Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on July 17, 2013, 06:41:42 AM
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To all,
The previous thread had grown to over 150 posts
Discuss away!
previous threads:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3658.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3535.0 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3535.0)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2738.0 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2738.0)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2220.0 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2220.0)
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Thanks, OP! Always on top of these things :D
btw, heard that your SS is doing really well here - very well liked :)
Edit for name initials - OP - Thanks FHO!!
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QUESTION - Conseling
I went to see my IC today. He informed me W44 has requested a meeting.... she has requested we go to MC... I went to see her IC a few times (alone)... I believe she has not gone to see her IC more than 1 or 2x.
I'm guessing I am NOT to bring it up. I signed the HIIPA releases to my files. My commitment is to be solid and transparent.
Guessing/Validating... I am supposed to wait until either my IC contacts me or W44 brings it up.
What would you do?
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Hi, my lovely mentors!
I was wondering of it would be possible for one of you to carry out a conversation with me in private, via PM.?
There is a lot more to my story but for legal reasons I cannot speak about it on the boards and it needs to be told in strict confidentiality.
Thanks for taking the time to read my request and considering it.
Much love xx
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You can pm me.
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QUESTION - Conseling
I went to see my IC today. He informed me W44 has requested a meeting.... she has requested we go to MC... I went to see her IC a few times (alone)... I believe she has not gone to see her IC more than 1 or 2x.
I'm guessing I am NOT to bring it up. I signed the HIIPA releases to my files. My commitment is to be solid and transparent.
Guessing/Validating... I am supposed to wait until either my IC contacts me or W44 brings it up.
What would you do?
Yes I would wait for IC or wife to bring it up. What's HIIPA?
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Thank you, Calamity, PM sent xx
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What's HIIPA?
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) Privacy Rule is the first comprehensive Federal protection for the privacy of personal health ...
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HIPAA means we (hospital employees & health care professionals etc) can't tell anyone that a patient is in the hospital or what's wrong with them BUT the Enquirer can have Elton John entering rehab on the front cover. Photo shot from the bushes. :o :o :o
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Thanks. :)
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QUESTION - Conseling
I went to see my IC today. He informed me W44 has requested a meeting.... she has requested we go to MC... I went to see her IC a few times (alone)... I believe she has not gone to see her IC more than 1 or 2x.
I'm guessing I am NOT to bring it up. I signed the HIIPA releases to my files. My commitment is to be solid and transparent.
Guessing/Validating... I am supposed to wait until either my IC contacts me or W44 brings it up.
What would you do?
Yes I would wait for IC or wife to bring it up. What's HIIPA?
I signed paperwork that she had open access to my files... Without me being there
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New question.
Need some comfort and advice on my thread please! :'(
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3708.0
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I could really use some advice on how to handle my MLCer's lastest e-mails.
Thanks.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3759.0
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***New Question***
I am roughly 7 months from BD; OW is on the scene, H is still at home. The thing that has been driving me crazy is H's selfishness and total disregard for me. Trying to explain to H that he is being disrespectful just brings out Monster; he looks at me like I am the one being unreasonable. It is boggling, I am so use to being able to reason with H that I get completely flustered. Anyway, a couple of things that I brought up a few weeks ago about being disregarded/disrespected that H considered me to be irrational/unreasonable about he has done a 180 on. He has become understanding :o
Does anyone have any thoughts/ideas on why he would do this? Is he just cycling?
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Meaning --- How could he go from monster to understanding?
Maybe he realizes that being combative will just create stress and drama.
Maybe someone spoke with him...
Maybe he's moved on from projecting fault
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It is the first time in months that he seems rational; I just don't know what to make of it.
Maybe he realizes that being combative will just create stress and drama.
Maybe.......but it seems like he is enjoying the stress/drama. Not like him at all.
Maybe he's moved on from projecting fault
He hasn't projected fault or anything else onto me yet. That is something else that I have been thinking on.
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Mine cycled a lot between feeling things were unreasonable requests of him and getting that he was being insensitive. Thought he was out of the tunnel with that a year ago, but he picked up hot and heavy and now just tries to avoid as much as possible. Replay! Expect nothing - it's the only way to keep from being disappointed until the if/when point of them being out of the tunnel.
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Mine cycled a lot between feeling things were unreasonable requests of him and getting that he was being insensitive. Thought he was out of the tunnel with that a year ago, but he picked up hot and heavy and now just tries to avoid as much as possible. Replay! Expect nothing - it's the only way to keep from being disappointed until the if/when point of them being out of the tunnel.
I know he isn't close to coming out of the tunnel; this is just the first time that I have seen consideration in so long that it is alien to me ???
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I kind of think that he is worried that I might leave, hence, he is being more considerate. He definitely doesn't want me to go :o
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New Question
I was wondering how come I see the sad, drunk, crying, not wanting to live husband?OW gets the gi n do things with H, laughs, has fun together man.. I'm the one that should get all of that n I don't. It is hard knowing this and itmakes the days a lil longer. It'sdepressing and I miss them times I even miss the damnfighting with him. I wantthemdaysbackall of them, even the days where he is at wits end with me n vise versa..lol. I miss my husband.. Idk what stage he is in now..cause Idk how long he has been actually goin through this. How do I get my husband to want me back..I meanhe let's me see this one side of him and that must mean something, i would think anyway? Is he just fishing for me to make sure I'm still there or does he trust me enough to show kw us hurting? Idk if this is all just a show or not?
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OW gets the gi n do things with H, laughs, has fun together man.. I'm the one that should get all of that n I don't.
This drives me crazy too. Then when the OW isn't around he wants me to go out and have fun with him!!!!
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holdinon2hope you get to see the depressed not wanting to live husband because he cannot show that side of him to OW. But if OW stays around long enough she will end up see that side of him.
He has put a fantasy up to OW he needs to stick with it. Until the day he no longer can.
Searching, some MLCers need constant "fun" and things that make them feel high. If OW is not around they may want the wife to go and have "fun" with them. They crave the rush and can't stop going for it.
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That must be what it is cause he had me go to his n the Ow's house...he n I were both risking a lot and it was like he really didnt care. So do I go ahead and listen to him when he is in that mood or what do i do? I want him to know im here for him and I listen to him I just get sick of seeing that side. I wanna se the happy good side again...I long to he a family again. Thanks for the help :-)
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New Question
Hope i have inked the thread correctly
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3664.0;all
H has not put the usual money in my bank acc (None) , im not sure what to do if it does not come in , i really do not want to contact h , This is the longest i have gone as i always iniciate contact and h wants totally leaving alone
I Thought i might leave until monday , but how do i tackle this if its not on by then ?
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**New Question**
My H is living at home and I would like to purchase a few of the recommended MLC books to read but am not sure if I should let him see them or not. It is kind of hard to hide them and I really hate how I feel when I hide things. How do those of you with H's still in the house find the support that you need?
Any suggestions?
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***New Question***
I am roughly 7 months from BD; OW is on the scene, H is still at home. The thing that has been driving me crazy is H's selfishness and total disregard for me. Trying to explain to H that he is being disrespectful just brings out Monster; he looks at me like I am the one being unreasonable. It is boggling, I am so use to being able to reason with H that I get completely flustered. Anyway, a couple of things that I brought up a few weeks ago about being disregarded/disrespected that H considered me to be irrational/unreasonable about he has done a 180 on. He has become understanding :o
Does anyone have any thoughts/ideas on why he would do this? Is he just cycling?
Searching, I am 5 months past BD and I had monster for about 12 months beforehand, before I recognised it for what it was...He has turned considerate also within last few weeks and is a completely different personality- although not so much to give up OW.... I see it as progress in a way. My H is also at home.
As for the MLC literature, I would not let your H see it unless you think he would be open to any kind of suggestions of advice/help... My H came across (actually he went snooping into my stuff) my info on depression. It wasn't received very well and he became paranoid.
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Personally I read almost every book from the library.
Learned how to order books interlibrary loan, and they were all free.
I agree you should not show him this material.
Having an at home MLC'er is difficult.
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Thanks Panda!
Searching, I am 5 months past BD and I had monster for about 12 months beforehand, before I recognised it for what it was...He has turned considerate also within last few weeks and is a completely different personality- although not so much to give up OW.... I see it as progress in a way. My H is also at home.
Looking back I had monster for quite awhile before BD. You don't realize what it is until you have some distance from it. I am glad to see him being more considerate but I don't want to get use to it ??? He apologizes often and they seem sincere but everyone says "Don't believe anything they say and half of what they do". {shrug}
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Thanks OldPilot ;)
He has brought up the topic of MLC 3 times now on his own, always discounting it. I try to stay neutral when he does talk about it. I don't think that he is ready for it yet either but it is hard to lean on your support system with him home.
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I wouldn't show it... before I knew what I was doing, I put out some articles about emotional abandonment.
They were not received... they were ignored... her stuff was projected onto me.
Unfortunately you need to read these in your closet.
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Searching - I too have H at home 4 months after BD and OW definitely on the scene. Last night I forced an issue (poor timing) and was told that the marriage wouldn't work - too late.
Today - very friendly, calm nice interested (hovering really) until Monster when I came to go out to a party.
Not sure what he thinks of me deep down inside - I hope that it is because he doesn't want to lose me. But I know that he is losing me while he lives at home as I am exhausted with this game and Panda has had much more monster from her H.
It's horrible and every day is full of eggshells and splinters of glass from the moment you wake to bedtime and I find it sad that I now can't wait to go to bed but for all the wrong reasons - the main one being that I can cry if I want to......
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New Question
Background
I am new here but not new to MLC. We were not married but were together for 10 years and worked together. BD was 4/12. Found out new GF 8/12. In 9/12 he told me he loved her, she was his soul mate and he was going to marry her. 4/13 they were engaged and will marry this month. We still work together, however, for the past year he has been going down hill. Not showing up at work, lying and saying he was out on job sites, calling in sick. The company has lost quite a bit of money due to this and demoted him 3 weeks ago. This week it was announced he was out on "extended personal leave". He looks so depressed at work, unkept, can't focus. I had a friend go to his Fiancé's FB account yesterday after the announcement and it shows they have been out every nite till 1and 2 am living it up. She's so in loooooove with him.
Questions
1. Is he faking this? Can he really be one way at work and another way at home?
2. We don't talk. He makes no effort to contact me since October. When we interacted at work, sometimes he was aloof and other times awkwardly friendly. The only contact we have is if I send an email. I don't talk personal just tidbits of wisdom to let him know I'm still a friend. I haven't sent many, but he never responds. Am I just wasting my time? He's so in love with this girl and I think he blames me for his work woes.
3. It doesn't seem that many MLCers have the issues at work like what he is having.
Any thoughts on this?
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I am another vote for not letting him see the MLC material. I have a live in and I try to keep it out of his viewing. Yes, I have kept my MLC materials under the mattress. :)
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My MLC thinks he is in love with his OW but he is downloading apps on his phone for chat sites and dating sites this week. (he is not aware that I am aware of any of this).
I don't understand.
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He is confused like all MLCers and needs lots of rush, feel good stuff and validation for as many women as he can.
Clearly he is not in love with OW no matter what he says.
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So he is going to be cheating on the OW, clearly not good for their relationship.
I agree with Anne
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I have been trying to find a link to Heartsblessings 6 stages if MLC but I am not having any luck. Can anybody help?
Thank you :)
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I have been trying to find a link to Heartsblessings 6 stages if MLC but I am not having any luck. Can anybody help?
Thank you :)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4.0
Post #7
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Thanks OP 'oh wise one' ;D
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So if he needs an ego stroking, a rush. What is it about me that is not good enough to provide that? Why does it have to come from strangers?
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Its almost like they want it validated by other women..they have us so they know we want them, they just need to know other women want them too. I was like that at 1 time when my H wasn't showin me enough attentiin, I eent n found it simewhere ekde where i didnt constantly have to ask do I look giid, do u love me, are u happy, ect... It sucks but there gonna do it no matter if thats akk u tild them 24-7. Hugs ti u
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Ok, so I read the detaching. How do u detach when u have kids? Do u tell the H everything u are goin to do, trip wise? My H seems to think I need to discuss everything were gonna do if it concerns S11 n us leaving town. Idk if I like him knowing everytjing were doing...not that its anything bad n he is in no way in harms way n I dint have hum around other ken as i am Standing. I just don't know how to detach n still have to explain what were doing?? Any advice would be great and appreciated. Also H is not talking to me now..is this normal that he just quits taljing to me n H says he all of a sudden quit drinking and smoking..is this also notmal?
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Hi holdinon2hope.
My H is at home and we have children. The way I approach it is 'H, I am taking the children away on xxxx - any issues please shout'....or 'parents evening is on xxxx - let me know if you are coming.' But day trips etc, if he is not around etc, I do not mention.
Re the stopping drinking & smoking - I expect that is a way of getting control in his life...not sure, just my opinion.
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Yea, i can do that..n he has been drinking everyday since he left so it was a shock to hear expecially if its true. Thanks panda :-)
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I have the same problem. Not only do we have three kids, they are in baseball, softball, things at school, etc. we are at everything together. He comes not for his kids, but to show off to his fiends that are the coaches. I am on a baseball trip, on my weekend, and he came. None of Hesse people like me and I am all alone watching him laugh and drink and be the fun one. I sit with no one, wishing I could be a part of everyone with him. They took a group pic and I didn't even bother to get in it. I sit here with tears filling my eyes and have at times gone off to cry and wiped the tears and come back. Ever since I found out about OW he has been nice. Not sure if it's a cocky nice that now he feels surpirior that he is better, or that he wants to show her how he treats me better, or if he's confused. It's hard for me to be nice back and not sure what I am supposed to do. Any advise? Sometimes I think if I just shower him with love, attention, and make him think he is so needed, he will come back to me. I real don't know what he's like with the OW.
Could I be ll wrong and he will go on with her and be happy because I was just not the right person for him?
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Disneyme,
I think there's no amount of showering them with love because they don't love themselves so how can they possibly accept true love from someone else. The relationship with OW isn't love, it's infatuation and love.
Plus you'll be trying to interact with someone that you don't even know right now. Remember how once the MLCer starts his journey into the tunnel everything is "opposite day". What was important to him and what he valued pre-MLC is totally different now and I think the LBS will be wasting their time even trying to figure out what is important to their runaway.
Nothing that you do right now is going to "fix" him and make him turn back to you. If he really is in MLC the problem isn't with you and the problem isn't with your marriage. The problem is within him and nothing will change until he's able to resolve those issues.
Stop even worrying about the OW. She is NOTHING but a symptom of the bigger issues going on within him. How can a relationship built on cheating and deceit possibly survive? Sure it may go on for some time, but will it last as long as your relationship with him? Does she have the history with him that you have? Part of the allure, I am convinced, with the OW is that they can re-invent themselves to be whomever they want to be. If it doesn't work out, on to OW2 and re-invent yet again.
Please take good care of yourself. I worry that you are sitting off to the side from everyone else. Surely there must be one person in the crowd that you can bond with. At BD last year I didn't even want to come out of my house because I felt like such a failure. We are NOT failures. We are SURVIVORS!
My son told me last year, soon after BD, that at least he had one stable parent that he could rely on. You need to be that stable parent. Let your MLCer flutter in the wind.
Hugs!
J.
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Hi Disneyme,
Next time you are with your h somewhere, make sure you look hot, act like you are having the time of your life, smile & laugh your head off. I know you don't feel like it, but act!!! Fake it til you make it. :) Yes it is game playing but, you didn't ask to be in this situation so play well. If nothing else you'll feel better about yourself if he never sees you weak.
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DancingInTheRain
I have read the articles and I understand the MLC is about them and OW is a bandaid or quick high to feel better about themselves. But mine will be married to her at the end of this month after knowing her less than a year. He loooooooves her like he's "never loved anyone else". Now what? If she is a bandaid when will he realize this is about him?
BO. (Wow, I like that signature). 8)
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Now what? If she is a bandaid when will he realize this is about him?
That is what we all would like to know about our MLCers. Some MLCers jump from OW/OM to OW/OM, some change their behaviour, others stick in the same path for ages.
It can take a while until he founds it is him. Before he realises that he needs to use every other avenue.
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Thanks AnneJ
Mine seems to have found just one and stuck with her as his "soulmate". Maybe she is....who knows :'(. Once they are married I don't think he'll ever turn back. As everyone one here knows first hand, it's just hard not to take it personally and feel discarded like you didn't matter.
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I don't think there is one LBS that hasn't said or at least thought, my MLCer is different.
Once my MLCer makes up their mind it's all set.
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I have read the articles and I understand the MLC is about them and OW is a bandaid or quick high to feel better about themselves. But mine will be married to her at the end of this month after knowing her less than a year. He loooooooves her like he's "never loved anyone else". Now what? If she is a bandaid when will he realize this is about him?
Since you have read the articles, this may not be anything new. But let me provide you some encouragement in a few ways.
Marrying the alienator is not an indicator of the MLCers ability to love. MLC is emotional and developmental in nature. That includes the ability to love......and that includes the ability to love one's Self.
I understand deeply and personally what it's like for the MLCer to marry the alienator. My MLCer did. My friend's MLCer did.
My friend's MLCer also divorced the alienator about 18 months later. She then found OM #2, but has now returned to my friend. She was gone just shy of 5 years.
Some input from RCR
MLC is a crisis. It is specific to the individual in MLC; it is not about the spouse and it is not about the alienator. The alienator is just a convenient and willing player on stage.
Many times the alienator is part of the regression that is MLC. The alienator in my friend's situation was his MLCers boyfriend from high school. She hadn't seen him in 25 years......and married him in less than a year, and as I mentioned above divorced him 18 months later.
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DGU, I do not remember if you have post to twilightzone thread http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3770.0 If you have not, could you be so kind to post your friend's and his MLCer story on his thread?
Twilight's wife left to be with her HSSH that she has not seen in 37 years, since she was 17. I think your friend's and his MLCer story could be of help.
Thank you.
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts and kindness. Things look bleak, encouragement is appreciated. :-*. If you could find the thread that would be great.
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New Question:
Would anyone be able to give any insight/opinion into why an MLCer would apparently now be focused on the children? H is spending alot of time with them and taking them places / interracting in a way I have not seen for about 2 years... In addition to this, there are now lots of planned visits to his parents - not sure why he is going there so often. guilt?
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I wouldn't know Panda - but then again you did say that he was beginning to look at FOO issues. So maybe he is somewhere in the recesses of his brain, beginning to look into himself.
Possible movement in the tunnel maybe?
However - it is a big positive that he is beginning to focus on the children(even if it is temporary) - that must be evidence of something more than just cycling..
Perhaps the more experienced LBSers can shed light on this? I would be interested too.
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Panda,
I read somewhere on HS before that they first connect with the home/pets, then children, before they even begin to reconnect with the LBS.
I'm not saying that to get your hopes up. Remember, "No expectations". Just be thankful for the gift from God that he is trying to spend more time and attention with the kids.
Take care.
J.
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In addition to this, there are now lots of planned visits to his parents - not sure why he is going there so often.
Free babysitting? I am cynical about mlcer motives.
Yes it's a good sign that he's connecting with his children but, there are no signs. ???
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So I am assuming we had another touch and go and he has run back to the OW and his ways. This time though he is ignoring contact (texts and phone calls) and the children. This is not like him. Why would he be ignoring? I am almost 2 years in and this all this new behaviour lately is confusing.`
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Sometimes they go to a 'darker part of the tunnel'. The two year mark seems to kind of be the general rule for it. Embrace it as movement, and just let it be for now, and he will probably pop his head out to check back soon enough.
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This is not like him.
Midlife crisis is a crisis of identity.
Here is something RCR wrote that may be helpful.
He’s regressed to adolescence when he experimented with various identities. But remember none are real yet, though all contain bits of validity because they are pieces of him. Those pieces are often the bits and pieces he is rediscovering from his Shadow. When he gets to Liminality he will sort through them and decide which ones to keep.
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LWH, I will also concur with Ready. It seems to be quite common that around the two year mark the MLCer will distance themselves further. Many of us have experienced that. My H indeed distanced himself incredibly around that time and it continued for about two years before he started un-distancing noticeably. Just hang tight. As Ready says, he will stick his head out to check in again. It is very difficult but hopefully it will help to know it is all part of MLC.
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Difficult, devastating and destroying.
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New question......
Why do they seem to distance themselves around the two year mark?
What changes?
Nearly 32 months post BD....he's further away than ever...distanced himself from me and now our two Ss are feeling it too.
He's not seen our Ss since fathers day....he calls them once a week on a Fri....the calls are now coming quite late in the evening..after 10pm and only lasting 5/10mins max.
The longest he's gone without seeing our Ss was at the one year post BD mark, he never came near them for fifteen weeks. :-\
Thank you in advance ...poppy x
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New question......
Why do they seem to distance themselves around the two year mark?
What changes?
Nearly 32 months post BD....he's further away than ever...distanced himself from me and now our two Ss are feeling it too.
He's not seen our Ss since fathers day....he calls them once a week on a Fri....the calls are now coming quite late in the evening..after 10pm and only lasting 5/10mins max.
The longest he's gone without seeing our Ss was at the one year post BD mark, he never came near them for fifteen weeks. :-\
Thank you in advance ...poppy x
From the articles: MLCers may move on the spectrum--though they remain relatively static most of the time. When they move, they usually stay in a contact type for long periods. Some are Boomerangs in early and even late MLC but may Vanish once things seem finished--the divorce is final and either of you may have a new relationship. This may include vanishing from your children's lives. http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_contact-types.html
This crisis is built on its need for separation, and they do seem to reach a point where they need to go farther to test their choices. They are in denial of the life they had before, and for whatever reason (I think the big "why" is the million dollar question), they need to be without our judgment, accountability, or responsibility. Like a teen out on their own! This unfortunately creates an unstable environment for your kids, but you already know that he can't really be counted on. That's the one thing the earlier stages prepare you for.
He probably also has a lot of shame and guilt that is manifesting as this wall he is building to keep people from seeing him, and to keep his responsibilities low. It is not fair, but if it serves a purpose of showing him how awful life would be without you all (and gives you all an opportunity to learn you could truly survive and thrive without him), then it has done some sort of job in all of this.
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I have a better understanding now....
Thank you :)
Thinking back to the 15weeks he disappeared at the 1yr post BD.....perhaps he felt he'd survived a whole year without us....therefore he didn't need us??
Plus he'd found a new supply of money.....so maybe that had more to do with it! ::)
Well we are certainly surviving and thriving......so much has changed since he's been gone....ive changed....the boys have changed....our lives are moving forward without him....even our home has changed....nearly every room is completely different.....I'm unsure he would ever fit back into our family unit again.....
Thank you x
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New Question..
What usually happens around the 6-7 month post BD? H is saying its my fault he left. That the 1 affair I had was nothing compared to his 5 plus getting 1 woman pregnant and having an abortion..how Ia it my fault? My dad passed away in 2010 and things changed for the both of us..he withdrew, I left him then came back and he talks about the pain I caused him when I left him alone. Ik I hurt him n I have appologized for it. I came back because i loved him..lil over a yr later he leaves me. H was talking about revenge for what I did..that he never got his revenge on me or the guy. How do I talk to him or can I talk to him now? Ow has H so wound around her finger yet ik hr still thinks about our marriage cause H says if a lot. So Ik he thinks about it, I just wish I could get him to understand I didn't leave him for another man as he thinks I did, do to the fact he seen my pic on a dating site. I was done and I was moving on..or maybe u was just so confused i didnt know what to do? Idk, but I do know I love this man my H and I want him to know he is the only one for me..even tjough he has treated me like $h!te n cheated for yrs. Help please?!?!
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There isn't a hard and fast 'schedule' - just some general time frames that you can usually align as you look back. For MLC, 6-7 months is very, very early. Probably lots of Replay, the infatuation with the OP, and the kind of Monster antics you're talking about where you are still blamed for most things.
All you can really do is turn the attention toward yourself, securing your finances, and deciding the best course of action. There is a lot of unhealthy stuff here to heal from, and this can be a real opportunity for you to check out of his drama and find yourself. We all learn that at BD, our marriages are over. That doesn't mean we won't get an opportunity for a new relationship with the same person, based on a solid foundation we've laid with our shared past, but the quicker we can accept that there really isn't a 'going back' at this point, the better chance we will have to reconcile all that has happened to us amidst this.
His choices are his - you are not responsible for them, nor for his happiness or lack thereof. No marriage is perfect, even though some of us thought we were pretty close. I can promise you that if you let it, this pain you feel now will subside, and you WILL feel healthier, more powerful, and more *yourself* sooner than you think. That doesn't mean he isn't the one for you at all - I truly don't know what the story's end will be for you. But I know that through acceptance, I have created a more stable life for myself that may ultimately be the lighthouse my true love is drawn to (whoever that true love is - but I'd like to think it's the man I married).
{{{hugs}}} These are the hardest days, friend. It gets better.
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Great explanation R2T for all of us still walking around in the "dazed and confused wondering what hit us mode". Thank you.
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Another explanation of the distancing at the two year mark is that it is the darkest part of the tunnel. They cycle waaaaay more at the beginning and at the end of the crisis as they can see light at the end of the tunnel. I think they are not as sure about what they want (they feel the need to escape and avoid but yet I think there is a part of them that knows they shouldn't) and they show their confusion more at both ends of the tunnel, so they tend to not be as distant. In the middle of the tunnel they are so sure that this is what they want, don't want to be part of the family, etc., that they distance more then. All they see is the darkness in the tunnel Two years post BD is what RCR refers to as the "end of the beginning" of the crisis.
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From RCR's article Back Limbo Forward
In the beginning the light at the tunnel's entrance offers some clarity. As he goes farther it becomes darker and darker, but since they are not yet completely without light, they cycle. As he proceeds farther into the tunnel, the light at the beginning is no longer visible and the light at the end is not yet visible. Things get worse. The alienator relationship pulls him down. In the beginning he hated and loved you at the same time, often changing his mind every few minutes/days/weeks. Now, in the darkness, he seems even more certain he hates you, more consistent. He is gone without Hope of returning. He doesn't want to return. In this place of Perpetual Darkness he knows he made the right decision.
The Dark period can be very long. As he approaches the end of the tunnel he will see the light. He may cycle again--hating and loving you. The Rollercoaster is wildest at the beginning and end when they are making decisions. When he sees the light at the end of the tunnel, the damage also becomes visible. It may be so great that he runs again. Or he sees the Love and Hope in his spouse and becomes afraid.
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R2T, thanks..it does shed light on this sore subject. It's nice to know that maybe im not really to blame for all of this.. it gets old hearing I am though. :-[
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My H says he's fighting or his kids. For years h would be out all night playing poker yet now he wants to have his kids. Seems like this got worse after the OW got serious and is spending nights with him. Shouldn't he be wanting to be alone with her instead? Why want the kids and also be with her on those days? (she has no kids). When he has them they either go to adult things or have adult "BBQ's" sometimes poker parties. Also he has been inviting the lost relatives that the kids haven't seen in 2 years. The OW thinks this is so special. I think it's a fake lie!
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QUESTION - spouse meeting with my individual counselor
I'm in a strange spot. My W44 have frequent family time. It's fun and warm. From the outside it would appear as if we were still a functioning family.
A few nights ago, w44 told me she met with my IC and will appear at my next meeting.
"how do you feel about us just hanging out and being platonic."
Now here's the hint.....
"I think we should start over.... Go through all the paperwork.... Meet some other people... And start over."
Question.... What do I say at this meeting.
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Question
If you have no contact with MLCer who will they spew their venom at...OW/OM? Because you are out of the picture and they know deep inside they are still unhappy, who do they blame then? I'm assuming that deep inside they know they aren't happy, even when they are with OP, even though they are working so hard to prove it to themselves and others that they are.
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Question
If you have no contact with MLCer who will they spew their venom at...OW/OM? Because you are out of the picture and they know deep inside they are still unhappy, who do they blame then? I'm assuming that deep inside they know they aren't happy, even when they are with OP, even though they are working so hard to prove it to themselves and others that they are.
Venom is not predictable... pattern like.. but not predictable.
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QUESTION - spouse meeting with my individual counselor
I'm in a strange spot. My W44 have frequent family time. It's fun and warm. From the outside it would appear as if we were still a functioning family.
A few nights ago, w44 told me she met with my IC and will appear at my next meeting.
"how do you feel about us just hanging out and being platonic."
Now here's the hint.....
"I think we should start over.... Go through all the paperwork.... Meet some other people... And start over."
Question.... What do I say at this meeting.
If I'm reading this right it is that you want platonic and she doesn't even though you have a well functioning family. If so then I am in the same place you are. I'm looking for same advice in how to deal with this.
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Not quite... she wants to date and play friends.... after getting a D.
QUESTION - spouse meeting with my individual counselor
I'm in a strange spot. My W44 have frequent family time. It's fun and warm. From the outside it would appear as if we were still a functioning family.
A few nights ago, w44 told me she met with my IC and will appear at my next meeting.
"how do you feel about us just hanging out and being platonic."
Now here's the hint.....
"I think we should start over.... Go through all the paperwork.... Meet some other people... And start over."
Question.... What do I say at this meeting.
If I'm reading this right it is that you want platonic and she doesn't even though you have a well functioning family. If so then I am in the same place you are. I'm looking for same advice in how to deal with this.
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My H says he's fighting or his kids. For years h would be out all night playing poker yet now he wants to have his kids. Seems like this got worse after the OW got serious and is spending nights with him. Shouldn't he be wanting to be alone with her instead? Why want the kids and also be with her on those days? (she has no kids). When he has them they either go to adult things or have adult "BBQ's" sometimes poker parties. Also he has been inviting the lost relatives that the kids haven't seen in 2 years. The OW thinks this is so special. I think it's a fake lie!
My H's OW used to want my H to bring our S to their "get togethers". My theory is that the OW feels that once she can win over S, she will have my H's heart forever; that they will be one big happy family and he will not want to leave her. These OW are SICK in that they use the kids to get what they want. Sounds like your H's OW is pressuring him to have an "instant family" and she is using your kids to do that.
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If you have no contact with MLCer who will they spew their venom at...OW/OM? Because you are out of the picture and they know deep inside they are still unhappy, who do they blame then? I'm assuming that deep inside they know they aren't happy, even when they are with OP, even though they are working so hard to prove it to themselves and others that they are.
I found that my H only vented to me about how upset he was with his life and how unhappy he was. He didn't share that part of his life with others like he did with me - lucky me :). As a matter of fact, he kept away from all of his friends and family that knew him before his MLC, and made all new friends who agreed with what he was doing - typical.
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1994,
So means starting over with other people? Or with you?
Not quite... she wants to date and play friends.... after getting a D.
I am guessing this wouldn't sit well with you. If it is not what you want, then state so in counseling. That doesn't mean that she won't follow through with it herself, but you have every right to tell her that you don't agree. Is this a Christian counselor?
You may not be able to play friends with her or have any desire to do so if she goes through with a D. You could also state that - that family together times will not happen as friends.
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***New Questions***
Truth darts - I have come to the realization that my truth darts bring out Monster; does anyone else see this happening?
Living Arrangements - We discussed this over the weekend, I was frustrated and didn't know if I could I stay in our home, H made it very clear that he does not want to lose me or leave the home. I feel like H wants me to be the adult/parent while he is the teenager having fun. He wants to go on this adventure but wants me to be there waiting at the end of the tunnel. Is this part of MLC? Or is he really just a selfish a**hole wanting freedom? I wish I knew for certain that this was MLC and that I am not just being used ???
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Hello,
As a newbie myself with H living at home since BD 4 months ago H has said exactly the same to me. I have to witness him disappearing off daily to see OW and yet as he also works from home - I see him here most of the remaining time. However, legally if I leave the home and leave my S here, I could end up losing it even though I pay the mortgage and 85% of the bills. H is in the same legal position technically but if I leave it will be even harder for me to return as women leaving the home are stated to have abandoned the family. I have two friends who did leave and lost their case.
It depends on your legal rights where you live but realistically why should you leave when he is the one causing all the grief and pain?
Read and re-read everything you can on here, I know that one of the wise mentors will point you in a good direction for a link but reading one of RCRs blog articles on "should my MLCer stay or go" is a good start.
However know that you are not alone in having that conversation or feelings - there are quite a few of us exactly in that position.
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Truth darts - I have come to the realization that my truth darts bring out Monster; does anyone else see this happening?
Be careful with throwing truth darts in the beginning; it might be too soon for that. Truth darts are meant to help your H realize what he is doing; if they are thrown too early, they can push the MLCer further away. In the beginning, they don't want to be faced with what they are doing to their family; how much they are hurting people; they want to escape! So, watch the truth darts in the beginning. :)
Living Arrangements - We discussed this over the weekend, I was frustrated and didn't know if I could I stay in our home, H made it very clear that he does not want to lose me or leave the home. I feel like H wants me to be the adult/parent while he is the teenager having fun.
Yes, he is the child and you are the adult. Your H wants to have his cake and eat it too. Set some boundaries for yourself; protect yourself. Be sure to make it clear, if asked by your H, that these boundaries that you are setting are to protect yourself, not to hurt him.
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[Yes, he is the child and you are the adult. Your H wants to have his cake and eat it too. Set some boundaries for yourself; protect yourself. Be sure to make it clear, if asked by your H, that these boundaries that you are setting are to protect yourself, not to hurt him.
FH1 - fully appreciate what you say and it is extremely wise advice but what if the H refuses to leave home as mine does?
I have asked him and then told him that while OW is part of his life I will not be and he should leave. He refuses! The only boundary I have is to go dark and distance but it doesn't always work and I am having to detach with him here.
It is really difficult and I know I'm not the only one but if H refuses to go - it's very difficult in British Law to boot him out.
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Living Arrangements - We discussed this over the weekend, I was frustrated and didn't know if I could I stay in our home, H made it very clear that he does not want to lose me or leave the home. I feel like H wants me to be the adult/parent while he is the teenager having fun.
Yes, he is the child and you are the adult. Your H wants to have his cake and eat it too. Set some boundaries for yourself; protect yourself. Be sure to make it clear, if asked by your H, that these boundaries that you are setting are to protect yourself, not to hurt him.
Thanks FH1 ;)
I have started to set some boundaries; I hope that I am strong enough to uphold them.
Do we ever know if they are truly going through MLC while they are in the process? or is like most things that we don't really know until we can look back at it?
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Thanks FH1....
Truth darts - I have come to the realization that my truth darts bring out Monster; does anyone else see this happening?
Be careful with throwing truth darts in the beginning; it might be too soon for that. Truth darts are meant to help your H realize what he is doing; if they are thrown too early, they can push the MLCer further away. In the beginning, they don't want to be faced with what they are doing to their family; how much they are hurting people; they want to escape! So, watch the truth darts in the beginning. :)
Living Arrangements - We discussed this over the weekend, I was frustrated and didn't know if I could I stay in our home, H made it very clear that he does not want to lose me or leave the home. I feel like H wants me to be the adult/parent while he is the teenager having fun.
Yes, he is the child and you are the adult. Your H wants to have his cake and eat it too. Set some boundaries for yourself; protect yourself. Be sure to make it clear, if asked by your H, that these boundaries that you are setting are to protect yourself, not to hurt him.
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Read and re-read everything you can on here, I know that one of the wise mentors will point you in a good direction for a link but reading one of RCRs blog articles on "should my MLCer stay or go" is a good start.
However know that you are not alone in having that conversation or feelings - there are quite a few of us exactly in that position.
Thanks for the suggested reading :) Here is the link in case anyone else would like to read it: http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/communication/should-my-mlcer-stay-or-go/
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I just read the article/blog but I, like songanddance have a H who doesn't seem to want to go. Wants his teenage kicks with OW and to live in our house.....I am wondering, how long it will take him before he 'gets it' - roll on end of replay thats all I can say......meanwhile, I detach and barely speak to the man.
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I just read the article/blog but I, like songanddance have a H who doesn't seem to want to go. Wants his teenage kicks with OW and to live in our house.....I am wondering, how long it will take him before he 'gets it' - roll on end of replay thats all I can say......meanwhile, I detach and barely speak to the man.
panda/sonanddance- we are in very similiar situations :-\
I would also like to know 'how long it will take him before he 'gets it'"?
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Just to add, in a conversation with H I asked him 'If I was doing what you are, what you would you do?'...He said 'Clearly you would have to leave'.....So he recognises the behaviour is wrong, but still thinks about this all in the third person as if he isn't doing it at all!
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Ah but my H said the opposite..
When I said that if I openly carried on with another man and taunted H with it and still wanted to live at home - he would boot me out. (He threatened to do so when I had my brief fling - in fact his words were, and for the last 15 years have been etched on my brain " Give me one good reason why I shouldn't pack your bags and kick you out on the street for good and don't think you will be able to see the children ever again!")
So when I reminded him of that his response was " Ah but I didn't kick you out in the end"
" NO because I stopped immediately and have, for the last 15 years apologised and shown you how sorry I was and am. The difference is you haven't stopped and are still determined to see her. So would you have put up with it if I had carried on? "
To which he turned round and said " Yes!!!"
Talk about denial!!!!!!!!
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Just to add, in a conversation with H I asked him 'If I was doing what you are, what you would you do?'...He said 'Clearly you would have to leave'.....So he recognises the behaviour is wrong, but still thinks about this all in the third person as if he isn't doing it at all!
LOL........panda ;D
I had the exact same response from my H. He would in no way tolerate what he was doing if it was reversed!!!
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S&D, it is so difficult to live with a MLCer; especially one that refuses to leave when asked. Your best bet is to detach as much as you can; try to ignore his behavior (as hard as that may be), and treat him like a roommate. I know that it is a lot easier said than done, honestly, I have A LOT of respect for you LBS' that live with your MLCer. Do you have a strong support system? Are there places you can go should you feel the need to escape for a few hours? I went to my sister's house; she was my angel!!!
Do we ever know if they are truly going through MLC while they are in the process? or is like most things that we don't really know until we can look back at it?
S4A, all of us LBS' asked ourselves the same question - "Is it really MLC??" We all question the process from time to time. When we don't see much movement, or when our MLCer has started convincing the LBS that what he is saying is true - we question if this is MLC. It will become much more clear as time goes on, and as you detach more. The important part is to work on yourself - learn to love who you are again - learn to do things for yourself again - enjoy being with yourself :).
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Had a good weekend, S11 n I went down south Mo for baseballall-star games with best friend n 2 of her kids. Was hot but it was nice to get away. H text a cpl times and I'm still the one that pushed him away and didnt let him get revenge on the guy I had slept with during my 1 time 3 min revenge affair... I had a concience and got scared then left..cheating isn't my calling lol. N the 1 guy I was talking to he didnt get revenge on him either..for me talking to him, that'sit. H was saying he can tell I havent changed and thatI didnt answer his text until hrs later cause I was to busy with my new life and or my new man. How do u explain ur waiting on ur H to get better, that ur not messing around yet ur not sitting around dwelling on what he is doing with Ow.? It's like u answer to quick u must have been on ur phone and if u wait to long ur messing around. I dont understand...what is it this one time H wants from me? I miss him and want him back home but this is crazy... H alsi said this weekend is his with our S11 and I states he had a bday party n sleepover and H said what IM not as important as a party? N threw a fit n now thinks he isn't gonnatell me where he is taking our S11..he has lost his mind if hr thinks I won't know where my son is... How do I go about this all?
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3733.msg225026#msg225026
I am responding on your thread.
L
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Question - Does anyone have any insight into why they run from their children too?
My husband blames me for his lack of relationship with the children. ( I do know it is not me but it hurts anyways). He has always seem to maintain some sort of contact with them but now he is avoiding them and limiting his contact with them.
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I think it is mainly just wanting to run from their former lives and from responsibility. My H has all but ignored our kids for the past 4 years and has not acted like a "real" dad when he is around them. He basically told me once that he didn't want the responsibility of being a dad. Prior to MLC he was a great dad.
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I agree with Trusting; also, the kids are another reminder of what they are doing wrong, i.e., abandoning the family, so they avoid them in order to avoid feeling guilty.
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Intellectually I grasp this but now that I am living it, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how he is running from his children.
I have guilt, shame over everything. How my marriage fell apart, how I must have failed as a wife,lover,friend , how now I am failing my children as I cannot even provide for them the life they deserve as innocent parties to all this crazy. I don't want the cycle to continue for them. It is bad enough that my husband felt emotionally abandoned by his parents, he has now abandoned emotionally and physically his children. I have such guilt over this.
I can't seem to escape the guilt and shame I feel. There is nowhere I could run to or hide because it is in me. I can't seem to quiet the inner voice that says to me to love, pray and try to cope with all this crazy. How do they quiet the voices, how does the "love" of another quiet the noise. I am having trouble understanding but yet it has to be true or otherwise this wouldn't be happening, would it?
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LWH, I have struggled with guilt for much of the crisis too. It is unfounded because I had no way of knowing my husband would have a crisis, no way of knowing his childhood issues would cause him to go crazy someday. I have felt enormous guilt for having picked this man to be the father of my kids, to pick a man who would abandon them and put this ugly shadow over their childhoods, to allow my kids to be exposed to such pain and sadness.
I am getting better about not feeling guilty because I do keep reminding myself it is not my fault. I truly thought I had married a really great guy, emotionally stable, full of integrity. Indeed, he was like that for the almost 18 years I knew him before the crisis hit. Unlike an MLCer whose guilt keeps them running, it has caused me to really work on my relationship with my kids, trying to minimize the pain for them as much as I can, etc.
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We all have to take responsibility for what we could have done better in our marriages. Otherwise, we don't learn what we need to to better our lives. That being said, you could have done nothing to stop his journey through his MLC. All that you can do at this point, is to be the best mom to your kids that you can be. Easier said than done, since we are the walking wounded. It also puts so much extra weight on your shoulders because YOU often have to be mother, and father, while you are trying to just put one foot in front of the other. It's all so sad, and messed up!
Thinking of you, and praying for you. in His hands
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I have felt enormous guilt for having picked this man to be the father of my kids, to pick a man who would abandon them and put this ugly shadow over their childhoods, to allow my kids to be exposed to such pain and sadness.
Yes me too.
Someone on here said: those abandoned, abandon
and
hurt people hurt people.
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Can someone tell me about truth darts?
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LWH, I have struggled with guilt for much of the crisis too. It is unfounded because I had no way of knowing my husband would have a crisis, no way of knowing his childhood issues would cause him to go crazy someday. I have felt enormous guilt for having picked this man to be the father of my kids, to pick a man who would abandon them and put this ugly shadow over their childhoods, to allow my kids to be exposed to such pain and sadness.
I feel the same way. I will always wonder if I didn't treat him verbally like $hit maybe I wouldn't be this way. I just keep telling myself he was no knight. I do wonder if I was first if he would have returned the love. I feel he is treating the OW the way he should have treated me. They cook together, clean up together, meet for lunch. I was so tired of cooking and cleaning and 3 kids I wanted him to plan the "us" stuff that never happened, so I got mad and was mean. In his eyes he tried so hard. Said he always had to say sorry (yet never changed anything) . I don't know. My mind changes by the minute from guilt to anger to just pain.
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Can someone tell me about truth darts?
RCR does it best: http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/truth-darts/
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LWH, I have struggled with guilt for much of the crisis too. It is unfounded because I had no way of knowing my husband would have a crisis, no way of knowing his childhood issues would cause him to go crazy someday. I have felt enormous guilt for having picked this man to be the father of my kids, to pick a man who would abandon them and put this ugly shadow over their childhoods, to allow my kids to be exposed to such pain and sadness.
I am getting better about not feeling guilty because I do keep reminding myself it is not my fault. I truly thought I had married a really great guy, emotionally stable, full of integrity. Indeed, he was like that for the almost 18 years I knew him before the crisis hit. Unlike an MLCer whose guilt keeps them running, it has caused me to really work on my relationship with my kids, trying to minimize the pain for them as much as I can, etc.
I started reading this and thought I had wrote it!. My feelings exactly. I chose this man to be the father of my children and now look at what they have to put up with.
I think they just run from any responsibility, not just kids. they just want the free and easy teen life. Mine sees the kids regularly but even OW1 pointed out it is more for his ego than for their benefit.
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I think they just run from any responsibility, not just kids. they just want the free and easy teen life. Mine sees the kids regularly but even OW1 pointed out it is more for his ego than for their benefit.
Yes, they definitely seem to run from responsibility. Mine after more than four years now is FINALLY starting to spend time with the kids on a regular basis. He is still Disney dad and it is still very much on his terms and when it suits him, but it is progress. :)
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those abandoned, abandon
and
hurt people hurt people.
So how do we stop this cycle with our children? I can't bear the thought of my children continuing this pattern. My husband always felt emotionally abandoned and now he has taken it a step further.
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Teach them to love themselves? Of course we have to MODEL that & I'm not sure I'm a good model. Altho surviving this mlc is a good example. ???
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This is something I am worried about. That in approx 33 years my son will turn round, dump his family and no one will know where it came from. Except me....what do I do to stop this happening again? H is abandoning emotionally, his father did it to H, and his fathers mother dumped him as a child.....there is a cycle - its scary.
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Panda,
I have this worry too that my two sons will do the same when they're older but I don't think there's anything we can do to stop that happening. I have just tried to be the best parent I can be on my own and be there for them.
Showing compassion, love and forgiveness. What else can we do? Perhaps others my have answers to this?!?
X
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I think we can stop it happening in a variety of ways. Firstly we are the ones to help our Ss and Ds come through this positively and encouraged to talk, share and deal with FOO issues.
Secondly - we need to lobby hard the medical profession and get it to take this condition as seriously as menopause. The knock on effect is probably actually greater.
Thirdly we need to lobby hard the counselling/psychiatric/ psychological professions to take this seriously so that they can provide proper support for LBSs and LBKs.
Sometimes action from those that are involved will create results. I have a friend who fed up of a particular event happening to her (nothing personal) started a lobby group, set up a forum and recently was in Houses of Parliament advising the govt dept responsible for this. They take her seriously and insurance companies are now acting upon her advice.
It is possible, but to do that we need to become public and unfortunately none of us want to do that really. But perhaps we can do the first one.
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You have a point Songanddance. We are certainly gaining in numbers here on this forum as more and more find us when searching the web for answers.
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**New Question**
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get H to leave? Or possible signs that he is ready to leave/run?
He doesn't talk about leaving at all :o I mentioned that maybe I should leave; definitely doesn't want that either. I feel stuck in limbo here. I did set some boundaries regarding OW; it is now going to be more difficult for him but he insists on the relationship.
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Me too - this is also my problem...
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Me too - this is also my problem...
Hang in there Songanddance ;D Someone will be able to guide us.
I just don't get the whole "i love you and won't leave you, etc" when they have already left, at least emotionally. Is that they don't be the bad guy? S onganddance, do you get this from H too? Our situations seem so much alike it is spooky.
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War of the Roses comes to mind :-\
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War of the Roses comes to mind :-\
OMG, I hope it doesn't come to that :-\
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I hope not, but it does sound like a nightmare for you ladies.
I hope someone will come along with a solution for you.
I'll have a look through the articles available, see what I can dig out.
Back in a tic xx
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Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get H to leave? Or possible signs that he is ready to leave/run?
He doesn't talk about leaving at all :o I mentioned that maybe I should leave; definitely doesn't want that either. I feel stuck in limbo here. I did set some boundaries regarding OW; it is now going to be more difficult for him but he insists on the relationship.
He has also started complaining more about work lately too. I think that he doesn't think about leaving because OW lives too far away for him to go to work everyday.
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Found this:
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/communication/should-my-mlcer-stay-or-go/
I hope it helps :-\
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BB64 - thanks. Read that article some time ago and earlier on mentor 4 thread I did raise this issue and RCR was really good to respond to it.
It's a question of who has the power and commanding respect for the need to leave.
My H says he will leave when he can afford it...he has more money in his account than he had for years so that's BS...
My H convinced that I agreed at BD that we would live 2 separate lives as 2 individuals and that meant in his world he could have an affair. (if you read my second thread - you will find all the gory details of that conversation)
My H definitely cake eating but I am dark so the pursuit/distance dance is in full sway but I am not pursuing at all.
He knows he is wrong not to leave but won't....
He knows he needs to leave but is probably afraid to be on his own as I don't think OW has her own place yet although there is a new key on H's car key ring.
I'm stuck!!
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Question
Three weeks ago my MLCer was demoted from his Exec. VP position to Supt, now it appears he will lose his job totally. When MLC started he began lying and not showing up to work, spending time with his "I love her more than anyone else ever, we've lived as one for 8 months, soon-to-be wife ". He's been at this company for over 20 years and has lost everything he worked for. My question is, when this type of thing happens, typically (I know, no such thing with MLC) does this work as a wake up call for them - like they might be running down the wrong path or do they perceive it as they were maligned, treated unfairly and feel the world in conspiring against their happiness. Would love some input/thoughts. ;D ;D ;D
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Question
H text Mr this morning n said hr was tempted to sleep with me when he seen me today then texts the fowolling--- take it as a compliment not a downgrade. Wtf does that mean?!?! I'm a lil upset and curious as to what he meant..surly he don't think the OW is better than me or that he is better than me now that they have a new fancy house anf he left mr n S11 in a peice of $h!te house...Idk I was just wondering what he meant by that, its boggled me since I read it..n yes it pisses me off..how dare him!!
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S&D, I completely understand where you are coming from. After first BD, my H wanted us to have a trial separation, living under the same roof (he couldn't afford to live on his own either). I agreed only because I thought that we were going to eventually come back together and work things out. He wanted to see other people and I set a boundary that as long as we lived in the same house, I didn't want to see other people. He agreed. When I found out about OW for the second time (they broke up and secretly got back together), I restated my boundary and asked him to leave. He said he couldn't afford it, I said stay at a friend's house, I didn't care (OW lived 5 hour away). He left and stayed at a friends and hasn't moved back - it's been over 3 years.
Have you served your H with legal separation papers?
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Broken open I'll answer on your thread as there's so many questions here I'm confused.
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songanddance - my H says he will leave when he can afford it - but blames me because I will not re-mortgage, however like your H, I firmly believe this is an excuse. At BD, I also got the '2 separate lives under the same roof' line.
At the moment, I am letting it ride as I know for sure that this OW means nothing. I would continue to do as you are - no contact, no chats. Let your H feel uncomfortable.... Hopefully a mentor can help out with this one for all of us who have live ins.....
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S&D and Panda
As you know, I don't have a live in, but in terms of affording somewhere to live, my H says he is only living with OW because he literally has nowhere else to live and doesn't have the funds to pay for a place of his own. With some compromise of his material things, he could afford somewhere to live; he could live with his parents but refuses to. His sister has had to put up with him for 4.5 months. I think it is whatever suits their reasoning at THAT moment. I think they are afraid to be on their own as it will surely lead to a need to look in their mirror and face some sort of reality.
It must be so tough for your both and I can't imagine the daily torture almost of it all. I guess all you can do is continue with no contact, trying to GAL, etc. I am sure someone will have better insight than me though! x
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To add to Clareb Comment
i dont even know where my H lives or is staying with , he wont even tell me that (im so controlling you see) i do know he lies about where he is (He is a crap liar)
however h has a perfectly good home at his dads - his reason for not staying there "H does not want a lecture" that says it all
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New question
I wonder if and when someone in MLC starts to take a look at himself. As far as I can see my H (BD Dec. 2010) is waking up. He is much nicer, making me compliments again etc. Guess OW is gone. But H still tells me that I cannot take a look at myself and accuses me of wanting to blame him for this whole mess. It almost looks like he wants me to make excuses so he can convince himself there is nothing wrong with him. And all the things he accused me of during his crisis were absolutely his FOO issues, mostly things he never told his mother I guess.
On the other hand he verbalizes things like he felt too responsible and therefor he wanted to walk his own path. I guess that these feelings weren't triggered by me, but he cannot answer that question.
My situation is that I live in our house together with our D20, H pays everything (talking about responsibilities) and he wants to continue this situation. He refuses to discuss any other alternative. So I really feel that everything is on hold and I am afraid that this situation will last for years as long as my H doesn't understand were this all comes from. Even our therapist said that with his personality structure it will be very difficult to give him some insight in his problems.
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Hi Neik
My H is the same , i live in our House all his mail comes here , he gives me nearly all his wage , yet wont talk to me or D?
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Echarle1
Mine did that too. Just left with one credit card in his wallet. I kept paying the bills with his direct deposit into our bank. . Then one day no direct deposit. He just decided it was his money. I then reamed him out and he would give me about half even though I paid his phone, car insurance, and credit cards, plus our joint bills. Then when I filed divorce since I could no longer control him giving me money to pay his bills, he got a place, credit cards and bought new furniture, clothes, whatever. Eventually had to get it court ordered to give me child support. The MLCer at first want out. Not worrying about money. Then they get entitled and feel you stole it all and they should have more. I can't stand how he says he is "fighting for his kids" yet didn't care if they were put out on the street when he left. I was supposed to just get a better job and figure it out on my own. ( since I always did for 21 years).
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Hi Disneyme
I think a lot of the reason my H gives me all money is because i have always dealt with bills , on his 2nd move out , he opened a new bank acc and got a credit card using his dads address, in 6 months he has racked up £6000 on a credit card and £1050 overdrawn with his bank , not including what he ran up before!!!
So i think he is in too much debt to sort it out and his mind cannot cope sorting it out , much easier to leave it to me
I got smart when this started and made sure nothing is in my name , the moment he stops depositing is the moment nothing of his gets paid!!!
He has paid less this month but text to say he will pay the rest next week , which is fine as long as he communicates this , he says he's been sick but i reckon he was needing it for somthing !
How long into this did your H stop paying? :D
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Echarle1
Sounds like mine. He is $50,000 in debt. Plus he hasn't done his taxes and owes. And he owes me $500 right now and growing. He left Apr 2011. Got deposit about 1 month. Then he went to giving me about 2/3 of pay, but he was living for free, and his mom was rewarding him for leaving me by buying him new clothes. Then in Dec 2011 he wanted to get a place and that made me mad so I cut him off the car insurance and cancelled his phone. So he started only giving me half his pay. Said he had bills. As if his house, 3 kids, the van I drove them in, their food and clothes was not important. His new place and new furniture was. Six months down he starts saying he couldn't give me anything this week, or only half. That's when I took him to court. Now he is ordered to give it to me. I just always fear it will bounce because he doesn't get finances. I am hoping he goes broke now with no more credit. Then we will see how "happy" he is. He likes to spend money. Gets this from his mom. And if they are cut off, they turn monster. Can't wait to see if OW is willing to support him and buy him what he wants.
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Ok, thank you very much.
Ohhh I think my thread is closed I think
So where did I post my reply? I'll get back to you. :-[
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I don't know. This is my thread, but I think it is closed. Maybe you can reply in the Mentor thread?
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2435.msg156864#msg156864
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Niek,
Even our therapist said that with his personality structure it will be very difficult to give him some insight in his problems.
Would you be able to give more information on this?
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Niek we have re-awakened your thread so I sent your posts from Ask the mentor to yours.
Panda can you send your question to Niek's thread please [I don't dare try this splitting topics again ;) ]:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2435.0;all
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Oh ok, thnx very much.
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i have a question
why do they give mixed messages all the time he says to me yesterday dont expect him to come back because he cant he hasnt damaged us too much he cant understand why 18n months ago he did whart he did, he then said he misses us from time to time but doesnt want to come home (he still lives here part with ow and here for nwork) wont leave says he cant afford too i dont believe this then he says other things like he loved me with everything he had and me him but that obviously not enough i have heard these things tooing and froing i think ow is convincing him to stay and not come back he has tokd me at least 3 times he wanted to come back but cant over last year, how do i cope with these up nand down feelings i see my hubby simetimes then yesterdya he hasd none of his temper tantrums throwing pots in sink because i wouldnt agree with him then it was "there you did it again proving to me we could never go back and you will always do this and beriing things up
oh i dont know have solkicitors appointment in an hour i hate mlc why does this happen i sometimes wish i wasnt here anymore :-(
answered on your thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3714.0;all
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Hi HDIC
Think we have all felt like you at somepoint, just wishing the pain and hurt goes away.
From what i have been told - as my H has done the same, cant cope with what he has done bla bla bla - Ok so why atill do it? i love you wish we could have it back , right back to its all your fault
i dont think they know what they want - temptation and feel good factor from OW , you really do need to focus on you and take your self out of this situation "detatch" it really does help , you then done seem to get effected by their cycling.
try keep your chin up and stay positive we are all here for you ;)
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NEW QUESTION:
Will my H continue to view me as 'the problem' as long as he remains living here? Will this halt his progress through the tunnel?
I am concerned that my refusal to let him extend the mortgage to give him his 'freedom' money will be seen by him as a way of me 'clinging' to him. Whereas in fact I am trying to protect us all
Any advice/thoughts would be appreciated. I only know of one story of re-connection with a live in/never left.
Answered on your thread. http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3762.0;all
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PROTECT YOURSELF and YOUR FAMILY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't worry at all about what he thinks. Make sure you are protected financially. That's the first advice I had off the forum (by my BIL whose dad left) and on the forum. (Check out my first thread).
If they leave you need to protect yourself and if they come back that's best for you all also.
Hugs,
SP
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Panda - agree with Still Praying.
Protect yourself and children too. What he is doing is co-ercing you with emotional blackmail. If you give in where will it end?
Perhaps you need to develop a phrase that you keep repeating to him something like " If you wish to leave then do so but I will not jeopardise the house or the children's future by paying for you to go."
Or " the mortgage and our children's future is not up for negotiation. If you don't like it here then leave of your own free will. But I will not financially enable you to go"
Then repeat it ad nauseum every time he monsters or brings up the subject until he knows you cannot be moved on this. It means not responding in other ways if he tries to twist it. Stick with the phrase that you are comfortable with.
How many times have you said the same phrase over and over to your children when they want something and they can't have it? Similar principle
Just a thought and supporting you in this horrid time.
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Stillpraying, SD,
Thankyou - believe me I have no intention of giving H any money out of the house....I am relieved it requires both signatures/agreement to do this.
I've told him on at least 3 occasions, if he wants to leave, then go. I am not getting myself into debt for his adultery.
He says he will be here, and I quote 'for years'.......... don't believe it at all.
However, I was more concerned whether he would be feeling like I am trapping him thereby keeping his hatred of me going for longer and halting his progress to self reflection. Calamity answered on my thread that whatever I do does not really make a difference - I guess they are so far gone in la la land that they haven't a clue whats going on anyway!!!
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Panda, you will be blamed whatever you do while they are on the crazy train.... Do whatever YOU want to do x :)
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Have a question please. Without sounding like a needy MLC wife, oh well, why not eh?
Posted this last week on the thread I started, but as I don't often get feedback (not that I expect it and that is more than okay), which is fine, as I find this so therapeutic whether anyone "talks" to me or not :) , thought I would ask it over here on Ask a Mentor. Thank you in advance.
I read a lot about the MCLer "running" on here, so I get that they are running away from responsibilities and themselves, but anyone know how they physically feel? Is it a sense of something like claustrophobia or not feeling okay in one's skin, and the physical sense to "run"? My lovely H is like Forrest Gump when it comes to running, just keeps on going.
I am so curious, like we all are, to just try and think about how it feels inside their heads. I understand confusion and need to run, and acting young, and no empathy or sympathy for anything or anyone outside of themselves, except for OW/OM, which is so odd that they CAN feel something, and wonder if it is a sense of impending doom or voices or just not well.
My H has left on more than one occasion, and the one last time was for a week or so, and he came back with promises never to do it again.....until again last year. On the morning of the day he left last time, and the night before he left this time, he actually physically looked like his face was from a horror movie, he looked possessed. I know many of us have seen that look, but it is very creepy isn't it. If I had a picture of it now, I think many would not recognize that as H. It really was like something took over his body and mind.
Well, thats enough about him for the day, that's my quota, time to move onto kinder things, and things which make more sense!!
Answered on your thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3697.0;all#lastPost
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I don't know how they physically feel, but my H has at times shared enough for me to know a bit about what was going on in his head. About four months pre-BD, when I first started noticing the absolutely huge change in him, one night he just broke and told me there was something terrible happening in his head and he didn't know what and he didn't know what to do about it. I think he meant that the confusion was very intense. He really didn't get too specific. I do know also that it is a very dark place in their minds. The only thing they can figure out to do to try to stop the pain is to run and try everything they can to stop it. I don't know if that helps or not. He has told me enough hear and there to know that I am GLAD that I am not the one in MLC.
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My H has said that he feels broken. He is convinced he has early stage alzheimers and cannot remember things, focus, wants to feel happy but doesn't know how except for OW, feels compelled to do things, only has negative thoughts about me and our marriage and he feels so much pressure inside his head he thinks he is going to implode.
That did not all come out at one time - I've just put pieces together. But what I do know is that he is frightened of not being in control and he is aware of hurting me and he has told other people that he knows what he is doing is wrong but he cannot help it. It's an urge...
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My h started being anxious and had to get out of the house . He then once came in from drives and cried and said "i think im having a breakdown" he soon forgot about that....
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Thank you all. Very interesting.
Again, wow, these poor, poor people. How very sad.
It makes sense what you say. I received an email from H once, in which he referred to our home address as a different number, only one digit out, but he lived here for almost 12 years before he left, and a few months later, didn't remember the house number? He also wrote in a way that I thought someone else had written it for him. He announced when he was here on a visit that in fact he had been away working, and had that draft for close to a month, adding to it. It was a paragraph in total which made next to no sense, and it took him a month. At first I thought it was written by OW or when he was drunk, but it was sent around 9am. All so odd.
There definitely is something extremely wrong in their way of thinking. It is as if their brain has lost the capacity to even acknowledge un acceptable behaviour, consequences, or cause and effect. To hear my H say the things he does, and with no filter whatsoever, and for him to think there is NOTHING wrong with any of it, just blows my mind. It is so unreal, I think I stay stunned for a day or so afterwards.
I truly feel that the worse my H is, and has become, the easier it makes it to deal with as it is so ugly. I was told before that he seems to be ruining his life and on a downward spiral, so I need to make sure my children and I don't go with him. Great words of advice, and which I think of from time to time.
Thank you all so much for answering my question. I find this board to be a great place, full of good, kind people, and fantastic information. As I'm new, I sit and read an read the posts, and then some. I didn't even know this existed and only had vague recollections of comics saying about MLC in their comedy routines, and not once ever did I know this was for real. What a wake up call that was.
Thanks again. Happy weekend.
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CB
I to like to see him acting like MLC. I feel bad that I actually feel better knowing he is unhappy. When he turns monster then I know it's the MLC. When he is calm and happy, laughing with friends, all clean cut shaved, in new pressed clothes my anger just fumes. If he's happy I think he is right. I don't want to see him rewarded or see God's favor or I think maybe I'm the evil one, he was right to get the hell out of here. Look how happy he is.
When I see him fat and hasn't shaved or gotten a hair cut I think wow that's the depressed H I know. Then I wonder is OW so deprarate or is it true love that it doesn't bother her. It bothered me. I would yell at him for wearing a shirt with holes or stupid writing on it to church, or tell him he needs to shave every day. Guess he is still lazy. Does she not see that? I did but was 19 and thought he just needed to grow up. At 41 he's set in his ways.
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New question:
If they left us because of lack of attention that they find somewhere else, why do we detach instead of being the loving flirting wife?
Answered on your thread. http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3753.25#lastPost
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If they left us because of lack of attention that they find somewhere else, why do we detach instead of being the loving flirting wife?
Because while they are in crisis they don't want the attention of their spouses (exception may be clinging boomerangs). Flirting and acting like a wife is pressure on them for a relationship they do not think they want and it will only push them further away.
In my situation, and I know in many others I am familiar with as well, my husband did NOT lack attention from me. I really think I was a good, though of course not perfect, wife and our marriage wasn't lacking. MLC is not a marriage problem, it is a problem deep within them. They are trying to fill a void and part of that is seeking another relationship as they believe that is what will help.
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New Question
Unfortunately I work with my MLCer. We are in construction and I sit on a very large project. We have no contact at all personally. BD was 4/12 and in the beginning he wanted to be friends.....he just didn't love me anymore. I know OW was i the picture prior to this as I saw her on his FB friends. However he did not announce he had a GF until 8/12.
My question is this. When I have sent him emails in he past trying to be supportive of his "journey" or supporting him at work he never responds. I know he reads them because he would implement them the next day at work. BTW, I don't do this at all anymore. Also, he would do everything in his power to avoid coming to my job. The few times he has come out he has gone out of his way to say hi and be friendly.
Can someone help me understand this? Is he doing this because he hates me? Does he feel if he does he is betraying OW?
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Does he feel if he does he is betraying OW?
That could be part of it, twisted as it is. Guilt also probably plays a large role.
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As far as not responding or avoiding contact, he probably felt pressure. It's a form of pursuit (even when we are saying we understand or confirming that we'll let them be), so they distance. We make them uncomfortable, and they don't want to discuss their crisis with us, especially in the early stages.
Being friendly at work - you're in public, he is probably more comfortable, no pressure, so no monster. That's my take.
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My question is this. When I have sent him emails in he past trying to be supportive of his "journey" or supporting him at work he never responds. I know he reads them because he would implement them the next day at work. BTW, I don't do this at all anymore. Also, he would do everything in his power to avoid coming to my job. The few times he has come out he has gone out of his way to say hi and be friendly.
Can someone help me understand this? Is he doing this because he hates me? Does he feel if he does he is betraying OW?
He is doing it because MLCers avoid. It is not at all uncommon for MLCers to be unresponsive or show Monster when the LBS pursues in any way.
Here is some insight from one of RCR's blogs. I found this very helpful. In my experience of interacting with other LBS', one of the most common LBS fears is the MLCer will somehow forget about the LBS or not contact them. That could happen with a Vanisher, but a true Vanisher is rare....very rare.
Let your MLCer initiate and control contact. He may want to meet with you weekly at home, his place or somewhere neutral. Some may want more. He may call you daily or request that you call him. He may give you permission to call as you need—don’t do it.
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Thanks R2T. He will be married to her soon. Ugh! I know you have had some personal experience with this. I know you don't know for sure but from your vantage point, did he just cut me out of his life and move on as my therapist says? Is he just done and I'm a nuisance to him? Does he even think of me?
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Thanks R2T. He will be married to her soon. Ugh! I know you have had some personal experience with this. I know you don't know for sure but from your vantage point, did he just cut me out of his life and move on as my therapist says? Is he just done and I'm a nuisance to him? Does he even think of me?
Mine hasn't married the OW (she is still married herself), but he did move away to live with her, and we are "almost divorced" (no settlement) - but mentioned to me within just a few weeks of being there that he may end up coming back to our city, that it "felt weird". My answer to you is yes and no. Physically, yes, he did cut you out and go live a new life - that's what the crisis does. I can see where your therapist would say that, but it's not the whole story, knowing what we know about MLC. He probably feels he is done, and you are a reminder of his guilt, shame, and past life - for now. That's where time is your friend. I believe we are always in their minds (read stayed's husband's letter http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3650.10) - but it may not always be in the way we used to be, at least for now. There is value in accepting this and reacting accordingly, and not having the expectation for them to suddenly be their old selves. Where there is value in standing is in the fact that we know MLCers will go through changes throughout this. But until they are to a certain place toward the end, we really don't know the ultimate outcome - though some of their actions in between will be somewhat predictable.
DGU has experience with his spouse marrying the alienator, and I'm sure more awesome references. :) You're at the hardest place for an LBS right now, within that first year and a half or so it is so hard not to be more concerned with what's going on in their heads than in our own. As you get the power under your wings more will become obvious to you about how his behavior is very crisis-confirming, and you'll start to trust that process more. And as that happens, you tend to become more self-focused, and it helps move you to a point of healthy detachment.
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Thanks R2T. He will be married to her soon. Ugh! I know you have had some personal experience with this. I know you don't know for sure but from your vantage point, did he just cut me out of his life and move on as my therapist says? Is he just done and I'm a nuisance to him? Does he even think of me?
So here's a couple of things about MLC from my perspective. Others may have differing views.
Yes, your MLCer is "trying" to cut you out of his life. The key word is "trying". MLC is a regression. He wants a "do over"....we hear many MLCers say they want a "new life". My MLCer said exactly that, as did my friend's MLCer. Basically the MLCer will regress to the developmental wounding and attempt a "do over'.
RCR has an excellent explanation of this in the article Initiatory Experience.
MLC is the result of significant wounding in childhood and at a person's initiatory experience and thus their return to the wounding is a regression wherein they choose to repeat their earlier mistakes in hopes of correcting them rather than applying their experience to make different choices.
Regarding what your therapist has said, I would hope your therapist would be focusing on you, your coping and your growth. My thought would be to leave learning about MLC behavior to resources that understand it.
Keep in mind MLC is a process and he will cycle somewhere between one and a zillion times between now and the completion of the crisis down the road. I think an understanding of this can help the LBS detach and not get caught up in wondering what their MLCer is thinking or doing today.....or tomorrow.....or the next day.
And yes, I understand very well about the MLCer marrying the alienator, both personally and with a very close friend. My belief is as simple as this.....if the MLCer were capable of truly being in a relationship, it would be with the LBS.
Let them have their crisis.
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Trusting, R2T, DGU
Thank you very much for the responses and perspective. It was very helpful and provided some much needed insight into the MLC process. I am really working hard on myself, however, it's hard to focus on me when I'm watching a car wreck occur in front of my eyes. It seems like understanding what he is going through is intertwined with my healing process. I don't know if I can successfully navigate the second without understanding the first. This forum has helped me tremendously and continues to do so. Thank you for helping me.
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It seems like understanding what he is going through is intertwined with my healing process. I don't know if I can successfully navigate the second without understanding the first.
I believe this to be correct also. Here's some insight from RCR about that, from the article on Acceptance.
Acceptance in its intellectual form is about recognizing the process. For many this includes self-education about MLC, its root causes and recent triggers and thus recognizing that regardless of your flaws and indiscretions, his MLC is not your fault. If the fault is not yours, neither is the solution.
I also believe it is good to use discernment in the resources from which you get information about MLC. I explored many available resources, then began to narrow down the ones I trusted and seemed most accurate.
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Thank you DGU. Very helpful and comforting.
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3809.0