Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: calamity on May 17, 2013, 07:12:05 AM
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Hi,
If anyone can share experiences re: children, visitation, custody could you please chime in here. Magnite38 asked me about this & fortunately, I have no experience. [I can't imagine letting younger children go off with an mlcer]. There's a few on this board with children who are dealing with visitation & schedules & legal arrangements. Any help appreciated.
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Hello Calamity,
I have two children, my son was 11 when my exH left in October 2009 and my daughter was 8. My children are now 14 and almost 12. I can only share what worked for me and it has been the most difficult thing that I have ever done. I put my children's right to have a relationship with their Dad above my own pain - my love for my kids outweighed the 'hatred' I had for their Dad and his actions.
Right from the start I strived for my kids to see their dad 'regularly and consistently' - for me this means that he collect the kids every other Friday from school and returns them each Monday. This means I don't see him, he is very angry, and I have some 'me' time to heal and build my life. He lives within 5 miles of where we do and he passes the end of our road every day to go to work but he pretty much sticks to this routine. My exH married the OW back in June 2011. My children really don't like her - they have come to that conclusion themselves by spending time with her and their Dad. Almost 4 years on they seem to use every little excuse to not got their Dad's whilst she is there and are open in saying to him that they wish to spend more time with him.....alone. He has blown hot and cold about taking them to the cinema/meals etc in between his weekends in the last 3.5 years or so but in the main he sees them every other weekend and takes them away for a week with his wife.
I have read extensively about male depression, divorce and its impact on children etc etc - these are big drivers for me to ensure my children are involved with their Dad 'regularly and consistently' - I do not want to inflict upon my children the pain of a future MLC because I didn't help support them properly through their Dad's departure and subsequent years. Both my children are open and honest about what they think and feel about their Dad and his life. They are also very open with me about the things we should do more or less of and how they wish their life to look!
I am as 'dark' as I can possibly be with their Dad. - I think Fizzy mentioned 'parallel parenting' and I think that is a good description. I have no desire to co-parent with my exH - he is a broken man, a shadow of the guy he once was and whilst he is in MLC he is not someone I can trust at any level. I know he loves his children, he does what he can for them but it is with a limited set of tools now and I believe he starting to understand the consequences of his choices on his relationship with our children - but this is something he must work through on his own. His relationship with our children is just that....his.
I haven't rushed out to have another relationship (match.com in August 2010 lead me to a little dalliance which was fun and a friend introduced me to one of her friends in late 2011 but my children never met either of them but knew about the guys) which I think has consolidated our 'new normal' - we are a tough little group and our lives are filled with simple joy and lots of fun and laughter. These are the consequences of MY actions when I took the 'right' decision at the very start of this process back in October 2009. My exH is a very angry and manipulative man and for my mental well being I had to learn a whole new way of dealing with him. He doesn't get any of the real me - he gets the Mother of his children, the fun 2013 me is not someone he has any right to be involved with - time may change this but right now it works for me.
Calamity, I am not sure if this helps?? I can't comment on legal rights etc as we are a worldwide community. But I think you have to get your head in the correct mental space first and then you can follow through. the legal stuff should just enforce what you're doing in my view. The absolute bottom line is that my children have a right to have a relationship with their Dad and whilst my pain and hurt at his betrayal may have said otherwise my love for my kids mean that they have 'regular and consistent' contact with their Dad and they can build their relationship from there.
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Hi Calamity.
I sought Moving Forward's advice on the recommendation of other's here on the forum so I can certainly endorse what she has to say.
My kids are now 11, 9, 7 and 4. exH left 2 years ago. Divorce final today.
It is also the way I am handling things with exH and the kids. It is very business like when we do interact such as Cello lessons for my son or some extra clothes to keep at his place.
My H also has the kids from Friday night until Monday evening each fortnight. I don't go to the door if I don't have to.
The kids vent to me and I let them but also work with them on ways they can approach their dad about the things they don't like. I also take the stance it is about him and them and I am not involved. Their life with me is now just us and we are having a lot of fun together and certainly drawing closer.
My guiding principle is that I will NEVER stop the kids from seeing their dad but I will never force them to go either. He knows this. I've told him exactly that. If they need to be forced then he will have to do it. So far he also says he will never force them and sometimes they have ended up staying with me when it was their weekend to be with him. I step away and let him handle the issue with them but they know this is their home and they don't have to leave. I do encourage them though as I do want them to have a father.
Hope this helps.
SP
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Thanks Still and Moving. I am in the process of trying to figure out some consistent visitation schedules. My h wants the every other weekend and one evening a week, yet h is so absent, I think this is just talk. H knows what he should be doing as a parent but can't seem to follow through. I want him to see the kids regularly but only what he can handle. We have a S9, D7 and a baby 9months. He want to do things with the older kids but excludes the baby, too much work. H is so focused on himself right now, the care of the children are not there. He seem only capable of taking them out for a meal or sitting with them at the house for a couple hours tops. At some point I hope he can take the kids for a weekend but right now I don't think it is a good idea. I also don't want to separate the children and he defiantly can't handle a baby.
Here is another long weekend and h has just vanished without a word. He avoids all contact because he knows he should be seeing his kids.
I like the parallel parenting concept. I will not be involved with h's life at all, we are not friends, and until I see a renewed h he is not a part of my life. H has to figure this parenting stuff out all by himself and he seems to be having a h*ll of a time. Also h has a 24 yr old OW that I am sure wants nothing to do with the kids and this is a problem. H has got himself into a mess. His fantasy that I would help him with the kids, lol, is a big fantasy. I am allowing him to choose what kind of father he wants to be and he is sucking big time. Because the kids miss him...well miss old H, I do occasionally suggest extra visitations to h but he is just getting more distant.
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Hi Magnite, what is the worse case scenerio that you can come up with as far as your H having the kids during the time he wants them? If it is abusive I would fight it but if its just that he doesn't handle them the same way you do then maybe you should then look at what you want. If he is expecting to take the older two because they are easier and more fun then maybe he needs a reality check because he is the father of the baby as well and should expect to be responsible for all his children.
Also you probably need a bit of a break even though at first you probably will miss your kids so much it won't feel like one. The schedule he has given is a pretty typical one for divorced parents. Any way it turns out try to make sure he sticks to the schedule because as soon as it is set he will probably try to exert some sort of control of the situation. I think one thing my exH didn't consider is that by divorcing me he was handing control of the situation over to the courts. He got a major reality check when he took me back to court to try to reduce child support and had his hand smacked.
As far as parallel parenting, I have gone to using an online calendar and email for virtually all my communication. He doesn't monster at me but it still bothers me to even look at or talk to him so I have set it up to have as little contact as possible with him.
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Sorry Calamity, you were talking about Magnite 38 and I forgot this is actually your thread. I don't know if it is possible to move it to the appropriate place. My bad!
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My h left in Sept 2010 and didn't see our daughters for 6 months. When he did start seeing them it was just to pick them up for dinner a few times a month and in Dec 2011 we discovered he lived with OW. When it came to visiting I gave my h no choice, I did however at the recommendation of the girls therapist give them a choice. In Jan 2012 I proposed a schedule of every other weekend at his house and one day during the week, but only if the girls are OK with this. D15 has been following this schedule for about a year. D11 sees him only outside of his home. She will not go anywhere near OW.
My girls are old enough to voice their opinions and do so on a regular basis.
You have to do what's best for the children, and sometimes having a relationship with the MLC'er and OW is not what is best. The only way to figure this out is to talk to the children.
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Sorry Calamity, you were talking about Magnite 38 and I forgot this is actually your thread. I don't know if it is possible to move it to the appropriate place. My bad!
No, your bad is not reading well [can you tell I was trained as a teacher? ;) ] I started the thread as a discussion for all parents of young children to share experiences. Another murky area of mlc. My d is 22--not an issue--as a matter of fact I think she's given up on her father!
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Magnite38
I forgot to add the exH also takes one child every Wednesday for dinner alone with him. The kids do enjoy and look forward to this. it was a suggestion from the mediator and was their best time with him when, in the first year, he kept taking them every Sunday to OW's house. So the one on one dinners they just got dad and no OW. From what I hear of a lot of kids (some who are now adults) going through this, they want to see their parent but not the OW or OM.
I just try to keep things as open as possible for H to be a dad to his kids but it's up to him to take the next step.
Hugs,
SP
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Hi, just wanted to add in my 2cents worth.
My daughters are 18 & 11 (16 & 9 at BD). From the beginning we treated them differently just due to their age.
H and I agreed that Dnow18 could do her own thing and choose when she would visit. she has been spectactularly uninterested in visiting. She goes occasionally, only when H asks, never on her volition, rarely stays overnight. She has no interest in making her room there "hers". She pops around for coffee mostly. She has made it clear to him that she does not want to meet with OW while there. so far that seems to be working.
D11 is a more complicated situation, she finds it all very confusing. H wanted a more regular schedule with her and I agreed that was probably best, she needed the security of routine. So he picks her up from me Thursday evenings and drops her home Sunday evening. Fri evening to Monday morning with another evening mid week is, according to one lawyer I spoke to, a "normal" schedule here in Australia. He didn't show any interest in a mid week evening and I tweaked things to be Thurs to Sun - that way he has to do the school morning thing rather than just fun weekend stuff but D11 gets to always start the school week off from home here with me. He rarely makes any contact at all with her outside of this regular schedule. No phone calls, no turning up to school or sports events unless they fall on "his" weekend. I find this neglect of his little girl appalling but can't do anything about that. In the end, he is creating (or not creating) their relationship on his terms.
H doesnt like to have the girls together and I think there are a few reasons:
for a start its more work!
they do argue a bit and he has always found that difficult to deal with and left it to me. (conflict avoidance!)
Given the age difference they need different parenting...he can be D18's teenage buddy but has to actually be a parent to D11
D11 doesn't really want to go but has an OK time when she is there. I think she wants to spend time with her dad but doesn't want to be away from me, her source of security and unconditional love. We text a lot when she is away from me. I have already started talking to her about taking a little control of her visitation schedule, this will be difficult for her as she is very afraid that if she says or does anything that might make H unhappy that he "might not love her anymore". I would like there to be a gradual transition from the set schedule to a schedule that is flexible according to her needs and wishes and then the 'come as you choose" style arrangement that her older sister had from the age of 16.
That doesn't help you Magnite tho coz your kiddos are that much younger. I think a regular schedule is preferable. We all know kids do best with routine, after the upheavals they have already experienced they need to know what to expect. Also given your H lack of commitment to parenting so far I think you would start short and build up to longer once everyone was comfortable eg Sat afternoons at first gradually turning into a Sat night overnight. And unless baby needs mum (eg if sick) the kids are a package. All or none.
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H doesnt like to have the girls together
I have noticed through out this whole crisis, that my H cannot handle more than one of our sons at a time either.
He completely targets one at a time. At first they found this very confusing and hurtful, but after all of this time, they have zero expectations of him.
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Mine can handle both twice a month for 5 hours.
Comes back and says "I don't know how you do it!" ::)
They never slept over at OWs 2 miles away and we used to get really really nervous about him asking.
D13 ended it beautifully one day. He texted "You are sleeping over this weekend!"
She texted : No thanks!
H texted : Why not?
D13 texted: Because we don't want to.
H texted : OK I won't ask again. :o :o :o :o :o :o
D13 is a genius. That was too simple. She answered him like a teenager.
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My kids were 6, 10 and 18 when XW announced she was leaving us and wanted to live alone. For the first 3 months after she finally moved out S8 spent not one night with her and D12 only one. They felt completely abandoned and rightfully so as XW would go almost a week without even calling to check on them after having been a doting and attentive parent for 18 years before that. Thanks to Rover from LifeTwo and later friends here such as OP and Readytofixmyselffirst among many others I knew I had to take the mantle of fatherhood to a whole other level I had not yet even dreamed of. My kids needed at least one person they could count on to ensure their safety and look out for their welfare and I knew it had to be me. Since BD over 2 years ago there have only been 3-4 days that I have not seen the kids, and even on those days I talked to them on the phone at least once. I got my ducks in a row so-to-speak and prepared for an all-out custody war to ensure my having primary custody was court-ordered and it was without any fight from XW along with garnished support from her. But, even though I maintain primary custody along with educational and all other rights I have never prevented XW from seeing them nor them from seeing her. I've laid out pretty strict boundaries that she has so far respected. They have never seen an OM at her place when they visit her and she reports to me what they have eaten and where they have gone. I don't need control over XW but I do need to make sure she is taking care of them when they are with her. She is guaranteed only 6 days a month of seeing them but sees them more than that, although she still goes several days between contacts with them which I would prefer she did not. If they want to stay with her or she wants to come and see or pick them up I gladly accommodate if possible, and she in turn makes a point to bring the kids by to see me on her weekends so that I'm able to see them every day. I do think she does this for her own wants at times as she seems drawn to me, and often one or both will opt out of spending the whole weekend with her. As SP said about her sitch my kids know this is their home and they always have the right to stay here when they want. I will not force her relationship with them as that is between she and them, but I do think they are happiest and do better when she is in their lives more. As far as co-parenting, perhaps what I am doing really isn't as I'm calling almost all of the shots but I really do think she is doing the best she can and from what I gather the kids do as well. I hope they get from me that they should love their mother even though she's not being the mother they want her to be. I hope this helps.
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Thanks everyone. My h has no idea how to parent and I don't think he really wants to but knows he has too. I really am not happy having to send my kids to stay with h and OW, she is an extreme affair down. The stories I have hear about her are disgusting but h is determined she will be in his life a long time so the kids need to be introduced. My older two I am fine but h can't handle the baby and plans on passing her off to OW. I will fight for baby's rights to stay in a healthy loving home. The older two I will let dictate how often they stay with H and OW. I don't trust them with baby though and until I am forced to hand her over I will not. Especially when h is so absent in the kids lives and does nothing more then take the kids out for dinner once a week. H has no involvement in the kids activities or doing anything special with them.
I just got an email from h stating he was not a babysitter during our marriage so I could go out and he didn't want to be a babysitter now. What? This is called parenting. H is really messed up. He is so cold and ugly even around the kids he really doesn't seem to care. I kind of wish he would just take off and not subject us too this. The kids can sense he is different and not really interested in them. He goes 10 days without calling. Takes off and doesn't let us know when his next visit will be and misses the ones that where scheduled.
Once we go through the separation process, I will suggest for only one night every two weeks and one day mid week visit and see how this goes. I really thought he would pass on all over night visitation rights, he is so absent now. Regarding baby I'll say never, i know this is not possible but this is my starting point. ;). She will never want to go with him, she doesn't know him and he is not trying too. The separation process is going to be a nightmare and i have been trying to hold it off, I am just not ready emotionally to deal with all this. My h is a nightmare monster.
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Magnite, I am so sorry that you are dealing with this.
My kids were all early teens, and my H was also a very out of control monster, and they have all chosen NOT to ever stay over night with him, and they despise the OW, so try to have as little to do with her as possible.
I can't begin to imagine what this must be like with younger children.
I too would fight tooth and nail not to hand my baby over to those two. A recipe for disaster. I would research attachment disorders, and get a lawyer to be your advocate on this if you need one.
Fingers crossed the novelty of the overnighters wanes with the other two too, and the kids can all remain together. I know this is tough on you to always have them, but it's preferable to them being mucked around by a temporarily crazy Father, and a woman who you know very little about - and even less about her nurturing abilities.
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. Magnite38, I would recommend getting some professional advice on handing the baby over. Particularly if it os over night. My D was 2 when H left and the mediator told him D may not cope being away from me as long as the boys could. She has since stayed with me an extra night on some weekends.
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I emailed my lawyer about the baby and visitation. H can not handle baby and won't take her overnights right now and won't take her if I don't want him too. It is sad but I don't really want to even enforce day time visits with him and baby. I will if it is without OW but I don't think he will go for that, he needs the help, he has no idea how to be a father. He does not want to take the baby because it is to much work and plans on taking her when she is older. Will she go with him when she is older? She will never have a strong bond with her and will never really know him.
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You're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place with all of this Magnite.
Neither way is ideal. Nothing about a MLC is ideal.
You just have to do what is best for your baby - and sadly, that will mean she will probably never bond with her Father. That is not your fault. Just part of the awful fallout of this mess.
The way I used to look at it - depending on the day - my H used to emotionally regress anywhere between a two year old and a 17 year old on a good day.
Would I trust him with my children? Is he capable of having that responsibility right now?
Babies can't parent babies. Teens also have a REALLY hard time parenting babies.
Currently, he is not the man that you knew and trusted.
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Good evening all! I was having a long talk with D12 tonight about all the family had been through over the last 2-3 years and the changes in her mother that she is still struggling to come to grips with. She used to be the closest child to her mother, now she is just the opposite and sometimes even gets left here if she's sleeping when XW comes to pick them up or if she even gives a little resistance. She also described the way her mother's wardrobe has changed and used less-than-complimentary words. But, the hardest part for her was XW abandoning the family and taking up with lawyer boy and his as if she prefers them over us. She said that she has no one to talk to about all she's going through except us and her therapist because no one else understands as they've never been through this, and she brought up the question about where she might find other kids to talk to that would understand and share her experiences. SO.......I came up with the idea of helping our kids connect with each other in the same way other kids' support groups such as Al-Anon and the various groups for kids whose parents are suffering from terminal illnesses and such. I'm sure D12 is not the only one who would benefit from connecting with other kids who know what she's going through, and I imagine that many friendships might be borne just as several of us have developed relationships that will last far beyond our MLCers exiting the tunnel. So, I'm proposing those of us with kids talk to them and gauge their interest and then we can exchange numbers and set up a time that we can monitor their conversations if need be and hopefully help them to heal through shared experiences!!
Thoughts, guys?
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Hi Thundarr,
Interested! Not sure about how to in detail, and will be difficult for the next two months (kids just left to stay 3 weeks with my mum, then we will go on holiday together with intention of having little internet contact to really disconnect end resourrce) but after that: yes, I think it can halp. I have a D12, BD was a year ago. I have not talked about MLC, for us it is just 'daddy is a bit confused for the moment and he cannot decide'.... D12 speaks quite well English, but it is not her first language though.
Lost
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It's a good idea but it would be very hard to monitor. How about a pen pal scheme? Long distance calls can be expensive :-\
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What about skype? With a web cam, they can also see each other. It's easy to monitor if they keep the conversation on speaker rather than on head phone. They may also appreciate being able to speak confidentially to each other, as they do when they talk with their therapists.
I also have not used "MLC" to describe what H has done to the family and I would prefer to avoid using the term if we connect the kids since it's bound to get back to H. As we all know, one does not tell the WAS that he/she is in MLC and hearing it through the kids will be even less appreciated.
My daughter had only one other friend (boy 12) whose father has done the same thing. They really enjoyed each others company and talked a lot about each of their situations and how they felt about it. This friend has since moved out of state so it would be nice if she could connect with another her age (especially another girl) and they can share feelings, experiences, fears, frustrations, etc.
Our children have been even more traumatized than we have and an outlet with someone that is going/has gone through the same thing could be beneficial.
FYI we are on Pacific time so it would be ideal if we could hook up with someone in our same time zone.
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I'd guess that the modrators would question if they should get in the business of children's mental health
I'd start with school counselors and church groups
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It's an interesting idea, Thundarr. Age range would have to be thought about carefully. Older kids might find it easier to find points of connection with complete strangers? Tricky to make the introductions though. You'd maybe just have to dip a toe in the water and try it. Find someone with a kid of similar age, and similar level of wisdom/OK-ness with the whole thing.
Good luck and I'd encourage my S15 to talk if there were similar out there of his age. He's pretty cool about the whole situation.... So could perhaps relate to someone who similarly just wanted to share and laugh.
UKS
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UKS - my S is 15 nearly 16 and really struggling with anger and hatred for H (check ask Mentor 4 andmy thread)
TBH if he could hook up with like minded teenagers who perhaps have a more positive way of looking at it I would like him to do so. My S has become so detached he doesn't care if H lives or not and means it. He has a good group of friends but not one of them has the same sitch.
I think that under CEOP rules for UK this kind of forum would be difficult to monitor but perhaps a similar concept could be looked at through something like childline?
Sorry fellow LBSers if you are not UK but child protection laws are an issue here.
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SD, if your son has a facebook account, I am sure my daughter who is 17 would be happy to chat with him. She's a very sweet girl, hard working, stays out of trouble and her way of coping has been through her art work and getting A grades in all her A level works.
She doesn't hate her dad, hates the situation though and she know he's in MLC.
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Thanks b b64 I Will mention that to s.
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I think the benefit of sharing their feelings with someone like them is invaluable. Perhaps my perspective is skewed by the fact I lead teenage groups at work but I think we should at least try it out before deciding it's not a good idea.
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I do like the idea, particularly for the tween/teens. Perhaps there could be subgroups by age? It sounds like there are a lot of 12s. I also have a D12 who is interested in talking to others.
I like the idea of Skype. The complicating factor is time zones.
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Interesting idea. Definitely have my attention in regards to my D13. Still not sure though. I will be discussing this with others in my support structure.
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Hi there,
As mum to D3 and S8 and LBS since May 2012 I am happy to say that my children are doing okay. I have been very sad but I put on a happy mask for my children everyday and now I don't need the mask anymore and I wear a very happy smile and laugh loads with my kids regardless of what is happening with my MLCer.
What I wanted to do was to collect some resources of information about divorce, separation and the effects on children. Everything I read in the press seems to accept this is part of life and that so long as you make sure you divorce happily and amicably the kids will be fine. A mediator stated to my H and I that the research shows that it is not divorce that is damaging to children but the conflict between parents upon divorce.
I have to say that in my experience of being married to a man for 14 years, whose parents divorced when he was 15 without any overt conflict, I absolutely have to say that it IS the divorce that devastates. Divorce does impact hugely on the kids ... I want to read that in black and white rather than rely on my observations and conversations with adults who have been through it.
With my S8 I see an increased anxiety, my D3 is very clingy. But generally they are accepting the situation, even embracing it! Which I find bizarre tbh. My S8 talks about his grandparents being divorced and living with new partners and so it is being presented to them as normal that their Dad has left their mum and is now in love with someone new.
I am sure there will be more difficulties ahead but so far the kids are dealing with it okay I think.
I wonder what others experiences are?
Here are some links I have found on the subject, a major report was published here in the UK in June this year which talks about the tsunami of divorce .. it is hard hitting:
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/UserStorage/pdf/Pdf%20reports/CSJ_Fractured_Families_Report_WEB_13.06.13.pdf
This article is about the BBC documentary aired here in the UK it's a good summary of the interviews with young people of divorced parents.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2411830/What-divorce-really-does-children--shattering-words-If-youre-divorced-thinking-testimony-shake-core.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357192/Divorce-The-terrible-toll-making-divorce-easier-Children-likely-violent-drugs-underage-sex.html
And finally an article that tells us:
For the parent who divorces with a child, the priority is establishing a sense of family order and predictability. This means observing the three R's required to restore a child's trust in security, familiarity, and dependency - Routines, Rituals, and Reassurance.
Thus parents establish household and visitation Routines so the child knows what to expect. They allow the child to create Rituals to feel more in control of her life. And they provide continual Reassurance that the parents are as lovingly connected to the child as ever, and are committed to the making this new family arrangement work.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/surviving-your-childs-adolescence/201112/the-impact-divorce-young-children-and-adolescents
This is what I have tried to do since MLC struck. And I think it has paid off, the kids are okay so far. H thinks he is super dad and has been instrumental in the children's smooth transition ... after all he has saved us all from this abusive, toxic atmosphere we were all painfully exposed to :o :o :o :o (That's the MLC rewriting of history part that isn't covered in any of these articles! ;))
Any ideas, thoughts, articles, research etc... would be avidly read by me, I really want to do my very best for my children despite these horrid circumstances.
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THANK YOU!!!!
An amazing amount of time goes into the research you did! I REALLY feel these kids bear the brunt of all of this...it's hard to put on a "happy face" and fake it. I admire you for being able to do that in the face of all this.
I know I was NOT capable of doing it. I wish I had a second chance at that but I really needed to enforce NO CONTACT in order to have done it.
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Hi in it, I have to say that I haven't always been able to hide my pain. Looking after the children on my own is tiring and when he first left it was frightening. One of the things I could never get my head around when I double checked I had locked the doors at night was how any man could leave his family so vulnerable, so exposed? but alas, they do it all the time. So many of my S8s class mates have been abandoned by their fathers, sorry if I am not mentioning mothers abandoning, I know that they do. I suppose I am surrounded by women who have been left.
I have cried in front of the children at times which I actually think is normal and healthy tbh. I am honest and say that I feel sad that Daddy has gone or that I am very tired and that can make me sad, which it really can!
I think dealing with MLC is a much bigger deal than a normal situation of father leaving though. The pain for the LBS is enhanced because of the blaming and projection not to mention the denial. So I too have gone NC as far as I can with children. I never contact him unless it's absolutely necessary and when he comes and picks up the kids we don't really speak to one another other than my breezy hello, etc. H has been openly rude, ignorant and bullyish to me in front of the kids and I have just maintained a calm response everytime. As soon as he left after BD something swept over me, I became utterly calm when he talked to me. It was automatic and almost a kind of "there is no use arguing, there is no use fighting he has gone." So I think that has helped the children, I haven't had the locks changed like many people said I should, I haven't denied him entry or discussed anything in front of the children. He has said some inappropriate and unpleasant things which the children have overheard and my son in particular has become upset and frightened but i have supported him and cared for him. Much of what we do as parents is damage limitation and if you felt it was necessary to go NC then that is the best decision for you and your children. I know that you experienced some major monster outbursts and so protecting your child from those is essential. We need to model to our children that under no circumstances is it okay to put up with that from another person.
Both come into bed with me, this ties in with the regression that the article from Psychology Today refers to. Most of my friends who have had partners leave have said one or all their kids started sleeping with them. I have been told by H that it needs to stop but I have calmly said that I will not turn the children away or make them feel in any way abandoned, I am here to ensure they feel safe and secure as much as possible. I asked my S8 yesterday why he wanted to sleep with me and not in his new room and he said "because it makes me feel safe." .... That says it all.
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Wow toughtimes, this is brilliant.
I so wish we could share this information with MLCers, although it won't do any good, I realise that. But to me, it just reinforces what i thought. I have tried to explain to H (before being on this site) the effects and he thought that was just tall stories from others, despite the fact my parents divorced at 15 and his parents are still married after 42 years.
I have cried in front of the children at times which I actually think is normal and healthy tbh. I am honest and say that I feel sad that Daddy has gone or that I am very tired and that can make me sad, which it really can!
I agree and to an extent, it also allows my Ds to do the same.
For the parent who divorces with a child, the priority is establishing a sense of family order and predictability. This means observing the three R's required to restore a child's trust in security, familiarity, and dependency - Routines, Rituals, and Reassurance.
Thus parents establish household and visitation Routines so the child knows what to expect. They allow the child to create Rituals to feel more in control of her life. And they provide continual Reassurance that the parents are as lovingly connected to the child as ever, and are committed to the making this new family arrangement work.
This jumped out at me because this is what has been more overriding desire to achieve. D12 loves a good rule and boundary; it makes her feel safe and security so any instability leads to such anxiety within her, but trying to get this across to H is so hard.
Once again, thanks Toughtimes, this thread is going to be so useful.
xxx
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WOW TT...good for you!
You should be very proud of yourself! As in it says, and is right,...an amazing amount of work goes into this research, and you did it all for the love that you have for your babies. Not to mention, you did to help others here too! I agree with you it's the DIVORCE that devastates our children's hearts.
I can speak form experience. My parents divorced when I was 5, B6 & S3. My dad was a WAlk away. I remember him thinking he was so cool. Living with OW, (several) and just doing crazy crap! I hating going to stay with him. The worse thing was, the questioning when we returned from our weekend with dad. The fighting back and forth between the families was unbearable for us kids. Unfortunately, my B52, still feels the scars of the D. He still speaks to my mom of his horrible memories, the divorce, and how he always hoped his mom & dad would get back TOGETHER. I know now how my mom must have felt, he H just walked away, she had 3 little babies to care for, on her own. She is the strongest woman I know! She is wonderful, she is my MOM!
My mom remarried a wonderful man, my step dad. He raised us 3 kids as his own, he was 21 years old when he met my mom, we had a wonderful life. They have been married for 45 years now!
As for my dad, I got to know him well in my adult life, he was a very kind, funny and gentle man. I forgave him, and love him. About 1 month before his unexpected passing he expressed how sorry he was for how he treated his kids, and my mom. My dad NEVER FORGAVE himself, and now he is gone.
TT, IMO you are doing great! You love your kids, and it shows, they will always know this and they will trust in you, and know they are safe with you. this is BIG! Keep up the good work!
Beautiful Heart~
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Hi in it, I have to say that I haven't always been able to hide my pain. Looking after the children on my own is tiring and when he first left it was frightening. One of the things I could never get my head around when I double checked I had locked the doors at night was how any man could leave his family so vulnerable, so exposed? but alas, they do it all the time. So many of my S8s class mates have been abandoned by their fathers, sorry if I am not mentioning mothers abandoning, I know that they do. I suppose I am surrounded by women who have been left.
When he kicked me out and got the divorce I felt the same way scared and just devastated I always felt somewhat "safer" from the outside world if he was there.
I remember my legs being so stiff from fear when I woke up in the mornings I could barely walk. I prayed every night I prayed for 2 hours and 1 hour after I woke up I'd lay in bed and pray.
Both come into bed with me, this ties in with the regression that the article from Psychology Today refers to. Most of my friends who have had partners leave have said one or all their kids started sleeping with them. I have been told by H that it needs to stop but I have calmly said that I will not turn the children away or make them feel in any way abandoned, I am here to ensure they feel safe and secure as much as possible. I asked my S8 yesterday why he wanted to sleep with me and not in his new room and he said "because it makes me feel safe.
GOOD there's always been a stigma on a "family bed" per se but my D20 (who was 17 at the time) slept with me the whole time he was dragging everybody through the destruction of the family. We'd lay there all night and talk and cry and I'd rub her back and try to assure her everything was going to be OK.
But that didn't happen ... I went back with them....he kicked me out again 4 months ago..assaulted me and gave me a dismissed order of protection against the kids. I haven't even talked to the kids yet; one email that's about it. They are with him.
You do whatever you can to give comfort to the kids YOU ARE AN EXCELLENT MOTHER!
I'm not afraid of much anymore since this happened I enjoy living by myself. Whatever the kids decide to do whenever...they do.
I've had to make a lot of decisions and not include them in my plans which makes me very, very, sad but I couldn't wait around for them to figure themselves out.
They have missed a lot seeing what a woman is capable of in regards to picking up pieces of a mess I didn't make. But things are just fine.
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As soon as he left after BD something swept over me, I became utterly calm when he talked to me. It was automatic and almost a kind of "there is no use arguing, there is no use fighting he has gone.
I did the same thing, which was totally opposite to how I was for over 20yrs with H. Something just happens doesn't it.
I feel that we can't even go the route of looking at our situation like a "normal divorce", because it isn't. Good that our kids are older, 11 and 15, and have seen H for themselves, and live the fact that the dad who called them daily when he was away, has now been gone for over a year, and ignores them as if they don't exist. There is no visitation, except the twice or so he wanted to see them and get some of his stuff. He recently emailed twice to indicate that while he was within driving distance, he wasn't going to see them :o, and then another saying can't see them this time, but mentioned a date "he would like to meet with them" :o ::).
Took kids to see psychologist just to see if we were on track, and ends up we are, thankfully. I think that might be from discussing things as they happen, and being real and upfront, and never hiding things. As well, we have no other family members, so the kids have only really had me and their dad, and been that way all their lives, and with him working away, I've been the one in their lives. I've always been real with them, and they trust me 100%, so when I say dad left because of dad, and not us, they believe me.
H has shown such despicable behaviour towards us all, that in some ways, it has helped the kids detach. They didn't have a choice. We all wish it had never happened, but no-one wants to be around the man he has become. Him getting married helped tremendously :o. Not sure how we would be if he was a clinger, really don't.
As awful as his actions have been, in a way, they have also helped. It is so much easier to detach from someone acting like he has, and a man who was close to us, that ran away to live a life where no-one knows him, literally.
A lady psychologist called recently to check in on things, and as I mentioned on here a few weeks back, her parting words were that as long as mom is okay, the kids are okay.
This MLC experience is dreadful, and the craziness of it all, adds to the pain. I think we just have to find what works for us, and go with it, and bounce things off other LBSs on this board if we need to. No-one else understands or can relate. I would feel that all we can do is be there for the kids, and take it day by day.
I refuse to let this destroy our children. If H wants this, then he can have it, and go away and live his life. The damage he has done cannot be repaired, especially what he did to the kids, but we are all better than that, and he cannot determine our future. He's doing a pretty good job of making sure we go without, ie money, etc., but overall, he can't destroy our spirit. We are so much happier than he will ever be. I'm thankful that we are able to enjoy being with each other, and laugh every day, even when there's good reason to not. The kids and I are quite happy, except for when he is in touch.
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My children have seemed to adapt to this change surprisingly well. I hid a lot of my initial emotions from them and tried to keep the 3 Rs in our life and family helped a lot. Lately with the money issues coming up the kids hear and see this and I have to learn to address this with them without making them worry. The kids need to hear some truth but they also need to be carefree and without the adult stresses.
I have no idea how the baby will fair in the end. H has never given her the time of day and still has not taken her out. The two older children 7 and 10 enjoy their time with h, this is time h never gave them while he was home, i guess it can be seen as a positive. The kids know I am their everything and dad is just fun and not really active in their lives.
Snowdrop total agree... If mom is okay, kids will be okay. My kids feed off my emotions and the money has stressed me out, kids see that and react.
I really wish the kids could keep their home and stay at their school but h is making this difficult for us. This might have a negative impact on the kids. I am trying to keep the idea of a move a fun thing and will involve them in the decisions.
I try to keep my emotions in check around the kids and explain things in a simplistic way. I will give them the facts but always reassure them. The kids need to know things and not kept in the dark. My S10 seems to get stuff but D7 is a bit more confused. This is not easy stuff knowing what is too much for them to know. Right now I am following their lead and going from there. As they get older their understanding will change and hopefully I can explain and help these kids to become healthy well adjusted adults with little FOO issues.
I have had it out with h a few times while the kids where around, in another room. I have had to explain to the kids why mommy was upset with dad. They seem to get this but now that I am healed no more confrontations with h. I will try to keep the stress levels of the kids as low as possible.
Thanks TT for the links...I will have to do some reading. I have to attend a parenting after divorce class next weekend. Maybe learn something. ;)
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Most of my friends who have had partners leave have said one or all their kids started sleeping with them
My S10 has been insistent that I sleep with him. Usually I just lie with him until he falls asleep then I go to my room. Sometimes if he wakes in the night, he calls for me or comes into my room and I don't discourage it. He needs security.
With my S8 I see an increased anxiety, my D3 is very clingy. But generally they are accepting the situation, even embracing it!
My S10 is doing this too. Accepting of the situation, but I see the anxiety and clinginess. The one thing he does NOT tolerate is another person in the mix. When H tried to introduce ow to S10, S10 went ballistic. He did the same thing when I had dinner with a male friend, even though he knew this person and there is no romantic interest at all.....
I have tried to explain to H (before being on this site) the effects and he thought that was just tall stories from others, despite the fact my parents divorced at 15 and his parents are still married after 42 yea
The problem is that for every article we can find supporting the destruction divorce does to children, our H's could find one saying that it doesn't. I do believe that it is horribly destructive to children for their parents to divorce. The selfishness of society in this day just wants to turn a blind eye to it in order to have permission to be narcissistic.....
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I have to attend a parenting after divorce class next weekend. Maybe learn something.
As much as I dreaded going to the one I had to attend, I actually found it quite interesting. Nothing new, but good to hear reminders. Out of the whole room, there was only one other lady and myself who had children ignored by their fathers. Sad though that they had to speak of avoiding conflict when possible, and maybe don't come into the house to get the kids, etc., meet them outside.
Interesting to hear other people's stories, and lots of :o :o :o as you want to slide in your seat after hearing some people who are so aggressive and angry.
In the one I went to, they played some short videos of children being interviewed, and I sobbed and cried huge tears, you know the ones that won't stop, and roll down your face like when you were 6 years old - sadly, like our kids have done recently. Only one in the room, front row, and bawling. It was so, so sad to watch, and just triggered something in me when I saw their pain. Had to go to the front row as I started at the back, then some guy came and sat by me who'd fallen into his aftershave bottle :(
Wondering if you too will get the "perfect guy" in the room, who always answered with how great and fair he is being, and how he's always considering the kids, etc., but you can feel underneath what he is saying, and sense he is a bit of an a$$. Who knows eh? Obviously I'm not the best judge of character lately when it comes to men ;D
The one I went to was 9 to 4, but they cut short the breaks so we could leave early. I actually enjoyed it, especially after dreading it for so long. Such a full course we have to wait months here for a spot, and without it, a court can refuse to hear your case. Hope you "enjoy" it too. Amazes me how out of the two of us, H can be exempt from attending due to where he lives >:(, and he's the one who really should have gone. Oh well. It wouldn't make a difference anyway. As I sat there, I thought of him when they mentioned some spouses keeping their kids away from their dad, and he's tried that line with his lawyer. I thought how he would only hear that out of everything said in the course, and hang onto it. ::)
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TT
I have been told by H that it needs to stop
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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This is so good for us to share our experiences, what works and what doesn't. Thanks so much everyone.
I am with my friend and her two boys, her H left long time ago, MLC as we now know! We are just talking of pros and cons being alone ... Of course mostly cons but there are a few pros, no bickering, nagging and we can do things our own way! No consolation in any way, but after a couple of glasses of wine our natural instinct is to look on the bright side! ;-)
Hugs to all you wonderful mums you are all gorgeous!
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As they get older their understanding will change and hopefully I can explain and help these kids to become healthy well adjusted adults with little FOO issues.
Mine are a little older and I am concerned with the psychological damage they are absorbing being with him for the last few months.
Well if and when I see them again I'll be able to tell. And hopefully be able to show them what a healthy EMOTIONALLY and MENTALLY person I am compared to him. Again I didn't do this for THEM. It just happened and NO CONTACT was the answer in order for me to heal and that was MY idea believe me.
He wanted to play more games? I stopped that IN IT'S TRACKS.
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Hey TT,
You know this issue is something so very close to my heart. I have put my kids best interests at the heart of every decision I have made during the last 4 years. My exH is an MLCer to the 't' and his behaviour is still out there and weird even 4 years later!
I have an amazing friend who gave me some very good advice at the start of this in that she told me that as long as I was ok and that my kids see their Dad 'regularly and consistently' then they will be ok. MLCer's are right when they say that kids are resilient but this statement is only true as long as lots of other things are in place to support them during a time of great change. My exH uses this kind of statement to justify his behaviour and also I believe in some stupid way he believes it - he sees two well adjusted kids who are in touch with all of their family and he firmly believes that he is the one who has made this happen. This belief is very frustrating from my perspective but it is further proof my his delusional thinking in my view. The thinking he clings to for dear life because to think anything else at this stage would open up a Pandora's box.
These books might not be exactly what you're looking for but I mention them because the impact of divorce on children hurts for generations, anything I do today will reap dividends for generations in my view. I read Gary Chapman's 5 Love Languages - all of them!! and they have been amazingly helpful and practical to ensure my kids feel loved by me.
I also read Silent Sons and Terence Real's books on depression, these were invaluable in spurring me on to ensure I behaved in a consistent way with my children day in day out, when I was tired and fed and when I was happy! I have read books about passive aggression and how to spot it in people and how to avoid it as a coping strategy - as well as books on dealing with manipulative people - these helped me model my behaviour towards my exH and other situations so that I showed my children there are many ways of dealing with adversity and hard situations.
updated with these 2 after original post:-
I also read 'They F*** You Up' by Oliver James, this is well worth the read - he is a UK psychologist and describes how we have been raised and the impact on our children. It is physically impossible to raise two siblings in exactly the same way, which helped me not only understand the dynamic between my 2 children but also between me and my sister a bit more! Philip Larkin wrote a very simple poem by the same name and is worth looking up - but it does have swear words!!
I also downloaded a document by Judith S Wallerstein PhD and Julia M Lewis PhD, called 'The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce' which was a 25 year study. Hard work but shows what we do today can make a very real difference to how our children navigate their parent's split.
I remain uber vigilant about maintaining good communications with my kids because they are growing up quickly and being a teen is not an easy ride. I have to say one of the most significant things I did was 'stand' - this gave me a healing period and also showed my kids that I wasn't going to abandon them too.
This is a great discussion because we often focus on the MLCer and our hurt in the context of the breakdown of our relationship. Children are victims in all of this too and discussions like this share choices which we can use to help our kids.
((Hugs))
P
xx
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I believe in some stupid way he believes it - he sees two well adjusted kids who are in touch with all of their family and he firmly believes that he is the one who has made this happen. This belief is very frustrating from my perspective but it is further proof my his delusional thinking in my view.
The former mlcer used to say what a good job we did with them...well that was almost true... until he went down the rabbit hole BIG TIME.
When you do a good job I've found out someone else will claim the credit..but if something isn't right you're the one to blame.
Keep those kids in the forefront for as long as possible.
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I was on page one when I read this:
Obviously I'm not the best judge of character lately when it comes to men ;D
Thanks for the chuckle this morning..I wonder about mine also....
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Hi TT,
What a good thread! Here are some articles I probably found on here a while back:
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/meetingyourchildsneeds/f/Should-You-Tell-Your-Child-About-The-Affair.htm
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700140213/Its-not-just-about-the-couple-infidelity-can-cause-lasting-damage-to-children.html?pg=all
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/05/28/arnold-schwarzeneggers-affair-how-infidelity-affects-the-kids.html
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Here's three more:
http://www.americanvalues.org/html/r-unhappy_ii.html
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-10-20/opinions/35278848_1_divorce-rate-divorce-process-divorce-cases
http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/dont-even-think-divorcing-until-220600180.html
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TT,
Now I've finished going through my 150+ pages of MLC documentation. Here's the most recent on divorce and kids, from yesterday's Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2417816/D-I-V-O-R-C-E-The-kids-arent-alright--Grown-children-divorced-families-say-effects-parents-split.html
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Mentioned on here before when I took kids to see psychologist, he asked me to get them to draw a picture of their family at Christmas time, then a few days later, I was to ask them to draw a picture of their family today.
I thought he would be looking for smiles, etc in the drawings, but not at all, he was looking for any symbol of their dad. He said that often, children will put the spouse who left, somewhere in the picture if they are still not quite understanding the parent has left, or their role. He said sometimes it might be a big part of the drawing, but sometimes just a little something resembling them in a corner.
Interesting.
My kids did all of us plus pets, and not a single symbol of H. Phew!
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My kids did all of us plus pets, and not a single symbol of H. Phew!
Snowdrop, D10 did this too! About a month after BD, she was drawing a picture of the family - Me, D12, her and our kitten, Wilbur. No mention of H at all. Similarly at counselling last week, they talked about the family tree and Ds had to draw a line from themselves to those family members they felt closest to.
Both put me as number 1 :)
My mum as number 2
My sister in law as number 3
H as number 4. :o
No mention of my ILs at all!!
Very strange how things change for them...
xxx
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CB, Wilbur, ;D, how cute is that!
Then, on the grand scale of things, if it is a representation of what she feels, maybe she is doing pretty good? Or as "good" as the word can mean in all this awful mess. Maybe she is processing in her own way, on her own schedule, which I would think is the better way? I don't have a clue. She's got a good mom who loves her, and shows a solid way of life, so how can she go wrong. Imagine if our H's had the kids :o :o :o :o ::) ::) :'( :'( :-\ ??? >:( :(
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Wilbur from Charlotte's Web - I know he was a pig, but we just loved the name :)
If you had seen the gifts H bought back from holiday, I would be very scared to let him loose buying anything for Ds at all, let alone look after them. Clearly HER influence as he always had such great taste - til he met her - he he ;)
xxx
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A week ago today, a little girl in my son's year at school (grade 1/2) passed away after a few days of meningitis. In the school's notice about this, the counsellor posted the following website:
http://www.novita.org.au/content.aspx?p=441
There are often questions asked on her about how much we should allow our children to know what we are going through. So I thought this information may help some of you make those choices regarding your kids.
Here's an extract of the opening article:
Children and grief
In a letter to parents about children and grief Elizabeth Kubler-Ross (1983, p. 2)states: “They are aware of your pains and worries, your sleepless nights and concerns, and you should not hide them. Don’t go into their room with a false “cheerful” smile. Children cannot be fooled. Don’t lie to them that you just chopped some onions. How many onions are you going to cut? Tell them you are sad and sometimes feel so useless that you cannot help more. They will hold you in their little arms and feel good that they can help you by sharing comfort. Shared sorrow is much easier to bear than filling them with feelings of guilt and fear that they are the cause of your anxiety.”
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The truth will go a long way to forming a lasting bond. In grief and pain can be forged a closeness that IMHO cannot be broken.
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Yes, it really is amazing how children respond to adults.
My daughter was almost 2 1/2 when exH left. She saw me crying in the week before he was leaving and drew me a picture. As she was trying to give it to me, H was trying to stop her as I was on the phone to some one sharing my grief. I summoned that she could come to me and I will never forget that moment when my little girl, my youngest child reached out to me in that simplest of ways.
And almost 3 years later she's still drawing me pictures. Just got another one today, all wrapped up (I even needed to help he wrap it :) ) with her and I surrounded by love hearts.
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I soon realised that it helped my girls for them to be able to help me even in a tiny way like giving me a cuddle. They feel helpless too.
They don't need to know all the gruesome details but honestly sharing emotions and showing them that emotions are normal but temporary is a great life lesson.
What a tragedy for that little girls family
And what a blessing your own little girl is SP
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Oh she sure is SP. I mean I love my 3 boys and they give the best hugs...but she is also a joy in the darkness of MLC.
It does put everything in perspective when we hear about tragedies such as the one at school. I didn't know her personally but she was in my son's year and that really hits home then. Life is short and precious. She was also a staff member's daughter so the teachers are all in double shock.
There is a celebration of her life tomorrow with lollies, fairy floss, ice cream etc. Just the way she would want it and a great way for the kids to remember her and help with the grief process. I am just in awe of her parents who can put this on after losing their only daughter. We all believe in heaven and know she is there and that helps deal with it.