Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: justasking on September 03, 2010, 07:33:26 AM
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Hello All
Everyone talks about rock bottom when the WAS is depressed. I understand they reach this when they have nothing else to lose and everything has failed.
When does it occur? Does it occur in replay, depression or withdrawal. If in replay is it after the awakening when they start to realise what they have lost?We know that depression fluctuates throughout the journey and at times it is more intense.
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Great queston! Ask myself this one a lot. I would imagine, based on what I've read and one of the charts contained in RCR article that rock bottom is liminality. The awakening would just cause them to end replay behaviors but the true work and reality is to be found in liminality when they must face what they've done. THis is just my interpretation. I don't have any experience with the depression stage of liminality. Although I've seen depression throughout and feel I've seen my H approach liminality and come close and then grasp onto replay again. Interested what others will say.
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If I were to guess what rock bottom was for my H, it was during depression and he seemed to hit more than once over a period of about three or four months or so. He could barely put one foot in front of the other, seemed so totally unmotivated by much, looked terrible, etc. It seemed to coincide with when I saw much of the replay behavior diminish. But who really knows - I can only go one what I observed outwardly and the little bit he shared - maybe his true inward rock bottom is/was a different time.
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I remember a line from one of RCR's articles -- something to the effect of :
"Rock bottom isn't nice -- who would want to go there? They may come close and then claw their way back up again, or even bounce on it several times". That's seriously paraphrased, but it's the idea.
I've watched my H bounce, I think; he hit what I thought was rock bottom about 6 months in; I saw another big bounce 18 months in, then another 2 1/5 years in.... a bit of one at just under 3 years in, but that time I actually saw him bash it back. Fight it.
Sorry I don't have a good description to give; I think "real" rock bottom is when they see what they think, kind of like at the beginning of the crisis if that makes any sense, that "I have GOT to change this, or I'll lose everything".
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My guess is that the depression stage is a reaction to hitting rock bottom, which occurs at the end of replay.
What outwardly we see in depression stage looks like rock bottom but I believe it is the MLC'ers way of navigating out of the tunnel and up and out of the rock bottom. I must say that withdrawal is not exactly a pleasant stage either. FWIW.
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So on that basis, has mine hit it several times? Does that mean that he has made decisions, even if I don't like them?
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So on that basis, has mine hit it several times? Does that mean that he has made decisions, even if I don't like them?
NO T&L you do not know the decisions that he has made and will not until he breaks withdrawal.
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T&L, has he stopped replay behaviours? Has he found a style of life he can live with, or is he still in denial?
If he is still in replay, deluding himself, or trying to find better solutions, he hasn't made any final decisions.
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Has he found a style of life he can live with? Sometimes I think he has, then not. He has a wonderful flat, a job he says he loves, and apparently a woman.
But then I know he's still not completely happy, as he's said that "it would all be so much easier if he thought I had given up on him", and that he 'wants me to move on'.
He does feel an obligation to provide for us, which he does, but it is also true that he can't bear to be thought of as the bad guy.
He himself has said that the way things are is what has happened, rather than it having been a decision, meaning the children not coming for weekends at his any more.
I don't know if he is deluding himself, but I guess I sort of think that he is trying to find better solutions, or if not that, then thinking that "it will be better when _______" and fill in the blank depending on the topic: better when x happens at work; better when his mother's house gets sold and there will be money for her care home (and he's planning on there being some left afterwards....); better when I "move on', better when something else.
But this is gettting off the topic of rock bottom.....
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Just a wild guess... but based on some alcoholics, and or drug addicts which I have spoken to, even the ones that were in and out of rehab, for them their description of hitting rock bottom is more like when they say to themselves "what am I doing to myself?", or "what have I done to myself?", "I've got to do something about this addiction!". (sort of like "realization"). I'm not sure if this is applicable to MLCers... could be close though. Something as simple as trying to quit smoking, sometimes not until they get sick is when a smoker will start saying the same things.
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eCe711
That is very interesting regarding drug addicts and alcoholics as I have heard councillors refer rock bottom for MLC along the same lines. In this case it would be more a thought rather than a situation where there is no money, no hope etc.
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T&L - my guess is maybe your H has come close or hit rock bottom and is fighting it and not willing/ready to make the changes, thus continuing the behaviors and the MLC. Just a wild guess.
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If I may add something regarding Rock Bottom... and this is not to discourage anyone here, but any events that occurs in their life, no matter how bad it is... such as probably death can even get them to ROCK BOTTOM. They will get there when they get there. It is how well grounded they were that would take them to ROCK BOTTOM. On the other hand it could be as simple as hearing a song on the radio, or attending a family function that will make them hit ROCK BOTTOM.
So for us LBS we really have to just let go... as they said before "ACTIONS" not "WORDS". You will notice it... They have to catch up with us.
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Buggy has got it. But I found OldPilot's answer interesting.
My guess is that the depression stage is a reaction to hitting rock bottom, which occurs at the end of replay.
What outwardly we see in depression stage looks like rock bottom but I believe it is the MLC'ers way of navigating out of the tunnel and up and out of the rock bottom.
And what ECE711 said may help shed some light on that.
based on some alcoholics, and or drug addicts which I have spoken to, even the ones that were in and out of rehab, for them their description of hitting rock bottom is more like when they say to themselves "what am I doing to myself?", or "what have I done to myself?", "I've got to do something about this addiction!". (sort of like "realization").
There will come a time when your MLCer becomes aware of what he or she is doing and/or has done.
- They are bankrupt and expecting a child with the alienator,
- Their kids hate them and their spouse...hate, loves, begs and pleads...depends on the spouse.
- Their parents are disgusted and ashamed
- Their long-time friends no longer in contact and probably embarrassed.
- They lost their job and then the next two jobs that replaced the original.
- They have no home, maybe a one-room flat, maybe someone's couch.
- Without a Standing spouse their may be someone new living their life with their LBS and raising their children.
- Their liver is shot
- The alienator is stalking them, calling incessantly, threatening suicide, exposure...
That is not rock bottom; it is only the initial realization of what they have done and become. They hit rock bottom as that realization washes through them, penetrating every fiber of their being. They feel the consequences as well as the pain they brought others and they think they have caused too much damage.
That is a common phrase I've caused to much damage and thus is becomes dilute with overuse, but at Rock Bottom just before Rock Bottom they believe it. Rock Bottom is where they make the decision to change. They've tried before, but they were banking on the excuse of having tried--trying presupposes failure--to allow them to fail. Now they are not going to try but are going to do. They don't know what they will do; they don't know what options are open to them--spouse, kids, friends... But they are going to act within their available options to make things better because they can stay at the bottom or go up, there is no other palce to go...though don't tell them, but it is possible to drill deeper. At Rock Bottom they don't know what to do and thus there is a stagnant period where they are stuck in their hopelessness. But at the same time they desperately want a solution. They are the molted crab without a new shell.
I went through my manuscript to find my references to Rock Bottom and then googled my site since the manuscript doesn't give web page addresses.
Here are the pages that reference Rock Bottom
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html)
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html)
TrustAndLove's paraphrase came from this one:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_doubt-and-confusion.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_doubt-and-confusion.html)
That article is directly followed by another in the series referencing Rock Bottom:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_limbo.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_limbo.html)
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As a general rule the MLC'er hits bottom during the TRUE Depression stage....I saw my husband do this ONCE; he was within the TRUE Depression stage, sometime during the stage itself; it wasn't early in, he'd been in there for some time before I saw him do this.
He didn't take a bath for around three days, and his hair was sticking up in every direction, and he'd neglected shaving AND brushing his teeth..quite unusual for him, as he is such a stickler for physical appearance.....what seemed to complicate matters was the fact that my son and I were BOTH very sick, and he was running back and forth between us, trying to take care of us...and this was something I'd NEVER seen out of him before.
He looked a little crazy, and on the verge of tears...and he was shaky on his feet. My throat was SO sore, I could barely speak, but asked him if he was all right, and he said "No, but I will be. Can I get you something else to drink?"
My fever and son's fever ran high, then broke...he was putting cold washcloths on us both and giving us tylenol to try and break the fever.
Some would say us being sick was what drove him crazy...but that really wasn't it..just before me and son succumbed to being sick, I was already seeing the signs of him beginning to bottom out...he was running from it...but when we got sick, it caught up with him, and I think it was supposed to...we distracted him, and allowed it to catch up with him....otherwise, he would have fought it off and probably been stuck that way.
He stayed bottomed out for those three days, and slowly but surely began to climb out of the pit after the third day...I saw pure relief on his face, and he started the signs of thinking deeply...still fighting the tears that threatened to fall...and there was nothing I could do to help him.
I wish I knew more of what he was seeing during that time, but it was not for me to see...and I don't remember what I saw when it happened to me....some things I remember, some I don't, and this is one of those times I don't remember about myself.
What I do know comes from experience:
All Replay behaviors are totally behind them, they have moved forward into Depression... and they are in the throes of very deep depression when they bottom out, emotionally.
The physical signs are neglect of their personal hygiene, tears that threaten to fall, or do fall...they are shaky on their feet.....you may hear them beating themselves to pieces over how they are...but, remember, they've been shown a small part of the damage they've done...and that is really hard on them.
This IS after, all, the deepest pit in MLC...and it's really hard on them...but if they don't bottom out, seeing themselves for what they really are, they can get stuck here between Replay and Depression...cycling backwards into Replay for a time, then cycle back into Depression.
I haven't seen the latter much..but TAL's husband may be in that area...and honestly, I'm not sure what you do when they cycle like that.....Boundaries wouldn't exactly work because even if you could force them back out of Replay...they may cycle right back into this stage if they can't face themselves in Depression, if that makes sense.
Then, again, when one thing doesn't work, try another...do something different in order to maybe bring them forward within the tunnel. Don't give up, keep trying until something breaks or they leave permanently ON THEIR OWN WITH NO HELP FROM YOU.
Yet, they MUST face themselves, in order to move forward...if my husband hadn't been able to face himself during that time...he could NOT have moved forward into Withdrawal....now, what made him bounce backwards into Withdrawal was his FINAL FEARS that he was unable to face..so he bounced backwards, in effect, getting STUCK in that stage, because he did NOT want to face his issues, which were contained within his final fears....so, I was called upon to confront him...and even then, I took a chance on losing him, by the boundaries I set upon his behavior.
On what exactly that you do to break this type of cycle, I would have to pray for an answer, as I don't have one....and I know, that's not like me NOT to have one..but I've never seen this but a couple of times...and the person going through was STILL cycling back and forth when I dropped out of circulation.
This is different than cycling between OW and LBS....OW Withdrawal, if there's been an affair has also been navigated through....and when the MLC'er reaches Depression, everything should be finished in regards to Replay...but the door to Replay may NOT be locked...remember coming through or NOT coming depends upon the MLC'er..and that is what makes this crisis so hard to understand and survive.
Hopefully SOME of this will help. :)
Like I said, I NEVER said I had ALL the answers...but I will see what the Lord gives me on this...or if He gives some of you answers for what I cannot answer, please let ME know. :)
RCR, I see your answer, and it is a very good one. :)
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On what exactly that you do to break this type of cycle, I would have to pray for an answer, as I don't have one....and I know, that's not like me NOT to have one.
RCR, if you do pray, and do come up with something, I'd love to hear it.....
I've already figured out that boundaries have no place here; I'm trying to think of what I could do that is different.... so not doing anything particular right now.....
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http://www.articlesbase.com/religion-articles/hitting-rock-bottom-147662.html
The above is what i have been reading to research Rock bottom. I am not sure if I am supposed to post links to other sites. (If not sorry RCR)
I have found them useful, along with RCR information on Liminality.
Hope they are useful.
HUGS
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uote
On what exactly that you do to break this type of cycle, I would have to pray for an answer, as I don't have one....and I know, that's not like me NOT to have one.
RCR, if you do pray, and do come up with something, I'd love to hear it.....
I meant HB, of course, as my quote was from her post, rather than RCR.... sorry!
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I just wanted to add that it took awhile even after I thought my H had rock bottom before he did much to try to make any positive changes. Honestly, for awhile I don't think he had the energy. He was very depressed. And now, almost eight months later, his positive changes are still slow, slow, slow but they are definitely there. MLC just takes a long, long time.
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To RCR and HB, what incredible posts and great information. The drug addict analogy also comes into play. I am a newbie in all of this, but I have tried to read as many stories as well as posts to look at commonalities. If I were to approach this from a quantitative approach, I would code key phrases and see how often they occur throughout the different posts. (I am not doing that, I don't have the time nor the permission to do so).
If I have been reading the post correctly, most of our MLCers see their actions as beyond their control. (Love at first sight, my soul mate, etc...) They make decisions and actions based on reactions towards others (I have to leave because you did this, or the environment is not right). They use emotion and feelings to validate their actions.
I think that rock bottom occurs when they realize that everything is a mess and it was within their control to have prevented it. HB is right, we can't save them. They must save themselves. Otherwise, the responsibility and acceptance of consequences never occurs and we, the LBS bails them out once again.
This is just my observations from reading your posts. I have little experience with this since my w is still in replay.
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so... what if the MLCer believed his only option to leave was to move in with OW and OW was not even in the picture a couple of days prior to bomb drop (this is all confirmed and factual)... H believed that the only way he could afford to leave was to find a "friend" that was willing to let him move in w/out needing to contribute one cent himself so that he could ocntinue to pat himself on the back for supporting his family...... IF this were the scenario then how would the LBS know when he has hit bottom? Replay is suppose to be over and that means no OW in the picture ... how would you know if he had detatched from OW and was now treating OW like a room mate.. how would LBS know if H asks to return home that H is done with replay and not just cycling or goig to bounce back if h is still living in OW home as he feels that is the only option other than not be able to give LBS money to pay bills and such for her and kids.... my MLCer went to an older woman with money she was willing to and has spent freely on him... not the typical older MLCer and younger OW scenario where he gets his own place or moves into her place and started contributing there financially........... homeless and on the street is a real rock bottom but I don't want to force him there if he has already hit bottom and is trying to end replay before that.. doing so may in his mind, force him to go back to replay????
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so... what if the MLCer believed his only option to leave was to move in with OW and OW was not even in the picture a couple of days prior to bomb drop (this is all confirmed and factual)... H believed that the only way he could afford to leave was to find a "friend" that was willing to let him move in w/out needing to contribute one cent himself so that he could ocntinue to pat himself on the back for supporting his family...... IF this were the scenario then how would the LBS know when he has hit bottom? Replay is suppose to be over and that means no OW in the picture ... how would you know if he had detatched from OW and was now treating OW like a room mate..
If OW is still a roommate, he's most likely still in replay. (And I would say that you have no way of knowing for sure that they are "just" roommates at this point...)
how would LBS know if H asks to return home that H is done with replay and not just cycling or goig to bounce back if h is still living in OW home as he feels that is the only option other than not be able to give LBS money to pay bills and such for her and kids....
If he's still figuring out how to run away from his life, then he hasn't hit rock bottom yet.
my MLCer went to an older woman with money she was willing to and has spent freely on him... not the typical older MLCer and younger OW scenario where he gets his own place or moves into her place and started contributing there financially...........
The younger woman is an MLC sterotype but not always the truth. There's another woman on here whose husband is involved with a much older woman.
homeless and on the street is a real rock bottom but I don't want to force him there if he has already hit bottom and is trying to end replay before that.. doing so may in his mind, force him to go back to replay????
You can't "force" him into, or out of, replay; for better or for worse, you are along for the ride. About the only thing you can do to help him hit bottom faster is to remove yourself from the temptation of trying to fix him or help him, and focus on yourself.
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yeah.. I know there is nothing that i can do to fix any of it.. it's a sit back and watch him crash and burn.... but I also don't want to force him to stay in replay if he want out of replay or is out of replay and is trying to get to lim. / dep. by making him think there is no where else to go but to stay in replay and living with ow.. don't get me wrong, ow things he is there because he loves her and they have a real relationship HAHAHAHAHA... yeah, she's bpd
but, I don't want to let him get a bunch of false starts either and drag me and the kids back onto the rollercoaster that we are decidedly off of right now
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it's a sit back and watch him crash and burn.... but I also don't want to force him to stay in replay if he want out of replay or is out of replay and is trying to get to lim. / dep. by making him think there is no where else to go but to stay in replay and living with ow..
But that's the trick -- just as you can't force him out of replay, you can't force him to stay in replay. He will leave when he is ready to leave.
I get it; I'm in the same place. I want my wife to get through this so she can have a chance to come back to me. But as much as I hate all of this, I can't do anything to help it.
If you're worried about him having nowhere to go, just make sure you have boundaries set in case he wants to return.
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I was just going back and reading some of the older threads and was wondering. In one of RCR articles it says , if I remember correctly that OW can last through liminal deppression, but the relationship would change.
But then I read that OW has to be out of the picture and all replay is totaly gone.
Just making sure I understand .
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RCR does say that the OW can stay until the end of withdrawal but has to be gone before acceptance.
As they change in depression and withdrawal the OW will notice changes as the MLCer reassesses his life and where he wants to go. They try and pull away from the OW and she will use all her manipulative will power to hang on to him. Even threats are used. This increases the pressure on the MLCer and his W looks increasingly the better option as she is strong, independent and causes him no grief.
The OW will feel that her time is slipping away. The MLCer may even change in his attitude to her i.e distant, angry and depressed.
It is at this time that the LBS must watch and wait. As the MLC er moves through withdrawal he will look for solid ground, to see whether the door is truly open for him and reach out for his spouse. At this time she is a guiding light as the MLC er is still making major decisions about his future.
There is still work to be done as he enters acceptance but the LBS will finally know what future the MLCer is looking for and OW disappears if she has hung on this long.
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Not every situation is the same.
In most cases, the OP is a symptom of the Replay behavior, and that relationship will end when they start to transition.
But it is possible that someone can emerge from the tunnel and choose to remain with the OP.
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Stillstanding is right each situation is different.
If the MLCer decides to dump the OW/OM it is one of the hardest things they will do on their journey at whatever stage it comes in.
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Thank you SS and JA,
I understand now. You have been a great help.
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RCR does say that the OW can stay until the end of withdrawal but has to be gone before acceptance.
I would respectfully have to agree to disagree with this assessment based on what I've seen.
It takes every bit of strength a MLC'er has to navigate through the Depression and Withdrawal stages. OW/OM should be gone by then, as they should have been dumped when the MLC'er goes through the awakening process that comes toward the end of the Replay stage.
It seems to me that if OW/OM is still present; they would NOT have the strength to move forward, and would stay where they are...as OW/OM is a symptom of their issues, and must be worked through BEFORE they can move any farther forward.
The Awakening mini stage is a time where they begin to move forward; and realize they must do something or all is lost; so the affair is generally the first to go, then the Replay behaviors begin to cease, as they are moving toward and through the OW/OM Withdrawal process.
I saw this with my own two eyes, as my husband moved through these processes.
After OW/OM Withdrawal, they can literally fall down into the Depression Stage where, eventually, they DO bottom out, hitting hard and finding themselves with no other way to go but UP.
It can be ALSO during this time where they can commit suicide, because they think they can never fix the damage..they do see some of the damage they've done during this stage; MORE during the Withdrawal Stage..and ALL is seen during Acceptance.
I do realize not every MLC comes out the same way; but I also know what I've seen in quite a few cases over the years. Now, there ARE seeds of each stage within the stages; and not to confuse you more....each of the six stages appear in each individual stage, mainly as small seeds. These are needed to propel the MLC through each one.
I won't say that marrying OW/OM prevents them from moving forward IF they go on and marry them. Not long ago, I remember my husband's friend(who'd gone on and married his OW) saying that he was beginning to make some better decisions in his life. Things were taking a turn for the better with himself. But, they were a LONG time coming, as he's been married to his OW for nearly 10 years or so.
Yet, I still see evidences of Replay within him; his clothing hasn't changed, and she dresses like a kid, too.
The comment was more directed at me, than my husband, as his friend remembered me talking to him so long ago; go figure on that. I understood what he was talking about, my husband did not, and asked me about it....said it was strange. I told his friend that was really good, keep going, he'd make it through.....I don't foresee him coming through for a long time, yet, but I couldn't tell him that.
I explained to my husband later, that his friend was going through his MLC...better termed as Middle Aged Crazies....my husband said he was glad he'd not done that, LOL!!!!
Like I said, my husband has forgotten ALL he went through, and I had to laugh, because I know better. :)
My point of this story is, it seems to take the ones who have OWs/OMs and end up marrying them, a LOT longer to come through, than they might have, otherwise...and that's probably true.
On the OTHER hand, and this is based on something I was writing on another board tonight; IF the MLC'er comes through, having done NO kind of damage; such as having an affair, etc., and decides NOT to continue with the marriage, that is between them and God on that matter.
I had remembered being faced with the decision when it was my turn within the crucible...and I remember that clearly; I had to decide at that point whether I wanted to continue with the marriage or turn away from it. After weighing the Pros and Cons, I decided to continue with what I had, and stay married.
I could have walked away at ANY time, but made a choice NOT to. This was an individual choice; and my husband had NOTHING to do with it.
It was NOT a "right or wrong" choice, it just was....I had to make it before I moved forward within the tunnel....and it took me awhile, as I struggled with a reality that I'd seen before; questioning myself on the wisdom of that decision.
I wasn't doing anything wrong; this was a natural part of the tunnel, and I actually 'hid' from the question for as long as I possibly could..for what reason, I still don't know.
Maybe I was afraid that I was letting myself in for more grief, who knew? But, in the end, I decided in favor of the marriage, and my husband never knew of the struggle I encountered making that decision.
The point here is this: if someone decides they don't want to be married any more as they come to a point of decision, that is their decision; nothing anyone can do to stop it...it is up to that individual. God will deal as He sees fit with that person, if it is a wrong decision to make.
We can influence someone, but cannot make them decide in favor of the marriage if they truly don't want to continue.
Sorry, I hijacked.....again. :)
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HB
Is it possible that although not physically gone the OW/OM is emotionally gone and the relationship changes as the MLCer progresses along the tunnel by them distancing and detaching themselves at the end of replay?
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Is it possible that although not physically gone the OW/OM is emotionally gone and the relationship changes as the MLCer progresses along the tunnel by them distancing and detaching themselves at the end of replay?
The answer is yes, it can happen that way and in that fashion. What you're asking is can the OW/OM break it off, using this procedure, just as well as the MLC'er can by doing the SAME thing...it has been known to happen that way; bringing on the awakening process within the MLC'er, as well as literally forcing the MLC'er into the OW/OM Withdrawal process.
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Something else I must say; so bear with me, here.
There was an answer I was praying for, in regards to the timing of when the MLC'er may decide their lives must go a different direction, and I was surprised by the answer I got, but it made a great deal of sense to me.
The Lord showed me at least three points in the tunnel where the MLC'er can decide that their lives go another direction.
The first point is just as the "awakening" occurs; the OW/OM is still within the picture; and the MLC'er CAN decide to just go on with them, as they "love" them; and it seems to be much easier to keep what they have currently, than to come back.
OR they can go on and dump them, and walk away from the LBS; this is a decision they can make.
The second point, is during Depression, as part of the damage is shown; they can decide at any time to just walk away and not come back....they may feel the damage cannot be fixed, no matter what they do; evidence of depression within.
The third point is during Withdrawal, when MORE of the damage done is shown. They are hit harder than they were during Depression; they may decide to cut their losses, and simply walk away.
Easier to run away than to face all they've done, and to face the one they've done it to, is too much. But it does NOT mean they won't come on through...it simply means they may take longer to process through. In all three points, the love the MLC'er once had for the LBS is most likely gone or buried too deep to resurrect.
In each case the LBS may or may NOT be told....this is an individual decision, and regardless of how much the LBS would feel entitled to know; they may NOT get a chance to influence the MLC'er to change their minds.
I mean, it may go as far as the MLC'er telling the LBS to leave them alone, they are done with them, and they would actually MEAN what they were saying...and it can come at any of these three points, BEFORE the marriage is recommitted to.
Now, the fact that some commit adultery doesn't make what they may end up doing right, and the MLC'er will STILL suffer consequences for their actions toward their marriage; but it is what it is.
That is why the LBS must accept ALL possibilities of how this may come out, as what I saw CAN happen this way.
Tell you something else; I was reminded of when my husband said he'd thought THREE times of leaving, but the third time he'd had to look ahead and see what life would be like without me, and he couldn't stand the thought.
OK; the Lord showed me these three points..the exact places where my HUSBAND stood as he faced this decision three times. I asked Him if there was a variation; He said not by much.
As my husband faced his awakening, and faced that crossroad the first time, he realized that he didn't love the OW, he loved ME; but was unsure what he could do about the damage that had occurred, although intellectually, he knew, the emotional hit hadn't come, just yet. Now, the Lord had instructed me to lay off him during that time, and I didn't; because of my disobedience, I ALMOST caused his walk away that first time, and didn't even know it until now.
If it had not been for the Lord; my husband would have walked away that first time he faced that decision to stay or go.
The second time came while within the stage of Depression, as he bottomed out, or hit rock bottom..the damage he was shown at that time seemed too great to overcome; and he thought about it again, but didn't do it...it was too scary to see beyond the thought.
The third time was his second time in the stage of Withdrawal after I laid my boundaries and triggered his tantrum,; he was angry with me because I wasn't doing what he wanted me to do;(which was throw him out, so he could blame me) and he thought of walking away and never coming back, but that third time showed him a life without me...and it was clearly the life he did NOT want....love for me was still there, uncovering within himself, and stronger than he imagined. He couldn't stand the thought.
He chose to still stay married at that time, but it was some time before I knew his decision; as his fear kept him quiet for quite awhile before he broke Withdrawal.
I'd known RCR was correct in what she was saying about people deciding on a different direction for their lives while within the tunnel, but I was unsure about when it would occur...so, I asked the Lord to show me.
The MLC'er still has to face consequences for their actions/adultery/treatment of the LBS, but they can decide on a different direction while within the tunnel. IF they have not committed adultery; and simply divorce the LBS and go on, or even walk away; AND don't start up another relationship or even remarry in the process, they have NOT committed sin against God, although they HAVE sinned against the LBS AND God, by not being open with them.(Thou shalt NOT lie) Yet, they are unable to do this out of fear, etc.
Even I had to face the possibilities of how this could come out, long before he recommitted to the marriage, but on some details, I was foggy at best.
My understanding is coming more clear as time goes on; and I'm more accepting of how this can happen; a place I wasn't in so long ago.
And I'm writing these things down as I see them more clearly; to help others understand the range of possibilities that can happen within the tunnel.
I can only hope it helps someone understand more about this monster we call MLC.
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HB, it's interesting what you say about them being able to decide on a different direction while in the tunnel. I often wonder about my H in that regard. He has shown himself to be a child, at least that is what it sounds like to me and to others to whom I recount the converstions (mostly here); however he also says "I don't want to and that won't change". I know I've wondered before if this is a decision already made.
Now I know it isn't clear-cut, but he has been through some pretty down times, and not really considered coming back. He did for a while near the beginning, but then said that he had thought about it, but that there were too many resentments. Then for a bit he said that there might be some hope. Then not. Then he said that we get on well, we share core values, but he doesn't feel sexually attracted. That he could love me as the mother of his children. Then he admitted attraction.
But through it all he still says he doesn't want to, that he doesn't go back. And now he's added that his not wanting to won't change.
And yes, I know he means it right now. That is how he feels, whether I like it or not. Despite his petulant tone.
I write because this bit left me a bit confused -- it seems to make sense, then that sense eludes me. It's like it comes and goes, like a cloud that materialises into a shape and then out again:
Easier to run away than to face all they've done, and to face the one they've done it to, is too much. But it does NOT mean they won't come on through...it simply means they may take longer to process through. In all three points, the love the MLC'er once had for the LBS is most likely gone or buried too deep to resurrect.
In each case the LBS may or may NOT be told....this is an individual decision, and regardless of how much the LBS would feel entitled to know; they may NOT get a chance to influence the MLC'er to change their minds.
I mean, it may go as far as the MLC'er telling the LBS to leave them alone, they are done with them, and they would actually MEAN what they were saying...and it can come at any of these three points, BEFORE the marriage is recommitted to.
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T&L although I am sure what HB wrote is true, I really wonder how you can be sure that it applies in each situation.
More specifically to your situation.
I know I have told you to accept his feelings for now,
I just can't help thinking that his feeling now may not change after his crisis.
I am sure if I pushed my wife right now for her feelings she would not tell me what I want to hear.
Do I think those are really her true feelings?
NO!
Just what is coming out in words right now.
I do not feel you can measure their decision by words and maybe not even by actions while they are still in the tunnel.
HB what do you think about this?
Can you expound a little more?
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I just can't help thinking that his feeling now may not change after his crisis.
OP, I just want to clarify this sentence -- does this mean that you think that his feelings are likely TO change, or COULD change after the crisis, or are likely NOT to change? It sounds like you think that what he's feeling now will NOT change after the crisis, but based on what you wrote about your own wife above (that you don't think what she says now are her true feelilngs) I feel a bit confused.
Am I making sense?
And yes, I know I need to accept whatever it is.
For my part, I completely agree that we can't measure their decisions by their words while in the tunnel.
FWIW, I still feel calm.
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Yes you are making sense, I think I wrote that poorly.
I am sorry. I should have left out the word "not".
I think his feelings MAY change.
Oh well, I am in midlife - you can't trust anything I say. LOL :) :) :)
I am glad someone can catch my mistakes!
Edit, reason, I cheated and went back and changed my post.
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:)
Thank you, OP -- FWIW I go back and change things like that as well....
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RCR does say that the OW can stay until the end of withdrawal but has to be gone before acceptance.
I don’t think that is specifically what I have said. I have said that there can be an alienator when an MLCer is no longer in Replay. Everyone has focused on that. But I have not said that it is common and people seem to leave that out. It is uncommon. I’ve seen people explain Replay asalienator = Replay as though it is a litmus test if there is an alienator—though it could be Replay without an alienator also, but if there is an alienator it must be Replay—or earlier.
The main importance is that it does not mean they are then with the alienator in Liminality. That would be highly uncommon. The specific case I think about each time I comment on this is a case of an MLCer who is stuck in Limbo which is the focus of an article series in the Newsletters coming out last week and for the next few issues. When Replay ends it does not mean they immediately go into Liminality. There may be a Limbo where they are between the phases, but not in either. That’s not so bad—this would be part of the awakening. The article series is about the extreme and rare cases of those who get stuck in Limbo—being in it does not mean they are stuck in it. An MLCer can also go back to Replay from this in-between phase. We often see that as cycling, but I wonder if there is something different in the cycling or if it is not what we usually refer to as cycling.
Liminality is rock bottom where they are the vulnerable and molted crab. But it is also a beautiful catharsis and reflection and is healthy when embraced. I’m not saying MLCers embrace it, but we all need Liminal periods.
The in-betweens who are stuck in Limbo don’t seem to have a rock bottom. I hope it is there, but it is more like falling into a black hole. I’ve said that Rock Bottom isn’t the lowest because they can dig deeper, but digging is an action. The in-betweens are not digging, they are just falling. You all think your MLCers are bad, Monsters, sad, lost…that is nothing compared to an in-between. The in-betweens goes through a psychotic breakdown; a typical MLC is like child’s play in comparison.
Is it possible that although not physically gone the OW/OM is emotionally gone and the relationship changes as the MLCer progresses along the tunnel by them distancing and detaching themselves at the end of replay? The answer is yes, it can happen that way and in that fashion. What you're asking is can the OW/OM break it off, using this procedure, just as well as the MLC'er can by doing the SAME thing...it has been known to happen that way; bringing on the awakening process within the MLC'er, as well as literally forcing the MLC'er into the OW/OM Withdrawal process.
I did not see the question as asking merely whether either party breaks off the relationship with that procedure. In cases of the in-betweens (those stuck, not merely in Limbo without being stuck) the alienator may be present, but the relationship doesn’t exist. It is a disconnected coexistence and sometimes a codependence.
I was thinking about Replay and addiction withdrawals yesterday. Replay is the addictive high. The drugs of in-fatuation and other Replay behaviours are still able to elicit the high response. But think about junkies. Eventually the drugs are not used to get high, but to get higher in the low that perpetuates. Once they are low and the drugs only get them high-er but not high, that is not Replay. When I think of in-betweens and their alienator I think of junkies in run-down squalor lying on urine-soaked mattresses shooting each other up with shared needles. The MLCer may not be in the same physical squalor, but it is an emotional and mental squalor.
That addiction or junkie-low is also not Liminality. To be Liminal they shed the addictive behaviours. Shedding is different than releasing; it is not letting go but more like peeling off layers of clothing or skin. This shedding is part of the climb down the Liminal chasm. If they fall rather than climb down, they will shed on the way and at the bottom, but it may be like a painful ripping of skin and burnt flesh from tissue rather than the slower and more gradual experience of climbing down. A fall is when there is a crisis or traumatic event. Letting-Go is different. In Liminality a person reviews the Shadow fragments, determining what to keep and what to release—let-go. The shedding of skin is not necessarily something an MLCer does, but rather it is passive, happening to them. They may then choose to cling to those strips and piles of what used to be their outer protective coating. That metaphorical skin is part of the fragments they will review and choose to either release or use for their re-creation.
An MLCer who tries to run back to Replay after being in Liminality cannot survive because they are without their skin—exposed tissue and raw nerves. Perhaps that is how some become in-betweens, though others fall or climb back down into Liminality.
An MLCer can be stuck in Replay—or be progressing slowly. That is the case with the MLCer who continues to display Replay behaviours for years and years.
Although at some point we need to ask ourselves whether we are simply passing judgment on a lifestyle choice. Are we casual or intimate observers? What we see is only part of the story.
There was an answer I was praying for, in regards to the timing of when the MLC'er may decide their lives must go a different direction, and I was surprised by the answer I got, but it made a great deal of sense to me.
The Lord showed me at least three points in the tunnel where the MLC'er can decide that their lives go another direction.
The first point is just as the "awakening" occurs; the OW/OM is still within the picture; and the MLC'er CAN decide to just go on with them, as they "love" them; and it seems to be much easier to keep what they have currently, than to come back.
OR they can go on and dump them, and walk away from the LBS; this is a decision they can make.
The second point, is during Depression, as part of the damage is shown; they can decide at any time to just walk away and not come back....they may feel the damage cannot be fixed, no matter what they do; evidence of depression within.
The third point is during Withdrawal, when MORE of the damage done is shown. They are hit harder than they were during Depression; they may decide to cut their losses, and simply walk away.
Excellent. This is an excellent explanation. When I think of the what Jim Conway called Withdrawal I do not consider it a separate stage. I think of it is the upward climb from Liminality and continuing into Rebirth and I think it would be the portion of Withdrawal in Rebirth that this would occur.
HB, it's interesting what you say about them being able to decide on a different direction while in the tunnel. I often wonder about my H in that regard. He has shown himself to be a child, at least that is what it sounds like to me and to others to whom I recount the conversations (mostly here); however he also says "I don't want to and that won't change". I know I've wondered before if this is a decision already made.
Now I know it isn't clear-cut, but he has been through some pretty down times, and not really considered coming back. He did for a while near the beginning, but then said that he had thought about it, but that there were too many resentments. Then for a bit he said that there might be some hope. Then not. Then he said that we get on well, we share core values, but he doesn't feel sexually attracted. That he could love me as the mother of his children. Then he admitted attraction.
But through it all he still says he doesn't want to, that he doesn't go back. And now he's added that his not wanting to won't change.
And yes, I know he means it right now. That is how he feels, whether I like it or not. Despite his petulant tone.
Trustandlove,
You are still describing him being inconsistent.
He did for a while…
But then…
Then for a bit…
Then not.
Then he said…but…
Then he admitted…
Then you describe his childish I don’t want to. He doesn’t want to face his feelings for you; he doesn’t want to lose control by having emotions; he doesn’t want to work on his Self. And so he denies and projects. You dismiss it, but his petulant tone is indicative of continuing Replay.
He may be consistent in one moment—or for a period of time, but he then says something that shows he is not yet certain. He may mean what he says when he says it, but that has no relevance to tomorrow. He is still mercurial.
I know that it is harder to see because he is neither high nor low energy where you can see Monster or depression. He functions and the two of you get along. But he has not shown significant (or any?) signs of reflection.
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Thanks for that explanation, RCR -- I may have to print that out to study further!
I find it particularly interesting, as my H's MLC has gone on for quite a while now (yes, I know it's not that long in MLC terms, but I meant it isn't in the beginning stages, as for so many here), and there is much less written about this part.
And you are right in that he hasn't shown signs of reflection. For a while I thought there were some, but either he's hiding them well, or there aren't any.
On my own thread I wrote out the chain of events, showing how he has changed, or rather how he has been inconsistent, to use your word, over the course of this crisis. That was educational in itself.
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I just looked in my files and found an article I last looked at in May on the Replay and Alienator topic. I even found some of the same phrases I used above! But I think working my thoughts through here helped to clarify. In May I was still uncertain as to how this could be given what Liminality is, I had not considered Limbo as part of that yet--and though I knew it, I had not verbalized to myself that the depression of the In-Betweens (those stuck in Limbo) is not Liminality.
It was a few years ago that I wrote about Replay not equaling Liminality as I watched a particular MLCers. I've seen others, but one in particular was striking and after awhile I wrote a little paragraph to add to my Liminality article about what I then called the Living Dead. I've since removed it because I took it and expanded it into the present series in the Newsletter--chaning the term Living Dead to Lost Souls.
I am going to work on this article for an upcoming issue--I think I only have an article for section 3 planned for the next issue and thus I need something and this may be good timing. It may also tie into what I've been writing for section 2...and I need more articles for the next issues for that section also and this may have given me more to say.
Everything is still jumbled in my brainstorms right now, but this is why I love this forum!
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But this is why I love this forum!
If you don't love it we are in MAJOR trouble! :) :) :)
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Exactly! This forum is a Godsend. :) :) :)
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Although at some point we need to ask ourselves whether we are simply passing judgment on a lifestyle choice. Are we casual or intimate observers? What we see is only part of the story.
But he has not shown significant (or any?) signs of reflection.
I've been reflecting (or perhaps grinding) on this today; if I've understood correctly, for it to be a lifestyle choice there would have to be that reflection? Or is that something that just "happens" if Replay behaviours just keep going for years and years.
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RCR -- the living dead is perfect title already, I like to refer to mine as zombie <name>, I know that is not sweetheart but it a tad better then the other name I use sometimes. I felt in the beginning (being that I love horror) that he was just a walking corpse and his behavior to me was devilish. Until reasonly I felt like a lost soul, but I can see why you changed the name.
I can so pictures ows/oms shooting up in drug houses.
What does this mean to us with vanishers, there is no way for us to know if the mlcer made a decision and that is that. I know we are suppose to be living our lives as if they aren't coming back, and with a vanisher we are already doing that but we are still all basically waiting on them. We can always stop at any time we choose, and as the months go by and ow still around there is nothing but faith for us to hold on to. And for me faith fading. The more I read, the more I learn, I've concluded that vanisher are weak, pure runners, imbrassed, and scared but maybe they just already made up their minds and they are gone for good.
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Mercury ,
You seem to always be thinking the same thing I am.
And it will be 1 year next month since BD , Affair has been going on 1 1/2 yrs ( at minimum ) and H has been living with OW 11 mo . Is this still considerd early in the crisis?
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hurt01 I know we are in the same sinking boat.
I'm one year, 2 months since BD, not sure how long affair has been going on, my guess is 10 months, living together a little over 4 months. I'd like to say no that we aren't early in the crisis but we are.
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Bumping this up for watching and waiting.
This is the discussion we had so far.
Hope this helps.
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The "BOMB DROP" is the beginning of the nightmare for the LBS; but it is NOT the beginning of the crisis for the MLC'er.
The MLC'er will have been within the crisis for some time BEFORE the Bomb Drop that sends the LBS scrambling to change things to the tune of the MLC'er's litany "It's ALL your fault we are in this mess!"
The Bomb drop also marks the beginning of an awareness within the LBS that something is very wrong...it is also the start of the battle within the LBS; fighting for normalcy within a NOT SO normal situation.
When people tell you that it's time to change; the LBS fights this; why? Because UNTIL they get some kind of understanding of what's happening; they go through the definition of insanity several times....trying to do the same thing, expecting different results.
What is the hardest to understand is the fact that YOU, the LBS cannot "fix" this; the MLC'er is the one who has to fix it...it is all about them; and not at all about you; regardless of how much blaming and justifying they may try and do in regards to their own actions toward the LBS and the MLC'er's marriage as a whole.
Even after you gain some understanding; there is much more to learn; but it is mostly about YOU; and what you can fix within yourselves.
The Bomb Drop is generally a "wake up" call to the LBS; and the result of that is the LBS Journey that is taken ONCE the LBS understands what they MUST do in order to get through THEIR part of what was wrong within their marriage/relationship.
I was talking to my sister earlier; I'd not had contact with her for some time....I have been finding out in bits and pieces that her first husband(she is divorced and is now remarried to a wonderful man); is deep within his crisis, and has been for around 6 years; he's still within the Replay with a vengeance; drinking himself half to death, doing cocaine and other drugs and he'd tried to kill her several times...that was why she threw him out.
At this point in time; he's finally gotten another woman because my sister won't take him back under ANY circumstances; once he'd hit her, he'd crossed a line NO ONE should cross, and he's come to several realizations so far; but still hasn't moved forward within the tunnel.
What I cannot get her to understand is the journey she must take; she is trying to understand what happened to this first husband; and I'm having a very hard time getting through to her.
I've sensed that she's going through a transition, herself; but doesn't see it; and her short term memory is damaged at the moment....she had totally forgotten the conversation we'd had before on this subject.
I know Son told me that it was a 'waste' when one doesn't "get it"..but I told him that sometimes you just have to keep trying; you will know when to give it all up. :)
She says her first husband acts just like a "little kid" "hides" from his son(who is almost 21); and she made some graphic references to something her son said....apparently he could hear his dad and the girlfriend having sex one night as he was spending the night with his dad....asked his mother(my sister) how many times a day had they had sex before he told her what he'd heard the last time he'd spent the night there.
She let him know this was a subject she would NOT answer him on...that was NONE of his business.
You know, my own son has never asked me that; and I don't think he ever will; that would certainly be a "taboo" subject...too personal for words.
After I could find my tongue, LOL! I was explaining that they have "highs" and "lows" due to some hormonal changes; she wanted to know if he had become "nympho"..and I explained that that extreme doesn't last for long before the bottom is reached once again.
She says he talks about this woman like a dog; calls her bad names to my sister; yet the woman cooks for him; cleans house; and has sex with him.
She has also remarked on how "OLD" he looks; he's my age, and my sister is 41.
He has told my sister he is "still in love" with her; and I let her know right quick that the typical MLC'er doesn't KNOW what love truly is...this is within the place they are within the tunnel.
He has also told her that her remarriage was "illegal" in the eyes of God; that my sister was still married to HIM; he's not recognizing their divorce, wanting to still control what she does.....I told her that if he ever says something like that to her again; let him know that when he got this woman he's with; and he got her BEFORE my sister remarried, that due to adultery; HE has already put the marriage asunder.
I advised her to cut contact with him completely; she says she has.
Anyway; I've done a great deal of listening today; trying to get her to understand that it is possible that he may not ever come out of this; and since he'd attacked her physically several times; she'd done the best thing she could do, and that was leave him.
She's comfortable with her decisions; but I sense she's trying to understand this; and she still doesn't get what I'm trying to tell her.....I believe she is also suffering from PTSD, and that can cause short term memory lapses, as well as an unhealthy focus on what has been done to her.
I could counsel and help her; I understand where she is; but she is so emotionally all over the place; I'm not sure I can do her much good; I'm praying on the situation for the Lord to guide me as I need to step with her.
Lord's it's been crazy around here; I'm currently at home; inherited a little chihuahua named Bandit from my husband as he's showing signs of allergy; so, I will have a tiny running mate within my truck. :)
Much love to you all; I think I hijacked the thread with what I've said later on about my sister....but here's another that started through the crisis; divorced her husband because of physical abuse; has now remarried..and is STILL having trouble from him.
Have a good one. :)
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HB
I am sorry to hear about your sister. If there is physical abuse, I believe that you get out permanently. I use to believe if there was solid mental abuse you should get out too, but I can't say that anymore since I haven't. We come to this website for help, we read and in the beginning we don't want to accept but in time, we do. She will accept when she is ready.
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HB
I am sorry to hear about your sister. If there is physical abuse, I believe that you get out permanently. I use to believe if there was solid mental abuse you should get out too, but I can't say that anymore since I haven't. We come to this website for help, we read and in the beginning we don't want to accept but in time, we do. She will accept when she is ready.
Different folks... Different strokes, we as individuals have what we can say, "tolerance level". We also have different beliefs... before getting into this relationship we know what we will stand for, and what we can tolerate, and compromise in order to keep our relationships. Through the years with the family we developed and adapted to each situation that occurs in our everyday life. In most cases we have lost our individual selves because of our commitment to the family. Now when this Crisis occurs we all go through a shock. It is normal that we would immediately accept the excuses and justification that was thrown our way, but this is the time that we have to examine ourselves... change what we need to change for us... go back to basics (diet, exercise, our spiritual beliefs, and focus on the children [if you have children] ). When you take care of yourself things will just fall into place. You may look at it as "leaving everything in God's hand".
If you choose to STAND then stand HEALTHY. Trying to find out when "ROCK BOTTOM" will occur is going to keep you sliding back because this question seems to be attached to some degree of expectation. Lets face it we have heard some stories here or in some other sites where the worst things that could happen to a Human being doesn't even place a dent on an MLCer. They too have different tolerance level. I have read in some stories that 1) Being thrown in Jail, 2) Life threatening disease, 3) Living in Poverty, or even 4) Death of a family member or better yet 5) They themselves being seriously Injured, don't make them snap out of it. On the other hand sometimes... something as simple as hearing a song on a radio could make them realize what they did.
Just keep in mind also that when they do hit "ROCK BOTTOM" it doesn't mean that the MLCer's one and only choice is to get back with us.
You will notice that you are a WHOLE person again when you can ACCEPT, LET GO, FORGIVE and lastly GIVE and ACCEPT LOVE.
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Thank you JustAsking!
I've probably read this 100 times, but it's always good to go back and refresh, especially for us beginners. Takes a while to get all of this stuff sorted out in our head....just so damn confusing!!
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I am hoping that someone can give further informarion on when they reach rock bottom.
After they have reached rock bottom where does the MLCer go then? Does their depression start to lighten as they enter withdrawal or is the depression just as deep? Does the LBS see any changes at all or only in retrospect?
I would love to hear any observations that you may have on this.
Thanks
I thought I would post this here on this thread what I thought, I haven't re-read this thread before I post this so bear with me.
My wife I thought was at rock bottom last year when she was fired from her job and was going to commit suicide.
That was January 2010
After she hit that point she made a real effort to start exercising and changing to get a new job.
Withdrawal didn't start until I believe June 2010 when she started to physically withdraw, moved out of the bedroom and again became very quiet.
Of course I got a second BD in Dec 2010 after she got a new job and probably some strength to fight the depression
Unfortunately the depression during withdrawal doesn't seem that much different to me than what went on during replay.
Just no replay antics, and things are much calmer.
Still a lot of controlling type behaviors.
And she has still not faced her fears.
She would still rather blame me than admit that she could be wrong.
Now maybe my stages are all messed up and I don't know what I am talking about.
But that is my experience, and I think we really won't know until it is in the rear view mirror.
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OP
Thanks for this.
As you know I think my H is hitting rock bottom but then bouncing or not as OW still there. He does seem to get renewed finance to sustain OW but as you said with your W his replay 'spending' as subsided completely except for her.
I am interested to see that even in withdrawal your W continued to blame you. I think we forget that some of these behaviours continue until and including acceptance and it's good to be reminded of that.
Maybe we put to much store on 'rock bottom' and in some cases maybe it is a bouncing up and down. Maybe the rear view mirror is best.
xx
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I agree the rear view mirror is best.
I see H swirling right now as things to GRASP at are running out...and I can see the toil and confusion FROM NOT BEING HAPPY YET.
So hard to watch someone continue to spin themselves silly :o...so glad I've learned to not go with him...It's a much better place to be.
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I think dearheart hit rock bottom last fight, I honestly worried whether he was going to take his life or not. He looked so ill, so dreadful hard to describe really.
In saying that he's bounced and whether he will slide again who knows. I do know there is a change within him but what i can't say for sure. he's still in replay. He may have to slide again, who knows. I know for me when i hit rock it still took a little while to seek help as my first reaction was to run again.
So who knows where it will lead.
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I am sure there are also many cases where we may not even in hindsight be able to pinpoint the true rock bottom unless our MLCer tells us when they had hit that point.
As JA stated, I think sometimes they kind of bounce around there for awhile, too, before they make the effort to climb back up. It may not be an obvious one point in time. IDK.
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Hi I'm GED and I'm a compulsive gambler. I say that becasue I think I can answer a little about what rock bottom means to me. For me it was the realization that my life was no longer managable and that I had absolutely no control over what I did. Every waking moment was consumed by gambling. How I was going to get out of work early to get there. What lies I would tell on the way home so thinking that I was fooling everyone with my lies. True rock bottom was sitting in my car after leaving the casino and literally throwing up in my car. Knowing that my life had spiraled so far out of control I could see no way back. It took me a month after that moment to attend my first GA meeting. Joining that program has given me such insight in to my life. The good the bad and the ugly. It hasn't been easy, and I've had some really emotional revelations.
Now if you re read that and insert MLC instead of gambler I think it is the same thing. Am MLCer won't hit rock bottom until they are ready to look at themself and truly inderstand the situation they have gotten themself in to. Until that happens there won't be a rock botom. Just my .02.
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I thought it would be helpful if I posted on what I am currently seeing as H reaches rock bottom. He hit the sides in Jan but bounced as he was able to find more money to keep his fantasy world going a bit longer.
About 2 weeks ago I felt a change in his demeanor. The feeling of hopelessness left him and an acceptance became evident. This was as there was no further hope of any more cash for replay or the business. He ran out of options. He is extremely depressed, not sleeping, huge black bags under his eyes and has constant headaches. During this 2 weeks his text and phone calls increased to me which is highly unusual.
His business has hit the deck and will now go into liquidation and his personal debt is also under review. There is no more money. He has spent the bloomin lot :o
A week ago he rang me and we talked for 40 mins about the business and his feelings of inadequacy, responsibility etc. For the first time he didn't blame me for the mess but himself. He was crying and very emotional. Repeating things over and over again. He sounded completely broken. I validated a lot of what he said. He felt he had let everyone down. Employees, me and the children. He wasn't able to give anyone what they needed now.
I hope this gives others an insight ito where rock bottom is.
We are told that we will know when rock bottom happens and you do. They really are broken. But it is different from what I expected. He is clean shaven, tidy and even had a hair cut. But he look, sounds and is completely broken. He has now withdrawn again into his cave. His employees will be told over the next couple of weeks that he has no money to pay them and no job to go to. He did prepare me for going quiet by saying although it looked as if he was running away he just couldn't take the flack from his employees and the looks. He feels totally responsible for their position. So he has gone away without his phone so as no one can contact him. I assume OW has gone with him.
I also feel that OW feels the difference. When he was visiting the children she text 3 times and rang. She hasn't done that since the early days after BD. Although he didn't answer either the text or phone when he was with the children.
Having read liminality my H fits it like a glove. Even down to OW hanging on but the relationship changing. But MLC journey continues and other than rock bottom his living arrangements with OW remain the same. So no expectations and continue to watch and wait. He isn't out of the woods yet and still has a long way to go on his journey, though I would like to see her gone lol.
xx
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want to read the rest of this thread but as it's not been written on in a while and I don't know how to bookmark it, I'm wondering how I can revisit it? Send a message to myself perhaps? Any comments?
Sil x
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I wish this thread was continuing as I feel my H is hitting "rock bottom". He is usually a clinger but has retreated into "hiding" from me and only communication is texting so I can't see or hear how he really feels. The alcohol abusing is getting extremely worse and the anger and depression is also worse as he has never been a "monster" during replay.
I'm not sure how to explain the behaviour other than "rock bottom" would love some insight into this a bit more.
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Hi C i found this article relating to Rock bottom whilst its related to drugs and alcohol.........to me as this article states rock bottom can mean different things for different people ........in other words what person can with stand another may not if that makes sense xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://intervene.drugfree.org/2010/02/hitting-bottom-my-drug-and-alcohol-addiction-vocabulary-is-ever-changing/
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Thanks WGH...if we could just get into their minds then we would be set- or maybe not cause it could be quite scary!
Makes sense... :)
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want to read the rest of this thread but as it's not been written on in a while and I don't know how to bookmark it, I'm wondering how I can revisit it? Send a message to myself perhaps? Any comments?
Well, if you're using Explorer; you'll see "Favorites" on your left; it has a "star"beside it; click on it, and you'll see "Add to Favorites"..click that, you'll see a box open in front of you, then you click 'add'..and you should be able to see in your list....OR you hold CTRL and D at the same time; this will also give you a box so you can click "add" or "done"
If you're using Mozilla Firefox; click on "bookmarks" at the top of the page; when the box drops down you can click on "bookmark this page" OR hold CRTL and D at the same time to get a box that shows you bookmarking this page...then you click "done".
I hope this helps. :)
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I wish this thread was continuing as I feel my H is hitting "rock bottom". He is usually a clinger but has retreated into "hiding" from me and only communication is texting so I can't see or hear how he really feels. The alcohol abusing is getting extremely worse and the anger and depression is also worse as he has never been a "monster" during replay.
I'm not sure how to explain the behaviour other than "rock bottom" would love some insight into this a bit more.
You might want to go back and read from the first of this thread, and keep reading it until you gain more insight...sometimes you don't get true insight within the first read or two or three...sometimes it takes reading several times to get what you need out of any particular subject.
When hitting rock bottom they DO retreat deeply within themselves; but there is NOT one thing you can do to help them start their way back up; they MUST do this on their own.
They must begin to see there is truly "value" in climbing out of the place they find themselves down in; as once you hit rock bottom; the ONLY way out is UP; you can't go ANY further DOWN, unless one commits suicide; and this can get pretty dangerous as the MLC'er must begin to see themselves in a whole different light; and this often means hitting rock bottom in order to begin the climb to the top.
I didn't say "back to the top"...I simply said to the top. They come out of rock bottom much different than they landed within.
It's like a "starting over" in a very real sense; one person goes down hitting rock bottom; a new person comes forth in various aspects ALTHOUGH they are STILL a good way from exiting the tunnel.
Things will always get worse before they get better; and their depressive state must bottom out before they are able to go on.
And it's not unusual for them to sit down there in a HUGE pity party for a time before they begin to make the climb out.
They can run harder and harder UNTIL they fall farther than they've ever fallen before.
Maybe this will help...but then he could be cycling fast and furious that may LEAD him into rock bottom, crazy for him....there is a time when they become so far gone; there is nothing left BUT to hit the bottom, and bounce hard a few times.
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Although I recorded this earlier I will re post my H rock bottom and how I saw it. Throughout the process I was detached and never tried to 'help' as I knew he had to complete this on his own however painful it got.
He had been cycling fast from Christmas 2010 and finally slipped further down in Jan 2011 to a point that I was worried about the risk of suicide as his depression was sooo deep and he had no motivation. But he bounced again back into replay when his spending increased again for a short time.
It took another 6 months until June 2011 for him to hit the bottom and stay there.
When it finally happened he and I spoke for 40 mins. He was crying and sorry for everything he had done. He talked about how he had always tried to be there for me and his family. I validated all his feelings of being inadequate and lost. At this point the hopelessness had gone and there was an overwhelming feeling of acceptance that he had nowhere else to go now. With that came an odd peace for him as he started his journey up. During that phone call he gave me fleeting observations of his life to come and the acceptance of how and why he had got there. I did offer my help if he needed it as I didn't want him to feel completely alone.
He remained in deep depression and then withdrawal proper until now. Since June 2011 we have not had another in depth conversation like the one in June. He continues his journey to find his true self.
Please don't think that once they hit rock bottom they turn around overnight. There is a long way to go before they complete their journey. The space and time they need is still there and indeed with withdrawal the silences are long and prolonged. But each journey is different. so as HB would say follow your intuition and God's instructions. Keep out of the way of the process and let yoursand their journey continue.
xx
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Thank you so much HB and JA. Would I be the only one to see the depression? It's weird if I would be the only one to see it as I am probably the one who sees him the least but of course we know them the best. But would anyone else see it?
The reason I question it is cause normally he is a CB but the distance he has created is so noticeable that I would wonder what else it would be. Even the cycling isn't this distant when he cycles away (we run a business together) so the communication right now is almost nothing. But can they stay with OW during this phase cause I have a feeling the R is about to collapse as well- hence maybe the depression of the R ending is part of it???
This is definetely a different H that I have seen and I'm not sure how deep he is but I have also noticed as we still have a joint account that the beer consumption has also increased....guess that's part of it as well!
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Crazy
All these changes you are seeing are part of his journey and maybe significant or not. It is only after they have moved through that it becomes obvious. Remember that MLCers constantly wear masks and you may have the only insight into how depressed he is. He will have one mask for you and one for everyone else. They are very good at compartmentalising their lives.
Your H maybe more depressed or withdrawn because his relationship with OW is under pressure OR it maybe that he nears the bottom. But the bottom is literally when they have lost everything and have nowhere to go.
My H OW has hung on throughout his trip to the bottom. But each journey is different.
xx
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I would like to add that I think one reason the concept of Rock Bottom is confusing, is that when in the second half of Replay, the impacts of the crisis start to catch up with the MLCer and they can hit the bottom, really, really hard. They may well look like they are hitting "the" bottom, in the intensity, but the processing in depth has not really begun. This really is a sliding scale.
Moving through the second part of Replay, I have seen in my sitch, and versions of others, these bounces. The first bounce down seems to be when the practical aspects (financial, impact on work etc) of the crisis catching up with them, maybe around 18 months or so. Depending on what they got up to, this first bounce can be recognised with the "why does bad luck keep happening to me, its everyone elses fault". This bounce may last many months, with dips back into hard Replay to deal with it. Poor attempts, then serious attempts are made to deal with the consequences of this.
Eventually, this becomes "I caused this, how could have I, what sort of person have I become? I see no way out of it". This is clearly still Replay, but clarity starts to come through. Again, this can take a long time, with bounces back to Hard Replay and every day life interrupting. Attempts are made to deal with this, but the big picture is still not there, so these are perhaps not successful.
The third major Replay bounce that may occur, and perhaps comes closer the the "awakening" part of Replay, is the "Oh #@$%, this really has, really impacted on others who are very close to me." To begin with, this is a statement, again, then attempts may be made to try to fix some of aspects.
These Replay bounces for some can be really, really hard bounces too. For others, the hard bounces comes after Replay.
To me, the difference between bounces towards rock bottom during Replay and afterwards, is that it is after Replay when a much wider range of solutions are attempted, and there is growing self confidence that solutions will be found, which in turn promotes more realistic solutions. This is such a grey area it really is only in hindsight that patterns start to emerge. Its like depression during the second half of Replay is more involved with assembling the puzzle peices, so that when they eventually move to Liminality/Depression/Withdrawal that they have most of the peices, the job then becomes looking at them all and sorting them out. This process perhaps causes the Rock Bottom depression event.
Much like our journey after BD really!
Of course, each journey has different elements that carry different weight, due to the individual paths, damage caused, and personalities of those involved.
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I think that as with most things MLC, we won't be able to determine what rock bottom was until it is hindsight, and maybe quite awhile afterwards. It is possible we may not ever know what that "rock bottom" place for the MLCer was unless they tell us at some point. I am not sure we will be able to necessarily pinpoint it just from our observations. I certainly thought I had seen my H hit rock bottom at the end of summer/beginning of fall based on my observations and what little he told me but now . . . who knows.
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Thank you for your advice HB re the bookmarking - so simple, I hadn't thought of it - typical of me!! :)
I have no idea why I've been drawn to this thread as I do not think my h is anywhere close to Rock bottom, and at times, I think he might still only be in Denial.
I often feel the depression swoon over me, together with the overwhelming feelings of shock then hopelessness of my life. Then it passes, and I 'live' again. Occasionally H & I have short conversations and I guess it's interesting to hear from his comments, that we might both be dealing with this horror through some form of avoidance. I wrote a poem ages ago about it: A Void Dance. That's what it feels like. I know I don't want to hit my rock bottom as it scares the hell out of me. Maybe the same can be said of him. We are at checkmate.
Except...
It feels as if the dawn is beginning to break for me. I'm slowly moving to understand what this loss means to me in my life and really, really learning to let go.
This is the hardest lesson I've ever chosen to learn.
Sil x
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Hi Everyone,
I've seen a lot of replies where the LBS spouse is told that the MLCr
needs to hit "rock bottom" or "crash and burn" before they come out of the MLC.
What does this mean?
If "you" or "your MLCr" has hit rock bottom or crashed & burned, could you please post
what transpired, what it looked like? What may have caused the rock bottom, how they behaved?
Could you tell the "rock bottom" was happening?
Oh yeah, did it or is it affecting their jobs/careers?
This is for everyone - currently separated and stbd or divorced.
Thank you,
Speed
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Speed, there are no absolutes in this my friend. Bottom likely looks different for everyone. My bottom was pretty miserable and im not ready to share that part other than I didn't know I had bottomed until I started coming back up.
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Speed, there are no absolutes in this my friend. Bottom likely looks different for everyone. My bottom was pretty miserable and im not ready to share that part other than I didn't know I had bottomed until I started coming back up.
Couldn't have said it better. In fact, what I faced at my MLC 'rock bottom' wasn't nearly as challenging on paper as things I've gone through since and been fine with. It has to do with the person's mental and emotional state, not any outward circumstances, that much I believe. I would have predicted my xH to hit it a million times by now with how ridiculous his life is, but he still has either the energy or the apathy to maintain the crisis. Only time will tell if that changes.
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I'm not looking for absolutes. I realize everyones is different. When people use the terms, they must be referring to something. If it is that open ended, they should never give it a name like rock bottom - or anything for that matter because it don't exist.
Ok, so there is no rock bottom -
Rock bottom is something the LBS creates in their minds to justify a turning point or new decision in the MLCr's life?
I'm still confused on this one...
Thanks,
Speed
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'Rock Bottom' is Rock Bottom for THEM, whatever it may mean. That is why it's difficult to reply to. It's a personal journey.
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To me the definition of Rock Bottom is when You Are So Sick And Tired Of Being Sick And Tired that you do something To change The circumstances. That goes for both sides.
My rock bottom was when she relapsed and contacted OM again. It broke the little bit I had left...and now I was done feeling like that and finally started to move on. Alone but in the same house...my journey was from that point, MINE...it had nothing to do with her anymore. Hers was when she realized that realized that her fantasy was just that, a fantasy...and that she had destroyed her family with that fantasy. The realization that everyone know what she had done...that she had been a fool and a fraud...It woke her from the foggy slumber of trying to act like she was 21 and unmarried...but it was only the beginning of her long climb back to being herself. She had to work through all the issues that got her there in the first place before she could be a good mother, a good friend, and certainly a good wife.
Speed...the sooner you focus on YOU, Your Journey, and set a course to trying to heal and strengthen yourself the sooner you will stop trying to Understand MLC...and Start Surviving & Overcoming MLC. Rock Bottom certainly evokes changes to both the MLC'r and the LBS...but the only one you can do anything about is yours.
Stay Strong
BB
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Rock bottom is something the LBS creates in their minds to justify a turning point or new decision in the MLCr's life?
Uh, no. Rock bottom is a term that describes the lowest possible level, and is frequently used in mental health and addiction circles. It's been observed in MLC. And just a reminder - though your marriage is collateral damage of MLC, it's still not just about your marriage. I'm sorry you're in the rough stages of this, but there's no need to insult all of us who have been dealt this crushing blow in our lives.
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I hit rock bottom in my addiction. The feeling is this.. You absolutely feel there is no reason to live. You feel alone ,helples, emotional pain. You hurt. You want someone to take it all away. It came on slowly inside of me, no one would have known but i knew , i pretended , i was doing nothing different than usual but my cry for help real help was extremmely dramatic one day. I crashed. I went to rehab that evening after a long day and started climbing out the next day after my bottom. I realized i had to fix myself and no one could do that for me. I had to want a new life. I did not like who i was and what i had become. The thing i feared most was losing my h . He was being mean and detached and distant. I soon realized h was in replay. The monster came out and i was at a lose. I found his behavior described in all the mlc articles i have read and was a bit releived this was it and not my drinknig that caused him to leave. Sometimes i still question this but my h is classic mlc. From his actions to the phrases to the behavior are spot on with him. The only thing i think i can say is at the end i got sloppy. I did not care who knew anymore and just let it all go. If that helps at all.
But i have a question...
When the mlcer knows he does not want to stay with the alienator and is trying to end it ,im just curios if there a an average of how long it takes to end it especially with a blackmailer affair partner. I know she is doing this.
My h has been in replay for 2.5 years to my knowledge but he had a secret life before this. I am pushing the d now because i dont know how long this will llast. When i read rcr articles and she mentions mlcer can get stuck when they dont have enough strenth to let go of the op , i cant stand any longer. I want to try to work on my marriage but i cant wait forever. What does the mlcer think when we lbers push d. ? I mean i know no one knows but if any one can tell me how they might be feeling . Like how rcr says sometimes they feel its hopeles. Or to stay with the affair partner only because they feel that they feel stuck and should make this last thing work. Im currantly in nc and pushing d because i just dont know what else to do. I just cant do this anymore. My h woke up some time in may to july and ran back to escape and avoid. Sorry i carried on.
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Speed,
I know it's hard to do yet your W needs lots of time and space to work on herself. Seems like you're putting the horse before the cart with your questions.
While your W is taking care of her issues, why not work on you? RCR and others have written great articles for us LBS and children to do while they are working on themselves.
The children really NEED one stable parent. Why not start to put the focus on you and them and leave your wife to finally heal?
Self Focus is key for us to survive. Have you got back to your music?
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I cannot comment on rock bottom as far as MLC is concerned but I can comment as far as addiction because I experienced this when my H hit rock bottom after a serious addiction to coke 12 years ago....and to me, I imagine it to be (from wht I have read from those who have gone through it or witnessed it) to be the same as what my H went through on his coke rock bottom and what some have coped with at various points in our lives, when we experience other things similar to MLC/addiction, like very low points consecutively, either way its a time where we are being destructive and realise to carry on will lead to total physical, mental, spiritual, financial or moral destruction or a combination of some or all.
Its when you are standing on the precipice, when you realise to continue will ultimately destroy 'you'. I personally believe that MLC and addiction are very similar because I believe both involve an alteration of brain chemicals and so are very similar and particularly where an AP is concerned because the high of addiction and coke are the same.
I think my H is near to it, but it still could take some time and maybe he will fight it and not go to the real bottom this time, it can happen.....we human beings are resilient and we can go down and bounce up again, we can be near destruction and then do things to mitigate the damage, we can dance on the edge.............BUT I do believe, like drugs, MLC is one of those things which means eventually the body, spirit, mind or a combination of the three or all three lead them to self destruction or out of the tunnel......BUT as I said we can bounce back.
When my H hit rock bottom for coke addiction it followed a binge which was triggered by me saying I could not "do this anymore" ...this referred to our relationship and the uncertainty etc.....he went on a 3-4 day binge and then suddenly phoned me and asked me if he could meet me
There was something in his voice, (to this day I don't know what it was, but I 'knew' it was different), I agreed to meet him at my home and when I got back to my house he arrived shortly after and just broke down and cried......saying how he knew if he carried on taking coke he would kill himself and he loved me and wanted to stop...
With MLC I believe, from what I have read, its not dissimilar, however I think its more of a gradual awareness and less dramatic (though newmans story illustrates more of a sudden awareness).
My therapist, who is a neuroscientist and has been a therapist for 35 years says MLC is more like a chemical imbalance similar to post natal depression and feels its more of a gradual awareness. She said its more like a very choppy sea which the MLC is swimming in and at the beginning means the MLC gets dragged down into the depths all the time but as it progresses, the choppy sea has periods of calm and so they are more aware and get more aware as the time goes on and the sea becomes more calm......
Of course, part of this 'bottom' is the realisation of the guilt and shame and as time goes on, the MLC'er is more aware of the damage caused. Adding to this the low self esteem they feel, they are less likely to reach out to the very person they feel such guilt and shame for hurting (the LBS) and baring in mind, in many cases the LBS has moved on, or the relationship has broken down, meaing that if/when rock bottom comes, its not always witnessed by the LBS and maybe there are more MLC'ers that hit a dramatic bottom but don't show it to us so its less well documented.
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Speed Racer, if you have not read it, I highly recommend "Signs of Depression in MLC": http://whatismidlifecrisis.blogspot.com/2013/07/signs-of-depression-in-mlc.html?m=1. Though written about male MLCers, comments below attest it is accurate for female as well.
#10 and #26 address your questions about when a breakthrough/turning point might occur and what the result could be. As you will see, each may vary according to the MLCer.
On HS, you will see posters with many theories, some overlapping. I am someone who thinks MLC is at least partially neurological/chemical imbalance. With that in mind, consider that a person with a mental illness may have different level of severity or duration.
I have read that MLC is like bipolar. Along this line Replay is mania. Most people with bipolar don't seek help until they hit overt depression. This is Liminality you read about on the site.
I think many MLCers are chemically imbalanced. Therefore what would typically "wake up" a person in their right mind who was engaging in destructive behaviors due to psychological reasons is unlikely to wake up a person experiencing a psychiatric problem.
I'm like you, I have so many questions.
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Neurological issues would have to do with the central nervous system and nothing to do with a chemical imbalance.
Yes indeed a chemical imbalance can be in play yet that has nothing to do with the central nervous system.
Speed asked about 'Rock Bottom' which is something that happens much later on in the crisis like a few years away and is a newbie. We as older HS members might want direct him to focus on healing himself and his children not to confuse him and to help him out.
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There are certain neurotransmitters that also effect hormones and chemical imbalance. I very much agree, Velika, at least in my case, there is no question there is overlap between what is happening with my xH emotionally and biologically.
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My point is not someone agrees or not, it's to finally help him start to heal. I know how hard it is to take the focus off the MLCer and start to focus on yourself.
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I'm glad the discussion was started. I think speed racer is at the point of trying to learn all he can about MLC.
I am 18 months in and still trying to learn.
I believe it's important to learn and ask questions and that that can be done while also focusing on ourselves.
He may be asking a question about something that won't happen for quite a while, but we all do that. And the responses will help others, not just speed racer.
Speed is still extremely new to all of this. It takes time to process what is happening.
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His questions are very good! don't get me wrong. It's just that when I first started and my mind would drift to my MLCer? My mentor was there to help me back to put the focus back on me.
It wasn't very easy. lol
I'm just helping to do the same because I know just how hard it is.
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Rock Bottom for me was when I was crying inconsolably and felt completely helpless. There was a specific evening I remember falling asleep after begging God to take away the pain because I couldn't do it anymore. The next day I had a sense of peace and began little by little to pull myself up and get on with life. It was the start of Acceptance. I needed to hit my personal Rock Bottom so I could stop focusing on the MLC, the affair, and the pain. It allowed me to turn inward and do the real mirror work that has set me up for growth over the past year.
As someone mentioned, everyone has their own bottom. For MLCers I think it's the point when they stop running because they can't run any longer from the person staring back at them in the mirror. It's only then that their growth and healing can begin.
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I certainly don't fault speed for wanting to learn everything he can about MLC, because I believe that knowledge will help him with detachment. Once he feels sure in his mind that MLC is a process that takes time, he will be able to let go to do what she needs to do.
But seeking that knowledge can also be about control. Some people—and I'm not saying speed is one of those people—think that if they know what MLC is, that they can guide or push them MLCer though the tunnel. It doesn't work that way: I can no more coach someone through their MLC than I can force someone's broken leg to heal faster.
Moreover, trying to help your MLCing spouse will not actually help you to heal. Setting your own feelings aside because your spouse's crisis is more important is an extremely codependent way of thinking.
Speed, you will know when your wife is through the tunnel and willing to consider reconciliation because it will show in her behavior towards you. I'm going to echo what the others said; focus on taking care of yourself and the kids.
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Did I read the question wrong? I was thinking Speed wanted to know about anyone and everyone's rock bottom, LBS and MLCER alike.
If that is so, from this person's LBS perspective, my rock bottom came the day I woke up and decided I was ok with whatever happened. I didn't break him, I can't fix him, but I can fix me. All the anxiety about where he was or what he was doing, or what he said or did meant disappated. I guess mine was more like I started climbing out, but I had no idea I'd hit the bottom. I just knew it was time to live my life, for me and my kids, and if H joined us somewhere along the way, fine. If not, fine, too.
So Speed, if you might be wondering when you, as an LBS, might hit your own rock bottom, so you can start to feel normal again, I'd venture it happens when you accept that this is what you have, you can't change anyone but yourself, and you want to move forward with your life. Not necessarily on, but forward. I let go of trying to control the outcome, felt the grief that comes with a death, for this was surely the death of the H that I'd known, and mourned the loss of my innocence.
If you are wondering how you will recognize rock bottom in your spouse, I think you will know it when you see it. And since a watched pot never boils, may as well live your life instead of watching, right?
Time. It goes by quicker than you think.
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Hi Speed,
I just saw this and thought it might be helpful for you. I don't see your page so I'm posting it here.
Survival Instructions for Newbies
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0
Take care of you and your children now. The rest will fall in place the way it's supposed to.
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Speed,
I think Keep Believing and FacePalm both gave excellent answers to what rock bottom feels like.
KB:
I hit rock bottom in my addiction. The feeling is this.. You absolutely feel there is no reason to live. You feel alone ,helples, emotional pain. You hurt. You want someone to take it all away. It came on slowly inside of me, no one would have known but i knew , i pretended , i was doing nothing different than usual but my cry for help real help was extremmely dramatic one day. I crashed. I went to rehab that evening after a long day and started climbing out the next day after my bottom. I realized i had to fix myself and no one could do that for me. I had to want a new life. I did not like who i was and what i had become. The thing i feared most was losing my h .
FacePalm:
Rock bottom for me was when I was crying inconsolably and felt completely helpless.
I remember a specific evening falling asleep after begging God to take away the pain because I couldn’t do it anymore.
I believe this is how most MLCer's feels their rock bottom. It's like you get to a point where you have no choice but to surrender, stop running and finally get to acceptance. You know you are the only one who can change your life.
Speed, I think you will know if that happens for your W.
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I've re-read a few accounts recently by MLCers describing their journey, some on other sites, but one of them that comes to mind is the MLC journey recounted in this thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.0
A common thing I've seen in accounts by MLCers is a description of being literally on the floor sobbing after some kind of realization that didn't seem to be brought on by any particular event - for example, from the above thread:
"The depression could no longer be silenced, I finally hit rock bottom – I woke up one morning in my apartment looking at my sleeping affair partner with a fragmented memories from an alcohol induced fog from the night before. In my hangover stupor I was suddenly struck by deep feelings of anxiety - I did not really know the person who lay beside me...
I kept these feeling in check long enough to ask my affair partner to give me some timeout and upon starring at a photo of my daughters in happier times I crashed – I curled up on the floor in a foetal position and cried and cried and cried for the loss of my innocence, self- worthiness, integrity and for the person I used to be."
I think a lot of times rock bottom is not any kind of big traumatic event, but happens more within the person hitting rock bottom. In those cases, we might not recognize that they've hit rock bottom, but might recognize a change in their behavior that follows hitting bottom.
So I would echo what others have said about not worrying about when or where rock bottom will be, because we can never know for sure, but if we're looking too hard, there's always the potential to see something that isn't really there.
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Bottom for me was sitting in my car in the pouring rain and being completely numb. Dark thoughts raced through my mind and the realization that I hadn't acted on them was a choice based on values, not fear. It occurred to me that I was fearless and capable of anything in that moment. I truly had stopped giving a f about anything. In that moment Im not even sure I had it in me to care about my kids :/
More than anything, being in that head space frightened me. I knew in that moment I could act irrationally without fear of consequence. I remember texting or calling Elray who mentioned emotional exhaustion which seemed to apply. I also called my counselor who I had not seen in a few months and met with her. I know in many ways my journey mirrored that of my xw. Fortunately I made different CHOICES in those critical moments that prevented a bad situation from getting worse.
This brings me to another point. There was a thread asking if the person in MLC has any self control. I don't think a simple yes or no does that question justice. I know for me, I did make choices in those critical moments. Those choices were guided by my personal values and that is where I believe the difference lies. I think the person in MLC does make conscious choices and decisions that often times are in direct contrast to their long held values. In an effort to escape depression I think they intentionally make decisions in direct opposition to what they know to be right. Perhaps the temporary thrill/brain chemicals provide relief and that brings on the fog. Ultimately I do believe they are making conscious decisions to go against their morals and values and when you change your values you change yourself.
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Thank you everyone,
Even though I didn't really know what Rock Bottom was, I was under the assumption
that it was what the MLC'r had to go through to pass through the MLC.
I didn't even think about the LBS hitting rock bottom. I knew they would be absolutely devastating, I knew their entire
life would change and they would never be the same person again,
but didn't associate rock bottom with the LBS.
There are some replies that I can't tell if you were the MLC'r or the LBS - which is strange, because there is a big difference
between being the MLCr or LBS, (or stander)
My IC has told me that every aspect of the MLC life is affected (not just the marriage and family)
The have told me that they are not thinking rational at this time. That is why nothing you do or say will help.
My IC hasn't actually said the words "MLC," but everything they have said about my situation is exactly what most of the people here (who respond) do. They also have told me that the person in MLC destroys first the Marriage/Family - completely destroyed. Then their lives start to get out of control and then the persons in MLC begins having problems at work/career. This happens even when they have had an impeccable career throughout their whole lives - their employment somehow suffers...
Has any of you noticed this with you or your MLCr?
Speed
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My H decided he hated his job with such an intense passion that he quit and moved 1100 miles away to start all over in an entry level position.
For at least a year and half before he quit he was miserable there, completely irritated by coworkers he previously was close to and he even told me one day he yelled at his boss.
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They also have told me that the person in MLC destroys first the Marriage/Family - completely destroyed. Then their lives start to get out of control and then the persons in MLC begins having problems at work/career. This happens even when they have had an impeccable career throughout their whole lives - their employment somehow suffers...
Has any of you noticed this with you or your MLCr?
Speed
My husband was a leader in his industry, making almost 1/2 million a year. He switched companies about 2 years before BD with promises of doubling his income within a few years. This new company is where he met "the girl". He was fired about nine months ago and now can't get a job in his industry b/c he burned all his bridges in such a short time. He has since became a real estate agent but has yet to sell one house.
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Speed,
That's definitely the pattern I see with my H. I am about 14 months post BD and our "family" has been changed-I REFUSE to say destroyed b/c I am not going to raise broken children and I do not want them to see their dad as destroyed-we say hurting and struggling. His job, which he has been very respected and successful in for 17 yrs, has collapsed around him. His ego and pride took over and he has, in the past year, burned so many bridges and ended so many relationships at a rate that is mind blowing.
For me, it's really scary to watch the one you love spin completely out of control and self-destruct....it's hard. I pray to not develop a hard heart towards him or any other relationship for that matter. It's really easy for me to throw walls up and keep everyone out when I am scared.
Hang in there! We're all here when you need us!
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"There is such a difference btwn the mlcer and lbs."
Im not so sure this is completely accurate.
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I don't know if my W has hit rock bottom and I don't really care. I have shared this story many times but my rock bottom was about a month after BD when I was in a cycle of --oh my god, what is W doing right ow, I need to check all social media and our phone bills, I need to beg her to come back, etc. etc.
I was away with the kids for the weekend and she was away with friends at a nightclub, looking great, and someone posted a salacious picture of her on Instagram and her OM "liked" it. It was about 3:30 a.m. and I texted her and she wanted nothing to do with me and that was it, the lowest I felt.
The next morning, I woke up and decided--that's it. I'm focusing on myself. F her. I haven't really looked back from there and maybe that's where I differed and started to feel like I wasn't standing.
I started to feel better. I went out on dates and felt better and I began to forget that I wanted her back until I didn't think of that at all.
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"There is such a difference btwn the mlcer and lbs."
Im not so sure this is completely accurate.
I agree, DJ. BD sends us into an emotional tailspin, and in many ways we are on a similar trajectory to rebuild ourselves and our lives, just as the MLCer is. The huge difference is that we are not escaping and avoiding--at least, not like they are. We tend to recognize the need to work on ourselves much sooner than the MLCer and, therefore, rebuild ourselves that much faster.
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Regardless of being the MLCer or LBS we're all human and have to go through the stages of grief/loss: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance. Looking back I can identify each of those stages. Difference between MLCer and LBS is how we progress through the stages and how we manage them (turn outward vs turn inward).
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The key word is SURRENDER.. No matter what your infliction is. When this happens you give up the life you are pretending ..you finally admit your way is not working and you are desperate for help. With mlcers they always seem to get that reassurance that keeps them from this. I think that is were the ow comes into play. An mlcer has to see the manipulation iin the op before hitting bottom. I beleive the ow is the last thing that holds them up. Until they realize the ow is not what they want they keep going. Just my opinion .
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I believe surrendering to their hellish situation is very true.
The ow holding them up? Not so sure about. What about MLCer's who have no OP? If that were the case they should by all rights come out of their crisis sooner. But I don't see that to be true.
Maybe it's the fantasy life they hang on to. Of course that life could include an OP.
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Speed,
Rock bottom is he!! for the person in Mlc. Each person defines hell differently so with each their experience is different. With my J, I found him crawling across the floor, crying, nearly unable to make it to the toilet to vimit the green bloody bile from his body. He made a firm well thought out plan to kill himself at the beginning. That was the beginning of his fall. He had no where to run. All avenues were cut off, all bridges burned. Dying was a valid choice in his mind rather than turning around and facing himself. Then came glimpses at the destruction. Each glimpse came as he tried to get on his feet and crawl up, knocking him down again. Over and over. Each piece came into focus slowly, inch by inch. He peered slowly up to see himself in a mirror and was so confused by what he saw. A caricature of the man he thought he was. That's when the throwing up started. The sleeping. The nightmares. He wouldn't get out of bed. He hid. No showering. Just ate a bit and slept only to be awakened shaking, sweating, confused, body aches, in pain.
Eventually he sought medical help. I suppose I was one of the lucky ones in that all questions were answered during that time as he would talk and talk. But only as much as he could take at the time and only as long as I did not react emotionally. A well placed question or two, lots of nodding, and saying umm hmm, I see and the like. No helping. No cushioning.
Some blow up their careers. Some like J, continue on in their careers for various reasons. J still made parts for NASA during this time. He worked nights and so was alone much of the time.
He had no ow during the end, during the time really bad parts. During one conversation he to told me, "I always knew she would be gone when the money was gone.". And she was. Now years later when he is back on his feet she has tried to reconnect unsuccessfully.
Yes an op can hold things up. An op can be a mother, a family a child,, a well meaning friend as well. It can also be an addiction such as drugs, alcohol, work, whatever.
But in my opinion, the thing that is the surest bet to hold them up on this journey is their spouse standing in the way, trying to help or speed thing along, trying to control the outcome.
LP
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I think maybe the idea is more that OP distracts them rather than props them up.
No need to think about the destruction, the kids, the wife, the life left behind. The distraction helps them to not have to deal with the crushing depression they feel. Hide behind OP and the "happiness" and they don't have to hit rock bottom.
OP is not there to cushion the landing, but rather to prevent them from landing at all.
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I suppose there's some truth to that, Jay.
With my H work was his distraction. He worked so much overtime, even would ask for more overtime. He ran himself ragged working 60/70 hours a week. Then he didn't have time to think. He'd be so exhausted when he got home all he had time for was a meal and go to bed.
When I look back it really was crazy. He works overtime now but NOTHING that isn't normal.
Sorry speed, looks like I railroaded your threat.
Back to rock bottom. :)
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But in my opinion, the thing that is the surest bet to hold them up on this journey is their spouse standing in the way, trying to help or speed thing along, trying to control the outcome.
AMEN to this! Way too true to be missed by anyone!
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But in my opinion, the thing that is the surest bet to hold them up on this journey is their spouse standing in the way, trying to help or speed thing along, trying to control the outcome.
There was an interesting discussion about "no contact" on the forum. Would this be in line with "no contact"? Just removing yourself from the equation?
Thanks for an insightful discussion.
AMEN to this! Way too true to be missed by anyone!
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Yes before this stage the op is there to prevent the fall. Late in Replay she (he) becomes an instrument that helps bring it on in a weird way. So many times the mlcer has become so weakened that the op has taken charge of so much. She now has become so much more in control. So much like his mother perhaps. It is then that she begins propping him up. Enabling him to stay on the edge, not falling. But eventually he sees the jail walls and runs. It is everything he ran from first but on steroids.
There is much difference between mini stages of the Replay and the role of the op in each. In each her role and behaviors change. In so many ways she might like to cushion him but he won't allow it, and its not what she bargained for anyhow. She bargained for a knight in shining armour not a train wreck. He cannot be that anymore. And so down he falls.
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In my opinion:
From my perspective and experience:
No one can help a person go through the stages more quickly but things can gum up the process. Number one thing to gum up the process is the lbs at various points. Yes learn about the process for your own information and understanding. Not in the hopes of cushioning, speeding up, or controlling. Master detachment. If you happen to be around during rock bottom that is absolutely imperative to have as a tool. You can have contact in a detached way. He has to do it alone though. He has to decide to live. To stand up. To look in the mirror. To figure out a way out of the hole. You cannot climb down there to help him. He has to want it, to pay his own price, to become an adult man. Too much help strips him of that opportunity. It takes away his pride in himself. It prevents him from being an adult, a man.
Instead, stand at the top of the hole, moving forward. He has to choose to catch up to the light or wallow in hell. You can't make the decision for him. What is more basic a building block to identity than man versus child? He begins healing there in many ways after hitting rock bottom with this basic building block.
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In my opinion:
From my perspective and experience:
No one can help a person go through the stages more quickly but things can gum up the process. Number one thing to gum up the process is the lbs at various points. Yes learn about the process for your own information and understanding. Not in the hopes of cushioning, speeding up, or controlling. Master detachment. If you happen to be around during rock bottom that is absolutely imperative to have as a tool. You can have contact in a detached way. He has to do it alone though. He has to decide to live. To stand up. To look in the mirror. To figure out a way out of the hole. You cannot climb down there to help him. He has to want it, to pay his own price, to become an adult man. Too much help strips him of that opportunity. It takes away his pride in himself. It prevents him from being an adult, a man.
Instead, stand at the top of the hole, moving forward. He has to choose to catch up to the light or wallow in hell. You can't make the decision for him. What is more basic a building block to identity than man versus child? He begins healing there in many ways after hitting rock bottom with this basic building block.
Well put.
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Thanks, Speed, for posting the question of how rock bottom may manifest itself. I've learned quite a bit from reading the answers provided so far.
I've been pondering the following question:
It sounds to me that an MLCer after hitting rock bottom assumes personal responsibility for the damage they caused and hopefully is a wiser man/woman for the remaining journey in their life. What if this doesn't happen, i.e. they don't assume personal responsibility and make poor choices? Have they not hit rock bottom yet and got stuck in the tunnel? Or, are these personality traits or disorders that were not affected by MLC/rock bottom?
One of my BILs just got married for the second time and seems to set himself and his new wife up for unhappiness. He (now 53) married a woman about 15 years younger than him - she wants a child while he does not. In his first marriage, he left his wife and children, claiming that his children's busy after-school schedule made him an alcoholic. He took a job in another state and moved away (similarly to H, who moved abroad a year ago for a job). He probably hit rock bottom (or several rock bottoms) with his former addiction but I'm not sure how this affected his MLC.
Not assuming personal responsibility and having young partners is also FIL's way of life: After his 1st marriage of 20 years ended (MIL packed a suitcase one day and left, leaving the four children aged about 11-19 behind; lots of cheating on both sides before, possibly both were going through MLC), FIL remarried (one of his OW?). ExW2 was 17 years younger, that marriage lasted seven years (reason why it broke apart: "She was too lenient with her kids, giving them sweets before dinner."; new reason that H heard for the first time last month from FIL: "She cheated."). H told me that FIL was very depressed after his second marriage collapsed (rock bottom?). W3 is about 23 years younger than him and that marriage is not based on love, but on convenience (which, I guess, works for some people).
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Puzzled, that does happen with some MLCer's.
I knew a man who left his wife of many years (good marriage) and never came out of his crisis. Never remarried but had one young gf after another. Last time I saw him (70 years old) he was still drinking, still partying and had a young, drunk thing on his arm.
There is just no hope for him. His XW died a few years back. He'll most likely die while still in his crisis.
I don't think that is the "norm" but it does happen. :-\
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Attaching x
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My question is in regards to Liminality, I have seen many articles including HS that states the MLCr withdraws from everyone and so forth. I guess I am assuming my W is in this stage based on a few things I have observed however she still continues to reach out to me. Has anyone else had this experience in which the MLCr in this stage reaches out. I am not sure if there was a proverbial "Rock Bottom" hit per say but I know there have been indications that she is either reaching or in this Liminality stage. Just pondering I suppose.
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Beacon, i am experiencing something similar. My xw still has om but otherwise has isolated herself. No family, few friends... She has started reaching out and opening up to me weekly. Mostly I just nod and listen, resisting the occasional urge to console or offer advice.
Curious, what is your timeline? We are 26 months post bd.
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I am 28 months post BD. I know it sounds silly but I can tell her state of mind by her FB posts. She hasn't posted very much recently and has been locked up in her house on her days off. She used to post all the time and stuff that would warrant positive attention. I can tell by the things that she says to me that she is not pleased with the state of her financial affairs and the life she is leading (Because she left our home). I do not reach out to her unless it's something silly like a picture of one of our dogs, I usually wait for her to initiate contact and she does quite often. So I am not sure where she is at stage wise and it doesn't matter I suppose just interested if there is still contact with LBS during Liminality.
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Attaching xx