Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on August 13, 2013, 01:59:10 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyiZfzbgaW4
I watched this movie last night.
Not exactly about MLC, but notice the people in it, some want to confront their disorder and other want to run away from it and deny that it exists.
Some take medication, some do not.
It takes an hour and 23 minutes to watch it all.
But it might help you understand the mind of what you are dealing with.
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Thanks OP. I know the mind of what I'm dealing with but is never too much to know a little more.
One thing I think one should never forget is that bipolar involves depression. Unlike Major Depression (Unipolar disorder), as the name says, Bipolar has two poles: Depressed and Euphoric/manic. Its old name, Manic Depressed, was far more graphic and easy to get what one was dealing with.
Sadly there are no meds or known treatment for MLC. Yes, i still MLC can be, if not treated, mitigated. It deals with hormones and brain chemicals, it has to be possible to mitigate it.
I also think that would not damage emotional and other type of growth.
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Thanks for the link OP. Look forward to watching it.
I came across this link last night for another documentary which has recently been released by the looks of it.
http://www.oftwomindsmovie.com/
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I'm bipolar and yes, that movie is a good depiction of what bipolar typically looks like. I agree that MLC shares aspects with bi-polar, but what I see in my H is the most rapid cycling thing I've ever encountered; it's not just two poles, its multifaceted. Think of the dice they use to play Dungeons and Dragons which have up to 20 sides and you never know which one you're going to see next :o
I'm very open about discussing bipolar from an insiders perspective, in case anyone has questions. I also have experience from an outsiders perspective, as my dad is also bipolar, but he went untreated until after I left the house. Oh what fun that was :-[
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Phoenix67 - thanks for sharing that information.
If you don't mind - there are a few of us on here who are wondering whether our spouses were always mildly on the bipolar spectrum, and this has tipped them into something more full blown, or whether this is it's own thing all together.
We have previously wondered whether the high energy replayers are somewhere on the bipolar spectrum and the low energy wallowers are more on the unipolar depression spectrum.
I know your H hasn't left home - but has he displayed high energy anything? A thousand million ideas for work, spending money, new 'cool' friends, new activities?
If so - just wondering how what he is displaying, differs from a manic bipolar episode (I am assuming the length of time is one thing).
Thanks - looking forward to hearing your thoughts
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Hi Kikki -
Besides Terrible Awful, H's only high energy area is a renewed focus on house repairs. Those he seems to work on around 10:00 pm after he's had a 6 pack :o H's ups and downs are more related to alcoholism. He's definitely not bipolar, and definitely not a high-energy replayer. The drinking seems to be his replay.
My psychologist said an interesting thing the other day. He said that everyone is on the bipolar spectrum as we all have minor ups and downs. It's just that some of us have a disorder regarding how far and how fast the pendulum swings. From that perspective MLC could be seen as the pendulum getting knocked off balance for the duration of their MLC, then returning to their usual range. I don't know, just a guess on my part.
There is an outstanding website on bipolar issues that may help LBSs compare actual bipolar symptoms with what they see in their MLCer www.psycheducation.org (http://www.psycheducation.org)
An example of a manic episode that I witnessed in my dad is that he was trying to make a minor repair to his recliner, got frustrated, and ripped the entire chair to shreds with the screw driver he'd been using. This is typically mixed state episode, where someone is depressed that hurtles up into manic very quickly. Mixed states are also my biggest problem, just not to that degree. Oh, what's really fun is that I was 3 or 4 when the incident with the chair happened; it's my earliest memory of my dad. blech!
Again, I am happy to share info on bipolar. This site is giving me so much, it's nice to be able to share something helpful in return.
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Phoenix67, thank you for sharing with us. The much rapid cycles you are seeing in your husband could be because some MLCers, or MLCers at certain point in their journey, can be more like cyclothymic disorder (one of the 3 components of Bipolar - Bipolar I, Bipolar II, Cyclothymic Disorder) whose cycles are faster but also, normally, milder than Bipolar I and II.
MLC also has traces of other psychiatric disorders, so what we see is never just like a single disorder. Like you said, they are multifaceted.
Not all MLCers are high energy. But your husband's having a 6 pack and high energy on house repairs are MLC behaviour. My cousin who had MLC was never high energy, except for work and home tidy and keep buying new stuff for the home.
Your psychologist is correct, we all have a bipolar spectrum with our minor ups and downs. Also, has you mentioned the difference is that a bipolar person will have those ups and downs further/more to the extremes and faster.
I like your idea of MLC as the pendulum being off balance during MLC, then back to normal. It makes sense and matches a lot of what we have, in the past, discussed here on the board about MLC.
What, so far, none of us was capable of understand is how the MLCer pendulum gets back into normal range. Maybe they really need to go till the end/rock bottom, waste/spend all they have, and only after Liminality can their pendulum start to get balanced again...
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Regarding a pendulum 'reset' does anyone know of an MLCer who voluntarily went into psychotherapy? I don't mean counseling, but actual therapy work. I'm curious to know the results and if they stayed in therapy for long. If unresolved childhood trauma and FOO issues contribute to MLC, I would think therapy would help them get through the tunnel faster. But they would have to be willing to face some really tough issues and feelings. It doesn't sound like MLCers are able to do that.
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That I know of no MLCer deep in Replay has willingly went to psychotherapy (or even therapy). Some MLCers go to therapy early on, then quit. Some go after the tunnel.
I'm part of the team who does not believe MLC is mostly based on FOO or childhood issues. It may be a part but not the bulk. Those alone would not bring on a MLC. I lean more towards stress, other hormonal issues, imbalanced brain chemicals (normally due to stress, over working or other), fear of aging/death.
Was reading WorkingHard thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3877.0
and she writes "This followed many years during which she--and our marriage--was held back by a misdiagnosed mental health disorder known as "mixed states" (deep depressive periods mixed with anxiety and panic). This is often confused with straight-up bipolar disorder. Unfortunately, it does not respond to the drugs used for bipolar, leaving my partner without relief for many years, and some of the drugs created psychotic mania, which led to hospitalization."
Have never heard of "mixed states" before. Somehow it also seems to match part of what we see in MLC.
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My w was diagnosed with DPD(disociative depersonalization disorder) and major depression and anxiety. Problem I had with diagnosis is that depression and anxiety deal with emotions and felt energy. DPD is said to be like feeling unreal. Zero emotions or attachments. That's pretty scary when you think about it, hense walking in on w cutting was an attempt to FEEL domething again. W stated to me that she felt nothing when looking at the kids and I (indescribable).
Like other disorders the patient has to want help before medication, or therapy will have any effect. I searched for anywhere that would help me and my kids survive this, and here we are. The information here I think can help people with a wide range of disorders, as symptoms are usually very similar.
So MLC,BPD,DPD- it's all takes time and awareness to resolve, unfortunately the people usually don't/can't get the help the need before destroying everything.
Great topic - very interesting for a lot of us.
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Mental illness diagnoses can be very difficult to make. Several things are similar in some disorders. Then some diagnosis seem to be contradictory.
I'm sorry about your wives's health issues. Cutting is not a good thing but from what I know of it is really is because the person feels nothing inside and the physical pain will, at least, make them feel something.
It is said that, on average, bipolar takes 10 years to be correctly diagnosed.
My cousin who had MLC was diagnosed disorders that ranged from schizophrenia to psychotic, as well as OCD, borderline, bipolar.
The difference with MLC is that it is, except in very rare cases, temporary.
You're right Superman, usually people don't get the help they need before they destroy everything, themselves included.
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Phoenix67 - thanks so much for your thoughts on this and the link, very helpful.
I like what your psychologist has to say about us all being on the spectrum - would agree with that, and having the pendulum swung wildly with MLC makes sense.
Fingers crossed when the hormones settle down, so does the extreme swing.
I've just responded on your thread to your H's desire to have therapy. Very unusual for a MLCer, which makes me wonder if he is on the edge of transition - and not fully in crisis.
If he can commit to therapy it would be wonderful to see if a crisis can be stopped, or at least mitigated.
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My w was diagnosed with DPD(disociative depersonalization disorder) and major depression and anxiety. Problem I had with diagnosis is that depression and anxiety deal with emotions and felt energy. DPD is said to be like feeling unreal. Zero emotions or attachments. That's pretty scary when you think about it, hense walking in on w cutting was an attempt to FEEL domething again. W stated to me that she felt nothing when looking at the kids and I (indescribable).
Superman, I'm just wondering when your W was diagnosed?
Because this is MLC 'normal' for all of us (the deadness inside and the lack of feeling), and of course MLC is not recognised diagnostically.
Thanks for sharing.
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Kikki
W was diagnosed about month after bd. she only went to therapy as a means to "help me" through this. We only went once together, then we both had about 15 IC sessions. I spent most of the time filling therapist in on w's background and as I would call "cycles of depression" that I had experienced all the time I've known her.
I do believe that stress and coping skills are what can set these illnesses off. I figured out the timeline and series of events in it sitch and therapist agreed with with me. W was only putting on a show for therapist, and he knew it, hence the reason he was asking me the questions abut her history.
When diagnosis came, w quit going. Doesn't want to think that she has the problem.
There is not a lot out there as far as resources for DPD. MLC seems very similar, hence the reason I'm here looking, and learning. It no matter what until she wants the help, there's nothing I can do about it. I really want to make sure my kids understand this with hopes it doesn't effect them later on.
W was given meds for depression and anxiety, but she refused to take them, even though she filled the prescription and pick them up ?huh?
DPD treatment is cognitive and behavioral therapy. Retraining the brains thinking and handling of situations. Talk about a long road. From the looks of how she acts and treats me, it's going to take an act of god to "wake" her up. So I decided the best thing to do was to back out for my sake and let reality and consequences take hold no matter what they were for w.
I do think misdiagnosis is a possibility, but again nothing I can do about it now.
Therapists last advice" go on about life as if nothing ever happened" easier said than done my friend. In the end I guess my life will go on, and maybe this will be just a distant memory...
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Hi Superman
I recognise the 'helping' us through accepting their new decisions - my H agreed to go to therapy too - but only went a couple of times before refusing to go further.
Another therapist that the boys and I went to last year suggested that my H had dissociative disorder, or was bipolar.
To this day - I am not sure if MLC will be a diagnosable disorder of its own one day in the future, or whether the hormonal changes at this time of life kicks them into one of these already known disorders.
I strongly suspect, that as so few people in MLC seek help - most therapists/ medical professionals never see it, unless they experience it first hand themselves.
And - as you experienced - even if they do agree to therapy for a while - they do not share what is really going on.
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My MLCer has consistently seen IC since BD. I went to one joint session where this IC was included. The IC only validates the individualization of the MLCer. In my opinion the IC has become an enabler. "Do what you feel."
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Sleepless, sadly that is exactly what most of us on here have experienced. The MLCer (if they are in therapy) only continues to go if they are feeling validated. Not feeling validated, they stop therapy.
If validated and continuing therapy - they use it to justify their stance towards us and their escape.
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Kikki
I don't think that bipolar is close enough in my sitch. I only see depression emotional detachment. Completely. I mean one day w says to me"do you know what it's like to look at your children and know there is nothing there?" I was horrified. Right the and there realizing how dangerous this was.
After 1 year there is tiny progress in reconnecting with the kids. Still a million miles away from anything recognizable as normal parental behavior.
The few times I've talked with her she has used language that fits DPD and also MLC SCRIPT so I think there might be something close it that. I also can see how bipolar an be related to MLC too.
Therapist I went to was a leader in the area specializing on dissociative disorders, but we only lightly touched on midlife crisis. He felt confident that she would work through it, but maybe that was professional script to keep me in the office paying the bills? I looked around for 2nd and 3rd opinions and everyone kept sending me back to original therapist. So that was comforting.
Hopefully bottom will come and a condition for w will be Counceling for sure.
Great topic though
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one day w says to me"do you know what it's like to look at your children and know there is nothing there?" I was horrified.
I have heard similar things superman, from my H. It is chilling, isn't it.
Hard to imagine how this happens.
Good to hear there are tiny amounts of progress.
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Tiny as in I'm the only one that sees it, even then I question what I'm actually seeing.
Looking back there is some small changes, maybe I just want to see bigger ones to offset Bd and the other bigger changes that occurred.
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That's understandable Superm - we all feel like that.
RCR likens their recovery to being like a spiral. Towards - away - towards - away. Each time making ever so slight improvements. Like watching paint dry unfortunately - best to look away. :)
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Hi. I think I'm about to reply with this same post twice. Sorry! I'm still figuring out how the threads work and where to find things. Here's my response to your query about "mixed states." For my MLCer, the mixed states existed long before the MLC behavior, but it's the recovering from the mixed states that seemed to launch the MLC. How ironic that health should spill into MLC....
My original message to you:
Hi all,
Yes, I don't underestimate the effects of mental health issues, hormonal changes, stress, and other biological/physiological processes in MLC. I feel confident that all these have been at play in my partner for some time, and that they play a role in her current MLC path even though she now feels healthy and good for the first time in years.
"Mixed states" are known by psychiatrists, but not necessarily by the general public. The (U.S.) National Institute for Mental Health (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/bipolar-disorder/index.shtml), which has many resources on BPD, including mixed states, offers this brief description of a mixed state:
“During a mixed state, symptoms often include agitation, trouble sleeping, major changes in appetite, and suicidal thinking. People in a mixed state may feel very sad or hopeless while feeling extremely energized.”
Mixed states are also described in the DSM-5. Having witnessed them in my partner for many years, I can attest to the fact that they are truly horrible, and people experiencing them are truly suffering. It’s also a dangerous mental state because you’re horribly depressed and can become suicidal, but you have the energy to carry out the suicide (unlike some people who are horribly depressed and do not have the energy to plan and execute the act). Mixed state sufferers do not respond to Lithium or Risperdal or the other drugs commonly given to treat BPD. My partner has received amazing relief from an anti-epilepsy medicine that brings the mood back in balance without blunting cognition, clarity, or emotions. Doctors do not know why it works for mixed states, but it does, and it has worked well for her.
Except that she is now awake and energetic and ready to change her whole life without regard to family, work, or anything else!
I’d be interested in hearing from others who have insights into their MLCer’s mental health before, during, after BD and other events.
All the best to each of you out there.
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Hi WorkingHard
Thanks so much for sharing that information and welcome to the forum.
That was posted twice, so I removed the first one.
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Like all psychiatric conditions, mixed states looks different in everyone. For my dad and I we primarily deal with severe depression with low energy, but high anxiety. When something triggers an increase in anxiety it's like a switch gets flipped and we instantly fly into a manic high energy rage. These generally only last a few minutes, but can last an hour. Then the switch flips back down to an even deeper depression because we're horrified at what just happened. As awful as it is to be the target of the rage or a witness thereto, being on the inside is pure hell.
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As awful as it is to be the target of the rage or a witness thereto, being on the inside is pure hell.
Could you please be so kind and elaborate a little about this? We often talk a lot about how horrible it is inside the MLCer mind/self, of how much worse it is for them than to us. And it is pretty horrible for us.
Do you, and your dad, take any meds? Or even with meds those manic picks you mention happen?
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I’d be interested in hearing from others who have insights into their MLCer’s mental health before, during, after BD and other events.
Thanks for this valuable info Working Hard.
I will answer the above question as I have been meaning to comment on this on my own thread anyway.It's something that I have been curious about.I realize some folks here have come to the realization that their spouse had been struggling with mental health issues prior to this thing we call MLC.
I have analyzed as best I can,our relationship over the decades and cannot see any signs of anything prior in our situation.
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I'm not sure what my Dad takes, but know he didn't start on mood stabilizers until he was I'm his mid fifties. I'm sure he was on anti-depressants before that, which are totally wrong for bipolar, as they just throw you into near constant mania :-[
I take Lamictal as a mood stabilizer and a low dose of Celexa for the anxiety. Unfortunately Celexa is an anti-depressant and my Psychiatrist thinks its contributing to the mixed states. He increased the Lamictal a month ago and it's made a HUGE difference. So much more stable but still able to feel emotions. Eventually he wants to get rid of the Celexa, but life is too much of a rollercoaster right now to watch for the subtle changes that happen with med adjustment. Plus he wants to add low dose lithium and I don't want to take it. This is good for now.
Regarding the "hell inside" it's difficult to put into words. For me there's a piece of my brain that is aware of what's happening but is completely unable to stop it. Hmmmm... think of being trapped in a sphere of smokey glass, but floating untethered like a bubble. You're in the bubble because a beast has taken over your brain, body and mouth. You can't control the beast and are horrified that its hurting anyone, particularly the people you love. For me the part of me that isn't inside the bubble feels like finger nails are shredding my skull from the inside trying to get out.
One of the reasons I chose to never be pregnant is fear of passing this on. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I began showing signs during adolescence, but didn't get on meds until my early 30's. fortunately my dad's diagnosis meant I started with mood stabilizers and didn't go through the antidepressant nightmare that so many people with bipolar suffer. NEVER go to a general practitioner for mood meds!!!
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Hi Phoenix and others,
Just wanted to comment on the drugs used for mixed states. I'm not a doctor and don't endorse any one approach over another. I'll just share that my partner suffered greatly on anti-depressants and "traditional" mood stabilizers like lithium. However, Lamictal alone has been extremely helpful to her (she previously took lithium with the Lamictal, but the lithium shredded her thyroid, which in itself can lead to depression and anxiety, so her psychiatrist took her off the lithium and she's done well since then. Thyroid back to normal and no lithium-induced brain fog.
As to whether or how the Lamictal--or her mental health issues--contribute to her MLC behavior is unclear to me. I've been appreciating your insights and sharing on this.
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Thank you Phoenix67 and Working Hard.
Regarding the meds, when my cousin had MLC he spend some 18 months going from psychiatrist to psychiatrist who gave him all sorts of meds. Until he hit rock bottom and I took him to a friend of mine who is a psychiatrists. My friend gave him Lamotrigine (Lactimal) and it worked. My counsin was on anti-depressants so my friend start by removing one and introducing Lamotrigine, leaving the other anti-depressant. My cousin was also given Alprazolam (Xanax) and Lorazepam (Ativan) for emergencies. Slowly the remaining anti-depressant was removed and he stayed with Lamotrigine and the two anti-anxiety, with the first, Alprazolam also being slowly reduced. It worked.
Lamotrigine is a medicine that come from neurology and has started to be more used by psychiatrists. It seems to have better effects than anti-depressants and lithium for mood.
Your image of being inside hell (manic phase) gives us great insight, Phoenix67.
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I was glad to read that SOMEONE realizes we ALL are somewhat "bi-polar" ::)
I really hate the labeling that goes on with the word ONLY because it gets overused and viewed as some kind of sin.
I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and released with NO MEDS after teams and I do mean teams of psychiatrists talked to me on a visit I had to the wellness center.
And I shouldn't be depressed?? After the bomb that got dropped on me twice pretty much. It's a wonder I didn't kill myself. The whole thing is laughable...seriously.
This labeling doesn't make anyone feel any better about themselves.
It's kinds like the time I got pulled over for DWAI.
I'm was at a stop sign and was told I didn't stop long enough but if I'd sat there any longer that would have been to long. Either way I was going to get a ticket based on some one else's judgement.
Now when it comes to these MLCer's the one I'm associated with has diabetes and his father died young from it. He lacked self control. If his father took him out for ice cream he'd encourage him to BE A MAN and eat two.. ::) So he lacks self control at his base and he's also a hedonist. And stress is only going to make his diabetes worse.
ANYTHING to excess and he's ALWAYS been this way. MLC compounded all of this I believe it is in part to FOO and the other things that was said in a previous post. It's nice to see it put into words.
None of his issues are for me to figure out. I tried .....it DID NOT WORK I've finally decided I'm dealing with a narcissistic emotionally abusive person and he always has been. MLC just compounded it and I know he's afraid of his own mortality.
For us to diagnosis H's ...exh's.... ex w ....or w is a waste of valuable time we can use to get a better perspective on OURSELVES. AND HEAL
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Hi,
One of the last times I spoke with my h, he told me that he had gotten some blood work done and the Dr.suggested that he see a psychologist for his mood swings as be might be bi- polar.
After 14 years of being with this man, loving this man, and wondering often if he had a chemical imbalance, he finally admitted that something is wrong with him.
The conversation ended and the subject has not been brought up again. I know that I need to live my life and if he needs to return to this subject with me he will. I just want to be prepared in knowing that it may be MLC, it may be bi-polar,it may be both. Thanks for posting on this subject.
Kee
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Bumping up for Hold
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Really great thread.
My husband is seven months post BD. Lots of signs of mania around bomb drop. Before he was very even keeled in general despite having a high stress job. There have been three other MLCs in his family and tons of depression and other mental illness. Lots of divorces and FOO issues related to that and likely mental illness.
My husband just started therapy after nightmarish attempt at couples therapy post bomb drop. (I will not even go to talk to our son's therapist together anymore as he uses as attempt to blame/gaslight.)
His new IC is in the same office as my IC. My IC knows the whole story and believes in MLC. He said that try goal would be for the IC to encourage psychiatry, but this could take a long time.