Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Albatross on September 02, 2013, 10:49:08 AM
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Escape & Avoid
- Stage which is the longest in the MLC.
- Stage which is most painful for LBS.
- Stage where is MONSTER dominant and powerful.
- Stage where is cycle behavior unbelievable.
- Stage which is mostly very unknown for LBS.
- If You don't know where is Your MLC-er then You will find him in REPLAY.
I have resources from my MLCer, FB and blog. Also my observations because my MLCer living at home. So I will try to drill down this stage REPLAY into fragments at least for my case.
I will like to everyone who is interested in this contribute with own experience.
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Excellent breakdown of what replay is.
In my case Replay has been all of the life I spent with him so that's about 30 years...
So do I have any hope of him coming out of it
Ahh-Naw- I gotta call the po po ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That's the only cure for what ails him!
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My SO enter in replay after her birthday fall of year 2011.
She refuse hugs, touching, holding hands daily.
Start to emotionally detach self from me.
She have sudden statements when we drive in car: "Find Your self another women." Also, enter into house after work and said: "I can't live like this anymore."
Ask her where and with who to celebrate New Year 2012. she said that we will be home alone. In midnight we kiss each other, she start to cry, ask her why she crying she did not answer...
She start to escape from house when ever she can. Avoid home works.
She said that she have perfect week when me and kids are in same shift and she is in opposite.
She said that she should never been married and should live alone.
She stop calling me at work, emailing and so on. She go inward detaching from world where belong - old life and start to build new one - imaginary.
We had sex whole 2012 regularly.
At fall of 2012, after her birthday she start EA over internet.
SHE NEED WHOLE YEAR being in Escape & Avoid to reach EA.
At New Year 2013. we again being alone and she cry again.
In 2013. no sex anymore.
So, in my case bomb drop is at her birthday 2011. That is the point when Escape and avoid start.
EA start at her birthday 2012. Whole year she doing something unknown in replay.
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According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else. Jung writes that if these projections are unrecognized "The projection-making factor (the Shadow archetype) then has a free hand and can realize its object--if it has one--or bring about some other situation characteristic of its power."
These projections insulate and cripple individuals by forming an ever thicker fog of illusion between the ego and the real world.
he shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, and typically 'appears as a person of the same sex as that of the dreamer'. The shadow's appearance and role depend greatly on the living experience of the individual. Interactions with the shadow in dreams may shed light on one's state of mind. A conversation with the shadow may indicate that one is concerned with conflicting desires or intentions.
I notice that my wife cycle depend how she awake. For example she can be bad one in the morning. After nap she can be old self. Shadow influence.
If 'the breakdown of the persona constitutes the typical Jungian moment both in therapy and in development', it is this which opens the road to the shadow within, coming about when 'Beneath the surface a person is
suffering from a deadly boredom that makes everything seem meaningless and empty ... as if the initial encounter with the Self casts a dark shadow ahead of time'.
"The shadow personifies everything that the subject refuses to acknowledge about himself" and represents "a tight passage, a narrow door, whose painful constriction no one is spared who goes down to the deep well". If and when 'an individual makes an attempt to see his shadow, he becomes aware of (and often ashamed of) those qualities and impulses he denies in himself but can plainly see in others — such things as egotism, mental laziness, and sloppiness; unreal fantasies, schemes, and plots; carelessness and cowardice; inordinate love of money and possessions — ... painful and lengthy work of self-education".
The dissolution of the persona and the launch of the individuation process also brings with it 'the danger of falling victim to the shadow ... the black shadow which everybody carries with him, the inferior and therefore hidden aspect of the personality' — of a merger with the shadow.
Individuation inevitably raises that very possibility. As the process continues, and 'the libido leaves the bright upper world ... sinks back into its own depths...below, in the shadows of the unconscious', so too what comes to the forefront is 'what was hidden under the mask of conventional adaptation: the shadow', with the result that 'ego and shadow are no longer divided but are brought together in an — admittedly precarious — unity'.
The impact of such 'confrontation with the shadow produces at first a dead balance, a standstill that hampers moral decisions and makes convictions ineffective... tenebrositas, chaos, melancholia'. Consequently (as Jung knew from personal experience) 'in this time of descent — one, three, seven years, more or less — genuine courage and strength are required'
We begin to travel [up] through the healing spirals...straight up'. Here the struggle is to retain awareness of the shadow, but not identification with it. 'Non-identification demands considerable moral effort...prevents a descent into that darkness'; but though 'the conscious mind is liable to be submerged at any moment in the unconscious... understanding acts like a life-saver. It integrates the unconscious' - reincorporates the shadow into the personality, producing a stronger, wider consciousness than before. 'Assimilation of the shadow gives a man body, so to speak', and provides thereby a launching-pad for further individuation. 'The integration of the shadow, or the realization of the personal unconscious, marks the first stage of the analytic process...without it a recognition of anima and animus is impossible'. Conversely 'to the degree to which the shadow is recognized and integrated, the problem of the anima, i.e., of relationship, is constellated ', and becomes the center of the individuation quest.
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Is it possible to be in replay before BD and what do you think is the shortest time replay can take?
I hate replay >:( Will replay always involve an affair? So many questions. Do I just stop looking for answers?
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Is it possible to be in replay before BD and what do you think is the shortest time replay can take?
I hate replay >:( Will replay always involve an affair? So many questions. Do I just stop looking for answers?
I am 100% positive that replay begins unnoticed by spouse in most cases. In my case my wife obviously very tough woman enter in replay year before EA. Because we was always so close I notice even her beginning of MLC in year 2007. So she was in previous stages 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and finally she start to run from own shadow in 2011. Very tough woman indeed. :D
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As all You can see libido fall in shadow. Shadow blame LBS, and project on LBS. That is obvious why they treat us as raw meat, no any affection at all. So there come "I love You but not in love with You."
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As all You can see libido fall in shadow. Shadow blame LBS, and project on LBS. That is obvious why they treat us as raw meat, no any affection at all. So there come "I love You but not in love with You."
Please elobrate on this. Are you saying that the libido is tied into the 'love' that our spouses have for us? Sex = love sort of thing? So that is why we get treated as sexual objects?
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This has been very helpful. I can read my H's behaviour in this. I would love to show him this information, but I can't because he is meant to find this out himself. I was just told again that he doesn't know if he wants to go home or stay away. he doesn't know what he wants to do but looks miserable being away (8months now). Also said I love you, I'm not in love. Would you recommend saying anything to him about the Shadow's work? PG
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My H was definitely in replay before BD...he admitted EA during one BD.....crisis. had..started years before. Knew something was "off"...crazy stuff!
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This is awesome Albatross! I just read that big post on the Shadow over and over again.
I think I now, more than ever, believe :) I went through my own transition first, unbeknown to both of us. This makes so much sense of a dark place i was in right before HIS BD. I found myself just as he got so lost. I can't even guide him to help him find his way. They really, honestly need to do so themselves.
But I do believe that if the person had selfish/narcissistic qualities in the first place it makes it a crisis, not a transition. Not big noting myself but I've always been a given, wanting nothing in return. He's always been a taker. Always wanting more. This has taught me it has to go both ways.
This really is a spiritual journey. An identifying of self and all we can, no SHOULD be. In my head i'm always saying 'come on! Catch up (to me) baby!!' Hopefully one day, he will.
I'm loving this thread.. It's going places ! :)
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Yes, Replay begins before BD.
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As all You can see libido fall in shadow. Shadow blame LBS, and project on LBS. That is obvious why they treat us as raw meat, no any affection at all. So there come "I love You but not in love with You."
Please elobrate on this. Are you saying that the libido is tied into the 'love' that our spouses have for us? Sex = love sort of thing? So that is why we get treated as sexual objects?
So far I can identify my self in her world = True empathy she does not love her self, so it is impossible to love anyone. They withdraw from real life, go into self and that is natural state for them, solving own problems, depression. IMO they cannot in such state love self, so how can they love anyone else ? When shadow merge with ego, person become balanced. But how I get it, it is like two chemicals which react between meet, and then something which was divided many years now react and produce huge energy, explosion. That is the reason why they start to run from self. They are scared to death, WTF is happening to me ? They have million questions, and no answers. So they start to seek answers.
So, libido now belong to shadow and they can't feel anything on low lever for us. Other thing is that they have our personality in they shadow. We are part of them, so they don't even notice us anymore, because we are part of them. So, they refuse to touch us, see us, and feel nothing to anybody not only us. That is at beginning when shadow and ego become one.
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So you believe that's when they come out of their crisis? And start to see what's is going on?
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This is awesome Albatross! I just read that big post on the Shadow over and over again.
I think I now, more than ever, believe :) I went through my own transition first, unbeknown to both of us. This makes so much sense of a dark place i was in right before HIS BD. I found myself just as he got so lost. I can't even guide him to help him find his way. They really, honestly need to do so themselves.
But I do believe that if the person had selfish/narcissistic qualities in the first place it makes it a crisis, not a transition. Not big noting myself but I've always been a given, wanting nothing in return. He's always been a taker. Always wanting more. This has taught me it has to go both ways.
This really is a spiritual journey. An identifying of self and all we can, no SHOULD be. In my head i'm always saying 'come on! Catch up (to me) baby!!' Hopefully one day, he will.
I'm loving this thread.. It's going places ! :)
I understand You totally. Why ? Because spouses have influence on each other. One start to sink slowly and gradually into depression, means going inward into self, diminish external energy, drawback is that other one intuitive follow. As everything in nature wanna spend minimum energy, both going into depression.
In my case I become almost zombie in year 2011. she was in replay but without EA. I just wait her, and she try as much as possible to be away from home. I wait for her and do parenting job, work into house, at my work and become almost widow. I am whole life was well balanced person, have as individual inner peace and equilibrium. My wife never had identity and never know what she really want, she think that she really want what society and parents smack into her superego and ego. She never was peaceful in self, and she obviously not aware of own shadow.
That is the reason why we are together. I was magnet for her, having something what she don't. She as couple become more balanced then alone. She did not change a bit all this years. And then she must change now, only way is demolish self and start from scratch.
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Is it possible to be in replay before BD and what do you think is the shortest time replay can take?
I hate replay >:( Will replay always involve an affair? So many questions. Do I just stop looking for answers?
No you don't stop looking for answers. You read ;D ;D : http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay.html)
From above:
Most of you will recognize only two of the described stages or characteristics, the first is the characteristic Replay which is the third within Separation, and the next you may recognize is the stage of Liminality. If you only recognize one of these, it will be Replay. If your Bomb Drop was recent, your MLCer is in Replay. If your Bomb Drop was a year ago, your MLCer is in Replay. If your Bomb Drop was 18 months ago, your MLCer is likely still in Replay. If your bomb Drop was 24 months ago, he may still be in Replay,
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So you believe that's when they come out of their crisis? And start to see what's is going on?
I believe that they are aware what they doing all the time. But they have perspective at world as personality disordered people. From their point of view they are totally right and for them all have logic. I study a lot personality disorders and know very well how they function. It is all about them. People in their life are just objects, in severe case of PD. Most appropriate model for majority is borderline PD, for some histrionic PD, for some narcissistic PD.
They are blind for destruction. They can learn only from own mistakes. And majority of them are codependent. More shadow influence, more PD behavior. So that is the reason when we confront them with facts, which are obvious for normal people then they have cognitive resonance and you get in circular conversation. If Your statement is different what they feel, then You can spend whole night arguing. They will respond as broken record, repeating same words over and over and refuse to give any argument defending own stand about issue which is on discussion. My wife repeat same thing: "I feel nothing !" And also: "I don't wanna."
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He says he feels nothing for me. He knows he's hurting everyone but he doesn't do anything to make it better. He looks at me with such unkindness, it's awful.
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Good thing is that MLCers cycle, means shadow influence is persistent and ego is who cycle. So, depend how ego is strong as Jung said. Stronger ego, MLCer is walover, weaker ego, high energy MLCer.
So, after I push my SO about internet affair, her ego diminished and monster arise. We become more distant then before. Before she blame only self - antihero. After I push her about inet affair, then she start to blame me as control freak. And for her is natural that was not infidelity because our marriage was not good. Also in time when we clash, she push in time how long our marriage was bad. At beginning was that all was good until she start to work, then was before second child, then before I start to work and at last never, we had only some at beginning, but never was real passion between us. In her angry letter after she find out that I send to both alienators PM that she have MLC then she wrote to me angry letter. It is like PD person write it. Last sentence is "I can calm my self until retirement ie. (65 years) but wont !" Means she will search for lovers. Any reasonable person never state something like that to spouse.
Anyway PD people have immature defense mechanisms like child 7 years old. So MLCers have.
Point is what will be that I did not challenge her ? She will still accuse only self ? Anyway rule of thumb should be no confrontation with MLCer, no pushing, no talking about relationship, no expectations from them whatsoever. Only making personal boundaries and stick to it. After PD people in several attempts try to break your boundaries and You defend them, no attack PD person they will get it that You wont give up and then they will accept it. Same is with MLCer.
Pushing them they will take defense stand and their ego will become weaker, shadow is persistent and for us means monster will arise.
It took 4 months that she come back on level where she was before our clash. But she take advantage of that clash and now act as she is independent, replay is about freedom. Means we stay distanced as at beginning of clash.
What that means ? If You push them and they are total mess, then they will anticipate You as someone who wanna hurt them and they are very weak, have inner struggles, they will defend self and escape from You, avoid You.
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About middle life transition and middle life crisis. I think that some people never goes from MLT, because they change self dynamically in time, change perspective, goals, expectations or people which reach goals and define new ones, generally people who change self dynamically in time - well balanced people.
People who don't change self dynamically in time or people which does not reach ever expectations, goals, dreams realize that they will never reach them, because they going anyway downhill. They will hit MLT.
And those who collapse are people which never being well balanced, have no identity, codependent people, people who have FFO issues. People who have great gap between persona and ego. Rigid people, who wont change and expect that world accommodate to them - idealists, people which have blown up superego. Conflict avoiders.
My wife does not change self at all since years 16, her words. She is conflict avoider, idealist, codependent and without well defined identity. Generally rigid people. They simply can't keep up like that anymore. They see self as victims. "Nice boys and nice girls". They are control freaks which wanna be world savers. And when they start to lose control over life, people to which they care they become nuts. My SO accuse me that I change since we meet, LOL. I said that I change self for sure but my essence is the same. True is that I sink in depression because she sinks since 2007. Now I wake up and never will be dependent with anyone. In 25 years is normal that both spouses become codependent, but not totally. Will be not normal being in marriage as totally independent.
And finally those people must change, and they still refuse to change and change is imminent.
They don't run from us, they run from self.
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Albatross, I really get a lot out of what you say.
To quote: "She is conflict avoider, idealist, codependent and without well defined identity. Generally rigid people. They simply can't keep up like that anymore. They see self as victims. "Nice boys and nice girls". They are control freaks which wanna be world savers. And when they start to lose control over life, people to which they care they become nuts. My SO accuse me that I change since we meet, LOL. I said that I change self for sure but my essence is the same." My h is a conflict avoider, always has been. he HAYES when I bring up us, but at the same time I feel stuck, because not bringing up this makes any meeting really fake and tense, and that is a cycle, because tension means he runs away, and avoids more problems.
At the moment he is in a very bad state emotionally, and I suspect he blames me for some of that, though he knows he himself is responsible for the mess we are in. I told him today to "leave it alone, not to feel pushed by anyone to make a decision, as he is clearly not ready. I said a decision will naturally come when you are ready". Was I wrong to say that?
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I really don't know, but I don't talk about her with her neither talk about myself with her. I just live life and talk about everything else with her. ON that way things with her become more and more better after we talk about our marriage in February. But as I said we remain distanced as we become in February. Nevertheless, I think that will be on that way in case that I did not talk about it with her.
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Hi Al,
Just wanted to say that I really like your summation of MLCers and what drives them. My XW has never really stood for anything since "Free Tibet" in the 80s until BD when she suddenly took up a number of causes. Latest is animal rights. It wouldn't be bad if she actually did something productive for those causes, but Replay is about destruction and not construction. I also agree with why high-energy Replayers become so, and it fits XW to a T.
Peace to you, brother.
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Hi Al,
Just wanted to say that I really like your summation of MLCers and what drives them. My XW has never really stood for anything since "Free Tibet" in the 80s until BD when she suddenly took up a number of causes. Latest is animal rights. It wouldn't be bad if she actually did something productive for those causes, but Replay is about destruction and not construction. I also agree with why high-energy Replayers become so, and it fits XW to a T.
Peace to you, brother.
You remind me about huge change with my SO last year. She always agree about most things out of our relationship, but in year 2012. she vote NO for entering in EU, that was shock to me. With who I living ? Also she was very argumentative and temperament about gay population, which never before mention. Also she start to comment everything what happening around us and stick with own opinion. Before she agree mostly with mine.
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Maybe that is a sign MLCers want to feel they matter, they have an opinion and they want to distance themselves from the person they accuse them of controlling them? Just a thought.
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PatienceGalore, I agree...My H made such a point about "not being heard..his opinion didn't matter" He did everything he could to show he could do for himself and that no-one would control him. Funny thing is I never wanted to control him...So weird how things play out and if we only knew then what we see now :)
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They simply cannot stand conflict avoidance anymore if You ask me.
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About middle life transition and middle life crisis. I think that some people never goes from MLT, because they change self dynamically in time, change perspective, goals, expectations or people which reach goals and define new ones, generally people who change self dynamically in time - well balanced people.
People who don't change self dynamically in time or people which does not reach ever expectations, goals, dreams realize that they will never reach them, because they going anyway downhill. They will hit MLT.
And those who collapse are people which never being well balanced, have no identity, codependent people, people who have FFO issues. People who have great gap between persona and ego. Rigid people, who wont change and expect that world accommodate to them - idealists, people which have blown up superego. Conflict avoiders.
My wife does not change self at all since years 16, her words. She is conflict avoider, idealist, codependent and without well defined identity. Generally rigid people. They simply can't keep up like that anymore. They see self as victims. "Nice boys and nice girls". They are control freaks which wanna be world savers. And when they start to lose control over life, people to which they care they become nuts. My SO accuse me that I change since we meet, LOL. I said that I change self for sure but my essence is the same. True is that I sink in depression because she sinks since 2007. Now I wake up and never will be dependent with anyone. In 25 years is normal that both spouses become codependent, but not totally. Will be not normal being in marriage as totally independent.
And finally those people must change, and they still refuse to change and change is imminent.
They don't run from us, they run from self.
This post is really intriguing ;D My H has not really changed much in the 16 years we have been together. Seemed happy to just be the same; I guess that is what got us here. Now he can't change fast enough.
So far I can identify my self in her world = True empathy she does not love her self, so it is impossible to love anyone. They withdraw from real life, go into self and that is natural state for them, solving own problems, depression. IMO they cannot in such state love self, so how can they love anyone else ? When shadow merge with ego, person become balanced. But how I get it, it is like two chemicals which react between meet, and then something which was divided many years now react and produce huge energy, explosion. That is the reason why they start to run from self. They are scared to death, WTF is happening to me ? They have million questions, and no answers. So they start to seek answers.
I have been thinking this way for sometime now. How can a person so selfish and self-absorbed have any feelings for anyone. My H tells me all the time that he loves me; is that just projection of him wanting to be loved by me?
Thank you for this post :D I am anxious to see the discussions it brings about.
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Maybe he is scared and codependent and afraid to lose You, so he lie that love You. IMO, MLCers can't love anyone. They equalize love and infatuation. My wife had sex with me whole year 2012. and she was emotionally detached. She obviously clinging to me and was scared to lose me.
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Maybe he is scared and codependent and afraid to lose You, so he lie that love You. IMO, MLCers can't love anyone. They equalize love and infatuation. My wife had sex with me whole year 2012. and she was emotionally detached. She obviously clinging to me and was scared to lose me.
He is definitely afraid of losing me and I agree that they can't love anyone; he is also a clinger ::) ::)
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MLCers can't love anyone.
This is a KEY point I think!
They have no love for themselves so they cant love anyone else or anything else.
And back to the point about REPLAY and bomb drop, there is a post from Heartblessings that I need to find that says, bomb drop occurs around 2/3 of the way through REPLAY.
Of course Replay is so long it still makes it hard to believe.
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I hope you find that post OP :) I would love to read it!
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“The breakdown of the persona constitutes the typically Jungian moment both in therapy and in development” — the “moment” when “that excessive commitment to collective ideals masking deeper individuality—the persona—breaks down... disintegrates.” Given Jung’s view that “the persona is a semblance... the dissolution of the persona is therefore absolutely necessary for individuation.” Nevertheless, its disintegration may well lead initially to a state of chaos in the individual: ’one result of the dissolution of the persona is the release of fantasy... disorientation.’ As the individuation process gets under way, ’the situation has thrown off the conventional husk and developed into a stark encounter with reality, with no false veils or adornments of any kind’.
MLCers without persona become chaotic, living in fantasy world, for them reality does not exists, they runaway from reality, REPLAY.
The alternative is to endure living with the absence of the persona — and for Jung "the man with no persona... is blind to the reality of the world, which for him has merely the value of an amusing or fantastic playground." Inevitably, the result of "the streaming in of the unconscious into the conscious realm, simultaneously with the dissolution of the 'persona' and the reduction of the directive force of consciousness, is a state of disturbed psychic equilibrium." Those trapped at such a stage remain "blind to the world, hopeless dreamers... spectral Cassandras dreaded for their tactlessness, eternally misunderstood."
MLCers in REPLAY without developing new persona can obviously stuck.
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Searching4answers, your quote: (Sorry, still can't manage to do those nice quotes I see on the posts!) "I have been thinking this way for sometime now. How can a person so selfish and self-absorbed have any feelings for anyone. My H tells me all the time that he loves me; is that just projection of him wanting to be loved by me? ", well my H is so intensely selfish he is willing to destroy me, his children and ultimately himself for his own needs. I told him so yesterday, but he did not agree he was selfish!
OP, I do hope too that you can find the post, I now believe he might have been in Replay before BD, but I did not know....does BD then mean that you are near enough to the end? I see my H tumbling and tumbling each time I see him, and it breaks my heart, as I think he is being damaged by this process...in any case, he definitely does not look happy and his decision to leave home has not made him blossom! He does admit to not being happy, but I don't think that he sees the fact that not being with me has changed absolutely nothing! Sometimes I do doubt that it is MLC, as he says he drifted away from me years ago (unfortunately, never said so!). yesterday, he also told me that we had spent a lot of years drifting in and out of each other, during our marriage. I think that that is a normal part of marriage, that people flux, but it does not mean it is a bad thing, just a readjustment of lives...am I wrong, is he right?
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Sometimes I do doubt that it is MLC, as he says he drifted away from me years ago (unfortunately, never said so!). yesterday, he also told me that we had spent a lot of years drifting in and out of each other, during our marriage. I think that that is a normal part of marriage, that people flux, but it does not mean it is a bad thing, just a readjustment of lives...am I wrong, is he right?
MLCers rewrite history ! Also they have memory gaps, memory blur. Obviously they remember bad things buried in shadow and have gaps in memory about good things. So, that we call MLC script. When we fought each time when we was good as couple shrink, check it in this tread. His monster wanna break You ! Don't allow him to do it ! As written on many sites, don't believe as truth 100% what they spoke, and 50% of what they do.
In my case, is it possible that sane person live 26 years in marriage which was terrible ? They blame everything, and spouse is most guilty because spouse was SO in MLCer life.
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That's true, if marriage was that bad, then leave before now! He says that it happened gradually, he thought everything was fine, but that is a contradiction, if everything was fine, then why was he drifting away? Is it a good thing to tell him that, or is it better to say nothing?
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That's true, if marriage was that bad, then leave before now! He says that it happened gradually, he thought everything was fine, but that is a contradiction, if everything was fine, then why was he drifting away? Is it a good thing to tell him that, or is it better to say nothing?
Every normal spouse will talk to other about issues first, then if no any progress will suggest counseling - professional help, do whatever it takes to save marriage, family. And if both after all hard work cannot solve problems and improve marriage then natural outcome will be divorce. But it is very strange that spouse been i n marriage in my case 26 years and become totally different person in very short time, couple of years and suddenly wanna runaway ?!
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I have not been able to find it the way I wrote it and I could be in error in what I said.
However here is a couple of different versions that explain the same general idea.
I.E. that Replay may start prior to bomb drop.
In regards to the bomb drop; sometimes it is the start of Replay; but sometimes it happens during Replay. My BD didn't happen until toward the end of Replay...if I hadn't found out about the porn, I would not have known anything was happening...but I'd seen the symptoms of Replay within my husband long before the BD happened. He was dressing like a kid; changing his appearance, acting like a teen; and bullying me.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=616.msg37565#msg37565
Bomb Drop
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=342.msg20922#msg20922
Feel free to read more of what HB wrote as she was a very knowledgeable poster about MLC and a great writer.
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That's remind me that my SO knows that I love black hair on women and she paint hair long, long time in black and have longer haircut. In Year 2008 she slowly cut down her haircut and in time she have short haircut and some red paint come into. And finally she become red with short haircut. Also, she begin to buy cloth compulsively which is totally different then even before. Style for much younger woman. She before use casual cloth. Also she hate pushup bras. And then start to buy them. All of that before escape & avoid.
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OP posted:
And back to the point about REPLAY and bomb drop, there is a post from Heartblessings that I need to find that says, bomb drop occurs around 2/3 of the way through REPLAY.
Of course Replay is so long it still makes it hard to believe.
I remember reading this information on this site...but cannot find it.
I found it on the Divorce Busting Site:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96192&page=1
The importance of establishing a "Time-Line"
Establishing a "time-line" is more to help you determine a POSSIBLE time-frame-how long you may expect to be in HIS/HER MLC. It is more for something to hold onto and helps you keep your hope and faith--and a possible end in sight-light at the end of the tunnel...etc.
If you will look back in hind-sight the SIGNS were there, not just of affairs and such, and but the definite signs of when he/she entered the tunnel.
That helps you establish the beginning-because the "bomb" dropping WAS NOT the beginning-it began WAY before then.
The onset of the "bomb" or "full-blown" stage of MLC, CAN mark a possible HALF OR THREE-QUARTER-WAY POINT OR SOMEWHERE CLOSE TO THE "AWAKENING" OF THE MLC'ER-AND HOPEFULLY GETTING READY TO COME OUT OF THE TUNNEL INTO ACCEPTANCE.
Depends on them, and how willing they are to face their issues once they "awaken". Every MLC'er that gets ready to come out, experiences this "awakening". And what I have described concerning the journey into Acceptance, comes AFTER this "awakening."
And if you look backwards you WILL see when it started. Now, according to Jim Conway, a MLC takes 3-5 years maybe longer to play out-if you look closely, establishing the beginning of this, and see where you are now-only THEN will you have ANY idea of just how long this may take.
I don't know about the 1/2 to 3/4 timeline. There are many long timers on this site that would not agree with that estimate. (HB did state it as Possible - not definite).
L
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About the Red Book, Jung said:
"The years… when I pursued the inner images, were the most important time of my life. Everything else is to be derived from this. It began at that time, and the later details hardly matter anymore. My entire life consisted in elaborating what had burst forth from the unconscious and flooded me like an enigmatic stream and threatened to break me. That was the stuff and material for more than only one life. Everything later was merely the outer classification, scientific elaboration, and the integration into life. But the numinous beginning, which contained everything, was then."
Red Book is also known as "Liber Novus" (The New Book).
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=400.msg18566#msg18566
Above is the link from our site, I see that I edited this with HB's permission/direction.
Maybe that part was taken out of our version, I now can not remember.
I will go back and re-read some of my PM's and see if I can figure it out.
Thanks for finding that Limitless.
OP posted:
And back to the point about REPLAY and bomb drop, there is a post from Heartblessings that I need to find that says, bomb drop occurs around 2/3 of the way through REPLAY.
Of course Replay is so long it still makes it hard to believe.
I remember reading this information on this site...but cannot find it.
I found it on the Divorce Busting Site:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96192&page=1
The importance of establishing a "Time-Line"
Establishing a "time-line" is more to help you determine a POSSIBLE time-frame-how long you may expect to be in HIS/HER MLC. It is more for something to hold onto and helps you keep your hope and faith--and a possible end in sight-light at the end of the tunnel...etc.
If you will look back in hind-sight the SIGNS were there, not just of affairs and such, and but the definite signs of when he/she entered the tunnel.
That helps you establish the beginning-because the "bomb" dropping WAS NOT the beginning-it began WAY before then.
The onset of the "bomb" or "full-blown" stage of MLC, CAN mark a possible HALF OR THREE-QUARTER-WAY POINT OR SOMEWHERE CLOSE TO THE "AWAKENING" OF THE MLC'ER-AND HOPEFULLY GETTING READY TO COME OUT OF THE TUNNEL INTO ACCEPTANCE.
Depends on them, and how willing they are to face their issues once they "awaken". Every MLC'er that gets ready to come out, experiences this "awakening". And what I have described concerning the journey into Acceptance, comes AFTER this "awakening."
And if you look backwards you WILL see when it started. Now, according to Jim Conway, a MLC takes 3-5 years maybe longer to play out-if you look closely, establishing the beginning of this, and see where you are now-only THEN will you have ANY idea of just how long this may take.
I don't know about the 1/2 to 3/4 timeline. There are many long timers on this site that would not agree with that estimate. (HB did state it as Possible - not definite).
L
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Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.
The unconscious mind (or the unconscious) consists of the processes in the mind that occur automatically and are not available to introspection, and include thought processes, memory, affect, and motivation.
The psyche is the totality of the human mind, conscious, and unconscious. Jung called psyche Self.
The persona, for Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, was the social face the individual presented to the world—"a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to conceal the true nature of the individual".
Contrary to a Freudian conceptualization of shadow, therefore, the Jungian shadow often refers to all that lies outside the light of consciousness, and may be positive or negative.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Structural-Iceberg.svg)
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Cool! Am going to start reading more on this. My question, should we talk to them about this, or would this seem like control and trying to fix? It would be great to be able to have this discussion with them, for ourselves and them?
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Cool! Am going to start reading more on this. My question, should we talk to them about this, or would this seem like control and trying to fix? It would be great to be able to have this discussion with them, for ourselves and them?
It is their journey. They have to go on that long path alone. Nobody can help them beside themselves.
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Cool! Am going to start reading more on this. My question, should we talk to them about this, or would this seem like control and trying to fix? It would be great to be able to have this discussion with them, for ourselves and them?
It is their journey. They have to go on that long path alone. Nobody can help them beside themselves.
EXACTLY - best to keep your mouth closed and eyes and ears open!
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They aren't going to listen anyway. It's hard to believe. But it's true.
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Albatross, OP and IT, thanks...it's just sooooo tempting to do so, but I won't, promise!
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OP posted:
And back to the point about REPLAY and bomb drop, there is a post from Heartblessings that I need to find that says, bomb drop occurs around 2/3 of the way through REPLAY.
Of course Replay is so long it still makes it hard to believe.
I remember reading this information on this site...but cannot find it.
I found it on the Divorce Busting Site:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96192&page=1
The importance of establishing a "Time-Line"
Establishing a "time-line" is more to help you determine a POSSIBLE time-frame-how long you may expect to be in HIS/HER MLC. It is more for something to hold onto and helps you keep your hope and faith--and a possible end in sight-light at the end of the tunnel...etc.
If you will look back in hind-sight the SIGNS were there, not just of affairs and such, and but the definite signs of when he/she entered the tunnel.
That helps you establish the beginning-because the "bomb" dropping WAS NOT the beginning-it began WAY before then.
The onset of the "bomb" or "full-blown" stage of MLC, CAN mark a possible HALF OR THREE-QUARTER-WAY POINT OR SOMEWHERE CLOSE TO THE "AWAKENING" OF THE MLC'ER-AND HOPEFULLY GETTING READY TO COME OUT OF THE TUNNEL INTO ACCEPTANCE.
Depends on them, and how willing they are to face their issues once they "awaken". Every MLC'er that gets ready to come out, experiences this "awakening". And what I have described concerning the journey into Acceptance, comes AFTER this "awakening."
And if you look backwards you WILL see when it started. Now, according to Jim Conway, a MLC takes 3-5 years maybe longer to play out-if you look closely, establishing the beginning of this, and see where you are now-only THEN will you have ANY idea of just how long this may take.
I don't know about the 1/2 to 3/4 timeline. There are many long timers on this site that would not agree with that estimate. (HB did state it as Possible - not definite).
L
Wow - this is really interesting.
And this is a great thread.
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How to cope with MLCer in replay ? Simple answer is like with people who have personality disorder. Before I realize that my SO is MLC I find by my self that she have all symptoms of personality disordered person. And then learning more about PD's find out that people who have PD in middle age PD diminish in intensity. Anyway PD's people develop in early years 0-20 not later. My SO have no any symptoms of PD until year 2007.
In year 2011 I was almost sure that she have Histrionic PD or borderline PD, or both, because exists B cluster of disorders. That leads me to search more, and then I find this site and some others similar.
And then I stress out possible outcomes:
1. My wife going nuts, Alzheimer, Schizophrenia or some similar disses. That was worst case scenario.
2. My wife has always PD but in mild form and in middle age she go into MLC because of that.
3. My wife have FFO issues, codependency but not pathological, conflict avoider - not pathological, idealist and that finally lead her in MLC.
I am optimist by nature and I like to believe in case #3.
Anyway I study a lot PD's. If someone have some Q about them, feel free to ask.
Specially, how to cope with MLCer in REPLAY. They are exact as people with PD.
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OK, I have a question: my H seems to be a completely different person at times, and completely himself at others. Why is that? Sometimes he looks at me with love and compassion in his eyes, and sometimes, like I am a bug. Very weird and upsetting, even if I don't let it bother me too much, at times, it hurts. Why this shift from one personality to the next, is it in response to my actions towards him, or something else.
Also, I found this great site, www.thehouseontherock.net, which explains MLC to MLCers. Would it be recommended to pass that inof to them, so they might recognise some of what they are doing, explains the confusion, male menopause (quite real, to do with changes in levels of testosterone) and help them figure out the confusion in their brain? One entry seems really good at helping them figure out what is important in their lives, what is significant, etc....also shows the difference between reality and fantasy.
What is your opinion on that one?
Note: I just changed the name of the website to THEhouseontherock.net, instead of houseontherock.net This actually takes you to a site that is in Japanese (but can be translated) and informs the reader how to deal with the aftermath of a traffic accident. I actually read a little (thinking it was some type of metaphor) before I realized that it was truly about dealing with traffic accidents! It did make me smile, though. ;) limitless
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OK, I have a question: my H seems to be a completely different person at times, and completely himself at others. Why is that? Sometimes he looks at me with love and compassion in his eyes, and sometimes, like I am a bug. Very weird and upsetting, even if I don't let it bother me too much, at times, it hurts. Why this shift from one personality to the next, is it in response to my actions towards him, or something else.
Also, I found this great site, www.houseontherock.net, which explains MLC to MLCers. Would it be recommended to pass that inof to them, so they might recognise some of what they are doing, explains the confusion, male menopause (quite real, to do with changes in levels of testosterone) and help them figure out the confusion in their brain? One entry seems really good at helping them figure out what is important in their lives, what is significant, etc....also shows the difference between reality and fantasy.
What is your opinion on that one?
Yes that website is excellent and we have discussed it here before.
DO NOT PASS IT ON TO HIM.
Nothing you say or do is going to solve his crisis for him.
It is HIS crisis, let him have it on his own without your help.
Believe me if there was something we thought you should do we would tell you! :) :) :)
But we have been there and done that.
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Why this shift from one personality to the next, is it in response to my actions towards him, or something else.
OP beat me to it! No, nothing you have done is causing that. My H described it in a very brief moment of clarity as feeling like he was "dissociating".
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Hello OP and R2T, thank you for the very fast response! I did not know the houseontherock site had been mentioned on the forum, sorry!
I decided today to go Dark (have been very Dim), probably NC (though that is harder due to finances and children) so I won't pass on, it was just a query regarding the personality change, that maybe a jolt would help...
I appreciate the feedback...it's hard when you know what not to do, but you are itching to do it anyway! This forum is great for stopping or at least reducing the mistakes and the collateral damage!
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Hello OP and R2T, thank you for the very fast response! I did not know the houseontherock site had been mentioned on the forum, sorry!
I decided today to go Dark (have been very Dim), probably NC (though that is harder due to finances and children) so I won't pass on, it was just a query regarding the personality change, that maybe a jolt would help...
I appreciate the feedback...it's hard when you know what not to do, but you are itching to do it anyway! This forum is great for stopping or at least reducing the mistakes and the collateral damage!
1. After bomb drop LBS is in shock, then emotions start to swing, sorrow, pain, fear, anger and marry go round, terrifying experience.
2. Then LBS question million questions to self, that piss LBS even more. Start to dance wild emotional dance with MLCer.
3. LBS start to talk with MLCer rationally, but that make things even worse, it is impossible talking to MLCer in sane rational way, they are broken, they does not work, they are mess, they barely can operate daily tasks and they blame LBS in most cases for their current state. MLCer is broken, he is like wounded animal which any external interaction feel like threat. In good faith LBS actually bite the byte and actually start to feed monster, monster tell to LBS some unbelievable irrational things which actually push LBS on edge, LBS start to feed monster even more with emotional energy and wild dance escalate in sky high.
4. MLCer and LBS now become even more divided in all meanings.
5. LBS become even more confused, and 1. build up even more.
6. Finally LBS sink into depression, become miserable as MLCer. But LBS is not broken as MLCer, after LBS hit the dust, he stand up and take dust from self and start to put self together.
7. LBS then seek for similar experiences, and then start to learn, DETACH, LET GO, SURRENDER, ACCEPT.
8. Rebuild self, solve own issues, become better person.
9. Patience, unconditional love....
10.Stand, wait, wait....
And so on, and on...
You can talk to MLcer about everything else except him, self and You two as couple.
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Thank you Albatross. I put on my thread just now that I was going Dark, to preserve myself. When I see my lovely husband, we shall talk about the weather... Believe me, where I live, that can take up a good part of a conversation!!! I read your posts with great interest!
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Hi Patience - does your H show any interest in figuring out what is going on with him? My experience, and those of most everyone on here, will tell you NOT to point these things out.
I do also believe, however, that you need to walk your journey, and if you are led to share with him, then by all means, do so. Expect nothing.
Unfortunately, when we read about this, things make perfect sense to us, and we think 'aha! if I just can share this with him/her, they will see and understand as well, and so this must be the answer.'. I don't know of one case where it was the answer, nor any help whatsoever.
I read a list of 'symptoms of mlc' to my H one evening, and it made absolute, perfect sense. It was so obvious. To me. I don't even know if he heard me. He looked like a deer in headlights that night. My argument was so convincing, my calm, rational pleadings had me convinced he would say that he would come home. All he could do is say 'I'm never coming back.'.
I saw him vacillate between sure of divorce one day, to flower and chocolate the next. Crying one evening, calling himself a d!ck, and then two days later being so evil, and wanting to make me cry.
I think it is best for you to learn everything you can, to help you learn how to be still, and watch out for you. I think you have to be very cautious with him.
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Thank you Albatross. I put on my thread just now that I was going Dark, to preserve myself. When I see my lovely husband, we shall talk about the weather... Believe me, where I live, that can take up a good part of a conversation!!! I read your posts with great interest!
I am glad to be helpful, if I am. And BTW, remember self from Your youth, age 25 will be good, regress in that time, think about what she was. Copy that energy, enthusiasm, joy + add on her Your life experience = NEW YOU.
I did that. That help me.
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Excellent, going back to pre kids!!! Should be fun! Will do
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Hi there alwayshope, thanks for that. Yes I totally agree regarding the cautious. Like that, I have thought, well if he reads this, he'll just get it. It has failed so far, and believe it or not, today, just start of month 9, I got it. Even if i knew, today it feels different. I am stepping away totally, in as much as children and finance permit. He is at very low ebb, so one wrong word could seriously damage him and things. So I'm reading and posting on this fabulous site, filled with some incredible resources and people! Thank you for the support. PG
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Specially, how to cope with MLCer in REPLAY. They are exact as people with PD.
With a big difference, people with PD's are medicated and can be perfectly normal if they follow medication and other treatment as well as change their lives to a way of living more suitable to their condition. No way one is going to have such thing with an MLCer.
Not all people with PD do it, of course, but those who do it can lead normal lives. Also, many people with PDs know that they suffer from one. An MLCer in Replay may, at least until a certain point in their journey, sense something is wrong with them, but don't know what they have.
And no point in telling them.
Since your wife did not suffer from a PD before she does not have one. Like you said PDs develop until late teens/early adulthood. Unlike mood disorders, who can turn up at any age. And by the way Bipolar is a mood disorder, not a personality one, so, technically, our MLCers could had start suffering from Bipolar at an adult age.
Still, I doubt that is the case. They are just showing signs of several personality and mood disorders.
Found this, it may help to understand a bit of our MLcers cycles:
"BPD and bipolar are often misdiagnosed as each other. Some people diagnosed with BPD actually have bipolar; the reverse is also true.
While only a qualified clinician can make a diagnosis of one or the other (or if both are present) there are three simple ways to distinguish bipolar disorder from borderline personality disorder.
Bipolar disorder causes dramatic mood swings, from overly "high" and/or irritable to sad and hopeless, and then back again, often with periods of normal mood in between. Severe changes in energy and behavior go along with these changes in mood. The periods of highs and lows are called episodes of mania and depression.
A cycle is the period of time it takes for a person to go through one episode of mania and one of depression. The frequency and duration of these cycles vary from person to person, from once every five years to once every three months. People with a subtype of bipolar (rapid--cycling bipolar) may cycle more quickly, but much less quickly than people with BPD (shifts can even last minutes/seconds).
According to Dr. Friedel, director of the BPD program at Virginia Commonwealth University, there are two main differences between BPD and bipolar disorder:
1. People with BPD cycle much more quickly, often several times a day.
2. The moods in people with BPD are more dependent, either positively or negatively, on what's going on in their life at the moment. Anything that might smack of abandonment (however far fetched) is a major trigger.
3. In people with BPD, the mood swings are more distinct. Marsha M. Linehan, professor of psychology at the University of Washington, says that while people with bipolar disorder swing between all-¬encompassing periods of mania and major depression, the mood swings typical in BPD are more specific. She says, "You have fear going up and down, sadness going up and down, anger up and down, disgust up and down, and love up and down."
from http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201003/three-easy-ways-differentiate-bipolar-and-borderline-disorders
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My w was diagnosed for dissociative depersonalization disorder. The traits are "feeling unreal" like watching their lives in a movie instead if living it. And zero emotional connection. It also entailed her severing all emotional connections that she had.
Some if the things she said were like"do you know what is like to look at your kids and know there is nothing there?" Very scary coming from someone that loved her kids more than anything.
Not alot of help out there for DPD...and it's traits are similar to MLC...hence how I found this place. Either way is miserable all the same.
Replay has been like her being 14-15 yrs all over again. Except she wants to remove me from the equation as I am the thing she thinks she made a mistake on. She even told the kids if she could go back she would??huh?? Telling the kids that?
Good topic
Nice post anjae
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My w was diagnosed for dissociative depersonalization disorder. The traits are "feeling unreal" like watching their lives in a movie instead if living it. And zero emotional connection. It also entailed her severing all emotional connections that she had.
Some if the things she said were like"do you know what is like to look at your kids and know there is nothing there?" Very scary coming from someone that loved her kids more than anything.
Since your wife had not show such signs before and that nearly no health professional is capable of recognise MLC, even because its symptoms are many times similar to several disorders (my cousin was diagnose range went from schizophrenic to psychotic passing through borderline, bipolar, and things I no longer remember. He was none of those things. The only diagnosed that was correct was that he was depressed.
Yet, somehow, meds for bipolar worked. Antidepressants did not, they only left him more aggressive.
Of course telling the kids that, you know how MLCers are... ::) ::) ::) Some MLCers like Mr J and Trusandlove's husband take ages to reach stages/actions many get to early on. The first time I heard "Marry you was the bigest mistake of my life" was early 2011. Mr J had left middle October 2006, OW1 made public a few days after he left.
By early 2011 he was living with OW2 and one would have to say that, since he was so happy in his new life, he should not be upset or spewing monster at me, right? Wrong. How come someone who has choose to leave, lead a new life, decides to spit vitriolic venom to the spouse over 4 years after they left?...
MLC, I think... If only MLCers would calm down, look for help, put a stop in their manic lives. And for wallowers if only they would look for help for their depression.
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This is awesome Albatross! I just read that big post on the Shadow over and over again.
I think I now, more than ever, believe :) I went through my own transition first, unbeknown to both of us. This makes so much sense of a dark place i was in right before HIS BD. I found myself just as he got so lost. I can't even guide him to help him find his way. They really, honestly need to do so themselves.
But I do believe that if the person had selfish/narcissistic qualities in the first place it makes it a crisis, not a transition. Not big noting myself but I've always been a given, wanting nothing in return. He's always been a taker. Always wanting more. This has taught me it has to go both ways.
This really is a spiritual journey. An identifying of self and all we can, no SHOULD be. In my head i'm always saying 'come on! Catch up (to me) baby!!' Hopefully one day, he will.
I'm loving this thread.. It's going places ! :)
JB this is my sitch entirely. H was very much a taker especially 2010 onwards. I remember saying, you're a taker, you take other people's money and you take their time (meaning mine!!!!)
If it was a normal break up we just wouldn't get this monster would we! When our exes saw our distress they would be sympathetic not dig the knife in further and twist it around???
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My w was diagnosed for dissociative depersonalization disorder. The traits are "feeling unreal" like watching their lives in a movie instead if living it. And zero emotional connection. It also entailed her severing all emotional connections that she had.
Some if the things she said were like"do you know what is like to look at your kids and know there is nothing there?" Very scary coming from someone that loved her kids more than anything.
Not alot of help out there for DPD...and it's traits are similar to MLC...hence how I found this place. Either way is miserable all the same.
Replay has been like her being 14-15 yrs all over again. Except she wants to remove me from the equation as I am the thing she thinks she made a mistake on. She even told the kids if she could go back she would??huh?? Telling the kids that?
Good topic
Nice post anjae
I don't believe that Your wife have dissociative depersonalization disorder, it is so VERY, VERY rare by all statistics. I am almost 100 % sure that she is in MLC. My wife had several dissociative episodes in February this year when we have some clashes. MLCers are in the fog and severe depressions in long therm can bring them to dissociate.
Take look at THIS, read whole page and at bottom You will find very interesting stuff. (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_depression.html)
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JB this is my sitch entirely. H was very much a taker especially 2010 onwards. I remember saying, you're a taker, you take other people's money and you take their time (meaning mine!!!!)
tough times - mine would even admit he was selfish. like it was normal. just like saying 'I have blue eyes' He just accepted that it was what he was and didn't seem to want to change it. Don't get me wrong! He was (is?) an amazing guy! Big heart. A sweetie but just so self centred. I used to get angry at him coz he'd always push the line. As in he had so much freedom but always pushed it that one bit further which usually effected ME. Meant I missed out. He even said to me once ' I know I push the line but don't know why?' it's like he KNOWS these things but just doesn't have the self control to reign himself in. But in saying that, he gets himself into situations so deep so fast and then hasn't the balls to stand up, be a man and get himself out.
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Any of us have personality disorder, nobody is without some issues, but exists medical scale how far someone personality is out of normal. Means that exists mark and everyone below it haven't pathological personality disorder. Also exists degrees of pathological PD's from mild to severe.
Point is that people with PD's hard to discover by medical institutions, because many of PD's thinks that they are normal. Only those who realize that they have issues and seek for help find out that they have PD.
Another thing is that medical pros can't for sure diagnose PD without family members.
Anyway 10 % of general population have some PD ! Imagine how much is undetectable ! Go figure !
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I don't believe that Your wife have dissociative depersonalization disorder, it is so VERY, VERY rare by all statistics. I am almost 100 % sure that she is in MLC. My wife had several dissociative episodes in February this year when we have some clashes. MLCers are in the fog and severe depressions in long therm can bring them to dissociate.
Take look at THIS, read whole page and at bottom You will find very interesting stuff. (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_depression.html)
Thank you.
I'm not sure either way, but I will say this...I have seen depressive episodes the whole time I've known her. They were never targeted at me. This last episode included alot of cutting "just to feel something". She is acting as if in a movie...going through the motions and not really living. Whether it is DPD or MLC there's not a whole lot I can do until SHE wants help. So I just do my best with our kids and I. Very strange watching someone that shows zero emotions....
Edit - Fix quote opening quote html has no /
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I don't believe that Your wife have dissociative depersonalization disorder, it is so VERY, VERY rare by all statistics. I am almost 100 % sure that she is in MLC. My wife had several dissociative episodes in February this year when we have some clashes. MLCers are in the fog and severe depressions in long therm can bring them to dissociate.
Take look at THIS, read whole page and at bottom You will find very interesting stuff. (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_depression.html)
Thank you.
I'm not sure either way, but I will say this...I have seen depressive episodes the whole time I've known her. They were never targeted at me. This last episode included alot of cutting "just to feel something". She is acting as if in a movie...going through the motions and not really living. Whether it is DPD or MLC there's not a whole lot I can do until SHE wants help. So I just do my best with our kids and I. Very strange watching someone that shows zero emotions....
Edit - Fix quote opening quote html has no /
Comparing Your case with mine, I see same. Your W obviously had issues from childhood, FFO issues. She was prone to be depressive all the time. But sudden changes in personality always means MLC IMHO. She is in MLC because what I mention up. I am almost 100 % sure that any MLCer in replay knows that is something terible wrong with him, also in case that we can bring them to medical care shrinks will find a lot stuff in them which will point on variety of psycho disorders of any kind...
Keep faith bro, be lighthouse for Your family.
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I'm curious about a few things:
1. If replay starts long before BD, why do we say that replay averges 2 years +?
2. What signs/symptoms would suggest replay prior to the OW/OM being around?
3. Does the narcissism get worse futher along in the tunnel?
Thanks again for this topic; I am learning a lot.
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Thinking back to my sitch, 2010 H starts business, more and more time devoted to it, 2010 Xmas h was very frosty (it was a crappy Xmas with my family but he really snapped at me and was mean, I was very ill with a cough and cold and I was breast feeding a baby poorly with a terrible cough and cold too!). Then throughout 2011 he was simply extracting himself from the family, increasingly late nights at meetings in London with his new colleagues, spending our money. Then hints at affair in early 2012, mean mean things said and finally EA and PA too I think until BD2 in March and then BD3 in May and he left, sort of!!! So then the replay behaviour goes off the scale ... Skinny jeans, white trainers and a silly trendy white watch! Said he was selling his business for 50 million!!! My therapist asked if he was bipolar.
So it's happening before BD but we are confused and inane cases suffering with depression because we feel our spouses pulling away and behaving in strange ways, saying odd things.
Is this similar to most of us? It's all so difficult.
What I find hardest is the lack of overt signs of depression, before he left he said things that reflect that but he was running to his new work 'family' which includes the young alienator. Now he appears more settled and happy. Everyone in his family seems terrifically fooled by his mask of successful businessman who has had to make a very tough decision.
I guess I just wait and see.
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Albatross & Anjae
I do go back and forth about this all the time. I guess we all do. Thanks for the input
I've experienced a lot with w over the years but this takes the cake. I figure I'm at 2 years of replay now with no end in sight. So I march on with the kids. I have left the door unlocked....
I'm glad someone trusts the process...some days are better than others.
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I'm curious about a few things:
1. If replay starts long before BD, why do we say that replay averges 2 years +?
2. What signs/symptoms would suggest replay prior to the OW/OM being around?
3. Does the narcissism get worse futher along in the tunnel?
Thanks again for this topic; I am learning a lot.
1. BD IMO is when MLCer left home or LBS find out EA and MLCer left home or stay. Anyway bomb drop is like name said catastrophic event for LBS, so LBS must spot that :) All other before bomb drop MLCers can hide very well and LBS can spot beginning of replay or not. In my case I spot beginning of replay because was so obvious for me. She go into depression after her birthday and wont celebrate New Year, we stay home alone and watch TV, we kiss each other like brother and sister and she start to cry. I ask she why she crying ? She refuse talk about, silent no answer.
2. Symptoms are start to annihilate self from wold, covert depression. And start to detach emotionally in my case from spouse. Shadow become so powerful that they cannot ignore it anymore, so MLCer turn inward to protect self from shadow, they know that something very wrong with them.
3. Narcissism escalate when MLCer get sky high in relation with alienator. EA build in them adrenalin, hormones, they are infatuated. After they realize that no any future for their EA or (and) EA losing power in dynamics their narcissism start to diminish.
Nobody mention that they become also hedonists. Doing only things which make them happy.
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Another thing is that medical pros can't for sure diagnose PD without family members.
Anyway 10 % of general population have some PD ! Imagine how much is undetectable ! Go figure !
I know. Even with family members help it is difficult to diagnose a PD. Or some levels of a personalty disorder. For Bipolar (a mood disorder) on average it takes 10 years to get a correct diagnose.
Not sure if 10% of the population has PD... would have check my neuroscience classes but currently I don't have access to my computer files.
3. Narcissism escalate when MLCer get sky high in relation with alienator. EA build in them adrenalin, hormones, they are infatuated. After they realize that no any future for their EA or (and) EA losing power in dynamics their narcissism start to diminish.
Not all MLCers narcissism star to diminish when the high of the affair lowers. The ones, like Mr J, that have another source of narcissism and constant high don't have their narcissism diminish because the affair is slowing down or ends. But for many MLCers the big high is the affair.
Nobody mention that they become also hedonists. Doing only things which make them happy.
I think it has been mentioned before on the board that they become hedonists. But I would not say the only do things who make them happy. They do things who provide a high and a blast. Happy is kind of a remote thing for an MLCer...
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1. STAGE: Can't stand anymore current life. Person thinks that losing sanity. Self and persona become separated. Persona become true mask, artificial, unreal. That is IMO beginning of replay. Means Self still maintain relationship with world over persona but it is phoney. MLCer now go inward and disconnect from world. MLCer still operate in RL but in minimum. He, she going into covert depression, escape from real life. In my case, she start to refuse touching hugging, and closeness, but we still have sex, that was totally phoney from her side, just for hiding from me her problem - alibi.
2. STAGE: MLC-er start to regress in time and go to Youth in reversal order from present to past, revind life in time when they was happy ! They stuck then in teenage age. Wanna live new life, that is the reason why is this stage called REPLAY. Also they sink into depression gradually because of shadow surface so closer and closer. Then they escape from home, in my case she look "for drugs" to escape from shadow, being on places where surrounding make her happy narcissistic supply = hedonism, ego centrism. Wanna be in places where people will compliment them, on that way they ego rise and they "feel better" escape from depression. Fantasy world. Doing all what make "them happy." But hat is just desperate trying. She try to be out of hose and family as much as it is possible.
3. STAGE: Nothing of that can help them. They are desperate, lonely - PARADOX, they cut of self from life and later they will say that their life sux and spouse sux and they was SO LONELY - come on ! So, they need romance, and they start to seek for alienator. In this phase they seek and find alienator and start to build EA. Hormones and adrenalin kicks in and they find quick fix for problems. Ego start to rise. Alienator is under the wings.
4. STAGE: They finally reach point where is impossible to maintain two lifes and this is BOMB DROP, they ego rech sky high ! In my case she refuse sex and then I become suspicious about EA. I found internet alienartor. How huge their fantasy is that my W in their convo on FB they exchange more then 7000 lines 3 months ! Also she have notes on paper where she write totally different about them. How she imagine their convo, fantasy about fantasy. :P
5. STAGE: End of replay begin when MLCer finally get is that will be nothing from his fantasy world, no more narcissistic supply which give them antidote from depression.
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Albatross this shows me "simply" that myH is at stage 5....maybe into acceptance. I dont know that it means he is done ?? I hope he has completed all the steps and doesn't go back again :(
Replay is hard and a long process. I will continue as I have been a be the person I have grown into. In God 's hands.
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These stages may not always go in this order.
This may have been the order for your MLC'er but others may proceed in a different order.
And my belief is that they may repeat some of these stages after bomb drop too.
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It's very interesting to see the stages. I think my H is hovering back n forth between stages 4 n 5 . I'm hoping to see stage 5 completed before I have to take out a Zimmer frame!!!
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I am almost 1yr since BD.i know my H was with alienator for 1yr previous. He now states that he does not want to keep her a secret anymore. But everyone knows about her. He says I just don't get that he wants to be with her. How do I know if he has reached liminality or this awakening and this is really what he wants. I see him about 1time a week for a few minutes. She is 31 yrs and he is 59 yrs. I still think she is after what she can get, but he says no
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These stages may not always go in this order.
This may have been the order for your MLC'er but others may proceed in a different order.
And my belief is that they may repeat some of these stages after bomb drop too.
Totally agree. This is stages which my wife going trough. I hope that she hit liminality because she show no more monster. Maybe she will cycle back, I will see.
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I am almost 1yr since BD.i know my H was with alienator for 1yr previous. He now states that he does not want to keep her a secret anymore. But everyone knows about her. He says I just don't get that he wants to be with her. How do I know if he has reached liminality or this awakening and this is really what he wants. I see him about 1time a week for a few minutes. She is 31 yrs and he is 59 yrs. I still think she is after what she can get, but he says no
When his monster diminish and vanish he is ready for liminality. But he can be in limbo some time... and with alienator just because of inertia.
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Dreamer, I think they really believe 'its real' at the time, in replay - certainly the case in my situation.
My H is in stage 4 and its happened as Albatross has described.
I think it started end 2010. Subtle withdrawing/angry comments/outbursts throughout summer 2011 and started staying at work late, heavy drinking, staying out end of 2011. So stage 2, 2011. Stage 3 starts Dec 2011 with EA throughout early 2012 (noticed unusual phone activity). Big withdrawal 2012. Fairly certain PA from August 2012 - big BD Feb 2013.
So my H has been in the PA for over a year. No sign of trouble in paradise yet, but would I know about it if there was?!!!
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These stages may not always go in this order.
This may have been the order for your MLC'er but others may proceed in a different order.
And my belief is that they may repeat some of these stages after bomb drop too.
Totally agree. This is stages which my wife going trough. I hope that she hit liminality because she show no more monster. Maybe she will cycle back, I will see.
Albatross, how long has your wife not shown monster for?
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These stages may not always go in this order.
This may have been the order for your MLC'er but others may proceed in a different order.
And my belief is that they may repeat some of these stages after bomb drop too.
Totally agree. This is stages which my wife going trough. I hope that she hit liminality because she show no more monster. Maybe she will cycle back, I will see.
Albatross, how long has your wife not shown monster for?
No monster over month. And generally she is a lot different - better then before.
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Albatross,
Thank you. Generally, my H is alot better than before, he doesn't monster as much and if he does its less 'severe' - but still in relationship with OW.
I haven't seen your story so I do not know, is your wife still in Ea/PA?
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Albatross,
My H was here today. Says he was here to see our grd dtr. Seems angry but not monstering at me. Still with OW. Says he wants to come and take our grd dtr to school on the days I work. She lives with us. I am not sure if he is just being polite or he is trying to keep connection. OW has 2 small children and I have told him that if that is the new life he wants he needs to focus on them. I am confused at the stages as sometimes I think I have him where he is, but then he throws a wrench in the works. Does the OW have to be gone for awakening? Do you know?
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Albatross,
My H was here today. Says he was here to see our grd dtr. Seems angry but not monstering at me. Still with OW. Says he wants to come and take our grd dtr to school on the days I work. She lives with us. I am not sure if he is just being polite or he is trying to keep connection. OW has 2 small children and I have told him that if that is the new life he wants he needs to focus on them. I am confused at the stages as sometimes I think I have him where he is, but then he throws a wrench in the works. Does the OW have to be gone for awakening? Do you know?
Awakening as far I learn is piont of MLCer journey whe MLCer awake from trance, fantasy, movie, whatever he prefer and realize reality. Then he terrified what he done. Like waking up after drinking all night long.
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I would like to know what exactly is liminality? I have read RCR article, but I don't really understand, and how does it manifest itself? Also, Monster, my h is not generally angry, I am not sure if I see Monster. Does Monster appear when he says he does not know if he wants to be with me, when he says 50/50 for decision, when he can't decide, when he looks at me like I'm a bug? He does not say mean things to me EVER, or does not blame me, but does bring up parts of our marriage as being problematic?
I have difficulty placing him in his journey, possibly between stages 4 and 5 (though I know that each person is different). my fear is that he may not be in MLC at all, but just does not love me anymore, how do I know the difference? Sometimes, it is so apparent it is MLC, and sometimes, I just think he want another life...
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I would like to know what exactly is liminality? I have read RCR article, but I don't really understand, and how does it manifest itself? Also, Monster, my h is not generally angry, I am not sure if I see Monster. Does Monster appear when he says he does not know if he wants to be with me, when he says 50/50 for decision, when he can't decide, when he looks at me like I'm a bug? He does not say mean things to me EVER, or does not blame me, but does bring up parts of our marriage as being problematic?
I have difficulty placing him in his journey, possibly between stages 4 and 5 (though I know that each person is different). my fear is that he may not be in MLC at all, but just does not love me anymore, how do I know the difference? Sometimes, it is so apparent it is MLC, and sometimes, I just think he want another life...
1. Does his personality change DRAMATICALLY in last several years ? Do You feel that he is not himself ? Possessed by aliens ? If answer YES, than he is MLC.
2. Do You love normal him before MLC ? If Yes, then You should wait that he come from his journey and work on self. Love self. Cheers.
How someone who is in deep depression can love anyone ? They aren't capable to love self in such condition, if they can't love self, then they can't love anyone. They are just like "drug addicts", "alcoholics". I am living with one and I am very empathic person, I feel her suffering. But thanks God I am detached, let go her, surrender to God will, accept situation what it is.
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Hi, yes, his personality did change, but gradually. I thought it was only due to work pressures, recession in Ireland, family problems.
I love him now, as I loved him then, so I am waiting....thank you Albatross, very insightful!
I would love if he came back to live at home to finish his journey in peace...I hate that he lives with his mother (no OW anymore)
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Don't know if her 'personality' changed as much as her craving for a different life with a different guy
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Hi, yes, his personality did change, but gradually. I thought it was only due to work pressures, recession in Ireland, family problems.
I love him now, as I loved him then, so I am waiting....thank you Albatross, very insightful!
I would love if he came back to live at home to finish his journey in peace...I hate that he lives with his mother (no OW anymore)
His personality change gradually, sure, because they hiding changes from everyone. But when they can't keep up like that, then they disclosure self.
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For me is fascinating how my W does not even see me. Like I am ghost. She come home and talking only about self. What happens to her. No any question about me. It is truly fascinating, like doing it on the purpose.
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That is interesting. My h always asks how I am, how is work, but no more...sometimes in his eyes I see him, sometimes, I have no idea! Sometimes he is very kind, sometimes he says something that is so hurtful and I seriously believe he does not register how inappropriate and mean it is...and I tend to feed that, to my demise...I have to stop.
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My husband never asks anything about us...he only talks about himself if you ask direct questions. He really doesn't talk much. He listens though.
We have had some moments of clarity where he does ask questions. But they have been short lived.
It is weird. I often wonder how he can go an entire week or more and not communicate or see his children (and me) then come spend time with us and not ask questions or talk. It is very bizarre. And then he has a texting relationship with us and it is mostly sending pictures or tweets to the children or articles or asking to go shopping. Nothing really about their lives. Very superficial. Like he can't handle reality.
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It is bizarre indeed. I can't understand also the days n days of not communicating and then one of the children says he's asked to meet them for a coffee! Maybe they are feeling too much guilt!
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I have so little contact with mine I have no idea where she's at. I figure from what I know now, the emotion part of her affair probably started about 6 - 8 months prior to BD, which would have put it at late fall 2010, BD end of July 2011. She only sees the kids about twice a month tops, but they say it's like her past life never happened.
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Such an interesting thread. Love it, but got lost at Reply #3 ;)
Wish I was a little bit brighter! ???
Also wish there was an MLC translator regarding shadows and ego, and all that stuff. I read it, think I get it, then :o, right out the window! Did the same reading RCRs too.
I will keep trying.
Can make sense of some of the discussions following, so maybe need to go back and read #3 again.......and again.....and ;)
Fantastic Albatross. Thank you. I'm getting some of it, and find it fascinating.
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I would like to know what exactly is liminality? I have read RCR article, but I don't really understand, and how does it manifest itself? Also, Monster, my h is not generally angry, I am not sure if I see Monster. Does Monster appear when he says he does not know if he wants to be with me, when he says 50/50 for decision, when he can't decide, when he looks at me like I'm a bug? He does not say mean things to me EVER, or does not blame me, but does bring up parts of our marriage as being problematic?
Not all MLCers show monster. Wallowers many times don't, or their is a pretty tamed monster compared to Replayers one, especially High Replayers. Even some Replayers don't show much monster.
Their personality changes through a period of time and for some of it the LBS may not notice a thing, or, in hindsight, we may realise that small things were there but, at the time, we saw nothing. Still, for many of us a point before BD comes when we start to personality changes.
Liminality is that period between Replay (the high maniac, or less maniac ego driven part of MLC, that tends to be the longer one) and Rebirth. Liminality is totally overt depression, it follows rock bottom. It is not a nice place to be and it is extremely painful to cross it until one starts to be in Rebirth. Rebirth is also painful but it is different.
Mine has been in stage for for over 7 years and BD was nearly 7 years ago. I seriously start to doubt he ever leaves stage 4 before he is a very old man... Mine has an addiction far worse than OW, "fame". There can be nothing more ego stroking than being "famous" (even if only on a certain world) and worst for a person in MLC. Liminality will take forever to arrive to mine.
When it will, if it will, it will not be pretty to watch. He has done too much damage so maybe he is just protecting himself by remaining in Replay. That way he is not forced to look at the gigantic mess he made and at all the pain he caused.
Better to keep clubbing, being the know DJ and drunk. Can't really blame. I'm not certain I would want to deal with what he will have to deal if he ever reaches Liminality.
Of course he can only blame himself since it were his MLC endless Replay actions that make it harder and harder for him so face things. The more he runs, the more damage he causes, the more he has to run.
The universe may not be big enough for mine to keep running... ::) ::) ::)
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Self-love is the love of oneself.
In 1956 psychologist and social philosopher Erich Fromm proposed that loving oneself is different from being arrogant, conceited or egocentric. He proposed that loving oneself means caring about oneself, taking responsibility for oneself, respecting oneself, and knowing oneself (e.g. being realistic and honest about one's strengths and weaknesses). He proposed, further, that in order to be able to truly love another person, a person needs first to love oneself in this way.
Nothing what should be add on this.
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Hi Anjea, thank you for your response. I fear too that my H has done too much damage, and that I've done too much damage by trying to fix this, and telling him lots of stuff, sometimes not too kind! And he will never come home. He's not interested right now,, he has said so...
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My dear, when his crisis is over he will not recall most, or anything, of what you have told him. Don't worry about what you have said. It is done.
Your BD was less than one year ago. For most MLCs that is a very short time. The reason he is not interested is not because you said some less nice things, it is because he is having a MLC.
All MLCers say they will never come home. Most do. Or would if the LBS took them back.
Now Albatross, if only one manage to let our MLCers know that all it is required is that they love themselves... ::) ::) ::) Sadly it does not seem to be easy to make them get such a simple thing.
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They have no love for themselves so they cant love anyone else or anything else.
So when they don't feel anything for their children or LBS, and even ignore their once loved pets, then they can't love OW/OM either, confirming the infatuation, and feeding their addiction? Love and OW/OM have nothing to do with each other.
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They have no love for themselves so they cant love anyone else or anything else.
So when they don't feel anything for their children or LBS, and even ignore their once loved pets, then they can't love OW/OM either, confirming the infatuation, and feeding their addiction? Love and OW/OM have nothing to do with each other.
Exactly.
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Anjae, thanx for that, I'm really despairing with him, though I told him yesterday I wasn't part of his weird fantasy life anymore and I was now looking after myself. And hoped he'd come to his senses before it was too late, of course, no reply! This was after I was kindly told I didn't do it for him anymore, didn't find me attractive, even though I looked great???? Mad stuff! And after 3 guys at a party hit on me, in front of him! Including a very gay friend of mind who said he was now going straight when I walked in. And total non reaction from H. I would have hit the roof if it was the otherway around. Nice to get the compliments, but truly am not interested! That hurt me to say the least.
Albatross, your posts are really interesting and give good for thought! And Snowdrop, it's nice to read your logical explanation of the ow none sense, nonetheless they are attracted to them, not us, very hard.
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This was after I was kindly told I didn't do it for him anymore, didn't find me attractive, even though I looked great?
That's BS. It's either projection or him trying to make you feel unattractive and break your self esteem so that you don't get too flirty with others... ;)
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That's BS. It's either projection or him trying to make you feel unattractive and break your self esteem so that you don't get too flirty with others... ;)
I agree with Booboo - they are trying to keep everything/everyone in the same place as before, PG.
So when they don't feel anything for their children or LBS, and even ignore their once loved pets, then they can't love OW/OM either, confirming the infatuation, and feeding their addiction? Love and OW/OM have nothing to do with each other.
I love your reasoning, Snowdrop. I am going to add that to my list of things I read daily ;)
xxx
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It's quite obvious really...If they are incapable of feeling the unconditional love they have for their own children how on earth can they feel any love of any kind?
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It's quite obvious really...If they are incapable of feeling the unconditional love they have for their own children how on earth can they feel any love of any kind?
They can't, they are mess and broken. Zombies which live in world of fantasy.
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My wife and my self was really SOULMATES. That is one thing more which make me all of this even more hard. We live wonderful life, both work, have nice flat which we decorate and do all by our self. We have two beautiful kids. Daughter 19 and son 15. Everything was wonderful.
Anyway in year 2007 my wife enter in MLC, I know that preciously. I watch her, talk to her about everything when she was in first stage of MLC. She try to do million things, but wont work obviously. She gradually sink every day after day, after day. Become more depressed, angrier and angrier. In such long time she reflect on me, so, I even don't notice go after her into depression to. She enter in escape and avoid at fall of year 2011. Then she start to run away from home when ever she can... I knew what is all about. And let her go. When she refuse sex that was alarm that she have EA. And we start to talk.
Why I am telling this ? Because MLC for her was imminent. Whatever we did or she did, she will hit anyway MLC. Point is that I also become fed up about everything and into depression to and I was ready to divorce... how I felt in that moment and ratio tells me that I actually waiting for her since 2007 and how much I should wait for her ? After huge fights, I said, now it is enough, I wanna divorce ! Later searching my heart and soul, rewind all our life together, my heart can't do it ! So, I decide to be eternally alone or with her after end of that MLC crap. But it is up to her, we as couple are in her hands and in God's hands.
Point is that LOVE means EVERYTHING to me, whole my life I put in our love. That was only my goal in my life ! Live with my soulmate and have kids, happy family. And we was that.
But MLCer can't love self, how can she love me, kids ? What is difference between me and she ? I am sane spouse, she is "insane", not accountable...
Anyway in case that I am in the MLC and she is LBS, I am SURE she will wait for me...
LOVE YOU KIDDO ! :'( :'( :'(
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BooBoo ClareBear, thanks for that. I had actualy made a real effort to look presentable, even took out the polyfilla and war paint! Yes, possibly projection, because he is not really looking after himself at the moment, usually unshaven and very casually dressed. Well, he did not make me feel too awful, because if my adorable gay friend can turn, then someone will want me! Joke!!!
Albatross, I have a question: he says he feels nothing, but he says he loves and misses the children, but me, does not miss at all, or only sometimes!? Is that also a possibility if they are zombies (love that!) and a total mess?
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BooBoo ClareBear, thanks for that. I had actualy made a real effort to look presentable, even took out the polyfilla and war paint! Yes, possibly projection, because he is not really looking after himself at the moment, usually unshaven and very casually dressed. Well, he did not make me feel too awful, because if my adorable gay friend can turn, then someone will want me! Joke!!!
Albatross, I have a question: he says he feels nothing, but he says he loves and misses the children, but me, does not miss at all, or only sometimes!? Is that also a possibility if they are zombies (love that!) and a total mess?
They have guilt. He lies that he love kids, it is just verbal expression, he have to prove then his love. MLCers lie to self and others. Of course that You are guilty for his current misery... pure projection, so "he don't feel" for You nothing. It is much easier blame spouse... They are empty. Words of my W.
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PG - I would really pay no attention to alot of what he says - for your own protection. Just an example - my H said the extent of his feelings for me were that he 'would not want me to die' - total rubbish. I did actually laugh at this.
They do talk nonsense - nothing makes sense and alot of the time they don't even remember it afterwards!!!!
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Panda, how kind of him! I understand why you would laugh, how utterly ludicrous! Yes, I am applying the 100% don't believe rule more and more, as it does make me fee safer.
Albatross, OK, that makes sense, maybe he has to think he loves them and them only. I suppose that is proven by the fact he can spend a long time not seeing them..I could not do that. But each time I speak with him, he says he wants to see them...somewhere, he must have love for them? And if he really did not love them, then he would not try to see them. he told my S15 that he wants to see more of him, and that he misses out D10 so much (she refuses to go see him, so maybe he is reacting to her rejection of him?) he is about to receive more rejection, as D18 is going to tell him what she really thinks of him this weekend, and I've emailed him to say I was no longer interested in focusing on him and his fantasy life, now focusing on me and the children. Will hope he comes to his senses before it's too late. BTW, I got NO reply to that!
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PateinceGalore~ don't think that your H did not notice how you looked or that others were "noticing and commenting" He may not of said anything BUT if he was in any type of clarity he saw and noticed. Some are very much "internal thinkers" and never tell you.
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REPLAY - in RCRs documents she states that Replay cannot progress until the MLCer thinks the relationship/marriage is over (BD). Does this mean if someone spent a considerable amount of time in Replay before BD, that time spent counts? Do they process anything during this time?
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REPLAY - in RCRs documents she states that Replay cannot progress until the MLCer thinks the relationship/marriage is over (BD). Does this mean if someone spent a considerable amount of time in Replay before BD, that time spent counts? Do they process anything during this time?
LOL Panda - our brains operate similarly. Great question!
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REPLAY - in RCRs documents she states that Replay cannot progress until the MLCer thinks the relationship/marriage is over (BD). Does this mean if someone spent a considerable amount of time in Replay before BD, that time spent counts? Do they process anything during this time?
LOL Panda - our brains operate similarly. Great question!
I have wondered this also. However, my H still does not want the marriage to be over ???
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Thank you 31andcounting! I hope he did, I really had made an effort!
To echo Seearching4answers and Panda: If you let your H know you are standing, that means the marriage is not over for you and they know that, so how do they progress? By us moving aside?
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REPLAY - in RCRs documents she states that Replay cannot progress until the MLCer thinks the relationship/marriage is over (BD). Does this mean if someone spent a considerable amount of time in Replay before BD, that time spent counts? Do they process anything during this time?
Counts towards what?
Who can have the longest time mlcer?
Its not like after a certain amount of time you get out of jail for free.
It might be a lifetime sentence.
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REPLAY - in RCRs documents she states that Replay cannot progress until the MLCer thinks the relationship/marriage is over (BD). Does this mean if someone spent a considerable amount of time in Replay before BD, that time spent counts? Do they process anything during this time?
Counts towards what?
Who can have the longest time mlcer?
OP - I hope I don't win that award :D
What I mean is, in Replay prior to BD, are they in the tunnel (I thought so), or is there only progression after BD, when they think the marriage is over. Does that make sense?
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REPLAY - in RCRs documents she states that Replay cannot progress until the MLCer thinks the relationship/marriage is over (BD). Does this mean if someone spent a considerable amount of time in Replay before BD, that time spent counts? Do they process anything during this time?
Counts towards what?
Who can have the longest time mlcer?
OP - I hope I don't win that award :D
What I mean is, in Replay prior to BD, are they in the tunnel (I thought so), or is there only progression after BD, when they think the marriage is over. Does that make sense?
Yes they are in the tunnel, but there is all sorts of places that they can get stuck or make a wrong turn and go down a cheese less portion.
So I think that was RCR's point about what she wrote.
Sometimes to progress things must look like they are getting worse.
As we mentioned earlier in this thread replay and the crisis itself normally starts before bomb drop.
Its just when that happens we really get the idea that something is wrong!
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Thanks OP - I think my H went to OW simply because he tried everything else (ie new sports car, hobbies, drinking, old friends, new MLC friends, clubbing, camping etc) and since that didn't work he came to the conclusion it was ME.
I am not sure there are many more avenues he can explore, unless of course, another OW.
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I think I remember reading something that RCR wrote regarding the time before BD (DGU? If I didn't dream it, I'm sure you could find it).
I think she stated that the time before BD isn't progressive. I guess meaning that the time prior to BD - the MLCer has not yet moved forward in the tunnel.
Time is counted after BD. I remember early on this being very important to me. Trying to figure out how long my sentence was. :o :o :o
Counts towards what?
Who can have the longest time mlcer?
I love OP's comment here.
He is right.
As time progresses, and the MLCer gets "worse" - the LBS will stop (should stop?) looking at the timeline...and accept it for what it is.
I thought because my ExH had spent a long time getting to the point where he walked (ran) out the door - it meant that some (much?) of his Replay time was spent prior to BD. Well, here it is 3+ years later and from all appearances he stays firmly entrenched in Replay. (OW#3)
Mine was a Wallower. He took FOREVER to do anything. (Still does).
I do believe the high energy MLCers burn out quicker (quick, being a relative term) - but can then spend more time in Depression and Withdrawal. Or....get some more energy and find a new OW.
This is an interesting thread......and I continue to read all the new posts. But, quite honestly, the watched pot ain't going to boil anytime soon. (Believe me...I know this).
I also believe that 2 years is a very short Replay stage.
Limitless
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Limitless, you scare me! I am in month 9, and I have just been told he wants space, not ready to reconcile that I should let him go, etc...I thought he's be home by Christmas, 2013, not 2023! Help!
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Limitless, you scare me! I am in month 9, and I have just been told he wants space, not ready to reconcile that I should let him go, etc...I thought he's be home by Christmas, 2013, not 2023! Help!
Sorry. I don't mean to scare you.
I can only speak regarding my MLCer. He is slow...slow.
That is not necessarily true for others....so don't be scared.
My girlfriend used to tell me that he'd be home by Christmas. I guess I just never asked "what year?"
There are LBS on this site with reconnecting spouses.....I don't mean to be doom and gloom.
Sorry....don't let me scare you.
Limitless
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Thanks Limitless - thats very helpful. I will try and have a look for the thread you mention.
The thing is, I have mentioned this before on my thread- I had all sorts of comments made to me back in 2011 which I have taken for a BD also. After this, he went off on all these activities, new purchases etc - I just don't know when his particular 'tunnel journey' started. I know I should not be thinking about it, but I am trying to timeline aswell. He was certainly not as bad then as he is now, but monster has definately subsided.
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I was kidding Limitless, I was not scared...truly...but my H also is a slow mover, in everything, procrastinated over which type of paint to get for a room....would drive me to distraction. So if paint can be slow to choose, God help me with this!
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Counts towards what?
Who can have the longest time mlcer?
I'm not looking for a medal or a trophy but how does 30 years sound. ;D ;D ;D
This one isn't MLC though,
If you folks had really decent people for Husbands or Wives before this BD?.. I really have no idea what that loss has to be like.
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REPLAY starts when MLCer become disconnected from the WORLD, and start to run from own shadow. How can do it ? Only if FOG exists, fantasy world, he enter into tunnel. That point in MLCer path for majority LBS-es is still undetectable.
What majority LBS must recognize is bomb drop. It is literally BOOOOM !
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Limitless, you scare me! I am in month 9, and I have just been told he wants space, not ready to reconcile that I should let him go, etc...I thought he's be home by Christmas, 2013, not 2023! Help!
Are you familiar with the Stockdale principle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stockdale
All of the POWs that had dates in mind died! See above.
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Stockdale then added:
This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."[12]
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REPLAY starts when MLCer become disconnected from the WORLD, and start to run from own shadow. How can do it ? Only if FOG exists, fantasy world, he enter into tunnel. That point in MLCer path for majority LBS-es is still undetectable.
What majority LBS must recognize is bomb drop. It is literally BOOOOM !
I guess I can safely assume that my H is in the tunnel; he made this comment recently regarding when he spends time with OW "it is a vacation from reality" :o
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REPLAY starts when MLCer become disconnected from the WORLD, and start to run from own shadow. How can do it ? Only if FOG exists, fantasy world, he enter into tunnel. That point in MLCer path for majority LBS-es is still undetectable.
What majority LBS must recognize is bomb drop. It is literally BOOOOM !
I guess I can safely assume that my H is in the tunnel; he made this comment recently regarding when he spends time with OW "it is a vacation from reality" :o
Indeed, how they can otherwise being young again ? Only in the fantasy world. IMHO they live actually in reality but modified it in their heads like they wanna so. They act as teenagers they have cloths which is not suitable for their age, they living "life" by own rules.
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This was after I was kindly told I didn't do it for him anymore, didn't find me attractive, even though I looked great? Mad stuff!
I'm sure you looked fab and he thought that too, but who cares what he thought. It might have hurt that he didn't notice, but don't look fab for him and look for a reaction to see if he notices, or sees "what he is missing", look fab for YOU ;)
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It's quite obvious really...If they are incapable of feeling the unconditional love they have for their own children how on earth can they feel any love of any kind?
Guess I'm slow, as while I believed and thought that deep down, it clicked when I saw it written, not so obvious to me, I guess ;)
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Snowdrop, yes from now on , for me, and if he notices, well he'll realise maybe what he is missing!
InIt and OP, I will stop looking for an end date! I did 3 months, then 6, then said I would not go past 9 months, and now I think, maybe I'll last up to a year...in fact from talking with him and observing how little changed between BD and now (nearly 9 months), I cannot possibly expect anything between now and Christmas (3 months) so I shall stay in my little space, no dates!
Thank you for the Stockdale link.
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PG
Remember him poking out of your stocking.....but Christmas of which year?
If replay is at least 2 yrs, and more, and there's a ton of things to do once that is over, thats a long time. For some, I guess it still never happens. Sad eh?
Don't leave him a turkey dinner warming in the oven ;)
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Hey..I'm getting ready with that "well placed" turkey baster full of mashed potatoes..and a "Merry Christmas" card from the Troopers! ;D ;D
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Turkey?? He'll be lucky if he gets any stuffing! sadly, he won't be part of the celebrations this year. I don't do "playing happy families", we either are or we are not. Too traumatic for the children and I find it impossible. I can see him on my own, but any family setting is too much for my heart and my sanity. It usually ends badly, and the children are very uncomfortable...
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I've already sorted our Xmas out. Me and the children with my side of the family. H is free to do whatever he wants..... I doubt he has even thought that far ahead yet!
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Hey..I'm getting ready with that "well placed" turkey baster full of mashed potatoes..and a "Merry Christmas" card from the Troopers!
InIt - I nearly choked on my tea. Quick flash in my mind, Christmas Day, table laid, and in comes InIt, with a Christmaas greeting.......
"Do I have the PERFECT gift for YOU!!" "M-E-R-R-R-R-R-R-Y C-H-R-I-S-T-M-A-A-A-A-S-S-S-S-S-S-S"
Is there room in that baster of yours for some stuffing?
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For us, I hope H is far, far away up north somewhere, trying to find Santa.
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SURE !!!How about some sqaush and an uncooked pumpkin or two??? ;D ;D ;D Stem side first for the pumpkins ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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SURE !!!How about some sqaush and an uncooked pumpkin or two??? Stem side first for the pumpkins
I'm crying now. Hope you manage to post it on youtube for us all to share in the merriment! ;D ;D ;D
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Turkey?? He'll be lucky if he gets any stuffing! sadly, he won't be part of the celebrations this year. I don't do "playing happy families", we either are or we are not. Too traumatic for the children and I find it impossible. I can see him on my own, but any family setting is too much for my heart and my sanity. It usually ends badly, and the children are very uncomfortable...
Listen everybody it's not too early to work on gaining some strength to get through these holidays... for the people who are going through this for the FIRST TIME it's NOT easy and IT'S not pretty..BELIEVE ME NC IS THE WAY TO GO STARTING AS SOON AS YOU CAN!!
This is for everybody regardless of "standing" or whatever. If they are driving you nuts they will continue as long as you LET them.
I gotta go get ready for church
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(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/machine74/warninglabelHijacked.jpg)
;D
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GOT ME!
Good one Albatross ;D
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thanks Albatross for a fantastic thread! so much information here, thank you. I have been doing some reading on the psychological aspect of mens depression via Terence Real's book "I don't want to talk about it", as well as watching Brene Brown's TED talks on shame and vulnerability. It's actually heart breaking how so many men hide everything about their emotional life and learn how to hide it so well, they end up depressed. But as many of you know, mens depressions is rarely overt, it is typically covert, ie under cover. I don't know why but I find it all extremely sad that so many men walk around almost completely unable to function emotionally and lose themselves, all because we don't allow boys to have feelings and insist they hide their feelings and be "tough". breaks my heart. Little boys who are allowed to cry and express their feelings naturally will be men who are emotionally intelligent and will be far less at risk of falling into MLC. Unfortunately my H was not such a lucky boy, had a brutal childhood featuring alchoholics, little schooling, violence, and ended in care for a year. No wonder he wore a mask for all our married years, and I was the only one who got to see him without the mask. In the last year pre bday, the mask became his face, he often said he didn't know who he was anymore. The mask had overtaken his identity it seems. I struggle now to remember a time when the mask didn't dominate him.
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About loving self as prerogative loving others. Nothing in world, or in very rare cases, is black & white only. So, MLCers are capable to love but point is how much in present moment. So, if MLCer is under big shadow influence, his capability to love is small. Means in that moment they can love less. So, as they cycle their capability to love cycle. Sure if they are in moments of clarity they are capable to love is higher.
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I understand and agree.. but why don't they just leave us alone entirely? All they seem to want to do is try to hurt us? They get some kind of feed off of this.
I've heard of these vanishers that sounds like heaven right about now.
I cannot imagine the initial jolt it must give someone to come home to a note or missing clothes or an empty house when they thought things were just fine..but in some ways it may be kinder than the ones that keep trying to drag us back in with the DRAMA.
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Or when you hear that they just don't love you anymore and don't think they want a life with you (felt like I was a used sock), and that their life too a new direction (without ever informing you of wanting a new direction!) So totally unfair and he does not seem to acknowledge that fact. PG
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Or when you hear that they just don't love you anymore and don't think they want a life with you
I remember hearing that also... but you know what I said to myself then? I just don't buy it.
But boy I do now... and it's not a problem. You cannot MAKE someone love you no matter how you try.
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InIt, that's not hopeful at all! I don't want to buy it either, so I am glued to Albatross's thread, and try and see if H will eventually come back to me.
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Patience Galore:
We're all at different points in this journey.. I'm sorry I didn't mean to express there is no hope.. Replay is the longest from what I'm gathering.
Hope is always there..I've been in this three years and I've had enough.
Again I'm sorry I didn't mean to say anything discouraging.
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No worries, you did not, I was saying that tongue in cheek!
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WHEW! I thought I really stepped in it! ;D ;D :P
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Not at all, really!
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I'm hearing about a few LBSs who 'move on' after years of standing and understanding. This is what my dear friend Stayed said to me right at the beginning, most MLCer in her experience want to come back, it's just a question of whether there is an LBS to come back to. As LBSs we have the choice to stand, to understand, to learn, to focus on ourselves, to heal and then if we feel it is right, to move on. I can see in so many real life MLC situations, people who have met someone new or have decided the MLCers behaviour was too much and also people who have moved forward with the MLCer. The point is that ultimately it is our choice how we deal with this crisis from our point of view.
My brother had MLC and got through it after 4 years, he was back with his partner and three girls. He was a clinging boomerang, pretty nasty to my SiL. my attitude at the tome was throw him to the curb! Another friend's H left her with two kids, he was more of a boomerang, saw them but only because of kids. He wanted back after 3.5 years but only mentioned it 4.5 years later! She couldn't imagine ever being with him again so it didnt work out and they have each met someone new.
This thread has been so good to read and follow, thank you albatross. I am particularly thinly about the stock dale paradox, hope but living in reality, that's the key I reckon!
Hugs to you all.
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I agree the thread is excellent and gives much food for thought. Great to hear success stories... We need them as much as all the amazing tips to learn to truly let go and not cycle with them. MLC, I will never think it is for sad 50 year old balding men. Not a joke, a very harsh reality. Albatross gives great insights that compliment RCR and the posts on the forum. Some great people here. Pity the MLCers don't see the same.
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I will never think it is for sad 50 year old balding men
PG, where did you see my H? ;D Oh, gotcha, you said 50, no, he IS around 50, but looks more like 18 from a distance, and 75 close up! ;) Then again, you'd never know, as he isn't still enough to find out.
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So true Patience :)
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I will never think it is for sad 50 year old balding men
PG, where did you see my H? ;D Oh, gotcha, you said 50, no, he IS around 50, but looks more like 18 from a distance, and 75 close up! ;) Then again, you'd never know, as he isn't still enough to find out.
Hilarious! Well, let's hope they come back the same age they left.....thanks again Albatross, I love the thread!
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Albatross, please be so kind to start a new REPLAY thread. Thank you.
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I am so sorry, Albatross, please accept my apologies.
This is one of the BEST threads. Thank you.
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Albatross, please be so kind to start a new REPLAY thread. Thank you.
How can I resist to a lady ? :) New REPLAY thread (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3993.0).