Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: With Gods Help! on April 28, 2013, 04:13:20 PM
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I really enjoyed reading this article..................much of this relates to our H/W whist in MLC..........there is other ones there too...........
http://whatislovedrcookerly.com/816/false-forms-of-love-shadow-side-attachments/ (http://whatislovedrcookerly.com/816/false-forms-of-love-shadow-side-attachments/)
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Awesome article! That really helped me today. Thanks :)
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That one definitely went in my Bookmarks folder. Thank you!
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Excellent -- much food for thought, and a good quote or two when we need it as well!
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Thank you for sharing. It was very helpful for me to read this today. Hugs.
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I loved finding this!! I had actually researched limerance (never even knew the word before this much less what it meant) good Information, Thanks!!
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Hey, thanks for posting this.
Strangely it's the only part of the MLC crisis that makes any kind of sense to me. I can see why our h's and w's are attracted to these people. My h's "friend" is so not his usual type at all. He said to me that she was a female version of him and that's actually correct , the version he really deep down doesn't want to be. The shadow picked like for like.
It's my take on it that when they face the shadow side and the real one emerges again thats when their abhorance rears itself again. This person would then remind them of all the things they did not like about themselves. Just my take.
SD
x
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I think the other person has more to do with the state of our MLCer Anima (the unconscious female inner personality of a man) and Animus (the unconscious male inner personality of a woman) than with the Shadow in itself.
The Shadow will alter the MLCer real Anima/Animus and the other person reflect the current MLCer state. We’re the normal complimentary person of our MLCer. In MLCer the Anima/Animus is imbalanced and that is why the other person often looks like the female/male version of our MLCer.
RCR talks a little about the Anima/Animus in the article about the Shadow: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_shadow.html
For me Limerance is just another name for infatuation.
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http://news.yahoo.com/psychiatric-treatments-may-change-personality-135354106.html
very interesting article
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Very interesting, and I agree somewhat. Some personality theories take into account that personality is fluid and dynamic based on what works or doesn't work in a given situation. I could expand in this but it would be somewhat off-topic. At any rate, if one subscribes to one of these theories then the article would be right in line with that.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/marriage-satisfaction-gene_n_4066028.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce
Short genes, combined with midlife stress equals MLC and infidelity...
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Interesting article.
So in addition to a blood test, you should also check DNA prior to obtaining a marriage license.
Are we pre-programmed for unhappiness. I certainly hate to think so.
I'd like to think we have some choice in the matter of our lives.
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Short genes, combined with midlife stress equals MLC and infidelity...
hahahaaa!! sorry - not to minimize the info here but when i read this quote, i immediately thought of when husband and i first started dating, what irked me about him was his insistence on wearing jeans that were a bit too short. i eventually convinced him that the longer inseam was a better look. my first thought was "holy wow! he was destined to cheat!!!" ok...off to read the article ;D
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I just had my DNA tested so I wonder if they will tell me what I pretty much already know, that I have two long genes, but since I was only 50% of my marriage it didn't count anyways.
Interesting article.
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The article is interesting but... if fails to say that genes alter during our life. Genes alter for many reasons, including the ambient a person lives in.
"Individuals with two short alleles of the gene variant may be like hothouse flower blossoming in a marriage when the emotional climate is good and withering when it is bad,”
There is a "may" there, not a certanty. And have the spouses of everyone here withered when the emotional climate was bad (I'm not taking about MLC)? I doubt. If they always did it we would had noticed.
MLC is not mentioned anywhere in the article so I cannot see how one concludes that two short 5-HTTLPR = MLC. Also, there are people who are tremendously unhappy in their marriages and never have a MLC.
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anjae--You have to extrapolate. What it says is that as we age we are more susceptible to genetic expression, so at the end it does say that at midlife they noticed a greater unhappiness than before--remember this was a longitudinal study.
Further, the people with two short alleles are more susceptible to unhappiness in a poor emotional climate--perhaps caused by the stress of life at midlife--where they may not have faced that before. How many times do we say on here that MLC is OFTEN precipitated by a traumatic event or crisis, or just the adjustment to life--"is this all there is?"
What I would hypothesize is that an R with two dominants or two recessives, all would be hunky dory, but in an R where you have a dominant and a recessive, you might be more likely to have MLC. The dominant is less susceptible to the disharmony--we just kept on keeping on. How many of us admit that things were tough, and maybe we had problems, but they were NORMAL problems? But our recessive MLCers caved...
Think about it, I think it's interesting. Even that there are genes that possibly predict emotional response... I predict a day when Match.com has genetic profiles... Love and light, ll
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I predict a day when Match.com has genetic profiles...
I dont know about match.com but 23andme is already performing DNA evals for $100.00
I just had mine done for ancestry type things, they have all sorts of surveys that you take and I will look into this portion.
Once I get my results it should prove to be interesting.
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http://www.livescience.com/40254-brain-chemicals-guide-attraction.html
scroll down and look for the testosterone info
http://www.livescience.com/12854-love-thee-experts-count-ways.html
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But though personality may drive initial love and attraction, Fisher has found that keeping that loving feeling requires one specific skill: maintaining positive illusions about a loved one, or "the simple ability to overlook everything you cannot stand in someone," she said.
Well I'll tell you what? I overlooked A LOT!!!
My patience finally ran out!!!
And guess what?
All that was left was an illusion of a relationship I thought I had. I was having the relationship IN MY OWN HEAD!
Never gonna do that again.
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But though personality may drive initial love and attraction, Fisher has found that keeping that loving feeling requires one specific skill: maintaining positive illusions about a loved one, or "the simple ability to overlook everything you cannot stand in someone," she said.
This is why love is a choice and not just a feeling. When you CHOOSE to love, the feelings will follow. Too many people let their feelings drive their choices.......
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Bumping this for those who need to know what limerance is xxxxxxxxxxx
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I agree with Anjae that limerance is basically infatuation; it's defined here a bit more "academically", perhaps.
I recognise it -- I remember feeling that way in my mid-20s about a guy, and even saying to myself "I'm so in love I can't see straight". And that really was it -- I couldn't see straight and it wasn't love at all. It still hurt when the relationship didn't really get off the ground, but it taught me something valuable, that that sort of infatuation wasn't the real thing at all.
The shadow side article is good, though, as it explains it clearly and simply. That the attraction is basically not having to live by any rules. I certainly see that in what my H is doing, he's said as much as well -- that the unfettered life is the attraction.
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How come I've only found this thread today? :o :o :o
So, lets see, since "But though personality may drive initial love and attraction, Fisher has found that keeping that loving feeling requires one specific skill: maintaining positive illusions about a loved one, or "the simple ability to overlook everything you cannot stand in someone," she said" and our MLCers are delusional about OW/OM, OW/OM are their true soul mate. Right? Not! ;D ;D ;D
Very interesting articles, FTT.
Found that Coursera has a course called The Addicted Brain https://www.coursera.org/course/addictedbrain Seems interesting but one cannot enroll yet. They don't know when the course will open.
Drugs & the Brain https://www.coursera.org/course/drugsandbrain , that I took last year will have 2 extra weeks in 2014. One for "Drugs for epilepsy and migraine. Drugs for anxiety." and another for "Drugs for psychiatric diseases: Depression, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia. Prospects for better drugs."
We did studied those conditions on last year course but people want to know more about them, and how drugs (meds) can work for them so the professor add those 2 extra weeks. May take the course again next year.
For now I'm having fun with Neuroethics https://www.coursera.org/course/neuroethics it far more than Neuroethics. Hormones, brain chemicals, how certain parts of the brain work under this or that situation. Fascinating stuff.
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LOVE THIS Anjae!
I'm starting Science Communication in a couple of months but I'll look into these other ones also.
I first read about this place from Calamity..I'm so grateful I saw that post!
There's nothing stopping from improving ourselves with the spare time we have!
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Wow that just answered one of my questions. Great articles, thanks.
How did I lose so much love for my h? Simple I lost all respect. How very true. It's impossible to maintain that loving feeling when the blatant disrespect from their actions and behaviours leave you with no respect for them.
I found it interesting about how certain types flock together. I am afraid I am high energy who fell for the analytical testosterone type. Well that's who I thought he was anyway, perhaps not so much.
Geez, we are complex, yet not, if you know what I mean.
Sd
X
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I'm starting Science Communication in a couple of months but I'll look into these other ones also.
So many of us starting new courses. :) What a wonderful thing.
There's nothing stopping from improving ourselves with the spare time we have!
Exactly. We have the time we may do something we want, like and improve our selves with it.
How did I lose so much love for my h? Simple I lost all respect. How very true. It's impossible to maintain that loving feeling when the blatant disrespect from their actions and behaviours leave you with no respect for them.
Yes, when we loose our respect for the MLCer I think we loose our love, or part of the love, for them. We do know they are unwell, we do know it is a crisis and so on but in many cases respect was lost. Can it be earned again? Maybe. But think we will not know that at least until the MLCer is out of Replay.
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Check out the attached article regarding the idea of a spouse never having loved their spouse. It references a study about how people rewrite history during divorce:
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/i-was-never-in-love-with-you-hesaid/
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Wow interesting article about rewriting history...I can certainly vouch that MLCers do that...
It is also interesting how the LBS feels that they have been deceived....
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Interesting article, and I found the comments just as interesting. I'm not sure I agree with the retired Marriage and Family therapist, though, as she seems to not be very pro-marriage event though she does acknowledge the effect on the kids and how it perpetuates into adulthood. Marriage is about honesty and sacrifice, and saying "some marriages need to end" is just listening to the cacophony of voices telling us to "do whatever it takes to be happy." Happiness of the world is never truly found as we will always look for something better once we go down that road. Perhaps that is why most MLCers don't seem happy - they've listened to the world rather than the voice inside themselves. Something to ponder.
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. Marriage is about honesty and sacrifice, and saying "some marriages need to end" is just listening to the cacophony of voices telling us to "do whatever it takes to be happy." Happiness of the world is never truly found as we will always look for something better once we go down that road. Perhaps that is why most MLCers don't seem happy - they've listened to the world rather than the voice inside themselves. Something to ponder.
I couldn't agree more Thundarr.......
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Hi guys,
first posting, I know. Been reading here like forever as a stander (h was a vanisher). Just can't get myself to talk about my situation just yet, sorry. But I feel I need to reply here and hope it's ok, y'all.
The thing is, I've had my reality slap only just recently - and this is MY truth! - when someone on this board stated
(ex) Also said that all the years of being nice and a good husband was just because he thought it was the way he had to be but that he needs to start thinking about himself and not others.
... strangely MLCer's talk a lot about being alone, but SELDOM live alone.
I signed it and turned it round and round in my head and Eureka! that's exaclty what it was with my h that was to chicken to speak up AT ALL, just vanished.
I have finally stopped trying to put squares into circles and realized that I wasn't "The One" as he never ceased telling me (and himself, I guess). I simply was there at the right time at the right place and helped him alter the road from a pretty much hopeless and boring life.
Yes, it is painful. Yes, it is shocking. But, I really, really believe that this is all there is to it.
And all I am clinging on to is the memories of the most wonderful decade I ever had in my life, no matter if and how fabricated it was. I lived it.
Hugs to all.
Hope to the standers and good fortune to those that are moving on.
NL
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Hi Namlover the more you post and get your feelings on the forum the better you will feel about things your not on your own in your grief no more, you have all the wonderful people on this forum who are going through their own personal hell to guide and support you, start in little steps bit by bit and before long you will be able to put down your feelings like the rest of us.
"Yes it's all our fault" as they say but we all know it's them projecting blame for their own shortcomings and you must have had a good marriage as he would not have stayed so long otherwise,
They just flip 180 and destroy everything meaningful and hang out with people like themselves in Mlc low life's and take a very long time to wake up and realise it.
You must work on yourself now and try to detach from the chaos as there is no logic in Mlc and trying to make sense of thinks will cook your brain.
Regards Jackolar been standing 2 years now.
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http://hiqnews.megafoundation.org/2003-9-23_The_Infamous_Midlife_Crisis.html
previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3706.0
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rover77,
That was a great read. It had so much practical information that we have heard before. If only now our MLCers could read and comprehend all this information. But we all know at this time they can barely remember their own name. Thanks for sharing.
Bailmor
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That was really interesting. I wish I could believe that it takes 1-3 years :o
MLC is something that people should be warned about but they probably wouldn't remember it anyway or they would think that it wouldn't happen to them.
I really liked the comment about them finding a hobby - that is my H, I wish he would have stuck to the hobby instead of moving on to an OW.
Thanks for sharing rover77.
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I haven't posted in here for a very long time. I got to the point where it was just too painful. I am at different place now.
I just read this article. Good information. but, truth be told. We all look for articles. Something that we can relate to. Something that is going to explain what has happened to us. We can all find somewhere, if we keep looking hard enough that one article that soothes us, makes us think that were not the ones going crazy. Something we can hang our hopes on.
But, as time goes on (and trust me), it does happen. Where nothing we read answers all our questions. Calms our fears. It's only when we realize that although we may have made a tons of mistakes in our marriage, this is not our fault.
Day by day, you go from knowing this, to doubting yourself. Questions keep coming at you at a fast pace. It is only when we start taking care of yourselves that the true answers come. When we are able to pull ourselves from the floor and start living.
We learn to appreciate what we have, and not what we don't. We learn that we have worth, and that we are capable of amazing things. Love, trust, truth. We stop focusing on our spouses and start focusing on what really counts. Doing the work to make this situation better for you and children if you have them.
When they say there is nothing you can do to speed this up, change their minds. That is the truth. It took me years to get that. Once I did, I stopped hurting and started living. Trust me, I made many, many mistakes along the way. It was when I knew that my marriage was dead, that I began living. The only one that was hurt by those mistakes was me. I still live with my husband and have the whole time. We still sleep in the same bed and he is still in MLC.
But, what made the difference is I let him go. I didn't ask what he was doing or where he was going. I stopped trying to involve myself with his life. We became perfect room mates. I didn't expect anything from him and didn't let him ask anything from me. I knew that being the good wife didn't matter. He didn't notice.
My BD was 3/9/12. He didn't have a physical affair that I know of but, what I did, and how I changed was all about me. Since my changes, and I'm know that in the beginning he didn't trust them, he has become a gentler man. I stopped reminding him of why he hated me. How could he hate someone that never caused him more pain? And in his mind, I was the cause of all the pain. You know they say you get more bees with honey ::) Being the enemy wasn't working for either of us. I stopped complaining, begging, snooping (yes, not my finer moment). All the things all of us do or have done. Think about it, does it do anything? It just reaffirms what they think.
Now, I'm not saying to be a doormat. I didn't do that either. I would just remind him that he lost any right to tell me what he did or didn't want me to do. That he couldn't talk to me in a disrespectful way. I didn't go out of my way to take care of him. If he was around for dinner great, if not oh well. I stopped asking him to do anything. You have to take back your power, what you can control.
I didn't get any of this the first 2 years. The only one that seemed to be hurting was me. So, I asked myself, why. Why do you let this man, who obviously has issues that he has to work out himself, turn you inside out. It made me feel stupid and I'm not stupid but boy, I sure was acting like it.
I don't know why I've become so long winded, something that I usually don't do. But, I guess what I'm trying to say, is reading articles, getting as much knowledge as you can will help. But, it is only after you decide that enough is enough and take your life back that you are really going to be able to heal. To stand back and rationally decide your next move. To make the changes that YOU want to make for YOU. That my friends, is when a peace comes over you that up to that point you haven't felt.
It is liberating and comforting. And though the journey that has been forced upon you is a long one. You are better prepared to deal with what comes next. And there is always something.
The time frame, doesn't matter. No 2 MLC'ers follow the same path. Just find your path and stay on it. Don't let anyone detour you from it.
Finding Hope
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I haven't posted in here for a very long time. I got to the point where it was just too painful. I am at different place now.
You should post more often ;)
When they say there is nothing you can do to speed this up, change their minds. That is the truth. It took me years to get that. Once I did, I stopped hurting and started living. Trust me, I made many, many mistakes along the way. It was when I knew that my marriage was dead, that I began living. The only one that was hurt by those mistakes was me. I still live with my husband and have the whole time. We still sleep in the same bed and he is still in MLC.
Thank you for this - I get very frustrated because it seems that I am the only one hurting and you are right, I cause myself more pain than I should. My H lives at home too and I have a hard time understanding how he can look at me knowing that he has caused so much pain but in his mind he removed himself from the marriage so there shouldn't be any more pain.
But, what made the difference is I let him go. I didn't ask what he was doing or where he was going. I stopped trying to involve myself with his life. We became perfect room mates. I didn't expect anything from him and didn't let him ask anything from me. I knew that being the good wife didn't matter. He didn't notice.
This is where I am stuck. I don't ask him anything about what he is doing or where he is going but he continues to ask me :o Part of me thinks that I should tell it is none of his business but then I am seen as b*tch - I can't win regardless of what I do or don't do.
I don't know why I've become so long winded, something that I usually don't do. But, I guess what I'm trying to say, is reading articles, getting as much knowledge as you can will help. But, it is only after you decide that enough is enough and take your life back that you are really going to be able to heal. To stand back and rationally decide your next move. To make the changes that YOU want to make for YOU. That my friends, is when a peace comes over you that up to that point you haven't felt.
It is liberating and comforting. And though the journey that has been forced upon you is a long one. You are better prepared to deal with what comes next. And there is always something.
Thanks for the long post ;)
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Searching,
I've been there. My husband use to get so mad if I didn't tell him where I was going or what I was doing. Now, I was respectful enough to tell him that I was leaving but, never where. When he would yell at me, I would calmly remind him that it was him that told me we were just room mates. And that I would tell my room mate when I was or wasn't going to be there, where was none of their business. Then I would walk away. He cant expect not to tell you but you tell him. Its how you handle it that matters.
Your right, you cant win so stop trying. A wise women asked me once, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? I chose happy.
It did take him awhile but, he figured it out and started telling me when he went somewhere. Usually as he was walking out the door but it was a start.
I know what your feeling. My husband just told me, when I asked him. Do you know bad you hurt me when you looked me in the face and told me you didn't love me anymore. He said yes, I think about that everyday. But, right now, he doesn't know.
You can hold that against him but, right now it only hurts you, right?
I believe with all my heart that they know later, when they are further along that they know the hurt they have caused. My counselor, who is a smart women told me, if he wanted to leave he would be gone. They don't stay if they really have the urge to go.
Start a journal, write down everything that you feel. It helps. And don't read it everyday (been there). Read it a few months down the line, you will see the slightest changes. In how you handle things.
Pick your words carefully, they remember kindness.
Finding Hope
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It did take him awhile but, he figured it out and started telling me when he went somewhere. Usually as he was walking out the door but it was a start.
He usually tells me except if it involves OW :o
Pick your words carefully, they remember kindness.
Thanks - I try to do this.
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"In a year, the midlife crisis will pass. Then you can make your decisions with the knowledge that you have given your thoughts time to mature."
If only our MLCers crisis would pass within a year... ::) ::) ::)
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I just like the occasional affirmation from outside our little club...and the words of wisdom aren't for us..they are for those on the precipice.
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Thanks Rover for sharing that.
Although the time frames are not as extreme as what we are seeing, the issues are dead on. And, like everything else I have ever read, it seems like eventually the mid life crisis burns itself out and they may want to be home again.
I think that the more different authors who address this issue and the more similarities there are in their findings is very helpful in verifying what we read and hear else where.
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Beautiful post Finding Hope!
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Hello T, missed you.
FH
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Sorry I'm going to be contentious here and say that I found that article a little patronising in places with a few sweeping statements that did not serve to reassure me at all.
Here's four for starters:-
The never married .. "Also among these singles are many homosexuals" What???
The men and women who say, "All the good ones are married", aren't just letting off steam. When you look at the numbers, you realize the grain of truth behind what they're saying.
Do abusive relationships, addictive adultery etc fall into this category?
The overall concept based on the film Scenes from a marriage and "Ruth" suggesting that if you don't take your MLCer back then you will end up lonely and unmarried.
After a few years, you simply lose interest in contemplating your midlife crisis, and you move on to more worthwhile topics.
MLC is not something that the MLCer "loses" interest in. The above comment makes the process seem whimsical and just something you pick up like a hobby that you stop because it gets boring.
Talking of hobbies....Hobbies are not always something that you start at midlife.. My H's rather expensive hobbies (flying and sailing) have been with him since I met him - he just chose to spend that time with someone else. We also shared other hobbies which TBH since BD have kept me going.
Sorry - whilst there are some good points here re the destruction of the family - I am not particularly taken with this article. That's my personal opinion.
However, I do recommend that it is read so that it adds to inform - that's the beauty of all the articles, podcasts and websites we share on here; they help inform us and help us to make better decisions.
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For me the article is simplistic. The person who wrote it seems to think it is possible to address those, like Rover put it, on the precipice. If it was none of us would be here. Also, stating that MLC lasts 1-3 years and then it is over, or that in 1 year the person in crisis realises what they have done and gets its act together is simplifying something that is much more difficult and complex. Let alone stating that it only happen to those in their forties.
After what you wrote, Songanddance went back and reread the article.
The never married .. "Also among these singles are many homosexuals" What???
Right, what?... Plus, some people never marry but have a lifelong partner. Also, is the person who wrote the article unaware of same sex marriages?...
The men and women who say, "All the good ones are married", aren't just letting off steam. When you look at the numbers, you realize the grain of truth behind what they're saying.
Do abusive relationships, addictive adultery etc fall into this category?
Probably...
The overall concept based on the film Scenes from a marriage and "Ruth" suggesting that if you don't take your MLCer back then you will end up lonely and unmarried.
Since Scenes from a Marriage is a film directed by Bergman, a man that married 5 times and end up divorced 4 (his fifth wife died) and was a certified cheater, it is a little odd to use him and one of his films/TV series in an article about the defense of family. I had to re-watch Scenes from a Marriage to my Scandinavian Film and Television course. If I remember correctly the two main characters remarry other people. At least in the series version they do.
After a few years, you simply lose interest in contemplating your midlife crisis, and you move on to more worthwhile topics.
MLC is not something that the MLCer "loses" interest in. The above comment makes the process seem whimsical and just something you pick up like a hobby that you stop because it gets boring.
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Yes, it does make the process seem whimsical. But the same happens with Jung's theory of self, separation, rebirth and reintegration. If one reads it, it is beautiful. I knew Jung's theory but never in a million years thought it translate to what we deal with.
No hobbies are not something one only starts at midlife but it is true some MLCer pick totally new dead expensive or insane hobbies.
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No hobbies are not something one only starts at midlife but it is true some MLCer pick totally new dead expensive or insane hobbies.
Does the OW count as a hobby? ;) totally new, dead expensive and insane!
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Finding hope,
This is only the second time in 3 1/2 years that I read something that made sense to me. Thank you
I have read and read and read everything I could about MLC.
My X was always so different from most I couldn't relate to the things I read from other people. He was never nasty or mean or found an ow, but his words and actions were very similar.
He had the script down in many ways but still was different.
I found an article about Low-Energy MLCers about a year ago and I FNALLY could relate to something.
It fit him like a glove. His crisis was more of a fantasy. He saw his fantasy life as real. (hard to explain).
Anyway, all that you said in your posted response was very valuable to me.
My X found it very important to divorce me and attain his "freedom" but he has yet to enjoy it.
I have changed so much over this time. I have gained strength and like who I have become.
My life is fuller now.
I spend time with my X now and see he is happy to be with me. His fantasy life is getting farther and farther down the road, even though he clings to it.
I still love him but I now know if he chooses to keep going down the path he chose 3 plus years ago I will be ok. I'm not waiting any more.
So thank you for our post.
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Thunder,
Look at me growing up. ::) :P Good to hear from you.
FH
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No hobbies are not something one only starts at midlife but it is true some MLCer pick totally new dead expensive or insane hobbies.
Does the OW count as a hobby? ;) totally new, dead expensive and insane!
Of course! ;) ;D ;D ;D
Thunder, some MLCers do not show the signs most MLCers exhibit. Maybe they are having a difficult mid life transition rather than a MLC, maybe they are on the milder spectrum of MLC.
The time frame, doesn't matter. No 2 MLC'ers follow the same path. Just find your path and stay on it. Don't let anyone detour you from it.
True, not two MLCers follow the same path and each of us has to find our own path. However the time frame matters. It is not the same having a MLCer returning to what they were in 2, 3 or 4 years or having a MLCer that 5,6, 7 or more years into replay keeps getting worse and worse.
If one is dealing with the latter we will have changed so much and, in many cases, be apart from them for so many years that MLCer and LBS may totally lost any common ground. Not to mention all the damage the later type inflicts to themselves, spouse, children, finances, marriage, you name it.
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Anjae,
I totally agree that by the time the journey is at its end, or the LBS has reached a certain point and the MLC'er is still trapped in the tunnel, the needs and wants of the LBS may have changed and the LBS and spouse are no longer needing or wanting the same things.
The time frame, for me at least. Did more damage to my thinking then it helped. Since no 2 MLC'ers paths are the same, it must be that no 2 MLC'ers time frames are the same.
I think some hold onto the time frames of the journey and that it gives them false hope. It did me. I was like OK, he's been into this for this amount of time, so he MUST be here. Only to realize he wasn't.
I threw the time frame out the window. The steps were more important. Realizing how he was acting in regards to the stages were waaaaaaaaaay more helpful then the weeks, months, or years. Of course, I'm just talking about what worked and didn't work for me.
I believe that my husband is in a midlife transition, and has not crossed over to full blown MLC, and though very slowly, is coming around. But, I've been at this long enough to know not to hang my hat on that.
So, our journeys continue. My only HOPE, is that when we each reach the fork of the road, we are there together and continue to journey together.
FH
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The timeframe are a guideline but I agree that the stages are (or can be) more useful. When Mr J crisis started I did not knew what he was suffering from, let alone about timeframes. I found the forum at some point in 2011 and only started to post mid 2011. By then years had passed, now more years went by. Mr J remains where he was: at the nightclub = in Replay.
No two MLCers paths are alike, no two timeframes are alike but as with everything there are averages. Most MLCers fall within the average, some lean towards the lower end of the average and a few go way beyond the average. Of those some have long been divorced from the LBS, others, for a number of reasons, remain married to the LBS even if we had not seen them in years (last time I saw mine was 6 years ago).
It ends up being a bit silly and weird to be married to a completely absent person.
As with everything else when dealing with a spouse in MLC we take what serves us and leave what doesn't.
A midlife transition also isn't a picnic in the park, thing I'm going though one myself and it is a very, very strange place to be. However it differs from the full blow crisis, one if far more aware of things than during a full blown crisis. At least that is my personal experience, so, again, it will be different for every person.
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Another interesting article by Rick Reynolds.
https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/infidelity-betrayed-spouse-were-they-thinking-of-me?utm_source=Article+of+the+Week&utm_campaign=0b41337940-aotw_05_28_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ba782628b7-0b41337940-312831325
“What were you thinking? Did you even consider the consequences? I just don’t understand how you do this without thinking at all of me and the kids!” Carol’s eyes burned into Tim like lasers. Tim, her unfaithful spouse, hung his head, avoiding her gaze. "I don't know," he stammered. "Liar!" she screamed. Carol and Tim came to see me after his four month affair with a co-worker. Discovery had occurred when the two of them were rearranging their living room furniture. Tim handed his phone to Carol while he moved the couch. That's the moment when Ann's text popped up saying, "Love U. Can you drop by?" Carol stared at the phone in disbelief. Tim saw the look on her face and asked what was wrong. She held the phone up revealing the text. At first Tim lied saying it was nothing, then he claimed they were just friends, but once she discovered his secret email account, he had no choice but to come clean.
From the beginning, Tim told her it was just a fling and meant nothing, but that only inflamed Carol's anger. Was he willing to put her at risk and lose his family over something that meant nothing? He had written Ann telling her he loved his wife and that it was over, but that offered little relief to Carol, who was triggered each day he left for work. He had fooled her before; how could she know if he was telling the truth now?
Tim begged her not to leave and swore it was over. He agreed to whatever she wanted if only she'd give him a chance. She wanted answers and she wanted them to get help. That's how they ended up in my office. Carol just couldn't get her mind around it. They had a good marriage and she'd been a great wife; why hadn't that been enough? What was missing? What could lead Tim to risk it all for some fling that allegedly meant nothing?
"Didn't you even think of me?" she asked Tim. The tension in my office was uncomfortable to say the least. "Do you really want know the truth?" I asked. I turned my gaze to Tim, "Do you mind if I tell her, and you can correct me if I'm wrong?" He nodded his head in consent. "When he was with his AP he rarely thought of you, but what's probably more painful is the fact that when he was at home he frequently escaped by thinking of his AP.” "Why?" she cried, "Is that true?" she demanded, looking at Tim. "He's right."
Before I go on with this article I'd ask you the same question, do you really want to understand the dynamics of infidelity? For most betrayed spouses it's difficult to accept their mate's explanation because of what we call "assumed similarities." We can only judge or understand another's motives by what it would mean if we did the same thing. For instance, if you're not prone to pain avoidance it might be difficult to understand why some people drink. Part of the danger in writing this newsletter is my use of stereotypes and generalities. Please remember to take the best and leave the rest. FINALLY, I AM NOT CONDONING OR EXCUSING ANYONE'S INFIDELITY BY THIS EXPLANATION. I only hope to help with perspective on what was going on for some people. Genuinely understanding what was going on in the mind of an unfaithful spouse can help bring clarity, healing and peace of mind, if used properly.
I have been in this field a long time and have seen over 3,000 couples, and a majority of the unfaithful spouses I work with have reported thinking about their affair partner (AP) when they were with their mate, but rarely thinking about their mate when with the AP. One person said there were times she thought of her mate when with her AP, but she only focused on the things she disliked to help push her guilt away.
While this may be disturbing to the betrayed spouse, I believe it helps explain a dynamic frequently present in unfaithful spouses. Affairs, as well as many other acts of infidelity, often serve as an escape. They provide a distraction, allowing the unfaithful spouse to escape the realities of life. Unfortunately, in that moment little or no thought is given to the impact of their actions, they are solely focused on what they stand to gain (escape, approval, affection, etc.). Rarely does anyone consider why they are doing what they're doing; typically their only thought is, "I'll never get caught." They don't consider what it must inevitably cost their mate, or what they could do to improve their already existing relationship since they are only thinking of themselves.
When it comes to relationships, it's impossible to find someone capable of meeting all your needs or someone whose needs you can fully meet. You may love your mate and be content in the relationship, but we are two separate individuals making sacrifices and compromising to live life together. For many it's the fact they've given so much that makes them value their marriage.
If, however, we are under-invested, then we won't value the relationship to the same degree. With a lack of value comes a lack of motivation to protect and work through the difficulties of marriage. Instead of maintaining an attitude of love and caring concern as we vowed to do, we betray ourselves - abandoning love and become self-consumed. Whatever captures our attention captures us, and as we focus on our mate's failures we lose sight of how we are failing our mate and family. Misery is increased as we focus on what is lacking rather than the blessings we have. We move into self-deception, extolling our virtues, minimizing our faults and falsely believing we deserve better.
If life is viewed through that kind distorted lens it's tempting to start dreaming of something different as a way of escape. It's interesting how easily we're deceived into thinking our problems will be solved by a change in circumstances. Sadly nothing could be further from the truth. External fixes rarely work. The only type of baggage that never gets lost in transit is our personal baggage. That baggage never fails to show up at the new address.
It may be hard to fathom, but many unfaithful spouses don't want to leave their marriage, but they do try escaping their reality (at the expense of their mate) through the activities of their secret life. If they are trying to escape reality through the illusions created by their extra-marital activities, why would they want to burst the fantasy bubble by thinking about their mate? Thinking of their marriage only destroys the illusion and kills the secondary gain of their fantasy. Why not think of your affair partner when at home if it represents the drug you use to escape reality?
Fantasy is the window to our soul. The illusions we create through fantasy and acting out reveal what's broken about us, not what's wrong with our mate. Much of recovery is based learning to see our own defects rather than those of our mate. It's based on learning to see how our actions impact others rather than focusing on how our mate affects us. It's learning to make the best with what we have rather than fantasizing about different circumstances to make things better. It's about learning how to give rather than take.
Eventually Tim came to see his patterns of self-deception and avoidance. He actually began investing in the relationship rather than leaving that sort of thing to his wife. Carol finally came to understand it wasn't about her. Not that she was perfect, even though they both felt she was above average. As she came to understand the ‘why’ behind Tim's actions she began to have hope that things could change. As she witnessed his efforts to address his personal issues she developed a confidence that things would be different. Tim’s efforts to understand what he'd done to her helped her see that he cared. Finally, his commitment to help her heal revealed he was finally thinking about someone besides himself.
If you're still searching for why, maybe this helps give insight. As I said before, the above mentioned explanation in no way excuses betrayal, however I do hope it serves as a reminder that great relationships aren't based on right circumstances; rather they are largely dependent on choosing to be the right person.
If you've betrayed your mate click here to register for Hope for Healing. As you work through the material, you'll learn how to get out of yourself and begin to be a person you can respect. If you've been betrayed and it just doesn't make sense, register for Harboring Hope. It will give you a path to healing. Don't make emotional decisions; instead get the information needed to find what you're truly looking for.
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Great article, thanks for posting!
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Stillpraying,
Thank you, thank you, thank you! That was so worth reading!
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Fantasy is the window to our soul. The illusions we create through fantasy and acting out reveal what's broken about us, not what's wrong with our mate. Much of recovery is based learning to see our own defects rather than those of our mate. It's based on learning to see how our actions impact others rather than focusing on how our mate affects us. It's learning to make the best with what we have rather than fantasizing about different circumstances to make things better. It's about learning how to give rather than take.
Thanks Stillpraying ;)
This part stood out to me the most.
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Thanks, SP. It was good to read that, as I'm struggling to believe, after 3 years, that a) this wasn't about me and b) that the escapist relationship with OW is unlikely to succeed.
This is something from it that I will always remember and quote a lot:
"The illusions we create through fantasy and acting out reveal what's broken about us, not what's wrong with our mate. Much of recovery is based learning to see our own defects rather than those of our mate. It's based on learning to see how our actions impact others rather than focusing on how our mate affects us. It's learning to make the best with what we have rather than fantasizing about different circumstances to make things better. It's about learning how to give rather than take."
And,
"great relationships aren't based on right circumstances; rather they are largely dependent on choosing to be the right person."
What a comfort!
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UK and Searching....that stood out to me also. :) :)
Hugs,
SP
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hen it comes to relationships, it's impossible to find someone capable of meeting all your needs or someone whose needs you can fully meet. You may love your mate and be content in the relationship, but we are two separate individuals making sacrifices and compromising to live life together. For many it's the fact they've given so much that makes them value their marriage.
If, however, we are under-invested, then we won't value the relationship to the same degree. With a lack of value comes a lack of motivation to protect and work through the difficulties of marriage.
This stood out to me, because omg, it's so true about my relationship.
I own the house where we lived. I handled all the bills. I took care of the cooking, cleaning, tidying. I gave up my life in London and shipped all my stuff back to go live with him and start a life together! (not even 6 months before his crisis).
What did he invest? Nothing. He was just kind of there, floating along. He didn't make any sacrifices. Never helped in the house. Didn't even pick up after himself. Didn't make concrete plans for the future. Spent his time playing videogames, watching tv, sleeping... in total selfishness.
It was always all about him. Tbh now I don't understand if this is connected to MLC, or if he's just an immature boy who doesn't know what it means to take responsibility for his own life, let alone for others.
I also took care of my sick grandma, sorted out the mess left behind by my junkie stepfather, handled my studies, my life alone in London... he couldn't even keep his papers in order, just lost them around the house. I can take responsibility for myself, and am now at the point where I'm strong and responsible enough to help others when they need. He never had to deal with a single thing in his life...
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this article was very good. I realized why my ex is trying so hard to "impress" his children. The OW is considered the "family counselor" other woman. Early on in our break up my ex try to explain to me why he understood what I was going thru because the ow stated to him that I was losing him and I was acting out. Really? Well now she has him full time and now she will have to analyze him as to why he is such an butt!! God will take care of him and the family counselor OW. They both deserve each other!!
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I own the house where we lived. I handled all the bills. I took care of the cooking, cleaning, tidying. I gave up my life in London and shipped all my stuff back to go live with him and start a life together! (not even 6 months before his crisis).
What did he invest? Nothing. He was just kind of there, floating along. He didn't make any sacrifices. Never helped in the house. Didn't even pick up after himself. Didn't make concrete plans for the future. Spent his time playing videogames, watching tv, sleeping... in total selfishness.
It was always all about him. Tbh now I don't understand if this is connected to MLC, or if he's just an immature boy who doesn't know what it means to take responsibility for his own life, let alone for others.
Dagolark -
I could have written every one of those words! This journey has helped me to see how little he was invested and now I want more.
I don't question MLC much anymore - yes my H has always been a bit emotionally immature but that is why we are here now. He has to learn how to grow up. One of the things that makes me so angry is that H will sacrifice things for the OW that he never did for me! What this has taught is that H is capable if he wants it - H is going to have to do a whole lot for me to consider a relationship with him again.
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It makes me wonder whether I'm to blame for this. If I had demanded more... if I hadn't just taken care of everything... if I hadn't made everything so easy for him... if I'd put him in the position to have to make an effort, if I'd made him fight for things...
But on the other hand that feels so weird. A relationship shouldn't be about power games, right?
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It makes me wonder whether I'm to blame for this. If I had demanded more... if I hadn't just taken care of everything... if I hadn't made everything so easy for him... if I'd put him in the position to have to make an effort, if I'd made him fight for things...
But on the other hand that feels so weird. A relationship shouldn't be about power games, right?
I have had those thoughts too - we are not to blame for this. What if's do us no good. I did what I felt was right for my relationship at the time. I invested more than he did and because I love him unconditionally - I didn't see anything wrong with this. Our relationship was unbalanced - this was both of our doing but I didn't cause him to go off the MLC deep end. I see it for what it was now and I won't go there again.
I hope that my H can finally grow up and be a balanced person. It takes two balanced people to have a balanced relationship.
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hen it comes to relationships, it's impossible to find someone capable of meeting all your needs or someone whose needs you can fully meet. You may love your mate and be content in the relationship, but we are two separate individuals making sacrifices and compromising to live life together. For many it's the fact they've given so much that makes them value their marriage.
If, however, we are under-invested, then we won't value the relationship to the same degree. With a lack of value comes a lack of motivation to protect and work through the difficulties of marriage.
This stood out to me, because omg, it's so true about my relationship.
I own the house where we lived. I handled all the bills. I took care of the cooking, cleaning, tidying. I gave up my life in London and shipped all my stuff back to go live with him and start a life together! (not even 6 months before his crisis).
What did he invest? Nothing. He was just kind of there, floating along. He didn't make any sacrifices. Never helped in the house. Didn't even pick up after himself. Didn't make concrete plans for the future. Spent his time playing videogames, watching tv, sleeping... in total selfishness.
It was always all about him. Tbh now I don't understand if this is connected to MLC, or if he's just an immature boy who doesn't know what it means to take responsibility for his own life, let alone for others.
I also took care of my sick grandma, sorted out the mess left behind by my junkie stepfather, handled my studies, my life alone in London... he couldn't even keep his papers in order, just lost them around the house. I can take responsibility for myself, and am now at the point where I'm strong and responsible enough to help others when they need. He never had to deal with a single thing in his life...
I think many people have this revelation. Bit of a wake up call... It really is true if you don't invest in something it's easier to walk away.. So sad really. When we start a relationship we trust that we BOTH will invest in it...
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=483.90
I was reading the thread of Stayed H's letter and on this page they are discussing the very same thing. Ha.
Well, I guess being an independent woman used to live on her own and sort everything out for herself didn't pair well with an italian boy who's always been living with mommy until he moved in with me...
And of course now he's back at mommy's, who cooks and cleans and irons and changes the bedsheets for him (like he expected me to do for him), so I doubt he'll notice what he'd been taking for granted... because mommy will keep providing it to him till he's fricking 40 years old.
Ugh. No more boys living with mommy, I SWEAR.
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who cooks and cleans and irons and changes the bedsheets for him (like he expected me to do for him),
Was this a stated expectation from him. Did he actually ever say " I expect you to cook, clean, iron and change the bedsheets/"
or did you just do it because as an enabler it's what you expected of yourself and you put that expectation in his mind.
We've all been there but I did leave my first H when he continued to moan that despite my working a full time job, he did expect dinner to be cooked by me and ready by 6pm. That wasn't the only reason we broke up (I was 24 at the time and he was 32) but it dawned on me that he was expecting me to be like his mother.
However did I learn from that? Heck no - not until 26 yrs later when BD happened and then cooking, washing, changing bed linen etc went out of the window. Those were tasks I willingly took on because I thought that was what you were supposed to do and I was the world's best enabler.
Now I think differently. H still in the home but does his own washing, cooking etc....
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(I'm sorry dear, I went on a bit of a ramble because... well, I'm a chatty person and I'm doing some serious analyzing of the relationship these days... sorry!)
Well, not as explicitly as a friend of mine was told by her boyfriend - "Well my mother did it for me so now you have to do it" (he's from Southern Italy and they're even more traditional in that sense). [He made her miserable for a long time, they broke up and she came to London, eventually he came crawling back and now they're living in London, pretty happily from what I can tell!]
But we kind of had this agreement that since I work from home and he's away all day, I would take care of the house and in exchange he would pay a slightly bigger share of common expenses. To be honest I don't think we ever sat down and actually verbalized it in these terms, but we did drop a few comments to that extent. It actually did seem fair to me, to be honest? I knew how to do that stuff after all, and he took care of the bigger things - like he's built all the IKEA furniture we bought, installed the dishwasher and boiler, changed the ceiling lamps, sinks, etc... because that's his skill and not mine. I honestly thought it was a fair split of responsibilities? I wasn't resentful (for now at least....) I was happy to do it.
And yet at times it felt like living with a frickin teenager... like, he would always leave all of his shoes by the kitchen table when he took them off instead of putting them in the shoerack literally two steps away. I asked him to please sort it out and he would say yes and then avoid doing it... just like a teenager, lol! Eventually he did it, or I took them and placed them in the middle of the hallway so after stepping over them five times he would eventually put them away. Lately I had given up and just picked them up myself because tbh I didn't much care anymore, it just took me a second anyway.... but that is not the behavior of an adult. It's a teenager.
(Esp. considering he spent his time listening to loud music and playing videogames and barely even bothered to talk to me lately. I had been telling him, previous to BD, that I felt like we communicated more when I was in London than now that we shared a house - at least back then when we skyped for an hour I had his whole attention and he actually talked to me, when I was home for a few weeks it wasn't 'everyday life routine'...)
Same for his work boots - there was a pair lying in a corner in the living room for months. When I asked whether they were going to stay there forever, he just made a funny joke and carried on doing whatever. Eventually when he was carrying some stuff to the garage I added the shoes to the pile and they were finally gone ;)
Or another classic... his clothes. The wardrobe is apparently a foreign concept, he just piles everything up on a chair or on the floor. It's a bit of a habit of mine too, tbh, so at some point I would just say 'let's sort out our chairs, shall we?' and we would do it together.
I'm trying to think of how things went during the few months he lived there alone before I joined him (he'd been nagging since he was in his 20s about wanting to move out but moaning he couldn't afford it and had to wait till we moved in together. (Now mind you, he actually COULD afford it, it's just a hassle...) So eventually I offered him to stay for free at my house since we were going to be there together soon anyway, so he could save on rent. But anyway... he did do the washing and hang things out to dry (he needed those clothes for his work after all!) and very precisely and diligently, as always when he does something (he's an electrician and plumber so he's meticulous). He did pile up dishes in the sink till it exploded but then was very precise in using the dishwasher. But he wasn't big on taking out the trash (a million beer bottles accumulated...), sweeping, cleaning the counters, or god forbid the bathroom (when he was working at the coal plant everything turned black with coal dust.) I had suggested he hire for an hour or two the lady that helps my grandma with the cleaning, but he never got around to it (too much hassle) so occasionally his mom popped over and cleaned the place. They also invited him to dinner twice a week or so. She ironed his clothes and gave them back to him.
It's quite clear he was doing just the bare minimum and once I arrived, it quickly vanished... lol.
He has, after all, lived with mum until he was 30/31, a stay-at home mum... she did pick up after him but after her depression a few years back she's become very disorganized and a bit of a hoarder. Her room and the room where Ex and his sister grew up are literally invaded by clothes, piled up all over the place. And there are big closets, but I have no idea if they are empty or filled with even more unused clothes, because they are blocked by the piles?
Funnily enough, after BD (but before I learned about OW) I talked to him and he was saying he'd been asking about some houses, they were like 350€ a month, interesting, and one of them was this big and in that place and the guy might want to sell it too... and inside my head I was thinking: so a year ago you couldn't afford to rent your own place, but now you magically can and you can also buy a house all of a sudden? O.o And the next time I spoke with him instead, when I asked him how he was, he said: 'well I have the prospect of furnishing my own house and that cheers me up... but all the houses I've seen are so expensive, like 350€, no way I can afford them:(!'........................ so.... you WANT to have your own house but in front of the practical reality of it, you're already backing off? Tbh I'm curious to know whether he will actually go through with it or not... it was easy to move into my place, no contracts, no dealing with the bills and the contracts for those, no rent...
(He really cannot deal with any hassle at all. His old boss still owes him about 5K € and he hasn't done anything to try and get it back, even tho he really just needs to go speak to the worker's union and let them handle it. He sends his dad to handle things when need be. How sad is that?)
And the buying a house thing, that's a big issue too, because you see, he's the male son. Both him and his father kept saying that it was important for him to own a house. We were talking of maybe buying a house together (I have some money stashed away for that purpose from when my dad passed away) and he was saying stuff that made no sense, like he wanted to own a property on his own, maybe he could buy an apartment and rent it out and I could buy the house where we would live... O.o? And funnily enough, his sister is living in a house owned by the husband, she's unemployed and she and the baby are supported by the husband, but nobody is telling her she needs to own a property... ah, Italy!
....to be honest I don't really know where I'm going with all this, lol, I'm just thinking out loud I guess. I'm not sure how it works that this kind of stuff pushes a guy to have an affair? More like, perhaps it highlights a character flaw that is compatible with having affairs?
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http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2013/01/man-cheats-infidelity-why-reasons.html
I'm pasting the bits that are relevant to us, but there's more reasons listed...
Three Stages of Love
Eros Love (Romantic Love)
This is the stage of love often referred to as "in love." This is the stage when the human brain is actually producing a chemical effect that's akin to drug addiction. The chemicals produced are dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin (the 3 that produce the "high"), oxytocin and vasopressin (the two "bonding" chemicals), nerve growth factor (the "attachment"), testosterone and estrogen (the "hormones").
And here's an interesting tidbit, ladies. (And it's also the reason that "no contact" is incredibly valuable to women in particular.) Did you know that the events occurring in the brain when we are in love have similarities with mental illness? Did you know that the effects of serotonin on the brain have a similar chemical appearance to the mental illness known as obsessive-compulsive disorder? And did you know that the brain only produces these chemicals for an average of two years in both males and females?
Can anyone say "infatuation?"
Philos Love (Child Rearing/Friendship Love)
This is the "settling in" stage of love when romance tends to take a back seat and child rearing, family and friendship between the couple tends to take a front seat.
This is also the stage when cheating has the highest rate of occurrence. The brain is no longer producing the chemicals referenced above and the woman has had her attention diverted from the man - to her newborn children who have a much higher need for her love, attention and affection. If there are no children produced from the relationship, fractures can easily happen during this stage because there's no assistance with the chemical production produced during the romantic stage, referenced above.
Can anyone say, "in a rut?"
Agape (Unconditional/Companion Love)
Once a couple reaches this stage, they're generally out of the woods, so-to-speak. They love each other unconditionally, warts and all. They are getting ready to enjoy their golden years and are looking forward to growing old together, settling into retirement and welcoming grandchildren into their lives.
Can anyone say, "happily ever after?"
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Why A Man Cheats
He's Insecure
If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times - insecure men cheat. They just do; whether they love you or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, research suggests that most men who cheat claim they still love the woman in their life. And that's because insecurity is a "me" issue, not a "we" issue.
When someone secretly doesn't feel good about themselves, they seek out activities that remedy this. And nothing remedies ill feelings about yourself faster than the attentions and affections of a new lover. Additionally, folks who are insecure are generally equally selfish. As a result, they don't think about "others," they think about "self." Add to that the fact that they tend to focus on "rewards" versus "consequences."
It's a recipe for disaster.
And it's one of the main reason that I warn women dealing with insecure men to really think long and hard about what you're signing on for there. On top of what's referenced above, insecure men tend to enjoy tinkering with the heads and emotions of the woman in their life. They're not good communicators and, as a result, they won't sit down to talk. Instead, they'll pull pranks and play silly "push your button" games. Why? To get a reaction from you. Because if you didn't care, you wouldn't react. So when an insecure man wants reassured that his partner still cares, he won't ask her. Instead, he'll pull a prank that hurts her and then he'll sit back and watch her reaction. Insecure men/women will suck the life out of you and exhaust you - FAST.
Interesting fact: Only 12% of men feel the woman they cheated with was more attractive than their partner.
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He's Trying to "Fix" Things
I know. You just read that and said, "Huh?" Let me explain. Men can fix a car, a broken railing, a crack in the sidewalk. But when it comes to their relationships and their emotions, they can't easily fix themselves. As a result, many tend to hang on to what does work, what doesn't need fixed (which may be the wife or girlfriend) and simply resort to plugging the holes they feel inside themselves with extracurricular activities outside of the marriage - to make themselves feel whole again.
Men feel entitled to "have it all." As a result, many will attempt to do just that - take on a mistress to make the longing subside and then live happily ever after, having it all - with their wife AND their mistress.
What better way to feel fulfilled, content and "fixed" - without ever having to confront the real issues?
Interesting fact: 48% of men state emotional dissatisfaction as the cause of their cheating.
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Noticing a Theme Here?
In just about every single one of the scenarios above, notice that none of them were a direct reflection on the woman. Notice that just about every single one of them is a reflection on the man. Even in the scenario where a man might be hurt by the woman for one reason or another, it's still his CHOICE to conduct an affair rather than WORK out the issues.
“I'm going to take the high road because the low road is so crowded.” ~ Mia Farrow
Cheating is a choice, folks.
And when men decide to cheat, they make those choices based on what's going on inside of THEM - not based on what the woman is or isn't doing. Sure, they use the behavior of the woman as an excuse or justification for their behavior, but the simple fact of the matter is that most men use cheating as a means of coping. Coping with stress, anxiety, dissatisfaction, unhappiness, past traumas and childhood experiences and self esteem issues. Cheating occurrences for reasons of sex alone are actually very low.
Interesting fact: Only 8% of men who cheat claim sexual dissatisfaction as the reason.
Much like folks use alcohol, tobacco, drugs and gambling as coping mechanisms, many men also choose to use cheating much the same. "If I just do this, then I'll forget about all of that and this will go away."
But the reality appears to be that it boils down to choice and an inability to cope, emotionally, with issues of success, dissatisfaction, past experience, peer pressure, temptation, relationship problems and feelings of self worth.
Now this may sound sexist and I understand why. But realize that what I'm about to say isn't based on my past experiences, it's based on the insights contained in the statistics and the psychology behind what motivates men to cheat versus what motivates women to cheat. Which I believe reveals that when you have a man that's cheating, you appear to have a broken man. Whereas, when you have a woman that's cheating, you appear to have an unloved, neglected woman.
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You quoted from the article
Whereas, when you have a woman that's cheating, you appear to have an unloved, neglected woman
I think that the LBS men on this site would find the above comment to be grossly untrue. MLC trumps this type of generalization.
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Yeah, you're absolutely right. I actually hadn't really noticed that bit - I just copied the whole paragraph. I think pretty much all of this article could apply for both genders, even though the author wrote it about men. Obviously I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't really believe there is a marked difference between 'this is how MEN work' and 'this is how WOMEN work'. I think the same dynamics can apply to all humans regardless of gender.
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This describes my husband to a T! He even said part of that today, it had nothing to do with not wanting you. I was unhappy.....end of discussion. So instead of trying to find out WHY he was unhappy (he has already said it wasn't me) he ran away and cheated.
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I think I missed this one but I seems that mlc might have been proven scientifically?
http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/mid-life-crisis-is-real-study-finds-1.1737826 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/mid-life-crisis-is-real-study-finds-1.1737826)
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Well, it might be real but none of our spouses have it! ;D
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;D
My W thinks that she will never suffer from depression, says that she is "immune" ???
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Well, it might be real but none of our spouses have it! ;D
That's too FUNNY! ;D ;D
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Well, it might be real but none of our spouses have it! ;D
LMAO Bipolared, yeah mine says "there is nothing wrong with me"......Okay ::)
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Well, it might be real but none of our spouses have it! ;D
OMG! I just shot soda out of my nose! That's the best laugh I've had all week!
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Well, it might be real but none of our spouses have it! ;D
OMG! I just shot soda out of my nose! That's the best laugh I've had all week!
You are so right it is funny! It it were so no more truth darts needed!!
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Well, I don't know how to copy that quote as the others did but I had the same reaction to it!
This is hilarious Bipolared! ROFLMAO ::) ;)
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Really interesting article and insightful into the mind of a MLCer, although if I'm honest, I have no desire anymore to get into H's mind...he can keep it all to himself!
Love & light
Venus
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Great article SP, thanks for posting.
This stood out to me, because omg, it's so true about my relationship.
I own the house where we lived. I handled all the bills. I took care of the cooking, cleaning, tidying. I gave up my life in London and shipped all my stuff back to go live with him and start a life together! (not even 6 months before his crisis).
What did he invest? Nothing. He was just kind of there, floating along. He didn't make any sacrifices. Never helped in the house. Didn't even pick up after himself. Didn't make concrete plans for the future. Spent his time playing videogames, watching tv, sleeping... in total selfishness.
It was always all about him. Tbh now I don't understand if this is connected to MLC, or if he's just an immature boy who doesn't know what it means to take responsibility for his own life, let alone for others.
I also took care of my sick grandma, sorted out the mess left behind by my junkie stepfather, handled my studies, my life alone in London... he couldn't even keep his papers in order, just lost them around the house. I can take responsibility for myself, and am now at the point where I'm strong and responsible enough to help others when they need. He never had to deal with a single thing in his life...
Dagolark, I'm not familiar with your story, but MLC is when previously responsible and dedicated men do a complete 180 and morph into aliens with extreme changes in morality, personality, responsibility, and regression of maturity.
Your description above sounds like a man who always struggled with responsibility.
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Just for kicks. Thoughts?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/midlife-crisis/
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I think that on a site that tries to explain the theory behind MLC, the psychological factors, the destruction of families and several other very serious issues that are caused by MLC, that promoting the mentality that MLC is about buying 7 things, does a great disservice to those of us who have experienced much more traumatic behaviors.
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No disrespect meant. My point is how the outside world simply doesn't get it.
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I think there will eventually be a diagnosable name for this disease/dis-ease - and it probably won't be "midlife crisis", simply because that carries too much prejudice toward a silly episode of irresponsibility and youth-chasing.
Ten/twenty/thirty years ago we didn't use the word "autism" everyday, and now it is everywhere, thanks to the parents who didn't give up on their kids for being diagnosed as just 'slow/awkward/lazy/the r word'. We know about the spectrum and we discuss possible causes and cures openly throughout the media and in support groups because of people just like us who loved someone and knew there was more to the story than just 'bad behavior'. But until our day comes and this thing is faced head on in our culture, we're a very small minority who recognize this illness, and an even smaller group who choose to continue to value our marriages regardless. Things will change. Probably not tomorrow.
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I really wish that those who don't experience this would stop trying to excuse it or pretend it doesn't exist. Its just like all the people who say that kids from divorced homes adjust and get along just fine after two years or so. Some do and some NOT!!
Also a little bit annoyed at being in the vanguard of things. I liked being a style setter in my teens, but with a 24 yr old who was diagnosed with autism before anyone knew what to do with her, and now a MLC husband, I am actually much more willing to follow a path rather than blaze one. Just feeling a bit tired and bored with the whole thing now. Patience isn't one of my finer qualities. Always thought my "special kiddo" was meant to teach me something. Guess dad is just picking up where she left off. :)
Thanks for sharing the article. Wish others could realize though that even if 80% have a midlife transistion, for the ones who love those in the 20% its really frustrating.
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I think there will eventually be a diagnosable name for this disease/dis-ease - and it probably won't be "midlife crisis", simply because that carries too much prejudice toward a silly episode of irresponsibility and youth-chasing.
Ten/twenty/thirty years ago we didn't use the word "autism" everyday, and now it is everywhere, thanks to the parents who didn't give up on their kids for being diagnosed as just 'slow/awkward/lazy/the r word'. We know about the spectrum and we discuss possible causes and cures openly throughout the media and in support groups because of people just like us who loved someone and knew there was more to the story than just 'bad behavior'. But until our day comes and this thing is faced head on in our culture, we're a very small minority who recognize this illness, and an even smaller group who choose to continue to value our marriages regardless. Things will change. Probably not tomorrow.
Couldn't agree more R2
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Me too ready2, good comparison with our understanding of autism. Now if we could get some psychologist/neurologist to do research paper and then a TED talk maybe the peeps at Huff post will take this thing seriously!
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I go thru Puffington's divorce section a lot...but I think there is way too much 'you go girl...it's great..be a cougar' etc...there is some good stuff..but I have to be patient
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Me too ready2, good comparison with our understanding of autism. Now if we could get some psychologist/neurologist to do research paper and then a TED talk maybe the peeps at Huff post will take this thing seriously!
Perfect plan.
I was talking to S20 earlier today and said that I wish I could spend the next 7 years studying for a BSc and beyond, specialising in neurology.
I think it's going to take someone to have been personally touched by this thing, to be interested in getting to the bottom of it.
Sadly, I have no desire to be 58 and have many years of a student loan to repay, so this person won't be me.
I go thru Puffington's divorce section a lot...but I think there is way too much 'you go girl...it's great..be a cougar' etc...there is some good stuff..but I have to be patient
That would have to be hard to stomach. Eat, Pray, Love came on the tv the other night. Needless to say, in defense of all of you male LBS, I changed the channel.
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http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/eat-pray-love-where-are-they-now/
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rover, That follow up article was hilarious. Reality check or what?
R2T, where'd ya get so smart?
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HuffPost's authors usually get it wrong, but the comments can be worth reading. Here are a few I compiled after BD:
You don't ask the person going through the crisis if they are having a mid-life crisis, you ask the people around them who know who they were and how they used to think. The person in crisis is confused, forgetful and ambivalent. They can not and never will cop to being labeled as someone experiencing a mid-life crisis. But everyone around them can plainly see the vast changes and feels the unbridled ramifications the person experiencing the crisis leaves in their wake. They have lost their footing, they have questions about everything with very few answers. The self they used to be no longer has grounding in the body and life they are living. They are desperately searching for a way to make sense of it all and to get back on solid ground. And because of this they act out.
I know this through direct experience. I watched my lovely wife transform almost overnight to an entirely new person who had very little use for anyone who was important to her before in her new life. So far, I have hung in there and watched, learned and grown myself. And because of this I am witnessing the other side of the crisis. I am witnessing an awakening. I would venture to say that most people are only around for the tearing down, the destruction caused by the mid-life sufferer. They never get to see the ever so slow recovery and grounding on the other side.
This is what happened to me and my husband. His sudden, extreme change in behavior (and total loss of ethics - he took almost everything we own and cleaned out my bank account to pay for an affair with a woman he was soon cheating on) and complete disowning of me and all of his old friends) were so dramatic that MANY friends wanted to legally and medically intervene in order to check whether he had a BRAIN TUMOR.
He had acted like he loved me, never told me he was anything but happy, never stopped sleeping with me, never stopped telling me he loved me... until the day he just left.
I don't know what happened to him but midlife crisis is the only thing that makes sense; he appears to be healthy two years on so I don't think it's a brain tumor.
I miss the husband I knew. I don't know who this person is, but his complete change in personality makes me think of the German word "Doppelgaenger" - the concept of someone having a twin (or evil twin) must have come from somewhere! Like demonic possession, I suspect the idea of Doppelgaenger comes from a radically changed person who no longer bears any resemblance to the person s/he used to be.
I still miss my husband and don't understand what happened to him - and though I try not to, I keep hoping one day he will be back. I loved him truly.
It happened to me! Seven years ago when my husband was 42, he decided he wanted to re-unite with his high school sweetheart. He just packed and left one Sunday morning! Needless to say, I was quite upset for a few weeks. After 6 months, he called me out of the blue one day and wanted to take me to dinner. I was just curious enough that I had to go...and needless to say, my kids were furious with me! But I went and we had a wonderful evening. We ended up dating for 6 months before I let him come home. To this day, he can't tell me why he did it. He says that something just came over him and he felt like he had to do it. For the last 6 years, he has been the most loving, kind and selfless husband a woman could ask for. Guess the old saying is true...you don't know what you have until it's gone. And that goes for both of us!
Let me tell you what a mid-life crisis does to families. I was married to a very successful surgeon. I myself am a doctor. Three wonderful children. Then it happened. The sports cars. The woman. The cheating. All at 50 years of age. Then the blonde hair to look younger, the tanning. The parties. And then the depression crash. The practice is no more. The divorce. Three successful children who were good students plunged. Their home gone. No college for second child because no finances and refusal to pay. Mother working 8am to 9pm. Third child raising himself. Extended family divided. Debt paid now by mother after 5 years of husband's spending. He is remarried to 26 year old and he is 61. Children have no relationship with him because 26 year is jealous of his daughter. After counseling and family that stuck by us the children and I have spent first Christmas in 5 years with all trimmings. A whirlwind ride I would not wish on my worst enemy.
I have heard or known about at least 50 situations where (mostly men) have fallen apart around their 40's, up and walked away from a devoted family and left the family completely shocked. I also experienced a 42 yr marriage where my husband had a mid life crisis every 20 yrs and finally divorced. Wine --lots of it-- women and chasing after men of status and power. Experience is truth for me and unfortunately, I continue to hear more stories every week.
Of a group of 10 friends, 7 of them had husbands in their 40s up and leave without warning. One came home from work, announced he had a 19-yr-old girlfriend, and walked out on his wife and three young kids. Another sent an email while on a business trip saying he wanted a divorce. His wife and two kids were shocked. A third thought it was a swell idea to hook up with prostitutes he found on Craig's list. A fourth had secretly been taking a girlfriend on business trips with him, while the wife stayed home and cared for the kids. You get the picture. In all cases, these were educated men with good jobs who seemed to love their families. The wives were devastated because they thought they had good marriages.
I've seen quite a few men and women run off with younger partners for a few years, then suddenly realize they threw away what was truly important. In every case it was far too late to get back what they lost and they all are these sort of sad, ghost people who lurk at parties, laughing too loudly and drinking too much while trying to get off with younger people. It's kind of pathetic, particularly how they dress.
My sister-in-law's husband went through a classic mid-life crisis with nose job, sports car, moving to a new town, losing weight, chasing younger women, etc etc. The only reason the marriage survived is that he didn't catch any. I myself went through a rough patch when I hit 40 that lasted years. The only people who laugh at a mid-life crisis are people who have never had one.
I went through what I know to have been my midlife crisis and have seen many others go through it with no childishness or dishonesty or irresponsibility involved, only deep inner conflict and despair.
It is not a myth! I had one and wished I had had cancer instead! I was in a fog and hurt many people that I cared about! Thank goodness I survived it and was able to repair some of the damage!
I'm 51, I watched everybody I knew who was of my age go through a midlife crisis. Most did not handle it well, generally they came out of it less happy than before.
I clearly remember my father going through that phase while my mom was trying to cope with menopause. What's more interesting, everyone in the family detected something was off with my dad except him. He traded his sedan for a red convertible T-Bird & started wearing age inappropriate outfits and borrowing my music CDs. Unfortunately he was never able to recognize these sudden changes and still refuses to accept anything was wrong. I hope mine be a lot milder. That's why I shared your blog with my wife and asked her to keep a watchful eye for early signs.
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Posting these responses is great, thank you for that. So many people telling the same story!
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Those are some great responses. I'm a little concerned about the person quoting the 7 out of 10 statistics l...II'm getting really discouraged about the future. I'm dealing with a crisis already at 26, am I doomed to suffer through another in 20 years no matter who my partner is? *shudder*
I hope we will see an increase in serious articles about the topic. .. but I think for the moment we're still at a point where those who haven't experienced it first hand think it's made up...
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I found the timeframes interesting. Makes me wonder if I might be experiencing some depression or despair unrelated to XW......
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http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/love,-sex-and-relationships/the-three-little-words-that-ended-a-marriage-20140810-3dg37.html
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http://news.yahoo.com/antidepressants-affect-feelings-love-partner-165147134.html
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Would be interesting if they would include a control group that is depressed but not taking medication. To see how these results differ - if indeed they do?
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Since the serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) seem to affect men's felling of love and tricyclic antidepressants women't feeling of love, all it may require is to perscribe the right med.
Also, many of our MLCers were not taking anti-depressants. Their feelings of love completly changed. When Mr J was depressed twice, years before MLC and took fluoxetine (prozac) that is a SSRI he never lost his feeling of love. He just felt angry, irritated and become a little violent. We both were very scared of the effects it provoked him.
Maybe that is why when he told me he was depressed, months before he left, he said he did not wanted any meds. He may had remembered the effect prozac had on him. Both me and the doctor from the company he worked for told him there were other types of antidressansts but Mr J did not even wanted to head about it.
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Hoss was one who was probably wallowing until SSRI and anti-psychotics were prescribed. I follow some sites about that as well. For anyone else wanting the "view from the other side" - here are some people who came out of the drug fog. It will ring familiar:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V_y9LX-6WGaD4SfA4IZghBMEM3nqHdUluN2sAidGfzg/edit
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Minus the last, the list is what our MLCers, even without SSRI say
- I love you as a brother / friend / roommate but I'm not in love with you
- I don't know why I married you / I felt out of love many years ago
- possible affairs, gambling, street drug use, divorce
- most users don't have any insight that their behavior changes are made by drugs.
- most users after several months of withdrawal come back to old self and have serious issues with things they did while on SSRI
SSRI, like most antidepressants, suppress libido. They probably suppress several other things. May cousin was more or less the same with or without normal SSRI. He only start to react well to bupropion (eleontril) a non SSRI med and lamotrigine a med for bipolar. Both comes originally come from neurology.
I've also taken bupropion for my situational depression and had very good results. Bupropion is an atypical antidepressant, it does not fit into any other antidepressants category and, among other things, it does not suppress libido. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion
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FTT, anjae, R2T, kikki
WOW!
my ex was on paxil and zoloft for about 6 months and BAM, affair/spending money like water/fired from job of 10+ years...
how in the world does one separate MLC from the drug-induced madness?
are they inextricably linked?
ex h quit SSRIs cold turkey (R2, you and i have communicated about this)--wonder if he's just decided to stay "in the fog" SSRI's or no?
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I think that cold turkey thing really has far more of an impact than what anyone wants discussed. They talk in weeks and months for withdrawal to pass, but I remember reading about a lawyer who took 4.5 years to fully emerge from her SSRI fog - after losing her practice and her marriage.
It's chicken/egg/chicken-egg biscuit to me. Maybe they were entering into MLC or some other sort of imbalance and sought help for the symptoms, and after the SSRIs it is worse. Maybe the SSRIs triggered the crisis. Or maybe it's all just one big messy glob of neurotransmitter and hormone hell, falling at midlife when they'd be evaluating their lives anyway and experiencing bad thing by coincidence, and especially affecting those with bad childhoods or maturity problems. Just another piece of the perfect storm we can be the meteorologists for but not the storm chasers. ;)
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how in the world does one separate MLC from the drug-induced madness?
are they inextricably linked?
Not to my knowledge. Mr J was not on antidepressants. He had been, briefly, many years before MLC but did not show any of the behaviour MLCer show.
And many MLCers are not on antidepressants. Also, some quit them, yours, Ready2's and others. They do not come out of the fog after they have quit the antidepressants.
Maybe antidepressants can raise the crisis to a high level. But without antidepressants many MLCers have high replay long lasting crisis. And some MLCers seem to respond ok to antidepressants.
I really have no anwser. Except that each person is afffected differently by antidepressants (and the ones mentioned in the article are SSRIs, there are other types of antidepressants) and the crisis itself, antidepressants or no antidepressants.
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It's chicken/egg/chicken-egg biscuit to me. Maybe they were entering into MLC or some other sort of imbalance and sought help for the symptoms, and after the SSRIs it is worse. Maybe the SSRIs triggered the crisis.
But this would only apply to those who took SSRI. It does not apply to the ones who did not. And all MLCers had MLC, SSRI or not.
Cold turkey is not a good idea. Often a different, milder med (not a SSRI), is needed when the SSRI is being stop. And one has to lower the dosage slowly, for a lengthy period of time. Otherwise the effects will not be nice.
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But this would only apply to those who took SSRI. It does not apply to the ones who did not. And all MLCers had MLC, SSRI or not.
Not saying that SSRIs are the only cause of crisis, but for those here who took them, I believe in some way it is absolutely a factor. Just like we can't say childhood abuse is the underlying cause of MLC - many here have MLCers who experienced it, maybe even a disproportionate amount, but not all. And certainly not all who have suffered abuse are destined to enter into crisis.
Cold turkey is not a good idea. Often a different, milder med (not a SSRI), is needed when the SSRI is being stop. And one has to lower the dosage slowly, for a lengthy period of time. Otherwise the effects will not be nice.
You're tellin' me. ;)
I had a trauma-specializing psychologist tell me as well that when these strong meds are not coupled with a mood stabilizer, they can also trigger mania-like states that can't be controlled until a patient goes back on a drug (like Lithium). Absolutely none of it is anything to play with.
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I've never thought of this before, but because MLCers change so much, and lie about everything - I have to wonder if any of them were taking meds without telling us?
My H raced around like a crazed loon stating that there was nothing wrong with him, and that he wouldn't be taking medication as it would affect his creativity. A bold statement for someone who apparently had nothing wrong with him, and has supposedly never taken meds.
Thinking about his two psychotic breaks, just before BD - I guess there's a small chance he may have taken antidepressants (and felt the affects), and went cold turkey off them.
OR - he had his emotional/mental implosion without this added factor.
Once again, can someone, somewhere do some research into all of this please :-\
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They could had been lying but unless antidepressants can be bought without medical prescription, not sure how they would have got them. Mr J had no prescription by the GP or his company doctor. He refused to be given meds. He has also not seen a psychiatrist. SIL insisted he would, he refused.
If Mr J had been buying antidepressants on mine and the doctors back (and no idea how he would do it) he would had told OW1. He wrote her about everything he did or did not. There is nothing about taking antidepressants, just about sleepless nights spends crying. A thing he never told me. He mask the lack of sleep as always had been that way (not true) and the crying as an effect of being so in love with her.
Right, and adult man spends sleepsless nights crying because he is in love. ::) ::)
My cousin also did not took any meds until he was way into deep depressive mood. Most men are not going to go and buy antidepressants. For me the crisis comes from elsewhere.
Once again, can someone, somewhere do some research into all of this please :-\
Think that will end up being a LBS.
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Add into the mix the OP who could be slipping them THEIR meds - I know the OW in my case was very involved in discussing it all with Hoss, even though supposedly the affair didn't start until a year and a half later. ::) Her son was on Adderall, so I'm sure that's the same as a doctorate in psychiatry. /sarcasm
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I m confused. . So the depression can cause loss of feelings of love and mlc madness. But taking antidepressants can also cause the same thing. If it's a matter of chemistry I don't understand how two different 'balances'' can cause the same results.
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Guessing the trigger event is depression itself, just based on everyone's observations (my H had all the classic symptoms, from the disturbed sleep to the rage). All these psychoactive drugs work so differently depending on the drug class, and on each individual - in some cases they may be uninhibiting, a kind of unleashing the monster. And in some they may act as a jackboot stepping on libido and motivation.
I faintly recall there were a number of warnings about SSRIs in teens, that the drug could unmask depression rather than treat it - or at least by getting rid of the amotivation problem in a depressed teen, the SSRIs unmasked their underlying suicidality, and made them more likely to actually give it a try. Now, we did say MLCers are acting too much like teenagers..... ::)
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Think you're right about the trigger event most likely being the depression itself osb.
All these psychoactive drugs work so differently depending on the drug class, and on each individual - in some cases they may be uninhibiting, a kind of unleashing the monster. And in some they may act as a jackboot stepping on libido and motivation.
That's important for us all to remember. We can often be under the illusion that medication is more of an exact science than it sometimes is.
I faintly recall there were a number of warnings about SSRIs in teens, that the drug could unmask depression rather than treat it - or at least by getting rid of the amotivation problem in a depressed teen, the SSRIs unmasked their underlying suicidality, and made them more likely to actually give it a try. Now, we did say MLCers are acting too much like teenagers..... ::)
I think from memory, this is especially a potential in the first six weeks of taking the medication.
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I got my H to go on Prozac...this was after getting ED / Thyroid Removal / bouts of anger coupled with lack of motivation...then depression. I led him to Prozac. I know now, from reading so many links, thanks to this forum...I compounded it all and made it worse.
When he was leaving, he said "I feel dead inside" He did not love me, the dogs, his friends, his house or his life. Later when asked by a close friend, if OW was his new love...he said no...very matter of factly. So though he told her he loves her...I doubt he really means it.
SSG
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The good news is that IF they were to exercise, they could reverse many of the depressive effects. But... since they won´t admit that there is a problem in the first place, how that would happen is beyond me.
As for the ones who go become gym rats, I think they get hooked on the endorphin high from working out.
Life requires balance and they are out of balance; as are we until we get a grip.
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I too have read that the first few weeks on antidepressants bring more risk of suicide than actual depression. .. at least it would seem the psychiatric community is well aware of the fact.
And yep for the dead inside. X felt nothing when his niece was born or when my grandma died. Around the forum there are many reports of mlcers feeling nothing for dead or sick relatives. .. hallmark of depression.
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The other person could be giving their meds to the MLCer but I don't think that would happen in most cases.
Depression itself being the trigger. It could be, but I think something more than just depression. Maye something that triggered the depression to another level? Death of a relative, loss of a job, health problem, etc.?
That's important for us all to remember. We can often be under the illusion that medication is more of an exact science than it sometimes is.
Medication is far from an ezxact science (same for medicine) and many times psychiatrists just prescribe meds without any sort of tests.
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Depression itself being the trigger. It could be, but I think something more than just depression. Maye something that triggered the depression to another level? Death of a relative, loss of a job, health problem, etc.?
This MLC is such an endless loop - but what we were talking about was the loss of loving feelings etc (meds or the depression itself).
What causes the depression at mid life (or ramping up of the depression) seems to be the hormone fluctuations, and as Jed Diamond talks about - the decline instead of being slow, can drop suddenly with major stress (loss of a close relative etc) and causes rapid changes to the biochemistry. Giving rise to the many physical (body and brain) symptoms that we see.
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The use of antidepressants and hormonal therapy as well as many other medications is as Anjae says, not an exact science. Hormonal levels fluctuate during a 24 hour period, so even if blood levels are taken, the numbers may not mean much.
Think about people who suffer from SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder). Not everyone has effects from lack of sunshine but for some, they are terribly affected. Our bodies are very complex and thus each person responds differently.
I seem to experience side effects from any meds that I take and thus, I take half doses of nearly everything. My doctor thinks it is because of my specific body metabolism.
A lot of people want a pill to fix everything and the pharmaceutical companies love it. Alternative medicine doesn't generate the same revenue potential as drugs. Doctors prescribe meds, patients ingest many other things that may interact with those meds...even certain foods can have an affect.
My MLCer was not taking AD's but I can see he sure is depressed. What the solution for that is, I wish I knew.
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Depression itself being the trigger. It could be, but I think something more than juts depression. Maye something that triggered the depression to another level? Death of a relative, loss of a job, health problem, etc.?
This MLC is such an endless loop - but what we were talking about was the loss of loving feelings etc (meds or the depression itself).
What causes the depression at mid life (or ramping up of the depression) seems to be the hormone fluctuations, and as Jed Diamond talks about - the decline instead of being slow, can drop suddenly with major stress (loss of a close relative etc) and causes rapid changes to the biochemistry. Giving rise to the many physical (body and brain) symptoms that we see.
My H suffered from Thyroid problems (as did his M and GM) I think hormones played a major role. First M lasted 15 years, ours 15 yrs.......hormones eventually led to his other prob. ED, depression.....his was a slow decline. Though he did point out that our marriage breaking up was not to be compared to his first one. His first one he got a D in record time, for Germany.
I have no doubt that hormones was the major contributing factor...in my sitch. I got the "I'm dead inside" talk more than once.
SSG
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This MLC is such an endless loop - but what we were talking about was the loss of loving feelings etc (meds or the depression itself).
The loss of feeling could be either the depression, the meds of both (if a MLCer/depressed person has taken meds). But what is weird in MLC is that a MLCer does not become flat and down like in normal depression.
Their feeling are, in fact, all over the place. Exaggerated, crazy, overwhelming. They just seem to disappears in regard to what used to be dear to the MLCer before crisis. They are over feeling about OW, their new life, new hobbies.
Think Mr J may also have thyroid problems. Both MIL and SIL suffered from hyperthyroidism and they wanted him to be tested when he start to say he was depressed, months before he left. He refused.
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One of the first things I googled re my MLCer's weird behaviours, was thyroid difficulties. He actually agreed to have a blood test just after BD, and was within the normal range.
Their feeling are, in fact, all over the place. Exaggerated, crazy, overwhelming. They just seem to disappears in regard to what used to be dear to the MLCer before crisis. They are over feeling about OW, their new life, new hobbies.
Completely bizarre isn't it. It's as though it's a very very very long bipolar manic episode. Maybe the same regions of the brain go haywire due to the hormonal changes, as they do in someone who is bipolar?
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I have no idea how hormones fluctuate in the human body, but do you reckon it might have something to do with the 'cycles' that MLCers have? I was reading on a thread tonight about one MLCer cycling like clockwork every two months and it made me think that there are indeed other hormonal 'cycles', like the ones connected to ovulation, so maybe it's not too far-fetched... I wish I knew more about this stuff...
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I have no idea how hormones fluctuate in the human body, but do you reckon it might have something to do with the 'cycles' that MLCers have? I was reading on a thread tonight about one MLCer cycling like clockwork every two months and it made me think that there are indeed other hormonal 'cycles', like the ones connected to ovulation, so maybe it's not too far-fetched... I wish I knew more about this stuff...
Yes, absolutely. Jed Diamond is someone who knows a great deal about male hormones. For whatever reason, the research done in the 1940's (I think it was) was not well publicised, and is only just coming to light now.
Men definitely do cycle - each day, each month, each season.
He recommends that men chart their own mood - they never sync with other men (as women sync with other women), nor do they cycle with the moon, but they have their own unique timeframe.
My MLCer is one who has tended to cycle in three monthly timeframes.
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Completely bizarre isn't it. It's as though it's a very very very long bipolar manic episode. Maybe the same regions of the brain go haywire due to the hormonal changes, as they do in someone who is bipolar?
It is bizarre but I always thought that MLC (at least the high energy version) is similar to bipolar, not to depression. Bipolar has the depression and the manic side, just like our MLCers.
Do the same regions of the brain go haywire as they do to someone who is bipolar? Who knows? We have no scans of MLCers brains. Real bipolar people, to my knowledge, are not bipolar because of hormonal changes, but our MLCers hormonal changes (and we always need to remember that cortisol, that rises stress is an hormone and that high levels of stress interfere with testosterone) may mimic bipolar.
Any creature who has hormones, and brain chemicals, will cycle. Some cycle more than others. And when levels are out of balance the cycles can be extreme. If you add to it the fact that our MLCers may have compromised their brain electric circuit as well as become addicted to a number of things, it really looks like a very turbulent and ugly picture.
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http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/12/the-real-roots-of-midlife-crisis/382235/?google_editors_picks=true
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Pretty good article.
I think I will post it on our face book page of the hero's spouse and get any reaction their too.
Thanks for the link!
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I thought it dealt more with mid-life transition and seemed to not have an awareness of the devastation caused to the spouse and family--saying merely that they were "aghast." But on the other hand the descriptions of the feelings of an MLCer were inciteful and accurate. Also the fact that mid-life dissatisfaction is even found in apes gives one hope that recognizing this is getting more scientific legitimacy.
It was also interesting that telling others this was normal was a source of relief to them. Maybe the fact that this tends to be buried allows it to grow to crisis proportions in some. Then again there is the complication of the FOO issues....
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Interesting article. But this is not true:
"Long ago, when I was 30 and he was 66, the late Donald Richie, the greatest writer I have known, told me: “Midlife crisis begins sometime in your 40s, when you look at your life and think, Is this all? And it ends about 10 years later, when you look at your life again and think, Actually, this is pretty good.”
MLC does not begin sometime in your 40's and ends 10 years later [in your 50's]. Some of us have MLCer whose crisis begin in their 30's and other whose crisis begin in their 50's or 60's.
So, for those whose crisis begin in their 50's and 60's happiness did not increase since their 40's.
"Why the common dissatisfaction in middle age?"... Lets see, because one has either achieved all there is to achieve; because one is dealing with aging parents, teenage children, a spouse in MLC; because one is overwhelmed with lots of obligations and responsibilities and one no longer has the energy of the 20's or 30's.
Agree with Still Kicking, it seems to be more about midlife transition than midlife crisis. In fact most articles (blogs, etc) that use midlife crisis are often about midlife transition.
The midlife crisis we deal with here seems to be an intirely different beast.
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I agree, I thought the title should have been more inline with a transition not a crisis.
But I did think it hit some very intereting points about how it all begins. I do think that all of our loved ones did not set out to have a crisis. I think it is the disquiet and it starts off as a transition. Just like in our teenage years, we all went thru it, just some had it worse than others. I think Mid life is the same. Different variables set it up to either be just a transition or a full blown crisis.
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It must, somehow, start has a transition, but we pretty much end up being faced with the full crisis.
Some of us here have MLCer who are having, or had, milder crisis. Or, at least, their replay were milder and shorter.
I think out of balance hormones, and stress is cause by the hormone cortisol, are the basis of MLC. Stress, as well as a lowering in testosterone for men, causes all sorts of issues. And lower testosterone even replicates depression.
So, maybe the whole issue is hormonal/chemical but since the MLCers have no idea what is going on with them, and those who have are often treated for depression rather than for hormones, the crisis just keep getting worst and worst until the MLCer is too tired to carry on.
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Oddly enough, my H read a version of this article in the Economist last month:
http://www.economist.com/node/17722567
Apparently it made a lot of things come suddenly clear in his mind - yay! - so he had cut it out of the magazine for me to read too. But lost all but the first two pages. And found those two pages last week, lurking in his scrap paper heap. Handed them to me with the jaunty air of a man who has it all figured out now. Oh, the soggy MLC brain....
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My spouse has been treated for low T along with his depression. It didn't seem to make a difference.
He stopped taking his meds last spring. He went back on them with a new one added in to the mix and within the next month he decided that I was evil again.
I wish the medical community would really take this seriously.
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That is interesting, Living With Hope. One would think it would make a difference. Because low testosterone does indeed cause similar effects to depression and/or MLC. Being grumpy, angry, wanting to cry, feeling life is over, etc.
Do you think if your husband only took the meds for his testosterone and not the ones for depression it would made a difference? Antidepressants often have the opposite effect of what they're supposed to.
And with MLCers who have replay, meds for bipolar seem to have a better effect.
Also wish the medical community took MLC seriously. It impacts so many lives and causes so much damage and devastation.
OSB, interesting article.
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Anjae,
I have discussed this at length with our Family Doctor. I fell his meds have something to do with this all. He was put on a new med when he had his mini bomb drop. He had trouble with those meds and it was a year of trying to find one that worked. He was changed to the one he is on now in the summer just before BD. I noticed a huge difference in him. I thought he was heading towards another depression. I tried talking to him about that. I was scared as the last one was so dark and so deep. He gave me hope that this wasn't the case as he talked about our plans for the future and assured me that he was working hard with his counsellor. By fall, he hated me. I thought there was a correlation between the meds and the Testosterone. The Dr said he his hormones were out of whack because of his depression and that the meds did not alter one's thought process that he was on.
He has been on those meds almost the entire duration. He stopped this past January and by spring, even the kids could tell. He even stopped the testosterone. He was all over the place with his moods. Well he finaly went back to her and she prescribed a stronger doseage of the same meds, added one in and he resumed his T gel. Well the next month, I was evil again. So I often think about how his different meds have affected him over the years and how on this one, I am seem to be all that is wrong in his world.
I was away when he went to the Dr to receive his test results of his blood work and stuff. He texted me and was shocked by how low his T count was. He told me that he was scared to try the gel or the shots so was going to start with the pills.He was worried he would become like the Hulk on them and scare me and the kids. He had gone to the Dr because he was concerned about his level of stamina in our intimate moments. The funny thing is he never has blamed me for that . That is one thing that has never been thrown my way. (yet...) So in August, we have him worried about us and our intimate moments to beginning of October where he blamed me for everything that was wrong in his world.
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Thank you for your reply, Living With Hope. The meds really are messing your husband. But without them he also does not seem to be well.
I think it is more the other way round, what looks like depression is caused by the low testosterone, not the depression that causes the low testosterone/wacky hormones.
So maybe all it would be necessary would be the testosterone gel. But since the doctor also gave your husband meds for depression, now everything is much more messed up because the antidepressants cause all sorts of side effects.
I've posted on TT’s thread on the other side of the forum that I had been reading an article on low testosterone on a Portuguese magazine (they do not have online links to the print version, at least not to the current one). Among many other thing the article said that often doctors tend to go for antidepressants in cases of low testosterone and that it does not work.
Of course I have no idea how all this plays in the wider issue that is MLC, but from what the little I know of neuroscience and hormones, it does make more sense that it is the low testosterone that causes what looks like depression.
The other thing I know is that even if it is just depression that is at play, it is hard to find the right antidepressant for each person. What has good results with some people has terrible ones with others. Prozac being one. My cousin reacted pretty badly to it and Mr J, when he was depressed many years ago, went crazy with it. Prozac turned Mr J aggressive and a jumpy bunny rabbit. When he was depressed a second time, also years before MLC, he refused to take Prozac and I supported him on his decision.
And I told my friend who is a psychiatrist to not even think of give Prozac to my cousin. My friend didn't. He gave him Lamotrigine and Alprazolam. And it worked. But, to my knowledge, my cousin testosterone was not low. Or if it was he never was tested for it. But before a doctor got some meds that helped my cousin, cousin had been through meds for all sorts of mental illness and, of course, the meds messed him up big time. I wrote a little about on Thundarr’s thread and posted an update on cousin on my thread.
Really wish some one would gives us reseach money for us to be able to know more about MLC, what changes it causes in the MLCer brain, hormones, etc. Maybe one day this condition will be taken seriously enough to be researched.
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Anjae,
In 2010, my husband had his deepest and darkest depression. It lasted months. It ended with a mini bomb drop that scared the two of us beyond belief. He went for help the very next day. She prescribed new meds that they tinkered with for months. They never seemed to find the right fit.
When he went for her for help again with his issues, that is when she decided to do a full work up of him. She explained it to me that depression causes the hormones to go all out of whack. And maybe like you said it is the hormones that causes the depression. All I know was that he was in the grips of a bad one and then he sought help and he was doing great until the new med and the testosterone were prescribed. I blamed the drugs for a long time.
But I realize that he was a perfect storm waiting to hit. I think the drugs are not allowing him to feel his real thoughts. He describes them as evening him out. And after witnessing his highs and lows on that trip, I do agree that they do to some level. Until he is able to be honest and talk with his counsellors and Doctor about it all, there will be no help for him that is proper.
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Until he is able to be honest and talk with his counsellors and Doctor about it all, there will be no help for him that is proper.
You are right. We don't know exactly what the meds are doing, or not doing, but until your husband talks properly to his counsellors and doctor no one can help him properly.
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Very interested in the low T and depression meds subject. H has a long history of this. He is currently on the gel. However, his levels are dropping. Something is going on there but we have in play the drinking and weed smoking AND he stopped taking his meds for depression/anxiety/mood stabilizer. He's on these meds for PTSD. It's funny because all of this craziness took on a new meaning at the same time he was prescribed the meds and the T shots.
I need to revisit all this again.