Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: LisaLives on January 29, 2013, 08:48:27 AM
-
Because I have always been a rebel here, I figured I would just start the thread. And as I have always told RCR, it is her forum and she can censure me as she sees fit! For those who don't know me, I am a three year veteran in the MLC war, a 2-year member of this forum, and I never called myself a stander. BUT I DO RESPECT STANDERS, and part of me truly wishes I had it in me, so I follow many stories here with envy, fascination and more than a little healthy jealousy. I stopped by Learning's thread to give her some public support for her interest in dating, and I saw a similar discussion on DGU's thread.
Rather than hijack, I figured I would put it out there for its own discussion. After much soul searching and healing, I have come to the conclusion that the ONLY thing I can't get from other people, men, or women, outside an intimate partnership is sex and true intimacy with a person of the opposite sex. I can have fun, be loved and feel support from my friends. But in deciding whether I could STAND for my M for any length of time, I had to decide if I wanted to forgo sex and intimacy until he DECIDES I might be a better option. And I don't want to. And ultimately, this is the heart of the issue we dance around here, when we talk about dating and moving on.
I believe sexuality is a gift, and just plain fun. I was pretty starved in my M and I don't see any good reason to sacrifice that part of myself at a point in my life when I have never felt better about who I am. It's sad that exH is missing this part of me, but he never really appreciated it. And to be totally honest, I can actually see myself open to the idea of returning to my M in five or 10 years having known a far better sexual relationship than I ever had in my M. But, if you are a person who looks at sex differently-- as a sacrament only enjoyed in marriage, or if your marriage was totally fulfilling in that regard and you can't dream of ever enjoying that with another, then standing becomes a lot easier.
And then there is the issue of true cross-gender intimacy. Soul baring conversations with a person of the opposite sex are not possible outside an intimate relationship. I can get a lot of that from girlfriends, but if you don't know what I mean about having a man who keeps your secrets, then you have never known true intimacy. The kind of relationship that we call an EA is exactly that, and you can't do it with your friends' husbands, we know that. I can get close with some of my gay friends, but it's not the same as post-coital pillow talk and having someone hold you when you cry.
I am 45 years old, and MLC can take a LONG time. I would NEVER encourage anyone not to stand, but I would encourage EVERYONE to live their life wholly and completely--NOW. There are lots of stories of people coming back to their first spouses after failed second marriages, and even third. And I do know many people who got stuck in permanent MLC. I also have to acknowledge another moral reality. My exH MARRIED OW. In my value system, and when I look at what I want in a partner, I want someone who will make the best of what he has. By marrying OW and making vows to her, and in effect, her two young children, when my exH starts to emerge from the tunnel, if he becomes the man I hope he can be, he will look at his situation and make the best of it. I could never hope that he would crush her and her kids like he did me and mine. Of course I could hold hope that she dumps him, but even then, I am hanging my life on the actions of someone I don't even respect, or really wish to know about. And I have to TRULY examine the person I am--how much forgiveness could I extend, and how much remorse would it take? Am I willing to hang my CURRENT life satisfaction on a possibility of a happy future, knowing that life can change on a dime and there are no guarantees?
And finally, we talk a lot about standing for ourselves and healing and getting a life. But to what end? When an athlete has a serious injury, they DO NOT sit out their sport. Their therapy will put them right back into doing things they used to do, so they can do it again. Most of our spouses are out their exercising their relationship muscles, for better, or worse. If they choose to come back, it will be because they did not find something better. I would argue, your relationship muscles are atrophied if you have never even sought another R. You can read and think and talk all you want, but until you experience a man telling you you're beautiful or a woman who speaks her mind, until you learn another way to compromise or resolve an argument, I would argue, you will have no idea how to create the R you really want.
And yes, it is my opinion, but no one can tell me I have not LEARNED in dating post-MLC. Some of the things are tiny, and some are huge. I wrote a post here a long time ago that it's like buying a new wardrobe. Most of us had the same clothes for years, until they disappeared. Now we are naked, and shopping, having followed no fashion trends. So you go to the store and for the first time you look at all the new things, and you realize your post-baby hips and changed hair color are better suited to other styles. What if you see the clothes you always dreamed of, but when you try them on you realize they are just not comfortable. And then you see something on sale that you never would have considered and it looks kinda ugly on the hanger, but when you try it on, you realize it's just you. And then when your old clothes reappear, will you want them back? At least you have a basis to make an informed decision.
And GALing. This is my opinion too, but no one will ever convince me that you can ever GAL if your main objective is standing for your marriage. That simple thought erases so many others. It closes doors and causes you to ignore windows, psychologically. You can talk all you want about not having expectations, but you do. Your expectation is that someday in the future, you will be reunited with your MLCer. And the reason I know this to be true is that even though I resist standing, a part of me still wants that. With every action I take to break that tie, I feel the pull and the conflict. I knowingly took up a hobby he despises and made friends who support me in that. It has enriched me immeasurably, but I do think it might be unforgivable to him. Can you, will you, consider a new career, a move, or a date from a handsome gentleman that could be a huge gift from God--if at the back of your mind lies the thought, "what would my MLCer think?"
So I would never try to convincce anyone not to stand, but define standing for YOU and your situation. If it takes 10 years for your MLCer to return and he or she can't forgive you a dozen bad first dates, will you really be able to forgive them? And if one of those dozen dates turns into a one-year R that convinces you that you really do want to wait for your ex, do you really think that will hinder your reconciliation? Or what if MAYBE you find a new and better love, matched to the person you are now, and you have five happy years before you lose them to cancer and then you reunite with your ex, will you be a worse person for it? And think about it from the view of the universe. I look around here and see amazing men and women, and people looking for people just like you, with patience and understanding, compassion and kindness. Perhaps, they deserve you. How selfish of you to withhold your gifts from the rest of humanity?
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.--C.S. Lewis
-
And as I have always told RCR, it is her forum and she can censure me as she sees fit!
You will not get censured here unless you use obscene words that can not pass the auto censor. And even then you can still type them they just print out differently.
Or if you start spamming us then you might get banned but I see nothing wrong with what you have written.
We just like people to be polite and respectful of others.
My exH MARRIED OW. In my value system, and when I look at what I want in a partner, I want someone who will make the best of what he has. By marrying OW and making vows to her, and in effect, her two young children, when my exH starts to emerge from the tunnel, if he becomes the man I hope he can be, he will look at his situation and make the best of it. I could never hope that he would crush her and her kids like he did me and mine.
Good point, I agree.
I have always maintained that you were STANDING for YOU and, in your case I can respect what you are doing!
I think you have made some excellent points IMHO.
-
I've missed you LL. So glad to see your recent posts and such a powerful one here. I understand where you are coming from completely and appreciate your candor about a subject many of us ultimately keep pushing down into the recesses of "someday."
I wish you every happiness in ALL aspects of your life.
Warmly,
Phoenix
-
LisaLives
I absolutely agree with every word you wrote. I love my exW dearly, but if I close the door to dating, how do I know if she is the best suited for me, and the best person for me to share the remainder of my life with?
I too have learned a lot from dating. And yes, numerous bad first dates.
When we first met, we were over 2 decades younger, our style, preferences, likes and dislikes all change. If we close the door to dating, how do we know that there isn't someone so much better than our ex's, just waiting to be discovered, someone who is more compatible and who can bring us joy for the rest of our lives.
I am now 44, MLC does take a long time, with no guarantees. I'm making the best decision for me. I also agree that if I am living my life to the fullest (GAL'ing) as IF they are not coming back, then why am I not dating?
Yes, standing is a personal decision. If in 7 to 10 years, my exW decides to come back, I will then choose if reconciling our M would be the best choice for me then. Healing and working on SELF are still on the agenda, but it doesn't need to be mutually exclusive from dating.
-
Hi Lisa,
Nice to see you back. Like you I’m not a stander. The difference is that I remain legally married to Mr J.
I’ve dated and had a boyfriend. I took miss sexual intimacy and that is something I want in my life.
Standing for me is for ourselves. If the marriage can make it, fine, if not, since we make it, fine.
Agree, we can choose to reconcile latter on with our MLCer if we want to. If we don’t want to, we don’t have to.
To me it is not even a question of the MLCer forgive us a few dates or a sweetheart. Inn my view there is nothing, in that regard, for the MLCer to forgive us. Forgive us what? That when they were living their life with someone else, married or not to us, we dated?...
If a one year relationship convince us we want to reconcile with our ex, if the ex also wants to reconcile with us, I’m certain there will be a reconciliation. The one year relationship may also make us realise the new person is better suited for the new us, or make want to stay single for a while.
It will depend of the relationship and of us.
-
Lisa,
If I didnt know better, you've read my mind. I wonder about all those things that you've written. Standing, yes that's what Im doing. Im 55 and wonder exactly how many years I have left. Do I wait for something that might never happen. I take my vowels seriously but he threw them away. Put them and me out with the garbage.
I live with my MLC'er so it does changes things a bit. Yes we do talk about healing, Galing, becoming a better, stronger person. Expectations, I totally agree, we have them. We are standing because we do have them. Theres no way around that.
Yes, MLC takes along time, do I want to wake up one day and realize that I wasted the last years of my life for someone who NEVER came around. These are the things that Im dealing with right now.
Im so glad that someone has finally put this out there. Its said, life is short. Live everyday like its your last. Is this what I want the last of my days to look like. Never feeling the warmth of someone next to me, never feel that kiss. Never to be able to tell that one person all thats in your heart.
This is my struggle, and it weights me down so much that I think Im going to drown.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for bringing this topic up. I will wait to see what others think
FH
-
LisaLives I want you to know that I totally relate to many of the things you have said in your post.
Interestingly sex in my marriage was quite good, although perhaps not as frequent as I would have liked. I could never initiate. The loss of sex is perhaps something I could put up with for a while, although not for years. Eventually my will power just fades out.
However cross gender intimacy is something I totally "get". My social life consisted of my husband and my husbands friends. Honestly in a traditional country I have little basis for building strong female friendships because of the lack of shared interests. I have no interest in shopping, birthday parties, and other traditional activities, as I would rather sit around with the guys and talk politics. This is not possible for a single woman here, but for a woman with a partner it is. Thus I have formed a partnership with a man, which allows me to go out at least occasionally to social activities which would otherwise be difficult for me to access. Will this "partnership" turn into a relationship? Hard to say as he is a confirmed bachelor but it sure makes my life easier to have someone I can turn to.
I can also relate to what you say about the world having changed....a lot. I am still blinking. There seem to be a lot of people out there who think it is fashionable to treat stable relationships are passe. I think stable relationships are....wonderful. I certainly hope I find myself in one sooner rather than later.
-
I also have to acknowledge another moral reality. My exH MARRIED OW. In my value system, and when I look at what I want in a partner, I want someone who will make the best of what he has. By marrying OW and making vows to her, and in effect, her two young children, when my exH starts to emerge from the tunnel, if he becomes the man I hope he can be, he will look at his situation and make the best of it. I could never hope that he would crush her and her kids like he did me and mine.
.
LisaLives I truly respect you for this.
-
Lisa, thank you for your very thought provoking post. I appreciate your honesty and candor. I know my thread is the catalyst for this. My pages are running very fast due to the topic.
I agree completely about the time frames. MLC can take so long and we don't know how much time we have. Do we truly want to waste it sitting around for "someday"? I am 53 yrs old. I still have my health and am able to do most anything I want to.
I also would NEVER encourage some one to not Stand. Standing has allowed me to gain myself back. I had no idea how much of myself I had lost over time. Standing means different things at different times. In the beginning it was to recover my M. But that takes 2 willing people. So far H is not willing. Now I use it solely as a Grace Period for my healing.
How long do I wait for a man who is really interested in nothing and no one? He is content to be
alone. I am the only one who can answer that. And I will just know when the time is up.
-
This is a fascinating thread, and a painful topic I don't know how to address.
I live with my MLC'er so it does changes things a bit. Yes we do talk about healing, GALing, becoming a better, stronger person. Expectations, I totally agree, we have them. We are standing because we do have them. ..... It's said, life is short. Live everyday like it's your last. Is this what I want the last of my days to look like. Never feeling the warmth of someone next to me, never feel that kiss. Never to be able to tell that one person all that's in your heart. .....This is my struggle, and it weights me down so much that I think I'm going to drown.
FH, I'm also struggling with this just now. My H lives at home... in the guest room, which I'm not allowed to enter... hugs are carefully parcelled out, but if H feels himself even slightly aroused or intimate, he drops me like a stone and runs like a rabbit to his room. He says this won't ever change for him. I'm still waiting. He's human and may yet change; and if H were physically sick, my needs would wait, so they'll wait now. But there's got to be a time limit to living an underloved, celibate life with one's partner, like two toddlers playing alongside each other. Life is to be lived, and loved. There will be an endpoint to the stalemate, one way or the other. I won't tell my H this for now (the need's mine, and unspoken); but someday I might have to.
-
I also would NEVER encourage some one to not Stand. Standing has allowed me to gain myself back. I had no idea how much of myself I had lost over time. Standing means different things at different times. In the beginning it was to recover my M. But that takes 2 willing people. So far H is not willing. Now I use it solely as a Grace Period for my healing.
How long do I wait for a man who is really interested in nothing and no one? He is content to be
alone. I am the only one who can answer that. And I will just know when the time is up.
Learning I think this says a lot. I'm standing not only for my marriage but for myself too. I have a lot to give and I can't give it to someone who won't take it. If my H decides he doesn't want it, then I'm going to explore the options of other r's. I won't become a martyr at the alter of my H's MLC..........but first I have to find me and be solid in that. Then I will have a whole person to work with.
-
I agree with you. Standing is fine and I did it for close to three years after the BD in addition to at least a year prior to that when the MLC and anger was building with my spouse. I said I was going to start my life 6/2011, took a trip to France, alone for the first time, and stayed at a winery in the South of France. I started a relationship 8/2011 and it ended a year after, only because of the competition that developed over my time with my younger son. I can be flexible, but my kids are very important to me.
I can say that the feelings and intimacy were the strongest that I've experienced, and I'm not just talking about the physical. I suspect it is because of the loss experienced through MLC, I've realized how important the meaning of a strong relationship can be. In my opinion, standing is fine, but my MLC spouse has taken so much from me, I'm not going to let her take away the ability to love again.
-
Awesome topic!
My sexuality is very important to me. Always has been. i found the lack of intimacy the hardest thing to deal with at the start as we had a pretty awesome sex life. I'm only relatively new to this crazy world of MLC so right now, even the thought of another R gives me the creeps! I obviously can't think of being with anyone but my man but that doesn't mean i'm not aware that that could change. Way, way , way further down the track who's to say i won't do so? i have to leave my mind open to any possibilities. That's one thing MLC has taught me. Be flexible and accepting of your situation coz anything really can happen! In all honesty, you never know how you would react in a sitution until it happens to you. Right now i'd say no, i couldn't possibly even consider dating but then I'm 40 years old (soon. sshhhh!) and i agree with what some others have mentioned, life is short and i can't envision a life without intimacy. And not just the pyhsical side, all forms of intimacy. It's too much a part of who i am. Hopefully I will be sharing it with my man again at reconcilliation :) i guess time alone will tell.
P.S. Damn i do miss sex though! ;)
-
This is a great Topic. I'm glad I stopped to read it.
I'm kinda new to the board. (you can search for my thread for full story) My H has left twice in our 21 years of marriage. The first 11 years ago and it lasted 5 months. I made a mistake by meeting a new man within 3 months, we hit it off, he counseled me, showed me joy and eventually I think fell in love with me. We were intimate once. I regreted it as soon as it happend, but it was good stuff (I was starved for attention I think and wounded terribly). H decided a month later he wanted to come home. My new man encouraged me to go back to H. This time BD 10/12; I found out about OW 2 weeks later. Found out they were living together day before Thanksgiving 11/12.
I'm still not 100% sure that H is in MLC (again see my story - H has some minor disabilities), but after reading MLC/Infidelity - it fits H to a T! But right now, I have NO desire to date or be intimate with anyone. I mean it has only 4 months since BD, but at this point 11 years ago, I had met someone and was trying to move on. So what makes this time different? Age? Circumstances? (H is living with OW, I never got confirmation of OW 11 years ago). Fear of dating as a 42 year old? Fear of another failed relationship? Fear of years of dating to find that "right" mate. Fear of being lied to again? Just fear in general ... so see I'm not ready yet.
Do I consider myself a "stander". Maybe. But I love all the points brought up by LisaLives. Maybe I should consider myself a temporary stander.... my H has told me (during an argument) that he will marry OW eventually. So, not only am I trying to sort through all the MLC stuff, remind myself daily that I'm not to blame (although I feel like it), learn to live on my own, take care of everything alone, I have to deal with the fact that my bestfriend/soulmate loves someone else enough to think about marrying them. So, I'm choosing to stand until I feel it's time for me to move on. And for me, standing will not be forever or even years. I've already made that decision. I think I will KNOW when it's time. I made a vow in front of God, my family and friends. I know that God has given me permission to divorce H because of his adultry and I know that when it's time to completely let go, God will let me know. For me, standing is about healing. H has told me at least twice that he wasn't "in" our marriage for the past year. Well, he needs to give me time to catch up. I need time to sort things out myself. I need to feel that I gave my marriage a chance even if H has already moved on. Right now, standing is all about me and not about H's MLC.
As far as dating, I want too. And maybe after healing, I'll feel more ready. Right now, my self esteem is shot. I feel undesirable and unlovable because I'm wallowing in too much rejection. I posted on my thread about 2 different incidents where I received compliments from men and since have gotten another ... it's nice to know your attractive, but feeling it is another thing. I need to FEEL attractive before I can even think about sexual intimancy with another man or even dating. I need to be able to go on a date and not want to tell that person my life story, every ugly detail. I need to get my identity back. And as I stated earlier, I need to get over the fear of the unknown. It's just I have so many friends that have been married, divorced and still single. I DON'T want to be single all my life like those women, but I want to find a good man that I can trust. I think after H and OW, I'll have trust issues in any relationship. I don't want to get played again and feel that I'll hold out giving myself 100%. So standing is about healing for me. But not forever.
-
Really good thread you've got going here!
I've only recently decided to end my stand and help the divorce go through, and it isn't because I feel there is no possibility for a future relationship with my H. I will remain open to that. But in the meantime I have begun seeing someone and he's great so far (very early stages). I refuse to end up waiting forever for my H to get past MLC, while kicking myself I didn't at least see what another relationship could hold. This is going to be how I keep myself from becoming bitter, and shutting the door on my H entirely. We will both someday be new people who can build a new foundation. That's the only hope we have. So I have to let him go... ALL OF HIM... and TRY to treat him in the future as if we don't have a past where he crushed me.
-
I made a mistake by meeting a new man within 3 months, we hit it off, he counseled me, showed me joy and eventually I think fell in love with me. We were intimate once. I regreted it as soon as it happend, but it was good stuff
In my life experience, I have seen this happen many times.
Maybe I should consider myself a temporary stander....
RCR has written extensively in her articles about the concept of standing at
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand_standing_clarifying-the-concept2.html
I especially like this quote:
"But why Stand for a marriage when your spouse has decided it is over? I don't see the point.
Then choose not to Stand."
but I want to find a good man that I can trust.
Prior to MLC, our spouses were often men and women of honesty, truth, integrity, pillars of the community. Their crisis seems to have erased what their core values were...but Conway at least believes that they will return to their core values if they were there in the first place.
How will you know that a new partner could be trusted anymore than the one you were married to for 10, 20 or 30 years?
-
LisaLoves
Thank you so much for starting this topic. Like many others on here, I too miss sex and intimacy. You've really made me think about what it would mean to have an intimate R with someone other than my H. I don't see it as a "well you've done it so I'll do it", but more of an exploration of my self. I am my own person. Right now my H is not present in our R. Is it wrong for me to GAL if part of that GALing is to enjoy intimacy with someone else? I have to ask myself honestly what I'm doing and what I want out of life and what is right for me. I don't believe there is a right and a wrong in this situation because it comes down to each individual. We're all different....
:) x
-
How will you know that a new partner could be trusted anymore than the one you were married to for 10, 20 or 30 years?
XYZ, that is exactly the question. We don't know. But if you don't take a chance, you will never find the answer either way. I will probably have trust issues for the rest of my life. That will join my fear of losing my home. When I was 8 yrs old, my dad lost his very high paying job. We ended up selling our wonderful Victorian home complete with a huge barn in the back. We moved to a very tiny 2 bedroom, 1 bath cape cod with 5 people. We qualified for food stamps and free lunches at school.
I have always feared losing my home and money again. I was never cocky about what I had or could afford because I knew it could be taken in an instant.
Now I know the same is for relationships. But I still am willing to try again if my M ends. My current home is a sort of recreation of my childhood home. There are many similarities. I feel I would use my knowledge about the good parts of the M to recreate what I loved about it. But I will forever be waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I didn't try to date early on. I knew I was too broken.
I need to be able to go on a date and not want to tell that person my life story, every ugly detail. I need to get my identity back.
Lovehim2012, that is exactly it. I feel no need to describe in detail to a new person what I have gone thru. I have reached that point. It's a boring story. It happened. The dates I have had were very superficial. Just small talk, and a reasonably had good time. I needed to see if I could do it. I can.
I refuse to end up waiting forever for my H to get past MLC, while kicking myself I didn't at least see what another relationship could hold. This is going to be how I keep myself from becoming bitter, and shutting the door on my H entirely.
Wed2Him, I feel this way too. My sister and her H divorced many years ago. She is one yr younger than I am. Her H did want to reconcile, but she was encased in a bomb shelter with her heart and feelings. She is alone, not happy and perhaps going thru a MLC herself as she is getting tattoos and listening to some odd music. She was delighted when H moved out on me. Misery loves company. She wants me to join her Man Haters Club. I am not going there.
CB, it is a scary thought to think about being intimate with someone other than my H. That part of this experiment is a long way off. I don't know when the specter of my H will fade away. I would still prefer him to be my one and only, but if he chooses not to, I will continue to heal from his betrayal until I would be comfortable. There is no time frame.
-
Our sex life was good, and I was always very satisfied with my H. I have to say that for the first four months after bomb drop just the thought of sex was absolutely terrifying. We had been married for 28 years. I mean I couldn't even masturbate because if I thought of sex with my H I started crying from his betrayal, and I couldn't imagine what sex would be like with someone else because it was just to scary.
I am now 14 months out and to the point that I NEVER think of my H in that way. This is in fact a good thing, because it really dulls the pain. If I still thought of my husband in that way the pain would be to much to bear.
However "moving on" is a relative thing. I have begun to think about what other men are out there, but they all have things in common with H. That is to say that I can tell that in some ways the men I am attracted to are simiilar to H, but in terms of values I am attracted to men who I have more in common with than I had with H. If I ever find a stable permanent relationship I know that it will be with someone who shares more of my values than H does. I have decided that this is important, more important than sex is. After all my drive is very strong, but I am aware that many men who are older than me experience decreasing desire anyway. The important thing is someone who respects me.
At this stage I am doubting that I will hold out till H returns. I dont see him coming out of the tunnel for six years or so, and by then I think it is likely I will have moved on.
-
I personally entertained the thougth of dating and even started looking again. This would only last for a day but my heart is not ready to open up. I'm not ready to be that vulnerable right now. I was so connected to him and he was the first man I completely opened up to and felt emotionally safe. I still feel he does keep me emotionally safe that's why he vanished, it protects me from him.
If it was about missing sex I could get that anytime but that's not what I want. I don't miss sex it's the intimacy that miss. We were really connected when we made love. We were really connected outside of making love but that's when our hearts beat as one. It would take our breathe away everytime. I had never experienced anything like it nor did he. We would comment on how that was our dance.
When he came back for 2 1/2 months the first time we made love after he left OW it was anything but that, it was definitely not what we shared between us. It almost made me feel dirty. It wasn't love at all, he knew it too. That's what I want again, those feelings, but it's clear to me that I am not ready to move forward in this area.
Another thing that reamins in the back of my head is not wanting to hurt someone. I don't want to think that I might be ready and then come to find out I wasn't. I do want someone to suffer bad consequences because of my actions. I will know when it will be time and until then I will continue on with what I'm doing because it's working for me.
Take care,
Lulu
-
Oops I mean that I don't want some to suffer bad consequences because of my actions. It's been a long week.
Take care,
Lulu
-
If I am honest, I have always been afraid to bring up dating on this forum for fear of upsetting the Standers. I have only the hightest respect for those of us who choose to Stand.
BD for me was in 2009. I initiated divorce to protect myself financially from his rapid and furious spending of money that neither of us had. He has never asked to come home, we only communicate electronically about the kids and the child support that I have to chase him for. I think that is how he manages to exercise the smallest amount of control over me. I stopped standing in 2011 when I decided that I would never be able to trust him again and that I had a life to live and children to raise without him. We had a pretty good sex life during the marriage, I did most of the initiating. So, I really missed sex when he was gone. I had friends, male and female and a busy social life along with my kids and work but I did miss the intimacy. The thought of getting naked in front of someone new after 22 years was terrifying too.
I started to date and let things happen naturally without worrying too much about it. When I found myself getting really attached to one particular guy, (and he knew my history so he never pushed), I seduced him one night. We had been dating for about a month at that time. It was good, not great but I think its because we were both nervous. We are still together, almost a year now and it is wonderful. He is a totally different lover than my ex. So there have been new sensations and new experiences. The relationship, such as it is, is so very different than the one I had with my ex. It's been a little difficult learning about someone new and his likes and dislikes and his triggers, (he hates my cats). It's hard when there are kids involved but luckily mine all like my new guy.
I don't know where this relationship is going to go, but it's fabulous right now. No pressure from either of us. We are just enjoying the time we spend together and the intimacy that comes with it.
-
Leftylulu - I know exactly what you are talking about when you talk of the connection with your H on all levels - including physically. I know what that feels like, it is very unique and special and is to be treasured.
-
OMG Kikki I could probably go on for days about this but I know what I had and I know my truths and I also know my lies. I lived a lie for 13 years in my last marriage (he's not my MLCer). The truth is that I am always searching my heart to know what is right for me. It is something that I had never done before.
In my last marriage I cheated on my husband but not in the normal sense. I never cheated on him with someone physically or emotionally, I cheated him out of love. I never loved him like I should have from the get go but yet I still married him. We never had that deep connection. I married him because I didn't want to hurt his feelings. When he asked me to married him I had that pit in my stomach but still said yes. Sure we had fun and good times but after being with my MLCer showed me that I never loved in him in true form.
I dated a few men before I found my MLCer but when I met him I knew instantly he was my one. I even told him that before his MLC started. It came from my very core. When we met I wasn't prepared for what was going to be the love affair of a lifetime.
I dated this one guy before him and stayed with him for 9 months before I got angry enough to break it off. This guy never liked anything about me and he was pretty vocal about it and yet he was crushed when I told him I could no longer handle it and left. I should have never gone on a second date but once again I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I see a pattern here in myself. I am always more concerned about the feelings of others but not my own. I've never remained true to myself. I sacrificed my own integrity for the sake of others.
I choose not to date because it doesn't feel right for me. I'm afraid I will fall back into some of my old patterns of behavior. I believe I will know when it's right and I don't have a need to rush it. So I'm ok with right where I'm at today. Who knows what the future holds but I'm living for today not tomorrow.
Take care,
Lulu
-
What a great discussion topic, thank you LisaLives for starting this.
... yes I miss that wonderful warm closeness that making love brings ... but cannot imagine it with anyone else right now. The thought kind of scares me ... maybe sometime in the future when my girls are older and dating ?? Who knows. Its a very personal thing and it has to feel right, both before and after.
xxxx
-
Well done LisaLives,
I think you speak for many people here and certainly reflect my view. All the descriptions you make about the wardrobe are sensible and correct.
My situation is slightly different in that I am not 45, this time last year I had my 60th birthday and now divorced. Something I did not expect as my father and uncle both died suddenly at 58.
So what I am saying is that , yes things can stop working and also time goes on. My wifes MLC I believe is now coming up to 5 years, I am not going to rot for anybody.
The thing about people who stand is that they are all determined people or we would not stand even for a short while. Although I think I stood for four years.
The good news is I hit the gym and told my wife that I was not going to be first reserve (in May 2011).
She has broken off and gone back to this guy six times. But I kept out of the way and it was not permanent. A little bit of drama is all.
I am fitter now than I have been for years and have met a few lovely people, some have blown me away and were truly lovely. I still make comparisons and my wife is a very hard act to follow.
My wife of 33 years probably was the Love of my life but she is with another man now and has had second thoughts, but she is still with him.
I believe you must keep things working or they stop working and this includes exercising your emotions and social interaction. I have learnt from my new experiences and one thing I have really learnt is that....... what I had before was good, but it was not the best that was possible.
New relationships, whether they are with your spouse or another, should have some aspirations to be better than before. There are many fish in the sea and pebbles on the beach and it is our duty not to waste our lives. I will always be monogamous and I have always been careful that partners should be what I was looking for and not someone to pass the time. So some relationships ended quickly but agreeably.
My grown daughters want me to be happy and I would not do anything to upset them or have a partner who did not understand their importance.
Romance should still continue and at the moment I feel like I am 25 again. That feeling is some tonic that I did not have while I was standing.
Life is good....I may be poorer financially, but I am happy.
-
Rock on Freddy! Great post!
LisaLives - awesome courage for you to start a discussion on such a sensitive topic. I'm in your boat.....I've moved on. Doesn't mean I loved my XW any less or more than anyone else on here; I just chose to be happy again. I've been D for over 1.5 years and have been dealing with her MLC for almost three years. She pushed hard and fast for D and I didn't have a choice. I forgive her but she's still in her own world. Yeah, I know three years isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things, but there are no guarantees in this mess so I have chosen to move on. I am dating and I am enjoying the alone time I have (never thought I'd say that!). I do miss my kids terribly as we split time but overall, things are pretty darn good. God has blessed me despite the pain and sorrow that I experienced. For that, I am very thankful!
-
LL
My X (through Monster) chose to attack where I was the weakest destroying the intimacy of our relationship in the process. I extensively dated (and had several short term relationships) after she left 3 years ago in an attempt to just start feeling again.
What I could not regain in that timeline was the holy trinity of an intimate relationship - Communication, Trust, and Respect. while I'm not currently Standing I'm also not seeking a relationship.
I still have a lot of healing to do before I will pursue any intimate relation including my X if she ever exits the tunnel.
Mac
-
There are so many valid thoughts and ideas on this forum and in this thread and in the continuing discussion on Learning’s thread. There are so many DIFFERENT people, with so many situations and circumstances. It is just not possible to compare everyone and determine that what is right for one is right for another.
All I know is that to advocate strictly standing, forever is a huge disservice to so many people. It doesn’t make any sense. And I admit, I am biased. I don’t believe in “soulmates.” When people talk about having some kind of magical relationship with their MLCer, I almost laugh—and I know that’s rude, but we laugh at the thought of their soulmate schmoopies--isn't it arrogant to think we were only ones that could have had THAT ONE PERFECT amazing connection with them? And I can laugh because there was a time in my life when I would have said the same thing. We had a beautiful and charmed life, everyone said so. We had a perfect meeting, a perfect wedding, perfect kids, and perfect careers. I thought I had a great sexual relationship, with that amazing connection, but he still left me.
And I do not place much stock in legal or even religious marriage, but I place HUGE value on a commitment to marriage as a foundation of a family, and it is for that reason that I still have not decided how much loyalty I still ow exH and if I could ever marry again--I have not been tested, so I stay uncertain. But underneath our M and family were huge cracks, in him, and in the way I dealt with them. There are no perfect people, or perfect relationships. And I do not believe MLC is a random affliction. I think it has DEEP ROOTS in fragile psyches. And therefore, every LBS needs to examine and really deal with the fact that the person who was supposed to love them most turned on them, often in horrible ways. And from experiencing different relationships, post BD, I now know my M was not what I thought it to be.
And then you get to degrees. Some MLCers are not truly horrible, by most measures, mine is not, but he did run far and fast. But in each situation, you have to deal with THAT reality. An MLCer that wants to stay at home and be physically abusive is not the same as the one who wants to stay home, but perhaps have a little thing on the side. Is it a little break with reality, and one day they will return, or is it actually a return to a previous reality to which ties were never severed? And this is where I see people make what I think are huge mistakes. My ex was wonderful for about the first ten years, but he started to change after we had kids. Looking at his family, I always saw their narcissism and selfishness and always thought I was so lucky that I found the one sibling that escaped. But I now know that he didn’t. His years with me were his valid attempt to be the person he wanted to be, that he SHOULD be. But now I see the man he always was underneath. I can look back and see the hints and seeds and the signs that I ignored when I thought I had a perfect life, married to my best friend. And the fact that I know more than a half a dozen permanent MLCers like him doesn’t help me, either.
Is it possible he could wake up one day and want to be the person I knew again? Absolutely. But how long might that take and how much work would it take on his part—A WHOLE HELLUVA LOT. Have I ever seen him work that hard at anything? Nope. It took me ten years, with three best friends who are PhD psychologists and my own IC to take off the rose-colored glasses. Like stayed says, we all just had MARRIAGES that fell on a normal bell curve, probably. We want to believe WE were the special and unique ones, but we couldn’t have been, or we would not be here. Could you become one of those great stories of redemption and forgiveness? Yup, but there are fewer of them than there are people who move on. I respect RCR and this forum, but I also think it stunts a lot of people, in many ways. Are people truly standing for the right reasons, or are they standing in FEAR? And until you address every single one of your fears and then decide that holding out for your MLCer is your best goal in your personal relationship life, you are not living, you are WAITING. It is so easy for people to make themselves self-righteous martyrs and stand by their man, but then they are giving up on themselves—they are truly drinking the kool-aid.
And, not all marriages are worth saving, especially at a point where someone has taken drastic measures to kill the love. People do change. In an ideal world people adapt and grow together, but we weren’t given ideal. And kids and other circumstances have a profound effect on relationships. There was no way I could ever know that my ex would make no wiling sacrifices for his kids and would resent every single one he did make. I knew sports and golf were important to him when we got married, and I made them important to me, but I never knew that he would hate me forever when I advocated him giving up his football tickets so we could send our kids to private school. He is now married to a woman who makes golf and Sports Center a priority. Do I want to compete with that? Illness, moving, job loss, all those things usually precipitate MLC. If the MLCer couldn’t survive THAT crisis, will they survive the next? When you get sick and are incapacitated and in a fragile state of R, do you want your MLCer to walk again, or would you rather be in a situation to be risking a new partner, or friends who have proven they will be there? And finally, what about the kids? What lessons are we teaching our children with every single action we take? And don’t underestimate their knowledge and what they WON’T say to you. Are you willing to keep your kids on the same roller coaster? Are you willing to let them eat cake and be a doormat? Is the practice of moral relativism one you want to endorse?
In all things, the only true emotions are LOVE and FEAR. Are you truly standing in LOVE, or are you standing in FEAR? And unless you firmly place yourself in the covenant keeper category, I assert that until you have tried something else, you really don’t KNOW that your MLCer is the best you can do, and I would argue that no matter what, you do DESERVE better—at the very least, someone who will not treat you with the reverence reserved for used Kleenex… Can you and are you willing to name and face all your fears? And the shame that goes along with it? Face the fact that we are all fixers, and fixers have a VERY hard time admitting they were wrong and made a mistake. Are you holding on with the hope that ONE DAY you will be proven right? How much are you sacrificing for that one tick? Can you face just being ordinary? That all you really are is a person who had a spouse that walked away? Of course we all have amazing qualities that make us amazing people and partners to the right people and we are all worthy of love. Are you willing to face your greatness? I leave you with another quote, made popular in the film Coach Carter…
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine as children do. It's not just in some of us; it is in everyone. And as we let our own lights shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. –Marianne Williamson Return to Love
-
Wow!!!! LisaLives I am loving what you're posting. The whole thing about LOVE and FEAR - that is so spot on. You make me ask myself questions and, as I see it, that is all part of this process of my personal development. Thank you so much for sharing :)
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine as children do. It's not just in some of us; it is in everyone. And as we let our own lights shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. –Marianne Williamson Return to Love
And this is such a great quote too. I'm going to add this to the other powerful quotes that adorn my fridge.
:) x
-
Lets see...you respect rcr and this forum, but you think she is doing a disservice by advocating standing? No one held a gun to your head to join here did they? We get it ...you are divorced and free to date! It sounds as if you disprove of the people here who chose to stand .......your viewpoint isn't unique at all .... It is how MOST people feel about staying married to men who behave this way.
SorryTo inform you , but this was intended to be a support forum for Standers ....
-
Ditto LG!
-
Lisa didn't say that advocating standing was a disservice, what she said was this:
All I know is that to advocate strictly standing, forever is a huge disservice to so many people.
The forever makes a huge difference. If I'm not mistaken, not even RCR advocates standing forever. DGU may be able to find the articles and blog posts were RCR refers to the issue.
Are we really goint to tell people, including the ones who are divorced, that they cannot date/remarry because they have to stand forever for a person who may, or may not, come back?
-
Thank you LG for speaking out.
This site is about Mid Life Crisis. Most of the information here is for the LBSer to heal, because we know that in true MLC marriages that end, it was not about the spouse nor the marriage.
So, this site has given to me over and over again, the support that I needed to move forward in my life. To find joy and peace and happiness in each day. I really don't know what purpose Lisa, you have to make comments to those of us who believe in the sanctity of marriage and who choose to stand. It certainly does not support anyone who doesn't agree with you.
When people talk about having some kind of magical relationship with their MLCer, I almost laugh—and I know that’s rude, but we laugh at the thought of their soulmate schmoopies--isn't it arrogant to think we were only ones that could have had THAT ONE PERFECT amazing connection with them?
I am sorry you did not have this type of intimacy with your spouse. I did for 32 years. In a flash, without warning, something changed....and I am not the only one that can see it in him.
And I do not place much stock in legal or even religious marriage
That is your prerogative. But again, there are many people on this site who live their religious values and beliefs totally and therefore the sacrament of marriage goes beyond our happiness on this earth and enters into what is for those of us who are religious, the more important consideration, our eternal salvation.
We want to believe WE were the special and unique ones, but we couldn't have been, or we would not be here.
MLC is not a marriage issue. Their crisis was inevitable and would have occurred regardless of who they married.
It is so easy for people to make themselves self-righteous martyrs and stand by their man, but then they are giving up on themselves—they are truly drinking the kool-aid.
I find this comment disrespectful and hurtful to the many LBSers who believe that the person they love is in a crisis. It is hard enough to stand without being ridiculed and told that we are not normal because we are not chasing after another man, that somehow we are inadequate because we are not actively pursing a sexual relationship.
This constant dialogue, pushing and pushing for some kind of recognition that you and you alone are right is not helpful really. We shall all make the decisions that we need to make to grow. We are not waiting, we know that they may never come back home....I have a very good sense of that reality.
-
Ehem....what is all this about from Lettinggo
' It is how MOST people feel about staying married to MEN who behave this way.'
Not very thoughtful? There are not many men on this Forum and the reasons for this are NOT that women don't have MLC, it is because Men tend to not have the ability to discuss it when it happens.
Now my MLC is still with OM (for 5 years) and has divorce me. I am not allowed on the Forum any more? I think we need the rules to be clarified.
I also think the way this thread is now going, you may lose quite a few members. Where is all this anger coming from?
-
LG- My take is that LisaLives did stand, and decided not to stand. and No, I'm sure no one put a gun to her head to join the forum. After Standing and subsequently moving on, she is telling us her story.
Do you believe that what Lisa is doing a disservice to Standers by telling them how she feels. I don't believe she dis-approves of standers, she is offering a different point of view, and asking questions that each stander should ask of themselves.
Are we so closed minded that we don't want to hear from a sister who chose a different path?
LisaLives- I believe you have put a lot of thought into what you wrote, and agree with many aspects. I especially agree with the fact that people are motivated by either fear or love. We need to determine the motivation for our actions. We owe the answer not to you, but to ourselves. Thanks for writing.
-
This is not a contest of who stands the longest or strongest. What we share is the devastating blindsiding sudden marital destruction. We ALL are actively trying to heal. If the dating piece rubs you the wrong way, think of it as an alternate variable in the live experiment of how one copes/moves onward/GALs. Once someone finds this site, I think they are a life member as this is a life altering experience and even with healing, there are scars. If you can forgive your MLCer for doing things that he/she did not do before, surely you are open minded enough to see that there is "more than one way to skin a rabbit." I don´t even think it is on the table to forgive or not forgive another LBSer if he/she stands differently. Some MLCers are so manipulative that they want an OP for themselves but put up roadblocks for the LBS to find a companion if he/she so desires. I am reading a book on Finding a New Loving Relationship and it is a MYTH that it takes one month of healing per year of relationship. Everyone is DIFFERENT. For me, the M is dead, h has done some horrible things, with MS I have no guarantees and I am NOT going to put my life on hold for him. I stood for us for over 1.5 years and when my well being was not even on his radar, I called it quits for us and started living for me. I have forgiven him for the behaviors. I realize that I could NEVER trust him again. Could we please support each other and not judge another by our own circumstances?
-
XYZCF, true, it is a personal, not a marital crisis. Yet, the homepage of The Hero Spouse has the line: Hope For Marriages in Crisis. If you ask me it should read: Hope For Those With a Spouse in MLC
As for Standing, RCR has wrote about it several times. Standing is not static nor has a Stander to always be a Stander. Also, by default the board allows for the following status: Standing, Done, I don’t know, Rebuilding & Building, Not Answereed Yet. Therefore, someone that is Done is allowed in the Board by the Board own standards.
From the site main page in RCR words:
“Some are Standers by action, while others are strict Standers in philosophy, believing divorce is an immoral action.
You may be a strict Stander, or you may choose to Stand without a strict aversion to divorce, or you may simply be uncertain whether your relationship is worth a Stand. It is for each individual to choose whether to Stand, or whether to step down. Some Standers are for Life, continuing to Stand knowing restoration of their marriages is unlikely. They are the Covenant Keepers, honouring their vows even as their spouse may marry another. Regardless of your beliefs and goals, you are welcome.”
Lisa, I agree you were a little overtoned. We were special and we the ones but our spouses had/are having a MLC. That does not makes us doormats or wrong. This said, you have as much right as anyone else to be here, tell you story and you view points.
However I would like to suggest everyone to tone down a little. There are many ways of saying the same thing. Thanks.
-
My ex was wonderful for about the first ten years, but he started to change after we had kids. Looking at his family, I always saw their narcissism and selfishness and always thought I was so lucky that I found the one sibling that escaped. But I now know that he didn’t. His years with me were his valid attempt to be the person he wanted to be, that he SHOULD be. But now I see the man he always was underneath. I can look back and see the hints and seeds and the signs that I ignored when I thought I had a perfect life, married to my best friend
Oh Lisalives, this describes my situation to a T! It is making me cry.
-
The beauty of our all being unique beings is the freedom of expressing ourselves in our truest and most honest form. We must all stay true to ourselves. An opinion is just that, an opinion. And i for one, respect them all. I take no offense if anyone's ever differs to mine and i in no way offer mine with the pretence of assuming it's right. If it comes from your heart, it is your truth. the fact we have the opportunity to share our opinions on this site is a blessing. I for one am grateful for all of your differing views. Nothing is black and white and I, personally prefer living in the shades of grey. It's never boring that's for sure ;)
Just for the record:
♥I am standing in LOVE not fear. I faced my fears way before BD. I have faced my demons many times in my life and have thankfully beat (most) of them. In truth, i fear very little now, if anything, whereas before, I feared everything. Mostly failing myself. Acceptance of your situation, no matter what it is, dissipates fear. Fear is ego based. Face your ego, face your fear. Then, all that's left is Love.
♥I DO believe in 'soul mates' however i think of them more as a tribe. . ..my tribe. I do not believe that we have just one soul mate as such but many. and they may not come to you in the form of a lover/husband/wife. They can come to you in simple friendships. I believe we draw certain people to us at certain points in our life for a reason and they serve their purpose. i DO believe the connection i have with my man is a soul connection. i do also believe that he will always,in some way, be a positive part of my life. and you know what, even in MLC, he believes the same! He knows we have a connection. Where that connection takes us is up to the Universe. it has bigger things in store for us. This i know.
♥ What we did have WAS unique, it WAS magical! BD honestly rocked me to my very core! It rocked everyone who knew us. It was just so impossible to think it would happen to us. We always used to say how lucky we were because it was just so 'easy'. We led a blessed life. There was just no reason for it to happen to US! oh hang on, yes there was.. the reason was HE is in a crisis. it has NOTHING to do with our wonderful relationship. It had EVERYTHING to do with his sense of self and identity. (and yes, MY own, not us as a couple) His feelings for me didn't change, HE CHANGED!! And he is still changing. I'm not letting MLC rob me of the most amazing 20 years of my life. I refuse to let what has happened the last 8 or so months tarnish what i know, what i believe to be the very best years of our lives. What is missing is in HIM.
♥Sorry but I am awesome, I am special and I am most certainly unique. No-one will ever match that. Yes, the OW or anyone else who enters his life is 'different' but it's not me. You cannot replace what we had. And i guarentee you, he is comparing this 'new' life with the old. It's not as good and he knows it. He's admitted as much to me and yes, that I believe. If we weren't unique and special, why the hell would they still be hanging around?? They are hanging on for a reason, they aren't letting us go completely. SOMETHING must be keeping them there, keeping an eye on us. And we don't have kids, he could just be gone. But he's not.
Thanks for letting me share my opinion. But remember, it's just MY opinion...
Love and light to you all :)
-
All we own are OUR OWN FEELINGS AND REACTIONS. I did not come here to argue, and my posts are not necessarily advocating "dating." They ARE advocating opening ourselves to the possibility of not strictly standing forever. Many of my comments have been taken out of context.
I do respect people who choose to stand--they have no questions--I admire that. MOST people are not that morally convicted. MOST people who come here in pain KNOW they won't stand forever, but their pain is no less real, their marriages had no less meaning, and the sudden shift in reality was no less shocking. The problem though is that permanent standers dominate the conversation and newbies might be left wondering where they will go when don't have the stamina or desire to stand any longer. Are they failures? Do you really believe that?
Why do you react so strongly? Are you afraid if non-standers don't leave they might come back in several years with reconciled M's even though they did not stand? Are you afraid they will be happier than they ever dreamed in new M's? Why do my words bother you so much? Take what you need and leave the rest… I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right--only that if they have the same questions I have, if their situation looks anything like mine--meaning I did not have the perfect M and perfect spouse and they have no strong moral conviction to stand--that they owe it to themselves to explore their stand and their reasons for standing.
And RCR says in many places that standing is different for every person. Can you stand if you had an open marriage? What would that look like? Are you standing if you never date, but end up in an EA with your work spouse? The idea that standing is behaving as if your marriage still exists while your MLCer is out leading another life with another woman and family is farce, at some point. Was sex the only part of the vows that counts? Why remain sexually chaste while separating finances is advocated?
No one has to answer to me, no one has to read anything I write. RCR has NEVER asked me to leave even though I have raised many of these issues before, but I always tell her I will leave if she wants me to. I have corresponded with her about standing in my case, and she admitted it's a tough call. But, on the other hand, the soft part of me that loved the man I married--heart, mind, body and soul--the person who made those vows with deep conviction, still feels like a stander in many ways, and still struggles every day with when I will know that I am totally done--will I ever be able to truly let go, and if not, why?
And I still have to face my fears every day. The fear that he might come back and I might have moved on. If that happens, will what I have be better than what I might have with him? Even if he did come back, could I ever forgive him? And what about my kids, what is the best thing I can do for my kids, find a man who treats me well, or find a way that leads me back to their D, who has hurt both of them, also. What would they really think if I ever took him back? And if I wait, is that the easy way out? Because no matter what happens, I can BLAME him forever—that I was true, but he screwed up my life, that I sacrificed everything for him. What ARE my biggest fears, and what will take for me to face them? Are they emotional, sexual, financial, are they about pride, or esteem, or security?
I do NOT have ANY answers, only questions, but I also don’t believe anyone, not even RCR has answers, only theories… Love and light to all, ll
-
LisaLives - i love your spark! You make me smile. i love when someone throws a 'spanner in the mix' so to speak.
Gives me more to ponder on.
Light and love to u too ;)
-
I have enjoyed what LL writes mostly because it does make me think. I like having different perspectives. My daughter made me think last night. I am a longtime stander and continue my stand with no need to justify why I stand. At first I found it almost a little too contraversial but I don't mind it when I find myself outside my comfort zone. It means I'm growing.
Take care,
Lulu
-
I feel it has been very healthy for everyone to consider the issues put forth on this thread.
As LL points out, most come here in extreme pain. All are looking for answers. The answers are elusive because the MLCer is operating alone and on a very selfish plane of existence. Did we contribute to this? Probably. Can we fix it? No. Unfortunately, we need to wait for the MLCer to find their own way. This is very hard to allow to happen. A broken person trying to heal and figure out their life.
I believe that everyone here loves their spouse. Even if the love is there, are they prepared to Stand indefinitely? That's up to each individual. I only have to live with me. Each person here only has to live with themselves. It's all about what you can live with.
Do you want to Stand indefinitely? Then do it. There is no shame in that. It all depends on your personal preference. Will it be better for the LBS to continue a long stand or is it better to move on and hope for a reconciliation down the road? Only the individual LBS can make that call.
-
LL, I just want to thank you for a very well thought out and extremely well-written thread topic. You speak for many of us in that we are young and do not want to spend our lives alone, although we still love the ones who no longer want to be with us. I loved everything you said and it resonated with me in that I was part of the similar discussion on DGU's thread. As of now I'm standing and have made no moves toward dating or pursuing anyone else as I have to prioritize the kiddos, but will that be the case by the end of the year? By the end of next year? I don't know what is most right for me, but I definitely want to share my life with someone and hope it's my XW. But, if she really has made up her mind and moved on........
-
Welcome to your new thread Lisa Lives. Know you are very, very welcome and your thoughts and insights are greatly appreciated.
hugs Stayed...
-
Lisalives.... where have you EVER seen any encouragement for anyone to stand indefinitely? I think you are projecting... bigtime... and I don't say that with disrespect or anger at all.... it just isn't making any sense... mething thou doth protest TOO MUCH!!
RCR DID start her forum for people who are NOT considering divorce... although most of us fall into the category of keeping it as on option... she mentions "Covenenant Keepers" as an example of those who "stand indefinitely", but so what if they do? WHO IS IN CHARGE OF YOU???? Not me... Not anyone BUT you!!
I feel like you are "CONCERNED" that someone here will get SUPPORT for "not divorcing or dating"... WELL... let me tell you something... the WHOLE WORLD supports people who feel divorce is best for them... the WHOLE WORLD supports those that feel infidelity deserves a kick to the curb.... the WHOLE WORLD is UNCOMFORTABLE with women or men who STAY with cheaters, because very often.... men/women stay with cheaters because of low self esteem.... but I can tell you FOR SURE, that anyone on this forum who is STANDING FOR THEIR MARRIAGE is swimming against the tide.... taking the HIGH, HARD road.... following their GUT INSTINCT, but suffering RIDICULE for it....
No one came onto the "I'm moving on for a lot of valid and personal reasons" forum and tried to convince you to STAND!! We were just HERE... STANDING, and you showed up, QUESTIONING OUR PERSONAL CHOICE, and NOW, according to YOUR posts on THIS particular thread, you feel the NEED to warn us against "standing indefinitely"... uhhh. ...I feel comfortable in saying I have read every article published on this site by RCR... several times... if I didn't agree or get something from it, I wouldn't be her part of the time... but I CERTAINLY wouldn't be WARNING anyone against some phantom encouragement to stand forever, or disagreeing with the SITE OWNER!!! WHY??? Like I said.. there are plenty of websites, forums and certainly REAL LIFE support for people who would NOT describe themselves as "standers".... WTH does this have to DO WITH YOU????
Oh, and to anyone who feels just like LisaLives, this is not an attack... but WTH are you gettin from this site if you DISA-firetruckING-AGREE with everything RCR started this website for??? Really? It's like an Atheist trolling on a CHRISTIAN website arguing with the convictions of the members..... no one asked you to agree or disagree... but WTH are you here for, really? HEALING???? That's a crock... you are here because you are UNCERTAIN OF YOUR OWN CONVICTION..... think about that. IF YOU ARE SO CERTAIN THAT STANDING IS NOT FOR YOU... then why aren't you over on Match.com right this very minute??? Oh..... because you aren't CERTAIN and you have QUESTIONS....
-
I find it hard to take one side or the other on this issue. It is a topic that all of us have , or will deal with, determining whether to continue standing, or when it's over. I've given my spouse many opportunities to reconcile and the answer is vague, and one quote, "I really haven't thought about it." Facing the fact that a number of MLCer's do not come back, many of us will be left alone. I know my wife's resolve and I don't see her coming back.
I stood for my kids while they were teenagers. I felt that since I had a solid upbringing, that I owed it to them to stabilize the household. They are going to be 19 and 21 this year, and they need to move on somewhat with their lives. I've been in a holding pattern for over four years and nothing has changed with regards to her personality except that she's not as angry.
In summary, standing is a topic for this board and a time of letting go is also part of the process. Trying to argue this topic is like trying to argue which religion is right. I suggest you view all perspectives because we all have to to face the fact that our spouse may not return.
-
LG, I always said I was uncertain. I don't have strong convictions about much of anything...
I am not sure why that rant was necessary, but if it made you feel better, so be it. I have huge doubts about Christianity too, but one of my best friends is a PASTOR who loves to drink wine with me and have deep philosophical and religious discussions about where we differ and where we are the same and how she still chooses God and Jesus Christ. She never rants at me, nor does anyone in her lectionary group who love my questions.
And no LG, no one else knows what it is like to make the choice we make, to stand or not to stand when the person you loved becomes someone you don't even recognize. No one else knows what it's like to ride the crazy train. All I was doing was putting out there the thought that if you are not going to stand forever, how are you going to decide when you are done, and if you choose to stand, are you really sure why. If those questions are too uncomfortable for you, then don't read them. I am not the one protesting!
Love and light to you, I hope that gave you peace, ll
-
Why do you react so strongly? Why do my words bother you so much?
My own feelings about this is the exact opposite. Somehow the words of Standers seems to bother you a great deal.
I have been thinking a lot about this thread and why it concerns me. I feel like there is this thought pattern emerging, that is the same thought pattern that our MLCers have as well as the rest of the world. That marriage isn't meant to last forever, that MLC really doesn't exist and thus trusting the process is such a waste of time, 6 months post BD.....go out and date and you'll feel much better.
That's what so many LBSers hear from their families and well meaning friends, and I often read people's frustration of these words that are said outside a website that support marriages. So hearing it here, is disturbing.
Most of all, I believe in saving marriages. My marriage may not ever be rebuild, but perhaps something I say will help another marriage from this site make it. One marriage saved will be enough success for me.
For people who are not sure of standing or are new to MLC, the time that we need to heal is a time where a great deal of support and acceptance is required which leads me to.......
Many of my comments have been taken out of context.
The problem though is that permanent standers dominate the conversation and newbies might be left wondering where they will go when don't have the stamina or desire to stand any longer. Are they failures?
Is it a problem that I as a "permanent stander" which I am not quite sure what that means because I have no clue really when that might change for me to "dominate" the conversation.
I have never said that someone who doesn't stand is a "failure" ;
The idea that standing is behaving as if your marriage still exists while your MLCer is out leading another life with another woman and family is farce
Well, that's not according to the information here. This is a crisis. For some of us, our marriage still does exist because for many people here, our belief system is such that this is what we believe.
Because no matter what happens, I can BLAME him forever—that I was true, but he screwed up my life, that I sacrificed everything for him.
OK Lisa, that sounds to me as really blaming him messing up your life. It may not be what you meant but it is how it sounds.
Look, a variety of opinions are very valid and exploring oneself is part of the journey for the LBSer. I could stay away from reading anything on this thread but for some reason, there is this undertone of us against them and I am very sorry to see that on a site that has been so valuable and supportive to so many people.
I do not mean to hurt anyone by what I am saying, I can only express what I am feeling...and somehow it is not even about my own stich, it just seems to go against the grain of the information and knowledge that we have gained about MLC.
-
Marriage is supposed to last forever but it does not mean it will. We have people here who are on their second marriage, or are the second (or even third) spouse of their MLCer.
I’m assuming the first time those people married they thought it was going to last forever. For whatever reason, it didn’t. Now I’m certain they hope their second marriage, or first to someone who has been married before, will last forever.
We also have many divorced people here. Some remain to consider themselves married, for religious or personal reasons, some no longer consider themselves married.
Some of us are still married but do not have a marriage (or a spouse around). Some of us have been without a marriage for years on end.
I don’t think anyone is talking about going out and date after 6 months. But the truth is a MLC lasts, on average, from 3 to 7 years. In that space of time some of us will be divorced, some will meet someone new, some will have their MLCer back but no longer what to be married to them or reconcile with them.
As for the marriage, RCR writes that the old marriage is dead and that it is not possible to work on the marriage while the MLCer is on crisis.
Trusting the process is not the same as stand. Also one can stand and trust the process and, at a point, choose not to stand anymore. Can anyone here really say how they will be feeling about standing 3, 4, 5 years from now? RCR often writes about how nearly all MLCers come out of the crisis but they will not found the LBS waiting for them.
Lisa is divorced, her husband married OW. Her BD was 3 years ago. Yes, 3 years is short on MLC world, but if a person is divorced, the person can choose what to do. Date, remarry, stand.
There is another thing, some of us were quite young when BD happened. I’m still legally married to Mr J after 6.4 years. That means I will be childless because I cannot remarry. Women have a biological clock that, often, is not compatible with MLC time frame.
Also, one can stand, choose not to stand, and then go back to stand. When people arrive here they want to save their marriage and stand. Most are standers. But time goes by, people start to focus more on their own healing, years go by, people may change their mind about standing.
Not all marriages will be save and not all marriages will be reconciled. If we can save and reconcile marriages good but we know that is not possible to every single marriage.
Don’t see much against the information and knowledge we have learned about MLC. RCR writes that not all marriages will survive, that most of the times the MLCer will not found the LBS waiting for them.
And, if I’m not mistaken, RCR has given herself a timeframe. If her husband was not done within that timeframe she would start considering other life options. I may be wrong about this but I think RCR has talked about it somewhere.
-
I entertained the idea of dating. I even talked to a couple of guys with the intent of possibly dating. I was glad I did because in my heart I felt unfaithful and that was the key for me to totally commit to continue my stand. I know who it is in my heart that I love and that was what I needed to know especially since mine has vanished heading into year number 4 next week. It help me let go of the timeline, it helped me to quit questioning whether I want to continue stand or not, it renewed my love for my MLCer, it brought back all those wonderful memories. I still to this day remain faithful to him in everyway but I needed to entertain the thought of dating so I knew for sure I was on MY right path.
I can now say I stand totally commited in body, mind, and spirit.
Take care,
Lulu
-
None of us have any idea what our futures will hold. None of us have crystal balls.
Each day I wake up - I go about my day knowing that despite all of the antics, that I still have a very strong connection to my H.
If one day I wake, and I no longer feel that, then I know other doorways will open because that one has closed.
I hope this doesn't happen - I hope he wakes up before the connection between us disappears, but I have no way of knowing this.
But I will know if the energy between us was to die. That will be the day I would start making other choices. For now, I carry on knowing that neither of us are yet 'done' with each other.
-
LG,
We keep coming back to the site because in our darkest hour this was the place that kept us from losing it completely and now we have formed bonds with folks here. Simple as that- it became our crisis support network and evolved into friendship and then moved to RL friendship. HS people understand a level of pain that is likely incomprehensible to an outsider.
We come here b/c most of the time the folks here inspire us to keep going on the path to wholeness, or as whole as one can be after such an experience. We continue to post so that others can see what happens in the wake of MLC over time. It is continued support and data collection that draws me.
What kept me standing for a long time were Hope Float´s, Subaru´s and Still´s stories.
When I saw that they, much more patient than I, did not have the outcomes that we all desire so deeply, my mindset started to shift.
I did Stayed´s 3 month rule 3 times and felt at peace in dropping the desire for a reconciliation.
I do hope h finds his way as it is a waste for someone with so much to offer to live a crippled emotional life.
The damage he dished out in the meantime was enormous and enough for me to release hope, expectation and desire.
FTT
-
What kept me standing for a long time were Hope Float´s, Subaru´s and Still´s stories.
When I saw that they, much more patient than I, did not have the outcomes that we all desire so deeply, my mindset started to shift.
Everything will come out all right in THE END.
And if it has not come out all right yet - then it is not THE END.
SO do you think the above three indviduals are at THE END?
-
What kept me standing for a long time were Hope Float´s, Subaru´s and Still´s stories.
When I saw that they, much more patient than I, did not have the outcomes that we all desire so deeply, my mindset started to shift.
Everything will come out all right in THE END.
And if it has not come out all right yet - then it is not THE END.
SO do you think the above three indviduals are at THE END?
Please define "all right", OP.
-
Clearly this topic is a touchstone, and understandably so. It hits to the heart of what we most fear - that our choices may leave us without the light of love in our lives. It's a terrifying thought. But people, so much anger?!
No one came onto the "I'm moving on for a lot of valid and personal reasons" forum and tried to convince you to STAND!! We were just HERE... STANDING, and you showed up, QUESTIONING OUR PERSONAL CHOICE, and NOW, according to YOUR posts on THIS particular thread, you feel the NEED to warn us against "standing indefinitely"... there are plenty of websites, forums and certainly REAL LIFE support for people who would NOT describe themselves as "standers".... WTH does this have to DO WITH YOU????
Oh, and to anyone who feels just like LisaLives, this is not an attack... but WTH are you gettin from this site if you DISA-f*ckING-AGREE with everything RCR started this website for??? Really? It's like an Atheist trolling on a CHRISTIAN website arguing with the convictions of the members..... no one asked you to agree or disagree... but WTH are you here for, really? HEALING???? That's a crock... you are here because you are UNCERTAIN OF YOUR OWN CONVICTION..... think about that. IF YOU ARE SO CERTAIN THAT STANDING IS NOT FOR YOU... then why aren't you over on Match.com right this very minute??? Oh..... because you aren't CERTAIN and you have QUESTIONS....
Um, yes, this WAS an attack LG. Suggest you might try letting go yourself. Every individual on this board has their own personal journey, and one person's choices (and willingness to discuss them) don't invalidate yours. Your response reads of fear and exclusion, and it's giving me hives. I, like many others, am here for healing. There's no pre-requisite in RCR's website that we conform to one mindset for dealing with our respective situations. In fact the diversity of opinion keeps all our conversations fresh and revealing.
I think we need to respect that we ALL have questions. All the questions are valid. If we didn't have questions that no one else but another LBS could answer, would we even BE on this board??
-
Each day I wake up - I go about my day knowing that despite all of the antics, that I still have a very strong connection to my H. If one day I wake, and I no longer feel that, then I know other doorways will open because that one has closed.
But I will know if the energy between us was to die. That will be the day I would start making other choices. For now, I carry on knowing that neither of us are yet 'done' with each other.
This feels so true. I too feel like the last chapter on my relationship hasn't been written... so i'm slowly turning pages and waiting to see what words come next. But if someday there are no more words, then with sadness I must close the book. And maybe, eventually, open a new one.
...come to think of it, as a child did you ever read the "The Monster at the End of This Book"?? ...Maybe I want to stop turning pages ???
-
I dunno, maybe Lisalives is just another prompt for us to think, nothing more than that. It's cool, thats her way. Each to their own. It does no harm to listen to how others have dealt with this whole situation agree or disagree. Nothing to get bent out of shape over. If my h had moved in with another woman, i would not be here that would have been a step too far for ME, but i do not judge others who choose to accept that situation either and still want to be with their h's.
I personally have not made a decision to stand as such, it just kind of happened that way. I made no concious decision to not have another relationship and give up on h. It felt like the right thing to do at the time and when it doesn't feel right then i will go looking.
Standing is not likely indefinitely in anyones case. Maybe for some the writings about MLC preditcting 5-7 years max would make them think ah well, best get on then once that time has passed???. Love is not enough sometimes.
Just my 2 pennies worth.
SD
x
-
This feels so true. I too feel like the last chapter on my relationship hasn't been written... so i'm slowly turning pages and waiting to see what words come next. But if someday there are no more words, then with sadness I must close the book. And maybe, eventually, open a new one.
...come to think of it, as a child did you ever read the "The Monster at the End of This Book"?? ...Maybe I want to stop turning pages
My little sister had that book :) Maybe we can't turn the pages because it hasn't been written yet. For now we're working on our own novella.
-
I personally have not made a decision to stand as such, it just kind of happened that way. I made no concious decision to not have another relationship and give up on h. It felt like the right thing to do at the time and when it doesn't feel right then i will go looking.
I never really made a decision to STAND either. Quite frankly way back in 2004-5, I didn't even hear of such a term. I really STOOD by accident, at first because I was paralyzed and simply couldn't move. I think I mostly "drooled" for the first 3 months. The next 3, I was pleased I could sort of walk, talk, almost at the same time... then I went to New Zealand. Drooled and trolled the beach for the first month, after I found myself a nice little hole, to stay dry in. Finally, I could think. That happened sometime in the 7th. 8th. month.
I'm cautious by nature. The idea of cancelling all those bank accounts, retirement accounts, pensions, house deeds... ughhhhhhhhhh, the very thought of going down that road, froze me in place a little longer.
Look, STANDING was the best thing I ever did for ME! It saved me from myself. Protected me, from making the situation worse. From what I can tell Lisa Lives has not suggested that we should not STAND, she simply has prodded us to CONSIDER, a time frame. CONSIDER other options. Considering, researching, thinking about what ELSE we can do.
Sorry, I just can't see anything wrong with this thread. I totally agree with what Kikki wrote
Quote from: kikki on February 01, 2013, 10:14:39 PM
Each day I wake up - I go about my day knowing that despite all of the antics, that I still have a very strong connection to my H. If one day I wake, and I no longer feel that, then I know other doorways will open because that one has closed.
But I will know if the energy between us was to die. That will be the day I would start making other choices. For now, I carry on knowing that neither of us are yet 'done' with each other.
I think most of the people on this forum feel very strongly, as Kikk doesi. That being said, Kikki has not CLOSED THE DOOR on any options. She recognizes that she might not feel that "connection" forever and when she does... she shall take the next step best for her. Discussions like this are not THREATENING what she or any of us BELIEVE in. We all have our own agenda, our own opinions and are not AFRAID to consider, viable suggestion to aid us on our journey.
Loving this discussion. Hugs Stayed
-
Stayed is correct in that no one's values or beliefs are being directly threatened. No one is being chastised for standing, and RCR has made it clear long ago that this forum is not only for standers but for all those affected by their loved one's MLC. We are of many different faiths, races, cultures, continents, sexual persuasions and many other "labels" but in the end we are all bonded together by our shared experiences and support of each other.
One point I would like to make is that we have to consider all possible actions before determining the one that suits us and that we will be able to live with ten years down the road. This was the advice given me by my mentor soon after BD and is still true today. So far, I will be able to look back ten years from now with no shame whatsoever because I have remained true to myself, my kids and my beliefs throughout and still am. As Kikki said, what happens when I wake up one day and no longer feel that bond with XW? By faith we are one body but at what point does what made the other person who they were effectively dead? Is the person we spent our many years with gone for good, or did we never really know them at all? Hard questions to answer and for each of us it's different. And, what if the greatest fear for most of us is true and WE are the ones who are deluded and rewriting history? What if we are seeing our spouses as crazy because they just don't see the world the same as we do? Yes, we have people telling us our spouse is crazy now but in most cases that is our friends or family. Wanna bet THEY have people telling them WE are crazy and a bunch of losers? Yep, that's life. Life IS perception. A wise man once said that life is made up of 10% what happens to us and 90% how we deal with it. Our MLCers are dealing with it a different way than we chose to, but it is real for them. Perhaps for most our spouses are really gone for good AND with good reason. What then? Maybe our mistakes are unerasable and our futures sealed when it comes to our Ms. I hope not, but do we stand for the rest of our lives and chide those who don't? Of course not. They are no more wrong or right than we are. And the last thing any of us needs in our sitches is to become martyrs.
-
Well said Thundarr!
hugs Stayed
-
T,
Were I a betting woman, the odds of us being the "bat$hit" crazy ones is very, very low. Devastated? Yes. Cycling at the beginning? Yes. But "crazy"? No. Crazy for us is seeing the 180 in the spouse and NOT living as if it is bizarro. Living on eggshells is our craziness- and thankfully it passes fairly soon. I can only hope that the MLC unbalanced phase also passes. It is an emotional disorder with some sort of physiological component and I for one would not want to live in their bodies. Think back to adolescence with the hormonal mood swings- teary, joyful, irritated, sad repeat. The saddest part is that help is available and they do not avail themselves of it.
How many out there will tune into the PUPPY BOWL today:)?
FTT
-
I have read many topics on here. One kind of perlexes me...
Can you really date/have relationships/be intimate with someone else while you are "Standing"?
I am curious to know the opinions of others.
Thank you.
-
That is a great question and one that I have thought about as well.
For me, I think it comes down to the legalistics of the relationship. If you are divorced, absolutely ok even if you are standing. If you are still married, I would think that dating would be the same as infidelity. Depending on how long ago that you experienced the BD, you may also feel guilt along with regret if you date before you are ready emotionally.
I think I would have a few questions about it: Are you doing it to make the other person jealous or in hopes of making them jealous? Are you trying to figure out if you want to continue standing? What do you hope to get out of it if you do date?
But then you think about the fact that some are in the process of divorce, but it just isn't legal yet. In that case, it is gray. I would like to tell you I think it is ok to date because I think I will want to myself. I am a Christian woman and believe the scripture, but still feel like it is gray area for me personally. I am in a situation that I am standing, it is still new for me and have someone interested in dating that has been through this same situation over a year ago and whom I have known for over 20 years. He is now divorced after standing throughout that period of time. I have put him off based on my emotional state, but it certainly has crossed my mind as to what is 'right'. I don't think I would have considered dating until he came along. I will be interested in seeing how the discussion goes. I want to stand for my marriage. I really do! Today it seems hopeless and maybe I should just move on with dating.
Just my two scents!
-H
-
At first BD 3+ years ago I had a guy ask me out to dinner and I went and had a really good time. Nothing else happened (although I was wishing it would). He decided it wasn't a good idea as he was already somewhat involved with someone else. He wasn't married. Technically on paper I still was- until about 2 months later.
Now? After 2nd BD? I'd like to have someone to do things with who wasn't too serious. I'm finding I'm having pretty tough trust issues when it comes to men.
A date would be fine- I think-but I'm definitely not standing.
-
Here's my take. If you are truly standing because you are hoping to ultimately be reconciled with your spouse, how would dating help anything? It complicates things. It can get messy. If you are dating someone and your spouse wants to return, what do you do? Potentially break someone's heart?
It is a personal decision. For me, it doesn't make sense.
-
It is a personal decision. I've dated and had a boyfriend. Then again I'm not standing.
I guess if one is casual dating one is not breaking anyone's heart. Going for dinner or tea with someone is not the same as wanting to live with them or marry them.
Also, a MLC can last so, so many years, that a LBS can date/have a boyfriend/girlfriend and that relationship end before our MLCer is done.
Still, every case is a case.
-
I've pondered this once or twice and always come to the same conclusion. I don't want to date until I feel I've resolved my feelings towards my W. If I'm still in love with her and wish for a reconciliation is it fair to the 3rd party? Even if there's an agreement that it's not serious someone tends to develop deeper feelings and ends up hurt.
For me I've thought of it as a means to get over her. I just don't feel that's healthy.
-
I should tell you guys that I am not asking for myself. I know where I stand. My vow didnt include me being with someone else.
I had read someone elses post and I guess I was being a little judgmental. It was like I was pissed this person said they were standing but were out dating. I got the feeling they were doing it to "get back" at their MLCer. When in reality, the MLCer probably wouldnt notice.
I had just been thinking about it for a few days and want to know other peoples opinion.
Still Standing here!
-
I spent some time last fall looking for an outside relationship to provide a distraction for me from her crisis. That's what I think people do when they begin dating too soon. They're looking for someone else to distract them from the pain they're feeling. It's easy to get drawn to someone else in times of emotional turmoil. That's why the MLCer ends up in an affair. M
I didn't think you were considering it J. But if you do I suggest asking yourself why you really want to date.
-
I don't think I could date someone else while H is in his crisis. I would never feel it was right for me. I am married. I still feel married. I love my H and want him back even after four years of this carp. BUT my h didn't move out either. If he had I didn't know if I would feel different about it or not.
I has to be an individual decision. I didn't think there is a right or wrong about it. It's what you can live with.
-
From a friend I know that he started dating with a few months, but he was not standing. He still felt it was too soon, but he really enjoyed the distraction and he was honest to the first few girls he met.
Nowadays (post divorce) he has moved on and is looking for someone new.
As for myself, I have thought about it, not to get something serious, but for self-validation, knowing that I am still desirable, attractive and a good and beautiful person. I haven't acted on it, but considered it for awhile, mainly on advice from friends who have seen me fall apart through this early phase.
Also since I am not sure whether I will stand or not, I guess it is keeping the options open. I partly view it also as potentially a path to validate to myself that I wish to hold out for my wife by realising what it is that we have/had and what I would not have and need to build with anybody new.