Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Standing in Patience on March 20, 2013, 11:27:47 AM
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I am wondering if there is any discussion about regret? Regrets?
Before BD?
At BD?
After separation?
At divorce (if there is one)?
After divorce?
I regret that I have "harmed" you? Made you feel sad or angry?
I regret impacting the children?
How does blame and shame work with mlc?
There is a known researcher on "shame" as a subject that I will add here
for purposes of discussion later. I remember reading an article about her.
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Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0
So I had to go to the recess of my mind and try to remember where I heard about this subject.
I checked on YoutTube. So her name is Brene Brown. She talks about shame, vunerability, etc. Last I knew it had about 10,000 views. Now it is over 200,000.
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These are probably too little too late but I know of one who, on his death bed, told the first wife she was his one true love and that the biggest mistake of his life was marrying wife number 2--with wife 2 sitting right there.
I was also told by someone upon hearing my situation that even though he was happy with his current relationship, his first wife had been the biggest love of his life and not a day goes by that he doesn't think about her and the mistake he made in not treating her better. This was 40 years later. She had since remarried and then passed on so there was no hope of reconciliation. But at least it gives some evidence that they do eventually start thinking about those things, even if we don't see it.
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There is one on guilt and remorse: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2730.0
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My h shows no hint of regret, no hint of shame and blames me and the marriage for his feelings of unhappiness.
My MiL had a MLC in her late 30s. She felt really good about herself after a promotion at work and went out to seek excitement. Changed lifestyle started affair was away from family weekends and holidays. She basically abandoned her family for two years. She got to a point where she went to her H and said,"what are we doing? Can we stop this crazy lifestyle and get ourselves back on track?" he told her she was too late and that he had met someone else and she will be moving in! She says now that it was her biggest regret, she has stayed with her affair partner because she's tried to make the best of things. She regrets what it did to her kids and is racked with guilt at their behaviour now at midlife! Such a terrible mess.
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TT, the shame and regret come so much later. I know it's hard to think of this as "early days", but this whole process takes so much longer than we can even imagine.
But as to others feeling regret, one female friend on RL who did this to her family in her 30s did tell me that she regrets it every day, even though she has remarried and is generally happy. Her H divorced her quite soon, and remarried so there was no chance of reconciliation, but she says that she was completely misguided, was chasing something that only happened in the movies, that it was too hard on the children, and so on. She also says that her current H would also still be with his original family if he had known then what he knows now, so it sounds like they were both MLCers at some point. (I don't know her new H's story).
Another RL acquaintance, another woman, also now has expressed regret... it's something like 8 years now, and I believe she started thinking this way around 3 years ago, but I'm not exactly sure of the timeline. Again, her H has a new partner and even a new child, so no chance there, either.
In both cases it took lots of time and lots of replay antics.
My H had some kind of episode of clarity around 2.5 years in, when he said that he was sorry he had treated me so badly for so long, but from what I can tell that was the guilt overwhelming him, rather than remorse. He chose to run further; had another smaller crash when he again talked about feeling so guilty, but again ran further.
I keep thinking about that line from one of RCR's articles where it says that they have to run until they can't any more.
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I keep thinking about that line from one of RCR's articles where it says that they have to run until they can't any more.
Yes, sadly they are long distance runners rather than sprinters...
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My H has used the word regret in emails to me, but he places it within a context of getting the divorce done as quickly as possible, and moving on with separate lives.
There's no remorse because his actions are still so selfish. It seems he is trying to keep from burning the bridge with me entirely. He wants us to remain friends LOL.
Right now, he merely wants to avoid looking or feeling like the bad guy. He never mentions a word about someday in the future working things out with me. But it's bound to have crossed his mind. How could it not? He's always been a nostalgic, sentimental type. And when we were dating he "won" me back after a long break-up by writing to me out of the blue. At the time it shocked me since he could be a prideful, stubborn guy and so much had happened between us. I thought I would never hear from him again. But I was wrong believing he never did think about us.
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I think the regret and remorse comes much, much later. Even though a couple of years feels like an eternity, it's only the beginning....
My RL friend who reconciled with her H, who was away for 5 years, said that it was several years after he came home....
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Mine never left. Did the usual horrible junk. Coming out of it (I think) now a baby coaster. BUT has never expressed any remorse or any apology for putting me through all his monstering and his affair (claimed EA not PA but I don't believe it).
Yeah I know they do stuff that I suppose they are trying to show you they are sorry but I would actually like to hear it.
I apologized to him if I failed him in any way and took responsibility for any distance that I may have caused between us that led to our problems. From him? NADA
Do they ever get around to actually putting out those words?
Sally Wood
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This is a good topic. I gather that if there is no remorse, they aren't fully whole and returning with good intentions.
But I don't know. Maybe others more qualified can comment. My H returned once only for me to learn OW wasn't totally gone.
As lonely as it gets sometimes and as much as I'd like to have my H home, I don't want my H to return unless it's for real - and OW is long gone and a distant memory.
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I think most of them do come back with remorse but some don't express it in words. They show you by actions.
I don't know, a sincere apology is nice to hear but maybe the actions really mean more in the long run.
It's possible your H could say those words down the road. Maybe their just too hard to say right now.
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Hero - Since it is in baby coaster mode, I still get the cycles of nice and then cool. I do wonder if the EA (or PA?) is still around or if he is just still going through affair withdrawal. Bomb drop and revelation was September 2015 so it hasn't been that long and I know for a fact that contact continued at least through November or December. He kept buying her two year old son gifts. I saw pics on the computer that she had sent him with her son in front of a huge pile of toys. Yeah she was married too.
Thunder - I suppose he may get to saying he was sorry at some point. I thought that when I stepped up to the apology plate that he would also - it was an opportunity for him.
Just wondered if any of the posters had MLCer returns that expressed remorse.
Sally
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Mine expressed remorse, once. He had gone to Mexico to see a friend's child married. I was working and could not go. He came back with amethysts,in silver indicated he was sorry for all he put me through and gave me the jewellery with tears in his eyes.
That's all that's been said. The rest he shows, he's unfailingly kind and considerate.
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So called "normal" affairs have remorseful spouses afterward. In MLC, this isn't the norm. I've been around here since 2012, and the reconciled marriages I know of didn't start with a lot of expressions of sorrow or willingness to work through anything. Most had an MLCer with nowhere else to turn, or just a gradual reintroduction to their old lives. I'm one who believes there is a chemical imbalance behind the drastic and sudden change, so I don't believe they would suddenly be capable of deeper emotional connection or empathy without first addressing that. During what were the closest thing to "lucidity" my former spouse had after his affair was revealed, he felt sorry that he'd caused pain, but not sorry that he'd done it. Not very attractive! But again, time showed he was not fully cooked, either.
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So called "normal" affairs have remorseful spouses afterward. In MLC, this isn't the norm. I've been around here since 2012, and the reconciled marriages I know of didn't start with a lot of expressions of sorrow or willingness to work through anything. Most had an MLCer with nowhere else to turn, or just a gradual reintroduction to their old lives. I'm one who believes there is a chemical imbalance behind the drastic and sudden change, so I don't believe they would suddenly be capable of deeper emotional connection or empathy without first addressing that. During what were the closest thing to "lucidity" my former spouse had after his affair was revealed, he felt sorry that he'd caused pain, but not sorry that he'd done it. Not very attractive! But again, time showed he was not fully cooked, either.
Mine was once "sorry" to have put me through it. That was about a year ago. He's still cooking.
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I think sorry and true remorse are different things. My STBX apologizes for hurting me on an almost monthly basis. Always the same wording too "For what it's worth, I'm sorry I hurt you."
I do believe he is sorry for causing me hurt. However as he is deep in MLC, he cannot see the depth of the damage he caused nor do anything to show my by his actions that he is remorseful. Remorse to me means trying to right the wrong, in his case, ending it with OW and fixing himself. That is way too overwhelming for him in his present state.
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I think sorry and true remorse are different things. My STBX apologizes for hurting me on an almost monthly basis. Always the same wording too "For what it's worth, I'm sorry I hurt you."
I do believe he is sorry for causing me hurt. However as he is deep in MLC, he cannot see the depth of the damage he caused nor do anything to show my by his actions that he is remorseful. Remorse to me means trying to right the wrong, in his case, ending it with OW and fixing himself. That is way too overwhelming for him in his present state.
YES YES YES! I could have written this. My H has said numerous times "For what it's worth, I'm sorry for hurting you." However, I don't believe he's at all sorry for his actions, and he's become so narcissistic I truly think he's only sorry for hurting me because it makes him look bad and his image is #1. :o There isn't an OW that I am aware of (YET), but alienators in other forms (see my thread).
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Mine EX H hasn't show anything. He's nicer now, but I don't think that he believes that he's done anything wrong. I believe that he's living with the AD. He still hasn't told my younger 2 girls. Not sure why. He and she have posted all of their lives together on FB. I don't think that the EX is aware of any of the damage that he's caused.
The girls go see him next month. Only time will tell if he will be remorseful for what he's done. The closest I've seen, was in the beginning when he said that he wasn't a bad guy. That's about it. He's still in EA and definitely living in Replay. I think that the AD is living a permanent MLC. She doesn't seem to have much going for her, and I think that she's definitely prolonging this with the damsel in distress act. So, I'm pretty sure that she keeps him believing that he's done nothing wrong, and that she's the right one for him.
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So called "normal" affairs have remorseful spouses afterward. In MLC, this isn't the norm. I've been around here since 2012, and the reconciled marriages I know of didn't start with a lot of expressions of sorrow or willingness to work through anything. Most had an MLCer with nowhere else to turn, or just a gradual reintroduction to their old lives. I'm one who believes there is a chemical imbalance behind the drastic and sudden change, so I don't believe they would suddenly be capable of deeper emotional connection or empathy without first addressing that. During what were the closest thing to "lucidity" my former spouse had after his affair was revealed, he felt sorry that he'd caused pain, but not sorry that he'd done it. Not very attractive! But again, time showed he was not fully cooked, either.
Mine was once "sorry" to have put me through it. That was about a year ago. He's still cooking.
Mine wrote to me just before he moved 1000 miles to live near OW: "I'm sorry, Nassau. You don't believe me. You never will, but I am."
As if the circumstances are just beyond his control.
When he told me he was moving he also said, "I know I handled everything wrong."
I've seen no indication that he really sees or cares how much damage he's caused me. I don't want to hear "sorry." I'd like to see some accountability, but there has been none and may never be.
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Great topic,
It was only after a year, when I asked him, do you know what you've done to me. He said, yes, I do and live with it everyday. I got the "sorry" but, his actions show me. I would have loved for him to fall down on his knees and beg my forgiveness. Just not who he is. We did get to the point, I could ask questions. In the beginning seemed important. I realized though, living through it over and over again wasn't helping me. I think that some men look at an apology as weak. Just my thought.
FH
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Finding Hope
Good thought. Considering how important it is to the MLCer to be in control and be right and hero to their EA or PA, how can they walk that back and admit they were wrong? I think that's very much a guy thing.
Sally Wood
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Sally Wood, I've merged your thread on one with the same/similar subject. I have also changed the title a little, so that it fits both threads.
I'm sorry is not the same as remorse or regret. I heard I'm sorry at lot in the beginning. Mr J also told more than once that he knew what he had one (at the time he had done far less than in subsequent years) was wrong. It merely means that, they are sorry and/or know it is wrong. But they are not changing their actions/ways.
Remorse does not have to come with words. It can come with actions.
They know they are wrong. Some of them may not say so, but they know.
While in Escape & Avoid MLCers aren't capable of showing true remorse. And even after, it may take them a while. And it may come with actions/the way they behave, rather than with words.
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Anjae,
You are so right, an apology is not the same as regret. I know he regrets what he's done. But the I'm sorry got caught in his throat. I read the 5 languages of Love. Very interesting how some show love. My guy is the kind that thinks doing the laundry is showing his love. Took a long time for me to get it.
I'm very huggy-kissy, he on the hand thinks folding my underwear and putting it away is how he shows love ??? ;D This is where compromise comes in. He tries harder to be affectionate and I don't say anything when he doesn't give me as much as I would like. I just go to my underwear drawer and look at my neatly folded underwear 8) ::)
He is doing things with me more. We're actually going white water rafting next week, that's really, really big. So, I look at that as my hugs.
FH
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Mine says "I'm sorry" ALL THE TIME! But of course, he does not change his actions. I would much rather see the actions than hear the words, but I am still in the very beginning stages of all this. I actually wish he would stop saying I'm sorry b/c it sounds so canned at this point and I know he has no regrets at this point....other than getting married to me I suspect. ;)
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Keepittogether,
I got sorry all the time in the beginning. It was only when we reached the part where we could talk about it and I could ask questions that I saw the remorse. And when he told me he lives everyday with the knowledge of the pain and damage he's done that I knew he had remorse. He once told me he regretted the whole time.
At the time I asked regretted that you did it or that you got caught. He said that I did it
FH
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FH--good to know. There is definitely no talking for us at this point, especially while he's out doing whatever it is he's doing. Patience. Patience. Patience. And wine. ;D
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Keep, you can get all the regrets in the world, but until they change behavior, regrets are meaningless.
I read, somewhere (probably here) that regret is about I and remorse is about you. I think that's really important to understand. Regret is selfish. Remorse is not.
I also got tons of regrets. All about him and his feelings. One of the last things STBX said to me the day he lest was, "I've got to stop tortuting my wife". Notice how it was all about him and had very little to do with me? He couldn't even use a pronoun...I was an abstract "wife".
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Mirroring most everyone else's comments...Although its still WAY too early in the process for me, the closest thing I got post-D was "Im sorry I hurt you."
Its terrible to analyze a simple statement and pick it apart, but this is my take away from that small sentance:
"I feel bad because of the guilt I feel for hurting you, but not enough to do anything about it."
-T
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My H apologized for upsetting me during a conversation that we had last week. Said he was sorry he made me cry and didn't mean to. Said he feels foggy and lost and gets angry easily these days. My BD was 6 months ago today.
Hugs to you!
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Hi I'm around 1 year from BD. My H doesn't normally apologize for anything. He just usually makes things right. That was pre MLC. I have no idea if this journey will make him into the type of person that apologizes or not yet I would much prefer remorse. I would question my H in my mind if her did ever come out and say I'm sorry anyway. Hollow words.
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I am only 1 year in from BD. My W has shown nor remorse or regret and I know that she will not for sometime, if at all. Not one single, "I'm sorry" about anything. All your fault Watcher. The OM is a product of this bad marriage, and that is a product of you, Watcher. I fled because you had anxiety, Watcher. I have debt now because your anxiety forced me to flee, Watcher. Etc, etc, etc...
No acknowledgment of her behavior at all. I agree, it would be meaningless to hear. She has to show it through actions.
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These stories are interchangeable. I have heard the same: regret for "how it happened." Then basically amoral. My husband has cried a few times, but from self pity. Not out of compassion for others.
I'm surprised more of these MLCers do not commit suicide when they come out of it. I'm not sure if I could live with myself if I abandoned our son the way my husband has.
My dad's good friend may or may not have had MLC but he left his wife for another woman. They are married now. He told me that not a day goes by that he doesn't regret it. This was 20 years ago and superficially you would think he has a very sweet romance with this woman. He told me that he knows he want there for his children and that he and his first wife had a happy marriage.
My parents have some friends where the wife had a MLC that likely included a love child she wouldn't admit wasn't the husbands. She married the likely true father -- only to divorce him decades later and remarry the first husband. Rather than be happy the children were furious, likely for all the unnecessary suffering they endured in the first place.
I also think MLC involves a chemical imbalance or damage to specific region to the brain. How else to explain this almost identical behavior we see here?
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First BD for me was Jan. 2015 though he stayed at home, the second was Jan. 2016 almost to the day, he moved out while I was still asleep as he was leaving for work. No word, no note.. nothing. In I think Feb/Mar there were a few I am sorry, I know I am hurting everyone I don't know why I did xyz. But I don't feel there was any remorse or regret in any of it. He obviously didn't change his behavior and since has gone further into the tunnel.
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Finding Hope,
I think Mr J and I had it easy. We are both the sort who does things to show love, but we were also good with huggy-kissy. The huggy-kissy was a display of affection, the doing things of love.
We need both, and we had it. But at least I will fell overwhelmed if the huggy-kissy is too much.
In a non relationship context, I do not use huggy-kissy with anyone other than maybe with a child. I will do things.
But with this MLC thing, huggy-kissy from Mr J is not going to do it at all. I think he knows it, and I doubt he would try huggy-kissy instead of doing things/showing with actions. The huggy-kissy can only come after.
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The ex admitted to a friend of his he made a mistake. I found that out a few months ago....that's about it.
With me it was just "big do over"..when I returned after the divorce...put your ring back on. Let's forget it even happened.
Sorry buddy I don't live in your fantasy land.
He did say he made a lot of mistakes with me..maybe he was referring to his complete disregard in most cases. Whatever it was it's a little too little way too late. Nothing he could ever say or do could change anything.
I deserve better.