs you want me to feed him if he comes home for dinner?
Im buying hemlock for mine as a housewarming gift.
Butterfly
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OP
Is it ballroom dancing or more like Flashdance
I am quoting from the flyer here
"Introduction to basic rythmic structure and movement.
Designed for the novice!"
Everyone speaks Spanish in the class.
And I am not making this up, it is offered in the Middle School of the town I work in and it was a FREE class.
So it fit my budget so I can save up for my upcoming marriage.
Mostly we have been doing Salsa dancing but the teacher said we might do Ballroom.
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B'fly: Well if he'd come anywhere near me to feed him... Hemlock would work just fine.
D18 just called me (I'm laughing my ass off when I answer the phone)...she says are you drunk??
I said no..and keep right on laughing..
OP Cool on the dance steps!! My dad tried to teach me to Jitterbug once...he was dissappoited but I think I was 12 at the time.
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Dun...dun...dunnnn- The plot thickens-
On last weeks episode OP is abducted by foreign dancers...
V has not been heard from, it is as though she has... vanished.....
Butterfly is rumored to be meeting strange men- as she is seen lurking by asparagas section...
itftlh has tried to warn butterfly about shooting some creature that had been lurking in the produce with a turkey ....
tune in next week..
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Seriously OP, I think that is cool you are taking that class. sounds fun! I am thinking of taking a mountain Dulcimer class thru community ed. Very low cost for a few nights.
Sorry Still didn't mean to run with your thread!
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Op
Sounds good. V will approve, if she ever gets back on line.
INITFTLH
Who needs alcohol? We can crack each other up.
Oops. Gotta go. I see your h now. Tall, wearing shirt and pants.
Looking at cucumbers. Does he like salad? ;)
Butterfly
Sideways I was typing when I saw your post. I am going to have an accident.
You are cracking me up.
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TOOOOOOOOO Funny!!!!!! Sideways!!!
SOMEBODY better wake up V and let her know I've got the home state advantage!!
And your damn right Sideways.. Butterfly could identify my Ex H as a "strange man" in about two seconds. Yeah he likes salad.
The a-hole ( ExH) was in that store for fiddlehead ferns last spring when this whole mess started...he told me the other day he never wants to see another one IN HIS LIFE( fiddlehead fern that is) !! This creature REALLY wrecked him!! Too funny!! Poor bastard...
Too bad OP and I are still in love with our MlCer's!
Hey maybe someone should let OP's Mlcer know that he's been abducted! Maybe that'l shake her up!
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Too bad OP and I are still in love with our MlCer's!
Hey maybe someone should let OP's Mlcer know that he's been abducted! Maybe that'l shake her up!
YUP!!!!! :)
I wish that would work. Mrs OP is a subscriber memeber of our board, but she hasn't been on here since the 2nd of January.
I guess she is too busy with her lawyer and screaming at me!
Link to second thread "Questions about the affair/OM/OW"
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1454